You all think Kelly O"Donnell has a stock ticker in her office? Maybe a TV?

I guess Norah was the smart one after all.

bilweeler:

Once again the Senate brokers the deal

Navy:

Yup. I want to see the details, but this problem needs to go away.

On the bright side, Congress can't really lose much in terms of approval ratings...

Finally, some good news today!

Harry comes through on 4th down & inches...

I guess the "Job Creators" won't be trickling down on us as much at the moment. But, hey, they got theirs...they took the money and ran.

Hope it isn't a reflection on a do-nothing Congress.

Maybe Congress will stay in recess - Indefinitely.

Most economists on Wall Street are pointing the finger at Europe. Bad economic news from Italy and the Greece mess may not be done yet.

Looks like a Global Mess for sure - Bad thing with that is we are now at their mercy as if we did not have enough problems here for sure.

I think it closed at 513 down.

Dylan Ratagan has a bunch of big wigs from Wall Street on trying to explain this mess.

Maybe this is a reflection of the fact that the market was down over 512 points, 4.31%, which amounts to trillion of dollars in lost wealth today alone.

Maybe some Congressional leaders have come to the realization that their political brinksmanship has consequences and needs to end.

Maybe they've come to realize that the American people have had enough of this @!$%#.

Nope - I'm going with the epic fail that is Europe.

And let's not forget that China is teetering on the brink itself.

Brace yourselves. Oh and might be a good time to stock up on emergency supplies.

You just never know.

What's the matter, Congress? Isn't the debt ceiling victory playing so well?

A little worried about our PR situation, are we? Because we already know you're not worried about the workers.

Oh and might be a good time to stock up on emergency supplies.

Do Cheetos count, Spanky?

Navy:

Most economists on Wall Street are pointing the finger at Europe. Bad economic news from Italy and the Greece mess may not be done yet.

They're always trying to blame someone else.

Last month it was the interest situation in China, at least according to one of my financial advisers, who no doubt read it somewhere in a Wall Street publication, because I heard that very talking point from an economist on the TeeVee a couple of nights later.

Let them explain why this current dip coincides precisely climax of the debt ceiling deal, and why so many analysts immediately reacted to that deal by saying quite clearly that it won't work.

Are they saying that had NO effect on confidence while Italy did?

If Congress tries this dodge, it will leave them open to questions about why we've done absolutely nothing to deal with Europe, Japan, and China.

Why would anyone trust these Wall Street guys, anyway? They're the same ones who got us into this?

Some of them took mighty big profit today. Everyone else, not so much.

Spanky,

The epic fail in Europe is old news. Very old news.

People can blame the drop in the Italian markets and the advent of more bad economic news coming tomorrow. I just don't see it that way.

If you look at the market for the last 2 years, it has absorbed bad economic news over and over again and always rebounded. Same news as to slow growth, unemployment, deficits and debt and European crisis. Month after month...no change.

The only thing that has changed since August 1st is the passage of the debt ceiling bill. It's only cuts, no revenues, which will suck $2.8 trillion out of an economy that is retracting. People are reacting by taking their profits now before the market starts a more serious decline than we are seeing now. Interest rates will rise. Borrowing gets tighter. Demand declines even further. The market will not rebound as has it done in the past.

It's the period of austerity and as corporate profits decline and lay-offs begin anew, the market will react negatively this go around cause the Fed has no ability to prop the Bond market which props the equity markets.

Short sellers and profit takers are having a ball.

[You all think Kelly O"Donnell has a stock ticker in her office? Maybe a TV?]

So, Schpanky...you liking you some of those DOW numbers, huh...is this where you stand on the issue, the collapse of the United States economy? You seem to want to make it perfectly clear to everyone where you stand on the issues, right Schpanky?

...counselor...? Anything? Anything at all? At least tell us you're not going to regurgitate ANOTHER "opinion" on this issue, or are you?

...anything...?

...Schpanky...?

...Bueller...?

Speak up, your clock is running...

.............let's blame it on the Teapublicans and George Bush! There ....now I feel better!....a little more spin...and all will be well.

Why not? Since Boehner said he got 98 percent of what he wanted and the Tea Party declared victory, why shouldn't they get the blame for the fallout?

We don't have to look back to Bush to see how this happened. The Tea Party owns this now, and a lame attempt at sarcasm can't cover for that.

Have to agree to disagree Ira. Although the slow collapse of Europe has been an issue for some time, it was just yesterday that two to of the big wigs in charge of preventing the collapse came out and admitted that it is far worse than they have lead people to believe.

In other words, it is hopeless. Greece, Spain, Protugal and likely Italy will fail, meaning teh Euro goes down. Meaning there are trillions in debt, both national and private that is lost.

I think here in American the market is reflecting what we all know to be true - we are in a double dip. Now which one of you wants to advise Carney and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz?

Well, hell. Wish we'd a put ALL our retirement eggs in the private sector basket, instad of that damned Social Security.

"It's the period of austerity and as corporate profits decline...."

Is that happening now, Ira? I thought corporate profits were through the ceiling in relation to the rest of the economy lately?

Oh, and when the market reaches rock-bottom, guess who will still have plenty of bucks to scoop up all the marbles?? Sure as hell isn't going to be some out-of-work FFA lackey....

Spanky..

With all due respect counselor, I disagree.

The IMF bailout was weeks ago and has been constantly monitored and there were none or at least very few surprises left for the IMF or Germany or any member of the EU.

It's been hopeless from the start and the debt ceiling debate exacerbated that situation.

Now, the IMF knows for sure that there will be no US dollars in a bailout.

Debt ceiling, no more US money...wallla...market crash and it's not even close to over.

What this goes to show, sadly, is you can't negotiate with terrorists. You must allow painful results, and then the Scumbaggers will be overwhelmed by constituents demanding their jobs back, or their Social Security checks, or access to services, etc.

(Ira -- "counselor"? You're too kind to a punk who couldn't litigate his way out of a paper bag.)

"...the stock market just dropped over 500 points today.....worst one day drop since 2008.....hope this isn't a reflection on Obama's economic policies..."

Aside from an entire post in bold, since Boehner got 98% of what he wanted, that means we are operating under Republican economic policies. And we have been operating under Republican policies since the dot-com bust in 2001, the Bush tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, the housing bust in 2007 and resulting economic melt-down in 2008, on into the Great Recession that followed in 2009 and extension of the Bush tax cuts, which is now going to double-dip.

Scumbaggers, you ignorant sluts, YOU are wrong--again. You are always wrong.

The real answer is the market never thought the debt ceiling wouldn't be lifted. The market never thought the US would default. The market knew a last minute deal would be made....and it was. It might have anticipated a credit rating downgrade but even a double-A rating beats the rating of most countries with enough liquidity to trade.

We've been in a correction for 2 weeks now. The jobless claim numbers and the ADP report were terrible. Everyone thinks tomorrow's non-farm payroll report is going to be horrible. The action of the European Union today topped off the week's bad news and sent stocks falling.

The economic policies of the last few years have done nothing to boost the economy and there's no hope on the horizon. Investors are disgusted, disgruntled and not happy. Unhappy people don't buy stocks.

That's what happened in the market today.

On a happy note, Treasuries soared. (Feisty - that means Mr. Cantor's tiny position in that ETF didn't make money today).

In the as bad as you think things are in the US category:

From FR:

The drought and famine in Somalia have killed more than 29,000 children under the age of 5, according to U.S. estimates, the first time such a precise death toll has been released related to the Horn of Africa crisis.

The United Nations has said previously that tens of thousands of people have died in the drought, the worst in Somalia in 60 years. The U.N. says 640,000 Somali children are acutely malnourished, a statistic that suggests the death toll of small children will rise.

Count your blessings.

Count our blessings, indeed.

Thank you for putting it all in perspective, Ira.

Now, if you would just put that into Greek.

Have a wonderful evening.

Anna Molly

Have a wonderful evening too...

Sniff, sniff, what this?

"scumbagger slut... couldn't litigate out of a paper bag."

Smells like desperation.

Awesome True Patriot. Please, whatever you do, keep ratcheting up the demagoguery. You wear it so very well. :)

Am and Ira - perspective is the key, as always. Big picture and all that.

Speak up, your clock is running...

Did I miss something Mickey?

Or has Skanky gone 'radio silent' when asked to back up his BS?

Even though I have him on ignore, it still shows that I'm ignoring that particular author...

Oh well - the things that make you go Hmmmmmm?

Yeah, uh, listen old gal, it just does not appear as though "ignore" means what you think it means.

It's ok, I know.

Spanky love, as bad case you have. I love you too Feisty. Our secret, this mutual love, eh?

[Did I miss something Mickey?]

Nope, didn't miss a thing...seems Schpanky is at a loss for words...or "opinions"...right Schpanky? He must have me on ignore...wonder why...all I'm trying to do is give him the opportunity to show he has some balls and stand up for himself...seems he can't even manage that. He just answers any questions directed to him with more questions.

I wonder why...empty suit, perhaps?

Nahh...he'd rather denigrate women and disabled veterans, right Schpanky?

He's actually more ball-less than I thought....I thought at least he'd stick up for himself, but he can't seem to manage even that...seems he can't debate himself out of a paper sack.

You just keep on.. keeping on Mickey - thlcyber bully deserves a smack on his a@@!

The problem is -- he more then likely enjoys it! ;o)

Like I said yesterday, I wouldn't touch his 'goat' with someone elses hand!

You tell em' Feisty. If Mickey and Feisty were on Facebook I would become a "fan" of theirs. ;o)

What's the deal with Schpanky-Wanky? He hidin' under the porch again? I read he was all taunting the Liberals to come out and fight earlier today.

Did he withdraw from the field? Probably got close to being caught on his boss's computer again, and had to scurry away somewhere.

Greg hon -- you wanted pics the other night -- hook up with me on FB!

Mighty FINE - indeed! ;o)

My e-mail addy is on the flip side! ;o)

["scumbagger slut... couldn't litigate out of a paper bag."]

Wow...you even spelled it correctly...must be how you sign your paycheck...

I usually try not to criticize ...You are all (most) F'd up! Just MAKING up someone to blame doesn't fix the problem it doesn't even make sense MORONS!

So all those procedural things that they cling to like sticklers... They can all be set aside that easily? What are they doing, voting from home? Makes me wanna holler. If it's that easy, cut the carp and get on with the rest of it!!!!!

Harry Reid and the Dems in the Senate created this mess this past February by adding in the union gift to help boost membership. Didn't work!

For putting people back to work? Seems the term "doofus" better suits the writer of that silly comment.

Amen Jody.

Harry Reid is a doofus.

Is this the part where someone chimes in with; it takes one to know one?

Or maybe, I know you are but what am I?

We're talking about American families here & that's the best you can come up with?

Good Grief!

You're a doofus. Autos don't have collars.

YOu are kidding right Gail?

Oh My!

Of course. Trying to lighten it up a little bit.

Harry Reid accepted the bill that the House gave him. He could have gotten it passed a while ago. He sat on it trying to get card check and subsidies for his hometown airport and you all tried to blame the GOP.

Jody, people never should have been out of work if this loser had done his job.

So yes, Harry Reid is a doofus. I don't have the same colorful. nasty language as you do Feisty, sorry about that.

The real story here is that the Dem's got rolled again by the House, but I bet you won't read that here at MSNBC.

Interesting point WCA [and gosh Gail, but if ever there was a day to be a bit glum] a poster earlier, I think job1 said that the House FAA bill was all about taking the FAA hostage.

So if Reid signed off on that bill, which is my understanding, wouldn't that make Reid a puppy loving, flower smelling, ever so sweet hostage taker?

Job1?

We are well aware of where your news comes from and why it won't be anywhere else. White collar you are getting whitewashed news.

Every bit of exciting news you guys come up with and I do a search and discover you given me not quite the whole story and one was even some guys made up site where he just threw out numbers and people were just to believe for some reason. None of the other reputable sites substantiated his claims.

Did Harry pass a bill that killed the unions or a clean bill like it said above in the beginning? The killing union bill was the one on his desk.

How do you know your sites a reputable? Because you say so?

America First- any spin on $14.5 trillion and counting? And dem plan to reduce spending?

How about the white houses projection of $43 trillion over the next ten years? That is the path to fiscal responsibility?

American First, I spin you not. :)

WCO:

[Harry Reid is a doofus.]

BWAAAK! What Schpanky said!

Only 4,000 were FAA workers; the rest were private construction workers and various subcontracting employees. The number was an estimate, the longer Congress delayed the re-authorization or temporary authorization, the number of private employees laid off would grow as each job began to lose its funding.

In other words - government accounting.

How else could 4,000 be counted as 74,000?

Bob Downer in raining on the parade.

[In other words - government accounting. How else could 4,000 be counted as 74,000?]

So, Schpanky...you want to tell that to the 70,000 construction workers that could have lost their jobs? Or are they just another body for you to step over...

...anything? Nothing...? Tell me you have an "opinion" on this, Schpanky...go on the record here and now...DOW down 500 pts...Schpanky thinks it "good"...74,000 Americans almost lose their jobs...Schpanky thinks it's gooder...but was horribly disappointed, right?

You're in the batter's box, Schpanky...you gonna take a swing, or stand there all day like a deer in the headlights and drool dripping from the corner of your mouth...

...that IS drool...isn't it...?

Are you implying that Harry lied?

x

74,000 turned out to be more like 28,000 with up to 11,000 secondary workers affected.

Guess all you Liberals will now say CNN tells lies about the Democrats and their policies like you love to claim FOX does.

Just another example of the Democratic message of fear and hate.......

According to Bloomberg, in their story about the FAA agreement reached today:

The Senate passed a $34.6 billion, two-year reauthorization measure in February without the labor provision.

Looks like the Democratic controlled Senate nixed the labor provision.

Charolet

Reid and the Senate Dems tried to change a labor law that has been in place for 75 years. This law was in place during the height of union power.....it does not prevent union formation. It made it fair and even......this past February Harry tried to slip in a change that would tilt the balance to the unions. 93% of union political donations go to the DNC.....Harry and Obama know an increase in union dues means an increase in donations. The Republicans in the House will nix the union deal this September

You said it, Gail.

Gail:

Agreed. Just another contrived crisis where one did not exist. Anti Union legislation has nothing to do with approving the FAA to do their job. Just the usually people using one issue to try and jam another down the throat of Americans.

Navy said,

Just the usually people using one issue to try and jam another down the throat of Americans

Yea those "usual people" who should have been working on jobs, job, jobs on 01/21/09 instead of social engineering the country into the current mess we are in. You mean like those "usual people" did with Obamacare? or Dodd-Frank? or all those other great bills/laws that we have to be thankful for? I just read and I believe the figure was 609 new regulations at a cost of 9.5 billion to regulate and that's just this July, just what the country needs more spending and growing of government. Remember the worse thing you could ever hear is that knock at your door and the person says "Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help"!!

Da-n if you would look around and see what's happening to the country instead of watching Lawrence O'Donnell, Rachel Maddcow or Chris Matthew's or reading/cutting/pasting "think progress" articles btw what kind of a name is that anyway? an oxymoron? like military intelligence or happily married, you know bat sh-t crazy stuff, but I digress, you would find out that the country doesn't like the policies of this administration, (the dow 500+ points down, unempolyment, housing, etc.) and part of the problem is leadership... you can't lead from behind or like Harry Reid's problem of just simply being an a-s. So don't come off all high and mighty about the "usually people trying to jam another down the throat of Amercians " unless you are willing to look in the mirror!!

True.....as long as know it was Harry Reid and the Democrats that caused the problem.......see 4.2 above

The deal reached today calls for the Senate to accept the bill the House already passed to extend the FAA’s authority through September 16.

They didn’t work together, JoAnn. They passed a month or so worth of funding bill so they can come back after recess and continue arguing with each other about the bill’s provisions. They are just “kicking the can” again so they can get on with their recess. Kicking the can is what Congress does best.

get a clue......the current labor law has been in place for 75 years. It does not prevent unionization it makes it a fair and even process. What Harry Reid tried to slip in this past Febrary tilts the favor to the unions. This is payback for not passing card-check. Reid and Obama know an increase in union dues is an increase in donations.

Ray LaHood deserves credit as well. He's been in front of any microphone he could find the last two weeks and he wasn't kind to Congress.

[So they saved $16.5 million in money to the FAA?]

It would have cost us somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.2 billion in lost tax revenues...

...Schpanky, am I right? Or do you like stepping over dollars to get to dimes...

...no "opinion"?

...Schpanky...?

Jesus H. Christ on a pop-sickle stick, Schpanky's schpeechless...

Mickey,

Why are you all up in spanky's kool-aid when you dont even know the flava. You need to chill before you pop a blood vessel.

Spanky I think you have a stalker or maybe Mickey just has a man crush....

Spanky I think you have a stalker

NOW that has to be the funniest post I've read all week!

Skanky has a 'stalker'?

Seriously?

The little misogynist ambulance chasing dude who gets off on stalking woman, veterans & river skanks!

LMFAO!

Thanks God - the *popcorns* done!

WHAT a country! lol

[Why are you all up in spanky's kool-aid when you dont even know the flava.]

Now THAT'S funny @!$%# right there...right Schpanky?

[Spanky I think you have a stalker or maybe Mickey just has a man crush....]

Well, like Schpanky says, it's only skin, right Schpanky?

"it would have cost us somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.2 billion in lost tax revenues.."

Who's us? Are you referring to the Government will lose 1.2 billion? Are you saying my money is your money? Interesting, I just bought a ticket and I still paid taxes on it. Sorry that you lost 1.2 billion though.

GOP---Crrraaaccckkk! Another home run! Liberals like you hit it out of the park all of the time. So let's see, do we have any response from from the Republican peanut gallery? That's funny, all I can hear is crickets.

Repubs told us the market/economy/employment was going to soar when we continued their Bush tax cuts. What happened?

Actually, GOPisex, the Republicans never said the economy was going to soar when the tax cuts were extended. They said raising taxes in a fragile economy is not a good idea. Many economists and even the Democrats agreed with this. Steny Hoyer (from your side) was quoted recently saying the exact same thing. The Democrats had their chance to raise taxes when they controlled the House, Senate and White House. But they didn't. Probably because raising taxes would have been a bad idea.

He said paying a higher tax doesn't mean your business will die. It just means you'll make a little less money. But YOU'LL STILL MAKE MONEY!

Do you understand how the businessman will still make money? He will raise the prices of his goods and services to be sure his profits are not squeezed. With incomes and wages lower and many people without income at all, do you think it would be a good idea to have price increases right now?

Your editorialized businessman claims nothing bothers him. That's great. I've heard many businessmen on the other side, however, say they are reluctant to move forward with the uncertainty of depreciation rules, tax rates, economic recovery, upcoming health care costs they're going to have to cough up and regulations.

Your businessman is in Michigan - maybe that booming economy and stellar reputation for business success gives him a little more confidence to take on risk.

Candice - you're breaking a cardinal rule... never ever make corrections to GOP's rants. Please don't inform him of the truth... you gotta take that real serious because if you try to correct him, he'll go into a funk. We can't have that happen because when he gets going, he's a riot to read. I've had many a guffaw from his uninformed posts and you gotta take that into consideration. Treat this place as a bastion of liberal comedy. No where on the planet will you find such an entertaining group of uninformed, opinionated, skewers of the truth than here. It wouldn't be so bad, but the idiots on the left actually believe their trash.

Brianb-

I know. What was I thinking?

Tom said:

do we have any response from from the Republican peanut gallery?

I guess I couldn't turn away from the challenge.

Thanks for the good advice. I haven't had much time to participate here in awhile, but I do enjoy your posts.

I enjoy your posts too Candice. So much low-hanging fruit.

raising taxes in a fragile economy is not a good idea. Many economists and even the Democrats agreed with this.

Really? Not this guy.

Tax Cuts: The B.S. and the Facts

By Larry Beinhart, AlterNet. Posted November 11, 2008.

That tax cuts stimulate the economy is taken as a matter of faith, but the brute facts suggest otherwise.

The Myth

Do tax cuts stimulate the economy?
Yes. Tax cuts allow people to keep more of their own money. Therefore, they have more to invest and spend into the economy, and they have more money to start business and create jobs, therefore also helping to stimulate the economy. -- Yahoo Answers
I think when people take a look back at this moment in our economic history, they'll r ecognize tax cuts work. They have made a difference. -- George W. Bush

The Realities
The brute facts are these:

• • Large income tax cuts are followed by a bubble and then a crash.
  • High income taxes correlate with economic growth.
  • Income tax increases are followed by economic growth.
  • Moderate income tax cuts are followed by a flat economy.
  • All of this is especially true as applied to the top tax rates, the amount paid on income that exceeds the highest bracket.

The Three Great Tax Cuts: Boom, Bubble, Crash

1. Hoover
During World War I, the top marginal tax rate went up to 73 percent -- not the highest ever, but pretty high.
In 1922, a series of rate cuts began. Down to 56 percent, 46 percent, and finally, in 1925, it went down to 25 percent.
The stock market took off. There was a boom. But the boom was a bubble.
It was followed by the Great Crash of 1929.
There were bank failures and the Great Depression.

2. Reagan
From Franklin Roosevelt's second term all the way through to Jimmy Carter -- from 1936 until 1982 -- the top rate was in the 70 to 92 percent range.
Then along came Reagan in 1981. In 1982, he cut that down to 50 percent.
The economy went into "the worst recession since the Great Depression."
His supporters argued that it was all Carter's fault and that the new policies would take time to work. The tax cuts stayed in place. In 1987, there was another round of tax cuts. They took the top rate down to 38.5 percent. It would stimulate the economy!
There was a boom. But it was a bubble.
Then, in October 1987, there was a crash -- the worst since '29. It was called Black Monday.
Much of the bubble money had gone into -- ohmigod! -- real estate.
Suddenly there were bank failures! More than during the Great Depression. There was a Savings & Loan crisis! There had to be a bailout.

3. Bush II
George Bush came into office with the healthiest, post powerful economy in American history.
He immediately cut taxes. The top marginal rate went down from 39 percent to 35 percent. He also cut capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes. A recession immediately ensued. But he persisted.
Eventually, the economy began to grow.
Employment didn't grow very much. Median income went down. The stock market was pretty flat. But the financial sector -- and only the sector -- grew.
Which should have made it obvious to someone, that it was … a bubble.
There was a crash.
Bank failures. A bailout.
The three worst economic disasters in American history follow the exact same pattern: tax cuts, boom, bubble, crash.

High Taxes Correlate with Strong Economic Growth
The four periods of greatest economic growth in American history, by pretty much any measure, are:

• • World War II (1941-45): top tax rate varied from 88 to 94 percent
  • Post-war under Truman and Eisenhower: top rate bounced around from 81 to 92 per cent
  • Clinton years: Clinton raised Bush's top rate of 31 percent to 37 percent and then to 39 percent
  • First two Roosevelt administrations (1933-40). When Roosevelt came into office, Hoover had already raised the tax rate in 1932 from 25 percent to 63 percent. Roosevelt raised it again in 1936 to 79 percent.

A lot of ink, sweat and ranting have gone into proving that the New Deal did not end the Great Depression. Nonetheless, the economy grew 58 percent from the time Roosevelt came into office and when the United States entered the war.
Some of that anti-New Deal rhetoric also claims that the recovery began under Hoover. Perhaps, but to say so is also to say that it began with tax hikes.
Likewise, many right-wing critics insist that the Clinton boom actually started under Bush the First. It is necessary to remember that Bush the First also raised taxes (from 28 percent to 31 percent) and was soundly thrashed by the conservatives for doing so. Stephen Moore of the Cato Institute called it "The Crime of the Century" and explained at length how it had brought ruin to America.

Tax Increases Are Followed by Economic Growth
Three of the four high-growth periods cited above followed significant tax hikes.
The fourth, the Truman-Eisenhower years, began with a top tax rate of 91 percent -- it couldn't get much higher.

Moderate Tax Increases Are Followed by Flat Growth
John F. Kennedy is generally credited with starting the tax cut craze.
He proposed it, but, as with all his ideas, it was Lyndon Johnson who actually got it enacted. The top rate was cut from 91 percent to 77 percent, then to 70 percent, on all income over $200,000 for a single person and over $400,000 for a married couple.
That's where it stayed, through Nixon, Ford and Carter.
The Dow Jones average was pretty much the same when that period ended as when it began. Median personal income stayed roughly the same.
These are the brute facts.
I call them that because there20doesn't appear to be any theory to explain them.
A noted conservative (a sane one, not William Kristol) recently wrote to me in a private e-mail exchange on this subject:
"I am unaware of any (or many) respectable economists (maybe I've missed some) who have suggested that higher taxes have proved to be a formula for better economic growth."
Actually, I am too.
Even now, in the midst of the Bush disaster, I constantly see and hear tax cuts, particularly at the top, described as "pro-growth." So I went and looked at the numbers -- tax rates, tax cuts and tax hikes -- and placed them alongside job growth, the Dow Jones, growth in the GDP and median income.
The brute facts say the opposite of the myth.
The belief in tax cuts is a subset of the belief in Free Markets, with a capital F & M, which is a theological belief.
How do we distinguish a theological idea from a scientific (or rational) one?
According to Karl Popper, the great thinkers in the philosophy of science, a scientific idea has to be capable of being refuted. There has to be some theoretical test that could come out the wrong way, which would then say the theory is wrong.
On that basis, Popper rejected Marxism and Freudianism, along with religious theology, because no matter how many times they didn't work, there was20always some explanation that said that the theory was right and if you just looked at the facts in some other way; you could make up some story that said your theory was still right.
The quintessence of theological thinking goes like this. The preacher says, "The world will end next Saturday night! The Bible says it must be so." Everyone in the congregation wakes up safe and sound on Sunday morning. They head off to church and believe whatever he says in that sermon, too.
In science, we come up with a hypothesis. Then we set up an experiment. We see what happens.
Economics is complex. It takes place in the real world where many factors are at play and we can't control for them all. Still, none of the major tax cuts since 1913 have led to significant, sustained growth. Two them were followed by instant recessions (Reagan and Bush), and three of them, when they were sustained, were followed by bubbles which were then followed by the three worst crashes and sets of bank failures in modern times.
It's time to throw out the theory, accept the facts, and come up with new ideas.

Your editorialized businessman claims nothing bothers him. That's great. I've heard many businessmen on the other side, however, say they are reluctant to move forward

No Candice. The businessman didn't say that. He just said it was idiot bait to claim that an increase in taxes is enough to make people not hire. It just means the 2% increase in taxes Obama was proposing means a business will make SLIGHTLY LESS. In other words, if I offered you $4,900 instead of $5,000,....would you still take the $4,900? So would I.

Your businessman is in Michigan - maybe that booming economy and stellar reputation for business success gives him a little more confidence to take on risk.

Thanks very much Candice. I see you DO read. Michigan is one of the leaders in job creation rate increase lately. An economist forecasts some 96,000 jobs this year, and 96,000 in the next to be added here. Of course, I don't know if recent news is going to cause a revision in that forecast after the second Republican Great Depression commences.

.....and thanks Tom. :o)

Jeez. Brianb was right. You've gone into a tizzy, GOPisex.

May I suggest GOPisex, that you forward your research to your Democratic legislators? They are ones who need convincing because it seems to me the only ones who think raising taxes in a fragile economy are truly you and the President.

Just for the record, I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes. I really wouldn't. If Congress would prove they would spend the money respectfully, responsibly and effectively. They have yet to show their ability to do so.

When tax rates were lowered across the board in mid-2003, the incentive effect kicked in to jump start the economy immediately. Over the next 4 ½ years, before the financial meltdown slammed the economy – and that was a credit event, not a fiscal one – 8.2 million jobs were created. Jobs essentially rose for about 50 consecutive months.

Nonfarm payrolls rose from just under 130 million to just over 138 million. While the jobs rose, the government took in more revenues. As a share of GDP, revenues rose from 16.2% to 18.5%.

Elsewhere, President Bush overspent and overregulated. The dollar collapsed. And from Fannie Mae to the Federal Reserve bubble was born. But the tax cuts? They worked. In the previous times you cited, tax cuts worked too.

You're right, though about your premise that booms are always followed by busts. The busts are generally caused by events -- not fiscal policy. We're in a bust right now. Wouldn't a boom be nice for the country?

Michigan is one of the leaders in job creation eh Greg, GOP? Now would that have to be from a political change there in Michigan? I tried looking up your author you posted and a Chrysler OutLook popped up. I think somehow you have it tied to your work e-mail. So, are you a Blue Collar guy or a White Collar guy? I'm thinking a Blue Collar type hence the man love for Obama. Now you wouldn't be on of those guys that were busted drinking and smoking pot during lunch were you? I heard the Unions protected those worker. Is that true and if it was, do you support such actions?

Jeez. Brianb was right. You've gone into a tizzy, GOPisex.

No Candice dear. No tizzy here. Just a girl trying to manufacture an artificial victory owing to her weak premise. I sense fear and desperation in you. I smell Connie blood in the water.

Your stats about wages are really fancy and nice, but they cowardly skirt around some brutal facts that even you can't avoid. That fact is summarized by this one single, simple question:

WHERE ARE THE JOBS? http://zfacts.com/p/286.html

If tax cuts for the rich produce jobs then where are they? Simple. Where is the rise in non-farm wages? Do you know what has been happening to America's wages since the repubs took over in 1980?

Bush tax cuts have been in place for ten years now, so the elegantly obvious question would have to be, where are the jobs?

Besides, wasn't Bush the guy with the Labor Secretary, Elaine Chow, who was trying to cook the job numbers? She was caught trying to reclassify burger flipping jobs as manufacturing jobs,...because,...wait for it,....burgers required assembly?

We are still living the effects of the Bush nightmare. What Clinton did to us was even worse. I would sooner take two more terms of Bush than one more month of Clinton.

TAX CUTS PRODUCE RICH REPUBLICANS,....BUT NO JOBS.

Michigan is one of the best welfare states. The unemployed,drug users,dead beats love Michigan they give more money to these people.

Fortunately time4, you find yourself on the wrong side of truth again.

Unfortunately, Michigan sends far more money to Washington than it gets back.

My tax money is used to prop up repubs like you in red states. Meth is the favorite indoor sport in red states. Rampant out-of-wedlock kids, higher divorce rates, teen pregnancy,...all help reinforce those "family values" so dearly held by you Connies.

You ought to change your moniker to "thetruthhurts". :o)

Just a friendly suggestion.

Wow GOP, no slam? oh well, your tax money goes were in Michigan? LOL, try again

they said the faa bill was stalled because the g.o.p.tagonist party wanted to eliminate unions in the air and rail industry....that was why they helded it up.. why did they cave because they would rather be on vacation....it passed faa extension 200 times since 2007 ...maybe reagan was right " government with republicans in it is the problem not the solution... i paraphrase... imagine if bush didn't win and gore followed the clinton example.....we wouldn't have a budget decf it was estimated by 2010 that we would have a surplus but then 8 years of bush and 2 years trying to clean up his mess. he didn't get his security deposit back on the economy did he... republicans are bad for business bad for the peace and bad for the people.....

marc huff--- Incredible isn't it?