It was interesting to watch some of the local reaction to the debt limit bill on TV news last night. They interviewed some local college students about a provision that would require graduate students to pay interest on their student loans prior to graduation, rather than having the interest added to loan principle like a sub-prime mortgage. They all responded with “WAAAAAAH!! WAAAAAAH!! Don’t take my govt. program bene’s away. WAAAAAAH!!” Not one of them even considered an answer like “Well, that will make things harder on me, but, America is the land of opportunity and I’m smart, I’m willing to work hard, and in the long run I will succeed.”

That’s why I’m ever more convinced that America is well on its way to a decline into a socialist mediocracy, just like former world powers Spain, France and England.

Happy Birthday Mr. President!!!

1961 was a very good year! ;o)

“It’s hard to imagine even the most embittered liberal choosing to vote for former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney

I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone brought this up!

Here's the answer in ONE word: PUMA!!

Remember all those disgruntled Hillary supporters who swore up & down they would never vote for him? lol

They interviewed some local college students about a provision that would require graduate students to pay interest on their student loans prior to graduation, rather than having the interest added to loan principle like a sub-prime mortgage. They all responded with “WAAAAAAH!! WAAAAAAH!! Don’t take my govt. program bene’s away. WAAAAAAH!!” Not one of them even considered an answer like “Well, that will make things harder on me, but, America is the land of opportunity and I’m smart, I’m willing to work hard, and in the long run I will succeed.”

Yeah, no, because college is a piece of cake, right?

There is no question they are going to play this “Hostage” gambit again.

It's never enough for blackmailers!

They're always coming back for more...

I asked this question yesterday, and the silence was deafening. I'll ask it again. The right-wing mantra included a chant about uncertainty. Golly gee, with all that uncertainty out there, why would the rich - I'm sorry, I meant "job-creators" - invest?

Now, the Republicans are claiming great success. The angels sing, parades are in the offing, and prosperity returns. BUT WAIT! Nothing is set in stone. All the nasty cuts haven't been made. They will be created by a - drum roll please - "SUPER COMMITTEE". Where the hell is the certainty? Nothing has been negotiated. Nothing!

When do people open their eyes and realize the Republicans lie. They prevaricate. They fabricate. They do not tell the truth. Where is the certainty and the jobs that will come with it?

Of course, if you close your eyes, if you ignore the question, if you collapse the post, the reality disappears, right?

There is no certainty. Come on Republicans. That's what life is all about. Can the crap.

GLORY DAYS

I had a friend was a big baseball player back in high school …….He could throw that speedball by ya, make you look like a fool

Ahhh ……. Big Bill.

Libs are always bringing up “The Clinton Glory Days” ……. How he could throw that tax raise speedball by ya, make a repub look like a fool …….

Funny ….. that mantra is more of a spitball than a fastball, completely deceitful and fraudulent.

Yea Clinton raised a few taxes, didn’t help much. But then he threw a change-up and dropped the capital gains taxes, the one that the evil rich, the ones that actually create jobs care about…….. The economy took off.

Funny how libs never mention that pitch.

Those that know nothing about baseball, fail to realize you have to have more than one pitch. Even the greatest spitball pitcher Gaylord Perry, (who after winning his 300^th win - famously put on a T-Shirt that read “300 Wins Is Nothing To Spit At” ) …….. even Hall of Famers ……. know they have to have other pitches and other help.

Same in economics, those that know nothing about it, fail to realize you have to have more than tax cuts / raises. Clinton was lucky. He had the repubs catching and managing the game…….they understood this.

Clinton wanted to throw the national healthcare pitch. The repubs shook it off and defeated it. Clinton wanted to throw a stimulus slider. The repubs defeated it. Clinton asked for his budget curve 5 TIMES before the repubs made him go with the balanced budget cutter.

Clinton also had a team that had the restraint to lay off the high spending ball, run support in the name of trade agreements, the team played strong defense up the middle and protected the value of the dollar.

Without all the above, the lefty Clinton would have been the equivalent of a one day call-up from the minors…….

Look at Obama …… almost the exact opposite of everything above…… the new lanky lefty throws a fat Obamacare pitch down the middle of the plate in the top of the first that puts us down 4 runs, throws 4 FinRef sliders in the dirt to load the bases again, slings a wild spending stimulus pitch over the backstop, hangs a curve on “Cash-for- Clunkers” day, gets a trade agreements tapper back to the mound and throws the ball into the union dug out, calls for the OE2 shift and leaves all the dollar bases open …….. gets a new tea party catcher that flashes 1 finger for the balanced budget speedball …….. and flings back the middle finger knuckle-ball.

The kid from Community Organizer Jr. College with a ½ season in the Senate Rookie League simply can’t play.…. the only ones still in the stands are the ones that heard it was free hot dog night …….

The kid does everything the opposite of what works …… the results are opposite too.

Instead of revenue at 19% of GDP under Clinton – Obama has 15%.

Instead of 31% growth under Clinton – less than 1% for this year under Obama.

Her and her husband bobby, well they split up, I guess it’s two years gone by ……..We just sit around talking about the old times, she says when she feels like crying she starts thinking ……… about Glory days

Yep……..And before libs have to cry about Obama’s utter failure they start singing ……

about Big Billy C.s ……. Glory days.

Oh well …. What else can they sing about …….. Bobblehead Barry ‘s …...Gory days?

Well said Navy: Don't have time to post today, but you said what needed to be said. Have a good day.

"The Senate on Tuesday overwhelmingly approved a plan to raise the federal debt limit and cut government spending, ending a bitter partisan stalemate that had threatened to plunge the nation into default and destabilize the world economy." So begins a story in today's WaPo, and so continues the bogus story line of impending default and destabilization of the world economy if the debt ceiling had not been raised. Bull$hit!

The real spectacle in the debt ceiling debate was the doom and gloomster fear mongering about an impending "default" on our debt. Fear mongering spewed by Obama and his cronies on the left, then spread far and wide by a sympathetic MSM. A sympathetic MSM that threw objectivity to the winds as it cranked out one story after another that supported the administration's dishonest characterization of what might actually happen if the debt ceiling were not raised.

At the end of the day, the MSM was aligned with the administration to perpetuate fear as a tool to solidify political support for their position in this debate. In tried and true fashion, they told the big lie over and over and over again until many if not most people accepted their tall tales as fact. That's why we didn't see more play given to more objective stories like these:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/exclusive/uncle-sam-pay-no-debt-deal-182942805.html

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43879039

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43884683

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43899646

On the bright side...

MSNBC senior political analyst Mark Halperin is back from his suspension.

The Tea party won this one? Why?, because it will help stall the economy? Or because we will lose 1.8 million jobs because of it? Or, is it because they hope our ruined economy will be blamed on President Obama and then Republicans win in 2012. I'll say it again. What a bunch of A..holes!

"We cannot fund anything close to the government's commitments if we don't raise taxes..."

So begins a piece by Ezra Klein in today's WaPo that makes the case for increasing taxes. His words capture the standard leftist position on this issue: don't even think about questioning the overly generous promises made by a profligate government over the years, think instead about squeezing more and more tax dollars from the folks to pay for those unsustainable promises.

This view is so patently obvious to the left that it's completely beyond dispute in their minds. These folks believe that the nation's wealth belongs to our entire society and an "enlightened" government is imbued with the power to determine how that wealth is allocated. If the benefits of their cherished welfare state are greater than tax revenues can support, well no problem just raise taxes. Thus the nation's wealth is redistributed by forcing some to pay their "fair share" in order that others can enjoy the fruits of someone else's labor.

That's their idea of a just and fair society and the notion of fixing our fiscal problem by cutting back on the giving just doesn't register. Fortunately there are those who oppose that view with all the vigor the left brings in support of it. Our debt has accumulated as a result of the spending choices made by the government, and until those spending choices become more disciplined this problem will remain with us. So Klein is right, we can't hope to fund anything close to the commitments government has made. But he and the left are wrong when they give short shrift to the spending side of the problem, and go into knee jerk raise taxes mode instead.

"We cannot fund anything close to the government's commitments if we don't raise taxes..."

So begins a piece by Ezra Klein in today's WaPo that makes the case for increasing taxes. His words capture the standard leftist position on this issue: don't even think about questioning the overly generous promises made by a profligate government over the years, think instead about squeezing more and more tax dollars from the folks to pay for those unsustainable promises.

This view is so patently obvious to the left that it's completely beyond dispute in their minds. These folks believe that the nation's wealth belongs to our entire society and an "enlightened" government is imbued with the power to determine how that wealth is allocated. If the benefits of their cherished welfare state are greater than tax revenues can support, well no problem just raise taxes. Thus the nation's wealth is redistributed by forcing some to pay their "fair share" in order that others can enjoy the fruits of someone else's labor.

That's their idea of a just and fair society and the notion of fixing our fiscal problem by cutting back on the giving just doesn't register. Fortunately there are those who oppose that view with all the vigor the left brings in support of it. Our debt has accumulated as a result of the spending choices made by the government, and until those spending choices become more disciplined this problem will remain with us. So Klein is right, we can't hope to fund anything close to the commitments government has made. But he and the left are wrong when they give short shrift to the spending side of the problem, and go into knee jerk raise taxes mode instead.

Victory Laps. Neither side should be taking a victory lap. President Obama did not but the GOPTP certainly declared victory and then promptly paraded off to a 5-week vacation. The media portrays our President as ceding ground to republicans but what exactly did republicans win here?

The GOPTP self-inflicted crisis angered voters. They ignored voters wishes for a balanced approach with both spending cuts and revenue increases. They failed to recognize that they represent ALL the people not just their party's base (President Obama understands he is President of everyone). They dismissed voters as less important than the Pledge they signed to Grover Nordquist. They proved they are not serious about deficit and debt reduction--serious people consider both sides of the equation.

The GOPTP won responsibility for the economy as it likely slips back into recession because of their demand for Hoover-nomics--spending cuts too quickly. They won the right to claim victory that the stock market tanked this week--not because of the debt ceiling but because even Wall Street understands that excessive spending cuts now will only mean a slower economy and more job losses. The GOPTP will own the economy because John Boehner said on tape that he got 98% of what he wanted! Then he and his colleagues went home, their work is done. Those jobs can wait, the FAA partial shutdown and its resulting job losses is no big deal.

What else did the GOPTP win? The only thing in this legislation that cannot be changed by future Congresses is raising the debt ceiling because that is for money owed based on previous approved budgets plus the interest to maintain that debt. The rest is a "promise" on paper based on unknown future budgets, unknown future revenues, unknown future spending or to use a Rumsfeld-ism--based on unknown unknowns.

The GOPTP won a paper promise worth only the paper on which it is written. They declared a victory but it is a hollow one. Why haven't any of the critics, the analysts, the chattering class mentioned that?

Watching MSNBC and it looks like the DOW may open up today. 114,000 new jobs created (ADP Numbers) - not great we need at least 2X that to move the economy forward, and the "private sector" has added jobs for the 20+consecutive months - so says MSNBC.

No need for the double post Mr. Me First Bill - it wasn't tolerable the first time around! ;o)

Dave Walker:

Nice post again. I read you every day. I think this "Super Commission" they keep talking about will be the "Impotent Commission". Both sides are going to stack the deck and this thing will become a "road block" to moving the country forward. We will see DRACONIAN cuts on both sides as per the trigger and Americans again will suffer. This opens the door for more "Hostage" taking - period.

Not a good idea by a long shot.

"By 32-to-28, members of the Tea Party Caucus voted for the bill..."

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/what-the-white-house-left-on-the-table/

So is the contention that those thirty-two steamrolled the entire congress? They were pretty much split down the middle...this is the boogeyman?

Tom:

Good point. Thanks

The only thing in this legislation that cannot be changed by future Congresses is raising the debt ceiling because that is for money owed based on previous approved budgets plus the interest to maintain that debt.

______________________________________

Jody: I'll ask you the same question I have asked here in the past with no responses:

Are you saying none of the $2.4 trillion increase in the debt ceiling through 2013 will be used to fund the $1-1.5 trillion in deficit spending that will surely be in the yet-to-be-adopted 2011-12 federal budget for the fiscal year beginning October 1, 2011 (i.e. "future spending")?

And, if you say that is correct, then tell FR how will the 2011-12 deficit spending be paid for?

I look forward to your response.

Time for Obama to get back to what he does best: Fund raising and campaigning.

But we still need a FY2012 budget from you and your Democrats Barry. You might want to work the weekend on getting one so we don't see yet another crisis because you're late again getting your homework done.

Excellent post Navy. Keep it up.

I can't wait for the obstructionists to lose 50% of the DOD budget with their arrogance and "hostage" taking. All hail the Tealiban.

Jody, you nailed it. The GOP/TP now owns the economy, unemployment, and a long list of other issues.

The House adjourned yesterday for 5 weeks - leaving 4,000 FAA employees furloughed, at least 70,000 private contractors' employees off the job, and abandoning at least $1 billion in air travel taxes and fees.

Under Boehner, the House operates like a gathering of privileged executives at Northern California's Bohemian Grove - three weeks on and one off, each and every month. The idea of actually working does not comport with the above-all-that-low-class-stuff that afflicts the smug GOP. And what's really fascinating is that this is the party that sneers at America's real workers, the working poor and lower-middle-class people they incorrectly accuse of sucking on the public teat.

There are going to be some town hall meetings in the various districts, indeed - and a large, large number of us are mobilizing to let the GOP/TP crew know what we think of their work ethics, their focus on jobs and the economy, and their stellar records of legislative achievements. They were sent to the Hill last November mainly to address jobs, the economy, and excessive partisan wrangling in Washington - not the debt and deficit.

Well, the GOP/TP betrayed the public trust. And we intend to tell them so, loud and clear!

Jody:

Excellent analysis. The system is broken and the GOP/TP continues to be the problem instead of working with President Obama to move this country forward.

The biggest problem I have with my President is that he trusted the GOP/TP to do the right thing. He put everything on the table DOD, Entitlements, Tax Reform, Spending Cuts, etc including his political career (look what it has done to his numbers). He said that he was willing to do that to help this country. What did he get, again, nothing really. What did the GOP/TP sacrifice - nothing. Boehner said they won 98% of what they wanted.

There are going to be some town hall meetings in the various districts, indeed - and a large, large number of us are mobilizing to let the GOP/TP crew know what we think of their work ethics, their focus on jobs and the economy, and their stellar records of legislative achievements.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

So you are suggesting there will be a reprise of the ugly, ugly, Town hall meetings from 2009, with the angry disruptive left replacing the angry disruptive right?

No, Joe, that's NOT what I said. As to why I don't answer you, I probably have moved beyond the first group of postings to discuss other things I find interesting.

I said "future Congresses", not the current Congress. The current Congress is in office through 2012. There will be negotiations on spending in the 2012 budget debate. The spending cuts agreed to in the debt ceiling deal is for $21 billion in cuts in 2012, the remainder in the outyears. The Super Commission will be negotiating for additional cuts in the "outyears", not the upcoming 2012 budget year. It is the outyears that I say the GOPTP won a paper promise.

Jody, you nailed it. The GOP/TP now owns the economy, unemployment, and a long list of other issues.

Obama campagin bumpersticker #1 for 2012: "Vote for Me, I'm not Responsible"

Obama campagin bumpersticker #2 for 2012: "I Need 4 More Years to Blame Others"

Jody: Your analysis is spot-on. Well thought out. Very well done.

The mighty Tea Party Caucus.

60 members in a 435-member legislative body.

The House Progressive Caucus has nearly 80 voting members.

Go figure.

Bryan E:

Thank you for the kind words. I read everyone of our posts and they are right on - Kudos.

The thing that scares me is the radicals were prepared to trash the United States and Europe/Asia for their own political gain over a contrived (made up) crisis on the Debt Ceiling. I do not think threat of letting the DOD take a big hit will be enough to stop them. They did not care about the DOD during the Debt Ceiling fiasco so why would they care later. They were ready to let our Military go unpaid and still get shot at, wounded and killed. It did not bother them then. They were not concern with Veterans losing Health Care, Pensions, Disability Pay, etc.

I hope this may be enough to make them think twice but I am not going to hold my breath. Their past deeds make me believe they just will not care about the carnage and damage they do. They will do it again to kiss the butts of their handlers.

David Walker

You know as well as anyone that what was passed to raise the debt was pure BS. But it was the only thing that would get by prince Harry. You want to talk about liars, prince Harry is the biggest liar in the Senate. He fits right in with our President in that category. The uncertainty in this country is because of this administration and you know it.

Ron:

Thank you for the kind words and talk to you later. Take care and have a great day.

David Walker said:

Now, the Republicans are claiming great success. The angels sing, parades are in the offing, and prosperity returns. BUT WAIT! Nothing is set in stone. All the nasty cuts haven't been made. They will be created by a - drum roll please - "SUPER COMMITTEE". Where the hell is the certainty? Nothing has been negotiated. Nothing!

When do people open their eyes and realize the Republicans lie. They prevaricate. They fabricate. They do not tell the truth. Where is the certainty and the jobs that will come with it?

David, I don't think the republicans are claiming great success. In fact, for as much as all sides think they won in this deal, the reality is, the American people lost. Each side is posturing for victory. As you stand on the left, you view the right with squinted eyes, trying to focus in on what you feel is their weak spots. Since I am an independent, I stand in the middle and view both sides with equal liability. From my vantage point, I believe BOTH sides lie, cheat and pander to their own crowds.

When I come across someone, such as you, blaming the other side and pointing your finger at them, I must remind you that while one finger is extended, three are pointing right back at you.

The problem for the Ezra Kleins and posters on this board, Bill, is that they are just 21% of the population of this country. They seem not to understand that.

Most people understand the inherent unfairness of demanding their neighbors provide them with food, shelter, and entertainment.not so liberals- they seem to believe that it is perfectly acceptable to steal from those they deem "rich" in order to provide themselves with the benefits to which they feel entitled. To them, it goes without saying that they are entitled to food, shelter, college tuition- all at someone else's expense.

Challenge their belief in the Santa Claus of government and they hurl vitriol. They are affronted that you even question their entitlement.

My niece was lamenting the failure of the Obama administration- it was the vacation to Rio that did it, when he had just launched an attack on Libya-and bemoaning the fact that she had once thought how proud she would be to tell her future children about the role she played in his election.

I reminded her that I had campaigned for Carter- whose failures seem minimal when compared with Obama's, and who was certainly not corrupt- and told her that she would, indeed, tell the story.

It would be a cautionary tale about throwing your support behind a politician who spoke without really saying anything, creating a Messianic aura that prevented the Fourth Estate from doing its job, and promised to be all things to all people.

What I will always remember about the debt ceiling crisis was when Cantor leaked the comment President Obama made that he would risk his job approval to do the right thing.

During this whole ordeal, Republicans played to their right-wing base, and never once considered what the right thing for the country might be.

Joanna - Those are mighty fine bumperstickers... made me laugh... but the truth often does.

Jody:

They never change. Either their reading skills are very suspect or they just lie through their teeth. Either one not good.

They constantly try to say we said things we did not thinking it will go unnoticed. When caught they change the subject and never admit they lied.

This is what happens when you are in a Party full of radicals that have no new ideas, the ones they have are proven failures and their only goal is to bet against this country hoping to make some money on our failure as a Nation.

What makes me mad is they think these ideologies are "American Values" - theyare not, not by a long shot. I do not know what they are but American - I think not.

The left's analysis of all this on here is a prime example that 50 percent of the people graduated in the bottom half of their class LOL. What lame analysis and conjectures. Quick to blame but hardly ever to take responsibility.

no jo - While the liberals may comprise 21% of the population, you have to double that figure since their egos are twice the size of most people. Add to that the arrogance factor of 50%. Then you have to add another 25% for their insistence that they are always correct in every avenue of life. Let's see how the math adds up for them.

21% x 2 = 42% x 1.5 = 63% x 1.25 = 78.75%

No wonder they feel they are the majority of Americans...

Happy Birthday, Mr. President.

I know it’s been a tough ride for you and the Nation since you took up the fight to do what’s best for the people of the United States. Considering that you inherited an economy that was on the brink of total disaster, your efforts have prevented a total melt down.

We have to remember that the Republicans-Tea Terrorist, along with big donors such as the Koch Brothers are the number one contributors to this country’s problems and their main goal has been to stop you, Mr. President and see you fail, by trying to de-rail all of your efforts.

In my heart and soul I know that you, Mr. President are a great and caring person, who is trying to do your best for us all.

We will continue to show you support and send a message to the Republicans-Tea Terrorist, that their efforts to block you from doing what’s right for the benefit of the nation, such as raising revenues and helping the poor and middle class, is not going to stop you.

We all know that these terrorist actions and game playing is hurting us all and they the terrorist, are not going to get away with it.

Again, Happy Birthday Sir, and may your 50^th bring on the best fight of you life, and your new fight and message to the Republicans-Tea Terrorist be, “Bring it On.”

Brianb:

None other than Speaker of the House John Boehner said they got 98% of what they wanted. That sure sounds like a successful negotiation to me. So, I'm going to say you're wrong on that one.

Are the American people the losers? Yup! I couldn't agree with you more.

@David -- you are right about the losers because it wasn't 100 percent of what the Speaker wanted.

Happy birthday?????? This may make me rethink my opposition to abortion.

Conservatives are mighty pleased with the changes they required before paying the bills Congress already incurred. They're excited about the chance to do it again. They believe THIS was the change needed to set the economy straight--massive cuts in the budget with little regard for programs and services coupled with no increase in revenue.

The Dow was down 260pts yesterday to close below 12,000 for the first time in months with foreign markets down sharply overnight. Where are the Conservatives crowing about THAT result?

The market doesnt seem to think the debt deal is 'over.' Dow is down (9th straight day) and commodities are soaring.

S&P and the traders want less debt. Moodys is the only one satisfied by 2.1 trillion.

Barry and the boys better get around to reducing another 2 trillion, or things are going to get worse.

Pat, Boston brought up Pat Buchanon's racist remark on Al Sharpton's show last night.

Which I find to be indefensible...

After, I went & looked up the entire context of his comment, I think it's time MSNBC gives this old goat a permanent 'time out'!

"And let me tell you, your boy, Barack Obama, caved in on it in 2010 and he'll cave in on it again," he said. Sharpton looked shocked.

"My what? My president Barack Obama? What did you say?" he asked. "He's your boy in the ring, he's your fighter," Buchanan responded.

"He's nobody's boy," Sharpton thundered back. "He's your president and he's our president. And that's what y'all have got to get through your head

Pat has somehow managed to survive well past his expiration date!

Contact MSNBC and tell them ENOUGH!

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msnbc.msn.com%2Fid%2F3303518%2F&ei=5Vs5TtWKD-nHsQLn1PD5Dw&usg=AFQjCNGoTHwBQ8NejLMz7JIF7ZVpsMokuA

The Dow was down 260pts yesterday to close below 12,000 for the first time in months with foreign markets down sharply overnight. Where are the Conservatives crowing about THAT result?

What we're crowing for is 4 trillion in cuts and/or increased corporate taxes. We want a deal that meets what Standard and Poors asked for. Well, thats what common sense conservatives are asking for. Not what the one-track tea partiers and whiney cry baby liberals are asking for.

Our GOPTP contingent here on FR can't seem to agree whether the TP contingent is too small to force dramatic change upon the budget and therefore not responsible for the economy or if they're the majority and rightfully forced their change upon the nation.

The one thing they DON'T want to do is take responsibility now that those changes have been enacted into law.

Ultimately this isn't about controlling a majority of the house of Congress that controls the purse strings, it's about being right or wrong. In the eyes of the markets, in the eyes of virtually all qualified economists, in the eyes of the majority of Americans (21% approval), and even within the confines of their own "uncertainty" argument Conservatives are wrong.

The GOPTP owns the results. The fact that they're already trying to walk away from responsibility is telling.

Jeff, if you think S&P demanded $4T in deficit cuts you're going to have to put up the proof. It didn't happen.

Feisty, I saw a separate story on that, and was astounded at it. Buchananis a worn-out piece of garbage, as is his equally-repulsive sister, Bay.

People just don't realize sometimes that their attitudes slip out. Years ago, I was running a campaign for a Black Congressional candidate in California. We joined a rally in a park one evening, headlined by one of the state's most influential and legendary state legislators. The star of the evening invited my candidate up to the back of a flatbed truck serving as the evening's stage, and introduced him to the crowd by saying, "Folks, here's another one we've just got to vote for! He's our boy!"

"WHO YOU CALLING 'BOY'?" roared an audience member.

Job

I know it's been a tough ride for you and the Nation since you took up the fight to do what's best for the people of the United States.

Shutting down the energy industry, killing tens of thousands of jobs, $4 a gallon of gas ....... is what is best for the people of the United States?

Considering that you inherited an economy that was on the brink of total disaster, your efforts have prevented a total melt down.

Pretty ignorant statement. The recession ended in june of 2009 - before he had even addressed the economy. He had passed ObamaCare that dropped HIS OWN job numbers 90%!

The peak of the recession was September 2008. The Dow yesterday reched the worst streak since OCTOBER 2008. Yea ........ Happy Birthday Mr. President

We have to remember that the Republicans-Tea Terrorist, along with big donors such as the Koch Brothers are the number one contributors to this country's problems and their main goal has been to stop you, Mr. President and see you fail, by trying to de-rail all of your efforts.

The Tea Party represents 1/7th of 1/3 of the government and Obama can't handle them.

Thanks for the birthday chuckle.

In my heart and soul I know that you, Mr. President are a great and caring person,

Yea .... he is a great campaigner and he does deeply care about Obama.

We will continue to show you support and send a message to the Republicans-Tea Terrorist,

You are an absolute pathetic moron. Suggesting that we not spend more than we have ... is terrorism?

Are the Americans that elected the Tea Terrorists ........ terrorists?

Again, Happy Birthday Sir, and may your 50^th bring on the best fight of you life, and your new fight and message to the Republicans-Tea Terrorist be, "Bring it On."

Don't worry Jackass - We are coming.

David - Boehner is a blowhard. He sold out on this deal. I'm of the contention that they should have included the elimination of some tax credits for corporations. This would have added some revenue to the deal, making it a bit more bipartisan.

I do understand why the Tea Party was against any increase in revenue. They were making a point that any increase in revenue would only feed the beast. It's not that they are against increases in revenue, but in order to make a point that the government is out of control, they held fast on it this go round. I believe the point they were making was overblown and taken out of context. This is why they were labeled radicals by the establishment and terrorists by the Vice President (Mr. Idiot Moron)... Sorry I don't have any respect for Biden... I think the man is a walking verbal black hole.

Navy, can you explain these "DRACONIAN" spending cuts? I know that you read that somewhere as part of the progressive talking points but can you spell out what possible spending cuts could be draconian. Do you mean that we might reduce defense spending? I thought you wanted that. Do you mean that the rate of growth on discretionary spending that has grown 80% since Obama took office might actually grow at the rate of inflation or revenue growth? Thats even though no review of actually reducing spending in absolute dollars to eliminate waste is even considered. Do you mean revising medicare or social security entitlements in which we are providing 3 dollars to every 1 dollar contributed to current seniors and soon to be baby boomers who hold 80% of the wealth in this country? So you have no problem with wealth transfers from the young to the rich old I see. What draconian spending cuts are you seeing in the future because when you use that word, I would think you would know what your talking about.

As for jobs, I assume when your upset that there are 4000 furloughed FAA employees you were also upset at all the jobs lost or exported overseas when the offshore drilling moratorium wasnt lifted by Obama right?

As for the stock market, you realize its down because the economy continues to move in double dip recession territory nothing to do with the debt ceiling debate but I am sure you think thats Bush's fault or the house's fault certainly not the policies of Pelosi, Reid and Obama.

Presidential elections are a choice between two candidates. In 2008 it seemed pretty obvious which was the better choice. We had 7 years of wars with no end in site and a candidate on the right who campaigned on more of the same, and perhaps further conflict (thinking Iran here). The candidate on the left claimed we would "be as careful getting out of Iraq as we were careless getting in". On economic policy we were again promised that the Bush tax rates would be made permanent as this was the main driver of the deficit versus a monolithic promise from all parts of the Democratic party that they would be ended.

In NJ it is not really worth voting in the Presidential election because of the electoral college, and so with the choices in 2008 and the fact that the obvious choice for change would be elected I did not vote.

Now we have 3 wars and maybe 3 or more hotspots where the military are engaged in lethal action. The Bush tax rates are still in effect, the deficit for all this talk of $2T in cuts is still effectively out of control. What we do have is a brand new entitlement, as big as Medicare-D, that is seriously underfunded even after $1T in new taxes.

Little did I know in 2008 that if John McCain had been elected so little would be different.

The Tea Party is making an impact. Good impact? That is up for debate.

I think the rest of us need to band together. Maybe call it the Optimist Party or something.

Let's examine why the Tea Party is successful:

1) Everyone is angry right now. These are dismal economic times. Everyone wants to blame someone. The Tea Party blames it on "that man" in the whitehouse. Maybe the Optimist party can change the discussion to: "We are in a mess, how do we get out of it?"

2) The Tea Party has a common dress code. Wrapped in the flag, and costumes from the Colonial period. This makes them all feel like a team. Maybe the Optimist Party should wear shirts and hats that say, "Fix it intelligently."

3) The Tea Party endorses politicians that support their anger. The Optimist Party should support politicians that talk reason and logic, instead of emotion.

4) The Tea Party inserts Social Politics into their platform. While this ensures them a base on the far right, it detracts from their primary economic messages. The Optimist Party should refrain from any social political postions. Those can be addressed separately.

5) We should stay focused. We are in dire straights. History has shown, that during economic downturns, government spending is the best strategy we have. It is not perfect, but we know for sure, that reversing course, and cutting spending, will make things worse. Study the Great Depression.

6) Socialize the message, that we will reduce spending appropriately, when the economy turns around. The concept that reducing taxes will increase employment is rubbish. The concept that the rich are the "job creators" while true, ignores the fact that employment is driven primarily by consumer demand. Let's be reasonable and thoughtful here.

7) Fix the infrastructure. Put people to work repairing our roads and bridges. Create construction jobs. This will have real impact on employment in the short term and on mobility in the long term. Do it now. The Tea Party hates this idea, but remember, their platform is ideological, not logical. "Taxes are bad. Spending is bad." That is the ideology of our opponents. They are wrong.

8) While I do not agree with everything Obama does, I do agree with his posture. Adult. Grown up. Contemplative. Comprimising. We must insist that our leaders follow that role model attitude.

To summarize, the reasonable people in our country need to create a movement. Right now, the Tea Party is the winning movement.

We need a movement of the Reasonable people in the country.

Like a team, with some graphics, with some trademarks, with some attitudes and clear thinking. With compromise, and logic, and contemplation.

Without emotion. With love for our country. With hope.

Don't worry Jackass - We are coming.

Bob,

Bring it on big boy. We will be waiting.

Losers in this debate are the Tea Baggers and the unyielding entitlement of the left.

Winners are the President, Mitch McConnel, John Boehner, and Harry Reid.

Given the assinine behavior of those who would destroy the nation as a threat to not getting their crybaby desires, this is the best outcome anyone could hope for. The can on the hard decisions was kicked down the road and RIGHTLY SO, given the knuckleheaded threats by the insolent, red-faced haters who can't negotiate. What has come out of this debate is to show they have no clothes.

Anyone upset by this deal deserves every ounce of ulcer causing hate. Stew in your radical minds. What will happen is now the real work will begin, and those who can't throw anything other than a tantrum will continue to be pushed aside right on through the election. I'm really looking forward to 2012, because it is going to go any way other than the way the radical poo poos want.

Forget it, Retired Military. The GOP are not ever going to let the president pass a democrat law to create jobs. It's just not going to happen.

To let the economy improve and the job numbers go up would be political suicide for them and that is ALL they care about. "Who has the football?!" That's all that matters to the GOP and they have literally said as much on TV. It's on record...

I marvel that certain "conservatives" and republicans on this blog can't see that and can only guess that they are shills themselves for any group out there that is pro-business over the citizens.

People here constantly complain and insult asking "Obama, where are the jobs?" but the pub's came in on the promise of jobs and have delivered far less than the president.

If the economy improves there is no way the GOP can take back the presidency and they know it. Sadly for the US that is THE most important thing for them and so they have intentionally blocked any measures that would help out. It's so damn obvious that a child can see it.

Job,

Why wait?

Refute or challenge one point I made.

M. Fisher,

So True.

With the tea partiers on the search for their holy grail of smaller government and the rich supporting them every step. Have you ever asked what is it the rich are getting out of all this?

Anyone with a brain might ask how convenient that the road to the land of smaller government just happens to be by never raising taxes on the richest again.

These conservative that pride themselves on their smarts, don't seem to be smart enough to see they are being played by the rich.

I also knew the Iraq war was about oil. Everyone just laughed at me and thought I was a terrorist lover. By 2010 people were acknowledging I was correct.

I told the people in my office a year before the stock market crash in 2008 that it was going to happen in a year and it happened in 10 months and not a year. The office laughed, how could I know when nobody else knows. While everyone in the office lost half of their 401K's mine was moved to a guaranteed cash account and I lost nothing. The first morning of the crash I walked up to my supervisor and asked if she remembered my warning from almost a year ago and she said yes and I told her well this is it.

At the end of my eight years at the office, when I would issue a warning, the girls started listening and not laughing.

I am issuing a warning now. Unfortunately you don't have 8 years to find out if I am telling the truth. Just try some common sense. The rich with the never raising taxes on the richest again is stealing our future now. How is never raising taxes on the richest good for the average American? Can't we create a smaller government without handing our future to the rich?

Most of all why would the rich invest so much money to the tea party and what is the advantage of a smaller government for them?

Why have the republicans vowed to assist Norquist in his goal to kill our government? Looks like they have started with the death by a 1000 cuts.

They never change. Either their reading skills are very suspect or they just lie through their teeth. Either one not good.

They constantly try to say we said things we did not thinking it will go unnoticed. When caught they change the subject and never admit they lied.

Holding the mirror in front of the left, are we? Spot on, couldn't have said it better myself.

I just ran my CEO's Earnings call and in doing so got to listen to a good portion of what us and our peers are planning in the next 2 Q's. We are 60k+ manf corp with a global footprint. The gist of the meeting was that, us and our peers are currently building cash and will continue to keep and increase the cash. The reasons given, The unsettled situation in Europe and the fact that the current US administration is not being clear enough about its agenda. The CEO's of these peer companies apparently feel the US is headed in Europe's direction, which will not be a great for business. Which is why they are saving cash and will continue! The only area we are currently hiring and building in is China, where the gov is very clear about its policies and after that gets out of the way! I can hear the howling already........ bring it on!

Jody says:

The GOPTP won a paper promise worth only the paper on which it is written

Then John B says:

massive cuts in the budget with little regard for programs and services

Hmmm, looks like you folks didn't coordinate your talking points this morning. So which is it, massive cuts that will slash programs and services, or phantom cuts not worth the paper they're printed on. Inquiring minds want to know.

M. Fisher:

Kudos you are right on the money. We are on the same page.

Either Democrats are incapable of learning or just can't be bothered enough to care about anything but themselves, probably both.

New Jersey Democrat resigns after nude photos circulated

"After an online sexting scandal brought down Congressman Anthony Weiner, the last thing a politician would even consider is sending a nude self-portrait over the Internet. Apparently not.

Cumberland County freeholder Louis Magazzu, 53, stepped down on Tuesday after nude photos he sent to a woman with whom he had a long online relationship were posted on the website of conservative blogger Carl Johnson, said Magazzu's lawyer Rocco Cipparone."

http://news.yahoo.com/jersey-democrat-resigns-nude-photos-circulated-210043325.html

Brianb-999431

no jo - While the liberals may comprise 21% of the population, you have to double that figure since their egos are twice the size of most people. Add to that the arrogance factor of 50%. Then you have to add another 25% for their insistence that they are always correct in every avenue of life. Let's see how the math adds up for them.

21% x 2 = 42% x 1.5 = 63% x 1.25 = 78.75%

No wonder they feel they are the majority of Americans...

Brian:

There are a lot of people on this board and others who claim to play it down the middle, and that they are "independants", or "moderates".

And then,.....out of the blue,...... comes a post like the one above.

Your true colors are showing, pal.

I haven't seen you post one pro-Liberal comment yet. Not even by accident.

They were making a point that any increase in revenue would only feed the beast. It's not that they are against increases in revenue, but in order to make a point that the government is out of control, they held fast on it this go round.

Baloney. Ask Grover Norquist if he's serious.

Bill, I stated what Conservatives are after...doesn't mean they'll get it. A 21% approval rating for Republicans on their handling of this mess is likely to come back to bite them.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for proof that S&P demanded $4T in deficit reduction. It never happened.

In reviewing Obama's 2012 Budget projections, this is what he shows for the next 10 years (2012 – 2021) with regard to the Social Security and Medicare programs;

Social Security;

Total Social Security Revenues = $8.937 Trillion.

Total Social Security Expenditures = $9.932 Trillion.

Total 10 year Deficit for Social Security = $995 Billion.

Medicare/Medicaid;

Total Medicare Revenues = $2.733 Trillion.

Total Medicare/Medicaid Expenditures = $10.807 Trillion.

Total 10 year Deficit for Medicare/Medicaid = $8.074 Trillion.

It should be noted that these programs currently have 'surplus' (a) Trust Funds held by the government in an amount exceeding $3 Trillion, so it would be quite some time before those Trust Fund balances would be exhausted, but the trend is obvious, and so there must be something done to restore them to a sound fiscal basis, either through benefit changes or payroll tax increases, or a combination of both. Interestingly, the total projected Deficits over the next 10 years amounts to $7.205 Trillion, so the Medicare/Medicaid programs alone, at $8.074 Trillion, account for 112% of the total Deficits over the next 10 years.

(a) – The 'Trust Fund' balances are not actual cash balances, but are IOUs from the Federal Government and the money that should be in the accounts was spent and must be repaid through increased taxes on future taxpayers. The reader must determine for themselves whether that was appropriate.

This information is being provided so the readers will at least have some basic knowledge of the current status of these programs, which seems to be sadly lacking from media reporting.

Source - http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/tables.pdf See Table S-3

To say these programs are 'untouchable' is to ignore the 'elephant in the room'.

Jolly,

I'm sure it has nothing to do with our current economic policies and should be blamed on evil greedy corporations entirely.

I can tell you one thing, I'm putting my 401 investments into cash for now. I know exactly how those companies feel. They are going to need the cash to ride this out if we continue running the government like spending has no consequences. I bet liberals never heard of "saving for a rainy day" or just chose to ignore the advice. But if busineses are going to save then the Dems are going to try to figure out a way to get it to the government by taxing.

JOE IN ALBANY---

Bet you never had to put a few kids through college....not sure if you attended one....but I must tell you it's expensive. My husband and I have paid out almost $100 grand ourselves.....each of my children have or had about $34 thousand in loans when the left or upon leaving. My son obtained a job immediately after graduation and paid 50% back, by the end of the year he will have paid them off completely. My daughter has one year to go yet. So 2 kids $200 thousand it cost out of pocket. And you are complaining some big BANK isn't making enough in interest off these kids....Yikes!!! Get your head on straight man. Guess what Joe we are on the low scale for middle class living like paupers in order to do this. You see we were taught to contribute to society by raising productive respectful children whom grow up to be respectful responsible productive adults. Something you lost a long the way buddy. Get a life, get off the blogs and do something productive.

ROY WILSON-336103

What is your point? Are you suggesting we cut back on these programs now?

As you say, they currently have surplus.

Don't you think it is wiser to accelorate the economy at this particular moment, rather than depress it?

Your constant flow of statistics, while noteworthy, don't seem to say anything other than, "Hey, look at how bad our government has performed"

Ok, we get it.

How about making some useful suggestiong about how to create jobs?

Oh, and I'm still waiting for proof that S&P demanded $4T in deficit reduction. It never happened.

I never said they did, you must be confusing me with a different Bill. That's OK, I often get you and John A mixed up, two looney leftists peas from the same pod.

Mixed Bag

On the bright side...

MSNBC senior political analyst Mark Halperin is back from his suspension.

That you're so eager to see a dishonest and foul-mouthed creep like Halperin get back on the Tee Vee says alot about your real character. None of it good.

Bill, I hate to burst your bubble but you aren't that important to me. The original request was directed at Jeff. Since he's disinclined to answer I opened it up to any of our FR Conservatives.

Like I said...it never happened.

Well because I know the right will be out in force for the elections, I strongly urge the left to do the same. For all that on the left, the Teaparty is what you get when you don't vote. If all on the left thinks it bad now, just let the Republicans and the Teaparty gain complete control over Washington. Work in your community to get folk registered and then work to get them to the polls.

And for the independents, all of you had better think long and hard if you really want the Teaparty running the whole show in Washington. The current crop of Republican candidates cannot decide if they are teaparty or not except for Bachman who is a loony on the loose. Nothing she says is more than a pile of cow manure. I hate being disrespectful to the manure.

American First. Well said.

So, Bill Fairfax, you said it, not me--we liberals don't coordinate our posts. FYI, Navy's post talks about IF those cuts are made; mine talks about why those cuts aren't set in stone in the outyears beyond the current Congress. Apples and oranges.

@Dont_carry_it_all

And you are complaining some big BANK isn't making enough in interest off these kids....

Why direct your ire at the banks? Even without a loan how much would college cost? It's cost is rising faster that health insurance. How can that be? Are there new innovations that are driving the cost up? Is it an improved product from 10 or 20 years ago? Or is just that colleges can gouge the market because of government support and limited supply? Direct your ire at the colleges because they are ones driving up the cost not the banks.

Ret...MSgt, cheers, well said. Vote!

Cautiously Optimistic One " ROY WILSON-336103 What is your point? How about making some useful suggestiong about how to create jobs?"

Maybe something different than just throwing money at the problem would help. The average Deficit under Bush (8 years) was $251 Billion per year, while it is expected to be $1,450 Billion per year under Obama, an increase in average Deficits of $3.6 Billion over the last 3 years, with virtually NO effect.

The bills passed by the Democrats over the last 3 years have DISCOURAGED job growth because of Obamacare (higher health care costs for employers), financial regulations (higher borrowing costs for companies), proposed EPA regulations (dramatically higher energy costs for companies), a huge increase in regulations (higher costs for companies to comply), proposed higher taxes on companies (tax the 'Golden Goose' even more), etc., etc., etc...

Gee, I wonder if those things might have discouraged job growth?

Here is some interesting information from the government's own Bureau of Labor Statistics (link below) that you will never see reported in the media;

Average jobs in 2008 (Bush's last year) = 145,362,000 net jobs.
Average jobs in 2010 (Obama's second year) = 139,064,000 net jobs, a LOSS of 6,298,000 jobs.

Perhaps we should stop treating business as the ENEMY, in both actions and 'rhetoric'.

Link to BLS jobs report - http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf

Happy birthday?????? This may make me rethink my opposition to abortion.

Ben numbers:

This is way over the line even for you. Grow up.

ROY WILSON ----

You do a fairly good job at posting figures....what is your position? Medicare is the real deficit driver. In 30 years the tax collected to fund hasn't increased. 30 years, wow. Healthcare costs have gone up to what in that same time period??? I would bet at least 300% It's something called "Starve the Beast" some would say. If you believe in helping the elderly and business additional taxes would take care of the deficit driver. If your against the program then you are for the "Starving the Beast". Where do you stand? Also in another post you posted a lot of figures about income receipts under GW Bush vs. Obama, however, you forgot to include the one time deal he made with corporations to bring their profits home from overseas taxed at a mere 5% Obama should do the same with all the money over there now, but what you say we make it 10% this time...maybe to try and discourage them from continuing this practice. It sure would boost bottom line income receipts for the Country right now.

Well, to paraphrase Pogo, "We have met the terrorists and they are us."

I remember when Iran seized the American Embassy and held it's staff hostage for more than a year.

Every night the newscasts started with "America held hostage..day 101" or whatever day it was.

Well, America has been held hostage again, but it wasn't the Iranians or Al Queada or the Taliban, it was the GOP/TP who held America hostage. They threatened to damage our retirement investments and put millions out of work. They threatened to cause a world-wide, global financial panic, just so they could force their so-called "fiscal responsibility" down our throats. And sadly, it worked.

They took what has historically been a routine house-keeping matter and turned it into something it has never been before in the history of this country, a crisis. They held America hostage until they got their way, or most of it at least. And they have already publicly announced that they intend to do it again and again and again....

The President, as the only true American in the whole sorry business, was finally forced to hold his nose and accept their one-sided deal rather than let a default shove us and probably the rest of the world into a depression. People depending on Social Security and Medicare, retirees depending on their investments to stretch a paltry pension were all put in danger of a finanacial tsunami that would have wiped them out if the President hadn't stepped in and saved them. The GOP/TP didn't care. What are a few elderly or infirm when it comes to a political sacred cow. If you aren't making a million a year, you are nothing to the GOP/TP. Absolutely nothing. And so they held us hostage to force the President into saving us, as they new that good man would.

We used to have a policy in this country that we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not pay ransom and we do not give in to ANY of their demands. It's time we remember that policy and stick to it next time and we know there WILL BE a NEXT TIME because the terrorist in charge has already bragged about it.

Mr. President, please, for the sake of the future of the United States, when this card is played again don't give in. Force them to either put America first or let us default and let them shoulder the blame. Then ORDER the terrorist in charge to go to China and the rest of our creditors and explain his actions. Let him explain to the rest of the world why they had to create the greatest financial crisis in history.

AMERICA HELD HOSTAGE....day 215.

Alan NJ,

Joe mentioned banks...while denigrating a kid trying to better himself. Yeah, my ire is both banks and colleges, can't win with either. Joe is not someone I would be proud of as a mom though. He doesn't take the high ground.

Why does no one take a look at that massive defense budget. My son is a USN officer and I added up his salary and perks. The total is enough to educate 27.4 children at the current rate of $5445./student. We continuously spend the money on defense, spending as much as the balance of the world combined. It is time that we Liberals have a say in our government. Stop spending abroad and concentrate on our own back yard.

The GOP has kissed the a$$ of the TP folks and are equally responsible as their cohorts in sending us back to 1820.

Dont_carry_it_all "ROY WILSON ----You do a fairly good job at posting figures....what is your position?"

First - Make Medicare fiscally sound. I calculate that it would take an increase of about $142 per month ($71 per month each from employers and employees) for the average employee to cover the Deficit in this program.
Second - I agree we need to care for those on Medicaid, but we need to reform the program. Right now, those on Medicaid get a 'free ride' on health care (worth about $10,000 per year) while those who are barely above the income limit get nothing. I would propose a small co-pay by Medicaid recipients, along with a graduated scale of eligibility to make it fair to all.
Third - Since many people who get Medicaid get paid 'under the table', they get benefits they are not entitled to, but I don't know how we can 'police' that, so I would suggest that we fund Medicaid with a small National Sales Tax of about 2%. That will make sure that everyone pays into the system.

These changes would make a dramatic improvement in the Deficits, and perhaps largely eliminate them for the benefit of our children and grandchildren.

Actually, I would like to see Universal Health Care, patterned after the highly successful systems in France and Taiwan - then we could have affordable health care for everyone, and save perhaps $10 Trillion on health care over the next 10 years. But, because of the politics involved, the only way this could be done is by a panel of health care experts designing a system that includes the bast features of all of the systems in the World, and then have a national referendum vote (like Taiwan did). This would solve the whole health care issue.

That's my 'position' - How about you?

lol, Houston-

You have no problem with the foul-mouths who spew obscene epithets at First Read, do you?

Of course you don't...

You're one of the offenders.

Mark Halperin is no more foul-mouthed than you are.

You're definitely a "character", though...

ROY WILSON-336103

I like your ideas about healthcare. I work in the healthcare industry, and cover countries in Latin America.

I agree we should have Universial Health Care, like every other capable country in the world.

PLUSES -- It is the humane thing to do. Larger economies of scale at the Federal level instead of the State level. Better chance to implement money saving standards for Electronic Medical Records (That alone can trim about 20% of total costs, based on my experiences in other countries). Better chance to fix the layers and layers of payees -- centralize the payer system and remove the fat

MINUSES -- Yes, expect longer wait times to see a doctor. But not all cases. It really means you have to do a better job managing your visits to the doctor. If you stay on top of the changes, you will not have serious issues (again, based on my experiences in other countries)

david walker (post 1.6)

"asked this question yesterday, and the silence was deafening. I'll ask it again. The right-wing mantra included a chant about uncertainty. Golly gee, with all that uncertainty out there, why would the rich - I'm sorry, I meant "job-creators" - invest?"

Based on consumers reportably spending less and the stock market falling over the last 1 1/2 weeks should have been answer enough. The drop in consumer spending is a real tell all because they set the demand. while the wealthy provides the capital. for expansion.

Another gem of yours...

"There is no certainty. Come on Republicans. That's what life is all about. Can the crap."

Sometimes I wonder if you have the ability to think... Governments function is and should be to legislate legislate a degree of certainty for business as well as the populace and to date it hasn't. Cases in point is that the regs are not yet completed for obamacare or wall st reform, the senate refuses to come up with a counter offer to the house passed FY2012 budget and obama continues to show his inability to promote unity and show us a path forward. Now it looks like he is anxious to once again hit the campaign trail against some imaginary opponent.

Since it seems that you think that life is so uncertain (no doubt anyone of us my die today), I wonder how you view our current tax codes? OSHA? current banking regs already written? Yes, future congresses may change them. but they are written down and many of them have been tested in our courts.

Certainty is about providiung effective short term plans and promoting confidence to the populace on where we can go in the future, both medium and long term. It is not about throwing darts at a board hoping to hit the right solution. That makes me wonder on what obamas hand picked team of business leaders have recommended to him on what business is looking for to create more jobs.

I am sure their biggest observation is a lack of demand. So far obamas rhetoric is all about investing in the future, but not how to get there from today.

Please do keep on posting your observations as I am sure that many on the right can dismantle your arguments on the right being the only ones wrong.

Dont_carry_it_all

With regard to the taxing of corporate profits from overseas operations when they are 'repatriated' to the U.S., this is a difficult issue. If we don't give them some incentive to bring the profits back here, we will be discouraging business investment (and jobs) here, while encouraging investments (jobs) in foreign lands. If we try to tax them too much for bringing those funds back to the U.S., they will merely invest abroad in companies(and jobs).

Actually, my position on corporate taxes is that they make no sense, because corporations don't pay income taxes, their customers do in the form of higher prices for American made products and services. The unfortunate aspect of taxing our corporations is that it makes our companies less competitive with foreign companies that have less onerous tax policies, thus costing us jobs. Also, foreign companies that operate in the U.S. have pricing strategies that virtually make them tax-exempt for their operations in this country, again putting American companies at a cost disadvantage. Since we only get about 10% of our tax receipts from corporations, we could eliminate corporate taxes completely, which would create a HUGE economic incentive for American companies to expand and hire, while replacing the lost revenues with a small national sales tax of about 2%.

That's my 'position' n that issue.

Dont_carry_it_all

Addendum to my Post #1.89.

I would remove the "Most Favored Nation" status for China (which would allow tariffs on their exports to us) until they start playing fair with their currency/trade practices.

But, of course, we do owe them a LOT of money.

Mixed Bag

Mark Halperin is no more foul-mouthed than you are.

On top of all your other character traits, you're a liar as well. I've never used the sort of nasty language Halperin did in this forum, not even with asterisks, and Halperin would never dare use it, either, -- on a Republican.

Now, Houston...

There's one obscene epithet you use all the time...very, very nasty.

lol

It's more obscene than anything Halperin has said.

And...I'm not lying.

Let's see if you are.

Mixed Bag

Now, Houston...

There's one obscene epithet you use all the time...very, very nasty.

If you're referring to "teabagger", there's nothing obscene about calling someone who staples teabags to their hats that, especially since that's what they called themselves until someone pointed out an Urban Dictionary definition. What's obscene is their attempt to associate themselves with the Boston Tea Party, which was a protest against taxation without representation, not a protest against a president who won an election fair and square.

Roy Wilson ---

I think we as Country are obviously still trying to answer the fundamental questions on healthcare...silly as it is. That said increasing the taxes that fund medicare would go a long way toward making it solvent and self-funded. On the issue of Obamacare vs. the Conservative platform neither address the problem. Conservatives want tort reforms and the ability to sell insurance across state lines. First off tort reforms were tried in California and failed and would this not just empower bad doctors to continue practicing? Maybe there is room for discussion there. However, allowing insurance companies to compete nationally would encourage too big to fail monopolies. We the consumer would wind up with the choice of 2 or 3 insurers who ultimately price fix. Additionally, I think it would create a huge burden on private practices whom would have to hire a ton of additional billers just to wade through 200 or so carriers. Yikes!

If Conservatives win the battle could a non profit compete in the national insurance pool???

With respect to your position on Corporate taxes I am of the mindset everyone needs a little skin in the game.

How bout we tax them at 15% earmarked for infrastructure and defense? They use our common resources and our military to protect them both here and abroad. Fair trade I feel. Be careful with China is about right.

Thanks for the reasonable thought out answers. I'm still trying to get a grasp on these issues.

american lotsanumbers:

So, finally one of you has gumption enough to step up with an answer.

Your first paragraph provides the REAL answer to my question. The uncertainty of doing business does not arise from government actions. The uncertainty is created by the consumer. Anyone running a successful business knows that his customers run his business. They create the demand, not the government.

I've put this out here time and again. Yes, government can be a pain in the neck. However, those nasty regulations that the right-wing loves to whine about are the reason we don't have dead lakes, burning rivers and air we can't breathe. Government can be an irritant, but it is not the enemy. Business that pollute the air, water, and soil are the enemy. Banks that loot the economy are the enemy. Damned right they need regulating. We need protection from their rapacious ways, not vice-versa.

This quote from you is really worthy of a chuckle, "Governments function is and should be to legislate legislate a degree of certainty for business as well as the populace and to date it hasn't."

Let's try this quote on on for size: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Now, I know the guys who wrote that are dead. Maybe I just don't understand "original intent" and all that other stuff, but I don't see a word about assuring a degree of certainty for a business. In fact, I could go out and find a host of quotes from those old dead guys bemoaning the destructive influence of corporations.

You want certainty? Here's another quote from an old dead guy - Benjamin Franklin: "Two things are certain in life, death and taxes." That's the way it is american.

You whine about regulations not being complete. Regulations will NEVER be complete. As fast as one issue is addressed, corporations are sending their hordes of lobbyists to change them, to repeal them, and gut them. They will also be spending big bucks to find ways to circumvent the regs. Of course there will ALWAYS be regs in the works.

I'll close with some words from another old dead guy. In fact, this guy belonged to a group of people know as the Party of Lincoln. Yup, it was Abraham Lincoln who observed that ours is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. People! Not business. Not corporations. People!

MixedUpTeabagger:

[It's more obscene than anything Halperin has said.]

Awww...got a bit of sand in your vagina, do you? I'm totally surprised you didn't answer Houston's question with a question, as you always do...seems your false morals are getting in the way, huh...

Give it up, teabagger...you're way out of the batter's box.

Businesses want simple smart regulations here you go:

Do no harm to either person or land, fair wage and safety above all else. There you go. Simple.

John B Here you go. BTW the $4t was a good start. I believe this is what he was referring to. Have a nice day.

By Walter Brandimarte and Daniel Bases NEW YORK | Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:59pm EDT

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Cutting the U.S. deficit by some $4 trillion over 10 years would be a good start, but more savings would be needed over time to bring the country's finances under control,
ratings agency Standard & Poor's said on Thursday.
John Chambers, the chairman of S&P's sovereign ratings committee, said deficit cuts of that magnitude "would signal the seriousness of policymakers to address the fiscal position of the United States."

His comments, made during a conference call with clients, suggest S&P would probably be convinced to keep U.S. ratings at AAA if lawmakers were to show commitment to solving the debt problem with bold deficit-cutting measures.

Chambers added, however, that $4 trillion in savings, "depending on whether it was frontloaded or backloaded, is not going to do the trick in terms of stabilizing the U.S. government debt-to-GDP ratio.

That ratio, which measures the country's debt load against the size of its economy, is one of the main
factors considered by ratings agencies on deciding on a rating. It depends on
cutting the deficit as much as it depends on economic growth.

Chambers noted that, according to the International Monetary Fund, the U.S.government would have to come up with savings of about 7.5 percent of its gross domestic product to actually stabilize its debt-to-GDP ratio. "I think we have it a little more than that, but $4 trillion would be a good down payment," he said, referring to the figure originally proposed by the Simpson-Bowles deficit commission and embraced by President Barack Obama in April.

Uh-huh...sure.

Nice try, Houston...

It's an obscenity, and you know it.

But, you like it.

So does Mickey

You both KNOW.

You aren't fooling anyone.

:-)

david walker - to bad you didn't fully understand this...

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

Certainty does not apply equally to your contention that health and safety is a government controlled function that must be rigorously maintained for you ignore human individuality and its role in governing. You also ignore the following quote...

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes

you miss the point on certainty and regulations and that what congress passes as legislation isn't always translated accurately as such by those writing the regs.

While the declaration is indeed a noble and worthwhile document you have failed to understand the last quote and how regulations have gotten out of hand and in many cases no longer apply. Wouldn't you say that another word for prudence would be common sense?

I am glad you found my comment on saying..."Governments function is and should be to legislate legislate a degree of certainty for business as well as the populace and to date it hasn't." worth chuckling about. Isn't that a part of why the declaration was written?

Perhaps you chuckled over my given examples? Then again maybe it was the stuttered word "legislate"? Regardless, the declaration may say all men are created equal but many regulations are written to negate that or to force an individual or entity down a path that does away with his unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Granted, this should not be construed as in any way of condoning actions infringing on anothers rights, but therein lies the slippery slope of what constitutes rights. Furthermore we are governed by the constitution which I may assume you agree that the declaration was used as a guideline.

In a nation controlled by regulations, is it certainty or uncertainty that governs anyone to try and interpret government rhetoric alone as to what actions to take? Business works off of best case scenarios. Some decisions will be right and others wrong. And written regs do convey a sense of consistantly until they are next changed.

As for my initial answer to you, one can't ignore the fact that government does play a part in how a business operates and what the government expects a business to do. Government rhetoric plays a big part in creating an atmosphere of confidence that business can look forward on. Do you think that the consumers lack of confidence to continue spending is based solely on whether they believe business will continue hiring or that the government is providing mixed signals on the path to be taken to resolve economic issues? My money is on the government not providing a degree of certainty through confidence.

I agree that certainty will never be absolute except perhaps in death and taxes, but government can go a long ways to create an atmosphere of certainty.

Lastly, you also make the false assumption that all business is out to get us, what is your solution, nationalization? Perhaps even more regulations delving down into the minutiae of of how to protect everyone. Obviously there will come a point when many will say enough is enough.

If S&P lowers the rating it'll be a subject of conversation, since Moodys and Fitch Ratings already affirmed AAA ratings for the United States. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903366504576486481793462482.html

It'll also be the fault of the GOPTP since Conservatives WALKED AWAY from a $4T deal.

Guess you're probably pretty upset with Republican leaders about that, aren't you?

And your link does NOT say the rating would be lowered if savings turn out to be less than $4T. Like I keep saying--it didn't happen that way. Thanks for providing the proof.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --

Who was it that once said that "religion was the last refuge of the scoundrel"? I think the same applies to wrapping yourself in the flag.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a Bible".

- Sinclair Lewis

The Right's Platform:

Education Policy: Lower Taxes

Transportation Policy: Lower Taxes

Labor Policy: Lower Taxes

Enviromental Policy: Lower Taxes

Foreign Policy: I can see Russia from my house! :~

We get it johnB - every thing is the rights fault, and the left did nothing. Nice to see that obama was willing to throw granny under the bus though with $600 billion in entitlement cuts. Now if only obama let's his tax cuts expire accross the board.

That's what I thought...no answer for the facts.

IR:

Outstanding.

We keep hearing about this "Super Commission". I looks more like the "Impotent Commission". Both sides are going to pack this thing with radicals that will; have orders not to compromise on certain issues. This is nothing more than a road block to moving forward and opens the door for more "Hostage" taking in a few months.

Like I said Navy I don't think that I would do that. But we will see. Nonetheless I do belive that we've run out of Hostages. If you take "em it's going to hurt.

What's that saying, IR---be careful what you wish for? The eyes of the country are even more focused on the Tea Party---they ran promising to create jobs and shrink the government---well, let's see if they do that.

Great points, excellent analysis, IR.

There is so much in this deal that is being overlooked by many. President Obama stacked the deck against the GOPTP with the triggers by protecting the social safety nets yet requiring deep cuts to military spending--what the GOP holds dearest--if no deal is reached. You are right about the Super Committee. Both sides need to appoint their smartest and best legislators to the table not their rigid ideologues.

IR: Thanks, good point. Time will tell.

I Pray for the best and prepare for the worst.

Jody - When has the government EVER not put in ideologues on these types of committees? The deck will be stacked with them on both sides. Instead of placing people of reason, intelligence and a caring for the American people, you will find rigid, hard nosed, useless idiots placed there to fight for their respective sides. It's always a war with these elected morons.

Morning IR,

Great point.

Who gets put on these committees? Well, who gets put on advisory committees that spend our money?

In the Obama administration, it is big donors- who cut themselves in for a chunk of change

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/03/31/MN2E1INMK1.DTL&ao=all

Shovel ready, indeed.

I don't believe the Obama Administration gets to place anyone on the Super Committee. It's all Congress' deal. They'll do their job and legislate or they won't.

It's what Congress is supposed to do. It's what they were always supposed to do, but they've gotten really good at avoiding their work.

Great...another commission that will make mostly ignored recommendations...

Don't understand why "revenues" encounters such tunnel vision from the TP...revenues to me are the following: 2 maybe three tax brackets and simplifying the tax code aka getting rid of loopholes.

Can't ignore them jinsd. Triggers kick in. John B thanks for answering NoJo I've quit bothering

The last time the debt ceiling was an issue was when it was proposed. Republicans already voted without obstruction under Obama once before to raise it last December. Politics as usual. The GOP/TP has a great ploy though. The have just successfully made the economy worse, which polling shows that the reason most likely to make Obama a one-term POTUS is if the economy crashes again. Boehner even said "I got 98% of what I wanted." I guess the other 2% was an immediate collapse of the US. The GOP/TP literally forced the president to run the economy into the ground to avoid running it into the ground even deeper just so the GOP/TP can conjure up some talking points for 2012.

What happened to the time when people stood behind the President and accepted him as the President of this nation? Where did this go? Oh yeah, racist TP bastards who go on Chris Matthews and say "Obama is your president." and believe that default is good thing. The same people who are $400,000 in debt and claim they are the masters of financial responsibility. The same people who laid off 10,000 government workers in their districts and say they are "creating jobs." These people even created a lapse of $1 billion in revenue from the FAA just to prove a point about $300 million in rural airport spending. These people are praying to God that we live in a society that is akin to the theocracies of the Middle East. They want to end the very programs that differentiate the US from that of a third world nation all in order to "give back the freedoms that Obama stole." The y call the .005% of our budget, foreign aid, a waste of money because we're helping people in a famine. These people are monstrosities and we need to get them out of our government. It makes no logical sense to elect someone who want to destroy government into our government. That is just illogical. Get them out!

Norquist or country? That is the question.

The Abuser Party is now enemy of the people, the President, and this country.

Look what's happening to the DOW, even though the debt ceiling was finally raised. Look at the $30million a day it will cost to continue the FAA fiasco because for GOP it's about ending unions, and not about saving/creating jobs. Republicans refuse to budge on the issue, leaving 70,000 construction workers without work and taking off for a five-week vacation. Look how Americans for Progress (Koch Oil)) sent mailers to seniors in WI giving the deadline as August 11th ~ two days after the actual vote.

Oath of Office? Taking something non-contraversial like the debt ceiling & loading it up with concession items they wouldn't otherwise get, doesn't have to become a habit if we say NO, NOT THIS TIME. This CorporateNewGOP war on the President is a war on all of us, and now we know it doesn't stop at our borders

BackHouse:

Nice job. I agree with you totally. The GOP/TP is on a frontal assault of just about every principle/value that made this country great.

Interesting on how IR's reasoned observations in post 1.0 has morphed into the insane rantings of FR libs on once again trying to blame the right for everything.

Sure, the debt ceiling could have been raised cleanly, but that would have meant ignoring S&P's warning in april and yes it was used as a hostage to put the matter of our debt front and center. As IR mentioned, it is now a matter of wisely choosing commitee members to avoid setting off the triggers.

No one should think that this piece of legislation is anything but a "baby step" to addressing the debt. And I draw the term "baby step" from senator alan simpsons skype interview at noon ET today on bloomberg TV.

Independent Redneck Va. "Revenue is back on the table. The Super Committee is charged with raising revenue or cutting programs or some combination thereof. And everything is on the table for this phase. So Bowles-Simpson or Gang of Six is back in play. With a twist. If they don’t agree by Thanksgiving then a trigger kicks in. The trigger is 50% Defense cuts and 50% Cuts to Discretionary Spending. Cuts to Discretionary spending takes Social Security, Medicare, and the Medicaid off the table since they aren’t Discretionary."

I think Obama has put himself in a 'box', with few options to get out. Not only did the Republicans get $900 Billion in cuts in return for a $900 Billion increase in the Debt limit (which will only get him to the end of this year) with no new taxes, but he has given virtually all of the 'cards' to the Republicans on the balance of the $1.5 Trillion of cuts and increases in the Debt limit to get him through the 2012 elections. If the Republicans don't get $1.5 Trillion in more cuts without tax increases, Obama will have to make $1.2 Trillion in more cuts to Domestic and Defense spending, but any cuts the Republicans don't like in Defense spending, they can merely add back in a separate bill, and dare the Democrats to stop 'funding our troops in the field'.

It's a win-win for the Republicans and a lose-lose for the Democrats.

Who gets put on these committees? Well, who gets put on advisory committees that spend our money?

No Jo Sen McConnel, Sen Reid, House Speaker Boehner and House Minority Leader will decide the composition of the committee.

Yes american, way back in April S&P was among those alarmed at the determination of the GOPTP to play chicken with the American economy. Specifically they said;

We believe there is a material risk that U.S. policymakers might not
reach an agreement on how to address medium- and long-term budgetary
challenges by 2013; if an agreement is not reached and meaningful
implementation is not begun by then, this would in our view render the
U.S. fiscal profile meaningfully weaker than that of peer 'AAA'
sovereigns.

http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245302886884

This isn't hard to decipher...they said this is a POLITICAL problem caused by INABILITY TO REACH AN AGREEMENT. Yet more confirmation that this was an artificial crisis manufactured by Conservatives who could care less what damage they do in their hunger for power.

ROTFLMAO! yep, johnB you confirmed that the GOP did something while the left sat on its hands and did nothing, seem to remember your deep concern over the topic when you had a one word post saying "yawn".

Nice to see that obama and company finally started to get the message around june 2011. Sad that his campaign schedule had to take a hit in July though, but I hear that his little 50th birthday bash is really just another fundraiser at $35,000 a pop. And to think that he doesn't even know who he will be running against!

Sorry, that dog won't hunt when even Mitch McConnell has admitted the GOP took the debt ceiling "hostage."

The American people deserve better than elected representatives see the nation they've sworn to uphold and protect as a hostage.

Navy:

As usual...excellent post.

Until our government gets fixed it will make no difference who is president, this crap will continue.

I hate to be a cynic, but "until our government gets fixed?" I do not foresee ANY set of circumstances that will bring that about.

It's broken, it's corrupt, and it does not work in the public interest. And that is unlikely to change...

Thanks Biweeler:

I have been reading all your posts and they are excellent and right on point. Keep writing you have a lot to say and people are listening.

Great job.

President Obama introduced an “Infrastructure Bill” that would have created hundreds of thousands of good paying construction jobs

__________________________________________________

More "shovel ready" jobs??

I think the American people know what Barry is shoveling, and it ain't jobs.

Judge Joe:

I think the American people know what Barry is shoveling, and it ain't jobs.

And this doesn't help much, either.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/news/economy/1108/gallery.layoffs_jobs_unemployment/?iid=Lead

This is just one of nine companies described in the article who are slashing jobs. Notice here the description for the cause of the layoffs at Lockheed Martin.

One of the Pentagon's top defense suppliers, Lockheed Martin, recently announced a voluntary layoff program for 6,500 employees its Bethesda, Md. headquarters and business services unit.

That announcement comes on top of 1,500 layoffs in the company's aeronautics division, 1,200 layoffs in its space systems unit and 600 voluntary buyouts of senior executives earlier this year.

In a recent earnings report, the company acknowledged that government spending cuts and a weak economy were factors driving some of the layoffs.

Merck, on the other hand, is taking its own job-slashing actions in order to position itself for "growth" --

Merck has been aggressively cutting costs since it bought its rival Schering-Plough for $41 billion two years ago.

As part of the next phase of that merger, the pharmaceutical giant plans to take an axe to its workforce, cutting 13% -- or roughly 12,000 to 13,000 jobs -- by 2015.

"Merck is taking these difficult actions so that we can grow profitably and continue to deliver on our mission well into the future," CEO Kenneth Frazier said in an earnings release last week.

Sure. The kind of growth that doesn't come with jobs.

And exactly what I've been talking about out here for months. Instead of creating jobs, this is what many corporations do with their record profits and their tax breaks. They spend them creating more growth in profits, but fewer jobs.

And that's the same program that we've just been sold ... again.

Look out below, folks. We ain't seen the bottom yet.

Obama thinks he can fool people with his "infrastructure bank"? He really does think the electorate is idiotic.

The last stimulous was highly lucrative for Obama's supporters. For those paying the tab, not so much. Remember the 600,000 stimulous related jobs that were supposed to magically appear during the summer of 2009? Remember Recovery Summer 2010? How about the 400,000 jobs that would appear "instantly" when HCR got rammed down our throats?

The fact is that unemployment should be at 12% - the only reason it is not is that BLS recategorized millions out of the labor force. That pushed it WAAAAY down to 9.2%.

The fact is that Commerce is massaging GDP data- to hide the fact that we are contracting, not growing.

The fact is that Obama gave billions of stimulous dollars to his donors- this is called corruption, media. You might want to get on that.

The fact is that we are not going to allow him to pull another swindle- period.

Obama is a proven failure as president. Obama shelved in 2012.

US Navy Disabled Retired Veteran Labradoodle,

Woof! Woof! Throw the Infrastructure tennis ball again?

Still falling for the fake tennis ball toss? Sheez where have you been? Obama faked that toss and laughed at you for chasing it a year ago …. And now you are still sniffing for that load after all this time …… you want him to throw it again?

Wow – I never imagined I would have to laugh WITH Obama.

Do you ever actually pay attention, look at an unemployment number, GDP growth…..?

The debate is over – Our country went broke so Obama could PROVE over the last 2 ½ years that government trillions don't produce jobs. More people bump into Elvis at the grocery store everyday than mumble their belief in infrastructure jobs.

NOW YOU WANT TO PENALIZE THE LIFE BLOOD OF ANY ECONOMY TO BUILD BRIDGES TO ECONOMIC NOWHERE!

It is one thing to be clueless, but to be 180 degrees wrong day after day after day ,,,,,

Here's a clue .....

Try this from an Washington Examiner piece "What's Obama got against the Lone Star State? / where they quote the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee …….

"The Obama Administration has systematically blocked domestic energy production in the Gulf of Mexico, and today's report puts that in stark terms. It documents a 250 percent increase in the deepwater exploration permit backlog with a decrease of nearly 80 percent for plan approvals and deepwater drilling. That means a loss of $9 million in capital investment in 2011, along with a projected loss to the government of $25 billion in royalties and tax payments over the next 3 years, to say nothing of tens of thousands of jobs lost."

That is just about Texas and just about the Gulf.

Obama's Fish and Wildlife has suddenly found a little lizard that no one has ever seen and is trying to shut down West Texas oil production,

Obama's EPA is trying to shut down coal with the Cross-State Air Pollution Rule even though (who the heck even knew there was coal in Texas) ……. the EPA's own computer model showed Texas does not contribute to the emissions the rule seeks to reduce AND THE EPA OFFICIALS REFUSE TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY ARE APPLYING THE RULE!

Again – that is just Texas. What about the other Gulf states? Same thing. Same type of crap.

What about the 2^nd largest reserve of Alaska? Shell Oil, after investing $4 billion dollars is giving up attempts to drill off Alaska because after 2 ½ years of dealing with Obama's bullsh!t now finds out that Obama's EPA is withholding permits because Shell had not taken into account the greenhouse gas emissions of an icebreaking vessel needed to clear the way for the drilling ships. That's one example.

From Alaska to Louisiana, from Utah to West Virginia, from polar bears to dune lizards – Obama is killing the energy industry with any excuse any lie, he can fabricate.

Navydoodle whines and cries about jobs and revenues everyday.

HERE ARE YOUR JOBS – HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF GREAT JOBS.

HERE IS REVENUE – TO THE FEDS AND THE STATES.

Leasing, royalties, permitting etc are the second highest source of revenue for the federal government after taxes – and Obama turns his snotty nose away.

What about the revenue, the INCOME TAXES of those hundreds of thousands who are dying to be allowed to work – Obama turns his spineless twisted back to them.

What about the cost of high energy to the economy? What is that cost to job creation?

What about the cost of high energy to run, to light, to heat, to air condition all those thousands of federal and state buildings? (DoD alone spends $3.6 billion just on their space!)

What about double the costs to run all those federal vehicles, state vehicles, cop cars, school buses, military vehicles, and planes, and ships …….

We are the richest country in the world with regard to natural resources and Obama is killing the industry, killing jobs ……. killing the economy.

"What's Obama have against the Lone Star State?"

Heck ….

"What's Obama got against America?"

Obama is a proven failure as president. Obama shelved in 2012.

In favor of what, exactly?

Anna, Business is not spending to create jobs, the government is cutting spending which means at the least no new job even in the public sector, and consumer spending is missing in action...

so where are those "Job Creators"?

Hope we all have a record setting harvest, farmers will be happy and so will my pantry.

We start looking to the cold months off on the horizon here in MN even in the heat of summer.

Will we have a Winter of Discontent?

Obama is a proven failure as president. Obama shelved in 2012.

In favor of what, exactly?

___________________________________________________________

Anything other than a Navy Labradoodle or a Redheaded Chihuahua

NorthstarDFL,

I think we'll just have discontent, regardless of season.

Great posts all!

I've been reading all your excellent posts and I wanted you to know that they are all EXCELLENT!

Keep up the great work!

Anna Molly,

I am intimately familiar with the Merck/Schering-Plough acquisition. It's different from the direct layoff's necessitated by lack of demand and the under utilization of our factories.

When two virtually identical companies are combined, there is nothing but duplication to be sorted out. The best of both companies are staying. You just don't need 2 of everything. It is not happy times at Merck but to ask Merck to almost double their payroll for jobs that are already filled to save other workers is insane. This is how mergers, sales and acquisitions work. Not pretty but, unfortunately necessary.

To your second point. Defense. If you remember, Obama said he would not embrace Simpson-Bowles was because defense would be cut by almost $1 trillion. Seems that under the initial cuts, defense gets cut about a half trillion and if the super committee can't agree on cuts, the "trigger" cuts both Medicare and defense by another half trillion. That's the trillion Obama was not opposed to.

Defense is hard to cut. Think about...the economies of Virgina and Texas are almost totally dependent upon the military bases, the service families and the base employees and contractors for revenue. The military is the largest single employer in both those states. Now, if you were a Congressperson from those states, just hard hard would you fight to keep defense cuts in your districts from happening. Just a thought.

The upcoming cuts and resultant rise in unemployment , decline in growth and possible rise in interest rates are the only real outcome we can be sure of in the "bi-partisan deal"

Here's another article on the job situation that compliments my earlier article --

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/03/news/economy/jobs_challenger_adp/index.htm

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The jobs recovery slowed for a third month in a row, according to two reports out Wednesday.

Private sector employers added 114,000 workers in July, marking a decrease from the 145,000 jobs added in June, payroll processing firm ADP reported.

That number beat economists' forecasts for 100,000 additional jobs, but it is also taken with a grain of salt by some economists, since ADP's figures have differed wildly from government data this year. In June, ADP's initial numbers topped the government figures by 100,000.

Meanwhile, a separate report showed more firms are opting to downsize, rather than add to their payrolls.

The number of planned job cuts surged to a 16-month high in July -- rising 60% in July to 66,414 from June's 41,432, according to outplacement consulting firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas.

The Challenger report characterized it as a "sudden and unexpected burst" in downsizing.

(Emphasis added)

Unexpected to whom? I expected it.

As an addendum..

How can you create jobs when there is no demand.

Consumers cut spending again last month to lows we haven't sen in a very long time.

Business have no reason to expand. Their factories are underutilized. There is no reason to expand....something they would typically do with interest rates at near historical lows.

...and now an additional $2.8 trillion in cuts sucked out of the economy. Spending will be lower for sure. How does that create demand. This is not all corporate America's fault. They would be happy. ecstatic even, to be able to up production but why would they if no one is buying.

...and it's going to get worse as layoff begin anew due to this cuts only plan.

Sorry..post 3.12..

Sorry.

Should read the same $1 trillion in defense cuts Obama WAS opposed to.

I am intimately familiar with the Merck/Schering-Plough acquisition. It's different from the direct layoff's necessitated by lack of demand and the under utilization of our factories.

When two virtually identical companies are combined, there is nothing but duplication to be sorted out. The best of both companies are staying. You just don't need 2 of everything. It is not happy times at Merck but to ask Merck to almost double their payroll for jobs that are already filled to save other workers is insane. This is how mergers, sales and acquisitions work. Not pretty but, unfortunately necessary.

I know this, Ira, except I don't know what you mean by "necessary." The M&A itself is not technically "necessary."

To say that it's not happy times at Merck is to shade this a little bit as if to draw sympathy. It clearly IS happy times for Merck shareholders in that their profits will go up. That's the "growth" that is posited, I assume.

Who it's NOT happy times for are the workers.

And that's exactly my point. Where do you expect jobs to come from in this kind of environment? And how will cutting government spending and keeping corporate taxes low do anything significant to stem the tide of the job losses caused by these kinds of situations, as mentioned in the article I just posted above?

Because I just don't see it. And the evidence supports me.

Now I really have to go. Clients await. See you later.

Anna Molly..

There are 2 of every department in this acquisition...duplication at every critical stage and department. Do you really expect to have Merck keep everyone....everyone...to do jobs that only one person is needed for. That's not a good business model nor a good business decision. The best of BOTH companies and a few extra people are staying on. That's the very best any company can do.

That's how it works when companies are bought, etc. It happens this way every time. One facility is close and sold, the other becomes the operating facility.

Rarely are there 2 autonomous facilities competing against each other cause it is NOT cost effective and if you recall, the first priority of the business is profits. If Schering-Plough was profitable, they would not have been sold.

Anna Molly:

I agree with the above. People are still trying to make something out of nothing. "Shovel Ready" was just a term (appropriate for construction since they do still use shovels). The point they will not acknowledge is that most people with a functional brain stem knew that there was planning/implementation, funding etc that had to be done before one shovel was turned.

Again this is just more BS trying to create an issue when one does not exist.

The point is that President Obama is the only one trying to create jobs - and the GOP/TP is the party that has virtually blocked every single bill that had anything to do with jobs. They create the crisis and then blame everybody else. Well people are starting to see where the problem is and it is not in the White House.

Again more of the same bogus crap instead of concentrating their energy on moving this country forward.

For crying out loud, Ira.

The $2.8 figure is a D.C. cut- a cut in growth.

See, in D.C., if they have five dollars, and plan to spend ten, and get told, no, you can't spend that much, they cut back to $7.20, and call it a cut.

It is not a cut, because they are still increasing the spending.

I know you get it. I know you know the difference between the debt and a yearly deficit, despite what you posted yesterday.

I guess you're now fully on board with the liberal mantra of "ignore the facts. Support Obama!".

no joe, no bo, nj..

No no jo...I don't get it...please explain it to me.

Based on facts, not how "it works in DC"

You raise the debt ceiling to pay for past Congressional appropriations and then cut spending by that amount or more and it is NOT a cut. Wow...you need to explain that logic to me with fact nor the hypothetical you wrote.

Where's the additional spending coming from? I missed that.

...and, please, don't ever pull try that liberal mantra, support Obama @!$%# in one of your posts to me again cause I don't read posts that have that tripe in it.

Real simple, Ira-

The debt hike is for this year, the cuts are over ten years.

It was expected that the debt would rise by ten trillion dollars- if these cuts are enacted, it will only rise a little over seven.

That's an INCREASE, Ira, not a cut.

And if you want me to stop using the liberal ranting line on you, Ira---

I suggest you knock off the liberal ranting.

no joe, no bo, nj..

Again...what debt hike?

These are appropriations we are paying for that were incurred in the past...10 or more years ago.

Where is the debt hike....we are paying our bills....that's not a debt hike.

Cash basis accounting...no joe. Paying bills incurred as far back as Clinton.

With no revenue increases, take a trillion and divide by 10. How much is that in cuts each year?

..liberal ranting? I don't mind being called a liberal..not one bit.

If you call facts ranting then we're done.

Great conversation, folks. Here's the lay of the land;

Conservatives have been driving tens of thousands of civil service workers out of their jobs every month for MONTHS.

In spite of massive amounts of money going into their pockets the "job creators" sit on the sidelines.

Additional workers aren't needed in the private sector because demand is slack.

Demand is slack because the middle class is too busy figuring out how to fend off bankruptcy to spend money.

The reduction in public workers and private contractors to the government is only making it worse.

Yet the Conservative solution is to route still more money to the rich.

I wonder why things aren't getting better?

People are still trying to make something out of nothing. "Shovel Ready" was just a term (appropriate for construction since they do still use shovels). The point they will not acknowledge is that most people with a functional brain stem knew that there was planning/implementation, funding etc that had to be done before one shovel was turned.

_____________________________________________________

"shovel ready" was the term used by Barry for two years, BEFORE he apparently discovered his functioning brain stem and was forced to publically admit that there was no such thing last October:

With unemployment hovering near 10 percent nearly two years after President Obama signed his economic stimulus package, Mr. Obama is acknowledging that, despite his campaign promises, "there's no such thing as shovel-ready projects."

The president gave that remark in an hour-long interview with the NY Times.

Sounds like YOU are trying to make nothing out of something.

LOL!!!

John B, Des Moines, IA..

Totally agree with you and your liberal ranting.

Back to it for me.

Good day all.

Anything other than a Navy Labradoodle or a Redheaded Chihuahua

Or a dumb a$$ Jo Bob Red Neck.

Fascinating discussion above.

But it occurs to me that it may be much ado about nothing.

Congress appears nowhere near this competent about economic issues. Particularly the fringe elements in congress. I am struck that increasingly it is not about economics at all. It is about destroying the government. Certainly it is about destroying the President. At all costs. It has been so stated by the GOPTP.

Job

I ripped and refuted the Labradoodle in #3.6.

Challenge or refute one thing in #3.6.

Or are you too intellectually limited to back up your #3.26?

Navy,

Since we know all know that there is no such thing as a "shovel ready job" my question is where did all that money allocated before for "shovel ready" jobs go. Since you claim that investment is needed for infrastructure (i.e. shovel ready jobs) lets use the money set aside earlier for that, it was around 800 billion dollars I believe. What....., thats money is gone, but we need more tax payer dollars for "shovel ready jobs"? How about this, once the government provides detailed (much more detailed than on the transparent websites, what a joke) documentation about who recieved that money and why, maybe the American taxpayer would be willing to condsider another stimulus package but until then HECK NO!!!!! I like most Americans suspect all that money is long gone and was used to repay democratic and union supporters of President Obama, and until someone can prove that that was not what the money was used for, I will be one voter who demands that there are no other Stimulus packages

Job

I ripped and refuted the Labradoodle in #3.6.

Challenge or refute one thing in #3.6.

Or are you too intellectually limited to back up your #3.26?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You aren't worth the waste my time Big Boy.

You aren't worth the waste my time Big Boy.

Funny, that's what the gutless and incompetent always say.

Anyway ...... next time, why don't you just shut-up and not "waste" your time repsonding with something you can't back up.

Janet:

The next Job Bill in my opinion needs to be targeted and the money must be used for its intended purpose - to create jobs. As far as the stimulus last, you had people like T-Paw and Perry take billions of dollars in Stimulus money and instead of using it as it was intended, they used it to cover their butts for their own State Budget Shortfalls.The rules and penalties on how the money was used were non existent. GOvernors took the money and did with it what they wanted - hence a lot never was used to create Jobs.

This time around I want the bill to be targeted and I want heavy penalities and strict rules for those governors that missuse the money, like make them pay it back, if they do not then they get no more federal money until they do.

There was a lot of misuse of those funds. That is what happens when you assume that people do the right thing, T-Paw and Perry just used it to make themselves look better. I think the clown in LA did something similar - he put it into the rainy day fund - how many jobs do you think that created.

@ John B. ~ Ditto Ira's comments. Spot-on.

@ Ira ~ My whole point was not that the M&A didn't create "efficiency," but rather that the M&A itself wasn't inherently necessary and won't benefit workers. You concede as much. Jobs aren't created, and even when growth resumes it will never get back to the combined numbers before the merger. Overall, there will be a net loss of jobs.

You accept the loss of jobs in a merger because of this so-called efficiency. But what kind of efficiency? Whatever happened to competition creating efficiencies? I thought that's what capitalism was all about? Guess not.

Mergers are totally about eliminating competition in order to maximize profit. The efficiency that occurs is totally related to that, and by definition, does not benefit either workers or the market as a whole. After mergers occur, especially on the scale we're discussing here, a totally free market, it's not, and let's not kid ourselves. That wasn't the point of the merger.

Once the market is no longer free, workers are also not free to market their services to another company simply because there is no other company.

And thus, they are forced to take whatever their employers hand out. If employers hand out anything at all. Nowadays, that's no joke.

Call it efficient, if you want, but capitalistic, it isn't. Except in the same way that totalitarianism was communism.

In name only.

@ Navy ~ Exactly so. The stimulus (a) wasn't enough to begin with; (b) relied too heavily on tax cuts, which historically were already known not to create jobs, and certainly resulted in reducing revenue, bringing us to where we are today; and (c) didn't require that the actual money spent be used directly for job creation or other purposes that would "stimulate" demand.

Hence the abuses by Governors Perry and Pawlenty, and no doubt others, who took the money, used it, as you say, to make themselves look good, passed their own deficits on to the rest of us, and then complained about those same deficits and claimed that the stimulus didn't work.

How could it have worked under those conditions?

In short, it wasn't truly Keynesian. What is missing in most discussions is the sad truth that, if it had been, it might have worked.

Anna Molly..

Quite simply, if Schering-Plough was profitable, they would not have been sold. They were losing money.

The acquiring company is looking to make money from the patents and other assets it acquires.

It sells everything it doesn't need, land, buildings, etc.

It lays off workers...saves the best...and ends duplication of effort.

There are no bailouts in business...only when government deems it so.

There is no too big to fail in business. Companies fail and if they are lucky, they are acquired. If not, the just file for bankruptcy protection.

It would be wonderful that after a sale or M&A both companies survived and no one lost their jobs.

I've rarely seen that happen....cause it's not feasible, impractical and one lousy business model.

Sorry AM...I know just where you are coming from...but on this one we need to agree to disagree.

Ira -

Since the Reagan Administration, which changed many essential laws involving how mergers and acquisitions are carried out, proitable companies have most certainly been sold. One reason is to "create shareholder value" by realizing very large benefits mainly to very large shareholders and bond holders. Another, which is actually quite a scandal is is too often ignored by the public, is to lay hands on a wad of cash in the pension programs of the firm being sold.

Reagan changed the law that prevented the purchasing or successor firm in a merger from touching the retirement programs. After the merger/acquisition, that cash account was free of all restrictions.

This was one of the most scandalous "reforms" of the generally corrupt and disgraceful Reagan Regime.

Anyway ...... next time, why don't you just shut-up and not "waste" your time repsonding with something you can't back up.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can back it all up. However, when I'm are dealing with a tea brain, it's not worth my time.

Quite simply, if Schering-Plough was profitable, they would not have been sold. They were losing money.

The acquiring company is looking to make money from the patents and other assets it acquires.

We don't disagree, Ira. That part is obvious, and anyone who knows anything about business knows this. So far we agree.

But the answer to whether this is good or bad, either for jobs or for REAL competition, seems pretty obvious. And I don't see you disputing that, my friend.

John A.-400474..

So you're assuming that all pension funds were adequately reserved for? Correct?

Did you check their balance sheet?

Are you assuming that Merck bought Schering-Plough to raid their pension funds?

Are you assuming there was evil intent?

Or John, could it simply be that Schering-Plough was losing money. That that they were purchased for the value of their drug patents, assets and on-going research projects?

Sometimes John, the simplest answer is the correct one.

Anna Molly..

Which is better..a company goes out of business and everyone gets fired or half the workforce is fired in an acquisition?

I'm going with let's save some jobs instead of losing all.

That's good for the economy AM...

Anna Molly

#3.34 - Agreed. This time around (assuming their is another Jobs Bill and the GOP/TP do not kill it) I hope they learned their lesson and make this bill targeted with rules and penalties for breaking them.

If it is a Jobs Bill then the monies must be used only on those things that create jobs. They cannot use the money to balance their budgets for shortfalls they created themselves most times through their own mismanagement and make the American People pay for it. I do not care who the governor is, this is stealing from the American People to cover their own incompetent deeds.

They were pretty good at saying the stimulus did not work while they were at the ground breaking ceremonies or the ribbon cutting with the over sized check taking the credit for something A)They did not do and B) They are trashing in their rhetoric. Just shows how big of a hypocrite they are and the people will know about T-Paw and Perry how they stole money from them to use it to pump up themselves.

John A.-400474

Here’s another horrendous act….deregulation that caused the financial crisis and initiated the too big to fail concept.

Has nothing to do with the Merck acquisition, but as long as you were throwing out bad laws that had nothing to do with that acquisition, I’d thought I’d add this one under the Clinton administration.

The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act (GLB), also known as the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999, enacted November 12, 1999) is an act of the 106th United States Congress (1999–2001). It was signed into law by President Bill Clinton and it repealed part of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933, opening up the market among banking companies, securities companies and insurance companies. The Glass–Steagall Act prohibited any one institution from acting as any combination of an investment bank, a commercial bank, and an insurance company.

The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act allowed commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies to consolidate. For example, Citicorp (a commercial bank holding company) merged with Travelers Group (an insurance company) in 1998 to form the conglomerate Citigroup, a corporation combining banking, securities and insurance services under a house of brands that included Citibank, Smith Barney, Primerica, and Travelers. This combination, announced in 1998, would have violated the Glass–Steagall Act and the Bank Holding Company Act of 1956 by combining securities, insurance, and banking, if not for a temporary waiver process. The law was passed to legalize these mergers on a permanent basis. GLB also repealed Glass–Steagall's conflict of interest prohibitions "against simultaneous service by any officer, director, or employee of a securities firm as an officer, director, or employee of any member bank."

Terrible, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm%E2%80%93Leach%E2%80%93Bliley_Act

JohnB (post 3.23) - please do keep on trying to dazzle us with BS on how the right is to be blamed for everything.

Ira - interesting sharing points for those that think business is evil.

Navy - while true that "trickle down" will occur for many support businesses the caveats still remain the same...

Infrastructure relies more on equipment and skilled labor than unskilled labor.

With todays job market, companies are more likely to look for existing job skills that relate to the job at hand.

Obama seems to think that residential home builder workers are suitable for the work. The flexible ones will be, the others not.

Any work created is temporary to any location and remains mobile in nature. Say hello to motel living and hopefully weekend trips home.

Infrastructure is also heavily dependent on regulatory and environmental concerns. A case in point was that alliant energy in 2007-2008 wanted to update the Marshalltown, IA and surrounding area power plant to a state of the art coal fired power plant that would meet EPA standards. That wasn't good enough for the environmentalists. They protested alliant energy right out of the upgraded facility. Hundreds of jobs that could have lasted 2 years never materialized. BTW - during 2008, many marshalltown motels were sold out as preliminary work was done. 2009, not so much.

The bottom line is that yes, more jobs will be created, but not likely in the numbers many seem to think. A good loader or lift operator replaces many tens of workers doing it by hand and with greater speed and safety. Believe me, todays companies are sticklers for safety today.

Can't disprove any of it so you ridicule instead, eh american?

@ Navy ~ How right you are. The irony being that if only they had used the money to create jobs and stimulate the economy, and then exercised a little patience, the money would have come to the government anyway, eventually, through increased tax revenues. And a lot of people's lives would have been improved. Once the recovery REALLY begins, it will fuel itself, and the jobs will be sustaining. Done effectively, the jobs created will eventually return more money to the treasury than was spent to create them.

THAT'S true Keynesianism; and that's NOT what we got.

But everyone wants what they want when they want it. No one ever takes the long view anymore.

THAT'S a modern corporatist concept.

Which is better..a company goes out of business and everyone gets fired or half the workforce is fired in an acquisition?

I'm going with let's save some jobs instead of losing all.

That's good for the economy AM...

The true goal of capitalism, Ira -- as opposed to venture capitalism -- is that BOTH companies survive and thrive.

Horizontal integration is a tool of monopolists.

I hope we can agree that monopolies are NOT good for the economy.

xxxx

Tom - since you bought up porn:

New Jersey Democrat resigns after nude photos circulated

"After an online sexting scandal brought down Congressman Anthony Weiner, the last thing a politician would even consider is sending a nude self-portrait over the Internet. Apparently not.

Cumberland County freeholder Louis Magazzu, 53, stepped down on Tuesday after nude photos he sent to a woman with whom he had a long online relationship were posted on the website of conservative blogger Carl Johnson, said Magazzu's lawyer Rocco Cipparone."

http://news.yahoo.com/jersey-democrat-resigns-nude-photos-circulated-210043325.html

Remember earlier this week, when I predicted Conservatives would be casting about for any unimportant nontroversy to deflect from the damage they're doing to the nation?

Well, there 'ya go.

John B:

You sure did call it. Glad I did not bet.

They have nothing and are totally lost. They are following a blind drummer.

President Obama 2012

And yet the incumbant obama is doing his hardest to campaign against this unknown blind drummer. LMAO! Guess he can't think of anything else important to do other than campaign.

Blind drummer in 2012 for potus.

Two unimportant nontroversies on one thread!! Anyone care to go for three?

And the radicals that just do not care (both sides) how much carnage and damage they do to this country just to win an ideological point and the he!! with the country.

I think the theme of President Obama's campaigning in the Midwest will be "for God's sake, give me a Democratic majority in the House in 2012."

The performance of the Teapublicans in the House over raising the debt ceiling was appalling. We nearly saw the U.S. go into default and lose its triple A credit rating. And for those who say our credit is hurt by the large debt we carry, I say, yeah, and imagine how much more damage would have occured if the ceiling hadn't been raised. As it is, the rest of the world thinks we're dysfunctional. This whole debacle was embarrassing and frightening.

"for God's sake, give me a Democratic majority in the House in 2012."

There you have it in a nutshell. Thank you Amy.

Are you a Red Sox fan? I'm finally going to my first Sox game this year on Saturday. I'm a little bored this season. I sure do miss the bad boys of baseball. The personalities that made it so much fun! But it looks like the Sox and NYY will make the playoffs. The American League is brutal this year. Very boring, with too many not so good teams.

I wish they would do away with the divisions. Each team play each other the same number of games. Back to basic as they say. And get rid of inter-league.

"I think the theme of President Obama's campaigning in the Midwest will be "for God's sake, give me a Democratic majority in the House in 2012."

Hi Amy,

A great bumper sticker.

You nailed it, Amy, good one!

Yeah - give him a democrat majority. They did SOOOOO well during 2008 and 2010. Increased debt, passage of a really socialist government program, forcing me to buy health insurance or face fines... Real American...

Excuse me while I go yak.

Brianb,

You don't understand the facts. If you are an adult that doesn't want health insurance, then you must not have any common sense. In an event of sickness, who would pay for your hospital bill of $100,000 or more if you don't have insurance?

Also, will you give up your "socialist government program" Social Security?

we had a dem majority in the house and senate 2006 til last year....since then we've experienced trillion plus deficits. biggest problem was coupling that with a dem president.....finally an effort to stop the hemoraging.....small step but it is a beginning

nico-383340

From 1995 to 2005 Republicans controlled both the House and Senate. Take a guess when most of the federal debt was rung up?

Here's a nice visualization of the political party make up of the Congress over time:

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/l/bl_party_division_2.htm

nico-383340

another good topic is: how did the federal debt get so big? Here are the factors that account for the growth of the debt since 2001:

http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/wwwpewtrustsorg/Fact_Sheets/Economic_Policy/drivers_federal_debt_since_2001.pdf

• Recessions or the business cycle (37%);
• Policies enacted by President Bush (33%);
• Policies enacted by President Bush and supported or extended by President Obama (20%); and
• New policies from President Obama (10%).

You really want to stop the hemoraging you need to go back to where the problem is. The problem is unfunded tax cuts and unfunded wars. End both the tax cuts and the wars.

It's kinda like if the liver is the problem, why operate on your left arm? Shouldn't the cause of our problem be fixed first and then sort out the last republican disaster without death by a 1000 cuts.

Instead the conservatives on this board think that continuing the same path of unfunded tax cuts and unfunded wars that republicans put in place should just continue. They don't see any harm. Bush didn't do anything it was them democrats. The hemorrhaging goes on as they never even got close to the real problem.

When Senator Obama spoke up against the bush's plan of spending us into oblivion no one listened and magically it is now President Obama's deficit. Conservatives are always forgetting that bush kept his little wars off the debt books (think Enron). When they came on the debt, bush's wars became Obama's debt.

Handy little lie about Obama's trillion plus deficits, and they love to tell it over and over makes you wonder if they lie on purpose or just haven't a clue what's really going on.

Well said Anna Molly and Americans First. We're seeing the continued, slow motion failure of the American economy as a direct result of three decades when the conventional wisdom claimed Republicans were smart stewards of the economy. Maybe that was true when people liked Ike, but with the rise of Supply Side economics all that ended.

Our 30 year love affair with Laissez Faire has brought the same result as every similar flirtation with the same...failure.

Thanks John,

I read these post for years during lunch and breaks and was unable to post being at work. Most of the Internet was blocked, but allowed us First Read.

Due to that I have a hard time leaving a lie unchallenged for someone to read.

I love all the liberals on this board and appreciate all the hard work exposing lies.

Obama 2012

Amy, you mean like we had in 2007-2010. That sure worked out well, didn't it. 1st half GDP in 2011 of what? About .8%? And to think that the 2007 - 2008 democrat majority led us blindly down the road to recession by keeping silent. Oh, the humanity of it all!

Notice that when President Clinton led us through a thriving economy it wasn't him, it was the Republican Congress. When President GW Bush led us into recession it wasn't him, it was the Democratic Congress. When the economy starts to tank months after Republicans take over the House of Representatives it isn't Congress, it's President Obama.

Conservatism isn't about consistency of thought or principle, it's about finding messages to sell a collection of policies beneficial to the rich.

amy b. thanks for the links, I went through them (briefly). I didn't want to get too granular here but found from your first link the visualization of political control through the years that we shouldn't have any one party control at any time. Per the second on PEW research the deficit/debt numbers have exploded over the last 10 years however the condensed version in your response ommited spending on many other fronts as though it were a foregone conclusion this country should support at all costs any domestic spending/policy as well as any international mistakes like the two wars which by the way were funded annually by congress. Per John B in Des Moines; this economy tanked 4 years ago and hasn't recovered so you can't just blame the house of reps over the last 10 months. Well put by you but totally preposterous. The conflict with anyone's logic is thier predelection to thier own opinion and it's tough to get away from your own bias even if it is somewhat well founded. These are tough questions in a tough futures "market". All we really have is one vote and of late have allowed that to be watered down by our leaders.

nico, I take your criticism as given but you need to look at the bigger picture. This isn't about the last 10 months anymore than it's "all Bush's fault." This is about 30 years of deregulation and upward redistribution of wealth. Gradually starving the middle class has led to an economy that isn't resilient, which is why we've bounced back from the last two recessions very slowly. Massive upward wealth distribution has given the very rich so much money they can make incredibly speculative investments, the sort of risky things that can cause serious damage to the lives of others, with little danger to themselves. Couple that with deregulation on a large scale and we've seen a series of big, speculative bubbles beginning with the Savings & Loan scandal of the 1980s and most recently the derivatives bubble that tanked the WORLD economy when it burst. Then for good measure season with an inadequately funded government, one that deficit spends instead of putting money away for the future when times are good.

The current House majority would double down on that bet instead of learning from our mistakes. That's my point...the current Conservative Movement isn't just a continuation but an escalation of failure.

Johnb, again very well presented. And yes the bind we are in is a result of 50 years of bad policy, creative investing, creative spending and creative buying that has cost the US jobs, markets and possibly our future. You do understand that it was lending regs and policy that led to bad loans being packaged as hi qualtity investments and spread through the banks and our investments that led to the derivatives mess. No argument there, as I said though the devil is in the details and everyone from congress to lenders to marketing to investment firms were complicit. This country has a deficit in leadership and respect. It's cultural and it's been a group effort on the part of all of us. As you say we haven't considered our future. I'm sure there is a book out there somewhere speaking to the American psyche and the loss of reason and values. It's endemic and it is happening again.

Thanks, nico. A very enjoyable conversation even though we don't entirely see things the same way.

Pat:

Kudos. Pat Buchannan is another one of those republican failures that still think they are of some importance. Him and Peggy Noodles have long since past their usefulness for anything and they should be retired.

btw, does Pat Buchanan call everyone "boy" or just President Obama?

It's the closest he can come to what he really... really... wants to call him!

MSNBC should put the old racist dinosaur out to pasture...

He's an embarrassment to the network!

Feisty & US Navy: Pat Buchanan, Peggy Noonan and Halperin are disgraceful. But they are hardly in the minority.

Please keep supporting President Obama. Don't let anyone get you down. You are the base. The base that will do everything possible to keep a Democrat in the White House.

You aren't alone. It's just the loud mouths that get all the attention. Both sides.

I'm just sorry to see Rev. Al get it from fake Democrats. He is a man who has been at this his entire life. He didn't just decide to become a Democrat in '08 when the GOP blew this country up.

The base that will do everything possible to keep a Democrat in the White House.

I'm right beside you Pat!

We are ALL paying the price now, thanks to voter complacency in 2010!

Pat---if anyone ever needed proof that elections matter, we see the results at work now. I hope the base is energized to get out and do as Amy says----elect Democrats in 2012.

We need to do whatever we can to ensure the complacency does not carry over to the next election. We need the House back and must protect the Senate.

Pat, Boston, MA:

Ordinarily, I go right down the line with your posts, but I think you are overlooking the incredible change that has swept across the political front in the last few decades. Just as the terms "conservative" and "liberal" have been completely subverted and shredded, so it is with the parties. That President Obama is reviled by both Republicans and many Democrats is illustrative of that fact.

I don't know how I'd characterize Republicans these days. A great deal of what we like to think of as progressive thought has come from Republicans in the past. You sure won't find it today. Even "mainstream" Republicans have moved to the right and tremble when the math-illiterates of the TEA Party start screeching. That's not loyal opposition.

I don't know what to make of Democrats. The "safety net" we like to talk about is generally a creation of Democrats, yet they refuse to acknowledge that Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are going to require drastic modifications to remain financially viable. It's really hard to quarrel with those who look at Democrats as the party that encourages dependency.

And then - along comes the brown guy. Somehow, I can't shake the feeling that until he actually took office, he was not given the information he should have had. I firmly believe that is at the root of his failure to keep a number of campaign promises. The fact that we know the previous administration was packed with duplicitous liars and thieves bolsters my belief.

He was handed an economy that had been systematically looted and pillaged by the previous administration and their corporate and mega-rich masters. Anyone who dares to tell this truth is vilified. Well, the truth is we are where we are because of the Bush Administration, which was almost the final assault in the war on government that was declared by Reagan and fought by his successors.

So what does Obama do? Well, this guy has the nerve to tell the truth. When polls show that 2 out of 3 respondents want a balanced budget and at the same time 4 out of 5 respondents say don't touch my junk, there's a real problem.

This isn't about Democrats voting for Obama. This is about honestly considering ALL the candidates. Right now - and frankly I suspect for some years to come - absolutely no one offers a better chance for this nation's future than that brown guy. Regardless of your chosen label - Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative - anyone who makes an honest and thorough assessment of the candidates will vote for Obama.

The only reason I can see for "voter complacency" in 2010 is that there was nothing for the voters on the left to be charged up about. The left and the independents have been let down by this empty-suited failed president and all of his broken campaign promises. What a joke.

Pat, Boston, MA

Feisty & US Navy: Pat Buchanan, Peggy Noonan and Halperin are disgraceful. But they are hardly in the minority.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

No, they represent a cross-section of political thought. Noonan (Reagan) and Buchanan (Nixon) were both presidential speechwriters and Halperin wrote one of the definitive books about the 2008 campaign

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peggy_Noonan

http://www.amazon.com/Game-Change-Clintons-McCain-Lifetime/dp/0061733636

Remember when everyone made fun of the fact that Dick Cheney had all of the TV's in his residence tuned to a "friendly" station?

Looks like he has a lot of company on the left and the right here. Mark Halperin is a not a conservative journalist.

David Frum is not a liberal journalist. Grown-ups learn how to deal with criticism without lashing out.

The left and the independents have been let down by this empty-suited failed president and all of his broken campaign promises. What a joke.

What about all of the promises he has succeeded on? Darn good Job Mr. President. Thank You.

The disrespect given to the President is beyond me---Buchanan isn't the only one and I am appalled that MSNBC keeps him around, along with his pal Halperin. I change channels whenever they are on.

Some of you must drink 50 gallon drums of kool-aid every morning to be that far out of touch with reality.

Obama’s approval numbers hit all-time low

"Just 40 percent of Americans say they approve of Obama’s performance as president. That is down three percentage points from Thursday. 50 percent say they do not approve of the job he is doing.

Just 41 percent of the public said they approved of the way Obama was handling the debt-ceiling negotiations, while 52 percent disapproved, according to another Gallup poll released Thursday.

Obama has also lost ground against a generic Republican challenger — getting 41 percent of the vote when matched with an unnamed Republican who polled 40 percent.

Obama’s approval rating is below that of former President Bill Clinton’s lowest approval rating during the government shutdowns of 1995."

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-approval-numbers-hit-time-low-185402373.html

Sharpton is a racist mofo from way back.........so he has a problem with Buchanan calling Obummer, Sharpton's boy.....too bad get over it...it's an expression like "blackhole" or "niggardly" that only dimwitted bufoons like Sharpton and his ilk don't know the meaning of........what a joke these MSNBCer's are.......

And the GOP/TP numbers are at record lows. Yes President Obama's numbers are in the tank, but the GOP/TP numbers are even lower than his on average by 8-10 points in most polls.

I can't believe they allow the Rev Sharpton to host any program on any channel. He is nothing but a race baiter and liar. Can you spell Twana Brawley???? It would be bad enough if that were the only instance of his lies, but he is known for racial issues when there is none.

As bad as this thing has been TWICE AS MANY approve of the President's handling of the debt ceiling crisis as approve of the Republicans.

It takes real talent to undercut the low approval GW Bush achieved at the end of his presidency, but congressional Republicans are up to the challenge.

I don't think his numbers mean we want another republican for president so the rich can finish America off.

I think this next two years of austerity brought to us by the tea party with their loyalty to the rich will see people changing. I see what happened in Wisconsin happening all over the country. The people are no longer comfortable and secure and the republicans are proud to announce they got 98% of what they wanted.

I see all the voter suppression as proof they don't believe they can win with the people's support.

They can only hope they have enough people fooled with this smaller government crap to trick people into turning our country over to rich.

Then God came down and gave the republicans an 11th commandment...... Thou shalt protect the rich above all others.

Too bad the tea party only has tea leaves for brains.

I agree completely, Americans First. The numbers aren't great even though they're very close to the numbers Reagan and Clinton pulled in at the same point in their presidencies. The GOPTP is working so hard to tear down their own approval, however, that it certainly helps.

Terrific comment, Pat, Boston.

Cenk's comment you mention are why I eventually stopped watching him on MSNBC. At first he did a nice job but then he sounded belligerent all the time, turned every discussion into a street fight. His constant negative rants lost this viewer.

Pat Buchanan has made a similar "your boy" comment before. This time Rev Al Sharpton refused to let it sit there without a protest. Good for Rev Al.

nycguy. Dimwits are those who find such "dog whistle" comments acceptable. Buchanan knew exactly what he was saying--it was no slip of the tongue, it was intentional.

At first I wasn't too sure about Al Sharpton hosting that hour but he has gotten better as he adjusts to TV; he will continue to improve and I intend to watch. He has fought hard for equality and justice. He didn't always choose the right fight but he's determined to work hard for those he feels are not given a fair deal. For that, he deserves credit.

Don't forget about Martin Bashir...

I wasn't so sure when he started but he's come a long way baby! lol

NYCGUY:

We all know what "boy" means and it is derogatory and racist. In fact so is "mofo" short for MotherF....er. Look it up in the Urban Dictionary or have you already thinking nobody else would. You sir are also a racist when you defend people who used this type of language.

At least we know what you are now.

fancy, the repubs did not win this last round. Obama got his continuance past the next election. The reduction to debt/deficit is almost pointless and still shows debt increasing by possibly another 10 trillion over the 10 years the supposed reduction is rolled out. The real losers are us while these politicians continue to rack up lifetime income, benefits and frequent flyer miles. And by the way obama gets a little more traction for the next election.

Fantastic link, Da Noid. I'm inclined to listen to the only guy who seemed to be able to get anything done in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Anna Molly,

THank you for the update from Wisconsin. The whole world is watching the Republican anti-middle class agenda playing out there.

Anna Molly:

Nice job and good morning.

Next week is the big week in WI with 6 elections for State Senators. The whole country is going to be watching this and we will see if what has happened this week in DC has any effect.

These guys(GOP/TP) have really stepped off he deep end and some cannot swim either. The FAA "Hostage" situation has not been resolved and will not be for at least 5-6 weeks. 4,000 FAA employees out of work and about 90,000 construction workers as well. We also have to look forward to about another million jobs lost due to this BS Debt fiasco, which will further increase unemployment, reduce revenues at a time we need them most, increase claims for UI, Food Stamps and Medicaid. More people will be defaulting on their mortgages causing more harm to the housing market etc.

It just never ends with these people. They (GOP/TP) are betting the farm on this country failing, period And they have the nerve and arrogance to pretend to be Americans? I think not.

anna, thanks for the update,

Unbelievalbe the amount of money being spent. Maybe they should just stand on the street corner in Hudson WiI and other towns and hand out $100.00 dollar bills to voters, at least the money will be kept in the local economy.!

Anna Molly----thanks for the info on the spending. That is truly mind boggling. Makes you wonder how much they are spending elsewhere and why this isn't reported more widely. Well, maybe we know why.

Anna Molly:

Thank you for your continual "insider's point of view" on the Wisconsin saga. It's very informative to hear how this is all playing out, even though it's like watching a train wreck when you consider just how much collateral damage there is.

Amy B:

To be honest Amy, the world isn't watching Wisconsin. Well okay, maybe parts of the non-US world are watching things. Yet within the US, I wouldn't say that's the case. The truth of the matter is that the American people don't care. If the media isn't serving people current sound bites on a silver platter, then the American people stay happily uninformed because reseaching important current political events just isn't worth their time.

I hate that I sound so cynical. However that seems to be the general truth from all that I'm hearing in Ohio. Then based on the general apathy and ignorance displayed by the American public during the much televised issue of the Debt Ceiling Crisis, it's pretty much a given that most people are clueless about lesser televised Wisconsin matter and will remain so until their own states have passed similar policies. Even then, people will remain oblivious up until the point that these new policies destroy their lives in some way. Only at that point will people looking around in shock as they wonder how this all happened.

Good Morning Anna Molly:

Thanks for the update in Wisconsin. 6 days and counting.

Go just one step further on what Anna Molly has put out here. If the Big Money boys and Megabuck Monstrocorp has that kind of money to sink into a single state recall election........HOW MUCH MONEY IS REALLY AT STAKE?

This tiny class of ultra-rich who are devoid of morals and ethics will not be happy until they have reduced the vast majority of this country's citizens to serfdom.

Step back and look at this objectively. Clearly, the lower class is fighting for survival. Yes, like it or not, this is about class warfare.

Thanks Anna. I hope that some day we will see these Koch brothers go to jail.

Anna Molly, thanks for the update. The wealthy elites are really putting everything they can into their effort to remake America RIGHT NOW. Their sense of urgency is really interesting to me...why the sudden need to do it all at once?

USN, thanks for bringing the FAA numbers into the picture as well. Whatever the jobs numbers turn out to be for this month let's keep them in mind. Those numbers would be 94,000 higher if not for the GOPTP war against worker rights.

Plus any additional public sector layoffs being forced upon the economy by Republicans.

Thanks to all for the kind words. My goal is to keep this in play around here. I wish we had others who could give us reports on what is happening in other states.

And now back to the grind. Later, my friends. And thanks again for stopping by.

What was it that Dan Rather used to say? Courage.

Not a lot to report from here, AM. The legislature is out of session and a Democratic Senate helped prevent the worst abuses that were attempted.

During the lat 20 years of Republican Presidents we have witnessed the KILLING OF THE UNIONS, They are still going on today, that is why we have no FAA construction Budjet. The Politicians all yell about creating Jobs and then CUT Jobs. I assume they think we are all think we are dummies.

The Republicans eliminated the Middle Class which was made up of good honest workers. Today we have people Elected to the House who BOUGHT the seat with PAC Funds and/or Private Money. Count the number of newRPepublicans who have zero Political experience at the local level.. They have Millions of dollars in assets but no Government experience.

It will get much worse in 2012 now that the Supreme Court has decided that a Corporation is a Person. Yes they can contribute any amount of Money they want to any Super Pack. I will be a blood bath.

Anna Molly:

Not much going on in Vermont. Our Single Payer Health Care is progressing nicely. IBM is hiring and all the road crews are out fixing stuff.

@ Navy ~ Sounds like heaven to me. I'd say there's plenty going on in Vermont.

@ Carl ~ Thank you for your comments. You are spot-on.

@ John B ~ Lucky you.

All I see on these blogs is what appears to be a concerted effort by libs to inundate these blogs with lib only diatribe as well as some lib only links.....things used to be pretty well balanced between points of view but of late there is a definite tilt to the opinion. Are we gearing up for the "king's" next electronic assault?

No concerted effort here, nico. Just my own thoughts. No one tells me what to post.

Who tells you?

Pat: Outstanding analysis!!

Our President is light-years ahead of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner. And while I'm at it. light years ahead of the media who are attempting to report on the debt details.

Pat:

Outstanding job. You are on a roll today. You said it much better than I could.

Thank you Ron & US Navy: Just to be clear, I didn't write this.

As far as President Obama vs. McConnell/Boehner - yes, I do believe he is light years ahead of them. The problem I'm having is President Obama getting re-elected and having again to deal with Boehner/TParty.

We need Nancy Pelosi back, otherwise the circus will continue. She stood tall during this manufactured crisis.

Ron, sorry I couldn't meet up with you guys. Perhaps next summer I'll fly out to meet with you and Feisty for dinner. btw, where is Beverly?

I'm not a Las Vegas type person, but I would like to meet up with you at some point during the campaign next summer.

Pat:

We do not know what happened to Beverly?

I would like to meet up with you at some point during the campaign next summer.

Me too Pat!

It sounds like a plan! ;o)

I've been reaching out to Bev & when I hear back from her, I'll let you know.

Interesting....While I didn't vote for the guy, a huge part of me thinks that politically he did an end run around The Speaker and Senate Minority Leader...we'll see.

Having said that, I just have never gotten a real feeling of confidence in the leadership abilities of The President not like President Clinton whom I didn't vote for but he at least gave an auroa of both confidence and competance. I'm not GOP/TP troll, I'm trying to look at this from an independent prespective though I do identify myself as mostly Conservative Libertarian.

I know what to do!!!

Gather up all of the poor, the criminals, the alcoholics, and the mentally ill and export them to Canada!!!

Problems solved!!!

Wow. Just wow. This was so ver insightful. Great job, and keep sharing.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Inscribed on the Statue of Liberty.

Words we seem to have forgotten in this me-first society... Sad.

Thanks for the reminder, fielden.

Q: What is the Republican plan to create jobs?

A. Give us more money and we promise to hire some "legal" domestic help for a change.

Q. When are they going to implement it?

As soon as you give us the money. We promise.

Q. What do Republicans suggest the unemployed and underemployed do in the interim?

Eat cake. And volunteer to help in a food bank of a homeless shelter.

You'll feel much better.

Red Queen apologizes for her boo-boo.

What do Republicans suggest the unemployed and underemployed do in the interim?

First they need to realize and understand that Obama and the Democrats have lied to them about all the jobs they said they'd create.

Next they need to campaign and vote for more Republicans and Tea Party candidates, and get rid of that Keynesian currently sitting in the White House.

Next they need to campaign and vote for more Republicans and Tea Party candidates, and get rid of that Keynesian currently sitting in the White House.

So the plan basically still amounts to, "Vote Republican or we won't give you any jobs!"

Still doesn't make for a great campaign slogan.

Joanna1, Your lack of imagination is apparent, and your empathy is non-existent.

Have you ever known someone who is unemployed, looking for a job ?

Joanna - And what about the jobs the Republicans promised that got the Tea Party elected? Everything the Republicans have done since they took over the House has been jobs killing including this Debt Ceiling bill which is a bad piece of legislation.

JoAnna:

and get rid of that Keynesian currently sitting in the White House.

Sure. If we also get rid of the one sitting in the State House in Texas.

And substitute some REAL Keynesians.

JoAnnaSmith1

What do Republicans suggest the unemployed and underemployed do in the interim?

First they need to realize and understand that Obama and the Democrats have lied to them about all the jobs they said they'd create.

Next they need to campaign and vote for more Republicans and Tea Party candidates, and get rid of that Keynesian currently sitting in the White House.

Notice that JoAnnaSmith dishonestly avoided the question and just let loose with another spurt of her bile and venom.

The only jobs program the teabaggers have is a jobs DESTRUCTION program, as demonstrated by their blocking of FAA funding, which has put 70,000 private sector employees out of work, put on furlough another 4,000 federal workers who are not collecting air fare taxes which is costing taxpayers 1 billion dollars a month, and endangering the air travelers by stopping badly needed airport safety improvement projects. The only thing these extremists know how to do is destroy, and they're very good at what they do.

Nash--they plan to use their 5 week vacation to come up with the plans....or maybe not, they'll be on vacation after all their hard work renaming post offices. The lost jobs and revenue from their intransigence over the FAA won't bother them at all.

Jaw-dropping statistic in yesterday's LA Times - manufacturing accounts for a paltry 11% of the current U.S. economy...........only 11%!! We can argue and bicker about who killed who but both sides must agree that in order for our economy to recover, we gotta start making things.

And, of course there must be a market to buy the things we make.

Now....how to make that happen.......

AM, I really wish I was as warm hearted compassionate as you. If only I could be like you and donate all my time and money (which I know you do) to feed the people in need instead I walk right by them in my designer suit yelling to him get a job. If only I could get the $80 million Soros spent last year on social media, can you imagine the people that would feed in Wisconsin? If I could only learn how to tear up like you do when I walk by that child with holes in his shoes instead of asking him to get lost when he asks for assistance. Its just so easy for me to kick the neighbors dog rather than be like you and make sure all those poor humane shelter animals find a home. If only I could get any small part of the hundreds of millions of dollars the unions spent just hear in Illinois on getting their local politicians reelected because just think of how many more low income housing projects like Cabrini Green and the Robert Taylor Homes I could build. If only I could find just a small part of me that wasnt scrooge because then I would gladly hand over like you do half of my income in federal and state taxes instead of crying when my hard earned money leaves. I tried to feel bad like you do when I cut back on my spending causing layoffs and unemployment for others but I just couldnt because I was thinking at least I got mine. I think I am a lost cause AM as no matter how hard I try, I dont think I am ever going to be as wonderful and compassionate as you but I promise to keep trying ok?

Kirk-2957282

If only I could get any small part of the hundreds of millions of dollars the unions spent just hear in Illinois on getting their local politicians reelected because just think of how many more low income housing projects like Cabrini Green and the Robert Taylor Homes I could build.

If only I could get my hands on the BILLIONS of dollars corporations spend on financing the far-right propaganda mills they call "think tanks" and lying attack political ads they put on TV nonstop, just think of how many more of those low-income people could get good educations and good-paying jobs so they wouldn't HAVE to live in those miserable housing projects.

I agree Houston and if we all hold hands and sing We are the World and then take all the profit from every evil corporation and share it with all of those in need and take all wealth from the successful and give to those in need we could have one big socialistic happy society right? I bet thats worked out many times before. Those big bad evil corporations dont deserve it. Ronald McDonald is so evil and so is Sara Lee can you believe those hot dog buns? They shouldnt make a dime but they should still pay all their employees at least 100 dollars an hour regardless of what they do and toss in free medical care while your at it. We could get rid of all colleges and just have one big national government college because why try harder if we all get paid the same so we will just learn the government way. Think of the money we could save. Your brilliant houston why didnt anyone think of socialism before I am sure it will work really well. For some reason I never see any billions of dollars on right wing think tanks coming from corporations? What drugs have you been smoking? Show me the annual report of some corp where they donated billions to right wing think tanks ok? I agree on the nonstop political ads, that one that lied about the Ryan plan and shows a senior being thrown off the cliff was so bad and so factually wrong. It should have been an old person throwing a baby off the cliff as he is heading to the golf course as the seniors leave this spending entitlement debt to our youngsters.

Kirk-2957282

I agree Houston and if we all hold hands and sing We are the World and then take all the profit from every evil corporation and share it with all of those in need and take all wealth from the successful and give to those in need we could have one big socialistic happy society right?

I guess you can't read too well. I didn't say anything about taking anyone's profit. I only said that the money that corporations sink into bogus "think tanks" and lying political ads could be better spent on education for people that could then contribute more to society, even if you despise them as you obviously do.

You have yet to provide me any proof of this right wing think tank contribution issue. I was listening well but your like all progressives who think throwing money at an issue without addressing the underlying causes or behaviorial choices is the solution. Do you know how much money has already been spent on education over the last 25 years without moving the achievement gap even an inch? Would it occur to you that maybe other factors like parental involvement, DNA, cultural, behaviorial choices like teen pregnancy play a bigger role than money? Yes you want to eliminate the meritocracy in favor of a union like socialistic environment where personal responsibility, upward mobility are eliminated for the common good of all. Yes I despise them couldnt you tell from my ronald mcdonald rant? Do you have a dog I could kick for you?

Think tank funding?

Heritage Foundation http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heritage_Foundation

Cato Institute http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Cato_Institute

Americans for Tax Reform http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Americans_for_Tax_Reform

American Enterprise Institute http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Enterprise_Institute

American Crossroads http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_Crossroads

Crossroads GPS http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Crossroads_gps

Obviously Conservatives believe that throwing money at government will buy it for themselves.

Thanks you made my point for me. These think tanks have not been funded by billions from public corporations. Heritage Foundation got $1.5 million which is a pittance. Foundations and individuals contribute not evil corporations.

Kirk, you never disappoint my expectation that you'll dismiss facts that disagree with your ideological position.

Anyone who's having trouble understanding the concept of "confirmation bias" can just watch Kirk for a while. It'll all become clear.

What are you talking about? I looked up those cites and they clearly show that public corporations dont give billions to right wing think tanks as Houston stated. I dont have an idealogical position as I look at corporations as neutral. I disagreed with Houston and you obviously thought your evidence backed him up which it clearly didnt. So explain to me this confirmation bias thing again? Then explain how it doesnt apply to you? Have you ever worked for a public corporation? I have and have actually taken 4 corporations public as an employee of the public corporation or as the issuing company. At no point were any of these corporations evil. Evil people working for them yes but certainly not evil corporations.

Love to see a Republican getting the Palin treatment for a change. The woman has a little pocket knife for a tongue and really knows how to stick the knife in.

Palintology: 1. The act of making yourself seem intelligent to no one but your mirror. 2. Willing to put yourself in front of a camera but having nothing intelligent to say. 3. Trying to make yourself appear intelligent esp. to a minority who themselves are ignorant. 4. A fake and phony individual.

Tom

Congratulations you just described the majority of the liberals on this vine, especially a few in particular.

classic.

Tony-- Do you mean the George W. Bush Debt? Caused by unfunded wars and Tax cuts to the top 1%?

Time to stop justifying current stupidity with the stupidity of the past. This "he did it mommy so I am justified in doing it" is what little children use as an excuse. Welcome to Obama's world.

The wars were and are wrong. So tell me, why didn't Obama pull the plug on both of the wars? Why did he get us involved in another conflict? Bush was responsible for about 6 trillion of debt in 8 years. Obama is responsible for almost 3 trillion in almost 3 years. Oh yea, I forgot Obama has zero responsibility for anything. Interesting that Obama and his supporters bames Bush for his spending all the while spending more.

Tony-- Thanks for admitting that Bush was responsible for 6 trillion of the debt. And your point is?

marshal - I agree with you, however, where do you get your information that the Soviets are funding the Tea Party?

marshal, since you are so into class warfare, why don't you just move to a nation that believes in socialism?

You know, like Russia or China? Oh wait, Russia collapsed and China embraced capitalism despite their "socialism" claims. Well, there's always Cuba. OOOPS, Cuba has decided that capitalism is the ONLY way their nation can survive too. Oh well, there's always Venezuela. After all, since Chavez embraces socialism there, and it's so obvious that Venezuela is a "wealthy" nation, they'll have no problems making sure you receive "equality" there.

You know, where no matter how much you actually EARN by WORKING, you can sit on your butt and draw your "entitlements" for doing absolutely nothing just by complaining.

Cheryl - You are sadly misinformed about Russia. I just returned from a trip there. They are a free market society working their butts off for an average $12,000 a year while supporting their elderly parents. Gasoline is $4 a gallon and cars are all tiny. Wherever possible there was a vegetable and/or a flower garden. I didn't see any fat people there. They are very family and friends oriented and treated me well and with respect. I found the country beautiful, the cities clean as a whistle, the architecture wonderful, their subway system is beautiful - like a museum with murals, sculpture, marble, chandeliers, etc. - beautiful cathedrals, gardens and museums. The food was excellent and the people charming and very sharing of their life's experience under Communism, the transition to a free market society, and how they get along these days.

CherylLM

marshal, since you are so into class warfare, why don't you just move to a nation that believes in socialism?

Quit your lying, Cheryl. There was nothing about "class warfare" in that post. Marshal was just pointing out the FACTS.

CherylLM:

Actually China doesn't follow the model of American capitalism. If you ever want to learn a bunch about the situation over there, I'd suggest reading all of the Behind the Wall: _______— articles here on MSNBC. There are times when the comments section is even more informative than the article.

From what I've been able to understand, China operates on a hybrid form of capitalism. Basically large companies act like joint ventures between American "big business" and governmental "socialist" control. The capitalist half acts like a standard corporation as they try to expand their business and make increasing profits to their investors. Then the government half basically makes sure that such decisions don't affect the Chinesse public in a negative matter. While I'm sure that ever instance of this situation isn't perfect, the Chinesse government has effectively created a form of checks and balances in their own "big business" environment. Also if I've understood things properly, the government is basically like a large shareholder. Government money will flow into the business and they'll also get a cut of the profits.

To be honest, their system of hybrid capitalism seems to be really working. While the people of the USA would call implimenting such a system as "socialism", history has provided countless examples that completely unrestrained capitalism will destroy itself. I would be open to the USA trying to mirror the Chinesse system of hybrid capitalism. It will never happen in this country since "big business" basically owns the government, but some of China's current policies are good food for thought.

Wiser with Age:

Your wisdom is duly noted. Kudos - outstanding post and got my vote.

This is the same china with;

5% annual inflation

Highest cancer per-capita rate in the world

7500/year income per-capita

A complete and total reliance on exports to drive their economy

a 4.3T national GDP in a nation of 1.3 Billion people

Unemployment in the 8-10% range in urban areas

Rampant poverty still existent in rural areas

China is no society to look up to. It's more of an example of what happens when government is co-conspiring with big business at an ACTIVE and OBVIOUS level to grow an economy at the expense of the population.

CherylLM

Obama "pivots" to jobs, AGAIN.

Of course that just means a continuation of what's been going on the past two and a half years with that incompetent fool.

And what, exactly, is Obama supposed to do to create jobs that he can get through the teabagger-infested Congress? Cut taxes on the rich - uh, I mean "job creators" - some more? Slash the budget again by a few trillion? Get rid of more regulations on agribusiness so that they can put as much E. Coli in their food products as the market will bear?

Please, give us the benefit of your great wisdom and explain what Obama should do. A grateful nation will thank you.

Cheryl: More fundraisers for re-election, lots of speeches that don't say anything, and the usual demonization and attacks on those that don't toe the line.

Sounds remarkably like the Tea Party...

Houston.

Why don't you actually tell the FACTS?

The Dow is in a "tailspin" because of the ECONOMY. Even your talking heads at MSNBC are telling the truth about that, despite your attempt at LYING. Unemployment is UP, the economy is FLAT, layoffs are at a new HIGH again for July, and all your "leader" in Washington can do is talk about raising taxes on the job creators in this country.

New regulations are kicking in, costing even small businesses, who are either laying off, or not hiring. New "green" energy costs are HIGHER, costing businesses BILLIONS of dollars, causing layoffs, or again no new hiring. The corporate tax, the second highest in the world, has driven entire INDUSTRIES overseas, something that you continue to blame Republicans for, even though just Monday even Democrats in the Senate acknowledged that the tax was too much and costing this nation jobs.

The same ignorant voters who fell for "making history" will fall for just about anything.

You are correct about the economy........... but is is on to being reelected. The economy can help itself!

That is what is troubling to me, Houston---that people believe these Tea Party people and still vote for them.

CherylLM

Houston.

Why don't you actually tell the FACTS?

The Dow is in a "tailspin" because of the ECONOMY. Even your talking heads at MSNBC are telling the truth about that, despite your attempt at LYING.

You're one of the slimiest liars around here. You've really got nerve calling other people liars. The stock market reacted to bad economic news, and the Mitch McConnell's Satan sandwich was almost as bad as default. Here's an article written BEFORE the wretched deal with the devil was done:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43976115/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/

After debt deal, economy in deeper peril

It's not over. Not by a long shot.

If the Senate Tuesday approves an 11th-hour budget deal to lift the debt ceiling, as expected, and head off a national default, forget those high-five photo ops and victorious press conferences. The spectacle of partisan bickering by a dysfunctional government will continue to weigh on consumers, investors and business for months to come.

The voters who put those Tea Party people in Congress ought to be ashamed of themselves!

It is now apparent that these Representatives and Senators who signed the Norquist pledge have sold their souls to the devil. So many noted economist have said the Job Killing bill touted by the Republicans have made the economy worst, not better. And that crying fool Boehner had the nerve to brag about "getting 98% of what he wanted." Imagine how much damage a 100% would have inflicted.

Sheila, MD

So many noted economist have said the Job Killing bill touted by the Republicans have made the economy worst, not better.

I heard one economist say that this debt deal might actually cost hundreds of thousands of jobs. It's a deal with the Devil, alright. He's making crud sandwiches for everyone except the "job creators" who don't actually create any jobs, except places where there's cheap labor willing to work long hours under lousy conditions for lousy pay.

Here's another "liar" who thinks the debt ceiling debacle may have badly hurt the economy:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44005603/ns/business-motley_fool/

Market meltdown: What's going on?

Here's something to chew on: If stocks fall today, it will be the longest losing streak in 33 years. The Dow has dropped eight days in a row. Not even during the depths of the 2008 and 2009 financial crisis did we suffer nine consecutive down days.

What's going on?

The correct answer: Who knows? The market is never predictable.

What seems likely, though, is that the recent debt-ceiling charade caused real damage to the economy.

To Cheryl, a "liar" is anyone who expresses an opinion or points out facts she doesn't like. IN turn, she fits my definition of the word "jerk" perfectly.

Oh yes all these massive cuts are just going to upset the wallstreet day trading. Oh no!

Only a complete fool who knows nothing about the relationship between Congress and the federal reserve thinks politicians can create jobs.

But would you agree that politicians can destroy jobs? I think so, we have seen it already. 94000 this month alone by their failure to do their jobs. They're also pissing away revenue by not collecting taxes on airline tickets.

Politicians can indirectly affect jobs. Like when Clinton and the Republican Congress repealed the Glass Steagall Act. That was the worst and most economically damaging piece of legislation passed in that century. They lit the fuse that caused and inflated the meltdown.

For the most part even those types of decisions are just the Federal Reserve, the Big 5 Banks, Defense contractors etc just moving the politicians hand as they sign the paper. The lobby's write the bills and Congress is just the marketing team at presenting it.

So I guess blaming the politicians who are literally owned by the lobbies is like blaming the "Pen". I suppose it has some culpability but not much. The Presidents and Congress have become nothing but "stooges" for these powerful mega lobby's. I would certainly say that changing party's and about 95% of the individuals is totally futile.

Changing party's or politicians within these party's is about like changing your socks and thinking you will be a different person. Until the lobby's are booted out of Washington nothing will change.

Right..... and the Rockefellers and Rothschilds own the Democratic party..... Oh along withFannie/Freddie Chase, Goldman Sachs, Boeing, B of A, Northrop Gruman, GM, Lockheed Martin, General Electric, Microsoft, Teamsters, AFLCIO, Merck, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, State Farm, Allstate, American Medical Association etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.........................................

OH........ and don't forget the owners of the FEDERAL RESERVER BANKS!! Oh and the other trillion dollar a year defense contractor industry.

Yep, no conflict of interest there!!!!!!!!! No money hanging around with that bunch!

Oh and they are all giving their trillions in bailout money to your charities too! Yep, you can just feel the love with that group.