They run for the millions they get while campaigning... it beats working !

Michele Bachmann vowed not to vote for raising the debt ceiling under any circumstances--she favored a default! This is a major reason why S&P downgraded our rating, and you're telling me she's still in the race? She should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail!

Teabagger goals go far beyond taxes, debt, etc. There has always been a radical right-wing faction in our nation from Confederate/KKK-types wanting to secede from the union to Christian groups wanting a theocracy. Also, history shows most revolutionary movements begin with populist claims (e.g., this is how Hitler came to power), but once in power their true agenda is made known.

Following the Bush/Cheney administration, the Tea Party began with populist goals of fiscal responsibility, and running on lies like job creation. But it didn't take long for the movement to evolve into a fundamentalist white supremacist majority, and once elected, Teabag candidates did nothing about jobs and instead focused on things like making abortion illegal.

Many say the movement is now about the role of government, but it is much more serious than that. Since the 2010 election, the GOP/TP has undermined democracy, starting with requirement of a filibuster-proof super majority to pass any legislation up to recent hostage-taking tactics. Understand that the hostage-taking, first over a government shut-down that establishment Republicans have done before, became even more radical with the Tea Party that actually wanted a default.

But the biggest proof of the Tea Party goal to replace our constitutional democracy with a one-party plutocracy is exposed by the desire to amend the constitution so as to force their radical CC&B government system upon the rest of the nation -- Because by taking budget decisions out of the hands of representatives elected by the people, and replacing it with their own mandatory budget requirements, it ends the democratic process.

As "sausage making" and messy as it may be, the democratic process is what the founding fathers intended. Otherwise they would not have given power over the purse to Congress; rather the Executive Branch could dictate all monetary matters. A balanced budget amendment is dictatorship just the same by another name.

The GOP/TP leaders, which cannot be separated until Teabaggers are voted out in 2012, won't come out and say that, of course not, and many of the followers, who are not constitutional lawyers or public policy professors, don't grasp the real repercussions. The loose structure provides cover and the lack of clarity allows for broader membership en route.

Running as Republicans with public funds and challenging real Republican candidates from the right, allowed Tea Party candidates a foot in the door. That's not going to work anymore. The Tea Party's true agenda of anarchy has been revealed with refusal to raise the debt ceiling under any circumstances (I predict Michele Bachmann's chances are over based on this alone), because conservatives such as seniors and military families were frightened hostages along with the rest of the nation. Polls showed low approval of Republicans, with the Tea Party in the toilet even before the downgrade.

Yesterday the news was all a buzz about how the Tea Party is here to stay, but their candidates just need to stay on message about "out-of-control spending," and how Republicans have had to move farther to the right to keep from being "primaried." After the S&P downgrade, and statements clearly indicating the need for a balanced approach that must include revenues, and long-term plans for recovery such as investment spending on job creation and economic stimulus, the Tea Party is about to be issued the red letter 'T' for terrorist traitors.

It's amazing what one day can make. Here's' the new political advice consultant's should offer: Tea Party candidates should worry about more thorough vetting and being exposed as out-of-the-mainstream all the more (the way Joe Walsh has been exposed), and then being "primaried" from the center. More moderate/establishment Republicans (if there are any left other than McCain), go on the offensive, not the defensive.

This thread is vastly different than the posts under Perry"s prayer thread. Just scanned the 18 pages of religious zealots' one sentence theologies! Scary...

Maybe it is the" New Hampshire" in the title and the undiscovered candidate named Johnson.

Have a nice weekend.

Good thought out post spoken like a true patriot.

Have a nice evening.

True Patriot - You make statements out of your arse. Let me give you an example. Michelle Bachman vowed not to vote for raising the debt ceiling - she favored a default.

She favored a default... What an asinine statement. See how you liberals spin? Because she vowed to not vote in favor of raising the debt ceiling, the only other alternative is for her to favor a default. Only in liberal spinville is this true. How many other things are you leaving out of her statement because you want to give a boost to your worshipful master Obama? The outright failure of a president. The president that will go down in history to be the first to have our credit rating drop... not only by Moodys, but by Standard and Poor too.

Share the stain True Patriot... He's your president and you can suck up to him.

What land do you live in brian?

You call it spinville to come to a rational conclusion. Not raising the debt ceiling is defaulting. So how can you be for one and not the other.

I'll bet they are spining this at faux. You were dumb enough to believe it.

You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

brainb, have read all your posts today and your discussions on the other threads. Just had to reply with my two cents worth.

Bachmann is an example of the dysfunction in Congress. she spoke loudly before the debt ceiling bill passed that she would vote no. she told her audiences that default would not be the end of the world. The government had plenty of money to pay the interest on the debt each and every day after Aug 2.This was in direct contrast two weekend ago when the grand bargain that Boehner and Obama were willing to try broke down because of the apparent reaction of their bases.

Last weekend we were debating what would be the end game with the clock ticking toward default.

tonight we have a law that says we will cut spending over 2T over ten years, with the details to be worked out by 12 members of Congress. and S.P lowered the country's debt rating because as the spokesperson said on CNN this afternoon: There is no long term solution that will address this properly. That this country came to the eleventh hour of default ,spotlights the dysfunction of lawmakers and the extreme partisanship that is the new normal.

President Obama sined the bill but he said it ws not what he wanted. boehner said he got 98% of what he wanted. So Brian, where do you think Congress should go from here?

I just ordered my bumper stickers.

One says "I'll tread on you, I got big boots, tea party's over kids"

One beneath it says "Armed Liberal"

Not only has Bachmann strongly opposed raising the debt ceiling, even after the stock market tanked, she has the audacity (okay, stupidity) to STILL defend such a position of "not taking action" to raise the debt ceiling.

The S&P downgrade of our credit rating was based in large part on the delay in raising the debt ceiling, and taking it down to the wire, rather than just raising it via a clean vote. And we ALL know it was the GOP/TP who blocked a clean vote and caused the delay with unwillingness to compromise on anything, taking it down to the wire until they got 98% of what they wanted.

Bachmann made the comments while speaking against this week’s congressional agreement to raise the debt ceiling.

She has been a strong opponent of the increase, saying the nation could have met its obligations without taking action to increase debt. Many economic experts, however, have said the U.S. could have been forced to default on some of its debt obligations had the increase not been approved. That would have been a major problem that could have spun the U.S. and the global economies into a downward spiral, they contended.

Brianb -- Connect the dots. And when did Moody's downgrade our credit rating?

As for the president, had Boehner not walked away from the $4 trillion Big Deal, that represented an immediate and larger agreement with no more drawn out brinkmanship, which consisted of equal amounts of spending cuts and tax revenues PLUS cost savings from entitlements, at the earlier time that the president proposed it, S&P would not have downgraded our credit rating.

All the words in bold are from the S&P reasoning for the downgrade. Brianb -- Try to keep up.

It appears the liberals are stuck in neutral. I'm not sure if you are obtuse, or just blind to the situation. I have my opinion on that, but for now, a few observations.

This country is in trouble and it's not from the Tea Party. We are in trouble from the establishment political partys. It seems both partys have lost direction because the politicians create the problems and then they claim they can fix them. Well... just how many problems have they fixed, or even addressed? I'm not talking about filling potholes. I'm talking about the economy. There is zero forward planning when it comes to expenditures versus revenue. They putz around relying on debt to pull them through their budgets. This is wrong on every level.

When the government reaches its spending limit, they vote in higher limits like it's supposed to be routine. They have convinced a large portion of Americans that they have it all under control and they are doing their jobs by increasing the nations debt. You liberals have completely bought into this and will stand there and argue that increasing the debt is necessary. You will totally trash anyone that fights the status quo. The status quo is going to destroy this country's economy with more horrendous impact than your little tyrades about someone not voting to increase the debt limit. You just aren't thinking it through, or you are just so narrowminded that you can't see the big picture.

How do I explain to you, with clarity, that our government is taking us over the cliff. This episode is a wake up call! It's time to wake up and address the problem! Here you stand, blaming a group of people that identify the problem, bring it to light, and go against the establishment political partys in order to show this country what is at stake... what the future holds. How much has the democrat party engrained itself into your lives to shut down all semblance of reasonable thought? You are so worried about what the republican party is doing and you have so formulated a hatred over any threat to your security blanket you are willing to blindly follow the party line to our destruction!

What ARE you thinking?

I know what you what you are thinking... You are thinking you are smarter than everyone else. You are thinking that the democrat party can do no wrong (I'm addressing liberals here who are predominantly democrat. I have serious problems with the republicans too). You have such blind faith in the elected democrat leaders you can't see any alternatives. I read your remarks. You have left such a footprint of your thought patterns on these boards it would take a moron to not know how you think.

I have only one suggestion - THINK FOR YOURSELVES! You should try it sometime. It will break down the barriers you have put up and shed some light on all those backward ideas you possess. You might actually see where going against the status quo of the established political partys was a good thing instead of the imagined default that was planted in your brains by your party. It might allow you the vision to see there was NO good alternative with any of the democrat/republican plans and what was settled on was no good either. The American people are getting a raw deal because the government will NOT address the root cause of our problem... $14.3 trillion worth of debt and climbing.

Of course, this will be viewed by the liberals as just another rant by me. I will await all the challenges, calling me names, saying I am crazy... or I just don't see the faults in all the tea party members because they are absolutely nuts... but before you do, I have one question for you... Why is it not the threshold of insanity to keep building our nations debt up when very shortly it will completely decimate this country and plummet us back into the stone age?

"Why is it not the threshold of insanity to keep building our nations debt up when very shortly it will completely decimate this county and plummet us back into the stone age?"

Brian you are worried about the debt, but the republican tea party leaders do not. With the republicans refusal to increase revenue no one believes the republicans tea people are serious about the debt. The republican demand that we keep the two worst mistakes of the bush presidency, the very reasons why we got in debt in the first place of unfunded tax cuts and unfunded wars.

Somehow we are to get out of debt, the same way we got in debt by adding to the debt. We can not cut our way back to a balanced budget.

As long as the republicans refuse to raise taxes on the richest in the United States, they are doing nothing, repeat nothing about the debt other than pretending they care about the debt.

If you feel pretending to care about the debt is more important that the debt itself, well keep on voting for a republican.

True Patriot - I have kept up with all the BS eminating from your side of the argument. I've read the reasoning behind the downgrade. You are overstating your side of the argument. You have parsed out what your ideology sees and are completely ignoring the other reasons for the downgrade. The LARGEST reason for the downgrade was because the government took last minute action to avert the perceived default. I say perceived because that's exactly what it was. You were told we'd default, therefore you believed it. I never believed it because the numbers don't tell the same story that was coming out of the White House. You bought it - I didn't. But, of course you believe everything the president says... how could you not... he's your hero. Yeah, that was a dig.

Moodys is on the cusp of downgrading us. They will downgrade us in a couple of months... watch and see. They will have no alternative because spending is NOT under control and our debt is going to rise. Those were the conditions they set to watch for. It's inevitable. When it happens, I will remind you.

Boehner had no alternative but to walk out of the $4 trillion deal. It would have never passed.

The whole truth to the matter is: The United States of America has had a AAA credit rating since 1917. That rating survived WWI, the Great Depression, World WarII, The Korean War, Vietnam, Jimmy Carter, 9-11, and those "unfunded" wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It couldn't survive less than one term of the current White House occupant's misguided policies".

As long as the republicans refuse to raise taxes on the richest in the United States, they are doing nothing, repeat nothing about the debt other than pretending they care about the debt.

Class warfare is the battle cry of the democrats. It has been for years... There is no justification for it, but a loud, yelling, shrieking crock of BS. You will not remove the blinders from your eyes... All you do is repeat democratic based talking points that are designed to limit your thinking power and enslave you to a political party that you have made your security blankie.

Hello,

One of the reason they stated for the downgrade was the lack of seriousness about the debt with the republican refusal to increase revenue. Another was our political discourse with the congress no longer has the ability to compromise. Getting 98% is not a compromise.

The other thing you forget is that bush carried the war off the debt. (think Enron) The wars only got added to the debt after Obama became president saying that he thought it was dishonest to carry that kind of debt off the books. See I don't think the ratings survived the unfunded wars because they just got added to the debt.

The republican tea party does not care about the debt. It was their manufactured crisis that caused the downgrade.

Brian it was the tea parties manufactured crisis about the debt ceiling that caused the downgrade.

Spending is not under control because the republicans refuse to raise taxes on the richest and 2.7 Trillion dollars of the debt and growing is for the tax cuts. If republicans refuse to raise taxes and continue to show no interest in the debt problem yes we could be downgraded more and it would be the republicans fault.

I know you heard it on faux that it was President Obama's fault. You come on here with censored news and wonder why you can't convince anyone with half the story.

Just a continuation of you claiming just because Bachmann voted to not increase the debt ceiling that she was not for default, when voting against passing the debt ceiling is voting for default.

The whole truth of the matter is: The only thing that matters to republican tea people is never raising taxes on the richest again.

If you feel pretending to care about the debt is more important that the debt itself, well keep on voting for a republican.

If YOU feel we can continue on raising our debt ceiling without ever addressing the root problem (The DEBT ITSELF), than keep on voting for a democrat.

Well I can see Brian pretending to care about the debt is more important that the debt.

I do not want to hear any more BS about the debt because you really don't care.

Why is tax breaks for the richest in the United States more important that America's future? Class warfare, yes it is and you don't even realize you are the planned victim.

The republican tea party pretends to care. If you too like to pretend to care, the tea party is for you.

Yes the debt that you don't care about.

Every economist I have listened to all state that the republican party is not showing any serious interest in paying down the debt without raising revenue.

The downgrade also stated that the refusal of the republican party to raise revenue raised doubt about the seriousness of caring about the debt.

The debt itself. Well 2.7 TRILLION DOLLARS of our debt is for tax cuts. That amount is still growing as the tax cuts are still in place.

How can you continue to add to the debt with tax cuts and claim you want to cut spending?

One of the reason they stated for the downgrade was the lack of seriousness about the debt with the republican refusal to increase revenue. Another was our political discourse with the congress no longer has the ability to compromise. Getting 98% is not a compromise. Another major point they stated for the downgrade was the refusal to touch Social Security and Medicare. Why didn't you mention this in your statement? See, my point exactly... there are 2 sides to EVERY story, but you libbies ONLY want to express your side. This is disingenuous and amounts to nothing but spin! In all reality, you are lying!

The other thing you forget is that bush carried the war off the debt. (think Enron) The wars only got added to the debt after Obama became president saying that he thought it was dishonest to carry that kind of debt off the books. See I don't think the ratings survived the unfunded wars because they just got added to the debt. If Bush carried the war off the debt, how was it paid for while 7 years of it were ongoing? Do you actually think we fought wars without paying the troops, buying the munitions, gear, equipment, food, uniforms, etc? This money was allocated by Congress and added as each funding request came through. Tell me you aren't this naive or stupid. The democrat party will have you believing in little green men from Mars with enough time.

The republican tea party does not care about the debt. It was their manufactured crisis that caused the downgrade. (After about 5 minutes of solid laughing)... The 60 member Tea Party caucus manufactured this crisis????? Maybe you already do believe in little green men from Mars... If they manufactured this, and caused so much clamity, if I were you, I'd be scared... very scared... for them to wield such a heavy sword to bring all the democrats to their knees and threaten to shut down the mighty U.S. Tell me... (can't stop laughing)... What gives a small band of, what were they called.... ahhh.. that's right.. nutcases... so much power? Are you telling me that the democrats were actually cowering in their hovels at the great and mighty Tea Party? Oh my gosh, I can't believe you are of this opinion... you really don't have any hope for your party at all do you?

Brian it was the tea parties manufactured crisis about the debt ceiling that caused the downgrade. This, coming from a democrat/liberal is about all I can expect these days. You are looking to blame everyone in the world, other than your own party... you just can't accept the faults your party has caused... and you skim over the words in the report... maybe you even close your eyes because you can't bear it. See how much damage the democrats have done to you? You ARE the Borg.

Spending is not under control because the republicans refuse to raise taxes on the richest and 2.7 Trillion dollars of the debt and growing is for the tax cuts. If republicans refuse to raise taxes and continue to show no interest in the debt problem yes we could be downgraded more and it would be the republicans fault. Here again... class warfare. A concept you seem to ignore. Raising taxes will NOT cause the government to spend less. Got that? Repeat it... raising taxes will NOT cause the government to spend less. One more time... just so you get the point... raising taxes will NOT cause the government to spend less. I'm certain you still don't get it... so we'll have to keep working on that concept.

I know you heard it on faux that it was President Obama's fault. You come on here with censored news and wonder why you can't convince anyone with half the story. I don't watch TV. It's against my time constraints. I much rather dedicate my time to being on the computer. I don't watch Fox, listen to Limbaugh, Beck, or any of the other talking heads. I understand this is confusing to you because you are looking to find out why I am a conservative. I don't need to be fed talking points, read conservative points or use any other means to know the difference between common sense and uncommon sense. I just use my brain to determine what is right and wrong... unlike you liberals that flock to Friday meetings of liberals to gather your common points.

Just a continuation of you claiming just because Bachmann voted to not increase the debt ceiling that she was not for default, when voting against passing the debt ceiling is voting for default. It's pointless to argue with you over this. Your mind is slammed shut. You refuse to see the reasoning, nor willing to discuss it rationally. Just remember, it is YOUR mind that is closed, courtesy of the democrat party.

The whole truth of the matter is: The only thing that matters to republican tea people is never raising taxes on the richest again. Yeah! You got it! We are protecting the rich democrats.

Well I can see Brian pretending to care about the debt is more important that the debt. If it was pretending, why were you and so many other people so worried about what the Tea Party did? I mean, after all, it was all pretend.

I do not want to hear any more BS about the debt because you really don't care. Oh no... I don't care. Standing up for the Tea Party means I don't care, does it? I was willing to ride the log all the way to the bottom of the ravine, but I don't care... none of this would have effected me, my family, my children or my grandchildren... but I don't care. Try your minimizing on someone else.

Why is tax breaks for the richest in the United States more important that America's future? Class warfare, yes it is and you don't even realize you are the planned victim. Victim? I'm a victim? You throw these statements around like they have meaning. The only way I become a victim is to not take care of my family. Even through 7 months of unemployment I took care of my family. Maybe you want to become a victim so you can whine and complain about it.

The republican tea party pretends to care. If you too like to pretend to care, the tea party is for you. Exactly how is it you care? You support this country going deeper into debt. You encorage the status quo. You aren't willing to look at the problems we face, take action to correct them nor are you willing to put yourself on the line... you are too ensconsed in your comfort zone of berating anyone that does stand up and make a solid point. You are the one standing on the side line throwing stones at those who were willing to, at great personal expense, bring out the issue front and center. But that's OK... you are a democrat and we know who you are.

The wars were paid for by first robbing social security and then adding the cost of the wars to our debt just under the table. Like Enron, we were carrying hidden debt. Enron hid its debt until the company went belly up. I wonder how they paid their bills?

Social security is solvent for another 30 years, what's the rush other that the republicans want to kill social security by way of privatation per the Ryan bill. Why should social security be on the table when tax inceases are not?

The republicans got 98% of what they wanted. Just why did they get 98%? Because the Democrats wanted to keep America from defaulting and the tea people wanted us to default. People other than brian understand that holding your country hostage to get what you want is a manufactured crisis. Especially when the whole drama did not need to happen. It was all a show to pretend to care about the debt while not really caring.

Raising taxes will not cause the government to spend less. Actually yes, raising taxes will cause the govenment to spend less. We have to borrow and add to the debt all the money for the tax cuts. We are up to 2.7 TRILLION Dollars. You would think surely we could cut spending for tax cuts for the rich.

With still defending Bachmann with her voting for not increasing the debt ceiling and voting for default is somehow twisted and Bachmann was not for default just because she voted for it. Then it is my mind that is closed and unwilling to discuss it rationally. wow..............

Brian if all this is coming from your head you are delusional.

Don't protect the rich democrats, see our party is for shared sacrifice, not for protecting the rich at all cost.

You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think

I am done with you Brian, you are delusional.

Voting for something means you are against it.

Saying you are worried about the debt, but are more worried about class warfare as the excuse for not wanting to raise taxes on the richest.

Then you want to believe that raising taxes doesn't cut spending.

The debt ceiling manufactured crisis was not a manufactured crisis.

Spending does not included the spending on the tax cuts and that the borrowed money for the tax cuts does not get added to the debt.

Bush wasn't carring the war debt off the books.

On and on too numberous to even recap. Yet, Brian wants everyone to believe that I am the one with blinders on and if I can't agree with his irrational thinking then I am the problem.

The wars were paid for by first robbing social security and then adding the cost of the wars to our debt just under the table. Like Enron, we were carrying hidden debt. Enron hid its debt until the company went belly up. I wonder how they paid their bills? This discussion isn't about Enron. Stop trying to obfuscate the fact that the wars were paid for as the funding requests came in. Considering that you don't have the ability to find out what was spent on the wars, other than by guessing, you can only speculate on what was spent. Most of the costs were allocated through the defense budget... and the liberals in congress would have made a much larger deal of it had the funding been taken from illegal methods. Not unless they were complicit in it. So tell me, were the democrats just as much to blame, or did they have the duty to blow the whistle on any illegal activity? Following the same line of reasoning, show me the reallocation of funds placed back into social security. I've tried to follow where the liberals have said this in the past with NO luck at all seeing large amounts of money paid back into the SS fund. To me, this is some made up story with no backbone...

Social security is solvent for another 30 years, what's the rush other that the republicans want to kill social security by way of privatation per the Ryan bill. Why should social security be on the table when tax inceases are not? But didn't you just say that SS was stolen from? Didn't you just say that the wars were paid for by stealing from Social Security? If this is the case, how can SS be solvent for another 30 years? If the money isn't there, how can it be solvent? Sounds to me like you are talking in circles. Maybe you are getting your facts confused...

The republicans got 98% of what they wanted. Just why did they get 98%? Because the Democrats wanted to keep America from defaulting and the tea people wanted us to default. People other than brian understand that holding your country hostage to get what you want is a manufactured crisis. Especially when the whole drama did not need to happen. It was all a show to pretend to care about the debt while not really caring. I've already done a good deal of laughing about this line of logic, or shall I say illogic. Boehner was politicizing... or can't you see that? 98% of what they wanted was to not raise taxes. Speaking of not raising taxes... how come the democrats didn't want to raise taxes either? Stenny Hoyer said that raising taxes on the American people would NOT be a good idea during a downturn in the economy. If Stenny Hoyer knew this, how come you don't know the same thing? Kucinish said it too. I guess you don't consider them real democrats... eh? You can believe it was a show all you want. It's real hard to beat reason into a fortified mind.

Raising taxes will not cause the government to spend less. Actually yes, raising taxes will cause the govenment to spend less. We have to borrow and add to the debt all the money for the tax cuts. We are up to 2.7 TRILLION Dollars. You would think surely we could cut spending for tax cuts for the rich. (another 5 minute pause to control the laughing) RAISING TAXES WILL CAUSE THE GOVERNMENT TO SPEND LESS??? BWAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should go on the late night circuit! This country could really use some solid laughter time!!! I bow to your sense of humor! The ONLY thing I have to say.... prove to me the government sets aside increased revenue... They have never paid down any debt other than that which was borrowed for WWII - but that was a different time when debt was taken seriously. There have been recent times when the government's revenue doubled... and they spent EVERY penny. They do NOT know restraint.

With still defending Bachmann with her voting for not increasing the debt ceiling and voting for default is somehow twisted and Bachmann was not for default just because she voted for it. Then it is my mind that is closed and unwilling to discuss it rationally. wow.............. Your mind is closed to the rationale. You refuse to even consider the necessity of placing the point that our government is addicted to spending beyond their means on the table. Your contention is we should have passed the debt ceiling without ever raising an eyebrow. Sorry to burst your bubble, but some of us are really pissed off that Obama spent $3.2 Trillion in less than 2 1/2 years. There's a lot more people pissed off about that than you'll ever want to think about.

Brian if all this is coming from your head you are delusional. What's the matter? Can't stomach a person that doesn't rely on daily talking points, following along with the conservative talking heads or can think for himself? Maybe you should try reading the news... listening to generic news stories and learning how to read between the lines on issues. It might enlighten you a little bit. Delusional? Show me where I am wrong... Not your opinion... just facts please. Show me, without your democrat spin, where, what I say won't hold water.

Don't protect the rich democrats, see our party is for shared sacrifice, not for protecting the rich at all cost. Then your rich democrats can volunteer what they think is their fair share. Funny, I haven't heard any news stories of any of them placing sizeable amounts of money into the IRS. Maybe you have them overestimated. Don't think they won't squeal like stuck pigs when their coffers are drained of their money.

You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think So that leads me to ask... when are you going to start thinking?

I am done with you Brian, you are delusional. I've given you every chance to prove me wrong. You just can't argue with the points I've made. I've gone through your statements one by one, given you my reasoning and you have the opportunity to do the same... I guess you can't come up with any justification for your line of thinking other than what you have been told. Like I've said... try thinking for yourself... stop listening to the democrats... they will fill your mind with mush.

Voting for something means you are against it. I was always under the impression that voting for something means you are for it. Not voting for something means you either can't because of ideological reasoning, or because you don't believe it is correct. It doesn't mean that you are limited to only one answer that only fits someone elses viewpoint.

Saying you are worried about the debt, but are more worried about class warfare as the excuse for not wanting to raise taxes on the richest. Now you are putting words in my mouth... I never said raising taxes on the rich was my form of class warfare. You own that completely. I never said why I thought it was wrong to raise taxes on the rich... you never asked. I was only responding to your statements.

Then you want to believe that raising taxes doesn't cut spending. It doesn't. Not with this government. History proves me correct.

The debt ceiling manufactured crisis was not a manufactured crisis. Only to those that don't like the results, was it manufactured.

Spending does not included the spending on the tax cuts and that the borrowed money for the tax cuts does not get added to the debt. Not when government doesn't take charge of realizing the amount of revenue they have coming in and make adjustments for. What is so hard for you to not realize this?

Bush wasn't carring the war debt off the books. Not when he went to congress for the allocations for it. I remember many requests that were made public. Everytime the liberals went crazy when it was approved. There's a law in this country... it's called Sunshine. Maybe you aren't familiar with it. Even the president has to follow it.

On and on too numberous to even recap. Yet, Brian wants everyone to believe that I am the one with blinders on and if I can't agree with his irrational thinking then I am the problem. It seems to me that you are the one trying to do the convincing. I'm just taking each of your points and responding to them. Maybe you aren't used to such a direct approach. Too personal? Hard to contain your thoughts when each one of them is challenged? Notice - no name calling... little beratement... only when I couldn't control my laughter... sorry about that... you really do have a humorous side to you.

American First - You've made many good points (and you're much more patient than me with those in a cone of silence). To expand on some of your points:

I know you heard it on faux that it was President Obama's fault. You come on here with censored news and wonder why you can't convince anyone with half the story.

Isn't that the truth. FOX outright lies but mostly they just omit information, which is just another form of lying. You can always tell who tunes in exclusively to FOX, or even FOX along with other sources--in which case to these viewers FOX reported the truth and the other sources are incorrect--because they are so ill-informed.

My conservative mother on Social Security was afraid she wouldn't get her check. Did she blame Teabaggers like Bachmann who didn't want to raise the debt ceiling no matter what, the Teabaggers who wanted to default? No, she blamed the president. The president who offered a large compromise that had the GOP/TP agreed to at that time, we would not have our credit rating downgraded. It's mind boggling, because it's so obvious, yet they can't see it.

Social security is solvent for another 30 years, what's the rush ... to kill social security. ...Why should social security be on the table when tax inceases are not?

Not only is Social Security NOT a reason for our deficit/debt, not only is Social Security solvent for enough years that we have plenty of time to shore it up, not only is Social Security the only viable retirement solution to date (we have seen what happened to people's 401ks and pension plans in the economic meltdown), there is an IOU owed to the people, some of which was used to fund Bush's @#$%! war in Iraq.

The GOP/TP has the audacity to ask the people to accept cuts in Social Security -- No you pay us back you rat bastards! The FACT is the right-wing leaders (many who are not elected) hated these New Deal programs from their inception. It's an ideology issue, not a fiscal one. As stated in my first post above, the far-right doesn't want fiscal responsibility, they want to completely change our government into a fascist (possibly theocratic) one-party plutocracy.

Since they are a minority and can't get their agenda passed with democratic processes, they've been working to dismantle our democratic system with every kind of machination, from propaganda outlets like FOX, to filibusters, to breaking Open Meeting laws, to making up fake building codes to close abortion clinics, etc. But the very most favorite tactic is crisis, and if there isn't one naturally like 9-11, then they create it like the debt ceiling threat.

The right-wing leaders (not their minions) are not interested in fiscal responsibility, and the same thing goes for the debt. During Bush/Cheney, Republicans ran up the debt so fast it made our heads spin, while they voted to raise the debt ceiling multiple times without question. This started the Tea Party movement, but very quickly the Tea Party reverted right back to God, gays and guns, and outright anarchy.

The sad thing is Dems only had a super majority for about nine months. And since that time have had to face a minority that has become so desperate as to lack any civility, ethics, and even patriotism. As such, our nation is still suffering from the voodoo economic policies of the right-wing, most notably the constantly growing deficit from the Bush tax cuts, especially the 2003 breaks on dividends, and loopholes on capital gains, and estate taxes, all of which only apply to the richest 2%.

Republicans can continue with their b!tch sessions and victim cards and blame games, but the FACT is we are currently practicing Republican economic policies. If they don't like the economy, then Republicans should end their @#$%&! wars and stop their failed "trickle down" supply-side policies.

Brianb wrote: "The LARGEST reason for the downgrade was because the government took last minute action to avert the perceived default. I say perceived because that's exactly what it was. You were told we'd default, therefore you believed it."

This is why conspiracy theories are so rampant among the right-wing. All the economists, all the financial experts, even conservative ones, including Wall Street and the Chamber of Commerce, all who warned us not to default are in cahoots with the White House. An after the deal was made that was 98% what the GOP/TP wanted, the stock market tanked, and then S&P downgraded our rating – this happened without defaulting. So concern about what would happen if we did default is all in our heads. Riiight.

Brianb went on to write: "Boehner had no alternative but to walk out of the $4 trillion deal. It would have never passed."

Wow, you're right brianb, "it would have never passed" because of the @#$%&! Tea Party caucus in the Republican House!

Brianb then parroted this squawking point: "The United States of America has had a AAA credit rating since 1917. That rating survived WWI, the Great Depression, World WarII, The Korean War, Vietnam, Jimmy Carter, 9-11, and those "unfunded" wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It couldn't survive less than one term of the current White House occupant's misguided policies".

Indeed, straight from FOX or WorldNetDaily or a viral E-mail… Our nation was never held hostage by Tea Party terrorists in the good old days when people were sane.

Our record debts are largely from the wars, the Bush tax cuts, and the unfunded prescription drug plan. The debt added to that since 2008 is mostly due to continuation of the wars and the Bush tax cuts. Only a small part is due to bail-outs, which have been paid back, and the stimulus was only $819 billion. The Affordable Health Care Act doesn't go into full effect until 2014.

As stated above, if you don't like the current policies, then you don't like failed Republican "trickle-down" voodoo economics, because that's what we've been doing to date.

Brianb – Though you come to this forum, your mind is closed and you are just a contrarian with too much time on your hands. I've already suggested to No Joe, bob, and others to talk to the hand. You don't have a case -- no attorney will represent you. Like American First, I'm done -- Thanks for playing.

Thanks true patriot

I know Brians post are delusional and claims they are his ideals and doesn't watch television.

I enjoy your post and look forward always to reading them.

True Patriot & Americans First -- it doesn't take very long to come to the conclusion BrianB isn't here for a debate...

His sole purpose is to argue, lie & of course name call...

I refuse to acknowledge someone who continually calls me 'carrot top in drag'!

PS: I enjoy both of yours posts... ;o)

PPS: Check out the ignore author feature - it works like a charm! lol

Already used the "ignore" feature on Brian.

About 20% of his stuff actually has some merit, but the rest is white noise, and even if you shoot down his contentions with a common-sense observation, he comes right back with the same static later in the day.

Brian: "tax cuts stimulate jobs"

Answer: no Brian Bush's tax cuts have been in operation for ten years,...so far,....no jobs

4 hours later: Brian: "tax cuts stimulate jobs"

Answer: no Brian Bush's tax cuts have been in operation for ten years,...so far,....no jobs

next day, Brian: "tax cuts stimulate jobs"

etc...

etc....

etc....

I'm done too. I could gain more talking to a doorknob.

I'm done too. I could gain more talking to a doorknob.

Plus doorknobs tend to be much more charismatic! lol

bwahahahaha.

i gather you've met brian feisty!

i gather you've met brian feisty!

Ohh Honey -- him & I have gone a couple of rounds...

Bottom line is, when all they have left is name calling ala 'carrot tro in drag'... you can count me out! ;o)

He can fool some of the people some of the time -- he can NOT fool all of the people all of the time!

What a complete honor. Blockhead liberals that feed fodder to each other are putting me on Ignore! I am quite flattered. It took them long enough to conceed defeat! They can't argue points so they ignore people. If it's not written in ThinkProgress, The Daily Kos, Huffington Compost or any number of progressive liberal pieces of crap, they can't take it. These same liberals cannot think for themselves. They drink in every word Obama says and their jaws drop with utter awe.

I have the advantage since they won't be reading my words anymore. I'll be able to freely tear apart their posts without any sort of backward comments in return from them. They of course, will not be inclined to read anything I have to say... and that's perfectly OK with me. Their asinine comments will be a free-for-all of creative destruction.

The one thing I find quite amusing... For people that call themselves True Patriot and Americans first... they exhibit the most unpatriotic and unAmerican form of partisanism this country has seen to date.

Now don't answer me you guys... because peeking is not allowed. I'll be commenting without rebuke.. which is the greatest form of fun these boards are known to possess.

Brianb – Though you come to this forum, your mind is closed and you are just a contrarian with too much time on your hands. I've already suggested to No Joe, bob, and others to talk to the hand. You don't have a case -- no attorney will represent you. Like American First, I'm done -- Thanks for playing.

Ouch!! You called him out True Patriot!! In essence Brian already has all of us on "ignore" anyway, so what's the diff?

I started off the day saying liberals were stuck in neutral. During the course of this day, I proved it. All the discourse and discussion and the conclusion of liberals is that I'm delusional. Through the day they couldn't prove one point... said the same talking points over and over again and showed everyone how much they have narrow minds. If they can't blame everyone other than liberals, they shut down... Since this country is infested with the liberal disease, it's no wonder.

Oh, what the hey... I can't let a challenge go unattended.... even if I have been put on ignore by a coward.

Our record debts are largely from the wars, the Bush tax cuts, and the unfunded prescription drug plan. The debt added to that since 2008 is mostly due to continuation of the wars and the Bush tax cuts. Only a small part is due to bail-outs, which have been paid back, and the stimulus was only $819 billion. The Affordable Health Care Act doesn't go into full effect until 2014. Yeah right. The stimulus was only $819 billion... What about the Omnibus Spending bill he signed... only an additional $400 billion added to the $819 for a grand total of $1.2 Trillion. I know.. chicken feed. Both wasted amounts of money we received NOTHING for. The bail outs have NOT been paid back... not from Chrysler because they are in the red again. Even Obama himself admitted that shovel ready jobs weren't there as he laughed on nationwide TV... the putz! I'm sorry, I called your master a PUTZ!! The ACA is looming... we won't even know the cost of that disaster until it's implemented... unless it gets recinded by a more sensible president in 2013.

As stated above, if you don't like the current policies, then you don't like failed Republican "trickle-down" voodoo economics, because that's what we've been doing to date. You are completely wrong. We've been living under Kensyan economics ever since Obama took over. If his economic policies are so good... as you think they are... where's the reversal in the economic conditions? I thought Obama had all the answers... at least he convinced you he did. I never trusted him and won't ever. We don't know enough about his history to ever formulate a trust of this snake in the grass. He has radical handlers but you refuse to even consider that. What's it going to take? His storm troopers pounding in everyone's door and arresting all that disagree with him?

Brianb – Though you come to this forum, your mind is closed and you are just a contrarian with too much time on your hands. I've already suggested to No Joe, bob, and others to talk to the hand. You don't have a case -- no attorney will represent you. Like American First, I'm done -- Thanks for playing. Talking to the hand would be a whole lot more productive than talking to you liberals. Your arrogance and know it all posture closes your mind to anyone that doesn't agree with you. I'm actually glad you are done... now put me on ignore so I can tear up your future posts with ease.

LOL -- Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Maybe Bachmann can remind everyone that nothing would happen if we default. The financial markets won't be harmed, and our credit rating won't be harmed. I find it very disturbing, when the elected officials of this country haven't got the slightest clue on how it functions.

The Facts are 6.1 Trillion under W. Bush.

For deranged moonbats, Bachmann is the new Palin. Deep seated feelings of inferiority cause such bleatings...

Deep seated feelings of inferiority cause such bleatings...

Doggone, you're right, Bob. Here I am without a date on Saturday night.

I would MUCH rather be with Marcus Bachmann.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ....

Bob must be fighting with his wife again calling us moonbats.

Poor Anna without a date. Don't feel so bad Anna... I'm all alone too. In a town where I don't know anyone... Not familiar with the surroundings... Don't know the safe areas vs the unsafe sections...

See? Things could be much worse.

A tad off topic, but some interesting reading and straightforward information and explanation rendered at:

Worth checking out; The People's View is shaping up to be a good ideological and temporal fit for me.

Forgot to include the link for TPV.

Forgive, totally screwed those links up. Will try again.

OOPS! Some major brain farts, I give up. LOL.

Savvy, if you just type the link without making it a real link, we can just highlight the address and it pops up in our search bar.

AM have you considered matchmaker.com, I'm just saying.

''Tea Party rebutter Michele Bachmann is under fire for saying the Founding Fathers eliminated slavery. Sarah Palin is very upset. Another female Republican trying to steal the dumbass vote.'' —Jay Leno

I am not sexist. Michelle Bachmann would also be a lunatic if she were a man ..... kinda like Rick Santorum.

We know how that works on FR, if you've ever been in disagreement with the "messiah". So admit it don you are a sexist.

What a foolish accusation! Do you really believe that any man who criticizes any woman is sexist? I do know what I think of silly people who use terms like "messiah".

I guess pelosi really gets your juices flowing.

speaking of that ...I wonder what pelosis chances are of ever being elected.....Pelosi for pres.

Beachbum - you owe me a computer screen! LOL!!

What a joke, fed up citizens like you and me. The republican tea party is all about never raising taxes on the richest in the United States again.

They want to do nothing about the debt other than cut, cut programs for needy Americans just to keep taxes low for millionaires.

To really do something about the debt by raising taxes, not going to happen.

Yes I am a fed up citizen, tired of watching the republican tea people only care about the rich and nobody else. I am fed up watching the republican tea people willing to let our country default to protect the rich from raising their taxes. Just where is the part about citizens like you and me?

Mostly the tea people are nothing like me, I love my country, and don't feel the need to turn it over to the rich to please Norquist and his rich friends.

Americans First:

You are exactly right in your viewpoint that the TEA party is merely a sham created to preserve the ideology that the privileges of the top 1% that were created by the Reagan administration in the 1980's remain untouched and if anything extended even further.

The ideology of trickle down economics should be destroyed along with the lap dog politicians of the wealthy that support it.

The liberals express themselves so well. They totally avoid the reallity of the issue. In the liberal elitist attitude, the Tea Party is nothing but dirt. I don't care what the liberals think about them. It will be the liberals doused with reality as the Tea Party grows. All these childish comments made now will come to haunt them as the movement grows. I expect the rethoric to become a lot nastier too... and that will really build up the liberal ideology as archane and anything but progressive.

I'm waiting for the deer in the headlight stares from the liberals as they watch the Tea Party start to win more elections... there's NOTHING like the incredulous looks on the faces of liberals that think they know everything when reality slaps them in the face.

The Tea Party is most definitely NOT like me!

And that's a good thing fielden. The beauty of this country is that everyone can hold an opinion... right or wrong, left or right, up or down... it doesn't really matter... What is important is that each of us can express it without worry of being tossed in prison. Thank your mother and father that they bore you in THIS country... and not in some other country where you couldn't speak your mind.

They want to do nothing about the debt other than cut, cut programs for needy Americans just to keep taxes low for millionaires.

Our out of control elected officials are spending your tax dollars on:

The Energy Star Program. Presidential Campaign Fund. American Treasures Program. National Endowment for the Arts. Duplication of agencies in the Department of Education. Federally subsidized exchange programs. The U.S. Mint minting coins no one wants and warehouse space to store them. Boll Weavel eradication. Research grants to study dairy cow "emissions", video game research, and internet dating. Federal funding for critter crossings and a neon sign museum.

How would eliminating these programs hurt the poor and needy? Seriously.

The Energy Star Program. Presidential Campaign Fund. American Treasures Program. National Endowment for the Arts. Duplication of agencies in the Department of Education. Federally subsidized exchange programs. The U.S. Mint minting coins no one wants and warehouse space to store them. Boll Weavel eradication. Research grants to study dairy cow "emissions", video game research, and internet dating. Federal funding for critter crossings and a neon sign museum.

How much was lost on these programs as compared to revenue lost due to Bush's tax cuts? How much do each compare to the deficit?

I think you're stepping over $100 bills to pick up pennies, Candice.

Candice, getting an argument back from a liberal is par for the course. They believe in government waste. They don't have the answer other than to raise taxes on the rich. They won't be satisfied until the top 2% of wage earners are paying 90% of their wages in taxes. They keep on citing the good old days before Reagan when that was the tax rate for the highest paid workers in the country. Just imagine, if you made $1 million, you got to keep $100,000. The government got it's grimey hands on the other $900,000. This is what the liberals ultimate goal is... to take from the rich and redistrubute to the government. And to think they call themselves progressives.

I'm gonna bet that a guy who made a million has never actually paid $900,000 in taxes in the history of America. They should at least pay the same rates as you do, they don't, that is the truth. They should pay their fair share of the bills. Why is fair, now called crazy, liberal, progressive redistribution of wealth, and if they don't pay their fair share then that is redistribution of wealth by nature of other people paying more than their fair share. If it is fair to say that raising their taxes to my percentage is redistribution of wealth then it is fair to say that not raising their rates to my percentage is a redistribution of my wealth.

GOPisex,

And therein lies the difference between you and me. I want my tax dollars to go to projects and programs that are meaningful and do some good. You are fine with spending on non-essential and wasteful programs. Your "side" says you are the advocates for the poor and needy, yet you tolerate government funds directed away from those in need.

When the government exercises fiscal restraint and fiduciary responsibility, I will happily pay more in taxes. That is the issue that fiscal conservatives are making right now.

Both $100 bills and pennies add up to real change after awhile.

Brian,

I don't understand the obsession with the "tax the rich." If the rich paid even more than what they're paying now, jobs would not be created, spending would not decrease. Based on the government's track record, none of that extra revenue would wind up in the pockets of the left, or trickle down to those in need.

If a 90% tax rate on the highest earners made a difference in society, the pre-Reagan poverty rate would have been zero.

I'm guessing depriving the successful from keeping more of their own money would simply make the left feel good. There's no other benefit that I can see.

Forrest,

So you're saying that "fair share" is a percent? So, if you pay 20% of your income in taxes, the rich should pay 20% as well? I'm just trying to get a handle on what you all consider "fair share."

Then those who have income but don't pay any taxes at all should pay 20% of income (however small), too?

The wealthier, who pay the majority of taxes, don't tend to use the services their tax money buys. Do you think those who use the services should contribute some too? Do you think that's fair?

Do you think it's fair or even right to take your money or mine, and spend it wastefully without regard?

It's very easy to spend money, if it's not your own.

How much was lost on these programs....

$1,638,139,000

Do you really believe that the top wage earners pay most of the taxes, they pay most of the income taxes, property taxes, licence fees, and sales taxes, well they do not. Yes I think the wealthy should pay the same percentage as I do on their income, charge the poor people whatever you want, they can't give you what they don't have.

Well, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the top 5% of earners pay 59% of taxes. The bottom 50% of earners pay 3% of all income tax revenue collected. I don't have figures for sales taxes but I bet wealthy people pay a lot more in property taxes than lower income folks.

I was just asking if you think a flat percentage tax system is fair and if you think the government should be a little more responsible when spending our money.

If you believe that the top 5% pay more property and sales taxes than the rest of of all consumers then why is revenue down when income and other personal wealth is at an all time high for the top tier. According to your theory we should have had a revenue increase. The wealthy have had a steady increase in their income, so why are the states broke, if they pay more. Fact is Exon (one example) posted world record profits, quarter after quarter they pay little or nothing and get billions in subsidies. Again according to your theory the tax money should be rolling in and it does not. The states are broke because middle class America is broke and they pay most of the bills, they don't have jobs so no income tax is paid, and they lost their homes by the millions so they no longer pay property taxes. How much gasoline does the top five percent burn, you think they pay more gas taxes then the other 95%, you think they pay more sales tax, do they eat more groceries, pay more sales tax on cars, furniture, ect, ect. I'm sorry Candice it is ridiculous, it is not true and declining revenues even in the most affluent areas proves it is not true.

Yes the government could be way more responsible about spending, there is no doubt, but they can't operate on 1950's level revenue. There is a revenue problem if you ever hope to first become solvent, second run a surplus, and third use that surplus to pay down the debt. I'm telling you that my personal business effectively pays less taxes on more income than when I worked for an employer. Should we base tax rates and deductions on how you make your money, is that fair or is that class warfare? I will tell you this I live in the same house, use the same streets, drink from the same water system, I am the same person, I did not create any jobs other than for myself, I just make more and pay less than I used to.

I notice that Republicans get a little defensive over the Tea party because they know that it's a movement with no soul. These people say no more taxes. Guess what? President Obama lowered your taxes. Without realizing it, they have been duped into protecting the wealth of the rich. If someone challenges people like Brianb they lash out and make idiotic claims like "The Tea Party will continue to grow." I am a liberal and proud of it, I stand for protecting the middle-class and the disadvantaged. Are we perfect? Of course not. But at least you can't accuse me of protecting those people who write their own rules and pay very little taxes in order to live in what was a great country.

Tom, Yreka...

Since I'm not a repub, I really can't comment on the defensive thingy, but I have to disagree with you over the "no soul" statement. First, we would not even be having this little argument if not for the Tea Party movement. Why did not the professional politicians (both dems & repubs) do something about the deficit/debt before the TP movement began? Heck, the so-called budget submitted by Obama back in the spring proposed a very big increase in spending which therefor would have increased the current deficit/debt even further.

As far as you being a liberal and glad of it - I too am happy for you! I believe that we need liberals/socialists to keep us on our toes and you folks will always give us plenty to debate.

I have a question for you. Just how long can we continue to increase the deficit/debt before we face financial doom?

Just Asking...

WOW GOP, I never realized you took on the mantle of being a professor. Teaching all the other little guppies how to swim.

I've often said to liberals... Be proud of who you are! Never back down and never be afraid to tell people what you stand for. Once those other people find out... they can decide who's on the correct side of things.

One thing though... how can you claim being pro-life? Maybe you don't have your arms around the abortion issue yet.

It sure sounds to me like you are claiming everything the republicans claim... how are we going to be able to tell the difference between democrats and republicans after your little message gets around?

::snicker::

tea party fan,

If this debt crisis financial doom is real then why would the tea partiers refuse to raise taxes, the only real solution to our current problems?

In a real crisis wouldn't the country pull together and all including the rich be expected to pitch in?

Maybe Americans didn't believe Obama when he got on TV and announced it to the world... making threatening statements like he didn't know if he could send out Social Security checks and pay the military or the military contractors... I know I didn't believe him... and realized he was only exaserbating his political forum.

Interesting how conservatives always ask "Just how long can we continue to increase the deficit/debt before we face financial doom?"

Apparently conservatives believe progressives want to increase the deficits/debt, which is the first fallacy in this question. Progressives are much more serious about reducing the deficit/debt than conservatives are, because it can only be done with a balanced approach of tax revenues along with spending cuts.

I have some questions for you tea-party-fan. First: Just how long do you think we could continue with "starve the beast" policies of 16% of GDP spending and no increase in tax revenue (ever, no matter if we were attacked, or just plain population growth, etc.)? Any reputable economist will tell you we need a minimum of 22% of GDP in spending right now.

Second: Just how long do you think we can continue to suffer losses of revenue from tax evasion (57% of which comes from the the self-employed/business owners), and loopholes that allow corporations and the wealthy to pay only 15% rates? A related question: Knowing that rates could be lowered over all for everyone if these write-off credits were ended, why don't you support that?

Third: The S&P actually names the Republican Party as part of the problem, and only the Republican Party. Why do you suppose that is?

Conservatives are incapable of Rule of Reason, so can never go beyond the initial talking point. Heck they don't even have common sense. It makes me wonder why they haven't been hit by a car by now.

Don't listen to TruePatriot Tea Party Fan. He only tells half the truth. The part that suits his political party and ideology. The S&P report doesn't only name Republicans in its report. It places blame equally along all spectrums. TruePatriot didn't read it... he got his talking points from other liberals that only scanned the document and parsed it.

TruePatriot believes only republicans and conservatives are business owners. He fails to recognize the amount of democrats and liberals that own businesses. For tax evasion he's alluding that it's only the other guys that evade taxes... even though many of Obama's cabinet choices evaded on their taxes. Never a mention of those guys from liberals.

Notice the attack mentality? Everything is accusatory, like you are the one creating the problem... Keep on having faith in the Tea Party... They are doing wonderful things. Above all, don't ever be afraid of the likes of TruePatriot. Most of what he says comes straight from the lower orifice.

The Tea Party was correct in their refusal to accept any tax increases. Why hand the government any more money to piss away? They had a full blown party with $3.2 Trillion dollars in the past 2 1/2 years. Liberals can't see this though... they keep on making up excuses for Obama and his free for all spending spree.

Don't listen to Brian, he is delusional and just reprints dis-proven talking points over and over.

And there you go folks. A member of the great Tea Party exhibits his willingness to look at both sides of an issue and give the middle finger to compromise, beat his chest and proclaim " It's my way or the Hi-way." Good job tea-party-fan, I'm glad you are able to let someone else do your thinking.

Forest is right, you want to cheat on your taxes? Make a lot of money, the tax laws were made for it.

As a business you don't have to cheat, the laws are stacked in your favor, you just would not beleive what is legal for business to deduct. Try deducting a round of golf if you are a working man!

Forrest Grump-- You're right. It just feels like your cheating. My wife and I had a few good years where we walked out of the accountant's office with dazed looks on our faces, while at the same time looking over our shoulders for an IRS agent. But the laws are written for the wealthy and the more money you make, the less percentage you pay in taxes. Why Tea Party fans want to protect that inequity is kind of hard to understand, unless they are rich themselves. By the way, I always read your comments, they are most thoughtful and wise.

Forrest - I never thought about deducting a round of golf when I owned my business... does putt-putt count? It would be a business expense if I brought a client along with me, eh? How about a trip to Disneyworld? Do you think I could get away with that too? LOL! I guess with the right circumstances that could also be deemed a business expense.

How have you been? I haven't seen you on here all week. Hope your week went well.

Thank you Tom you are very kind, I am probably just more of a grumpy pain in the ass, than thoughtful and wise, but I do try to be honest about the world as I know it. As an individual everything I buy is afforded after taxes, as a business anything I buy (darn near) is deducted from gross "sales" and taxes are paid on that reduced sum, for me personally it is like getting a 25-30% discount on anything that is paid for by my business as opposed to being paid for by me as an individual. You are right about the feelings of guilt, being a working man for most of my life I did not realize what the business community takes for granted, when the tax guy tells me the rules it sometimes seems as if I have suddenly been given license to steal. As an individual I can be sued for anything and everything I will ever own if I harm somebody. If my business gets sued they can only get what the business owns, my assets as an individual are bulletproof.

Brianb, all you have to do is talk a little business on the golf course, then it is a meeting and you are good to go, and yes anything goes, $25,000 for a private jet instead of the cost of plane tickets can be deducted from a corporations income if they wish to operate in that manner. I don't know how you hire out but if you incorporated and named your wife and as an officer you can deduct most of Disneyland! It can be a funny thing when my wife records the minutes to a meeting where labor (me) is complaining that management (her) is not giving me a good screwing that I think I deserve! My trip and the whole gig was fantastic, I worked hard to give them everything they came for and more, and was unusually busy in the evenings as well, thank you for asking. For a guy like me to stand in front of his colleagues and peers in my industry in a University school of engineering classroom and be taken seriously is a thrill, I cannot properly describe.

I'm very glad your trip was successful. I owned a S corp a few years back. The interesting thing was that I didn't need to report any profit for 3 years. Everything could be labeled as an expense. I just never thought of golf. LOL. I'm not a player so it never entered my mind. I was always cautious about my entertainment expenses... I didn't want to get audited. I've been audited several times with my personal taxes but they were painfree. I had to file an ammendment to one of my tax returns because I miscategorized some expenses... they were legit... just not done right.

As a working person, if you file long form, there are deductions you can take that involve business. I can always file my mileage since I drive a lot as a project manager... and that can turn into a hefty deduction at $.53 a mile. I remember one year I claimed a $20K deduction due to mileage... fortunately I had the daily mileage chart at my disposal cuz that was one time I was audited.. they didn't believe I drove 20K miles that year for my job... shoot driving 20k miles as a project manager is a drop in the bucket some years.

I agree Missy-But I don't think the GOTP ever will though.

Forrest, you are cogent and informative as always. Even Chrysler gets a lot of write offs. Whenever I take a class Chrysler gets to write off the cost with the feds.

If I am sick for a protracted period (> 1 day), they used to tell us (semi-jokingly) to call in sick for another 2 days. Chrysler gets reimbursed our wages by their insurance company for three days of employee absence, but not for one.

Yup.

It ain't all that bad being a company. And with all that you now have corporate "personhood", aaaaaand you only have to pay an average of 15% in taxes, and 2/3 rds of corporations pay no tax at all.

Such a deal.

"If I am sick for a protracted period (> 1 day), they used to tell us (semi-jokingly) to call in sick for another 2 days"

Yeah, that's not fraud in a semi-jokingly way! What about when you're stoned at work and get hurt? Who pays for that or is that a write off too? I mostly like do.

GOPisextinct:

Yes, the agenda is rather obvious to most of us as a return to the 19th century for the wealthy. A place where unions, the rights of workers and consumer protection have no place.

As long people divide along partisan, racial and religious lines the wealthy can bring their plan into action with no resistance; it's the old divide and rule trick.

Perhaps the objectives of the coup to overthrow FDR through a group of prominent business leaders has been buried in history for a reason; if one studies these objectives you might see the pattern for which the path this country is placed on currently.

Is that Government insurance or private insurance?

If you guarantee it, prove it?