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Subscribe to RSSCONCORD, N.H. -- Congressman Ron Paul wasted no time here joking that "some Southern governor," (referring to his governor, Rick Perry, but not naming him), makes him look moderate.
"I have never once said Bernanke committed treason," the Texas congressman said, chuckling. That was greeted with thunderous applause from the 600 supporters awaiting him at a campaign office opening.
On his lack of media coverage of him on Sunday following the Ames Straw Poll, Paul said he is not worried.
"In this day and age, they are not as relevant as they think they are," he said, referencing the Sunday morning talk shows. "We have enthusiasm, rightness of our cause, and another little gadget called the Internet."
As for the next steps in his campaign, Paul was confident.
"It looks like this energy has spread to New Hampshire!" he exclaimed.
After the speech, Paul patiently signed copies of his book -- and the Constitution -- and talked to voters who are lined up, roughly 200 by this reporter's count.
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How exciting! *snark meter on*
I'm counting on Ron Paul running as a third party candidate (ala Ross Perot) and sucking the votes from the religous zealots...
Did he charge for that like Bible Spice? You know - buy my daughters 'abstinence only book' OR I won't sign yours... Anything for a buck with that b!tch!
*popcorn* anyone?
Paul is a 'man out of time'.
Franklin felt the same way about himself, but he was looking forward.
Poor Ron Paul - he used to be all about auditing the fed. Someone got to him, told him the sad reality and he has backed way off.
It's a lot like Obama and all his promises about the wars, Gitmo, and rendition. Very easy to promise to shut it all down, until they fill you in on the hard truth.
In Obama's case with the wars and rendition stuff it was just how bad and ugly the world is. He got into power and now does his best Bush impression.
Similarly someone got to Paul and 'splained it to him. You audit the Fed and find out what it's really up to, and how many promises it has made and BAM the whole world comes crashing down.
Reality sucks. The world is a cold and lonely place.
Damn good composite, Spanky!
Check 'up' on that!
And, that's from the optimist in me.
No one got to Paul -- he DID audit the Fed. The Fed was audited by GAO for the first time because of his Bill this year. He's against the Fed and most of what it's done, but it doesn't mean he'll be immature like Perry.
You have to count on it Feisty because Obama isn't going to beat anybody straight up. He needs a third party to help him.
Whatever kirby...
Learn how to play the game will ya? Prior to spouting off your yap?
It really really is painful to watch you all...
Hello Feisty.
I have read many of your posts and want to applaud you for your loyalty to the democratic party. It's nice to see anyone (IMO) with as much spirit as you have. I am an independent. I have been on many of the same pages as you often times taking an opposite viewpoint. But you sometimes bring some valid points to a discussion that I have appreciated because I like to see more than one side of an issue.
What I'd really like to know, if you'd care to inform me, is what has brought about your passion for the democratic party? I simply have never understood why so many people almost blindly follow party affiliation. There are good and not so good in any party in my opinion, so I vote for a candidate because of what they say, their record and any other tangible evidence I can find to make a determination about them.
I am not asking you the question with any hidden agenda. I'm not here to bash you for your choice of voting principles. If you decide to answer my question, regardless of your answer, I want to assure you that I will not come back here to use anything you say against you. I am simply curious.
My question also holds for anyone else here. I'd enjoy hearing from anyone who wholly supports a party; IF you can talk about your reasons without simply bashing the other party. That is simply voting a lesser of two evils in most cases and hardly worthy of civil discussion.
I'm in the middle of fixing dinner - I do appreciate you question(s) and I will address them in the very near future...
Have a nice evening!
Thank you for responding, I appreciate it. And thank you for your wishs regarding my evening. I look forward to hearing from you when you have time. I simply feel that I may be missing something about party loyalty and maybe you or another will shed some light on it for me.
I hope you have you have an enjoyable meal and if I don't hear from you tonight, I hope you'll have a great evening.
Wow, this quote is taken completely out of context to give a warped view of Ron Paul. Ron Paul is the most anti-fed person on the planet. His primary goal for 30 years has been to shut it down. Ending the Fed is his whole life.
This further goes to show the media bias. Perry's dark past is ignored while getting tons of coverage every second of the day and they pretend Ron Paul doesn't exist despite polling as a front runner except for a few articles like this that misrepresent his true views. Anyone still taking MSNBC seriously is a sheeple drone.
I have seen decades of nasty politics. What the republicans are doing with Obama and the administration takes the cake.
I was a bit too young for McCarthy, but I think we have a whole bunch of Republican baggers that are coming very close.
Where did all of this ignorance and ugliness come from?
Are we living in a time machine?
Return of the ugly old fat white bigot.
Cautious, it seems some want history to repeat itself, rather than us learning from the mistakes of the past.
Kind of silly. Paul is clearly anti-Fed. Always has been, probably always will be.
What's up Optimistic one??? Nasty politics has become the normal mode the last few election cycles. You are certainly right about that. You think words like "ugly old fat white bigot" give your commentary added credibility?
Middle12 - I would also like to hear more about devout party loyalty. I read this vine from time to time and find many people posting the same loyalties regardless of how good or bad, popular or unpopular a particular event or issue may be.
I support Dems aka Progressives aka Liberals because of my upbringing, background, and worldy experiences. State Dept/USAF African American Father, South Vietnamese mother.
To make it simple... if you are open minded you may be a progressive. Open minded doesnt have to mean hippie or tree hugger. For example, SUSHI. Willing to try it? Right on. People who furrow their brows and say YUCK! but have never tried it... you may be a Conservative... in food and in.. life.
So... Pulpy orange juice or no pulp? ;)
I love Sushi and am a republican. Its foolish to paint groups of people with such a wide brush. I too have traveled the world as a young child, dad worked for the state department as well. I was very lucky as a child, to be able to see the world. That encouraged me to have an open mind and judge things for myself, read objective written materials. I just wish someone would ask me what I read as they did Sarah Palin, they would be embarrassed for asking such a foolish question. As an adult my luck has continued and I like my parents have lived all over the world. In my travels I have learned that most people are much happier when they work for the things they have and are not dependant on the government for their lives.
So your statement that only progressives have open minds is quite ridiculous.
WOW... some people have such skewed ideas of what being a conservative is. For as much as liberals/progressives stand on their convictions, we conservatives stand on ours too. We are not blinded by theatrics, or emotion. Logic is more of our mainstay. We understand there are many undercurrents to the political system and know that there are opposing and diametric, unseen forces in battle over control. It's not all surface level elements to how our political system works. There are liberals in the republican party and conservatives in the democrat party.
We come in all shapes, sizes and colors. We enjoy different kinds of food. I like sushi. I can't stand brussel sprouts or parsnips. Orange is my favorite flavor and colbolt blue is my favorite color. There are no broad stokes that can paint a conservative... pretty much the same with liberals. Ideology is a personal matter that can be and is well debated. Chocolate or Vanilla anyone?
I agree with you Brian that all parties have a variety of people within that party and stick by their beliefs. I guess what gets me as an Independent is that people are almost held back by their beliefs because they are not willing to compromise for the better of the whole. I am not talking emotional beliefs (i.e abortion rights) but political beliefs (i.e tax raises and entitlement reform). I think our Congress paints themselves in a corner because they think they can please everyone sticking only to what their party believes and it is to the detrement of regular Americans.
Ron Paul is just relieved someone makes him look sane (and educated).
I thought "Conservative" meant reserved. Cautious. God fearing. I never once said "Republican" and all statements were made using the modal verb "may" (possibility) rather than the indicative verb "are".
In your travels you must also have seen people who have been dealt a destitute hand and will quietly wither away and die. Part of the Circle of Life eh? I agree that those WHO ARE GIVEN everything, take many things for granted.
However I am referring to Trust Fund babies (Recieve $200k+ at age 18). Multiple DUIs, Sexist, Prejudiced, Reckless, contracting herpes from performing cunnilingus on high priced prostitutes because they couldnt "get it up" from a stimulant that will remain un-named.
Republicans on the other hand are referring to "welfare recipients" when they speak of those who are not working for things or are being "GIVEN" things such as housing or food. Dems in my opinion support helping poor people get OUT of the gutter. Reps support the "rich" of whom either they themselves or their offspring MAY be going INTO the gutter.
Interesting how Paul had no problem bashing Perry, on Bernanke, considering he believes that The Fed is unconstitutional. Feisty, you may be right. He may just go out there on an independent ticket, or possibly his own Libertarian ticket. This will most definitely be a interesting primary to watch. Especially since Paul isn't going to run for re-election for his House seat.
Brent - Did you read the article? It said that Ron Paul never called Bernanke treasonous. Ron Paul is too much of a gentleman to have said that. Paul understands that it's not the chairman of the fed that's to blame... it's the fed itself that he's against. This is the contrast to Paul's belief system and Perry's grandstanding. That was Ron Paul's point.
The writers of the article placed a deceptive title on this. They are making a false statement that Ron Paul is being hypocritical, but that's very typical of how the First Read writers skew any republican that has the potential of going up against their boss, Obama.
The title of this article is misrepresenting Paul, as usual.
Ron Paul is against the Fed and all the bad things it has done to our economy and currency -- as you can see from the numerous hearings on the Fed he had conducted and HIS Bill to audit the Fed, which resulted in the first audit of the Fed in ages -- but Paul has enough civility not to call Bernanke "treasonous" as Perry did. Ron Paul should have gone after Perry with more gusto, in fact -- Perry is basically Bush 2.0.
And by the way, Ron Paul has absolutely no intention to run as a third party candidate. His campaign recently said there is virtually no chance he will run as a third party candidate. Plus, commitment to the Republican primary kind of precludes him from doing so anyway. But an organized write-in campaign in the general election, if Paul doesn't win the nomination, is quite likely.
Ron Paul predicted the Fed/government caused crisis 5 years before the big crash!
So did I - But who's counting.
You're not <i>as</i> on record as Paul in doing so. Ergo you have negligible credibility.
As did I, but nobody was listening. You can ask my friends and family if you want proof. I guess that won't count either, because I'm not an elected official. To be honest, it wasn't that hard to see it coming. Most were in denial of it. Sad, but true.
All of you folks are missing one notable item...every congressional rep gets funds in one amount or the other from lobbyist. Those funds are buying this country into bankruptsy. Neither party today has done anything for the general pubic...or anything in their favor. Even the so called health care bill that was passed..the lobbyist had more to do with it than any politican. There is in that bill no cost controls at all. There are no guarantees in it for just how much health care you will really get for the extra money it will cost. No bill writen today gets by with out a lobbyist having his hands deep into it. All of the Pac money that these politicans are getting for their elections is buying them favors..big ones that will surely cost the tax payers even more money. Lobbyist are puting even more money into congress every day and getting favors for it,,yet folks continue to blame one party or the other or the president for our problems...when it is really the fault of all of them. The problems we have today are because the lobbyist have already paid for it to happen., Those trade deals both parties are happy with..only make more in profits for big business and wall street...and lobbyist have paid to get just that. Are those deals good for the USA..can not see how when this country has lost millions of jobs because of them. This country is being sold out..China nor any other nation will have to fight this country to dominate it..they will just buy it out. Thanks to your elected, every one of them.
he didn't defend bernanke he actually said that Bernanke is a counterfeiter, hes not a crap talker like Perry Ron Paul has been bullying Bernanke at the Committee hearings for years for what the fed has done.
Ron Paul speaks truth. The Liberal media LIES because they can't tell the truth. What would the truth sound like? Things like......"Obama has no plan that's why he gave 9 speeches about JOBS and has yet to put a plan out there. " OR, " After claiming transparency, Obamacare was shoved down your throats and crafted by DEMS ONLY behind closed doors for 18 months. " OR, "We promised a fix to Illegal Immigration but we decided to just talk about it because the Hispanics will probably vote for us ANYWAY." OR, "We know Biden is the dumbest man in politics ( a gaff machine) but we call all the Repubs DUMB, especially the women, because we liberals own the media and the stupid electorate buys it."
Leona honey - sweetie - sit back and take a deep breath - the med-cart should be there any minute...
You sound as ignorant as the other right wing idiot Annie Rich...
And relying on sarcasm, superciliousness, pretentiousness, and non-sequiturs in getting your "point" accross, rather than logic and reason, isn't ignorant?
WHOA -someone sure knows how to access their thesaurus?
My, aren't you the brain trust? lmao
No - I think the old gal is being serious about the med cart. After all, she has first hand knowledge.
The Republicans refused to discuss healthcare reform with the Democrats because they didn't want to look like they were cooperating. They also fillibustered various economic reforms proposed by Obama and the majority Democrats to keep bills from passing. It's all in the history books now, if anyone chooses to check it out. I've got to get to bed, or I'd look it up for y'all.
Actually Spanky, it's nothing like Obama. Unlike every other politician under the sun Dr. Paul never changes his views. His principles are unwavering and his public record of consistency prove it. All Paul is saying is that we shouldn't get carried away and start throwing around senseless accusations of treason (a real offense punishable by death) in an attempt to gain popularity by dumbing down the topic. A more mature position is laid out in Dr. Paul's bestseller: "End the Fed". If you've read the book, you'd notice Paul doesn't stoop to lame name-calling in making his case. A more grown up approach to this important issue is preferred by Dr. Paul and his supporters. Perry is merely diving into waters too deep for his abilities. Much like you are.
After all, who's asked to appear on CNBC, Bloomberg, Fox Business to give his take on economic events on an almost daily basis, Ron Paul or Rick Perry? I've checked out youtube and found a good number of interviews featuring Paul, yet as much as I dig I can't for the life of me see Perry giving his analysis on any of these networks, EVER. Also, who's the chairman of the financial services subcommittee overseeing the Fed?
You are wearing your rubric cube to a frazzle.
Sorry, just had a superciliousness hiccup.
I'm with you about Paul's steadfastness. However, he has of late seemingly abandoned his call to audit the fed.
I used to think it'd be a great idea. But we know the the gov. is already on the hook for like $66 trillion, but that's just what it admits to.
We also know no one runs a ponzi like the feds. No one. Just take a gander at Social Security, fannie and freddie.
I'm scared. Mighty, mighty sacred.
Scared doesn't touch the 15 million children living in poverty in this nation.
Spanky, Ron Paul dose not have to say anything about auditing the fed anymore, isn't that the first thing you think about when you see him or hear his name? He and auditing the fed are the definition of "it goes without saying". lol He will keep preaching audit the fed till the fed has accounted for every dollar it has issued.
I was just at this event. Dr. Paul did not defend Bernanke!
He pointed out that while he had never accused Bernanke of "treason", he said he still considered Bernanke a counterfeiter. Then he noted that counterfeiting is an offense punishable by death, according to the Constitution.
It's easy to root for a guy that has no shot of winning. It's like rooting for the third string quarterback, he's the most popular player until he actually has to play.
"It's easy to root for a guy that has no shot of winning."
This is a debatable statement, but I'm more curious why it's so easy for some of you to root for guys (or gals) that have no shot of saving us from a collapsing economy. It's as if so many people are so fixated on Ron Paul's "electability" that they forget that we're basically hiring someone to do a job. Forget about whether or not he'll get the nomination and put some time into learning his platform. If you choose to vote for another candidate, fine, but do it based upon who speaks the most for your views. In the end, it doesn't matter anyway...your ballot doesn't count and the election won't change anything. So, don't kid yourself into believing that those of us who vote on our principles are throwing our votes away any more than you are.
Ron Paul is a kook!! But then again, he is a Republican isn't he?. Enough said.
Great Jon Ron Paul! People are actually trying to run off of your campaign policies!!
I'm startled to find an MSNBC article, however short and misleading it is, about Ron Paul. As governor I wonder how many millions or billions of dollars Perry accepted in stimulus to balance his state's budget............yeah several billions.
Ron Paul 2012
MSNBC shame on you!!!!!!!!
You took his word out of contecst and put propaganda article!
Watch from 10:23 and see for yourself!
Jo Ling Kent is shame for journalism profession!
To funny JJJ,,,,,,,,I would guess the entire Republican Party also took it out of context when they are coming out of the woodwork to correct his statement??
it cannot be said any plainer. perry is shallow and holds no true core values. He changes with the political wind. karl rove recruited perry as a moderate dem. to join bush's movement as Texas became a one party state and perry flipped. them's just the plain facts, spin however you may. he has struck deals over land for his corridor, and with big pharma for a forced vaccine. day 17 of over 100 degree heat and still no rain. perry's prayer meeting was ineffective. and BTW those pastors he invited to the rally were not Methodist. to the contrary they were about as far down the spectrum as you could get. more like Church of Christ and Pentecostal. But he did have a great turnout.
perry used stimulus money to patch up the state for years all the while condemning the feds and the stimulus, he thought you would be to stupid to call him on it and sadly he was right about some of you. Texas ranks 35 in the child wellness survey and that's BEFORE perry's draconian cuts.
Texas has an UNemployment rate of 8.2 hardly a miracle!4.2 billion in education alone.
if these facts and others are ever publicized by the main stream media, he will lose to obama by 6points...52-47
perry's own words... social security and medicare are ponzi schemes that need to be done away with.
romney,huntsman and pawlenty(if he had not wimped out over a bought off straw poll that was insignificant) do have a shot at winning. obama is highly vulnerable to the right opponent. he had a world of potential but alas he served the big corporate interests instead of the middle class.
Can we do anything but laugh when a Republican candidate is so misinformed, dense, STUPID!!! The entire Bush cabinet (including Karl Rove) have been in contact with Perry about his accusation that a REPUBLICAN appointed Bernanke is treasonous, LOL Can you imagine the discussions going on behind closed doors right now?
Oh gosh...
Fifteen more months of being bombarded with this Looney Tunes "I'll say whatever you want me to for a vote" headline news, fuled and bankrolled by millions from super PACs, while a starving, frightened world looks on helpslessly....
Are we up for this? Can we stand it?
I wonder....
This guy's a fool. He's just another typical lying politician. He should support what Perry said. Everyone should. What Perry said is true. Any attempt to impair the well being of one's state or government or betrayal of one's country to an enemy are definitions of TREASON. Printing money with destroying an equal amount of old or damaged money instantly raises inflation and devalues the U.S. dollar. This makes our economy weaker versus other countries economies (including those of our enemies). It also makes the price of everything go up, without our pay, SSN, retirements, etc., going up, which makes things harder on everyone. This may be a mild form of treason, but it is still treasonous by nature. Since when is telling the truth a bad thing? I applaud Perry for having the nerve to tell the truth, even if it is unpopular (definition of - INTEGRITY). Are we so used to having all politicians telling us lies, that we can't handle hearing the truth?
You need to look a little further into Perry. Ron Paul would not want to associate himself with anything Perry says; and he doesn't have to. Ron Paul has been the major proponent that has brought the FED into question for something like I don't know...the last 20-30 years. Perry on the other hand, is hijacking the original message and taking it up a notch. Perry's governorship is tainted with corruption- everything from possible cover-ups, to million dollar budget shortfalls for his office, to his lying about the health of the Texas demographic. I would look into him further before you cast your vote
To: lastamericanpatriot1623
Please feel free to move to Australia or anywhere else. Also, please take the 46% of Americans that don't pay any federal income taxes with you. If you don't want to be here, then get out! To the other 46% - if you don't pay taxes, you don't contribute to our country. If you don't contribute, you should not be an American citizen. To fix this, the 46% of Americans that don't pay taxes should pay 10% federal income taxes, starting immediately. The super wealthy should pay 40%. There should also be a 10% sales tax on everything, that goes to the debt only. We should all work together to repair our great country. Anyone not willing to do so, should just leave ASAP.
All unemployment checks should be the same amount for everyone. All people are created equal. It should not matter what type of job you used to have or the amount of money you used to make. The unemployment checks should also be 20% less than what you would make working a 40 hour a week job. This would instantly light a fire under everyone's butts not working, to find and hold a job, even a minimum wage job. Take the first job you can get, and stop riding on the backs of everyone else. You can always work your way up to a better paying job later.
Joe not a bad idea, I have grown so tire of the same rhetoric from the GOP and policies and will never work to its not even funny. To fix this economy that is truly market driven or should I say is based on consumption is through jobs. Jobs from the government and jobs in the private sector along with tax reform. The problem is that damn stupid oak the GOP signed and their pledge to put corporation over the needs of the public. That short term greed is killing any true growth in industry and that kills jobs along with dragging down the economy.
Fix your website...when I hit reply I have to login again and then it takes me to a new thread rather than the one I'm replying to
Ahhhh, the FEDERAL reserve.....owned by PRIVATE enterprise. The Fed has caused a lot more trouble then they are worth. But if you try to get rid of them, you wind up dead. Just ask Mr Kennedy. Or his brother. Or Lincoln....(different bank, but same results, he took the banks out of the loop by giving america their OWN money)
If you do your research, you will find that the same people have been controlling the economies of the world for several hundred years.
I know, I am a crackpot and a conspiracy theorist,,,,,,,but check it out for yourself. THEN tell me how whacky I am......after you dig in to the CAUSE of the war of 1812.....not the sugar coated stuff you find in textbooks.....go to the national archives and look at the actual documents that made the history....instead of the authors that rewrote it.
You may say to yourself, there is nothing that an individual can do about it....After all, you can't fight city hall, or wall street.
Try taking your direct deposit OUT of the bank as soon as it's posted.The 'powers that be" are only powerfull because they have YOUR cash !
inthemiddle12/fiestyredhead: My questions exactly. i thought i was the only independant left. I have no party affliation, have voted both parties, liked/hated my choices for past presidents, etc. I have always felt that a candidate for any office needs to be honest about his value system, his past voting record and public record (speeches, quotes, comments), and his plans. they should be willing to be questioned by anyone interested in hearing their side of any issue and engage in a dialogue or discussion. this is the only method i can think of to effectively evaluate a person and their likelihood that they can perform in the office if elected.
Vote Ron Paul the man and not Ron Paul the republican. He is too human to be lumped in with the rest.
If you want to find out what he stands for listen to him directly now, in 1991, or in 1981 (its all over youtube). Its been the same thing since before Rick Perry was a democrat. Whatever you do don't let NBC, FOX, or CNN provide you with all the information you need to make a decision. It is so terribly biased it makes me sick.
Ron Paul the man and the pol, is a loon of the first order. His positions are not new and are well known--(legalized heroin, legalized prostitution, calls the constitution sacred but wants it changed to fit his agenda: i.e. change the constiutiton to prohibit anyone born here, but whose parents weren't, from being a citizen, change the constitution to prohibiit privacy rights from including women, isolationism including abandoning Israel and allowing a nuclear Iran, end tax collection, no federal flood insurance, (end all wasteful federal spending except earmarks okyd for his district) , called national recognition of Martin Luther King Jr. an "outrage", claimed only "5% of blacks have reasonable opinions", and that homosexuals should stay hidden from society.) Just because Governor Perry is as big an ignoramous is no reason to vote for the racist lunatic Ron Paul. Your hero is anti-American and that's in his saner moments.
Ah, back to sanity. Thanks Texican for getting us back to inthemiddle12's original thread. Except for a few 'all heart no brain' posters, this has been an incredibly heady and fascinating discussion of party loyalty vs independence in voting. Thanks inthemiddle12 for starting it in a manner that encouraged civility and respect for others' views & to Texican for bringing it back from the brink. Even most of the posts re: Ron Paul were either in admiration of his fierce independence, or a reasonable lamenting that a maverick has no real chance in a world of politics ruled by parties. Paul is running in Republican Primaries mostly because he wants coverage and even there is being painfully ignored by media. And that makes a huge point. When there are only two parties given any chance by most of winning, then most choose a candidate who offends them the least. The party's candidate must satisfy the base to be nominated, then both run like hell toward the middle to attract independents. Independents end up deciding most elections, but how often is it a choice between lesser of evils and how often is the one they vote for one they'd have chosen if not running against someone 'worse.'
I vote Democrat most of the time, but as often as not I voted for a different Dem at primary time - so even within the parties, its a lesser of evils choice much of the time. I sometimes wish that all candidates ran in a national primary, with a runoff between the top few rather than the last man/woman standing on each side. There have been Republicans I have much respect for, whether I'd vote for them or not. When Ronald Reagan said something I believed that he believed what he said - even if I believed none of it, same w/ Ike, same w/ Ron Paul.
Independent or 3rd party candidates virtually always lose at the national level because they can't compete financially, but they do usually drive the debate to some extent and force the majors to take positions on important matters. Woman suffrage, repeal of Prohibition, voting age at 18, abolition of slavery, etc were all popularized by 3rd party independents until the major parties felt forced to include them in their platform.
When I look thru history, I find myself agreeing more often w/ Democrats than with Republicans. The Republicans I like and admire the most (T. Roosevelt, Abe Lincoln, Dwight Eisenhower) would have no prayer of ever getting today's Republican nomination. I have Republican friends who reach the opposite voting choice w/ their own logical/long range analysis. Then I see others who are just "against" and therefore... I find that depressing.
So, inthemiddle12 and Texican; what does an independent do to influence the candidates he gets to choose from as opposed to choosing from the menu decided by the parties? I ask that seriously, in the spirit of understanding; just as it was started (thankfully) by inthemiddle.
Thanks again, for an unusually intelligent and civil discussion.