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Subscribe to RSSWas it that good of a night for the GOP?… We’ve moved from the stage where the attacks have been aimed at Obama, to the stage where they’re now directed at each other… Other impressions of last night’s debate: Romney emerged unscathed… Pawlenty might have helped himself, but did he go too far?… Bachmann knocked off her game a bit… Huntsman was a relative afterthought… Sarah Palin is today's State Fair shiny metal object… And the expectations game for Saturday’s Ames Straw Poll.
AMES, IA -- It’s pretty obvious to say that Rick Perry has to feel good after last night’s GOP presidential debate here. And it’s obvious that Mitt Romney emerged unscathed. But our biggest takeaway from the debate: It wasn’t a good night for the entire Republican Party, especially since it was such an opportunity for the party as this debate took place in the midst of what happens to be President Obama’s worst week in the White House. Team Obama could not have asked for a better visual than every single GOP candidate raising their hand saying they’d refuse to support a debt deal that had a 10-to-1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases. What’s more, the highlights of the debate were about them attacking each other than criticizing the president. We have now officially moved from the stage of the GOP presidential cycle where they’re attacking Obama, to the stage where they’re attacking each other. And this is one of the reasons why defeating a sitting president -- who isn’t facing a primary challenge -- isn’t easy, even in an economy like this one
*** Romney emerges unscathed: As for the individual performances last night, Romney -- once again -- left the debate unscathed as the other candidates (first Bachmann vs. Pawlenty, then Santorum vs. Paul) focused their attention elsewhere. He talked about the issues he wanted to talk about: the economy, jobs, his business record. And the candidates and moderators allowed him to dodge two questions. One was on the increased revenues he touted to get Massachusetts’ Triple-A rating (Romney’s answer never once referred to those revenues or closed loopholes). Two, when he was asked about Massachusetts’ health-care law, he invoked the 10th amendment (but what he didn’t say: that he once said his state’s plan should be a model for other states, and that he endorsed John Chafee’s health-care legislation in the early 1990s, which had a federal individual mandate). The question for Romney is whether it will continue to be as easy in future debates. Remember, Hillary Clinton won almost every debate she participated in during the ’08 campaign, but it was just one slip-up (in Philly in Oct. ‘07) that gave Obama and the other Dems an opening.
*** Did Pawlenty help himself? Meanwhile, in the debate before Saturday’s straw poll, you could argue that Pawlenty helped himself. He was VERY aggressive with Bachmann, who’s his biggest competition tomorrow. He questioned her record (“It's an undisputable fact that in Congress, her record of accomplishment and results is nonexistent”) and criticized her misstatements (“she's got a record of misstating and making false statements”). He even had a stronger critique of Romney’s health-care, but it lacked the passion of his exchanges with Bachmann. But if he sometimes came across as a fighter, Pawlenty also might have gone a little too far (example: his joke about mowing just one acre of Romney’s lawn). Perhaps most significantly, Pawlenty helped the Republican Party, providing the playbook how you go after Bachmann. He exposed her weaknesses in a way that Romney and Perry will appreciate months from now -- or, for that matter, if Pawlenty is able to pull a surprise on Saturday and help himself.
*** Bachmann knocked off her game a bit: As for Bachmann, she started off strong and didn’t back down from her first back-and-forth with Pawlenty (hitting him for his past support for cap-and-trade, as well as his onetime endorsement of an individual mandate). She was well prepared for that. But after her second tussle with T-Paw -- over a cigarette tax hike in Minnesota -- she seemed knocked off her game a bit. Her second hour lacked the fire she displayed in the first hour. And her submission-means-respect answer was puzzling. Our question: Did the rough exchanges and tough questions end up hurting her, or did they possibly backfire on her male rivals and moderators? In fact, the “submission” question got plenty of boos from the audience. On “TODAY,” she doubled down on saying that she wouldn’t increase the debt ceiling. That position doesn’t help her with the GOP business community and has to create an opening for Perry to be the Tea Party candidate who is at least going to explain a way to raise the debt ceiling.
*** Huntsman was a relative afterthought: In his first debate, Huntsman turned out to be more of an afterthought than you would have expected, and that might be a kind way to put it. Indeed, when he was in the spotlight, the focus was his moderate-leaning positions -- on the stimulus (backed a larger stimulus, with more tax cuts), on gay rights (favors civil unions), and on immigration (once backed comprehensive immigration reform). You’ve got to give credit to Huntsman for not disavowing those positions in front of the largely socially conservative audience. But you also realize why Huntsman is headed to New Hampshire today…
*** The rest: As for the rest, Gingrich turned out to be the Newt we all expected (engaging, argumentative), but a question about his staff defections wasn’t a “gotcha” question; it's a question about whether he can be run actually run the largest enterprise in the world: the U.S. government… Santorum didn’t have anything to lose and laid it all out there, but his one true moment came in his sparring with Ron Paul over Iran, reprising Rudy Giuliani’s role in ’07-’08 of hitting the Texas congressman on matters of foreign policy… And for Paul, he once again showed that his views – especially on foreign policy – are shared by just a sliver of the GOP electorate. Yes, he’s a godfather of the Tea Party, but most Republicans view Iran as a threat (especially to Israel)…. And Herman Cain? He didn’t have real moment to shine.
The gloves came off at Thursday's Republican presidential debate in Iowa. NBC's Chuck Todd reports.
*** The expectations game for Saturday’s straw poll: And now we move from last night’s debate to Saturday’s Ames Straw Poll. Here’s what we wrote when we handicapped the straw poll last week. One, Pawlenty needs a strong showing -- it’s hard to envision him winning the GOP nomination without finishing first or a very strong second on Saturday. Two, if Pawlenty has a lot riding on Ames, so does Bachmann, who’s looking to keep her front-runner status in the Hawkeye State, particularly with Perry now entering the field, too. Three, don’t overlook Romney; even though he’s not making a major play in Ames (in fact, he’s in New Hampshire today), he’s had the ability to pull off strong straw poll showings in past. And four, don’t forget about Ron Paul, who expects to finish no worse than third (Herman Cain also has said he’s expecting a top-three showing). Every major unaffiliated veteran Iowa Republican strategist believes Bachmann, Pawlenty, and Paul will be the top 3, just unclear of order. The chatter we hear out here goes like this: Bachmann's organization may be too Des Moines-centric; Pawlenty has the best organization, but there's been little passion on the trail and he's struggled to get folks to show up at events; Paul's campaign is much more sophisticated than it was four years. Also, many smart Iowa GOPers tell us: keep an eye on Santorum: he's been TIRELESS; If there is a surprise top-3 finisher, it could be him.
*** Our Glengarry Glen Ross rule: But as we also wrote last week, under the Ames Straw Poll’s Glengarry Glen Ross rule, third place isn’t a good place to be: First place gets you a Cadillac El Dorado; second place gets you a set of steak knives; and third place -- you're fired. In fact, per NBC's John Bailey, the last two third-place finishers in Ames (Sam Brownback in '07 and Liddy Dole in '99) dropped out two months after the straw poll.
*** Obama’s day: The president meets with business leaders at the White House to discuss the economy at 1:20 pm ET (it’s closed to the press). And then, at 2:35 pm, he welcomes the greatest NFL franchise in the land, the Green Bay Packers to the White House to celebrate their remarkable Super Bowl win earlier this year. Hey Bill Daley or David Plouffe, looking forward to the Aaron Rodgers autographed football (or baseball) that you'll be leaving in the NBC WH booth.
*** Obama’s day: The president meets with business leaders at the White House to discuss the economy at 1:20 pm ET (it’s closed to the press). And then, at 2:35 pm, he welcomes the Green Bay Packers to the White House to celebrate their Super Bowl win earlier this year.
*** Friday’s “Daily Rundown” line-up (live from Java Joes in Des Moines!): Debate reaction and straw poll predictions with Pawlenty 2012 Campaign Manager Nick Ayers, Obama 2012 Senior Strategist David Axelrod and Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA)… More 2012 with the Washington Post's Dan Balz, National Journal's Beth Reinhard, Roll Call's Shira Toeplitz and Des Moines Register alumnus David Yepsen of Southern Illinois University… Plus a preview of msnbc's "Making the Grade" special (12 pm ET on Sunday) with msnbc's Tamron Hall and TheGrio.com's Jeff Johnson.
Countdown to Iowa GOP straw poll: 1 day
Countdown to Wisconsin recall general for Dem senators: 4 days
Countdown to NV-2 and NY-9 special elections: 32 days
Countdown to Election Day 2011: 88 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 178 days
* Note: When the IA caucuses take place depends on whether other states move up
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Romney gets a stinging rebuke yesterday at a campaign stop in Iowa. Below is the exchange reported all over the internet yesterday. This excerpt was taken from ThinkProgress:
ROMNEY: There’s various ways of [preserving Social Security and Medicare’s solvency]. One is we could raise taxes on people. That’s not the way . . .
AUDIENCE: Corporations! Corporations!
ROMNEY: Corporations are people, my friend.
AUDIENCE: No they’re not.
ROMNEY: Of course they are. Everything corporations earn ultimately goes to people. Where do you think it goes?
AUDIENCE: It goes into your pocket!
ROMNEY: Whose pockets? Whose pockets? People’s pockets. Human beings, my friend.
Thank you again “SCOTUS” for your un-American “Citizens United” decision that gave corporations basically the same rights as people.
These people in Iowa were correct in that corporate money flows right into Romney’s pockets. He should know that as a Big Business owner. As ThinkProgress noted, “Romney has taken more money from corporate and other lobbyists than all the other GOP candidates put together, and this will likely only be the beginning for Romney if he becomes the GOP nominee”.
“Ever since the Supreme Court revealed that it shares Romney’s inability to distinguish between corporations and actual human beings, corporations have lined up to buy GOP victories in elections across the country. After Citizens United, conservative secret donors outspent progressives 8 to 1 in the 2010 election cycle”. He!!, they just spent $8 Million in the Darling recall election to defend a State Senator.
Talking about Corporations - The Wall Street Journal reported that “non-financial companies in the Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index were holding $1.12 trillion in cash and short-term investments in their most recent reports, up 59% from $703 billion in the third quarter of 2008.”
Tell me again why these guys where somewhere in the neighborhood 1/3 did not pay taxes, like GE, need tax cuts in order to promote hiring The is GOP/TP BS. They are not hiring because they need demand for the products and services. They only way you are going to increase demand is by putting more money in the pockets of citizens – period. Tax Cuts do not create Jobs, these guys are sitting on a barrel of Cash. We need Jobs. While UI and payroll tax reductions do give the people money for their pockets Jobs are the only long term sustainable plan to really create lots and lots of jobs. It also solves the problem of increasing revenues, which lowers the deficit/debt. It also lowers the claims for Unemployment Insurance, Food Stamps and Medicaid which also serves to lower the deficit/debt. This is a win/win scenario – It creates revenues at both the State and Federal Level and lowers the deficit as well. Two things that will make S&P and just about every economist (republican and democrat) on the planet happy in addition to the American people. The only people pissed that will not create jobs – the GOP/TP.
Speaking about Jobs – again yesterday I heard several people claim that President Obama did not offer any job bills. Lie just in 2011 1/01/2011 – 6/21/2011 see below.
And this does not include the $50 Billion Dollar Infrastructure Bill that would have created 35,000 jobs for every $1 Billion invested. This Bill was 100 % paid for by repealing the incentives to Big Oil. It passed the House, got a majority vote in the Senate and was filibustered by the right. This (Obstructionism) by the GOP/TP has cost Americans millions of jobs. Hey GOP/TP where are you bills for creating jobs? President Obama is trying to create jobs where are your bills there GOP/TP. In fact what have you done in the last 2+ years to move this country forward – anything??
Yesterday, I posted that there was something wrong with Navy’s claim about “creating 35,000 jobs for each $1 billion invested”:
“And this does not include the $50 Billion Dollar Infrastructure Bill that would have created 35,000 jobs for every $1 Billion invested.”
Two posters responded that:
Too bad for them that Politifact analyzed a statement by Virginia’s governor that is virtually identical to Navy’s (at 1/10th scale): “Gov. Bob McDonnell has been pitching his $4 billion transportation plan as a vehicle that will deliver thousands of new jobs to Virgina. "It is estimated that every $100 million spent on construction generates 3,000 new jobs,"
The Politifact analysis included the “multiplying” and “velocity” effects and concluded his statement was “Mostly False” on their Truth-o-meter based on their conclusion that the statement is “Barely True”:
Let's review.
McDonnell drew the data from a reputable government source. He used the most recent version of the study in making his claim. But there are several flaws in his conclusion.
He wrongly says $100 million in construction "generates 3,000 new jobs."
The FHWA says each $100 million block of spending "supported" 3,000 jobs, not created or generated. Much of that $100 million would preserve existing jobs, not create new ones,
And of those "supported" jobs, just one-third are directly tied to the construction project. More than half are supposed to stem from trickle-down spending as the wages received by construction or other road-related workers are spent. If the wages get diverted to paying down credit card debt or saving for retirement, that spending is diminished.
McDonnell had some rich data in his tank and overshot his exit. We rate his statement Barely True.
BTW, Navy is again repeating this same discredited claim today just above. LMAO!!!!!
http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2011/jan/22/bob-mcdonnell/gov-bob-mcdonnell-claims-his-4-billion-transportat/
What's the matter FR? Not enough questions about things like "Which do you prefer, Pepsi or Coke?" You know, the important issues facing our country.
If it doesn't go into people's pockets then someone is performing a massive fraud on my 401(k)/IRA. Are you trying to tell me that dividends from the companies I have invested in for my retirement does NOT go into my pockets? Are you then going to tell me that when I withdraw money in my retirement from these funds that I will not pay tax on those earnings?
What exactly are you trying to claim Navy? I mean what is your point?
BTW. I work for a corporation and the last time I checked I'm still human.
Last nights Republican debate was sure entertaining. It was more fun than a Barnum and Bailey Circus. Gosh, these Banana Republicans-Tea Bagger Clowns had me laughing and crying at the same time.
What I found funny is a statement made by Santorum concerning Gay Rights in Iran and the total Political Hypocrisy of these preachers on stage.
Then of course the biggie question of the 10 to 1 tax rate revenue increases answer of NO for all of them. Of course, they repeat all the time the line of," the will of the American People," and forgot that 80% of the people want such revenue increases.
I of course can't wait until Slick Rick get's into the next debate, because that will make this circus even more fun.
Still waiting for Navy to back up his claim on how much the GOP outspent the Democrats in Wisconsin recall. I asked for a link to his claim yesterday, and he comes back with ignorance and screeches about "You can't dispute the facts!". There were no facts to dispute, was just looking for proof of his claim.
Now that you have a valid dispute to other wacky claims of his Joe, you won't hear from Navy Boy.
Last night, on MSNBC, an idea to create a Super Committee for jobs creation was discussed. It made more sense than one to focus on spending cuts which will likely cost jobs rather than create any and that will have a negative impact on economic growth. While the long-term debt deserves serious attention and the debt Super Committee should look at the future, the best reduction of deficit and debt will occur by targeted spending to create jobs. Common sense but in a dysfunctional Congress with a loud crowd of rigid ideologues running the GOP, and the remainer of the GOP too fearful of losing their seats, common sense is nonexistent.
The Iowa Debates - Kids in a Sandbox.
So true Navy, Tom and Jody.
the last time I checked I'm still human.
_____________________________________
On FR most lefty liberal posters consider conservatives to be sub-human. Just ask the Nasty Redhead.
LOL!!!
The Iowa Debates - Kids in a
Sandbox.litterbox...Job1;
They proved to America yesterday that they have no intention of moving this country forward. They are still on the path of destroying this country. No increase in revenues, no economy, no country.
@Joe
I did realize I was leaving myself open with that last comment.
Johanna, I have to go with Coke. Pepsi sucks.
Obama thinks he's relevant in creating jobs? Obama is not really relevent on much of anything. And isn't just so cute that he's trying to campaign as a "Washington Outsider"? Obama, Congress isn't the problem, YOU'RE the problem.
Go on vacation Barack. Leave the country alone from your boring speeches for a couple of weeks.
Why no mention FR of Elizabeth Warren getting into the MA Senate Race?
The Repugs can kiss that seat good-by! lol
Elizabeth Warren - Far left academic and job killing liberal. Seems to be a lot of those kind of people already in the Democratic party, and in the Obama administration.
The situation after last night's debate by Republican presidential candidates is much the same as it was going in...at least as far as President Obama is concerned.
Obama's most formidable opponent remains his own record of achievement since January, 2009...a formidable opponent, indeed.
It's still primarily President Obama vs an alternative.
He poses the the greatest threat to his reelection.
Alan, don't ask Navy common sense questions that don't fit into his cut and paste logic. He can't answer them, because, if it isn't on think progress, he does not even understand the questions, let alone formulate answers.
Certain things do not change- corporations do not pay taxes, they COLLECT them. Raise taxes on corporations, and they will either pass them on to the consumers, or cut their labor forces, so as not to impact the very reason for their existence- to make profits.
It is this simple, elementary fact that eludes liberals. Well, not all liberals- there are those liberal politicians who understand it just fine.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/61129.html
So, Harry Reid puts the head of the DSCC, Patty Murray, on the "super committee"- nothing like multitasking, as in, use your position to raise money- and Nancy Pelosi puts on people who IMMEDIATELY have lobbyists exploiting their positions to raise money. Sure, the good congressman claimed to be shocked by the email. He sure could not claim he was not planning to be at the meeting, though, could he?
Anyone else notice we're
1619 comments into this sub-thread and there isn't a single comment from the usual RWNJ's on what they thought of the debate last night?Nothing about who they would or could support & why?
Not a ONE!
Only the worn out Obama this & Obama that... *yawn*
Seems as though Democrats have been doing the choosing lately, Feisty.
There's been a lot of love for Hillary out there.
Fiesty, I see FR wrote an entire article about Elizabeth Warren's openness to run but it posted about the same time as Thoughts. Good article, too.
Yeah, conservative posters, who did you like in the debate last night?
Thanks Jody!
I'll check it out...
PS: As usual - perfect job on your weekly wrap-up! ;o)
Didn't watch it. I have this thing called a life. Don't really care who the pundits decides who wins/loses a Republican debate in August2011 in Iowa.
Do you?
It's like watching baseball in April.
If you don't like the comments about Obama then consider that he is still President for the next 18 months, so for me at least they hold more relevance than anybody on stage last night.
An answer we would have liked to hear:
"10 to 1 cuts to revenues?? 10 to 1?? Are you kidding me??? For chrissakes of course I'd take that deal, only an idiot wouldn't."
Must See TV we didn't see:
After that "submissive" question Bachmann pauses for dramatic effect, bows her head with a deep sigh, then walks over and smacks that joker upside the head. Walks back to the podium and intones with a steely glare, "Next question."
Timely ad lib that might have worked:
After Pawlenty offered to cook dinner, Cain chimes in with: "If peas and kool-aid are on the menu, I'm bringing my own pizza." When T-Paw appears miffed Cain smiles broadly and says, "America has got to learn how to take a joke."
And once again Navy does direct copy and pastes from a Thinkprogress article as he has done in #1 above, and forgets to tell us he's doing so. Thinkprogress copyrights their material Navy. You should respect their work and reference it when you take it from them.
Thinkprogress article Navy took can be found at: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/08/11/293843/romney-defends-raising-retirement-age-to-protect-corporate-tax-breaks-corporations-are-people/
Thinkprogresses copyright policy:
5. CAPAF’s Proprietary Rights and Re-Use Policy. You acknowledge and agree that the information and materials presented on or through the Blog will remain the property of CAPAF and its licensors or providers, and are protected by copyright, trademark, patent, and/or other proprietary rights and related laws, rules and regulations.
Yesterday, Obama did something he had not done before- he corrected a mistake.
Couple weeks ago, he exhorted people to contact their representatives. They did, but it backfired on Obama, because they demanded that they stand firm- against Obama.
So, yesterday, he decided he needed to be clearer on what he wanted people to do- this time, he very plainly whined that they should COMPLAIN to their representatives about the republicans.
It remains to be seen if it will work.
I actually got a laugh out of his claim that he would be introducing a job creating idea every week. Really? Gee. How many of them will be along the lines of "shovel ready infrastructure jobs- but only if we have an infrastructure bank"? He really does think the electorate is stupid enough to fall for "son of stimulous"?
Newsflash- we're not. We did not want the first one, which was used to pay off his donors, and we sure as heck don't want the second one that he is banking on to pay off his current donors.
Actually, we're pretty much done with Obama, and are looking for a change.
Great post Navy. You cant get the true measure of Romney state fair meltdown without seeing the video. The derisive laughter and catcalls when Mittens proclaimed corporations to be people really showed how actual people respond to him.
It all actually started with a question from a retired senior about what Mitt would do to save Social Security and Medicare. His initial answer was "I wouldn't raise taxes." That's it, nothing whatsoever beyond "I wouldn't raise taxes." The people at the Iowa State Fair obviously recognized an avoidance instead of an answer. Much of the campaign media would leave it a that. They value their seats on the campaign bus and passes to campaign events. Citizens don't have that problem and they had no problem demanding a follow up no matter how many times they had to ask the same question.
Corporations are people. That's the answer for Mitt Romney. That's the answer, in fact, for the entire Republican Party. Maybe one day they'll also admit that in their eyes some people are more equal than others.
I think Ronald Reagan summed it up best.
Thanks for reminding us you ride the short bus!
Try reading for a change prior to running your trap off!
It's in the very first sentance - moron!
Thinkprogress is not a person. They invoke legal rules to prevent the dissemination of proprietory information. Something only an evil corporation would do.
It shows their not happy with any of their candidates Feisty. And who could blame them, all eight nine if you include Perry suck, not a real thought amongst them, just the same old tea party talking points.
They know their going to lose the congress, senate and white house in 2012. That's why their so hateful to everybody. You can tell by their post how worried they are.
Feisty:
You cannot defend what is indefensible. The GOP/TP is lost, they have nothing, no new ideas and the one they have suck and got this country a "Credit Downgrade".
They try apples to oranges comparisons trying to promote their failed agenda of the previous administration.
See, this is why I do not engage with the mushrooms. They have nothing to offer at all. They have turned their backs on the values, principles and morals that made this country great.
They renounced their oath to this country that theytook when sworn into office and replaced it with a doctrine from some clown called Norquist.
They are a joke. The problem is too many blind people following their un-American agenda.
Can you blame them? lmao...
The RWNJ's are already ratcheting up the rhetoric - it's all they've GOT!
Okay, Jody, I'll play.
I thought both Romney and Cain came off as the best of the group- clear, concise answers, delivered with strength and, dare I say it, both men looked "presidential".
I was angered by Gingrich, yet again. Why? Because the man is extraordinarily intelligent, knows what should be done- and is too damned undisciplined to be president.
Hat is a flaw he could have, and should have, taken care of YEARS ago.
That kind of waste makes me angry.
Happy now?
In the debate, Michele Bachmann touted her Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act. She was just bragging that she has more legislative experience and accomplishments than Obama did at this point in his campaign.
Im not a RWNJ Im a IWNJ and to be honest with you, any of them! With the exception of Mr Paul! Until I know who his running mate might be (because thats who we will eventually have as president!) And to be honest again. It wouldnt bother me if Mr Obama was re-elected with the caveat that we have a Republican Congress. Some one to keep the progressives at bay! JS1 I thought she came off pretty good, specially handling the husband question. At least she didnt say she would beat him up and eat him for dinner, like we know a certain redhead on this blog does with her mates! Why do I get the idea that her house looks like a wolf spider web!
Anyone else notice we're
1619 comments into this sub-thread and there isn't a single comment from the usual RWNJ's on what they thought of the debate last night?Nothing about who they would or could support & why?
_______________________________________________
It's waaaaaay too early to start paying attention to next year's election. If "a week is a lifetime in politics", 15 months is a millenium. Yesterday was a beautiful day with filet and AK sockeye salmon on the grill. The last thing I want to waste my time on is watching a bunch of politicians play to a bunch of corn farmers holding a straw poll. I am happy to see that many FR lefty liberals wasted their time doing that.
LOL!!!
Nonsense, JoAnna.
Then-Senator Obama had already gone on record against raising the debt ceiling.
Only spiders dont eat that much popcorn.....and ugggh butter!
Why yes I am - especially since you took me off ignore.. lol
You little devil! ;o)
Job1:
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught that. Santorum doesn't give a crap about gay rights here, but suddenly he's concerned about it in Iran? I certainly hope one of his opponents nails him on that in a future debate, it'd be fun to watch
To the crowd in Iowa booing Chris Matthews: What did you sheep want, for him to throw softballs at these guys? I for one loved his questions. He called them on their current rhetoric versus what they've actually said or done in the past. I'd love to see those types of questions in the actual Presidential debates after the GOP chooses a nominee. The last thing I want is someone to sit there and ask crap, like "What is your position on the economy" . All that leads to are stale talking points. Matthews ruffled some feathers last night and caught a couple of them a bit off guard. To Newt, if you can't handle it, get off the stage.
All in all, it was rather entertaining to watch. Maybe now people will see Bachmann for the fraud she is.
Some preliminary campaign finance numbers for JoAnna, who is bugging Navy about this. The publication source is Mother Jones, but the underlying source is the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, which is our campaign watchdog organization here in Wisconsin. You can count on these numbers to be relatively accurate.
The upshot is that spending on both sides is about equal, but disclosure is not. Guess which way that breaks. And spending by candidates themselves, while obscenely high, was only a drop in this proverbial bucket.
Geyser of dark money, indeed.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/08/wisconsin-recall-americans-prosperity-dark-money
"What's the matter FR? Not enough questions about things like "Which do you prefer, Pepsi or Coke?" You know, the important issues facing our country."
Speaking of imporatant issues, just look at all the rich content in the above post from Smiff.....Kind of like all her other posts, huh?
Hey, Smiff- I bet IF Frist Read was the ones asking the questions last night, you'd really be cranked up this morning, wouldn't you? Damned right you would.
You don't engage because you don't have leg to stand on. You say people "Don't dispute your (self proclaimed) 'facts' ", but when they do, you run like a coward and hide under your rock. You have no ideas of your own, just copy and pastes from leftist propaganda web sites. If you want to keep embarrassing yourself, be our guest.
John B:
Very true. The GOP/TPis not very good at answering a direct question. Instead theyspout off a talking point and then say well I answered the question. Or they make invalid comparisons to something else trying to relate the two hoping nobody will notice.
They are also have very poor reading skills when the very first line of my post says that the excerpts were from ThnikProgress and then say I did not mention it. It is right there in black and white. They are outright liars and ignorant to boot.
Collectively they have the IQ of a dead elephant. Forget the concepts of morals, shame, integrity, honesty, etc. They renounced those years ago and the new GOP/TP are really AINOS.
This is why I have them all on ignore and refuse to waste any time with their crap. On occasion I will open one up if I see a comment that peaks my interest from underneath they crap, but for the most part I just ignore them and life is happier.
AINOS => "Americans in Name ONLY). - PERIOD.
Too bad, this country deserves better from the GOP/TP.
"If it doesn't go into people's pockets then someone is performing a massive fraud on my 401(k)/IRA. Are you trying to tell me that dividends from the companies I have invested in for my retirement does NOT go into my pockets? Are you then going to tell me that when I withdraw money in my retirement from these funds that I will not pay tax on those earnings?"
Alan- all that money sitting on the 'sidelines' we hear so much about that the corporations are holding onto. Is that in YOUR 401-K? Sure as hell isn't in mine. Acutally, mine just lost a bunch because of the downgrade. You know- the one that would have been worse had Bachmann had her way and let the country default.
AM, nice of you to caddie for Navy. But Navy is a big boy, let him defend himself.
Poor Navy - doesn't like anyone disagreeing with him. Bet he misses his little private musings behind the Great Wall of LibsRUs, where everyone agreed with him and his life was nirvana.
Mo,
None of the repubs will win a Nobel Peace Prize for bullsh!t, but none is less qualified than Obama was.
Cain, the pizza guy with no political experience has executive experience and campaigns as a problem solver. If serving plastic cheese turns the loses around - he solved the problem.
Don't like his pizza - go borrow a pigeon from Feisty.
Obama did not have 1 SECOND of executive experience. Name one problem that America cares about that Obama has solved. Has he created ONE NEW NET JOB even under his own term?
Name one thing that is better today than it was 2 1/2 years ago.
Heck - even the crazy old uncle in the basement from last night at least gets half the stuff right - Obama cannot get one thing right and is reduced to the role of community organizer again yesterday afternoon .......
"Call your Congressman and complain about the repubs."
Pathetic.
Mixed is right - It is about Obama ..... Obama's record, his non-performance, his epic failure is his most formidable opponent ........ and formidable it certainly is.
"You cannot defend what is indefensible."
-U.S. Navy Disabled Veteran-Retired-
But, Navy...
You defend the Obama Administration's record of economic growth and job creation on a regular basis.
That proves it can be done.
Or, at least attempted, anyway.
Anna Molly:
Great posts today and thank you for the feedback on Wisconsin. What a weird week.
"In the debate, Michele Bachmann touted her Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act..."
With all her great intellect, I was hoping she (Bawkmann) would elaborate on the "Veggie Freedom of Choice Act" that she would produce so no one would have to eat peas that didn't want them.
It's still in there contributing to the asset value of the company (something that cannot be said for the SS trust fund). I have 15 - 20 year window to retirement so I haven't gained or lost anything over the last week. Google the term unrealized gains/losses. Yes it's fun to look at the number at the bottom of the account but right now, just like the debate last night, pretty meaningless.
Out of interest what would you like the companies sitting on the money to do? Apparently Apple has something like 90B in cash. What should they do? They obviously have enough going into R&D. Expanding their production would be oversees as would their market expansion. I still think companies are hoarding cash because they do not want to rely on the banks for short term credit.
Fantastic news about Elizabeth Warren getting into electoral politics. She's knows more about how the consumer credit market works than anyone not already in the back pocket of the banking industry.
Of course, not being an active participant in the fleecing of the American middle class she's an enemy to Conservatives and they seek to see her destroyed. Read from the Amazon review of her book "All Your Worth: The Ultimate Lifetime Money Plan" and see if you think this is the work of the radical described by the GOPTP;
That sounds more like the advice that Conservatives here derisively spit at posters who point out things have gotten progressively tougher for the middle class, not the rantings of a radical Socialist as she's been painted by the GOPTP.
Then again, in their eyes realizing that corporations aren't people makes you a radical.
My bad. That will be one of the only records of his in the Obama Presidential Library (aisle 4, bottom 2 shelves of the Chicago Public Library).
Think Progress wasn't heckled at the Iowa State Fair yesterday, Mitt Romney was.
Think Progress wasn't the only media outlet to report Mitt's meltdown.
As a public statement by a politician in a public venue his comments are in the public domain.
Of course FR Conservatives would rather pick nits and feign outrage at points that don't exist than talk about the real lesson of the exchange.
In the eyes of the GOPTP corporations are people. People who are better than you and deserve better treatment than you.
The downgrade was for US bonds Buzz. US bonds are doing fine Buzz, no problem at all. Stocks are all over the place this week because of a weak world economy and a slowing US economy. So if you had your money in those downgraded bonds Buzz, you did just fine this week.
You do understand the difference between stocks and bonds, right Buzz?
So, US Navy says "Romney got a stinging rebuke at a campaign stop," and the second line in the article isn't about the stop, but is about the debate and says, " And it’s obvious that Mitt Romney emerged unscathed."
I shouldn't hold it against him. The radical Republicans do the same thing as the radical Democrats; they pay attention to the part of the news they want to, because they are party fans and not actually making choices between candidates.
Yeah, I didn't think you would like those numbers. It's tough to spin the truth.
LA Times headline this morning - "Republicans get Feisty in Iowa."
Cracked me up.
AM - Here's another vote conspiracy for you can chase your tail over. This should keep you busy for a few weeks.
Cowles' vote total adjusted down, but he staill wins.
By Tom Tolan of the Journal Sentinel
Aug. 12, 2011 9:13 a.m. | Sen. Rob Cowles (R-Allouez) still won his recall election Tuesday, but not by as much as was reported on election night.
The Associated Press reported unofficial results Tuesday night that showed Cowles defeating challenger Nancy Nusbaum of De Pere with 60% of the votes, 27,543 to 18,039.
But the Outagamie County clerk’s office discovered a snafu in their results – somebody entered numbers in the wrong columns for Kaukauna, so Nusbaum was credited with 0 votes for that city, when she actually won it.
Bottom line: Cowles actually got 57.5% of the votes, winning 27,037 to 19,974.
Source: http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/127583908.html
LMAO - Thanks Mark!
PS: You couldn't get me anywhere near IA this weekend...
While the spending is more or less even, here's the big difference between the two sides: The left-leaning groups usually disclose their donors, while the right-leaning groups mostly don't. For McCabe, the geyser of dark money is the big story of the recalls. He says two-thirds of the recall spending derives from undisclosed sources, and he blames the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision for allowing so much anonymous spending.
Here's another mysterious source of money funded by the Koctopus
National Director of Koch's Americans for Prosperity Created Mysterious WI Gun Group, Coordinated on Misleading Absentee Ballot Mailings
Creator of 'United Sportsmen of Wisconsin, Inc.', John Connors, is a long-time AFP affiliate, has history of deceptive campaigns...
days prior to their absentee mailing having gone out, and a one-pageUnitedSportsmenWI.com page featuring little more than an application to join their group, along with the promise that, in doing so, "you will join a network of thousands of sportsmen across Wisconsin who will stay informed about important issues and band together to protect their rights."
Examination of the HTML for the application web page reveals that the form is an iFrame embed from a webpage at: http://jconnorsandco.us2.list-manage2.com
A reader who filled out the form found and then confirmed her web application via email, was invited to "continue to our website." Clicking on that link then took her to the website of J Connors Company, LLC at JConnorsAndCo.com.
Neither the UnitedSportsmenOfWi.com or JConnorsAndCo.com websites seem to actually offer any information whatsoever about gun ownership or hunting legislation or issues.
So who is John W. Connors?
http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/647513/national_director_of_koch%27s_americans_for_prosperity_created_mysterious_wi_gun_group,_coordinated_on_misleading_absentee_ballot_mailings
Okay -- let's see how that might go.
A republican, who was always expected to win, actually did win in a traditionally republican district, even after subtracting the votes that were credited, either accidentally or deliberately, to him, rather than to his democratic opponent.
Thus, conspiracy or not, the Republican didn't win by as much as everyone originally thought, which probably supports my own analysis that this election actually shows blue shift, rather than red.
And Republicans must have been trying to cover that up by making an error in tallying the votes that would be easily caught.
Which is not the same as what happened in Waukesha during the Supreme Court election because, in that case, the votes were originally recorded on an dedicated computer drive by a former legislative lackey for Prosser himself that was hidden away from anyone else's scrutiny for a day or two before the regrettable "error" that changed the election results was announced, first on a right-wing blog, and then to the media.
Would that be about it?
"You do understand the difference between stocks and bonds, right Buzz?"
Well, sure I do. But silly me- I see the S&P hit of Friday, then on Monday, markets overseas and over here start the big plunge. Completely unrelated, I guess...........
Also, Anna Molly
Graves details several misleading television spots by a group calling themselves "Citizens for a Strong America" (CSA), which aired earlier this year attacking WI Asst. Attorney General JoAnne Kloppenburg and supporting state Supreme Court Justice David Prosser prior to their exceedingly contentious and disputed election contest last April (as covered in great detail by The BRAD BLOG.)
Graves investigative reporting at CMD reveals that CSA was a very well-funded front group with little more than a claim to having a 501(c4) non-profit status and a mailbox address at a UPS Store.
"This mysterious group lists no information about its leaders, employees, or funders on its website, citizensforastrongamerica.net," reported Graves before updating her story with the discovery that the Internet domain for the group had been purchased by John W. Connors of Milwaukee, who quickly had its Internet domain registration set to private after the CMD report was published.
So, the voters of Wisconsin are now being bombarded by a virtually anonymous group being bankrolled to the tune of perhaps a million dollars or more to run ads which are demonstrably misleading. There is no physical office a voter can go to in order to complain or demand the group's tax filings. And even if those filings were available, they would not disclose who CSA's major financial backers are. CSA is exploiting the fact that
Justice Prosser and a narrow majority of the Wisconsin Supreme Court enjoined the state from enforcing rules to require key disclosures by groups like CSA running so-called "issue" ads to influence elections.
Messages left by The BRAD BLOG at both Connors business phone number, as well as at the offices of J Connors & Company, LCC, where an associate said Connors was currently on the phone, have so far gone unanswered.
Nonetheless, evidence seems to suggest that, in addition to the money that AFP spent on their own misleading absentee ballot mailer, they are likely to have funded --- or at the very least, coordinated --- with Connors' United Sportsmen of Wisconsin front group on their misleading absentee ballot mailers.
So, who, other than the Koch brothers, funds Americans for Prosperity (and thus "United Sportsmen of Wisconsin" most likely)? AFP is notoriously secretive about their own funding sources, despite their widespread political activities across virtually every state in the nation, including their funding of the so-called "grassroots" Tea Party movement, as well as the Global Warming Denialist movement.
The vaunted secrecy behind some of the Koch brothers' anonymous sources of funding for their political operations, however, may soon experience a few cracks. But more on that in the coming days...
By Brad Friedman | Sourced from Brad Blog
Posted at August 9, 2011, 6:07 am
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All the Obama campaign has to do is run that clip of Romney declaring that "corporations are people too" over and over and Romney is dead, they could also throw in the fact that Romney spends $800 to get his hair cut, but they wouldn't have to. Seriously people who would want someone stupid enough to make such a statement in public as their President, good grief. I bet his handlers gave him a good spanking after that campaign killing blunder.
Come on Navy... Surely you can distinguish between GE's envronmental windfall from the Government provided by the liberal elites and Obama from othe rmanufacuring companies. This is not GOP BS... IT is liberal BS!!! Surely you know that GE's President now is working for Obama in a major consulting role while he is directing his company to move even more jobs overseas. That is no GOP BS... It is liberal hypocracy!
Didn't mean to copy that much info in post #1.65 - Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:43 AM EDT
However, Some may find it useful.
@JoAnnaSmith1
AM, nice of you to caddie for Navy. But Navy is a big boy, let him defend himself.
WTH...? your back should be broken from all the sh!t you carry for the radical, lunatic, T-baggers
Maybe you can take a little of your time and explain the relationship.
Hey, Driveby, that sure was a "light bulb" moment all right!
She is toast,...too bad because she is certainly one of the more 'presentable' in the field of nit wits. I respect her 100 times more than Sarah Palin. Which sadly only makes her qualified for PTA in my book; but it's high praise from me.
LOL,
Why were the Unions/Democrats wasting their time and money running a recall election in a district they expected to lose?
Feisty,
Re: Senator Brown and Elizabeth Warren
A recent poll had him at 73% approval and the poll was commissioned by the democrats. He even beats Warren by 51% to 34%
by Jim Geraghty
Tags: DSCC, Scott Brown
Heading into 2012, Massachusetts senator Scott Brown appeared to be the most vulnerable Republican incumbent. He won in unique circumstances against a colossally flawed rival, and in a presidential year, Democrats are likely to come out in droves. But he may be in less trouble than widely believed, at least for now:
A public poll from earlier this month wasn’t quite as shiny for Brown, but he still looked pretty solid:
The poll also found 52 percent wanted Brown reelected, and he led Rep. Michael Capuano 51–38 and Obama advisor Elizabeth Warren 51–34.
Interestingly, that poll found few Republicans all that dissatisifed with Brown, who hasn’t always toed the GOP line: “96 percent of Republicans support him in the suggested matchups.”
Obviously, it’s early. But so far, this would seem to be particularly strong position for Brown.
"New York State voters disapprove 49-45 percent of the job President Obama is doing, a huge drop from his 57-38 percent approval June 29 and the first time the president ever has had a negative score in New York, according to a Quinippiac University poll released today."
-Quinippiac University Polling Institute, August 12, 2011-
Looks like dangerfield isn't the only New Yorker unhappy with President Obama's leadership.
If he's sliding in New York, he's sliding everywhere.
For a group of conservatives you seem to know very little about how a corporate structure works. A corporations (most in America actually) actually do obtain and hold cash which they have no intent to spend or distibute. These cash reserves are specifically called out in their 10k related to permanent reinvestment under (FKA) APB 23.
If anyone who was conservative could truly read what I see go through the books and records of major corporations in America and not indicate that there is a disconnect between the argument of taxation of corporations I would be surprised. Great example: Both a corporation and individual are "in the business" of gaining wealth to utilize as they see fit. But if a corporation takes out a loan to say, buy a car, to use in their "business" and an individual does the same there is a completely different tax answer with regard to the taxes due to the US government. If you can find me a solid footing argument for why this difference makes sense I'd love to hear it.
There is a big misconception among conservatives that the corporate environment is the cure to the ills of a big government take-over of our lives. If they could ever get a glimpse of the trash that runs through the P&L's of most large corporations they would change that tune.
Similarly liberals should not be so quick to judge a corporation on its face. They do provide most people with their jobs and therefore have good value to our society. How those "entities" are viewed and treated should be their biggest problem.
Fed UP Senior -- You are correct they are benefitting from "green" initiatives. Just as oil/gas benefits from subsidies. GE also had a huge write-off of losses in GE Capitol. (Housing crisis) This is why they paid "0" taxes. The write-offs are nothing new for any corporation. Clean tax reform may help all in the Free Market in that each business would have to stand or fall of their own accord.
"Why were the Unions/Democrats wasting their time and money running a recall election in a district they expected to lose?"
Why are the big-monied businesses/Republicans/TeabagEES wasting their time and money supporting a cast of Jesus-freaks that disdain most American citizens, and have no chance of winning the next presidential elections?
Getting scared, aren't you Buzz? Things are sinking fast for your guy Barack. Keep lashing out, it is amusing to watch.
Still waiting for your economic genius of a mind to tell us how the stock market crashing earlier this week is related to the US Bond downgrade. Now that is some entertainment no one will want to miss.
Thank you, basedrum777; terrific information.
First Read is really trying to stretch it: Team Obama could not have asked for a better visual than every single GOP candidate raising their hand saying they’d refuse to support a debt deal that had a 10-to-1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases.
The truth is - The GOP is a whole lot smarter and have much better recollections than Obama could ever have. The donkeys have pulled this crap (ratios of spending cuts to revenue increases) several times in the past and have renigged on them EVERY... got that... EVERY time. Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me.
Too bad about the US Appeals Court in Atlanta ruling against ObamaCare. Too bad, for Obama. What's Obama going to campagin on after the USSC rules against his master failure?
However the very conservative 6th district court of appeals
in Cincinnati found the law to be constitutional earlier this year.
Sounds like a “push” to me.
OUCH!!!!
This is not good for ClunkerCare supporters. The Barry admin must appeal this decision within 90 days, which means this case could in up in the SC in the 2011-12 term. Which means a decision would be issued by June 2012 at the latest. Right in the middle of the Presidential campaign. I look forward to hearing our Constitutional law professor President explaining why he supported an unconstitutional law like ClunkerCare. LOL!!!
From Politico:
Court says mandate unconstitutional
By: Jennifer Haberkorn
August 12, 2011 01:29 PM EDT
The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday ruled that the health care reform law’s requirement that nearly all Americans buy insurance is unconstitutional, a striking blow to the legislation.
The suit was brought by 26 states — nearly all led by Republican governors and attorneys general. The Department of Justice is expected to appeal.
The 2-1 ruling marks the first time a judge appointed by a Democrat has voted to strike down the mandate. Judge Frank Hull, who was nominated by former President Bill Clinton, joined Chief Judge Joel Dubina, who was appointed by George H.W. Bush, to strike down the mandate.
Judge Stanley Marcus, in a dissenting opinion, said the mandate is constitutional. He was also appointed by Clinton.
The panel partially upheld a ruling issued in January by Judge Roger Vinson, who struck down the entire health reform law. However, the 11th Circuit said that the rest of the legislation can stand even if the mandate is unconstitutional.
The panel also said that the law’s expansion of Medicaid is constitutional, ruling against the states.
The federal government will have 90 days to appeal to the Supreme Court or ask the entire 11th Circuit to review the ruling.
However the very conservative 6th district court of appeals
in Cincinnati found the law to be constitutional earlier this year.
_____________________________
And that is a very good thing because the fact that there are two opposite Appeals Court decisions pretty much guarantees the SC will accept the case. The sooner the better.
"What Congress cannot do under the Commerce Clause is mandate that individuals enter into contracts with private insurance companies for the purchase of an expensive product from the time they are born until the time they die," the opinion said.
You think this is constitutional? I am for universal healthcare but this this not the means. What is the limiting factor if this is declared constitutional?
"Still waiting for your economic genius of a mind to tell us how the stock market crashing earlier this week is related to the US Bond downgrade."
I guess I won't be able to, as long it was pure coincidence, as you suggest. That IS what you are saying, right?
Drive-By, You are on fire today!!
Nice job.
I'm still not seeing anything from conservatives about the debate, and who they support and why.
The only way to see who these candidates are is for mainstream media to drill down. The softball questions from friendly media is worse than no information at all. And if all these candidates can do is repeat the same talking point that the other one is repeating, where is that going to get any of them? The only way to know their positions versus majority views is to see candidates interact with actual voters, like the exchange with Mitt -- that did not go well for him.
If Dems run ads with the video of all the candidates raising their hand that they would not support a 10-1 cut to revenue proposal, followed with a photo of Paul Ryan and a message like: "Republicans would destroy Medicare rather than increase revenue" they will lose.
That not one candidate was willing to differentiate his or herself by not raising his/her hand shows none of them will win. If someone crunched the numbers, of the balanced budget amendment dictatorship with spending of GDP at only 16-18%, and based on Boehner's revenue of $800 billion x 10 = spending cuts, which would be the most draconian? These candidates answered a question without knowing the answer.
And that leaves Perry. I'm hearing he is least popular in his own state. What if he lost his own state in a national election? People say he is Bush without a brain. Katie Couric, someone, interview this guy and see if he is dumb as a bag of rocks.
"Still waiting for your economic genius of a mind to tell us how the stock market crashing earlier this week is related to the US Bond downgrade."
I guess I won't be able to, as long it was pure coincidence, as you suggest. That IS what you are saying, right?
_______________________________________________
A CNBC commentator recently nailed the answer: He said that the debt ceiling dabate was a major distraction for the stock markets, both here and in other countries, and when it was finished, they looked around at the world's economy and said "Holy sh!t!!! it stinks," So, yeah, the S&P downgrade didn't help, but, the sh!tty economy is the real reason for the stock market's recent decline.
Vote republican? Yeah, cause voting in George the war criminal worked out so well, didn't it?
Depending on approval ratings, the president may need to provide more specifics for recovery, but he is the incumbent. Just bashing the president is not a platform. If you want to remove one solution, you must present an alternative solution. The onus is on the opponent to provide specifics other than just "cutting" taxes, or spending. What is their plan to create jobs, and stimulate the economy? Because "cutting" isn't going to do either of those things. When are conservatives going to get this through their heads?
Again Buzz, just what is the coincidence? The US bond market got downgraded, and instead of people pulling their money from it, they invested more into it. What part of that is confusing to you? The bond market didn't take a dive Buzz, the stock market did. You apparently are clueless to what the difference is.
Your coincidences Buzz are like the idiot (you in this case) who says "The markets went down because I ate ice cream last night". To you that notion is not only feasible, but is probable.
But at least you play the part of the clueless clown well, so you got that going for you.
California tom, I will take Iowa's debates, economy and unemployment rate over californias sandbox kids any day of the week.
TP - I would like the media to drill down on obamas rhetoric as well, maybe we can get some credible answers.
I learned long ago as a registered democrat the machinations of the iowa democrat caucus process that if your votes for any candidate didn't meet some minimum you were expected to support your next best candidate in order to move onto the next level.
In light of this being but a straw poll to show who the viable republican candidates may be, I hope you have a long wait in FR conservatives posting what you want to see on a very liberal blog platform. Looks like you will have to wait until after the 2012 nominating conventions for any hope of an answer to your question.
What video are you referencing? Good luck with trying to convince anyone that ryan wants to destroy medicare when all he proposed was a means to maintain its solvency. Regardless, where are the senates counter to address medicare solvency? Do we have to wait until medicare insolvency is knocking on the door?
Should we tell the kiddies that the little brown pieces aren't Tootsie Rolls?
american -- The media does drill down on President Obama. That's the difference between FAUX news and adherence to the 11th Commandment versus other media and progressives who are just as critical of the president as conservatives are.
The Iowa straw poll is a joke, I'll give ya that. It's bought and paid for, and participants don't even have to listen to the candidates. Any-who, the video I'm referencing is the tape of the candidates all raising their hands against a hypothetical 10 to 1 spending cuts to revenue. I would have demanded actual figures before answering that. It'll be a great clip for campaign ads.
As for Paul Ryan's plan, it is a plan to privatize Medicare by forcing seniors to try to buy health insurance from the for-profit private sector. We all know you can't get affordable individual health insurance by the time you hit your 50s, so this is effectively ending Medicare altogether.
But he suggests vouchers you say? That's even more intellectually dishonest, because this effectively mandates that seniors must buy health insurance from the for-profit private sector. How is this any different from the mandate in the Affordable Health Care Act?
To say Ryan's plan is to maintain solvency of Medicare is HI-larious. Man, lay off the Kool-Aid.
OK Joe in Albany
While you are down at the Junior College signing up for that economics class, you might as well add remedial reading as well. The article you reference had no inference to the velocity of money. It only addressed how the original jobs would be broken down. Once you pass economics you will have a better understanding of the whole process. Really, you don't understand that someones 100 paycheck becomes someone elses income when spent? How do you keep up with the big dogs?
sonmanvb:
[I think Ronald Reagan summed it up best.
You DO know Reagan had Alzheimer's, don't you? Even his son believes he showed symptoms of it WHILE he was president...
...conservatism is a mental illness...
TP - got any links that says that the long term projections for medicare is one of solvency? Solvency projections bandied about on the net put insolvency occurring somewhere around 2024 to 2029.
Funny on how obamas debt commission pointed to medicaid, medicare and SS as being the largest creators of debt going forward. Doesn't matter if you like it, ryans plan is but one viable option. Where is the senates passed plan or even obamas written plan?
Since medicare currently does not pay for all costs a supplemental private insurance plan is still required for any attempt at full coverage. Regardless, a voucher system is still one of government aid whether through the current system or a voucher system.
Yes, under ryans plan, medicare will end as we know it today if you are 55 or younger, The current system for those over 55 stays intact. BTW - where in the ryan plan does it say that the private insurers can refuse coverage? Please do try to argue the affordabilty of one over the other. Medicare currently hides increasing provider cost under the illusion of solvency through deficit spending and the voucher system will put increasing costs more into the face of the seniors every year.
I will ask it again, where is the senates alternate plan to the house passed FY2012 budget plan? Why hasn't obama lit a fire under the senate to even consider an alternate FY2012 budget?
Now, that's what I would call an understatement!
The sea is beginning to churn & it's going to be rough sailing from here on out...
Well, at least until a viable candidate arrives in the life boat... lol
PS: And that candidate wouldn't be the Wasilla Hillbilly - she's landing in a bus!
Feisty:
I loved the comment that Bachmann looked like a deer in the headlights. These guys are way over the top. If America was watching last night they now know these guys have nothing except tax cuts, tax cuts and more tax cuts for the 2%.
No jobs and no stimulus for the economy - Same old same old.
Was she really *blowing kisses*? WTF?
Did Marcus teach her how to do that? ;o)
30 years of tax cuts and trickle down has accomplished nothing except continuing to soak the middle class!
Bachmans' voice reminds me of a slow minded TSA employee announcing what gate to go to for your flight.
No kidding Tom!
Feisty - I couldn't agree more....all those candidates and not one of them with any ideas on how to create jobs and get this economy moving again....just tax cuts and more tax cuts. What it tells me is President Obama will have no problem looking like the adult in the room with this bunch or with Rick "God Sent Me to Save This Country After I Secede From It" Perry.
RE-peat-the-lie-to-the-PUBLIC-ans are nothing but CON-MEN who have sold their souls to the corporations.
TSA employee?
Terribly Stupid Administration
edit:
Hey Paul
Where ya been?
You could put these two statements to almost any Tea Bag. But it sure was nice to see the former Republican Governor of Minnesota attack a Republican member from his State's Congressional Delegation with those correct statements. Interesting... "Now I know why tigers eat their young."
Okay, All of you Right Wing Nuts and Tea Bags (one and the same) there's the evidence that the GOTP is not serious about solving our Country's problems. Most likely enhancing those problems.
The GOTP the UnAmerican Party.
or quite possibly under it! Does the GOP have a viable canidate? Not from what we've seen so far. Boring! I'd rather watch paint dry.
This bunch of candidates will go done as skid marks on the toilet bowl.
What a bunch of morons! No taxes to fix what's wrong? Unbelievable.
While certainly not a fan of Bachmann (or any of the other GOP candidates/wanna-be's either), I thought the "submission" question to her was seriously lame. And to give credit where due, she actually handled her response very well.
But then again, it was a FOX News-sponsored debate and a FOX News-sponsored panelist that asked the question.
Ho-hum...
"And that's the way it is...." this week.
Friday evening Standard & Poors downgraded America's credit rating to AA+. Turns out S&P made a $2 trillion math error which Treasury pointed out, and OOPS, Treasury was correct. What the heck? A 2 trillion mistake--did they misplace a decimal point, a comma or were their batteries low? S&P rated Lehman Brothers AA one month before it went bankrupt. In fact, S&P gave top credit marks to all the financial institutions prior to the taxpayers bailing them out in 2008. Wall Street suffered whiplash all week. Apparently investors decided S&P was the problem and bailed out of the market--heading straight to U.S. Treasury Bonds and Gold.
Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner said Congress owns the downgrade because they have the power of the purse. S&P agreed and said so in their explanation.
Michele Bachmann was in the Pizza Ranch parking lot in Newton, IA, Friday. She bashed President Obama for not cancelling his 50th birthday Bar-B-Que. Seriously, what good would that do? Her real problem is that she's jealous because President Obama is younger than she is.
Bachmann said she wants President Obama to "reassure" Wall Street. Yeah, well, Bachmann and her Tea Party incompetents were so reassuring to Wall Street that S&P downgraded the US credit rating--not because of the debt but because of the intransigence of the GOPTP. We know because it's in their report.
Saturday, we learned of the tragic death of 30 American military personnel, 22 were Navy SEALS. Bless our heroes and their families. Bless our heroes and their families. How sad that these days just about the only time we hear about the two on-going wars is when tragedy strikes.
Rick Perry and the righteous right held a Prayer Rally on Saturday. 30,000 filled the 70,000 seat stadium. Not far away at a nearby stadium 100,000 Texans lined up to receive free, donated school supplies. Governor Perry would have served his God better by going to the other stadium and praying with the 100,000 Texans who can't afford to buy school supplies for their children--spending time with the poor might open his eyes to reality.
A Wall Street Journal poll revealed American priorities: 62% support job creation, 29% support spending cuts, 8% support both; 47% trust President Obama, 33% trust the GOPTP.
Mitt Romney's mystery million dollar donor, Edward Conard, admitted he started a company in April solely for the purpose of donating a cool million to Mr. Mitt. Thanks, SCOTUS, for making it legal to form companies for the sole purpose of funneling cash to campaigns. What a country!
Monday, Tea Partyers in Wisconsin cheered the S&P downgrade of the nation's credit rating proving once and for all that tea-drinking sheep are fools who can vote--no doubt a good many of the cheering crowd lost their 401K shirts in the stock market this week but, hey, they "believe".
Iowa Gov. Branstad predicted the Ames GOP Straw Poll "could be won by anyone". Brilliant. Who knew?
Dr. Jill Biden and former GOP Senator Dr. Bill Frist visited a refugee camp in Kenya Monday to call attention to the horrors of drought, famine and the Somalia rebel war. Famine killed more than 29,000 Somalia children in the past three months. Hard to imagine that nearly as many children starved to death as attended Perry's Prayer Rally.
Tim Pawlenty spread a lot of "manure in a windstorm" around Iowa this week. He was joined by Romney, Bachmann, Cain and a host of other cow-paddy tossers. Perry plans to join them Sunday but first he is making a stop in South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union, to announce he's running for President. Palin couldn't stand being left out; she resuscitated her bus tour and arrived Thursday to crash all their parties.
The Pro-Life Bus arrived in town Tuesday. A crowd of about 20 listened to the speakers but that was enough to garner front page coverage with a color photo in the local paper.
Barely a blip on the media radar but a U.S. Court of Appeals allowed two former security contractors to continue their law suit which holds Donald Rumsfeld responsible for their alleged torture.
Riots continued in London and elsewhere in England this week. 16,000 police officers were needed. It is a fight born of anger: the have-nots versus the haves. Those who think it cannot happen here should note that hopelessness, poverty, unemployment, continuing decline in the middle class, declining wages, austerity programs that hurt those who have the least are symptoms affecting this country as well.
President Obama went to Dover AFB Tuesday to participate in the solemn ritual of meeting the caskets of fallen heroes. He spent several hours meeting with the grieving families of those we lost. The price of war often goes unnoticed by the 99.5% of Americans who are unaffected by it.
After 200 years, the US House of Representatives ended the high school student messenger program. The internet, e-mail and phone text messages have replaced the "pages" who previously carried messages throughout the Capitol. Boehner and Pelosi both agreed that the $5 million annual cost in economic hard times cannot be justified. It is sad that 200 years of tradition ends--tradition that gave students a glimpse of life in the Capitol--because we can no longer afford it.
Despite the fact that the Wisconsin State Senate recall elections netted democrats two seats, the GOPTP declared victory Tuesday. Republicans said they won four seats. Four of the six "recalled" senators kept the seats they had already won and two lost their seats. No matter how you slice it--if you had six and lost two, you didn't win anything!
Rick Perry's Prayer Rally was supported by the latest reincarnation of evangelicals--the Apostolic Christians. Turns out it wasn't God who told Perry to run, it was the Apostolics who "chose him" to run because their goal is to take over Government, the media, entertainment industry (plus four other mountains as they call it) to speed up the Rapture. Talk about cults--these folks are scary in their hatred and their interpretation of the Bible.
RNC Chairman Reinse Priebus blamed President Obama for the GOPTP's unpopularity. There is a point where stupid, ridiculous and idiotic are the only words that describe a person like Priebus who does not accept that the GOPTP has again reduced itself to "dog food on the bottom shelf" because of their own incompetence and rigid ideology that is causing great harm to the country--Party First, Country Last.
Bob Simon provided the best political comment this week with his column about the Ames GOP Straw Poll: "organized bribery on a grand scale." He did say it was good fun though.
Texas Republican Michael Burgess wants to impeach President Obama. "It needs to happen, and I agree with you, it would tie things up." Nothing like an impeachment to keep Congress from fixing problems. Guess the GOPTP's four month, self-inflicted debt ceiling debacle didn't "tie things up" enough.
Mitt Romney faced tough crowds in polite Iowa Thursday. He said "corporations are people, my friend" and the crowd heckled and piled on. Turns out Iowans are not the hayseeds Romney thought, they didn't buy what he was selling.
Last night's GOP debate netted some odd things. The "good" Newt returned; Bachmann promoted "lightbulb" freedom; Rick Santorum educated the candidates about the art of compromise--apparently an alien concept to them. The most telling revelation was when all GOP candidates said if offered $10 in cuts to $1 in revenue increases, they would veto it. Need any more proof that these GOP candidates are wedded to Grover Nordquist--"submission is respect".
The Ames GOP Straw Poll is Saturday. Judging from the local editorial page, it can't come soon enough--already Iowans are tired of the steady ringing of the telephone: Hi, this is....please join me in Ames, vote for me and if not me, who will you support, do you need a ride to Ames? Woe is us, the best is yet to come!
Jody:
Outstanding again. You are now officially the Friday recap guru. I hope you are making copies of these as they are excellent and will be great to review come election time.
"Michele Bachmann was in the Pizza Ranch parking lot in Newton, IA, Friday. She bashed President Obama for not cancelling his 50th birthday Bar-B-Que.Her real problem is that she's jealous because President Obama is younger than she is."
oh, ho ho ho ho. Good one, Jody!
Jody, I look forward to your recap each week. And you never disappoint with your excellent analysis. Thanks!
Dont worry Navybouy, Im keeping a good record of everything you guys say! Well except for you.....because everything you post except the occasional badly worded attacks I cant get off 2 or 3 lib progressive web sites! At least Jody puts some actual work into her weekly blasts. I still cant get Amy to tell me if that custom condom store is still on the water front In Portland. Im sure she knows if its still there!
Here's the way it really was-
Following notice that S&P had actually followed through on their threat to downgrade our credit rating, Obama followed through on hightailing it out of town. Keeping true to form, his remarks from Camp David did not even touch on the downgrade.
Thirty heroes were killed last weekend. No statement from Obama- just a press release.
On Monday, following the "three day out" rule, Obama finally made his usual inane, inapt statement on the downgrade and market crash. He tacked on a throwaway line about the loss of life of military heroes, and went to two fundraisers.
When the pundits, (as usual), panned his speech, and the markets responded to his mellifluous tone by co tinning to crash, he called Bernanke in for a reaming. Then, he went to Michigan, where he whined and moaned to a crowd at a company that got almost three hundred million dollars in the hopes they would create one hundred fifty jobs.
Then, he went to two sparsely attended fundraisers. ( fifteen people at the Ritz Carlton for a reception that must have been held in a broom closet, no more than fifty at five tables in the basement at a private home).
Today, the "most transparent president in history" is meeting with business leaders in the Roosevelt room sans press- kind of makes you wonder what will be discussed that we are not supposed to hear about. Then, he meets with the Green Bay Packers.
With press.
If he keeps to the program, on Monday he will repeat the same inane, inapt statement about the credit downgrade, which will, again, get panned by pundits. Then, he will go on his Midwest bus tour, then, it's off to the Vineyard.
I did not think, in my lifetime, to ever live through a presidency actually worse than Carter's. Considering the numerous columns written by liberals in this last week moaning over having made the wrong choice four years ago, neither did a lot of liberals.
I'm thinking they see the truth- Obama has driven a stake through the heart of the Democratic party. He can't leave office soon enough.
Jolly, somewhere in there was a backhanded compliment so thank you. Navy puts a great deal of research into his posts every day; you might trying doing the same to refute his efforts. FYI, when democrats do funny or dumb things, they also get a spot on my recap. Check back, Dennis Kucinich made a couple appearances along with VP Biden caught snoozing during a presidential address, President Obama locked out of the Oval Office. I have also posted positive comments about republicans such as Tom Coburn, John McCain, Jon Huntsman, Mitt Romney. The facts are that currently republicans behave badly and are very good at making a mockery of politics; therefore, they will continue to receive the most jeers from this liberal.
As for your last line--disrespect for women is something conservative seem to have in abundance of these days. Unnecessary, dirty old man comments are out of style.
No Joe,
Jody did a much better job. You just spew hatred of Obama.
No Joe, life must be a miserable muddle of grasping for straws for you. President Obama spent considerable time "addressing" the country regarding the 30 heroes Monday; he also went to Dover AFB Tuesday to meet the caskets of the dead and meet for several hours in private with the families--guess you weren't paying attention. In 8 years, Bush went to Dover once; Cheney never went. As for the rest of your attempt, unsubstantiated drivel, FDO exists--factual deficit disorder.
Are you kidding Jody?
JOS trademark is trolling this site with his perverted 'dirty old man' comments...
Oh well... at least it keeps him away from the playground!
Jody - --disrespect for women is something conservative seem to have in abundance of these days.
Gee Jody, You mean stuff like this? Is Feisty's comment OK? I am pretty sure she's not a conservative.
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
If only someone would slap the sh!t out of the Wasilla Hillbilly - my world would retrun to it's axis
Jody, It wasnt a dirty old man comment! It used to be a great little store on the water front. And I dont debate with liberals, as my commanding officer used to say. We dont debate liberals, we fight so they can debate them selves. Im pretty confident in my world! I do not need to change anyone's mind or let them think they can change mine!
Hi Jody a pretty good wrap up. However I wonder what you mean by the following...
Riots continued in London and elsewhere in England this week. 16,000 police officers were needed. It is a fight born of anger: the have-nots versus the haves.
I don't truly believe the typical have vs. have nots idea explains everything here. While I understand every society has this condition, I doubt that is the sole reason for this shocking lawlessness. I don't know the percentages, but I would guess perhaps 10% of those people began with peaceful protests to the police shooting that guy. However I would guess that 90% of those people are thugs purposefully using a tragic event to loot, plunder and grab whatever they can. Those young people are just using it as an excuse to have some fun, bash some heads and smash some storefronts. It is born of anger but not how you seem to portray it. It seems it has a lot of racial tension involved as well. Maybe I'm wrong?
No Jo - You do know that the President spoke emotionally about the loss of the chopper and men. He also went to see the bodies arrive and speak to the families. Try to stop making Obama out as so callous. Speaking about the downgrade I guess it is a catch 22, if he speaks the right criticizes him but if he doesn't they ask where he is.
I can agree with you about the vacationing. I believe Obama should put forward a job plan now, have a D congressman introduce and then push its passage. His idea to let Congress do their own thing is not working. He needs to be more aggressive and not so detached with getting things done. At the least we can't wait for a month Congress to come back and start talking in that super committee.
By the way I told you Rick Perry would run. Did you watch the R debate and did you have any comments? No one addressed my debate comments below.
Yellowdog -- Tell me, Mark, do you also "guess" that these "thugs" are members of the "haves" or the "have nots"?
I'm going with the "have nots."
If not, then what do you think made those youthful "haves" so angry? Was it that Mummy and Daddy wouldn't let them use the Rolls Royce tonight, so they decided to kick down some store fronts and loot some tellys?
Or, are you saying that you think that's just how the "haves" have fun?
In short, yes, maybe you're wrong. God help us all if you're not.
Great post, Jody. As someone who grew up in a small town from a farming family I particularly liked your "spreading manure in a windstorm" comment. Pretty well describes the whirl of talking points being spread by the GOPTP.
Hi Jody,
Grand Slam Home Run.
Thanks
Jody -
Great recap as always - and if it's any consolation, my best friend lives in New Hampshire and has often said it's hard to even walk down the street without some candidate wanting to shake her hand. I think Bryan E and I may just have an advantage sometimes living here in the very late in the game primary Commonwealth of PA. Watch out for all those busses!
Jody-
Great wrap up!
All of the GOP candidates should have immediately withdrawn from the race the minute they raised their hand regarding vetoing the 10 to 1 cuts to taxes.
Those people are not serious about debt or deficit reduction. As McConnell notoriously intoned many months ago...their only goal is to"make Obama a one term President". That includes taking the country down to get at him!
How pathetic is that??
Anna Molly - I guess that a majority of those people are part of the have nots. Unemployment there among the youth and the minorities much like here is very high. Opportunities are limited. But I'm not sure what this does to further their plight. It will only place shame, fear and a lack of respect to themselves from the haves. As a minority I guess I believed in the "fight the man" moments, but those people have to move to something more positive like "show the man".
Is this how the have's have fun.... Well in many places, including growing up where I did some people amused themselves by bashing heads and mindless thuggery. What was more unexplainable was when the suburban boys tried to come to my barrio and act hard.
Back to the topic at hand, I would never support or condone mindless violence, looting and burning. I'm not saying you or anyone else does either, but merely wanted to say that those thugs are burning and destroying livelihoods. People are dying.
I know the power of the masses, I was involved in a mass protest march for immigration reform in downtown Dallas. Almost 300,000 to 400,000 showed up in all. It was peaceful and set off and organized after latino youth decided to just leave their school for the day to make a point about the need for immigration reform.
There is power in people but not when the people turn to violence, then it just turns into a mob.
What talk to the masses? I might have to actual converse with them. Ewwww! I mean really those people have no money to donate. I am a Republican we don't talk to the poor, we screw them.
jollyahole,
I'm sure they have plenty of place Detroit that sell that crap. Seeing as how your city leads the Midwest in Adult Entertainment. You are an a$$.
Nice put back Jody. I don't know why he thinks he's all that "jolly".
BTW Great recap as usual. I always enjoy them.
Mark ~ Why do people always like to assume moral superiority? If you knew me, you would know how much I abhor violence, no matter by whom. I can't even stand to kill an ant or a spider when I find them around the house. The point being, that you were trying to take issue with Jody's conclusion as to whether this was the "haves" or the "have-nots," and for the reasons I mentioned, it's much more likely the have-nots. Although I take your point, too, as I have both read and seen Kubrick's A CLOCKWORK ORANGE. If you haven't, it speaks to random and gratuitous violence of the kind you seem to have experienced at the hands of the suburbans.
The ultimate point, of course, is that while individuals are to blame for the choices they make, we can't make them change their choices until we try to understand why they make them. Just dismissing them as thugs will never address the underlying causes that make them act the way they do, no matter what those causes are.
Mindless thuggery is never really mindless. And as someone once said, "a mind is a terrible thing to waste."
Anna we are probably not that far apart on this issue, I meant no malice toward Jody.
Anna Molly - From my post 3.18 - I would never support or condone mindless violence, looting and burning. I'm not saying you or anyone else does either...
@AM It speaks to random and gratuitous violence of the kind you seem to have experienced at the hands of the suburbans.
Didn't experience violence at their hands, an assumption on your part counselor. As far as me bringing up suburban kids coming to my neighborhood, my point was simply that in life the rich, and bored often engage in these excursions.
As for the violence in London - I wouldn't blame it all on the have nots either I guess some of those involved are from the rich, posh neighborhoods. After all we are talking about the English, ever heard of English soccer fans? They are the rudest most obnoxious and hostile - okay I'm being sterotypical but they don't all sit at home and drink tea. Whether you are rich or poor you can be a thug.
Never seen A Clockwork Orange but think Anne Hathaway in "Havoc" or any number of films when rich, bored suburbanites want to see how the other side lives. Look at popular culture how many white adolescents walk around with their pants drooping and acting gangster.
Yellowdog. I appreciate your post. My weekly recap is not an in-depth, scientific analysis of any event. I could not begin to explain all the reasons behind the London riots in one small, general paragraph. However, from the coverage I have seen, the most common remark from the many reports was the despair of the have-nots finally boiling over into the streets. It started with the killing of a person but the factors I describe were the primary underlying cause expressed by reporters. My comment was meant to provoke thinking about the similarities we see here in this country. We again have a pattern identical to what happened before the Great Depression, the wealth of the Nation was concentrated in a small percentage of Americans: the haves vs the have-nots. Despair, hopelessness, unemployment, deprivation, poverty and hunger can result in irrational behavior and cause great damage. Britains should not be surprised nor should we, if and when the frustration takes to the streets in protest, riots, looting here. I do not condone the rioting or any aspect of it but we need to think about what causes it no matter where it occurs.
Reading comments telling President Obama he should cancel his vacation for ...... That's no solution. Congress has been dysfunctional since January 2011, his 10 day vacation isn't going to change that simple fact. There is not one thing everyone has listed as a reason why the vacation should be cancelled that President Obama cannot do while enjoying some much-needed downtime WITH HIS FAMILY; time to think away from the office, time to plan what can be done. Some of my best ideas came while enjoying a vacation. In my view, the last thing he should do is call Congress back in session or cancel his vacation. Congress, especially republicans, need to think about what it means to be a legislator, what it means to govern responsibly; they need to cool their heels, do some homework, and above all--get an earfull at the townhalls. Then get their backsides to work doing what we pay them to do--solve problems.
Jody, as always - BRILLIANT!
Jody my comment was perhaps a bit unfair to you and I didn't mean to seem harsh. Your recaps are very thought provoking and I was merely commenting on my take about that small paragraph.
Talking about hopelessness, poverty, frustruation and potential protests and riots etc. As you and Anna Molly speak about things getting bad in places like England; it reminded me of the movie - "V for Vendetta" A good flick.
Peace.
Jody-Good Job, Thank You.
Pretty pathetic, as i suspect that not a single one has thought past that talking point. Suppose they are successful, then what? Do they even know what they would do next? My guess is they haven't got a clue.
Jolly,
Really? Isn' t this getting a little personal for a person you've never met? Go sell it on Clifford Ave.
I appreciate very much what Jody brings to this board.
Nice job again Jody.
They don't have to think past defeating President Obama, Bryan. If they get that accomplished ALEC and the Kochtopus will tell them what to do next.
Ditto that, Greg, and thanks for saying it.
Anna:
:o)
Wonderfully capsulated week that was, Jody.
Using this logic, Harry Reid lost the Senate in 2010.
Get serious, Alan. I did NOT say the Wisconsin GOP is no longer the majority in the state senate. Nice try to deflect from the truth, though. The GOP L-O-S-T two seats in the recall--seats they thought were theirs for several more years. Their majority is now 17-16.
Just to recap for you Alan. the score in WI Democrats +2 Republicans -2, and the republicans stayed even on the other 4. The Republicans didn't win anything they held 2/3 of what they already had. So if your keeping score I'd say the Democrats came out ahead.
LMAO........ MO go to Vegas with all your hard earned money and use that same logic! Lets see who comes out ahead!
Go in with 14 come out with 16 sounds like a win to me.
So did the Senate Democrats declare victory in 2010 although they lost seats? I know I'm dense but I don't see the difference. Although the opposing party made gains they did not win the majority.
Still deflecting, Alan, or rather choosing to ignore the point. Repeat, I did NOT say the WI democrats won the majority. The WI GOP still has a majority but THEY WERE RECALLED by Wisconsin citizens and as a result, lost two of their majority. What did they win? They already had the majority and retained a majority of one. The US Senate retained the democratic majority, they did not win what they already had and that was the victory the democrats claimed--we kept the Senate. The US House WON the majority because they had been the minority. Moving on.....
Bottom line is a significant number of republican voters flipped, democrats took two seats in republican districts and the numbers tightened in all six districts. That momentum will build every day this Republican congress does nothing but name buildings, and every republican presidential candidate opposes raising taxes even in the face of a 10 to 1 cut to tax increase ratio.
Lets recap your Vegas analogy Jolyoldsoul1. You're saying if you put 4 quarters in the slot machine and break even you win, even if the next 2 quarters you put in you lose. Sounds like a winning strategy to me. Sarcasm. I'd take my strategy over yours to Vegas where I win 1/3 and break even the other 2/3 of the time, and you lose a 1/3 of the time and break even the other 2/3.
Get out spent 3:1 and still walk away with 4 wins seems like a good showing to me. And we're not done yet. I'm not holding my breath, mind you, but I will laugh my fool arse off if Tuesday brings 2 seats back to Team Elephant. Good chance for one but 2 would be so much fun.
The WI vote was rigged, it will come out eventually because someone will talk, unless they kill them first.
What you really mean Suzy is you out spent the Democrats 3:1, you held 4 seats you already had and lost two seats you once held. And you think that's a good showing. That's called flawed logic.
Actually it might only feel like 3:1, I'll give you that. A bit of research shows the breakdown as a pretty even split so Ill retract my 3:1. AS an excuse, I'll offer up that I live in the media market for 2 of the recall districts and it feels like the ad ratio is about 3:1 D to R. Sorry, sometimes I get caught up in the excitement. Interestingly, though, it's about a 5:1 difference between out of state money and money from the candidates.
As for a good showing, again, given the amount of money that poured in to try and flip all 6 seats, I'd say retaining 4 is good. Lets also not forget that there were attempts to get 2 additional republican senators recalled but they fell short in the signature collecting phase, so one could say we've held 6 of 8. The 2 that were lost weren't a huge shock- Kapanke was a republican in a district that's largely swung Democrat recently and Hopper lost by a similar margin to the one he won by in 2008 against the same challenger. And again, the fat lady hasn't finished singing yet. For all the chest pounding that's gone on by the left declaring the Republicans overstepped, that Wisconsin doesn't like the path they've put us on, etc, I'd say amassing 53% of the votes cast in all 6 races is pretty darn good. Perhaps not an all out victory, but a pretty good showing just the same.
Forrest - Do you really believe the 10 to 1 ratio? Do you think anyone actually does believe it? It's the democrats chiding and raising the stakes to see if the GOP will budge. Not a single person takes it seriously. Why? Because it ain't gonna happen. I kinda wish the GOP would take them up on it, just to prove the democrats were simply posturing. It would be interesting to see if the GOP, through public demand, show the democrats that they will say anything, or promise anything, just to get the GOP in a "gotcha" moment. If the GOP went for it... the dems would say... what? 10 to 1? Why we were just kidding... We can't afford a 10 to 1 reduction in spending... Where did you guys get such an idea... you sillies.
That question was posed at the republican debate, I beleive it came from Chris Walllice?
Great wrap up of a crazy week, Jody. You can't make this stuff up.
Sorry there wasn't room for Rick Santorum's "paper towel/napkin" moment.
Do I have to tell my light bulbs they are free? If they are free, why do I have to pay for them at the store?
Have a great weekend---hope your good weather continues.
Shoot, I knew I forgot something.
Rick Santorum gets the award for weirdest and lamest attempt to make a point. He compared gay marriage to paper towels versus napkins. Since he was in a coffee shop and trying to relate to those ordinary folks present, he grabbed a napkin and ran with it.....and that's the way it is, this week.
I guess it was go with the napkins, or maybe the old forks and spoons having sex talk. BTW that is where teaspoons and salad forks come from isn't it.
What I found most fascinating about the Santorum marriage comparison to a napkin versus a paper towel video is that I found out they sell tuxedos in the produce department in Iowa! How awesome is that?
A guy holding a produce knife and wanting to take my inseam measurment at the same time would scare the crap out of me!
funny comment at 5.2, Forrest!
Santorum continues to display the faulty logic that permeates the "traditional marriage" movement. It's actually a misapplication of product liability law. If I start a local eatery selling greasy hamburgers and cold, limp fries I'm in real trouble if I name it "Mack Donald's." McDonalds will come after me with good reason, for confusing their customers and diluting their brand. That's the principle that Conservatives are talking about when they claim that gay marriage somehow "devalues" marriage between a man and a woman.
I have been married to the same woman all my life, we were childhood playmates and somebody thought it would be funny if they married us in the playpen when were 2 1/2 years old! It does not matter who marries who on this planet, it would not make my marriage any better or any worse.
Nicely said, Forrest Grump.
Obama in 2012.
why?
Best candidate for the job.
Tom, what happened to your XXX posts?
Don't look now Cali Tom but the "only adult in the room" has done it again...
From Bloomberg :
"Confidence among U.S. consumers plunged in August to the lowest level since May 1980"
I'm not sure the country can afford all this "good news" for another four years!! D-mn 1980!!
I can see we are headed in the right direction... right off the cliff with grandma... whoo hoo!!!
This is change you can believe in?
What we need is a leader not some political stooge!!
Tell me what changed between July 11th and today that caused a drop in confidence? What could it be? Was Obama threatening to default America? No that wasn't it, but then who was?
Consumer confidence was fine before Boehner took center stage and held a bunch of walk-out sessions followed by last minute political votes while Rome was burning. As it stands only the President was able to save us from the Tea Party's hostage taking, but having domestic terrorists took down out credit rating and killed our self confidence.
That analysis by First Read was insightful, good job. Dont sound too shocked, though, that primary candidates criticize each other...what do you expect?
Also, I think the performance of Romney was underestimated. Experience helps him...even an experienced Governor and Ambassador to China like Hunstman showed a bit of rookie nerves....
Along with his great answers to the hecklers, Romney is on a roll.
Romney may be saying to Perry, "bring it on"
Yeah, his biggest probelm will be defending his heathcare law, his state being 47th in job creation when he was governor and his presentation to increase the state's rating with S & P to triple A by using tax increases that were passed to balance the budget.
Oh, and then there is this. Watch the videos, they're priceless:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58952.html
Corporations are people! - Willard Mitt Romney, August 11, 2011
Romney is done, it was questionable that he had a chance in the General election before, but after the "corporations are people too" blunder he's dead, may he rest in peace.
I hope to hear from the other side what their reaction was to the group of candidates that want to represent you in the 2012 election.
This was your night and I will hold my comments, because it truly is your time to speak....
I will check in later in the day.
thanks Bob for your comments.
I am a Democrat, so my opinion doesn't count, but I thought Herman Cain (as much as I saw him) came across as the sharpest one up there and most down to earth. I don't get why he isn't a frontrunner.
Amy, it's Cain's previous disrespect, his hateful and prejudiced comments that most Iowans and people (R or D) find difficult to overlook no matter how much sense he might make in a debate.
Jody,
That's what I get for living in Vacationland. We don't see much of these candidates (thank God!)
He has since apologized for his comments...
I'm sorry. An apology doesn't take away the bigotry and hatred. That lies within his heart of hearts.
I think two black men running for president would be the most interesting political race ever. If Republicans should get behind Cain, it would certainly dispel any notions that some republicans don't like Obama based on race. If Cain has a long form birth certificate, and can give a decent speech without a teleprompter he may walk away with it!
The GOP already did that when Obama ran for Senate in 2004. The GOP nominated (by convention) Alan Keyes who didn't even live in the state. Herman Cain doesn't have a chance. He will do ok in the Iowa caucus, as did Alan Keyes years earlier, but he won't ever be the GOP nominee, and if he was Obama would crush him.
Checking back in later in the day. It was refreshing to see Joanna and NJNO and others weigh in on the candidates last night.
But Joe from Albany and Brainb aren't saying...
He's in the GOP and he is an African American. That should explain it.
Good morning, everyone. No real news from the Heartland this morning, so instead, I offer some musings on corporations and unions.
I wonder if Mitt Romney knows what he said when he made the claim that corporations are persons because the money that a corporation makes passes through to people.
In other words, a corporation is a collective of people. A union.
A corporation is not "natural born." A corporation is a creature of legislation, created ironically so that individuals can avoid liability for debt. Corporations don't speak for themselves. The people who run them speak. People who already have a voice of their own. The speech may vary according to who happens to be running the corporation. A corporation can't vote. Who would vote for it? Someone who, as an individual, already has a vote.
Certainly, in that same way, unions are people, too. Unions speak for their members in the same way the corporations speak for their shareholders. And unions don't make money for themselves any more than corporations do. The money that they negotiate for their members goes to their members, just like corporations distribute their profits to shareholders. Unless they choose to hold them in cash, which many seem to be doing today, against the interests of their own shareholders.
We hear from the right constantly that their tax money should not go for union dues. We've been here before. This is just plain silly. Once public workers earn their money, it belongs to them. Taxpayers don't have the right to tell people what to buy with it, any more than I have the right to tell my local grocery store what to do with the money I pay for groceries. If they want to drink it up in rum and Coke, and not pay their bills, that's not my business.
Finally, there is a misconception about union money -- and in particular public union money -- going for political activities. There are rules that govern this -- every state probably has them. Union members must specifically authorize the use of their dues for political activity. Some states do this through PACs, and others through different means. Union members do not have to participate in their unions' political activities. Period.
In short, union members have more say in controlling what money goes for political purposes than corporate shareholders do.
Have a great day, everyone.
Great comments, Anna Molly. The decline of unions is one of the sad stories of the last half of the 20th century and is continuing. Not coincidentally, the middle class has declined during the same period.
Too bad many people can't make the link between cause and effect anymore. And who can blame them with shrill voices constantly in their ears tell them to look in the other direction.
That joke circulated a while back about the guy with the plate of cookies could not have been more true.
Thanks for the kind words, Steeler Fan. Have a great weekend.
Some interesting tid-bits about jobs.
First, something about "job holes," which relates to drawing distinctions between what actual job numbers look like, and what the future holds. This is scary, scary stuff. We don't seem to be creating jobs at nearly the pace we will need to do in order to fill these future holes, even in states like Texas.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/11/news/economy/jobs_population_growth/index.htm?iid=HP_Highlight
And then, an even scarier discussion about what kinds of jobs are being created nowadays. Low-income, temporary jobs, mostly without benefits.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/11/smallbusiness/hiring_cost_of_benefits/index.htm?iid=HP_Highlight
Without unions to protect employees and keep wages and benefits at higher levels, apparently it is NOT the benevolent intention of corporations to do it for them.
Why am I not surprised?
I am not surprised because I certainly saw this coming, too. An oldie, but still a goody, the "vision" of Wisconsin's largest business association (i.e., union), about what to expect from Governor Walker's budget:
http://host.madison.com/ct/business/biz_beat/article_98606c30-4511-11e0-9f5e-001cc4c03286.html
We would probably differ on the author's assessment here, only as to whether Haney is, indeed, a "moderate" guy. Moderate when compared to Attila the Hun, maybe. But that vision he projected was, of course, borne out by Wisconsin's much touted jobs creation numbers for June, which by the Governor's own admission, consisted largely of part-time, seasonal employment. Low income, temporary employment, without benefits.
O' Brave New World.
AM -- Could the Citizens United ruling, as a precedent, possibly backfire? I would think....... Personally, I feel it's an awful ruling.
Anna Molly, you are so sharp!
"Corporations are people!" Romney asserts, "where do you think the money goes, to people!"
Funny how overpaid CEO's are suddenly "real people!" but single moms, public workers, teachers, the elderly, the disabled, and the unemployed, are no longer "people," just liabilities on a spreadsheet, targets for spending cuts.
@ Don't carry -- if only that was true.
@ Amy -- Excellent observation, Amy. Just get government out of the way, destroy those evil unions, and leave it all to business, and business will take care of you. That is, until it's time to say that the only purpose for which a corporation exists is to make money for its shareholders. Indeed.
Molly, you need to read some case history on US corporate law. You may not think a corporation is a person and can reason that way. But under the law, corporation have many if not all of the same rights as people do. If you look at what the unions have done in many industries most industrial human resources experts would disagree with your points. Why do you think unions in US manufacturing are shrinking at such a rapid rate that Obama and his buddies at the NLRB have tried to rig all the new laws and regulations in their favor. The unions have virtually driven a large portion of the manufacturing base out of the midwest to the south or overseas. Instead of protecting these jobs, they has cost a great many of employees their jobs.
One more thing from me this morning:
Today's lesson in history that we condemned ourselves to repeat.
Welcome to 1937.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/business/financial-aftershocks-with-precedent-in-history.html?_r=1&hp
What was the lesson?
You don't starve your way out of a recession. To do so is to risk even further damage, as we learned in 1937.
Who didn't learn it?
I leave that one to you.
I have one question, have any of you ever lived in another country? Not vacation, I mean live in France or Spain perhaps any of the Scandinavian countries ! Because a lot of those gov. are where we are headed. They owe so much money to pay for all of the social services that everyone of them is on a spread sheet! The key take away word is responsibility! We need personal responsibility, people need to be who they are, not aspire to take away someone else's position in life! I knew people in South East Asia who were happy living people. They lived on about 40 cents a day and were happy smiling people 90% of the time!
AM, what a concise and thoughtful presentation of the issue. Thanks!
Unions became necessary when people forgot how to behave toward each other. Certainly. it would be nice if we did not have to "unite" to look out for our interests. Sadly, rather than getting better the situation continues to get worse.
Nonsense, Ray. Trade legislation that allowed it, and values that favor individual greed over collective prosperity did that.
How did this REALLY happen? Start with Ronald Reagan, and see where it goes. Since Reagan, unions have been in constant decline and wages are flat, while benefits have declined.
Corporations are not moving to Texas for the benefit of workers, and they would move somewhere else in a flash if they could get a better deal. Or do you really believe that the fact that Texas has the largest percentage of minimum wage workers is somehow an accident?
http://www.bls.gov/ro6/fax/minwage_tx.htm
Without strong unions to protect them, this is exactly what you get. But is it what you want?
Anna Molly:
Outstanding analysis. You are on a roll this week. Keep them coming I look for your input from the Heartland.
See you later at the DDI. Today I am bringing BBQ pulled pork slowly cooked over a real oak wood fire and a fresh crispy home made cole slaw from the garden.
Thanks again and see ya later.
JOS, I have lived in another country. And I have also travelled extensively.
The mistake a lot of people make is comparing other countries directly to the United States.
Your Scandinavian example, for instance. Yes, they pay out a lot, but look at what they get in return. Americans can only look at that and criticize because they were brought up to expect more personal freedom. But our personal freedom often comes with its own great cost.
Personal responsibility is only a part of it. With that, one also needs to have respect for others. From responsibility and respect comes shared purpose.
@ Fielden ~ Thank you. Yes, it would be nice if we didn't have to unite to protect our own interests, but human nature being what it is, and money being the fuel, as long as the money continues to concentrate at the top, and power consolidates with it, it will continue to get worse.
@ jollyoldsoul1 ~ I seldom agree with you, but at least you're open about your vision for America: We should all be happy to live on dirt because in Asia they're happy to live on dirt, and worker bees should be content to be who they are. The inconsistency between this and the usual line we hear from conservatives about how we should all envy the rich and aspire to be rich ourselves doesn't seem to faze you in the slightest.
And good for you.
I'm reminded of a line from THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, where Andrew Shepard says, "They don't drink the sand because they're thirsty; they drink the sand because they don't know the difference." And that's the way your world has to work because if people only knew the difference, they probably wouldn't be as happy as you say they are.
So we have to treat them like mushrooms -- i.e., keep them in the dark and feed them ... misinformation ... to make sure they don't.
Sorry, son. You'll never have a chance to be better than a minimum wage worker -- and be careful about that, too, because we won't even guarantee that the minimum wage will be there tomorrow -- so suck it up and smile.
AM -- Will go puke now and turn off my TV for the next 16 months....pray you are wrong, sorry. : )
@ Navy ~ Sounds delicious. I'll definitely stop by. Thank you also, for the kind words, and for all you do here. As you may have seen, I tried to put some numbers on the Wisconsin campaign spending issue, but they're still not as concrete as I would like them to be.
@ Fielden -- Once again, thank you. You are spot-on.
@ Don't carry. We'll all have to do more than pray to make sure that I am wrong. Don't think I don't want to be wrong.
Brilliantly stated AM. By the logic of Conservatives, Unions are people.
Corporations did not move manufacturing overseas because of unions, the Chinese make I-pads for $200 a month in wages. How about the hundreds of thousands of white collar, college degree, not represented by the union "company" jobs, why did they leave they were not unionized. How come when I call Tech support I always seem to wind up talking to a bright young lady in India.
Forrest Grump
Corporations did not move manufacturing overseas because of unions, the Chinese make I-pads for $200 a month in wages. How about the hundreds of thousands of white collar, college degree, not represented by the union "company" jobs, why did they leave they were not unionized. How come when I call Tech support I always seem to wind up talking to a bright young lady in India.
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Forrest the root cause is "greed", unregulated Capitalism is an evil thing when the people pulling the strings have no honor, patriotism, ethics, morals or integrity.
You're lucky. Emphasis on "bright." And not just the young ladies.
We get what we pay for and also what we put up with.
That is all that it is, max profit is all that matters. It used to be considered patriotic to have American companies manufacture in America, that is what made us strong and self sufficient against all enemies, that is what drove a prosperous middle class, provided bright futures for our kids as engineers, and designers and all the talent needed for production. We won WW2 with our manufacturing, the world has never seen such production before or since, but we had the manufacturing infrastructure to convert to war materials. If the whole world turned on us, or China decided they were going to come and get the money we owe them, we would go to war barefoot and naked because we don't make any clothes or shoes. I don't think we could uniform a sizable army much less equip them. I bet the people who fought WW2 never thought that Americans would wind up working as cheap non-union labor for German and Japanese car manufacturers right here in the mighty USA.
In 1980 I made $11.80 an hour as a full time union grocery clerk in the midwest for Kroger. The median wage in Texas is now $11.20 an hour. Was my union and Kroger 30 years ahead of their time or is Texas 30 years behind. You get that, I made what most people in Texas make today 30 years ago, it is pitiful, I got out of that industry real quick because I felt that was not enough money to raise a family back then.
Late reading this thread. Excellent post, Anna Molly, posts plural I should say. Enjoyed the other thoughtful adds to it as well.
It has been exceptionally clear that we the people must do something to end the calamity in Washington, D.C..
Borrowing an idea from President Obama:
We establish the National Economic & Infrastructure Bank
The bank would be similar to any other bank or corporation. They could sell shares and float bonds.
Allow a tax holiday on corporate foreign profits if and only if they deposit it in this bank
Use those funds for infrastructure projects; such as highway and port improvement, public transportation projects, school modernization, job skills training centers, mobility subsidies, etc..what ever it takes to get people working.
For you right-wing conservatives, this would mean less government spending; shifting it to the private sector.
For you left-wing liberals, this would act as an economic stimulus.
I realize that the President has always been speaking on how all Americans need more education...that holds more water for the up and coming generation of Americans. Most mature citizens associate going back to school as taking a step backwards; or it begins with their recollection of having a bad experience during their school years. However, if they could add job skills to their resumes, they could accept it and would be more willing to participate.
Because our national highway system would probably become a series of toll-roads, congress would need to repeal the federal fuel tax. This would hurt the low-income folks and therefore, I suggest lowering the fuel tax in order to pay for a subsidized express pass for these fellow citizens.
After that, the States should force the issue and call for a Constitutional Convention.
Amendments for the 21st century should include (my opinion):
1. 'Referendum' amendment. Citizens vote on legislation; not congress
2. Women's access to reproductive healthcare service (end Roe v Wade)
3. Equal treatment of unconventional civil unions (same sex marriage)
4. A vote, by the people, to use military forces outside our national borders.
5. Term limits on Supreme Court Justices
The 'Founding Fathers' of the Constitution never allowed a "CHECK" to be placed on Congress or the Supreme Court. Now is the time for that opportunity.
Using Internet technologies (secure network), the referendum amendment would eliminate extreme partisan ideologues and tyranny by a minority, as well as, special interest influence. Legislators will still write legislation but will not vote on it or add excessive spending by way of special projects (ear marks).
At no other time in our history did we have the technology we have now, and it's time for it to have a positive impact on how we are governed.
This is REAL democracy!!
Finally, we need to think 'Hemispheric' and allow business profits to flow freely (without being subject to abnormal taxes) from the northern tips of Canada and Alaska to the southern tips of Argentina and Chile. We are constrained and need to expand our marketplace. This would create a boom for young entrepreneurs. This is where foreign policy should be centered.
We the People ARE the government
Democracy and Equality
Are you kidding, learn the constitution. NO check on the congress or supreme court. Let's try to presidential veto for a check of congress. It take a 2/3 vote to overrule a presidential veto which is very rare and almost impossible. The check on the Supreme Court is new legislation and if felt strongly enough, the Constitutional amendment. There are checks on all levels of government. Finally the ultimate check is the ballot box. If you don't like what is going on, vote them out as we did is the fall of 2010. But just because the rest of the people don't see things your way does not mean our basic way of gover
Ray - Explain to me again how Supreme Court Justices given lifetime appoints is democratic?
A Referendum Amendment would insure that all legislation is 'clean'. By allowing legislators to write the bills, but not vote on it, insures that if approved by the people...it really is what the people want; not that some special interest is getting something amended in an otherwise clean piece of legislation in return for a campaign donation.
Explain to me again how any member in Congress should be "retiring" from politics. Serving our country is a responsibility of all citizens; rich or poor. It shouldn't be seen a career.
The Constitution in its original script is not my idea of democracy.
Using the amendment process, our forefathers fought hard to insure democracy became a larger part of our government. The job is not complete. I am only suggesting that we the people need to complete the journey towards a truly democratic government.
Believe it or not, I actually did watch portions of last night's debate. My takeaways...
- Pawlenty and Bachmann DO NOT LIKE each other. Keep this in mind in 2014 when the GOP is looking for an opponent for the Senate seat currently occupied by Al Franken.
- The head-shaker of the night was Newt Gingrich. Apparently he, like Bachmann, also wants to play "Joe McCarthy, The Home Game" and investigate who is really "for us" and who is really "against us".
- Kudos to Bachmann for playing the GOP's Greatest Hits last night. Look, she was on message but when a question about gay marriage is used as an opportunity to drop the "I Won't Appoint Activist Judges" line you're reaching.
- Two words..."Teflon Mitt".
- Cain and Santorum...did either of you really need to show up for this?
With the "gotcha" comment, couldn't tell if Gov. Palin showed up in drag dressed as Spkr. Gingrich.
Sen. Santorum scares the living hell out of me with his morality...can't legislate morality Senator.
Liked Cain...but the modern day GOP wouldn't nominate him and can we really afford another 4 years of inexperience in the White House...we already have 2 1/2.
Ron Paul...enjoyed his smackdown of Sen Santorum...sit down son!
Gov. Pawlenty actually makes Vice President Gore look animated and engaging.
Gov. Romney has always appeared to "Ken" doll for me...there is such a thing as too polished.
At this juncture I don't really see anyone of the current field winning the general election in 2012 so the President's supporters on this board my be able to safely divert some of their anticipated campaign contributions to other personal discretionary spending.
jinsd
May I interest you in voting Democratic in 2012? You can't call President Obama inexperienced now.
I did something that I promised myself 11 years ago that I would never do again. I watched Fox News. The eight people in the debate still look like losers to me. I could not believe that all eight said they would not raise taxes even with a 10 to 1 cut. The Republican/Tea Party has shown over and over again that they put the wealthy ahead of the working people and the poor. I feel we have these people to thank for the downgrade. BTW Bachmann looked exactly like her photo on Newsweek magazine.
Much like every Democrat who says they won't cut entitlements. Oooops, let's not allow the whole truth be known.
Seattle Sue,
The Republican/Tea Party has shown over and over again that they put the wealthy ahead of the working people and the poor... and ahead of the middle class, the upper middle class, professionals, parents who hope to send their kids' to college, people hoping to work for themselves, people needing affordable health insurance, the elderly, and anyone not an evangelical Christian.
The GOP know the only chance they have of winning anything in 2012 is with all that corporate money citizens united gave them. With out it their toast, so they have to cater to the organizations that give them undisclosed donations. Plain and simple that's their base.
Amy, they ARE most of those people, at least the ones Ive met! And Did I mention yesterday that there were protesters set up all over SE Michigan US postal offices yesterday! I stopped to see what it was about to (because one of the people was a gorgeous black woman) and realized it was a teaparty protest and had a huge sign Dump Obama on both sides of the table. Mostly younger people of mixed race.
Dan G. There's a difference between "fixing" social security and medicare and cutting it or privatizing it. Incidentally, they are not entitlements--they are government run 401Ks and health insurance banks into which we all contribute money from the time we get our first jobs and when we retire, we are entitled to the benefits earned. Conservatives over the past 30 years have successfully turned the word "entitlements" to suggest a different meaning, their meaning as often expressed on FR is "welfare".
Bottom line. Mr grover still has complete control over the gop, birthers, & teapot party. Mr grover still has policies to make the rich richer, the poor poorer and results in making this country weaker & where only the petro industry of the ussr, the world's largest, benefits.
Once again, Jon Stewart and The Daily Show come through.
Apparently, FOX News anchor Megyn Kelly is in favor of maternity leave and the Family Medical Leave Act but only when it's HER maternity leave and HER FMLA.
So, the "Me Firsters" strike again...if it benefits you it's an "entitlement" but if it benefits me it's a sign of a civilized society. Nope...no hypocrisy there!
Just goes to show "Fair and Balanced" does not mean everyone agrees with one viewpoint as on MSNBC. But no one would know that because looking at the ratings, no one is watching MSNBC besides the very far left. But sorry, Fox News had maternity leave before the FMLA as they pointed out but Stewart conveniently left out. Their point is this is something between employees and management not a "nanny" state.
So, basically, your argument boils down to exactly what I said...
"I'm in favor of it for me but not for you."
You are missing the point by a mile. The point is this is something that is between the company and the employee. We don't need the government watching over and regulating every aspect of our lives. If you don't like your company's policy, you have the "freedom" to go to any employer "you" like better. What people don't realize is that everyone of these regulations and laws from the government comes costs and reporting which added costs to the company. We wonder why companies are not hiring and to overseas. To get away from all the BS we have here. It is simply far easier to manufacture think in other countries even if pay rates are relatively the same. The cost of operating in those places is far, far less. Let's make it easier to do business in the US not harder.
You got it Ray! Why should all the Chinese children have the good jobs applying lead paint on cheap toys sold in the US, those were damn good jobs that regulations cost us.
If MSNBC was not "fair and balanced", why then do I often read liberals comments complaining about what the conservatives have said while on MSNBC. While it is not perfect, when MSNBC makes a mistake, it is corrected ON AIR. FOX News on the other hand rarely deals in facts to begin with.
Question: Why are our airwaves filled with folks talking every day, but none of them saying anything new?
We have an entire industry of political "analysts" who basically regurgitate debunked talking points and profer non-reality based solutions. American lacks seriousness and depth at a time when both are required.
These are the solutions being repeated ad nauseum: call Congress back (to do what?), the President should "lead" (lead who to where), pass the Debt Commission recommendations (with what Congress?), cut corporate taxes (over 70% of corporations are paying ZERO right now), create jobs (how? by doing the same crap that already didn't work under President Bush? Seriously?) and cut the deficit (by extending unpaid for tax cuts?).
Albert Einstein said it best:
Yes, it is the nasty little part of the constitution called the First Amendment and that "Freedom of Speech" article. I know the left has a lot of problem with it especially when it comes to Fox News. It would make life so much easier if only the far left viewpoint were allowed to be broadcast. But the Supreme Court take a dim view of anyone or law tampering with this right. Darn it, it gets in the way.
You say 70% of corporations are paying nothing. Ah, your basis for this statement is? Besides of course just making it up!! But the Wall Street Journal disagrees with your point on the Bush Tax cuts and since we did go from over 7% unemployment in 2002 to 4.2% unemployment in 2006. I will just take it you have no idea what you are talking about. But read it for yourself:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704738404575347302831199046.html
Dearest Ray:
WTF are you talking about? :oP
Anywho, since you asked:
Speaking of the Wall Street Journal and President Bush's jobs record, how about this?
Did you read your own article? It said 57% of US corporations studied paid no income tax in one year of 7 years. We can conclude they paid income tax in the other year. This amount to from between 8% and 15% in any one year assuming some had more than one year. This is not unreasonable that companies had one in seven years which a company took a loss. Just as when a person is unemployed, when a company losses money they pay no income tax. As for your blog article in the WSJ which was an alternative viewpoint, it was printed in early in 2009. Notice what I posted came from late 2010 and was based on full analysis of the Bush tax cuts almost 18 months after he left office. Not right after Bush left office.
Ray:
You asked a question and I answered it. Take your ranting and raving to someone who cares, mmmkay?
Corporate people are gaming the system and sucking this country dry, whether you and Mitt Romney believe it or not.
You have a great weekend.
Amen Nashville fan, amen.
Hey Ray take a shot at convincing me why the subsidies for oil companies need to be preserved at all costs. Do we need to encourage the use of oil? are these companies struggling to make a profit in an emerging market?, come on lay a little market based corporate hocus pocus on me.
Interesting, Nash, you seem to have struck a nerve. You said;
With that simple statement, naming no names, obviously someone decided that the only appropriate response was "Conservatives resemble that remark!"
Now, your statement could as easily be aimed at the Al Sharptons as the Sean Hannitys, the Dennis Kuciniches as the John Kyls, but clearly he believes Conservative Republicans to be especially vulnerable on this point.
Bottom line you can't believe a word any of them says ! By the show of raised hands they proved on record they want to destroy the USA !
a couple of thoughts: first, fitting don't you think the texan announcing his candidacy for the party of lincoln and who has flirted with secession, will announce in the state that fired the first shot in the civil war at ft. sumter?
second, God must have a memory problem, didn't he already call michelle bachmann?
and finally, "The president meets with business leaders at the White House to discuss the economy," are these the same business leaders who are not creating jobs because there is no demand; and there is no demand because consumers do not have jobs? catch 22 comes around again.
Gov. Romney said a few things that surprised me:
1) he said he wouldn't eat Barack Obama's "dog food" -- it would take a while to unpack this statement, but the gist of it seems to be that the legislation to raise the debt ceiling (written by Congress, as per the Constitution) is somehow unpalatable and hence "dog food." It's a fancy way of avoiding the issue: What would you have done? Gov. Romney would have allowed the US to default if presented with the legislation. This is our economic hero speaking -- he would have defaulted rather than sign an "unpalatable" bit of legislation. Ergo if he signed legislation as Gov. of Massachusetts, he found it palatable enough....
2) he said he wanted educated immigrants -- something along the lines of "stapling a green card to their diploma." Why? Because they will create business. Ergo, American graduates are not pro-business enough and we need more educated immigrants. On the other hand, the large demand for immigrants is as labor -- unspecialized workers: what would Gov. Romney do for them? In particular, he once had those exact workers doing the landscaping on his home in MA...has he ever asked the contractor who brought them along why he/she had to hire undocumented people? The answer is: they are willing to do the work at the price offered.
yes, I agree. Comparing the Obama policies to dog food is a slight against dog food manufacturers across this country. The results of the Obama agenda have been more like what comes out of the other end of the canine.
Great job of trying to deduce something Romney never said in a convoluted way.
Yes, Ray W., great job of deducing something Romney said in not only a convoluted by also insulting way.
Nice post, kate!
If even a single American corporation doesn't meet the gold standard of 99.999% American owned than Romney must personally mow every Americans lawn.
Typical Romney who wants American taxpayers to take cuts so that Chinese who have been increasing their purchases of American corporations receive tax cuts.
Any corporation that isn't 99.999% owned by Americans should have every tax loop hole taken away.
Since Romney claims corporations are people, why is it that they don't have elections like America?
One vote for every person regardless of how wealthy they are? Does Romney support rules for corporations like Walker's rules for unions? Make corporations have to hold elections every year (one vote per owner) and if someone doesn't vote, then the CEO and board have to be replaced immediately. Also, one vote for every owner to decide if the corporation is allowed to lobby (again, if someone doesn't vote it's an automatic no)
That was Pawlenty talking about mowing yards and he was not referring to the Gold Standard. Pawlenty was talking about find an Obama policy on saving Social Security and Medicare. His point still stands. Where is the Obama program for saving the programs which the trustees say is headed for bankruptcy? The Supreme Court in the past has ruled that corporations have the same legal rights as citizens such as search and seizure, relocation, jury trial and others. So legally what Romney said is correct.
"The Supreme Court in the past has ruled that corporations have the same legal rights as citizens such as search and seizure, relocation, jury trial and others. So legally what Romney said is correct."
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That statement also proves something else, the supreme court has been purchased by corporate America. And Ray the President does not "write" policy, that's the job of the Congress.
w bush Your behind the curve. The presidency and the Congress have been bought and paid for also by corporations, unions and foreign investors and anyone else with the right amount of compensation. And I don't mean just this Congress and Presidency.
Honestly, these contributors- were they watching the same debate. Again, Ron Paul answers the questions with thoughtfulness and has used history as his guide- and yet he gets no credit from these yeahoos. The fact of the matter is the only person up on that stage that has the country's best interest in mind is Ron Paul. Apparently, when you don't respond in talking points or in circles like the rest of them that is viewed as a negative. Utterly pathetic review. They don't get it and refuse to see it. People want this country involved in expensive wars and policing the world. It is quick becomming our downfall.
I thought Ron Paul was very persuasive, but, then, I'm a Democrat, so my opinion doesn't count.
You haven't learned, the tea people GOP don't want anyone who can think for themselves, all they want for a candidate is someone who can follow tea people GOP instructions and talking points.
Of course, Democrats think some of Ron Paul's thinking is great. He thinks Arab terrorists are not a problem and he would abandon Israel. Isn't this rate out of the Democratic playbook.
Ignorance is Bliss USA
I like Ron Paul's stance on the wars. The rest of it is utter bullsh!t. I have never lived in the late 19th century or the early 20th and don't intend to experience that lifestyle.
Maybe you like working long hours with benefits, your children exploited, no clean air or food safety or segregation. I don't.
"Ray W.
Of course, Democrats think some of Ron Paul's thinking is great. He thinks Arab terrorists are not a problem and he would abandon Israel. Isn't this rate out of the Democratic playbook."
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Where is it written Israel's defense is the U.S.A.'s responsibility, and a lot of people think if we would quit meddling in the middle easts $hit they probably would have no reason to kill us any longer.
Ray....may I assume that, as is the case with most conservatives, you have a certain amount of faith in Christianity and the Bible? If I may, then why would you, or any other Christian for that matter, want to go against the "end times prophecies" mentioned in Revelations and other Bible books? As is the most popular stance of Bible scholars, the "powers that be" mentioned in the final wars against Israel do NOT include another super-power who is allied with Israel. Basically, it'll be "Israel against the world". It has already been foretold that Israel will stand alone in her fight against the anti-christ and his "new world order" and will be victorious....and the U.S. will not have any significant bearing on this, one way or the other.
I would think you'd be all for "allowing the prophecies to become reality".
I know that the authors of this article and MSNBC are liberal in nature, but this isn't even credible reporting. When it is written in the article that: What’s more, the highlights of the debate were about them attacking each other than criticizing the president........... I have to ask myself and other's "what were they watching?" Throughout the entire debate each and every one of the candidates attacked just about every aspect of the way the president has failed to lead this country.
I believe that Santorum and Pawlenty each looked better than I thought they would. Bachmann is a joke in my opinion looking stiff, sounding hesitant, and generally appearing to be completely out of her eliment.
Of all, I liked Cain. He handled himself well and although the press gave more air time to the other's, he showed me he has a lot to offer this country. I'd like to see more of him and I hope that the republicans begin to provide more support his way to bolster a person who could be a major factor in the coming years.
Well at least we know where you stand inthemiddle12. All you want is someone that will attack the President. That's a real campaign (sarcasm).
You may profess to know where I stand, but you obviously don't Mo. You, like far to many in this country want to twist/spin things people say to make a point. I didn't praise anyone for attacking the president. My remark is that the authors of this article wrote this with a very liberal, one sided opinion to make it appear that the republican debate focused more on the candidates arguing with one another instead of addressing the failures of the president.
In the article they said: What’s more, the highlights of the debate were about them attacking each other than criticizing the president.Those were their words, not mine. Try to remove your head from the donkeys backside long enough to see the true nature of things.
Your quote inthemiddle12 not mine or the authors of the article. Try to remove your head from the tea peoples backside, or just read what you post.
I really have to wonder why Republicans dismiss Ron Paul, he was the only one that seemed to be honestly interested in the well being of the country.
 I just want to hear one of them explain why they are so adamant about protecting the income of the rich. The top families in the US earn $3 million PER WEEK and the Bush tax cuts gave them a $350,000 weekly increase and now they have a net $2.2 million to live on. I know it must be tough since they are busy creating jobs with that extra $350,000 but I need one of them to try to tell us how this is necessary. We had a country going in the right direction economically in 2000 and within 8 short years, we went in the wrong direction all directed by the same folks who now tell us they have seen the light. The tax rates for middle class are higher than they were in 2000 but not for the rich, they have the lowest rates in the last 50 years and I guess they just got what they paid for with their campaign contributions. Â
John, I think the problem is that MOST families don't earn anything close to $3M a year, let alone a week, but those who worked hard enough to earn $4807.69 per week are being lumped into the same category as the $3M per week crowd. I work for people in this category and I can say without a doubt, they work their arses off for it and take on some pretty substantial risk personally so that I can collect a paycheck. The only way they get to that payroll level is if we happen to have a good year and leave enough in the bank to issue bonuses. They put a lot of effort into keeping 18 others in a comfortable income bracket. And when you start confiscating more from them in the form of taxes, they get a lot less generous with us in terms of salary and benefits. Yes, they live comfortably, but not ostentatiously and they are the ones driving consumer demand right now.
And while your heart may still not bleed for the $4807 crowd, the question I always come back to is why are you entitled to what they earn? If the government concerned itself with only those tasks truly charged to them by the constitution, maybe you could make an argument for this, but as far as I'm concerned they have over reached their authority and have not proven themselves good stewards of ANY of our tax dollars. Giving them more has never improved the situation, either. Congress doesn't look at increased revenue as a means to pay down debt, they look at it as a means to increase spending. So yes, I'd rather the people who can actually drive the economy be left with as much of the money they earn as possible. I don't begrudge them their success, either. In fact I think it's a darn good motivator.
Giving them more has never improved the situation is a blatant lie.
When Clinton raised taxes several times the country was turning around, unemployment was low. The last year for Clinton was the first time in I don't know how many years the debt ceiling did not need to be raised. They were predicting that in 10 years with the current tax rate and we would have had our debt paid off.
Our country started to go downhill when bush thought it was more important to borrow money to give tax cuts than worry about the health of our country. Even after starting two wars, bush still felt that tax cuts were more important than keeping America healthy.
Go peddle your, the rich are more important than America to someone who hates America as much as you do.
So, Americans First, what exactly gives you exclusive rights to loving our country? Because it IS OUR country. I live here to and I live here not just because I was born here and my family is here but because I CHOOSE to live here. I've been other places and they're nice to visit but they aren't home. Just because you and I don't see eye to eye on the course does not give you any more "Good American" points than anyone else. Get over yourself. Try practicing a little of that loving tolerance your team espouses as their sole property you might understand that, just because we see different paths, we still want the same outcome.
For what it's worth, I agree with you. Bush's spending habits were atrocious. But instead of Obama putting on the breaks, he's floored the accelerator. I'm pretty equal opportunity here- if one's spending was bad, the other's can't possibly be good. You can delude yourself into thinking that increasing taxes would have kept up with this spending but I think it's just that, a delusion. Contrary to popular liberal lore, Clinton didn't balance the budget with his higher tax rates either. The debt ceiling may not have increased but that doesn't mean there was no borrowing. It is no one individual President's fault and even if it was, blame doesn't really matter anymore, it's doing something to fix it going forward. Lets have a rational discussion about it rather than continuing the games for political points and maybe we can get there.
I see Disabled Navy Veteran and other libs keep repeating the same ignorant lines about Romney's comment on corporations being people.
Aside from Romney's correct statement that the money in corporations ultimately goes to people, here's what evidently most leftists do not understand.
90% of the corporations in the US are S Corporations that are almost always a single individual-Thus in the US since the late 20th century, corporations indeed ARE PEOPLE. As the CEO of an S Corporation, I'm proud that my businesses utilize the tax laws afforded to large corporations giving me equal opportunity in the market place and to keep more profits for my family. This is in spite of the Democrats marxist ideology that wants to take everything I earn and engage in marxist redistribution of wealth
Here is a little something on the S Corps-- It was posted by a Senior Revenue Agent.
The loop hole (tax avoidance) kicks in when the S Corp is owned by an ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Plan). If the ESOP is the sole owner of the S Corp, all income flows to the ESOP which is exempt from taxation as a qualified retirement plan (IRC 401(a). Exempt entities such as retirement plans and other exempt organizations are supposed to own and operate businesses; if they do, the income is "UBI" (Unrelated Business Income) and the entity (ESOP) has a liability for UBIT (Unrelated Business Income Tax). The Tax Reform Act of 1997 eliminated the UBI and UBIT problem for S Corps owned by ESOP's ONLY. The code section born from the TRA of '97 is IRC 512(e)(3). The effective date of the TRA '97 was 1/1/1998; many of these setups were born that day, some new and others where the company went private (bought back publicly held shares) or bought the shares from the owners and amended an existing ESOP to take advantage of this new IRC section.
The end result is a corporation owned by a retirement plan and neither entity paying any income taxes. Some large multi-national corporations are doing this and practice or setup is growing like a weed. Your congress authored this mess and kept expanding on it. Now they want to enact the possibility for an IRC 1042 tax free sale of the owners' shares t the ESOP. Why? It's simple -- the sale of the shares is not income to the owner if they replace the shares with "like kind" or "similar shares" within 36 months. Several things happen at the conclusion of setting this up. Corporation pays no tax --owner has no reportable income from sale of his shares to the ESOP and therefore no income tax hit here either and in some cases, if done from publicly held corporation (converted to privately held with fewer than 100 owners or just the 1, the ESOP) no more reporting to the SEC either. All other taxes still apply, such as payroll (withholding of federal, state, local, SS and Medicare). Interesting indeed!
yeah, Larry, and I'm a cowboy.
Amy B-no you're just a typical Democrat marxist
Let me ask you a question Larry. Do you get to vote twice when you go to the voting booth? Once for you and once for your S corporation. Corporations don't get a vote, the people who work for the corp. do, so explain to all of us how corporations are people but don't get to vote.
Larry
you say "90% of US Corps are "S" Corps - and most of those are "single owners"....
Since there are approx 60% S Corps....I assume the rest of your post is full of bs as well!
Very well put Mr. Robinson. If the democrat supporters here had their way, we would be a "classless" society. They, as a whole, seem to feel that everyone should have equal wealth. Notice that none of them are talking about the lower class? All they focus on is the upper class. They sound like a bunch of spoiled 5 year olds demanding that no one has more than them. For those who continue to complain about the wealthiest having to many breaks, and harbouring all the wealth, how about the middle class giving more of what they earn to the poor in this country. Not fair? Why should I? Well now you are seeing what the wealthiest are probably saying.
This is America. This is not a socialist, communist or Marxist society no matter how much many of you supporting the democrats wants it to be. If you want to have more money, do something to earn it. Quit blaming the republicans for what this country is founded on; democracy. If you don't like capitalism, free enterprise and democracy, find a country that offers more of what you want instead of trying to change this country to your ideals. This country has a free enterprise system. We are capitalists and we are supposed to be in a democracy. People can rise above others through their own determination. Stop trying to insist that the government and this nation change and fall to your level. As JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
Larry, you're missing the point.
But as the sole owner of a business, a corporation, what else would we expect?
Thousands of companies with multi-billion dollar revenues have been registered as "S Corporations," small businesses for tax purposes. Among them were the biggest companies in the world and the richest people in this country and include Enterprise Products Partners, L.P., a pipeline company with 2009 revenues of $25 billion; Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co., a Wall Street firm with $445 million in revenue in 2009; Price Waterhouse Coopers, an accounting firm with $26 billion in revenue in 2009; Koch Industries, a conglomerate of partnerships with 70,000 employees; The Hillman Company, an investment founded by billionaire philanthropist/industrialist Henry Hillman; Venn Strategies, Inc. a multi- million dollar company; Ferrellgas, a propane and propane accessories business with $2 billion in revenues in 2009 and 1 million customers; CoorsTek, a ceramics manufacturer founded by Adolph Coors, with 2009 revenue of $549 million; Dead River Co. with $500 million in revenue and 1,200 employees; McIlhenney Co., the Tabasco maker with $250 million in revenue in 2007.
Rather than paying corporate taxes, these firms and thousands of others operate as S Corporations, sole proprietorships or partnerships, including limited liability companies that put LLC instead of Inc. at the end of their names. All are considered pass-through structures, in which company profits are passed directly to individual owners, who then pay taxes. Traditional corporations pay taxes on profits and pass along dividends to individuals, who pay taxes on the dividends. The rules for classification as a small business is not the income that’s small, it’s not the number of employees that’s small, it’s just the total number of owners that’s small. In the case of S corporations, the total number of owners can be 100.
ITM, this is America indeed. A place where "all men are created equal, with certain unalienable rights, (including) life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." (from the Declaration of Independence)
Are you saying Jefferson was a marxist?
Jefferson goes on to say "whenever government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new government." Which puts your comment to "find a country that offers more of what you want instead of trying to change this country to your ideals" into perspective.
Correction to my above post: Was originally posted by a Senior Revenue Agent, I just copied it.
So to break this down to a few words...Larry is a bad bad man, he owns a business and has money!
The Borg can see that and he must be assimilated!
Larry, I applaud you and your business.
However, I respectfully disagree with some of your philosophy.
President Obama's wants to lower the tax rate slightly but eliminate tax loop holes. Unless you are using loop holes to the extreme, the plan actually benefits you and your corporation.
For individuals, the President's debt committee stated that if the US eliminated tax loop holes, the individual tax rate could be reduced to three tiers...10%, 16%, and 22%. Additionally, it would save over one hundred million Americans from needing to purchase tax software or hire people to do their taxes.
Sadly, I know plenty of businesses that always report no profit, but their owners are driving around in brand new BMWs, towing brand new boats, etc. Additionally, they run businesses as individuals because they know if they hire anyone, there is a good chance that someone would find out they have falsified their earnings. Some are very, very good friends, but it's time for the gravy train to stop. I'm tired of paying for a $40K renovation for a business that has reported no profits for 10 years. If they truly had no profit over the past 10 years, they would not be able to afford any of the toys or renovation.
Again, unless you are using tax loop holes to the extreme, you should appreciate President Obama's debt committee recommendation to end the loop holes and lower the tax rate. Unfortunately, the GOP/TP has drawn a line in the sand and said if even one business or individual sees an increase in the taxes they pay that they will not vote for it.
That means the GOP/TP stands up for businesses that abuse the system and lie about there profits, but the owner is buying a new BMW every 2 years. Again, being very good friends with some of them, I know they aren't making the money in the market, but instead are ripping off American taxpayers. It's time to end these ridiculous loop holes that cost Americans over $1 trillion a year. It's time to simplify the system so that Americans and American businesses can save billions each year by not hiring tax advisers.
Jolly, that is not my position. We need more businesses but we need tax reform immediately. Albeit legal, these are loopholes. Yes, I am pro-growth, just want all to contribute something. Good for Larry for owning a business but shame on the legislators who write this crap. I would say "...they not know what they do...." But that would be a lie.
Don't carry it all. Just out of curiosity does senior revenue agent have a name.
Richard -- Don't believe it? Call the IRS. : )
inthemiddle2 Proclaims: "This is America. This is not a socialist, communist or Marxist society no matter how much many of you supporting the democrats wants it to be."
===================================================================
And just what the hell is this country inthemiddle2? The United States of America currently has a governing system that is controlled by the connected wealthy and corporations, what type of government is that inthemiddle2? It makes some of the alternatives you listed look pretty damn attractive.
Don't carry it all. Now why would I even want to call the IRS. My taxes are paid in full. I merely asked if he had a name, has nothing to do with belief.
I'm still waiting for the proof that Democrats want the US to be "socialist, communist, or marxist".
Just one more lie from the Locoweed tea drinkers.
As a Liberal and frequent Fox News Basher - I would like to give kudos to Fox and the panel of questioners for really "getting it on"....they took it to the candidates!
I enjoyed the format which allowed "back and forth sparing" - I also enjoyed that the audience was not "silenced"....I enjoyed their responses whether "pro or con" to not only the answers - but to some of the questions as well....
Whether one is right, left or center....this format worked! I actually heard where the candidates stood...I didn't need to agree with them....but it was nice to hear more then just campaign rhetoric.
Good job Fox and panel of questioners....I hope this sets the standard for what we can get from other "debate formats" in the future....
it was a good format, I agree, b dune. Look! We're being Minnesota Nice!
I agree the people asking the questions were good, as were the questions for the most part, I was pleasantly surprised.
I watched the last half or so of the debate, couldn't stand to keep watching the Cowboys winning their preseason game.
Of the hour I watched the GOP discussed pressing issues like abortion, gay marriage, flip flopping quotes by the candidates and loyalty oaths for Muslims. Seriously during the largest recession since the Depression I heard no ideas on creating jobs or helping the economy. When it wasn't the battle between themselves of who would have and who didn't vote to raise the debt ceiling, there was the unanimous show of hands - "I wouldn't accept 10 to 1 cuts vs. increased revenues".
All of their economic policies and adamant refusal to try to compromise is frightening. I thought some of them were in a trance with the "cut, cap and balance" mantra. I didn't see them answering the economic questions either. When asked what they would do on any issue first they would point out that Obama is totally inept and did everything wrong. Then instead of answering they would say I know how to grow the economy and make us strong. How, can you be specific?
The only person on that stage that I respect is Ron Paul. I understand he is the total opposite to me on every economic issue. He does not flip flop he has his own beliefs and he sticks to them. You have to give him credit to still stand strong against foreign intervention, military adventures, support civil rights and speak against the mistake of torture, rendition and military tribunals. The guy make sense on a lot of foreign policy issues.
I am a liberal but it would be interesting to see what a true independent thought.
That true independant is Ron Paul! Not another war monger like Obama and the rest of the republican field!
Yellowdog -
I'm obviously also a liberal, not to mention a liberal without cable, so I didn't get to see the debate last night - but I'm not surprised to hear that when asked what they would do if elected themselves, the universal answer was just "Not what Obama's doing" and/or "I know how to do this, I'm just not gonna tell you". While she hardly invented this "debate" strategy, Sarah Palin certainly mastered it early on - and sadly, these type of answers apparently satisfy a lot of people, because neither the debate moderators nor the voting public ever seem to demand anything more. You'd get a better debate out of your average high-school debate team than you ever will out of most political "debates" these days.
As for your "How, can you be specific?" question, for all the issues I had with Bill Clinton, he was a master at answering questions that way. My lasting image of him from any debate or town hall was him striding around the stage (if allowed) and literally ticking things off on his fingers - i.e., first, I would do this; second, we need that; third, we all need to something else; fourth, etc, etc, etc. I'll always respect him for that.
And, like you, I guess I too respect Ron Paul for at least standing by his convictions. I would probably never vote for him because we're too far apart on many issues, but at least you know where he stands, and he's not likely to have a totally different answer tomorrow.
As for what a true Independent thought of the debates - well, geez, haven't the rest of us managed to scare away the few true Independents who ever venture onto this board by now? :)
Fellow taxpayer - Ron Paul makes some good points. I would rather pursue his brand of foreign policy then the one Obama has used to escalate twice in Afganistan and enter a pointless excursion into Libya. Mr. Paul rightly points out that the President has kept Bush's rendition and wiretapping programs in place. He has continued the Patriot act etc...
The trouble I see with Mr. Paul is his exteme views of pure, idealogical free market principles that asks for no regulation on business. The free market will not mandate protection of our air and water. The free market will not mandate protection of our food, protect worker abuse from business whose sole purpose is to garner profits. It is expensive to have a mix of capitalism and protection in our economic model but it is necessary.
JoAnne - You didn't miss much. Like you I am very much a liberal but was hoping to see if the moderators would call people on their answers. They did not.
Despite my criticisms of President Obama on some fronts he is still the best choice in my opinion. As football recently started I see him and the rest of the democrats on the conservative side of the field on the forty, so he clearly is center right. I only hope Obama stops trying to line up a field goal to add a score for the GOP. He needs to turn to the left and head away from his right leaning concessions and strategies.
Yellowdog -
Got it. Though if we're going to stick with the football analogy, I think the problem right now is that he's getting zero support from his offensive line, i.e., the fellow Democrats who are supposed to be stopping the blitz. But then, most teams who try to live by the blitz invariably end up giving up a long bomb or two, and the conservatives don't seem to have anyone who can gain much yardage without fumbling the ball. Most of them will be back warming the bench long before the second half. And I can live with going back and forth between the 40's in the first half as long as we play it the way I know we're capable of in the second half - I mean, second term.
As for field goals, the only one I want to see is Adam Vinatieri's last-second 45-yarder in the Snow Bowl against the Raiders in 2002(?) to send it into overime. Never get tired of watching that one!
Delusional article written by an obvious Obama supporter who has gorged on the KoolAid. Anyone on that stage would be better than Barack Obama. In this coming Presidential election, we the people will pick ABB (Anybody But Barack)!!!