E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSBreaking down the three different tracks to a resolution on the debt ceiling… The grand bargain’s back… But can ANYTHING get through the House?... Is this the solution -- let the Bush tax cuts expire? (Grover Norquist says that won’t violate his tax pledge)… It takes 217 to make a thing go right: Magic number for passage in the House is 217, not 218… Bachmann’s rapid response on the migraines story… But Pawlenty goes there (and later walks it back, kind of)… Could Romney’s strength be a weakness?... And another national poll shows Romney in first, Bachmann in second.
*** The three different tracks: With the clock ticking until the Aug. 2 deadline, there are essentially three tracks to resolve the debt-ceiling standoff. One track is McConnell-Reid, the ongoing negotiations between the Senate Majority Leader and Senate Minority Leader to pass a “failsafe” debt ceiling increase without majorities of Congress having to approve it, and it's losing a lot of steam (right now). The second track is the talks between President Obama and House Republicans John Boehner and Eric Cantor, as they try to revive a “grand bargain” -- and it's a track that is a LOT more active than folks realize. And the third track is a second grand-bargain-style deal -- this one by the Gang of Six in the Senate. “Right now, there are multiple trains heading towards the station, and we have to decide,” White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said yesterday. “And some of them may continue up to the last moment, because we need to be sure that that failsafe option is there even as we pursue, aggressively, the possibility of doing something bigger.”
*** The grand bargain’s back: Earlier this week, we wrote that the grand bargain appeared to be dead. But right now, it seems to be gaining more and more momentum. The Washington Post: “By Wednesday evening, as House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) huddled with Obama at the White House, aides in both parties said a grand bargain to slice $4 trillion out of the federal budget over the next decade was back on the table.” The New York Times adds, “Politically, the main question remained whether House Republicans would be willing to negotiate over any package that could be construed as raising taxes, and throughout the day there were signs of internal debate among party leaders.”
*** House Republicans sour on McConnell-Reid: So what happened to McConnell-Reid? Here’s one explanation we’ve heard: House Republicans have soured on McConnell’s legislative maneuver, which essentially cedes Congress’ authority on the debt and passes it to Obama. It really poisoned the well in the trust between House Republicans and Senate Republicans for now. If there’s one piece of good news out there, it’s that McConnell’s plan so upset Tea Party House members that they’re more open to a grand bargain than they’ve been before. That explains why Boehner and Cantor are together now meeting with the president, but without any other House or Senate leaders.
*** Can anything get through the House? But all of this emphasizes one VERY important point right now: There is currently no plan out there that could get through the House. And that’s raised chatter on Capitol Hill that the only way to convince enough House Republicans to support ANY track is for the Dow Jones to collapse, a la what happened with TARP in 2008. Of course, that possibility makes this Onion headline seem appropriate: “Congress Continues Debate Over Whether Or Not Nation Should Be Economically Ruined.” And yet, the lack of trust in what Wall Street says and what government says is what drove many of these Republicans to run for Congress in the first place. So that may explain why they are skeptical of all these dire warnings. The leaders of both parties are desperate to avoid this, but it may not be possible.
*** Is this the solution -- let the Bush tax cuts expire? Don’t miss this news, via the Washington Post editorial page: “With a handful of exceptions, every Republican member of Congress has signed a pledge against increasing taxes. Would allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire as scheduled in 2012 violate this vow? We posed this question to Grover Norquist, its author and enforcer, and his answer was both surprising and encouraging: No.” Wow.
*** It takes 217 to make a thing go right; it takes 217 to make it out of sight: With two vacancies right now, the magic number to pass legislation in the House is 217, not 218.
*** Bachmann’s rapid response: Turning to the 2012 race, Team Bachmann has handled the candidate’s migraine story about as well as they could. Yesterday, they released a letter from the doctor in the House of Representatives, who said that Bachmann’s migraines are under control and infrequent. “When you do have a migraine, you are able to control it well with as-needed sumatriptan and odansetron,” the doctor said. “It has not been necessary for you to take daily medications to manage this condition.” But there are two points to make here. One, Bachmann has no margin of error regarding any other story on her health; any moment on the campaign trail that appears to be health related will reignite this story in a second. Two, there are former Bachmann staffers out there -- the ones who anonymously leaked this story -- to hurt her candidacy. In fact, THAT's probably the campaign’s bigger concern right now…
*** Pawlenty goes there… : And a concern for rival GOP campaigns is that they don’t seem like they’re taking advantage of Bachmann’s health care. But Tim Pawlenty went there yesterday, saying in Iowa, per NBC’s Morgan Parmet: “I don't know enough about the facts of her particular case, and I would defer to the medical professionals and their judgment and knowledge about her particular condition. But as a general statement, all of the candidates are going to have to demonstrate they can do all of the job as president all of the time.” That, folks, was a subtle dig at Bachmann’s migraines.
*** … But he walks it back (kind of): Yet in an interview last night on FOX, Pawlenty walked back that statement, kind of. “It’s mostly a sideshow,” he said. “I have never seen her have a medical condition or impairment that would seem to be a concern. What I said today, generically, applying to all candidates -- not her – is that anybody who is going to serve as president of the United States has to be able to do all of the job… That’s just common sense; it’s not a debatable proposition.” Contrast that with what Romney said yesterday (in which he suggested that it’s already a two-person race for the GOP nomination): "There's no question in my mind that Michele Bachmann's health is in no way an impediment to her being able to serve as president. She and I have differing views, I'm sure, on some issues. We'll campaign in various states and express our views, but her health should not be an issue in the campaign. I have no question about that in my mind."
*** Could Romney’s strength be a weakness? As we discovered in 2004, someone’s political strength -- John Kerry’s military service -- could be turned into a weakness in a presidential election. And as Bloomberg News reported yesterday, you don’t need a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth organization to uncover how Mitt Romney’s business experience could be turned into a weakness in this economy. “What Romney skips [on the campaign trail] is his experience in eliminating jobs. It's a facet of his career that presents a particular challenge for the Republican primary frontrunner: Tough business decisions don't necessarily translate into good politics.” More: “Employees who lost jobs at Bain-controlled companies more than a decade ago say they still hold Romney responsible. ‘I would not vote for him for anything,’ said Phyllis Detro, 68, who lost her job at a Bain-owned office paper products factory in Marion, Ind., closed in 1995. ‘I'd like to see the jobs that he's created. He has taken away jobs.’”
*** Another national poll show Romney in first, Bachmann in second: By the way, the Washington Post-ABC poll results on the GOP horserace are nearly identical to the numbers from our NBC/WSJ poll: “Romney tops the field at 30 percent to Bachmann’s 16 percent, with Paul at 11 percent. Perry is at 8 percent.”
*** On the 2012 trail: Pawlenty continues his RV tour through Iowa, stopping in Ames, Webster City, Fort Dodge, and Perry… Cain is in New Hampshire…
*** Thursday’s “Daily Rundown” lineup: Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE) and Rep. Charlie Dent (R-PA) on the debt talks… The Washington Post’s Nia-Malika Henderson, The Grio’s Jeff Johnson and USA TODAY’s Jackie Kucinich on the latest 2012 news.
Countdown to Wisconsin recall general for GOP senators: 19 days
Countdown to Iowa GOP straw poll: 23 days
Countdown to Wisconsin recall general for Dem senators: 26 days
Countdown to NV-2 and NY-9 special elections: 54 days
Countdown to Election Day 2011: 110 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 200 days
* Note: When the IA caucuses take place depends on whether other states move up
Click here to sign up for First Read emails.
Text FIRST to 622639, to sign up for First Read alerts to your mobile phone.
Check us out on Facebook and also on Twitter. Follow us @chucktodd, @mmurraypolitics, @DomenicoNBC, @aliweinberg, @brookebrower
Leave a Comment:
Looks as if Rep. Alan West is a misogynist at best and a full blown buffoon at worst:
I did a little research and it comes to light that yesterday wasn’t the first time Alan has made a sexist remark against women.
Here are Mr. West’s own eloquent words:
This coming from the guy who participated in ‘mock executions’;
His mother must be SO PROUD she certainly raised a waste of human life!
In the meantime, the party of pale, male & stale continue to reveal their true colors by sending
checks to this radical women, Muslim, Jew hater!
Pay close attention America, the Tea Baggers are revealing what they really stand for & according to Mr. West it's 'oral relief stations'.....
A Destructive, Broken Congress:
This morning I read that the Federal Reserve has been making plans for a potential U.S. default. The New York Times reports that, “Wall Street financial players are devising doomsday plans in case the clock runs out”. So the financial giants are becoming very, very worried.
I don’t blame them. As I commented yesterday, the Cut, Cap and Balance bill is DOA and the Gang of Six proposal will meet the same fate. Too many House liberals do not like the cut in Social Security provisions and too many conservatives are not interested in raising taxes. McConnell and Reid may need to dust off their Plan B because it will likely be needed.
Speaking of raising taxes, I have read on two separate sites that wealthy donors have said to Cantor, it’s OK to raise our taxes. Stop being dogmatic and recalcitrant, knock off the demagoguery, and support tax increases. Now why on earth would they tell Cantor that?
The answer is deceptively simple. If the middle class has more money, they will spend more money. If they have more money they will buy flat screen TV’s, replace that old refrigerator, fix up the porch. The more the middle class spends, the more the wealthy make. Their additional earning would be far more than a tax rate increase.
It seems that the Fed’s get it, Wall Street gets it, and Main Street Americans get it. Polls clearly show that average Americans want both cuts and an increase in taxes. It seems that the only people who don’t get it are Cantor, Boehner and the Tea Party. These folks are willing to destroy the American economy, as well as the world economy. For what reason? Conservative ideology. Those folks are not fit to govern.
Allen West is the TEA Parties antithesis to President Obama. The TEA Drinkers will do anything to try show they embrace different cultures.
When I heard about Herman Cain, the TEA Drinkers Republican Hope for President, and his hatred for muslim worship, I just threw up my hands as to how hard they are trying to present themselves as inclusive.
The TEA Drinkers are truly showing their true colors and it is putrid mixed with rancid green.
Tea Party congressionals do act like children. But let's remember they're acting on behalf of the corporations and multi-nationals that got them elected into Congress. Big Oil/Kochs/COC/Rove/ et al. pumped undisclosed $millions into them for the midterms.
Michelle Bachmann's says in her ad she "Will-not-raise-the debt ceiling". Meanwhile, the US Treasury, Fed, Banks, Bond raters, and economists predict catastrophic global consequences if US credit score is downgraded from Triple A ~~ set to happen anytime now.
Remember Norquist who has 95% of Republican congressional signatures? He said, "I want the US government to be the size I can fit in my bathtub, so I can run it down the drain." These cunning strategies on behalf of multinationals (that btw include non-American companies) and the wealthy have long been in the works.
Republicans don't need to create jobs because that isn't what they're after. They don't need a constructive agenda for our country because that is not their goal. What they want is to undermine the United States. Their plans hinge on manufacturing chaos and crises. Their vision is to get around democracy, bring down the government and its President, and put corporations in control.
We can reject the future the top 2% is creating for us if we're determined to see clearly what they're doing.
The GOP/TP Party is lost. Just look at what is going on in Wisconsin and across the Nation. Recent Polls show that the support of America is behind our President and NOT behind the GOP/TP. Wall Street is chastising the GOP/TP for their "Obstructionist" views on the Debt Ceiling.
The GOP/TP knows Bachmann is not a viable candidate and are trying to throw her under the bus. They know Romney cannot beat President Obama so they are beating the bushes looking for another candidate. The smart ones want nothing to do with this election.
At this rate President Obam is going to win in 2012 and we will take bck the House.
“With less than two weeks before the United States cannot borrow more money, the Federal Reserve and Wall Street are making plans to prepare for the country’s possible default on its $14.3 trillion debt.”
Me, too. Recently, I have decided to take Rahm Emannuel’s advice “Never let a good crisis go to waste”. In my retirement investments I have a portion called “fun money”. It’s money that, if I lost every penny, it would not affect my retirement standard of living. Recently, I have taken some profits on my “fun money” and am holding cash in anticipation of some good buying opportunities at temporarily low prices caused solely by the morons (both sides) in Washington. When this Washington nonsense is resolved, I expect to be laughing all the way to the bank. Thanks for the advice, Rahm.
From Politico:
The Fed, Wall St. plan for default
By: Reid J. Epstein
July 21, 2011 06:08 AM EDT
With less than two weeks before the United States cannot borrow more money, the Federal Reserve and Wall Street are making plans to prepare for the country’s possible default on its $14.3 trillion debt.
In the most revealing comments to date, Charles Plosser, the president of the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, told Reuters the nation has for months been in “contingency planning mode” to deal with the fallout when the federal government runs out of money.
“We are developing processes and procedures by which the Treasury communicates to us what we are going to do,” Plosser said. “How the Fed is going to go about clearing government checks. Which ones are going to be good? Which ones are not going to be good? There are a lot of people working on what we would do and how we would do it.”
The Treasury Department has repeatedly denied making plans for default, saying raising the debt ceiling is the lone acceptable option. A spokesman did not comment to Reuters.
Wall Street officials are in the same boat, devising what the New York Times called “doomsday plans in case the clock runs out.”
Meanwhile, the Wall Street firms, the Times wrote, are seeking to reduce their risk related to Treasury bonds while hedge funds are hoarding cash to purchase U.S. debt if the price plummets in the event of a post-default sell-off.
Don't any of you, or any of the media, or any of the general public pay any attention at all? None of this is about what's best for the country or the economy over all.
Mr McConnel laid it out pretty concisely early on. Obama has to be defeated at any cost. That, after all, was the original mission. Nothing more, nothing less.
Having said that- with the exception of a Joe somebody in Albany, there are some pretty damned good posts again already on First Thoughts.
Carry on, good citizens.
DBO:
Very true. As I have been saying this has never been about the Debt Ceiling anymore than the Ryan Bill was about "Fiscal Responsibility". It is all about Power and Greed and who controls it. The GOP/TP does not care about America and its people. The polls and nationwide rallies seem to indicate that the people now realize what the GOP/TP really stands for and they are speaking out against them.
The GOP/TP is betting against the American People. They want the economy to fail and unemployment to increase. This, they think is their only way to get back the White House - PERIOD.
Feisty,
I Agree. Perhaps this current group of GOP good old boys club, new symbol should be changed from an elephant to a pig. It suits them well, especially Alan West.
Louis,
"Allen West is antithesis to President Obama. The TEA Drinkers will do anything to try show they embrace different cultures."
So true, the Tea Parties started in February 2009. That was one month after President Obama took office. I wonder where they were before that when under W. Bush was in charge and our nation was bought to its knees with a threat of a great depression under W. Bush, and the massive spending that took place under his reign.
Well, the answer becomes clearer after some common sense reflection is used and I know us Progressives have a pretty good idea as to why this Tea Party was suddenly formed once President Obama took office.
I guess you can call it for what it is. It's a group that wants to keep the good old white boys in power.
Drive By,
You are 100% correct.
So, Joe, since you love Ed Schultz so much you must approve of the way he stuck up for Michele Bachmann last night as she stood up to the attack by Karl Rove on her migraines.
Right?
Geithner better have a plan. The Democrats and Obama keep playing this childish game with Republicans where they don't put any plans on the table of their own and expect the GOP to do all the heavy lifting. The GOP has done the heavy lifting and they have made, and passed in the House, multiple proposals on the FY2012 budget and the debt ceiling.
And Obama continues to do nothing, except to campaign and figure out new ways to blame others. He (Obama) has been doing the same for for 2.5 years, so why stop now.
Feisty to continue our discussion from yesterday from which I am still waiting for a response from you.
You had asked for ONE example of something Obama proposed that the Republicans supported. I suggested the extension of the Bush tax cuts. You rejected this and said that Obama did not propose these but was forced into them by the big bad Republicans.
I then posted - Since you refuse to accept that your guy signed the bill retaining the previously named Bush tax cuts indicating his agreement with them or was he too weak to fight them even with the tremendous public support you claim was behind him, and since you or any Democrat by the way, weren't in any of the discussions that would prove it wasn't part of his proposal to the Republicans, how about taking on the Obama Afghanistan surge?? Didn't he propose that at West Point and wasn't it supported and passed by the Republicans??
Source: Associated Press
WASHINGTON - Months behind schedule and stripped of money for domestic stimulus programs, legislation to fund the troop surge in Afghanistan was sent to President Barack Obama on Tuesday after disgruntled Democrats failed to block it.
Democratic leaders had to rely on Republican support to pass the almost $59 billion measure to fund Obama's additional 30,000 troops in Afghanistan and other programs. The final vote was 308-114. Twelve Republicans and 102 Democrats opposed it.
If I understand your original concept correctly – you and all your pals agree with Carney that a leader should not put out a plan that the opposition won’t support. How is he supposed to lead?? Is he only to preach to the choir?? Is he not capable of convincing the “non-believers” that his way is correct? Won’t the liberal press support him and tell everybody that the president’s plan is great and wonderful?? Won’t sycophants like you, Navy, Bev and all of the rest of your Dew Drop Inn crowd tell him how great he is and try to convince others on this blog like me how wrong they are not to support his plan??? When he was running for president he had a plan for everything and everyone, I might have even thought one of them was good (I can’t remember what that was so don’t ask) but there were just too many which I thought were bad and still do but that should not stop him from putting something out.
BTW, the Democrats could have avoided all of this if they had passed a budget that took this into account when they controlled all branches of the government. Still nothing from the Senate after 800+ days and now Reid is waiting for the House to tell him what to do. Give me a break, that my friend is NOT leadership, that is NOT hope and that is NOT change. It is however a sure sign of leadership weakness. Exactly the kind of leadership weakness Obama railed against when he voted not to extend the debt ceiling under Bush when he was a senator.
According to his supporters, we need to raise the debt limit to pay for the weak leadership of the past who passed all of our current debt obligations. So who exactly was he calling weak for putting in all of the spending programs we are now obligated to pay for? Was it FDR for putting in Social Security (which we actually pay for and which every Congress has raided to fund their own little /big pet projects), LBJ for putting in Medicare and Medicaid, Reagan for strengthening the defense of the country, Bush 1 & 2 for defending the country or Bill Clinton for pressuring Fannie Mae to expand mortgage loans to unqualified low and moderate income borrowers which led to the beginnings of the financial meltdown?
Yes I know he said he was mistaken in his vote but what exactly was he mistaken about?? Was it his criticizing the leadership displayed by his predecessors?? In any event it’s too late now. He should face the music and lead. That is what he was elected for. What he’s doing now is trying to shift the tough decisions to somebody else so he looks “Presidential” and above the fray. I would prefer it if instead of looking Presidential he acted Presidential and told us exactly what he’s for.
Now what about an answer to my question Redhead - what about that job you supposedly have not working for First Read or whatever left wing blog group you want to call it?? When are you going to answer me on that??? You spend way too much time here to have a real job that anybody other than the DNC would pay you to do.
Also Feisty how come you don't include the 3.9 Trillion cost of the tax cuts for the "Middle Class" in you display of the Obama tax cut costs??
Oh, and one more thing to quote you,
“NO matter how hard you try to spin it - those UNFUNDED tax cuts will now be known as Obama's... lol
Damn those pesky facts! ;o))”
Feisty -
It always amazes me how people like West ever get elected. Their must be a lot of simple people in his district,
I did a little research and it comes to light that yesterday wasn’t the first time Alan has made a sexist remark against women.
____________________________________
Imagine how pathetic your life must be for you to actually spend time on something as trivial and useless as researching and documenting the ravings of an Alan Grayson-like kook like Alan West??
Poor Chris Matthews...still trying to make the tired comparisons between Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama. That's getting harder to do with each passing day, isn't?
At this point in Reagan's presidency, his policies were turning the economy around, and breaking the back of high inflation and double-digit interest rates...as a result, his poll numbers were rising steadily, and Reagan was on his way to a landslide reelection victory.
President Obama's economic policies have produced an economy that is slowing, with a rising unemployment rate...and, his job approval numbers are falling. His trajectory doesn't suggest an easy reelection campaign at all.
Liberal/progressives need to ask themselves why it's so important to them that President Obama can be compared favorably to President Reagan...why is that, exactly?
Chris Matthews spends so much time lamenting the loss of what he believes the Republican Party used to be...a party he wasn't a member of and did not support.
Everytime I listen to Matthews, I lament the loss of who he once was, and am left to wonder how he became the shrill ideologue we see today.
Well he right wing cyber thugs won't have Cenk Uygur to kick around any more:
Another 418,000 new jobless claims. 15 straight weeks over 400,000.
9.2% unemployment and rising. 14 million unemployed and rising. 1 in 7 on food stamps and rising. 1.8% GDP, that one is falling. And Obama wants the debt ceiling raised by $2.5 trillion so he can run the nations debt to $16.7 Trillion dollars in his remaining 18 months in office.
Obama - The second term of Carter
Having said that- with the exception of a Joe somebody in Albany, there are some pretty damned good posts again already on First Thoughts.
____________________________________________________________
DBO: Thanks for the compliment. Anytime my posts are dissed by a lefty liberal I know I've won.
Did you flag it for collapse??
The debt ceiling argument(s) continues to plumb the depths of ignorance and stupidity.
Cutting spending is a necessity. Raising revenue is a necessity. It is true that government is not a business and cannot be run like a business, and it is also true that a household cannot be run like the government. However, what they have in common is a budget. (I write that knowing that a vast number of households and many small businesses do not actually have a budget. They eat, they have a roof over their head(s), so everything must be OK.)
The idiotic scenario we are watching here, where Republicans hold the economy hostage with their indefensible demands that the budget be balanced without raising revenues, has been played out under virtually identical conditions in California for the last 30 years, and each and every year, the situation there worsens.
Spending cuts alone will not reduce the national debt. This should be a Captain Obvious moment. Anyone who runs a budget knows the gap between income and spending CANNOT remain in the red into perpetuity. Anyone who runs a budget knows there are payments that have to be made, contracts that have to be honored. You have to buy food, you have to pay rent, you have to pay the medical bills, and so on.
After a point, you know that you have no more cuts to make. What do you do? Stiff the doctor? Don't pay for gasoline? Shut off your utilities? No! Hell, no! You find ways to increase your income. You know it. There is no alternative.
Yet, the right-wing screamers who seem to dominate the Republican Party, really do dominate the party. They insist that spending cuts will end the red ink. They are wrong, and the Republican leaders know they are wrong, but..........LET'S GET REAL. They really love government. They will do anything to remain a part of it. They love their paychecks, and in case anyone hasn't noticed, let me make it clear. They are being paid as I write this AND they are doing nothing. That's pretty good work if you can get it AND they are not about to let this job go.
Check the bio's of these guys: McConnell, Boehner, and Cantor. They've been chowing down at the government trough for many, many years. The same is true for many other Republicans. Check it out! As far as some of the Tea Party wing nuts, the Walsh's, the West's, the Bachmann's - they truly don't understand arithmetic. Really and truly they don't understand simple arithmetic. And for world-class hypocrisy, Bachmann has been willing to take government money, and the bully West made a career out of government.
Now, Democrats - WILL YOU STEP UP AND EXPOSE THESE NUTS? WILL YOU STEP UP AND OFFER CLEAR AND DEFINITIVE SPENDING CUTS? WILL YOU STEP UP AND OFFER TAX RATE INCREASES AND SPECIFY TAX EXPENDITURES THAT MUST BE ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK? WILL YOU STEP UP AND HELP REASONABLE REPUBLICANS - THE LOYAL OPPOSITION - PURGE THEIR PARTY OF THE NUTS WHO ARE TRYING TO DESTROY THIS COUNTRY?
SHOW US THAT AMERICA AND AMERICANS COME FIRST.
Talk to me when West becomes as much of a mysogynist as Keith Olbermann is.
You all loved Keith, didn't you? (Please see: "Countdown" Special Comments, Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton.)
From Feisty (quoting):
So, is this the wartime service that some said yesterday could explain West's e-mail to Congresswoman Wasserman-Schultz? As if that somehow excused it?
If so, I suggest we re-think that. Even setting aside the Wasserman-Schultz incident, this revelation, in combination with West's obvious paranoia, as evidenced by his accusation that Congressman Klein was using "Gestapo" tactics against him by videotaping his speeches, is clear evidence that West is not fit to serve ANYWHERE, much less in the United States Congress.
Well, you certainly knew how to get MY goat, didn't you? And you also know that you won't get any argument from me on that, although at least Olbermann has moderated his public conduct in the recent past.
Now, can you kindly do something about David Letterman?
Regarding the flap over Congressman West's comments:
1. A tempest in a teapot.
2. This guy wouldn't last around here very long. One zinger from Feisty and he'd go ballistic PDQ.
P.S. At such time as the left acknowledges their strategy of trashing strong conservative women like Palin, Bachmann, Coulter, et. al. then I'll entertain discussion of the propriety of West's remarks. But not until then.
You're asking a lot from the Democrats Dave. they haven't come up with any ideas or plans yet, and it's doubtful they will.
The Democrats - the party of no-ops.
Da Noid: Since they moved Mr. Ed to 10:00 I stopped watching. I have better things to do with my time and he was no longer as funny as he was in the earlier time slot. His F-bomb melt-down in the MSDNC back offices where the bosses threatened to fire him and his Laura Ingraham "slut" suspension probably had something to do with it. As Mr. Ed is fond of saying about the "righties", for him it's now "All about he money and power" of his new status.
Ronald Reagan would have been cast out of today's Republican Party as a Liberal.
Elections do have consequences. All of the idiots out there who support the Grover Norquist, lock-step, NO thinking, Tea drinking Republicans had better realize that if there is no deal on the debt and the world economy goes into total melt-down, this one is VERY MUCH ALL YOURS.
You wanted to control the government. Well, you got it. NOW GOVERN!!!!
What a total waste of words and effort. All red herrings to divert attention from the abysmal performance and total failure of Obama as president. Obama is our worst president ever and his destruction of America far overshadows the trivial emails between W-Shultz and West. I don't give one tinker's damn about this media horse manure. What I want is for Obama to leave office as soon as physically possible. His dismal performance and behavior is far worse than any other news events.
Ditto, DBO's comment.
The problem for Mitch McConnell, he's stuck where he put himself and he's scared spitless because he, despite his 2 plus year defeat Obama at all costs agenda, understands the disaster awaiting ALL of us as a result of the position his party took regarding the debt ceiling. He knows it is the GOPTP that will be blamed when the roof caves in. As Lindsay Graham said, the only ones they (GOPTP) have to blame are themselves because of their own words.
Methinks your own misogynist slip may be showing a little bit, Bill.
At such time as you acknowledge the VERY real possibility that all the women you have named are severely underqualified to be taken seriously, and name one REALLY qualified conservative woman that anyone here has attacked, the way that Hillary Clinton was attacked by the right (including but not limited to the way she looked in a pantsuit), then I'll "entertain" discussion about the validity of YOUR remarks.
And not one minute before.
And for those who were, until recently, fond of pointing out that Schultz started out as a Republican, would it be fair to say "once a conservative, always a conservative"?
The reason you guys have a hard time believing, anyone like West could get elected is the very thing that makes you unable to see the freight train headed your way at 100mph. You just refuse to believe that people DO NOT all think or believe the things you do. Your mantra would be "Theres not train ....Theres no train.....theres no...... SPLAT! Crap where did that train come from.
Famous quotes:
Ronald Reagan - The problem is not that people are taxed too little, the problem is that government spends too much.
Barack Obama - We gotta eat our peas
Anna Molly-
You aren't referring to me, are you, AM?
Anyway...
Are you certain that the incident you reference sums up the entire career service record of Rep. West? Rep. West served in the U.S. Army for more than 20 years, AM.
General George S. Patton once slapped a U.S. soldier who was hospitalized for psychoneurosis, and accused him of cowardice...does that tell the whole story of General Patton? Does that incident sum up his entire military career?
In my opinion, you're painting with too broad a brush, Anna Molly.
You even sound a bit sanctimonious...unless you've endured combat conditions yourself.
I've been saying for some time now that it's sad when Conservative Republicans have become so extreme that they're difficult to parody. Every time a writer thinks they've come up with something funny and effective the GOPTP proves that they've already jumped that shark. I think, though, that the Onion nailed it this time;
In spite of that it's hard to laugh when someone speaks a truth that ugly.
Job1:
Although the "Tea Party" movement coalesced in early 2009, in fact the basics of the movement have been arouond since the late 1970's. Thomas Frank, in The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Ruined Government, Enriched themselves, and Beggared the Nation, documents the ways that characters such as Jack Abramoff, Ralph Reed, and Grover Norquist developed, and used, tactics similar to the Tea Party's to raise sums of money from folk frightened by their outrageous direct mail campaigns, organized groups like the Tea Party on college campuses, and adopted the attack tactics they promote today.
The Tea Party movement embraced all manner of strange groups that share one centeral concept: They hate the government, see taxation as "theft," consider regulations some sort of criminal interference in "free markets," despise not just abortion but also birth control, and in many cases, think that the U.S. should be a "Christian nation" run by fundamentalist preachers. These disparate groups, some composed of the tattered remains of the old John Birch Society, the militia movements, states' rights fanatics and separatists, and of course the bizarre "Christian" white power supremacists, make for a volatile and potentially violent mix.
We should remember that the 2010 election was not a mandate for the Tea Party and its positions. Only 22% of voters endorsed the Tea Party - a figure that is pretty much the same now as on last Election Day. The leading issues were neither the deficit nor the national debt, but jobs, the economy, and public disgust at partisan battling in Washington. The Tea Party only controls about 5% of the seats in both houses of Congress, and about 8% of the GOP House contingent.
What's behind so much power, then? Money, pure and simple.
Outfits like Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform, the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, and others, channel immense amounts of money to lobbyists, to campaign war chests, to third-party campaign spending groups. Norquist and the others, of course, get quite wealthy in the process, but they also acquire the clout to virtually blackmail officeholders.
And they think that collapsing the government, and the economy of the world, will at last let them finish establishing a cartel political economy in the United States. All they need to do is push their radical plans through while the chaos of the debt ceiling gives them the opportunity. The Tea Party is mounting a legislative coup d'etat, orchestrated by the likes of Norquist and others.
Joe and anyone else- I absolutely refuse to collapse anyone's posts. Not Joes, Not "ME First" Bill's, Not No Jo's, Not Smiffs- NO ONE'S. 'taint right.
BTW, thanks for the honesty, Joe, in why it is you post on here every day. To 'be dissed by a lefty-lib'.
What a guy.
Some people blame Obama. Some blame republicans in congress. Some blame democrats in congress.
Blame all of them for the mess. Every single one is more worried about how they will look going into the next election than what they're doing to the country.
OK, I take back what I said about the Onion. Considering the 21% approval Congressional Republicans are receiving for their handling of the debt ceiling the comment below is downright hilarious!
Mea culpa, Bag Boy. My apologies. You know better than that. It's just that sexism tends to rattle my cage.
I did agree with you about Olbermann, after all. That alone probably lost me some points on my side.
As for Patton, however, maybe it does. Is there any inherent reason why a brilliant general cannot also be a decent human being? I never heard of Eisenhower slapping anyone around.
Mixed Bag
"Talk to me when West becomes as much of a mysogynist as Keith Olbermann is."
We will. When Olberman tosses his hat in the ring for a run at Prez......
Allen West's e-mail to Debbie Wasserman-Schultz added proof that he is a bully and a coward. He told her that "if you have something to say to me, stop being a coward and say it to my face"..... Note that Allen West did not have the courage to make his comment to HER FACE--he sent an e-mail. What a cowardly clown.
dirp101. Well said.
The House has always been the home of the politician who serves the basement dwelling radicals. You can take a bath in the foam coming out of the rep's mouths from both parties. It is where radicals try to have their day in the sun, and beat their chests red because they get elected far too frequently to ever stop having a need to act like a clown for their mentally unstable constituents. Will the bill pass the House? Probably. But you'll have all the peacocks saying they didn't want to pass the bill because either they are from the party of pink skirts (Tea Bagger Republicans) who've got to explain why they have become such cowards, or from the party of sellouts (Wall Street Democrats) who want to pretend that taking bribes somehow forwards the cause of the needy and downtrodden.
dirp101
Concise and to the point - but the truth is, the "conservative" movement is supremely cynical. As I wrote in some posts prior to the 2010 elections, the Tea Party movement in fact is dedicated to NOT governing.
Their main objective is to remove the government. Their belief is that "government is the problem, not the solution." Of course, considering the intentional incompetence of government under Ronald Reagan and the two Bush regimes, people can't be blamed for holding such an impression. That those three administrations together created and moved forward the complete ruin of the American - and global - economy with corrupt, and criminal, activities makes no difference. To them, "fix the government" means closing it.
MSNBC's info-idiot Condessa Brewer - Graduate from Syracuse University's Newhouse School of Public Communications, arguing economics with Rep Mo Brooks (R-AL):
Brewer: "Do you have a degree in economics?"
Brooks: "Yes ma'am I do. Highest honors."
Brooks economics degree is from Duke, not Syracuse University's Newhouse School of Public Communications.
And what does Condessa know about economics seeing she has a degree from Syracuse University's Newhouse School of Public Communications?
dbo-
West is running for President?
Breaking news...
John B -
Wait a minute, I LOVE The Onion! Did anyone else click on the link and read the rest of the "story"? :
"It is a question that, I think, is worthy of serious consideration: Should we take steps to avoid a crippling, decades-long depression that would lead to disastrous consequences on a worldwide scale? Or should we not do that?" asked House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA), adding that arguments could be made for both sides, and that the debate over ensuring America’s financial solvency versus allowing the nation to default on its debt—which would torpedo stock markets, cause mortgage and interests rates to skyrocket, and decimate the value of the U.S. dollar—is “certainly a conversation worth having.”
It's just sad how many people here would read that and not get the satire. "Yeah, you tell 'em, Eric!"
By the way, The Onion has an on-line store on their site and I was just looking at this cool coffee mug that says "Fill this, Intern". I say we go together and get a set of six of them for Spanky. Anyone else in?
JoAnna-
I'll see Contessa's degree, and raise you Keith Olbermann's degree from Cornell's College of Agriculture and Life Sciences.
Good morning and excellent post REB. Way to many facts for the FR cult though. You will have them drunk on koolaide today trying to deny, twist, flip/flop and spin all those facts. Oh wait these are the FR junkies, LAMO
In defense of Keith Olbermann, I liked him but that does not mean I agreed with everything he ever said or did. I enjoyed his show because he wasn't afraid to give his opinion nor was he afraid to call out any and all politicians, both sides, when he disagreed. What I most appreciated about Countdown was the fact that finally there was a liberal voice given a place to express liberal views. Keith Olbermann deserves credit and respect for not being afraid to question politicians, legislators, or the president; he didn't limit his criticism to one side.
I do not agree with everything Lawrence O'Donnell, Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz say or do either but like Keith Olbermann, they stick with truth and provide their view based on fact not fiction--it's up to viewers to make up their own mind. When they make a mistake, we get an apology along with the correct information. They make us think.
Mixed and Joanne, I think it is fairly well established that TV newscasters often have little to none credentials for telling news if they are sitting in the studio all the time, spewing at you with their talking heads. Get your TV news, if you must, from the on scene reporters. At least they are in the field, at the scene.
When it comes to economics, however, being on the scene will hardly help you, however, as 'the scene' is a bunch of hormone driven traders and fat headed, out of touch CEOs.
Hi John,
Great information. Thanks
What's the matter today Feisty? Got your old panties in a bunch because a man put a woman in her place? Or is it because a republican once again sut up a democrat at their game?
Either way, all of your posts appear to be just as bland, narrow-minded and far left reaching as usual.
West put that cowardly witch in her place and you, just like her can't believe (or as a loyal left wing nut job as you are) simply refuse to believe someone else could be right.
She's in the big leagues now. If she can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.
He did kick Nixon a lot though.
I find it interesting that you mention this in this manner, John A. We have already seen a judicial coup d'etat in the Citizen's United ruling (that has still gone unchallenged by ANY legislation).
The powers that be have already tried and were successful with an executive coup d'etat with the appointment of George Bush II as President in 2000 and 2004, so what makes you think that they would NOT try this again??
Great point, John A. Conservatives have for decades pursued a strategy of hobbling what had been effective regulatory agencies, then pointing fingers and screaming "J'ACCUSE!!" when the planned failure occurs. Look at New Orleans, where the hurricane everyone knew FOR DECADES would eventually come destroyed a great city. Once the inevitable happened Conservatives blamed local officials and victims, working hard to avoid any responsibility for FEMA.
YesJAS1 - And the Repulicans have been in control of Congress since January.....so where are the jobs!!!!???? There's plenty of abortion legislation, anti-union legislation, repeal of HCRA, but nothing to spur job growth. Hmm!! Seems they haven't been doing their JOB!
Nothing constructive to say about the article eh Feisty? What? You don't have an opinion or plan on the debt crisis? Not very surprising, neither do any other democrats.
So instead of dealing with the article you go off on some nonsensical rant about some biker magazine?
Typical
Mixed:
The Lefties here used to quote Keithy every day, chapter and verse. Now? Nothing. They know he's back on the tube, but they just can't figure out where.
Fiesty obviously you don't like Allen West because he is black, and the comment about his mother is additional proof. If Obama's mother was black you probably couldn't stomach him either. Oh well you can't hide your racists tendencies forever. I guess I probably need to pray for your soul.
@drive-by-observer #1.35
wow,
You are the first person I have every heard on any of the posts on msnbc, who actually understands the First Amendment.
You may NOT like or agree with what people say but, you know they have a right to express themselves and that no two people ever think alike on every subject, let alone an entire nation, or world.
kudos and lots of respect!
Interesting that the First Read democratic blog failed to mention Cut, Cap and Balance.
1. McConnell/Reid - usurps the constitional authority of congress to approve the budget. Does not actually cut anything nor put any contingencies on increases. Useless plan.
2. "Grand Bargain" ....lol...this is no bargain. Cutting $3.7 trillion of deficit out of a projected $18 trillion deficit over 10 years is useless. There are zero specifics offered on what would be cut. It once again includes Obama's mystery $500 billion in medicare cuts (for a third time). If we agree to this piece of garbage, the national debt will be near $30 trillion in 2021. Welcome to Greece.
3. Gang of Six plan - a little better, but still...zero specifics. Also, once again, spending INCREASES over the next two years....only $4 trillion in savings over 10, and again...we're facing a $30 trillion debt in 2021.
Cut, Cap and Balance is about the only plan presented that limits the growing deficit and may make it managable in 10 years.
Yet another reprehensible, out-of-the-blue effort to divert attention from the subject by pulling the race card, Bob Jones-3591206.
You lose on the facts, both with your accusation, as well as in the general discussion of Rep. West. Folk in his district are quire disgusted with him. And Feisty at no point made any reference to his race - merely his performance.
But we know that the right wing IS fixated on race, and we have certainly seen so many instances of Tea Party promoters who openly parade their racist hatred of President Obama, his wife, and his daughters.
What a disgusting person. Bob, it's time for the "ignore" button in your case. You add nothing to the discussion but you most certainly detract from it.
So Joe, please let us know why you think it's appropriate to hijack routine business--the debt limit has been increased 74 times since JFK was President--in order to cram draconian program cuts and a ruinous balanced budget amendment down the throats of Americans.
If these measures have merit they'll have merit when debated in a reasonable way, without immediate threat of economic destruction. The tactic being used by House leadership would seem to convey that even they know they're selling a pig in a poke.
Holding the American economy hostage for ideological points isn't just bad politics...it's bad for the United States.
Yes Joe (numbers) - it is interesting because this bill will die in the Senate, and even if it did make it through the Senate, the President will veto it.
This is another case of 'legislative bluster' that produces absolutely nothing.
While I actually agree with you that the other 'options' on the table are silly, stupid, and idiotic, the one and ONLY option that will stave off all of this drama is a 'clean' debt ceiling bill that will sail through all chambers and be signed by the President.
I am not holding my breath on any 'clean' debt ceiling bill coming from THIS House of Representatives.
All of this 'drama' is a waste of time. The House Republicans wanted to use the debt ceiling to try and reign in spending, but they have bungled their opportunity (again). They are still smarting from the last battle, where their percieved $38 BILLION cut in the budget was ACTUALLY $352 MILLION, and are looking for payback. Before, they wanted to shut down the Government, and now it looks like they want to crash the American economy.
BTW, thanks for the honesty, Joe, in why it is you post on here every day.
___________________________________________________
Strictly for the laughs, and believe me, some of the lefty liberal nonsense here is Hillaryously FUNNY!!!!
You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.
Unlike the jolly old slob who felt it necessary to point out he's white in a post below!
Where's all the selective POUTRAGE from the right wing nuts about THAT!
I mean it was only yesterday the usual suspects were all over you JohnA, for mentioning someone was black!
Like I said to Nash, they sent in their 'bench warmers' today & have taken one to many direct hits to the head from the dodgeball!
Tip to Bobby - you really should wait until the med cart arrives before commenting! ;o)
In either case the Washingtonians are playing good cop bad cop. The biggest problem for Dems is too many jobless Blacks, Latinos and poor Whites and newly minted college graduate uncertain future. Watch out...
Two words Johnnie: "Changing Circumstances".
Does the DDI pass out tin-foil hats?
I haven't seen so many conspiracy theories in a long time. The Koch Brothers, ALEC, Citizens United, overthrow of the government by a corporate oligopoly. Tea Party members elected by corporations to push their evil agenda. If the corporations are so powerful how come we have a Democratic Senate and Administration?
And if you think congressional districts that elect Tea Party members are populated by the uneducated and fools, explain to me how Charlie Rangel got re-elected.
Well, well, well, it seems there is one thing we CAN agree on.
No one will ever see me defend Contessa Brewer for her substantive knowledge. Or Savannah Guthrie, either.
But I don't think that same thing holds for Keith Olbermann, whatever anyone might say about his degree, and whatever else I might say about his attitudes toward women.
And for those who were, until recently, fond of pointing out that Schultz started out as a Republican, would it be fair to say "once a conservative, always a conservative"?
__________________________________________
AM: If you think that moron Mr. Ed is really a conservative, you need new glasses and a new hearing aid. He's just another full-of-sh!t hypocritical lefty liberal who, now that he's "got his", will play by the rules that let him keep the "money and power" from his new status at MSDNC. Hell, he even got rid of that ridiculous red hair dye job.
So, if the stock markets plunge in the next couple of weeks will you take a few bucks out of the mattress and jump in on some temporary "going out of business" sale prices in the stock market?
John, that one is easy. How well is routine business in government working? Wasn't this the president that ran on CHANGING routing business? Hijack it? No....demand a change to it.
Also, the debt ceiling increase the White House is demanding is 250% higher than any other debt ceiling increase before. Why? So Obama doesn't have to be hindered by spending too much during his reelection campaign and the democratic senators and representatives can't be called to the table next year on fiscal irresponsibility.
What they know is that the attention span of the general public isn't very long. If they had to ask again for more money next year, they would get "shellacked" in November once again. So instead, they are DEMANDING this increase to make themselves look better....the hell with the American citizen it's all about reelection.
If Obama was sincere about CHANGE he would realize that there is a deadline and accept a short-term solution....but that's not how he works. His administration rushes things through without thought. ARRA, TARP, Obamacare....all pushed through only to later find out that contingencies and regulations were missing.
This is the acme of government irresponsibility.
What draconian cuts are you talking about? Got a single number and how it will relate in the future? (I don't expect a quick answer while you scour "think progress" for something to latch onto).
Or could it be that you just had to find a way to kiss Shumer's butt by using his catch phrase?
I'm guessing it's the latter.
So you think it's routine to spend 10% more than what you earn every year for the next 10 years? If you had a friend and he asked to borrow 10% of his income every year so that he could maintain his life style would you lend him the money? If he told you it wasn't for college, or an improvement on his house or anything temporary, but this was simply so that he could continue to run Cadillac (metaphor for Medicare), and there was no chance he could ever repay the principal, would you think him a good credit risk?
The days of routine business ended when we started borrowing more than the economy was growing.
Are you saying that this DOESN'T apply to West? And if not, why not?
If you actually read Wasserman-Schultz's comments, then you know they weren't particularly harsh and certainly didn't merit that level of response.
Shouldn't West, as the big, strong military guy, have been the first one to have sucked it up?
Does the DDI pass out tin-foil hats?
I haven't seen so many conspiracy theories in a long time.
______________________________________________________
Speaking of nutjob conspiracy theorists, I wonder where "truther" Paul has been. Do you think Darth Cheney's black ops army finally took him out?
Ron Indiana,
Nailed it.
LoL That sort of was my plan, Joe. I tuned out everything my broker said until he got to "Fall will be the time to buy." And I'll be ready.
I didn't say that. But he did start out as a conservative, Joe, and got "religion" when he met a liberal woman. It's funny how that works sometimes. Anyway, my comment was more along the lines that if he is acting like a greedy conservative now that he he's got his, that's just to be expected.
By the way, what's wrong with red-haired men?
Alan, NJ - scoff all you want, but what some of us are seeing is the wholesale silencing of the electorate's VOTE, which is the only voice that the electorate has to affect change to how THEIR government is run.
By the Judiciary's Citizen's United decision, unlimited money from sources that many not be benevolent to the United States can be used to influence elections. That means that the person(s) who pay money will have THEIR agenda enacted, not the electorate, so their voices are effectively SILENCED.
By the Supreme Court deciding George W. Bush II's electon in 2000, it is pretty clear that the VOTE of the electorate doesn't mean anything because the SCOTUS can override it. The bottom line - your voice is SILENCED.
The only place left where the electorate's VOTE means anything - or has any influence - is in the Legislative Branch, so are we surprised that we see a dysfunctional Congress where nothing gets done? Are we surprised that now we are seeing a STALEMATE in almost everything that is being presented legislatively?
Alan, you yourself have complained bitterly on this blog numerous times that the Congress is not looking out for the electorate's interest, and NOW that we are pointing out the signs - which acutally AGREE with your premise and conclusion(s) - you want to say that this is a 'conspiracy'?
Republicans want a smaller government. Norquist wants it small enough to flush down the bathtub drain.
Smaller government = higher job losses.
Republicans the job destroying party.
AM: my question is why are the two fighting so passionately? Is there going to be some kind of redistricting which will pit them against each other ?
Or is it that West is an idiot and Wasserman-Shultz called him on it ?
Absolutely right, Ron. And it puts the lie to the incomprehensible nonsense pushed by the extremist zealots on your side that somehow rich folks want to "destroy the middle class." If that were to happen, few would be left to watch the exploits of Peyton Manning on TV and buy all those cars and beer that are advertised on same. And rich folks wouldn't be quite as rich as they once were. So, would you agree that folks like Navy Vet who constantly rant on this issue are barking up the wrong tree?
Now here's some irony. The owners have already seen to it that average folks HAVE to watch on TV because they can't afford tickets anymore, and they've moved many regular season and playoff games to cable, making them totally inaccessible unless you pay extra for that, too. Advertising revenue alone, it seems, is not enough to assuage their greed.
If THAT'S how the rich respect the middle class, I'll pass.
I have an elec engineering degree. However I can argue pro's and con's of different thermodynamic power plant systems with mech engineers
Summary - just because you do not have a degree in something doesnt make you clueless.
Well... maybe makes you clueless as it is clear with your post.
As reported here yesterday, What Wasserman-Schultz said wasn't so harsh -- not to mention unladylike -- that it should have drawn that level of response. Feisty's post speaks to West in general, as well as the incident where he accused another Florida representative of "Gestapo tactics" for video-taping his public appearances. Huh? Talk about if you can't take the heat .... Sheesh.
Anyway, from what I read here yesterday, I think that representative (Klein) and West are the ones who are in possible competition for a redistricted seat. Wasserman-Schultz appears to have been just an uppity liberal woman who dared to question West's position on Medicare.
Absolutely right, Ron. And it puts the lie to the incomprehensible nonsense pushed by the extremist zealots on your side that somehow rich folks want to "destroy the middle class."
_________________________________________________________
OUCH!!!!
Bill, that's Nasty (and I mean that in the most complimentary way). Using the FR lefty liberal's own words to shove their own arguments up their Donkey hole. Well done.
Here's a solution sure to please the TEA/GOP and some DEMS too.
Raise the age for Social Security to 90 for every body.
When it comes time for those who live long enough to collect after, they have paid into it forever, let them die out because they can't get Medicare.
Turn them into Soylent Green to feed the poor, that will end food stamps.
Keep ALL the money they have paid into Social Security to pay Americas Debts.
The RICH cronies get to never pay their fair share in taxes ever again.
The future Congress's and POTUS'S will never have to worry about, debt ceilings, credit ratings, or borrowing again.
Problem Solved!
Anna Molly - Wasserman-Schultz is out there protecting her constituents like a good reprenstative should. Mostly senior citizens.
There you go again AM, making up demeaning stuff just to attack folks who don't see the world the way you do. But let me allay your fears: I like strong women -- as long as they are clear thinking conservative women with a brain.
If all you "armchair politicians" and paid bloggers are so smart, as you seem to want people to believe that you are, then why dont you go to washington and clean up this mess, as you all seem to think you have the answer to how that should be done. Oh thats right, we already have a "cut and paste pro" living in our white house.
Cosign Ron Indiana said it best but its also a simple reason GOP wants Obama to look bad they dont want him to be re elected they said it to Americas face so there inaction is due to the there dis like of Obama. Plain and simple every bod else can raise the debt limit but Obama. Mitch Mcconell should be fired for the things he is saying.
Where is Beverly in Chicago? I haven't seen a post from her lately. Is she on vacation?
I see the new game is going to be pretending Cut Cap and Balance doesn't require massive cuts in government services. The Question was "what draconian cuts", knowing that the specifics are deliberately left out of the bill. The scale of the cuts ENSURES draconian cuts, however;
http://www.bluewavenews.com/2011/07/just-what-is-cut-cap-and-balance.html
This legislation is designed to force implementation of something very similar to the Ryan budget, which does not have the support of the American people and can't pass the Senate, with a balanced budget amendment thrown in to further the damage.
Republicans KNOW their agenda can't pass, so they're holding the entire economy hostage. It's a despicable tactic.
I could have guessed that. It's obviously only clear thinking LIBERAL women with brains (and I don't include myself in that category, so don't worry) that you don't like.
But, as for the clear-thinking conservative women with brains, I also see that you failed to take me up on my challenge that you name one.
Mike, is there any small amount of irony that those scoffing at Contessa's educational creds, as well as Olbermann's education, have curiously left out the complete LACK of education of say Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or others.
By their very own pretzel logic,...no one should listen to either of those I've mentioned because they simply aren't educated enough to discuss, right? And yet, here they are, talking points in hand and the radio a blaring on loop - until the next marching orders come down the pipe.
It's not so much the education (although I personally think there is much to be admired by someone who has put in the time), it is the reading for comprehension, critical thinking and analysis that comes by challenging a theory or idea and then supporting it with facts. Those are the things the uneducated seem incapable of doing themselves; and then they become derisive of those who DO.
It's odd and yet predictable.
Umm, and I always thought the high salaries of our prima donna athletes had a teensy bit to do with that. Silly me, they're just working class hired hands so I guess they don't count in this equation. BTW, you might want to take a look at data showing wired-cable and satellite TV penetration in the U.S. It's a really big number, most folks have it. And even if a ticket to a game were only a dollar, if the game sold out before I could get a ticket I would surely want to plop into my barcolounger and wtach the Ravens kick some butt on TV. A terrific bigscreen TV too I might add, nothing but the best for MeFirstBill. Is this a great country or what!
I composed this on a different 'Vine blog, but see it is approprite to the topic to repost here:
One of the elements a lot of people miss, or cover up in their overheated rhetoric about the deficit and debt, is that the debt ceiling itself has largely been an irrelevant artifact from World War I Congressional moitoring of how war bond campaigns financed the war. It was revised in 1939 and 1941.
The debt ceiling is related to the budget - routinely it has been raised to accomodate spending already authorized by Congress. Raising the debt ceiling does not allow the government to go on a wild spending spree like a drunken sailor. Instead, it permits the government to fulfill its obligations as determined by Congressional action.
Before there was any kind of debt ceilning, how the government financed itself depended upon whether there was a budget surplus or not. A great deal of U.S. debt was relatively short-term, and still is - intermittent borrowing to keep Treasury accounts stable compared with the inconsistent and unpredicatble receipts of revenues from taxes and fees. This, by the way, is almost the only way that the government operates like a business - the same kind of borrowing is common for businesses to manage cash flow.
Now the shrill cries of the right suggest that raising the debt ceiling just creates another "blank check" for President Obama. In fact, that is entirely wrong - a piece of propaganda that is utterly false.
The President may not spend one cent of either revenues or borrowed funds for any purpose other than described by law - as established by Congress. The ones who created the liabilities are the members of Congress who appropriated, and then authorized, funds for specific purposes.
The use of the debt ceiling to create a crisis in the government is a cynical ploy by the very members of Congress who created the conditions in which a debt ceiling increase is necessary. Rather than take on specific individual budgetary issues in full debate andnegotiations, by holding the debt ceiling vote hostage, they are hoping to cram down the nation's throat a radical and politically unpopular agenda. And some in the Tea Party are even willing to bring the entire country into collapse to get their way.
What makes Condessa clueless is she 1) Was trying to argue her point on economics, even though she doesn't know what she's talking about 2) She was having the argument with a person that did know what he was talking about. 3) She had no clue of her guests credendials. Condessa was trying to pull rank that somehow she knew better than her guest about what she was talking about (which was nothing more than left-liberal talking points). Condessa was real angry that someone had the audacity to question her left wing talking points. For her trouble, she got smacked down, real hard.
Condessa Brewer - MSNBC Host - Syracuse University's Newhouse School of Public Communications graduate - Info-idiot.
I always like folks who acknowledge their limitations. Your admission that you don't have a brain is the first step on the path to introspection I recommended for you on the thread below.
P.S. I enjoy jousting with you AM, and my comment was not meant to be as mean spirited as it looks. But you opened the door, and I just walked through it. So the lesson here is that when next we cross swords, be more careful about what you say :) Until then, this parting is such sweet sorrow...
How's those Republican jobs bills working out that the Republicans said during the last election they were going to pass? Everything the Republicans say about Obama killing jobs are political lies because they are creating the atmosphere that is killing jobs with their political fiasco. Here's a link to a graph showing the unemployment rate over the last ten years and how the tax cuts create jobs lie has been forced fed down the American people's throat.
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000
Notice how the unemployment was at 4.2% when Bush took office and jumped to 5.7% by the end of the year? Also notice when the unemployment started skyrocketing around the time that the Bush tax cuts was signed into law? Then notice the second spike in unemployment to over 6.3% in 2003. Wonder what caused that? Oh yeah, that's when the Republicans passed the second tax cut. So much for tax cuts creating jobs since the unemployment rate never did get back to pre-Bush levels but look at what happened in 2008. It shot the moon and only the stimulus package stopped the rise into double figures. Now before you start trying to pin the 2007-2008 increase on the Democrat congress, please explain what bill passed by congress and signed by Bush caused the unemployment to skyrocket. Now do we really want to go into the deficit history that shows that Reagan and G W Bush doubled/nearly doubled the deficit during their terms in office and that Reagan had the largest peace time increase in the deficit in the history of the US.
Prima donnas, they are, indeed, Bill, but they don't pay their own salaries, do they?
I high suspect that the owners don't get into that business expecting to live like ascetic monks, either.
As for cable penetration, I happen to know a few folks who've had to cut back recently, for whom cable was the first thing to go. And some of them enjoyed watching sports very much, drank a beer now and then, and actually bought cars from time to time, which now it will be harder for them to do.
We call them teachers here, Bill. And my own daughter, come to think of it.
Not everyone lives in the world of privilege. Maybe you should come out from behind the gate for a while and take a look around.
This whole thing goes to how not-seriously you take the middle class plight. Conservatives claim to be concerned about jobs, but you're not really, as long as you can kick back on your barcalounger and tip your Sam Adams at game time. With almost 10 percent unemployment, a declining workforce because of a lack of jobs (as no joe points out), and real wages that have been in decline for many years, and magically disappearing health care and other benefits, this will hardly be remembered as the Golden Age.
Except maybe for people like you. Enjoy.
Umm, Cut, Cap and Balance has already passed in the House of Representitives. Nice missinformation headline though goofballs.
laurie-480643
YesJAS1 - And the Repulicans have been in control of Congress since January.....so where are the jobs!!!!???? There's plenty of abortion legislation, anti-union legislation, repeal of HCRA, but nothing to spur job growth. Hmm!! Seems they haven't been doing their JOB!
laurie,
First it takes more than control of the house to get things done especially when things are so politically polar. I could ask the same question of democrats up until the Republicans took office in January and they did have total control of the government.
The debate in congress over the debt ceiling is about stopping job loss and spurring job creation or have you forgotten that it is actually the economy that creates jobs for people not the government? Government influences the economy with policies, regulations and tax laws. Proper use of these tools feeds the fuel that runs the economy, revs it up, and makes it expand. That is when new jobs are created. Current policy, regulation, and tax laws have the economy only growing at a meager 1.8% and even that is slowing. The net effect is the slow but steady increases in unemployment we have seen over the last several months. The bottom line is that to continue on the path that the current administration set down will only continue to grind things down. Spending must be brought under control with serious and solid cuts across the board, once those are in place then taxes can be raised to offset the difference. Deficit spending in the short term can be a powerful tool to jump start an economy, overboard and endless deficit spending leads us to where we are now, on the verge of economic collapse.
LoL Do you have some idea that you actually won this exchange? Dream on, Romeo.
By the way, I'm still waiting on that challenge. Until then .... ;-)
Ummm ... Can you, or anyone else, explain to me the interface between Cut, Cap, and Balance and the Ryan Budget, which ALSO passed in the House? Do they collide or are they completely separate measures, and if so, in what way?
some of these budget proposals are going to eliminate the home mortgage deduction from the tax code, yet keep the tax deductions for jets and yachts for the wealthy. the tea-baggers complain that eliminating the jet and yacht deductions will hurt the workers building the jets and yachts. what they don't say is that many middle-class use the mortgage interest tax deduction for their RVs as a second home. eliminating this tax deduction will cripple the much larger RV industry that employs far more than the tiny jet and yacht business. it will also cripple the home construction industry that employs an even greater number of people, as well as forcing a large number of people out of their homes (like first-time buyers) that can afford their home now because of the decreased tax payments, but wouldn't be able to afford the house payments if they lose their home mortgage deduction. why is it that the tea-baggers don't mention this?
obviuosly they believe that it is important that the wealthy have their toys and the rest of the country can just go burn.
All of this problem with the budget is just beyond me. When things were heading south in 2008 the company I work for determined that a 20% reduction in costs were necessary to survive and that is what we did. Everyone took salary cuts and cut their respective department budgets 20%. Why can't we do this as a country? Find out what that magic number may be, because some things such as interest on our borrowing cannot be reduced immediately, but everything else is fair game and should be cut across the board. Whatever you spent in 2011, you will spend 20% less in 2012. Do not decide which programs get reduced and which do not, reduce them all by the same percentage.
Dear Anna,
I believe the Cut, Cap and Balance would add a balenced budget ammendment to the Constitution. The Ryan plan did no such thing as far as I'm aware of.
Please note that I will not pretend to have all of the answers unlike most of the "really smart" posters on the Vine would have you believe.
Iseeconfused,
I probably already know you answer to this but I will see if you surprise me.
How about passing the Fair Tax thereby eliminating all tax breaks and loopholes? Meanwhile simplifying the tax code so even I might be able to understand it. Then you won't have to decide who gets special tax treatment anymore solving your problem of trying to pick who wins and who looses.
Here is an alphabetical list of who in the Senate we can thank for putting their hi-jacked Republican Party above Country:
Tom Coburn-OK, Jim DeMint-SC, Lindsey Graham-SC, Orrin Hatch-UT,
Dean Heller-NV, Jim Inhofe-OK, Mike Lee-UT, Jerry Moran-KS, Rand Paul-KY,
Marco Rubio-FL, Pat Toomey-PA, and David Vitter-LA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And here, in alphabetical order with District #'s, are the NeoCon House members who put the Republican Party over Country:
Justin Amash-MI-3, Michele Bachmann-MN-6, Joe Barton-TX-6,
Dan Benishek-MI-1, Paul Broun-GA-10, Dan Burton-IN-5, Jason Chaffetz-UT-3,
Jeff Duncan-SC-3, Jeff Flake-AZ-6, Bill Flores-TX-17,Trent Franks-AZ-2,
Phil Gingrey-GA-11, Trey Gowdy-SC-4, Tom Graves-GA-9, Andy Harris-MD-1,
Tim Huelskamp-KS-1, Randy Hultgren-IL-14, Jim Jordan-OH-4,
Mike Kelly-PA-3, Steve King-IA-5, Raúl Labrador-ID-1, Jeff Landry-LA-3,
James Lankford-OK-5, Tom Latham-IA-4, Cynthia Lummis-WY,
Connie Mack-FL-14, Thomas Marino-PA-10, Thad McCotter-MI-11,
Jeff Miller-FL-1, Mick Mulvaney-SC-5, Ron Paul-TX-14, Dennis Ross-FL-12,
Jean Schmidt-OH-2, David Schweikert-AZ-5, Tim Scott-SC-1,
Steve Southerland-FL-2, Joe Walsh-IL-8, Allen West-FL-22, and
Joe Wilson-SC-2.
May we all thank them appropriately in 2012 where applicable.
BRING ON THE 2012 ELECTIONS!!!
Dear Anna,
I ask you. What is the Democrat plan put forward by Obama, the Democrats in the House or the Senate for deficit reduction? So far I am not aware of any plan in writing from that side of the isle. The Republicans have put forth a few differing plans and are being told no by the other Party of No. Would you suppose that it would be good to know the numbers before supporting said plan? Or do we really need to go down the road of, "We need to pass it so we will know what is in it." again?
As for now we the people and the media haw no idea what would be in a Democrat plan because there isn't one. Ad if for some reason the media really was on top of the ball and have details they are not reporting any. If that is the case I'm guessing they would really rather not have us know.
Iseeconfusedpeople: the burning down of America as we have it today appears to be the purpose of Grover Norquist and the Republican party. How else can you explain deciding to eliminate the full faith & credit of the United States ? The only problem that they have not realized is that in playing with fire, you can get burned.
Grover Norquist and the Tea Party will cause damage to the United States, but they will be the end of the GOP.
AnIndividual,
I think I might be offended. You did not include Mike Pompeo from Kansas on your little hit list. And to think I voted for him.
You sir should at least give me the satisfaction of knowing I voted for someone who offends you.
Good day!
Beats me. You're asking the wrong liberal. I'm no fan of Congress. But so far I've heard Simpson-Bowles (the debt commission recommendations), which apparently IS workable both as to revenue and spending, and the Gang of 6, which is apparently draconian, but which President Obama endorsed, although it apparently cannot work because of timing issues, which you have to wonder whether he knew when he endorsed it. I prefer to think not, but I'm not sure.
So I hear you about not wanting us to know what they're really up to.
For all we know, a large asteroid is hurtling at us, too. They wouldn't tell us that, either. The effect may be about the same.
Dear Anna,
Then I guess we agree on something at least.
Peace.
oops! did not include these US Senators:
Lamar Alexander-TN, Kelly Ayotte-NH, John Barrasso-WY, Roy Blunt-MO,
John Boozman-AR, Richard Burr-NC, C. Saxby Chambliss-GA, Dan Coats-IN,
and let me clarify: Bring on the 2012 Democratic Landslide!
Keep dreaming. Reality would probably scare you too much. :-P
You missed Manzullo from Illinois AnIndividual....he deserves at least the credit the others you listed above deserve for trying to save this country from crazy liberal spending.
Let's say the democrats had their supermajority back and could pass and debt plan they liked. Now, tell me how you plan to pay the interest in the $40 trillion in debt in 2021?
Who's putting their party in front of the country? Who is so worried about campaigning for reelection that he won't accept a short term measure? Who's budget this year is HIGHER than last years? Who refuses to cut spending for a high speed train, a zero emmissions coal mine, green initiatives, adding more departments to the government?
John B. - well that looks like a good start! Department of Education can go, as can the Fed, as can HUD, most of the foreign aid the State Dept doles out, the Dept of Health and Human Services won't be necessary after Obamacare goes away.
Now we're off to a good start on downsizing government and getting the deficits and debt under control.
Thanks for illustrating my point, Joe. The locoweed Tea drinkers don't want to "fix the budget", they want to fundamentally remake the nation.
John B.. the Tea drinkers don't want to remake the nation, they want to wipe it out and replace it with a fundamentalist christian theocracy. That is the reason some call them Teaalogins wanting to be Tealibans.
Nicely said, dirp...we're on the same page with this issue.
The Republican TEA drinkers remind me of what was called the Stanford Experiment where a group of people were given an opportunity to participate in a prison type experiment. The film version called The Experiment went a little deeper which resulted in a more sadistic outcome. The guinea pigs eventually abused their positions as ‘prison guards’. The end result was the ‘prisoners’ rebelled against the guards as well as the research team.
This is the same with the TEA Drinkers that have now turned against the Republican Leadership. Only with the TEA Drinkers they were already at each other’s throats long before they were tossed into the cage.
The Republican TEA Drinkers have waged war with everyone that does not think like themselves. In doing this, they have strangled the political process and their own party.
Well said, Louis. The GOP's strategy of not needing much of anyone beyond its "base" to win elections while working hard to turn off anyone else and discourage them from voting is entering its end game. To gin up the required level of outrage from "the base" the Conservative movement has needed to become continually more radical with each electoral cycle. Meanwhile the venom and negativity required to keep others from voting has been ratcheted up to insane levels. It's driven the need for massive amounts of money from the wealthy elites and resulted in the legalized bribery of Citizens United. Now Conservative Republicans have become so desperate to prevent people outside their "base" from voting that they've begun restricting the ability of people who aren't likely to vote as needed. This vicious cycle can only end one of two ways--the GOP self-immolates and reconstitutes as a more moderate party or they succeed in transforming the US into a fundamentally different nation as described by John A.
As California Tom so consistently points out--to vote.
LouisJ
The hatred you show for Tea Party members is sad. After all they are fellow Americans that are concerned with the way things are going just like you are. Rather than bash them why not engage in a constructive debate and find a middle ground? That is the problem with politics today, to many people telling the masses what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear! Use a little common sense and you will see that tax increases on the rich alone WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM! Tax increases across the board WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM! The only solution that will work is to shrink government, make substantial cuts, then make up the difference in tax increases. The democrats know this, the republicans know it, the Tea Party knows it, but none of them are saying it because it is an unpopular idea that the average citizen will pay more and get less. As long as congress remains polarized and the administration divisive, nothing meaningful will get done and the problem will continue to spiral out of control.
No need to shout. I hear you. I never said I hated the TEA Drinkers. I said they hate one another and everyone else. But I can only assume you are a TEA Drinker that is defending your group. And yes, it's a TAX solution to end the Bush Tax Cuts.
Former President Bill Clinton says that he would invoke the so-called constitutional option to raise the nation’s debt ceiling “without hesitation, and force the courts to stop me” in order to prevent a default, should Congress and the President fail to achieve agreement before the August 2 deadline.
Sharply criticizing Congressional Republicans in an exclusive Monday evening interview with The National Memo, Clinton said, “I think the Constitution is clear and I think this idea that the Congress gets to vote twice on whether to pay for [expenditures] it has appropriated is crazy.”
Lifting the debt ceiling “is necessary to pay for appropriations already made,” he added, “so you can’t say, ‘Well, we won the last election and we didn’t vote for some of that stuff, so we’re going to throw the whole country’s credit into arrears.”
Having faced down the Republican House leadership during two government shutdowns when he was president -- and having brought the country’s budget from the deep deficits left by Republican presidents to a projected surplus -- Clinton is unimpressed by the GOP’s sudden enthusiasm for balanced budgets. But he never considered invoking the Fourteenth Amendment -- which says “the validity of the US public debt shall not be questioned” – because the Republicans led by then-Speaker Newt Gingrich didn’t threaten to use the debt ceiling as a weapon in their budget struggles with him.
“The reason that raising the debt limit is so unpopular is that people think you’re voting to keep [increasing] deficit spending, instead of voting to honor obligations that were already incurred,” he said. “I think [the Gingrich Republicans] figured I’d be smart enough to explain to the American people that they were refusing to pay for the expenses they had voted for when Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush were president. And that would make ‘em look bad.”
Obama could offer precisely the same explanation in the present circumstances, where most of the current debt can be traced to the profligate military spending and tax cuts of the last Bush administration. Just as the nation’s debt had tripled or quadrupled between 1981 and 1993, in the dozen years of Republican rule before Clinton’s first inauguration, as he points out, so the second Bush administration plunged the budget from surplus to deep deficit before Obama spent one penny on economic stimulus or anything else.
http://www.nationalmemo.com/article/exclusive-former-president-bill-clinton-says-he-would-use-constitutional-option-raise-debt
___________________________________________________________
Well looks like Old Slick Willy is ready to play some old fashioned country hardball with you’ll Tea Party folks.
Say what you’ll will about Old Slick’s sexual peccadilloes he played a mean game of hardball in his day.
More telling in all this is even Old Newter wasn’t crazy enough to go where you’ll are going.
You’re fixing to take a fall that’s going to leave a mark and maybe a permanent scar.
Says the Man used to dealing with recalcitrant Congress’s.
Morning Floyd! ;o)
Ol' slick Willie would have taken Cantor, Boehner & McConnell out behind the wood shed by now, that's for sure...
Billy C. thinks he's still important. Isn't that just precious?
JoAnnaSmith1 thinks she's still important.
However, she's far from precious...
What's the matter honey?
You're right wing nut job talking points late AGAIN today? tsk tsk
IR,
Great Thanks
It's a good thing Billy isn't President anymore. It's a tragedy he ever was President.
Morning Betty
It's a good thing Billy isn't President anymore. It's a tragedy he ever was President
Yeh 26,000,000 jobs vs 2,000,000. We could use that kind of tragedy again.
how does a prez creat jobs? It is the private sector. Slick would be chasing tail while Congress flounders over a budget, the deficit, then he would drop a few bombs to divert attention from his bjs.
@Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL,
Thanks and keep up the fight against these draconian right wing tea bagger nut jobs who wants to see the United State lose all creditably in the world just to bring down a President.
What happen to Country first?
What happen to the oath you took as a congress person?
I know you signed another pledge and you trashed your constitutional pledge indicating it was no longer valid.
Nut jobs
Thanks for the shout out Cyd!
Country first has been replaced with CORPORATIONS first by the I got mine screw you crowd!
I will continue to point this out one post at a time! ;o)
The curtain been pulled back and the audience wants a REFUND!
IR----let's not forget the budget surplus that President Clinton left us with---you know, the one that Bush squandered.
Cyd you have it all wrong. We are already devoid of credibility. What don't you understand? All the touchy feely PC of the liberals has made us the punching bag and bitch boy around the world. WE no longer have the stature we once had when we were strong, wouldn't put up with any BS from anyone, and were feared. Now, we give money to those that put it in their pockets and laugh that we are so dumb. They play along with whatever the hell it is that Obama and the Dems are trying to achieve worldwide and stab us in the back at the first opportunity. (Pakistan ring a bell). The rest of the world does not have the one world order mentality that this administration seems to want. "Everybody get together try to love one another" does not work. Just like illegal immigration. There is no longer assimilation when people get here. They gather in their little pockets and live the culture that they left only on our soil with our benefits. Diversity does not work yet we insist on being everyone's parents. I remember the infamous Trump Vegas speech. That is what we need to get back to. We need to return to the times of the world KNOWING they cannot push the USA.
Great point, IR. One of the things that is repeatedly ignored in the Conservative messaging on this issue that the debt ceiling has nearly always been treated as routine business...it's a necessary detail in order to pay for spending Congress has ALREADY committed to. That's why it's a DEFAULT.
Here's a solution sure to please the TEA/GOP and some DEMS too. Raise the age for Social Security to 90 for every body.
When it comes time for those who live long enough to collect after. they have paid into it forever, let
them die out because they can't get Medicare, turn them into Solent Green to feed the poor, that will
end food stamps, then keep ALL the money they have paid into Social Security to pay Americas Debts. The RICH cronies get to never pay their share of taxes.
Problem Solved!
Slick Willie wouldn't take anyone behimd the wood shed that wasn't under 20 years old ,female,and dumber than a mule track...well maybe a red head..
Let me see if I've got this right. We have a black republican congressman, and a white woman congresswoman, both from Florida, they are having debate on the floor, the democratic congresswoman, Ms. Schulz, says what she wishes , and when congressman West rebuts, now it's sexismn? I've heard some of Wasserman-Schultzs comments on the house floor, and beleive me, she is no lady, much less an honorable congresswoman. Rep. West defends his principles, and stands up to this brash woman, now he's a sexest? Rep. West, in my humble opinion is an honorable man of principle, and a former military officer that was tested in combat and deserves our respect. If Wasserman-Schultz can't stand the heat, she needs to get out of the kitchen. We know what her ambitions are.
Yak:
Sigh. Once again, this begs the question of why Congressman West wasn't able to take the heat. Since Wasserman-Schultz allegedly started it, HE should have been the adult in the room, right?
No? Why not?
Go back and actually read what they both said. I think you'll be ashamed of your comment. There's no question -- and I'm usually pretty fair about these things -- that what Wasserman-Schultz said was not inflammatory, and given that, what West said was over the top.
Oh, and maybe look at Feisty's post upthread about West's military service and the other inappropriate comments he's made and other misogynists that he's associated himself with. And then check out how he accused a fellow Congressman of Gestapo tactics merely for video-taping his public appearance comments.
If West is so "honorable," then why would he care about that? Don't make me laugh.
AM
Do you LOVE the 'kitchen' metaphor,...some day that will be as politically incorrect as calling someone 'boy', right?
We can dream, we can dream.
DWS said what she said after he left the room. She said what was on her mind and he his. GovCo is not a place of gender. Leave the sexist crap out of it. It is a position where all are supposedly equal. He calls 'em like he sees "em. If it hurts some touchy feely lib PC "position" then so be it. We have lost the ability to say exactly what we feel for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings and sugar coat everything for the sake of appearing "dignified" and intellectually superior when indeed we are all thinking quite a little differently than the point we are actually verbalizing. Exactly why you libs were just flabergasted when Trump verbalized in Vegas. Yak I stand with you.
Once again, Talk to the Hand, why is it that Wasserman-Schultz was just supposed to get over it, but West was not? Why was it okay for him to vent his spleen at her for making a pretty innocuous comment about him. It's all supposedly equal isn't it? What gave HIM the right to vent? We're supposed to praise HIM for calling it like he saw it, but HE didn't appreciate Wasserman-Schultz for calling it like SHE saw it, now did he?
So much for equality.
By the way, Wasserman-Schultz's comment only went to West's position on Medicare. It did not attack him personally in any way. West is the one who initiated the personal attack.
If it isn't about gender, then why did West used the term "not a lady" in his post, and then proceed to say Wasserman-Schultz did not deserve respect? What did that mean, do you think, if it didn't have to do with gender stereotypes?
You're so blinded by your own biases that you can't even see the hypocrisy in your statements.
By the way, Trump has never flabbergasted me, and neither do you. You're equally without a clue.
And, who was it, again, that took care of that buffoon?
Oh, yeah ... that liberal guy ... you know ... what's his name, again? LoL
Atlantis: Requiem for a Country?
The space shuttle has flown and landed for the very last time. One of the more mesmerizing symbols of American technological prowess and determination is gone forever. My favorite missions were the ones to repair and upgrade the Hubble Space Telescope. Good grief, what a spectacular display of precision and skill that captivated the whole freaking world. But no more of that, those days are over. And today, I'm curious if some folks see that as a metaphor for the broader issue of an America in decline.
What the debt ceiling debate is all about is taking some big initial steps to staunch this decline. That's why Tea Party Republicans in the House have dug in their heels on this issue. From their perspective, nothing is more important than taking a strong stand NOW to push the ship of state back onto a more sustainable fiscal course. The left doesn't see it quite that way. Their emphasis is on preserving the welfare state, a cause fraught with grand nobility in their view. Unfortunately, it's that very welfare state that is largely responsible for pushing us into decline in the first place.
There's not a heck of a lot of middle ground between these opposing views. I've posted previously why "compromise" on the debt issue is a loser, and won't revisit that here. But if anyone has been paying attention to what Nancy Pelosi has been saying, it's pretty clear that "compromise" is a loser from her perspective as well. So we're at loggerheads, and while the Gang of 6 proposal may hold some promise, it's not at all clear that plan will garner enough support to carry the day.
And this inability to "compromise" is another characteristic of our decline. But the issue is not so much a lack of good will on either side to come to some middle ground, the issue is folks standing up for what they believe in and recognizing that ceding any ground is tantamount to betraying their deeply held principles. Thus Cantor says more taxes are a non-starter and Pelosi says she will not accept reductions in entitlements, and the middle ground evaporates.
The only way out of this that makes sense to me would be if one side plays bigtime hardball and uses its power to force the outcome in a particular direction. Right now, it looks like House Tea Party Republicans have that power – and they are not averse to using it. So the prospects of the debt ceiling not being raised are real and become more real with each passing day. I'm a little concerned that some of those folks are a bit too sanguine about the impact that will have on the country and even the world. While I've never bought off on the economic Armageddon scenario, I recognize there will be some pain – to include furloughs for a ton of government workers and the private sector contractors that support them as a massive government shutdown is implemented.
But there is pain in our future no matter how this debt ceiling debate ultimately unfolds. The question is do we want to endure some short term pain today in order to accomplish the goal of arresting our fiscal decline and putting us back on a better path. Or, do we want to wait until some future time when world financial markets will vote no confidence in the U.S. and impose a solution that would be an order of magnitude worse than what we would experience today. The calculation Tea Party Republicans are making is let's do it now while we can still exert some measure of control over the medicine we'll be taking. And I fully agree with that point of view.
The magnificent sight of watching a space shuttle launch is now in our rear view mirror. Whether that becomes a metaphor for the best days of America is yet to be determined. The endgame of the debt ceiling debate will go a long way towards making that determination.
From space shuttles to trains, from nuclear power to windmills, Obama is leading us back to the 19th century.
Yes, in fact, I do. I always have. If you think about it, space exploration was THE last big vision that this country has shared -- the last shared vision, and the last shared purpose.
The last thing that really united us as a country.
In recent years, we have shown total inability to unite behind any shared purpose -- whether that be public education, health care, protecting the environment, or even creating infrastructure projects that would benefit ALL of us. If you tried to get the interstate highway system built today, you would have big trouble.
By contrast to spaceflight and the other things I mentioned above, debt and taxes never really have been a political agenda, although they have been sold that way for about 30 years now by those who benefit from that most, and from those who really don't care about shared purpose.
Taxes are, at best, the means to an agenda. A debate that is just about taxes, without reference to purpose, is, inevitably, a debate that brings out the most selfish in all of us.
The only way we make progress as a nation is by first establishing what our true priorities are, whether it be space exploration, providing health care for everyone, or having the best educational system in the world.
Then and only then, when we have common purposes, can we have any REAL debate about spending, about debt, and about taxes. All the rest is just for show, and just for greed.
And that, in a nutshell, is why we are drifting. It's that "vision thing," as George H.W. Bush might have said.
He wasn't kidding. We lack vision. We lack purpose. And all these debates about means don't mean a thing if we don't have a purpose.
Think about that, Bill. Think about it hard.
Actually, The Republicans Tea Baggers are leading us back.
Well written AM. I watched this morning as the Shuttle landed. It still gives me Goosebumps. Then after a very short pity party for the ending of this program, I wondered what woud be next.
That is where my faith will continue to lie. There will be a next. I believe that. Don't know what and don't know when, but it will come. There is too much out there in this world that we all want to understand better.
We, as a country, do lack vision today. Short term gratification, like making sure one gets re-elected on both sides. It will come in time, it is always darkest before the dawn and I think I need to turn my porch light on.
That was sort of my point, too, Job1, although I didn't want to say so directly.
If we lack purpose, it's because conservatives block any attempt to create a shared purpose. That doesn't serve their real agenda, which is not about shared purpose AT ALL.
Exactly, White Collar. Exactly.
Please....... What the hell are you people talking about! Next your going to be saying that the conservatives are responsible for bubonic plague's return! Or that the conserv's killed the teenaged mutant turtles! Do you guys have your own version of the magic underwear you pass around, Feisty get it one week then on to navybouy. The poor FedEx guys getting tired and one of you has to wash them at some point.
Really? If you plan to hang this on conservatives, you better have some data to back it up.
Still waiting on your response to the "4 GOP leaders that will not vote to raise the debt ceiling". Who are these 4 GOP leaders, and when did they say they would not vote to raise the debt ceiling?
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that if you suggest "The Next Big Thing" the automatic reaction by some will be, "How much does it cost?"
Either that or, "Why does the government have to do this? Can't private enterprise do it?"
JFK set the goal of going to the moon not because it was easy but because it was hard. Sad...we no longer set long term goals as a nation.
Complete and total bull$hit. There can be no shared purpose without the political and popular will to support same. So if we live in country where we have no such purpose, the finger of blame must be pointed at lots of folks in both parties and not just your convenient whipping boy of evil greedsters. Furthermore, there can be no shared purpose without the means to finance it. Indeed, there can be no viable US of A going forward without addressing that problem – a very REAL problem by the way, and not just a plank in some political agenda as you dismissively put it.
So I read your piece AM, and thought about it. Thought about hard. Now why don't you return the favor and take a closer look at what I had to say. Then think about it. Think about it hard.
Well AM, you lost me a bit with the whole conservatives are taking us over a cliff schtick. Plenty of blame to go around. Starting at the top.
You've seen the numbers, surely you don't think this kind of spending/borrowing is sustainable?
And oh yeah, Unemployment numbers were, wait for it.....Higher than expected this week. The people that ought to be unemployed are the ones that week after week, underestimate how bad things are getting.
Bill Fairfax:
Huh? Why are you donning sackcloth and ashes over the demise of a government program, which by conservative definition would be better run by the private sector? Conservatives don't seem terribly interested in the science that NASA does and downright despise NASA science if it conflicts with their beliefs, like the alarming data on global warming collected by NASA earth satellites. The only conservative motive to support NASA seems to be a jingoistic desire to see the United States plant its flag on other planets before the Chinese or Russians do. Those flag-planting ceremonies may be a bit too pricey considering the state the economy is in.
BTW: I agree with you on one thing: the shuttle missions to repair the Hubble telescope were the best use of manned spaceflight since Apollo. However, space scientists like the late Carl Sagan consider the money for the shuttle program would have been better spent on NASA's robot probes, which can go places no human can go.
JoAnnaSmith1: going back to the 19th century is exactly where the Republican party wants to put America. To the time before women could vote. When blacks (Negros then) were slaves. When asians, mexicans, Italians, Irish, and anyone who was not a White, Anglo Saxon Protestant (WASP) MALE were treated as slaves. When there was no minimum wage, no controls over banking or industry. That is exactly where the Republican party wants this country.
Do you have male children? IMHO, if the Republican party is not removed fromcontrol of the House in the next election, expect the draft to be reinstated. I have no doubt the Republican party will find another war. This one will be so extensive that they will not be able to fight it with mercenaries. While a mercanary war can be very profitable to some companies (Halliburton, Xe, etc.,) the mercs. usually don't finish what is started. We have also learned that in utilizing out of control private companies, we usually upset the rest of the world.
Who do you think you are, JoAnna? Get off your authoritarian high horse, and don't tell me what I'd "better" have.
Besides, what data proves a negative? But if you insist, then start with Ronald Reagan and the space program. It was Reagan who first insisted that the space shuttle didn't have any value unless it could be used for commercial purposes. PRIVATE commercial purposes, not public purposes.
After that, why don't YOU, if you're so smart, name ONE common vision for this country that conservatives have tried to forward. Everything they do, and that includes you, JoAnna, is specifically intended to drive wedges through commonality and divide us against each other.
Conservative thinking ended the manned spaceflight program. Conservatives in Congress oppose spending money on fixing infrastructure. Conservatives oppose spending money for cancer research. Conservatives oppose efforts to understand and come to grips with climate change. Conservatives want to rip up public education and replace it with a fragmented system of unaccountable private schools. Conservatives want to keep health care in the hands of private interests instead of making it readily available for everyone. Conservatives want to take away the social safety net for the poor, the elderly, and the disabled.
Conservative thinking IS responsible for our lack of common vision and common purpose. And I don't need data to prove that.
Just look around you and see what your way of thinking has wrought.
you're right, AM, we don't share Obama's purpose.
We object to the outrageous spending. Object to billions for faster choo choo trains to nowhere- that will result in ever increasing costs to maintain routes no one uses. We object to his giving over a trillion of borrowed tax dollars to two of his major donors for electric cars that will cost so much he built in a $7500 tax rebate just for them. We object to his giving half a trillion to a donor to build wind turbines-in China- for a wind farm he owns in Texas.
We object to paying millions for his and the wife's lavish vacations. We object to his trashing the Constitution to engage in a "non-hostile, kinetic military operation" in Libya- only to leave for Rio the same day.
We object to all the Obama drama- a stimulous bill that had to be passed right now- today- there is no time to waste- only to have him wait three days so he could fly off to Colorado to sign it. The drama of the HCR- rammed down the throats of an unwilling electorate that wants it repealed.
We object to his turning virtually EVERYTHING into a crisis. Tell me, why did he wait so long to notice that the debt ceiling was upcoming? Too busy fundraising?
Then there are the sideshows- the Beer Summit, the flight to Copenhagen on a failed mission to grab the Olympics for Chicago, speaking
through another country's national anthem because he thought they were playing background music for his<
golden words. .. .
And the general atmosphere in D.C. Is there no one else appalled by the screeching from the left that an African American man had the temerity to speak back to a white woman?
If the common purpose yup seek is to drag this country back to the 19th century, where such was accepted, I'll pass.
You'll excuse me, Bill, but this is exactly what I'm talking about -- and why your way of thinking is horses'-a@@ backwards.
FIRST you get the vision -- you decide what you want to do, and THEN and only then do you worry about how to pay for it. You don't worry first about how much you want to pay and then willy-nilly destroy everything to make your bottom line come out.
Because then you will, as conservatives are doing right now, leave everything in pieces. Just look around you.
What EXACTLY has conservative thinking BUILT in the past 30 years except monuments to itself?
It's pretty easy to see what it has destroyed.
And if you really want to be taken seriously, stop talking to people in that rude, condescending, and disrespectful way that you're known for around here. Try a little introspection, for a change.
dirp101:
Dirp!! [Stands and applauds] - This might be the best lefty-rant ever!!
Congrats!!
On the reinstatement of the draft, here's something for your reading pleasure from one of the drafts leading advocates:
http://www.house.gov/list/press/ny15_rangel/CBRStatementonDraft02142006.html
Enjoy!
White Collar:
You've seen the numbers, surely you don't think this kind of spending/borrowing is sustainable?
Please try thinking past the end of the week, White Collar. As you will recall, "This kind of spending/borrowing" only began because of the failed CONSERVATIVE policies of the last administration and was born from necessity. We managed quite well until then, and we got the interstates built, the dams built, and landed on the moon.
Riddle me this: Exactly what "common" purpose have we pursued since Ronald Reagan made everyone begin worrying so much about our taxes?
Keep thinking like like you do, continue to starve the beast, and we are headed straight for disaster.
Don't blame it on unions, don't blame it on public workers. Blame it on the warped thinking and the values that destroyed these things, turned us against each other, and thereby destroyed our commonality.
Good grief AM, your kool-aid cup runneth over today. What happened to the left's insistence on supporting positions on this board with FACTS?
You don't have it, do you?
You made the claim sister, you back it up.
Looks like a lot of people are calling you out on this one Annie. You've stepped in it big time, again.
Also, still waiting on the "4 GOP leaders in the house and Senate" that you claim will not vote for raising the debt ceiling. Names? Quotes? Anything?
Are you serious, no joe? If so, you're a disgrace to women, everywhere. What does the fact that West is black have to do with this? This is the kind of tactic that I've heard about out here but never had turned on me before.
It doesn't wash. I'm usually the only one out here defending conservative women, such as Sarah Palin, when they are attacked for no good reason by sexist men, like David Letterman and Bill Maher.
So knock it off.
Again, are you kidding? YOURS is the side that wants to drag us back into the 19th century where workers had no protections against oppression, where there were no environmental rules or safety rules that protected miners against dying horrible deaths, where there were no rules about food safety (read THE JUNGLE), where J.P. Morgan made $500 million a year while the average worker made $500, where the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire occurred ...
... and where women couldn't vote.
Or do you have some idea that winning women's right to vote was somehow a CONSERVATIVE movement?
Sure, and to most of whom I give no credence, you being first among them. Again.
Why are you always the first one to attack me, JoAnna?
Besides, Bill more or less proved my point for me.
Everything I DID cite was a fact. Show me ONE thing I stated that was wrong.
I was wondering the same thing, Houston. There is no room for big ideas like the space program in Grover Norquist's bathtub. The fact of the matter is that if we had to rely on Conservatives there would have been no Louisiana Purchase, no Erie Canal, no Panama Canal, no rural electrification, no flood protection, no space program...the list is endless.
"And if you really want to be taken seriously, stop talking to people in that rude, condescending, and disrespectful way that you're known for around here. Try a little introspection, for a change."
Ummm, take a look at your own posts dearie. You might try a little introspection yourself -- but only if you want to be taken seriously around here.
AM, your post at 4.15 summed up exactly what is wrong with this administration.
Obama gets a vision- HCR! Shovel ready jobs! Bombing Libya! Then, he sets his minions to massaging the numbers to show it really does not cost that much.
Four trillion dollars added to the debt later, we wind up with a debt crisis. Oh, and don't forget unemployment, which would be at 12% if the same number of people were in the labor force today as were in the labor force just two years ago.
I believe I mentioned massaging numbers already.
When Clinton pushed Fannie Mae to loosen lending standards so that folks with less than stellar credit qualified for home loans, he had the best of intentions. It was a twofer- folks got homes, and home construction jumped- with its major multiplier. Everybody wins!
Bush grabbed that brass ring, too. Neither took into consideration the speculators, who thought they could get rich quick on real estate with no skin in the game. Just buy and flip!
Of course, once the bubble burst, there was no reason not to default- they had nothing much to lose, after all. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of suckers stuck with houses for which they paid vastly over their real value, and a lot of long term homeowners watching their house values decline. Obama had a "vision" for that, too. He slowed down the foreclosure process, thus dragging out the crisis.
In fact, I cannot think of a single domestic problem Obama has not made worse, including political polarization. Well, maybe one- he single handedly resurrected the republican party by ram king his "vision" down the throats of an unwilling public.
Somehow, I do not think that was his intention.
Asking you to back up your wild claims isn't an attack AM. If you can't back them up, then just say so.
And we're not going to get any background information of your claim that "4 GOP leaders in the House and Senate" will not vote to raise the debt ceiling, are we? Gee, I wonder why.
No sack cloth and ashes from me, but thanks for puting words in my mouth, a dissembling tactic so common with your kind. As for that private sector stuff, umm correct me if I'm wrong but Obama's current strategy is to encourage the private sector to take us inot low earth orbit in the future. Helluva idea, no?
One good thing that will come out of this budget mess is the Tea Baggers will be sent home with their tails between their legs come the 2012 elections.
Anna Molly..
I totally agree that there is no shared purpose in our bi-partisan political system today. Two (or 3) parties with 3 divergent political view points with no will to compromise and a country be damned attitude. Please, just don't say the GOP/TP. The democrats have been far from forthcoming with ideas that work. After the Stimulus, that did not meet all of its goals, they kinda just gave up. Nothing new from these folks in well over a year.
Boehner can't reign in the TP and Cantor has become the new GOP voice. Very, very sad. Reid has been totally ineffective, no plan and no ideas and most importantly, there is a very distinct lack of leadership by BOTH parties in Congress and mixed signals at best from the WH.
It's one thing to point out what's wrong and who is responsible and another to say, this is how we fix it, long-term and forever. I haven't heard it from either party. The Ryan proposal was so severe that even the GOP backed off it. The Gang of Six proposal, which was widely embraced by the President and the Senate is LOSING support in the House. When the Speaker and the Leader of the Majority can't agree then there's a power struggle and Cantor is winning.....God help us all.
There is no vision but rather a division that reigns supreme.
Anna Molly, to me the last galvanizing event in this country was 9/11. For a few brief weeks, we were reminded that we were ALL Americans. Took 10 years to get the First Responders the healthcare benefits the needed which resulted from inhaling concrete, glass and god knows what on their 2 years on the pile. Ten years of haggling for the men that risked their lives. Same for the service people that come home and we thank them for their service and then forget about them. No job retraining to provide job reentry skills, no help for PTSD or for TMI and continuing rehab for amputations and traumatic injuries, and alcohol and drug related problems. No housing with counselors t try to salvage these heroes. That's 250,000 vets homeless, living on the streets, begging for food and treatment. Yep, than you for your service and take care. No money available for that sort of care...
No vision or leadership on both sides and it just perpetuates the worst of America.
We are better than this and we need to prove it......very, very soon.
JoAnna -- the hypocrisy of this astounds me. You're criticizing me for not backing up a claim with facts, which I did, and how you're engaging in a flat-out lie, and repeating it, over and over and over again. Gee, I wonder why.
I NEVER said what you're attributing to me. All I said is that the four Republican leaders of the House and the Senate collectively voted at least 20 times to raise the debt ceiling under George W. Bush, which is demonstrably true. I never made a comment about what they WILL do here. They're all so crazy, I have no idea.
Seriously, Bill? By you? Never gonna happen. Everything I said was just "complete and total bull$hit", remember?
What a great conversation starter, Bill. I'll bet you're a hoot at a party.
dirp101 - Congratulations! For once you left ole JAS1 speechless w/o a snarky comeback. Great Job and Great Post. One of the best I've read lately and so spot on.
JAS1 - Let's see you address that one honey...point for point. Let's hear your response. I'll bet it's a doozy and I know it will be so full of truthful facts as well. I can hardly wait for your entertaining diatribe.
To Ira, in particular, and to all the others who have spoken sense here ~ THANK YOU.
It is indeed scary to think that the only thing that ever unites us any more, even briefly, is a great national tragedy.
I cannot tell a lie: I am. Thanks for noticing.
Annie, please.
Here's your post:
"four top Republicans in the House and Senate, who oppose raising the debt ceiling now,"
Care to name them? Care to state why you believe them to oppose "raising the debt ceiling now"?
laurie: thank you.
JAS1: I looked at your link, and found it interesting. Back in 2006 even Charles Rangle realized that our military could not handle an additional war. 2006, when the economy was still alive (at least on paper) and most people still thought America was great. I do fear any new Republican takeover of the entire government. I truly do believe they will take actions which will put us into a sustained war which will require a draft.
I have children, I have advised them against joining the military. They have cousins who were "weekend warriors" in order to pay for college. Those "weekends" turned into 2 1/2 years baking in the middle-eastern sun, eating sand and in one case, recovering from shrapnel wounds.
The total destruction of the middle class, the abandonement of our responsiblity to the less fortunate and the simultaneous engorgement of the wealthy is not an acceptable proposition for America. The Republican party must never be allowed to have any kind of control, EVER again.
Here is one explanation for the hysterics from the left today
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/07/21/obama_2012_will_be_referendum_on_me.html
Yeah, Obama, you finally got one thing right- it will be a referendum on your stewardship.
When every poll shows that 60 to 70% think the country is headed in the wring direction, I'm wondering if the mother in law will vote for you.
Oh, and AM- I told you yesterday that I thought they were both wrong. I did not see the sexism in West's email, nor did I see racism in Wasserman Schultz calling him out after he had left the chamber.
I am objecting to the shrieking from the left- the barely concealed racism that an African American dare both to be a republican, and speak back to a white woman.
That this kerfuffle has revealed that is not my fault. That I have labeled it correctly is uncomfortable for some- who would rather have their true feelings hidden, rather than exposed.
Sunlight, I believe, is one heck of a disinfectant.
dirp101:
Thank you for your well thought out opinion.
That is quite a bit of pessimism. And I don't think anyone is attempting to do such things. The entitlement programs are bankrupting the country. Ignoring that problem further causes the continued deterioratation of those programs. There is no doubt that the entitlements need to be reformed. The GOP has made many proposals to do so, you may not agree with them, but they are proposals. The Democrats also need to step up and be players in that reform. Not doing so will cause even more harm to theses programs and those that depend on them.
Bill, Fairfax VA
For someone who dissembles as much as you do, you ought to look up what the word means. I was just poking some fun at your dismay at the end of the Big Government program known as NASA. That's obviously what got your knickers a twist.
Oh, you noticed, huh? You support the Big Government program known as NASA while the president conservatives attack routinely as a "socialist" is trying to privatize some of what NASA has done for the past 50 years. The world turned upside down!
Bill, Fairfax VA -
Though it is sad to see the final shuttle landing (and what a landing, in the dark, awesome!) I would rather look at the end of the STS program as a new beginning rather than analogy for a nation in decline. The Shuttles were wonderful machines, but in truth almost obsolete the day the program had its first launch. The promise of frequent and cheap spaceflight, $100 a pound payloads, never materialized and aside from some spectacular missions (the Hubble rescue is one of the greatest space missions ever) the STS program fell far short of its original goals. The Shuttles were getting old and tired. It is time to retire them. The Russian Soyuz can support the ISS.
But does that mean the STS program was a failure? Absolutely not! One of the great benefits of the space program are advances in technology that reach far beyond the space program itself. NASA learned so much throughout the STS program that will be reflected in future projects. The Shuttle itself was the culminaton of research projects that started in the '50s with a series of space plane and "lifiting body" experiments (a fascinating, wonderful period of aviation history). The Shuttles themselves are a stepping stones to airplanes of the future. Their era is done, time to move on. NASA and private industries are working on some really cool stuff, I am stoked to see what comes out next.
It is impossible to put a value on the effects of national pride generated by great technological accomplishments, such as the STS. When people are proud of something the U.S. is doing does that not bring people together?
So, instead of a requiem for Atlantis and America how about an overture. The space program has been frought with difficulties, failures, and tragedy. Just like the United States itself and I do not think anyone would disagree were are in a contentious and difficult spot now. But the space program has demonstrated we can overcome adversity, impossible odds, and shine brightly.
Let's review .... You saw no sexism in West calling Wasserman-Schultz a variety of insulting names and then accusing her of being "not a lady" and therefore not worthy of respect, even though she had said nothing of similar tenor about him, but merely expressed disbelief at his position on Medicare.
I see. Thanks for the clarification, no joe. Res ipsa loquitur.
JoannaSmith1: thank you for your reply. I am pessimistic about what has been attempted by the Republican's in this year's Congress. Whether you want to look at the Paul Ryan budget, HR1 or many of the other plans, they do seem to point to a concerted effort to destroy what is left of the middle class and to leave the less fortunate on their own.
Whether it is dismantling the EPA or deciding that funding of college educations is no longer needed, this year's Republican majority in the house does seem to be attacking what many middle class families utilize to make life livable.
If the Republicans are not intent on destroying the middle class and it is just injured in the collateral damage from its lockstep adherance to a flawed philosophy of reducing taxes and government at all costs, then that is just a further indication that they should not be in a position to control any aspect of our government. Destuction of our way of life by intent is terrible, having that happen as a consequence of an unthinking and uncaring political philosophy is just plain ingnorant. Neither is acceptable.
Sure. They're Boehner, Cantor, McConnell, and Kyl. And the reason I believe they oppose raising the debt ceiling now is that it would take about twenty minutes to do it, but they insist on holding the country hostage for it for political reasons. The only reason I mentioned it in the first place is that President Obama has been accused of hypocrisy for his opposition to raising the debt ceiling in the past, and I wanted to point out that these individuals, who are holding the country hostage on debt ceiling now, as they never did under George W. Bush, even when they had control of both houses of Congress, are also hypocrites.
JoannnaSmith1: btw, thank you for a spirited debate. I appreciate the you not going into the "that's just stupid" or name calling.
I may not agree with the opinion you appear to espouse, but in putting forth ideas I hope we are able to come up with solutions to the some of the problems which our political leaders can use. I often send the thoughts to my representatives and I do know that they follow the debates that take place on the various forums, including this one.
My, now the tune changes. You have no proof that Boehner, Cantor, McConnell, and Kyl won't vote for the raising the debt ceiling, in fact each is on the record as saying they will vote for it. Even more bizarre, McConnell is working on a bill that would provide President Obama with the ability to raise the debt ceiling on his order, and not on Congresses legislation. So you're somehow derived this accusation of yours on what the GOP leaders will do based on how you feel, but not on anything related to any facts.
That certainly clears things up. Thank you for your honesty AM.
dirp101: You're welcome.
No tune has changed, JoAnna, but if this problem persists, I'll send you some Q-tips, if you like.
Aren't all beliefs just inferences from facts? I stated my belief that they are opposed to raising the debt ceiling because they are working so very hard to hold the country up over it, when it would be so very easy not to do so. It seems a legitimate inference, as we are still embroiled in this debate even though the rating agencies, like Moody's have already become jittery.
I suspect you must not believe in God, JoAnna, because I'm pretty certain you have no "proof" that God exists -- or doesn't exist, either, come to think of it. Tsk, tsk. What a quandary for you.
And now that you've satisfied your lust to call me a liar several times for what turns out to be nothing more than my merely stating my sincerely held belief, as defined by Bag Boy, and for which neither he nor any one else has lifted a finger to call you out, my only question before we end our discussions for good this time is this: If they're all on record as saying they will vote for it, and they're honest about that, then why aren't they willing to put just that intention into an earnest, and honest, resolution, get it done, and then go back to work in earnest on the other solutions you mention.
Ah. The importance of being earnest. Catch the fever.
Really? If the expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts does not break Grover's pledge then why they hell did the Teapublicans throw such a major tantrum at the prospect that refusing to extend tax cuts to the rich WAS, in fact, raising taxes? Can anybody answer this? Anybody?
...and are we really supposed to believe that in 2013 the Teapublicans will allow the Bush Tax Cuts to expire and Grover Norquist will let them do it?
If there was any doubt before this, let THIS be the final, indisputable proof...
....TEAPUBLICANS CAN NOT BE TRUSTED!!!
Yes. I. can. Pure. Political. Expediency. Not. To. Mention. Hypocrisy.
Hey AM, can Hypocrisy be a vision? Both sides seem to unite around that.
If it gets some real action on the environment, then I'm all for it. ;-)
Da Noid==I"m beginning to think Republicans/Tea Party pledge allegiance to Grover Norguist in stead of America.
Grover Nordquist can't be trusted either. Likely we'll be hearing a flip flop in the near future; either that or old Grover realizes he's losing his grip--the rich are bailing out on him and saying taxes should increase.
Anyone willing to put $100 on Grover maintaining that same position when the Bush tax cuts come up for renewal?
How 'bout a ten spot?
A plug nickel?
Oh, boy- another straw man/villain.
Grover Norquist? What happened, the Koch Brothers run out of gas?
You should listen to Obama- he gets that 2012 is going to be a referendum on HIM. Any day now, he is going to realize that he is going to lose- big time.
Apparently some don't know the meaning of straw man, a purely hypothetical position created simply to misrepresent the position of the opposition. Grover Norquist is very real and has been all over the media making clear what his position is on the "no tax increase" pledge signed by nearly every Republican politician. As one of Washington's premier power brokers he's VERY germane to this conversation and has enriched himself mightily as a faithful tool of the wealthy elites.
Speaking of which, the Koch brothers are alive and well. Expect to hear more from them soon in another ALEC expose.
Note the slash, John. The left uses both straw men AND vilification to promote fear and then uses that fear to promote positions that are otherwise untenable.
As you well know.
Do carry on. Even Obama knows the next election is going to be a referendum on him. Straw men, villains, and the like notwithstanding.
Not a debatable proposition? Then whyfor do we need the 25th Amendment?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
First Thoughts wrote:
You guys never cease to make me laugh with these pop culture references!!! LOL!! This is probably as much press as Rob Base and DJ E-Z Rock have gotten in a long while! Thanks for throwing that in there.
On the politics front...it is good to see the President and the top Republicans in Congress negotiating. That's where a deal is going to have to come from I think.
As for Michelle Bachmann...I reiterate, she will NOT be our nominee. People will realize that she cannot possibly win the general election and I think electability will become the most important candidate attribute. That being said, I think this migraine talk is ridiculous and really once the doctors say it isn't an issue, it should be off the table.
The other day thetotas asked me about a possible Rick Perry / Marco Rubio ticket. Rubio is my Senator and I must admit that I have been happy with him thus far. I think it might be a little premature to have him on the ticket as a VP candidate in 2012, but I think in 2016, he'd probably be ready. As for Rick Perry, I can't say I know a whole lot about him, but my fear would be this. The GOP nominating another Texas governor would instantly draw comparisons to former President Bush. Not sure we'd want that considering the approval ratings he left office with. I'd have to get to know more about him and his positions.
Happy Thursday all!!
Frank:
Do you know that Perry is going to have a big prayer meeting in Reliant Stadium on August 6? He proudly listed among his endorsers John Hagee, a preacher who says the Pope is the Anti Christ, another Preacher who thinks Oprah Winfrey is the handmaiden of the said Anti-Christ, and various other assorted nuts.
One indication that Perry is getting serious about running for president is that he moved his list of endorsers from a prominent position on the prayer meeting web page to an obscure location on the web site FAQ. Perry has a chance to win because of his "pro-business" reputation that the media are hyping while ignoring Texas' huge budget deficit. But if Perry wins, I think people really would prefer the Texan who was formerly President of the United States to this one.
Frank, but it is funny to watch them giggle and act like little children over here! The guys that are going to beat them are not even in the picture yet! When Im feeling over whelmed with my global responsibilities, I come here for FR to get some levity and humor injected into my day! I know of no other place where these types of people hang out! Honestly I never hear any one voicing liberal opinions in any of my travels. In my neighborhood where I am about the only white guy, the rest of my neighbors talk about Mr Obama but not as a liberal or as a politician. They talk of him as in what he is going to do to make their lives easier. I.E. The next stimulus payment.
Take all the lemming Repugnacants, ship them to Texas, and let them all secede from this once great nation. They deserve themselves!
Grimey---thanks for explaining the hip reference to those of us who missed it!!
Frank, I would suggest you learn more about Perry. MSNBC had an article from 7/17 originally an AP piece called "Perry's credentials as conservative as they come."
He is against direct election of Senators, has called social security a disease called the New deal programs a march to socialism.
He doesn't believe in global warming or evolution. He has fought the EPA and federal air quality regulations for the oil industry and burdgeoning natural gas (fracking) industry. He even is so against federal regulations that he passed a symbolic law that Texas companies can manufacture incandescent bulbs after the 2012 deadline on their continued manufacture begins nationally.
I made a point to follow this legislative session very closely and have posted on here many times about it. I know that due to budget cuts there are many people whose kids have lost thier skip - state kids insurance program.
In our state budget crisis with massive education shorfalls and teacher layoffs he called a special session of the legislature not to compromise on providing more funding but to mandate that women receive a sonagram and listen for a heartbeat prior to every abortion. He supported a bill to allow for the enforcement of federal immigration laws by local police.
There is that whole musing about secession. He is too extreme for the country.
Since I'm from Texas don't follow Rubio. I only know what the national press says. I know Rubio voiced support about supporting the Libyan action is against ending the Cuban embargo and against a state for Palestinians. Care to enlighten me.
jollyoldsoul1----I guess it all depends on where you live and where you travel to.
Are you putting your opinion into the statement "they" make regarding making their life easier. Couldn't that mean giving them access to healthcare, or perhaps bettering the education system. What makes you think that they are referring to the next stimulus?
And by the way how did the stimulus help these people that you are referring to? Since most of the money was used by states to prop up their budgets along with business tax cuts how would another one help "these" people?
You sound kind of racist to me. Why did you feel the need to mention that at all?
xxx
Frustration Station. I've watched politics for too many years to count. Over the past 30 years, Congress and the country have increasingly become more divided, more partisan but never have I seen a Congress as dysfunctional and incapable of doing what is right despite political beliefs. Democracy cannot survive this kind of paralysis. Compromise was how this country was founded. Yet we have one side completely unwilling to even say the word, let alone actually consider its meaning.
The House GOPTP is in denial. The Tea-publicans do not believe anything bad will happen to the country if the debt ceiling is not raised--it fact, they appear almost gleeful at the idea of the USA defaulting. Remember the Government Shutdown mentality--"Shut it Down, shut it down". It is time for Speaker Boehner to lead instead of allowing the TPers to lead him down the rabbit hole of disaster. The TP lives in their ultra-pure, ideological world and as David Brooks said, they are the "Gods of the New Dawn". They clearly are not capable of reasoning let alone governing. The money has been spent and most of it by previous administrations. We cannot "cut" our way to solving the deficit and the debt yet they claim it's all about spending. Clueless and incompetent--they do not earn nor do they deserve their taxpayer funded paychecks.
Jody, Iowa:
I generally agree with you posts down the line, but this time I think you are wrong. You wrote, "The House GOPTP is in denial."
There comes a point, when you have to look to other explanations for the self-destructive behavior we see so clearly in the right-wing. It is not denial. You must be in possession of facts to deny them. These people do not have facts and that is the reason they are not conflicted by clear evidence that they espouse false dogma. The reason they do not accept facts is because they do not understand them. They summarily dismiss this information. That is of no moment. What value does something have if you don't understand it?
The explanation for their behavior is simple, if difficult to admit. They really are stupid. A standard bell curve supports that explanation. Half the population is smarter than the other half. That's just the way it is. A party that denigrates the sciences, the arts, learning, education, and the like provides a home for the mentally-challenged. That's the G.O.P. and the very vocal and very stupid have drowned out reason and chased away moderates.
Such is the power of stupid.
What a pompous individual you are!
David Walker. Hey, agree to disagree but in my view, the TPers are in denial because they refuse to listen to the facts they have been given. When they laugh a republican economist trying to explain the ramifications of default out of the room, they are living in denial rather than accept reality.
Yes, you are jollyoldsoul1!
Jody, If a man were to use your facts as a basis for a frontal assault in combat! The entire unit would surely die!
I think both are true, actually. I believe there are those who want to effectively destroy the ability of the government to do almost anything. Their dedication to the cause leads them to tell whatever lies are necessary to sell the policy. I think there's a larger group willing to believe those lies. They may be may be a more dangerous force because they value ideological purity so much.
Either way they're an amazing testament to the power of mass stupidity.
Spot on!
Why are liberals so condescending?
Every political community includes some members who insist that their side has all the answers and that their adversaries are idiots. But American liberals, to a degree far surpassing conservatives, appear committed to the proposition that their views are correct, self-evident, and based on fact and reason, while conservative positions are not just wrong but illegitimate, ideological and unworthy of serious consideration. Indeed, all the appeals to bipartisanship notwithstanding, President Obama and other leading liberal voices have joined in a chorus of intellectual condescension.
This condescension is part of a liberal tradition that for generations has impoverished American debates over the economy, society and the functions of government -- and threatens to do so again today, when dialogue would be more valuable than ever.
Gerard Alexander - Washington Post
I will be sitting on the bench today with a sick child and traveling tomorrow.
Ya'll play nice if ya can . . . if not, at least bring your A games! ;o)
*hugs* to the little one Nash!
Hope she didn't OD on the *popcorn* - it wasn't THAT salty! ;o)
So far the Teapulicans have sent in their bench warmers... lol
Fiesty - I am waiting for a response to mine above. Still thinking???
Feisty to continue our discussion from yesterday from which I am still waiting for a response from you.
You had asked for ONE example of something Obama proposed that the Republicans supported. I suggested the extension of the Bush tax cuts. You rejected this and said that Obama did not propose these but was forced into them by the big bad Republicans.
I then posted - Since you refuse to accept that your guy signed the bill retaining the previously named Bush tax cuts indicating his agreement with them or was he too weak to fight them even with the tremendous public support you claim was behind him, and since you or any Democrat by the way, weren't in any of the discussions that would prove it wasn't part of his proposal to the Republicans, how about taking on the Obama Afghanistan surge?? Didn't he propose that at West Point and wasn't it supported and passed by the Republicans??
Source: Associated Press
WASHINGTON - Months behind schedule and stripped of money for domestic stimulus programs, legislation to fund the troop surge in Afghanistan was sent to President Barack Obama on Tuesday after disgruntled Democrats failed to block it.
Democratic leaders had to rely on Republican support to pass the almost $59 billion measure to fund Obama's additional 30,000 troops in Afghanistan and other programs. The final vote was 308-114. Twelve Republicans and 102 Democrats opposed it.
If I understand your original concept correctly – you and all your pals agree with Carney that a leader should not put out a plan that the opposition won’t support. How is he supposed to lead?? Is he only to preach to the choir?? Is he not capable of convincing the “non-believers” that his way is correct? Won’t the liberal press support him and tell everybody that the president’s plan is great and wonderful?? Won’t sycophants like you, Navy, Bev and all of the rest of your Dew Drop Inn crowd tell him how great he is and try to convince others on this blog like me how wrong they are not to support his plan??? When he was running for president he had a plan for everything and everyone, I might have even thought one of them was good (I can’t remember what that was so don’t ask) but there were just too many which I thought were bad and still do but that should not stop him from putting something out.
BTW, the Democrats could have avoided all of this if they had passed a budget that took this into account when they controlled all branches of the government. Still nothing from the Senate after 800+ days and now Reid is waiting for the House to tell him what to do. Give me a break, that my friend is NOT leadership, that is NOT hope and that is NOT change. It is however a sure sign of leadership weakness. Exactly the kind of leadership weakness Obama railed against when he voted not to extend the debt ceiling under Bush when he was a senator.
According to his supporters, we need to raise the debt limit to pay for the weak leadership of the past who passed all of our current debt obligations. So who exactly was he calling weak for putting in all of the spending programs we are now obligated to pay for? Was it FDR for putting in Social Security (which we actually pay for and which every Congress has raided to fund their own little /big pet projects), LBJ for putting in Medicare and Medicaid, Reagan for strengthening the defense of the country, Bush 1 & 2 for defending the country or Bill Clinton for pressuring Fannie Mae to expand mortgage loans to unqualified low and moderate income borrowers which led to the beginnings of the financial meltdown?
Yes I know he said he was mistaken in his vote but what exactly was he mistaken about?? Was it his criticizing the leadership displayed by his predecessors?? In any event it’s too late now. He should face the music and lead. That is what he was elected for. What he’s doing now is trying to shift the tough decisions to somebody else so he looks “Presidential” and above the fray. I would prefer it if instead of looking Presidential he acted Presidential and told us exactly what he’s for.
Now what about an answer to my question Redhead - what about that job you supposedly have not working for First Read or whatever left wing blog group you want to call it?? When are you going to answer me on that??? You spend way too much time here to have a real job that anybody other than the DNC would pay you to do.
Also Feisty how come you don't include the 3.9 Trillion cost of the tax cuts for the "Middle Class" in you display of the Obama tax cut costs??
Oh, and one more thing to quote you,
“NO matter how hard you try to spin it - those UNFUNDED tax cuts will now be known as Obama's... lol
Damn those pesky facts! ;o))”
Keep waiting...
Contrary to popular belief, you & the rest of the RWNJ's don't get to demand, frame & control the debate!
You asked a question yesterday, I answered it factually & when you didn't like care for the answer, you went off on some rambling detour!
I will not be sucked into the spin & distort game by the likes of you, or any other tea bagger!
It's one of the oldest & most popular tricks in the Karl Rove playbook!
I suggest you cast your hook again & continue to troll cause I'm not biting! ;o)
Dang REB . . . stalk much?
And around sick children (lol) . . . definitely not A-game material . . . more "demands" and distractions from the desperate . . . looks like today is a good day to be away.
*sigh*
Feisty:
Do you imply they really have a first team??
This Party is so lost and out of touch with America that the Democrats will take back the House in 2012 and President Obama is going to get a second term. This is what happens when they have no ideas, the ones they have are already proved to be failures and NO Presidential Candidates other than flip-flopping retreads and an incompetent with headaches.
Welcome back Nancy P. and President Obama in 2012.
Feisty
So you are just another DNC bully like DWS. Confirms my opinion. You couldn't be sucked into any debate that shows just how wrong you are.
Good luck - Oh and Nash - nobody was talking to you. This was between her and me and it is obvious she doesn't have anything left to defend herself.
Nice try there REB - Feisty exposed you for what you are, a little misguided troll trying to act like you have some relevance and telling her what to do. She answered your question and you did not like the answer so you change the subject. Well, she told you and you lost - AGAIN, but Karl Rove gave you a vote - maybe not.
Thanks for playing.
er you mention flip flopping yet the POTUS is the one who consistently flip flops..........reversing his positoun of not considering a stop-gap measure while remarking that the opposition to his agenda "will have to eat their peas"........and a scant week later the POTUS was eating his own words......the dems haven't passed a budget in over 2 years as well as not presenting a taqngible course of action-just another attempt at ramming something thru without due diligence......that my friend is being out of touch with the american public.
Pssst... we had the debate yesterday and I kicked your A@@! I have nothing to defend...
So what did you do? *SNAP* change the subject! LOL
Like I said above, all you have managed to prove is your a good disciple of the Karl Rove playbook! ;o)
Have a great day!
Feisty you didn't kick anybody's A$$ and you are correct - You have nothing to defend because Obama has put out nothing!!!
Navy nobody was talking to you. This was between her and me and it is obvious she doesn't have anything left to defend herself so she has to go through surrogates like you and Nash but seeing as how you're so interested how about you responding??
REB-1013231
You are a troll, and Feisty would be wasting her time in discussing anything with you.
REB, Dont waste your time! Your going to get nothing out of them. Voice your own opinion stay away from too much name calling (that's their game) And have some fun with them at their expense. I have my own humor trail. Ive built a repository on one of my servers and I currently have over 1400 screen prints archived for the day after election day. Promises to be a fun day of humble pie eating ! But over all use them as a source of humor, because at that they excel!
Job1 - Another Dew Drop defender. Boy you guys have shown your colors and everything thy said about your little cabal was true.
jollyoldsoul1 - Yes I agree. Have been trying to hard to confuse these jokers with the facts. Looking forward to your postings.
REB,
“nobody was talking to you” This is open forum and everyone is permitted to
voice their opinion so if you don’t like it perhaps you should form your “read only” blog.
Talk about a CONTROL FREAK! lmao
I repeat:
Here's a worm - go bait your hook!
JS1 is considered a good catch, if large mouth a@@ is your thing! ;o)
You folks on the right wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the butt. FOX Noise.
REB:
If you are not talking to me, why did you reply to my comment?
Such a dufus.
Hope the kidster feels better soon, Nash. Have a good trip tomorrow as well.
To tell you to butt out. Too difficult for you to pick that up???
Ive never even turned on FOX news...... I get most everything I know from sources where events happen, and NBC news. I prefer to research whats interesting to me, But I do research if something is being portrayed as a fact, what side the source is on! If you notice the main common denominator of all the above posts is name calling. Forgive them for they know not what they do!
Sad but so true. Dufus, troll and tea bagger and not an answer to go with them.
C'est la vie and what s shame.
Reb - This is an open forum. You need to get a grip bud and stop your harrassment of Feisty. If you don't like the dialogue here get off and find someplace you like better. Oh and BTW....I second Feisty's suggestion you hook up with JAS1. She's just you're type....two weenies in a bun.
Another Feisty defender heard from. Harrassment is not asking for a response to a new question Laurie. Notice I said asking and not demanding as your girl says I did. Nowhere have I demanded anything.
Harrassment would however be considered what you, Navy, Job1 and Nash have been doing to me in trying to get me to stop asking Feisty a question. Think about it and check with your buddies.
And now a new name to add to the list - weenie joins Dufus, troll and tea bagger. Where did you people learn your manners???
Um, Reb, when you co-opted Nash's original post with your stalker troll (twice today), you pretty much invited Nash into the conversation, no?
Feisty, here's a fly swatter, Texas Sized, it might help with the gnat problem that is currently developing!
REB, I warned you! I've been here a few years and I know the routine of the indigenous female species on this blog. They are products of their environments and push way past what most men would say..... basically because they can scream sexist and people are programmed to pay attention. So basically they will rape your mind and make it your fault! its a liberal female thing!
Clara - the response was to Feisty if you scroll back and check so no to your first point.
Now to my point - why can't Feisty answer herself??? Why does she now need 5 people to stick their noses into something that is between us???
This Clara is really Harrassment!!!!!! And BTW the swatter won't make this gnat go away. An answer from your Queen might but I doubt that too.
jollyoldsoul1 - I am having too much fun exposing these people for what they really are. They are bullying, threatening and in general losers without a day job to pay the bills and they do this all on an open forum. They should be ashamed of themselves. They have nothing to contribute to the discussion except trash talk and pretty weak stuff at that.
Whatever Reb, when I look at comment #10 I see Nash's name,...
And YOU feel harassed? Really? because you get to say what you want and demand answers and no one else is allowed to respond, unless it's on YOUR terms? Who's the bully here?
Sheesh, and you Repubs call US 'entitled'? Priceless. How on earth is any of this 'threatening'? Because you want to create a public incident? Public Forum, you roll the dice, you never know what you're gonna' get. Kinda' like a box of chocolates, right?
Screw the swatter Clara - what this little guy needs is a shovel & some tissues for his crocodile tears!
PRICELESS! LMFAO!
Feisty,
I know, right?
Clara - 10.1 is what I responded to and that was Feisty. I would like you to show me where I DEMANDED anything? Can't do it can you. All I'm doing is ASKING for a response. You guys do it all the time but when it comes back to you, you call it a demand. As I said you are bullies, threatening and in general losers without a day job to pay the bills.
I see that Feisty came back to give you support but no response to me. Just more of her drivel.
PRICELESS! LMFAO!
REB:
You did make reference to me and Bev as well in your post above. You are the typically frustrated and impotent little Political Troll trying to be noticed by makinga lot of noise and stamping your feet. Go home, Karl Rove is calling and your diaper needs to be changed. Then you can go back out and play under that slimy and smelly rock you crawled out of today.
What is with your keyboard thugs that feel free to dish it out but when you get it back you get all whinny.
What are you the big brother come to fight Feisty's battles now?? Why can't you just let her answer the questions by herself? I am supposed to be afraid of the big bad Navy. I probably saw as much combat as you did when I was in Nam in '71 so I am not afraid. Bring it on.
And what is this obsession with name calling. So far I have been called weenie, Dufus, troll, tea bagger and now by the big guy who first used the term misguided troll above I am now an impotent little Political Troll.
You have some nerve. Just get her to answer the questions that's all. To repeat them for those of you that are slow:
If I understand your original concept correctly – you and all your pals agree with Carney that a leader should not put out a plan that the opposition won’t support. How is he supposed to lead?? Is he only to preach to the choir?? Is he not capable of convincing the “non-believers” that his way is correct? Won’t the liberal press support him and tell everybody that the president’s plan is great and wonderful?? Won’t sycophants like you, Navy, Bev and all of the rest of your Dew Drop Inn crowd tell him how great he is and try to convince others on this blog like me how wrong they are not to support his plan???
According to his supporters, we need to raise the debt limit to pay for the weak leadership of the past who passed all of our current debt obligations. So who exactly was he calling weak for putting in all of the spending programs we are now obligated to pay for? Was it FDR for putting in Social Security (which we actually pay for and which every Congress has raided to fund their own little /big pet projects), LBJ for putting in Medicare and Medicaid, Reagan for strengthening the defense of the country, Bush 1 & 2 for defending the country or Bill Clinton for pressuring Fannie Mae to expand mortgage loans to unqualified low and moderate income borrowers which led to the beginnings of the financial meltdown?
Yes I know he said he was mistaken in his vote but what exactly was he mistaken about?? Was it his criticizing the leadership displayed by his predecessors?? In any event it’s too late now. He should face the music and lead. That is what he was elected for. What he’s doing now is trying to shift the tough decisions to somebody else so he looks “Presidential” and above the fray. I would prefer it if instead of looking Presidential he acted Presidential and told us exactly what he’s for.
Now what about an answer to my question Redhead - what about that job you supposedly have not working for First Read or whatever left wing blog group you want to call it?? When are you going to answer me on that??? You spend way too much time here to have a real job that anybody other than the DNC would pay you to do.
Also Feisty how come you don't include the 3.9 Trillion cost of the tax cuts for the "Middle Class" in you display of the Obama tax cut costs??
Reb
I see you trying to parse semantics, you said:
Perhaps you are unaware that repeating yourself incessantly can be construed as a 'demand'? And the fact that you stalked her out from one thread to another didn't seem, I don't know, a touch DEMANDING?
Why are you so worried about everyone else's employment? Got some new found free time on your hands? When Mr. Murray, Mr. Montanaro or Ms. Weinberg are ready to let you 'run' the board, I guess you'll get your answer, eh? Or not. Probably best if you get used to disappointment.
Sorry if your feefees are hurt and you feel bullied; but I consider stalking every bit as egregious as you seem to feel when some of us point out the ludicrousness of your own behavior.
Two further points:
I don't see how you can acknowledge that you are present and accounted for on Nash's post and then you tell HER to butt out,...Really?
How is it that you can call what we give one another 'support' in one breath and in another you claim victimhood from the bullying/threatening (wtf? threatening, really? again, feefees hurt?). Perhaps a little skin thickening is in order?
PS. Here's a tip,...you've gotten the only answer you're ever going to get from her. If you want a different answer ask a different partner. You've gotten a little too wild eyed to merit any further response.
STTS
Clara - parsing nothing. When you don't get an answer to some simple questions you keep asking don't you or do you just forget about it? Perhaps that is your way to deal with being ignored on important issues but not mine. I fell sorry for you.
Following her from one thread to another is not stalking but in reality still trying to get an answer. What don't you understand about that.
I am now glad that you finally admit that you guys "run" the board. All of your trying to hide the fact has now come out in the open. At least we accomplished one thing.
I guess if I were looking for a job with Obama as president I would also need to get used to the disappointment. Fortunately I am not.
My feelings are not hurt. It would take a whole lot more than your pitiful rantings to bother me. My skin is also obviously a lot thicker than any of yours seeing as how you can't defend yourselves individually without a pack behind you. Yes your support for each other is admirable but the way that you use it is highly misguided and dangerous. You try to run the board as your board and not as the open forum it was designed to be.
Maybe one day you will all grow up and get a real life. I will be out of here after a few more days of playing with you, but you all will still be (to quote the Queen) - "Stuck on Stupid"
Okay, Reb, that's certainly YOUR opinion,...just remember, I never told anyone to shut up or butt out. I certainly don't run this board and I've never claimed to, so there YOU go making up stuff and putting words in MY mouth.
And now we've jumped to 'dangerous' instead of merely bullying and threatening? mkay, then. Duly noted.
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good Lord split ya',...as the sayin' goes.
Feisty:
This guy/gal is just another example of the problem and not the solution. Theyare so brain washed they cannot think for themselves and realize that if this country goes down because of the right wing crazies he/she stand to lose as much as the rest of us. It has nothing to do with republicans or democrats at this stage. We have passed that point a long time ago.
If we default we will stand to lose what we gained on our 401K plans, IRA's, Pensions etc. Unemployment would go to new records reducing Federal and State revenues even further. Just to stay afloat taxes will have to increase, no way around it. That is just the starters.
Clara - so what exactly does this mean that YOU posted?
When Mr. Murray, Mr. Montanaro or Ms. Weinberg are ready to let you 'run' the board, I guess you'll get your answer, eh? Or not. Probably best if you get used to disappointment.
I didn't say shut up to anybody but butt out yes I did. Didn't seem to work though. What would you say???
And yes you and your buddies are dangerous. The cabal you have set up is quite adept at trying to stifle anybody that voices opinions that are not your own. That dear is the epitomy of dangerous. Think about it for a bit. I'm sure it will hit you what I mean about silencing dissident opinions. It has been going on since the beginning of time with never a good result to show for itself.
Cute saying but I'll be here for a while more. Having too much fun playing with the small minds of the "big boys and girls"!! Ha Ha.
BTW thanks for the tip about Feisty not answering. I guess if you can't cut and paste it from Think Progress she can't answer anything.
Now about asking a different partner - how about an answer from you or the big bad Navy guy, to these questions:
If I understand your original concept correctly – you and all your pals agree with Carney that a leader should not put out a plan that the opposition won’t support.
According to his supporters, we need to raise the debt limit to pay for the weak leadership of the past who passed all of our current debt obligations. So who exactly was he calling weak for putting in all of the spending programs we are now obligated to pay for?
Yes I know he said he was mistaken in his vote but what exactly was he mistaken about?? Was it his criticizing the leadership displayed by his predecessors??
This is everything ex the employment question. Want to have a go??
PS - The queen said she had a real job a few months ago when I first asked her. Bev jumped to the defense that day.
Time to initiate the ignore author option gang!
Let the overly sensitive attention whore find someone else to harass!
First you got Benny, then Kirk & Ira and now this nitwit who are all in need of a pair of MAN PANTIES!
JS1 is till available BUT you're gonna need a bigger worm on your hook there REB! ;o)
PS: I see he's name dropping AGAIN! LMAO...
Dew Drop Inn? Who are you the NJ nut jobs hubby?
Adios Reb! It's been fun! ;o)
Navy - good to hear from you. Why did you write to her and not me ?? Just a rhetorical question.
First let me clarify I do not and never have supported a default. You can't find anything that I have written that says I do. You are right I would stand to lose just as much as everybody else. All I asked for is a firm plan from Obama so we could compare the SOLUTIONS side by side. We all know what the problem is.
Secondly, I was FDC section chief in an artillery unit in Vietnam and I don't recall my BC not showing his cadre the battle plan and asking for input/advice. That is what a leader does. Not this crap that Obama is doing. The final decision was always his or his superior but at least we saw something firm.
Care to respond to the questions now??
So Feisty is the cabal leader instructing everybody to set out the ignore button. I hope the rest of you don't follow her request and shut down debate. What a waste of time. I hope you can all think for yourselves.
As for the Dew Drop Inn - you tell everybody you'll see them there on Fridays. Not to hard to pick up on that sweetheart.
Reb, maybe you should meet the hosts of this board. They run it. And they haven't ceded it to anyone, that I am aware of.
If what you were attempting was debate and not some freakish control,...perhaps I'd continue,...as it is, I am moving on.
Only debate Clara that's all I ever wanted. Can't get that when nobody responds without name calling or when somebody tells all her friends to set you on ignore. That is dangerous. I hope you can see that. Would be nice to continue but don't want you to get in dutch with your buddies. Up to you. I will try to understand your position whatever decision you make.
"If there’s one piece of good news out there, it’s that McConnell’s plan so upset Tea Party House members that they’re more open to a grand bargain than they’ve been before."
Usually you at least try to hide the poms poms when cheerleading for the White House and more federal spending, boys..
C'mon now.
FR:
While I realize that it's of no importance to journalists these days, there is one slight difference between Kerry main selling point of military service and Romney's supposed expertise in job creation: Kerry's experience was real and the Swift Boat Liars did not expose anything remotely resembling the truth. Romney's only experience in job creation was creating NEGATIVE jobs for the people whom he fired during his days as a corporate raider.
Good point, Houston. The real lesson here is that the Swift boaters spent huge amounts of money to sell a lie. Romney is spending a lot of money to sell a fictitious job history. I guess we'll see if he's able to succeed...he sure never succeeded in creating any jobs.
You beat me to it, Houston. I still recall my disbelief as the swift boat lies were spread. Democrats won't need to lie about Romney's record of job-cutting and outsourcing.
John B, Des Moines, IA
As the old saying goes, money talks, truth walks. Romney hasn't done a very good job so far of amassing much money to do his talking for him yet, but with the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, he may not have to if he gets to the general election. Whatever Republican wins the nomination will have a lot of loudly talking money supplied by very shy secret donors.
The pukes will not be happy until they tank the entire economy AGAIN!!
But, the GOP has this fascinating way of shooting itself in the foot..., even when their lies, deceptions and distortions are not yet fully exposed.
The t-GOPers ALL simply stink of elitism, and that's a stink that's so reminiscent of the incompetent, criminal, elitist, bushes, it gets people to think twice.
MoonRiverExpress
That way they can be the heroes of the American people after they let us flail in the wind for a few more years. If we do have a crash again any improvement from zero will make them look like superstars. PARTY POLITICS!
x
The US Senate Exchange wants to bail out their Wall Street cronies again.
The "gang bang of six" is a rape squad assaulting the American middle class.
QE1 and QE2 was a fraud and in this this third "summer of recovery" they want QE3?
You cannot max out a credit card, raise the limit and expect lower payments on your debt.
We just want to show that we are willing to pay the money that has already been spent. I am at lest mildly suprised that all of you "personal responsibility" republicans actually turn out to be irresponsible welchers.
more like a six-pack of stupidity.
No worries America, the only thing that is certain about this whole mess is that NOTHING is going to make it through the House. They want to play their own little game and not participate in anything that is good for the country, only what is good for their party(s) Republican and TP..
Voting Independent from now on.
welcome to the freedom of NO Party ideology
Hey... that's my line.
LOL
Despite thae fact that there are already signs that the Republicans absolute refusal to compromise, on a debt limit solution is hurting our fragile economic recovery, Despite the dire warnings put out by leading economists, lending institutionsetc., of the potentially calamitous results, of not raising the debt ceiling, the house republicans refuse to act rationally and responsibly. I consider fanatics to be folks whose ideology is so sacred that they cannot act in a rational manner, and these huse republicans have proven themselves to be fanatics.
are those the same "leaders" who were clueless about the collapse back in '08 and have been consistently wrong about the so called "recovery" to date........
Well out of the 1180 Independents I know there is finally one that is an Obama supporter.
Are these the same leading economists that are always taken by surprise at the economic news? I am amazed that they can still pull a paycheck with always being surprised by the news and being wrong. I don't have much faith in their projections. Everyone forgets about the supposed Y2K disaster that was supposed to happen and didn't.
Don't forget that the Dems have not proposed or passed a budget for over 800 days, that is a dereliction of duty and they should lose their jobs! The Dems got what they wanted ever since they took control of the congress and senate in 2006. They have rammed all of the spending bills down our throats, against the will of the American people and now it's time to pay the piper.
I have yet to see anyone lay out the details of Obama's debt ceiling plan. Oh yeah, he doesn't have one! The CBO said they can't score a speech he gives.
Obama did provide a feeble attempt recently at a budget proposal, it asked for more spending. Typical leftist ideologue.
Hey, Tea Publicans: you didn't get the memo: the Republicans control the House now. They are in control of proposing budgets. The Democrats CAN'T. In the House, only the party in control gets to put forth a budget.
First there was FDR, Then came LBJ, Then came Jimmy Carter, then came Geroge Bush, and Now Obama. The demise of the US way of life is defined by these clowns.
George, you forgot to add Teddy R. and Woodrow Wilson. They started this ideological mess. The others you mentioned picked it up and ran with it.
Are we supposed to care about Michelle Bachmans' headaches? She doesn't have a snowflakes chance in hell.
I've read a lot of the posts on here, and it's pretty damn obvious that there are a lot of queers, disgrunteled old redheads and the biggest crowd of Ass/liberals I've seen so far. The left is mad as hell. Prozac anyone?
A plan already passed the house. It's called cut,cap and balance.
But it also was the plan put on the spotlight that the Illinois (R) rep didn't know what it stated and it was claimed doesn't do anything. It outlines what we should do, but doesn't tell you how it's going to be executed. That's not a plan.
Nothing diverts attention from a good crisis like creating a phoney one!
Democrats have studied their base and learned how to omit certain facts and flaunt others to evoke targeted responses from their base. Because their audiences tend to have strong "feelings" about what they hear, they don't investigate and will usually distrust any who disagree.
Democrats manipulate their proponents, not educate them. They use words, abstract ideas and demonization to foster mistrust of opponents. Most liberals and democrats don't realize they are LITERALLY being emotionally abused by their leaders.
If you do the research you will find that long anti-West rant contains nothing that points to West being anti-woman. In these articles, Rep West only encourages conservative to stand WITH the mostly male conservative members of Congress in opposing pro-choice, proponents of liberal reproductive policy.
Liberals, don't fall for the bait! Read all the articles to see the facts and get past the spin. Don't allow Democratic forces to push your buttons and push you into emotionalism that makes you unreasonable.
If Allen West is anti-woman, then most Black men are. The idea of women getting behind their men in standing against things they protest is sample fare of strategies of the black church and the black community, i.e. the million man march.
The Gang of Six plan is just a variation on the old bait-and-switch routine from the Democrat playbook — raise taxes now in trade for the promise of spending cuts later. But — surprise — the (previously planned for, but now called “draconian”) spending cuts never come. That’s why Obama is already endorsing this deal, as though it’s some kind of compromise...when in fact, he hasn't even read it!
Exactly. This idea that the spending cut will come later is a promise that WILL be broken by Obama and the Democrats.
As long as they get another blank check to continue spending they will give the excuse later down the road AFTER the programs are established with the money spent, like the ALWAYS do, "we can't cut these programs because they will hurt too many people".
It take ZERO courage to be a bleeding heart liberal.
Like the blank check they gave Bush to fund the wars? They will need to raise taxes, there is no other way. The other thing to do is to control health care costs. I do agree that many of the social programs waste a lot of money, but the reality is that for many people in this economy it's the only thing keeping them afloat. We will need to clean house and streamline these programs. They are inefficient now, but they have always been, under Republicans and Democrats. We are too far in the hole to be stubborn and not negotiate. I really get tired of hearing how Obama is so terrible for America when we have an entire House and Senate full of children who can't compromise, sign pledges written by special interests groups and forget about their pledge to put their constituents first. Yes, it takes guts to make these cuts, but it also takes guts to tell your rich donors you will raise their taxes.
"Like the blank check they gave Bush to fund the wars?"
Yes.
"They will need to raise taxes, there is no other way"
Possibly. They will have to wait untill the economy gets back on track.
"We will need to clean house and streamline these programs"
I agree but Congress has been saying that for decades.
"I really get tired of hearing how Obama is so terrible for America when we have an entire House and Senate full of children who can't compromise"
The biggest KID is Obama. This child back when he was a Senator in 2006 said the following....
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2011/01/06/obama-2011-raise-the-debt-limit-obama-2006-dont-you-dare-raise-the-debt-limit/
You do realize that HALF the gang of 6 are Republicans, right?
Are they also in on the Democratic bait and switch?
You are right. That's why most conservatives are not buying it. Only establishment Republicans who focus on re-election are considering it, because they're afraid to be seen as bad guys.
Any compromise that doesn't correct or deter overspending AND makes short- and long-term cuts is a political compromise not a solution. Anyone who wants compromise without solving the problem wants the fighting to stop but not the problem.
That's not compromise. That's pacification.
What John from Iowa doesn't seem to realize is that the R behind someone's name doesn't really mean that they are truly conservative. There is a reason that these wimps are referred to as RINOs.
All part of purging the GOP of any reasonable or rational people. With the Republican Party firmly in the hands of the TP extremists this is all part of the process. Even people who were instrumental in the Clinton impeachment fiasco are in some cases now referred to as "RINOs". Not only do I see it happening but I've written about it previously. Once the radical Conservatives manage to completely destroy the GOP there will once again be a hope that less extreme elements can regain control of the Republican Party that has left them and we can once again have two healthy parties.
Your so called lame return to "healthy parties" is code for a return to office of the spinless moderates who vote with the special interests that contribute the most to their BS careers as life time politicians and who BTW are solely responsible for the financial mess were currently find our government in.
Apparently you haven't been paying attention to notice that these gutless cowards you are referring to are the ones who have been "kicking the can down the road" for decades.
Republicans have a 21% approval for their handling of the debt ceiling. The American people see them for what they are no matter the talking points you try to use for deflection.
Since the Tea Party counts as its leaders people like Dick Armey, Karl Rove, Grover Norquist, and funding provided by the Koch brothers it's obvious that the TP is an arm of the Washington special interests who got us into this mess.
They got a plan
and we got the shaft.
The republicans on their media circuit, where's Obama's plan, where's Obama's plan, where's Obama's plan. OK we heard you. But yet, it seems repub senators are sitting and discussing a plan with Obama to refine, but on the other hand they say he's not doing anything. Then you have the house who puts together an outline of what they want to do, but it doesn't tell you how to get it done, that's their plan.
They are all to blame for playing little games including Obama who at the last minute NOW he's got to do something about it. I know Obama doing work really cuts into your media run, you will go down as the president to hit more talk shows then any other.
Any way you slice it, a plan from Obama, a plan from the Democrats, or a plan from the Republicans, we are sure to get the shaft. Our whole government combined is the worst ever and I don't think any of them know what they are doing.
I am sick and tired of everyone in the media blaming the GOP for this mess, well who had more spending binges on the deficit Obama did and Pelosi,Reid . They made it even more worse. Who had control of the house and senate before the GOP came in 2010 election? The Democrats of course. So why didnt the LEFT/DEMO take care of this budget and deficit first before Obamacare? Obamacare could of waited until the LEFT had a balanced budget into play then worked on Obamamcare instead they jammed this Obamacare down our throats and now this crappy bill is really cramping everyone style including the job sector who are not hiring because of all the regulations,Obamacare. Still unemployment is passed 9%. Alot of Americans are on welfare and now 8000 more people will be on the unemployment line do to the cut of the space program. It's looking real good for Obama.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey Obama why don't you kill all the jobs completely and put everyone on rashings and welfare. Obama wants to bankrupt the system and he's pushing for it along with George Soros his buddy. Their getting their wish people.
I'm a bit surprised that you haven't been pilloried by feistyredhead and her cabal. I completely agree with your assesment of Obamas' motives and goals. It is a sad commentary on the electorate that they would wilingly elect a full blown socialist to the presidency.
Dave- I didn't vote for Obama, I did a little background check on his views on things and what he stood for like his father. I will never vote for a socialist liberal. As a proud Conservative Independent who fiemly believes in live within your means! Obama does not care about budgeting and cutting back, he don't have to worry because its not his $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Maybe people need to read about his father and how Obama thinks the way he does. George Soros look into his background to. Soros stated the onlly thing standing in his way of destroying this country is within and Obama feels the same way. I blame the voters for being so blind. Don't rush into voting unless you do your research. I amgaisnt amnesty and I will not vote for anyone who support it, I am against pork waste like shrimp on a treadmill, I will not vote for anyone who refuses to balance a budget and all they want to do is spend,spend,spend........... just look at all the Liberal states and how they are ina crisis$$$$$$$$$$$$ that will tell you something about the Liberal Left. All the Blue Dogs are gone now we have in Washington Liberals and they all believe in amnesty, welfare, spread the wealth around. Obama talks about going after loopholes well the poor have plenty of them like making babies to avoid taxes, foodstamp program which the poor are abusing the system ect... I know a lot of poor who have cars, a lot stereo s, tv's and gold rings,bracelets ect...... boy they are poor all right. The pore poor take care of the poor which is a load of BS. THE REAL POOR ARE THOSE WHO ARE STARVING LIKE AFRICA who have no food, or water, no tv's, or cars, or clothes on their backs. Those are poor.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am sick of this administrations scare tactics and rhetoric nonsense and gullable people keep falling for Obama BS CRAP.
A little of this a little of that