You can tell the dog days of August are upon us when, Rush Limpballs can not restrain himself from yet another racist attack on the President.

I understand the desire to defelct from the insane clown posse the Tealiban is currently
offering up to the American public…

But seriously?

If this is what’s passing for Teapublican humor these days – someone needs to give you all the ‘hook’ & refund the cover charge!

Rush Limbaugh described Kraft's new Triple Double Oreo as a "bi-racial cookie" and an
"Or-Ba-Meo."

He said the cookie would have three chocolate wafers, white vanilla cream and chocolate
cream. He said, "It's actually a bi-racial cookie," adding, "It isn't gonna be long til it's gonna be called the Or-Ba-Meo or something like that."

He also used the term itself to mock Michelle Obama's campaign against childhood obesity, saying, "The food industry responds with 'Take this' and Kraft comes up with the Or-Ba-Meo."

This is not the first time Limbaugh has compared President Obama to an Oreo cookie. In a 2009 about food safety advocates, he said, "After that, they're gonna want the Oreos --might have to put off until Obama's out of office

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/17/rush-limbaugh-oreo-biracial-cookie_n_929672.html

Who specifically is playing the race card again?

Romney is such an idiot. Raising the Payroll Tax on Social Security does not help nor does raising the cap from $106,800 to make SS more viable. So putting more money into your bank account does not increase your bank account?? And this moron wants to be in charge of this country?? I thought he said he was a businessman and knew something about math.

Just about every leading economist says raising the cap above $106,800 would extend Social Security out at 100% of benefits for another 75 years. Raising the payroll tax (less popular) will also do that or a combination of the two. See the below site.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/08/17/297483/confronted-at-town-hall-romney-falsely-claims-raising-payroll-tax-cap-wouldnt-strengthen-social-security/

Perry’s bogus Job Creation rhetoric is now coming under the microscope. As I have written before Perry is trying to take credit for things he had no control over or in the case of his budget “smoke and mirrors” that makes him look good during the election cycle but will bite Texas in the butt in future years.

He used $6 Billion Dollars of the “Stimulus Money” to shore up a budget shortfall of his own making over 10 Years. He under funded Medicare by $5 Billion Dollars and moved the due dates on some other liabilities to the next budget cycle. Why? So he can falsely claim his is “Fiscally Responsible” – yeah, about as much as Bush was “Fiscally Responsible”.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/08/17/297556/report-texas-ranks-dead-last-in-total-job-creation-accounting-for-labor-force-growth/

“In fact, “Texas has done worse than the rest of the country since the peak of national unemployment in October 2009.” The unemployment rate in Texas has been steadily increasing throughout the recession, and went from 7.7 to 8.2 percent while the state was supposedly creating 40 percent of all the new jobs in the U.S”.

“How is this possible, since Texas has created over 126,000 jobs since the depths of the recession in February 2009? The fact of the matter is that looking purely at job creation misses a key point, namely that Texas has also experienced incredibly rapid population and labor force growth (due to a series of factors, including that Texas weathered the housing bubble reasonably well due to strict mortgage lending regulations). When this is taken into account, Texas’ job creation looks decidedly less impressive”.

“Clearly, there is no miracle for Texas here. While over 126,000 net jobs were created in Texas over the last two and a half years, the labor force expanded by over 437,000, meaning that overall Texas has added unemployed workers at a rate much faster than it has created jobs. And although states like Michigan have lost jobs (29,200 since February 2009), the state’s labor force has shrunk by over 185,000 since then. As a result, while there are fewer jobs, there are significantly less workers looking for them”.

As Paul Krugman put it, “several factors underlie [Texas'] rapid population growth: a high birth rate, immigration from Mexico, and inward migration of Americans from other states, who are attracted to Texas by its warm weather and low cost of living, low housing costs in particular.” But they have little to do with Perry’s policies.

We have seen in Wisconsin the people speak. All three democratic Senators held on to their Senate Seats defeating the TP/GOP challenge by near double digit wins. Of the 6 recall elections against the republicans the democrats gained two sets (or the TP/GOP loss 2 seats). This is by any measure a win for the democrats. They did not lose a seat and gained two. It has been reported that the districts for these 9 recall elections were districts that voted for Walker in 2010. If true, this is a major win for Democracy.

The people in Ohio are watching and based on what happened in Wisconsin, the Ohio Governor now wants to talk about their collective bargaining bill that comes up for a repeal vote in November. Remember, they got almost 4-5X the number of signatures they need to get it on the ballot for Nov. Now the Ohio governor says if the democrats will only pull this off the ballot he will talk about MAYBE softening the Collective Bargaining Law – My response is to tell the governor to go to hell and I guess the Ohio Democrats have pretty much told him the same. Almost 60% of voters in Ohio want the bill repealed.

Next stop Walker in 2012 – Bye Bye Walker.

The Justice Department is going after S&P for their hand in the 2008 mortgage crash saying that they were paid off by those offering inferior products to give them higher than appropriate ratings knowing they were not safe investments but in fact were junk status. People, this is fraud on a scale we have never seen before. Tell me again how current politics and a select of group of power brokers are not praying to the Gods of Power and Greed. Just saw an article where one of the big wigs at Goldman Sachs changed his name so he can be a lobbyist for the TP/GOP – There is nothing these people will not stoop to just to win an election and the hell with the American people.

PRESIDENT OBAMA IN 2012, RECALL GOVERNOR WALKER IN 2012.

" It's deja vu all over again"

-Yogi Berra

Everything I read and hear about Barry’s “new” jobs plan to be unveiled after Labor Day indicates that it’s just another same old, same old, Keynesian deficit spending stimulus scam. All I have read/heard over and over is infrastructure spending, some hiring tax goodies and more extensions of unemployment benefits. This is nothing more that a retread of the failed 2009 stimulus (“Porkulus”) spending of nearly $1 trillion. If that’s all it is then let’s call it for what it is:

Son of Porkulus 2011

The MSDNC lefty liberal talking heads all seem to be focused on ways to force the Republican’s to accept Son of Porkulus 2011 by scheming of ways to embarrass them or box them into a corner. And if they can’t do that, they talk about how they can use to against them politically in the 2012 election. There is NEVER any discussion of whether it will work, or whether America will just be flushing another trillion or two down the toilet.

Here’s my favorite line from A CNBC.com article yesterday:

The official emphasized that all of Obama's proposals would be fresh ones, not a rehash of plans he has pitched for many weeks and still supports, including his "infrastructure bank" idea to finance construction jobs.

Question: Has Barry been holding back on all his fresh good proposals until now??

Another couple of lines from the same article:

On a related front, Obama will also present a specific plan to cut the suffocating long-term national debt and to pay for the cost of his new short-term economic ideas. His debt proposal will be bigger than the $1.5 trillion package that a new "supercommittee" of Congress must come up with by late November.

Translation: BIG new taxes.

Feisty and Ron:

Did you see Ms. Perry last night on the Last Word. She was talking about when Michelle Obama spoke about her loss of faith in America and how she found it during the election campaign. Remember how she was labeled un-American and even more vile comments?

Well Bachmann said the same thing over the weekend that how she now has found her faith in America - OK tea baggers and TP/GOP - where is your big mouth now. Why does Bachmann get a pass on virtually the same sentiment?? WHY?? People want to know.

Obama lectures the locals in Illinois:

"The only thing that's holding us back right now is our politics. We should be passing trade deals right now because, look, the Koreans, they can sell Kias and Hyundais here in the United States; I think that's great. I want to be selling Fords and Chryslers and Chevys in Korea. (Applause.) And I want products all across the world stamped with three words: "Made in America." That's something that we could be doing right now." (Applause.)

Source: http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2011/08/obama_hears_about_hardships_in.html

Obama's Uber-Bus? Made in Canada.

JiA: Everything I read and hear about Barry’s “new” jobs plan to be unveiled after Labor Day indicates that it’s just another same old, same old, Keynesian deficit spending stimulus scam.

Speeches create jobs, right?

Yes Navy: I watched Ms. Perry. There are times when one can just shake one's head in disbelief.

BTW, Excellent post.

It’s always exciting when the President of the United States comes for a summer vacation.

Wiki:

English settlement had its origins in the purchase of Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket, and the Elizabeth Islands by Thomas Mayhew of Watertown, Massachusetts from two English "owners". During his lifetime, he had friendly relations with the Wampanoags on the island in part because he was careful to honor their land rights as well. His son, also Thomas Mayhew, began the first English settlement in 1642 at Great Harbor (later Edgartown, Massachusetts).

The younger Mayhew began a relationship with Hiacoomes, an Indian neighbor. The relationship eventually led to Hiacoomes' family converting to Christianity. Ultimately, many of the tribe became Christian, including the paw-waws (spiritual leaders) and sachems (political leaders). It became arguably the first successful cross-cultural church planting mission in the history of Protestantism (Eliot's work on the mainland began a few years later). By most evidence the Mayhew approach was remarkably free of the cultural imperialism so often a part of other missions of that and later eras. During King Phillip's War later in the century the Martha's Vineyard band did not join their tribal relatives in the uprising and remained armed, a testimony to the good relations cultivated by the Mayhews as the leaders of the English colony.

Indian literacy in the schools founded by Mayhew and taught by Peter Folger, the grandfather of Benjamin Franklin, was such that the first Native American graduates of Harvard were from Martha's Vineyard, including the son of Hiacoomes, Joel Hiacoomes.

There is still a substantial Wampanoag population on the Vineyard, mainly located in the town of Aquinnah. Aquinnah was formerly known as Gay Head, but was recently renamed its original Indian name, which means "land under the hill" in the Wampanoag language.

_____________________________________________________

Barack Obama's life in Massachusetts:

Wiki:

Obama entered Harvard Law School in late 1988. In an interview with Ebony in 1990, he stated that he saw a degree in law as a vehicle to facilitate better community organization and activism: "The idea was not only to learn how to hope and dream about different possibilities, but to know how the tax structure affects what kind of housing gets built where. At the end of his first year he was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review based on his grades and a writing competition. In February 1990, his second year at Harvard, he was elected president of the law review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors. Obama's election as the first black president of the law review was widely reported and followed by several long, detailed profiles. He got himself elected by convincing a crucial swing bloc of conservatives that he would protect their interests if they supported him. Building up that trust was done with the same kind of long listening sessions he had used in the poor neighborhoods of South Side, Chicago. Richard Epstein, who later taught at the University of Chicago Law School when Obama later taught there, said Obama was elected editor "because people on the other side believed he would give them a fair shake."

fyi: This is where President Obama lived in Somerville, MA while attending Harvard University.

http://centersandsquares.com/2009/07/23/barack-obama-lived-here-365-broadway-somerville/

_____________________________________

Welcome back President Obama. Hope you and your family enjoy yourselves.

Why does Bachmann get a pass on virtually the same sentiment?? WHY??

Because the same rules don't apply to them...

Same thing with Limpballs sick comment - either there won't be a peep out of them, or they'll twist it into somehow being the President's fault or deserving of it...

Then they'll spin it back to us playing the race card...

Just watch...

Ron you and i are on the same page this morning.

In an era of unlimited, untraceable domestic and foreign corporate monies being poured into our elections for the first time in history, our voices are being drowned out.

GOP would like to turn government into a for-profit-business: For example, Ryan's 'pay per view' tarrif on WI constituents after 200 years of free access to US representatives.

Time to investigate and expose the link between Norquist, Alec, Koch, Murdoch and the right wing elected officials who deliver on their agenda.

Anyone waiting for Obama to come up with a Grand Plan for jobs and the economy next month will (again) be very disappointed. Anyone that thinks Obama is interested in a plan that will do anything to turn around the economy won't hear that from him in September. What they will hear is another Obama political speech, full of taxing the rich, being fair and balanced, the blaming of corporate jets owners and oil companies, and last and not least, blaming "Congress" and not himself, for the the troubles of the country.The speech will be another kick-off to the Obama's campaign, full of grand promises and empty headed rhetoric, kind of a parallel of his entire presidency. The hardcore First Read type liberals will swoon over Obama's words, the other 96% of the country will shrug their shoulders and walk away.

Obama doesn't put a plan out today because in reality, what exactly is the hurry? It's not like he can do anything about the jobs situation before election. Obama has spent all the money he's going to get, and still there are no jobs. What Obama will be trying to do is blame Congress for all of the problems, ironically a Congress half of which his party owns. But that's going to be a heavy lift for Obama, especially now that the country is heading for a double-dip recession.

Obama doesn't care about any "Jobs Program", he cares about a "Job Program", his.

Killing Memories Finding the Truth

The anti-woman, anti-family agenda radical to defund Planned Parenthood and earlier this year helped bring the government to brink of a shutdown over access to women's health care and cancer screenings. Just this month, Republicans proved they were willing to gamble with the nation's fiscal solvency to advance their partisan agenda right wing agenda.

Credit ratings agency Standard & Poor's is under investigation by the Justice Department for their shoddy mortgage ratings in the lead-up to the financial crisis. The Feds say the investigation started prior to the agency's downgrade of the U.S. government's AAA credit rating.

Will the birthers, tea baggers, tenthers, and FOX NOISE SEE that?

Chris Christie: New Jersey just got its credit rating downgraded by Fitch from AA to AA-.

It’s time for Chris Christie to jog his memory, in light of the fact he busted unions.

Rick Perry’s ugly talk about global warming not being caused by humans and was based on manipulated data from scientist amongst his many other treasonous sayings.

Cutting CO2 Could Prevent Droughts

Carbon dioxide traps heat in the middle of the atmosphere. "This warm air in the atmosphere tends to prevent the rising air motions that create thunderstorms and rainfall," the article stated

http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/story/53333/cutting-co2-could-prevent-drou.asp

These are the Effects of Drought

Economic

Loss of national economic growth, slowing down of economic development

Environmental
- Increased desertification - Damage to animal species
- Reduction and degradation of fish and wildlife habitat
- Lack of feed and drinking water
- Disease
- Increased predation.
- loss of wildlife in some areas and too many in others
- Increased stress to endangered species
- Damage to plant species
- Increased number and severity of fires
- Wind and water erosion of soils

Social
- Food shortages
- Loss of human life from food shortages, heat, suicides, violence
- Mental and physical stress
- Water user conflicts
- Political conflicts
- Social unrest
- Public dissatisfaction with government regarding drought response
- Inequity in the distribution of drought relief
- Loss of cultural sites
- Reduced quality of life which leads to changes in lifestyle
- increased poverty
- Population migrations

http://library.thinkquest.org/16132/html/droughtinfo/effects.html

Obama's Bus Tour

Over at the "Smear Channel" aka FOX NEWS they are lying the Presidnt’s bus tour being a campaign, about the number of vacations, and the bus was made in Canada..

The U.S. Secret Service said it purchased the vehicle from Hemphill Brothers Coach Co., which is based in Nashville, Tenn.

According to CBS News, Obama has taken far less vacation that George W. Bush and Ronald Reagan had at the same point in their presidencies. After 31 months in office, Obama has taken 61 vacation days. At the same point in their presidencies, George W. Bush had spent 180 days on his ranch, while Ronald Reagan had taken 112 at his ranch.

They need to find those facts

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama-tour-bus-made-america/story?id=14324892

So when Texas’ economy slides even further into abyss and Texas starts loosing life maybe just maybe Trick Rick “Scary” Perry will remember.

Don't miss this chance to correct history

OBAMA/ BIDEN 2012

Obama's Uber-Bus? Made in Canada.

KNOCK IT OFF JS1!!!

You know damn well the President didn't pick up the phone & order it himself!

One more time - the Secret Service is in charge of his security!

BTW - are you gonna fling your crap when the Republican nominee is cruising the country on it?

Good morning, Progressive friends. Great post.

Good Morning Pat and Beverly:

Pat: It's good to see you out and about this morning. Around the first of December the Colts will be visiting the Patriots at Gillette Stadium. We would like the weather to be in the mid 60's.

Bev: You and I are almost always on the same page.

Just about every leading economist says raising the cap above $106,800 would extend Social Security out at 100% of benefits for another 75 years. Raising the payroll tax (less popular) will also do that or a combination of the two.

Raising the retirement age and reforming the benefit formula would do the trick too. Or a combination thereof. But the left would much prefer taking the raising taxes route. Cuz that's what they do.

MS. Perry is a very smart and articulate women and her comments last night were right one.

Everybody should go over to MSNBC and watch her video on the Last Word yesterday. It is an eye opener for sure. We as a Nation have not moved forward as much as we think when it comes to racism and bigotry. One side appears to have more of a problem with it than the other. That is sad, very sad.

She is supposed to be coming to Middlebury College to speak and I cannot wait. This is one lady I want to see in person.

Air Force discharges anti-Obama 'birther'

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/08/air-force-discharges-anti-obama-birther-sergeant/1?csp=Dailybriefing

Obama releases long-form birth certificate

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-04-27-obama-birth-certificate_n.htm

Either this anti-American didn't see this, lost his memory, or is just a moronic T-bagger who infiltrated the Armed Forces.

BTW - are you gonna fling your crap when the Republican nominee is cruising the country on it?

The answer, of course, is no. Just look at the sound and fury made about the private jet that Nancy Pelosi was required to take when she was Speaker of the House. It was mandated by the House Sergeant at Arms but that didn't stop the GOP from making a big stink about it.

Never mind that it was the same private jet that Dennis Hastert used when he was Speaker...or that it's the same jet that John Boehner now flies as Speaker. Now it's no longer a big deal.

Pat: It's good to see you out and about this morning. Around the first of December the Colts will be visiting the Patriots at Gillette Stadium. We would like the weather to be in the mid 60's.

LOL. Wouldn't we both love it to be in the mid 60's. haha. Fat chance.

Thanks for the chuckle Ron and good to see you my friend.

JoAnna:

Speeches create jobs, right?

Every bit as well as trickle-down economics creates them.

And maybe better. Someone had to cater the food for that trip.

Just about every leading economist says raising the cap above $106,800 would extend Social Security out at 100% of benefits for another 75 years

Didn't Obama say something about not raising taxes on the middle-class? So are people making $106,800 now considered the "rich" by the Left?

I'm getting very tired of people saying that the 2009 stimulus failed without telling the complete story. Did it reduce overall unemployment levels? Of course not, but then again, it certainly prevented things from getting worse. In fact, the money sent to the states allowed many states (including Texas) to bolster their coffers at least temporarily.

Furthermore, the stimulus was only a half measure to begin with. Just to get the measure passed, the Democrats had to compromise and make half of it tax cuts, which is a far cry from being a true economic stimulus. It might have been better off if they had had all of it be infrastructure spending, as it is desperately needed in this country at this time.

The difference is the taxpayers paid for obama's bus and under the bus tour. Campaign contributions pay for a nominee's bus and/or transportation.

Thirty one thousand (31,000) American scientists can't be wrong.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/

The stand alone Gallup poll, mentioned briefly in First Thoughts, contains bad new for Obama, but eye- opening information for rational people.

You rightly mention Obama's basement level approval on the economy, but overlook the truly amazing fact that Democrats approve of his handling of the economy by 53%!

they approve of his job creation skills at 60%.

As one who has often said that the sky in Obamaland is plaid, I should not be shocked by the delusional thinking of those who continue to support this failed president- but 60% approval for his job creation is beyond comprehension.

Ironically, this comes out on Thursday, when initial claims for unemployment are announced. This week's number is 408,000- nine thousand more than last week's revised number of 399,000. For those not keeping score, that is four thousand more than the initial report- double the revisions from previous weeks. I guess collating and arithmetic skills in this administration have gone in the same direction as everything else- down.

ALL republican candidates should be publicizing the Democrats' complete disconnect with reality. Don't take my word for it, though. Read it for yourself

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149042/New-Low-Approve-Obama-Economy.aspx

ML: I'm getting very tired of people saying that the 2009 stimulus failed without telling the complete story.

The definition of an economic stimulus is an investment designed to jump-start things like more jobs, increased investment, more consumer confidence, and growth in the economy.

Today there are less jobs, consumer confidence is at lows last seen under Carter, and GDP is 1.3%. By that measure, the 2009 stimulus has failed.

Ron, thanks for the history lesson for our younger bloggers.I will never forget the LBJ ad against Goldwater's statement about "extremism in defense of our country is never wrong." The ad had a small girl picking petals off a daisy while the countdown to a atom bomb and then the mushroom cloud is seen in the background.

Yup, 39% won't get you a win in a national election. But a cautionary tale about the current Texan and the boat load of money he will use to try to get his party's nomination.

Raising the retirement age and reforming the benefit formula would do the trick too. Or a combination thereof. But the left would much prefer taking the raising taxes route. Cuz that's what they do.

_____________________________________________________________________

NO to raising the retirement age. Raise the cap on Social Security, makes better sense.

Pat, Boston, MA

It’s always exciting when the President of the United States comes for a summer vacation

Welcome back , Pat

It's good to have you weight in with historical facts. I love history.

Martha's Vineyard is rooted in black history.

http://www.thegrio.com/black-history/popular-culture/on-sunday-president-obama-and.php

I'm sorry BWD is on HIATUS.

Also President Obama had a reputation fore working across the aisle as Senator here in IL l I guess none of us expected this kind of recalictrance in D.C.

So check this out-

Chatting with my driver on the way into the airport this morning. He's from Ghana, been here about 17 years and is a democrat. We mostly chatted about Ghana, why he came, and how he plans to return after he retires.

But he said he this country is not the same, not as great as it used to be. It spends too much money, more than it has. He was very pessimistic. His big concern was world wide. He said it is important that America be the super power, not China. China would never have let him come there and become a citizen.

But more important to him was that "America treats people and countries the way it wants to be treated." China and other countries will never do that. "Africa knows that lesson well."

He said he is a democrat, but is "is just common sense that you cannot spend more than you have." I of course told him to tell all his democrats friends that very thing.

For me this was very encouraging. For all the Navys, Feistys, Rons, Bev.s here it would appear that at least some of the democrats get the fiscal issues. And after all this is the very guy that makes the country great - a legal immigrant that works hard. He even told me he "pays over $6,000 in taxes a year" and that he is glad to do it.

The whole encounter really made my day which is a very rare thing.

All right, enough sharing. Someone hit the play button on the Groundhog Day DVD.

So what's the topic? RV-1? Vacations? Plans and the lack there of?

Pat and Beverly:

Kudos, great posts today and I am with ya. A lot of us on the same page today.

Ron: Thank you for the kind words and you hit another 4 bagger today. Great Job.

Backhouse: Good to see you this morning - nice post. Yep, the TP/GOP is trying to turn our Government over to Wall Street, Big Business and Big Oil Companies and the Insurance Industry. We will be voting, assuming we still have the right to vote, for CEO's.

Feisty: Judging from your post I see the resident vile and hateful witch still does not have anything of value to say. Still stuck on the birth certificate of a bus?? Come on get real. The TP/GOP is dragging this country into the sewers and she is worried about where the bus was made. What an idiot.

"As one who has often said that the sky in Obamaland is plaid"

Really? Gosh, we never noticed.....

Gallup this week has found that the president’s approval rating at or below 40%, that just 26% approve of his job on the economy, and that only 11% are satisfied with the way things are going in the country. But it’s just not Obama; the American public is angry at EVERYONE. Gallup, for instance, this week found Congress’ approval rating to be 13%. The good news for Obama: He has time to heal his wounds after another rough summer, and the attention has fully turned to the GOP race. The bad news: He has yet another hole to climb out of…

To me this looks like very bad news for Obama. It ain't lookin good for da prez. Only problem... who will replace him? Romney is Mr. Plastic. Perry is Mr. Deception. Bachman is Ms. Befuddled. Paul is Mr. Trying. Cain is Mr. Who. Palin is Ms. Mosthatedbyliberals. Gingrich is Mr. Byebye... and that leaves Mr./Ms. Unknown. Well, the only bright spot is it's still early in the cycle.

@Michael L ~

The stimulus actually did reduce unemployment from it's high at over 10 percent in late 2009, falling slowly back down to the 9 percent range we are in today.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate

The rest of your post is spot-on.

The tough problem for the President will be having to deal with the additional outflow of unemployed caused by all the public sector layoffs we are starting to see -- for example, in Texas, where Governor Perry is about to lay off about 130,000 public employees. And President Obama will no doubt be blamed for the spike in unemployment that this will cause.

I love this "every leading economist" moonbeam being shone on us.

Who? Krugman? If he gave you directions to the men's room, he'd be wrong.

Let's look at FACT.

Bill Clinton lifted the income cap on Medicare taxes when he was president- it was supposed to make Medicare whole forever.

Did it work? Of course it didn't.

Part of democratic delusional dementia is the belief that, if something fails to achieve the intended result, doing it again will have a different outcome.

When discussing things with democrats, it is helpful to remember that they actually think Obama is doing a good job on the economy, and an even better job creating jobs.

In other words, back away from the crazy people.

Conservatives are desperate to avoid talking about anything real. They're determined to make an issue of the mode of transportation chosen by the Secret Service for the President (and his general election opponent) because reality shows a GOPTP in collapse.

A record high disapproval rate for the Republican Party at 59%.

Loss of 1/3 of seats involved in the recent Wisconsin recall elections, while Democrats held ALL of theirs.

The Ohio governor begging for some sort of compromise on his own union-busting law because he KNOWS it will be overturned by public referendum.

Public approval of the Tea Party is lower than approval for Muslims or even Atheists! http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/17/opinion/crashing-the-tea-party.html?_r=3

Looks like it didn't take the American people long to connect the dots.

I don't care whether that black bus was made in Canada or even Sri Lanka for crying out loud, it scares the bejeebers out of me. I'm half expecting His Darthness to open the spigots for a ton of green slime to come pouring out that devours the locals. A fitting end to his Magical Misery Tour.

Spanky: Chatting with my driver on the way into the airport this morning . . .

You had a driver? Wow. Didn't Rent-A-Wreck have a 2005 Saturn sub-compact you could rent? Saturn's are, ehh, were made in America too.

And did you see RV-1 returning to DC, or does it have to go back to Canada first to be serviced? Who's next on the signup sheet to get the Mad Max Bus?

Do you think if you drive next to RV-1, you could pick up on its wifi? You just know it's not protected.

So John B - unemployment, debt, deficits, wars. Non of that is "real?" eh.

So tell us, what is a real issue to you, cause I know what I've been talking about around here.

John B: Conservatives are desperate to avoid talking about anything real.

What do you want to talk about John? 9%+ unemployment? 1.3% GDP. 24million people out of work or underemployed? $1.5 trillion dollar deficits? Entitlement reform? Plans put forth by the Republicans to address these issues (many)? Plans put forth by the Democrats to address these issues (few)?

Name your poison.

JAS1,

Your b!tching about this bus makes you look petty and childish. seriously. What plans do the GOP have for Jobs?

Saturn is dead. RIP.

I would never, under any circumstances, have ever bought a Saturn. Total POS.

As for RV-1, i'm sure it has a big Cat diesel, and an Allison Tranny, so American labor did go into it. Funny part is, Obama has been to Elkhardt Ind. many times. They build almost all the motor homes there. You'd have thought he would have used that to his advantage.

He is, after all the smartest adult non terrorist in the room.

Oh, wait, but now all he talks about is lowering taxes and payroll tax holidays. So to the libbies he must be the biggest hostage taking terrorist in the room.

Ron, that was an outstanding recounting of the history of attempts by conservatives to hijack this country.

Two authors have just published the results of an intensive study of the Tea Party movement. Their work confirms that the movement is a straight-line extension of conservatism from the past, building from the old John Brich Society through the religious right coalitions organized in the 1970's to the corporate-driven evangelism of Milton Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics in the 1981-2008 era.

The authors, interviewed last night on CNN (why don't the producers put up a graphic about interview subjects and book titles for more than 10 seconds?), summarized their findings:

- Mostly white

- Almost entirely fundamentalist Christians

- Hostile to minorities, Catholics and Jews

- Affiliation with the Tea Party movement follows long span of prior conservative activism

These are the people who are manning the barricades for Grover Norquist, the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, the Koch Brothers, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the American Manufacturers' Associatin, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Bank of America, and other well-heeled corporate interests. They are ill-informed about their true sponsors, many of whom are actually the targets of Tea Party ire.

In the alleged name of "freedom" and "free markets," they are pushing an ideology that has repeatedly instead produced the opposite results.

On claims that their extremist programs are the "solutions" that would produce jobs, they advocate actions that have alread begun strangling the tender economic recovery thanks to coordinated actions by right-wing state officials and lawmakers.

And on the distant horizon, they promote a vision of America that is a complete violation of the principles most people in the country hold sacred.

The conservative movement is cynical and self-contradicting, and must not continue to tear down a great country.

Raising the retirement age and reforming the benefit formula would do the trick too. Or a combination thereof. But the left would much prefer taking the raising taxes route. Cuz that's what they do.

No, we're in touch with reality rather than the fantasy world of Ayn Rand and the John Birch Society. There's a very valid statistical reason to eliminate the cap. As a society longevity has been increasing, but that's mostly attributable to improved health among professionals and the upper quintiles of the economy. Longevity among the lower quintiles is lower.

To increase the solvency of Social Security by raising the retirement age is to tell garbage collectors they have to work until later in life because doctors and lawyers live longer.

Hey Ted - what's unemployment in Mich? How about Detroit? What's bluer - Detroit or DC?

What's the progressive's plan? How about the CBC - old Maxine seems all fired up these days.

She's the best.

Spanky, the majority of them think Obama is doing a bang up job on the economy, and even more of them think his job creation record is outstanding.

That defines reality for them- so expecting sense is futile.

I'm thinking the big spike in the number of independents is representative of the rational people leaving the sinking ship of the democratic party. Pretty soon all that will be left are the Obama cult members.

All 38 of them.

Beverly, I saw that BWD has taken a break from politics. I miss her dearly as I check out her sight every night, but especially weekends. But we have The Obama Diary/ http://theobamadiary.com/and Deaniac83 - http://www.thepeoplesview.net/ - who is a wonderful writer and a 100% supporter of President Obama. He works hard to beat back the BS we see on the blogs and some of the media when they get it wrong.

He's smart and very passionate, as is ThisIsMyTime (my favorite blogger), who writes there regularly. BWD will be back I'm sure. I took a break from politics and tv (albiet working the whole time), but sometimes it is good to get away, especially as this beautiful summer winds down.

I mentioned the history of Martha's Vineyard this morning to a co-worker who is from Africa. He was right up on his history of the Vineyard and proceeded to give me a history lesson of blacks on the Vineyard. Don't you just love it when people know a lot of about history - any history?

And I just found out that Lawrence O'Donnell's mother passed away. Sad when you lose your parents. He surely is in my thoughts. He must be here in Boston now.

Lawrence O'Donnell's father is well known where I work. He was quite an attorney and highly thought of here. One of our former partners used to work with Lawrence's father evidently.

I am hoping to head out there next summer for a day, hopefully to have lunch with you, Ron and Feisty. We'll see if it can be worked out during the campaign season.

For now, back to my regularly scheduled job.

Enjoy the day everybody.

Ron, I just now got a chance to read your post. It was fascinating. Thank you!

I am hoping to head out there next summer for a day, hopefully to have lunch with you, Ron and Feisty. We'll see if it can be worked out during the campaign season.

Sounds wonderful Pat!

I'll see what I can do to get us a tour of Obama's campaign headquarters...

PS: I'm going to check out those books you recommended last night!

26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26% <------ discuss!

AH! Just had to look within the proper reference. From Yahoo News (also mentioned above in re TP approval ratings):

In an op-ed article in the New York Times, Robert D. Putnam, a professor of public policy at Harvard, and David E. Campbell, a political scientist at Notre Dame, say they have collected data indicating that the tea party is "less popular than much maligned groups like 'atheists' and 'Muslims.'"

In their book, American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, the authors also overturned some current mythology about the Tea Party:

Early tea partiers were described as "nonpartisan political neophytes," Campbell and Putnam write, but their findings showed that tea partiers were "highly partisan Republicans" who were more likely than others to have contacted government officials.

"They are overwhelmingly white, but even compared to other white Republicans, they had a low regard for immigrants and blacks long before Barack Obama was president, and they still do," they went on.

In addition to being socially conservative, the study found a close tie between religion and the tea party, whose supporters seek out "deeply religious" elected officials.

Suspicions confirmed!

Michael L;

You and the others are correct. The Stimulus did work and virtually every economist (democrat and republican) say it did. See below. Those right wingers that deny this are liars and just proves how lost and impotent that party (TP/GOP) really is. No new ideas, the ones they have suck and caused the problems we are facing today and they want to go back and do it again with the same failed agenda.

Did the Stimulus Work?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-08-30-stimulus30_CV_N.htm

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/wait-did-the-stimulus-work/

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2910

John B: Conservatives are desperate to avoid talking about anything real.

John B - is that a grandstanding remark to shine in front of your liberal buddies? It sure appears as it is. Conservatives have been discussing many real items of interest... maybe you are blind to it... or have such narrow views, that any "real" discussions are totally dismissed by you.

Don't confuse the Tea Party with Goldwater conservativism. Other than fiscal conservatism, I see very little conservatism from the Tea Party. Like Jon Stewart said the other night when comparing Ron Paul to Perry/Bachmann...Paul is ideologically pure and the real deal while Perry/Bachmann are moral majority wrapped in a tri corner hat.

jinsd - yeppers, that was a great description. What Perry and Bachmann et al advocate is reformation of the U.S. into a corporatist cartel state much like Japan. In fact, it's a system that is quite close to fascism.

JOS: 26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26%26% <------ discuss!

Not to worry. Barack "Jobs" Obama will be giving a speech on jobs in a couple of weeks. If that speech is as good as his debt ceiling speeches, look for that number to quickly go to 23%.

John A:

Right on the money #1.56. The TP/GOP is adopting several ideologies from several of the old 1930 - 1940 European Political Philosophies that we find find repugnant today and certainly NOT American values.

This is what they have morphed into a semi collection of fascism/despotism/oligarchy/Nazism/etc ideologies. This is what makes them so dangerous in that they are not taking ideas from any one but a collection of ideas from them all.

All we have to do is look at the bills they are passing and proposing, look at what they have blocked and opposed and more recent look at the rhetoric coming from the Presidential wannabees on the Right. I have never in all my years seen such a collection of anti-American virtues, principles, morals, values, ethics, etc concentrated into one group. And this group wants to overthrow our Government.

Spankster,

The MI unemployment rate is 10.9. Which is not bad considering our manufacturing base and the devesation of the big three's decline, outsourcing and modernization for the last couple decades. We were at 14+ 2 years ago; so things are gettting better. (even got a new winmil plant up north - 600+ workers, and several advanced battery manufacturers - 1500+)

Detroit is much higher, I don't live there, have no skin in that game and am not responsible for Detroit. if you see my moniker; I'm in mid-michigan. Detroit is 100 miles away from me.

The Dems have put out at least 4 bills directly tied to job creation. find them. I have looked all over the google-machine for a plan that addressed jobs from the GOP. I actually heard my PC scream "TAX CUTS" at me, followed by the eerie sound of crickets.

Absolutely Navy in 1.59...Goldwater also railed against the buying of elections.

For whatever reason one of my mainstay litmus tests is "are you in favor of a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between one man and one woman" If you answer yes, you are not conservative in my eyes. In fact, I voted no on Prop 8 here in the Golden State.

The motivation/impetus behind our Constituion is to limit the power of the Government over it's people not the other way around. A concept that is lost with the current GOP/Tea Party.

Well, Obama is dribbling out some ideas about what is going to be in "the speech".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-issue-new-proposals-on-job-creation-debt-reduction/2011/08/17/gIQALaG9KJ_story.html

I'll give you the Cliff's notes:

Obama is campaigning for reelection. That takes money. In order to get people to give money, you must promise them a return on their "investment". To do that, you need a slush fund of borrowed tax dollars- or, a stimulous bill.

Ask Steve Westly- who bundled half a million, and got a half billion as a return on his "investment".

Obama understands that the electorate is worried about the debt- so he will call on the super committee to cut more than they anticipate. These cuts will be given due reverence- the same reverence his debt commission received. That is to say, whatever the finding be, they will go into the circular file.

Considering that his approval rating head down the more he campaigns, (and who thought it would be a good idea to go tooling around in a Canadian built bus that looks like the deathstar?), and the only people who think he is doing a good job are the mind numbed cult members whose idea of high intellect is to go around mumbling "yes we can" and WTF, I think he should quit while he's leading from behind.

It would be the first thing he did, other than giving the no- brainer order to shoot bin Laden, that would get majority approval.

NJNB, JoAnna and Spanky tag teaming this morning. How cute.

The President hasn't even made his speech yet and you are already ripping it to shreds. And you wonder why nothing gets done in this country...

You can't even comment on Bachman's comments about finally finding her faith in America.

But you can complain about the bus some more. Even though you can't read beyond the first line of press releases to learn that the frame of the bus may have been made in Canada but the rest of it was made in this country.

fielden: The President hasn't even made his speech yet and you are already ripping it to shreds. And you wonder why nothing gets done in this country.

What do you think the chances are that Obama walks to podium and says "I support my own Debt Commission's findings. I ask Congress to pass it as is and get it to my desk as soon as possible."?

Yeah, Slim and None, and Slim just left the room.

So what do you expect fielden? Here we have a Debt Commission report, Obama's failed FY2012 budget, Ryan's budget voted down in the Senate, this somewhat misnamed "Super Committee", and now Obama being real coy about his "Grand Plan" (more like Grand Re-Election Plan).

Which one of these makes any sense to you fielden?

So is social security a welfare plan or is it a contributory retirement plan? You progressives get mad when its called a welfare plan but if you want to raise the cap, dont you have to raise benefits for those who contributed above the cap? If you dont, your just making it more of a welfare plan than it is today. I didnt think social security was part of the federal budget for you guys and it is an entitlement? Are you advocating stealing the entitlement from someone making $110k to provide welfare to someone else?

As for the stimulus, isnt it more about what it cost not whether it worked? I think most fiscal conservatives on here recognize that there were job savings spent but at what cost? Do you think stimulus money works if it costs $500k per job? I think in almost all situations, it would have been cheaper to hand the cash over to the various people whose jobs were saved as welfare than spending it in the fashion the stimulus did which is our point.

As for Wisconsin, why is it that all of the progressives on here ignore the fact that Walker's plan so far seams to have been beneficial. More school districts have flexibility and avoided teacher lay offs etc. Seems like making the state unions have collective bargaining rights equivalent to the ones Obama advocates at the federal level has been positive fiscally for the state.

Yes, Pat

I love history though I'm deficit in two World Wars. Thanks to you I try and gobble up as much I can on the History channel or through books.

I would love for us to get together.

P.S. I have a thing for East coast accents. In fact my friends thought I visited NY & NJ for the wrong reason. I actually went to experience the accent. If I were a phoneticist, I said the p;people in New Jersey talk like the people in England.

You want my take on Bachman, fielden? Fine.

I did not comment on her remarks because I did not hear them., I did not hear them because I do not pay attention to her. I don't pay attention to her because, as a woman, she makes my blood boil.

I think it's lovely that she has a strong marriage and raised all those foster children. I become infuriated that she blunders so much. When men do it, it is a knock on that person, (I'm thinking of Gincgrich here. His lack of self discipline infuriates me, because it leads to a waste of a very good mind.). When a woman does it, it leads many to believe that all women are unsuited to high office.

She won the Ames Straw poll in the state where she was born. That and five bucks will get you a Starbucks coffee. She will not win the nomination, no matter how hard democrats try to get it for her.

Her emotionalism and lack of attention to the dumbest details make me angry. I have no use for her.

Have I spelled it out sufficiently for you? I hope so.

Now, how about your addressing the fact that 53% of democrats approve of Obama's handling of the economy, and 60% approve of his job creation skills? Unless you are fully in the camp with the rest of the delusional, I would be interested in your explanation of how so many democrats believe in things that are not there.

Conservatives have been discussing many real items of interest...

Sure....black buses purchased by the Secret Service, loss of 1/3 of Republican seats is a victory, and that President Obama is a socialist who's failed in some unspecified, unsupported fashion.

I'm bowled over. Where are the Conservatives making a case for the great candidate they plan to back for President in 2012, or the fabulous legislation Republicans have enacted to get the economy going?

"When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."

Sinclair Lewis

America Held Hostage, Day 230

Where are the Conservatives making a case for the great candidate they plan to back for President

The closest to an actual conservative is Rep. Ron Paul...the rest are, to borrow a phrase from Jon Stewart, "moral majority wrapped in a tri fold hat"

loss of 1/3 of Republican seats is a victory

Again, when we do math out here in The Golden State losing 2 seats out of 19 <> a 1/3 loss. Josef Goebbels would be proud though...

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Mark Twain

Gallup this week has found that the president’s approval rating at or below 40%, that just 26% approve of his job on the economy, and that only 11% are satisfied with the way things are going in the country.

These summaries are always silly. Only 11% are satisfied with the way things are going in the country because they are sick and tired of the Teabaggers. Look at the low approval of the Tea Party, and you see the correlation.

John B, Perhaps a conservative in this thread can explain how President Obama is a socialist, yet it was the president who threatened not to send out Social Security checks, as if this would be his choice? To argue that the president or Dems are socialists, but who would be against Social Security, a program they created and have protected -- It makes your hair hurt at the twisted reasoning the right-wing tries to pass off as truth.

I realize math is hard for you, but how many Republicans were on the ballot? Hint; the answer is 6.

How many won? Hint; the answer is 4.

Now, simplify 4/6, multiply by 100 and tell us what percentage of seats Republicans retained in the recall elections.

Now, simplify 3/3, multiply by 100 and tell us what percentage of seats Democrats retained in the recall elections.

Seats that weren't in play aren't relevant. You want to count them as success. It would be just as wrong for me to say none of the Republicans not up for recall outpolled their opponents. It's just an incorrect usage of numbers.

Kirk -- The current FICA contribution to SS is around $106,000. That used to be the cut-off for the richest 5%, but now the cut-off for the richest 5% is closer to $150,000. That's because the rich have gotten richer, while the other 95% of the population falls below that amount. The cap needs to be raised to reflect the change, similar to cost of living adjustments.

A means test is another idea that would help, especially now since the last 35 years of earnings for most Americans will suck due to the Great Recession, along with loses from private plans like 401ks.

Even if Mitt Romney understood anything other than corporate raiding, does anyone really think Gordon Gekko would favor asking for shared sacrifice? Riiight.

but how many Republicans were on the ballot

Not really...I have a Masters in Computer Science so math is not so much a problem. You left out that tiny little detail. At first glance one could say wow, there was a sea(sp) change in good ol WI.

You sort of make my point...it's all in how the numbers and context are presented. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs over semantics...

Then again, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Mark Twain

Now please don't take it personally because the other side of the aisle is equally guilty of the same.

John B, who cares about the description of success or not. Lets say the democrats were successful because they cut into the republican majority similar to the republican success into cutting into the democratic congressional majority right? But you dont believe that the republican success was a repudiation of Obama's policies even after 2 years in office and Obama's policies were fairly radical in terms of total overhaul of government. Walker's policies were less than a year old and every shred of evidence points to their fiscal success contrary to Obama's progressive ones but you still want to call it a repudiation of Walker. Lets be real and somewhat objective ok?

True Patriot, the problem with your approval ratings is they dont mean much. Congress as a whole or Tea party people as a whole might have low approval ratings especially when you take polling in far left radical locations like Ca where they arent represented anyway. Look at Pelosi and her approval ratings but she will never be in jeopardy of losing her reelection because of the kooks in San Fran who will continue to vote her in while they vote to ban circumcision. So the tea party members and the individual members of congress will continue to enjoy whatever ups and downs associated with local politics. But Obama doesnt get that benefit. He is going to have a real tough fight in the electoral college and smart betting money would have him losing to any of the republican candidates that come out of the primary that can stop their pandering to the right to get the primary vote and start pandering to the middle in the general election to win. Romney, Huntsmann and Perry can certainly do that. The others not so much. Its the same strategy that Obama used to get elected. He pandered to his far left radical loony base in the primary to get the nod over Hillary and then moved to the center as a centrist in the general election and won over the independarnts. He wont be able to do that this time. He can only count on CA, NY and Illinois while in trouble in most other states.

People call Obama a socialist because his sense of leveling the playing field runs contrary to our country's work ethic that is based on personal accountability and responsibility. It used to be that people thought it was their personal responsibility to get ahead in life and taking welfare or entitlements from others who earned it was shameful. Now Obama wants to take from the successful to level the playing field. Social security payments were never at risk and Obama was just playing politics when he said that. Neither democrats or republicans are against social security and both parties have protected it. In fact if you really want it protected, only Bush put forth a plan that would have privatized it and it would have been in an account just for you. You would have gotten exactly what you put into it and its earnings. Now its become a welfare plan in which the wealthiest segment of our society our seniors are getting benefits at 3-1 at what they contributed. So yes, all of us know that social security needs to be modified to take into account that its not sustainable with the current benefits.

Bottom line is that at the end of the day the democrats had two more seats than they did before and the AINOS lost those two and won nothing else. So now the WI Senate is 17/16 with the AINOS having the advantage. Before the recall elections what was the Senate split - do the math. We picked up 2 and they lost the 2. What also makes this important is that at least one Senate GOP is a moderate that voted against the Collective Bargaining Law. If the vote was taken today they Law would have failed.Trying to include those not on the ballot is misleading at best.

"Figures do not lie but "Liars" Figure"

I understand how FICA works but are you suggesting that social security is not a contributory retirement plan and that its welfare? I thought you progressives didnt like it called that. If you want to make it a welfare plan where you take more from someone making $120,000 without providing more benefits to that person when they reach social security age but give the extra to the wealthiest segment of our populations our seniors--thats welfare. Strange welfare system you created too, take from the working upper middle class and give to the retired wealthy-mmmmmm that doesnt seem like progressive politics to me. I dont have a problem with means testing but you dont need to raise taxes to do that.

As for rich getting richer, did it ever occur to you that maybe the education gap and legal and illegal immigration caused most of that? Not the tax code. Did you see the the WSJ article written by your own democrat senator landrieu where she stated that 30 million working people in the US dont have the educational skills to meet future employment job skills requirement. That technology has created a need for job skills for middle class jobs that rise above high school education. She was advocating for more money for this which is a different topic but maybe all of this class warfare talk you like to make really has to do with 30 million people arent qualified to make middle class wages due to education. I would be the first to agree that our education system has failed a ton of people but look who stands in the way of making educational progress----THE UNIONS AND DEMOCRATS!!! so stop blaming everything on whatever you like to call right wing. Being a fiscal conservative and actually critically thinking through the causes of problems and how to productively solve problems has nothing to do with right wing.

Trying to include those not on the ballot is misleading at best

As is leading one to believe at first glance that the Democratic Party picked up roughly 6 seats...

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." Mark Twain

Conservatives try to talk down SS by calling it all kinds of things from a ponzi scheme to welfare, but it's closer to insurance. You pay premiums, and based on the stats, many will never collect (they die before retirement, or early into retirement).

This is why I'm against survivor benefits, or worse disability being included in what should only be retirement insurance based on what each individual pays in premiums--not their spouse or children. Survivor benefits are there because of the religious right who believe women should stay home and have lots of children.

What we do know is SS is way better than 401ks, and even professionally-managed pension plans, both of which have gone under and can be wiped out over night. Until the "brilliant" conservatives can offer a better solution, they need to STFU.

Medicaid is more like welfare--the difference between entitlements and trust funds, really. What we need to do is lower heath care costs in the first place, which includes preventative care and keeping people out of ER. It can be argued that we would pay for Medicare one way or the other. Why not have a cost-effective health care system for all, making it more fair, making it less of a drag on the economy, etc.? OMG, we can't have that!

What we do know is SS is way better than 401ks, and even professionally-managed pension plans, both of which have gone under and can be wiped out over night.

Not if you properly diversify at certain milestones...give me the option to privately invest my FICA tax...please...please

Unfortunately, its not more like insurance as thats based on a actuarial table with prescribed benefits based on the amount of premiums you pay. I am not aware of any insurance that you pay for and then changes within the insurance period and says you pay us more premiums but your retirement benefit doesnt change. Its definitely a combination of contributory retirement plan and welfare because the level of benefit if far higher than the amount you contribute plus a return on those contributions. Thats welfare. SS is way better than a 401k because its welfare. But Bush's plan was neither a 401k nor a professionally managed pension in that it was going to be set aside and put in treasurys or CDs or something in which the prinicpal wasnt at risk. HIs plan at first included self managed but that was eliminated so his plan was better but obviously less costly than Social security because it eliminated the welfare component.

I am all for a cost effective health care system we just havent found any solutions that provide that yet have we. Certainly Obama care doesnt do that and the current system has its issues but I am open minded to that concept as is most people.

Agreed that 1) there's an IOU in the SS trust fund box, and 2) treasury bonds only are not a diversified pension plan. I'm not against the FICA withholding being dedicated to the individual paying it, however like insurance, if your pay-out on a claim was based on what you paid in premiums (rather than pooled money), it wouldn't compare. At the same time, it's not welfare because you did pay into it (it's not free, and it is averaged on the best 35 years of your earnings). Also, SS is hard to live on, and is only meant as a supplement to other preparations that are the individual's responsibility.

Health care can be made more cost effective via group bargaining, for example Medicare should bargain with Big Pharma for more affordable prescription drugs. And with health care providers too--there are some ways that are better than others if you want to argue that. Just removing the for-profit insurance middlemen alone presents a large savings. The oversight to catch fraud is where Medicare needs to be improved, and other areas.

"Obamacare" is only insurance reform in the system as we know it, with some improvement in competition (many insurers are a monopoly in a state), and regulations, etc. But because it is still in the for-profit private sector, I'm against a mandate. If it was set-up like Medicare, in which the government administers the program, and negotiates with the private sector, then I'd be all for it.

reference #1.24

Michael L

Just to get the measure passed, the Democrats had to compromise and make half of it tax cuts,

That number goes up every time I read it. Politi-fact says that the tax cut portion of the Stimulus was a lot closer to 25%

I'm going to end my day by agreeing with TruePatriot on post #1.83

Only problem is you make too much sense therefore my cynical side says it'll never happen...

As is leading one to believe at first glance that the Democratic Party picked up roughly 6 seats...

Not true. I never said anything other than Democrats took 2 seats away from Republicans.

People call Obama a socialist because his sense of leveling the playing field runs contrary to our country's work ethic that is based on personal accountability and responsibility. It used to be that people thought it was their personal responsibility to get ahead in life and taking welfare or entitlements from others who earned it was shameful. Now Obama wants to take from the successful to level the playing field.

A fine example of why Kirk spends most of his time talking to himself. Liberals on FR have told him repeatedly what we believe, but he refuses do divert from a position that requires Liberals to be lazy marxists who insist on having everything taken from the rich and given to others. There's no point in addressing a position that starts from a lie, ends in a lie, never diverts from the lie, refuses to recognize any facts contrary to his lie, and likewise refuses to present any facts of his own, only empty rhetoric like the above.

Awww come on now JohnB - don't be so hard on kirk...

He's a sensitive little fellow who's trying super hard to be relevant! lol

It's a major factor why I IGNORE him...

JoAnna: not sure you've had time with all of the whining you seem to need to constantly do, but did you catch NBC's piece tonight on the thousands of jobs going begging in this country because companies like Siemens can't find enough skilled workers (i.e. who have some basic math and science skills so they can be trained on specific equipment?) but slash and burn tactics persist on education budgets because education in wing nut minds is something only democrats support. See if in the midst of your rantings you can take some time out to connect the dots at some point.

John B, you always take one sentence and love to embellish while ignoring all the other stuff you cant seem to address and or dont like to hear. Just because you dont like what I have to say doesnt make it any less true and stop all of this stuff about no facts etc, as your spewing forth opinionated BS without any basis all of the time. As for Feisty, you ignore me because you hate being called out on the your BS. You should ignore me because you provide nothing but vitriol and shrill negative personal attacks which lowers your credibility to zero. Tell me one person on here in which you have provided intelligent critical thoughts and opinions in which they said wow Feisty you are right, now I respect you.

What facts? You link to NOTHING, provide NO back up for any of your assertions. That aside, what do facts have to do with my objection to your fictional characterization of what Liberals believe?

Your work consists of nothing more than Conservative propaganda, storytelling designed to portray a world as you wish it to be with no regard to facts. Facts are actually a hindrance, because the point isn't a pragmatic approach to finding real solutions for a real world. The point is to further the fiction that Conservative approaches actually work, and the 100 year legacy of pragmatic solutions they attack has been a failure.

I dont have a conservative propoganda what I have are fiscal conservative views from 26 years in the financial and business community along with being raised in a very small midwestern town as a child of small business owners. My facts are my experiences that were first hand experienced and my facts are living the fiscal behavior for 25 years. In addition, any time I have needed to link to facts you dont like I have. I link to the wall street journal extensively and quote authors or others that can be easily looked up. what you tend to do is focus on one opinion I make that you dont like and beat it up while convienently ignoring the facts and truths that you dont like. Take my comment on Wisconsin that you and Anna Molly conveniently ignore and never have addressed which is the WSJ and others continue to point to the fact that Walker's fiscal policies are working and why do you guys advocate union bargaining rights greater for wisconsin state employees over federal employees etc. So dont tell me I dont provide facts you just want to cherry pick the opinions you see as propaganda etc.

Yeah, that's the approach I'm talking about. "The fact that Walker's fiscal policies are working." You'd have trouble proving that based on, I don't know, ACTUAL facts as opposed to things you just choose to label as facts;

Wisconsin lost 12,500 private-sector jobs last month in the deepest single-month decline since the depths of the 2008-'09 recession, effectively annulling most of the previous month's gains.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/128016853.html

So, for a two month period the growth in private sector employment in Wisconsin is approximately zero, with an increasing unemployment rate while the national unemployment rate declined slightly.

THOSE are facts, and they are facts that contradict your own "factual statement" that "Walker's fiscal policies are working."

Michael L

Just to get the measure passed, the Democrats had to compromise and make half of it tax cuts,

That number goes up every time I read it. Politi-fact says that the tax cut portion of the Stimulus was a lot closer to 25%

I'll go ahead and stand at least partially corrected:

Here is the breakdown of the spending for the "stimulus" package of 2009:

Tax cuts & incentives: $288 Billion (37%)

State & local fiscal relief: $144 Billion (18%)

Federal spending: $357 Billion (45%)

While the tax cuts & incentives wasn't quite as high as the 50% I quoted earlier, it is over 1/3rd of the final bill. Since tax incentives are a highly inefficient use of dollars, it would have been better to have had that money go more direclty into infra structure. In fact, most of the "strimulus spending" was not really strimulative at all, but rather letting people keep on to their money (likely saving it for a rainy day), or bailing out the state budges.

All in all, the final stimulus bill was a mess of mixed-up priorities designed to do little moer than get through Congress.

Finally, the mistake by the Obama administration was not the stimulus bill itself (Other than caving into the push for tax cuts, rather than more direct stimulaus), but saying that unemployment wouldn't go above 8% if the bill was passed. That was simply a very bad tactical error, on the level of George HW Bush's "Read my lips, no new taxes." Any politician worth his or her salt knows that you should not make such a blatant promise that you have no guarantee of keeping, especially when much of the ability to keep the promise is out of your control.

Sorry for the double post again. This site is flaky and NO EDIT button again so I could no move one of them.

FIX IT.

You're big into stats navy boy: Here's some for you:

More Americans than forecast filed applications for unemployment benefits last week, signaling the labor market is struggling two years into the economic recovery.

Jobless claims climbed by 9,000 to 408,000 in the week ended Aug. 13, the highest in a month, Labor Department figures showed today . . . .

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-18/first-time-unemployment-claims-in-u-s-rise-more-than-estimated-to-408-000.html

"More Americans than forecast"? I guess that replaces the "Jobless claims 'unexpectedly' rose last week." Guess the newsies trying to cover up Obama's mistakes got tired of writing "unexpectedly".

I'm looking forward to the Presidents detailed jobs plans coming up after Labor Day. I think this is where he calls out the Republican-Tea Baggers and gets the American People to come down on his side as far as getting something done by Congress.

When you listen to these Republican-Tea Baggers, all you hear is the same talking points that they want to cut spending and intend to eliminate Social Security and Medicare. And, of course, their number one argument of cutting taxes and keeping the tax rates low for the so called job creators. Wow, that plan hasn’t worked and never will. Then you hear than come back and say that there are too many business regulations that hurt business. Well if you study history, you see that is nothing but a darn lie. For example, President Theodore Roosevelt who was a Progressive Reform Republican fought for union workers rights and forced many regulations on big business that protected workers rights while making business play by the rules for consumers.

We of course can’t forgot how these Republican-Tea Baggers are so focused on their so called social issue reforms to control Americans of all walks of life. However, no jobs are being created.

And we can’t forget that the racist hate of President Obama began long before he was elected President and continues. This is how the spin machine on the Right works. They are great at twisting the truth and getting the Tea Party minded folks to follow them.

Hopefully, the President will take off the gloves and challenge the Right Wing Extremist in front of the American People, and not take no for an answer. This action by the President will force these Extremist in Congress to put up or shut up and make them do what's right or force them to tell the American People NO to jobs.

The American People will rally and once again, We the People will be working with the President and shut the Right Wing Extremist and this Economic Mafia up, and force them to work with the President and do what they promised to do, and that is to create jobs.

Sorry for the double post again. This site is flaky and NO EDIT button again so I could no move one of them.

FIX IT.

So nice, you posted it twice.

But I hear you, Navy. You can always delete the content from one of them and leave some flaky, but charmingly amusing, message, just like I do. ;-)

Gotta love that Governor Kasich. At least he seems to have taken away the right message from Wisconsin, not to mention the 1.3 million that signed the petition for repealing that law.

Pity we can't get conservatives around here to grasp such a simple point.

You are stuttering Navy. Speech impediment? You know how to manipulate the site or delete and just put in xxx -- unless of course you are too busy trying to get your other cut & pastes with no original ideas at the top. You are so nervous that you have gone back to promoting lies from a link that has been proven wrong, wrong, wrong several times.

I am having fun watching progressives crap their pants. It is an amusing read every morning and a laugh to start my day. Thanks keep it up.

Golly job1 - the libbies on Morning Joe sure doesn't share either you enthusiasm or good cheer regarding the speech.

According to them, there just ain't much he can do.

THis is pretty cool - got my phone acting as a wireless hotspot. Frigging Baltimore airport charges for wifi, capitalist bastards. Bad new is plane delayed.

Thursday [it is Thursday, right?], it's 10:00 here, 7:00 my time and there is a bar 10 feet away. Oh, and I have no will power. :(

Anna Molly:

When I saw that last night I said "Yes". The people in Ohio have spoken and I hope the democrats there shove his Collective Bargaining Law right up his butt - sideways.

Wisconsin laid down the ground work and they should be proud. Now Ohio is picking up the ball and moving it down field into the red zone. Another touchdown in the making. Come this November all eyes will be on Ohio.

Ben-636050

You are stuttering Navy. Speech impediment? You know how to manipulate the site or delete and just put in xxx -- unless of course you are too busy trying to get your other cut & pastes with no original ideas at the top.

Like a typical right winger you know how to white wash topics and repeat nauseous, lying, FOX NOISE ECHO CHAMBER, talking points.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Anna Molly:

When I saw that last night I said "Yes". The people in Ohio have spoken and I hope the democrats there shove his Collective Bargaining Law right up his butt - sideways

Navy, I was overjoyed last night primarily because I know this guy is a product of FOX NOISE'S supposedly business channel.

I cracked up at the reverse robo calls Rachel showed .

Rick Scott Gets His PINK SLIP While He Makes Donuts! Make jobs, not donuts!

http://www.pinksliprick.com/node/4705

You gotta click, on the above link if you missed it last night; it is hilarious

Where's Rick Scott's Birth Certificate, Hmmm?

Riptide has heard several theories that Scott is the product of a demon father and alien mother who copulated on Mars and deposited the resulting egg deep in the core of the red planet. Allegedly, 13 months later, a fully formed Rick Scott emerged.

Scientists tell us that scenario is highly unlikely, but much like people who are convinced Obama was not born in America, we are completely undeterred by the facts.

We've also heard theories that Scott is actually a robot forged deep inside the secret artificial intelligence laboratory of a conservative think tank.

A scientist told us that is slightly more likely than the other scenario, but still probably not fact. The scientist then yelled at us for wasting his time and hung up.

Of course, Scott could put all of these theories to rest by simply producing a birth certificate -- one proving he is indeed human. A quick Google image search for Rick Scott's birth certificate reveals nothing, and as we all know, if it's not on the Internet, it probably doesn't exist. Why are you hiding your birth certificate, Scott? Hmmm?

http://www.pinksliprick.com/node/1755

SUCCESS: We robocalled Rick Scott!!!

Have fun Spanky.

Initial jobless claims were down 4 weeks in a row, but the first time that trend is interrupted the "Chief Economist of FR" jumps in to claim the sky is falling. Just proves, figures don't lie but Conservative liars figure.

Good morning.

Just as point of clarification on yesterday's thread on Super Pac's. I occurred to me that most posters knew nothing about them and how they came about.

These PACS came into existence as a result of the Citizens United v FEC decision.

Super PAC's fall under IRC section 501(c)4 entities, charitable organizations that promote "social welfare" in their communities. As charitable organizations, the anonymity is allowed. The term "social welfare" is highly ambiguous.

The IRS is currently attempting to redefine that term...social welfare. When they do, I suspect the Super PAcs will have to become 501(c)3 entities, where full disclosure is required.

Both D's and R's already have several large PACS already in existence and both sides have ones that are highly controversial. Just Google the info and you will see what I mean.

Hope this clears up some of the misconceptions. It's not about the men who started them....they already are the behind the scenes guys in both parties and have been for years. It's the size of the contribution

As we all know...size matters.

@ JoAnna ~ I have to ask you what would one reasonably expect now that public sector layoffs have begun to kick in for many states with the expiration of the stimulus money.

The private sector still refuses to create jobs, citing the need to increase "productivity" (i.e., reducing workforce to increase profit); and now the public sector has joined the game, including just for example the 3,400 public workers laid off in Wisconsin in June, notwithstanding Walker's promise that, if they just did what he said quietly, he could save those jobs. Then you have the 130,000 public sector layoffs in the works for Texas, as another example.

And whose fault is it again, that Texas has to lay off so many workers to balance its own budget?

But sure as shootin' (and I didn't pick that metaphor by accident), Perry will blame Obama when Texas's unemployment numbers go up.

Citing statistics without trying to make any sense out of what they mean is dangerous and misleading business, JoAnna. In short, right down your alley.

But just for fun:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/18/news/economy/unemployment_benefits/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

Overall, the four-week moving average of initial claims -- calculated to smooth out volatility -- fell by 3,500 to 402,500 in the latest week.

"Chief Economist of FR" jumps in to claim the sky is falling

Which one?

They do appear to be multiplying rapidly... lol

lmao......... The gimme gimme gang of 14 sound like a rendition of Custers last rah rah speech before the Little Big Horn...... All right men, contrary to what you beleive......there are NO Indians with in 40 miles! We can just ride down there and have our way with the small group docile indians down there..... How about it.....you with me? After were done.....FREE popcorn with lots of butter, Except for pvt feisty and navybouy you have been put on the cellulite reduction program, your horses have been complaining!

Ben 636050:

The edit button did not appear this morning until later. Believe me I know how to move a post and you have bitched about it before when I have done it.

Grow up is that he best you got. You did not disprove one thing I wrote in my post? Why is that??

I will post what I want, when I want and how I want and I do not give a rat's A$$ what you think - PERIOD.

Navy.

Question:

What did you think of the problems along the border with Israel and Egypt today.

Part of the country that has been quiet for eons.

Buses, convoys and private cars attacked and ambushed. Six killed.

Sounds a lot like Iraq or Afghanistan, doesn't it?

Breaks the treaty between Egypt and Israel if the Egyptians don't go after who is behind it.

Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Queda, radicals, Hammas...

No claims yet..

Yours and everyone else's take, please.

Just another question:

If things are really slow in August, and with the Presidents poll numbers tanking...wouldn't it have been a good idea to release his new jobs/economic plan now for the Amercan people to read while there's no noise in the background.

His people can explain it....or give an overview....he comes out with the details after labor Day...if business likes it, they may start to hire...now.

It would force Perry's and Bachmnn to explain why they don't like it...they don't want revenue increases...which the American people are for...all good for Obama.

Why the wait...it's the dog days of August...make some news the American people might like.

@ Ira ~ I give your earlier post (2.12) a definite "10"

;-)

ότι εξακολουθεί να είναι η καρδιά μου

The Justice Department is going after S&P for their hand in the 2008 mortgage crash saying that they were paid off by those offering inferior products to give them higher than appropriate ratings knowing they were not safe investments but in fact were junk status.

Oh...It's worse than that...check out this little nugget:

Standard & Poor’s was the most aggressive of the three agencies, however. And on January 16, 2003, four days after the Georgia General Assembly convened, it dropped a bombshell. Because of the state’s new Fair Lending Act, S&P said that it would no longer allow mortgage loans originated in Georgia to be placed in mortgage securities that it rated. Moody’s and Fitch soon followed with similar warnings.

It was a critical blow. S&P’s move meant Georgia lenders would have no access to the securitization money machine; they would either have to keep the loans they made on their own books, or sell them one by one to other institutions. In turn, they made it clear to the public that there would be fewer mortgages funded, dashing “the dream” of homeownership.

It was an untenable situation for the lenders who had grown addicted to the securitization money spigot. With S&P shutting it off to abusive lenders, it was only a matter of time before the Fair Lending Act was dead.

To Brennan and other consumer advocates, it was a shocking and devastating moment in the battle against predatory lending. “We were stunned when we saw the press release,” Brennan said. “We thought, where does this come from?”

Standard & Poor’s said it was taking action because the new law created liability for any institution that participated in a securitization containing a loan that might be considered predatory. If a Wall Street firm purchased loans that ran afoul of the law and placed them in a mortgage pool, the firm could be liable under the law. Ditto for investors who bought into the pools.

“Transaction parties in securitizations, including depositors, issuers and servicers, might all be subject to penalties for violations under the Georgia Fair Lending Act,” S&P’s press release explained.

It ended with a warning: “Standard & Poor’s will continue to monitor this and other pending predatory lending legislation.” In other words, any states that might have been considering strengthening their predatory lending laws as Georgia did should beware.

Besides, Navy your post was good enough to post twice.

Freedom of speech is not dead as much as the righties claim that only their free speech matters. Anyone that doesn't like it has the freedom not to read anything on First Read.

I skip post all the time that I just see that they just post the same hate, same lies day after day. I admire the other liberals being able to read and answer those post.

So don't like Navy's post, don't read it.

John B-

Since a level below 400K in weekly jobless claims is associated with payroll growth, fluctuations above the 400K level are merely variations in the level of pain endured by America's unemployed.

For the last four months, new weekly jobless claims have come in at a level associated with real growth in U.S. payrolls just once.

That is the context for today's new jobless claims figure...yet again above the level associated with real job growth in the economy.

Any attempt to spin the job creation numbers since the beginning of the 2nd quarter in a positive fashion is a cynical misrepresentation of the real truth about the trend in the unemployment numbers.

And, the real truth is something far different than your spin, John B.

The numbers are bad, and have been for months.

@ Ira ~

All right, if you actually want serious, the Egypt thing is exactly what I've been afraid of.

You can say what you want about Mubarack, but he didn't forget the Treaty.

Add that to the rising violence in Iraq, and I'd say we may be in for a few jolts on the foreign policy front in the coming months.

So, three reasons why private companies are not hiring and sitting on their money. Health Care Reform to fully take effect in 2014, the massive Financial Regulation bill that companies cannot understand (because it is still being defined) what it will cost them, and the continued attacks from the administration and the left on corporate america for making too much money and not paying their fair share of taxes to support the US population.

What company in their right mind would expand in the US faced with these things?

Repeal the HCR and Financial Regulation Bill, Overhaul the tax code reducing corporate rates and eliminate all these loop hole deductions, Quit demonizing them for making money, and make all these things permanent. You will see these companies begin to hire and expand.

We need to do this now, we are looking at at least 4 or 5 more years of this mess minimum. Longer if something does not change soon in Washington.

Mixed..

There was absolutely no good economic news today, job growth being part of that.

Name it, growth, consumer spending, the outlook for the next year....just awful.

The market is down 419 points just on todays news.

Re: my post above. How does putting out the Obama jobs/economic plan now hurt not help?

Repeal the HCR and Financial Regulation Bill, Overhaul the tax code reducing corporate rates and eliminate all these loop hole deductions, Quit demonizing them for making money, and make all these things permanent. You will see these companies begin to hire and expand.

CLASS WARFARE!!!!!! The last refuge of the greedy who have run out of excuses for why they should have more and more while others have less and less.

If you can find one piece of statistical evidence that what you propose has any hope of creating jobs in the long term, then you're doing a darn sight better than any economist out there. They certainly can't produce any such evidence.

What there IS evidence for is that large corporations in particular aren't creating jobs not because their feelings are hurt, but rather because they figured out how to make it without creating any. And if they can talk the American people into feeding them even more money by taking it away from senior citizens and sick people, so much the better. It's all just gravy to them.

As for overhauling the tax code, what Republicans seem to keep proposing is overhauls that are "revenue neutral"? Tell me, if you can, what's the point of that.

Ira: How does putting out the Obama jobs/economic plan now hurt not help?

The plan isn't complete before it has been extensively focus group tested. Remember, this is not a "Jobs/Economic Plan", we already have plenty of those things. Instead it's an "Obama Re-election Plan", so the wording has to be properly vetted to blame the right people.

Joanna...

C'mon...wouldn't you rather read about where Newt, the Romney's and the Obama's are vacationing, about bus rides and now creationism.

Those posts get 6 pages of responses.

Serious, factual issues which require thought, 50 responses on a good day.

Can't blame FR for giving the posters what they want.

Wait..I just saw Navy got 7 votes for explaining why he double posted.

Honest!

Ira: Wait..I just saw Navy got 7 votes for explaining why he double posted

Yeah, and I bet I could pick the seven (dwarfs).

And Joanna this just proves how you, and many others, don't care about what's said, only who says it. If you remember to shut your mouth once in a while and open your ears, you might hear something that sounds tolerable or even productive. If you hate the ideas when the plan comes out, then bash it then, but bashing it pre-emptively only shows how closed-minded you are to anything the President has to say.

That's why there is no point in arguing any of these things...when people have already made up their minds.

3tgR: That's why there is no point in arguing any of these things...when people have already made up their minds.

The Washington Post, a fine of news organization there is to leak information to, has stated the president will propose the following:

The president is thinking about proposing tax cuts for companies that hire workers, new spending for roads and construction, and other measures that would target the long-term unemployed, according to administration officials and other people familiar with the matter. Some ideas, such as providing mortgage relief for struggling homeowners, could come through executive action.

Obama also plans to announce a major push for new deficit reduction, urging the special congressional committee formed in the debt-ceiling deal this month to identify even more savings than the $1.5 trillion it has been tasked with finding.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-issue-new-proposals-on-job-creation-debt-reduction/2011/08/17/gIQALaG9KJ_story.html

Sure sounds a lot like a rehash of his old ideas, doesn't it?

What Obama is doing is asking for even more spending. Spending on the same things he has spent in the past, but on the same things that have failed to stimulate the economy. So what's different this time? And do you think the Congress, or the country, is in the mood for billions more in deficit spending? Probably not, correct? So that makes this Obama's platform for the 2012 election.

"What there IS evidence for is that large corporations in particular aren't creating jobs not because their feelings are hurt, but rather because they figured out how to make it without creating any. And if they can talk the American people into feeding them even more money by taking it away from senior citizens and sick people, so much the better. It's all just gravy to them.

As for overhauling the tax code, what Republicans seem to keep proposing is overhauls that are "revenue neutral"? Tell me, if you can, what's the point of that."

Not that it matters, but I will respond. It’s all about providing some security and certainty in the business environment. Removing HCR and the Financial regulation bill will remove the uncertainty for businesses of the government interfering in their operations. I never said they had their feelings hurt, they are not going to expand due to the uncertainty of the cost of doing business. Tax reform, whether its revenue neutral or not is not the issue, again, it is about having some certainty of the cost of doing business going forward. This administration has created an extremely uncertain environment for business to operate in, hence they are sitting on the sidelines waiting to see how this all plays out.

The numbers are bad, and have been for months.

Yes, in fact all the trends turned negative shortly after Republicans took over the House of Representatives. When will Conservatives stop blocking tax breaks for small business? When will the Tea Party stop protecting oil speculators whose greed slows the economy? When will GOP leaders realize the American economy is NOT "a hostage worth taking"?

John B, Des Moines, IA..

C'mon John...for real?

Is that why Obama has a plan to be introduced after Labor Day to get the economy moving? He is staking a second term on it. Stop with the talking points....the economy is near stagnation....stalled...job outlook not improved....housing, not improved, GDP, declining, debt as a percentage of GDP near 100%.

Yeah, the TP, all 60 of them did this all by themselves? How about the POTUS can't figure a way to move us forward and hopefully this plan will help.

Not everything is about the TP.....it's about ideas and leadership. I for one, would like to see some.

Ira Lapin,

I'm not Navy, but regarding the bus attack. I believe that the uncalled for terrorist attack on the buses is in retaliation for Israel's latest plans to increase more settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. New construction there is, in my opinion, a bad idea for all parties except for the land developers.

The attacks were from Gaza so I would guess that Hamas was responsible. The Israeli's think the same as they have bombed Gaza in retaliation.

Regarding Obama's plans or leadership and the GOP/Tea Party resistance yes they are helping to thwart the Democrats but that is just one reason why things aren't improving. I guess I'm seeing more about the inter connectivity of world markets.

I don't think any plans will turn our course around.

So...

Which is it, John B?

"Initial jobless claims were down 4 weeks in a row..."

But still, except for one week, above the level associated with payroll growth.

That's spin, John...pure and simple.

It has nothing to do with reality.

Good luck convincing voters that the Obama Administration's policies on jobs and the economy since President Obama's inauguration in January, 2009 have been completely negated by a House Republican majority that took office in January, 2011.

He's the President of the United States.

They control ONE of the two Houses of Congress.

Democrats still have the Senate and the White House.

Sixty-or-so members of the House Tea Party caucus (out of 435 House members) and their colorful supporters, have co-opted the White House and the Democratic Senate...including President Obama AND his "bully pulpit".

How is that even possible?

Who's to blame for that, John B?

Yellowdog-Mark D..

Thanks..

Posted a comment on the next thread...

It's not all about Gaza....there are huge concerns now about a porous Egyptian border.....

Agree...new construction is VERY bad idea if there is ever a chance of bringing stability to that region.

Thinking back weeks ago....you think there's going to ever be a chance of Israel going back to the '67 borders after raids like this? American talking points for starting negotiations gone. As long as there are terrorists determined to destroy the State of Israel then the situation stays the same.

The people of Israel have to be furious as we would if it happened to us.

Ira-

I guess we better hope that the Egyptian military goes after the perpetrators.

I can't believe that the top Egyptian military leadership isn't alarmed by this attack.

This is the last thing they need.

Mixed..

No one seems alarmed about the raid, the economy....August I'm told..

You would think the Egyptian military would have patrols posted to seal the border.

As you say....this is the last thing they need. Imagine if the west thought they were condoning it by looking the other way or they are being influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood...etc, etc.

So you think the Obama's will have the Romney's over BBQ?

Not that it matters, but I will respond. It’s all about providing some security and certainty in the business environment

So Apple, with $70 billion in the bank, feels "insecure"? Tell that to Social Security recipients.

it is about having some certainty of the cost of doing business going forward. This administration has created an extremely uncertain environment for business to operate in, hence they are sitting on the sidelines waiting to see how this all plays out.

When they get their way, you mean, like when we were children and told to stay at the table until we ate our peas.

I won that battle, and never had to eat any peas.

And, "not that it matters," but you might do me the honor of reading this:

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/18/how-washington-is-destroying-the-economy/?iid=HP_LN

I'm just a liberal and obviously don't know what I'm talking about. But these folks have some idea.

We need more jobs, more growth, and more tax revenue. Note that I said more revenue, not higher rates. There are lots of proposals kicking around that would cut rates, eliminate the alternative minimum tax, and broaden the tax base by drastically reducing itemized deductions. Only about a third of taxpayers, primarily higher-income types, itemize deductions, so only they would be affected. Do this right, and you end up with more tax revenue from high-income people (which allows the "tax the rich" types to be happy) but lower rates (which lets the Tea Party folks claim victory). Making the system fairer should be doable.

On the entitlement front, we modify Social Security and Medicare formulas, imposing higher costs on higher-end retirees (which would include me, should I ever retire). What's in it for the right-wing fanatics? Those programs' projected costs drop. For liberal wingnuts? They can claim victory because people are living longer than when these programs were introduced and will collect more benefits over their lifetime than originally intended.

Just some thoughts that don't involve just sitting on your hands waiting to see how it all shakes out. Because if you do that, it most assuredly won't.

Ira,

Perhaps you weren't around earlier when I revealed some 'sinister' personal things about me a couple of months ago. I am not, but my grandfather was a Sephardic Jew by way of Spain/Mexico to Texas. My wife's sister is married to a Palestinian. I have Tea Party cousins who happen to be evangalicals who only support Israel because the Bible says they will be blessed if they do so. Privately they don't care for Israel's survival but wait instead for the eventual part it plays in the "end of days prophecies"?

I've made the mistake to ask fervent liberal posters to act civil and tone down on attacking the right wingers. I've made the huge sin of speaking about my faith on occasion.

You joke with the conservatives that the liberals attack you. Believe me Sir I understand what you mean.

By the way vacationed with my brother in law a month ago. I had a few pleasant, vigourous debates about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict with him and his family that despite our opposing "sides" were much more civilized than half of the posts here.

As with most issues there are always two sides and many viewpoints. I think it is hard for the US to try to impose border solutions on a tightly contested area that is smaller than some of our smallest US states (thinking Vermont here?) Border concerns will not allow the majority of the Israeli population to accept the 1967 borders. Ceding parts of the Old City or east Jerusalem is a non starter. I don't have any answers, but I do know that people living in terrible conditions deserve a peaceful solution and their own country. Unfortunately Hamas or other militants will continue to exploit Israel's misteps regarding construction. It seems to me that Hamas has to be delegitamized amongst the Palestinians just as they have been shunned by the world. How? (Shrugs shoulders). With Hamas out of the picture perhaps a compromising Fatah can forge an agreement with Israel.

Ira-

"So you think the Obama's will have the Romney's over BBQ?"

lol

Oh my.

Wouldn't that be fun?

Too bad it'll never happen.

I'd love to listen in.

Alien intelligences colliding.

Anna Molly,

Your prediction about foreign policy taking up some news times is correct. Now that its August and no Congress in session, I predict R congressmen will demand that Obama do something about Syria, until he does something about Syria.

Not one for adding to our intervention in the middle east, but Obama should be diplomatically lighting a fire under the Arab League's backside. Propose your sanctions but don't redo a chest beating contest like in Libya. That only makes it easier for the US to get invovled militarily so as to not lose face. Let the Arab league do something to stop Assad.

Mixed...'

LOL funny...

Republicans have a 21% approval rating on their handling of the debt ceiling crisis they created. They have a disapproval rate of 59%, an all time record. The Tea Party is less popular with the American public than Islam or Atheism.

Tell me again voters aren't capable of connecting the dots.

Yellowdog-Mark D..

Your story is like my story.

My dad came from Poland to Mexico to the US and then to NY. His family came one at a time, father, oldest son to youngest daughter, followed by his mother. They were lucky. They were the only ones in the family that escaped the war. One brother had TB and was left behind with relatives. They were all killed. Having grown up around that, it stuck with me and now into my 60's, I am really sensitive about it. I and my cousins are the last ones left to tell the story. It escapes the children.

Being attacked by either side because of your religion, especially liberals who, be definition should be more tolerant, is not uncommon here. Unfortunately...we haven't evolved that much.

I too agree that the Palestinians deserve a home, just as the Jews deserved a home, and until the Arab nations that support the terrorists among the refugees are forced to stop....this will go on forever.

Hamas needs to be forced out of power....but they have the support of the Palestinian people. How do you win the hearts and minds of people who are being bombed in retaliation for acts of terror. It's all circular at this point.

As usual, great talking to you.

...and a great post...

"Tell me again voters aren't capable of connecting the dots."

Oh, they can connect the dots alright, John B.

They connected them as recently as Election Day last November.

Just don't assume that they'll connect the dots that you want connected, in the way you want them connected, John.

Yes, and had Republicans made any effort whatsoever to come through on their promise of "jobs, jobs, jobs" they might still be popular. Now none of the new Tea Party governors would win in a rematch, the Republican Party has a 59% disapproval rating, and Atheism has a higher approval rating than the Tea Party.

Looks to me like I have no reason to question how people are connecting those dots.

Tell me Bill, how many supply side Economists received a Nobel Prize? Just asking.

Of course the Prize itself is worthless, because it's given by a European Foundation. A Foundation, who's world renowned members have no knowledge or understanding of the subject matter they give prizes for. I'm sure that's the reasoning of Teapublicans.

I'm more inclined to listen to Krugman than a charletan like Art Laffer, but that's me I live in the real world.

Someone had a extra helping of that broccoli he's so fond of last night...

Talk about a dump!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Wake me when you done will ya Mr. Me First?

how many supply side Economists received a Nobel Prize?

Ummm, those smart (and completely objective) Europeans gave Obama a Nobel Prize too. So what's your point?

Nice post Bill. Now we'll get the LibsR Us crowd trying to tear this down with their inane BS. IR started below with some rant about Christian Domination, I'm waiting for Navy to tell him "Kudos" like he always does. Feisty will be coming soon with some snarky comment about somebody being on their knees and corn dogs or broccoli like that has anything to do with this except in her small and wicked mind.

How are they going to respond to the town hall attended by Maxine Waters where the people went crazy?? How will they answer the question they asked about why didn't the bus tour go to the black communities so BHO could hear from them about their 16+% unemployment rate. My guess is more Kudos and corn dogs and nothing of substance from these inconsequential people.

PS market down now 200+. Nice going Mr. President. Enjoy your vacation with the rich and famous.

Wake me when you done will ya Mr. Me First?

Time to rise and shine Miss Feisty, cuz I've saved that second helping of broccoli just for you.

cuz I've saved that second helping of broccoli just for you.

As long as it's topped with a creamy lemony hollandaise sauce - I'm in! ;o)

Mmmm...

PS: Thanks for the wake-up call! lol

Again Bill, how many Supply Side Economists even sit on an International Economics Society Board, just asking?

And by the way let's stop trying to confuse the issue, OH that's right your a Teapublican, you have no creditable answers so you try and change the subject to another talking point. I hope your were never a member of a debate society, cause you and the rest of the Teapublicans are classic fails.

Bullying and obfuscation only work on the weak and ignorant, and I ain't the one. So when you can come up with an Economist with half way decent credentials maybe I'll give him a look see, but until then I'll keep amusing myself with you Teapublicans.

Lucious,

So you like Krugman... what about his latest take on the invading aliens? Here's a blip (I can't post links but the story is easily found). Yeah, living in the real world.

If we discovered that, you know, space aliens were planning to attack and we needed a massive buildup to counter the space alien threat and really inflation and budget deficits took secondary place to that, this slump would be over in 18 months. And then if we discovered, oops, we made a mistake, there aren’t any aliens, we’d be better off.

Gee Bill -

You mean I could develop and market a "basketball on a stick" and be an overnight success; able to pay millions of dollars in taxes and pull the entire country out of the economic mess we face today?

If only it was that simple. I think their still has to be a demand for the product.

Fiesty I wish you would have woke me up last night. mad thumb had me so worked up I had to get in the shower and knock one out.

Krell, you ever heard of an analogy. I guess your just another Medival Tea Bagger.

Bill - stating the obvious to a Keynesian believer is like trying to convert a Muslim to Christianity, or vice versa. The ONLY thing they believe is government spurs economic growth. Forget the examples stated in your post of taking a risk for a non-established product based on what's selling due to popularity. For some reason that concept flies over their heads and causes massive confusion. If the government isn't driving the economy, Keynesian thinkers will dispute any and all means of common sense.

I enjoyed reading your post. It was very understandable and makes perfect sense... common sense. Unfortunately, around here, a certain ideoligical group, lacks a significant amount of it.

Luscious - so your conclusion is - Krell has to be a teabagger because he demonized your Krugman admiration? Is this your solution to all debate? When you are on the losing side, resort to namecalling?

You mean I could develop and market a "basketball on a stick" and be an overnight success

Only if you could find enough people dumb enough to buy it. Thanks for your penetrating commentary.

DummyD - Of course there has to be a demand for a product. Bill's post did not elude to a lack of demand. Take the Camaro example... the demand was based on the sales of other sports cars... and gaining market share to the advantage of GM. I don't understand what your argument is based on. Demand has to be there or a product fails... like the Volt is failing due to lack of demand.

Brian, Keynesian Economics is a little to difficult for you eh. The premise of Keynesian economics is that during periods when there is a lack of demand the government spurs demand by buying goods and services and putting cash into the hands of consumers; thereby, giving the Macro Economy a jump start. After all growth is a product of consumption not supply.

Of course I'm sure that it goes against a Teapublicans Daffy Duck philosophy, "Mine, Mine, Mine all Mine", just saying.

Forgive Lucious. He has apparently never heard of the little country called Greece.

Nor, it would seem is he aware of the lesson of Europe.

But he is right Krugman did win him a Nobel. The requirements for that are super hard, as shown by Obama. What did he do to earn his Nobel again?

Bill,

You make business owners sound like precosious children. If the landscape changes, as it has innumeral times in our county's history, these businesses will adapt or die. And rightfully so. ACA is going to improve our country as a whole and productivity for businesses. Environmental regulations are in place to ensure that the citizens are healthy enough to be productive.

If these companies can't adapt and profit, regardless of changes in landscape, than they should fold. Real entrepreneurs will prosper under changing circumstances.

and what company would spend all this money developing new products (supply side) when consumenr confidence and spending is so low? That's just silly. We need to put people back to work so they, once again, have purchasing power. A WPA like program, focused on infrastructure would be a god-sent at this point. and, a much needed upgrade (which will in turn make business easier.)

Just like the Flat Earth Society, religious devotees of the one truth--Supply Side economics deny all the things their "science" doesn't explain.

Why aren't we exploding out of recession when tax rates are at a 50 year low?

How did we fall into recession in the first place after the miracle of tax cuts was unleashed?

How will we deal with the reality that Conservative economic principles has plunged us into deficit hell?

Why can't your religion explain numerous periods when economic growth went up after taxes were increased?

Brianb-999431

DummyD - Of course there has to be a demand for a product. Bill's post did not elude to a lack of demand. Take the Camaro example... the demand was based on the sales of other sports cars... and gaining market share to the advantage of GM. I don't understand what your argument is based on. Demand has to be there or a product fails... like the Volt is failing due to lack of demand.

you should talk to Bill (above) he states "If you build it they will come...." demand be damned....

Well, Luscious, there have been more than a few.

Milton Friedman in 1976. Gary Becker in 1992. Robert Lucas in 1995-(he was a convert. He was pretty skeptical; actually started his work to explain the fallacies of the hypothesis, and wound up proving it). Robert A. Mundell, the godfather of supply side economics, in 1999. Most recently, Edward Prescott, in 2004.

Next question?

To be honest, all BS aside, I really don't care what your politics are, it's more a matter of your critical reasoning skills that I'm interested in.

As, with Brian's, Camaro example, which made since until he threw in the Volt reference. The problem with the Volt is it's a new technology and in limited production. Let's try another analogy.

When home computers first came on the market few were bought because of the price and the consumer was unsure of the technology, after it was proven sound tech, the price came down and further improvements occured they took off like hot cakes.

So by analogy the Volt being new Tech and expensive for it's size (Americans are size conscious) it's sales will probably be slow until it's prov en to the market to be a reliable vehicle.

And Spanky, Greece and the rest of Europe are so interlocked economically that many economies suffering from poor economic conditions reverberates amoungs them all, (See European Union by way of reference).

The premise of Keynesian economics is that during periods when there is a lack of demand the government spurs demand by buying goods and services and putting cash into the hands of consumers; thereby, giving the Macro Economy a jump start

Based on the latest GDP numbers for our economy, tell us how that's been working out.

growth is a product of consumption not supply

Supply must exist before consumption can ensue. And interesting new supply can spur more consumption vis a vis uninteresting old supply -- which is why lots of folks buy new cars, even though their current model still has lots of life left in it.

Oh, and DummyD- if you marketed you basketball on a stick properly, you'd sell it.

Ever hear of pet rocks? They sold like hotcakes during Carter's stagflation era.

Well NJNB, I thank you for being a good researcher and presenting solid facts for change.

Bill, you're obviously on to something, evidenced by the complete lack of counter arguments coming from the usual suspects. Nice job! And interesting post, too. Thanks for something to chew on this morning.

Geez Bill, Suppliers do market research to see what consumers will want to purchase before they even enter into business and invest in supply, at least the more successful ones do. They count on pent up demand to sell their products. Why would you have a product you couldn't sell. Or are relying on the impulse buyer, which is market created demand. In the end a free market can sell very little with out consumer demand.

Lucious, this comment intrigues me

Brian, Keynesian Economics is a little to difficult for you eh. The premise of Keynesian economics is that during periods when there is a lack of demand the government spurs demand by buying goods and services and putting cash into the hands of consumers; thereby, giving the Macro Economy a jump start. After all growth is a product of consumption not supply."

The reason- our government has been doing this very thing- buying goods & putting cash directly in the hands of consumers, for decades, especially heavily during the Reagan years, yet the very process is demonized by the left. It's called defense contracts. Every time we buy a bomber or an air craft carrier, we spur private sector growth, right? Yet Team Donkey is kicking and screaming about how wasteful the defense budget is. So which is it? Good because the government is investing directly in the private sector economy, or bad because we're spending too much on defense?

Suzy, I'm having a blast all by my lonesome. This a very stimulating debate on Economics and it's fun.

Bill (above) he states "If you build it they will come...." demand be damned....

First, you misquote me. Second, you completely misrepresent my position.

Carry on.

Brian, Keynesian Economics is a little to difficult for you eh. The premise of Keynesian economics is that during periods when there is a lack of demand the government spurs demand by buying goods and services and putting cash into the hands of consumers; thereby, giving the Macro Economy a jump start. After all growth is a product of consumption not supply.

Of course I'm sure that it goes against a Teapublicans Daffy Duck philosophy, "Mine, Mine, Mine all Mine", just saying.

Yeah Luscious, I'm so very impressed with Keynesian economics so far... it's worked wonderfully, hasn't it? We are so much better off today than we were 2 years ago as Obama was taking that $1.2 TRILLION stimulus and Omnibus bill and working his magic. How much more stimulus would it have taken to really get us deeper in debt? The obvious escapes you, doesn't it? The stimulus did NOT work. Take a look at the stock market... just today alone it's almost -500. Keynesian economics is a total crock of BS... we are living it's example right now. Do you really have those thick blinders over your eyes, or is being a name calling liberal something that was spiked into your skull?

Luscious, any democrat talking about critical thinking skills is ridiculous. 53% of you think Obama is doing a good job on the economy- 60% think he's doing a great job creating jobs.

Rational is not one of your hallmarks- nor is critical thinking.

The answer to the question "does supply create demand, or does demand create supply" is yes.

You have a calculator? Just about everybody does. Thirty five years ago, those little four function jobbies cost more than anyone was willing to pay. Increasing the supply brought down the price, and demand rose to meet it. They got so cheap, in fact, that they became giveaways.

You have an iPod or other MP3 player? Most people do. There were other ways to listen to music- remember the Walkman? The "personal CD player"? Displaced by a new technology- as CDs displaced records.

These are just a couple of examples of supply creating demand.

Demand for food is always going to be dependent on supply, because food is about the most elastic of goods. When the price of apples rises due to short supply, the rate of demand drops.

Keynesian economics is based on a very simplistic model- that the gap in GDP that arises during periods of economic downturns can be filled with government spending, thereby erasing the productivity gap and evening the slope.

It doesn't work. It has not worked in the past, does not work now, and will never woke, because it ignores too many elements of economic downturns.

In fact, it exacerbates them. We are dealing with that exacerbation now, as inflation is rising, pushing prices of commodities upward- thereby decreasing the very thing it is meant to increase- demand.

Ronald Reagan was able to break the back of inflation, increase supply, and herald an economic expansion- not surprising, since he had a degree in economics. No one knows what Obama's undergraduate degree is in, but I can assure you of one thing. . .

It sure isn't economics. Considering that he calls those earning $200,000 a year millionaires and billionaires, I don't think he passed third grade math.

When home computers first came on the market few were bought because of the price and the consumer was unsure of the technology, after it was proven sound tech, the price came down and further improvements occured they took off like hot cakes.

You completely miss the point. The issue isn't that home computers didn't sell well when they first came out due to pricing and other factors, the issue is folks didn't even know they might want a home computer until they were invented. It was the supply of this intriguing new technology that created a demand for it.

Suzy, I don't disagree with your argument on a basic level. Yes, defense spending is an expenditure that provides stimulus to a portion of the Economy, and a good portion I might add. However, the Democratic argument against the War Industry is the same one given by Eisenhower. That being said the basic premise is based on the notion of "Guns or Butter", which dictates that there is a choice of more guns and less butter or more butter less guns.

I personally have nothing against military modernization, being former military myself, I do believe that we pay to much for the little we get and that some of the funds could be used for domestic modernization programs. I roads and bridges are crumbling are schools are becoming booth inside and out second and third world.

So the choice is simple do we spend every thing on the Military-Industrial Complex or do we spend a good portion of our funds on our domestic needs "Guns or Butter". Both create jobs and can make us better off as a nation, but look at the Roman Empire, how did they fair with more guns than butter.

Suppliers do market research to see what consumers will want to purchase before they even enter into business and invest in supply, at least the more successful ones do

No quarrel from me there. But no amount of paper studies can guarantee the success of the product a business may be contemplating to sell. At the end of the day, they take a risk when marketing a new product. Their decision to take that risk may be informed by consumer studies, but it's the real world action of consumers actually buying (or not) that ultimately spells success or failure.

Bill if I missed your point, you're going to have to lay it out for me. What I understood: if you lessen regulation and tax, companies will build new products to buy, which will create jobs.

I counter with why would anyone create new products when the products we have today aren't selling? it makes no sense to me. If you want to clarify go ahead....

Bill it was the Marketing that created the demand.

As, with Brian's, Camaro example, which made since until he threw in the Volt reference. The problem with the Volt is it's a new technology and in limited production. Let's try another analogy.

When home computers first came on the market few were bought because of the price and the consumer was unsure of the technology, after it was proven sound tech, the price came down and further improvements occured they took off like hot cakes.

So by analogy the Volt being new Tech and expensive for it's size (Americans are size conscious) it's sales will probably be slow until it's prov en to the market to be a reliable vehicle.

Luscious - The volt is premature. The technology isn't primed yet. Batteries for the vehicle are extremely heavy and short lived. They only get a 200 mile range before recharging. Recharge times are way too slow. The infrastructure to take the vehicle on a trip isn't there yet. This is the horse and buggy version of the electric car. It's way overpriced for consumption. The people haven't bought into it for the reasons I just stated... therefore demand is stagnant.

As technology improves the performance and the electric vehicle becomes more viable, the demand will increase... providing the electric grid will be able to sustain the amount of recharges done nationwide in a given day.

The problem with the Volt, as I see it... is the push by this administration to purchase it. Even with a $7500 tax credit, it's way too costly. If the government would get out of the way, the electric vehicle will develop at a natural pace and it will eventually become the car of choice.

All new electronics are expensive at first but that doesn't stop the wealthy from purchasing them. Beta Max, when it first came out, was over $1000 a unit. Now you can get DVD players for $30. As each new platform is developed, it's always more expensive at first... then as demand rises, price goes down. Blu-Ray players are the latest toy... and they have dropped in price dramatically since their release.

Bill, tell me this do you buy stuff just because some one has it to sell or because you either need or want it?

You're getting there, Luscious. Now, stay with me. . .

If there were no new product, (home commuter, MP3, whatever), what, exactly, would be marketed?

Bill it was the Marketing that created the demand.

Question: just what was that marketing campaign promoting?

Answe: new SUPPLY.

Bill --

Your argument on "Supply Side" neglects the fact that it is the taxpayer that assumes most of the risks of innovation. For every one great innovation thousands have failed. The losses are socialized. We, "the middle class", are saturated at this point both with the dumping of losses by business and Wall Street. Hence the loss of trillions of dollars over the past 10 years and nothing to show for it. Was the housing crisis a product of innovation????? There is some merit in your view but it is based in a single ideology. There is a time and place for everything in other words. Innovation needs incentives nothing else.

SS Well, being the very last of the boomers what ever happens will effect me. Tweaks (end the death benefit of $255) are necessary and argument for raising the cap is the actuaries call. A balance between the ability to pay those increased benefits and cut off thus increasing the possibility of it being a tax to those at the upper end. Raising the age is what all sides will propose I hold no delusions there. For those yelling to end it altogether, well at this point it would be grand theft, sorry. We need to look at everything.

John A. -- Chamber of Commerce = Businesses Union : ) Not crazy for any fundamentalists in anything.

JoAnna -- I have to wonder if your married......

You were getting so close, Luscious. . .

Henry Ford once said that, if he had asked his customers what they wanted, they would have responded, "a faster horse".

Nobody asked people if they wanted downloadable music- nobody asked people if they wanted CDs rather than records. Innovators took a chance, came up with a completely new product, introduced it to the market, and people decided that these things would improve their lives.

People make decisions about new technology and new products based on their judgment that such will improve their satisfaction in life. Economists measure this in units of "utils" of satisfaction- normally measured against the dollar amount of such things. Thus, an iPod measures more utils of satisfaction than the hundred or so dollars of cost.

But, I digress. Demand often increases supply of the most elastic goods- like food, while supply increases the demand for more inelastic goods.

And Keynesian economics fails every single time it is implemented, as it does nothing to achieve its end- that is, increased demand- and actually exacerbates the problems it is meant to address, by putting cost pressure on goods, increasing inflation, and causing a decrease in the rate of demand for commodity goods, and a decrease in demand for disposable goods.

If you can mot look at unemployment, rising inflation, and shrinking GDP to see the proof of this, no one can help you. Belief in the Santa Claus of John Meynard Keynes is something that should be outgrown.

NJNBnj, If there was no demand what product would be sold? And how has the supply side economics helped growth of the economy.

Tell me why did people first start using horses for travel (other than war), because of the demand to get from A to B in quicker mode with less stress and strain on their person.

Brian999431, that is a more detailed description of my product development scenario, thanks, and notice your use of the word demand.

BrianB: Luscious - The volt is premature. The technology isn't primed yet. Batteries for the vehicle are extremely heavy and short lived. They only get a 200 mile range before recharging. Recharge times are way too slow.

And that sums up the entire "Green" industry. Windmills? Solar panels? Lets see them power a small city, power all the houses, the businesses, the industry of one town with a population of 20,000. Lets see battery power for these electric cars to increase to get 300 miles to the charge, and recharge take less than 30 minutes. Lets see the cost of Green Energy start to come down to something affordable.

Green is fine, but right now, it's nothing but a prototype. Not any time soon will it be generally available.

no joe -- wow, you are smokin' today. Thanks for jumping in on this thread.

JoAnna - Tesla is almost there. The question is how to make it affordable. How do we change the "grid" to accommodate the increased demand. Think 200 years from now not 40. 40 years worth of oil is about all we have. Do you advocate a better future for the future generations in your family? Do you like to sleep in filth or would you prefer innovations that clean things up. Yes, keep drilling but be prudent and wise, and take responsibility for any mess you make. It's cheaper to be careful.

Dont carry it all- and it only cost the taxpayers a billion dollars.

Steve Westly got half a billion for Tesla- he only had to bundle half a million for Obama to get it.

Another big Obama bundler got another half a billion to set up charging stations nationwide. Seen any?

Neither have I.

While we're on the topic of electric cars and charging stations- tell me, where does the electricity to charge the batteries come from? The energy fairy? Unicorns?

Nope. Comes from power plants that run on fossil fuels.

Six of one, half a dozen of another.

Suzy - it looks like the "usual suspects" have a few more people helping them out today. I have long had the "usual suspects" on ignore so that I don't have to read their talking points drivel. Anyone that thinks we need more of 1 Term 0bama and his agenda is obviously on the receiving end of all his give away programs. You know - the ones to buy votes. Sitting on the porch of the double-wide waiting for the check to come into the mail. One of the $80 million that the Fed sends out every month.

Don't Carry, I've been saying for ages that we need to shift the green energy focus- instead of attempting large scale production where technology is no where near ready to match demand, shift the focus to the individual consumer. Solar panels and low profile wind turbines would go a long way in removing tens of millions of homes from the power-grid which frees up needed capacity to support electric vehicles and other developing technologies in public settings. Same thing with businesses. Instead of penalizing them for polluting, offer tax incentives for implementing green technologies. This is how government dollars can turn into private sector growth. Businesses catch a tax break which effectively improves their bottom line, individuals can more easily afford the improved technology and they use that to create demand for new products (the solar panels, turbines, etc, themselves plus a whole new demand for the people to install and service the products) which creates jobs and therefore generates greater tax revenue to the government. And once a homeowner or business is generating it's own power, it reduces their overhead costs which means more money to put back into the market place for other goods and services. It's a win all around.

NJNB -- You are correct that is why I say we still need fossil fuels. Yes, they (Tesla) did receive a huge gift, but so does oil, farms, etc. Can't knock just one without dinging them all.

Suzy -- You got it. It will be the smaller applications that drive the market for the time being. Many are being developed as we type. I am more of yes, we can do it all.

Black Belt -- The legislators legislated this crap.......most of us are only trying to deal with it.

See what I mean? Left to their own devices the Supply Siders would go on forever ignoring the fact that this is a DEMAND BASED slowdown, and that we are in an oversupply situation that they have no answer how to end. Their errors of logic are as obvious as those of the "Intelligent Design" proponents who can't see the evolution right in front of them.

Dont - you weren't one of the ones I was criticizing. You at least appear to look at both sides which I commend. I may disagree with you on the Green energy initiatives but the way to get to Green energy is not to punish the drillers of oil - the small guys who take the risk - I am not taking up for Exxon/Mobil etc. We need to put pressure on OPEC in many different ways to get the price back down where it should be. I am a small biz guy - not in energy but small biz is what is going to get us out of this mess.

Agreed Black Belt. : )

Supply side falls flat on its face when one looks at the innovation of the Wall Street concerning the product (packaged mortgages) it produced, the demand (the bubble), and then the collapse (socialized loss). The beautiful camaro is the good side of supply theory....too bad they cannot control themselves.

Every day is a new chance to choose.
Choose to change your perspective.
Choose to flip the switch in your mind. Turn on the light and stop fretting about with insecurity and doubt.
Choose to do your work and be free of distraction.
Choose to see the best in someone, or choose to bring out the worst in them.
Choose to be a laser beam, with focused intention, or a scattered ray of light that doesn't do any good.

I. Gupta

We like Sharia Law...apparently only when it's OUR Sharia Law.

IR:

Outstanding. These ring wing radicals should be scaring the hell out of Americans. Just look at what is going on in the world today with radical religious groups in Afghan, Iraq, Iran , etc etc. Do we as a Nation want to go down that path??

People, this is the 21st Century. These religious radical groups have NO PLACE in our Political System. I do not want to live in a country where one religion is supposed to be better than another because the government says so, and if you are not of their faith or have no religious ideology you are defective in some manner. This is a very bad path to take and if History has taught us anything it will result in discrimination at best, genocide at its worst.

Keep bringing the mushrooms out of the darkness & into the light IR!

It's up to us to get the truth out there since the MSM has their heads up their collective butts!

Thank you, IR, for your Army of God posts this week. This truth is both scarey and dangerous for democracy as we know it.

I think you're doing something else with those mushrooms Feisty. Kind of like Alice in Wonderland!!

I see Navy is substituting "Outstanding" for "Kudos". Must have made him feel self-conscious!!

BTW any answer to my or should I say Maxine's question?? Why didn't BHO go to the black community instead of some white farm??

Thanks IR,

In you Guts You know they're NUTS.

IR -

Every time I see or hear a reference to Perry's Army of God, I seem to immediately start hearing "Onward Christian Soldiers" playing in my head and I can't turn it off. Much as I love so many of the other old hymns, this one seems to be a perfect theme song for the Perry campaign - kind of loud and fun to sing along with at first......until you actually start paying attention to the words.

I see Navy is substituting "Outstanding" for "Kudos". Must have made him feel self-conscious!!

I often use both kudos and outstanding something you will never earn. This the best you got? You are even more impotent than I thought.

BTW any answer to my or should I say Maxine's question?? Why didn't BHO go to the black community instead of some white farm??

Feisty: You called it right on.

REB #'s. Because he is President of ALL the people. Ms. Waters knows that as well but she represents a miniority district, it is her job to voice their frustration.

IR, thanks for this background. Bachmann did home school her children until she ran for Stillwater MN school board. I will check out RJ Rushdooney. If he is a theologian of the Calvinist school, he is part of a long stream of Christians who believe in predestination. You are either in or out. The way you know if you are saved is by the fruits or the success of you life. This must be a sign that you are part of the chosen ones.

Bachmann is a proud religious fundamentalist who feels called to e a politician. She has stated that "God focused on my campaign like a laser beam" after her first election to political office.

Thank you all my freiends and neighbors. Let's keep the focus on where it needs to be and that dang sure ain't buses

Jody - what no black communities in Iowa, Minnesota or Illinois that he is president of too??? He couldn't spare one visit??

Navy - Feisty never said anything so I don't know why you reference her and please note I would never want any Kudo or Outstanding from you. That would mean that I would have lost my way and went over to the dark side.

History will not look well upon this time when the Republican Party mainstreamed crazy.

Feisty: You called it right on.

YUP!

Like shootin fish in a barrel... lol

How do you liberals kep from falling down dizzy.......with all the spinning you do all day. Reminds me of the village idiot scene in "Love and Death" You know circle jerk and one ball juggling! Make all the fun you want .......REB pegged you before your fingers could type it!

Feisty:

And the moron does not even know it. Figures does it not.

REB-1013231

BTW any answer to my or should I say Maxine's question?? Why didn't BHO go to the black community instead of some white farm??

Look, are you implying there is no stimulus for the President to do for Blacks.

I understand Ed is very compassionate in views and has done a lot in the labor movement; but some of us are sick of his bashing the President; me for one.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jack-coleman/2011/03/19/yes-ed-schultz-you-told-democrats-not-vote-2010

Yes, Ed Schultz, You Told Democrats Not to Vote in 2010

Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jack-coleman/2011/03/19/yes-ed-schultz-you-told-democrats-not-vote-2010#ixzz1VOaMASwI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yup that’s me.

If he and the rest of the Progressive Professional left who, btw get paid to bash the President, had not set the scenario in 2010 he would not have to search around to justify his rants.

Maxine Waters said--“We don’t put pressure on the president,” Waters told the audience at Wayne County Community College. “Let me tell you why. We don’t put pressure on the president because ya’ll love the president. You love the president. You’re very proud to have a black man — first time in the history of the United States of America. If we go after the president too hard, you’re going after us.”

Now let me ask you something REB

Do White T-Republicans give a f*ck about Black People? If you read the NYT; you'd have seen this.

"They are overwhelmingly white, but even compared to other white Republicans, they had a low regard for immigrants and blacks long before Barack Obama was president, and they still do," they went on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/17/opinion/crashing-the-tea-party.html?_r=1

Black people know what we need to do to get ourselves from poverty and crime. We've made it thus, far since we got off the boat in 1619. Besides, that just makes it easy for anti- Obama whites (for whatever reason) to blame President Obama even more so.

I can say with surety the President is no different than any other white President who hasn't done a bang up job for Blacks either.

SurpriseObama’s (half) my color, and he’s (half) white people's color.

Bev - you're on your 'A' game this morning!

Beautiful smack down...

Mainstreamed crazy? 53% of democrats approve of Obama's handlingmof the economy, 60% approve of his handling of job creation, and you call republicans crazy?

I suppose those who suffer from democratic delusional dementia think that rational people are the crazy ones, but, trust me, those who can see the effects of Obama's policies know who is crazy.

Y'all are nuts.

bev ,what about anti obama blacks? Is it only whites that disapprove of him?

Bev - you raised some interesting points but you still didn't answer the question. Here it is again - Why didn't BHO go to a single majority black inner city community instead of white farm communities during his 3 day bus trip??

I don't care about what the NYT says about the Tea Party. I don't care about Ed or any other liberal ranter. I don't give a sh-t about Feisty or Navy who just pat themselves on the back about non-existant put downs of people that ask questions. They are very dangerous people.

You stated -

I can say with surety the President is no different than any other white President who hasn't done a bang up job for Blacks either.

Why do you think that is? Why didn't he go to a black community on his bus tour? Why should he do a different job for blacks than he does for whites and latinos and asians etc.? Aren't they suffering too? Certainlt the latinos are in a similar boat.

As Jody said "he is President of ALL the people". Does that mean he should do more for one group over another or should it be fair, balanced and equal - kind of like his spreading the wealth idea?

Oh and Jody - Maxine was in Detroit when she made those comments and not in front of her home constituents. And her response was a plea for freedom, for constituents to “unleash us.”

Actually she said - "When you tell us it's alright and you unleash us and you tell us you're ready for us to have this conversation, we're ready to have the conversation. The Congressional Black Caucus loves the president too. We're supportive of the president but we're getting tired ya'll...we're getting tired. And so, what we want to do is...we want to give the president every opportunity to show what he can do and what he's prepared to lead on. We want to give him every opportunity...but our people are hurting. The unemployment is unconscionable. We don't know what the strategy is. We don't know why on this trip that he's in the United States now, he's not in any black community...we don't know that."

So now that we all know what the question is again - can we get an answer??

I'll be waiting and hoping that you will respond.

I suppose those who suffer from democratic delusional dementia think that rational people are the crazy ones, but, trust me, those who can see the effects of Obama's policies know who is crazy.

Says someone who fails to acknowledge that the Tea Party is now less popular than Islam or Atheism.

John B - 100% of Congressional Democrats Agree with the results. Sounds legit.

When you speak to Bev please tell her I'm waiting. Thanks

you left the word "gone" out.....it goes between Obama and in.

again your link is not working

Good Morning Anna Molly:

It is amazing the number of GOPTP governors who won in 2010 and couldn't get elected today. I'm thinking Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, New Jersey, Florida. Thanks to the conservative agenda of these governors, Obama could carry all the above mentioned states.

First Read - Wisconsin news free for . . . . darn, roll it back to 0 days.

As I observed elsewhere last night, Ron -- Governor Walker is no doubt upset by Governor Scott's new status as THE most unpopular governor in the universe. Walker doesn't like to be #2 in anything.

But he's learning. ;-)

The demographics from the Supreme Court election and the recall elections support your theory about President Obama being able to win here. But I AM becoming mighty concerned about how he seems to be drifting, and unable to grab on to a consistent theme.

A guy with a billion dollars in the bank ought to be more confident.

"I think there are a lot of issues that, just instinctively, there is a lot of room to work together,” Walker said."

Gotta love a guy with all those instincts - looks like the "survival instinct" suddenly decided to come out and play, huh?

Thanks for the update, Anna Molly. Ron---I'd like to think that Pennsylvania would be on that list of "buyer's remorse" as well, but I'm not sure---the governor has been smart enough to lay off the unions.

JoAnna:

First Read - Wisconsin news free for . . . . darn, roll it back to 0 days.

LoL The grapes were pretty sour this morning, huh?

Anna Molly:

Great post. Kudos/outstanding/well done. I put these together for the idiot in #4.6.

Both Walker and Kaisch are in trouble and could not get reelected if the elections were held today. Note that the American people have slapped both of them and they are crying boooohooooo the people do not understand. BULL. The people do understand and they are mad as hell that you guys (TP/GOP) lied to us and sold this country down the river. Pay back is a B...H.

Ron: I agree Scott and the others are also in the frying pan right now. I just love to watch the wheel come around and watch them squirm.

The European Economy has driven the DOW down to 500. I need Dramamine to watch this thing.

Rachel Maddow said last night that the Democrats' gains, while not enough to take control of the Senate, did significantly shift the balance of power because one of the Republican senators is a moderate, or at least a rational conservative, so non-teabaggers now have the majority in the Wisconsin state senate.

BTW: The crushing defeat of all three Republican challengers in their failed attempts to recall the incumbent Democrats shows that the majority of voters in their districts approved of the Democrats fleeing the state in attempt to stop Walker's radical union-busting law, despite all the howls from the ultra-right, as amplified by the high-priced megaphone supplied to them by the Koch Brothers and other big money boys.

@ Houston ~ Exactly. And if Walker and his friends try any more radical stuff, like ramming this school voucher program down our throats, there are other senators who will be eligible for recall in January, and then we only need one more for a REAL majority.

But like Bernie Sanders has been reliable for Democrats, I expect Dale Schultz to be similarly reliable, at least with regard to the most radical proposals. So, for now, and at least until November 2012, Walker is at least prevented from making things much worse.

@ Navy ~ Thanks for the news about the market. I hadn't thought to look. Ouch.

And he, unlike the conservatives here, appears to fully recognize that his king is in check.

Great job on that nasty expectation thing AM.

You just keep dialing it down. Funny to recall all the noise just a few months ago about Walker/the recalls.

Golly after the stunning victories in the recall it all wine and roses. The unions have gotten everything back they lost to Walker, right?

No matter, the world is it seems is on fire. Germany is sinking now too, so Europe is flat out doomed.

And I suppose the public workers in Wisconsin are responsible for Europe, too, eh, Spanky?

Karma is such a b*tch, as Scott Walker and John Kasich are finding out.

I wonder why no one is buying their remorse?

Thanks for all you've done to keep us informed, AM. We'll look back at this and remember that the fall of the Tea Party began with Wisconsin.

Spanky, you're smarter than that, no?

2 repubs got fired by the people. All the 'cowardly' democrats that left to attempt to protect the people were re-hired for their courage. and Walker's rhetoric has taken a 180. Did the Dems get everything they were hoping for? No. but, this is definitely a better position for the Dems, and the people of WI to be in (from my perspective anyway....)

How you can spin loosing two GOP seats into a loss for the Dems is beyond reason. Even for you...

Walker has stepped in deep do do, and he knows it.

Because Ted it was! Your entitled to your opinion as is everyone else, and you can chatter all the way to election day. But the day after should be stark reality day! I would love to see you all here reviewing all of the fodder you will have put out over the past few months and forward. But alas your Still the M I N O R I T Y and us Independents will S T I L L elect the next president. And from what I have garnered in the past few days Independents are supporting center right people with votes and money! So sorry so sad!

Great job on that nasty expectation thing AM.

Yankees score 2 runs in the 9th, lose to Kansas City 4-3. Wisconsin Democrats send congratulation messages to New York for their excellent "win".

Ted Mid Michigan:

Right on. By any measure this was a win in Wisconsin by the Democrats. The bottom line is that they have two more votes than they did before the recall. Also, as noted above, one of the TP/GOP Senators is a moderate that voted NO on the Collective Bargaining Law. If this bill was voted on today it would have been defeated. Hell, if the governor's election was held today Walker would be out of a job.

Ted, you give "spanky" to much credit. He is that stupid.

Ask yourself, when is a win by any measure a win? I guess when you don't have enough votes to win! You know if teachers would teach math and other subject they should be teaching, instead of teaching socialism good, capitalism bad and environmental extremeness along with how wonderful it is that little Johnny has two moms and little Billy has two dads, you may be able to add and understand math.

well put JAS1!

JoAnna:

Yankees score 2 runs in the 9th, lose to Kansas City 4-3. Wisconsin Democrats send congratulation messages to New York for their excellent "win".

LoL Or was it sour cherries? Sour, either way.

Tell it to Kasich and Walker. I'm sure you know better than they do.

You left out the part about the Walker reforms actually working for Wisconsin.

jos: well put JAS1!

Recall in the 2010 elections, both the House and Senate were in play for Republican takeovers. It happened in the House, but the GOP came up short in the Senate. The discussion after the election by the GOP wasn't their huge win of picking 6 seats in the Senate. The discussion was about how the GOP screwed up by running unelectable candidates in several states.

Certainly it was nice that the GOP picked up several seats in the Senate, but there was no celebration, no moral victories, no everyone gets a trophy, like you see with the Democrats celebrations in Wisconsin. But if the WI Dems want to be delusional, let them be.

You left out the part about the Walker reforms actually working for Wisconsin.

If they are working so well why did he lose 2 Senate seats and his approval numbers are going down??????

Why did he not pick up one or two of the democrats seats - they won all theirs

Nice try, take the Tin Foil Hat off now.

Anna Molly, whether it was a victory or not for the unions, it seems as if Walker's fiscal plan has been successful so why do you hate it so much. Today's WSJ journal says the competitive bidding aspect of health care for the city of Milwaukee will save them $25 million this year and $30 million next. Previous articles have indicated that thousands of teachers jobs across the state have been saved as a result of the changes in the law. Why do the Wisconsin state union employees need collective bargaining rights better than the federal governements and why do they need to be unionized at all? It appears that many when allowed to no longer be apart of the union are electing to drop out, isnt that real freedom and choice?

My guess is that by the time Kasich and Walker (especially Kasich) have to face voters again, the benefits of their fiscal conservativeness and the economic cyclical turnaround will make it easier for them to be voted back into office.

But if the WI Dems want to be delusional, let them be.

So says the Ministry of Truth. Remember, we've always been at war with Eastasia.

Navy, do you want to rethink that question? Lets see if we use your logic, then why did the US Senate lose 6 seats and the US House a historical defeat of the democrats and Obama's approval ratings go down so much.

So I guess you are wearing the Tin Foil Hat now?

Navy, still waiting for your well thought out critical thinking response on how based on your very own personal logic that if Obama's progressive far left radical policies were working why did his party lose so many seats in the 2010 election and his approval ratings after 3 years of his leadership be so low? Remember you ask this question of Walker after less than a year in office and after 30 million dollars was spent by the unions to buy 2 victory seats out of 9 in the recall elections. Obama has had 3 years and I am still waiting for that tin foil radar to beam up a response for you.

Why even address a question that requires one to accept the premise that President Obama is pushing "progressive far left radical policies"? It's a question that assumes the answer and therefore a logical fallacy.

John B, oh come on I know you see the point. Now your being silly. Navy and you clearly think the so called fiscal conservative views have no merit which is why Walker lost some seats, so if your standing in the shoes of the fiscal conservative who sees Obama's policies as radical far left (it doesnt matter if its true or not) then the same observation applies to the national scene and you know it. My editorial opinionated observation has nothing to do with the answer and its logical conclusion and you very well know it because I know that besides your partisan views you critically think. Navy has no critical thinking skills and you do.

OK, let's start from here then--President Obama has done NOTHING to demonstrate radical, far left views.

That's how a plan to rescue the GM and Chrysler looks very much like Reagan's rescue of Chrysler in the 1980s.

That's how the stimulus plan ended up being much smaller than many economists said would be needed to be fully effective and contained over 25% tax cuts, the favorite economic tool of the Conservative Movement.

That's how Affordable Care, pilloried by Conservatives as "a socialist takeover of 1/6 of the economy" was largely lifted from a plan originally proposed by Republicans as their alternative to "Hillarycare" and implemented in Massachusetts by Conservative Republican Mitt Romney.

That's why our withdrawal from Iran and Afghanistan has been much slower and incremental than true antiwar Liberals would wish.

All of that is evidence that Barack Obama is neither as radical nor as Liberal as he's painted by Conservatives. None of it supports the description of the President as a "progressive, far left radical." He's moderate-left. That's fine with me, and it doesn't deserve the ridiculous descriptions he's received since the early days of his presidential campaign.

First my point had nothing to do with radical far left views and you know it. Navy made a stupid mistake by making a personal attack regarding the so called Wisconsin victory and his observation was analogous to the national scene so I called him out on it and you know that.

As for far left radical views, I do agree with you (are you surprised that I actually do think about this stuff as you seem to enjoy the personal attacks versus having a discussion. Obama has clearly been wrongly criticized by many conservatives and republicans or unfairly criticized on actions he has taken that are not radically left. His approach to the war on terror, afghanistan and even his stated political positions on dont ask dont tell, gay marriage etc have been far from radical left. I will even grant you that even though I found the bailout conclusion with GM and Chrysler to be extremely polically distasteful in that he clearly provided the unions a financial windfall not allowed under established law, it was not radical. Same thing with Obamacare, and even though I found the political process to be distasteful in that Pelosi and Reid rammed it down the countries throat and refused to consider things like tort reform, real cost controls etc it wasnt radical. I might not like some of legislation but its part of the typical political process and it wasnt radical.

What is radical is his personal views on fundamental economic behavior and his need to "level the playing field". I know this to be his personal views because of someone I know who knows him very personally and was involved in his original campaign here in Chicago. During the campaign this person who loves him dearly used to tell me that she would debate him all the time about his views on economic equality and she said that once he is president the very smart financial people like Buffett etc will get him to see the light. I dont believe he has seen it. He truly believes that successful people got there with an edge and not through hard work, education, talent, ambition but because they were born in the right spot at the right time and those who are lower class if they had the opportunities that the successful did they would be just as successful. You see this radical left view come out in him during his speeches, his class warfare statements on taxes and income, his regulatory approach to business, his response yesterday on his bus tour to the farmer's question on regulatory proposals, his approach to the federal budget. So yes I do think he has radical far left views on fiscal matters even if I agree with you that he has governed from the middle and unfairly criticized on other matters.

You mean THIS Warren Buffett?

OUR leaders have asked for “shared sacrifice.” But when they did the asking, they spared me. I checked with my mega-rich friends to learn what pain they were expecting. They, too, were left untouched.

While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.

These and other blessings are showered upon us by legislators in Washington who feel compelled to protect us, much as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species. It’s nice to have friends in high places.

Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.

If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html

Apparently Buffett is also a radical redistributionist.

Again, you ignore any of the other comments and focus on one aspect that you think helps you. Did you have a problem with any of my other comments or just like to focus on one aspect that suits your purpose. You clearly know that Buffet is a very smart guy and he is full of BS in these comments. He is taxed much higher than what he is indicating and he is ignoring corporate taxes that he pays and by intentionally avoiding payroll taxes and federal ordinary income tax by not paying himself a salary, he is intentionally reducing his overall tax burden. He certainly could increase it by doing so. You totally ignore the substantive aspect of my commment which is what drives basic economic behavior. I never said that changing the tax code or increasing tax rates was radical left, what I said was his underlying personal views of leveling the playing field are. That has nothing to do with taxing the super rich. Why not ask his buddy Penny Pritzker what she thinks instead?

And there you go dismissing anything that doesn't support your unsupported conclusion, as if on cue.

John I know you are not that stupid. There is no way you actually think that making circular arguments and responses is actually a conversation. Your dismissal of my response without critical thinking of it is similar to what Stupid as you think does so I know you can do better. You know that I didnt dismiss anything that supported an unsupported conclusion. I gave you my reasons as to why Obama has financial far left radical positions. I think the fact that the majority of americans feel the same way is a pretty good supporting fact based on all polls of his handling of the economy and financial matters in general. I provided an unsupported but factual link to the reason for his views and even went so far to agree with you on your other premises where he has been unfairly linked as a radical. You point to Buffett wanting to raise taxes as a counter argument? Come on stop being obtuse as that has nothing to do with Obama's fundamental views on inequity in society. That is tax policy totally different than the causes of inequity. I actually thought you were one of the few progressives with critical thinking ability but maybe that is David Walker and I am mistaken.

What circular argument? You expressed a hope that a smart guy like Warren Buffett would straighten out President Obama on some vaguely referenced and unproven values that I should take your word about.

I point out that Warren Buffett disagrees with your position.

You call Warren Buffett a liar.

Now, if you want to talk about Barack Obama's fundamental views on inequity in society, he clearly believes that hard work should be rewarded by improved position in life. He's worked hard to get where he is and he doesn't apologize for it. Now that he's achieved that position he's willing to admit that he and others in his position have gotten a really good deal from 30 years of tax cutting directed primarily at the wealthy. He believes that he and others of high income can afford to contribute a little more to society without being seriously hurt.

What's hard to understand about that?

Oh, I don't know...maybe because the nation has over a 14 trillion dollar debt and proposed deficit spending forever unless there is real spending cuts and real tax reform that addresses all the tax issues. Our debt is 100% of GDP. As a country we borrow 40 cents of every dollar spent in Washington. We have a President who believe government spending will solve our economic problems. We have a President who attacks free enterprise in every speech.....

One of the buses will be provided to the GOP presidential nominee--for that person's safety as well.

Why would anyone question a pragmatic, cost-effective, safety-oriented decision like this?

Well, Gail--the Tea Party would question the decision because it was made on President Obama's watch and that's reason enough to be against it. They apparently also have trouble grasping the concept that buying the vehicles versus leasing them is a cost-effective way of making sure that whoever is the president is safe and secure. That way attention is focused away from Congress' 5 week vacation following 8 months of no jobs bills.

The Bus was ordered because "Presidents" have no safe way to travel the country when Air Force One is not a viable means of travel. It will be used by presidents beyond Obama, I'm just sure they will spend the money to customize it for them.

SF, one thing you can't teach "Fiscal Conservatives" is fiscal responsibility. After all, the inevitable destruction of New Orleans by Hurricane Katrina occurred because "Fiscal Conservatives" failed to prevent hundreds of billions of dollars in damage through spending a few billion on flood protection.

Then they insisted on once again providing the city with a level of protection that will one day inevitably be exceeded by another hurricane.

You can't cure stupid.

Tony,

Are you aware that the previous method of ground transport for presidents was to lease a bus, spend thousands to retrofit the bus to security stats and then spend thousands to return the leased bus back to it's original state. I think one large purchase is a wiser useage of money that spending over and over again for the same item....Don't you?

This was not a lease vs buy decision that some of you seem to want to focus on. Oh yea, there is justification for every dollar Washington spends. We going to justify our way to bankruptcy.

I hope the public know that the winner for the Republicans running will be issued the same type of bus by the Secret Service.

JOb1:

Great posts today, glad to see you. Oh they know, they just have nothing else to yap about. Instead of proposing a jobs bill or something to stimulate the economy they are yapping about the birth certificate of a bus. What a shameless collection of wasted effort.

If these guys (TP/GOP) would this energy to get off their butts and be part of the solution we could then maybe get something done.

They are never going to pass a jobs bill that would also stimulate the economy increase revenues while lowering the deficit. These all would make President Obama look good and help him in 2012. The TP/GOP rather let this country go into default or fail rather than let President Obama get another term.

That is what the AINOS has decayed into. They have turned their backs on America.

This absolutely was a lease vs buy decision. GWB's cheif of Secret Service was on NPR Teusday stating how much unneccesary costs were going into the retrofit and subsequent restoration of each leaed bus. This man (his name escapes me) also says "I wish I would have done it"

and you didn't address my point: isn't it better to have one large purchase than to be nickled and dimed forever? isn't that more fiscally responsible?

Hi Navy,

So true, they just want the President to fail and they are nothing more than Domestic Terrorist.

What is wrong with the POTUS traveling in one of his customized - secure limo's?? Probably something about not wanting to be seen in rural America in a limo - he might not appear to be of the people then.

Wow, you mean you didn't want George Bush to fail? You mean Pelosi and Reid didn't want Bush to fail?

There you go using words to describe people.....that you criticize others for doing....

black_belt3

What is wrong with the POTUS traveling in one of his customized - secure limo's?? Probably something about not wanting to be seen in rural America in a limo - he might not appear to be of the people then.

It probably gets a little cramped riding cross-country for days in a limo.

Does anyone want to bet that the faux outrage over the bus won't fade after the Republican nominee gets his very own bus, too?

Good point Houston, and in reality it would be a whole caravan of limos. At that point you're actually using less fuel in a bus, and you're only paying one driver.

I'm never outraged when people buy things. It's their money, and none of my business how they spend it.

I do get outraged when somebody takes MY money and spends it- particularly on outrageous, unnecessary foreign made goods for their own personal use.

This new talking point- that the republican candidate will be offered the use of one of the buses- is simply ludicrous. The first statement was that all future presidents would be able to use them. Now, one will be offered to the republican nominee?

Obama wasted the money- tell him to get back whatever he can by selling them. I'm sure some of his Hollywood supporters will be happy to take them off his hands.

Houston: Does anyone want to bet that the faux outrage over the bus won't fade after the Republican nominee gets his very own bus, too.

Sorry Houston, that was just another make believe story by the Obama administration to try and cover up their stupidity. Candidates fly between cities on a daily basis Houston. If they need a bus, they lease one locally, paid for by their campaigns. Having the Mad Max bus in Cleveland one day, doesn't help a candidate that is flying to Miami the next. The idea that this bus will magically appear in a city thousands of miles away from one day to the next is idiotic.

No Joe - maybe they can sell one to one of the Nascar drivers?? Just kidding. 1 Term 0 needs to ride in his limo and the rest of the people who don't require the security that he does should be riding in locally chartered buses that were made in the US. 1 Term 0's hangers on or staff members don't need any more security than you and I do!

"This new talking point- that the republican candidate will be offered the use of one of the buses- is simply ludicrous. The first statement was that all future presidents would be able to use them. Now, one will be offered to the republican nominee?"

Well that's what the LA Times seems to think:

"President George W. Bush used a bus from the same manufacturer, Quebec-based Prevost, for a spring 2004 "Yes, America Can" campaign tour through the Midwest.

"We've been overdue for having an asset like this in our fleet of protective vehicles," Donovan said, adding that leasing buses is "not inexpensive – that costs tens of thousands of dollars a month…. Designing our own vehicle really gives us a level of security that we couldn't achieve by doing it the other way."

The second bus will be used eventually by the Republican presidential nominee."

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/17/news/la-pn-secret-service-defends-canadian-bus-20110817

I beleive that donovan was GWBs Sercret Service Chief, right JoAnne?

I don't know about Chief or not, Ted, but he was at least the spokesman at the time, because he was the guy who issued the statements about the shoe-throwing incident. But from what I've always read, the Secret Service are the most apolitical people in the world - they don't care who they're protecting.

Of course, we're both forgetting the First Commandment of First Read - "Thou shalt not mention George W. Bush"!

JoAnne in PA

"This new talking point- that the republican candidate will be offered the use of one of the buses- is simply ludicrous. The first statement was that all future presidents would be able to use them. Now, one will be offered to the republican nominee?"

Well that's what the LA Times seems to think:

Ah, but the LA Times is one of those things they call a "newspaper," which means it's not FOX News and therefore nothing it contains can be true unless Sean Hannity says so.

DummyD

According to the late political scientist, Gabriel Almond, Professor of Political Science Emeritus at Stanford University, "the historical, the logical and the statistical evidence for this positive relation between capitalism and democracy is quite persuasive." He contends that capitalism and democracy have emerged over the last couple of centuries as the dominant problem solving institutions of modern civilization, although both have had to be modified or "welfarized."

This is what the far right calls "socialism." They prefer the 19th Century's pre-Teddy Roosevelt brand of capitalism.

Great post Dummy D, I completely agree. It's a good explanation of why Capitalism MUST be paired with reasonable regulation, and why that pairing is responsible for America becoming the world's dominant economy. Those who claim that Capitalism and freedom are one and the same are mistaken, or more likely lying. After all, there are over a billion Chinese who are well acquainted with Capitalism but know almost nothing of freedom.

DummyD:

Great post and I agree.

John B:

Right on as well. Very well said and the truth.

Right-on, John B...you are so right about the synergy of compliments.

God Bless You!!

When will Republicans stop blocking tax breaks for small business?

You really do need to stop listening to Ed Shultz......

Tony c numbers:

When will the TP/GOP stop blocking Job Bills? They have blocked 4 so far just his year and last year they blocked the $50 Billion Dollar Infrastructure Bill that was 100% paid for.

When are you going to stop following Limpballs and Fox???

I don't follow anybody. I am living through what will go down in history as one of the worst administrations ever. I don't cut and paste or misrepresent myself either....

I don't follow anybody. I am living through what will go down in history as one of the worst administrations ever. I don't cut and paste or misrepresent myself either....

Correct, the 112th Congress will go down in History as the worst and most dysfunctional congress on record and the first to cause a Credit Rating downgrade. Nice record for your History books.

I will cut and past articles all I want and comment on them and your "Gestapo"attitude does not cut it with me. This is still a free society and you guys are not in the White House yet - not by a long shot. Until then I still have freedom of speech and if you do not like it too bad.

And prove where I have every misrepresented myself?? You sir are an unmitigated liar. I offer it is you that misrepresents yourself. Your posts reek of tea bag talking points and old debunked radial right wing lies.

Admit it, you are another radical right wing tea bagger that is part of the problem and you have not one iota of ideas to move this country forward. Instead you come here dumping crap all over the place.

Nice try tea bagger - you just made my ignore list as well as the other fruit loops.

My, My, you sure do get angry when you read the truth.... I said administration........wow!

Uncomfortable with the question, Tony? When will Republicans stop blocking tax breaks for small business?

First, the attitude by Navy must be common with liberals. They run and hide when they don't like what they hear, you know to another state. In the Navy....yea right.

Read that so called bill to help small business and get back to me. I have been in business many many years.

Also, Obama's proposed cuts, never in writing, were really cuts in the growth of spending in future fiscal years. Not real cuts. He puts nothing in writing so he can spin it to make political points.

Buy some gold, it may not be too late yet. When Obama is done, you will need a basket full of dollars to buy a loaf of bread....

Ummmm what tax breaks is a better question?

Tony C - I have had my own Small biz since 1995 - the worst 2 years on record by far are 2009 and 2010. 2011 is going to be the worst ever unless something huge happens in the next month or two. When I go to my tax accountant who used to work for the IRS and is licensed to practice before the IRS I ask him about all the small biz incentives and amazingly our biz manages not to qualify for 1 Term 0's helping small biz. I have yet to find any small biz owner, Dr or Lawyer where 1 Term 0's policies have helped them.

When will Republicans stop blocking tax breaks for small business?

Like I said, you really need to stop listening to Ed Shultz.

By the way, I hear Ed Shultz is going on a diet. He plan on giving his excess food to the poor. Fat chance of that! Liberals are great at giving sympathy, but want problems solved with tax dollars. They believe that "enabling" people helps them. It does not.

Houston:

Touche' Game, Set Match. nice job.

Washington Post...now there is a reliable source for facts. Sort of like Obama's talking points. You know that check you receive, the one Obama tried to scare people about not receiving if the debt ceiling was not raised? Guess what, you can count on not receiving it when we have a real financial collapse as a result of this administration's poor performance and wild spending. Keep your attention on the primary elections in the Republican Party. That way you won't see what is coming as a result of this "Blame everybody and everything" President who is destroying this country at an alarming rate.

What's your preference Tony--the Drudge Report?

Whether you believe me or not...I have never seen a Drudge Report. But I do live and feel the results of almost 3 years of a President who has been a total failure in terms of what he claimed he would accomplish.

Trending up- The national debt, gold prices and healthcare costs

trending down - The economy, the dollar, job creation and home values.

Lets keep throwing money at the problem and see what happens....

Go back and replay his campaign speeches.....you really don't have to as he is still repeating the same stuff......