I think we can all agree that what grows the economy is people spending money. The more consumption the more demand, the more demand the more jobs (simply if business is booming you need more workers).

The problem was created by the Centralized Government in collusion with Central Banking. A Centralized Government tends to grow itself rather than shrink. (i.e. you might not allow a local politician like a city councilman give himself a raise because there's a better expectation you'll show up at a council meeting to protest that raise, whereas in Washington, there's really no one watching how Washington grows. Even worse, the people that do show up are lobbyist, with a special agendas to get things none of us would likely approve if we sat in on a meeting.) The system is currently running in a methodology to grow, grow, grow. It does that by continuing to Centralize power. It does that by wooing Corporate lobby on the right, and socialist programs on the left all to gain more and more control.

For the decades that it has that control, it has used CREDIT to fund what it couldn't afford. In collusion the Centralized Banking it started printing money that didn't exist, it bailed out banks that should have just failed (and allowed the people running them that should have been jailed for stealing much of the wealth of Americans with "Derivatives", while hedging their bets with Credit Default Swaps.) It has created a house of cards that made people dependant on its continued existence, when Constitutionally the power should all lie with the States unless the States pass a constitutional amendment GRANTING it power.

The idea of cutting spending is twofold.

First, to go to extreme, if you hypothetically eradicated the entire Federal Government and left only the Justice Department and Military there would be VERY little in taxes for ANYONE to pay (rich or poor). All that extra money then is in the pockets of all consumers. Think of everyone having an extra 250-2000+ per month in their paycheck, they are going to spend that money consuming.

Consumption > demand > jobs.

Second since there's no money hungry programs in this hypothetical there no need for the government to be operating on CREDIT. Confidence throughout the world would increase in the dollar and we wouldn't being paying interest on Trillions of dollars of borrowed money. That confidence would help not only to motivate American's to start spending, but Foreigner's as well.

Now no one is advocating the wholesale end of all Federal Government programs cold turkey. But many believe that we can phase out these bloated bureaucratic programs to either private enterprise or at minimum the States can pick up these services.

What doesn't grow the economy or create jobs is: growing government.

Based on belligerent statements like the above I would doubt such a person would have an open enough mind to look for, or even agree with any counter evidence, but the real truth (if they went looking for it) is that both parties are completely culpable to the creation of these problems.

Unfortunately the tone of the above poster sounds like he gets his information from one side of that same coin and likely would NEVER consider that information is skewed let alone propaganda.

As I said below:

Both want the same thing Centralized Federal power so they can rule from Washington and dictate what all the little serfs will do. It's SO tiring listening to these sides go round and round with the same 30 second sound bites (handed to them from Ministries of Propaganda) forming their arguments about the details that don't matter to that big picture.

The Federal Government has no mandate to anything really but provide for the common defense, and be the final say on matters of Judicial interpretation. Everything else should be the States purview. But you people in both parties with your great intentions to mold the world in your own image handed over all the power to a Federal government who now teach and indoctrinate you into the Slavery of Centralized Government.

TIME TO WAKE UP.

Do you really believe these guys know what will improve the economy, on either side? I have more faith in their ability to destroy the economy and improve their individual self-interests than improve national conditions. Whatever they do will have NO IMPACT on jobs.

Continuing to give tax breaks to 2% of the country--taxpayer funded tax breaks--is the same as the BAILOUTS we were forced to give criminal banks that destroyed the economy. And the average working person (and unemployed person) is taking the hit in order to finance tax cuts that haven't produced a single damn job.

And if jobs do come, wait and see, they'll be cheap labor jobs once reserved for illegal immigrants.

Don't be a fool. Take Bernie Sanders poll at http://1.usa.gov/4yeZKn

Where's the mention of any substantial cuts in defense and foreign aid? I watch in amazement as the GOP hacks away at domestic issues but never takes a serious look at the 791 bases on foreign soil or the fact that we spend as much as the rest of the world combined on defense.

Why raise the debt limit? Obama & Congress will just spend more. It's like giving liquor to a drunk and saying sip it.

Where's the mention of any substantial cuts in defense and foreign aid? I watch in amazement as the GOP hacks away at domestic issues but never takes a serious look at the 791 bases on foreign soil or the fact that we spend as much as the rest of the world combined on defense.

Agreed. Pull um all I say.

As I said both sides are culpable.

By the way, companies won't create more jobs because Obama and his friends have put more than 5000 new regulations in place. How can anyone figure out what to do? It's designed to put the little guy out of business so only the big guys are around and then he'll nationalize them.

The states are also broke, so shifting the 'bills' to them won't work either. Gee, here's a thought: how about creating jobs? And that doesn't include further cuts to corporate taxes, since that hasn't worked before, and the very definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. More jobs would go a long way toward solving the deficit in itself.

What's wrong with a program to rebuild the infrastructure, considering we're now listed as 23rd in industrialized nations becaise pf our crumbling infrastructure. Government doesn't create jobs? Bulls**t! A project like that would also require materials, as well as the labor needed to rebuild our roads and bridges. Know what happens then? Wow, more people are hired to provide the materials needed. The new paychecks are spent in the economy and that creates even more jobs with the increase of demand for goods and services.

Hopefully this project would not be handled at a state level, since the states didn't do so well with the stimulus, using it to plug budget holes and failing to institute projects that would have done much of the above.

Or, here's another thought: the creeping defense budget over the last decade now consumes over 50% of the US discretionary budget, and that's no small chunk of change. Why not end the wars in the middle east?

Cleaning up the tax code would also help, but based upon the suggestions listed in the article, looks like that's all going to be aimed at the middle class, which ought to have the apparently desired effect of finishing off the few remaining in that seriously depleted group. Can't squeeze much more blood out of them.

omg - the government would actually have to pay people out of the cash flow - seems to me that the debt gets paid first - and then whats left gets doled out to the rest of government, military first, then everything else. Look - its horrible that the government needs to live within its means. Lets see how they do it - whatever does NOT get funded is that which is not needed. And there is the cuts you need to make. After all, social security and Medicare are self-funded by 'contributions' which are just another tax. So nothing will happen - trust me. Maybe they'll have to stop funding the idiotic studies they do which realize that ugly people have less sex . . .

"Get er done", Mr Obama - work the magic that has endeared you to so many.

If people could behave, monitor themselves and their environment, we would not need the big government we have saddled ourselves with. People are simply too greedy, too foolish, too shortsighted to monitor themselves. Left to our own devices we would destroy ourselves. Therefore we have created a big brother to tell us what to do.

Democratic National Committee chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultzstands by what she said.

“We own the economy.

Comanchedriver, that is the problem, they don't want to live within their means, and I'm talking about those in both parties. If you think about it, many people out here are that way, so there is no difference between the parties and those people. This, is why this country is in the state that it is. No one wants to bite the bullet long enough for things to get better overall. And they will be the ones taking the blame if this country falls on it's face.

The solution is simple. Cut the tax rates to 0 and so much money will come pouring in that we will not know how to spend it all. Opps?

The states are also broke, so shifting the 'bills' to them won't work either.

But at the state level "We The People" have a better chance of having a say in where our tax money gets spent. Combine that level of oversight to provide leaner programs with Privatization and you have a win.

But you people in both parties with your great intentions to mold the world in your own image handed over all the power to a Federal government who now teach and indoctrinate you into the Slavery of Centralized Government.

As opposed to the GOP point of view which is to abdicate all responsibility and control to Corporations and CEO's? The almighty Corporation and their slave labor? Government is not your momma, but neither should the Corporation or Wall Street be your momma either.

The constitutional purists like yourself ignore the fact that we don't live in the 18th century anymore, that we exist in a global economy and that the free market doesn't give a crap about Food Safety, Product Safety and actively seeks to squash efforts of consumers to sue when the fre market sells them poisonous food, unsafe toys and workplace conditions. If not Government, then who checks the treachery of the free market?

So may technological advances, so many foreign countries provideing our goods. The purist inyterpretation of the constitution really doesn't match up to the protections that citizens require these days.

The only thing this tells me, is they want to kick the can even further down the road. This is nothing but a short term fix so they can continue their spending spree, and does nothing to get the budget balanced. We have allowed this government to grow so big as to make the people feel intimidated by them. The government continues to grow, along with the cost of their wages and benefits, while the people continue being put out of work, watch their personal money supply dwindle because of increased costs, and watch what few benefits they have being taken away a little at a time. Yep, a great country to represent the democracy we continue to push onto others.

Joe in Albany, did you send your $100.00 check to the Obama re-election campaign, yet? Don't care how much you sent to anyone else or who they are, just wondering if you paid off on the bet you made . . . and lost.

People who are claiming that this is Bush's or Obama's fault or that it is the Democrats or the Republicans fault are not thinking it through or simply don't know much about US history.

This has been building for the last 60+ years under every administration from BOTH parties EQUALLY.
Everyone,certainly since Eisenhower and actually before, has spent more than the last and grown government. JFK changed the way unemployment was calculated to show only newly unemployed rather than total unemployed, they now claim 9% when the real number is 22+%. LBJ set up the scam to raid Social Security funds without a clear paper trail, had that money been left in the SS fund we wouldn't be short today. Clinton changed the way inflation is calculated and so on. All of this was done to boost the GDP while in fact it was shrinking.

My point is that BOTH parties have failed America horribly while pumping taxpayer's money into the pockets of their special interests. Neither party has put America first.
Watch this video about the history;

In 2012 a vote for EITHER a Democrat OR a Republican is a vote against America. A vote to change America into the biggest 3rd world country

"The constitutional purists like yourself ignore the fact that we don't live in the 18th century anymore"

Tim, I'm not a "constitutional purist" by any means, but, one thing I do know is, the constitution was written not just for that period in time, but was written in a way that it is good for the duration of this country, no matter how many years it is.

I have to admit, I will agree with Sandtrich on his point. Fiscally conservative means balancing revenue with spending priorities. And right now our priority should be on domestic initiatives and growth. If we are talking about cutting entitlements, something I am against, we should at least be talking about cutting our huge military budget.

And something that every article seems to miss, is that the start date of our economic turmoil can be nearly pinned to 5 years after Clinton and the Republicans signed NAFTA. The amount of time it takes our large companies to move entire factories and train a workforce.

Free Trade is never Free. And that cost is way more than any other I have seen in the last 4 decades.

So may technological advances, so many foreign countries provideing our goods. The purist inyterpretation of the constitution really doesn't match up to the protections that citizens require these days.

I would disagree.

I agree that rampant Corporatocracy needs to be addressed. But the solution to Corporactocracy (I believe) is changing the concept of the Corporation to remove it’s recognition as an individual entity. If you can tie the responsibility of the actions of a corporation to its owners or shareholders then accountability and fairness would skyrocket.

If a shareholder or CEO could be finanically responsible for the actions of the company they own, things would change.

This or any other solution by people more intelligent than I, makes the Founding document of our country “dated” as you suggest.

The housing mess was originally from Clinton and the mandating of banks loaning money for homes to unqualified people with no money down. Google: Cloward Piven strategy and Obama. They want to collapse the economy and then rebuild it. The people on top (Obama) will not feel the pain.

Borsia, I would tend to disagree. Both parties have done exactly what we have asked. I will give an example. You start putting money in my pocket. I will tell you when to stop. If you stop before I say to stop, I will vote you out of office. It is really not that hard to understand how we got here.

Four Points - I wasn't trying to be eloquent in my post above. The dialogue from the right has become so insane that reality and sanity are the baby which has been thrown out with the bath-water. What is really missing from the right is a sane voice of reason like the late William F. Buckley. While I may have disagreed politically with many of his opinions and positions, there was a civility once that no longer exists. I blame that on both sides however my opinion is Newt Gingrich ushered in a level of caustic discourse during the Clinton era which has just gotten worse. If I'm not mistaken it was the GOP who went for the gutter during that time - hell they impeached a sitting President for lying about oral sex and an affair when his accuser was doing the exact same thing. My point was, the Republicans in Congress to a person rejected the Clinton tax increases which brought about the best economy our nation has ever seen. That same party unanimously shoved an irresponsible tax cut through reconciliation while Bush (and I remember this vividly) said in a televised speech afterwards, "the surplus is the peoples" the word there is SURPLUS. What he and his band of merrymen didn't say is that the bill for all of the part would be the peoples too.

Fourpoints, imagine for a minute, hypothetically, you owned business which you purchased from the previous set of owners who drove it into bankruptcy and you turned it around and built it into a successful, thriving, enterprise. Now imagine turning over to a management consultant who brought in management staff along with plans for the next 8 years. Stay with me. Now after 7 years cracks start to appear and before you know it you've lost everything and then some. I mean you're bankrupt.

My question to you: would you re-hire that same management consultant, Private Equity team, etc?

P.S. I read your response and I actually agree with you - both sides suck. It's just IMHO, one side if far worse.

Yes, blaming human nature is always a great way to justify Big Government. Except there is one problem, the Big Government power is in the hands of humans as well. What makes them more qualified to make decisions for me? A fancy degree. Plenty of folks with fancy degrees have been wrong before. How about their good virtues? Ha, what a joke. When will people realize that government control doesn't fix society's problems?

The Soviet Union had a pretty powerful big brother...how did that work out for them?

ir12, agreed, and yes, that is nothing more than a nod for the government to continue growing.

MAW-1297690

By the way, companies won't create more jobs because

because there is no demand. Econ 101... demand... consumption... consumer confidence. Businesses don't expand for any other reason... if they have money but no demand, they don't expand or hire. If the demand is there, they will expand in spite of lack of money or loans or taxes.

People need to get off the stupid "fear of expanding" BS. It just doesn't work that way.

It was un-patriotic for the Bush Administration to lower taxes for the wealthy and go to war at the same time. It weakened our government. He made war too easy because it was done on credit and fought by professional soldiers and contractors. If war was justified than the american people should have been willing to sacrifice some of their luxries to pay for it.

One cannot get an accurate estimate of the costs of the Irac War and the future costs of this war. Of course their are other reasons for the excessive debt of this country but the wars are rarely mentioned as a primary reason.

If we continue to pursue this policy of war, we will fall like every other great nation in history. We can only remain great ( super standard of living) for a long time only if we spend our money on things that will make us strong internally. We must choose policy, which will serve the best interest of a majority of the citizens and at the same time respect human rights. This is difficult but not impossible.

Really Maw. 5000 new laws huh? Obama's hand must be real tired because I sure wouldn't want to sign 5000 laws. It real funny because first you insinuate that he does nothing and then its hes signed tons of laws. So what is it? First off the president doesn't pass laws like that. Second not much has changed in the line of laws concerning the starting of a business, most of that is run by your state laws not federal laws, unless your dealing with EPA or other environmental aspects it has virtually nothing to do with federal.

LMarcT. LMarcT. LMarcT. I desperately want to buy an new car. Unfortunately I do not have the money to buy it because my good manufacturing job has gone to China. My wife's job at a banks call center went to India. We currently exist on jobs that pay slightly more than minimum wage. We would like to have children that would one day grow up to help pay for our Social Security, but that does not look like it is going to be possible as I do not know where they will sleep or what they would eat. I have a great deal of demand, the problem seems to be the ability to pay for it.

Ethics - 'The Soviet Union had a pretty powerful big brother...' it would really only be fair to compare our big brother to Russia in terms of our bloated defense budget. In terms of social programs for the middle class and poor - Medicare, Medicaid, SS, WIC, etc - relative to GDP, we would be somewhere below S. Korea and far below Britian, Germany, Japan, and China ----so how is big brother working out for them?

As opposed to the GOP point of view which is to abdicate all responsibility and control to Corporations and CEO's? The almighty Corporation and their slave labor? Government is not your momma, but neither should the Corporation or Wall Street be your momma either.

My response to this is better made by a Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences recipient.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=76frHHpoNFs&feature=related

I would like to thank the left leaning crowd today for actually putting up good solid talking points, and not political regurgitated jargon. It is refreshing to actually agree with some of the points, but mostly understand and accept where they are coming from. It seems that today the discourse is actually thoughtful and well worth reading every post.

HELLO WASHINGTON!!!!! You can't spend more than you take in!!! Even the simplest minds can fiqure this out. EARTH TO WASHINGTON..... Stop spending that which you don't have and can't afford!!!

MAW-1297690

By the way, companies won't create more jobs because Obama and his friends have put more than 5000 new regulations in place.

Proof please. And, please add context by citing what any other president and "his friends" have put in place.

You are welcome to express an opinion but if you do it with hard figures you must be prepared to back them up with a reputable source. Hint: Glenn Beck is not a reputable source.

Mike B......How's 14T. in debt sound for a fact!!!!!

hypocrisy - yes, I agree, military is bloated (I mean what does Libya have to do with the United States and our security.) The military is the result of a Big Government. The Republicans have consistently and constantly tried to expand governmental power via the military. We spend more than the next 17 top countries combined. And you want Bigger Government?

And just look at any of those countries you mention. Germany is the only country that has a strong economy and they have very strong economic freedoms not to mention they have been the largest beneficiary of the EU. Japan is living in a continuation of the "Lost Decade," and tell me, would you like to work at the wages present in China? Britian is facing unprecedented austerity. To even compare the United State to these countries really misses the mark. The USA is one of the largest, most heterogeneous populations on the planet and you compare our social programs to the smaller homogeneous populations of S. Korea, Britian, German, and Japan. And to trust any numbers out of China is like believing in Santa Claus. How is that 300 mph train coming?

Big Government is not the answer.

Default, or threat of, seems the only way to shame these people back to their desks. Why should they work, they're getting their millions which by the way is 10+ times their salaries and we don't even want to know how that is possible, and they will keep collecting at this rate for at least 2 more years.

Run it like a business. First, collect income. Second, pay the bills. Third, pay the boss if anything is left over after paying bills. In that order. If you're the boss and there's no money left well guess what no pay check!

Deffinition of "Boss": 1) President 2) Congress 3) government workers.

Two things prove "starve the beast" is BS. First, the surplus after Clinton proves government doesn't spend what ever revenue it receives, and second due to cuts and lack of revenue, we are now seeing stress at the state and municipal levels, like going to a four-day school week. You could argue spending priorities, but if you "starve the beast" you won't like the unintended consequences when it reaches you.

Scott-

You make too much sense! How about: Not pay ANY of the bums in Washington until we are in the black. That would wake them up since they only worship MONEY. It is about time for a 3rd party to form. Not a "tea party", but a real party of the people, that will not allow special interest groups to step in their office. The people need to be represented, not taxed! True Patriot, you are full of crap! I guess you want the Feederal Gov. to control your health care, tell you when you can eat and sleep and GIVE you freedom. BS!

My question to you: would you re-hire that same management consultant, Private Equity team, etc?

Definitely not. I think the ideals of free market economics means that anyone that screws you (or anyone else for that matter) at any point no longer gets your business.

I apply this to politics. Both sides have screwed you, I and everyone else in my opinion. I don't want to hire them anymore. I'm looking for a third option.

P.S. on correction to a sentence I wrote above in 1.23

This or any other solution by people more intelligent than I, doesn't make the Founding document of our country “dated” as you suggest.

...just my opinion

Eliminating the deficit and paying down the debt is easy. Restore the tax rates that existed under Clinton, inlcuding taxing the income of hedge fund managers as, you know income. "Right size" the DoD and DHS back to the spending levels that existed under Clinton. Stop letting the GOP kill the US economy with their draconian spending cuts. Eliminate the Federal "Welfare for the Wealthy" programs. Oops, I mean farm subsidies. Eliminate the ridiculous tax breaks given to Gas & Oil companies (you know, those tax breaks being fought by the Gas & Oil Party, or GOP for short). Do these simple things and the US economy might actually see a strong recovery like the rest of the industrialized world is seeing.

Brian - what is civility to you? Claiming that a certain group is out to kill old people and starve children? If its said nicely then its civil? Really? Demagoguing issues will never create a compromise - and why is it that the Dem's ALWAYS resort to calling people names and demagoguing things with straw men and idiotic comments about things that would never happen? Do you really think that any Republican legislator wants to kill old people and starve children? C'mon. Stop the idiocy on both sides - its a good thing that we are at an impasse. All of sudden Obama thinks that we 'need to come to compromise.' Where was that desire in the health care bill - when it was rammed down our throats without a single bit of 'compromise' on a party line vote? Where was his desire to 'save the future generations from the consequences of our spending today' in 2009 and 2010? How come no one ever leads until they are forced to respond? If 'curbing spending for future generations' is such a good then where was Obama and Pelosi before they spent 8 TRILLION in the last 30 months on projects they admit did nothing to increase employment? Everyone is a BS Artist here - D's and R's. A pox on both their houses.

The government collects about $200 Billion per month in revenues.

Interest on the Debt is only about $17 Billion per month. That means there is plenty of money to avoid default on the debt - just cut bank on the huge 30% increase in 'discretionary' spending ($400 Billion per year) that Obama has put in place over the last 2 years.

PS - Social Security and Medicare are NOT a part of 'discretionary' spending'.

"It's probable that none of those things will happen. If they don't, then the ten-year cumulative deficits will total nearly $12 trillion, CBO said."

That means that the National Debt would increase to over $26 Trillion in the next 10 years (probably more like $36 Trillion, since the debt has gone up almost twice as fast as the deficits over the last 30 years (a)).

Are the wild-spenders in Washington crazy? Without drastic cuts in spending, we are spiraling into bankruptcy. It's now or never for an austerity program, but with big spenders controlling the Senate and White House, don't hold your breath.

Our children and grandchildren are doomed to a crushing debt burden for their entire lives.

(a) - The total Deficits for the last 30 years equaled $7.304 Trillion, yet the National Debt for those same 30 years increased by $12.878 Trillion. The National Debt goes up far faster than the amount of the Deficit each year.

Obama’s budget summitt

7 July 2011

Today's White House summit between President Barack Obama and congressional leaders of both parties is part of a stage-managed and cynical charade behind which a bipartisan plan is being worked out to dismantle large parts of basic social programs such as Medicare and Medicaid.

Without any democratic debate and over the heads of the American people—who overwhelmingly oppose the cuts—the social programs of the 20th century are being gutted. Reforms going as far back as the Progressive Era—such as the expansion of public education—and including those of the New Deal and Great Society of the 1930s and 1960s are being reversed.

The implications for the American people, already suffering under near-depression levels of unemployment and relentless attacks on wages and benefits, are catastrophic....

...The real causes of the debt crisis are not social programs or a failure of the American people to “live within their means.” The major causes are, first, the long-term decline of American capitalism, expressed most powerfully in the decimation of its industrial base and the stagnation and decline in the living standards of the general population; second, the reorganization of the economy in the interests of finance capital and the consequent growth of social inequality, speculation and economic parasitism; and third, a staggering reduction in taxes for the corporations and the wealthy over the past 30 years....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jul2011/pers-j07.shtml

Does anyone else stand amazed when one of our senators or representatives (of either party) that has been in office more than a year pretend they have nothing to do with this economic mess? They stand there pompously talking about cleaning up this mess and think everyone is too stupid to know that they have voted over and over for programs (and wars) that we did not need or want. Some have been in
Washington for 20, 30 plus years and pretend this problem only came about in the last 2 1/2 years.

Congress has to approve every penny that is spent. They are the ones to blame. They all have slipped in their earmarks costing billions of dollars - many of them nothing more than a gift to a political contributor. What's a few billion dollars here and there?(they think) Don't they know it all adds up to soon become trillions? So much has been wasted on studies that mean nothing, bridges to nowhere, unfunded wars we should have not been in, etc. Now instead of them getting serious they want to keep the huge tax breaks to the wealthy and penalize Medicare. Suddenly hard working teachers and union members have become scapegoats for the mess these politicians have created. How is any of this fair? You may think this is okay - just wait, soon your occupation may be the next group of people who will be blamed for it all.

Since we are in this mess caused by them we will all have to sacrifice to get it all back in some kind of control. The only fair thing is for everyone, rich and poor, young and old to pay higher taxes. The poor, of course would pay less, but it should be worth something to all of to pay out of our pocketbooks to be fortunate to live in the USA. Many people around the world would love to live here, too many come illegally but that's another story for another time. Unfortunately, we did vote these losers into office and in many cases have let them stay far too long. So now we will have to pay. Maybe now we will be more careful about who we vote for.

I saw George W Bush on the Oprah Show a few months ago while he was hyping his most recent book and she asked him if he 'saw the financial problems' coming. He said he absolutely did not see any of it coming. He must have really been hidden in a bubble to not know. Everyone else has seen it coming since 9/11. In my state the economy never did come fully back. I know it goes back further than 9/11 but especially since then it's been on a fast track to the bottom.

A lively discussion for sure.

Those on the left who believe that instituting a pile of new taxes - do you think in today's economy (not in the Clinton era when things were going well and he had a Republican Congress for 6 years to control spending) that these new taxes would have no push back, and all this money would simply be transferred from individuals and corporations to the treasury?

We live in different times. We live with today's tax rates. If these rates change, behavior will change.

The Kennedy Luxury Tax back around 2000 proved this - the CBO estimates on this tax were awesome, but instead of a big boon to the treasury, this new tax destroyed the American yacht builders, and threw thousands out of work.

I'm not saying we couldn't alter the tax landscape, but my preference would be to be very careful during this jobless recovery, or we could end up in a real mess.

Obama talks about triggers - but the triggers are what he wants - if the government overspends, as it always does, then they get to raise taxes! This is the liberal nirvana!

Over 50 years our two parties have combined to stack up $14 trillion in debt, while collecting trillions from us to spend. Their education system is broken, their social security system is rife with fraud and abuse and criminals, their energy system has no plan or purpose, and they keep increasing these budgets?

This is complete insanity. We need a 3rd party - a taxpayers party - a frugal, responsible, (no killing of children or old people) group of grown ups that are not politicians. How to make this happen, I have no idea, but the current system is not fixable.

You doubt me? They have a $12 trillion problem (conservatively) over the next 10 years, and they are wringing their hands over $4 trillion. Seriously?

And you rich haters - you get maybe $70-100 billion annually if you do everything you want to change the tax code and stick it to them evil rich people - this equates to $700b - $1 trillion over 10 years if they make no changes to their behavior - 8% of your problem is solved - what is your idea for the other 92%?

not crazy, I would say it is reality, hello, mcfly?

It could be said that what most people are arguing back and forth about is the SAME Party - The Republicrats.

Both want the same thing Centralized Federal power so they can rule from Washington and dictate what all the little serfs will do. It's SO tiring listening to these sides go round and round with the same 30 second sound bites (handed to them from Ministries of Propaganda) forming their arguments about the details that don't matter to that big picture.

The Federal Government has no mandate to anything really but provide for the common defense, and be the final say on matters of Judicial interpretation. Everything else should be the States purview. But you people in both parties with your great intentions to mold the world in your own image handed over all the power to a Federal government who now teach and indoctrinate you into the Slavery of Centralized Government.

TIME TO WAKE UP.

The following is my proposal to begin to correct our sagging economy. American politician­s might want take a breath and venture outside the hallowed halls of DC every so often, to clear the cobwebs from their minds. Just maybe, they'd notice a potential gold mine found in one Indian temple and might even want to ask India for a loan.

Would this be akin to the phrase, 'borrowing from Peter (in this case, Lakshmi, the Goddess of wealth & posterity) to pay Paul?' That way, the Obama Administra­tion's idea to satisfy foreign debt first, and potentially 'borrow­' from India, via Lakshmi, will provide a temporar­y safety net to the domestic debt of Medicare and Social Security.

Some may think this is a bad idea, but it is certainly one to consider, in light of the politician­s’ failure to come up with a resolution that is both reasonable and equitable. I believe they should seriously take a look at one of our country’s major assets—sta­rting with the 147.3 million ounces of gold bullion sitting at Fort Knox. This would be an excellent source of collateral as well. What other assets does the US have to use as collateral to those holding US debt?

We need to clean up our fiscal act, but Washington DC has had us thinking in the 'poverty mode' for a long time. I don’t want to hear that we cannot make full use of this precious asset to offset our debt. Americans do it every day—we either sell our assets or use those assets as collateral to offset debt, during daunting and challengin­g times.

Noelle: I believe all that gold in Fort Knox is ALREADY collateral for the paper money they are printing. It's not just sitting there doing nothing. It is the gold that backs that dollar bill in your pocket!!

Democratic National Committee chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultzstands by what she said.

“We own the economy.

Noelle: I believe all that gold in Fort Knox is ALREADY collateral for the paper money they are printing. It's not just sitting there doing nothing. It is the gold that backs that dollar bill in your pocket!!

That is actually totally incorrect. The total gold in Fort Knox is estimated at 147.2 million oz.

Simple math bears this out. If the gold was worth 1500 per oz, that is 220 Billion in gold. The US Treasury has an estimated 2.58 Trillion in circulation as of 2008.

This is why Ron Paul wants to end the Fed, and return to a gold standard. The US Dollar is based on what our Centralized Government in collusion with Centralized banking says it is.

Sources:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository

www.visualeconomics.com/the-value-of-united-states-currency-in-circulation/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/fiat-money-inflation-federal-reserve-2/

Didi...

The only thing backing the US dollar and ALL of our debt is "the full failth and credit of the United States of America. In other words both are UNSECURED.

The US went of the Gold Standard in 1933 and in 1971 President Nixon unilaterally cancelled the direct convertibility of the United States dollar to gold.

Today, almost every country, including the United States, is on a system of fiat money, which is defined as "money that is intrinsically useless; is used only as a medium of exchange". The value of money is set by the supply and demand for money and the supply and demand for other goods and services in the economy.

Obama is like my son with regards to raising the debt ceiling.

My son recently maxed out his visa card and is having trouble making the payments (do you know how much penalties they charge if you are late!!!)

Anyway without telling us he went and got another credit card to make the payments on his visa card! Isn't that exactly what Obama want to do?

Well I loaned him the money to pay off his visa card and made him promise not to spend more than he earns in the future. Does this make me like China? lol

Until Obama and the spend and smear democrats learn to cut spending, raising the debt ceiling only prolongs the inevitable!

Ron Paul... Seriously? You're suggesting Mr. Magoo design the vision test at the DMV?

.

Bill, You have no idea about the debt ceiling do you?

Bill, That spending you referred to was directly due to the almost Depression incurred and left from 8 years of Bush and Republicans. You do remember McCain wanting to postpone the last Presidential election because a certain Republican President had destroyed our economy. You do remember that? You might not like the spending which happened under Obama (75% of that spending was tax cuts Bill!) but please correct any amnesia - the President prior to the last abortion, a Democrat, left surpluses as far as the eye could see.

Is your son GW Bush?

P.S. Why did you change your first name? Oh, tell Bab's I said hello and have a good time in Kennebunkport this summer!

He and his gold standard solution are a sham.

Sorry please allow me to correct myself. "Commodity" standard.

From here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul

Paul has voiced concern over the dominance of the current banking system and called for the return to a commodity-backed currency through a gradual reintroduction of hard currency, including both gold and silver. A commodity standard binds currency issue to the value of that commodity rather than fiat, making the value of the currency as stable as the commodity.

He argues that hard money, such as backed by gold or silver, would prevent inflation, but adds, "I wouldn't exactly go back on the gold standard but I would legalize the constitution where gold and silver should and could be legal tender, which would restrain the Federal Government from spending and then turning that over to the Federal Reserve and letting the Federal Reserve print the money.

The principal is sound, not a sham. "Sham" is printing Fiat Money.

Ron Paul is the only politician that predicted this whole mess exactly. Go to youtube.com, Type 'Ron Paul Predictions 2002', Pick any of the videos that pop up, Go ahead and listen to what he said back then. He was/is the only one correct about all of this.

Ron Paul is our only chance out of this mess!

Actually I saw this coming before any of you heard of Ron Paul. So what?

Where's the you tube evidence of that like I showed? Or are you just making things up to try to pretend your knowlegble and intelligent to lord youself over others?

pied piper?

What is a more lemming move than following the status quo, no wait DEFENDING the status quo, that's occured over the last 3-5 decades and allowing government to grow grow grow?

He'd immediately kill the world economy overnight

Wow, the whole world economy overnight, now who's talking in fairy tales and hyperbole with no links to anything to attempt to prove his case? Talk about Chicken Little!

Show me his plan in detail that equates to calling 10k credit card debt a jar of pennies and we can discuss.

Those with a higher income have already paid more. Maybe we should look at the hand out programs for those that pay zip. Why do the liberals want to discourage people from being responsible for themselves?

Lynn, how are they paying more, if fica has a cap on what is taxed? WTF are you babbling about? And more on paying more, if a group controls 90% of a countries wealth but only pay as if they only own 50% of the wealth, they most definitely need to pay more based on the holdings they have.

Everyone from the GAO on down says it's going to bankrupt the government.

Check out the wiki on "United States Budget" and then check out the graph titled "The Risks of Growing Entitlement Spending".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GAO_Slide.png

I don't think anyone wants to completely cut the social programs, I just think that want to discuss an alternative that phases out what obviously isn't working well. IMO - Beucase it's run by a Centralized Federal Government rather than by the States. Closer the power is to the people the better the program.

Also, here a video on who called all these Financials problems before they occurred:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Gfzgxh3ZQ&feature=relmfu

These finanical problems were seen 6 years ago.

Four Points,

Unfortunately, no one has ever won an argument around here with facts. There's no room for them in these parts. Please take your logic elsewhere.

Party of Spend at it again...

Those with a higher income have already paid more. Maybe we should look at the hand out programs for those that pay zip.

Typical talking point. Its the poor's fault or the middle class. But no one but the rich and GOP politicians really feel that way.

We see all the proposed Budget Cuts in the GOP debt reduction hitting the poor, the elderly and the middle class. And then we dont see ANYTHING that the rich in this country will have sacrifice. Why is that fair when taxes oin the rich are the lowest tey have been in 50 years? Why should corporations be given more tax breaks after they have already been extended? They are sitting on all sorts of cash (trillions) and they aren't hiring it or making capital expenditures...and the GOP feels they should get more?

The Public ain't buying it or the GOP extortion techniques to force more for the rich and Corporate America

Name me one sacrifice the rich are making in the GOP deficit reduction plan. People want fairness. The rich shouldn't get off without being hit. SHARED SACRIFICE.

Great posts, Four Points. You talk good common sense which means the lefty libs can't understand you and therefore attack you. As for me, I think your posts make a lot of sense. Ever thought about running for office?

Great post, Tim. Unfortunately, fact's are something the right-wing nut-job's just don't understand or can't understand. They need to turn to the hate network of Faux News (well not "News" - - the Faux Opinion Channel).

Great posts, Four Points. You talk good common sense which means the lefty libs can't understand you and therefore attack you. As for me, I think your posts make a lot of sense. Ever thought about running for office?

Most kind of you,

I had my eyes opened by the Libertarianism of Ron Paul. You should check him out.

www.amazon.com/Revolution-Manifesto-Ron-Paul/dp/0446537519

The US spends 101 Billion Dollars a year on illegal aliens plus we paid to send 66,000 illegals to college last school year. Source: www.lawandcitizen.org we need to send a president to the white house that has some backbone. we can not afford to send another spineless arthropod to the white house again. Osama you can save the US 401 Billion Dollars a year if you grow a spine and deport deport deport all the 12 million illegal criminals that have invaded our country. Source: www.lawandcitizen.org

Tim, Seattle

Those with a higher income have already paid more. Maybe we should look at the hand out programs for those that pay zip.

Typical talking point. Its the poor's fault or the middle class. But no one but the rich and GOP politicians really feel that way.

We see all the proposed Budget Cuts in the GOP debt reduction hitting the poor, the elderly and the middle class. And then we dont see ANYTHING that the rich in this country will have sacrifice. Why is that fair when taxes oin the rich are the lowest tey have been in 50 years? Why should corporations be given more tax breaks after they have already been extended? They are sitting on all sorts of cash (trillions) and they aren't hiring it or making capital expenditures...and the GOP feels they should get more?

The Public ain't buying it or the GOP extortion techniques to force more for the rich and Corporate America

Name me one sacrifice the rich are making in the GOP deficit reduction plan. People want fairness. The rich shouldn't get off without being hit. SHARED SACRIFICE.

____________________________________________________________________________

What is the tax rate on the 48% of people that pay zero Federal Income taxes? 0 x any number = 0. That means that their tax rate is the lowest EVER (it can't get any lower). I would say one sacrifice from the rich is the FACT that they are paying the majority of the taxes. This is a fact that cannot be denied. Of course the lower 48% want zero program cuts, they don't have to pay for it! They need to have at least some skin in the game.

That means that their tax rate is the lowest EVER (it can't get any lower).

It does get lower than that as not only did they not pay into the system, they are actually getting "refunds" for having kids. So there are a lot of them out there that are actually in negative % paid in.

Cellisis: Unfortunately, that won't happen because all our politicians are in the pockets of big business! As long as we allow lobbyists and big corporations to buy and sell our politicians for a few votes....we'll never have a government that cares about you and I!! Their main goals are (1) get rid of President Obama; (2) get rid of the regulations against all corporations; and (3) stay in office any way they can!! They can't do any of these as long as the big corporations "own" them.

The poor, elderly and disabled, as well as up to almost 50% of Americans pay NO income tax. What exactly is being taken from them? I know your mantra is take from them and give to me but eventually "they" will have nothing left to give. Why don't you give up your computer, internet access, cell phone, and everything else that many would consider a luxury and give that money to the government? Or does it only make sense when it is someone elses money?

If the Bush Tax Cuts are recinded, millionaires will be forced to scrape by on $18,000 per week. I certainly don't want to be responsible for this kind of travesty.

If poor families have to give up just one meal a day, this unfair burden on the top 2% can be avoided.

Have you ever considered that some people are too damn poor to pay federal income taxes and that asking them to pay anything would be taking food out of their mouths. Even the Republican Party understands you can not get blood out of a turnip. That is why the tax code has a low income cut off. You can bet the working poor do not have expensive tax lawyers to help them beat the system. The answer is education, job training, and jobs, jobs, jobs, preferably good paying jobs that can lift these people into the next tax bracket. Do not think for a minute that poverty level income workers are not paying taxes. They pay their payroll taxes and applicable state income or sales taxes just like everyone else.

I live on 8088$ a year, period. Live a month in my world then tell me the rich can't give up something.

This whole "50% of Americans pay no tax" thing has really got to stop. It's nonsensical on its face. Nearly everyone who is earning money pays tax. 2/3 of the people living in my house do not pay federal income tax. Do you know why? Because one of them is 7 years old and doesn't earn an income, and the other is a stay-at-home mom who also doesn't earn an income.

Guess what? I pay taxes, because I am fortunate enough to have a job.

Someone earning $25,000 pays income taxes - and in fact, probably pays more as a percentage of their income in total taxes than the majority of people with assets over $1,000,000 does.

Rest assured, thanks to the Republicans AND Democrats in office today, when this ridiculous debt deal gets done, MY taxes will be going up, but the wealthiest among us will pay less than ever.

I am getting closer and closer to wanting to see all these people's heads on pikes.

Katgirl , My 30 year old blind son works and makes more than that. He refuses to let other people pay for him!

Eventually they will have nothing else to give? Oh come on now, We are talking about billionaires here, stop the nonsense. They have created a world for themselves that the top dogs pay nothing they use workers like pawns in a chess game, they get too old throw them overboard with out a life boat. What makes you guys so heartless.

Katgirl.....good heavens, what job pays $169 a week?

Barb H.

If the government taxed the rich at 100% it would just barely nudge the debt down.

If the government taxed the rich at 100% it would just barely nudge the debt down.

Dave-309982, is that an opinion or do you have some hard figures to back it up?

Mikebravo wrote:

is that an opinion or do you have some hard figures to back it up?

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/histab3.xls

In fact, in tax year 2009 (the last year for which IRS has published statistics), the combined gross income of all Americans earning $500,000 per year or more was about $1.03 trillion ($1,029,256,075,000.00) of which these Americans paid $256.7 billion ($256,699,499,000.00) in federal income taxes.

That left this group of Americans about $773 billion ($772,556,576,000.00) in income that the federal government had not taken away in income taxes.

Also during tax year 2009, according to the Bureau of the Public Debt, the national debt increased by $1.61 trillion ($1,611,544,812,899.90).

If the federal government had increased the income-tax rate on Americans earning more than $500,000 to 100 percent in 2009--and seized the remaining $773 billion in income it had not initially taken away from these Americans--that would have closed the federal deficit for the year to $839 billion ($838,988,236,899.90).

After taxing away 100 percent of the income of those earning $500,000 or more in 2009, the Obama administration would still have needed to increase taxes on Americans earning less than $500,000 by a total of $839 billion--just to balance federal accounts for the year.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/100-percent-tax-those-earning-500k-or-mo

To say that everyone who earns more than $25K would pay Fed income tax is not true, since there're a lot of tax breaks or credits that some family or individuals can take which would result in them eventually paying little to zero Fed tax. Unfortunately, this is a fact that you could check with IRS. That's why we have about half of population paying virtually little or no tax, including those who're not among the poor.

That's why we need tax reform, by eliminating all breaks and deductions or at least capping such deductions, but lowering all income tax rates including those rich, so that majority would have to pay tax as everyone else does, and they pay their fair share. Without those credits or deductions and lowered tax rates, the majority who are currently paying tax (among the half of population who are actually paying tax) will pay about the same amount of tax, while those who are not paying or paying very little will have to pay some or pay more. This is the only fair way for 90% of population to contribute to the tax revenue, and the fair way to reduce the deficits/debts this nation has.

Again, "because the richest folks can't pay a bit more in taxes", how much more are you willing to pay? As for your suggestion, you are not forced to pay your mortgage, car loan or credit card bills. Don 't borrow to buy a house, ride the bus and pay cash. Or is that a bit too much personal responsibility?

In comparison to what needs to be purchased to survive, this is a very naive and fUking ignorant statement.

We live in upstate New York, as residents of New York state we pay the highest taxes in the nation. What do we get for those taxes?, the same thing every other state gets. We get punished for having New York City on our books. We even have different tax forms for the state or the city of NY. The only state in the US that has a surplus is Alaska which also has the lowest tax rate. I look at it this way, our city is in debt, our county is in debt, our state is in debt, the country is in debt and I'm sure that most of the posters on this board have a debt to pay off. The problem is that EVERYONE is spending money that they don't have and until this stops we will stay a part of the problem instead of being part of the solution. The solution?, Quit spending money you don't have!

Some people are spending money they don`t have, some have no money to spend, and some make laws to keep all the money and have the rest of us pay for it all.

What an ironic statement. On the one hand you call them "wall street task masters" and then you (correctly) point out that if you stop paying for (or taking out for that matter) loans from them, and buying their products, they won't have money. Amazing, you actually admitted in your own rant that those companies have YOUR money because YOU took on loans, YOU got a credit card, and YOU buy their products. So you are right, if you paid all of your bills out of income, and purchased locally grown/maufactuered goods and food, you wouldn't be paying those big bad corporations. But you aren't going to do that, none of you who complain so much about corporations are actually willing to stop using them at the end of the day. And that is because they are convienent and provide the products and services you need, so you use them. And that is why they have the money, its not some conspiracy!

You don't have to. You could rent a house, and buy a used car (actually I don't know how you could even qualify for a mortgage if you can't save $20,000 for a car). But because it is your choice that you want to own a home, and have a new car, you go get a loan. No one is putting a gun to your head, and none of what you just posted has anything to do with what kind of loan you should get if you choose to get one. I for instance have a mortgage, I got one on a place I could afford the down payments for, get a good fixed rate on, and that would allow me to live easily within my means.

Damn, that sucks... but according to some people on here, they just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by the proverbial boot strap... Wow, what great citizens we have to assert such things.

exact same thing happening in MI! People need to wake up and stop supporting people who are NOT working for you at all!

You do realize that the democrats in Congress and the White House are rich, too, right? Conservatives are for limited federal government as defined by the US Constitution.

DD22: He didn't actually win....the Supreme Court gave him the win. Of course, being that the majority of the judges are conservative Republicans, you can't expect them to do anything less!!

I always wondered that too, but then you look at some of the nut jobs in the teaparty rallys it figures. Most of the people that are poor and still vote Republican are uninformed and will not listen to reason. I have many in my family that are that way some are actually bigots,and will only vote for a white clean cut guy that looks like a car salesman, although they will not admit it, if you ask them what is good about a candidate they say they like the way he looks, but cannot think of anything the person stands for.

The richest man in the Senate is Sen. John Kerry D-Mass. In fact the millionaire Democrat party members outnumber the Republicans.

For as long as I can remember, the democrat party has CLAIMED to be the party of the common man. Nancy Pelosi or John Kerry have no clue what it is to be common or poor.

My wife and I make a combined $44,000 a year and I believe the only way to have as many as possible in the country prosper is to get rid of every politician who believes that government is the ONLY solution.

dd22, if you want the answer to your question look at a political map. The reddest places are rural areas that are the least educated and the poorest. Think it's just a coincidence the republicans have such a distaste for education and keep trying to destroy it? If you want a clear definition of "the dumbing down of America" all you have to do is take a good look at the reddest of red areas.

I'm jest a unejukated poor republikan livin in a poor rurel area, I ain't smart enuf to vote for dem smart demorats. You #$%@^ dumb ass. Maybe the rural areas vote Republican because they would rather live an independent life then have the Federal government dictate their every move. Grow a *(^*&(% brain, you're not as smart as you think you are. What liberal college did you get your worthless degree from?

If you earn an income, you got a tax cut under the once-Bush-now-Obama tax cuts. If you don't, then you have nothing to complain about unless you truly think that what another earns is somehow owed to another.

And by the way, it's July 2011 and Bush and Cheney have been out of office for more than 2 years. Karl Rove holds no elected position.

Democratic National Committee chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultzstands by what she said.

“We own the economy.

CEOs have way more responsibility than the average worker. Want to be a CEO, go to school, earn the degree and work your way to the top. I know it can done. My uncle started digging ditches for a construction company when he was 18. He went to school at night, raised a family, and retired as the CEO of the same company.

Go USA - Of course a CEO has much more responsiblity than the average worker and should be paid accordingly. However, the disparity between the 23% raise and the 1/2% raise bothers me. I have read several reports stating that the average workers' average income has remained stagnant for quite some time.

Again, I certainly don't begrudge a CEO what he or she makes. Additionally, I don't begrudge the wealthy, period. I would just like to see middle-class income increase more than it has. Moreover, not everyone can or wants to become a CEO; we do need workers of all sorts.

Now, don't come back and tell me to go to school so that I can become a CEO. Actually, my husband and I do quite well. But, it seems as if our children our not faring as well as we did, with similar schooling and work ethic.

I`m amazed they got a raise at all most of the people I know had to take a cut in wages or benefits or both to keep their job and with the price of everything that went up you are much worse off than you were 30 years ago. It sure is not hurting the top dogs though they live better than the royalty of the past.

Ah yes, the nerve wracking responsibility of the poor CEO. Let's take a quick look at what it is a CEO does that deserves a salary 400 times what the workers of said company makes.

1. They have to toil for hours at the club talking about dirivatives and default swaps.

2. They have to work at a break neck pace dictating memos about quotas.

3. they have to instruct someone to bet against all those bad loans and insure them to the hilt.

4. Then when it all comes crashing down and half or more of the employees of said company have to be laid off the poor CEO has to get behind the wheel of his Bentley and drive himself to the bank to deposit his million dollar bonus he got for tanking the company.

5. Last but certainly not least the poor CEO has to get on his jet and fly to DC to sit before a bogus panel and justify his failure and why he's still worth millions a year.

Yes, it must take a lot of hard work and effort to be a CEO

.

Sally - Your post is certainly bitter. The CEO of any company puts in long hours, including some time "at the club." The don't have much of a life outside of the company.

Yes, it DOES take a lot of hard work and effort to be a CEO.

Both sides need to make sacrifices, make some cuts and stop the tax cuts for the rich. Keep essential program and modify them. Lower the wages and eliminate the pensions paid for by the people to these rich senators. They get enough from the puppet masters anyway. This would sure save us some money.

Really! Very good point.. Political and the mathmatically challenged seem to think 4 trillion reduction in 12 yrs. is a good thing.... and in reality it could be IF BO and Congress weren't running a 1.5 trillion a yr deficit! For you non mathmatical people we would only need to raise the Debt Cieling by 18 Trillion. Is that good or what?

John - The polls showed that the majority did not want Obamacare also, and want to be out of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Popularity polls don't mean squat. As far as the rich - when was the last time you got a job from a poor person, if you have a 401K I guess you realize the rich, through massive amounts of investing, control that as well. It does not matter which party is in control, the special interest groups control them.

Not so much raise the taxes but close the loop holes to make sure they pay whats already owed. BP wrote off 10 Billion on a cleanup. GE didn't pay anything after Billions made. SO just close the loopholes so their CPA's can't finaggle around and get them out of paying whats owed by using tax writeoffs.

But then as soon as they change it and close them the high paid CPA's will be looking for more holes.

True, the CPA's love a complex tax code. It keeps them in business. Get rid of the deductions and all the other crap, then go to a flat tax on Gross Earnings. It doesn't have to be the same rate on each income bracket, but tax on the Gross Earnings. No deductions or loop holes.

Why can't we have both spending cuts and increased taxes on everyone? It should not be just spending cuts, the only fair thing is for everyone to experience the pain, rich and poor, young and old. In order to not have a rebellion is for everyone to feel it's been done fairly. Just getting rid of Medicare and cutting education without the wealthy feeling some of the pain is just not fair. Congress needs to feel some of this pain too, like maybe a pay cut or benefits cut (after all, they're actually the ones who caused this whole thing). Of course taxing the rich won't balance the budget, I don't think anyone thinks it will. Every dollar not spent, and every extra dollar that is brought into the treasury will help.

patriot(sic) You probably don't realize that a lot of the crap is on your boots.

matt,

There are drugs that can help you.

Don't be too quick to dismiss and judge Matt, Economan-

With that POS Socialist Commie we have sitting in the White House I wouldn't rule ANYTHING out-

Don't be too quick to dismiss and judge Matt, Economan-

With that POS Socialist Commie we have sitting in the White House I wouldn't rule ANYTHING out-

Don't be too quick to dismiss and judge Matt, Economan-

With that Socialist Commie we have sitting in the White House I wouldn't rule ANYTHING out-

Thanks for your doom and gloom report............................................

Now, go back to reading your survival magazines and hole up somewhere; preferably as far away from here as possible.

'We need a clean raising of the debt ceiling now! We need to support our troops protecting us overseas from another terrorist attack! Deficits don't matter!' - GWB 43.

Well, one could argue that the little guys will be hit too when you nail big oil for instance. Businesses pass the cost onto the little guy consumer.

Oh, and another little example....I just bought a round trip airline ticket that cost me around 350 bucks. The governments take was 60 big ones. They will drain us all, don't worry lol

...and then, the government hits up the airlines on the money they earned, as well as in payroll taxes when they pay their employees. The government gets plenty of cash, they just dont manage it worth a @!$%#

...and then, when the employees of the airlines spends their money after taxes, it gets hit up again when they pay for any services they may render from their hard work...and so on, and so on,, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on....again and again and again and again and again and again

Heather-

very well said-

Boomer812

Right you are-

This is just another Bullsheit doomsday scare tactic by Barry Hussein to distract us from him and his incompetence-

call his bluff-

Yep, you're right,and you know what? I'm sick of this same old shell game crap. The only reason they go down to the final hour is so they can make deals behind closed doors that no one gets the blame for. Then their asses can get re elected while the play the Rep/Dem blame game to the day they die. I can't believe most of you buy into it. So, I will do the only thing I can, vote independant and vote every clown that gets in office out until they start working for us instead of them. This includes Obama and all the other clowns we will get to pick from. It does'nt matter if you're black white or orange or a female or male. VOTE 'EM ALL OUT!