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Subscribe to RSSBoehner now finds himself boxed in… And because he’s fixing his legislation after the CBO score, he has a harder argument to make that Reid and the Dems are on board with his plan… Desperately searching for an acceptable trigger… Due to all of this chaos and confusion, the odds of a short-term extension (like 10 days) are more likely… The WSJ: Debt-ceiling debate is creating business uncertainty… Is Mitt Romney counting his chickens before they hatch?... On the trail: Pawlenty and Santorum are in Iowa, Romney’s in Ohio, and Gingrich is in Georgia.
AP
House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) (right), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) (left).
*** Boehner’s boxed in: Speaker John Boehner had to walk away from the negotiations with President Obama, in large part because too many members of his House GOP conference wouldn’t accept the deal (even before the controversy over that extra $400 billion in revenue). Now, a growing number of House conservatives -- along with the Club for Growth and the Heritage Foundation’s political arm -- oppose Boehner’s go-it-alone debt plan. To make matters worse for the speaker, the Congressional Budget Office determined that his legislation cut less spending than promised, and a vote is now postponed until tomorrow as he goes back to the drawing board. What’s more, Standard & Poor’s said on CNBC it’s “concerned” about Boehner’s plan requiring the debt limit to be raised once again in early 2012. Bottom line -- Boehner is boxed in. But there’s an escape hatch: Does he go back to House Majority Leader Eric Cantor and his GOP conference and make his case that a “grand bargain” with the president is an easier lift than what they have now, since at least they'll have the help of Democrats to pass something and the "grand bargain" actually could change the deficit trajectory?
*** Boehner now has a harder argument to say that Reid and Dems are on board: Here’s another consequence of the CBO score: Boehner has argued to his caucus that Senate Majority Harry Reid accepted his plan (which Reid denies, but clearly the similarities between Reid and Boehner on the first round of cuts show there's some truth buried in there), and therefore Reid and Senate Democrats will ultimately vote for it if it reaches the Senate. But now that Boehner has to go back to the drawing board to fix his legislation, is it harder for him to argue that Reid and the Dems will accept it? And does Boehner "fix" the bill so much in order to get the votes that it becomes even less credible as a compromise vehicle?
*** Desperately searching for an acceptable trigger: Before yesterday’s CBO score, we can report that Boehner and Reid were in agreement on a two-step process to reduce the deficit. But the sticking point is the enforcement mechanism for the second round of cuts. Boehner wants that enforcement mechanism to be a second debt-ceiling hike to get through 2012. Reid, on the other hand, wants the second step to be deficit reduction that ISN’T tied to another debt-ceiling raise. In that respect, Boehner and Reid are stuck in the same place where Boehner and Obama were last week -- looking for an acceptable enforcement mechanism or “trigger.”
*** The odds of a short-term extension are now more likely: Due to this impasse, the CBO score, and the general uncertainty that anything is going to get done, the odds that the White House could sign a short-term debt extension (by 10 days or so) are MUCH more likely. It’s clear that everyone needs more time. Folks, this isn't speculation; this is a whisper that is growing louder among the players involved. By the way, with SO much uncertainty in the talks today, don't be surprised to see/hear all sorts of things today: Obama-Boehner talking? Reid-McConnell? Reid-Boehner? Gang of Six? It's all possible today. Thunderdome? In all seriousness, the new "key player of the day": Mitch McConnell. When does he simply cut a deal with Reid again and help move the ball forward?
*** Talk about business uncertainty: Last year, Boehner often attacked the Obama White House’s policies, arguing that they created business uncertainty. But as we’ve pointed out before, the GOP’s insistence on tying the debt ceiling to deficit reduction has created plenty of business uncertainty, too. Indeed, the Wall Street Journal reports that businesses are hoarding cash and delaying hiring because of the possibility of a U.S. debt default. “While companies generally expect Washington to resolve the debt-ceiling impasse at the last moment, they are lining up extra sources of financing, and carefully husbanding cash just in case a deal falls through. All the uncertainty comes just as businesses were starting to spend some of their record piles of cash. The confusion is also giving them another reason to delay hiring and investment.”
NBC's Kelly O'Donnell reports on the debt impass in Washington.
*** Is Romney counting his chickens before they hatch? Turning to the Republicans campaigning for president, Mitt Romney is starting to resemble a gambler who’s up $500 at the blackjack table and is already counting the ways he’s going to spend his earnings -- but before he walks away from the table. As we’ve said before, he’s acting like someone who’s already wrapped up the GOP nomination, or even the White House. In the past month or so, he told a New Hampshire lumber company owner that he’d be back in four years, “only this time it will be a larger group and I will probably have Secret Service." His public events have taken him to states (like Pennsylvania, California, and today Ohio) that aren’t early primary states. And now it’s being reported that Romney mentioned at a Virginia fundraiser that the VP shortlist was Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell, Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie. A source later told Politico that Romney wasn’t revealing his own VP list, but rather the obvious contenders for any GOP nominee. Still, as Romney knows well -- and Howard Dean and Hillary Clinton know it, too -- being the front-runner in the summer isn’t a guarantee of winning the nomination.
*** On the 2012 trail: Pawlenty and Santorum stump in Iowa… Romney holds another campaign event in a non-early nominating state -- this time Ohio -- as he delivers remarks in Pataskala, OH… And Gingrich is in Georgia.
***Wednesday’s “Daily Rundown” line-up: Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Rep. Jo Ann Emerson (R-MO) on what debt limit bill(s?) will/can move through each chamber and how… PolitiFact’s Bill Adair breaks down some debt declarations… The Washington Post’s Perry Bacon, Republican strategist Kevin Madden and Democratic strategist Karen Finney on 2012 news.
*** Wednesday’s “Andrea Mitchell Reports” line-up: Democratic Congressman James Clyburn, Dem Sen. Kent Conrad, and GOP Rep. Tom Price.
Countdown to Wisconsin recall general for GOP senators: 13 days
Countdown to Iowa GOP straw poll: 17 days
Countdown to Wisconsin recall general for Dem senators: 20 days
Countdown to NV-2 and NY-9 special elections: 48 days
Countdown to Election Day 2012: 104 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 194 days
* Note: When the IA caucuses take place depends on whether other states move up
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Off the radar but…
A cherished friend sent me an article last night which I consider to be important enough to
highlight.
Given Michelle & Marcus Bachmann’s proclivity for wearing their anti-gay views on their sleeves,
while bilking Medicaid under the premise that they can ‘pray the gay’ away!
Now you do the basic math here and this equals almost 5 teenagers per year in her district.
As an elected official WHAT is she doing to address this epidemic? Besides absolutely NOTHING!
If this isn’t outrageous enough:
I don’t care which side of the aisle you sit on – kids are dying while Michele & Marcuscontinue DENYING!
When will it end?
I know where we can find the $350 Billion without any problem. Repeal the Tax Incentives / Loopholes for the Oil and Big Business. Bingo, problem solved everybody gets something and we are now all happy so stop the crap and move on.
While the Nation is hanging on the “Contrived” Debt Ceiling fiasco the GOP/TP is still on the rampage against Americans trying to use this as cover for some more repugnant ideology and attacks on US Citizens going on behind the scenes.
We have all read about how the GOP/TP is holding the FAA funding hostage until they get agreement on their anti-union legislation that they (GOP/TP) attached to the FAA funding bill. Right now the airlines are not collecting the $200 Billion or so in Federal Taxes on plane tickets so you would think tickets would be lower (tax holiday) by about 7-10%. Think again, the airlines increased their ticket prices by the amount of the expired taxes basically making a win fall profit from the FAA crisis and guess who is paying the bill.
The hypocrisy continues from the right. The big three Boehner, McConnell and Cantor keep harping on lowering the debt and “Fiscal Responsibility” while back in the Bush Administration all three of them voted for the two unfunded wars, the two unfunded tax cuts and the unfunded Drug Bill. Price tag $3.4 Trillion Dollars and STILL growing. “Fiscal Responsibility” my butt, how about Hypocrisy and lairs.
Governor Walker steps up his assault on the voting rights of Wisconsin citizens. He has passed a new Voter ID Law, about 6 States or so have these new laws and more coming. You get these ID’s whether they are a valid driver’s license or a State ID from your local DMV. Ok, fair enough. Even though there is NO “Voter Fraud” problem in this country (less than 44 one millionth of one percent reported fraud cases) I have no objection to a valid ID. So what does Walker do, closes down about 10 DMV sites all in Democratic Control Districts. This is all about rigging the upcoming elections where the GOP/TP folk are in serious trouble of losing the State Senate and have Walker recalled like a Toyota with bad breaks. He is dangerous to the very fabric of this country and he will be recalled.
With less than a week to go before this Country defaults on their Debt obligations the GOP/TP is preparing to strip this Nation of Environmental Regulations (being pushed by the Koch Brothers Coal and Big Oil Companies).
Here is another great GOP/TP idea. Let’s see if we can destroy the economy of the United States and put us into Bankruptcy and while we are at it let us destroy the Environment as well. Connect the dots people this is starting to look more and more like a very bad SCI FI movie. Heck, most of us will not have any money to by gas masks anyway.
And let us not forget those pesky new laws that are supposed to keep Wall Street and the Big Banks under control so we do not have a repeat of the previous Administration’s meltdown.
.
Didn’t Barry run for, and get elected on the promise of being a “transformational” President??
Looks like he may be achieving that goal, just not in the way he and his Obamabots had expected. This is consistent with my belief that America’s best years are now in the rear-view mirror. Just like former world powers Spain, England, and France, America is well on its way to becoming just like them, a has-been socialist mediocracy.
From Politico:
It's not the default, it's the downgrade
By: Carrie Budoff Brown and Ben White
July 27, 2011 04:25 AM EDT
It’s not the default that strikes the most fear in the White House and Congress these days. It’s the downgrade.
Even Republican leaders say the country can’t go into default, and they’ll do everything possible to raise the debt limit by Aug. 2.
But what really haunts the administration is the very real prospect, stoked two weeks ago by Standard & Poor’s, that Barack Obama could go down in history as the president who presided over his country’s loss of its gold-plated, triple-A bond rating.
Obama could win and lose at the same time, striking a deal to avoid default but failing to pass muster on the substance of that deal with credit agencies, which could go ahead and downgrade the rating anyway.
Financial analysts say such a move would hit Americans with more than $100 billion a year in higher borrowing costs, but it’s not just that. It would be a psychic blow to a nation that already looks over its shoulder at rising economic powers like China and wonders, what’s gone wrong? And it would give the president’s Republican rivals a ready-made line of attack that he’s dragging the country in the wrong direction.
Who wants to break it to these clowns that their performance will NOT win them a Oscar nomination?
On cue , Alan ‘misogynist’ West hits his 'mark' with;
Is it any wonder they’ve earned the title of two bit Tea Bagger THUGS?
I’m way too cynical to ask, WTF were they thinking?
U.S. Downgrade Would Cost $100 Billion A Year, Wiping Out Any Deficit Reduction
“The financial website Zero Hedge reports that the cost of the U.S. debt being downgraded from our current AAA rating would be a whopping $100 billion a year. That’s according to JP Morgan Chase expert Terry Belton who spoke to reporters on a conference call this morning. In short, even if the U.S. does not default, a downgrade alone “will offset any beneficial impact from any deficit reduction that will have to happen for the debt ceiling to be increased.” Belton predicted that a downgrade would cause “a permanent increase in borrowing costs,” which will make it more costly for consumers and businesses to borrow money, risking another recession”.
Keep up the BS GOP/TP, you plan is working and the country is bleeding. Are you all happy yet? We still have a few drops of blood you missed, do you want that also or can we keep it to survive a little longer. After all you guys will need our slave labor anyway. What do you say??
We just have to get a better President elected in 2012. His answer, Call your congressman and tell them to raise "Somebody elses taxes"? That is Ridiculous. VOTE FOR CHANGE IN 2012!
I got a good laugh from last night’s Wiffleball: WH Press Secretary, Jay Carney, was trying to make the case that Barry wants a debt ceiling deal that goes beyond the 2012 election for the good of the economy, not for the good of his re-election campaign. He said that Barry wants to reduce “economic uncertainty” among businesses that is holding back the economy. Of course, there are a number of FR lefty liberal’s that have routinely dismissed “economic uncertainty” among businesses as a reason for not expanding and hiring as totally bogus. They must now be thinking the WH is either really, really stupid or deliberately lying.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Feisty:
Bachmann also wants to get rid of the Federal Back Mortgages after her and her hubby took up a max loan for over 470K for a 5,000 square foot Golf Course Home with a 250K+ line of credit. What a lying hypocrite just like they never took Federal money for their business or farm.
She and her husband are a real piece of work. The are the new poster children for what is wrong with this Country.
Palin's movie is a bust, so much for "Undefeated" now it is going to pay for TV. Right - I think her expiration date has expired. Thank God. Bachmann is next.
President Obama in 2012.
Many of us on the board predicted months ago these tea baggers would drive Boehner to 'drink'! lol
Well, more than usual that is...
You WANTED that over-sized gavel - now put on your MAN PANTS & govern!
Should of been more careful what you wished for Johnnie... ;o)
207 days have gone by this year. Still waiting for the a plan from the Democrats and Obama, both on the debt ceiling and the FY2012 budget.
What exactly are they waiting for?
Looks like Reid will be working the weekend again, just like he said and didn't do last weekend.
Praying away the gay doesn't seem to be working ..Have you seen her husband ? "SCREAMER" he makes Richard Simmons look like a marine !
Hey Navy, you have to understand that default and downgrade are two different things. The debt ceiling will be raised, even in the short term to avoid a default. However, unless the debt and deficient are addressed with a believable plan, and that means $4T minimum, then downgrade is inevitable.
Downgrade does not mean interest rates will automatically rise. Japan was downgraded this year and still sells government bonds at extremely low interest rates.
They are negotiating...unfortunately with those who are unwilling to negotiate.
Another case of an American Tragedy
Our democracy is under attack by the Tea Party crew and their rich leaders.
Voter suppression is one of the saddest things happening right before our eyes. While journalists spend their days keeping score minute by minute of who is “winning” – the President or the Speaker of the House, there is something more important going on in this country. Where is the outrage in Congress? Where is the outrage in our media?
Since the Tea Party just loves to wave the flag so much, why are they in favor of voter suppression? What's American about that? This gets to the heart of our democracy. Are we going to have to call in President Carter to oversee our elections now, here in America?
What is wrong with you people in Congress? Do something. In the meantime, where are YOUR compromises as we battle the deficit. We the taxpayers are footing the bill while you live like kings.
You’re willing to cut SS, Medicare, Medicaid, no tax hikes for the robber barons. And now – voter suppression.
How low can you people get? White supremacy is what’s wrong with these people. There was a time when real journalists stood on the side of democracy. Now all they seem to do is make excuses for these losers. Or spend their days asking “Did Obama cave?” I know - let’s take a poll!
Meanwhile voter suppression is taking over the nation. It’s not only sad. It's a huge slap in the face to our fellow American citizens. Where is the outrage? Why aren't our journalists on top of this? This should be on the front page of every single newspaper in this country.
Think Progress: March 2011
Thursday, ThinkProgress reported that the Ohio House had approved the most restrictive voter id law in the nation — a bill that would exclude 890,000 Ohioans from voting. Earlier this week Texas lawmakers passed a similar bill, and voter id legislation — which would make it significantly more difficult for seniors, students and minorities to vote — is now under consideration in more than 22 states across the country
Conservatives have said voter id laws are necessary to combat mass voter fraud. Yet according to the Brennan Center for Justice, Americans are more likely to be killed by a bolt of lightning than commit voter fraud. And the Bush administration’s five-year national “war on voter fraud” resulted in only 86 convictions of illegal voting out of more than 196 million votes cast. Instead conservatives are employing an old tactic: using the specter of false voting to restrict the voting rights of minorities and the poor.
Below, ThinkProgress examines the history of conservatives anti-voter agenda:
– JIM CROW SOUTH: In the Jim Crow South, historian Leon Litwack writes, “respectable” Southern whites justified their support for measures to disenfranchise African-Americans “as a way to reform and purify the electoral process, to root out fraud and bribery.” In North Carolina for example, conservatives insisted that literacy tests and poll taxes — which disenfranchised tens of thousands of African-Americans — were necessary to prevent “voter fraud.”
– 1981 RNC VOTER CAGING SCANDAL: According to Project Vote, in 1981 the Republican National Committee mailed non-forwardable postcards to majority Hispanic and African-American districts in New Jersey in an effort to accuse those voters of false voting. The 45,000 returned cards were then used to create a list of voters whose residency the GOP could challenge at the polls. The Democratic National Committee sued, winning a consent decree in which the RNC agreed not to engage in practices “where the purpose or significant effect of such activities is to deter qualified voters from voting.” Similar initiatives were undertaken by the Arizona GOP in 1958, the RNC in 1962 and again, despite the decree, in Louisiana in 1986.
–RECENT VOTER CAGING EFFORTS: During the 2004 election GOP state parties, along with dozens of unidentified groups, launched similar “voter caging” efforts designed to challenge the eligibility of thousands of minority voters by accusing them of voter fraud. And in 2008, the Obama campaign sued the Michigan Republican Committee for collecting a list of foreclosures in an effort to challenge the residency, and eligibility, of voters who had lost their home in the housing crisis.
– US ATTORNEY DAVID IGLESIAS FIRING SCANDAL: In an unprecedented politicization of the Justice Department, in 2006 the Bush White House fired US Attorney David Iglesias for refusing to prosecute voting fraud cases where little evidence existed. The New Mexico political establishment asked for Iglesias’ dismissal after he refused to cooperate with the party’s efforts to make voter id laws “the single greatest wedge issue ever.”
– US ATTORNEY TOM HEFFELFINGER DISMISSAL: In Minnesota, US Attorney Tom Heffelfinger lost his position when he ran afoul of GOP activists for “expressing deep concern about the effect of a state directive that could have the effect of discouraging Indians in Minnesota from casting ballots.”
– WISCONSIN, THE KOCHS AND THE 2010 ELECTION: Last fall ThinkProgress reported that a coalition of Wisconsin Tea Party and Koch-funded groups, in an effort to stop “voter fraud” and prevent “stolen elections,” was planning a sophisticated voter caging effort that would use GOP lawyers and Tea Party volunteers to challenge the eligibility of voters at polls in the state. Earlier that year, the same groups were instrumental in defeating a voter protection law that would have criminalized any attempt to use force or coercion to “compel any person to refrain from voting.” One prominent Tea Party member behind the voter caging effort that “since the voter law did not get passed this year… we can still do this.”
As statehouses across the country move forward on voter identification bills, ThinkProgress will continue to track conservatives latest efforts to advance their century-old anti-voter agenda.
@ UAW
Damn straight they should be raised to the same level I am paying. Why should they pay 15% less? Let the working man pay 15% less than they do, which would be about nothing. Let the wealth trickle up for a change, trickle down is most assuredly not working, not one bit, for 30 years it has failed by every measure possible, nothing has trickled down. You have republicans from Texas fighting to keep billionaires from paying their fair share of the bills, in a state with a median wage of $11.20 an hour, it is beyond unfair, it is beyond stupid.
Liberal policies and spending are under attack by the TEA PARTY. That might not change....
If this was true, might be time to wrap it up. But it''s not true as Carney's meeting with the press showed yesterday. When the press asked Carney "Where's Obama's plan?", Carney went nuts on a ten minute rant explaining Obama had a plan, but he just wasn't about to show it to anyone.
So it's one of the those "Super Secret" plans. Obama's eyes only I guess.
A couple of good points being brought up. I think a lot of people in the general public don't understand that the downgrade of the US Credit Rating has little to do with the lifting of the debt ceiling. As several posters have mentioned, the debt ceiling will be raised. But it's what happens with the budget deficit that will determine the fate of our credit rating. Let's hope that Washington can figure out some sort of compromise that will impress the rating agencies enough to fend off a credit rating downgrade!!!
I sure hope Bag Boy remembers that I won the bet.
Not only did Boehner's plan not make it to the President's desk, it didn't even make it to the floor of the House.
What's the matter? Republicans can't write a plan that doesn't send the rating agencies into a panic?
LoL
Now, what's my prize?
Jo do you ever tire of being a parrot for Fox? (Apparently not.) I'll give you credit. You drone on very well. Good job!
GUMP, Keep in mind the taxes you are talking about are taxes we receive on "dividends" that investors recieve from companies "after" that company has paid "corporate taxes". In effect anyone rich or poor who owns a dividend paying stock is getting taxed twice on thier money. Quit buying into the lie that rich people don't pay thier fair share..... Let's face it most minroties (African American's and Hispanics) are poorer now than when Obama got elected. Wealth can not be acheived thru entitlements. His wealth redistribution rhetoric is destroying these peoples chances for a brighter future. In contrast look at minority Asains whose wealth is surpassing whites. Proof that the American dream can still be attained...... PLEASE VOTE FOR CHANGE IN 2012!
So I go and read the ThinkProgress article. The claim is that there is no evidence of voter fraud and the bill is a waste of money. OK, I can accept there's no evidence of voter fraud but where does the figure of 890,000 come from?
So in the same article we two definitive statements, neither backed up by any evidence. The irony!! You may also notice in Pat's post the important use of estimated, and the fact that the source is basically anonymous, are missing. Nice editing job there.
BTW On a real issue, do you think that college students should vote in the district that their school is located, or in their home district. I think this is an interesting argument.
The middle class has been shrinking for 30 years under don't tax the rich policies (except for a brief respite under Clinton) that might not change either. Last time we had a surplus was under those tax rates, then republicans claimed the surplus was proof that taxes were too high and gave the money back (remember those tax rebate checks) then they increased spending, and the debt limit (numerous times) now they complain about debt. It is beyond stupid to think you can keep taxes at this level and just cut your way to solvency and pay the bills on money that has already been spent.
Where's Reid's and/or Obama's plan? I mean come on! I know, I know, Obama's just the idea guy. We've all been around one of them. Sits there in meetings and suggests a bunch of ideas but does nothing to further them. When asked to help responds with "I came up with the idea, what else do you want from me?" That and a little work will put a bind on his tee times. That's Barry's excuse. What's Harry's?
"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." - Winston Churchill
Joe in Albany: Seriously? I would lol, but your delusions are not funny. Obama's bent over backward to get a deal including giving up on the repeal of the Bush tax cuts......something most sane people know has to be done. Boehner should tell the tea baggers to stop acting like fools and let him make a deal. When did compromise become a bad word?
...off the cliff, again!
Thanks but no thanks, Mr. West!
Pat, Boston. Excellent post, thank you.
And I think it's a bogus argument. You are essentially disenfranching voting age college students from voting in Presidential elections, as they are seldom "home" on the second Tuesday in November.
You don't think that was the purpose? Seriously?!
Besides, after children leave for college, what really is their "home" district? Many students never go "home" again to live. My daughter went off to college and still lives in the Cities. After she left, was this really her "home"? Would you have deprived her of her right to vote for president on that basis?
I find it more interesting that you would buy into something so transparent.
Or maybe you just want to.
UAW Pleeeeeease - we're going to vote for change in 2012. We're getting rid of as many of the stupid and roadblocking Republicans as possible. Everything President Obama has tried to do they have blocked. And, just for the record, we are talking about standard taxes just like the rest of the US has to pay. Right now the top 2% pay 17% in Federal Taxes - a lot less than I pay at a lower salary. Try to sell your snake oil - the intelligent aren't buying!
Whoa, AM-
You're still getting a plan from the Speaker...just have to get the numbers right.
You're not seeking to win on a technicality, are you?
Chuck Todd tried like the devil to find President Obama's plan, to no avail.
Grimey - The problem is the Republicans WON'T compromise. In their effort to have everything they want, they will more than likely take this economy down and any deficit reduction they do manage to get will be completely vanquished by higher interest rates and further deficits. They are fools and traitors to this country because they put their political agenda (getting rid of President Obama) ahead of their legislative function to take care of the people and this country. They will all be gone in 2012 because the American people are finally understanding these people didn't come to Washington to save this country, they came to Washington to destroy our form of government.
Since I now frequent this page more, I am becoming more familiar with the entrenched radical regulars. It makes me wonder why you all keep fighting with each other when no one changes their point of view. Does it entertain you to fight with each other? In other words, this really isn't about the politics or article at all, right? This is really about getting your rocks off by typing a one-way diatribe, yes? If there is something else going on, I sure would be curious.
Doesn't anyone deal with facts any more?
Everyone except the arithmetic illiterates in the Tea Party knows we have to raise the debt ceiling. Bills must be paid and our credit rating must be protected. No one argues with the fact that we have a spending problem. Only the brain dead believe we don't have to cut spending and raise revenues.
So who has the credibility to offer a solution? Start with this. On the Republican House side, Boehner can't get his troops together. It's tempting to blame Boehner and in some measure he deserves the blame. He's desperately trying to serve two masters - mainstream Republicans and the right-wing extremists who have no grasp of financial reality. His second-in-command is a duplicitous punk who would gut Boehner in a heartbeat. On the Senate side, you have McConnell who has openly told us that he will do virtually anything to defeat Obama, which apparently includes tactics that will destroy the country. Kyl? Well, what can you say about this boneheaded misogynist? This is the guy whose office tells us that his pronouncements are not necessarily factual. That provides a solid foundation for good-faith negotiating, doesn't it?
Then there's the Democratic side. In the House, Nancy Pelosi has kept to herself. She can't be all that unhappy to watch Boehner twist in the wind. Hoyer, her second-in-command can tell us everything that is wrong with the Republican plans. What's conspicuously absent is any suggestions that might improve the plan. It used to drive me nuts that Republicans would do nothing but throw stones at Democratic proposals. That tactic isn't any better when Democrats use it. On the Senate side, Harry Reid has a plan, which like so many proposals that offer cuts is based on slicing programs in the future. Hey, that's worked out well.
All of this comes from legislators who have been in Congress since this plunge into fiscal irresponsibility went into overdrive when Bush came into office. It is very strange that the same Republicans who started this spending binge have only recently discovered the wisdom of fiscal conservatism. They have NEVER exercised any fiscal restraint, yet now they are willing to destroy the American economy to put in place an economic philosophy they themselves have never tried. "Oh, trust us. We got it right this time." They are going to tie the debt increase to budget proposals that reach ten years into the future. That is beyond imprudent. It is either crazy and/or stupid. Take your pick.
And the Dems. The Democrats have now pushed this to the point that there are no longer any alternatives to a clean debt ceiling increase. That may not be so bad. However, it is high time that Democrats step up with serious alternatives.
This back and forth crap where each party does nothing but snipe at the majority party is destructive in the extreme. We would be well-advised to note that at one time or another we are going to be in a the minority. Right now, I hate the Republicans and the Democrats make me want to puke.
We'd better grow up. This fifth-grade playground business isn't going to put the country back on track.
Anna, Im betting your prize starts out with close your eyes and bend over!
Depends. What's the prize?
There are some things for which my scruples have no scruples.
I'll be waiting on that plan, Bag Boy.
Not in YOUR lifetime. Trust me. Liberal women are not compliant enough for you.
Mr Walker lots of people deal with facts, just not the same "facts" that most of the liberals come up with on this site. Im convinced navybouy lives in a refrigerator box under a covered bridge somewhere in backwoods of New England. I grew up in New England and I know we have a lot of backwoods people in the netherlands!
@AM
For Presidential elections there is postal voting. How often do college student change the address on their drivers license to their college location?
But my point is actually more related to local issues and elections. I heard the argument that students are basically a four transient voting population who may have the college's best interest at heart, but that may differ from the long-term residents on the surrounding area. I thought this was an interesting point of view that deserved consideration.
W Goin.
You cannot continue to stress the need to raise federal income tax on the upper 2% because they pay 17% tax. It clearly points out that you are clueless. If you raise the upper 2% to 100% federal income tax, the "rich" will still pay 17%. I'll let you sit down and attempt to figure out why.
It is time to bench Boehner and the Republican's to elect a new speaker that can represent the party. And it is time to run with Harry Reids plan. Obama has been flexible, the Republican's are in disarray. Their insane lack of ability is embarrassing to their party, to their country, and quite frankly until they get their crap together, we cannot afford to even bring them to the negotiation.
Obama, and the Dems, time to move forward.
So, you're saying that Speaker Boehner was negotiating against a plan that doesn't exist? How does that make Boehner look?
Jollyoldsoul.
Get a life and purpose other than name calling.
Feisty and Pat,
Keep shining the sanitizing light of sunshine on the 'side' stories that most want swept under the proverbial carpet.
Bachmann is CRAZEE and Voter Disenfranchisement is HERE!
PS. Ya' made me blush, tat buddy!
@Derek-381097
Hi Derek, I come here because I know there will be people who completely disagree with my views on certain subjects. From that I try and find out how they reach those views and what facts back them up. I do not like/want to simply have my views reinforced. I want my views challenged and adjusted if necessary. I do not expect to change anyone's opinion here but I do want to try and understand where they are coming from.
It's Grump not Gump UAW. They don't pay the same taxes on their income as I do, that's a fact, America was in better shape when they did, that's a fact. Working people are not concerned with dividends and capital gains they earn a check each week, if they are lucky, and the taxes that are taken out far exceed what billionaire's pay on their income, that is a fact. The fact that the working people earn their money by giving the hours, days, and years of their lives, sacrificing their bodies in many cases, instead of simply owning a pile of the right pieces of paper makes it all the more unfair. It is not only unfair is is unworkable in the long run, that is obvious now, the less income the middle class has to spend the worse the economy, and more and more people have to rely on government programs to survive. All these people that you think want entitlements are Americans and all they really want is a decent job, so they can buy their kids a swing-set. They don't give a sh!t about the rich mans capital gains and dividends nor should they.
You are over the line and there is no reason for such talk. This is what happens when you have no ideas of any redeeming value, you resort to stupid insulting rhetoric. All you are doing is proving our point, you and people like you are the problem NOT the solution.
Grow up
Funny stuff, Feisty. Conservatives are really good at that unintended irony thing, aren't they?
Pat, outstanding post on vote suppression. I'm sorry to say it's long been a central tenet of the radical Conservatism that's taken over the Republican party that too many people have the right to vote. John Birch Society members I knew in the 1970s used to tell me the "slippery slope" started when people who didn't own property were first allowed to vote. Now it's becoming a common discussion within the Tea Parties that the right to vote should be taken away from renters.
This debt ceiling drama comes from one source and one source only--the Republican Party has been taken over by radical extremists.
Too easy, Alan, so is mine.
Why do you necessarily assume that college students' major interests are really in their hometowns? My daughter's weren't, and many others feel the same way. Especially about issues that actually affect them, such as landlord tenant issues. In this town, that's probably THE biggest local issue in the aldermanic districts where the University is located. Why shouldn't the tenants have a say?
It's way too easy to make that assumption, and it's often wrong.
@David Walker
You'll be moving to the independent column soon.
Keep it up. You just keep making my point for me. Classy.
I didn't say that. I said that their major interests may align with the college, which may be oppose the a proposal by the local residents. You point on tenant interests is a good one though. I presume that you accept that students can vote for federal offices through postal voting so they would not be disenfranchised.
Great points, Anna Molly. I have a son in college as well. His interest for this part of his life is in his college down. If he has to get a revised ID in order to vote it would require him to go to another town to get to a drivers license station, the county seat. He has no car, and there's no public transportation to get him there.
Any coincidence that the only people this is likely to affect are the young, and the poor, the people least likely to vote Republican?
To think so is to stretch credibility.
@ Navy ~ Thank you. That's all. :-*
Can't dance if someone is standing on the others foot ...... I'm for NO compromise on the Democrat side, I think there has been way to much of that ....
Derek
I have been reading the posts on this site for quite a while now, although I do not participate directly in discussions. My contribution consists mostly in voting for the posts I am in agreement with. What I came to understand is, there are a lot of people here from both sides who are genuine and interested in a sane, healthy (and often heated) exchange of ideas. Some very interesting and informative points of view are exchanged; sometimes in an elegant and articulate prose. I also suspect there are some planted activists whose main goal is pure propaganda, trying to recruit followers for their political party.
You are so right Forrest. The GOTP has been trying to blame the economy on the workers and the poor for so long they are starting to believe their own BS. The wealthy control this country and the rest of the world for that matter not the other way around! Time for the supposed conservatives that post here to wake up!
Maybe, but not necessarily in all cases. But that adds a layer of bureaucracy. So why don't they come up with some good options to make absentee voting easier instead of only coming up with options to make it harder to vote in person? It ain't currently broke, at least according to statistics from this state, so why are Republicans working so hard to fix it. Why are they, for example, in my state, closing the DMV offices where you can get the IDs in the blue districts and consolidating them in red ones, as others have previously reported here?
Read John B's excellent post on the same topic for a little extra context.
Alan and aro, thanks for the responses. I don't know if I agree that the majority of posts here are informative, but maybe I'll start looking for those that are. You two give me a glimmer of hope that somewhere, out there, a handful of people are interested in a discussion. The rest I'll probably keep making fun of.
Anna Molly,
You're probably right. Seeing as a large number of them voted for the current resident of the White House. They probably couldn't figure out how to absentee vote for President to their home town. That and what would all the Radical Left Wing Liberal/Wack Job towns, like Madison Wisconsin, do about losing all them votes? LOL!
Anna Molly,
Now for some Radical Left Wing Liberal/Progressive Wack Job male, or female, in power, that's a whole other story.
GRump, Have your hard working American get a job w/o somebody rich first investing in a business. The economy isnt going to improve until the private sector spends more money on busienss not taxes. Pay out all the entitlments and unemployment you want (that olny works until you hit a self imposed borrowing limit or nobody is stupid enough to loan you any more money) Having some one like the TEA PARTY say "NO" now is a blessing. I'd rather hear "NO" from a fellow American now than the Chinese, Arabs, etc 2 years from now. All that aside if Obama were a better leader we wouldnt have all this in fighting and politics. Reagan got a the debt ceiling raised 18 times (an avg every 6 mos) Let's face it Obama is no Reagan. We need a real leader not an inexperienced .3 term Senator. VOTE FOR CHANGE IN 2012!
John B,
No coincidence at all. Young and poor voters are more gullible than others. That's why the poor are, oh I don't know, poor? Buy lots of lottery tickets in hopes of hitting it big one day. I think they call that a stupid tax. And the young are, shall we say, naive, inexperienced, trusting. Makes sense that the Democrats would take advantage of them. The end justifies the means.
Forrest G,
Pretty stupid comment. Look at California - The rich still live there but liberalism has driven small business and the middle class out of the state.
Your statement is pretty revealing ...... the middle class is dependent on taking money from the rich and re-distributing it? Sounds pretty much like socialism, huh? Either that or the ignorance of a union tool.
Another stupid statement ....... actually its just a lie.
Clinton had a deficit ever year. National Debt went up every year. The liberals claim a surplus to fool their base, which evidently is ignorant about public debt and intragovernmental holdings. Hint - SS collections were counted against public debt and weren't considered as the liability to intragovernmental holdings.
You guys are so easy to fool. Obama even repeated the lie the other night - feel for it again, huh.
Another ignorant statement.
Clinton's deficit for the year he left office was $133.29 billion ($95.29 billion if you are a liberal and want to charge Bush's refund back). The point is that that there was a recession due to the dot.com bubble bust. You never heard of that?
Yea spending got away from Bush ...... everytime he wanted to buy a helmet for a soldier he had to buy a pet project for some Congressman.
The costs of the 2 wars for the 8 years was $760 billion - LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT OBAMA IS BORROWING THIS YEAR ALONE!
Yea, we have a complaint about Obama's asinine spending.
And Obama thinking he can spend his way out of a debt problem is sane?
Need to grow the economy and cut spending. 15 - 25 million Americans would love to pay taxes by being employed.
Jolly, I was driving through Detriot on I-75 Saturday and I saw a homeless camp site under one of the over passes it was pretty depressing (where you claim to live). I don't think your comments are all that funny. Homelessness is not something to wish on anyone.
This guy Boehner is a "cry-baby" piece of crap!!!
And he has just doomed the republicans to getting their collective asses kicked AGAIN in the next election.
And that is sad, because we desperately need a viable replacement for Obama.
Nice going Boehner! You cheap scape moron!
14 Trillion in debt but "No tax break reversal for the rich". How ignorant can you get???!!!
Thanks for the introduction. That's all I need to know about you.
And this is what I get for trying to be friendly with the conservatives who post here.
I'd love to say it was nice to meet you, but ... not.
Well there you go again. You are so right UAW! Obama doesn't fall asleep on the job and have his wife whisper him the answers. Thanks for the memories.
You really are a bigoted old fart. You keep proving our point and you are so clueless you do not even know you have already lost. Give it up, your are done just like a piece of dried up old toast.
Thanks for playing
Nobody is investing in business because there are no customers with money to spend. People do not want unemployment benefits, they want a job that pays more then unemployment. The largest group of homeless people are children, I'm sure these kids have been out looking for jobs, but the gates were locked on the streets where the wealthy job givers live.
"Why are they, for example, in my state, closing the DMV offices where you can get the IDs in the blue districts and consolidating them in red ones, as others have previously reported here?"
Well, of course, it must be because the red districts are the more densely populated. They are, aren't they, AM (I'm presuming the informality of the shorthand)? Otherwise, it would be pure stupidity in an attempt to consolidate for efficiency or a power grab by the Walker and his crew at the expense of democracy (you are in Wisconsin, right?) I can't believe the latter of any reasonable fellow Americans.
Alan, in my state out of state college students are under no obligation to change their driver's license to one in our state. They are exempted much like military personnel. In the world of Republicans, especially in my state, if the student takes this option it will make them ineligible to vote. The Republicans count on them being too lazy to want to jump the hoops to change their license to an instate license and then change it back when they leave school. It's a trap, face the facts.
Well I see the libbies are out creating their fantasies again ...
Come on children ... tell me your plan for fixing that which you are incapable of saying ... Entitlements? Come on, I'm listening. We're talking real reform to the tune of $Trillions. I'm waiting. That means real numbers as in "last year I spent X amount and this year I'm going to spend a smaller number". Waiting ...
Come on children ... tell me your plan for tax reform. We're talking real reform not "tax the rich" as in that will make everything better.
Come on children ... tell me your plan to keep the politicians honest from year to year. I don't like you Libbies and you probably don't like me either ... DON'T CARE! but how are WE going to keep the OTHER guys honest from year to year? I'm waiting for an adult here ...
Here's the bottom line. Obama has increased the debt by $4 Trillion in a little over 2 years. Too freaking much IMHO. In running up that total he's enacted an ADDITIONAL entitlement program, Obamacare, in one of the most partisan political sideshows ever by a majority party. THEN YOU WONDER ABOUT BI-PARTISANSHIP after you walked all over opposition for two years?
The ONLY way out of this is for you Libs to finally tell the truth. YOU'RE OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.
If we don't see at least a real $4 Trillion reduction in spending, then this whole exercise is BS. The Tea Party isn't the problem, it's the response to the unbridled spending of the last 5 years. The only problem is we don't have enough in Congress ... yet.
Cut, Cap, and Balance the only real solution!
UAW: Are you forgetting your hero Reagan RAISED taxes, several times?? He couldn't get elected dog-catcher by his far right party these days. He'd be called a "RINO" by these fools.
If this was true, might be time to wrap it up. But it''s not true as Carney's meeting with the press showed yesterday. When the press asked Carney "Where's Obama's plan?", Carney went nuts on a ten minute rant explaining Obama had a plan, but he just wasn't about to show it to anyone.
JAS1 Think back to the 2004 presidential elections, don't you remember Senator Kerry telling everyone that he had the solutions to fixing the problems in the USA, when he didn't win he took his "plans and solutions" and went home without ever showing them. Same democrat playbook talk about it but don't show it.
Anna Molly my daughter is a college student and she has not had a problem getting an absentee ballot from her state of residence, don't see why others can't do the same. The college voting issue is really a non-starter unless they are voting twice. one absentee and one in-state and that wouldn't be right.
Hi John, does your son go to college in Iowa? If so, he is required to update his driver license if he changes his mailing address. If he does not change his mailing address then he should be voting from his home address. If a college student cannot follow the simple instructions below then we, as country, have bigger problems.
www.iowadot.gov/mvd/ods/changes.htm
Iowa driver's license or identifcation (ID) card name or address changes
Address change
You must notify the Iowa DOT within 30 days when your mailing address has changed. This may be done by:
Office of Driver Services
Iowa Department of Transportation
P.O. Box 9204
Des Moines, Iowa 50306-9204
Fax: 515-239-1837
Slash, dash and crash the real solution, to disaster! Why don't pull you head out and then maybe you won't be so astonished! The only children posting here is you and your Tea Bag friends. Waaaaa! Uncle Grover they don't agree with me! Go drink your Kool-aid!
I have to assume this is sarcasm, in which case the "informality" of AM is fine. Otherwise, not so much.
Walker doesn't care about democracy, and efficiency is not what drives him, no matter what he says. On the DMV issue, I'll let you be the judge --
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_135ba222-b4b3-11e0-95a3-001cc4c03286.html
But setting aside the DMV for a moment, it will cost the state more than a million dollars to implement a solution for which there was no problem (voter ID).
And there's a LOT more where that came from. Read on, McDuff ...
http://host.madison.com/ct/business/biz_beat/article_578a76f8-b2f6-11e0-bdc6-001cc4c03286.html
Rejecting the AMTRAK money was just Walker's way of dissing Madison to make political points.
And Walker's political point-making will now cost the state an extra $30 million.
Power grab at the expense of democracy? How could you possibly think it?
And he even gets voters to pay for it. Nice work, and all that ....
ASTONSHISHED! That is the most accurate post I have seen on this thread. We really need a better leader. Obama got led like a donkey in a kiddie ride by Pelosi and Reid for 2 years. The people elected common sense politicians to change that in 2010. We just need a better President in 2012 and this country will get moving. Obviously Obama's anti business call your congressman and tell him "TO TAX SOMEBODY ELSE" isnt working.... VOTE FORE A BETTER COUNTRY IN 2012!
cdahl:
Morning. I attended a small business political think tank a little while back in Vermont and one thing they brought up was taxes on Sub S companies on how to shelter the retain earnings they really use for keeping the company afloat from personal income. Our (VT) Senators are looking into that as part of the Tax Reform they are proposing. They want a mechanism that will shelter monies from the 35% personal income tax if and only if it can somehow be identified and not another fraud waiting to happen.
That is the sticking point is in how do they define what and how much can be sheltered from taxes. They used several big Vermont Sub Chapter S corps that are seasonal by nature. Even though their sales are seasonal product development and R&D is not. Upgrading equipment, market research capital etc is needed, it is strictly business related and to loose 35% of that capital hurts and stops them from hiring new engineers etc.
They reconize that true small businesses not the Koch Brothers, Hedge Fund Comanies etc need some tax reform as well, but in a good way.
Have any ideas I can pass on to these guys would be appreciated.
US NAVY Tell them to vote for politicians with business expereince.....
@ Bob
I got news for you Bob, read my post as many times at it takes for you to see that I said nothing about taking anything from the rich except the same percentage of taxes as I pay. You got that, they pay what I pay nothing more, I said they pay 15% less, and if anybody pays less it should be the hundreds of millions of people that will spend that few bucks anyway. Business does not invest until their is a market, you know we call them customers, customers are people with some money to spend, that is how it works Bob. Nobody starts a business to pay wages so there will then be customers, until huge amounts of people have some disposable income to spend you will see business in the USA decline and move to where the money is available. BTW I take the union tool comment as a real compliment, thank you. As a union tool I have helped literally thousands of people make a better living for their families, and they made the serious, honest, decent American businessmen that hire us wealthy. I am very proud that the members working under contracts I help negotiate make a decent wage, have health insurance and a real pension benefit. I am very proud of the businessmen we work for who make a decent profit in the industry in which we work and are willing to share a fair slice of it with the people that make it all happen for them. These people work hard, pay taxes, and spend their money in the community, they are not the ones depending on medicaid and food stamps, or using the emergency rooms as a clinic. You made my day Bob with the "Union Tool" remark, I am very proud to be a "Union Tool" instead of just a plain old tool like you Bob.
cdahl, Name calling......you call that name calling! You need to look at some of your liberal friends posts to see real name calling!
That's one of the most off the wall "arguments" I've seen recently. Ever hear of absentee voting? College is not home. It is not where you need to vote. There is nothing at all preventing a college student from voting in their home district. They should be voting in their home district.
About the only reason I can think of why anyone would be trying to get college students to vote in another district is if they don't like the demographic that is in that district and hope the college students will vote differently.
Let's see now. Let's say that 25,000 people live in a smaller somewhat rural district. They are mostly of one mind about what they want for their district. They continue to vote for what they want. Now, you let that many college students vote in that district. When most of them do not live there and don't care one bit about what happens there once they leave in a few years and suddenly you are letting visitors choose how you live. I can't even begin to see how that might be fair for anyone. Keep in mind that voting is not limited to presidents. Voting includes voting on local things as well. And there is certainly no reason why visitors (students) should be allowed to vote on anything local when they don't live there. Again, living at college does not count for living in the district. If you think the number of students won't exceed the number of residents and that it wouldn't matter, you would be wrong. In large districts, this may be true, but in smaller districts with colleges or universities, it is common for there to be enough students to double the population of an area (or more).
Requiring that you only vote in your home district is a good thing. It does not discriminate (everyone has a home district and absentee voting is available if you can't be there) and it does not let outsiders influence the voting in a given district. Again, the only reason to even support students voting in the college's district is because you hope to change the outcome of votes because you don't like how the residents choose to vote. If you can't win the vote, that doesn't mean that you should look for ways to fudge the outcome in your favor.
After reading a post last night about how a conservative biggest goal was to let President Obama know just who is really in charge.
It suddenly hit me. All this crap, this making Obama fail is nothing more that making sure the president knows his place.
I think I am beginning to understand what taking our country back means. All the hate for Obama without any real reason. Why everything is piled on the president day in and day out. How everything is twisted to be Obama's fault. Then there is the use of racist nicknames. Who can forget, the black one led the white ones off the cliff.
I thought about this all last night. The majority in our country is not racist and elected Obama as our president. That fact along with he might succeed in anything is driving a segment of our country crazy.
With bachmann signing a pledge stating that black were more likely to have a two parent home in slavery than today with a black president. I'm thinking the tea-party if they put on white robes it would more likely show their true feelings.
You see if President Obama succeeds then it proves that whites are not better than blacks. If they can make Obama fail, well they knew all along he couldn't stand with real men and now he knows his place.
Jolly Old Soul.
Careful as to what you assume I am, you may be surprised.
Now I ask you. What productive objective were you trying to accomplish by posting..?
1._______________________________
2._______________________________
3._______________________________
bob,
I love how you make excuses for Bush's failure: dot.com. Yet, the 2 wars, housing bubble, financial meltdown, increasing unemployment, increasing debt, increased spending is off the table when evaluating the current administration.
Clinton took over Bush1 mess; cleaned it up as much as he could in the 8 year time frame. Bush2 came in and undid EVERYTHING Clinton did. Obama came in and took over the runaway train that you cannot stop in 2.6 yrs. You can slow it down.
So, it's not Bush's fault because dot.com happened?
Reagan: increased spending, increased debt, increased unemployment, increased the size of military and the federal government. War.
Bush1: increased spending, increased debt, increased unemployment, increased the size of military and the federal government. War.
Bush2: increased spending, increased debt, increased unemployment, increased the size of military and the federal government. War.
Please show me where do the Republicans have any credibility?
Sorry UAW, we've already tried that! Does George W. Bush ring any bells? Well, actually I didn't vote for that "businessman" but I sure got the "business"! I would like to skip that "experience"! Thanks!
UAW Pleeeeeeeease
.......like GW Bush who bankrupted 2 oil companies?
I don't recall Regan every having the debt-ceiling held over his head like the Baggers are trying to do now. We don't need to be dealing with terrorists or extortion.
As for saying "NO", just remember what happened when no one wanted to bail homeowners out during the housing crisis...now we are ALL paying the price and will for years. Sometimes it makes sense to hold-you-nose and say "yes".
Ronald Reagan: " I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandments would have looked
like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress."
This quote came to mind when I thought of GWB and now Pres. Obama (Harper's Magazine)
If the whole world is blaming you and you keep your cool you own the world (paraphase)
Phyllis Kunz
Keep laughing "Giggles". If uncertainty in the market is why companies aren't hiring, why weren't they hiring under the last administration? They're not hiring because of the weak market demand. Why a weak demand...because the middle-class is shrinking and workers fear for their jobs. When you kill demand...you kill the economy. It would seem our "corporate overlords" are either ignorant of the need to foster demand for their own current/future profit, or they are trying to suck the last drop of American blood before setting up sales in China.
Boehner's $850B Plan is 65% of all 18 Reagan cap increases combined, Reid's $2.2T Plan is 170% of all 18 Reagan caps combined. What's wrong with small increments as under Reagan?
Obama already has assumed ownership of 30% of all National Debt since George Washington. If he gets $2.5 trillion additional room to play he will gobble it up. He will have assumed 40% of the total US National Debt in one 4 year term.
The can is being "kicked down the road". Please don't kick it into the ocean, it will be billions of times harder to retrieve from the ocean than stopping a gulf oil leak.
FR is doing its usual 'liberal spin' on things.
When Obama was ahead and looking forward in 2008, he was 'exuding confidence', but when Romney acts like that, he's 'counting his chickens before they're hatched'.
The bias of FR is so obvious that it's laughable.
Wow. A lot of people are putting a lot of effort into cheerleading for their side today. I can't imagine the stress of having to come on newsvine day after day and posting such vitriolic drivel.
There are two parties. If they can't come to an agreement at this stage, both parties are to blame, not just the one you oppose.
“House Republicans on Wednesday morning were calling for the firing of the Republican Study Committee top staffer after he was caught sending e-mails to conservative groups urging them to pressure GOP lawmakers to vote against a debt proposal from Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio)”.
“Infuriated by the e-mails from Paul Teller, the executive director of the RSC, members started chanting “Fire him, fire him!” while Teller stood silently at a closed-door meetings of House Republicans”.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60035.html#ixzz1TKFoGISq
What a "political party" and these are the clowns that want another chance to run us into the ditch. You guys (GOP/TP) cannot even lead your own people let alone a whole country.
Americans,
Racists come on both sides of the political areana. Need you forget the remark made by Reid a few years ago about Obama? And now, well, he's his best buddy...so before you start taking shots at one side, you should look in the mirror there are racists on both sides.
American,
Go back to bed. The racist angle is a pre-college kind of effort. Your attempt to put Bachmann into the mix is pathetic. And in reality, 99%+ of Americans are more concerned with the economy and how it affects us in the short term/long term vs. the color of a persons skin. Hit the snooze button and dream up something realistic.
This is really the first time I've seen people demanding a legislative plan from the executive branch... is something a little backwards here? Oh i get it, it's because it's OBAMA, now you all want a plan... he can provide his vision, which he has, we all know what it is... cuts that republicans want, but tax revenue increase which republicans want... I mean is it me, or something ascrew here?
Geez, that compromise if you ask me... most republicans or right leaning individuals will bash the president - just for bashing sake... produce a logical, viable, reasonable argument.. PLEASE~!!!!!!!!!!!!! The extremist republicans like Bachmann are just well, CRAZY... .
See JB (speaker), you can't negotiate even with your own crowd, when they are CRAZY, STUBBORN heads that say it's my way or the highway.
The scream about debts, debts debts, but simply how to get there... they have no plans besides trimming 850billion - that's not a plan, it's peanuts.
Joe in Albany - Since it seems you are constantly collapsed, not that I'm say it's not warranted, but I shall take a merciful stab at responding to your post 1.2. Yes, Pres. Obama, did speak to working across the aisle to make compromises to get our country back on the road to recovery. Has he succeeded, in a word, no. But his intentions were honorable and correct. The Republicans, on the other hand, for 2 1/2 years have slapped away his hand and applied a scorched earth, stonewall and a total concrete head approach. Their vocabulary was reduced to NO and Hell, NO. Not exactly fertile ground for anything of consequence to grow. So, ascribing all the blame to the POTUS is just using tunnel vision to describe the big picture(in other words, reality). Your self pitying lament that America has seen its best days pass, just goes to show the shallow and self defeating conservative mindset. Your use of Spain, England and France as example of where America is headed, your words, "is well on its way, to becoming just like them, a has-been socialist mediocrity. The empires to which you allude, "best days" past while they were in no way, socialistic, their demise could be predicted by the past empires that preceded them since antiquity. The "American spirit", which has been the backbone of its greatness, is still there IMHO. The opportunities of near full employment based on human "sweat equity" that built our nation, have lost their value, mental labor is the "new frontier". This new reality can only be achieved through education and more resources need to be employed to attain the work skills of the future. We shall both await the verdict, of who the voters attach blame for a default or simply lowering the credit rating and accruing higher borrowing costs. We, I dare say believe the other side of our philosophical differences will incur the wrath and rejection the party chosen will receive. Nov. 2012 isn't that far away!
I have yet to hear that congresspersons will agree to surrendering their pay and benefits if us plain ordinary common folk don't get our checks in August-- for some people, that is all they have to live on. The V A does means testing on veterans-- Medicare should implement a means testing for people. After all, who is more important, the veteran who risked everything or the rich who risked NOTHING. Hint-- I volunteer at a vet center and my allegiance lies with my veterans.
Amused:
WOW, Kudos, great post. Maybe the best on the board today in my opinion. Get my vote, too bad I can only give one, this deserved more.
"A CBO analysis released Wednesday morning concludes that Reid's plan would reduce deficits over the next decade by $2.2 trillion -- $500 billion short of promised savings of $2.7 trillion. Democrats have been claiming their plan would meet the GOP demand that total savings should at least match the amount the debt ceiling is raised.
The CBO reported Tuesday, however, that the most recent proposal from House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, would cut spending by $850 billion rather than the $1.2 trillion proponents claimed it would save. Boehner's plan calls for at least another $1.6 trillion in deficit reduction partly through tax and entitlement reforms to be proposed by a congressional commission -- generating total savings of $2.8 trillion or more."
Reid - $500 BILLION short of his promise = $2.2 TRILLION reduction.
Boehner - $350 BILLION short of his goal = $2.8 TRILLION + reduction.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/07/27/debt.talks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Give it up MSNBC. It's clear who is doing the better job of planning and who wants to save the most money, no matter how you attempt to spin it.
Quick point - who other than Boehner has actually put anything in writing on the table with Finanacial Meltdown set to occur in less than 1 week? How is he boxed in? All he has to do is sit back and do nothing. Cut, Cap, and Balance has already passed the house. All he has to do now is block anything sent to the house and be exactly what he's been accused of - the leader of the party of "No". Want an extension on our credit - it's been passed by the House. Want to borrow more money any other way? Not happening.
The President's done nothing to help resolve this issue. Every statement he makes is an accusation against the Republicans. I don't know anyone stupid enough to believe that some one will try harder to work with you if you insult them other than our President and Harry Reid. Rather than do his job with Cut, Cap, and Balance, Reid called it the dumbest piece of legislation that he'd ever seen and tabled it. Essentially this means that Reid is blocking a debt extension and a balanced budget amendment that allows the government ten years to work it out.
All we keep hearing from the Democrats is "Tax the Rich!" Tax the Rich!" What I'd like to know is to where they will be spending all of the extra money that will be coming in? New wars? More billion dollar giveaways to big corporate campaign donors like GE and GMC (I guess these guys aren't rich)? Obviously, they are not planning on taking care of US Citizens as the President didn't say that he'd be cancelling any of these things as of August 2nd. He said he might be holding up on Social Security Payments.
It's easy to see through the Democrats and the scheme that they are hatching here. It's all political.
That's right, Bachmann's not a rascist,...just a homophobe.
John B,
Svenolafson,
A lot of interesting things in the discussion since I was able to get to FR, but this is the one that particularly caught my eye. It's a pretty clear statement of what's really going on in the Conservative Movement these days. Apparently a lot of people just aren't smart enough to vote the "right way", so Conservatives need to protect society by preventing those people from voting. How very egalitarian of them.
"the Club for Growth and the Heritage Foundation’s political arm -- oppose Boehner’s go-it-alone debt plan" the gop/tp gods have spoken no boner plan. when will the gop/tp start representing the american people that elected them? Oh wait... they were bought and paid for by special interest groups.
F... ALL this S...! Prepare launcher one with a BXL and slew 'Alpha Section, over. Surface to Surface case Zulu. youTube: Minuteman Launch 0:32 sec. Thank you JESUS. The country has snapped and the glue ain't never gonna work again.
pjam,
If Boehner and Repubs would just agree that they were wrong on taxes then we could bump that up to an even higher number. Cutting is only going to work so far before we start to do physical harm to the programs that are in use in this country.
Even with any plan that only cuts spending by an 'x' amount we will be back at this point within another few years because it is not a long term solution. We may get downgraded even if we pass a deficit reduction anyway if there is not enough cut from spending and enough increased revenue to show that we are even covering the interest rates.
A short term plan is not the answer, it has not been the answer for the past three months, why would it be the answer now? Short term just delays the inevitable stalemate, Republicans have already stated they will never raise taxes under any circumstance, which they have stayed true to so far.
We could cut Government spending to skin and bones, barely able to get buy paying for all the necessary services while cutting out welfare programs and letting the poverty rates increase again. However this would hurt America even further as people who depend on those welfare checks to live off of get kicked to the street.
You cannot spent your way out of a deficit, true, but you also cannot simple get out of one by cutting spending, you have to increase your income as well in order to have a healthy plan to getting out of debt. The only way for Government to increase income is to raise taxes or do so in conjuncture with a massive rewrite of the tax code law to close every loophole that businesses use to get out of paying taxes on all of their income. A majority of the tax breaks we give should also be rescinded for the time being and can be reinstated later on once we get the economy back on track.
Everyone has to give a pound of flesh for us to get out of this mess.
Maybe if Boner and Cantor didn't pop out for Happy Hour the other night, they could had this a done deal!
And so what!!!!??? I could give a damn if he feels boxed in... he put himself there. When you sell your soul to the devil, you might find yourself "boxed in" or worse.
I lost thousands today in my 401K... along with many fellow "middle-class-and-getting-lower-every-day" Americans because of Boehner's incoherent selfish antics... so I hope he and his GOP hypocrites feel more than just "boxed in" for many more years. It's what is deserved for not caring about what you pretend to represent just to get elected. Its what you get for running up the debt for 8 years then acting appalled at the debt. Absolute hypocrisy. Absolute lies.
John, I was thinking the EXACT same thing.
The Republicans just admitted that the only people who should vote are the people who will vote for their side. And that anyone voting for democrats should not have the right to vote. That sounds so similar to another country . . . you know, the one where one regime gets elected over and over, despite what the people want.
Dan, do you realise the irony in that post, considering the words of many conservatives who post here?
First and Final Thought On All of This
Back to the Drawing Board for 'Boxed In' Boehner
Boehner has to go back to the drawing board because he started drawing stick figures when he was supposed to create something in Photoshop.
John Boehner and the Republican TEA Drinking Party are way out of their league when it comes to dealing with complicated issues. The only reason they're at the table is due to the longevity of the Republican Caucus… but the Bachmann and the Rand are doing what the Donald only dreamed of doing, and that is bringing about its demise.
The Republicans have a Manifesto of sorts that is akin to other headlines. They only have one thing on their collective minds and that is to this country crumble like a cookie.
Not on my watch.
The Republicans are all about alienating everyone except for the Kings and the Barons. They still fail to realize the world is made up of more than that and that the peasants are the people that actually do all the work. And the simple fact the voters that have no jobs, no insurance, nor money, continue to vote for them is a troubling sign.
It's a sad state of affairs when a Constituency continuously threatens to throw people under the bus (out of office) for voting their conscience and not their Rush Limpbaugh Talking Points. The Republicans that want to do right are afraid of the Right that lie in the shadows; and that's a sad state of affairs.
Even though the Republicans continue to say 'No', we will continue to push forward.
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
Lousi J.
Could not say it better. Kudos. Remember the last Debt Reduction Bill they (GOP/TP) passed and how well that one worked out.
This Party is totally lost and has nothing to offer America except a lot of heart ache, unemployment, another recession and a record Economic Divide. Great Plan - NOT.
The people are getting really pissed right now, and at least currently, they are putting the blame where it belongs. At the feet of the GOP/TP Party. This is nothing more than the continuation of their failed Fiscal Policy of the previous Administration and the people know it.
If we lose our AAA rating we will have a major problem that we will be facing for at least a decade. Way to go GOP.
The teabaggers are not worried. They can lay this second recession right at the feet of Obama. That's what Rush, Loofa, Lipstick, and Beck will do, and their minions have not the critical thinking skills to question it.
Congratulations Tea Partiers--you've already lost, your leaders know it, and the next manipulation is already in place.
While the Conservative echo chamber has been telling you there's a massive groundswell of support for killing Medicare, privatizing Social Security, closing down a vast swath of the Federal government, and defaulting on the national debt if necessary to make it happen, anyone who considers other sources of information has wondered why the GOPTP would put itself into such an untenable position. The MSM has been shocked at every turn that Republican leaders continue to dig themselves in even deeper. The stock markets are just waking up to the possibility that a default might be possible. The Speaker of the House is pushing a plan that ratings agencies have ALREADY TOLD US will downgrade our debt.
Now we know why. The Tea Party organizers already know they're going to have to cave. They won't tell you that because their credibility disappears like fear of the Wizard of Oz. How do I know this? They've already announced their next move. Tea Party groups are now announcing efforts to mobilize for active protests at town hall meetings during the August recess. They would NOT do this if they weren't already planning to lose the debt ceiling battle. They intend to use your manipulated anger to produce an energized base and a perception in the media that approval for their position is much higher than the actual number of 21%. So here's your notice MSM--don't be surprised when Tea Party astroturf groups try to duplicate the same level of furor they achieved during the Affordable Care debate.
Conservatives will no doubt want to demand to know which Liberal rumor mill is propagating this outlandish tale. Huffington Post? Think Progess? Nope, try Glenn Beck. He announced on his Tuesday radio show that Conservatives need to go to the web site of one of the Tea Party groups and sign up right away for town hall protests. It was an interesting announcement, to say the least, between two segments about how it isn't too late to get everything Conservatives want including a balanced budget amendment.
It amazing that the Tea Bagger Terrorist are holding the United States and the people as hostage, due to their insane ideology of wanting smaller government with a bare minimum of revenues coming in.
As any sane person knows, this goal they have carved in stone is never going to happen. Just because these 80 or so people in the House bitch and moan, we can’t allow them and their handlers to dictate to the United States their demands.
They want such deep cuts, which would harm the middle class and the poor, while at the same time crush and chance of solving the problems that are really facing our nation such as jobs.
Let’s remember, this debt problem and jobs problem was created by W. Bush and President Obama has been trying to get us back on track.
2012 can’t come fast enough. We will throw these Tea Bagger Terrorist out.
Wow already......and the election isnt until 2012! Way to use that crystal ball! Screen print this one and file it under John B Des Moines!
FR:
And Mitch McConnell must be cackling with glee! Keeping the unemployment rate as high as possible is the only effective way of ensuring that Obama is a "one-term president," which is McConnell's stated "number one goal."
Oh, the wishful thinking of the liberals. You speak only to your patronizing friends and simply can't speak for the rest of us. Your attacks on the Tea Party and conservatives in general speak volumes. The narrow view you possess only applies to the small circle of friends that appear here daily. I have to tell you, listening to Forrest Gump (not Grump) has more meaning and clarity than the liberal cheering squad on FR.
In your opinion, giving Obama more money to spend (waste) is fantastic. To let the government keep on building it's debt ceiling is like a roof in a snow storm. The debt has reached epic proportions with the dems adding Trillions to an already heavy weight. Now they want to add more to it and more, and more... Are they testing the strength of the US economy with high unemployment and a reduced taxbase? Maybe Obama was right the other night when he said the US was an experiment... the democrats are in the lab tossing water on pure sodium just to see what will happen.
The republicans, on the other hand, are walking around, as usual, completely befuddled. It's the blind leading the blind in Washington. This makes me question the entire leadership potential of our government. Both sides are at war with each other and the casualties are the American people. Yes folks, that's us. We get to bear the brunt of their incompentence and lack of ability to protect the economy and our well being. Maybe it's time we realized this and have a total change of guard. We need to get people in Washington that will work together... on BOTH sides, for the good of us and not their pocketbooks.
The GOP/TP Party => The Hostage Party. If I cannot be the quarterback I am taking my ball and going home. Great ideology to try an rebuild a Nation on.
Talk about getting a life, are you serious? you really screen print and file posts? I will look for you on an episode of "hoarders" just to see if their is a Forrest Grump file cabinet!
LouisJ,
You know i have this fight every night now with my two year old son. I say "It's bath time" and he says "No Way. I stay here." Well he knows full well that he's getting in the bath and going to bed. But still every night he resists. Could he be a republican?
It all depend, does he abuse your pet's like kick them, well if he does that he is a REPUBLICAN .... LOL
Gee jollyoldsoul, you're unusually grumpy today. I don't see any reason to lash out at me as you have with several others today. I'm not the one who's organizing protests of a debt ceiling increase that hasn't yet been resolved.
An yes, feel free to consider it a crystal ball if you will. There will be people trying to disrupt town hall meetings during the August break and it will be tracked back to one of the entrenched Republican players who's now running a Tea Party organization.
The Conservative Movement already knows they've lost this round. What you're seeing now is kabuki theater.
From the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, on Boehner's budget proposal:
"House Speaker John Boehner's new budget proposal would require deep cuts in the years immediately ahead including Social Security and Medicare benefits for current retirees, the repeal of health care reform's coverage expenses, or wholesale evisceration of basic assistance programs for vulnerable Americans. The plan is, thus, tantamount to a form of "class warfare". If enacted, it could well produce the greatest increase in poverty and hardship produced by any law in modern history. This may sound hyperbolic, but it is not. The mathematics are inexorable."
Robert Greenstein.
Navy, when one connects the dots, do we only connect the liberal dots, or should we collectively connect all of the dots? hahahaha.
John B I appoligize for the grumpyness, Im under great duress lately. Im having to run a global IT dept from North America with out being able to hire here, well untill there is either a Presidential or Senate change. And then there is the feasibility study on moving our 60k+ employee business out of the US to am more business friendly climate. Then Im trying to wash what Im hearing from my independent friends who are not amused with the Washington antics but still sit center right in their beliefs. Then to make matters worse I am making myself stay on this blog to keep the lefts ideas fresh in my mind, but the endless stroking and ego manipulation on here can get nauseating to say the least . I try to refrain from being to nasty and I certainly dont like to call people names, but sometimes stuff slips out.
BrianB - it's this simple, work together... the Republicans don't want to work with the president... they said they want him to fail. Do you believe that is patriotic?
I'm not commenting to gather friends... I'm here because the president is attacked for being a good man. I support the president 100%. If you're here to find a friendthen MSNBC is definitely the wrong choice. You may want to try a Singles Website. If you want similar views, try FOX.
Bryan... I think the Republicans are two year olds. I wouldn't want to insult your son.
And yet somehow you think the Republicans are all making plans that involve TWO debt ceiling increases, including one in 2012, just because?
Of course not. Republicans are doing it deliberately for THEIR elections as well. Did you honestly think this was about saving the country? Most of us here already know it's more about creating filler for their campaign ads next year.
Obama is simply pushing it past 2012 to keep it from becoming a political issue for EVERYONE. Republicans are becoming distracted by making Obama a one-term president (which is apparently their only goal, America and its people be damned), and they are using the debt ceiling as political posturing to appeal to a fringe group of voters who don't know a damn thing about it.
Taking it off the table is the best thing. I'm sick of the bickering.
Speak up for your crew Jolly (it will make you feel better), tell your boss that the climate for business in the US has never been better in your lifetime (taxes at an all time low and plenty of unemployed, experienced people who will work for less than they should have to). Ask them to tell the truth, ask them if by business friendly they simply mean lowest wages possible. If you don't want to speak up, I will, and then you can printscreen and show it to them. Let me know if I can help.
jollyoldsoul1
Back in Sept. 2010, there was a chance to close tax loopholes that REWARD outsourcing jobs. The coward Republican Senators (100% of them) would not even have the balls to vote on the bill. The only thing ALL of the Republican Senators did was vote against the vote. Cowards don't want their vote on record.
LouisJ said:
BrianB - it's this simple, work together... the Republicans don't want to work with the president... they said they want him to fail. Do you believe that is patriotic?
I'm not commenting to gather friends... I'm here because the president is attacked for being a good man. I support the president 100%. If you're here to find a friendthen MSNBC is definitely the wrong choice. You may want to try a Singles Website. If you want similar views, try FOX.
Bryan... I think the Republicans are two year olds. I wouldn't want to insult your son.
Louis - The name is Brian. At least you can get that part right, can't you? Most of what you say is insulting enough to my intelligence. You grope the president with glee. You never see the negative side of what he is doing. Maybe you do see it, but ignore it, which makes you complacent with the general problem.
Liberals continually slam conservative ideas and principles without ever offering lucid (if you have any) thoughts. It could be you can't handle criticism of any sort because most sane people realize liberals for the most part are condecending, arrogant, emotional airheads. Why do you think conservatives laugh at you for the Obama worship you so abundantly display?
As far as you saying anything about republicans... have at it. If you noticed (I'm sure you didn't) I slam them too. So for anything displayed as an insult to the republicans by you... is pretty much juvenile simply because the way you go about it is like a kid throwing rocks in the schoolyard.
One of these days, the liberals might actually get a handle on how to cognitively express their dissatisfaction without slinging piles of dung. Until that happens, you and your cheering squad are pretty much an island unto yourselves.
Boehner kept alluding to being a small business man from Ohio. Right now his States unemployment is at 10.1 and McConnell's States is 10. unemployment.
If his ideas are so great for all of "the American people" as he said, why not try them on Ohio first and see how that works out for them. Give his ideas to his own States Legislators.
Your name is Brianb right? I said your name correctly, BrianB (oops, maybe I shouldn't have capitalized the B). The bad thing about you saying I said your name wrong is that you said your name wrong Brianb. If you want people to call you Brian, then get rid of the b at the end. If you're going to a be smart alec, at least find a good reason to without making yourself appear foolish and crazy.
I also replied to the other Bryan that commented about his 2 year old. You having a menstrual cycle or something? I never said anything negative toward you. But it sounds like you are on one of those Republican kicks of 'if you have nothing to say at all, then call people names...'
I have the funny feeling you have been wanting a confrontation with me for some time... sorry, I don't bite. No reason to get so emotional... it's just a blog.
"A CBO analysis released Wednesday morning concludes that Reid's plan would reduce deficits over the next decade by $2.2 trillion -- $500 billion short of promised savings of $2.7 trillion. Democrats have been claiming their plan would meet the GOP demand that total savings should at least match the amount the debt ceiling is raised.
The CBO reported Tuesday, however, that the most recent proposal from House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, would cut spending by $850 billion rather than the $1.2 trillion proponents claimed it would save. Boehner's plan calls for at least another $1.6 trillion in deficit reduction partly through tax and entitlement reforms to be proposed by a congressional commission -- generating total savings of $2.8 trillion or more."
Reid - $500 BILLION short of his promise = $2.2 TRILLION reduction.
Boehner - $350 BILLION short of his goal = $2.8 TRILLION + reduction.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/07/27/debt.talks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Give it up MSNBC. It's clear who is doing the better job of planning and who wants to save the most money, no matter how you attempt to spin it.
All well and good if it has nothing to do with anything but saving money, pjam, but that isn't the whole story. The Boehner plan is DESIGNED to decimate discretionary, non-military spending and create a second round of massive cuts in Medicare, Social Security, and other entitlement programs. It's INTENDED to balance the budget on the backs of the middle class. The PLAN is to fundamentally change the way Americans interact with their government, teaching us to not depend on it for any services, only upward redistribution of wealth and corporate welfare.
The fact of the matter is, there's simply no reason to tie budget reductions to debt ceiling increase other than Conservative recalcitrance. They are separate issues and have ALWAYS been treated as such in the past. This "crisis" exists because the Right wills it to be so.
John B, you are dead right. This is a crisis manufactured by the ultra-right to serve their ideological goals. It is a tactc that the conservatives have been honing for years, as documented by journalist Naomi Klein in Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism. Further evidence of their true intentions is documented also by Matt Taibbi in Griftopia: Bubble Machines, Vampire Squids, and the Long Con that Is Breaking America, by Thomas Frank in The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Ruined Government, Enriched Themselves, and Beggared The Nation, and Robert Scheer in The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.
And above, in Navy's post #1.1, we see what's really behind the chaos: Ultra-right efforts to dismantle environmental regulation and the recently-passed re-regulation (partial) of banking. This is exactly the kind of maneuver both Klein and Frank in particular describe in such detail.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/27/7178356-first-thoughts-boehners-boxed-in#c56385081
The Tea Party is a tiny sliver of the national legislature. It represents only about 22% of the electorate. American voters in 2010 did not cast their ballots to experience the Republican misbehavior now going on, but to deal with the economy, employment, and partisan gridlock. The Republicans have betrayed the trust of the nation.
I found these comments collapsed in the whole #1 thread above...this post is my way of voting the 100th "like" vote...(there are more good posts! Take a look above!)
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community
Off the radar but…
A cherished friend sent me an article last night which I consider to be important enough to
highlight.
Given Michelle & Marcus Bachmann’s proclivity for wearing their anti-gay views on their sleeves,
while bilking Medicaid under the premise that they can ‘pray the gay’ away!
Now you do the basic math here and this equals almost 5 teenagers per year in her district.
As an elected official WHAT is she doing to address this epidemic? Besides absolutely NOTHING!
If this isn’t outrageous enough:
I don’t care which side of the aisle you sit on – kids are dying while Michele & Marcuscontinue DENYING!
#1 - Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:04 AM EDT
US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired
When will it end?
I know where we can find the $350 Billion without any problem. Repeal the Tax Incentives / Loopholes for the Oil and Big Business. Bingo, problem solved everybody gets something and we are now all happy so stop the crap and move on.
While the Nation is hanging on the “Contrived” Debt Ceiling fiasco the GOP/TP is still on the rampage against Americans trying to use this as cover for some more repugnant ideology and attacks on US Citizens going on behind the scenes.
We have all read about how the GOP/TP is holding the FAA funding hostage until they get agreement on their anti-union legislation that they (GOP/TP) attached to the FAA funding bill. Right now the airlines are not collecting the $200 Billion or so in Federal Taxes on plane tickets so you would think tickets would be lower (tax holiday) by about 7-10%. Think again, the airlines increased their ticket prices by the amount of the expired taxes basically making a win fall profit from the FAA crisis and guess who is paying the bill.
The hypocrisy continues from the right. The big three Boehner, McConnell and Cantor keep harping on lowering the debt and “Fiscal Responsibility” while back in the Bush Administration all three of them voted for the two unfunded wars, the two unfunded tax cuts and the unfunded Drug Bill. Price tag $3.4 Trillion Dollars and STILL growing. “Fiscal Responsibility” my butt, how about Hypocrisy and lairs.
Governor Walker steps up his assault on the voting rights of Wisconsin citizens. He has passed a new Voter ID Law, about 6 States or so have these new laws and more coming. You get these ID’s whether they are a valid driver’s license or a State ID from your local DMV. Ok, fair enough. Even though there is NO “Voter Fraud” problem in this country (less than 44 one millionth of one percent reported fraud cases) I have no objection to a valid ID. So what does Walker do, closes down about 10 DMV sites all in Democratic Control Districts. This is all about rigging the upcoming elections where the GOP/TP folk are in serious trouble of losing the State Senate and have Walker recalled like a Toyota with bad breaks. He is dangerous to the very fabric of this country and he will be recalled.
With less than a week to go before this Country defaults on their Debt obligations the GOP/TP is preparing to strip this Nation of Environmental Regulations (being pushed by the Koch Brothers Coal and Big Oil Companies).
Here is another great GOP/TP idea. Let’s see if we can destroy the economy of the United States and put us into Bankruptcy and while we are at it let us destroy the Environment as well. Connect the dots people this is starting to look more and more like a very bad SCI FI movie. Heck, most of us will not have any money to by gas masks anyway.
And let us not forget those pesky new laws that are supposed to keep Wall Street and the Big Banks under control so we do not have a repeat of the previous Administration’s meltdown.
.
#1.1 - Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:05 AM EDT
Bryan, hope you compromise with your tot baby as much as possible. It will pay off tremendously in happiness for everyone. All the best,
It is not Boehner who is boxed in, nor is it President Obama who is boxed in,...it is "WE" the American people who are boxed in and facing either painful cuts or tax increases...and this is the result of our poor financial situation which was brought about by many Presidents and Congresses who sent our tax dollars chasing every conceivable social and world wide ill.
Just look at this story, which appeared Today on MSNBC, "Your Social Security will change, WHETHER OR NOT there's a debt deal...and to think not long ago WE were told quote, "There is nothing wrong with social security....don't let them change social security"! Well evidently....something is wrong with social security!
pjam09- It is actually $2.45 Trillion because the CBO says it will save $850 billion instead of $1.2 trillion. You must be a very trusting person to assume they can get a congressional commission some time down the road to do tax and entitlement reform. Do you honestly think the Republicans will go for tax reform or the Democrats go for entitlement reform? Neither plan will get done so it is a moot point.
It is a great thing that the handful of wrong here will have little say in the next election. With all of your name calling rants you should have a big time out.
The crazy sick teanuts are destroying our country, wake up America.
For the past 30 years, our legislators (Republican and Democrat) have enacted more public programs and have treated the necessary financial commitment as if they had a revolving credit card (payments spread-out over time) to pay for it; instead of a charge card (30-days to pay in full). Everyone can understand if they go over budget by a few million dollars due to a natural disaster or structural failure of infrastructure. But this has all come to a head and needs to be dealt with in a responsible manner and on a long-term basis.
Taxpayers enjoy the credit card method of payments; it is something they can get their minds around. In reality, it is doable; but not when legislators don't setup a rainy-day fund to absorb the downturns of the normal business cycles and / or financial crises. That too is like establishing a savings account and should be another idea taxpayer's minds can get around. Nothing difficult here.
For us to get this right, we must cut the fat out of government programs, increase tax rates (because of the deductions, loopholes, and tax credits); or we could eliminate all deductions, loopholes, and tax credits, reduce the marginal tax rates and demand that our government create a rainy-day fund.
I'm not really sure, but, I think we could have easily dealt with the costs of bailing-out the banks, automotive industry, and long-term unemployment and safety net programs had we demanded responsible government fiscal policies 30 years ago. I do believe there is a chance that I would have been correct. This is the way the newest legislation should be framed around.
Boehner's boxed in? Wow. Who would've seen that coming? <snark.>
Seriously. Recruiting and electing crazy people to your caucus has some downsides. I don't really want to hear about the GOP infighting problem.
It's self inflicted.
Well said, bilweeler.
Agreed! They are shooting holes in their own boat!
The Reich Wings GOP House are shooting holes in the American Boat and giving very few Americans (only the 1%and 2%) life preservers.
They are deliberately allowing the rest of us to drown!
It's time for a real Boston Style Tea Party and throw the TEA/GOP overboard without preservers.
The ship is going down and the teapublicans are knocking over women and children to get on the limited lifeboats!
"A CBO analysis released Wednesday morning concludes that Reid's plan would reduce deficits over the next decade by $2.2 trillion -- $500 billion short of promised savings of $2.7 trillion. Democrats have been claiming their plan would meet the GOP demand that total savings should at least match the amount the debt ceiling is raised.
The CBO reported Tuesday, however, that the most recent proposal from House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, would cut spending by $850 billion rather than the $1.2 trillion proponents claimed it would save. Boehner's plan calls for at least another $1.6 trillion in deficit reduction partly through tax and entitlement reforms to be proposed by a congressional commission -- generating total savings of $2.8 trillion or more."
Reid - $500 BILLION short of his promise = $2.2 TRILLION reduction.
Boehner - $350 BILLION short of his goal = $2.8 TRILLION + reduction.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/07/27/debt.talks/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Give it up MSNBC. It's clear who is doing the better job of planning and who wants to save the most money, no matter how you attempt to spin it.
Are you paid by the post, pjam, or is there some other reason for you to cut and past the same thing onto every subthread?
Kind of like how the Democrat party was dismantled by fascist liberal progressives who served and supported the likes of Hitler and Mussolini, because that was the future of governance......well it looks like your party took that to heart.
And it seems that in order to counter that the Republican Party now has it's own problems with the high-jacking of the Tea Party by Neocons and Social Conservatives.
If you want any change that benefits this country in 2012, then vote Libertarian!
Looks like someone slipped past the front desk at the Beck Asylum.
LOL! Nothing more needs to be added! Thanks, John!
i think it might be dawning on republicans that tea partiers hate everything. EVERYTHING.
including republicans.
tea party motto: if it's not burning to the ground, light it on fire.
 xxx
The damage has already been done. A US Treasury obligation is considered the safest investment in the world but now investor confidence is flowing away. Bond rating agencies and the investors who rely on them are rapidly losing conviction that debt issued by a dysfunctional government is a risk-free bet that deserves a top-notch credit rating.
If investors lose faith in the Congress and the government to create a solid security for the buyers of that security then you get the downgrade.
Heading off an outright default may not be enough to avoid a downgrade of the top AAA rating assigned to U.S. Treasury debt. A missed interest payment would almost certainly bring a downgrade. But failure to reach a deal by Aug. 2, or a smaller deal that lacks teeth, also could cost the government its AAA rating.
At some point, if we keep talking around this issue the market will become concerned about our willingness to pay, not necessarily our ability to pay, but our willingness. The worst-case scenario is our cost of capital as a nation goes up significantly as our creditors hold that attitude against us.
A credit rating downgrade could, over time, add up to 0.7 percentage points to bond yields. That's on the order of $100 billion over time that we will add to our funding costs. Over time Treasury yields could rise 60 to 70 basis points on a credit downgrade, a huge number because we're talking a permanent increase in borrowing costs.
Because U.S. Treasuries are the benchmark for safe investments, even a small rise in interest rates would have widespread impact:
Higher rates on Treasuries would raise the cost of new government borrowing, increasing the budget deficit.
Rates on U.S. Treasuries are also the benchmark for rates on bonds issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to provide capital for mortgages. Raising the cost of mortgages would put more downward pressure on home prices and further destabilize the housing industry.
State and local governments, already struggling from painful budget cuts, would see their borrowing costs rise. That could force them to make further spending cuts, raise taxes or both.
Higher rates would lower the value of debt already held by investors. U.S. banks, which directly or indirectly hold roughly $1.7 trillion in Treasuries, would see their capital base shrink, forcing them to cut back on lending
As the dollar continues to trade lower against other currencies what happens to inflation? And if inflation goes up, can the Federal Reserve in fact control interest rates?
It's a rolling disaster that is unnecessary and can be avoided.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895856/ns/business-eye_on_the_economy/
Question for Ira.
Ira have you ever heard of anything good coming out of a default for the entity that defaulted?
GM and Chrysler defaulted on their bonds and lefty liberals claim them as one of Barry's big success stories.
Forrest Grump..
Actually, Forrest, if you consider a bankruptcy a default then yes.
...and actually the US has defaulted twice before on its debts in the 1790's. Both were on purpose and with the blessing of the President and Congress.
There is no good that can come from the default on our debt....the ramifications and. if you will I term I hate, the trickle down effect will be catastrophic. The dollar has been trading lower against foreign currencies for days and will continue to do so.
Short, non boring answer, no good at all.
Joe:
Apples/Oranges.
Those who deny that a US default has consequences are woefully uninformed and would put this nation in extreme financial distress to prove their point.
I expect you to make a full written apology here on FR if there's a default with serious consequences.
Joe in Albany
GM and Chrysler defaulted on their bonds and lefty liberals claim them as one of Barry's big success stories.
GM went into bankruptcy and came out of bankruptcy debt free and making money. Back on the stock exchange. Thousands and thousands of jobs saved, so yes...a huge success.
Also saved the US auto industry...how can you call that a failure?
Nobody considers them the same thing, because they're different. That's why you call bankruptcy 'bankruptcy' and default 'default'.....
Ira, as I said above downgrade is almost inevitable, but it is not the end of the world, or the end of extremely low interest rates. From what I understand to avoid downgrade we will need to cut/raise $4T, minimum. Neither the Ryan plan, nor any speeches from the President indicate this is likely. For example, the speech when he stated that $2.4T in cuts are too much. Also, the Democrats refusal to put structural changes to Medicare and SS on the table means we cannot cut where the real spending is in the future.
They, the Democrats, could advocate for the Peoples Budget, and I wish they would, because that would spell out how much taxes would be required to maintain the entitlement programs in their current form.
Thanks Ira, one more question please. Do you think my 401K will turn into a 201K again? I had made such a nice comeback, unfortunately it sounds like I can probably kiss that good bye again.
bilweeler and Ira: I simply answered Grumps question about whether there was "anything good coming out of a default for the entity that defaulted?". How you two get from there to the comments below is a mystery to me.
I expect you to make a full written apology here on FR if there's a default with serious consequences.
Also saved the US auto industry..how can you call that a failure?
BTW Ira, Do the bankruptcy courts usually impose a 100% loss on the secured creditors and reward the companies unions and govt stockholders or was an exception made for GM and Chrysler?
Alan, NJ..
If we default, Treasury yields will go up 60 to 70 basis points, which will absolutely result in an increase in interest rates. That's almost immediate and certain.
The other issue you raise, longer-term, if we don't reduce the public debt the rating agencies would probably downgraded us anyway.
The idea that you can have any kind of sustained economic growth with trillion dollar deficits each year is absurd. That's why I'm for Simpson-Bowles or the Gang of Six Plan that cuts the deficit on a 3:1 basis, slowly, so as not to disturb the fragile economy.
Forrest Grump
Thanks Ira, one more question please. Do you think my 401K will turn into a 201K again? I had made such a nice comeback, unfortunately it sounds like I can probably kiss that good bye again.
Forrest, I said this yesterday, if we default the Dow will go down 1000 or more points on Monday and the Bond Market will be decimated. You'll see the movement by Friday. The dollar has already been trading lower in relation to other currencies for days and will continue to do so. The problem is, once you default you can't take it back and it shows the investment community that you can pay but are unwilling to and that simply does not instill confidence.
Ira, you should have gone with the Politico article- it had more substance. It's not JUST raising the debt ceiling- it's the size of the debt.
The ratings agencies understand that adding four trillion to the debt in just two years is unsustainable. Obama's spending is what caused that, and the fact is, he does not even understand the problem. From the Politico article
If Obama administration officials see the ratings agencies as amateurs, who do not know how D.C. works, what the heck do they think the market thinks of them?
This administration os staffed with spendaholics who are deliberately blind to the ramifications of their ill conceived policies. Moreover, the out and out corruption of robbing the country blind to pay off Obama donors is tolerated by a besotted media, but not the ratings agencies.
We've never faced such a financial crisis- but we've never before suffered under such incompetence and corruption. It's historic- unprecedented, even.
NoJo..
You're right I think...
The concept of debt reduction is fully addressed by the 6 Plan and Bowles-Simpson which as I said today and many times before, I am for.
Both those plans take the debt down $4 trillion over ten years.
Absent default, the size of that debt reduction would be more than enough to satisfy the rating agencies, the IMF and our creditors and keep the AAA rating.
It's not that hard...almost everyone agree on the $4 Trillion number as a great start.
@Ira
I really do not think default is likely, even if the debt ceiling is not raised. Current revenues are enough to cover interest payments, and other short-term needs such as SS and Medicare can be covered by competent cash management. The real problem in this scenario is what government departments to completely close down. That is the contingency plan I would hope the Administration has ready.
Alan, NJ
Call me a pessimist but, barring a miracle, I think we will default.
So you're saying we can pay debt service , military and some others..the rest too bad.
Cherry pick the others...close some services and offices, furlough workers..forgot that part.
How about the intergovernmental debt? About $4 trillion of the SS fund is intergovernmental debt? Wait...default in the debt and we can't redeem the Treasury IOU's and then SS is really in trouble.
The only thing that gets paid under your scenario is debt service and then it's pay as you go.
You're just postponing the inevitable.
Joe in Albany - I heard this morning that Chrysler is reporting a $388 Million loss this quarter. Obama might have bailed them out, but Chrysler doesn't have it's house in order. How can the bailout be effective when Chrysler continues along the same path of losing money? If they declare bankruptcy in the next couple of years, all that bailout money will have been wasted, not unless a new bailout is given to them... which effectively destroys all possibility of them EVER getting their books going in the right direction. Why should they care if the government keeps on stepping in to save their butts?
Alan and Ira, I am not even sure a downgrade is going to impact interest rates anywhere near 60-70 bps. I would bet at least a third of traders and so called experts think it wont impact pricing at all because what is the alternative and rates may even go lower because of a sell off in equities. T-Bills are not going to be replaced as the world's safest investment and if there is any sell off in equities and global investments as a result where is that money going to go. Demand for T-bills will only continue to keep interest rates down. There is another third that thinks rates will go up and the other third that thinks it will have no impact. Given that rates havent moved much and pricing should already reflect a downgrade if its inevitable, one could surmise that it will have minimal impact on rates.
I think all this discussion on the debt ceiling has zero impact on current treasuries or social security but over time definitely impacts government services and programs.
Just one more thing...
I had this discussion yesterday with Mixed Bag, but it may be worth repeating.
If Simpson-Bowles or the 6 Plan is adopted, the President...no matter who he/she is...will pretty much have their hands tied when it comes to spending. The limits will have been set and the economy should respond. A balanced approach will increase revenues, decrease spending, spur growth as it takes away the uncertainties of a drop in our credit rating and increase demand. Jobs growth should begin to increase.
So, to me the next election is going to be about social issues (and of course the economy but not so much) and I'd rather have the Obama social agenda than the far right's.
This is probably too much of a simplification, but I hope you get the idea.
Ira, the government cant default on paying itself for the social security amounts. It can issue scrip or basically print more money. You should read the WSJ as it follows the technical aspects of this as it does a pretty good job of explaining that Social security will get paid no matter what and that there is plenty of revenue to pay interest payments on the debt. It really comes down to priorities to vendors like defense contractors, government services and payroll, payments to states for reimbursements on medicare and welfare etc. There is no chance that debt or social security doesnt get paid and no chance of an actual default.
@Kirk-2957282
That's what I'm hearing as well. Even if the US is downgraded, its still the safest relative investment.
@Ira
Yep, just delaying the inevitable.
The technical default of 1979 increased our interest rate by 60 basis points, and that was a short term event affecting only $120M in treasury securities. If this comes down to a real default affecting a far greater sum of money, caused by a radical split in the government it makes sense the damage should be AT LEAST that bad.
Ira, I'm still interested in hearing your thoughts on the following from #4.10:
BTW Ira, Do the bankruptcy courts usually impose a 100% loss on the secured creditors and reward the companies unions and govt stockholders or was an exception made for GM and Chrysler?
Ira, when has there ever been a presidency dominated by social issues rather than economic, war or global issues? Just not going to happen as economic issues will always dominate in good times and bad. I also think just like Obama has much stronger far left personal positions but meanders to the middle like on gay marriage or anti gun laws to avoid alienating independent voters. That would be the same thing with a republican candidate. May have stronger conservative social opinions but for the purpose of getting reelected, such candidate would meander to the middle.
Kirk-2957282..
Wow...so you're saying the effect of a defult...the non payment of our interest obligations to the bond holders....will have no impact on Treasury yields. That coupled with an absolute certain drop in our credit rating...again no impact?
We default and yields go up immediately.
As to the market having absorbed the possibility of a default...huh?
Yields have been around this point for almost a year..where's the "built in" factor.
Just my opinion...I do hope I'm wrong. Won't have wait to find out will we.
Tick tock and no one is listening.
Joe, the answer is no and of course there is no evidence that if GM and Chrysler had filed a plan of reorg under Chapter 11 and the government had provided debtor in possession financing because the banks couldnt at the time, that they wouldnt be in the exact or even better financial position as they are today. There is zero evidence that the bailout saved a single job or did anything different to improve GM's balance sheet than a reorg plan would have except to reward the unions over the lenders in contravention of established US law.
Ira, to have a default would mean that the US would stop paying its interest obligations. Why do you think a default would happen? No one is predicting a default and if they were holders and option traders would be huge sellers of T-bills which they are not. I am not going to predict whether a downgrade impacts yields all I am saying is that there are some so called experts and lots of traders who dont think it will impact yields because they have nowhere else to invest their money and US treasuries will still be the safest investment in the world. You have pointed out the connundrum in that you would already see current t-bills trading down or yields going up and yes built in to the pricing if a downgrade was inevitable. So its not inevitable or that traders dont think that it will impact pricing one or the other. Markets already absorb expected events that will change the yield far in advance of the actual event.
Kirk-2957282
GM and Chrysler DID file a Chapter 11 reorganization plan and did receive debtor in possession financing of $2 billion dollars from the feds as no bank in their right mind would lend them a dime. As they could not possibly receive financing from any other source than the federal governemt, the only other choice would have been liquidation.
Liquidation...thousands and thousands of jobs lost at GM and the subcontractors and suppliers who provide parts. Not a single job saved?
By the way, I am sure Fiesty, Navy, John A and others must have very strong opinions of Mr. Soros avoidance of having to comply with the wonderful Dodd-Frank legislation right? I am sure they are all up in arms of this hedge fund titan giving back investors money so he can trade his measly $24 billion family wealth without any transparency, regulation and oversight. Where is the outrage? Come on guys lets be consistent.
Ira, but no plan of reorg was filed and no vote of lenders secured and unsecured was made. I agree that the government stepped in to assist in financing because the banks were not solvent at the time but that had nothing to do with the plan of reorg and the elimination of their liabilities. They were never going to be liquidated because both companies were making operating profits they just couldnt service their debt. They obviously were viable companies without any debt. Clearly if the choice were liquidation or reorg, jobs were saved. My premise is that a liquidation wasnt a real possibility. What would have happened was that vendor and union contracts would have been renegotiated and the lenders would have become the shareholders rather than the unions and the government as bankruptcy law would have mandated.
Kirk-2957282..
Last post as I need to get back to work..
I really do know what a technical default is defined as and may I suggest you read my other posts about defaulting on the other obligations you choose to ignore as well as the trickle down effects of default..
Tell me how Treasuries remain a safe bet again...there is no other choice....what else is there? The impact of default has been absorbed? The markets have shrugged off the thought of default as an impossibility. The reality is that it has become a real possibility and therefore there has been no absorption for the "non event". How's the dollar doing against other currencies...down how much? It's just starting to sink in...market down over 200 in the last 3 days and already down over 100 today.
Yep...no impact for those who see "default" s the abilitry to pay interest only.
Kirk-2957282
Ira, but no plan of reorg was filed and no vote of lenders secured and unsecured was made.
Again..huh..
From Wikipedia...unedited.
The General Motors Chapter 11 reorganization of automobile manufacturer General Motors and some of its subsidiaries was implemented through section 363 of Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York. The United States government-endorsed reorganization plan enabled the NGMCO Inc[1] ("New GM") to purchase the continuing operational assets of the old GM.[2][3][4] Normal operations, including employees compensation, warranties, and other customer service were uninterrupted during the bankruptcy proceedings.[2] Operations outside of the United States were not included in the court filing.[2]
The company received debtor-in-possession financing to complete the process. GM filed for Chapter 11 reorganization in the Manhattan New York federal bankruptcy court on June 1, 2009 at approximately 8:00 am EST. June 1, 2009 was the deadline to supply an acceptable viability plan to the U.S. Treasury. The filing reported US$82.29 billion in assets and US$172.81 billion in debt.[5][6] [7][8][9]
After the Chapter 11 filing, effective Monday, June 8, 2009, GM was temporarily removed from the Dow Jones Industrial Average and replaced by Cisco Systems. From Tuesday 2 June, old GM stock has traded Over the Counter (Pink Sheets/OTCBB), initially under the symbol GMGMQ[10] and currently under the symbol MTLQQ.
On July 10, 2009, a new entity completed the purchase of continuing operations, assets and trademarks of GM as a part of the 'pre-packaged' Chapter 11 reorganization.[11][12] As ranked by total assets, GM's reorganization marks one of the largest corporate Chapter 11 reorganizations in U.S. history. The Chapter 11 filing was the fourth-largest in U.S. history, following Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., Washington Mutual and WorldCom Inc.[13] Under section 363, a new entity with the backing of the United States Treasury was formed to acquire profitable assets, with the new company planning to issue an initial public offering (IPO) of stock in 2010.[14] The remaining pre-petition creditors claims are paid from the former corporation's assets.[11][14]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Chapter_11_reorganization
Ira, your totally missing my point. I am not personally predicting anything as if I knew what was going to happen, I would be a wealthy man. If you are certain if your views of a default, then you should be putting your money on that bet and you can be a very wealthy man after paying half or more of it to the government of course. I was telling you what current investors are doing and betting on. You really dont understand why T-Bills are a safe bet? There are many many levels down from AAA rating on the ratings scale before you get anywhere close to a rating that would be high yield or junk. So lets say they downgrade to AA which is what would happen and thats still very high investment grade bond. So there are trillions of dollars of investable cash on any given moment that is looking for the safest investment possible. What other investment besides US Treasuries is going to replace it as the place to invest such cash? I do think the markets see a default as not going to happen but I think they are not sure what to do with a default which is why I said it seems like the camps are divided into thirds. I do think a downgrade will impact equities but that only means it will have less impact on Treasuries as equities get sold, the cash will be invested in US treasuries which will LOWER interest rates. A lower dollar also means LOWER interest rates so you are confirming what I said previously. Finally, I tend to try to find out what smarter people than me are doing so thats all I was reporting, certainly not trying to upset you.
Ira, why are you arguing with me over the process and ignoring the substance. You knew what I meant. The government filed a reorg plan and thats never done. The debtor files the reorg plan and then if someone like the government or lender or prospective buyer wants to it can file a competing plan that the judge will review and potentially have an auction between competing plans. In most cases, the debtors plan is filed and negotiated among various classes of lenders. You know this didnt take place so why are you arguing with me. In fact what you provided makes my case for me in that operations werent interrupted and if the government had stayed out, the debtors would have become the shareholders according to priorities established by bankruptcy law. That wast done
My main stock holdings have dropped over 8% in ten days, and it sounds like it is just the tip of the iceberg.
Waaah, waaaahh, waaah -
Kirk - you are spewing (and whinning about the facts not supporting you) again.....
You must be in some very risky stocks as the market has moved maybe 3% after hitting 12,750 but its been in the same trading range for awhile. I would bet equities will get hit with concerns over a downgrade
Stupid, what are you even talking about? Besides the GM issue I am not spewing anything and there was no whining. We are discussing T-bills and stuff like that so dont worry yourself too much I dont think either side has talking points for you to get worked up about
Why so upset about anything George Soros does, Kirk? As a wealthy man he's one of the "job creators", isn't he?
Ira, notice that you proved Kirk wrong and he dismissed your evidence on an imaginary technicality? Notice how he makes statements of fact without any back up in support of those statements? That's his normal modus operandi.
Oh John if I could only tell you about my Soros knowledge and connection you might even get a chuckle. If you only knew. Why are you being so dismissive and silly about my comments. I didnt provide any evidence of anything in my arguments as I was complaining about the facts of what happened with GM not indicating that the facts were something else. So lets break this down simpler for you. I was offering up tongue in cheek given all the whining and such regarding the wealthy and who funds all the loony left web sites that are used by many on this board, that it would be interesting if anyone was going to critique their master on this board. Since Soros really is a trader with a very small private equity shop, I doubt he is much of a job creator as taking large bets on currency fluctuations really is only creating business for banks but who knows and I dont care. I was being funny about Dodd-Frank etc so be snarky all you want.
Second, I dont need to cite anything as its basic knowledge at this point that the government bailed out GM. Its basic knowledge that the government provided a reorg plan pursuant to which the unions were given the lion share of the ownership although they were unsecured creditors. Its basic knowledge that secured creditors come first and would have been the owners of GM in a standard reorg. So what imaginary technicality are you actually talking about? The fact that I OPINE that GM would have survived without the political favor to the unions and this back scratching that jobs were saved is incorrect is just that an OPINION. But the facts arent in dispute on this one so modus operandi do I have?
By the way, have I ever personally attacked you? Have I ever done anything but call out differences in opinions, facts and judgements? Why would you prefer to attack and deflect rather than prove that I was wrong? Nothing Ira provided except the "technicality" that the government provided a reorg plan which was forced down GM and the bankruptcy court rather than a company provided one disputed what I said? In fact you deflected the substance which was not one job was saved rather they just juggled shareholders and provided a political favor to the unions and both you and Ira convienently deflected by personally attacking me rather than even trying to dispute that conclusion. The reason is you cant so you personally attack. My wife was from Iowa and she and I shared small midwestern values and I can see that living in Des Moines has turned you into an urban nasty person that has forgotten what it means to be nice to their neighbors.
Got it;
We should take your word for the evilness of Soros because you have personal knowledge you can't share.
There's no need for you to provide support for your arguments because you're just saying what "everyone knows."
You don't attack individuals. Not even in comments like the above. Enjoy both your special expertise and your victimhood.
Awwww JohnB got beat and decided to take his ball and go home haha
Please feel free to explain how that happened, moron. It should be as entertaining as your Liberal/fascist/Tea Party coopted by the neocons post.
Never said that Soros was evil I just said you would chuckle if you knew ( for example hypothetically if I worked for Soros that would have been a chuckling fact dont you think). John get over it, I cant believe how much you guys want to deflect and say something about special expertise or victimhood when neither of these things was ever raised. I am definitely not a victim but I may have special expertise but you guys really dont care if I did or not so what difference does it make if my expertise doesnt fit your already held views on a topic.
As for providing support, I have done so many times and when I do that, either Navy calls me a thug or Stupid says I am just stating RNC talking points. I have cited WSJ articles, provided google links and then I get a comment back that says more spewing of unsupported nonsense. So why do I bother when I get the exact same response as you gave if I did. Besides you deflected again and totally ignored my response as explain to me what argument needed support. What aspect of what I said did I need to support. You already have Ira's link and if he had provided the entire information it would have told you who became the new shareholders so what were you expecting from me. Did you not already know that the unions and their benefit plans became owners of GM under the reorg plan? What argument of mine that was opinion did I need to support. If I told you that it was raining here in chicago you want me to link the weather channel report for you?
I dont think calling you out for being nasty to me is attacking you. You were and and you certainly cant deny it so whats the issue. The level of deflection is amazing. Its like dealing with my kids when you answer their questions and they keep saying "Why". John, if you disagree that unions were given a political favor with GM explain to me why they were favored over secured creditors? If you think jobs were saved explain to me why GM is making an operating profit today that is somehow different than the operating profit they would have made with the lenders as owners? If I were you I would have said that if the lenders were owners they would have renegotiated the union and non performing plants harder and jobs would have been lost and I would have said your probably right but maybe with a better business model for the future but who knows. Instead you want to attack me and deflect, its a symptom of empty arguments.
Or do you want to disagree about T-Bill defaults? Downgrades? What is it that bugs you so in Des Moines?
Jeff P-14
"Nobody considers them the same thing, because they're different. That's why you call bankruptcy 'bankruptcy' and default 'default'....."
That is because they are not the same thing. First comes default, then bankruptcy.
John Boehner and the Republican company have wasted time and there is no time left to waste. President Obama will have to yet again do the Congress Job even though he has told them to get their act together.
The Congress is a joke. We are in a crises and they are all about some rich folk that have their own agenda.
It's sad when the president has to do everything and the Republican leadership has flat out said they want to see him fail. I mean, WTH? That's straight up treasonous as well as poisonous. That sends a message to the rest of the world dictators to continue to destroy your people because we're trying to do it here.
I really believe today's Republicans are psychopaths. It's the old "we had to burn down the village to save it" mentality. The antics of House Republicans have already hurt our economy, what good is winning the fight to cut entitlement spending if more people end up on welfare and unemployment because Republicans reversed the economic recovery?
LouisJ, While they are holding the debt ceiling hostage, the FAA is limping along due to the Republican attempt to change the unions ability to organize workers. The results are 4,000 people furloughed. Private contractor workers laid off on airport construction sites. Failure to renew the tax on airline tickets, money lost to the U.S. Treasury.
The party of NO on its path of destroying all it's path.
This current GOP/TP Controlled Congress is on path to be the worst one in the History of this Country. Nice Job GOP/TP. Something to be really proud of.
You keep up the "Obstructionism" and see how it plays out in 2012. The people are wise to your constant NO NO NO trying to make President Obama a failure and totally ignoring what you were elected to do. Create Jobs, Stimulate the Economy, improve Education.
How come we are not hearing anything about Jobs in this whole mess. Jobs is the fastest and best way to turn this around but can not have that. The GOP/TP would rather screw up the FAA, repeal environmental Laws, create the Uterus Police, close DMV's so people cannot get ID's to vote etc.
Northstar:
I don't know if anyone has mentioned to you the amount of lost revenue we are incurring because of the FAA nonsense. It's $200 MILLION per week.
http://consumerist.com/2011/07/potential-faa-shutdown-could-mean-tax-free-airfares-for-travelers.html
$1 B every 5 weeks. LOST. Never to be deposited in the treasury.
The GOP/TParty is a threat to this nation.
US Navy:
For reference, the people really aren't seeing what you're seeing. I live in Columbus, OH. Though we don't get credit for it, we're the largest city in the state and have the 2nd largest university campus (OSU) in the country. Having said that, the difference between my own liberal leaning views and my country cousins' views who live just 45 minutes outside of town are vastly different.
One of my aunts voted for McCain last election because her Baptist minister told her that McCain was God's choice. She's a professional fund raiser for non-profit organizations and has a 2nd degree in Eastern culture influenced dietary medicine. I mean, she's almost a bit New Age in many of her life views and her need to champion the causes of those in need has always come off as rather liberal to me. Yet she's a card carrying member of the TP. The only real knowledge that she has is blind faith in her party and she can only talk sound bite points. Despite her intelligence and broad world views, she's incapable of having an actual discussion about why she believes what she does and how her political views will be implimented in a way that they will be beneficial for the country.
That's just one example from my very large extended family. To be honest, I consider this to be the spirit of America. Unfortunately US Navy, people just aren't that smart when it comes to politics. I really don't expect most people to understand what's going on, regardless of what Obama may do to make addresses on television. These people have a pre-set decision and they will need sticks of dynamite to move them out of their current views.
There won't be a massive anti-TP / anti-RP wave coming from this country. People who want to support their party of God will always find a way to rationalize that this is the Democrats' fault. It's rather sad, but that's the country we live in.
The FAA is "limping along"?
That's funny, because no one seems to miss those 4000 people on furlough. Seems to argue the point that government could make MASSIVE cuts in personnel, and the country would never miss them.
By the way, some other poster mentioned that the airlines were "pocketing" the taxes they are collecting the but government is not entitled to collect. While it is true that the airlines are still collecting said taxes, they are holding them against the day the government reinstates all these workers and programs- at which time the government will demand the back taxes. It's a smart move, as that day will, surely, come.
I'm too cynical to believe that this could possibly be permanent- despite the fact that these temporary cuts have proved that the agency was just too
Wiser with Age:
I thank you for a very well written and thought out post. There is a lot we agree on. It is so true that a percentage of the people will not change no matter what the reality may be. May father was one of those you so accurately discuss.
He was GOP all the way and he did not care what their message was or was not. If they had a "R" after their name that is all he needed to know.
Thanks again for a great post. One of the best today and keep writing, you have a lot to say. You got my vote.
I bet those 4000 people would miss their pay checks. Bet you'd love them receiving unemployment checks instead.
I'll bet the economy misses the income of those 4000 people on furlough.
That's OK, the Republicans have this figured out. Once they get enough government workers booted out of their jobs the extra unemployment will collapse wages and the "job creators" will be eager to hire at fire sale prices.
The only suffering will be among the American middle class.
Joe:
You may think the airlines will repay the $200M they're collecting every week. You are naive.
To the Repugnacant non millionaire and billionaire- educate yourselves and quit supporting the mob that has never had your interests at heart. You will be living in a box, under the bridge, with the rest of us.
Wake up!
I don't think they heard you ed... may have to say it again.
wiser with age and navy, My father is a Korean War Vet, carpenter's union member and a card carrying democrat his whole life. If it said (D) he checked it until 2008. He listened to all the rhetoric and read the papers and changed. He voted for McCain because in his own words, he didn't believe what candidate Obama was saying. He just didn't trust him and still doesn't. It goes both ways.
Chances are it had more to do with the color of the candidates.
No doubt about that Sally
Richard, sounds like he didn't like the black dude to me either... you sure you know your family history?
Richard::: Your father voted for McCain because the guy that threw his first wife to the curb was a "hero", a Nam vet, a former POW. Big deal. Your father knew nothing about McCain's ideas-- any more than McCain himself did.
The republithugs took over the House of Representatives on the idea of JOBS. I have yet to see any jobs they have created. The only thing they created is unemployment-- then they don't approve of helping the unemployed out, they cut nutritional help to the very ones they have put on employment and from whom they have taken help.
This place rivals government for how many idiots it can cram into one area.
And wow what a liberal @!$%# thing to say about a person's father without knowing them.
Susie---You don't know a thing about my father or what he knows. I could say your upset because my father and Senator McCain both did service for our country and your father was a coward and it weighs on you, but that would be resorting to your childish behavior, so I won't. I don't know the reason you make such absurd statements but it is obvious that if my father or anyone else who disagrees with you, your only response is to try and denigrate them. Sounds like you could use some anger management classes.
Louisj and Sally There you go again, if someone says something about Obama in any way, shape or form, it must be racist. Well you are dead wrong, my father as well as the rest of our family are far from racist. He actually took alot of flack from union workers in the 60's for supporting the rights of people of color to work especially in the carpenter's union. I played Little League on an all black team with the exception of myself and one other. Even had the team over for a bbq with no issues. It seems that liberals are the ones who are more inclined to be racist, judging from the people on this vine.
Pablum
That's what the Reid plan is. The Boehner plan isn't much better, and that's why many Tea Partiers won't support it. Neither plan addresses entitlements and instead focuses their trillion dollars or so in cuts on discretionary programs. Both plans used the tired old approach of creating yet another committee to figure out how to tackle the tough entitlement problem. Oh, and Harry's plan even counts as savings a trillion dollars we weren't planning on spending anyway for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. All in all, not much to sink your teeth into from either side.
So if Tea Partiers don't support the Boehner plan and if the Reid plan is DOA in the House even if he can get it out of the Senate (which isn't a gimme), then missing the August 2 deadline to raise the debt ceiling seems more and more likely. The question then becomes, will economic calamity ensue? No one knows for sure, but that outcome isn't a gimme either. Consider this:
By virtue of its QE1 and QE2 policies of the last few years, the Fed owns about $1.6 trillion of Treasuries and other government bonds. If the debt ceiling is not raised, then the Treasury will not be able to issue more bonds to cover all the obligations of the government. But, the Fed COULD start unloading the government paper on its balance sheet and provide the proceeds of the sales to the Treasury. That would not be a violation of the debt ceiling since this is debt that had already been issued within the limits of that ceiling. The worldwide market for U.S. debt has been and continues to be robust, so with the Treasury pushed onto the sidelines the Fed could step in and provide the supply the world demands. Oh, and that would keep the government operating at full bore for over a year. So much for the "hard" Augus 2 date.
Here's another idea: "overdraft protection." Many folks have that in their own bank accounts, but the idea can be applied at the government level as well. When Grandma Jones deposits her Social Security check in her local bank, her bank then submits that check to the regional Fed bank for clearing. When the Fed gets that check and notices that the balance in the U.S. government account is zero, what does the Fed do? They could refuse payment on the check – or, they could say the U.S. government is a pretty good risk and go ahead and credit the bank submitting the check with the deposit, thereby giving the Treasury the same kind of overdraft protection enjoyed by millions of Americans. The legality of this approach is a bit murky since the debt ceiling law does not specifically address this strategy. But since overdrafts granted by the Fed aren't "debt" that is explicitly guaranteed by the government, some have argued it's a viable approach.
So the sky may be partly cloudy, but it's not falling – have you noticed that ALL the major players have stated the U.S. will not default? And when the Tea Partiers dig in their heels they are most assuredly NOT inevitably pushing the country and the world into some economic abyss. Because there's time beyond August 2 to get this right. So enough with the pablum, let's get it right -- and move beyond the crisis atmosphere created out of whole cloth by our superhero president.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/43879039
http://www.cnbc.com/id/43884683
http://www.cnbc.com/id/43899646
P.S. to Boehner's staff: you guys f*cked up bigtime. Used the wrong budget baseline, eh? Sloppy work, very sloppy work indeed.
Make sure to mix some peas in with your pablum Mr. Me First Bill - from the sound of you, you could use some more 'fiber' in your diet... ;o)
Well said Feisty......TPers haven't figured out yet that the American people are rather fond of their Social Security and Medicare....reference District 26 in upstate NY; a solidly Republican district. This is the future of the Republican TPers brand. They've come to Washington to destroy our form of government and end entitlement programs (which BTW Social Security is not an entitlement it's an insurance program). They just never got the message that Americans actually like and want these programs and don't want to see them cut let alone dismanteled. The TPers will witness the same fate as the "No Nothing" Party in the 1800's. History has a funny way of repeating itself especially when people don't learn the lessons of it.
Wow, the Reid plan is pablum. How odd a republican would make such a claim. The Reid plan is exactly what the republicans demanded in the first place. Spending cuts in the amount of the debt ceiling increase, no revenue increases. Talk about who is moving the goal posts: clue, it isn't democrats.
"Make sure to mix some peas in with your pablum"
I'll pass on the peas, thank you. But sign me up for a double load of broccoli.
Who created the crisis Bill? Maybe your Tea Bag pals with all of there "chicken little" BS about having to tie the debt to the deficit. They have been totally disingenuous with the American people from the very start.
Miss/Mr Feisty do you have any arguments for the points Bill from Fairfax makes or if you can't come up with a reasoned reply you go personal. That is probably why things don't get done. The debt ceiling is not why interest rates are going to go up. It is the deficit spending that will create that to happen.
Relax Dutch! Mr. Bill & I have a complicated 'relationship'...
And it's Miss Feisty! ;o)
So then your saying that Americans want to go broke spending trillions that we dont have? I think some of you people are not in touch with people in the heart of this country. Amoungst your selves you all agree and nod heads. However in the middle of the country I see and hear a lot of people who still dont like what they see being done. We are a long way from the election, just think....who were the candidates at this time in the last election. Most of the independents I know and chat with daily are not happy with this spitting and hair pulling, but they still do not like the spendaholic ways of Mr Reid and Ms Pelosi either! The worst Ive heard from a few of them is that they could live with Mr Obama as president as long as the congress is republican!
Which "Heart of the Country" is that, "jollyoldsoul"? Would that be the same "Heart of the Country" that receives more in government spending than it sends to Washington in taxes?
"Relax Dutch! Mr. Bill & I have a complicated 'relationship'..."
Good grief Feisty -- oops, Missy Feisty -- you've outed me again. Next thing you know, Obama and Boehner will be back on the Love Boat working up a grand bargain.
Not at all, jollyoldsoul. Anyone serious realizes the deficit needs to be brought under control. The President has been saying this since the initial stimulus plan was being debated. He repeated that in this week's call for a balanced approach.
Here's it is in simple terms--the only reason this crisis exists right now, with potential immediate and catastrophic impact upon the economy is because Conservatives will it to be so.
Too bad it's not for good! Or is it?
IF the house proposal doesn't have the votes, is this "The last best hope?"
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Senate Leaders Working Behind Scenes on Debt Compromise
"...There are “enough similarities” to make a compromise between the Reid and Boehner bills possible, said Senate Republican Policy Committee Chairman John Thune, R-S.D."
http://nationaljournal.com/congress/senate-leaders-working-behind-scenes-on-debt-compromise-20110726
Danger:
Hope has been replaced by fear. We're on a collision course based on a self imposed crisis. Time is running out, the system is broken, and solutions are non-existent.
Prepare for the worst....
Dangerfield..
The Reid proposal gives the Republican everything they want..$2.7 trillion in JUST cuts.
They will vote it down and Reid will blame them for the default saying I gave them exactly what they wanted.
Boehner has/will have a plan, OMB certified that the Democrats will never pass cause of the constitutional amendment clause. He will blame the Democrats and say that I gave them everything they wanted.
You get the feeling that both Reid and Boehner want the other side to vote their plans down so they can point fingers when we do default.
Besides...no way Boehner delivers the GOP caucus for a yea vote. There's 51 no votes in the TP caucus alone.
Are you trying to tell me that we have a wacky political system that requires some kind of consensus because you need to get OPPOSITION support in order to pass legislation!?!
dangerfield..
How can you infer that from what I said? LOL!
Say it ain't so, dangerfield.
It's even worse...
________________________________________________________________________________________
"Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls.
Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed."
Othello Act 3, scene 3, 155–161
President Dangerfield(!?!?!?)
Obama has turned into President Rodney Dangerfield: He doesn't get no respect. (For readers too young to remember Dangerfield, that's not litotes. He used the double negative as an intensifier.) "So we're left with a stalemate," he said last night. "At least that's what Michelle tells me."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903591104576470211147425964.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion
No respect...
Dangerfield ~
Don't forget who said those lines. Ironically, as I recall it, it was Iago, who, to further his own ambition, was in the process of robbing Othello of the only treasure that Othello ever really had. Love.
There's a robbery -- albeit of a different sort -- going on here, too.
It looks like FR is asking the same question about uncertainty.
MB probably missed my answer to you the other day, but after you deflected about HCR and I found about your union membership....
_________________________
Mixed Bag, why does the GOP harp so much on uncertainty about HCR and regulations on business and how it is bad for the economy; but some gop don't give a second thought to all the uncertainty that this fight is causing?
____________________________
Mixed Bag you are a union member! How socialistic of you! :}
Actually, I wasn't too happy about Obama calling my state plan a cadillac plan either. Perhaps you've seen me criticize HCR and its merits and short comings. Water under the bridge not the topic.
My question is; why do the GOP call uncertainty bad for the economy and yet seem relentless in causing uncertainty because they refuse to compromise on the debt ceiling?
#11.15 - Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:13 AM EDT
Here goes, Mark:
I was a union member for more than 18 years...I'm no longer a member.
lol...I was arguably the least socialistic member they ever had.
Sorry you feel that I deflected, but, it's my recollection that you raised the HCR issue. I merely responded. Glad you agree on the reprehensible excise tax, though.
I can think of little more cynical than trying to restrain the rate of increase in health care costs by slapping a 40% tax on providers offering superior coverage above a certain cost...how does that jibe with "You can keep your present health care if you like"?
Sure you can...
So much for negotiating for better coverage with your employer. The government steps in and, in effect, takes that coverage away by punishing your provider for offering it to you in the first place.
Perverse...
There...I'm done.
And;
I don't accept the premise of your question...I believe that debt ceiling will be raised, and that it won't be possible without compromise from both sides.
Talk to me if it doesn't get raised.
GOPTP Created Crisis. Republicans are good at creating false crises. They did it with the Government Shutdown this spring; they have done it with their every action from January 21, 2009 through today. Everything President Obama did and tried to do was turned into a spectacle, a long-drawn out battle by republicans with the sole purpose of obstructing, delaying and defeating President Obama--make him a one-term president. The price for this GOPTP tactic has been high and has been paid by the American people. It is the people they have hurt. With the Nation reeling from near total economic class, one expects that politics would be set aside in order to stabilize the economy, avoid additional unemployment and stimulate jobs creation through targeted Government spending. But the GOPTP could not care less--it is all about defeating President Obama. What a sad state of affairs for the Nation.
It is Wednesday, six days from default and the GOPTP continues to play games with America's future. They are willing to risk everything in the name of defeating President Barack Obama--that is all this exercise in futility has been about. Over 70 times previously, the debt ceiling was raised with a one sentence, one paragraph, one page debt limit increase bill.
The debt ceiling is money already spent. It is money that was agreed to be spent in previously passed yearly budgets. The GOPTP's demands are false choices. They have chosen to take America where it has never been previously--in default and in default for their own irresponsible fiscal policies. While there is debt blame for both sides, the largest share of it has resulted from the tax cut and spend "deficits don't matter", Pledge to King Nordquist policies of republicans.
The quickest way to reduce the deficit and the debt is to create jobs. The House GOPTP has not produced one piece of jobs legislation since taking office in January. Their only purpose is to keep the country in crisis and defeat President Obama in 2012. No matter on which side of the aisle one sits, is that what we send legislators to Congress to do?
Great post, Jody. The Republicans are fond of wrapping themselves up in the flag and calling themselves patriots, but their refusal to compromise on these critical issues is unconscionable.
Excellant post, Jody! They have been crying wolf ever since he took office.
Jody,
Excellent and 100% true.
Bravo Jody.
A very important point, Jody, and thanks for pointing it out. As we move toward that moment when the GOPTP inevitably votes to raise the debt ceiling there are three takeaways;
1) This "crisis" is entirely contrived by Conservatives. It isn't a recent plan, either;
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_08/025458.php
2) It's only the most recent and radical example of a pattern that originated with the inauguration of President Barack Obama, as you've documented.
3) As you mentioned, Americans are being hurt, yet Conservatives see that as merely collateral damage.
Jody
You nailed it, the GOP has sold the country out by following the marching orders of their real employers, Rove, Limbough and the Koch brothers. The Republicans are so spinless they will not admit they are the root of most of Americas troubles today. When the 2012 election arrives anyone voting for these anarchists should have their heads examined.
live with in your means ahol's! not what olobma wants! spend like a drunkin sailor. he won't give his plan,OH NO call r congressmen and tell them give me what I WANT !!! WHAT A LOSER!!
Well DUH! Of course he's boxed in. Remember, "Read my lips...."? They should have learned not to stake out publicly a NO tax ever pledge. Apparently they have a collective short memory.
And they've known this was coming for months. Where was Cut Bump and Boil (or whatever cutesy name they've got this time) 6 months ago? They are the House leadership, right? SO LEAD ALREADY!
(And where's all those jobs you talked about last year?)
Handcuffed by their own stupidity.
Agent Orange Boehner is boxed in? I guess maybe he isn't smarter than a 5th grader then. Send him back to Ohio with his twin brother from a different mother-John Kaisch or the other Ohio crybaby, George Voinivich.
Compromise on the Grand Bargain and allow 1 trillion in revenue enhancements, each side giving in for 200 billion.
Otherwise, get the laughing stock Boehner and his Tee Party terrorists out of the way, and enact McConnell - Reid.
Stop the Republican insanity.
And on today's edition of "What A Boner"...
Maybe they should pass a rule that says that oaths taken outside of their oath of office are impeachable. Maybe that will break the Norquist fueled group think intransigence.
Cheers to that rule, Falstaffsmind!
To the Repugnacant non millionaire and billionaire- educate yourselves and quit supporting the mob that has never had your interests at heart. You will be living in a box, under the bridge, with the rest of us. Wake up! That rant felt good! Vent or explode. Here's a link to all our so-called reps in Need-to-be Washedington. Rightys and Lefties, give em hell!
www.contactingthecongress.org
Donald Trump says we should default on the debt. We should always do the opposite of that blowhard.
He seems to think that by doing that it will mean President Obama won't be re-elected.
I think the Republicans are the ones who are going to smell like they stepped in it.
Then their noses are going to be rubbed in it.
Well, Tom, we all know that the Donald has a history of defaulting on debts---look where it has gotten him, the star of his own reality show.
Hi Steeler Fan--The thing is I meet middle-class folks who agree with him. They feel that raising the debt ceiling is akin to giving the President the green light to run up the debt more.
I guess that means the Republicans are winning the message war and the public will be on the losing side, again.
Too bad those folks weren't paying attention when President Bush and Congress raised the debt ceiling 7 times.
Good morning , everyone –
From the Heartland, putting some additional context around last week’s job numbers.
http://host.madison.com/ct/business/biz_beat/article_44c1d6e6-b478-11e0-ad32-001cc4c002e0.html?sourcetrack=moreArticle
That’s right. More jobs, but higher unemployment because more people entered the workforce. In other words, job growth didn’t keep up. Tsk, tsk, tsk. In addition to that, there’s this:
So, if you look closely, you will see that four out of the top five job growth states for June are actually states that went blue in 2008, and three out of the five have Democratic governors right now.
And we already know how Minnesota and Texas created their job current growth climates – by borrowing stimulus money to pay down their deficits, leaving the rest of us with the bill. But by the way, since Minnesota now has a Democratic governor, I suggest we give HIM the credit for the job growth because no conservative will want to give Pawlenty the blame for the crisis that just shut down Minnesota government for three weeks.
Seems only fair.
Moving on –
Turns out that Wisconsin and Texas -- or even the other states listed above -- weren’t the only job-creating states last month, after all --
Ah. The biggest job declines in traditionally red, right to work states. And I believe that Tennessee recently went through some of the same changes Wisconsin did. So where are the jobs, red state governors?
Well, anyway. What do we make of all of this? Absolutely nothing. What you have to look at are the long-term trends.
And again, even using this measure, it appears that there is a lot of job growth going on in blue states, including California. I bet Spanky would be surprised.
But you still have to put it all in perspective.
(emphasis added)
For twenty of the past 30 years, Wisconsin has had Republican governors. For much of the past two decades, Republicans have had control of the State Legislature. What does that tell you?
And I suspect that taking away ten percent of the average public worker’s gross pay is not going to improve those numbers. Especially when job growth here appears to be tending toward low-end jobs.
Sigh.
By the way, have you thanked Governor Walker today for your summer job at the water park?
Anna Molly:
Thanks for the update. WI is the State to watch.
August is only a few days away and I cannot wait to see what happens next in WI. It should be a good idea of what the GOP/TP can expect moving on.
Outstanding work Anna, outstanding.
40,00 jobs created since Walker became governor in January. !60,00 job lost while Doyle was in office. Thousand os public sector and teacher jobs saved due to walkers budget fixes. 3.6 billion dollar deficit turned into a 300 million dollar surplus. Nuff said Union thug
Not true about the jobs saved. 3,400 public sector jobs were lost last month alone.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_fb37247c-b3c8-11e0-9a8f-001cc4c03286.html
If jobs were lost during the Doyle administration, you just might look to Bush's recession to account for that. Jobs were lost EVERYWHERE, or haven't you heard?
Get over it. The only lies you hear are being whispered in your ear by your Republican corporatist overlords.
Now begone. You have no power here.
By the way, I am NOT a union "thug" or anything like it. I am a private sector attorney who pays her own health insurance and retirement costs out of the revenue she produces, as well as paying PLENTY in taxes. I just don't happen to be selfish.
Nuff said.
Navy ~ thank you, as always, for the kind words. I'm looking forward to August, myself.
You failed to mention Michigan, were we have passed the first budget in 8 years. And business's now trust this governor they are moving back.
Anna Molly,
You are a wordsmith indeed. Great post and good info on the state of affairs in Wisconsin. Looking forward to your take on the recall elections as they happen. Will the new Walkee legislation and subsequent closing of DMV offices have an effect on those recalls?
Probably not, Bryan, as the actual "ID" portion of the law does not take effect until next year. Till then, they are required to terrorize anyone who comes to the polls without ID by demanding to see one, but in the end, they have to let them vote.
How's that for user friendly?
Thank you for the kind words. Wisconsin will keep us -- or at least me -- amused for the indefinite future. As you may know, the first recall election -- which was against a Democrat -- went to the Democrat. One down, and 8 to go. Stay tuned.
Boehner needs to stand up to those tea partiers and tell them how the government works...compromise. Spending cuts need to be done carefully - not slash and burn. Too many people and the economy will get hurt. Harry Reid's plan is the best to address what needs to be addressed now. There's an election coming up....people can vote for what they want then - but this is an emergency and it needs to get done!
Jennifer,
I agree with you! And I have something to share with you and all Americans who have had enough of the ignorant tea party. My 20 year old daughter said it best last night in an email to me. She says "Daddy, I thought a tea party was when children get together and spend time with their imaginary friends!". LOL!!! I think I raised a smart girl. And I am looking forward to the tea party comments about how I didn't.
This Republican has had enough of the ignorance associated w/ the tea party. And as well has had enough of my party barging into people's lives (abortion, gay rights) based on some religious conviction. I am tired as well of my party professing to be the party of the working class and the average American.....so untue. I hate to admit it but any time someone in the middle class or someone in poverty votes for my Republican party, they are voting against their own self interest.
My party has backed itself into a corner.....when for 4 years (both in the campaign and since he has been in office) you berate Obama as anti-American, socialist, communist, terrorist and the anti-Christ there is no way now you can agree with him regarding his plan to raise revenues and reduce spending (when most of us educated and informed Republicans do) because it will negate all of your prior arguments.
One last thing relative to Obama being called anti-American by those on the right and basing it on lies (both Newt and Huckabee have spouted this) about his upbringing. The both say he was influenced by his Kenyan grandfather who fought colonialism and the British. Duh.....he never even met the man. If he was infuenced by anyone it would have been the grandfather that raised him. The grandfather that he credits a lot to. The grandfather that was a hero and who served under Patton im WWII. This man is more of an American than most of us and for you racists out here......do you hate his white half as well?
Enough said.....bring it on.....
 none of the plans cut spending enough, wtf?
What a boner..... hahahahahah! Repukes that's your man!!!!!
At least he has a plan...where is ObaMaos Plan?
Unviable, unworkable, unpassable; but hey - it's a PLAN!
When are the Republicans going to invest in a good old fashion calculator? We already know their math is FUZZY!
LiberalLies. I guess the President's $4 T in cuts and $800 billion in revenue increases is not a plan in the Tea-publican World of Unreality. BTW, your comment says more about you than it does about President Obama--it isn't good either.
Again, where is the Dem plan? They have one but not going to reveal it? Sounds vaguely familiar. Can you say Obamacare?
Jody,
The President now wants 1.2 T in revenue increases, but he still has not put anything in writing. So no writing, no plan.
It's in writing. Some people don't bother to read it.
Job1:
That is BS at it's best. The POTUS has NOT put anything in writing.
Do tell us all where we can read his proposal. Where is it written? Anybody can be an idea's person but if the idea isn't documented it is just TALK.
Do your homework. I read two in two days. Hint: Washington Post and the New York Times.
links please Job1. Would like to see what you are calling a written plan by the POTUS and his cronies.
Thanks in advance.
LOL Talk, can you manage to tie your own shoes without someone to assist you?
Just want to make sure I am reading the same "article" that Job1 is. Oh, and thanks for the insult. Considering the source I am not surprised.
Jody, Iowa
LiberalLies. I guess the President's $4 T in cuts and $800 billion in revenue increases is not a plan in the Tea-publican World of Unreality. BTW, your comment says more about you than it does about President Obama--it isn't good either.
Jody $4T in cuts sounds good and $800 billion in revenue also but let's see it in writing until then it is nothing but air. Deal could have been done if Obama's caucus hadn't demanded more in tax increases.
Hey I heard the defense secretary say that Libya (you know Obama's war) was at a stalemate, sounds like
everything Obama does is a stalemate. And as far as Libya goes the U.S. pays 75% of NATO's cost for this war the one that was only going to be a couple of weeks and Quaddafyi is still there, didn't he get the memo President Obama wants him to go away.
Man-boy cantor should be wrapped in VERY HEAVY non-rusting body armor, with a 500 pound DUMB-BELL securely attached to his big mouth, and then airlifted over the deepest Pacific ocean abyss, and allowed to fly like a LEAD Zeppelin.
It'd definitely help pave the way for a more practical approach for a balanced deal.
All boehner needs to become more reasonable, is a bottle of Jack Daniels, and a pack of Lucky Strikes.
GET IT DONE!
To funny!
Moon - may take three dumb-bells to weigh that much. How about Pelosi, Reid, and Wasserman-Schlutz?
So the Tan Man's plan is a bust, go figure, as my Daddy use to say these people could screw up a wet dream, and to the trolls still trying to say that Obama hasn't presented a plan, please turn the record over it's getting warped like your minds, he presented the tan man with a 4.1 Trillion dollar cut and 1.5 trillion dollar revenue plan, as well as a 2.5 trillion dollar cut program and what did the GOPERS say? "No Thanks". For the first time in our nations history the debt ceiling, which has nothing to do with the budget, it has to do with paying for what already was budgeted for, is being used as a ping pong ball by the baggers in order to try and crush Obama, on Feb. 11, 2011 John of Orange said "We will make our number one focus creating jobs", let's see, there are 50 bills sitting in Congress dealing with Jobs, not one has made it on the floor for a vote, why because they've voted on defunding planned parenthood, curing gays, and destroying the FAA, that's right folks, the Republicans defunded the FAA, while were all focused on the Debt ceiling the clowns defunded the FAA, they have ordered the closing of small airports in many states, primarily Democratic states, laid off over 4,000 workers, and stopped all construction of new runways or repair of runways that need fixing! WOW you GOPERS sure know how to create jobs!!!!
sfilutzie:
Very true. What president Obama is cutting is out there on the web if they want to go research it. It is not line by line item, neither is the GOP/TP - the Duck, Dodge and Dismantle Bill had NO Numbers. He does talk about cuts to Medicare, DOD, Discretionary Spending etc that totals over 3 Trillion.
sfilutzie. Nice post and very true. The tea-publicans proved they cannot govern; they probably need an escort to find their way home at night.
ANd you liberals sure know how to spend money........ You make Imelda Marcos look like lil orphan annie!
sfilutzie,
So true. These people are nothing more than Terrorist.
Not so jollyoldsoul, Imelda Marcos? What about your hero Bonehead and his unwanted engines? STFU!
Leave poor jolly alone, he has no defense so he has to throw out BS. It's what his kind do.
As I read many of the comments, I realize why our GREAT country is in trouble today. Instead of taking sides, we should be advocating for what is best for this country. I am constantly amazed that people cannot filter through the propaganda and focus on the real issues. This is not the first time, nor the first president that had to reside over a debt ceiling crisis. Congress has postured, now they need to come together and raise the debt ceiling and end this bickering. Congress used to be able to, regardless of ideology, compromise and get things accomplished.
Congress should be locked in and not let out until they reach as viable, plan that will raise the debt ceiling. Once Congress votes to raise the debt ceiling, then it will be time to concentrate on balancing the budget. Any budget bill should include a two tiered approach including substantive spending cuts as well as tax increases. Yes, we sent people to Congress to represent our will; however, we should send people to Congress who put America first even when it not popular. In the end, America's interests should be more important than getting elected the next term. It is time we (American Adults) grow up, put party affiliations, petty prejudices, and unfounded paranoia aside and demand our representatives, kill the hype do what is truly best for America.
If we are not careful and do not find and embrace the truth (even when we do not like it); one day we will look up to find ourselves a third world country and will not know how. How begins with misinformation, paranoia and outright lies. This is what we are witnessing today and many have ingested the garbage and are smacking their lips and rubbing their stomachs.
Very good and astute comments Carmarie! I remember Pres. Obama said it was not going to be easy and people might not like some of the things which had to be done to get our country back on track. ( Or evena a little closer to the track)
I just wish both sides and people in this country would really try to think of what is best for all of us!
There is so much paranoia right now in all the medias, it is a shame.
If Speaker Boehner doesn't get this deal done we will not only add to the cost of borrowing but this be the only aspect that will surely have a trickle-down effect on the entire economy. Jobs? You can bet they will disappear at an even faster rate. It will cost business more to borrow.
The worry I have is that the United States will become a mediocre nation; instead of the greatest nation in the world. We must stop the tyranny by the minority. Get a long-term deal done. Do it right.
When you lie down with pigs, you tend to smell eventually. What took Boehner so long to realize that serving his corporate sugar daddies comes with a sour taste in your mouth? The American people, to whom he so frequently refers, are not as dumb as he thinks, and they do not support his corporate welfare vision.
It is obvious that the republicans are shrinking. Let's make if official by mounting mass recalls of these neo-aristocratic wanna-be's. Send them packing before they do irreparable harm to our beloved country. They are clearly the enemies of WE, THE PEOPLE.