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Subscribe to RSSIt’s always darkest before the deal… Yesterday’s Obama vs. Cantor clash… Cantor’s isolation (and how he’s become the person to watch in this whole debate)… Despite yesterday’s theatrics, there are still three ways to resolve the impasse… And those three paths could combine to form a grand bargain of sorts… How campaigning in the early states helps the out-of-power party… Summer of Speculation: Rudy is in New Hampshire, Christie to raise money for Steve King, and Perry calls Grassley… And on the 2012 trail: Romney’s in New Hampshire, while Cain visits Tennessee.
*** Always the darkest before the deal: With the clock ticking on debt ceiling, the news appears grim. Moody’s says it’s reviewing a possible downgrade of the government’s AAA bond rating. Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke warned of financial calamity if the debt ceiling isn’t increased. And at yesterday’s White House meeting to find a resolution to the legislative impasse, President Obama clashed with House Minority Leader Eric Cantor (more on that below). But as we said during the looming possibility of a government shutdown in the spring, it’s always darkest before the deal.
*** Obama vs. Cantor: As for yesterday’s Obama vs. Cantor clash, it ISN’T striking that it happened; after all, these players have to be plenty frustrated by now. But what IS striking is that Cantor went directly to the press to tell his version of the story. After yesterday's meeting, Cantor recounted telling the participants that there would have to be multiple debt-ceiling increases to get through Nov. 2012. “Well that's when [Obama] got very agitated seemingly and said that had sat there long enough and no other president, Ronald Reagan wouldn't sit here like this, and that he's reached the point that something's gotta give,” Cantor said, per NBC’s Frank Thorp. “And he said to me, ‘Eric, don't call my bluff.’ He said, ‘I'm going to the American people with this.’” After that, Cantor says Obama got up and said, “I’ll see you tomorrow.” (And they meet again today at 4:15 pm ET.) There are a LOT of folks on all sides of these talks who believe the group is too big and that too much leaks out or simply gets read out, which is why there is speculation the president asks them all to come to Camp David (keep them from cameras).
*** Dems push back: Democrats dispute Cantor’s version of events. One Democratic aide said Cantor’s story was overblown. “For someone who knows how to walk out of a meeting, you'd think he know it when he saw it. Cantor rudely interrupted the president three times to advocate for short-term debt ceiling increases while the president was wrapping the meeting.”
*** Cantor’s isolation: What has become increasingly clear is that Cantor has become the person to watch in this entire debate. He’s either the Tea Party hero or scapegoat. Or both. He also has become isolated -- even within his party. There’s Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who told conservative talk-radio host Laura Ingraham yesterday that Republicans are at risk if there’s a default. "You know, it's an argument he has a good chance of winning, and all of a sudden we [Republicans] have co-ownership of a bad economy," McConnell said. "That is a very bad positioning going into an election." And GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham said that Republicans should be open to increasing revenues. As Politico writes, “Cantor has a lot riding on the outcome of the debt-limit negotiations. He’ll share in the public blame if they fall apart and the economy tanks, and he’ll face recriminations from his conservative base in the House if he cuts too soft a deal with the president.”
*** The three options to a resolution: Despite yesterday’s conflict, you can still see the making of a deal. And there are essentially three paths to a resolution. One is the somewhat maligned but viable McConnell “Hail Mary punt,” which would only deny the president’s request for a debt ceiling raise if veto-proof majorities in BOTH houses of Congress disapprove of the request. Two is the cuts the members of the so-called Biden group came up with (Cantor is among the advocates of this route). And three, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is pushing the idea of creating a binding congressional commission to handle either tax reform, Social Security reform, or both (modeled after the Social Security reform commission of the ‘80s and a little bit from the military base closing commission in the early ‘90s). The commission recommendations would NOT be subject to any alterations by Congress and instead would only be subject to an up-or-down vote.
*** How you still get to the grand bargain: Per one Democratic leadership insider, pieces of all three contingency plans could turn into the "grand bargain." For instance: You get a significant amount of cuts from the Biden group (think $700 to $800 billion) to get a six-month raise in the debt ceiling. Also included would be the binding Reid commissions to tackle tax reform and entitlement reform. They’d have, say, three months to get tax reform done and six months to get the entitlement reform done. Whatever they agreed to would be subject to the up-or-down vote, and if tax reform got enacted, then it would be linked to another large chunk of cuts (the rest of the Biden cuts, plus maybe more). And as a failsafe, the McConnell concept on the debt ceiling would also be part of the deal if both tax reform and entitlement reform failed. To be clear, the above plan is not being considered right now. It’s more of an example of how convoluted the eventual roadmap to a deal is going to be.
*** How campaigning in the early states helps the out-of-power party: Although it’s still early, a new Mason-Dixon poll showing Obama trailing Romney in Iowa -- after another poll showing a similar spread in New Hampshire -- suggests how the early primary states are helpful to the opposition party. In 2008, Obama’s constant primary campaigning in Iowa and New Hampshire allowed him to win those states in the general election. And remember that John Kerry flipped New Hampshire in the ’04 general election, though he fell short in Iowa.
*** Summer of speculation: Rudy Giuliani today embarks on a two-day swing through New Hampshire, the AP reports. “Giuliani says he's not convinced any of the Republican presidential contenders can defeat President Obama. Until he is, Giuliani says he won't rule out a run at the White House himself… The 67-year-old Republican tells The Associated Press that a decision about his political future won't come until late August or early September.” Meanwhile, the Washington Post says that New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie will headline a fundraiser for conservative Iowa Congressman Steve King when Christie visits the Hawkeye State later this month. That Christie is doing this for King – and not someone like Tom Latham – certainly raises eyebrows…
*** Perry calls Grassley: And speaking of the summer of speculation, the Des Moines Register notes that Texas Gov. Rick Perry yesterday called Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley (R). “Grassley, in a conference call with reporters, didn't disclose what Perry had to say, but he wasn't shy about repeating the advice he offered: ‘I gave him the advice that if he's going to run, he'd better run in Iowa, and he'd better cover a lot of territory.’”
*** On the 2012 trail: Mitt Romney spends his day in New Hampshire, hitting Portsmouth, Rochester, and Derry… And in Cain is in Tennessee.
*** Thursday's "The Daily Rundown" lineup: Reps. Jason Chaffetz (R-UT) and Xavier Becerra (D-CA) on the debt talks... Former State Department spokesman Jamie Rubin on the Mumbai attacks, Syria, and more... MSNBC’s Jonathan Alter, Politico's Maggie Haberman and National Review's Reihan Salam on 2012...
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Countdown to NV-2 and NY-9 special elections: 61 days
Countdown to Election Day 2011: 117 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 207 days
* Note: When the IA caucuses take place depends on whether other states move up
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And the Debt Saga continues and President Obama made it abundantly clear for the last time yesterday that he is putting everything on the Discussion Table and the hell with his political career. He is not concerned about his political life but is 100% committed to this country. Talk about leadership.
In yesterday’s meeting Cantor acted like a little kid, interrupted the President spouting talking points and NOT ONE idea. Kind of like many of the right that visit this board every day so you can pretty well imagine the nature of those talks yesterday.
Then Cantor tried to say that President Obama stormed out of the meeting which was later proved to be false. Hypocrite, who is the one that walks out of meetings. Again, blame somebody else for the very same thing that you are guilty of. The President told all of them in no uncertain words that they were doing exactly what this country finds so repugnant about politics. He told them to go get their acts together and start finding solutions to the problem and then adjourned the meeting.
Somebody name one thing that the GOP/TP has compromised on in the DEBT meetings, one thing. President Obama has put entitlements on the table for discussion, reducing the DOD budget, just about everything and the GOP/TP has not offered one compromise of their own. Not one, just like they have not done one thing to move this country forward in the last 2years plus.
Where are the jobs bill that they promised in 2010, where are their plans to improve the economy that they promised in 2010. Again nothing, no jobs bill, no economic stimulus, big cuts to education, and absolutely NO LEADERSHIP.
I told you this is not about the Debt Ceiling. I told you that the GOP/TP was not going to do anything to move this country forward. I told you it is about Power and Greed, It is about Class Warfare. It is about the wholesale destruction of the economy, our credit status and global chaos.
The GOP/TP is a cancer on this country and it is time for it to be surgically removed, period. They serve no value to this country at all and in fact are the disease that is rotting this country from the inside out.
We are in big trouble and the GOP/TP is not going to be able to “cut and Run” on this issue and it will come back to bite them. You think the sacrifice our President is asking us to make now is a big deal, just wait and watch what happens next. The difference is that we will not be able to control any of it once it starts. The Great Depression will look like a picnic compared to what is coming.
Watching Joe Blow this morning and the question was presented what did the GOP/TP do to move this country forward. The answer “The Ryan Budget Bill” you know the one that repeals Medicare and Medicaid, cuts the budgets of 50 or more Social Safety Nets like education, medical research, FEMA, FDA, etc, etc and takes those savings to give record tax cuts to the top 2%. Oh that bill. And it adds almost 6 trillion dollars to the deficit/debt over the next decade that means the Debt Ceiling will have to be increased to implement that bill if it passes. Hypocrites/Liars – all of them.
Come on people time to wake up and connect the dots.
Would one of the regular FR lefty liberals tell me again the fairy tale about how Barry is “the only adult in the room”??
I always like hearing that one.
From Politico:
Obama abruptly walks out of talks
By: Jonathan Allen and Jake Sherman
July 13, 2011 07:18 PM EDT
President Barack Obama abruptly walked out of a stormy debt-limit meeting with congressional leaders Wednesday, a dramatic setback to the already shaky negotiations.
“He shoved back and said ‘I’ll see you tomorrow’ and walked out,” House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) told reporters in the Capitol after the meeting.
On a day when the Moody’s rating agency warned that American debt could be downgraded, the White House talks blew up amid a new round of sniping between Obama and Cantor, who are fast becoming bitter enemies.
When Cantor said the two sides were too far apart to get a deal that could pass the House by the Treasury Department’s Aug. 2 deadline — and that he would consider moving a short-term debt-limit increase alongside smaller spending cuts — Obama began to lecture him.
“Eric, don’t call my bluff,” the president said, warning Cantor that he would take his case “to the American people.” He told Cantor that no other president — not Ronald Reagan, the president said — would sit through such negotiations.
So Navy, from the same post you claim everything is on the table then rant against the Ryan budget proposals. Please explain exactly what the President has on the table and what it adds up to.
Let the right-wingers howl. Truth has prevailed. I still have concerns about the future of our country because of right-wing extremists. They will always be with us and we must never relax. They are exceedingly dangerous, but some day, the left-wing extremists may catch the attention of the Pavlovian media - Ring that bell loud enough and they will come. We must always be vigilant because the enemy frequently lies within our borders.
It is more important than ever that we educate, educate, educate. I take it as an indisputable fact that extremists of both the left and the right cannot be educated; they simply don't have the mental horsepower. They are little more than cannon fodder for the power-hungry on both the right and the left.
We haven't learned much that is new in the last few weeks. We have however, been reminded of timeless truths and we have seen how they apply in today's world.
President Obama has slain the ignorance beast, or at least wounded it seriously. Our budget is out of control. He knows that and he knows there are only a few ways to bring it into balance. We must cut spending. He has said this repeatedly and every single time he meets Republican demands, they walk away. He knows we must increase revenues; that means increasing taxes. The wealthiest WILL have to pay more. The song and dance about the burden on the rich is beyond ridicule. They will feel very little pain. Efficiency must come to government - that is the answer to waste, fraud, and abuse.
Some interesting facts - Federal employment is now at levels below that of the Bush Administration. Immigration enforcement is more effective than it was during the Bush Administration. Job losses kicking into high gear as Bush left office have now been stanched. Dammit! Those are facts.
Whether you love Nancy Pelosi or hate her, the fact is she has been far more effective than John Boehner. Whether you like health insurance reform, the truth is she was the key to getting it put into place. That is the most significant piece of legislation since the Civil Rights laws, and some day, we will wonder how anyone with a lick of sense fought this law.
Since Boehner has been in charge, we have seen one attack after another on red herrings and privacy. Boehner might actually have the potential to be a good Speaker, but he is faced with a party that is fractured in a very new way. He has the old line Republicans who know how government works, which is not exactly the sort of thing that makes one's heart beat wildly, but at least government limps along. He also has to deal with the self-centered and stunningly ignorant Tea Party clowns who think a two-piece puzzle is complex. Lastly, he must deal with the most evil man in government since Dick Cheney - the duplicitous, power-mad, traitorous Eric Cantor. (You must be comatose to not understand how vile this punk is.)
I have not always been happy with the decisions of our President. However, he has access to information that I do not. I am also convinced that he now has information that was deliberately withheld in the past. He is far too erudite and diplomatic to share that with us.
At the same time, I now see that he does have the steel in his backbone that I so desperately wanted to see. This is the man who can lead us out of this morass. I will still disagree with the President on occasion; of that, I am certain. However, I no longer imagine that I will ever regret casting my vote for him.
And Sen. Mitch McConnell said he isn't going to do anything to help re-elect President Obama.
How GD stupid are these people? Sen. McConnell, no one expects you to do anything to help re-elect President Obama. What we expect is you do your freakin' job for the American people.
Can't we get rid of these people in the next election? As Lawrence said, most of these politicians are unbelievably incompetent and unable to negotiate.
Eric Cantor is looking like the jackass he always was. Talk about incompetent. He's doing the bidding for the richest people in this country.
And he lied about what transpired in that meeting last night.
He's stabbing President Obama, Speaker Boehner and the American people in the back.
Big time. He shouldn't have a seat in these meetings. He doesn't belong there.
As someone said yesterday over @ DKos, these politicians are not statesmen. They are empty suited spoiled brats. Zero maturity. Zero ideas. Zero competence. Zero integrity.
As Howard Dean said, don't trust the GOP with your money. They'll squander it. They always do.
It has been so easy for Obama up until now. As a Community Organizer, Obama didn't have come up with ideas to fix problems, in fact his job was to create problems, be a pain in the butt to politicians just to get his way. He took that routine to the Illinois state senate, and voted "Present" most times, that's sure taking a stand, so once again Obama opts out on making the hard choices. As a US Senator, Obama speaks eloquently about not raising the debt ceiling, and takes political shots at Bush for asking the Congress to do so. Now as President, Obama has now made a 180 degree turn on the debt ceiling and he wants it raised with no conditions. Everything has now caught up to Obama. Half the Congress, the House, disagrees with Obama, and now Obama has to consider a different point of view, one that isn't the far left wing radical position that Obama is used to taking. And that other point of view frustrates and angers Obama. He loses control of his emotions and stomps out of meetings. He whines "Why can't we all just get along". Obama doesn't like to be questioned, because he doesn't have the answers, and questions make him look stupid.The country is looking for its leaders to bring people together, instead, Obama threatens seniors and the disabled with withholding their Social Security checks. The country is looking for wisdom, but gets told instead to "Eat your peas". It was clear when Obama was elected he was out of his depth, and he didn't have the brains to do the tough things. Now his lies and incompetence have all caught up to him. It's not so easy for Obama these days.
McConnell's comment hit me in the gut. "That is a very bad positioning going into an election." Excuse me, how about how the country will be effectied if we default? How about asking what's the best thing to do for the country? It is shocking to me the Republicans have turned deficit reduction into a political device to try and leverage themselves back into the White House. I actually belived the conservatives when they said reducing the deficit was their number one priority. Then they walked away from the President's offer of 4 trillion in cuts, just to protect a few tax loopholes. I am predisposed to side with President Obama, obviously, because I'm a Democrat, but his rage mirrors my own. I am very angry at what is happening in Congress.
Just one less copy-and-paste line the Liberals can use to describe the man-child Obama.
Obama is nothing but a tool. It must be tough for him to sit in those meetings day in and day out being schooled on the economics of the country by Eric Cantor. It must be hard for Obama to listen to Rep. Cantor explain to him the current economic condition of the country, and for Cantor to explain a pathway out of the problem. Obama probably doesn't understand a quarter of what Cantor is talking about, but Obama does know one other thing, his side, the Liberals, don't have a plan. Sure Obama "puts everything on the table", but the country has figured out with Obama that means absolutely nothing. None of Obama's spending have solved any problems in the county, in fact they've created a lot more problems. So Obama, frustrated, confused, and angry, walks out of the meetings. Obama has been exposed as a fraud, his ego has been bruised, he knows people see him for the fool he is, and he's not happy about it.
The President is growing tried of dealing with these Republicans that want to keep these tax loop holes and not raise the debt ceiling. I know that the problem all stems from these Republicans Tea Party people that are so illiterate as far as economics. However, the Republicans leadership has and must get these illiterate folks on board. This debt ceiling deal will get done, and failure by these Republican to do so will destroy not only their party but damage the United so bad that it would take years to recovery.
Cantor had better cool his baby talk and get on board. Remember, this is not President Obama’s debt, but instead, as the majority of American people understand, it is W. Bush’s debt and that is a fact that can’t be ignored.
A question for First Read/Newsvine:
I have noticed that a number of FR posters have their Newsvine pages sanitized by eliminating any history of their posts. Is that a choice that is available to all posters, or is it only available to a select few elite posters that have “insider” status (aka the (formerly) secret libsrus chat room gang)?
It's what gossipy little girly men do BEST... there's nothing 'striking' about it AT ALL! lol
As President Obama said yesterday - ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Its like the "no drama Obama" thing. That was invented by Axelrod as a mantra for am candidate given to temper fits when challenged- and seized on by a besotted media to extoll his demeanor.
In other words, it's a talking point, but the media dares not question it. They go further- they parrot it.
By the way, Mark Murray- I was busy yesterday, so did not see your response to my questioning the dollar figure for average donations until early this morning. Using Messina's reasoning, 552,000 people contributed $69, 2.246 times.
Now, call me a stickler, but I am pretty sure his numbers were meant to impart the idea that the average person contributed just $69- not that they wrote multiple checks. In fact, the Obama campaign is looking for some trouble from the FEC for just such shenanigans from last campaign- giving $250 twenty five times puts you OVER the limit.
But I digress. The point is that, while the actual checks written may have averaged $69, the donors gave more than that- the average donation per individual was $156- no matter HOW many checks they wrote. The $69 figure is deceptive.
What else can one expect from a person so low he would lie about his own dying mother for political gain
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/us/politics/14mother.html
You guys pick some despicable heroes.
President Obama has put entitlements up for DISCUSSION - meaning lets talk about them and see what we can agree on. They have already ID several DOD budget decreases and others. This has been explained to you before - you are just role playing Rep. Cantor - You cannot defend your position so you try to deflect the real questions.
Tell us one thing, just one, that the GOP/TP has compromised on during these meetings. Come on just tell us one - President Obama open eveything up to DISCUSSION and you guys can not even sit at the table to discuss what needs to be done. He is asking for your input and your guys are "cutting and running".
Sorry not playing your game - either start compromising or get the hell out of the way.
Speaking of whiny gossipy girly men and along comes joey... lmao
You & the rest think you're SO smart - you figure it out dumba@@! ;o)
"Would one of the regular FR lefty liberals tell me again the fairy tale about how Barry is “the only adult in the room”??"
The President of the United States CAN'T walk away from an intellectual twerp like Cantor?
JoAnna Smith:
I had to take you off ignore to see how much crazier you've gotten. After reading your post at 1.7 it's clear you sunk further.
Your wrote: "It must be hard for Obama to listen to Rep. Cantor explain to him the current economic condition of the country, and for Cantor to explain a pathway out of the problem."
It's hard for not just the President, but for the VAST majority of Americans to listen to Cantor explaining the pathway out of our problem. The VAST majority of Americans do not think that selling America to the highest bidder is an acceptable path.
Catastrophic damage across the American and global economy?
That's the story being pushed by the MSM. If we don't increase the debt ceiling, then all hell will break loose. It'll be economic Armageddon. It'll stop our fragile economic recovery in its tracks. Widows and orphans will starve, as will every one of our beloved dogs.
Truth be told, no one really knows what would happen because we've never gone down this path before. So the fear mongering by the MSM is based on: a) their predisposition to sensationalism and b) their left-leaning instincts. But those of us with more objective views might come to somewhat different conclusions.
The Armageddon scenario – as embodied IMF concerns of "dire consequences" and Bernanke's comment about "shock waves" in the financial system -- is based on the prospect that the U.S. would stiff our bondholders. If that were to happen, then all hell WOULD break loose. But that's a highly unlikely outcome because the government has more than enough cash to service our debt (even Bernanke said yesterday we would pay our bondholders first). The government even has enough cash to keep sending out Social Security checks and Medicare payments as well as meeting military payrolls. What the government wouldn't have is enough cash and/or borrowing authority to keep departments like Energy, Education, Commerce, Agriculture etc up and running. So that's where the haircut would come, in the form of a massive shutdown of government offices.
But is that Armageddon? Hardly. What it would be is a dramatic outcome of a political stalemate, where the issue was forced by those who have the power to insist that NOW is the time to get serious about getting our spending under control. And it is House Republicans of whom I speak – the only REAL adults in this conversation.
The core issue is actually pretty simple: do we want to run the risk of enduring some short term turmoil today as a possible consequence of not raising the debt ceiling? Or do we just kick the can down the road again and instead run the risk of dealing with riots in the streets a la Greece in a not too distant future? It's pay me now or pay me later, and the choice of payment plans is ours.
So, what say you America? Should we take a stand today -- or not? Should Republicans stand firm and use their power to accomplish something they believe in, as the Dems did last year with HCR? Or should they tuck their tails between their legs and hide out in the boiler room with Domenico? Before you decide, take a look at this to get the FACTS rather than the smoke coming from the fear mongering left.
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/fundmastery/2011/07/12/the-u-s-treasury-will-not-default/?mod=google_news_blog
P.S. Being the fair and balanced kind of guy I am, I'm also providing this link. The material doesn't necessarily undercut my argument, but it does show the level of pain that would be involved. Pain – but not Armageddon.
http://www.bipartisanpolicy.org/sites/default/files/Debt%20Ceiling%20Analysis%20.pdf
Cantor has exposed Obama in these meetings. Obama lost his cool when Cantor said only a short term agreement is possible and Obama exploded in frustration telling Cantor "Don't call my bluff!!" So Obama is bluffing about vetoing a short term agreement? We all know Obama is bluffing, but Obama doesn't like to be challenged, doesn't like to be proven wrong. Obama thinks he's never wrong, that's why he keeps borrowing spending all this money because Obama just knows deep down he has to be right. Cantor is finally getting through to Obama though, and Obama is starting to realize he's wrong. That's why Obama loses his cool and runs out of these meetings.
First Read is reporting that Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) is apparently about to become re-engaged in the debate on resolving the nation's debt crisis.
Perhaps Senator Coburn, as one of the debt commission members who so worked hard to address a solution to the nation's crushing debt, could somehow persuade President Obama to finally accept the Plan produced by that bipartisan panel.
Senator Coburn has a good personal relationship with President Obama.
His participation in the debate can only improve the prospects in terms of arriving at some long-term bipartisan agreement.
Thanks Joe, Your post proves that President Obama IS the only adult in the room. As an Independent voter I want to see BOTH sides make concessions and I want to see a compromise; that is how democracy works. Its becoming more than obvious what the Teapublicans are all about and it has nothing to do with their childish "talking points".
Really "Joanna". The president is a pretty bright guy whether you like him or not. Unfortunately he can be a bit naive at times to believe that Washington can actively function and make the best and balanced decisions for the American people versus their own interests and ideologies. The republicans have dug in their heels since he took office, bipartisanship my butt. Regan and Tip O'Neill had very different ideologies, but they were able to work together for the good of the country. We lost that spirit after the Bushies took control. Obama is leading, but you can't negotiate with hard line ideological zealots - not objective thinkers. Who the hell signs a pledge before getting into office that paints them into a corner right off the bat? Hmmm, tea party republicans using the same strategies that got us into this fiscal mess in the first place. Next thing your gonna tell us is that Michelle Bachman is a serious candidate with the experience to become president. Better yet, my money is on Palin to save us...
Good morning David, how are you? Who will you be threatening to beat up today?
Except Obama is no longer in the room. He stormed out after having one of hissy fits, remember?
;o)
Only one chin, did you go on a diet??
I don't know if I qualify as a "regular," and anyway, I'm starting not to believe in fairy tales, and certainly wouldn't say that about President Obama. There are many other adults in Washington, I'm sure. It's just too bad that none of them work in Congress.
As for Eric Cantor, it only took me about five minutes, some time ago, to conclude he was a selfish, spoiled, egotistical, juvenile and yet authoritarian, and somewhat underinformed, man. I won't call him a child because children are generally not that spiteful.
But he's certainly no "adult," either.
Fiesty, GOP tactic of "cut and run" is in its 14th day of state shutdown in MN. The state credit rating has been downgraded fro AAA to AA. Governor Mark Dayton has taken his message of balancing the state budget with an increase in new revenue to the people. He has received support for increase in taxes to help close the 1.8billion gap between him and the Republican controlled legislature.No talks have been held for over a week with Repub. leaders. Dayton siad there is nothing to talk about until they present their plan to close the 1.8B gap. with new revenue instead of one time accounting gimmacks.
Pawlenty's claim that he made tough decisions to balance MN previous budgets is even under scrutiny in today's article in the NYT: "Amid Minnesota Crisis, Pawlenty faces Scrutiny" 7/14/11.Glad to see a little national coverage on what Minnesotan have known for years.
David doesn't have to threaten to beat on anyone - you're doing a good job all by yourself JoAnna.
How can you possibly think it's a good idea to continue with these stupid tax breaks for the super wealthy? Are you one of them?
Are you capable of posting anything without resorting to insults and name-calling? You probably wouldn't have so many of your posts collapsed if you tried to be more civil.
Northstar, is it true that Pawlenty used stimulus money to cover up the deficit so he could claim to balance the budget, while he is now criticizing President Obama because the stimulus failed to create jobs?
At least, that's what I think I read a while back.
p.s. My daughter lives in the Twin Cities.
Cantor did not offer any ideas and that is why President Obama put him in his place. He just interrupted with more talking points, kind of like what you guys (GOP/TP) do here every day, with no compromises or any discussion on what is on the table. It was all about what he wants, not the American people and the President said enough is enough.
No Cantor is playing the role of a spoiled little brat that throws a temper tantrum when he does not get his own way. It is that simple and keeps with the GOP/TP agenda. "I want it all and I want it now". That is not going to work and President Obama told him so to his repugnant face.
George Bush, Dick Cheney and the Republican led Congress from 2001-2007 is awaiting trial and that begins January 2013.
12 years, thousands of troops and civilian deaths and Trillions of dollars later is entirely too long.
The Democrats are welcome to put their tax increase plans into legislation in the Senate (where they have a solid majoirty), have a debate on those increases, and pass that legislation. They can then take that legislation to a conference committee with the House. If nothing else, we'll finally see where the Democrats really stand on there tax increase plans, and what Democrats will actually vote for those increases.
It would be nice to see the Senate pass a budget and say what they stand for. They haven't done so for over 800 days.
JoAnnaSmith1
It has been so easy for Obama up until now. As a Community Organizer, Obama didn't have come up with ideas to fix problems, in fact his job was to create problems, be a pain in the butt to politicians just to get his way
Yea Joanna you know nothing about his time working at the altgeld gardens Housing project on the far southside as a community organizer, he HELPED bridge the gap between city hall and the residence of that hood, that if you accidentally went to, you would never been seen again, it was that bad. it took alot of gutts to be a black guy, raised in a white enviorment all your life to want to go there risk your life to try and help people. i consider my self a person that gets involved(softball coach for my girls 5 yrs, and football for my son 2yrs). i could not have done that!!!! and i know that hood better than he did when he went there out of college for 10k a year.
i remember another community organizer who helped a generation of people to no longer live under jim crow law, he created alot of problems for alot of people from mayors, to governors to presidents. he was killed because he was a pain in the butt for politicans.
call Obama a tax and spend liberal, call him a libbie, or what ever you want, but as i have told No Jo and i will tell you, DON'T MAKE FUN OF COMMUNITY ORGANIZERS. have some respect for MLK!!!!!!! a community Organizer.
Northstar - I'm impressed with Governor Dayton.
He's a man of his convictions.
Something that's seriously lacking in politics these days!
Keep us posted...
But he's certainly no "adult," either
______________________________
AM: I don't recall anyone claiming Cantor was "the only adult in the room". That title is reserved by lefty liberals for Barry. And yesterday's meeting proved that title is wishful thinking at best, and totally delusional at worst.
Sort of like how Barry proved FR lefy liberal claims that SS isn't broke are also wishful thinking/delusional.
Anna Molly:
Your memory is correct and Perry has done the same thing along with others. They took the stimulus money and used to to hide their own mismanagement by using the stimulus money to cover their own budget short falls that they created. Then cry the stimulus did not work, then ask for more stimulus money anyway.
These guys are showing themselves for what hey really are. Repugnat liars and hypocrites all of them in my opinion.
These idiots are playing a very strange game....a cross between musical chairs, (using chairs made of razor blades); Russian roulette, (using fully loaded pistols); and hangman, (using real people instead of stick people)....unfortunately we are the ones that they have playing this strange hydrid game for them while they move us around on their big chess board....in the meantime they strut around and make talking points, while disrupting world economies and riling our trading partners and our creditors.
This needs to stop....and pronto!
Eric Cantor should change his name to Eddie, leave Capital Hill and take his act to "off Broadway".
He's a small man with a small mind. He is drunk with power and is trying to flex muscles he does not have.
He wants to play chick with our POTUS who:... Recited a comedy skit, reamed Donald Trump a new one and order the "hit on bin Laden.
All the while having fun and never giving any sign of distress to the American people.
He was the only man in the Situation room who did not back out of the plan, even though his advisers told he to.
He went with his gut was right, they killed bin Laden. He is right then and he is right now!
President Obama has Testicles of Steel. How soon people forget, so here is the reminder!
Cantor sure runs circles around Obama. Now we see why Obama wanted so much to not be in on these talks, he doesn't like to have his ignorance on display and for him to be embarrassed.
David Walker-
Yesterday, you asserted that you no longer wished to discuss the offensive remarks you've made about Republican majority leader Rep. Eric Cantor, who is the highest-ranking Jewish member in the history of the House Of Representatives.
Then, you promptly re-opened the discussion while responding to another regular First Read blogger.
For the record, here are two of the comments you've made about Rep. Cantor:
"...he is willing to sacrifice this country on the altar of his true god-MONEY/POWER"
and;
"Cantor has sold himself for 30 pieces of silver."
The National Director of the Anti-Defamation League, Abraham H. Foxman, who is also Jewish and presumably knows a bit about anti-Semitism as a result of his current job title and life experience, has actually addressed the content of the views you've expressed about Eric Cantor.
Again...
For the record, Mr. Foxman has said:
"Why is there such a preoccupation in anti-Semitism about Jews and money? That's because when you go back to deicide, the other side of it is that Judas sold out Jesus not for theology but for 30 pieces of silver. So that becomes another fundamental basis for anti-Semitism: 'The Jews are greedy, they'll do anything for money, even sell out the Lord'."
It is conceivable, I suppose, that you honestly didn't believe that the views you expressed with regard to Rep. Cantor were anti-Semitic, David.
Clearly, Mr. Foxman's comments suggest that they ARE anti-Semitic, wouldn't you say?
Your stubborn refusal to acknowledge the reprehensible nature of your previous remarks about Eric Cantor requires that any similar future remarks be put into their proper context.
I'm prepared to offer up that context as necessary.
Or...you could follow your own counsel, and simply drop the matter.
Your choice, David.
In any event, rest assured:
I promise to quote you accurately.
Obama says you're not taking my credit card away!!! I will not stop spending. You give me more money or I'll make up lies and tell everyone you were mean to me!!! I'll tell the media to tell everyone out there how mean the successful people are even though they did work their tails off trying to get ahead!!!
Well, I'm not one of those who think that, anyway. But repeating it over and over doesn't get us to an answer, does it? it still leaves the moral question, and you know it does. The moral question undercuts every argument that benefits should be cut, rather than increasing revenue to shore up benefits. You can't just steal money from Grandma's cookie jar, and then say, "oh, well, it's gone now." You have to put the money back.
Or isn't that what adults tell their children, joe?
The Silent Majority
Lawrence O'Donnell's Last Word is the Talk of the Town these days. Videos from his programs are being spread all over the internets.
Last night he stood up for the 100% President Obama supporters vs. the left. It was nice. And long overdue. Lawrence is one of the few tv hosts who thinks independently. His take on things is quite different from everyone else's.
I love his show. Love it.
I know many in the political arena up here. They've been at it since the 1970's. They don't agree with all President Obama has done, but they have his back and support him 100%. They have zero respect for the left.
You don't become a blue state by spending all damn day on the internet bitching they tell me. You get out there and get involved. You talk to people. You network. You attend meetings hosted by Democrats. You raise money.
That's how you win. Again, these people worked for Dukakis, Clinton, Carter, Kennedy, Deval Patrick, Barack Obama. They haven't given up on anybody in the Democratic Party.
They just keep at it.
THEY ARE THE BASE.
And their #1 priority is getting President Barack Obama re-elected.
I do find it interesting how the same people here on the FR blogs always seem to get first posting. How is that? It's become conspicuous to me.
What's the problem with letting the US default? Michele Bachmann says everything will be fine. What more information do we need than her telling us everything will be fine? I don't understand….
That second statement is dripping with sarcasm in case anyone is wondering.
God it's great to be independent. :)
The problem with Obama is that he always thinks he's the 'smartest man in the room!" Well he ain't! His background of organizing neighborhoods has not helped him a bit in this new position. It's been a bad week for him... first his threat to withhold social security checks was met with chuckles, China slaps his wrist, and he walks out of a debt meeting in a hissy fit!
I also just heard that the White House ordered the Health Department to mail out surveys to black and hispanic voters that included $2 in cash in the envelope. The cash an encouragement for the receipients to complete the survey and mail it back! Lol, doesn't the US Postal Service frown on mailing cash? And how many of the cash filled government envelopes will be tossed in the garbage w/o even being opened up! LOL! Aren't we trying to cut spending now!!! Yet another failed idea from Obama! I bet he's wishing that he was back in that Chicago neighborhood!
Unless you are making $250,000.00 a year, no one from either party is talking about raising your taxes.
Where’s the trickle down?
Trickle down only works when there is a mechanism of action in place to make the wealthy spend the money so it will trickle down.
Today you have a buyers market in the housing market, with no competition, and the wealthy are not buying, in fact they are holding fast.
Isn’t this where the trickle down is supposed to start, the wealthy buy up the foreclosed homes, and then rent them back to the middle class?
I say unless the US puts a tax in place that forces the wealthy to spend some of their wealth now… the wealthy will keep all that trickle down money in the bank until a true depression hits the country, and then they can have every home, and business in the USA for song about money.
JoAnnaSmith1
Cantor sure runs circles around Obama. Now we see why Obama wanted so much to not be in on these talks, he doesn't like to have his ignorance on display and for him to be embarrassed.
yea he is running circles because he is a slippy weesle and obama can't catch him, unless he has over all on. your something else, these guys are trying to keep what they want and only what they want while, the main sticking point is that Obama what to change the tax codes as the debt comission said they should be, he has put SS and medicare on the table, something he SAID he would not do.
Hey MAW, the congress just send another 42 billion on HLS i wish those goofs would stop spend as well, they DON'T want to draw down in afgan either, more money they (GOP) keep spending.
Obama keeps this message on a 3x5 card in front of him during the debt ceiling meetings. It's his pledge of allegiance to himself.
Perhaps Senator Coburn, as one of the debt commission members who so worked hard to address a solution to the nation's crushing debt, could somehow persuade President Obama to finally accept the Plan produced by that bipartisan panel.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
MB-
You know I'm with you on this, but it isn't just the President or the democrats who see Sen. Coburn as a voice in the wilderness on embracing the debt commission. It sadly exposes both sides whenever someone like Senator Coburn speaks out for a reasoned bi-partisan solution. It isn't like his colleagues are going to rally behind him...
It is great enterainment to watch how the rethugs (particularly Cantor) are getting up against a wall and have to learn (perhaps) to compromise. That is how Washington used to work. The President is standly firm and that earns my respect.
Go Mr. President....you have support out here.
Actually, no... when the government stops meddling and fosters a predictable and competitive business climate businesses will feel comfortable in committing to a growth strategy. This means they will hire people who will have salaries and then feel secure in committing to their personal growth. They will then buy up foreclosed homes. See how it works?
What's with you left-wing liberals? You think the government can solve all problems. Sorry, it just ain't so. They cause more problems than they solve. Every time they try to "force" someone to do something they end up making more bureaucracy and a mess. This is one of the worst ideas.
The majority of these people are not on salary..they own and run small businesses. Costs get passed onto the consumer...hows that for trickle down. Dont worry, taxes will be raised without a doubt. But dont be an idiot and think you are going to avoid it all in this disaster we are now in
More proof of the corporate media's "liberal" bias: Last night while reporting on the debt ceiling monkey business, CNN continuously ran the banner "Obama walks out of meeting", thus buying in to Cantor's lie and misleading the public. With garbage like that, CNN is in a good position to fill Fox News position should Rupert Murdoch's evil empire collapse.
The President is exercising leadership, and using the "bully pulpit" of his office to address the imasse in the House. This is actually quite similar to the efforts made by President Roosevelt in 1936-37, when Republican opposition to expanded New Deal programs had brought about a new recession.
Time is short. If action is to occur, it must happen today and tomorrow. Perhaps the President should take a leaf from FDR's book and actually present a fully-drafted bill embodying his policies. That is a formal action that requires the members of the House and Senate to perform.
As I've mentioned here before, and others have also recently discussed, normally President Obama takes the course of stating policy objectives, then leaves the formulation of the legislation to the members of Congress to undertake. Since personally initiat8ing this round of negotiations, the President has stepped away from his usual method of working and properly taken a more direct role in resolving the issues.
I echo David Walker's sentiments above that it is encouraging and refreshing to see Mr. Obama doing so.
As for Senator Eric Cantor, he is an honest politician, in the sense that Mark Twain defined one: Once bought, he stays bought. Sen. Cantor has been bought by the Grover Norquist front organization, Americans for Tax Reform. What that means is that President Obama faces one problem in his negotiating sessions - the actual decision-maker for the ultra-right is not in the room. Instead, Grover Norqust huddles in his offices on K Street and makes sure that his hired politicians all remember he's constantly watching them.
Now, folks, this statement is not a typical rant against "corrupt politicians" - there's factual material to support it. And the objective is more than just holding firm on a Tea Party position - it's a battle to the death for Norquist and others who seek to wreck the Democratic Party, privatize government operations to funnel massive amounts of public money to select private businesses, and permanently disable or dismantle government regulations of almost every kind.
Thomas Frank, in The Wecking Crew, gives a detailed picture of the methods used - methods that Sen. Cantor has benefitted from. Begin the reading on page 190 of the Franks volume:
In a footnote to that text, Frank explains the K Street Project was mounted by Norquist's so-called "think tank," Americans for Tax Reform. The footnote quotes Norquist as explaining, "The K Street project promotes the hire of lobbyists at corporations and trade associations who understand free market economics, who support their principled postions for free trade, tort law abuse, and for lower and more transparent taxation."
Frank then spends several pages showing that while Norquist failed in his early years to get 100% cooperation with the K Street project, he was somewhat successful, and learned metter how to tighten the noose - using campaign money funneled through his think tank to support people like Eric Cantor, hiring officeholders who left public service to lobby, hiring staffers from Congressional offices friendly to his conservative cause, and, essentially, completely corrupting the Federal political process.
So, Grover Norquist, a devious and cunning worm who has never been elected to anything, is the puppet master for Eric Cantor and every other Republican who signed Norquist's now-infamous "pledge" to refuse to vote for any tax reform other than complete reduction of rates for corporations and the wealthy. Norquist has channeled the money and clout of major corporations and trade associations to back up his threats, thus keeping his bought-and-paid-for Congressional constituents in line.
Senator Cantor, by taking a leading role in the negotiations with President Obama, is the nay-saying spear carrier for Norquist. So it's time for President Obama to obviate Senator Eric Cantor, go around him, and take a different approach to the battle. Quickly.
Nevertheless, dangerfield-
Coburn actually has signed onto the debt commission Plan; President Obama has not.
I believe that you have suggested that President Obama could use the presidential bully pulpit to advocate for the adoption of the Plan of his debt commission.
I would argue that, until he actually does that, we'll never know how many Republican votes...or for that matter, Democratic votes...there actually are in Congress for the Plan of the debt commission.
Pat, Boston:
Lawrence O'Donnell is an intellectual powerhouse. I don't know when I've ever seen him come out on the losing end of a debate. He is thoughtful, extremely well-educated, and wow, when he goes after someone - look out.
That's a guy you can quote without worrying about the accuracy of what he said. Why more people don't go there for the correct interpretation of daily Washington events is a mystery to me.
At seven o'clock CST, he's in my living room - helluva guest.
‘Eric, don't call my bluff.’
You don't usually tell the other side that you are 'bluffing'.
When you get mad, you usually make bad decisions. It sounds like the the President is up to his usual tricks - Not telling people what he would really cut (to avoid criticism), and thinking his vague 'rhetoric' will be enough.
For almost 3 years now, Obama and Reid have refused to actually present a realistic Budget. Where is your plan, Mr. President?
You can't just steal money from Grandma's cookie jar, and then say, "oh, well, it's gone now." You have to put the money back.
_________________________________
AM: We've discussed this before and I won't get into the details again since it would be a waste of our time. Just the conclusion in the 2011 SS Trustees report: Even with all the borrowing by the Treasury Dept paid back in full, with interest, SS will still run out of money to pay promised benefits in the mid 2030s. Those are the words of the all Barry-appointed Trustess, not mine. And it's likely to be a "best case" scenerio that will end up with a shorter time horizon as time goes on.
Downgrade? HA!
The banksters and rating agencies are IN on the government scam along with Obama and don't want the free handouts to stop.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Barack Obama has received more Wall Street contributions than ANY President in history.
Anna, Yes, Pawlenty used one time Fed stimulus money, delaying state K-12 payments to school districts and tobacco settlement money (which was suppose to be used for heathcare). Dayton says increase in new revenue and spending cuts must be part of the new budget.
The "no new tax" Repub leaders are holding, but some GOP legislators are speaking publically about new revenue of casino gambling to raise new revenue. Maybe there will be some movement on their side.
The twin cities is a wonderful place to live as your daughter can attest to. But if she like drinking beer, she might need to stock up. It seems that MillerCoors did not renew their beverage licience in time before the state shutdown. Once it is off the shelf they cannot restock. Both sides might end up in court. The courts are still operating.
And as a final note: the two winners in this shut down is an uptick in pawn shop business and legal disputes.Lawyers are busy with their construction/developer clients because of loss time in their projects. As an attorney you know how that works! LO
We have a special master who is reviewing for the courts various pleas for relief during this shutdown.
Jim in Houston-1509351
How come that didn't work for the eight years that Bush was in office? Looks like it FAILED to work pretty spectacularly when the economy nearly imploded in 2008.
I see you're yet another dishonest wingnut. I've never read anything by a "left-wing" liberal claiming that government can solve all problems, or anything remotely close to that. But G. W. Bush and the current Republican Congress have shown that government can sure CREATE problems, and big ones.
Pat:
Great comments!! Your Boston lawyer, Larry O'Donnell is the only anchor I now watch. Don't watch Rachel as she acts "silly". Don't watch Ed as he lacks the insight to see the big picture. Don't watch Keith either. Lawrence beats out Keith.
Cantor and Boehner will lose in this contest with our President. Cantor has a big mouth with no brains. Boehner just doesn't have any brains. Perhaps they are pickled.
On a serious note the GOP/TP is torn between the big money banks and the Tea Party. There is also a split in leadership as Boehner supports the banks and Cantor is in bed with the Tea Party. I think in divorce language, there are irreconcilable differences.
David Walker,
I have been following the discussion, primarily with you and Mixed Bag, regarding who is a Semite and who is not. You have also said that Eric Cantor sold out YOUR COUNTRY for power, money and 40 pieces of silver. Specifically, you wanted definitive proof that Cantor was a Semite. Mixed Bag's post today, again addresses this issue.
Hope I got that right.
Eric Cantor is the only Jewish Republican serving in the House. Why that matters I don’t know and why people waste time keeping stats like that is mindboggling. You, however, want to take that a step further and want proof that he is a “Semite”. I wonder why.
You do realize that one of the oldest anti- Semitic arguments for abolishing the State of Israel and returning it to the Palestinians is the Jews who live there are not Semites. Their contention is that the Sephardic Jews are Spanish and the Ashkenazim Jews are Central/Eastern European. In their minds this means that these people have no right to claim Israel as their homeland and should return the State of Israel to the Palestinians, the TRUE Semites. The argument is specious of course, as a simple review of history will explain. After ancient Israel was invaded, over run and burned to the ground the 12 tribes of Israel fled for their safety and remained dispersed throughout the known world. So I wonder David, is this the reason you want to know if Eric Cantor is Semitic? Do you want ALL of Israel to become a Palestinian State?
Then there is your awful choice of words. When someone is talking about a member of the Jewish religion and uses the age old anti-Semitic slurs about Jews and money and references the 30 pieces of silver that was received for turning Christ over to the Romans, that language is blatantly anti-Semitic. Just so you don’t quarrel over the term, I am using it as it is generally understood in the modern day. You used that identical language. I would go with the excuse that you choice your words poorly but you repeated them over and over and then defended them. Mixed Bag has pointed out to you that members of the Jewish community, the Anti- Defamation League, has called that language anti-Semitic. Something is not kosher David, pun intended.
A simple explanation as to your words and intent would clear this misunderstanding today.
Joe in Albany
You can hide your comment history on your webpage by going to "customize column" on the black tool bar at the top, then click "hide" on any features you don't want seen.
In the tool bar you will also see a tab labeled "groups." You can click on that and easily set up your own group, "TeaPartiersRus" for example. But be sure to check "private" when you set up the group, otherwise some snoopy liberal may google your name and pull up the transcript of your chat room where you vent about those lousy liberals. If the liberals are really nasty, they may then post clips of your transcript for all to see and spin the comments to mean something they don't.
I hope that's helpful. :
Mixed Bag
Don't you ever tire of repeating yourself endlessly? No, Obama hasn't "signed on" to the debt commission recommendations. Being the president and all, commissions don't dictate what to do to the president; they simply provide recommendations that he can use as guidelines to develop policies. And ironically, Obama chose to offer the Republicans ad deal on the budget with FEWER tax increases than what the commission recommended. (I'll bet we don't hear Bag complaining about deviation from this omniscient commission's recommendations).
Just some general questions:
BJs65:
How can you possibly think it's a good idea to continue with these stupid tax breaks for the super wealthy?
Other than the extension of the Bush Tax cuts that Obama extended for 2 years, what other “stupid tax breaks for the super wealthy” are you talking about?
Navy:
President Obama has put entitlements up for DISCUSSION - meaning lets talk about them and see what we can agree on. They have already ID several DOD budget decreases and others
Can you be a little more specific like what exactly is on the table?
Navy:
Cantor did not offer any ideas and that is why President Obama put him in his place.
Wow…and you know this how? Please share what Cantor did say?
Independent Redneck Va.:
Eric Cantor is beneath contempt and may be guilty of treason.
That would be under Article 3 Section 3 of the US Constitution or as defined by Salon.com?
So what's your point? Are you suggesting that this is somehow a reason NOT to pay back what has been already been stolen? Because that doesn't wash. The first thing we need to do is pay it back, and when there is room to breathe, we can worry about what happens in the 2030s.
I see no other way to color it, joe. I hope you see it the same way.
Anothernposter mentioned this, so I went on a google search
http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/12/why-is-the-government-mailing-you-2/
So, despite the misgivings of NIH and the contractors doing the surveys, OMB ordered the mailing of $2 each to random people in order to get them to take a survey- they get to keep the money whether they do or not, by the way.
Since NIH is really only interested in input from African Americans and Hispanic Americans, you might think they relied on Census data in order to maximize the odds of their getting the input from those groups.
You would be wrong.
So, what does this cost? $336,666 a year- and it does not expire until 2013.
This is another shining example of how Obama wastes taxpayer funds.
Start by cutting 30% of HHS budget. Do the same for DoE. It is patently obvious they have WAY too much cash on hand, if these are the programs they come up with in order to spend it all.
David Walker,
Your post #1.3 is one of the most direct, clear and factual post on this subject I have had the pleasure of reading. I particularly agree with your assessment of the "steele backbone" of our President. I must admit, I was questioning his appetite for confrontation, but have now glimsed his resolve in his dealings on the debt ceiling limits. I believe that Mr. Cantor, and coharts, now also have an idea of Obama's resolve regarding this topic! Congratulations on a critically written factual post!
MB-
I would argue that we will never know. The debt commission will be the great "what if" as our national farce limps into August...
Ira Lapin
So it's politically incorrect to criticize a power-mad liar like Cantor just because he's Jewish? As much as it may dismay you, polls show that Jewish Americans still overwhelmingly support President Obama despite the lies being told by Republicans and the far-right Israeli prime minister that Obama ever asserted that Israel must go back to its 1967 borders.
President Obama and the progressive/liberals are speaking for the lower 30% of Americans. The same Americans that want to continue to get their freebies. The other 70% of Americans are tired of this crap. Grow up progressives and tell your followers to start taking care of themselves. America wasn't built with entitlements and redistribution of wealth. Now that we have all seen their agenda it is time to stand up to them and say NO MORE. The election of Obama has really opened a lot of eyes and people are finally standing up. Take a look at the polls and you will see that the majority don't want the debt ceiling raised. They want cuts in spending.
Jim in Houston-1509351
You say:
when the government stops meddling and fosters a predictable and competitive business climate businesses will feel comfortable in committing to a growth strategy
You can't have it both ways…. Either the government stops meddling, OR it Fosters.
That's why you right wing "My way or the high way" zealots have a problem understanding government's role in modern capitalism.
You want your cake and want to eat it too, and cry when the cakes pulled out of your mouth by someone who understands the mechanisms required to foster a predictable and competitive business climate.
I don't care what you try to label me, with I like to bust a bully's bubble …
Next time try making all your words in "Bold", that way your oxymoron statements will stick out even further.
Joe in Albany,
A question for First Read/Newsvine:
I have noticed that a number of FR posters have their Newsvine pages sanitized by eliminating any history of their posts. Is that a choice that is available to all posters, or is it only available to a select few elite posters that have “insider” status (aka the (formerly) secret libsrus chat room gang)?
I have been asking the same thing, and nothing. They blocked their history when the whole LibRus was exposed. However, they still use the history option to attack others.
Good morning, comrade Houston.
I never tire of it...just as you never tire of endlessly responding to it.
Continue to march, Houston.
You and I are like the coyote and the roadrunner clocking in.
You show no signs whatsoever of actually enjoying our back-and-forth, yet here you are.
lol
This is news.
From what state is Eric Cantor a Senator?
I'm not going to defend Bush. His policies weren't certainly not always the best example of fiscal conservatism. But you need to realize that the Democrats were in control of Congress at the end of Bush's term. Pelosi and Reid should be held equally (if not more) accountable for the recession.
Why are you calling me dishonest? I haven't lied about anything. But, since you seem to be having trouble understanding how liberals believe government can solve all problems let me connect the dots from my previous post.
LetMeExplain said:
This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Here we have a left-wing liberal can solve this problem by imposing a tax.
But G. W. Bush and the current Republican Congress have shown that government can sure CREATE problems, and big ones.
See my previous thoughts on Bush, Congress and government ineptitude. But honestly, Bush has been gone for two and half years now. Time to move on and find some other excuse for the miserable state of the American economy.
@ Northstar ~ Thanks for the response.
I love the Cities, and so does my daughter. She does drink beer, but I think she'll manage in the interim.
It's hard to see how the shutdown can possibly help Republicans as all it does is expose Pawlenty's actions for wider scrutiny. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.
If you mean to say that lawyers make money in good times and bad, that's sometimes, but not always, the case. Even the legal profession has seen a downturn in this economy.
Wisconsin is watching what is happening in Minnesota closely, as I'm sure you're all watching us. By the way, we've long since gone through the tobacco settlement money, too, and we've probably tapped out on taxing the casinos. So, it will be interesting to see how it all works out. And it's scary to think, as I am beginning to do, that it might not work out.
Maybe we could just raises taxes on Miller/Coors. On second thought, what our "pro-business" governor did instead was to put new regulations on craft brewers that hurt them and specifically benefit Miller/Coors.
Sigh.
Ira Lapin-
Thanks for your excellent post.
I've been disappointed and surprised at the silence from so many of the liberal/progressives here regarding David Walker's comments about Rep. Eric Cantor.
I know you tend to be quite independent in your political views, but...given the long tradition of Jewish liberalism, how is it possible that so few of the First Read regulars have so little to say about this?
Can you explain this, Ira?
Mr. Foxman's view of the matter is unambiguous.
The comments are anti-Semitic, period.
Thanks for the info Amy. I do not feel the need to hide from anything I post here, as some other posters obviously do. I also will not be setting up a secret chat room group as I have previously expressed the opinion to Mark Murray that those are for the weak-minded that need the security blanket reassurance of groupthink, like libsrus.
Houston!..
Read my post...I'm not talking about the '67 borders.
Read Mixed Bag's post...he's not talking about '67 borders either.
We both feel Mr. Walker made some anti-Semitic comments and would like him, not you, to clarify them.
It's about Antisemitism Houston and nothing else.
What I find depressing is the GOP rhetoric and the rhetoric of half you posters. It's time to expose the terrible levels of inconsistency and hypocrisy in what you say.
When Cantor and Boehner walks out= "It's perfect fine, more power to them". When Obama walks out= "What a coward, immature President!"
Get a life, all of you.
The Republican-Tea Bagger collapse chickens are at it again.
Houston -
The President has been thoughtful about addressing the debt commission's recommendations - and with good reason. Many economists, Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz among them, have heavily criticized the commission's recommendations. Stiglitz, in a March 28 article, called the Simpson-Bowles plan a "suicide pact." Read the story, which I also seeded to the 'Vine, here:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/28/news/economy/budget_stiglitz/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin
In fact, at this moment of some delicacy in the economic recovery, many economists think that the GOP/TP demand to CUT spending is a serious mistake. Instead, they urge a second stimulus, aimed more at employment and investment, to create a solid basis for restored growth.
Stiglitz, in Freefall: America, Free markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy, wrote on p. 74,:
The right wingers in Congress, of course, will not support any such things. And the more they oppose any significant effort to enhance recovery and growth, and thus boost employment, the more, in fact, the so-called "Obama Economy" shifts ownership - by the ultra-right and Libertarians, who caused this mess in the first place.
Obama told Cantor - dont call my bluff? So Obama pretty much told him he was bluffing, right? I am think he did.
From what state is Eric Cantor a Senator?
__________________________________________
The state of Delusion, which is the only state on Planet Liberal.
Mixed Bag..
I'm amazed also MB. Perhaps because they missed what he said or chose to ignore it.
Given the history of the Jewish people with the Democratic Party and the liberal movement, it does amaze me.
I want to put this to bed once and for all.
For Joe in Albany and the rest of you knuckleheads that think there is some sort of 'conspiracy' by the Libs R Us group, learn how to use Newsvine's features before you come on here spouting drivel showing how ignorant you REALLY are.
And yes, Joe in Albany, this is especially directed towards YOU.
You need to MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
USNDV
When you and Mr. Obama can show us his plan for stopping the deficit spending, eliminating the debt and balancing the budget, than you will have something to talk about. Until then, Mr Obama's desire to continue deficit spending, lack of a plan to pay down and eliminate the debt and his opposition to working towards a balanced budget must be stopped. Please tell US all how Mr Obama and his supporters can cry and scream about the Bush era spending and how that ran US into a "ditch", when Mr Obama has been deficit spending and running up the debt far more than Bush and the Dems in control of Congress the last two years if the Bush era ever dreamed of? And don't give US the bs line about raising taxes, because the tax increases Obama wants will not put a dent in the debt and will only be used to continue deficit spending. He has not stated that he would agree to use any increased tax revenues to exclusively pay down the debt. While small debts, from time to time, are manageable and can be over come in a relatively short period of time, the $14 trillion plus and growing debt we currently have is not small by any means and is obviously not being managed to any degree other than making it even bigger/worse.
The voters know this and so does Mr. Obama. The only reason he is not willing to bite the bullet and do what needs to be done is because he knows that if he does so it will cause pain among the voters and in all likelihood doom his chances at reelection. So instead , he is choosing to kick the can down the road, yet again, in favor of shoring up his hopes at reelection. He lacks leadership plain and simple. If Mr Obama was a real leader he would tell the Repubs, that in exchange for some tax increases and loop hole closing, he will agree to fully back the Balanced Budget Amendment and use the bully pulpit to rally the Dems (the hard part, see recent statement made by Obama below*) and the country(the easy part) behind the Balanced Budget Amendment. That way we won't have to keep continually revisiting the debt ceiling issue and continued deficit spending. The budget will be mandated to be balanced by the Constitution and the only question will be what levels of spending and taxation the country can afford to maintain our place in the world as a global economic super power, instead of becoming a bankrupt third world nation (which is where we are currently headed at a rapid pace.)
*“The vast majority of Democrats would prefer, frankly, not to do anything about these debt and deficit problems.”
And make no mistake about it, if the Repubs were not in control of Congress, Obama and the Dems would have continued right along with their massive deficit spending, increased taxation and debt building. The discussion taking place right now would be non existent. Obama has been dragged to the table kicking and screaming and now he wants everone to believe that he is the adult, while he engages is fear mongering and scare tactics to try and sustain his bogus position.
Ira, don't hold your breath waiting for a serious response. It's been my experience that when you confront bigots, first try bloviate, then they sulk.
As to the silence of the liberals here, I remind you that silence confers assent.
I don't get your point. Through its meddling (over-regulation) it is not fostering (encouraging, promoting, nurturing) a fertile business climate. I suspect you understood what I meant though and were just parsing words to be argumentative.
This is from a Tea Party Leader: We'll Take The Debt Ceiling Hike If You Put Gay Troops Back In The Closet
******************************************************************************************************************
*Angry Tea Party Stirring up GOP Revolt
http://www.teaparty.org/article.php?id=1011
“If the GOP thinks they can raise the debt ceiling and get away with it, maybe they should start packing their bags, 2012 is not that far away.” Steve Eichler J.D. - TeaParty.org
******************************************************************************************************************
This isn't about the Debt Ceiling.
Mitch McConnell has a vendetta agenda that he is obsessed with: the 2012 election.
Foolishly, Boehner, Cantor & Co. are terrified of the TeaParty *.
Debt, deficits, subsidies, loopholes, ....these are just "buzz" words. The (R) Party is focused on gays, abortion and saving Bush's tax gift to the wealthy.
That "wealthy" population will in turn DONATE heavily to the (R) campaigns, thus insuring that they KEEP Bush's gift.
China, the Chamber of Commerce, Economists, Businesses....no one can get through to the stubborn (R)'s.
Apparently the "family values" and economics brought into Congress by the TeaParty Freshman have NOTHING to do with logic.
And yes, Joe in Albany, this is especially directed towards YOU.
_________________________________________
Pete: you really should consider anger managment treatment. You're on your way to a major stroke-out.
LMAO@U!!!!!!
Hey Navy, had things to do. I checked through the posts. I see you still haven't posted exactly what the President put on the table. A bit like Jody yesterday claiming that there were $4T in cuts but couldn't actually name any.
CORRECTION TO MY POST #1.52: I mistakenly referred to Eric Cantor as a Senator. Of course, he's the No. 2 GOP official in the House of Representatives.
And he's still the wholly-owned creature of Grover Norquist.
Sir, I remember Ronald Reagan , and you're no Ronald Reagan. Since Mister Obama wants to take his ball and go home, lets not invite him to the next game in 2012. Reagan was called the master communicator. Obama is the master orator. Too bad so many haven't figured our what they are paying to have Obama to perform oral on them. Yes, Obama sucks.
Cantor has exposed Obama? That's a laugh! Cantor is a moronic shill for the Tea Party whose lies are becoming pathological. The modern-day GOP and their sheeples that spew their inanities like No Joe and Joanna Smith1 on this blog are adept at taking stupidity and inanities to a whole new level. They don't appreciate nuance, context, history or its implications. They just try and rewrite s**t or make it up when FACTS don't jibe with the conspiratorial nonsense concocted in their vacuous Bagga minds.
Anyone with minimal smarts and aptitude recognizes that no serious conversation about deficit reduction can take place without increasing revenue on the other side of the ledger. You simply cannot decrease the deficit by spending/tax cuts alone. The Republican Tea Party has offered nothing, NOTHING, in the way of meaningful compromise to address this country's economic ills other than proposing tired drivel that has been disproven in every, EVERY Republican administration that has touted them. Despite all the tax cuts in Dubya's era we lost jobs! Yet, they believe that the country consists of enough dummies with short-term memories like them to think that those same policies will yield different results. The President is willing to stake his presidency to do the right thing for the American people while a bunch of juveniles whose heads are lodged somewhere in Norquist's porky nether orifice simply position themselves for political success in 2012 at all costs. Now who's the real patriot? Jack wagons!
Ira Lapin-
What most disturbs me is the suggestion that Eric Cantor's behavior is based not on his political beliefs and philosophy (however mistaken one feels they might be), but on his quest for money and power.
If a conservative here made the exact same comments about a wealthy Democratic Jewish politician (perhaps my own Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), for example), that conservative would surely face immediate condemnation from the majority of the folks blogging here...and, appropriately so.
This is just sad, Ira.
President Obama is not proposing repealing the Bush Tax Cuts. They will continue until they are slated to expire in 2012. One of the proposals increased the taxable income from the $250,000 mark to $500,000. So only those with taxable incomes greater than $500,000 after 2012 would have the income taxes raised.
Also the Senate pass a pseudo unbinding tax bill the other day that raised this mark to $1,000,000. SO only those people that have a taxable income of over ONE MILLION DOLLARS would see any tax increase. Every GOP/TP voted NO and the bill failed with 51 Yea and 49 Nay. Minority vote wins again.
Interesting note: The income for top 2% has increased 19% to an average of $2.9 Million while the income of the middle class has declined $2500.
If pointing out that Eric Cantor is a bought and paid for jackhole makes one an anti-semite, so be it.
Doesn't change the truth of the statement.
And it doesn't change the fact that those are losing on the merits of their arguments often like to create a distraction to cover for that fact.
We all know that nothing that is typed in explanation will be sufficient for you professional malcontents.
Carry on.
How about that this is the most condescending president ever?
http://island-adv.com/2011/07/obama-on-how-professional-politicians-not-voters-better-understand-importance-of-raising-debt-ceiling/
This was his response when told that public opinion was against a raise to the debt ceiling. Professional politicians are the exact reason we're in this mess and they are the ones that don't understand debt. What do they care....it's not their debt..it's ours.
From this article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/13/obama-debt-ceiling-meeting_n_897834.html
Yeah, that's Obama. Faced with having to make cuts, he saves a little and spends more than he saves. Another extension to unemployment??? Bernake is calling for another stimulus?? Hey...Mr. President...you're supposed to be CUTTING SPENDING, not adding to it.
Lost in all of this is that the cuts aren't nearly enough. $2.5 trillion over 10 years puts the debt at $30 trillion in 2021. We need a balanced budget amendment.
...and we have a winner for the most uninformed comment of the day. All Obama cares about is his political career! He won't accept a short term increase because it would come up again during his campaign (see the news on Monday). Does that sound like someone that is concerned about the country or someone that is concerned about having to do his job instead of campaigning?
Walking out of a meeting is leadership?? Maybe if you're a democrat from Wisconsin you'd consider this leadership.
Up for discussion?? Identify ONE DOLLAR in savings the President has proposed. You can't....because he hasn't. He has no specifics as usual. By the way, you do know that the DOD budget approved last week was $9 billion LESS than Obama asked for?
What does the GOP/TP have to compromise on? They aren't the ones doing all the spending. They aren't the ones allocating $20 billion to pay unions, they aren't the ones trying to build a high speed train, they aren't the ones approving $20 billion to El Salvador to fight gangs. The cuts need to be made by the administration, and that is democratic.
Scheduling question: What time will Obama be walking out of today's debt ceiling talks?
Nashville_fan..
If pointing out that Eric Cantor is a bought and paid for jackhole...
I think he's a bought and paid for jackhole also. The man is detestable.
Now....how does that make Mr. Walkers remarks less offensive???
That's funny because there's a video of Chris Van Hollen (part of the Democratic House Leadership I believe), talking about raising the cap on Social Security contributions. I believe that is currently around $106,000. So that would be a 6% increase.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/ns/msnbc_tv-morning_joe/
Also, when posters here are talking about this being the lowest taxes ever, or 60 years or whatever, what exactly are you referring to? Is this the lowest revenues (in total), the lowest rates, the lowest effective rates, the lowest total rates (including state and local). Please be specific.
John a, Your history of G. Norquist and his minions helps to see the bigger picture in politics today. Here in MN any moderate GOP like our former governor Arnie Carlson is called a renegade by his own party. Former Governor Pawlenty did past a 75cent cigarette tax as part of one of his earlier budgets and was called on the carpet by Norquist group. He now calls it the "Health Improvement Fee". He will not admit under any circumstances that it was a tax.
Kinda like pointing out that Obama is just a continuation of Bush and being called racist.
Ira:
Being offended is a personal thing. If you are offended, that is certainly your right. I am not. Requiring everyone to be offended because you are strikes me as more than a little odd, but here at First Read, maybe not so much.
David Walker said nothing improper or untrue in my opinion. And yet you and a few other malcontents here have decided that your personal offense is equal to a verdict of guilty, and those who don't share your view have become anti-semites by refusing to parrot your offense.
You folks don't get to decide what is offensive for everyone. Typical conservative tactic. Not working with me.
Sometimes I get so disheartened by the daily back and forth of the comments here, on both sides. Same old party talking points, same old insults, same old, same old, kinda like Congress. We perpatrate the circle of madness, no one changes their minds, no one listens to reason, name calling ensues, and what have we accomplished? Meanwhile the nation spirals ever downward to the black hole that no one knows what is on the other side. I feel like we are living in Lewis Carroll's, "Through the Looking Glass", or otherwise known as "Alice in Woderland". That was a book, this is real life, and real life solutions need to be searched for, found, and we must find people that can implement them. Our nation is at stake, our kids futures are at stake, the world is counting on us, the US, to lead the world out of this mess. Am I wrong?
Umm, so why did the Senate reject Obama's FY12 budget by a vote of 97-0?
Still ignoring me, Nash?
I can never be sure...
Alan NJ:
You are now on ignore. It is apparent you have neither the inclination nor the skills to enter into any debate.
KingK:
Sorry, not playing you game of misdirection. Tell us one thing that the GOP/TP has compromised on during these Debt Ceiling talks. Just one thing. President Obama put all entitlements on the table, what are you guys putting up in return???????
Show us one thing the the GOP/TP has done in the last 2 years plus that moved this country forward? Just one thing.
Where are the jobs they promised, where is their plan to stimulate the economy, why are the so bent on weaken Education.
Come on, tell us. Interested people want to know.
Look, President Obama cannot save this country alone, the GOP/TP needs to step up to the plate and help. But you guys already know that. That is why you are stalling. Well, we are wise to your plan and we will see how it all plays out come 2012.
Alan, NJ:
If you can't stand the heat, take up ballroom dancing. I have been called quite a few unkind things here as well. I have been accused of crimes here. It is what it is.
Basically, what we have here, is a bunch of folks who can't back up their talking points with facts trying to create a distraction by WHIIIIIIIIINING loudly and pretending like they are the issue.
I hate to break to you folks, but we come here to discuss politics and policy, not you feelings.
I'm sure Oprah has a blog . . . maybe some of ya'll should check it out.
Just like Obama....no cuts in spending....just tax increases.
U.S. Navy...I have read most of the comments on this post...and by far, yours have been the most specific, the most precise, and the least biased. On the other hand, I have read those of someone named Jo Ann which are the most hateful, the most childish, and the most blistery... Some people are well informed, and some are just not happy people. Navy...you are well informed!
Sorry I missed this because it was collapsed.
As I said yesterday the Republican position of no revenue increases is indefensible. I would like to start with the Ryan tax proposal on removing deductions, which favor the wealthy, and lower the rates to a level that will generate a revenue increase. I try and use the President's return as an example. He paid an effective rate of 26% on 1.7M. I would aim to remove deductions and lower the top rate 30% - 31% which would be an effective increase of around 5%.
Now I don't want to talk about entitlements I want cuts. They are unsustainable. I watched Chris van Hollen who suggested nothing except removing the cap on SS. That is unacceptable. Tell me what DOD cuts you know about. It's very difficult to cut the DOD when you send 30,000 troops to Afghanistan and begin kinetic, non-hostile actions in Libya. What are the others? Do they add up to this fabled figure of $4T? I doubt it very much.
I suspect that you would most certainly be offended by David Walker's remarks if you were Jewish, Nash.
You aren't, so I guess you feel that exempts you from objecting to the indecency of the comments in question.
Thanks for your contribution, Northstar. If the moderators restore this thread, maybe you'll even see this note!
I have to admit that being able to accept what I was shown about the conservative movement, and the tactics of Norquist, Abramoff and still others was quite difficult for me. As a long-time participant in politics and public affairs, I saw a lot, close-up, and generally developed respect for elected officials and their hard-working staffers. I also saw, usually, but not always, that elected officials were for the most part honest and hard-working. I tended to pooh-pooh the various conspiracy theories and complaints about the corrupting influence of campaign contributions.
However, I also saw how the oil industry bought Senators and Congressmen, one at a time. I organized the public affairs program and annual meetings of several oil industry associations, and will never forget Sen. John Tower stuffing the bundles of cash into his pockets, nor the steady supply of very, very high-class call girls the oil men provided for Tower. I remember the shocking, criminal venality of Cal. State Sen. Alan Robbins, again observed personally at close range. I remember many others on a first-hand basis. So I knew that the corruption happens, sadly, but generally thought that was the result of individual corruption rather than a focused, orchestrated program.
Now it's clear there is such a program of comprehensive, coherent corruption, by Norquist et. al, and the concomitant use of blackmail to force their hirelings to toe the official line. It looks almost exactly the way business and politics are intertwined in the cartel state of Japan. And, frankly, that is also exactly the way that business and government work together in a classical fascist state. It's a tragedy and a massive disillusionmnet.
AN OPEN LETTER TO PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA:
Dear Mr. President:
You have my admiration and my sympathy. You have worked tirelessly to do the right thing for the American people. You saved us from an economic meltdown and got health care reform passed and signed into law. You found the architect of the 9/11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington and you ordered his slain. You have faced more acrimony and criticism than any American President in our history. You have borne it all with a stoic determination to do the right thing and I admire you for it.
But, the time has come to do the unthinkable, to step back and let the chips fall where they may. If the GOP/TP will not meet you halfway and negotiate in good faith. If they continue to put politics before the concerns about our country and our people. If they cannot show you the respect you deserve as our duly elected President and Commander-in-Chief, then it is time to let them try to sleep in the bed they have made for themselves.
Mr. President, you have my full support and the support of the majority of the American people to tell Mr. Cantor and Mr. McConnell to stick it where the sun don't shine. Tell them you will no longer waste your time sitting in meetings where they refuse to budge and want to make the American middle-class foot the bill so THEY can tell the rich they can keep their wealth while the rest of the country suffers.
You've done the best you could. You've worked long hours and tried to reach an agreement that will spread the responsibility to ALL the American people, not just the old, the poor and the middle class. But there comes a time when you've got to say "enough is enough!" That time is now.
Suspend your meetings, they serve no purpose other than to give the GOP/TP a soapbox to issue more rhetorical political statements. Tell the GOP/TP to come up with a plan for your review and if it doesn't include a repeal of the tax breaks for the rich tell them to go back to the drawing board, sharpen their pencils and try again.
If the unthinkable happens and August 2nd arrives with no increase in the debt ceiling then let the consequences be on the heads of the GOP/TP. They own it. Even Mr. McConnell recognizes that fact. Order him to go to China and explain to Beijing why we can't honor the debts George Bush created to pay for his wars. It's the GOP/TP's problem now. You've done all anyone could do. You drug that horse to water and you couldn't make him drink. Ok, now let's see Mr. McConnel, Mr. Boehner and above all Mr. Cantor solve this problem by themselves.
Mr. Obama, you will go down in history as one of the greatest President's this country has ever had. You inherited a financial nightmare of unprecedented proportions and you have spent your Presidency staving off financial disaster with virtually no help from the opposition.
It's time Mr. President.
Enough is enough.
Call their bluff and let them own the consequences.
Sincerely,
William A. Nicholson
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Obama/Biden 2012
Who told you about my ballroom dancing background? My quickstep, waltz and two-step cha-cha are renowned in the ballroom world. To Obama and Cantor...it takes two to Tango.
Ignored Bag:
You really, really, really are out of stuff to say huh? Poor offended you. :o(
Nashville Fan exemplifies liberal thinking- no matter what is said, it will be defended by liberals, because it was said by a liberal.
Ira, be glad you were not on the board before Eric in Salinas got banned. He had daily racist, anti- Semitic, homophobic rants- and the libsrus gang defended him as having "good points".
It is one thing to disagree on policies- but honest people will always find some areas of agreement.
Condemning bigotry ought to be one area where all decent people can agree.
How sadly predictable.
That David Walker's statements were obviously anti-Jew is undisputed. That the libbies will not respond is of course predictable.
But the best part really is our own little Nashville Fan - "it's a personal thing don't you know.
Unless the criticism is level against Obama, then it cause he's black.
Hey Nash - David Walker is the jew hating kettle. You my friend are the black pan.
But hey - Mixed and Ira: please don't do anything to make David Walker stop. His post are very entertaining. Speaking of fun - did Feisty eat Bev.? Have not see too much of my girl around here lately.
LMAO......Navybouy collapsed, Feisty collapsed........The Facist and Job1 collapsed. OMG! The gimme gimme gang is languishing in collapsville!
Bill, you're well aware that the President's budget as voted on through parliamentary maneuver of Republicans was one that he had already requested to be discarded due to changing circumstances.
I say you know that because it's a Conservative talking point (the whole purpose of the vote) which comes up every few days and is debunked every time. You continue to mention it, meaning you're intentionally spreading a lie.
David Walker, thanks for your comments at the top of this thread. Well said and insightful.
"Changing circumstances" - now there's an understatement. Ol'Tin-Ear Obama missed badly on that one.
Hiya, Spanky-
Glad you could check in early.
As you can see, Mark Murray hasn't been able to fix the problem with the collapsing of posts.
It looks like it's going to be wild one today.
My comment to David Walker was collapsed.
lol
PS-Nash is precious, isn't she?
She can't seem to figure out how to ignore me.
:-)
Spanky:
I am the black pan . . . and proud of it . . . get used to it . . . you ain't running this . . . now run along and pretend to be offended some more . . . here is a hanky for ya . . . poor mistreated you!
Black is beautiful dontcha know!
P.S. Loving how everyone is so eager ya'll are to cry in your beer about the integrity of noted jewish leader Eric Cantor . . . too precious . . . how dare anyone call him what he is! The nerve! He is jewish! AAAAARRRGGHH!
Of course, that beats admitting that conservative economic policies led us into this pickle and conservative politicians are making it worst . . . yeah, let's talk about David Walker some more . . . lol!
Mixed Bag
Good morning Gauleiter Bag.
Beep Beep.
Actually, the discussion was quite illuminating today. Not because of you repeating yourself as usual, but because my response to you elicited some information from John A. on Nobel Laureate Joe Stiglitz' opinion of the Simpson-Bowles recommendation.
Wow, that comment gives new meaning to the notion of putting lipstick on a pig. These "changing circumstances " of which you speak, could that be the Republicans dragging Obama kicking and screaming to the altar of deficit and budget reduction? I guess that's one way to get religion on this issue.
@Anna Molly
My comment about lawyers was meant to be a little humor. But seriously, I do know the recession has taken a toll on the legal profession. I have lawyers all over my family tree!! Many are working some others are umemployed . Here in MN we have four law schools, graduating about 200 new lawyers every Spring. Wisconsin I think only has two: Madison and Marquette? What our family really needs are some plumbers and electricians!!
Nashville_fan
He used to complain that I was "stalking" him because I replied to too many of his posts. If you ignore him, he complains about that, too. Some people aren't happy unless they've got something to complain about.
@Joe 755363
Your comment aobut the President based on a secondary scource is a misinterpretation. Go back and view his news conference yourself. His remark about "professional politicians" was in a response to a reporter. He was talking about congressional leaders and himself who should act like professionals and do what they were elected to do. that would be raise the debt ceiling and work on the defict with spending cuts and new soruces of revenue.
Joe, it is always better to use a primary source if you can.
JoAnna Smith1, As usual you are this sites voice of reason. I have read much of the Republicans not wanting to compromise but I have yet to see any Democratic plans along the lines of the Ryan plan to have something to begin the negotiations. The only thing I am sure they want to do it raise taxes on "rich" people (by BO's definition). Many times in life we find that when we are right, we cannot compromise and this is much the position that the Republicans find themselves in now. We need to cut spending. You can take everything from the rich and it would not have a meaningful affect on the deficit. Broadening the tax base would be the biggest help so let's work on bringing jobs back to the US, and contrary to what BO believes this does not require money to be thrown at "shovel ready" projects. Let's raise taxes on imports rather than people. Maybe let's tax everyone rather than letting 48% have a free ride and many of this 48% actually get more back in refunds than they paid in. That is criminal. No one should be allowed to get a refund bigger than what they paid in. I always hear that we need to start making the "tough" decisions out of the administration but then they always go for the easy one. When they are faced with reality they leave. Obama has once again proved that no matter what room he is in he is the most inexperienced person in the room.
I see Mixed Bag has managed to trump up some support for libeling fellow poster David Walker. And that's how THEY roll. Poutrage, phony indignation and leaps and bounds across the dialogue to make their narrow bias somehow seem factual.
As a Jew, David Walker, I was NOT offended by your remarks. I am offended that MB, who is right in the middle of every scandal and controversy on this board has decided to cull you from the herd. Any time a liberal starts making sense,...MB or his minions attempt to discredit them ala Breitbart or O'Keefe, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
Nothing David Walker has EVER said comes even remotely close to Eric Salinas. AND - it's not like he screamed Blood Libel, right?
Yeah, Eric Cantor has proven that he is a schill for his corporate masters. He's a schmuck. and personally, David, I think he would do it for FAR LESS than 30 pieces of silver,...
PS. When does he usurp Boehner and take the gavel? In the photo on HuffPo this morning, you can literally see him licking his chops at the prospect of pushing Boehner aside. I would defend David's comment about Judas, too. It is a common vernacular meaning traitor. And it is an APT way to describe Eric Cantor. I just wonder if he's made any time for Britney Spears concerts? And who paid for them?
You see, MB, while you've been SO busy trying to label everyone on this board and set the message, we've been busy labeling you. Your Motus Operandi is resident sh!t stirrer. Now your kettle's boiling over, you may want to go check on it,...you don't want to get stains the counters, or do you?
So the liberals want more spending, even after they increased spending by $1.4 Trillion over the last 3 years (vs Bush's 2009 spending budget), with no net positive results - in fact, virtually everything has gone further South.
Isn't it time we tried something new?
Houston-
"Gauleiter"...?
lol
Might I suggest that any brownshirt references be more appropriately addressed to David Walker?
Anyway...
Isn't our President also a Nobel laureate?
Ironically (and remarkably), the recipient of the Peace Prize?
What plan has the esteemed Mr. Stiglitz offered to address the nation's debt crisis...?
Feel free to omit any such proposal that cannot be converted into legislation capable of passing both Houses of Congress on a bipartisan basis, and sent on to President Obama for signing, Houston.
As you are well aware, I favor the Plan favored by President Obama's liberal Democratic home-state Senator, Dick Durbin (D-IL).
The same Plan favored by conservative Republican Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK) and heaven knows how many other Republican and Democratic members of Congress.
As for President Obama, he doesn't really appear to actually have any detailed, specific proposal to address the problem, does he?
Oh well...
By the way, Houston...I believe Acme's on the line for you.
Beep Beep!
:-)
@ John A, I did find your post response. this thread is crazy today.
"so I knew that corruption happens, sadly, but generally thought that was the resuls of individual corruption, rather than a focused orchestrated program".
I fear that these techniques have also spilled over to the religious, cultural issues. The Susan B.Anthony pledge calls for the same game plan as Norquist's pledge. For me, the merging point is M. Bachmann's candidacy. Because it is my field of knowledge first hand, I see the passion of" true believers "using the political process to promote their vision of religious state made in their image.
Thanks for offering your expert testimony, Clara.
If you don't mind, I'll stick with the analysis of the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League and of course, that of our fellow blogger, Ira Lapin, who is also Jewish.
It would appear that they both disagree with you.
Thanks for weighing in, though.
Also...
It's a minor thing, but...
Your tone was a bit strident, Clara.
But, actually...overall, I'm pleased.
I thought you had me on ignore...like Nash.
Nice chatting with you.
Let's do it again, soon.
Since day one The President has had the idea that Compromise means that the other side needs to compromise and do things his way. Nothing new here!
Ira Lapin:
I'll try this one more time. I did not raise the issue of Cantor's religion. Neither did I raise the issue of anti-Semitism. What I said in the post that started this nonsense was something to the effect that Cantor was THE punk's punk, and it would be rather wonderful to wipe the smirk off the insufferable bastard's face. (Mind you now....I said, "to the effect". I don't recall my exact words.) I am certain however that I did not raise either the issue of his religion or ancestry.
That was done by both Spanky, who can't even spell Semitic and by Mixed Bag who implied that my feelings toward Cantor were based on anti-Semitism. That is of course absolutely false. However, to demonstrate the ignorance of Spanky and Mixed bag, I challenged them to show that Cantor was of Semitic ancestry. Mixed Bag swallowed the bait, hook, line, and sinker.
As I have explained repeatedly, Semites include a wide array of peoples, including Arabs, many of whom are Muslims. On the other hand, not all Jews are Semites; Elizabeth Taylor for example. Regardless of those FACTS, Mixed Bag continues with his nonsensical insistence that being anti-Semitic equates with being anti-Jew. Even if this were true - which it most assuredly is not - it has no relevance to the issue at hand.
The real issue here is that Eric Cantor is willing to sell out to the highest bidder. Neither his ancestry nor his religion have any bearing on this. This does not stop Mixed Bag, Spanky, and it appears Alan, NJ from making that connection.
That a Rabbi can make the same connection to being anti-Jew, therefore anti-Semitic, and the 30 pieces of silver reference is absurd on its face. Beyond that, as I pointed out, many Jews of standing have also treated the word "holocaust" as though it could mean nothing more than the evil pogroms of Hitler. Somehow or other, Webster's definition of holocaust would describe the fire-bombing of Dresden? Wouldn't it? I am not going to look to a Rabbi for the definitions of words, particularly when one considers that his bona fides are based on the fact that he is a leader of people who believe in a very vindictive and jealous invisible guy who lives in the sky. Anti-Semitic does NOT mean anti-Jew.
Lastly, my original feelings about Eric Cantor remain the same, religion and ethnicity notwithstanding - he is a traitorous punk.
Clara, KCMO:
Your post made me laugh out loud. I was raised in the S.F. Valley where we had the best deli in the world. That's right - in the world. The proprietor's name was Sam - don't let this get out, he was a Jew - and he made the best pastrami in the world. That's right - in the world.
The creep went and died some years ago and I have yet to find pastrami, onion rolls (two for thirteen-cents), or potato salad that matched his. Whatcha got in KC?
As far as Cantor, you have jogged my memory. To describe him, schmuck is good, putz is better.
? What did I say? I asked you the significance of his ancestry yesterday and received a reasonable reply, and I think Ira today explained how the the comments you made could be considered anti-Semitic. I am neither Jewish or Black so I stay away from those conversations unless I am being accused of racism, which happens frequently on this board if you are critical of certain policies of the current Administration.
In fact it is pretty hard to get under my skin as I am not easily offended, except by Nash for revealing my ballroom background.
BTW IMO Cantor and most of the players involved in these negotiating are acting like asses. They are currently lowering my already rock-bottom opinion of Washington politicians. Now you see David this is a criticism of Cantor without it being anti-Semitic.
David Walker-
You're actually making some progress in your halting way.
Unfortunately, it's one step forward, two steps back, isn't it?
You're all the way up to actually acknowledging that the Director of the Anti-Defamation League regards comments like yours as anti-Semitic.
Trying to make this an argument that anti-Semitism somehow boils down to a matter of opinion suggests that anti-Semitism doesn't actually exist...unless someone believes it does...maybe.
But what's worse is your comparision of the systematic, methodical destruction of helpless and defenseless noncombatant Jewish men, women, and children in Nazi death factories to the Allies' bombing campaign against German cities (cities with civil and air defenses) containing factories producing war materiel and transportation hubs for the transport of that war materiel.
You can't rationalize the Holocaust away, David.
I'm surprised that you're clueless enough to try.
When you're in a hole, stop digging.
Just stop, David.
"Eric, don't call my bluff," the president said, warning Cantor that he would take his case "to the American people." He told Cantor that no other president — not Ronald Reagan, the president said — would sit through such negotiations.
Obama is such an idiot. Going to the American People IS YOUR BLUFF Obama. You have like a 30% approval rating or less. What do you think will happen? Your lack of common sense is hilarious like a poo fight in the zoo monkey house.
Yes, we only have two, but I think those two generate more lawyers, sad to say. But some of us double as plumbers and electricians. I'm in the plumbers' union myself. Torturing clients is labor intensive work. ;-)
David -
I almost certainly ate a pastrami on rye - with hot dip sauce - in that deli. Roger Beck used to bicycle me around the entire Valley for meetings, and I know we hit every deli there at least once a year. If it's still there, a wondeful deli is in Hollywood on Los Feliz between Glendale Blvd. in the Silver Lake area, and Sunset. And of course, wander on down a bit more to the south, on Fairfax near Santa Monica, for at least one fabulous deli.
But the VERY best pastrami on rye I ever had was at Green's Deli in Claremont. Don't know if that store has survived, been too many years since I was out that way.
Oddly enough, given the heavy NYC influence here in Tampa, I haven't found ONE decent deli that serves a good hot pastrami dip. Now look what you started, I'll be lusting for days for a Green's sandwich with a cold Pilsner Urquell in a frozen mug.
Oh, John and David -- stop it, okay.
Now you've got me wanting to take a little drive for a turkey Reuben (Rachel), cheese fries, and some chicken matzo soup from my own favorite deli. With a REAL cherry (diet) Coke from the fountain.
Interesting on how obama and company ignored his own debt commision the first qtr of 2011 and blew off S&P's warning in April 2011 on getting Americas fiscal house in order. Now, his inattention has put us up against a wall.
I wonder if obama is pissed at the republicans for interferring with his re-election campaign schedule?
All that time he wasted when he had a majority control in congress to raise the debt ceiling. I wonder if any of his advisors looked down the road to see that the debt limit would have to be increased? Hey, he could always blame bush and the right, right? Just what we need, excuses!
David Walker
Beyond that, as I pointed out, many Jews of standing have also treated the word "holocaust" as though it could mean nothing more than the evil pogroms of Hitler.
You almost had me until that sentence.
Where I'm from we call those people Holocaust deniers....and you, with that last sentence, managed to join the club. To the rest of the world, that's exactly what it means. To say otherwise or try to defer that it means something is word play that demeans the memory of the 12 million people that were slaughtered, 6 million of them Jews.
Take Mixed Bags advice.
When you're in a hole, stop digging.
Just stop, David.
As expected JS1 and Bill, Fairfax are again on record as being in favor of lying as long as it suits their cause. That's the situational ethics of the Conservative movement.
american is doing the same thing, of course. The S&P warning was intended to fend off EXACTLY the sort of brinksmanship Conservatives are engaging in with regards the current debt ceiling negotiations.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/04/18/135510660/s-p-u-s-debt-warning-a-boost-for-compromise
That's right, the financial world saw MONTHS AGO just how ideologically crazy the GOPTP had become, and how they are endangering the economy.
David Walker..
Knowing how you are a stickler for terminology, you keep using the word treason incorrectly.
Cantor may be a detestable SOB, but he is not treasonous.
Respectfully, the definition is as follows:
Article 3 Section 3 of the US constitution defines treason and its punishment.
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.”
American - your position is absolutely upside-down compared with facts and events.
See below, my post http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/14/7081699-first-thoughts-always-darkest-before-the-deal?threadId=3173432&commentId=55964206#c55960570
Ira Lapin:
This is going to be my last post on this subject. Article 3 Section 3 could most certainly be applied to the actions of Cantor. The critical definition here is not treason, but "Enemies".
Where I'm from - that would be Planet Earth - we are aware of the interminable attempts to wipe out Jewry. Indeed, my neighbor had a tattoo to remind me of this horror, and her husband barely escaped with his life from Russia. Spare me your idiotic reference to holocaust deniers. I note you choose to capitalize the "H". Stick with your term Holocaust if it gives you comfort. That you give it a proper name means nothing to me. It was an indefensible slaughter of at least six-million people whose only crime was being Jewish. Call it a bagel if you wish, it does not change the reality of the murder of six-million dead. Do not trifle with me over this monstrous crime.
I know how Jews use the word. I also know how Webster defines the word. I don't look to Rabbis or Jews for either spiritual guidance or for tips on how to use my native language.
As I have noted repeatedly, those of your ilk come along with manufactured outrage, based on a single remark from which you construct an entire scenario. You pretend there is some sort of debate, you pretend to frame it, and then you define the words used in the false debate as you go along. Really, it's disgusting.
Don't waste your time, Ira.
I've got this one.
"...those of your ilk..."
Nice.
A fat one...
Right over the plate.
You really CAN'T stop, can you, David?
Gosh...I know Clara's ignoring me, but maybe she's read your views on the Holocaust by now.
As much as she despises me, I'd love to hear her reaction to that drivel.
One can only hope...
John A. and Anna Molly:
I'm so sorry Anna Molly, food does that to me. If it's any consolation to you, this is the first post I've written on my new keyboard. I drooled my last one to death.
John A.: So, why the hell did we move? You can't get a decent piece of pastrami in Kansas. The stuff is lean. What's that all about? It's supposed to be marbled, artery-clogging, and disgustingly wonderful. You sure can't get decent Mexican food. For Pete's sake, Kansans think catsup is spicy, so Mexicans have learned to blandify everything. (Hey, is that a good word or what? Blandify!) The Chinese food is OK, but somehow serving Rye Bread with dinner just doesn't seem right.
I miss Pink's. As I recall, maybe we might have cut school - can't be sure - headed down to the beach for some body surfing, and then you'd swing by Pink's. It wasn't the monstrosity then that it is now, just a hole in the wall. None of that cheap hot dog stuff. You got a kosher dog, mustard, slathered with chili, and onion of course at your request. All that for the absurd price of 25-cents, a quarter, two-bits.
Geez what happened? You got Scott, I got Brownback. And that really smart pragmatic guy - what's his name? Brown? - who truly understands governance is in California.
Mixed Bag..
I really think that the reaction thus far is going to be the reaction of tomorrow and the next day and so on. I've done this before and the reaction was exactly the same.
How Clara can defend these comments is beyond me.
With respect to Mr. Walker...you can argue with a fool but not a damned fool.
Sad day for FR...
Jiminy, David, you had to bring up Pink's. And now I'm recalling Bob's Big Boy in Toluca lake - store no. 2 in the chain (I used to do PR for Bob Wian before he sold out to Marriott), Hampton's (the BEST burger in LA, we can arm wrestle about it later), and that nifty little hot dog stand across Riverside Drive from them.
But in high school - I graduated from an Orange County school - the place we went before heading to the beach was that old-fashioned drug store soda counter at the place where Harbor Blvd. ran into the main drag in Costa Mesa. This was back before the LA Times built its plant down there, and the entire length of Harbor was tomato and bean fields.
You'd stop for penny candies and a soda fountain malt or root beer float (15 cents), then cut down to 19th Street and get the amazing burgers and fries from Zubies for next to nothing. Then, down over the Arches bridge onto Balboa Peninsula, and either soon pull up at the pier or keep going to the Rendezvous Ballroom beach area. Yeah, by then the burger and fries were cold and the malt rather runny, but gosh it was good. Of course, I got so badly sunburned in those days that it probably caused the skin cancer I had to handle two years ago.
Why did we move? Well, in my case there was the chance to take the world's most unique job here in Tampa. I have an extremely unusual vocation now and love it, although Tampa is far, far too much like Newport Beach in the 1970's - lots of flash but no depth, and a seriously-divided class system.
Of course, here all the danged supermarket chicken is skinless and boneless - the New York influence - and you can't get the great individually flash-frozen chicken breasts available in CA (great way to stock uo the freezer). Forget any authentic Mexican food (California's BEST tacos are from a little family restaurant in San Bernardino) unless I make it myself. Sometimes I find a place that has that great Farmland brand bacon-pork breakfast sausage, and of course if you're into seafood this place is great. The barbecue around here is outstanding.
You hve one consolation, David. some of the Kansas City steakhouses are the best anywhere. Another day, however, I'll tell you about the time I foolishly orderd a New York strip well done ....
Jeez John:
We cruised the Bob's on Van Nuys Blvd. and I ate many a meal there. Combo plate. Big Boy, fries, and a salad with that awesome blue cheese dressing. $1.55 if I recall correctly. I'd bet as the PR type you recall the horse meat brouhaha on - I think - Lankershim or was it Laurel Canyon? After I'd left California, I was headed to work in Ohio, so I stopped at a Bob's in Michigan. It was a chain-owned store - Shoney's. Good grief, they put cereal in their hamburger meat. They may have some mighty fine beef here, but that's about it. Cereal in hamburger. How can you do such a thing and sleep at night?
This was in the mid-70's. True story. I'm working in Toledo and I start shaking and going into withdrawal. Obviously, I need some Mexican food. In those days, we called illegal immigrants "migrant farm workers" as I'm sure you recall, and many stayed and called Ohio their home. At the time, there were more than a million Mexicans there, so there was some really good Mexican food.
Anyway, I ask one of my co-workers where I might find some good Mexican food. At the airport, she tells me. I know, it gave me pause too, but hey I'm shakin' bad. So I get there and I see this waitress carrying this incredibly beautiful platter loaded with nachos that are dripping with cheese. I am virtually speechless and when my waitress comes for my order, I point at the nachos and say, "Want some!" (Well, it was something like that.)
So she brings me my order and I can hardly believe my eyes. This food is beautiful. I stuff a nacho in my mouth and in one terrifying moment I realize - IT'S AMERICAN CHEESE. At that moment I thought I had died and gone to hell - and I'm an atheist. It was very hard for me to trust an Ohioan after that.
There actually was a pretty darned good Mexican restaurant there though. It had the very imaginative name of "El Sombrero". What the hell. It worked for The Brown Derby, right?
By the way, for some of the finest Mexican food you'll ever eat, there is a restaurant - at least there was when I was going to school there - in San Diego, with the very, very Mexican name of the 55th Street Cafe. Good stuff.
Well done steak in KC? How did you tell it apart from the briquets? Even a Philistine like myself knows better than that.
Rogue:
Because Obama has no control over his own administration. Geithner and Bernanke have already stated the first thing they'll pay is bonds...NOT SS. Can't have the bankers lose their million dollar bonuses can we?
And just where will Bernanke and Geithner find the funds to pay the bonds? You guessed it...raid it from Social Security.
How much does the government save by dissolving the Fed?
frostyinalaska,
Definition of statistics: "The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures"!
Evan Esar
No need to continue, right?
David Walker:
Keep writing what you feel. This is a free country until the GOP/TP takes over the Senate and the White House. Then who knows what we will have. The righties have no problem saying what they want lies and all.
Do your thing my friend and have a great day.
Let's all talk about our favorite places to enjoy ethnic Jewish food, shall we, David and John A.?
But..where will you be eating when the neo-Nazis and the other anti-Semites succeed in erasing Jews and Jewish culture (including Jewish cuisine) from our planet?
You're both despicable.
And utterly transparent.
Navy...?
You're merely clueless.
Rogue:
You are an idiot and just spouting more of the same talking points. You have no idea what I read or do not read. My posts stand by themselves. My opinions are just that opinions and they are just as valid as any of yours are to you so stop trying to tell me what to think and write. The facts I use are documented in my posts so you can go look them up.
Congratulations, you made the ignore club.
I'm fascinated to hear what you have to say about how we'll pay our bills without raising the debt ceiling, Rogue American. Please use this tool to determine what you'll pay and what you'll cut. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/federal-debt-limit-you-choose-who-gets-paid/
You have $172.4B available. Hint: you may want to start with the $29B in interest on Treasury securities. Then again you're so sure you're right you probably didn't need that hint.
Ira
Let's get something straight, we all know you are Groucho and as Groucho you went on a jihad against me and my friends. Suddenly you've found yourself in a position of situational ethics and you seem to want to play the Juda card against someone who isn't anti- Jewish and anti-Israel. I'm not biting. You may fool some of the people; but I've been around long enough to recognize you by your DEEDS and not your words.
A friend posted this comment on his wall today:
I think this pretty much sums up the 'game' you and MB are trying to play here.
Another Thought
Where is the Jobs Bill? That's the Trillion Dollar question.
Where are the writers of the Jobs Bill? That's another Trillion Dollar question?
Where are the jobs that will create the revenue needed to jump start the new era of American Progress? Where are the jobs that will boost the new Health Care Reforms? Where are the jobs that will ensure the next generation we did not fail them to have the same benefits we enjoy?
The Republican led Congress are only concerned with their own jobs. While the rest of the world burns, they sit in their pits surrounded by snakes and watch with forked tongues.
President Obama realizes that they are not going to do anything about the jobs situation. That is why he will take action himself. He also realizes that the Republicans are tripping over their Two Right Feet. The president also realizes that the Republicans are like players on the bench, they take pride in sitting out only to get a ring for never playing.
President Obama is the leader this country needs and deserves.
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
LouisJ
While I wait for the rest of your post to display it is apparent that Cantor is trying to be a Newt retread. Cantor was out of line like a little kid throwing a tantrum in a store. The adult in the room (President Obama) told him to behave.
Louis, the light bulb amendment was more important. Thank goodness it was defeated. What a bunch of dim bulbs!
The GOP/TP is a cancer on this country and it is time for it to be surgically removed, period. They serve no value to this country at all and in fact are the disease that is rotting this country from the inside out.
The TEA Drinkers are not only a cancer, they have totally destroyed the organs through the poisoned incoherent rhetoric they spew. The Republican TEA Drinkers don't even know what they are talking about. They essentially ramble on some FOX News Talking Point.
When you have Failed Entertainers, Failed Governors and Failed Politicians as the voice of a bloc of America that do not know much about America, then you have a recipe for poisoned Witches Brew and the cooks are people like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and Christine ODonnell. Sounds like a Stygian Witches thing.
Eric most likely wants a bigger high chair.
I can't wait to see Cantor wrestling Boehener's over 'sized' gavel from his sweaty palms... lol
While Boehner blubbers...
The Republican-Tea Bagger collapse chickens are at it again.
Mr. Cantor has 'shorts' betting against the debt ceiling being raised. If Cantor is a very good boy right now we might recuse him from this issue. If not, he should be removed from office.
Leader McConnell is scared to "co-own the bad economy". You can't trust Republican congressionals with your money. They had zero fiscal responsibility under Bush, same as now.
The debt and deficit bills run up by President Bush were the most in our history. Now the big three boys don't want to raise the debt ceiling to cover those bills.
These 3 Phonies raised the debt ceiling on Bush's watch seven times.
This is a whole misunderstanding. There wasn't a blowup in the meeting. The Pres had to run because he thought he had another $30,000 a plate fundraiser to be at.
I dunno, if someone told me they were bluffing, I would call their bluff........
"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies." Then Senator Obama
I guess things change when you are drunk with power.
Reposted from #1.0 Above – Courtesy the Collapsing Cowards that visit this board.
And the Debt Saga continues and President Obama made it abundantly clear for the last time yesterday that he is putting everything on the Discussion Table and the hell with his political career. He is not concerned about his political life but is 100% committed to this country. Talk about leadership.
In yesterday’s meeting Cantor acted like a little kid, interrupted the President spouting talking points and NOT ONE idea. Kind of like many of the right that visit this board every day so you can pretty well imagine the nature of those talks yesterday.
Then Cantor tried to say that President Obama stormed out of the meeting which was later proved to be false. Hypocrite, who is the one that walks out of meetings. Again, blame somebody else for the very same thing that you are guilty of. The President told all of them in no uncertain words that they were doing exactly what this country finds so repugnant about politics. He told them to go get their acts together and start finding solutions to the problem and then adjourned the meeting.
Somebody name one thing that the GOP/TP has compromised on in the DEBT meetings, one thing. President Obama has put entitlements on the table for discussion, reducing the DOD budget, just about everything and the GOP/TP has not offered one compromise of their own. Not one, just like they have not done one thing to move this country forward in the last 2years plus.
Where are the jobs bill that they promised in 2010, where are their plans to improve the economy that they promised in 2010. Again nothing, no jobs bill, no economic stimulus, big cuts to education, and absolutely NO LEADERSHIP.
I told you this is not about the Debt Ceiling. I told you that the GOP/TP was not going to do anything to move this country forward. I told you it is about Power and Greed, It is about Class Warfare. It is about the wholesale destruction of the economy, our credit status and global chaos.
The GOP/TP is a cancer on this country and it is time for it to be surgically removed, period. They serve no value to this country at all and in fact are the disease that is rotting this country from the inside out.
We are in big trouble and the GOP/TP is not going to be able to “cut and Run” on this issue and it will come back to bite them. You think the sacrifice our President is asking us to make now is a big deal, just wait and watch what happens next. The difference is that we will not be able to control any of it once it starts. The Great Depression will look like a picnic compared to what is coming.
Watching Joe Blow this morning and the question was presented what did the GOP/TP do to move this country forward. The answer “The Ryan Budget Bill” you know the one that repeals Medicare and Medicaid, cuts the budgets of 50 or more Social Safety Nets like education, medical research, FEMA, FDA, etc, etc and takes those savings to give record tax cuts to the top 2%. Oh that bill. And it adds almost 6 trillion dollars to the deficit/debt over the next decade that means the Debt Ceiling will have to be increased to implement that bill if it passes. Hypocrites/Liars – all of them.
Come on people time to wake up and connect the dots.
Everyone one of these idiots should be fired...If I walked out of a meeting at my job I'd be canned. I hired Obama he doesn't have the right to walk on any meeting. The GOP and Dems need a swift kick in ass before the whole lot destroys what the people have worked so hard for........first they threaten to shut down the gov so the military doesnt get paid (my brother got a purple heart and bronze star with valor..during a period in April when they were threatening this) now he says my parent may not recieve the SS checks? this is crap...the congress stil gets paid...the pres still gets paid...garbage
Don't know if it's true... but someone postulated that Cantor has a "short bet" on the nation's debt crisis. Dunno... but it would explain a great deal regarding Cantor's overall behavior.
Speaking of greedy, Republicans are trying to make it so people keep more of their own money while Democrats are trying to take money from people at the point of the gun so that they can redistribute it to to others in an attempt to buy votes. Yeah Republicans are the greedy ones, Democrats hold their hands out like petulant childing crying for more, while demanding that somebody else pay for it. Yeah Republicans are the greedy ones.
George Bush, Dick Cheney and the Republican led Congress from 2001-2007 is awaiting trial and that begins January 2013.
12 years, thousands of troops and civilian deaths and Trillions of dollars later is entirely too long.
Hey Eric Cantor - we call it Insider Trading! This guy is betting on the debt ceiling - he will make a lot of money if the debt ceiling is not passed. Why is he part of this group?
What is the point of collapsing posts when you can click on them anyway and still get to read them? You radical righties are running scared. I would be too because you are on a losing team - thank goodness.
Hey Navy, did it ever occur to you that your posts get collapsed because:
a) they are so damn long
b) they tend to be the same thing day after day
c) they are usually cut and paste jobs that if one wanted to read they would go to that site.
Brevity is the sole of wit. Try a short original thought that isn't an insult some time.
For the record, I never collapse posts, is easier to just scroll through them, even if they are long-winded.
Re-Post: The Republican-Tea Bagger collapse chickens are at it again.
The President is growing tried of dealing with these Republicans that want to keep these tax loop holes and not raise the debt ceiling. I know that the problem all stems from these Republicans Tea Party people that are so illiterate as far as economics. However, the Republicans leadership has and must get these illiterate folks on board. This debt ceiling deal will get done, and failure by these Republican to do so will destroy not only their party but damage the United so bad that it would take years to recovery.
Cantor had better cool his baby talk and get on board. Remember, this is not President Obama’s debt, but instead, as the majority of American people understand, it is W. Bush’s debt and that is a fact that can’t be ignored.
President Obama has made these guys move their "Neigh" to "Yea". See what happens when he remains on the high road and everyone else loses focus and starts tossing mud (CantorWont).
Big props to President Obama as the leader and historic figure the Nobel Committee saw him to be.
Disabled Veteran, you hit the nail on the head. It's been apparent to anyone with an open mind that the Republicans don't want this country to recover under a Democrat president, especially a black one. McConnell's statement:“the single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term President.” Not the economy. Not the deficit. Not putting people to work. Just making sure Obama doesn't get elected a second term even if it means taking the country down with it.
Repost of #1.52, in collapsed thread:
The President is exercising leadership, and using the "bully pulpit" of his office to address the impasse in the House. This is actually quite similar to the efforts made by President Roosevelt in 1936-37, when Republican opposition to expanded New Deal programs had brought about a new recession.
Time is short. If action is to occur, it must happen today and tomorrow. Perhaps the President should take a leaf from FDR's book and actually present a fully-drafted bill embodying his policies. That is a formal action that requires the members of the House and Senate to perform.
As I've mentioned here before, and others have also recently discussed, normally President Obama takes the course of stating policy objectives, then leaves the formulation of the legislation to the members of Congress to undertake. Since personally initiat8ing this round of negotiations, the President has stepped away from his usual method of working and properly taken a more direct role in resolving the issues.
As for Representative Eric Cantor, he is an honest politician, in the sense that Mark Twain defined one: Once bought, he stays bought. Rep. Cantor has been bought by the Grover Norquist front organization, Americans for Tax Reform. What that means is that President Obama faces one problem in his negotiating sessions - the actual decision-maker for the ultra-right is not in the room. Instead, Grover Norquist huddles in his offices on K Street and makes sure that his hired politicians all remember he's constantly watching them.
Now, folks, this statement is not a typical rant against "corrupt politicians" - there's factual material to support it. And the objective is more than just holding firm on a Tea Party position - it's a battle to the death for Norquist and others who seek to wreck the Democratic Party, privatize government operations to funnel massive amounts of public money to select private businesses, and permanently disable or dismantle government regulations of almost every kind.
Thomas Frank, in The Wecking Crew, gives a detailed picture of the methods used - methods that Rep. Cantor has benefitted from. Begin the reading on page 190 of the Franks volume:
In a footnote to that text, Frank explains the K Street Project was mounted by Norquist's so-called "think tank," Americans for Tax Reform. The footnote quotes Norquist as explaining, "The K Street project promotes the hire of lobbyists at corporations and trade associations who understand free market economics, who support their principled postions for free trade, tort law abuse, and for lower and more transparent taxation."
Frank then spends several pages showing that while Norquist failed in his early years to get 100% cooperation with the K Street project, he was somewhat successful, and learned metter how to tighten the noose - using campaign money funneled through his think tank to support people like Eric Cantor, hiring officeholders who left public service to lobby, hiring staffers from Congressional offices friendly to his conservative cause, and, essentially, completely corrupting the Federal political process.
So, Grover Norquist, a devious and cunning worm who has never been elected to anything, is the puppet master for Eric Cantor and every other Republican who signed Norquist's now-infamous "pledge" to refuse to vote for any tax reform other than complete reduction of rates for corporations and the wealthy. Norquist has channeled the money and clout of major corporations and trade associations to back up his threats, thus keeping his bought-and-paid-for Congressional constituents in line.
Rep. Cantor, by taking a leading role in the negotiations with President Obama, is the nay-saying spear carrier for Norquist. So it's time for President Obama to obviate Representative Eric Cantor, go around him, and take a different approach to the battle. Quickly.
You people realize that if someone wants to read your collapsed post all they have to do is click the + sign, right? Why do you keep re-posting the same thing over and over again?
White collar, that is asking Navy to use his own brain, and that doesn't seem possible for him. He wants to charge Cantor with treason because he irrritated lil ole bama's ego. Afterall, NO ONE should question the exalted inept leader at any time.
The Past - The Republican Party ran on the platform of wanting the President to Fail with a group of Entertainers as the Spearhead to spread their fear and smear.
The Present - The Republican Party are planning on running a group of people that do not know history (much less American History), they are purely entertainers, they are failed politicians, they are failed husbands, they are failed business people, they are failed moralists.
The Future - The Republican Party are out to damage the American Infrastructure of Liberty by betraying the oaths that made to ensure its prosperity. They dumb the intelligence of America down to a level of ignorance. There is no future in investing in the old, brittle ways of this piece of American psyche that does nothing for a prospering nation. Move Forward.
Repost from collapsed thread:
I have to admit that being able to accept what I was shown about the conservative movement, and the tactics of Norquist, Abramoff and still others was quite difficult for me. As a long-time participant in politics and public affairs, I saw a lot, close-up, and generally developed respect for elected officials and their hard-working staffers. I also saw, usually, but not always, that elected officials were for the most part honest and hard-working. I tended to pooh-pooh the various conspiracy theories and complaints about the corrupting influence of campaign contributions.
However, I also saw how the oil industry bought Senators and Congressmen, one at a time. I organized the public affairs program and annual meetings of several oil industry associations, and will never forget Sen. John Tower stuffing the bundles of cash into his pockets, nor the steady supply of very, very high-class call girls the oil men provided for Tower. I remember the shocking, criminal venality of Cal. State Sen. Alan Robbins, again observed personally at close range. I remember many others on a first-hand basis. So I knew that the corruption happens, sadly, but generally thought that was the result of individual corruption rather than a focused, orchestrated program.
Now it's clear there is such a program of comprehensive, coherent corruption, by Norquist et. al, and the concomitant use of blackmail to force their hirelings to toe the official line. It looks almost exactly the way business and politics are intertwined in the cartel state of Japan. And, frankly, that is also exactly the way that business and government work together in a classical fascist state. It's a tragedy and a massive disillusionmnet.
The collapsing coward is retired navy himself. Nothing like letting your own ego make a martyr out of yourself so you can create the illusion that you should be heard despite the non-existance of subversives. You people are a joke. Come up with a better smoke screen than that.
Repost of #1.82 from collapsed thread:
The President has been thoughtful about addressing the debt commission's recommendations - and with good reason. Many economists, Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz among them, have heavily criticized the commission's recommendations. Stiglitz, in a March 28 article, called the Simpson-Bowles plan a "suicide pact." Read the story, which I also seeded to the 'Vine, here:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/28/news/economy/budget_stiglitz/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin
In fact, at this moment of some delicacy in the economic recovery, many economists think that the GOP/TP demand to CUT spending is a serious mistake. Instead, they urge a second stimulus, aimed more at employment and investment, to create a solid basis for restored growth.
Stiglitz, in Freefall: America, Free markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy, wrote on p. 74,:
The right wingers in Congress, of course, will not support any such things. And the more they oppose any significant effort to enhance recovery and growth, and thus boost employment, the more, in fact, the so-called "Obama Economy" shifts ownership - by the ultra-right and Libertarians, who caused this mess in the first place.
Read most of your comments and they all seem to be emotionally charged and but not much as far as facts related to specifics such as policies etc to back it up. Mots of what I read is what is being done by the democrats intentionally. The only was to achieve their Socialist utopia via the Cloward/Piven model is to overwhelm the system with spending and entitlements to collapse the US economy and its free market system into one of a government controlled system. The policies the President and his party are implementing are doing just this so when you talk about the Republicans some how damaging the infrastructure I would think twice
Every action by the Republican Party is a questionable move. They have no credibility and have openly shown they are sneaky and under handed. They want to run the country under a cloud of obvious deceit. The media play to their tactics as if they are viable paths to American prosperity when all they represent is nothing but heartless and hopeless groups that want nothing more than pay the rich while watching the middle class suffer.
The party of 'NO' Credibility.
My my... the right wing nitwits are really is a snit today! lmao
Carry on COLLAPSE COWARDS... you're doing a might fine job showing America you don't give a DAMN about free speech... ;o)
Again, one has to wonder why the collapse ratio is 10:1 for progressives? Can't handle the truth?
HIDE IT!
Ohhhhhhh, whats wrong Feisty? Your feelings get hurt. It's ok. The Obama and the Democrats will one day pass a law making it illegal to collapse posts.
LouisJ:
I still am waiting. You have not answered my question and now you state more things that are emotional but nothing in the form of facts to back it up. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, im trying t understand how people come to the conclusions they do and based on what?
Feisty:
Carry on COLLAPSE COWARDS... you're doing a might fine job showing America you don't give a DAMN about free speech... ;o
How are Republicans negatively impacting free speech. Please be specific
Man, someone shook up the Republican hornets' nest with with this thought today. They are out in force. HAHAHA! Hey FR give me a stick so I can poke it and really get them in a frenzy.
Oh man I feel the hate in the room.
I still am waiting. You have not answered my question... You lost me on that little lady, what question?
Hey guys, absolute must read! In the 7/13/11 edition of The Nation, author John Nichols new article, "ALEC Exposed: A Nationwide Blueprint for the Rightwing Takeover", funded, of course, by the Koch Bros. Can also find at the great site, Common Dreams.org Read it and you can see everything that has been already done by new laws in 21 states with new GOP Govs. Frightening stuff.
Fesity:
Now I see what you are talking about as far as collapse. No need to reply to that . Im sure we will be debating other comments soon
I've been reading your well articulated comments and responses. Here's my question. How can anyone take at face value anything any of these elected officials OR the outlets that report on them say? I'm sorry. I can recall a time (not so long ago) when representatives from the two party's could disagree but still communicate and resolve things. These people hate each other at our expense. Their games have become so transparent. Congress has gone from "dysfunctional" to "dangerous" and is rapidly approaching "deadly." Their 'actions' and 'inactions' are costing millions of ordinary Americans their livelihood and soon will cost thousands of others their lives. There are times when a civilization, in order to preserve and protect itself, must resort to organized uncivil acts... we are very, very near that time. You can't reason with the unreasonable. A country running on fumes needs all the old farts it can get. FedUpOldFarts.com
Oh, my - the classic example of inverting the problem, and using unsubstantiated smear-tactic name clling at the sme time:
There is NO "socialist conspiracy" - but there most certainly is a conservative conspiracy to collapse the economy. Naomi Klein, in Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, documents the effort clearly, as did Thomas Frank in the book I cited earlier.
The Republican Party, in fact, is mainly responsible for the massive U.S. debt - tripled in the Reagan Regime, then double again under G.W. Bush. At the same time, those administrations intentionally introduced indifference and incompetence into government operations. They outsourced not only such mundane functions as bridge design and policing, but even war-making - funneling billions of public dollars into the hands of corporations and bloating the budget deficits to do so.
President Obama, faced with a massive economic collapse as he entered office, succeeded in preventing this nation from falling into the abyss. He frustrated right-wing intentions of seeing a collapse so great they could complete their three-decade-long program of wrecking the government and replacing it essentially with a Japan-style cartel political economy.
Now the minions of Grover Norquist hope that the impasse over the debt ceiling will fulfill their long-cherished dreams. Insead, the GOP/TP is committing hara-kiri.
President Obama has made the Republican’s blink in the face of rational thought. They can no longer continue with short term fixes as they have been doing for the past. President Obama has shown them that they need to compromise on the long term solutions.
But as the media continues to push the GOP agenda of Divide and Conquer, the free thinking society have United and Coalesced partnering with innovation and education of new means and measures to address our economic issue.
Extreme groups and extreme ideas have been commonplace in our growing society for as long as it has been here, and the extremists that talk about secession, paranoia, hatred (Texas Gubernatorial Candidate that hates the American flag), racism and demagoguery are nothing more than groups that thrive off of the energy that it creates in their own circles. They have no power with the broader solutions, so what do they do, continue with the messages of the party. “If at first you don’t succeed, get a bigger hammer.”
John A.
Corruption are in both sides of the political spectrum , is ridiculous pretend to deny how union bosses are colluded with democrats and Democrats are clean from any syn ,so please don't trow rocks if you live in a glass house.
I see Navy has moved on from cut and paste of ThinkProgress to cut and paste of his one post of the day.
So the election 2012 will be whether we want austerity as proposed by the Republicans or austerity as imposed by the IMF.
Louis I really would like to know how you come to these beliefs and thoughts because my friend most of what you post is being done by the left but somehow you come to the conclusions its the right. Based on what facts do you think this way?
Unless you are making $250,000.00 a year, no one from either party is talking about raising your taxes.
Where’s the trickle down?
Trickle down only works when there is a mechanism of action in place to make the wealthy spend the money so it will trickle down.
Today you have a buyers market in the housing market, with no competition, and the wealthy are not buying, in fact they are holding fast.
Isn’t this where the trickle down is supposed to start, the wealthy buy up the foreclosed homes, and then rent them back to the middle class?
I say unless the US puts a tax in place that forces the wealthy to spend some of their wealth now… the wealthy will keep all that trickle down money in the bank until a true depression hits the country, and then they can have every home, and business in the USA for song about money.
Here are the Brainy facts...
The Republicans want to band aid everything just long enough to direct attention away from taxes. We don't have the time to waste on this. We need action for the long term solutions.
Community Health Centers will be part of the chopping block in the Budget Cuts. They are needed too much but I'm certain they will be covered by the new Health Care. Matter of fact, they may receive increased funding. It's a new era of reform that the United States deserves. With change comes uncertainty. I'm willing to go through the transitions to ensure a BETTER future for my children. All the Republicans offer is a BITTER Future.
Many Republicans have been poisoned to the point that many unemployed vote for Lawmakers that wish to keep them unemployed. A more needed question you need to ask yourself is 'Why do I (Republican) vote against my own best interest?' Can you answer that? I highly doubt it, but it was worth asking...
Barry - "Don't make me call my bluff."
To Barry - I call your bluff and raise you.
I would love to play poker with Barry.
I posted the following article to the 'Vine on May 16. it is just as applicable now as it was then - and highlights the utter failure of the Republicans to take their duties to this nation seriously:
IRRESPONSIBLE GOP POSITION ON DEBT CEILING COUNTS ON PUBLIC IGNORANCE OF WHAT IS AT STAKE
While House and Senate Republicans continue to pursue their bait-and-switch strategy of pretending the debt and deficit are the priorities instead of their regressive ideological political goals, their intransigence puts the nation, and perhaps the global, economy at great risk.
And they pretend that there is not a perfectly effective and well-considered alternative budget plan already on the table. If the GOP was genuinely serious, they would pass the debt ceiling increase and then get down to real negotiations involving that budget proposal.
The Congressional Progressive Caucus offered an extremely well-thought-out budget plan some while back. It combines cuts with revenue increases, along the lines of many of your points, to achieve excellent results in the coming few years. And that plan does NOT rely on gutting the government and many important programs - which both the Ryan proposal and now the latest new GOP budget plan both do.
Further, the CPC budget proposal actually DOES reduce deficits and attack the debt - while the GOP proposals both first ADD to the deficit, and don't achieve budget balances or surpluses for another 60 years!
GOP “Slashonomics” Won’t Do the Job
Nobel economics laureate Joseph Stiglitz recently has had a great deal to say about how to address government finances, preserve social equity, and address consequences of changes that could aid or damage economic recovery. These are also issues that are part of the budget and debt debate.
So far, the GOP approach has been one of an automaton repeating over and over, "Slashonomics," hiding behind the deficit and debt discussion to conceal their true intent of turning this country back more than 160 years. As long as the Republicans allow the tiny minority Tea Party interest to hijack the debate and repeat that mantra, there will be no genuine effort at solving the overall issues of policy and fiscal improvement.
Understanding the Deficit and Debt
It is typical of governments to borrow to "cover the cost of living," as some have phrased it, for two reasons:
1. Current expenditures outstrip current receipts, periodically That kind of borrowing is essentailly "bridge loan" money, short-term, with short-term maturation periods covered when receipts exceed expenditures. Same stuff any businessman would recognize as a line of credit for operating capital. The U.S. usually does that with T-bills, but there are a number of instruments available.
There isn’t any means of eliminating this type of borrowing and its attendant cost of short-term interest - as long as the country's perceived credit-worthiness is sound, rates will be low. (This is a concrete example of why the debt ceiling increase is so important.)
2. Longer-term borrowing as necessary for either capital investment - bridges, major transportation projects, etc. - or because other government expenses present demands in excess of revenues.
But consider what kinds of expenses those usually are:
A. Wars: Historically (going back to the 1690's), nation-states that used a banking system to capitalize the costs of wars usually ended up winning. This is profoundly illustrated in Paul M. Kennedy's book, The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, in Chapter 3. To paraphrase him, "The victors were those who had one more dollar left at the end."
Since this kind of debt is so large, it is sometimes treated separately from other government expenditures. Great Britain, Kennedy explained in that chapter, set up a special "Sinking Fund" after the American Revolution to handle the massive cost of that war, which was made worse by the loss of the colonies and other territories because those had provided vital revenues and trade proceeds.
Long-term budgeting to establish a special fund for retirement of such debt even now is not a bad idea.
B. Major capital investment: While most consider such investment to be public infrastructure, it can also be a national investment in supporting business growth or development, as the President undertook in the past two years; it can be a national investment in advanced education or research intended to strengthen the labor market and fulfill the needs of business or medical science or other related objectives.
Again, the President has quite correctly identified a wide spectrum of such needs. And he has undertaken efforts to address them, especially in ways that also contribute to the recovery of the economy and an increase in American-made products with international markets, or domestic consumers presently satisfying their demands with imported goods.
This kind of investment is usually financed with bond revenues, at maturation rates ranging from a few years to 25 or more years. "Hard" investments, meaning buildings, bridges, railroads, etc., are often financed with directly-linked bond issues - the buyers know precisely for what their money is to be spent. Some of these projects, although not all, may be revenue-producing, when completed, or have various taxes, fees or assessments associated with them, from which some or all of the bond payments are made.
Such projects then are essentially "self-liquidating," although a liability exists until the bonds are retired because if the income falls short, then the public entity guaranteeing them must step up. Still, in the case of this type of debt, it’s reasonable to argue that it be excluded from the debate over debt and expenditures because it also has relatively little effect on actual demand on the Treasury. There is minimal taxpaayer impact but significant public benefit.
"Soft" investments such as education or research, may be financed through general revenue bonds or other instruments that are backed by taxpayer funds and any other non-obligated Federal income. The objective of these commitments is - or at least could be argued to be - a form of "national defense" because the country as a whole is committed to ensuring America is meeting the future needs of its economy, its population, and all other aspects of national life affected by these investments.
If some of these investments are focused on immediate concerns, as for example the Small Business Investment program the President succeeded in passing last year, then they are certainly aimed at protecting our economic recovery and sustaining it in a national emergency.
This type of debt may be necessary to continue to meet both immediate and long-term goals. As a matter of public policy, before targeting all such programs of this kind for either elimination or very deep cuts, each should be individually debated and open decisions reached about them. But also, some means of paying off this debt needs to be specified if it is to be sustained - again, reached by open debate.
A prefereable choice may be some targeted increases in revenue, as well as a "reserve fund" of some certain per cent built up from rising Federal receipts that attend the growth of the economy and continued economic recovery. That provides both "current receipts" contributions to debt service and retirement, as well as acknowledgement that as things improve in the future, the money generated has already been spoken for - and won't be available for any other purposes or to encourage new spending programs.
C. "Cost of living" borrowing: The term in this sense means keeping up with anything else like other long-term debt service, social safety net costs, expenses of any government operations, military expenditures apart from war financing, salaries for solons, paying for Veterans' Hospitals, and sometimes having a party such as the Cowboy Poetry Festival. Aside from the Department of Defense Budget, this "discretionary" spending, according to the President, amounts to 12% of the national budget.
In addition, debt service payments are part of the "cost of living." Borrowing to pay the interest charges is something like making one credit card payment with a different credit card - this is, absolutely unsustainable unless there is a clear understanding of just why and how such borrowing is made, it serves a vital public interest, and there is a clear program to bring it to an end within a foreseeable period of time.
Medicaid and Social Security Trust Fund Repayment
Is a National Obligation
It is essential that the public understand that borrowing to pay interest payments or retire general revenue bonds is actually the impact of Medicare and Social Security on the national deficit and national debt. Sixty per cent of the national debt is owed to the Social Security and Medicare trust funds - the country is not paying for Social Security or Medicare benefits, the people who are eligible for the benefits paid for them ahead of time. It is a gross inaccuracy that distorts the debate to call these programs "entitlements" - beneficiaries paid up front.
It was this borrowing, from the late 1960's forward, that has truly been a problem. To default on the debt owed to the American people - taken from the Social Security and Medicare trust funds - by either "privatizing" these programs or essentially chopping them to small bits - is a massive betrayal of trust. This is a debt that the nation must face squarely and accept as an obligation of honor.
Most of the spending cuts thus far proposed avoid the 800-pound gorilla in the room by instead taking out on America's no. 1 debtor - the American people - and then blaming the victim for the problem. But the gorilla is that painful, tedious and necessary attention to spending cuts, program by program, over time, are only half the problem. The other half is revenues. There is absolutely no way to address cumulative deficits and mounting debt without increasing revenues.
Overall, a planned program to both increase revenues from targeted tax increases and boost Federal receipts by supporting further economic recovery and if necessary restoring new Deal type programs like the Works Progress Administration to sharply decrease unemployment is necessary. Judicious government cuts may have to be made alongside commitments that for another two to four years may continue some deficit spending - but more effort to address debt retirement through dedication of some added revenues must be a part of the package.
It IS absolutely clear that revenues must be increased in combination with judicious spending cuts. There are many avenues for increasing revenue worthy of consideration that do not threaten economic recovery or job creation. The nation has learned, the hard way, that Milton Friedman's "trickle down theory of economics" is utter bunkum.
Working people pay a direct tax to support Medicaid. For anyone who has been working since 1965, those substantial payments represent a sort of medical annuity The trust funds were somewhat forcibly required to be lent at interest, which should be applicable now to the value of that annuity.
The major reforms that will benefit Medicare have yet to occur - they consist of addressing health care costs. Mainly, they consist of dumping the Reagan-era reimbursement "reforms" that substantially underly the skyrocketing costs of medical services.
The GOP/TP approach to the debt ceiling is unreasonable, unworkable, and unjust. It is the worst possible way to pursue public policy, and it relies on the public not understanding the character of debt, deficits and the financing of a government.
Hey Biteme - its part of the Bolshevik playbook ... blame others for what they do. On a bigger stage the dems are trying to accuse repubs of destroying the economy - when in fact, the thing that is weighing down the economy is massive debt and spending (pretty obvious which side that is coming from).
Evidence of our public school system litters these blogs as it becomes increasingly clear that bumper sticker slogans and sound bites make up the sum body of knowledge possessed by the slackers.
Its sad to me to see that a Navy vet, and others, have been so bamboozled that their lives have come down to begging for scraps that their politicians drop off the table. Please understand ... rhetoric is not a proxy for leadership. Obama likes to fly around in his corporate jet and whip up class envy by suggesting that closing a tax loophole will make any difference other than killing the jobs of workers (a loophole he created btw). And now that he has to "lead" a congress that doesn't just rubber stamp his socialist agenda - he storms out of the room in a hissy.
I've made the mistaken assumption that conservatives and Bolsheviks wanted the same thing - an improved economy that generated jobs and created opportunity. It is clear by the words on this blog that its not jobs the Bolsheviks want, but handouts. Hence the class warfare "tax the rich" dogma. Try to re-write history all you want ... but its been proven time and time again (Kennedy, Reagan, Bush) that tax cuts stimulate the economy. Please provide examples where tax and spend have produced improved economies (in the current case - the strategy is spend and tax)?
Before you ask where the jobs are under the Bush/Obama tax cuts - try this one on ... the tax cuts have saved or created over 2-million jobs ... not the bogus stimulus boondoggle. Without the tax cuts, we'd probably be at 15% unemployment.
Works both ways Bolsheviks.
In the end, quit worrying about what someone else has and how you can get your hands on it - and start worrying about how you might become a productive member of society by creating and selling value to your fellow man.
And if you want to talk about give vs take ... fact: most charity comes from the right. In fact, as pathetic as it is, although I make a fraction of Joe Biden ... I've given 4x as much to charity. But that about sums it up - the Bolsheviks assuage the guilt of their own greed by getting all righteous and insisting that someone else foot the bill for problems.
It is a pathetic and destructive philosophy the Bolsheviks espouse; sugar coated in flowery rhetoric.
Well for those that think this is just a scare tactic look at the stock market, a lot of people will lose their shirts if this childs game persist, people will lose more value on their 401K, now how are all these people going too feel come election day, guess what it will be Obama in 2012 and both the House and Senate will be Democratically controlled and guess what you will see a rise in taxes and all the Loop holes closed it will be all for nothing, I hope Obama does not give an inch and force the GOP to let a default happen, won't hurt the Democrats one bit but it will kill of the GOP fruit cakes once and for all ..... and they all can see how the other side lives ... LOL LOL LOL
DASVET:
You are a lair. Show where I have every said that above. I never said anything above above charging anybody with treason. Do not put words in my mouth because that just makes you a LIAR - PERIOD.
See people, this is what happens and you have a party that is lost and impotent. They start making up lies about what people said or did not say.
Nice try, you can go crawl back under your slimy smelly rock with the rest of your buds.
They are being outsourced to india because taxes are so high here it's not worth hiring Americans. They are in china because manufacturing costs are so high here it's more profitable to manufacture out of the country. They are not being created as big businesses are cutting costs due to fear of inflation and higher taxes.
So why is it that you think increasing government spending, rasising taxes and forcing more jobs out of the country is a good thing?
What's the point of a "debt ceiling" if it's raised every time the government wants more of your money?
John A.-400474
Great post.
It took me a while to read your post; normally I wouldn’t even scan one that long, because they are usually a long winded political rhetoric rant ….
It needs a title like : What’s really at stake with out the spin.
Mr. Boz, you are serious playing the "Bolshevik" bit? Give it up, man, the Bolsheviks died with Lenin in 1924, and ain't none of them around here. (Read some Russian and political history, you'll eventually get it.) I see you love to use this term a lot - well, get educated first.
As for your assertion that the tax cuts created 2 million jobs ... which ones? Obama's stimulus tax cuts (and other features of the program) helped create perhaps as many as 3.3 million jobs, but the Bush tax cuts resulted in a net loss up to 2008 of more than 4 million jobs. The ENTIRE conservative program implemented since 1980 has been a costly, utter failure that led DIRECTLY to the collapse of 2007-2008.
Many of the people that troll the internet act devilish in nature as they seek whom they may devour. It's truly a shame that the only way they can cope with life is by attempting to talk down to people that they 'disagree' with.
Many of the characteristics evoked by many of the Republicans on this forum alone are akin to the adversaries of the Civil Rights Movement, especially the Freedom Riders. Mob like mentalities and acts of aggression have no place in civil debates. Either present an idea or leave it alone.
According to a new Quinnipiac poll, 54 percent of those surveyed say Bush is responsible for the "current condition" of the economy, compared to just 27 percent who blame Obama. Among self-described independent voters, a key 2012 voting bloc, the number shifts slightly: 49 percent point the finger at the former GOP president, while 24 percent blame Obama.
One more time...
George Bush, Dick Cheney and the Republican led Congress from 2001-2007 is awaiting trial and that begins January 2013.
12 years, thousands of troops and civilian deaths and Trillions of dollars later is entirely too long.
getabrain, you need to get one.
That's a lie. They are being outsourced because of corporate greed. They want their stockholders to have an extra few pennies without ever considering that if people don't have jobs no one can buy their produce. What we see today is the result of a decade of jobs leaving the country and it won't get better until companies commit to building America. Unfortunately I won't live that long.
LetMeExplain - thanks for your comment and taking the trouble to read the piece. I agree it's really too long for a post, which is why I put it up months ago as an article. It was the general relevance now that decided me on putting it up. And where WERE you when I was fishing for a headline? Good suggestion!
So True Feisty.
"My my... the right wing nitwits are really is a snit today! lmao
Carry on COLLAPSE COWARDS... you're doing a might fine job showing America you don't give a DAMN about free speech... ;o)
Again, one has to wonder why the collapse ratio is 10:1 for progressives? Can't handle the truth?
HIDE IT!"
@ John,
I am the first to admit that the details of budget, spending, revenue that go into a federal budget make my eyes glaze over. but I do know the tired metaphor of" its just like a household budget is way too simplistic."
I also know that a budget is a also a political statement. It reveals what the government holds as valuable and important. There is a adage in church circles: A church budget is the best theological statement the coummunity can have." What are we willing to spend our money ?
John A - that was an EXCELLENT synopsis of Governmental debt and why it is necessary. I am sure that many of our Libertarian friends would question why we need debt in the first place, and there is an argument for that; however, having ALL of the facts/points/perspectives in front of you will help you make a better, reasoned decision.
Kudos to you, John A., for a job well done.
North, is it a political statement when one party chooses to never cut back on programs that are actually an income re-distributive action, when we are spending forty percent more than the government takes in? Those programs will be cut, it is just a matter of time until international monetary policy will cram it down our throats. Increasing a debt limit every time the government overspends will lead us to that dreaded scenario.
All the tax cuts did was reduce the need for the wealthy to reinvest. (Unless you call giving money to the GOP to keep the tax cuts as investment) The wealthy do not create jobs or hire extra people. Corporations do. Give businesses the tax breaks they need and tax the hell out of personal income but also stop individuals from incorporating themselves. If they don't have a legitimate corporation...let the IRS determine that then tax them.
There is no way a CEO that is driving a company car for his personal use should be tax deductible. Same with a private jet. None of these things should be tax free.
Michelle, thanks for the tip on "ALEC Exposed". http://www.thenation.com/article/161978/alec-exposed
ALEC is one of the big overlooked stories of this year. They are the clearinghouse that allows the SAME draconian legislation to pop up in state after state at the same time. They are the choir directors that keep the Conservative choir singing the same hymns.
John A spoke elsewhere about the Conservative conspiracy...here it is.
Larry, Obama flies /drives free, and he is something like a CEO. The wealthy do not create jobs? Damn, every investor is a wealthy person in the liberal mind. How many non-government jobs do poor people create? Who owns corporations, poor people, well maybe their pensions are invested, but how else does a poor person create a job? If individuals cannot incorporate, then there goes the small business man.
@Davet, My point is budgets reveal what we hold important. A church budget that spends most of it money on an church building and little on direct outreach reveals that woship space is the highest priorty. A government budget that spends most of its money on defense and little on infrastructure shows the highest priority is protection from our enemies and not a lot of protection of its citizens who use its roads, bridges and waterways. Priorities can change and programs can be adjusted.But we still need both defence and infrastructure.
Your reference to programs tthat you call "income-redistribution" , please clarify.
thank you
No defense, and the rest doesn't matter very much. The progressive income tax is the prime income re-distribution effort, as if you didn't know that. It isn't very complex, but when we spend grossly over the taxes collected for a long period of time, there are dire consequences, i.e inflation, devaluing of the dollar as placed against the world currencies. In any case, the individual and the government both, cannot do it long. The Greeks long ago said that a true democracy is destined for failure at that point when the takers from the government can out vote the producers. I think we are at, or very near that point. Of course there are priorities, but a broke nation eventually has no priority setting ability. No one doesn't care for those in need, but we have to separate those in need from those just in want, such as "I don't want to work for my subsistence".
Dasvet, let me see if I can simplify this for you. Example. The wealthy that put their money into oil speculation do not create jobs...the oil companies that drill for oil do. In no way does the speculation in oil create jobs..it's the demand for oil that creates jobs. The people that make money from buying and selling Ford, Gm, Toyota, etc. stock do not create jobs... the demand for those autos creates jobs. I know you will argue that buying and selling stock creates jobs in the stock market but does it really? Those jobs have been there for many decades and I fail to see where it would create more jibs if the wealthy have more money to invest. It takes the same amount of work to buy 100 shares as it does to buy 1000 shares.
One or more people can incorporate themselves and never produce a product of perform a service. Lawyers incorporate themselves but they perform a service which is perfectly legal. What I'm referring to are those that incorporate themselves or family that perform no service nor produce any product strictly to get tax breaks from the loopholes given to corporations such as a private jet or vehicle deducted from their income tax. I knew people that did this.
Now to your reference to Obama "flies /drives free, and he is something like a CEO", that's about as ignorant of a statement that I have ever heard. You're going to compare him to the CEOs of the auto industry whom the Republicans in congress had a problem when they flew to DC in a private jet instead of taking commercial transportation. Wow, I just don't know what else to say about that one.
You said: "The progressive income tax is the prime income re-distribution effort, as if you didn't know that." I believe you're implying that the tax money would be given to the poor. Did it ever occur that the Republican plan is to cast the cost of the Iraq war onto the shoulders of the seniors by cutting their services which they have paid for through FICA deductions all their lives?
Dasvet, Yes, I know about the income tax and that it is progressve. I don't think anything is wrong with that. I do agree with you that there are dire consequences when spending and income are so far out of balance. I believe the government must raise new revenue and indeed cut spending to regain some balance.I prefer to raise income taxes. Others want to stop subsidies to oil, corn growes etc, close loop holes and look at other means of raising revenue.And we both agree that any government needs to help those in need.
The distinction between need and want is very important. I believe everyone in the richest country on earth needs to have decent healthcare. But why should the insurance company my employer picked for me(which we both pay the premiums) get a brake on prescription drug cost and Medicare cannot bargain for a decent price for seniors ? Let's fix that. We have a stupid law in MN that a eye prescription is only good for two years! Here is the "wants 'of eye doctors and their lobbyist becoming law. My eyes have not changed for years. But I have to go to a doctor and spend money for an exam just to get a renewal of my prescription for NEW glasses or contacts.
Larry, what you've said is an important point that's commonly missed. There's evidence to support the contention that the very wealthy now have so much money it's seriously detrimental to the economy on a long term basis. The first point is that this intense concentration of wealth has so seriously compromised the middle class that our economy isn't as broadly based as it has in the past. Without a healthy middle class the economy just doesn't recover from setbacks like it did before Republican Conservatives triggered a mass redistribution of wealth to the top.
This massive upward wealth redistribution has given the very rich so much money that they actually compromise the economy in their never-ending search for the "next big thing." The shameful speculation in the oil markets is effectively stealing from the rest of us, pulling down the entire economy in the process. The trucking industry is far from a Liberal bastion of power, and even they want to see increased regulation on the oil markets. http://www.truckline.com/pages/article.aspx?id=551%2F{8E1C7279-ED27-4C03-B189-CEEEE26BBB12}
Why wouldn't the trucking industry be just like the rest of us, wanting lower fuel prices? You act surprised, and I am surprised that you are surprised at that. Hasn't a thing to do with liberal/conservative, imho.
I'm not at all surprised, Dasvet. Much of our inflation currently originates with speculation in the oil market, either in direct cost of oil products or increased costs of products that require transport. That would be virtually everything, btw.
When will Conservative Republicans stop blocking improved regulation of the commodities markets in order to keep the rest of us from being robbed by speculators?
John, you seemed surprised in your earlier post. btw, why didn't liberals improve the regulation of the commodities in order to keep the rest of us from being robbed by speculators, when they had both houses of Congress until 2010's election, not to mention owning the White House since Jan 2009? Short answer, I don't know why in each case.
Why didn't Liberals improve the regulation of commodities? Same reason Liberals haven't improved a lot of things over the last couple of years. Republican filibuster;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25078420/ns/business-oil_and_energy/t/senate-republicans-block-taxes-oil-profits/
If only Conservatives wanted to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. If you want to know why, look into ALEC and the rest of the support structure for the GOPTP that's been created by their wealthy elite supporters.
anyone see the opening segment of Rachael Maddows' show last night? Dim and Dimmer...it was hilarious and so true.
Her piece was excellent and then again she usually is. She can go off on a tangent at times but she is my favorite.
I also liked how Lawrence O'donnell countered Cantor's description of the President walking out of the debt meeting. O'donnell told how he has personally been in scores of these meetings at the White House and that every meeting with the President ends when he leaves the room. Have we "ever" seen the President lose his cool? i don't think so Eric
Cantor is a spoiled little brat trying to make a name for himself. He is succeeding but the name he is making is not a good one.
Actually Chris, as ususal, hardly anyone saw Keanu Maddow's show last night. Just as hardly anyone saw Keith Olbermann's show (what channel is he on?), hardly anyone saw Chris "Tingle Leg" Matthew's show, or Lawrence O'Connell's show either. You see, the American public would rather watch shows about dogs, doctors or fat sluts from Jersey then watch an hour of whiny, bitter, leftwing condescending bullcrap.
Chris, Dorr, MI,
One reason Dim and Dimmer were so funny is that it is so very true! Also, the names have a kind of a "ring" to them, like a comedy act!
The Republican-Tea Bagger collapse chickens are at it again.
Reposted from #1.0 Above – Courtesy the Collapsing Cowards that visit this board.
And the Debt Saga continues and President Obama made it abundantly clear for the last time yesterday that he is putting everything on the Discussion Table and the hell with his political career. He is not concerned about his political life but is 100% committed to this country. Talk about leadership.
In yesterday’s meeting Cantor acted like a little kid, interrupted the President spouting talking points and NOT ONE idea. Kind of like many of the right that visit this board every day so you can pretty well imagine the nature of those talks yesterday.
Then Cantor tried to say that President Obama stormed out of the meeting which was later proved to be false. Hypocrite, who is the one that walks out of meetings. Again, blame somebody else for the very same thing that you are guilty of. The President told all of them in no uncertain words that they were doing exactly what this country finds so repugnant about politics. He told them to go get their acts together and start finding solutions to the problem and then adjourned the meeting.
Somebody name one thing that the GOP/TP has compromised on in the DEBT meetings, one thing. President Obama has put entitlements on the table for discussion, reducing the DOD budget, just about everything and the GOP/TP has not offered one compromise of their own. Not one, just like they have not done one thing to move this country forward in the last 2years plus.
Where are the jobs bill that they promised in 2010, where are their plans to improve the economy that they promised in 2010. Again nothing, no jobs bill, no economic stimulus, big cuts to education, and absolutely NO LEADERSHIP.
I told you this is not about the Debt Ceiling. I told you that the GOP/TP was not going to do anything to move this country forward. I told you it is about Power and Greed, It is about Class Warfare. It is about the wholesale destruction of the economy, our credit status and global chaos.
The GOP/TP is a cancer on this country and it is time for it to be surgically removed, period. They serve no value to this country at all and in fact are the disease that is rotting this country from the inside out.
We are in big trouble and the GOP/TP is not going to be able to “cut and Run” on this issue and it will come back to bite them. You think the sacrifice our President is asking us to make now is a big deal, just wait and watch what happens next. The difference is that we will not be able to control any of it once it starts. The Great Depression will look like a picnic compared to what is coming.
Watching Joe Blow this morning and the question was presented what did the GOP/TP do to move this country forward. The answer “The Ryan Budget Bill” you know the one that repeals Medicare and Medicaid, cuts the budgets of 50 or more Social Safety Nets like education, medical research, FEMA, FDA, etc, etc and takes those savings to give record tax cuts to the top 2%. Oh that bill. And it adds almost 6 trillion dollars to the deficit/debt over the next decade that means the Debt Ceiling will have to be increased to implement that bill if it passes. Hypocrites/Liars – all of them.
Come on people time to wake up and connect the dots.
To believe that by eliminating the GOP and Tea Party, the Democrats, can solve all of our problems is total nonsense. They are the primary reason that we are in this debt ceiling bind since they gave away billions in the past 3 years, which is what Democrats do. Give money to those who are not even paying taxes. It's time somebody stood up to the Chicago thugs that have taken over the White House.
1st.. thank you for serving and 2, you make good points and we are all still wondering if we the public can see and questions all of the trillions of funds and wonder where are the jobs???? why can't the house see this and resolve it!
I agree with navy vet cantor is another newt has no respect for the pres, & is all mouth, they could`n agree what they say & how many times have the repbs, walked out ??
I Must,
So much Tea Bagger talk. The Bagger People are so illiterate as far as economics is concerned.
Yes, you missed sumthin. Our bloated national debt is ENTIRELY the fault of Republicans and their failed Supply Side theory of economics. For enlightenment see here; http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
I must have missed sumthin
Did you know that it's a fact (something you guys don't deal with) that Reagan, Bush1, Bush2 have increased debt, the size of fed. gov., the military, the spending, the unemployment...
yet, you guys still call them the "fiscally responsible"...go figure.
Please post any reference that calls Bush 2 fiscally responsible.
Cantor is such a baby is he not? Storming out in a tantrum, crying like a Bonner I mean baby... Its obvious Cantor has been the grand wizard of there caucus and it is clear there caucus is full of hate a racists period. People can only be this stupid with so much at stake when there ignorance and stupidity over ride the common since they had if they ever had it. Every time they degrade Obama they degrade EVERY American who voted him in by a land slide.
They the republican tea baggers spit on Americans will the majorities will every time they refuse to compromise with the president we overwhelmingly voted in. Every time. They do not care. Why? Because there racism will NEVER allow them to do what a BLACK man tells them even when hes our president voted in by a landslide. You may try to say that is simply not true mowdy5000. And I say then look at there record under Obama. What have republican tea baggers accomplished under this president? ... Huh? Nothing.
Because there spite and absolute hate will not allow them to participate in the office's they swore to uphold and protect... Wake up. Every time they treat our president without respect and without regard for what Americans are suffering through is another reason to insure they NEVER hold power again. Because they are so mind wiped full of hate and bigotry they will not get it until they are thrown out on there you know what... ; ]
There! I threw my juice on it
mowdy5000 2011
www.stillmakingithurt@ndulikeit.comm
Cheers
I see Navy has moved on from cut and paste of ThinkProgress to cut and paste of his one post of the day.
Wow Navy this is really easy and quick. As I've changed one sentence do I have to reference back to the original report or just the original post?
So the election 2012 will be whether we want austerity as proposed by the Republicans or austerity as imposed by the IMF.
John B,
"Entirely"? I think you must have missed something, then. That something being every democratic president or Dem-controlled congress since Reagan took office. The debt fault lies on both parties.
Keynesian economics have failed us, yet the Dems keep trying to shove it down our throats. Trickle-down economics have failed us, yet the Reps keep trying to tell us it's the milk we need.
How about we kick them both out of office and elect people who can think for themselves? In 2012, VOTE FOR AN ENGINEER!
Please stop. Please stop blaming Republicans and Democrats. Stop being a PART of the problem. The PROBLEM is BOTH of them. There ARE NO GOOD GUYS here. You're in a 'lesser of 2-evils' discussion. Think about it. Can you name a single other 'workplace' in America (firehouse, department store, restaurant, police station, whatever) where the people who work there are constantly at each others throats, hating each other, pointing fingers at one another --- instead of working together to get the job done? The SINGLE ONLY WORKPLACE IN THE U.S.A where divisive behavior is not only 'the rule' but is 'encouraged' and 'accepted' is OUR CONGRESS. And YOU encourage it. Look at your comments. "It's Cantors fault" No... "it's Obama's fault". No... "it's Bush's fault." Wait... "It's McConnells fault". No... "it's Pelosi's fault." WAKE UP!!! Connect the dots. If this is a government "of the people, by the people and for the people" AND "we're the people" = what does that say about us? Listen to yourselves. You're acting JUST LIKE THEM!!! Frightening. It's truly a sad day when an old fart is the only breath of fresh air in a room. Fedupoldfarts.com
The Salem witch trials were the reason why our founding fathers decided we needed a separation of church and state. They felt the religious were too emotional to be able to govern in a just and fair way.
Watching the new group of Republican presidential hopefuls I do believe the founding fathers got it right.
Then watching the recalls in Wisconsin, they got fooled by the Tea-Vangelicals. Everybody is watching how the Republicans tried to subvert a Democratic election. How long do you think it will take a Wisconsin to every trust a Republican again or for anybody else to trust the GOP that has watched their slime?
All their big talk on jobs and poof no jobs. But if you elect us in 2012 we will do something about jobs, but meanwhile we think the unemployed are lazy and could get a job if they wanted. If only we could TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK to slavery why things would be better than they are today says the pledge signed by the Republican current front runner.
With no jobs in sight, what is the important bill to vote on to the Republicans? Light Bulbs
Remember their no tax increase ever superceeds their oath to be loyal to our country.
Alan, NJ
such reference does not exist because he was not. That's the point. None of them were. Yet, TP/GOPer keep implying that Republican = Fiscally Responsible.
Bayllie,
They are saying compared to Obama, Bush was more responsible.
In plain site they were both baboons.
Alan, I DID post a link showing that Bush 2 was fiscally irresponsible...care to rebut?
C Smith, as far as your attempt to deflect enough blame onto Democrats to avoid responsibility;
Mark-1219747
small difference between the two: Bush took 8 years to increase the debt, the unemployment, spending, the military, the size of the federal gov.
Obama has been in office for 2.6 months and he was given this $hit on a silver platter by his predecessor.
Remind me again, what unemplyment %, debt, spending, size of fed. gov and miliraty, non-existing part D (spending fiasco), non-existing financial meltdown, non-existing housing bubble collapse, etc did Bush inherit from Clinton?
to compare the starting point of the two presidents is ridiculous.
Yes, he responsible alright but not in a good way.
He's responsible for the Medicare Pare D that only benefited the drug companies.
He's responsible for the $1.6 trillion tax cut that benefited the wealthy.
He's responsible for taking a budget surplus and turning it into a deficit.
He's responsible for falling asleep while terrorist flew plans into the World Trade Center.
He's responsible of outing a CIA agent working undercover.
He's responsible for Powell testifying before the UN with false information.
He's responsible for lying to congress about Iraqi nuclear capability.
He's responsible for lying about Iraq buying yellow cake uranium.
He's responsible for invading Iraq under false information.
He's responsible for nearly $5 trillion of the national debt.
I'm sure there are many more things he's responsible for but I've got to go get a bite to eat.
Larry-2260635,
you can tell these people that Bush turned this country upside down and they will tell you:
1. Don't blame Bush - he's the past (until it's time to take credit for Bin Laden).
2. It's the Democrats' fault even though the Republicans voted 7 times (including the 4 Republican Stooges) UNDER BUSH to increase the debt ceiling. Now, if Bush was NOT a spender, why did they borrow like crazy?????? Why did he finish off SS to hide the spending? Why isn't there lots of money in the treasury?
Nice post by the way.
Picking Winners and Losers. Somewhat lost in the latest debate over whether or not the President should take the deal offered by the Turtle Man is who really loses. On the surface of the political deal you can get 6 to 5 and pick ‘em. I’m talking about who really loses something tangible.
We do. You do remember We the People don’t you. You know the vast majority that get up at o’dark thirty and head off to somehow move the world a little forward. And will get up tomorrow and the next day and all the days we can to make something happen to keep body and soul together.
It becomes fairly obvious that our present economic policies don’t work no matter how hard some of us tries to convince the other of us. Let me repeat. Supply Side ain’t never worked, won’t never work, can’t never work. Just ain’t happening. Thirty years of evidence tells me that and in all my years of messing with it I have found no evidence to the contrary.
Tax cuts won’t work so it becomes patently obvious that we are going to have to raise revenue one way or another. Whether this president raises revenue or the next one does is at this point irreverent. In order to keep our government running then somebody is going to do it or we will perish from this earth and go down in the history books as the late great experiment. Now a cut of expenses of about 2/3 and raising revenues about 1/3 sounded like a good start to me.
So we pass up on a chance to put this to bed and move on to bigger and better things who loses? Why all the folks that we could put back to work with not having so much debt. All the infrastructure we could build and all the teachers, fireman, policeman and public employees we could put back to work. Because at the heart of the matter this is what we are talking about. Putting money back in the pockets of the people that will then spend it and raise even more revenue and so on and so forth.
Who blinked begs the larger question of who was served. Whether President Obama should have held firm or whether Sen. McConnell was right in his beliefs is important only to us that study the politics of the thing.
Because most of us now know that we are going to have to wait for a year and a half before we might get some relief. And if that’s not a shame then the Pope’s not Catholic.
IR:
Outstanding. You have summed it up. The "Obstructionist" Party is not going to move one iota. It appears that Cantor is running the show and Boehner is nothing more than a figure head at this point.
We are going to have to wait until 2012 when the Democrats take back the House to see any relief.
Eric Cantor is beneath contempt and may be guilty of treason.
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/06/27/eric_cantor_conflict_of_interest/index.html
Maybe I'm naive, or maybe it's because some of my favorite relatives are Republicans, but I really believed the Tea Party wanted to reduce the deficit and rein in entitlement spending. I don't understand how come the rak and file conservatives aren't angry with their party for passing up the Grand Bargain, the deal of the century, something that could only be achieved with a popular Democratic President and a Republican House. Why aren't the conservatives angry the Republicans are stepping back just to preserve tax loopholes?
Amy, would you care to enlighten any of us about what was IN that "deal of the century"? See, no one- and that includes the politicians on both sides in the debt talks- knows what the heck Obama was proposing.
Including Obama.
So, please, if you have some inside information- do tell.
The sad thing is these Republicans Tea Party people that are so illiterate as far as economics, is concerned, they want to roll the dice and not raise the debt ceiling. If it wasn't so serious an issue, it would be fun to see their reaction when all of their savings goes bye-bye as the markets crash.
However, it looks like the wealthy want the Republicans to make a deal, because they stand to lose a lot more if we default than they would lose after the tax loop holes are closed.
Also, let's remember the Bush tax cuts do expire in December 2012 and they aren't going to be extended.
Amy:
I have been asking the same question. The righties here seem to forget that President Obama offered a 4 Triillion dollar proposal. They could have gone with that and take partialcredit for doing the right thing. Instead they said no which was the primary indication that this is not about the Debt Ceiling.
It is all about capitalizing on the fear of this country to gain more power and wealth at our expense. That is all the GOP/TP is concerned with, they are not concerned about you, me or the other 98% of the population. Just them and only them.
Hi IR,
Good story. Let's hope this little punk goes to jail. Thanks
"Eric Cantor is beneath contempt and may be guilty of treason."
Nobel prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz sees it clearly;
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/52027.html#ixzz1S5cuqZq6
Cuts:
Total: $1.7 trillion to $2.3 trillion
Revenues:
Total: $422 billion
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-a-debt-ceiling-grand-bargain-looks-like-2011-7
Amy, thank you for providing information on what Zeke Miller says a deal MIGHT look like.
I do not recall his being elected to any office, let alone the presidency. I asked you for details on OBAMA'S proposal. Let me save you some trouble- he has none. It's like his campaign speeches- long on rhetoric, but designed to allow you to infer whatever you want.
That's your idea of an adult? Cause, that's my definition of a weasel.
Then again, if you can continue to worship a man who lied about his own dying mother, there is no hope for you.
Although reading all these bombastic posts is entertaining it shows that republican miss-direction and deception are alive and well, the only thing that is holding up an agreement to reduce the deficit is the fact the republicans will never agree to having their masters pay their fair share to help the country, if they can't reduce the deficit squarely on the backs of the poor and middle class they are not interested, the rest is just smoke and mirrors to confuse the public, looks like it's working.
Go get her NJ......
Reposted from #1.0 Above – Courtesy the Collapsing Cowards that visit this board.
And the Debt Saga continues and President Obama made it abundantly clear for the last time yesterday that he is putting everything on the Discussion Table and the hell with his political career. He is not concerned about his political life but is 100% committed to this country. Talk about leadership.
In yesterday’s meeting Cantor acted like a little kid, interrupted the President spouting talking points and NOT ONE idea. Kind of like many of the right that visit this board every day so you can pretty well imagine the nature of those talks yesterday.
Then Cantor tried to say that President Obama stormed out of the meeting which was later proved to be false. Hypocrite, who is the one that walks out of meetings. Again, blame somebody else for the very same thing that you are guilty of. The President told all of them in no uncertain words that they were doing exactly what this country finds so repugnant about politics. He told them to go get their acts together and start finding solutions to the problem and then adjourned the meeting.
Somebody name one thing that the GOP/TP has compromised on in the DEBT meetings, one thing. President Obama has put entitlements on the table for discussion, reducing the DOD budget, just about everything and the GOP/TP has not offered one compromise of their own. Not one, just like they have not done one thing to move this country forward in the last 2years plus.
Where are the jobs bill that they promised in 2010, where are their plans to improve the economy that they promised in 2010. Again nothing, no jobs bill, no economic stimulus, big cuts to education, and absolutely NO LEADERSHIP.
I told you this is not about the Debt Ceiling. I told you that the GOP/TP was not going to do anything to move this country forward. I told you it is about Power and Greed, It is about Class Warfare. It is about the wholesale destruction of the economy, our credit status and global chaos.
The GOP/TP is a cancer on this country and it is time for it to be surgically removed, period. They serve no value to this country at all and in fact are the disease that is rotting this country from the inside out.
We are in big trouble and the GOP/TP is not going to be able to “cut and Run” on this issue and it will come back to bite them. You think the sacrifice our President is asking us to make now is a big deal, just wait and watch what happens next. The difference is that we will not be able to control any of it once it starts. The Great Depression will look like a picnic compared to what is coming.
Watching Joe Blow this morning and the question was presented what did the GOP/TP do to move this country forward. The answer “The Ryan Budget Bill” you know the one that repeals Medicare and Medicaid, cuts the budgets of 50 or more Social Safety Nets like education, medical research, FEMA, FDA, etc, etc and takes those savings to give record tax cuts to the top 2%. Oh that bill. And it adds almost 6 trillion dollars to the deficit/debt over the next decade that means the Debt Ceiling will have to be increased to implement that bill if it passes. Hypocrites/Liars – all of them.
Come on people time to wake up and connect the dots.
No joe,
I appreciate Amy's list to get an idea of what the cuts could be. However, could it be that the exact details aren't being put out by the President because it is a fluid negotiation?
I think her original question was why would the GOP who have preached that we need cuts, as many cuts as possible, pass on the so called grand bargain of 4 trillion? If they agreed to revenue increases and everyone was on board they could immediately list every single cut.
Regarding your take on the story about Obama's mother and insurance, I understood that Obama said his mother argued with her insurance company not that they denied her medical coverage. It appears as if they actually denied disablity coverage.
_______________
Mr. Obama had not mischaracterized the facts because his mother needed her disability insurance payments to cover unreimbursed medical costs....
“As Ms. Scott’s account makes clear, the president’s mother incurred several hundred dollars in monthly uncovered medical expenses that she was relying on insurance to pay,” Mr. Papas said. “She first could not get a response from the insurance company, then was refused coverage. This personal history of the president’s speaks powerfully to the impact of pre-existing condition limits on insurance protection from health care costs.”
In his second debate with Senator John McCain of Arizona, in October 2008, he said: “For my mother to die of cancer at the age of 53 and have to spend the last months of her life in the hospital room arguing with insurance companies because they’re saying that this may be a pre-existing condition and they don’t have to pay her treatment, there’s something fundamentally wrong about that.”
From New York Times July 13th - Kevin Sack
__________
Also, just a point about the personal name calling of late; I think you are above that?
It's really a useless discussion, because they were negotiating a PACKAGE, not a MENU. Because Republicans walked away before the package was complete;
Conservatives walked away from $4T in cuts.
Conservatives walked away from $2T in cuts.
All to prevent the rich from contributing a small amount that they could well afford toward fixing the budget.
Sorry, Mark, but what you quoted was some spin- go back and read Obama's speeches on the subject. He quite clearly stated, on at least two different occasions, that his mother was fighting with her health care insurer, that they tried to deny her claims for treatment while she was dying.
What was left after her insurer covered her claims were deductibles. She tried and failed to get disability insurance- and asked her "son and attorney" to intervene. There is no record that he ever did so.
So, yes, Mark, Obama is despicable. I would say it to him, as I say it about him. This is no far right website offering this story, but the New York Times.
I also question any who could defend such a lie- and make no bones about it. I also question the personal integrity those who defend anti- Semitism- evidenced in the first thread.
For the record- I did not call Amy any "names"- I told her there was no hope for someone who could worship at the feet of a calculating, despicable liar.
And I stand by that.
I see Navy has moved on from cut and paste of ThinkProgress to cut and paste of his one post of the day.
Wow Navy this is really easy and quick. As I've changed one sentence do I have to reference back to the original re-post, the previous re-post or just the original post?
So the election 2012 will be whether we want austerity as proposed by the Republicans or austerity as imposed by the IMF.
No Joe, I was quoting from a New York times story from July 13th, maybe you've seen another?
Anti-semitism? Believe me I don't defend Anti-semitism. At times I've called my own side out, if I didn't do it fast enough for you on this issue I will now. I often wonder why the right doesn't call out their own when a rightie goes over the line.
I have not followed that whole tread with MB and D Walker. I happen to enjoy reading both of their posts and believe they bring a lot to the table. Not sure when it all played out, dates etc. But from what I gather from today and yesterday, I agree that Mr. Walker should not have used the "30 pieces of silver" phrase. Again I haven't read the whole tread so maybe other things were said. I also think that he could have graciously admitted that he misspoke and not arque semantics and meaning.
To clarify I know you didn't call Amy names but you have intensified your personal attacks on Obama. I'm fine with the policy attacks but we discussed this before. You said you didn't despise him but at times due to your recent posts that doesn't seem to be the case.
The worship line? Oh well, I'll will still enjoy talking to you but guess I understand you a bit better.
Mark, here is apportion of just one of Obama's speeches about his mother and her insurance from2008
"I remember in the last month of her life, she wasn't thinking about how to get well, she wasn't thinking about coming to terms with her own mortality, she was thinking about whether or not insurance was going to cover the medical bills and whether our family would be bankrupt as a consequence," Obama said in September 2007.
"She was in her hospital room looking at insurance forms because the insurance company said that maybe she had a pre-existing condition and maybe they wouldn't have to reimburse her for her medical bills," Obama added in January 2008.
"The insurance companies were saying, 'Maybe there's a pre-existing condition and we don't have to pay your medical bills,' " Obama said in a debate with Republican opponent Sen. John McCain in October 2008.
The block quote is in the wrong spot- sorry, I don't know why, and I don't know how to fix it.
Interesting interaction
Looks like bias with prejudice to me.
no jo
Now you are defending the reputation of health insurance companies. Keep it up. Those of us in the real world know plenty of instances where people have been screwed over by these insurers. Nice to know, you are, as always, on the side of the devil.
What's in a Name
I was actually pretty proud of finding the most succint, bullet point explanation of what's in the grand bargain out there, and no jo totally dissed my work. It wasn't even from a liberal website.
I would like to hear what spending cut or loophole Republicans specifically reject. It's sounding like they are just objecting to dealing with President Obama. But they were the ones who said he was M.I.A. I don't get it. I think its all political game playing
Amy said -Nice to know, you are, as always, on the side of the devil.
I agree Amy about the cuts and not understanding why Republicans rejected them. As to your statement perhaps No Joe is just a Rolling Stones -"Sympathy for the devil" fan.
Amy, quit going from thread to thread posting the same garbage about the "grand bargain" and how that is in writing from Obama. Your so called "grand bargain" is an article in the Times by a writer named Jay Newton Small, no where does it say Obama or any other democrat agrees with it.
Amy:
Very nice job, very nice indeed. That was a concise list and accurate. The right cannot stand the truth so they just refuse to believe anything that you post regardless of the source. I have had them even trash data that they turn around and then try to use to prove their point.
This is what happens when you have nothing, you have to make something up.
Outstanding job as usual.
US Navy - What was concise and accurate about what Amy posted. It was the opinion of a times reporter, unless the times reporter (Jay Newton Small) is part of the debt ceiling talks this is nothing but her/his fantasy. Amy has been called out several times on this list and has yet to respond. Amy stated Obama had put the figures to mentioned in writing and put them on the table, that is a lie. Get a life and check it out for yourself.
sfcret, sorry but FOX is mum on this because the Republicans in general and Cantor in particular are acting like spoiled kids at a baseball game so I guess you'll have to wait until they say something before you'll believe it.
By the way, what's FOX saying about the Republican proposed cuts? Something good I bet.
Larry, go an read the damn article yourself and then you will know why no one except Amy and few left wingers are talking about it. What part of the writers opinion of what a bargain MIGHT look like. Since when is a Times writer involved in the debt limit talks. Prove to me that Obama actually signed a paper with those figures as Amy claims. I haven't even heard anything like this on MSNBC. I bet you never even read the article for yourself. Even Amy won't come on and defend her statement that she attributed to Obama.
Listen to these people; they just go on and on as if they are the only people in the world. It is not only disgusting, it is downright offensive. There are those stubbornly pushing and aggressively supporting the Republicans’ complete irresponsibility. Hopefully their unchecked greed and arrogantly belligerent pursuit of their own interests has finally taken them too far ,,, to the point of now being clearly recognized and then totally alienating the public. Bush-Cheney proved beyond any doubt that the “trickle down” theory is a total fraud that only solicits political support and makes the wealthy wealthier. When the Republicans keep advocating that policy as being “job creating” they are literally lying.
The American people need to fire the Republican Party as that is the only way they will ever get the message. They constantly say “The American people want” this or that, to justify their actions and that is total “hogwash”. The only people they represent are Special Interests and the influential, powerful and extremely wealthy few, those who strongly support them and who literally “pull their strings”. They make it obvious they won’t ever change on their own and that then leaves it to the American people to get their attention by firing them ... they leave no other choice and the voters need to tell them that!
Amen Rgiles -
You are right on and the sooner the people of our Country realize that these REPUG/TPOTTY people are nothing but liars who are only interested in the welfare of their rich friends, the better off we'll be. We can never move this Country forward as long as these selfish fools have any power.
Vote them all out.
Great post, Cal Tom. It kind of sums up the whole liberal way of thinking: the millions of people who lean center-right (over half the country) are all either stupid hicks who don't know what's good for them, or rich, greedy, "selfish fools." And if they would just get out of the way, we liberals could make this nation a perfect Utopia where nobody is poor, there's no racism, no guns, no God, no rich people, NO COUNTRY MUSIC!
Cal Tom, all the "rich friends" I have earned every penny they got and deserved it for their hard work. If "moving this country forward" means letting people like you stick it to people like them, me and millions of others will continue to vote Republican.
Great point California Tom. Your liberal state is helping move this country forward with all the jobs it is creating with radical left wing policies while Texas (a state that accounts for about half the jobs being created in this country right now) is really holding this country back.
Speaking of greedy, Republicans are trying to make it so people keep more of their own money while Democrats are trying to take money from people at the point of the gun so that they can redistribute it to to others in an attempt to buy votes. Yeah Republicans are the greedy ones, Democrats hold their hands out like petulant childing crying for more, while demanding that somebody else pay for it. Yeah Republicans are the greedy ones.
Reposted from #1.0 Above – Courtesy the Collapsing Cowards that visit this board.
And the Debt Saga continues and President Obama made it abundantly clear for the last time yesterday that he is putting everything on the Discussion Table and the hell with his political career. He is not concerned about his political life but is 100% committed to this country. Talk about leadership.
In yesterday’s meeting Cantor acted like a little kid, interrupted the President spouting talking points and NOT ONE idea. Kind of like many of the right that visit this board every day so you can pretty well imagine the nature of those talks yesterday.
Then Cantor tried to say that President Obama stormed out of the meeting which was later proved to be false. Hypocrite, who is the one that walks out of meetings. Again, blame somebody else for the very same thing that you are guilty of. The President told all of them in no uncertain words that they were doing exactly what this country finds so repugnant about politics. He told them to go get their acts together and start finding solutions to the problem and then adjourned the meeting.
Somebody name one thing that the GOP/TP has compromised on in the DEBT meetings, one thing. President Obama has put entitlements on the table for discussion, reducing the DOD budget, just about everything and the GOP/TP has not offered one compromise of their own. Not one, just like they have not done one thing to move this country forward in the last 2years plus.
Where are the jobs bill that they promised in 2010, where are their plans to improve the economy that they promised in 2010. Again nothing, no jobs bill, no economic stimulus, big cuts to education, and absolutely NO LEADERSHIP.
I told you this is not about the Debt Ceiling. I told you that the GOP/TP was not going to do anything to move this country forward. I told you it is about Power and Greed, It is about Class Warfare. It is about the wholesale destruction of the economy, our credit status and global chaos.
The GOP/TP is a cancer on this country and it is time for it to be surgically removed, period. They serve no value to this country at all and in fact are the disease that is rotting this country from the inside out.
We are in big trouble and the GOP/TP is not going to be able to “cut and Run” on this issue and it will come back to bite them. You think the sacrifice our President is asking us to make now is a big deal, just wait and watch what happens next. The difference is that we will not be able to control any of it once it starts. The Great Depression will look like a picnic compared to what is coming.
Watching Joe Blow this morning and the question was presented what did the GOP/TP do to move this country forward. The answer “The Ryan Budget Bill” you know the one that repeals Medicare and Medicaid, cuts the budgets of 50 or more Social Safety Nets like education, medical research, FEMA, FDA, etc, etc and takes those savings to give record tax cuts to the top 2%. Oh that bill. And it adds almost 6 trillion dollars to the deficit/debt over the next decade that means the Debt Ceiling will have to be increased to implement that bill if it passes. Hypocrites/Liars – all of them.
Come on people time to wake up and connect the dots.
Miller time why was the the "great wealth redistribution" that has taken place over the past 20 years ok? Because it went from the working and middle class to the already wealthiest 2%? I mean your position is so laughable it's pathetic, what's sad is you and your kind really can't see how ridiculous it is.
I see Navy has moved on from cut and paste of ThinkProgress to cut and paste of his one post of the day.
Wow Navy this is really easy and quick. This is a repost in response to the repost of 1.0 from above
So the election 2012 will be whether we want austerity as proposed by the Republicans or austerity as imposed by the IMF.
In case you forgot, here is what the republican party thinks about the American People opinion.
_
Once you people really understand if there is no compromise the only people that will not suffer is the rich. And that will be only for a short time because suffering that everyone else will be going through will turn to anger towards them. Anyone posting here, that does not see the need for a compromise, I hope you have your shed in mountains fully stocked.
Wake up people there needs to be compromise on both sides. Rep Cantor thinking that President Obama is bluffing is a game of chicken that in the end the American People will loose on. Instead bashing each other on this blog, everyone needs to be blasting their Representive and Senators telling them to step up to the plate and do what they know is right for the American People.
I can tell you this, no one knows what will happen if we default. However, anyone naive enough to want to find out does not have the American Peoples interest at heart. Because everyone here knows that if we default the politicians in Washington will continue the blame game while the American People are homeless and jobless. Then the governors will want to call a state of emergency to quell the riots that will start. Oh there is NO national guard to try and keep the peace because they are deployed in Wars we should have never started. But call in the regular military, can't do that because that's against the Constitution. Putting our military in a position to take up arms against the American People is NOT something anyone on this board wants to see happen.
Everyone needs to really think about the impact a failure to get this done will have on each and everyone one of us.
JUST THINK RATIONALY PEOPLE.
Right you are Sarge. But asking people to "think rationally" when defending their 'party favorites' may be a bit too much. Why is our government so dysfunctional? Why do those in our government act like sophmoric, irrational, narrow-minded morons? Because ours is a... "government OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE and FOR THE PEOPLE" -- and we're the people. We sir are THE ENTITLED GENERATION. The next generation will be the I'M HUNGRY MOM GENERATION and the one after that will be the ANYONE GOT A WHITE FLAG GENERATION. The whole concept of 'working together' to 'find solutions' is alien to us. We get much more satisfaction out of being divisive and calling the 'other guy' an idiot. Frankly, it's so obvious- we're ALL IDIOTS. We sit here and take sides while Nero fiddles. We deserve everything we have coming... the riots... defaults... higher interest rates... a Greater Than The Great Depression Depression - all of it. When it happens where will all these elected officials be? Collecting their pensions, enjoying their Secret Service Protection (which they will need) and all the other benefits paid for by - US. Embrace the madness... enjoy the Government of the United States of America... the Most Dysfunctional Show on Earth --- you're paying for it. FedUpOldFarts.com
And if they would just get out of the way, we liberals could make this nation a perfect Utopia where nobody is poor, there's no racism, no guns, no God, no rich people, NO COUNTRY MUSIC!
Damage123 I think you are getting the democrats agenda wrong we understand there is no utopia we are just trying to improve the faltering economy that was left us. Perhaps you are confusing our agenda with this:
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
John Lennon - Imagine
The repubs are only worried about the rich. and yes the repubs are the greedy ones who want to rob the poor and give to the rich... its allmost like knottingham and robin hood
IR...Good Morning,
Excellent observations. John Boehner must be a huge disappointment to many in his party, he is not up to the job and Eric Cantor is not ready for prime time either.
That was my thought as well, Gingerbread-----Eric Cantor's shot at the major leagues and he has shown himself to be a minor leaguer.
SF,
Pretty sure he won't be called 'up',...
Cantor vs. President Obama. A laughfer, Cantor brings no weapons to the fight.Â
The President's having a battle of wits with an unarmed man!
And...
Senator McCaskill said this morning on Morning Joe that Senator McConnell must have lost his mind if he thinks they are going to vote on raising the debt ceiling three times before the 2012 elections.
It was hysterical, just the way she said it.
Imagine McConnell actually expecting President Obama to go for that deal.
The Republicans are absolutely crazy. Certifiable!
Auntie--thank you for a great post! You brought a laugh to my day! And how true. Have a great day!
"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly
and what does the TOTUS bring to the fight a teleprompter and nothing else.
Who had "teleprompter at 18:59" in the pool today?
http://www.vxec.com/2011/07/wall-street-warns-congress-the-economy-post-default-is-a-man-post-suicide/
After all the talking about raising the debt ceiling being avoidable, or the results of failure being inconsequential, reality is beginning to assert itself. The Republicans MUST agree in the end…in fact they ALREADY DID in principle when they passed the Ryan budget. That document may be a miserable failure, their attempt to destroy Medicare destroyed on the rocks of political reality, but Conservatives have already signaled their willingness to raise the ceiling.
Unfortunately they’ve also boxed themselves into a corner. One of the worst kept secrets in politics is that the GOP simply cannot function without their radical base of Birthers, Tenthers, http://yalelawandpolicy.org/29-2/worse-than-lochner fantasists who insist government doesn’t have to be paid for, http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/gop-should-stop-kowtowing-grover-norquist/ and especially the crazy John Birch Society “ideals” held by the Koch brothers, major funders of the Tea Party movement and providers of massive funding for the Conservative movement.
So here we have the Republican Party, resembling in its ideals nothing so much as the old Confederacy. They KNOW what they must do—charge forward to a deal on the debt ceiling with Democrats insistent that the social safety net not be destroyed, ALL reasonable economists warning of disaster if they fail, business ALREADY in fear of their failure as evidenced by the falling job numbers, and a base of voters who’ve been convinced it’s a total failure if they don’t get everything of which they dream.
Mr. Boehner, Mr. McConnell, and especially Mr. Cantor—Welcome to Pickett’s charge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickett%27s_Charge No doubt once it’s all done, when their total failure is obvious to everyone how badly the Conservative movement has gone astray their leaders will be as clueless as General Pickett--"I've always thought the Yankees had something to do with it."
This just in- Damage control. Each side is pointing fingers and smearing the other as much as possible prior to the real deadline that is rapidly coming. The President is threatening Social Security and veteran checks, the Republicans are holding tight to tax increases. Keep tuned in.....
Clowns to the left of us, jokers to the right. To paraphrase Eisenhower, the extreme left and extreme right are the gutters. Time to send in the streetcleaners to rid us of this trash. Please, people, do your homework before the next election. We can't afford to keep electing immature brats with questionable loyalties to lead our nation if we expect it to survive.
Excellent FLBKERCHICK. FINALLY - someone see's the light which is right down the middle. There are no good guys here... none. Nothing but Dark Side. It's the only workplace in America where people get paid to NOT work together, to NOT get things done and to NOT solve problems. Imagine if the people who worked at the firestation near you did their jobs like these guys... you're house catches on fire and your kid is trapped in an upstairs bedroom. Good luck.
and once again we see the effects of making someone President simply because we thought it would be cool. Zero leadership skills. IF we do not default today, we will do it tomorrow. Only this egotistical puppet President is more worried about his party than our Nation
Maybe that is why he stormed our yesterday like a spoiled five-year-old. After all, Wednesday is party nigh at the White House under this administration.
Coming from someone who watched his party spend like drunken teenagers, starting two wars and giving hugh tax breaks to the richest. At that time they did not seem at all worried about our nation as they started new wars and continued to raise the debt ceiling.
We did not elect President Obama because he was cool, we elected him because he was smart. We tried dumb and look where that got us.
Yet in two years without hardly any assistance at all from the Republicans, everything is supposed to have been turned around and the wars should have been paid for and the Democrats should not have to raise the debt ceiling.
I did not want either war, why should money come out of my social security to pay for it? After all the billions the Republicans spent is America safer? What have we gotten from Afghanistan other than to be able to bribe our enemy to use their roads. OBL had not even been there for years. We did get dead and wounded soldiers. We paid mercenaries that killed innocent women and children.
The only difference I could see between both the wars and Viet Nam was the enemy had a different name. All were drummed up with national fervor. Throw on your hat and spurs cause real Americans want to kill somebody.
Now that the bill has come Republicans are like what war spending? We caused a debt with our tax cuts? Cut social services, education and social security that will teach them Democrats to run up the debt? And please do not pick on our financial base I mean those poor poor rich people.
Note this quote: “And he said to me, ‘Eric, don't call my bluff.’ He said, ‘I'm going to the American people with this.’”
Right now this is a he said, he said gossip fest. However, when the president 'goes public' later this week it will likely prove that Mr Cantor's account is more accurate. We've already seen a history of Mr Obama not taking disagreements fondly ("John... John... I won.") and the report of him supposedly walking out of the meeting rings true. Mr Obama has shown himself to be petulant, and now that he could be forced to follow the law and cut spending on his favored programs he seems to be getting stroppy. A wiser man would take the deal he could get and work later for the proposals he still wants.
You are correct, Correction, so it makes absolutely NO sense, for Cantor to be sticking to the "no tax loop hole closing. Cantor and the fanatic right wing have proven they do not care about the debt; they care about starving entitlements and defeating Obama. More and more of us Americans are waking up to the fact that these guys are not rational and they are really, really bad, for the country. Obama has put way more on the table than his party wanted him to, and still no bend at all by the right wing taliban.
Obama:
Egomaniac, petulant child.
"Steven B" - So, what does that make Eric Cantor???
Eric Cantor. PUNK!
Cantor:
Egomaniac, petulant, arrogant, ignorant, suffering from delusions of adequacy, spoiled rotten little brat
While those we elect fight over nothing, the United States goes further into debt as shown here:
http://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2011/07/washingtons-books-for-june-2011-heading.html
In the last 9 months alone, the United States has added nearly $1 trillion or 7 percent to its debt.
Kind of seems like Nero fiddling while Rome burned, doesn't it?
Shhhhhh, someone might be listening. Keep it down so that I can establish my NWO. It'll all work out soon, trust me.
Thanks- George S.
If you mean, the republicans should have been some what flexible up front and we could have already had a deal months ago, you are correct.
You'll forgive Joe, he's obsessed with Soros. But he just can't seem to break his Koch addiction.
Yeah, except instead of one guy with a violin, this time we have a full orchestra of do-nothings.
mistake in this article: cantor is house majority leader, not minority leader
After the next election, Cantor will be looking for a new job, as will many other Republicans
Given the current trends, we'll all be looking for jobs (and a currency of some value) soon.
The biggest mistake is in referring to Cantor as ANY KIND of leader.
Any wonder why Christie's ratings are under water! Any time he wants to masquerade as mainstream, someone should point out his support of Steve "Bananas" King!!
Eric Cantor has set his sights on being Speaker of the House since the election. Is John Boehner man enough to tell little Eric to shut up or he will be put in time out. If Eric acts like a spoiled two year old then treat him like a two year old.. As far as Eric interrupting the President three times that just proves how ignorant he really is.
A point that has been sorely missed throughout this whole "he said, she said" discussion. What is important to remember here is the context and setting. Everyone at the meeting was a guest in the Presidents house. The meeting was called by and chaired by the President. Given that information as a background, how is it that Eric Cantor can even begin to claim that the President walked out of a meeting that the President called and the President chaired? What, does Eric Cantor decide when a meeting called and chaired by the President is over? Every meeting I have attended is over when the chair closes it, even if they just simply stand up and say "meetings over". A more likely scenario is that the President would not let Eric Cantor just continue to interrupt him, as this batch of Republicans are so inclined to do, as he was making his wrap up comments.
I know that those on the right, for the most part, don't think that respect for the Office of the President, and the President in particular depends upon whether the occupant is a Republican or Democrat. This country elects a President who is charged with representing every American regardless of political affiliation. Somewhere after January 20, 2009 the Republican Party made a conscious decision to publicly disrespect this President as one of their tools to discredit him in the eyes of the world.
Eric Cantor is just the latest in a long line of Republicans, to include Speaker Boehner, Senator McConnell, Rep. Joe "You Lie" Wilson, Rep. and BP apologist Joe Barton, and the list goes on to take this stance when they have been called out and exposed for the political sabotage they are inflicting upon this country.
Here's what I don't get---the President stated on the record before the meeting that it short-term fixes to the debt-ceiling are not acceptable and would be vetoed. Yet Cantor feels it is OK to interrupt the President 3 times to demand short-term fixes. When the President has had enough and wraps up the meeting, the story becomes "the President walks out." Why isn't the story "Cantor inexcusably rude to the President"?
Cantor wants the debt to default, he stand to make a lot of money on the default. There is a method to his madness. They all, GOP, talk out both sides of their mouths. VOTE DEMOCRAT!
agree
Bunch of Drama Queens on both sides while taxpayers suffer and the world questions our credit worthyness........
You're right about that!!!
Cantor reminds me of the spoiled rich kid in school that your just waiting for someone to punch his lights out, the GOP screwed this country up under Bush so bad and take no responsibility for that, I didn't hear any of you harpies screaming about the deficit or raising the debt ceiling back then, nope nary a word, Mitchy boy said it last year plain and clear the GOP'S number one goal is to make Obama a one term Prez, the country be dammed, they threw a fit about the debt ceiling, the sky's falling, and so Obama puts 4 trillion on the table in cuts and 1 trillion in taxes on the wealthy and then their like, "oh, um, were just kidding, how about 2 trillion in cuts", how they get morons to vote for them, the majority of them in the South and Middle of the Country is beyond me, they vote against their own interests, unless all you trolls on here are millionaires? Anyone? They ran in 2010 and said it was about JOBS JOBS JOBS, let's see what have they passed since they got back into Congress, defunding planned parenthood, abortion bills, 480 BILLION for the DOD, that's not money for raises for our military men and women, nor is it benefits for them or to beef up the VA, nope that's 480 BILLION for the likes of Blackwater (or whatever their name is this week) Halliburton, and the other outsourced WAR machines, oh and throw in a couple of outdated jets, they just passed that bill last week, I didn't hear one of you trolls on here screaming that we can't afford that, nope, we can only afford to cut Grandma's Medicare and Social Security (which she paid into her entire life), to feign your outrage now about something that has been going on for the last several decades shows exactly how blatantly false your argument is. But you keep on chirping and believin in that trickle down crap that St. Ronnie sold you on, and that standard line about "you can't raise taxes on the job creators", whose tax rates are based on the 1960's and have their money in off shore bank accounts so they don't have to pay taxes on it and send the jobs overseas, those are the people your helping, why, well my only conclusion is your stupid!
Amen
The bottom line for this exercise in bad politics is that republicans have demonstrated their inability to safely wield power. Can you imagine the decisions they'd make if they had the White House?? Scary, right? It's time for the party of "NO" to become the party that's for go - go somewhere else before we all go together.
What, am I running the govt. now?? If so I want to at least get paid for it.
Have the President request that GAO do a estimate of the costs involved in this three month drama. Added to the deficit of course.
Eric Cantor is no Eddie Cantor. Say, what's the difference between Eric Cantor and Eddie Cantor? One was revered by his country.
and the other was raised by Snidely Whiplash.
Are you listening America? In Mitch McConnell's alternate reality, Republicans don't already own the bad economy. The housing, job, and stock market didn't collapse on their watch. The tax cuts and unfunded wars didn't create record deficts. How about that for "personal responsiblity"?
Unfreakingbelievable!
Morning Nash!
Like I've said before, these b@stards aren't even bothering to put on the sheep costume anymore...
They're just letting it all hang out...
George Bush, Dick Cheney and the Republican led Congress from 2001-2007 is awaiting trial and that begins January 2013.
12 years, thousands of troops and civilian deaths and Trillions of dollars later is entirely too long.
Nash:
How true. As I have been saying the last several days now, the GOP/TP is trying to "Cut and Run". THe seem to thnk they can just throw their hands up and say ii is not their problem. Well, hello it is their problem and mush as it is ours.
See these guys think leadership is quitting - like Palin. They think they can just say not my problem and walk away leaving everybody else holding the bag. Cantor tried that and the President said NO WAY.
Clearly Sen. McConnell doesn't think they "own" the bad economy----they just own the part of it where people get bailed out when they make mistakes and get to pay the lowest tax rates in 60 years.
I'll give the Senator credit---he doesn't both to pretnd to be a stateman. He made that clear wen he stated his primary goal was to prevent the re-election of President Obama. He has done nothing since to change that perception.
Onedinkydow- he andmthe wife and kids have been on some really swell trips. Travel is good for you.
So, the Obama family is better off.
The rest of the country?
Not so much.
MODERATORS:
Please explain why all those posts were collapsed.
Please restore them, there is nothing vulgar or offensive in any of them.
An explanation is required.
Mark said something about erring on the side of FREE SPEECH. Is this your idea of FREE SPEECH!!
No repercussions for the collapsathon?
Agreed, Ira.
One of the best threads ever at First Read.
I thought Mark Murray was going to put a halt to this.
sniffle sniffle! Come on guys, you have better stuff to cry about than this!
Excuse me?? you blame a Republican President when he has a Democratic congress and a Republican Congress when they have a Democratic President! We need leadership in D.C. that is willing to be responsible, not so concerned with re-election as the present government acts. One of our biggest problems (financially) is the heavy handed bureaurcratic "shadow government" that really runs the country! Who is in charge of them????
Then stop electing Republicans and Democrats.
Sweet, sweet Mary:
For six years under President George W. Bush, we had a Republican Congress and President, thus the tax cuts and unfunded wars.
You must have slept through that.
"You know, it's an argument he has a good chance of winning, and all of a sudden we [Republicans] have co-ownership of a bad economy," McConnell said. "That is a very bad positioning going into an election."
Nashville Fan, what strikes me more is that in explaining his position McConnell appears to put more importance about their future election results than a potential double dip recession and global chaos if we default.
I just hope that the GOP knows, if these talk fails, the Republicans will be blamed. The majority of Americans are not stupid and can really see past all the propaganda. We see who is holding this up and why. President Obama will have another term and these tea party fools will be out on their buttts, along with alot of the old school GOP because if they can't control these tea party freshmen, they can't control anything.
While I am not defending the GOP in way shape or form, I would like to hear from any of you who have posted disparaging remarks against the GOP to tell me your thoughts as to why there was not raise to the debt ceiling with a Democrat in the White House and with a majority of democrats in the house before the 2010 election turnaround. Wouldn't that have been the best times to have taken care of business? Why did the Democrats wait until the last minute to try to resolve this issue? Or did I simply miss a vote against raising the debt ceiling at that time?
I ask this because I seriously would like to hear from any supporters of the Democratic Party. What are your thoughts? Please provide this independant voter a reason to vote for the democrats.
Wow...Talk about MSNBC and Their TERROR NONSENSE........Darkest Before The Deal?
No It Is Darkest When You Can No Longer Spend a Dollar Because It Is WORTHLESS!
America..... Save The Dollar and Our Retirements!
Vote For DR RON PAUL And Let US Pass DR RAND PAUL'S Balanced Budget Amendment For Washington DC Just Like We Have At Home!!!