Apparently some things will never change.

Spanky,

Just some numbers from the OMB based on March (first quarter actual).

That is before the $2.8 trillion in cuts mandated by the debt ceiling law. I have no clue how to factor these cuts into the calculus. Obviously, they will have a significant impact.

Based on an average Real GDP for the period 2011-2021 of 3%, which is not unreasonable, total revenue vs. total outlays as a percentage of GDP follow:

Outlays will be 24%

Revenues will be 21%

Adjust that for the debt ceiling reductions and public debt talks to follow and you may have a balanced budget.

Public Debt is not reduced…maybe a little…but that’s the OMB projection.

So your spending number is mostly offset by revenue according to the GDP.

Now go fight with with other FR’s…I need to get back to work.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/120xx/doc12039/SummaryforWeb.pdf

Yay - projects and fake numbers.

$14.5 and counting, that's a real number. $1.5 trillion deficit per year, again a real number.

Almost no libbies on this thread. A number that is very telling.

The problem can be solved, with a simple solution. Raise Revenue.

Spanky-

DUDE...fake?

C'mon, give me some credit...I do know how to read and interpret numbers!

It's not as dire as you make it sound.

Read it...go to the OMB site....factor in the debt reductions and it really is close to a balanced budget by 2021.

Granted....public debt is virtually not reduced according to the OMB which scores this crap.

Job1

The problem can be solved, with a simple solution. Raise Revenue.

Until there IS NO MORE REVENUE to raise... because the EVIL RICH PEOPLE have all left the country.

THEN what will you 'gimme my government handout' people do?

Not questioning you IRA, but the fact is we are headed in a downward spiral.

Plus it looks like GDP will go negative for the remainder of this year. Factor that in and we got big[ger] problems.

Oh and interest compounds, which on $14.5 trillion is one giant MOFO.

Until there IS NO MORE REVENUE to raise... because the EVIL RICH PEOPLE have all left the country.

THEN what will you 'gimme my government handout' people do?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sick,

This is one of the stupid comments that comes from the right with not one fact to back up such a dumb a$$ statement.

Spanky,

CBO, right now has us at an 8% negative spread between spending and revenues.

Clearly, not good.

That spread really starts to narrow by 2014 or so.

That's the OMB...not me.

Spanky: Oh and interest compounds, which on $14.5 trillion is one giant MOFO.

Not to worry. The Fed sets interest rates. Just got to find some sucker to buy our getting to be higher risk bonds at next to 0% interest.

"Greece has got somebody to bail it out. We don’t."..........well spoken.

It's scary out there. the uncertainty caused by this unnecessary ill timed and ill advised debt debate will make investors think twice just like we're witnessing at stock market today. A greater problem is that some players who are responsible for this ugly show are seeing this type of impasse as the beginning of a new dawn in US politics. Entrenching the attitude of destructing the flow if i don't get my way.

This is a very dangerous play at this feeble time in our economic slid of which the extent of damage already done is yet unknown. They are watching and ready to pounce. Legislators govern and not protest.

Business as usual, eh libbies?

No. Business as usual for you Connies Spanks.

You are the people who handed Obama a $12 trillion deficit.

Try being honest for a change.

Now Spanky will respond by ignoring my comment and asking me a rapid-fire selection of diverting and or misleading questions in 3....2....1......

Job1

Sick,

This is one of the stupid comments that comes from the right with not one fact to back up such a dumb a$$ statement.

You think so? Really? Let me say that in the history books I have read... people have fled economic repression since the beginning of time. When their governments get into their pockets too deep they bolt.

But then again... I believe the dumb a$$ statement that 'those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.'

So don't try to repeat the failed actions of the Hoover and W. Bush years.

GOP/Job1-This is from January 2009 from a Liberal website.

You are off a few Trillion there GOP.

When Bush was sworn in on January 20, 2001, the national debt was $5,727,776,738,304.64.

When "W" left office on January 20, 2009, the national debt was $10,626,877,048,913.08.

The growth in the national debt during his eight years in office: $4,899,100,310,608.44.

The average yearly growth in the national debt during Bush's presidency: $612,387,538,826.05.

So GOP/Job1, what's the debt now? 14.something? Obama added over 3 Trillion in less than 3 years!! Bush was bad, Obama is horrible.

Paul,

I have seen the actual real numbers and what you site is incorrect.

Cool Job 1 has secret numbers.

I feel much better.

Now if only he'd share them with us.

In the meantime, the Scumbagger GOP is trying to rig the debt commission with purists who will never compromise on anything -- Which is just piling more stupid on top of stupid. I'll never understand why they wouldn't want to increase the tax base by ending tax expenditures, since tax rates could then be reduced for everyone and still generate more revenue. If they are really about lowering tax rates, they should be all for this. This just shows the Scumbagger GOP is NOT interested in lower taxes or balancing the budget or job creation or any other positive effort on behalf of the American people.

I recommend people listen to Alan Simpson about the debt. In particular an investigation into Grover Norquist, and where his money is coming from. Who is financing Norquist?! Also, Simpson said that any Republican who signs a pledge is stupid, and even more stupid to allow an unelected individual like Norquist run the Party by threatening to "primary" them.

It's just one terrorist causing fear on behalf of a political agenda against another terrorist with a less severe political agenda. Wow, just wow. According to Simpson, such cowardly Republicans don't deserve to be elected and should get out of the way. Amen!

The OMB uses unrealistic growth numbers. Some as high as 6%. It also uses unknown sources of revenue in the way of tax hikes. It also takes for granted no wars or other unforeseen calamities.

Most economists project our debt to be increased by 7-10 trillion in the next decade. Hardly "balanced". Yeah us, and our children and grandchildren.

I would take everything coming from our govt with a grain of salt and a big shot of cheap whiskey. Serious reforms must be made before natural correction occurs.

So GOP/Job1, what's the debt now? 14.something? Obama added over 3 Trillion in less than 3 years!! Bush was bad, Obama is horrible.

No Paul.

You neglect (an oversight on your part I'm sure) to cite where (or whom) the sudden Obama expenditures come from.

Remember how Bush decided (he's the "decider" remember?) to take the two wars "off the books"? Well, the trillions of $$$ for those wars were ADDED to the books by Obama in the interest of full disclosure / transparency. In addition, the monies spent for the two stimulus programs were put on the books as well.

There's your $3 trillion pootsie,........AND ANOTHER RIGHT-WING DING-A-LING TALKING POINT BITES THE DUST!! Presto!! Obama had to add about $4 trillion dollars to his deficit clock even before he sat down in the Oval Office.

I've lost count how many times that one has been debunked on this site for low-information voters like Paul.

We should set up a counting clock for that one too.

[Yay - projects and fake numbers.]

So, Schpanky...they're fake because...?

...because...

...because...

...they aren't YOURS, right? You're STILL in the batter's box, toadie...you gonna swing or what?

Tell us you're not the empty suit you portray yourself as....

[Cool Job 1 has secret numbers. I feel much better. Now if only he'd share them with us.]

[Now if only he'd share them with us.]

[Now if only he'd share them with us.]

[Now if only he'd share them with us.]

Wow...unreal...Schpanky having the Chiclets to ask someone for proof...you can't possibly be that ignorant...can you...?

...so just what do you base YOUR opinions on, Schpanky?

[Now Spanky will respond by ignoring my comment and asking me a rapid-fire selection of diverting and or misleading questions in 3....2....1......]

GOP/E:

That is priceless...right on the money...

Thanks Mickey. You are more than a bit priceless yourself tonight.

Tearin' em' a new one buddy!!

Ok, GOP,you ask for a link, but you can't provide one yourself? If you can comprehend what I said, I said Bush was bad when it came to the debt, Obama is far worse. You're so damn brainwashed and everything Obama, you can't think outside the box. Of course that almost Trillion Dollar shovel ready job producing waste of money was put on the books. What was that called again? Yeah, the Summer of Recovery? How did that work out? How is the Summer of Recovery II working out?

I'm not Right-Wing or Left-Wing, that's why you're ignorant, my voting card says NPA, I'm not a sheep and follow the party line. I don't need a political party to tell me how to vote. I know people like you, my parents are just like you. I grew up in the very same area you're living now. Step back and think about the area you live in and how "behind" the times you really are? You people kept voting Jenny in, how did that work for you? Here's a shocker for you, before the last election there in Michigan, I voted about 50/50 R and D.

Bottom line, you know nothing about me, your views are so clouded and you drank the kool-aid. Funny you mention Obama and transparency, know that's comical.

That funny. So, Republicans don't get the same deal on flights? The Republican/Tea Terrorist Congress at its best. What a joke.

Anyone have a clue what Job1 is talking about? (What a joke)

SOTB: Anyone have a clue what Job1 is talking about?

I think he's just mumbling in his sleep.

He may be clueless, but at least he had the balls to comment on this thread.

His libbie brethren, no so much. And for very good reason.

I guess this topic has not been address over at ThinkProgress.

Maybe tomorrow?

Don't worry we are united.

LOL you are correct Spanky!

I never thought that I would say this .... but Where is Feisty or Bev when you need them?

(Not to mention those intellectual wannabe's like Navy, Clara, Pat, DBO and the whole gang...)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Job1

Don't worry we are united.

LOL! Yeah... United in their absence!

This intellectual wannabe is present and accounted for.

Fear index, anyone?

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/04/markets/vix_index_fear/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

If I were all of you, I would think twice about crowing over what is happening in the markets right now when John Boehner claims he got 98 percent of what he wanted.

I guess this one's on you.

I would think twice about crowing over what is happening in the markets right now when John Boehner claims he got 98 percent of what he wanted.

Eeewwwwwwwww! Ouch Anna!

That one's gonna' leave a mark.

One S*&T sandwich prepared especially for the American public by the republicans.

If you don't like the taste vote all democrats 2012

AM: If I were all of you, I would think twice about crowing over what is happening in the markets right now when John Boehner claims he got 98 percent of what he wanted.

Certainly the debt deal is in the mix of things, but the Market is much more worried about other factors than what is going on in the government. Things like a slowing GDP, rising unemployment (creates less demand), companies earnings reports not meeting expectations, and a housing market that continues to tank.

So continue to assign blame to those in Washington. Boehner at least tried to have the government chip in their 2 cents worth of slowing the borrow and spending habits of Washington to shore up the markets, and all he got was a promise to maybe do it later, if at all.

That's exactly what I would have expected you to say, JoAnna, from the very moment it became obvious that you can't blame this one on President Obama.

But let me remind you that, until this little bump in the road, timed suspiciously to coincide with the climax of the debt ceiling crisis, the trend in the market was mostly up this year, despite all those other things that you mention.

The fear index took a big jump just in the past two days. What do you supposed caused that? The debt crisis in Spain? Please.

It's just like my investment advisor trying to dissuade me from taking my money out of the market because "all we have to do is fix the interest rate situation in China," and we'll be on the way to recovery.

Indeed. I knew from that moment that I was making the right choice.

If your side is so smart, and Wall Street surely recognizes that they are, then what we SHOULD be having right now is a nice little "confidence" rally.

Just peeked again to make sure. Nope. Dow is currently down 338.

Anna Molly, the stock market was up thanks to the Fed. They are now coming to realize that, as I read today, the fed and Obama don't have any more ammo to keep propping it up. In other words, QE3 ain't gonna happen. That is one major reason that the Stock Market is tanking.

You can only artificially inflate the market for so long until it corrects itself.

Sounds like you acted accordingly prior to the correction.

I acted accordingly weeks and weeks ago, White Collar Auto, specifically because I saw this trainwreck coming.

And if the deal that gave Boehner 98 percent of what he wanted is so danged good, then why doesn't the market rally around their Republican saviors and show their confidence that we have turned the corner?

You already know the answer to that.

Dow is now down 359, meaning that we've already shaved just about the usual 10 percent and we're still declining. Tell me, what do you see in the debt ceiling bill that will bring the market back up again anytime soon?

This isn't your ordinary correction, White Collar. You know it, and now you own it.

The decline before the debt deal was fueled by fear of a default- this latest sell off is fueled by GDP, and the acknowledgement of a double dip recession, rising unemployment, and, yes, fears over Europe's debt crisis.

Nice try at holding Obama blameless. He owns the economy, so two legs of the stool are his.

I don't blame him for Europe, by the way. Everything else? Yup, that would be Obama's ineptitude rearing its ugly head again.

But AM, Debbie Schulz said yesterday the economy was improving.

One Bi-Partisan Debt ceiling vote and now the Republicans own this economic travesty? Good luck selling that one to the public. I know your gang here believe it, but they believe a lot of things that just aren't based in reality.

And yes it is more than your typical correction, because typically, the market doesn't get QE1, QE2, Stimulus 1 and Stimulus 2 to try to hold it up. The bigger the bubble, the louder the pop.

then why doesn't the market rally around their Republican saviors and show their confidence that we have turned the corner?

Funny how that has happened isn't it Anna? Repubs told us the market/economy/employment was going to soar when we continued their Bush tax cuts. What happened? A funny thing happened on the way to our republicant recovery. It didn't occur,....but the repubs still pocketed the moolah,....right? ;o) After all,....aren't they the "job creators"?

I have an editorial from a businessman here in Michigan. The guy said that if he hears one more repub talking head say that American business is sitting out this recovery because of uncertainty over Obama he'll puke. The businessman said that this is all just so much B.S. Even this guy called em' out.

He said paying a higher tax doesn't mean your business will die. It just means you'll make a little less money. But YOU'LL STILL MAKE MONEY!

Any businessman with a pair will invest to increase their volume. Anybody using Obama as a convenient scapegoat for 30 years of repub (no tariff enforcement, NAFTA, WTO, GATT, etc...) economic policy needs to turn in their big boy pants.

Little weenies like them don't have the stones to own and operate a business. Maybe they need to turn the keys over to someone with a bold vision, and a taste for success. Someone competent. Somebody tough enough.

Tough economic conditions didn't stop Henry Ford, Frederick Meijer, Horace Dodge or William Durant, ...and they didn't even have outsourcing, Cayman Islands bank accounts, offshoring or tax loopholes.

What's wrong with today's business Nancy Boys? They need it to be teed up for them before they hit it? Want us to take the fish off the hook for ya'? What's the matter,.....hmmmmm? No guts?

[He may be clueless, but at least he had the balls to comment on this thread.]

Unlike yourself, right Schpanky? You're the true empty suit, right? Or more like empty boxers? Or are you the true clueless one...only time will tell.

...nothing to enlighten us with? An "opinion", maybe?

...tick tock Schpanky...tick tock...

I don't know crap about the stock market - always seemed like gambling to me, and far too much risk to heavily invest in, but I do know this: AnnA Molly and I have played this one right.

IRA - it sucks, but at least the Europeans leaders are starting to come clean about just how doomed they are.

Makes you wonder when ours will. Or maybe I'm the only one stunned by the fact that we will spend $43 trillion in the next 10 years.

Insolvent and broke is no way to go through life. If you have kids or grand kids your head should have exploded already.

Yes, I'm interested, and also feeling a sort of perverse, grim sort of amusement, for reasons you already know.

Everyone just loves that debt ceiling deal!

Now, now, Ira. Nancy Pelosi told us that even though it was a bad deal, it's time to get over it and move on.

And, just like that, the Dow is moving.

Makes you wonder, other than AM, if any of the other regulars here have significant investments in the market.

I presume no, as they all tend to rail against the evils of Wall Street and "corporate greed."

Oh well, it is of small concern, as the light is now shinning brightly on the overall insolvency of the world.

Man are our children and grandchildren screwed.

Hard to figure Spankster since Europeans have been living under the U.S. defense umbrella for the last 60 years and of course we have been picking up their tab...Why is that??? That said, since much of our debt is "defense related," what say we establish a "sinking fund" (you do know what that is don't you?) breaking out ONLY the costs of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and sell War bonds (we sold 487 billion to ourselves thru 1945 in 1945 dollars) like we did in WWII and/or initiate a surtax so that everyone pays their fair share. How bout it Spankster?

Makes you wonder, other than AM, if any of the other regulars here have significant investments in the market.

I'm sure they do, Spanky. Almost everyone with a retirement account does. Movement away from defined benefit plans into contribution-type plans was the last great trick played on us by conservatives, back in the days when incomes actually grew for everyone.

Now, just imagine if we had privatized Social Security and put those funds in the market, too.

Anna Molly..

Now, just imagine if we had privatized Social Security and put those funds in the market.

You owe me a coffee...I spilled it after reading that.

After the crash when pensions and 401k's got wiped out and they were run by experts, can you imagine if ordinary folks had their SS funds in the market. Wipeout.

Social Security is an insurance policy and not an investment and should always be viewed and traeted as such.

Hey, Torpedo - I vote for your plan!

In fact, I recently posted a 'Vine column on the very same topic! Here it is:

http://langewinckler.newsvine.com/_news/2011/08/02/7231709-how-to-pay-off-debt-and-save-ss-medicare

Your screen name is interesting. Every time I spot it, into mind comes the Old Torpedo Facotry down at the end of King Street in Alexandria, VA. I surely do like that town.

Wars are fought with taxes.

I'm a huge fan of going with the old War Bond sales and the War Tax implementation as well.

Then we can see how long this country has the will to fight unwinnable wars in backcountry middle east with no discernable goal.

Social Security is an insurance policy and not an investment and should always be viewed and traeted as such.

Exactly! My 401k back in 2008 was more like a 201k!

Spanky,

I do not have significant investments in the market, but the health my profession depends heavily upon the performance of world financial markets.

Corporate jets are my passion and profession. Those who own them are notoriously fickle. Uncertainty makes them very nervous and often times this unease is reflected by reducing the use of, or getting rid of the Jet. Even tiny ripples in the markets, taxation, or even perception of such can create a tsunami in my business. Those of us who have been in this business for any amount of time have pretty long resumes....

Private jets are indeed a luxury, but it takes a lot of people to keep them flying. Flight crew, mechanics, ground support crew, caterers, ground transportation and support for all this, parts suppliers, component repair and overhaul facilities, specialized service suppliers, an army of administrative, sales, and financial personnel. When Mr. Big takes off a lot of people work.

Not to mention manufacturing - ask the people of Wichita, Kansas or Savannah, Georgia how critical it is to their respective communities orders for Citations and Gulfstreams keep rolling in. And suppliers of raw materials to those manufacturers.

Perhaps a bit off topic, but "corporate jet" is dropped frequently in this board and I wanted to weigh in.

After the crash when pensions and 401k's got wiped out and they were run by experts, can you imagine if ordinary folks had their SS funds in the market. Wipeout.

As opposed to ordinary folks having the government take care of their SS funds for them. Wipeout.

Okay, Ira. Mark my account for one coffee. And maybe some drycleaning. ;-)

If you enjoyed that, you will certainly enjoy this article about how young adults are struggling to find ways to finance having children in today's economy. Read all the way to the end. The last suggestion is every bit as good as investing in the stock market right now, I have to say.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/08/04/4-financial-tradeoffs-parents-are-making-for-their-families/

How sad it is that our own children are having to think in such grim calculations. This is not how it was all supposed to turn out.

JoAnna:

As opposed to ordinary folks having the government take care of their SS funds for them. Wipeout.

It wasn't the system that failed them. It was custodians. They failed all of us, and not just on this issue.

Al Gore, it turns out, was right.

Why no Torpedo - I'll do you one better.

End all the wars now. Either Nato pays for their protection or we pull out.

Simple, right? So why won't Obama end the wars?

By the way Libya was to be "days, not weeks." How many billion we in for on that little ditty?

Yo- AM the Calpers super fund out here absolutely sucks and is eating up billions of dollars every year. Gov. investment schemes are horrible.

JoAnnaSmith1..

Hey Joe...I'm at lunch....wanna have a discussion on how the SS trust got raided and by whom?

Why there's an IOU in the SS assets of $2.36 trillion?

Which administration imploded the economy?

John..Great Post on the vine. For my part, It was just a thought after doing some research on the War Bond drives of the 40's and trying to draw an analogy. The problem is that today no one has any "skin in the game." There are some stark differences between 1945 and 2011..Most notably that we were a creditor nation and that most of the money we borrowed was from ourselves in form of War Bonds and Savings stamps...Seems as though the conservatives want the middle class to carry the burden of current defense spending.

Yup :) It's why I don't like those guys.

They've gone to a war-for-profit mentality. I prefer the old-dem mentality of 'flatten their country and let god sort it out.' Much more FDR and Truman-esque. City of millions, and buildings made of wood and paper? Firebomb that bad-boy!

Sadly, modern libs are all about free-ride. Not opportunity. So I don't like them, either :)

End all the wars now.

Can't say I disagree at all Spanky. Wars are just pouring money down a giant rat hole. Trillions blown,...all for nothing.

This World Policeman business has taken its toll. Ask the former Soviet Union, former World Conqueror. Afghanistan bankrupted them too. Hell, Afghanistan bankrupted Alexander the Great as well.

A lot of our deficit was spent on this adventurism, and I don't care what treaties we signed, lets back out of them, stop these wars and focus on the good ol' U.S.A. for a change.

Which administration imploded the economy?

Not to mention the current collapse in the markets, both in anticipation of, and immediately after the debt ceiling bill ... the bill in which John Boehner claimed that he got 98 percent of what he wanted.

I guess it wasn't quite 98 percent of what the markets wanted, was it?

Conservatives think they're experts, but in reality, they're not.

Even I could see this coming.

Thanks to John Boehner's "98 percent solution," the Dow has now lost its entire gains for the year.

While you and JoAnna are having lunch, Ira, can I offer you both some delicious fear index:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/04/markets/vix_index_fear/index.htm?iid=HP_LN

Mmm mmm mmm, the taste of fear. Enjoy.

Ira: Hey Joe...I'm at lunch....wanna have a discussion on how the SS trust got raided and by whom?

So you agree that SS is a wipe-out regardless of if the government managed it or the individual invested (a small portion) of it. That's progress for you.

Now you've progressed and are interested in assigning blame. Have fun. That's the second step in the process - useless to perform - but a step nonetheless.

The third step is figuring out a solution. The GOP are talking entitlement reform. The Dems just demagogue the GOP for doing so.

Which administration imploded the economy?

DOW is down 291 for the day, so the current one apparently.

Anna Molly..

People don't think of the long-term cost of having and rearing a child when they start a family. It's supposed to be a joyous time....except for the sleep deprivation.

As the article states, add medical cost which are always rising, college costs which are always rising, essentials like food, shelter and clothing....all of it.

The American dream of owning a home has almost disappeared.

The realities of this new period of austerity will pose problems to "new" parents we never faced.

Add to that that when the Bush tax cuts expire, child care deductions drop and middle class taxes will rise.

Coffee is cheap...dry cleaning not so much in NY.

Makes you wonder, other than AM, if any of the other regulars here have significant investments in the market.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now Spanky, you are being a silly boy. Of course we have money in the market, and we are just as concerned about losing it like everyone else. I for one surely don't want to take a hit like we did in the W. Bush final year.

AM: It wasn't the system that failed them. It was custodians. They failed all of us, and not just on this issue.

We are making progress today. See, this bi-partisan stuff isn't hard. SS and Medicare are indeed insolvent. We can waste time assigning blame to one custodial party or another (it's actually both), and that would be an exercise in futility. Or we can attempt to fix it. We know what the GOP has for a solution for the Medicare issue, the Ryan FY2012 budget addressed that issue. So what's the Democrats plan?

JoAnnaSmith1

So you agree that SS is wipedout regardless of if the government managed it or the individual invested

No...SS wasn't wiped out by the market, it was wiped out when it was raided...by which administration? That"s why the $2.36 trillion IOU.

Has people been invested it would have been wiped out. Nice try.

Per my first response there is blame JoAnna...now Google who took the money out the SS Trust and put it in the General Fund. C'mon...look it up...just for fun.

Which administration imploded the economy and you tell me the market is down today. Wow, Jo...it was down to just over 6500 when George W was still in office.

Which administration imploded the economy Jo? Hint...the same folks that brought the Dow to 6500.

W

JoAnna:

So what's the Democrats plan?

You keep asking me that, even though you know I don't care a hill of beans about the democrats' plan, or no plan, or whatever you want to call it.

My own plan is to raise revenue and put the surplus back, which keeps SS solvent until the 2030s at current levels. Once the money is returned, then we start worrying abou t the long-term solution.

You may not like that plan, but it's guaranteed to work.

And Ryan's plan still bags. Sorry.

DOW is down 291 for the day, so the current one apparently.

Guess again, sweetheart. This is the fallout from the plan that Boehner says gives him 98 percent of what he wanted.

You own it now, JoAnna. Get used to it.

You own it now, JoAnna. Get used to it.

The ownership of economy is an amazing feat for Obama. Up until this week, Bush owned the economy. Now we get a bi-partisan bill signed by Obama to promise to cut spending, and all of sudden Boehner owns the economy. And Obama? Just an innocent lamb with no idea of what is going on.

I guess Obama will own the economy when it gets better, which means he'll never own it.

You keep asking me that, even though you know I don't care a hill of beans about the democrats' plan

How could you, there is none.

My own plan is to raise revenue and put the surplus back,

So when will the Democrats propose such a thing? Maybe get Obama to use that bully-pulpit of his to put out some specific ideas of his own on how that plan would work. And he signed legislation recently to cut tax revenue, correct? So maybe he isn't the right guy for the job.

AM -

Exactly right. The economy, employment, the whole bag is now dangling from GOP/TP hands. They snatched it up Aug. 2 in the manufactured crisis they caused.

BTW, I published a broad concept for a tax program that would repay SS and Medicare while also addressing the deficit and other components of national debt. It's at http://langewinckler.newsvine.com/_news/2011/08/02/7231709-how-to-pay-off-debt-and-save-ss-medicare .

can I offer you both some delicious fear index:

_______________________________________________

A little bit of advice from one of the Dems favorite billionaires, Warren Buffett, from October 2008. It applies just as well today:

A simple rule dictates my buying: Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful. And most certainly, fear is now widespread, gripping even seasoned investors. To be sure, investors are right to be wary of highly leveraged entities or businesses in weak competitive positions. But fears regarding the long-term prosperity of the nation’s many sound companies make no sense. These businesses will indeed suffer earnings hiccups, as they always have. But most major companies will be setting new profit records 5, 10 and 20 years from now.

Let me be clear on one point: I can’t predict the short-term movements of the stock market. I haven’t the faintest idea as to whether stocks will be higher or lower a month — or a year — from now. What is likely, however, is that the market will move higher, perhaps substantially so, well before either sentiment or the economy turns up. So if you wait for the robins, spring will be over.

So when will the Democrats propose such a thing?

I keep telling you, I'm not responsible for that, JoAnna. You WILL notice I wasn't so confident in democratic leadership that I held tight in the market, figuring that Obama would fix the debt crisis issue and everything would be all puppies and flowers, as Spanky likes to say.

So maybe he isn't the right guy for the job.

Maybe not, but it's now obvious -- even if it wasn't before -- that Boehner and his gang aren't up to it, either.

@ John A ~ Thank you for the link. I will definitely check that out.

@ Judge Joe:

So if you wait for the robins, spring will be over.

Point taken, for sure.

As for the market, I can afford to wait a bit because I haven't just lost 10 percent of my money. I can start back in whenever I want to without having to make it up.

Besides ... never mind the robins. I still haven't seen the waxwings.

And, Anna Molly, here's some reinforcement of your observations, from Nobel laureate economist Joseph E. Stiglitz. It's found on page 310 in the "Afterword" for the paperback edition of his 2010 book, Freefall: America, Free Markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy:

"Perhaps, in a few months, as financial markets see Washington gridlock in action - or as the United States pursues mindless deficit reductions that lead to a weakening economy - financial markets will wake up to these looming problems."

That was written around May or June of 2010.

DOW is down 291 for the day, so the current one apparently.

Guess again, sweetheart. This is the fallout from the plan that Boehner says gives him 98 percent of what he wanted.

_______________________________________________________________

AM: I'll give you an incomplete grade on that one. The debt ceiling bill , passed with overwhelming BIPARTISAN support in both houses of Congress and signed by the Dem President is likely a small factor in the current market downturn for some investors. The overwhelming factors in the market downturn are Europe's sovereign debt mess, Friday's dismal GDP report showing the economy moving at a crawl in the first half of 2011, dismal news on manufacturing on Tuesday, yesterday's drop in consumer spending report, and the likelyhood that tomorrow's jobs report will suck big-time.

At about 2 pm, the Dow was off 382 points. This is one of those days when I wish I could say Stiglitz was wrong.

I didn't say anything about bi-partisan support, Joe. I'm not a puppet for the administration, and I would have voted no, in addition to doing my best to stop this trainwreck. Don't try to blame this mess on me.

But democrats know they made a bad deal. Boehner is the one crowing about getting so much of what he wanted -- 98 percent, in fact -- and so is the Tea Party, like it's some great big victory ...

... but already you and JoAnna are both backing away from it, casting about for other things to blame.

What does that alone tell you?

And by the way, the reason the market is dropping right now, when it has been mostly up this year, based on everything that I've read over the past few days, is that the financial experts almost everywhere took one look at the debt ceiling bill and realized that it would NOT solve any of the problems you are mentioning. In short, the outlook was not up, but clearly down. I posted a few of those articles on Tuesday and Wednesday. I hope you took a little time to look at them and what some of the experts are saying about this deal.

In short, whatever was wrong before, the deal didn't help. Not one little bit. In fact, it may have tipped whatever balance was still left decidedly in the wrong direction.

That's the FEAR factor I mentioned above. And that's my only point.

As usual, Republicans own the fear.

JiA: AM: I'll give you an incomplete grade on that one.

I give her an "F". AM is one of many Liberals that doesn't hold the Democrats and Obama accountable for any of their actions, or lack thereof. She, and others, turn a blind eye to the failings of this President and her party. They are also quick to blame the GOP for everything. You see how quickly the Liberals transition from blaming Bush for the poor economy to blaming Boehner for the poor economy. And Obama? He's responsible for nothing, an innocent lamb with no responsibility for anything.

And why would Obama be responsible or accountable for anything - he's just the President of the United of States, it's not like he has anything to do with the condition of the country.

Anna Molly..

If you look at the market for the last 2 years, it has absorbed bad economic news over and over again and always rebounded. Same news as to slow growth, unemployment, deficits and debt and European crisis. Month after month...no change.

The only thing that has changed since August 1st is the passage of the debt ceiling bill. It's only cuts, no revenues, which will suck $2.8 trillion out of an economy that is retracting. People are reacting by taking their profits now before the market starts a more serious decline than we are seeing now. Interest rates will rise. Borrowing gets tighter. Demand declines even further. The market will not rebound as has it done in the past.

It's the period of austerity and as corporate profits decline and lay-offs begin anew, the market will react negatively this go around cause the Fed has no ability to prop the Bond market which props the equity markets.

Short sellers and profit takers are having a ball.

Spanky since the 2008 crash I saw coming and I then moved my 401k to guaranteed cash account and quit playing in the market as it is stacked against the regular person.

Currently my money still sits in guaranteed cash account and again I have lost nothing in this stock market game. I just get interest.

Stock market is like gambling, hard to get out when you are winning.

I would appear Bob that it will indeed take the outright failure of the PIIGS before over esteemed politicians get a clue and drastically cut spending.

In 10 years the debt [excluding interest] will increase $17 trillion or so, so the total will be over $30 Trillion.

Anyone want to calculate the debt service on that abomination?

In 10 years the debt [excluding interest] will increase $17 trillion or so, so the total will be over $30 Trillion.

Anyone want to calculate the debt service on that abomination?

Spanky, Spanky, Spanky...thats what the printing presses at the Fed are for.

It'll have to be "New Dollars" cause the old ones will soon be worth very little.

But I hear you.

Now, just imagine if we had privatized Social Security and put those funds in the market.

Yeah. Kinda nice that the "let's privatize everything" crowd is quiet as little church mice when the market blows up. Just like Bush ca. 2007,...."Ooooops,..never mind".

That's the way I like my repubbies. Nice and quiet.

Now, just imagine if we had privatized Social Security and put those funds in the market.

What funds? The President let the cat out of the bag. There are no funds. They have been spent.

Don't you remember when bush II was running against Gore and the republicans kept making fun of Gore for wanting to put the social security money in a lock box. It was there favorite joke, kinda like the monitor joke was.

Then after bush won, the republicans stole that money to pay for their wars and left I.O.U.'s. I know we are to have developed amnesia already about the bush years like the republicans have.

You bet. Boehner sucks, just slightly less than you average dems.

They are all politicians first, seeking to keep power.

Difference being the libbies want business as usual - more spending, more stimulus, more, more. If Pelosi were still speaker, you think we'd even be having this conversation?

Politics is what is is. Reality, that's a whole different matter. Ask the Greeks, Italians, and investors.

So Allen, just where are all the libbies on this thread? Is this the thread they dare not tread upon?

I don't know where the "libbies" are because I don't know what in the hell a libbie is.

I'll admit it was initially slightly refreshing to see you come at the issue as a Congressional issue since they hold the purse strings of the Government....but even with that you mention Speaker Pelosi, but don't mention Speaker Newt Gingrich or Speaker Dennis Hastert.

Your misplaced disdain for average dems or libbies clouds too much of everything else for you, IMO.

They are all bad Allen. All of them seek to obtain then hold power.

Libbies are worse, but not by too much, or do you think all this austerity was Obama's plan all along?

He always wanted to reduce spending, right?

Of course that is just ridiculous.

Your misplaced disdain for average dems or libbies clouds too much of everything else for you, IMO.

Here's some bi-partisan criticism for you, the "concession's the GOP got from Obama and the Dems were token at best. Deficit spending now, to the tune of $239 billion yesterday, with the "promise" of spending cuts later, or never.

The GOP, who hold one-third of the power, with the Senate and the Presidency holding the other two-thirds, were fortunate to get even that much. If Pelosi still ran the House, the topic of fiscal restraint would not have even come up.

Walker is correct - who bails us out? No one.

Job1, How in the world do we do that? Real unemployment is hovering around 16%...

Ignore Job1. His answer to everything is 'the government can do it.'

He is a man who, obviously, has never worked for the government in any capacity or he'd see how incompetent it is.

Some things need to be nationalized, I'll be the first to agree. But those things are of such a high magnitude that they're few and far between. Everything else, the gub-ment needs to step away from.

"A nation cannot tax itself to prosperity." - Winston Churchill.

Stop these crazy budget cuts, cut the tax loop holes for the super rich and bring back the Clinton area tax rates. The W plan failed. Wake up people.

Ok, I'm fine with that.

We should also go back to clinton-era government spending levels. maximize revenue, minimize cost. Right? That's the mantra of business, after all.

So...are you saying government SHOULD be run like a business, because failure to do so is now being shown to have disastrous side-effects in the real economic world?

Hey Job:

Until there IS NO MORE REVENUE to raise... because the EVIL RICH PEOPLE have all left the country.

THEN what will you 'gimme my government handout' people do?

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Sick,

This is one of the stupid comments that comes from the right with not one fact to back up such a dumb a$$ statement.

==========================================================

I can't post links... google "what happened to the millionaires tax in Maryland" and you can read that 1/3 of the millionaries disappeared.

Your favorite argument is tax more... you have to be aware of the statistics so what number or % do you think some or all of us should be taxed? Should everyone be taxed?

Here's the last part of the article:

The Maryland state revenue office says it's "way too early" to tell how many millionaires moved out of the state when the tax rates rose. But no one disputes that some rich filers did leave. It's easier than the redistributionists think. Christopher Summers, president of the Maryland Public Policy Institute, notes: "Marylanders with high incomes typically own second homes in tax friendlier states like Florida, Delaware, South Carolina and Virginia. So it's easy for them to change their residency."

All of this means that the burden of paying for bloated government in Annapolis will fall on the middle class. Thanks to the futility of soaking the rich, these working families will now pay Mr. O'Malley's "fair share."

Many people want like this, but everyone should pay their income taxes and not just the rich. If the tax system was made fair across the board, then the nation would prosper.

However, my pipe dream is to have everyone making a good living wage.

Krell,

Job1 has a pretty simple view of the world. He gets it from ThinkProgress. But it IS fun watching him flail around when he is called on the carpet.

I kind of feel sorry for him... what without Feisty and Bev to sling flaming arrows in his defense.

BTW... anyone know where those two gems might be?

I would rather get my facts from anywhere other than the FOX, Rush, Palin, Bachmann, Beck and the Bush's brain Rove talking points. Now, there is a class you can rely on for the facts.

Talk about loon tunes.

Sick,

After seeing them in action off-and-on regurgitating thinkprogress quotes and with little unique thoughts, I'm going to guess the welfare line. Or picking up food stamps. Or, basically, not holding a job.

teknishan

Sick,

After seeing them in action off-and-on regurgitating thinkprogress quotes and with little unique thoughts, I'm going to guess the welfare line. Or picking up food stamps. Or, basically, not holding a job.

BINGO!!!! We have a WINNER!

I just don't understand how you guys can rail and rail about the deficit and not want, no, demand, to raise more revenues! It just doesn't make sense.

After following the debate, I have come to realize that the government must shrink spending. I thought about the position, weighed it against my previously held prejudices, and came to a new conclusion. I see that spending needs to be reduced.

However, if the issue is a dire as you have brought me to beleive, then we should be doing everything to solve the issue. reform the entitlements (in a smart way that doesn't simply cut for cutting sake, but for targeted purposes that protect recipeints as much as possible) and raise revenue!

I don't remember a huge debate about "Taxes are too high" during the clinton rates. Businesses were flourishing and doing fine under those rates.

I don't care that Obama extended the cuts. I want them gone, and I have let him know....

Again, my point here is that if the debt / deficit situation is a dire as the GOP would have us believe, how CAN they, in good consious, not raise revenue as part of the solution?

teknishan

Sick,

After seeing them in action off-and-on regurgitating thinkprogress quotes and with little unique thoughts, I'm going to guess the welfare line. Or picking up food stamps. Or, basically, not holding a job.

BINGO!!!! We have a WINNER!

It's amazing at how out of touch these Republican/Tea Terrorist are as far as who has a job and who doesn't. The moment you disagree with any of them, they start pulling their stuck on stupid act and say someone who disagrees with them is on welfare or on food stamps or doesn't have a job.

The truth is the Republican/Tea Terrorists don't realize that welfare, food stamps or the unemployed situation hits people of all walks of life, and doesn't hit people according to their political views.

Of course the people that make the ridiculous statement aren't likely the brightest of the bunch. They most likely are people who just want what they can get and they don't give a Damm about others who have had a patch of bad luck.

It's also funny that President Obama has raised more money for his re-election than all of the Republicans put together. So, who is giving him all of this money? I can tell you it's not people who are in need of a job. I dough a single mom who is on welfare cares who the President is. All they know are they have to survive.

I just consider myself lucky because I have a nice home, a good paying job and money in the bank, and I do care about the people that are less fortunate and I support the President.

So, unless you know the facts about another person life, don't make such stupid statements.

I'm Independant, fella :) Not republican and certainly not tea-party. Lean a bit left, actually.

My presidential votes have been Gore, Kerry, Obama. But I don't swallow either platform whole, and I don't think anyone with any measure of rationality could.

But. Anyone who can get that riled up, like I've seen them both do, over words that some entitlement might get beat up...

feels entitled. And I've yet to meet someone who felt more entitled than a welfare recipient.

So I stand by my statement.

So true Soldier. Thanks

Forced to hit the streets in anarchy? Forced? What about personal responsibility, Democrat Soldier? Are you saying that we are basically all stimulus-driven lab-rat idiots that have no other alternative when confronted with difficult economic situations than to take to the streets in anarchy? Is that truth?

Maybe they should buy a Volt? They can plug their car in and charge it up, no gas. But then you might have Cap and Trade, that screws the energy companies that use coal to generate power and have to pay more for electricity. Geez, anyway you look at it, this Government pretty much screws you, don't you think?

Thank you for the civics lesson, Capt. Obvious!

The Rights view is let's keep dumbing down America with the Republican ideas that placed us in this mess. You can buy them the books and send them to school, but you can't make them learn.

And the Left's view is lets just keep giving as much as we can to the mindless drones... making them totally dependant upon our handouts... (essentially creating an entire country of slaves... slaves to the government 'cheese')

And why would the left do that... why for their vote of course! (you can't stay in power if you dont get the votes! - screw their freedom!)

Excellent, an inference has been made that I may be stupid. I am now officially part of the FR gang!!!!