Gregory will never fill Tim Russert's shoes. Personally, I'm looking at Mark Murray's shoes. In a few years Mark can fill them.

BTW: I'm expecting a fight to the dealth. That's how the Tea Party plays. They are not interested in a deal.

Maybe they can get Contessa Brewer to host. She'd be perfrect. You know Contessa, the Ron Burgundy of NBC.

Contessa: "I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal."

Feisty, if the Tea Party contingent, still the tail wagging the flea-ridden Republican dog, has its way, it will be a duel to the death. OK, now that's enough of mixed metaphors in one sentence ...

But seriously, folks: The pattern for decades has been what Naomi Klein calls "Disaster Capitalism," and we're seeing it at work right now. The conservatives either create an atmosphere of catastrophe, as they are now, or exploit an event, as they did after 9/11, to ram through a political program that would otherwise be entirely unacceptable if an open, national debate were held without a setting of chaos to mask the attempt.

In the current setting, the "cut, cap and balance" proposal, or even the Ryan budget proposal, are examples. But what's more interesting is that the "Gang of 6" proposal is the stealth bomber for the tactic of "disaster capitalism." A great deal of some core elements of the right-wing Libertarian program are buried in that plan, as far as it goes.

Even so, as long as the tiny minority of Tea Party House members, and the small sliver of the American electorate they represent, are bound to refuse to compromise, none of the plans looks like they will gain traction before August 2. Heck, John Boehner is recessing the House for the weekend - that isn't precisely an encouraging sign.

Tim Russert, in his gentlemanly way, would certainly have had an Emmy Award moment grilling guests on a Sunday morning in this environment.

Why HELLO ANNA MOLLY.

You get a load of the jod creation numbers in Wisconsin? Leading the nation it is.

Well hey ho, way to go AM. You and your state must be so proud.

See what happens when you actually make the hard decisions?

This is going to really make Perry's life easier. Well, any conservative running for that matter.

Oh, and it might be somewhat helpful to the Republicans in the recall elections, no?

Spanky:

Why HELLO ANNA MOLLY.

You get a load of the jod creation numbers in Wisconsin? Leading the nation it is.

Annie is having a bad day Spanks. She's been getting schooled on what is fact, and what is fiction, with the fiction part being her opinion.

This employment thing in WI will just put her further over the edge. How dare Gov. Walker be correct on how to create jobs! How dare the Republican majority legislator be correct on their votes that defined how the state deals with unions! How dare the Wisconsin supreme court rule against the unions! How dare the Koch brothers do anything, anything at all.

Get ready for some spinning from the Lib crowd.

And congratulations Wisconsin! We knew you could do it, and you did. Standing up to the union thugs is hard work.

There must be some kind of moral victory for the Dems/Libs/Unions in Wisconsin. Or, maybe not.

In other news, the unemployment rate in Illinois, Wisconsin's neighbor, jumped to 9.2% from 8.9%. Illinois has a Democrat governor, and a Democrat majority state legislature. Source: http://www.suntimes.com/business/6631628-417/unemployment-rate-in-illinois-jumps-to-9.2-percent

Fight to the death?

Excellent. Can't wait for the swashbuckling. Always love good swordplay.

Or wordplay, as the case may be.

Why HELLO ANNA MOLLY.

You get a load of the jod creation numbers in Wisconsin? Leading the nation it is.

Got a link, Spanky, I'd like to look at that.

But by the way, the collective bargaining bill has only been in effect for two weeks, so I'd be hardpressed to see the direct connection from that.

This is a very resilient state, and I have no doubt people here are honest and don't hoard capital the way they do some places. I have heard a couple stories about local businesses that are willing to take some risks, but then again, this little bit of unreality where I live is not your normal place.

I would like to see the numbers and exactly where the jobs were created before I comment. And I know JoAnna would want it that way, so help me out, okay, Spanky?

I knew you would. There's a good boy. Thank you.

JoAnna:

Annie is having a bad day Spanks. She's been getting schooled on what is fact, and what is fiction, with the fiction part being her opinion.

Pay her no never mind, Spanky. She doesn't speak for me, and she's certainly not in a position to judge my day, which has been much better since I left her baseless accusations on the table at First Thoughts.

p.s. If you've got something that contradicts THIS, which is based on the numbers for May, I surely would love to see it.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/124013694.html

After the year got off to a solid start, Wisconsin last month abruptly registered the slowest pace of job creation so far in 2011 while the unemployment rate inched higher to 7.4% from 7.3% in April.

Private-sector employers added an estimated 900 jobs in May after a monthly average of 5,700 in the four preceding months, according to thelatest data from the state Department of Workforce Development. The last time private-sector job creation was lower was in December, when the state produced an estimated 300 new jobs.

How this record could possibly be leading the nation in job creation somehow escapes me, even if you add some additional numbers for June.

So produce what you've got, and I'll be glad to look at it.

First I just want to say "CHICK FIGHT!'

Ok, now AM you know me well enough to know I neither can, nor would in any event post links. Not my bag dear.

However I specifically recall the line "more than 1/2 of the net jobs added in the US in June came from Wisconsin."

This was of course followed by a quote from Walker taking all the credit.

So you can either use those impeccable research skills you have, or 2. wait for the National media to start trumpeting this joyous fact.

The MSM will be all over this, won't they? Damn I cannot wait for Big Ed Schultz's show. He will devote at least a full 1/2 hour to this, complete with graphs and all, right?

Kind fits with the story about Obamacares near immediate effect of killing job creation.

Man these Blue policies really do suck. :)

Ah. Here it is.

http://biggovernment.com/bhealy/2011/07/21/breaking-news-wisconsin-accounts-for-more-than-half-of-nations-net-new-jobs-in-june/

Average 9,500 jobs for June and 900 for May, and see what you get. Actually, the average of those two months together (5,200) would be 500 jobs per month BELOW the average of the four preceding months (5,700 jobs). Less than a thousand of those jobs from June were in manufacturing, by the way.

It's not a trend until it is one. But spin it anyway you want to, and I will, too. We'll see.

See - crack research skills.

Now off you go, back to your cat fight with JAS1.

Careful talking about trends. Me I love how the MSM always seems to find the terrible job and unemployment numbers "unexpected." Really, they been sucking for over a year now, but still unexpected?

Hey - way to go Wisconsin. Come on AM, say it with me: "Walker is the man!"

Come on, I know it hurts, but credit is owed.

Now how does this effect those nasty recalls? Should be fun, right?

OK that must have been a pig I just saw flying by my 14th story window.

First Feisty called Nojo an "old gal."

Now AM is citing Big Government, a website founded by that eeevvviill and vile Brietbart.

The end of days must be upon us. :)

A word to the wise, Spanky...

Don't get in the crossfire between AM and JAS1.

No one needs that kind of heartache.

Now AM is citing Big Government, a website founded by that eeevvviill and vile Brietbart.

The end of days must be upon us. :)

Not really. I just figured you couldn't grouse about my source as it has to be the farthest right spin possible, and even so it still doesn't show a trend because they didn't dare tell you what the May numbers were.

It's just one month, after all, and in fact, it's just one good month after a rather lousy month.

So, do try not to crow. And after Tuesday's first recall election, I should think you'd be a little more careful about trying to draw conclusions based on one month's job numbers.

Your side always likes to remind us about that very thing.

As for cat fighting, so sorry to disappoint you. All the fight is on JoAnna's side.

Always has been.

Frankly, I'm tuckered out. I've finally realized that there's no upside for me here. See you later, Spanky.

Bag Boy:

Don't get in the crossfire between AM and JAS1.

No one needs that kind of heartache.

So true. Certainly not me.

AM: Pay her no never mind, Spanky. She doesn't speak for me

Got that right. You're wrong nearly all the time.

Still waiting for that cheer from you for Gov. Scott Walker, cause you're all about the jobs, right AM?

Poor Illinois. Their unemployment rate went up from 8.9% to 9.2%. That's quite a jump. Illinois of course recently raised taxes (by a lot) on personal and corporate income. They continued to let their state unions run them over too. +0.3% rise in unemployment, in one month. I wonder were those jobs went?

Source: http://www.suntimes.com/business/6631628-417/unemployment-rate-in-illinois-jumps-to-9.2-percent

True that Mixed, true that.

But seriously AM {and where's Drive By? He too should be all over all 'dem jobs], it is a fantastic thing, all those jobs. Particularly with GDP in the toilet.

As for the recalls, I think it'll be a net status qou, but really other than poking at you, it's still Wisconsin - you know "fly over" territory.

JAS1 - according to Spanky's research, they musta gone to WI :)

Probably went to the Dells and the Hochunk Casino for the summer.

Wow good news from Wisconsin Spanky and JS, does this mean AM will be going to work and paying taxes

Feisty, Totally agree with you on Tim Russert and Sen Moynihan.

Thanks Lisa!

Where you been? Hope all is well with you & yours! ;o)

Feisty, Sometimes things get a little too nasty for middle of the road type like me. I have busy crabbing, fishing and boogie-boarding with my grandkids. It gives me great insight into what kind of a world I want to leave them with. Hope all is well with you. Hope to drop by the DDI tomorrow.

I totally understand lisa - we don't always see eye to eye BUT I respect you & your opinions...

Next time your travels bring you to the windy city - let me know, I would LOVE to take you & the hubby to lunch or dinner! ;o) You can take your pick...

We'll see you over @ the DDI tomorrow!

Fiesty, Thank you for the lovely invitation. Your always welcome here we could have real old fashioned clam bake.

Make it a shrimp bake and you got a deal GF! ;o)

I only like my clams baked... lol

Feisty, How about some shrimp scampi and lobster fra-diavolo over spaghetti

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_fb37247c-b3c8-11e0-9a8f-001cc4c03286.html

Wisconsin added 9,500 jobs last month, in part because of a renewed focus on drawing tourists to the state, Gov. Scott Walker said Thursday.

The state added 12,900 jobs in the private sector but lost 3,400 government jobs in June, according to seasonally adjusted numbers released by the state Department of Workforce Development.

The governor credited the state's numbers to "a rebirth of tourism" following broad efforts to publicize Wisconsin's state fairs, ethnic festivals and sporting events.

"Tourism is more than a $12 billion industry in the state of Wisconsin," he told reporters in Milwaukee. "This is about putting people to work."

He said he didn't have details on which specific industries gained jobs. However, the Department of Workforce Development confirmed that almost half the private-sector growth was in the leisure and hospitality industry. There were 6,200 jobs created in that sector last month, and 3,300 more jobs than in June of last year.

A reporter asked whether the new jobs were seasonal and would be gone in several months. Walker replied that some were summer jobs but that an unspecified number would carry over into subsequent months.

Carry over into subsequent MONTHS? Res ipsa loquitur.

And I thought all this stuff about collective bargaining and slashing pay and benefits for public workers was supposed to SAVE jobs. At least that's what Governor Walker told us. It was all about saving jobs.

So why did 3,400 public sector jobs disappear in June? Couldn't be those TEACHERS whose jobs Walker wanted to save, could it?

All about jobs, indeed. Summer jobs. Minimum wage jobs.

lisa - GF - you had me with the lobster! *OH YES YUMM* ;O)

I suspect THIS may show up in the July employment numbers for my fair state:

http://host.madison.com/ct/business/biz_beat/article_715b5592-b3a6-11e0-9d06-001cc4c03286.html

The new owners of M&I Bank didn't wait long to start getting rid of people.

Just two weeks after closing on a deal to purchase Wisconsin's largest bank, BMO Financial/Harris Bank announced Wednesday it was cutting 475 employees and closing more than a dozen branches.

The layoffs include 100 staffers in Milwaukee but few other details were released by BMO Harris.

The sale of M&I has been clouded by the golden parachute payouts to executives who played a role in driving the bank into financial ruin. The bank saw its share price plunge as problem real estate loans came home to roost over the past two years.

There was no word on how many layoffs would take place at the 12 branches and four drive-up locations in the Madison area. The bank had about 580 employees here as of December 2010.

But insiders say the moves are just the beginning as BMO begins review of M&I operations. The bank is expected to complete the merging of operations over the next 12 to 18 months.

About 50 employees in Milwaukee will be offered jobs with the company's vendors in security and human resources, BMO Harris spokesman Jim Kappel told the Business Journal of Greater Milwaukee Wednesday afternoon.

The layoffs announced Wednesday are to be completed over the next four months. BMO Harris also says it will outsource much of its corporate support functions.

About 400 of the layoffs are related to the acquisition. The remainder of the job cuts are related to closing 13 branches, including one in West Bend.

The branch closings had been planned even before the acquisition. But there are likely more branch closings coming since BMO Harris has other duplicate locations from its April 2010 acquisition of Amcore Financial.

Instead of lending money that might stimulate economic activity, this particular bank is buying another bank and laying off employees. You know ... one of those M&As that you tend to get when corporations are sitting on mounds of cash.

Enjoy the rosy Wisconsin job outlook, everyone. Maybe those bank employees can get jobs in concessions in Wisconsin Dells. According to Governor Walker, some of those jobs may even last MONTHS.

Gotta love those golden parachutes for the executives, though. They always land on their feet don't they?

..........

Meanwhile, the legislature delays passage of legislation to extend unemployment benefits by applying FEDERAL money.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_60d051de-b3a4-11e0-ac9c-001cc4c002e0.html

With recall elections looming, infighting among Republicans in the Legislature prevented jobless Wisconsinites from receiving an extension of about $88 million in federal money for the unemployed.

As the state Senate adjourned for the week Thursday without reaching a deal with the Assembly on a bill to extend the benefits, Democratic lawmakers accused Republicans of playing political games that put a lifeline for tens of thousands of long-unemployed people at risk.

“This is something that should have been done months ago,” said Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, D-Monona. “It is due to incredible incompetence or cold-hearted calculation that we are delaying passage of this bill when there are thousands of Wisconsin workers unemployed.”

The bill’s sponsor, a Republican, urged Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, R-Juneau, to schedule a vote on the measure. And Republican Gov. Scott Walker also called for action.

“My hope is we can find a way to work between the houses and get that passed as quickly as possible,” Walker said. “With or without the delay we have to have the extension.”

And there you go. Your noble Republican legislators who complained about their democratic counterparts not doing their jobs working overtime for the unemployed -- or not.

Anna Molly, thank you so much for putting the facts out about the state of affairs in WI. M&I also has branches in MN. I remember they origianlly were a WI bank with a different name. They expanded into MN a number of years ago and then eith wwas bought out or mergered. Now they are doing it again?

Saw a lot of attack ads here in on network tv in the Twin Cities before the primary election. I jsut swichted to cable only instead.

After 20 days wein MN are back open for business. Sorry your parks will not be filled with MN campers. Most can't wait to get to the North Shore and other great areas.

You're welcome, Northstar. I grew up in the Milwaukee area and remember M&I as Marshall & Ilsley. Yes, they merged with someone else, but I believe they were the survivor in that situation.

All in all, it reinforces what I said the other day about executives who wreck companies with poor decisions getting big severance packages, while the rank and file gets hurt.

The attack ads apparently didn't work this time. But you can expect that to ramp up again before the more important Republican recalls occur.

So sorry that we will not have the pleasure of hosting Minnesota residents. I wonder if that was factored into any of the hiring decisions here and how that will play out now.

Gotta love those golden parachutes for the executives, though. They always land on their feet don't they?

Anna Molly:

Funny how they pad their landing spot with the bodies of middle-class workers isn't it?

These parasites have no capacity for remorse. That gland in their neck that emits the hormone necessary for shame is not developed in them.

My father-in-law knew Ivan Boesky's brother. Lived in a wealthy Detroit suburb called St. Clair Shores. His own brother told my FIN that his own family wouldn't fall asleep in front of Ivan for fear he'd try to pull their gold teeth out with pliers. Man had no capacity for morality at all.

Thom Hartmann once opined that there are some executives that actually DO earn their high pay because their skill set is so rare. These people, he said, were sociopaths. For instance, they could poison an entire village in Bhopal, India, (for profit) and sleep fine that night. Thom argued that talent that rare was probably worth high compensation. They are contemptible people, and wastes of protoplasm, but fortunately, rare.

Jack Welch, the father of outsourcing, he said, was another one of these sociopaths.

LoL So they're either worthless or they're sociopaths. A tough calculus.

By the way, I heard the Chrysler/Fiat deal was finalized today. That must feel pretty good.

ron from Indiana,

Mark Murray filling the shoes? Are you certain of that, and do you believe he can be trusted to report instead of attempting to establish liberal policy?

While I have nothing against Mr. Murray, I don't believe he has the experience level to perform in that arena.

Oh holy hell - Fiesty is now referring to someone as "old gal."

I am touched Fiesty. Imitation is the sincerest form you know. :)

I just love seeing Feisty go all score board. Over what I have no idea, but gosh darn it is amusing.

Senator Coburn calling the Cut, Cap & Balance plan viable is like calling cow feces beef roast. Both might come from the hind end, however I think even Mr. Coburn can make the differentiation in taste.

As to the Balance part of the CCB plan: why would anyone want to give the House more control than they have now ? They are unable to pass meaningful legislation as it is. To require a 2/3 majority of the House to increase revenues is purely stupid. It's bad enough that a 2/3 majority is needed (by Senate rules) to pass any legislation. The rule has been kept in place to prevent the tyranny of a small majority. Senators of both parties have kept the rule (despite the change of party in control) because they know the pendulum swings.

To put such a rule into play in the the House would allow a tyranny by a minority. While the Tea Party would enjoy having such control, since they are a very small minority, rational people do not want to give them control. The fact that the Republican party has ceded control to a group which lacks intelligence speaks volumes about the Republican party.

Feisty,

Going for the jugular I see.

I am pretty sure you are in violation of the Code of Conduct, not that it would matter, just saying.

But seriously, you're crossing the line again and in desperate need of a time out.

If you have a need to attack, you should limited it to comments here, and leave any personal attacks out, especially regarding family. Not cool.

Yeah, let's look at the democrat's plan and see what it says, eh dirp101?

Now where can I get me a copy of that?

Oh and FYI - kinda looks like the Tea Party has control already, no?

It seems feisty red(wigged out) has been dipping into her mojitos a little earlier than usual today! lol!

(per Dick Morris) Here's what's going to happen:

1. The Senate leaders from both parties and President Obama will coalesce around the Gang of Six deal based on the recommendations of the Bowles-Simpson Deficit Reduction Commission.

2. After initially voicing reservations, House Speaker John Boehner and, perhaps, Majority Leader Eric Cantor will sign off on the deal in return for some unimportant modifications.

3. When the deal reaches the House floor, all hell will break loose and the rank and file Republicans will revolt en masse. Defying their leadership, they will reject the Gang of Six deal in caucus.

4. The House Democrats, who could provide the votes to pass the bill when their ranks are added to those Boehner-loyalists who back the proposal, will refuse to go along unless there are equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats voting for the Gang of Six proposal. Not wanting the albatross of passing the gang's proposal as a Democratic plan, they will withhold the votes on the House floor for its passage. Boehner won't bring it up for a vote.

5. The deadlock in the House will push the government beyond the August 2nd deadline and Obama will be forced to admit that it was a phony date all along. He will suddenly "discover" enough coming in via tax collections to pay for the debt service but other functions of government will have to be trimmed back or halted after the debt limit fails to pass.

6. Then a stalemate will ensue in which the House Republicans will call Obama's bluff and stand firm against caving in to more tax increases.

7. And then???? Who knows who will win that standoff. The debt limit will go up. Really conservative Republicans will still be outraged. So will really liberal Democrats. But the majority of both parties will vote to pass it. And everyone will debate who the winner was politically.

....and unless she loosens her wig, feisty will call it a progressive win no matter what happens!

Going for the jugular I see

Get off your high horse sweetie - your nose is bleeding! lol

In case you missed it your hero the zero had her own meltdown last night! lol

So save your selective POUTRAGE for someone who might be inclined to believe you darling! ;o)

no joe, no bo, nj

Amy, I used to think you were simply immature.

No. I'll be honest- I used to think you were a twit.

Now I know better. You are the coldest, most inhumane creature ever to draw breath. Moreover, your " moral code" centered as it is around one flawed politician, is so seriously skewed you would not know right from wrong if you had a map, interpreters, and a guide.

You are the most morally inferior human being I have ever had the misfortune to come across. And you are indicative of the rest of your cult.

Now go whine to the other members of your treehouse about how "mean" I was to you- but, p.s.-

Remember that kid in the schoolyard the "cool kids" convinced to eat bugs? Well, remember that, Amy, the next time they convince you that you are an "intellectual".

You can't even remember that Debbie Wasserman Schultz's name is "Debbie". You claim to ADORE her- yet, you continually call her "Wendy".

And don't blame the iPad- mine does not do that.

Is this a diatribe? It sure as heck is- I reserve them for bigots, and the kind of people who make fun of others' disabilities. That you are incapable of decent shame over your disgraceful comment tells me all I need to know about the cult of the Obamaphiles.

Now go whine to your Klubhouse "friends". Maybe Jody will lend you her paperback copy of Obama's greatest speeches.

#4.17 - Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:32 PM CDT

The NJ nut jobs hands aren't quite as clean as she claims now are they... ;o)

Now spin away sweetheart - spin away!

Dick Morris? DICK MORRIS???

Sheeee......

So NOJO went after AMY. I was part of that thread, and although a little harsh, Amy deserved every bit of it.

Plus Amy is a big girl.

So exactly how does that, or anything else anyone else does justify what you have done Feisty?

I guess poor Feisty never did progress out of second grade. It really is sad.

Afternon, Spanks. Slow day at the office? Time for some qualitly time dishing with the 'gals'?

Hey- anyone remember that scene from Music Man...."pick-a-little-talk-a-little-pick-a-little-talk-a-little...cheep cheep cheep cheeep...."?

Wow- this is really neat-o-riffic stuff. Glad I checked in.

I'm hangin' with you too, Drive By, so don't be so hard on yourself. And If I was you I would not be calling Mixed or Ira a girl.

They might get offended.

Say Drive By, how about Wisconsin's job numbers?

Never did see Music Man though, but thanks for asking.

Also Comic Con is here and the gaslamp is a flat out freak show, so I am soon headed for a people watching Happy Hour. Thursday and all. :)

"So NOJO went after AMY. I was part of that thread, and although a little harsh, Amy deserved every bit of it.

Plus Amy is a big girl.

So exactly how does that, or anything else anyone else does justify what you have done Feisty?"

Anyone else see 'Ira' or 'mixed' in the above? A Misdirect? Possibly. Not sure. Not sure where Wisconsin job numbers fit into it, either, though.....

Spanky: as to TP control, ain't that the truth. Kind of the fleas biting the tail wagging the dog.

to Bill Thomas: intersting analysis... if you prove true, can I get use of your crystal ball ?

Although, as to your last line, that's a gimme. I'd be just as sure that No Jo, No bo will call it a conservative win.

Neither above, nor below, eh Drive By? Wink, wink, nod, nod.

I got it - you are keeping it simple. Good for you Drive, you have got to recognize your limitations.

Spanky, you asked for a Democratic Plan in your post.......? Many in the population would like to see from the Progressives, something other than the BLAH, BLAH, BLAH talking points I see from the leftists

hey no joe no bo i`ll take that bet because whats going to happen is their going to go to the wire and Obama`s going to raise it anyway and let the courts take it from there and he`s the hero and the repubs are for what they are puppets of the rich and they lose it all in 2012

Ira,

Doesn't sound to me like Boehner has the pull to make anything happen other than what the TP demands. Some leader he is. And with Cantor waiting in the wings to swoop in and claim his job, he must feel like a bottle of sctoch at this point.

Bryan..

That's my fear also. Beohner may be Speaker but I also suspect Cantor, as majority leader, is leading the real power there. If Boehner can't get him...just on a daily basis....to keep his comments to himself knowing how damaging it is to the GOP brand, then how is he going to get the votes he needs to pass any plan other than a TP plan.

Stalemate.

Ira

it's very obvious that no deal will go through the congress except if all decides to go their way which is impossible. my bet, Obama will have to do this alone he can't afford to see the nation default, sign the debt limit and numerous court actions will follow. Governance according to TP is standing your grounds and making sure it's their uncompromising ideological way or no other way.

my bet, Obama will have to do this alone he can't afford to see the nation default,

I agree Pius - double or nothing baby!

If you think they're howling now - just WAIT... ;o)

Pius Emeka Nebo..

I think the last thing this country needs right now is a Constitutional crisis surrounding the 14th Amendment. That's almost as bad as a default.

Stupid question to all:

If the top rate under the extended Bush Tax cuts for the wealthiest individuals in this country is 35% and under the Gang od Six plan it falls to somewhere between 23 to 26%, why would Norquist oppose it. It's a 9 to 12% drop in the rate.

I don't get it.

Ira

which is better, the nation defaults or a nation in constitutional crisis? I bet you, many will support Obama if he decides to go this alone. GOP head will roll. The reasonable ones among them know this.

this is not a topic which should spend the whole tackling while many are jobless. GOP have no single clue of how to create job hence, they want a fight over debt limit. They must be out of their @!$%#ing minds.

I have some real issues with the President attempting to issue new debt without the limit raise:

1. Is it Constitutional ? I am aware of the 14th amendment, but it also requires Congressional action.

2. Would you, or anyone, buy debt that may prove to be invalid ?

3. Do you want to buy into the litigation ?

4. Do you discount the debt for the litigation cost, i.e. raise the interest rate ?

5. What happens to the credit rating, which is the impartial evaluation of the ability of the United States to pay its debts, if there is no agreement ?

6. If debt is issued by the President without the Congress increasing the limit and post-litigation, it is ruled invalid, is that an impeachable offense ?

7. (lucky number 7) Is that the whole point of this whole debt-limit increase theatre, to get President Obama to do an act which is blatantly unconstitutional in order to impeach him ?

I know this is a far-fetched conspiracy theory. However, in a world where the Republican party's number one goal is make President Obama a one term president, nothing would surprise me. I still think that they are very upset that they could not remove President Clinton for having sex with an intern in the Oval office.

Ira, have you been watching Modern Family? I heard that joke on there last night. Ha ha.

Amy..

Yep sorry...have to admit that I stole it from there.

lol, Ira-

All this hand-wringing over Boehner, Cantor, and the Tea Party House Republicans.

Not one word about former-Madame Speaker or the Democratic House Progressive Caucus, or the Congressional Black Caucus, et al.

Have you forgotten about the 190 or so House Democrats who will be asked to vote for the sweeping spending cuts required by anything resembling Bowles-Simpson, let alone revenue provisions based not on tax increases, but on the complete overhaul and reform of the existing tax code?

I can't wait until we start hearing from them, Ira.

Trust me...if the President and Speaker Boehner pull off that sort of deal, we're going to hear plenty.

Hey Pius I wonder how many republican congress critters have actually created jobs and/or run small businesses vs. the number of similarly situated democrats?

I have no idea. What do yhou think?

For instance Bush and Cheney ran businesses, yet Neither Obama or Biden have even earned a private paycheck. Let's take Boehner, Cantor and the #3 republican in the House and line then up with Pelosi, Hoyer and the #3 dem.

You think it's cause us small business types know that government can't create anything and all we want them to do is stay out of the way?

How about you Pius, you get sick of all the bureaucracy and mind numbing admin that takes time away from actual business [and time here ar FR]?

Pius Emeka Nebo..

It's not a question of who will support Obama, it's a question whether the SCOTUS supports his interpretation.

If not, what happens?

It's not Peoples Choice here, it's Constitutional Law!

On the Reid "untoward" thread I wrote a piece about The National Emergency Powers Act.

I'm quite sure the President has some powers under that that he can use.

If you care to, give it a quick read.

The real reason they the Republicans-Tea Baggers want President Obama out of office is due to him not being a member of the good old white boys club.

SPANKY

This whole show is unnecessary and boring to hell. No president should be made to go through this when you've got joblessness as high as it is.

leaders are called to do the very difficult. leaders don't sign their lives out before taking office or while in office to a special interest. now is the time to move this nation forward. look, many are losing sleeps because they've got no job and they have responsibilities and Washington can't seems to get their @!$%#ing house in order. it's absurd. you don't impose your believe on anyone.

Mixed Bag

...and good afternoon to you.

Hadn't given much consideration to the Democratic reaction. I just assumed...I know don't say it...that they would fall in line behind the President. If Obama can't get their support then just give it up. No one will have control of either party.

Hey.. I asked a question above...will repeat it here to you cause I don't understand why there would be opposition:

If the top rate under the extended Bush Tax cuts for the wealthiest individuals in this country is 35% and under the Gang of Six plan it falls to somewhere between 23 to 26%, why would Norquist oppose it. It's a 9 to 12% drop in the rate.

I'm really lost on the logic here.

Ira-

Please Google Senator Tom Coburn's letter to Grover Norquist on the subject of ethanol subsidies.

Senator Coburn said everything about Grover Norquist that I would have said, plus more.

It's a hoot. You'll love it.

If Norquist opposes a Bowles-Simpson type deal, he's just wrong...wouldn't be the first time.

Mixed Bag..

I know Sen. Coburn really doesn't care what Norquist thinks.

It's just the upside down logic I don't understand.

Going from 35 to 23% is actually a 34% drop in the tax rate.

Why would any GOPer be against that?

Need my Ginko to understand I guess.

Logic? From these guys?

MB: saw that letter, short version: "Grover Norquist, STFU. Sincerely, Senator Tom Coburn." Now if every Republican Congressmen would grow a pair and do the same, maybe they could start to govern.

Mixed Bag

Tom Coburn is one, how about the rest? Because i know a majority of GOP legislators sides with Norquist.

I don't know Ira - I'd like to see the details, specific code provision changes before I decide about the rates.

Need I remind you of the AMT my friend? Cause see, your marginal tax rate is directly effect when that MOFO kicks in, and it's a bitch.

No how about we demand the specifics of the "plan" before we jump off any cliffs.

Pius-

I'd advise you to start worrying about Nancy and the House Progressive Caucus and CBC...as I said, if President Obama and Speaker Boehner come up with a deal along the lines of the "Gang Of Six" proposal or Bowles-Simpson, House Dems will be howling like scalded dogs.

You can put Nancy, the CBC, and the Progressive Caucus in a room with the GOP Tea Party House members and let 'em go at it, Pius.

Maybe the rest will decide to pass some spending cuts and tax reform.

We'll see.

AMT is gone if we get either the "Gang Of Six" proposal OR Simpson-Bowles, Spanky.

We're starting all over as far as the tax code is concerned.

Spanky,

The AMT is gone as proposed by the 6 Plan and the top marginal rate is somewhere between 23 and 26%..TBD.

Even at 26% with no AMT that's a nice cut.

How about a leap of faith off that cliff?

I raised the AMT as an example of tax rates in general.

Until we see the revisions we have no idea. For instance if they remove all exemptions and deductions and tax gross income, then a rate of 20% would be a huge increase.

And do either of you really think we ever think we will start over?

No frigging way. That is not the way it works. The code only ever gets bigger and more complex.

Asent the specifics "marginal rate" is absolutely meaningless.

In fact it is intentionally misleading.

Spanky..

No way we start over as MB suggested...unless we go to a flat tax.

See your point but have to say that what you propsed would be extreme, really extreme. Guessing individuals don't gain much except a lower rate in terms of revisions. From what I saw, all the benefits are reaped by the corporations....including a rate somewhere in the low 20's.

Missing your point...top rate at 26% for individuals with the major individual deductions in tact....mortgage interest, child care, etc...is not a major change. What am I missing.

Not missing anything, but as you note - a lot of ifs.

It was just a few weeks ago some big brained genius was talking about eliminating the mortgage interest deduction.

Plus there all the crap about inventory accounting - gettting rid of FIFO. Could you just imagine the impact of that alone on businesses?

Spanky..

Next year's taxes are gonna be a mess no matter what.

You're right...when the dust settles and we actually do find out what's new and old and gone, we'll really know.

Oh..it's LIFO they want to change. Don't know to what...maybe an average cost method...who knows?

Fer sure...billables go up next year.

No one is gonna understand this crap.

You are right - LIFO. And that it will be ugly - which is great news for you and my tax attorney.

Crap.

All the CPA's on K street just put down payments on the new boats. The next year is gonna be a bonanza year.

That is unless all the predictions of chaos happen.

The next month will be interesting. I just hope we will not experience the downside of that blessing/curse.

Spanky, Ira, MB and Dirp that discussion was a whole lot to think about. Engineer by trade and education, not much financial background except 1st mortgage and equity line of credit or 2nd mortgage and my 401K which I continue to screw up by waiting to long to move investments. Having said all this I think i will move my investments to safe place and batten down the hatches for the short term. If they do take away mortgage deductions the 35G the wife and I pay in federal will probably be 50 to 60G. I guess I need to call the CPA I use. The engineers I work with don't comprehend the severity or implications of this on-going debt fiasco. Thanks for the wakeup.

Bob Jones-3591206..

Will bet you a nickle that the mortgage deduction will not be eliminated this year or for a very long time to come.

You take that deduction away, and then there is absolutely no reason to buy a house in this already decimated housing market. For most folks it's the largest single deduction they have and their home their most valuable asset.

No panic yet.

Norquist worked for Reagan. If Reagan said to Grover, "We're raising taxes," would Grover allow it?

GBM, no, I don't think there is a republican willing to stand up to Nordquist. Sad state we're in--we've got republican legislators whose only allegiance is to a Pledge to the rich rather than to do what is right for the country.

DaNoid, Reagan raised taxes 11 times which probably made old Grover really angry. If memory serves me, it was Grover and Reagan who talked Bush 41 into the "read my lips, no new taxes" line--Bush had been opposed to using it.

GM, Mr. Norquist runs a couple of lobbying and PR firms that collect millions of dollars from corporations and the super rich who want to block legislation that means that they will have to actually provide a living wage, safe workplaces, andsafe products or pay their fair share of taxes. Through his organizations, he has mobilized right wing extremists, and has run ads full of lies and innuendo (subsequently proven to be false) against those who disagree with him or refuse to play by his rules. This has actually resulted in one or two Republicans losing their seats to more radical elements in their party, and it is this that scares those who dare to oppose him.

Thomas Frank's book, "The Wrecking Crew", details this fairly well. For a good read as to how the super rich are using the tax system to make the middle class and poor subsidize them, read David Cay Johnston's "Perfectly Legal".

Yeah all the libies out here still hate Jarvis and he's long dead.

You all will eventually get it - the whole "but they did it too" argument is never a winner. They all did do it. It sucked then and now it is much worse and compounded.

Debt service and insolvency is a tough nut. Read that article in the NYT about the small town in RI that is asking all its pensioners to take a cuts.

Hard choices. Just a fact.

Oh for the days of Moynihan and O'Neil. Good times, Good times...

devie. I'll add Bob Dole for balance. Yes, it was; during those times, Congress functioned and solved problems. Kennedy was the last of the lions who fought for what they thought was right but knew when to compromise for the common good.

What happened to the GOP? There used to be some sound thinkers in that party. Now it seems that the stinkers have taken over. Will reason prevail?

Yeah, cause only someone with sound mind would not only continue to borrow $.42 of every dollar spent, they be looking to increase the percentage borrowed.

Right devie, that sound good to you, cause to me it sounds mighty stinky. Damn near un-reasonable.

Would be funny if President Obama was claiming to be Ronald Reagan. It is not him, but many pundits (on both sides) who have drawn the comparisons. They are also comparing President Obama to Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Grover Cleveland, and FDR. There is no comparison to Nixon or either Bush (less said about them the better.)

Sad to say but Repugnacants are the only ones that vote and are doing their best to see it stays that way.

Obama would have been cast out of the Primary early in 1979 as an inexpierenced bafoon with questionable ties to racist clergy and a terrorist crimminal. I'm not sure what changed in the 30 years that got him elected....

UAW,

Oh, you poor dumb child. I think we know who the real racist and terrorist are. Do you guys still wear the white hoods?

Hey Job1. Stop repeating what you heard Chris "Tingle Leg" Matthews say on whatever his dumb show is called that nobody watches but you. The Barack Obama of 2012 would never be nominated by the liberal party of 2008 and everyone here knows it.

By the way. You had an earlier post today where you used the raical slur "white boy." I realize that politically correct racial slurs are fine on this site and with liberals in general but I hope to hell you are white and not on here throwing your filthy hatred at 75% of the US population because you are one of those "hate whitey" types.

I was aware of it. many business fail. So what.

And you bet many lawyer do create "lots of jobs." Who the hell you think employs most of the lawyers?

Some of them big firms, like Ira and AM work at employ thousands of people all over the world, as do accountants and doctors. In fact Ms. Spanky's firm, in which she is an owner and employer employes hundreds of people.

So Torpedo, do you actually have a point, or just wasting time? Cause no business could ever operate a such HUGE negative balances. Of course most governments can't either, you know Torpedo, like Greece, Spain, California, Ill, NY...

Again, the point you were going for was?

The debt ceiling is based on appropriations that have already been made. What about that don't you understand? We will not be able to spend money that has already been appropriated by congress. It has no effect on money not yet appropriated. Gosh you people are thick.

Bryan: so, for those who don't know, the only way for the US to not fail to pay its bills would be for Congress to "unappropriate" the money, or raise the debt limit, right ?

The hard part of this is, most of the Tea Party really don't understand the world, how government works and its relationship with the financial industry, business, and personal lives. *sarc.* Good thing they have, effectively, taken control of the House.

UAW,

Don't worry, we Progressives will vote in record numbers in 2012 and get rid of those racist Republican-Tea Baggers.

Hey! Great Job1! You actually made a post where you didn't drag out that tired, lately fashionable liberal cliche' that "Reagan would be kicked out of today's Republican Party for being too liberal." If I didn't think you were a teenager I would tell you to knock it off because you and others who say that are the same people who called Reagan a nazi back then and all that other crap that you say about today's Republicans. I remember. I was there. Liberals of the same ilk that troll this board HATED Reagan and called him every name in the book back then.

Besides. The Barack Obama of 2012 would never even get nominated to run if this was 2008. All hardcore leftwingers are angry at him for Gitmo, taxes, Patriot Act etc...the rest of them are gritting their teeth and biting their tongues. Then there's the small, fringe element of Obama fanatics on First Read who just love Obama. Period. His flip-flopping doesn't matter to them.

tea-party-fan: are you calling the great saint of the Republican party, President Ronald W. Reagan a socialist ? That has to be a first. Now if I see that group of Herefords landing at O'hare airport, we know everything has changed.

dirt...

Nope, not calling Prez Reagan a socialist - just that he was silly for ever trusting a bunch of socialist to keep their word...

I sure hope that will not happen again..

Just Saying...