Roselle,

While we can all agree that Obama is bad and deserves the "bashing" he is getting, why is that you say that the Tea Party and the Republicans have not offered any ideas. I'll use one example to your "They don't offer any ideas, just bashing obama.." Have you head of a guy named Paul Ryan? He has offered up a solution to some of our debt problems and a path to try to provide medical care for future old people. You may not like his proposal, but at least he has made one, your lie of "They never offer any ideas" is just that, a lie.

Feisty:

You make a good point. They are lost right now and have no real leadership. These guys are all over the map on what they stand (say the stand) for. They have no new ideas and the ones they have either have be proved to be failures or the American people just hate them like the Ryan Bill and others.

For a Party that attacks President Obama 24/7/365 they are pretty light on any ideas of their own to create jobs, stimulate the economy and improve education.

They only thing they all agree on is making President Obama a failure and no compromises no matter how much damage and carnage this causes our country or the global market.

These ideas are not compatible with democracy as we know it. Something major is going to have to happen in this country before everybody stops the crap and figures out it is better to have a piece of the pie instead ofnone. This my way or the highway is not an "American Ideology", this country was built on working together on a common goal and everybody made sacrifices for the common good. This appears to be no longer true in this country.

What a joke!

USN, please point out to me where you have done anything but "bash" the Tea Party members or the Republican party members. And your comment is that all the GOP/TP members do is bash the president. I think he did a great job getting OBL, and so do many other conservatives and have stated so publicly. How about you, have you found any value in anything the right has said or proposed? Are you open to any new ideas or is your mind completely made up and closed?

Ah that is so cute - Navy wants to talk about the lack of leadership with the republicans.

Yeah Navy, you are right, but I wonder, in your world do you think the might be a problem with leadership with the dems?

Oh wait you all got that leadership from behind thing going. Plus you are back to cold hard re-distribution talk.

JC - I also love the "old worn out Obama bashing" from the crowd still working the fun and lively Bush bashing. Just wait until August, when unemployment hits 10%. It'll be all Bush all the time.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

You write"

'These ideas are not compatible with democracy as we know it." and "This my way or the highway is not an "American Ideology"

Yet if anyone posts anything that is at all critical of Obama you go after them like a rabid dog.

The Republicans put forth some ideas that you don't agree with but no new budget from the democrats, no economic plan, unemployment up, housing prices down, foreclosures up, shovel ready jobs admitted to be a joke by everyone, 3 wars, summer of recovery is a joke, should be wreck-overy.

Did you answer the questions on the previous thread yet?

Navy?

It would be pretty hard to spin the execution of Osama bin Laden as a bad thing, but I'm pretty sure there are Republicans working on it somewhere.

Spanky-

Oh wait you all got that leadership from behind thing going. Plus you are back to cold hard re-distribution talk.

But, Spanky I thought you liked it when things are behind. At least that's what you posted once.

rry Bev. I seem to have left my jibberish decoder at home today.

What is it you are trying to say dear?

But, Spanky I thought you liked it when things are behind.

LMAO GF!

Why, yes, I believe he did... ;o)

Although he claims to enjoy chasing river 'skanks', I believe it's really the 'snakes' that get his engine purring!

Mitt Romney committed voter fraud when he cast a ballot for Scott Brown in last year's special election in Massachusetts.

The state defines residence as "where a person dwells and which is the center of his domestic, social, and civil life."

Using that definition, Karger spent some time interviewing Belmont residents, including members of the Romneys' local Mormon Temple, where they'd been regulars, and asked people when they'd last seen the the former Massachusetts governor or his wife around town. The local fishmonger told Karger, "They flew the coop. They moved to California. I haven't seen Mrs. Romney in over two years, and she used to come in here all the time." Likewise, churchgoers used to worshiping with the Romneys told Karger that they also hadn't seen the Romneys in a couple years.

Fraudulent voter registration in Massachusetts carries a penalty of $10,000 and up to five years in jail. So I doubt if Mittens gets the nod.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/did-mitt-romney-commit-voter-fraud

================================================

BTW: FRED KARGER is the Republican presidential candidate who filed a complaint with the Massachusetts elections board.

Where is Breibart when you need him?

...but poor Mittens reportedly was living in his sons' unfinished basement in MA at the time!

He was damn near homeless........unemployed!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

But, Spanky I thought you liked it when things are behind.

LMAO GF!

Why, yes, I believe he did... ;o)

Although he claims to enjoy chasing river 'skanks', I believe it's really the 'snakes' that get his engine purring!

Yup, river 'skanks', LMAO too. See the Spank(er) is so far behind he doesn't even remember he said it.

Hey, Spank(er) go back and check your "Pecker Checker Wein-gate" file; darling.

So much for that whole "I've got you on ignore" eh Feisty?

And it's not chase river skanks. They come to my boat freely. Trick is to have a nice boat and full cooler.

Natty lights and Cuervo gold for all. It's like libbies to a Brietbart story, they just cannot help themselves.

Yep, 4th of July is right around the corner.

Spanky-

So much for that whole "I've got you on ignore" eh Feisty?

You can be on ignore and surmise from another post. Even a 5th grader could see that. But you can't because you have pre- school urges.

And it's not chase river skanks. They come to my boat freely. Trick is to have a nice boat and full cooler.

Natty lights and Cuervo gold for all. It's like libbies to a Brietbart story, they just cannot help themselves.

Yep, 4th of July is right around the corner.

It's more like your chances of hitting the lottery jackpot that the young girls would come to your boat; you old goat!!!

You can be on ignore and surmise from another post.

Could you IMAGINE hiring this idiot as YOUR attorney? LMAO!

Amy B. Portland, ME..

The death of OBL is a bright spot, perhaps the only bright spot, in a long dry spell. Even giving him the benefit of every doubt, he has come up way short of what he promised.

Now, he and McCain and Graham all agree that all 3 wars are necessary and somehow in the national interests of the US.

He's acquiesced to virtually every other GOP demand, but this move to the extreme right really scares me.

It's the pecker-pics that draw 'em- don't let him fool you. Pics of his own, that is. The guy's a little 'weird' in that way. Likes to worryy about every body else, but him. He's a real piece of work, ain't he?

Why gosh Feisty that is just what Nojo said about you and your comments, and yet you blew a gasket on her.

You are precious old gal. AND according to my pal Drive BY, so am I. But don't worry Feisty to retain me you'd have to come up with a retainer fee. I'm guessing you probable lack sufficient funds.

So Drive By - how about that Boeing lawsuit? Great stuff right? Really promotes business to hire, right?

Can someone please tell me why Feisty is allowed to continue spewing her hate without any consensuses? FR I am talking to you!

Again, Feisty at her finest - (Fri- attack on nojo, sick)

1. Still got the battery acid running through your veins eh NJNB?

We would like to believe that after you recent near heartbreak, you would of re-assessed the amount of hatred you carry in your heart...

We should of known better....

2.You GO get them you miserable OLD BAT M'Kay?

PS: Thought you had me on ignore?

Nothing more than further PROOF you're a LIAR & and FRAUD...

DO YOU know where your hubby is? LMAO!

3. And therein lies the title you've so succesfully earned as the seond biggest LIAR on this blog right behind JS1!

YOU are a PHONY, FRAUD & a unsuccesul LIAR!

You have been PROVEN repeatedly to soak up EVERY comment like the right wind sponge YOU are!

Notice to NJNB - there were MORE people defending my comments then those that came to your rescue!

That little princess of yours has my deepest sympathies with a HATE riddled Grama like yourself!

Just keepon hating on... one day you will get yours! ;o)

Every dog has her day and it won't take long before YOU get yours...

4 .What's the matter NJNB - hubby out of town AGAIN? I would be more worried about WHAT was UPwith that then spreading you your HATRED every chance you get?

Do YOU think the hubby wants to get it on with a BITTER OLD BROAD that couldn't day something NICE if they had a GUN to their head?

Anyone else would have had the account suspended.

Thanks again for prioving YOU are a certifiable LIAR there GF!

Other than with someone WHO is WARM

Feisty,

I've never heard of retaining a paralegal; but I guess California is just THAT liberal, eh?

I've never heard of retaining a paralegal; but I guess California is just THAT liberal, eh?

I'm telling you - he's FR's very own Gomez Addams! lol

Groucho, this slays me: he has come up way short of what he promised

President Obama said he would withdraw troops from Iraq, and he has. He said the real fight was in Afghanistan (where the Taliban hosted al-Qieda). He and Bob Gates have publically disagreed how fast we should withdraw troops there, with Obama pushing to leave faster, but being cautious not to leave in such a way as to result in a bloodbath. President Obama said his administration would use diplomacy as much as our military, and I think getting Arab nations on board with getting rid of Qaddafy, was amazing. Susan Rice at the UN is incredibly effective. The Republicans were accusing Obama of "dithering" over Libya and now they are accusing him of doing too much. I don't know how President Obama puts up with these attacks, I really don't.

Amy B. Portland, ME..

There are still over 50,000 troops in Iraq and they are still being wounded, maimed and worse, killed. Why are they there if he called an end to combat operations? Why are we spending billions a day.

Our stated mission in Afghanistan was to rid the country of Al-Qaeda and kill Osama Bin Laden. As the Taliban are out of power, Al-Qaeda almost vanquished and OBL dead, I'd say mission accomplished. The Afghan's can take over.

Obama is now reluctant to withdraw as little as 15,000 troops, half of what was committed to the "surge" His own timetable has us there to at least 2014. It was, if you remember, supposed to be 2011.

It took ten years of American blood and money to get us here. He promised to end the wars and yet they are both still killing our men and draining our Treasury.

Now Libya, almost a billion dollars and no exit strategy as long as Gaddafi is in power. We helped establish a no fly zone and civilians have been saved from Gaddafi. Again, mission accomplished. This is now a civil war, way beyond the UN mandate.

There were clear goals defined for each of these missions. Obama defined them. I don't know why he can't keep to what he has stated concerning our involvement in these conflicts.

Great that McCain and Graham agree with though.

Well golly gee - Obama gets a terrorist... Bush got a dictator. Some comparison.

Interesting weekend... Carrot Top in drag decides to use ThinkProgress as a source for some mismash about Herman Cain - so I go hunting on ThinkProgress. What did my wondering eyes behold... Why, ThinkProgress was bashing Obama for the $133 Billion spent in Afghanistan. I was wondering what Carrot Top in drag would comment on her favorite source of liberal information bashing Obama. Nada, nothing, not a peep. I'm sure a deep foreboding came over Carrot Top. What a betrayal... a slap in the face.

Now Carrot Top is wondering about the opposition and why they don't support any Republican candidate.... Don't worry your red head about it Carrot Top. You have no say in the selection. All you can do is stand on the sidelines and watch. Your comments don't mean a thing because they will make their choices without any of your input.

Obama's record is such a mess this days he's a very easy target, why would the Republicans need to bash each other...?

Pick a Obama blunder, pick any one you want.... the guy is a political version of Redd Fox's character in Sanford and Son! Many think Elmer Fudd can beat him... lol!

Eventually the Republican candidates will be narrowed down and and they'll find a candidate that can beat BO without raising a sweat. Obama's worst enemy until Nov. 2012 is himself (and Biden), I'm sure they won't disappoint!

Methinks fiesty has been dipping into the sauce a bit too much today by the looks of posts...

Hey Clara the current billing rate for paralegals at my firm is $150 per hour.

You think Fiesty could afford that? I no think so.

Totas - nice work brother. I think you just drop that little nugget in after every one of Feisty's posts. Let's shine the light directly on her. Make he own those despicable comments.

Clearly the is no actual moderator around.

My favorite: "do you think the hubby wants to get it on with a bitter old broad...gun to her head." Very relevant and particularly disgusting after the Giffords incident, but that's just our Feisty I guess.

My last consulting rate was $200 an hour Spanky,...and my father in law's law firm here in the Midwest wouldn't bill a junior at that rate. But go ahead, bank away, buddy, bank away.

Hey Clara the current billing rate for paralegals at my firm is $150 per hour.

For pity sake, Spanky ... no WONDER your clients can't afford to pay their taxes.

So Drive By - how about that Boeing lawsuit? Great stuff right? Really promotes business to hire, right?

I'm still waiting for you to explain how this Boeing thing results in anything but a sum-zero on jobs and less pay and benefits for the Carolina workers who will get the jobs, while the shareholders pocket the difference and the Washington workers lose out.

I guess that's your idea of a "jobs" bill, but it's not mine.

Well good on you Clara - raking in the big bucks. But of course a junior associate would bill out at a much higher rate. Clara, you do understand the difference between a paralegal and an associate?

And AM, guess we'll just have to let the NRLB's suit play out. Although it looks like it is already backing away from its suit. My bold prediction is that is will be quietly dismissed inside of a month.

But as you know Boeing did hire 2000 workers in Washington after it built the new plant. Jobs, jobs and lawsuits. Big fun.

But tell me, how can I get in on that non-refundable fee thing-y you all got there in Wisc. Sounds terrific.

Hey Spanks,

The NLRB is not suing Boeing for a capricious, partisan reason, and you fully know better. The NLRB is taking this action because Boeing was intimidating the Union with threats to move the jobs unless the Union capitulated to contract demands. That is a clear, emphatic, untenable, undeniable violation of the National Labor Relations Act. Threats of reprisal for Union activity is a violation of that law. P-E-R-I-O-D!

Also, the company is not making "new" jobs in South Carolina!! It is moving "old" Union jobs from Washington state to South Carolina so that they may become, non-Unionized jobs.

I find it difficult at best to believe that Boeing will not turn a profit if these jobs do not become non-Union particularly with all the defense work they have.

The autos are the same way. I have in my possession a copy of an article from a local newspaper called the Oakland Press. In that article they tell of Ford in Mexico trying to implement a two-tier wage system for new Ford hires at the Mexican assembly plants there.

According to the article, the current Mexican Ford assembly plant workers are making $4.50 / hour, and Ford wants to halve that down to $2.25 / hour!!

Now tell me. Is anyone on this board ignorant enough to believe that subtracting $2.25 / hour from Mexican wages will improve the chances of Ford's survival?

Just as in America this maneuver is a psychological head game only. If auto execs think that a two-tier wage system is the only thing that the survival of these companies hangs on, then lets get a two-tier wage system for executives!!! Think how much more $$$$$ we'll save!!!

The vast right-wing conspiracy needs to be cautious at this juncture. Labor unrest is what started the protest in Tunis to topple their leader. Labor unrest is what catalyzed the shipyard strikes and "Solidarnosc" movement in Poland with Lech Walesa that toppled the Soviet Empire, Labor unrest is what has begun the protests / uprising in Wisconsin.

The fat cats have bitten off too much for too long. The atmosphere is potentially violent and explosive. I wouldn't screw with it if I were you righties. Might ultimately prove fatal to your "movement".

After all,......you do have the wealth and power, but there are waaaaaay more of us than there are of you. Think it over.

ahh, Spanky, I thought you knew we were speaking in CODE for your ACTUAL job title.

my bad.

WOW Greg - you managed to get all the Boeing facts exactly wrong.

How surprising. And dude is that last line some kind of threat? We going full anarchy, cause if we are my boy Drive By will tell you I am fully prepared. Hell, I suspect I'll even be able to profit from it.

But hey maybe the NLRB suit won't just go away on its own. I sure hope not, cause it is a great club to pound on Obama and his job killing administration.

And Clara - hello, I'm a conservative. Easily confused.

Spanky,

This is the one that caught my eye.

there were MORE people defending my comments then those that came to your rescue!

and this is what motivated me to ask for her removal. Sounds like a threat to me, what say you?

Every dog has her day and it won't take long before YOU get yours...

Here we go! Greg in Detroit is threatening violence. I guess to the labor unions, violence is the only way to go when they don't get what they want. No wonder they are called "Union Thugs!" A group of unhappy assembly line workers losing their marbles, wanting everything under the sun, and making me pay over $20,000 for a vehicle because THEY make $35-$50 an hour to screw in widgets. Then they blame the corporations... I think union workers have loose screws!

is that last line some kind of threat?

No.

It is an inevitability.

I guess to the labor unions, violence is the only way to go when they don't get what they want. No wonder they are called "Union Thugs!"

Right wing talking points. Goodie. You touched every base, Brian B. You've never been a Union member and never will be. I'll think of you, as I enjoy my negotiated pension, fully-paid medical benefits in retirement, ALL UNION-NEGOTIATED. If you are a good little right-wing tool I will hire you then to cut my grass. Promise. That is when you are done being Rush Limbaugh's footstool/piss-boy.

Thuggery is practiced on the management end, not the Union's. Allegations are rampant, like when your party's propaganda arm filmed a Union dust-up in Florida and tried to palm it off as Wisconsin. Palm trees in Wisconsin,....in January!!! I'm glad that your side attracts all the Mensa candidates!! BWAHAHAHA!

How about when Scott Walker admitted to considering planting "trouble makers" among the Union protesters? He was taped!! Caught. Seriously, isn't that inciting a riot? Isn't that offense prosecutable?

Too bad your rhetoric does not match fact,.....again.

totas - I am absolutely sure Feisty gets hers everyday. It is why she is who she is. As pathetic as is sounds - she really does live through this blog and derives personal merit from getting little green stars.

Keep pounding her with that re-post of her vile comments totas. The light is a great think.

Good work. As you can see from the last thread, even her purported friends are backing away. They get it. Sadly, she never will.

You know who could have used a "union thug"? 11 guys vaporized on an oil rig that had huge problems and recorded safety violations, they could have used a guy who might threaten to throw some managers ass in the ocean if they don't stop putting peoples lives, the companies equipment, and the gulf of Mexico in danger. You know what 29 men who were killed in a Massey energy coal mine with hundreds of safety violations could have used, they could have used a "union thug" who would tell management if it is so safe get out from behind your desk and come walk the mine with me. A guy who when he does say it's safe goes in and works side by side with you in that mine. The safety issues that occur in industry can pop up as fast as the next silly idea somebody has, you have to put a stop to it right then and there, you don't have the luxury of filing you concerns with the complaint department, while men get busted up or killed. I'm getting a little old for that kind of thing but if you want to call me a thug then so be it but I have taken and given a punch in the nose a few times in 30 years to stop some jerk from putting men unnecessarily in harms way. What choice do you have in the moment, you either stop it or you don't, waiting until after the man is mangled and then filing some paperwork does nothing for him and his family. You call me a thug but if you were in my crew and somebody knowingly or unknowingly was going to put you in harms way and I could not convince him any other way then yeah there is going to be a fight. I know the wives and children of all those oil rig workers wish somebody would have stood up to stop what lots of people knew was wrong but said nothing. I bet they wish their husbands and daddy's came home with bloody noses, just as long as they came home. I swear you do not want to know what it is like to bring a mans tools and belongings that has died on the job to his widow, and explain whatever death benefits and insurance she and her children are entitled to. I know what that is like, it is heartbreaking, believe me a punch in the nose is no big deal.

@JCinG

The Democrats have a plan, medicare is the plan, and the vast majority of Americans want to keep it, and Republicans found that out, so now they try to say well it really was just a starting point for negotiations. However hypothetical negotiations are BS and the Ryan Plan is hypothetical. Have you ever re-negotiated a contract, that is what this is, we have a contract now, so that is the starting point. This is not buying a house where you throw out offers and see what happens, there is already an existing contract, and so that is the starting point, matter of fact until and unless that contract expires you don't need to renegotiate at all and you still have the terms of the existing contract. You are confusing politics and positioning before negotiations with the actual process of negotiating. Let me try an example, lets say we have an existing contract to pay you 10 dollars an hour, we mutually agree that we should re-negotiate the contract, are you going to let me start the negotiations at 1 dollar an hour, you think I'm going to let you start at 100 dollars an hour. The negotiation starts with the existing contract, if either one of us pulls a stunt like I just previously described you instantly run the risk of the other side calling BS and walking away. When that happens there is no negotiation and the existing contract remains in effect until it reaches an expiration date if there is one, because that is the existing contract. Medicare is an existing contract that needs renegotiating that is generally agreed on. The republican house came in with a very radical departure from the original contract and basically said this is our position and we are standing firm on it. The other side cried BS and walked away, they are holding an existing contract so if they believe the other side is not being earnest about actually negotiating, they don't have to and should not renegotiate, especially since the people they represent don't even want to renegotiate.

Good for you, Forrest. Good for you.

Forrest, You nailed it.

The democrats have no other plan than to scare the hell out of folks counting on Medicare!

Shame on them to so fragrantly lie about the Republican's plan for medicare to score political points! Liberals are political whores.... there's another article today at msnbc.com about whining and how irritating it is.... I was sure it was about liberal democrats!

shame on them to so "fragrantly" lie

damn!! is there some freaking rule that says you have to be illiterate in order to join the moron republican party!! for the love of the almighty creator how many does this make this week, and it is only monday!!!

The democrats did not unveil that plan, they did not explain it at republican town meetings, or in NY district 26, republicans that watch fox don't like it, the tea party does not like it, it polls at just about 80-20. Frankly I wish the democrats were that good at messageing but they aren't. It sucks on its owns merits.

shame on them to so "fragrantly" lie

Pretty fancy way of calling somebody a stinking liar!

Yeah Forrest!! We had a non-Union guy doing electrical installation in a cherry picker at the old facility we were working in on Plymouth Road. Used to be the old AMC World HQ. CEO of that company was a guy named Romney, but that's another story.

The non-Union guy reached for the wrong end of a 440 Buss. Management had him in there working alone on a Saturday. In the UAW, if you work on a Saturday it is a rule that someone is always scheduled to work with you,....and safety first. The line gets booted, and/or the juice gets cut off.

That juice hit the guy, and he got blown out of that basket 20 feet over a concrete floor.

They didn't find his corpse until Monday morning.

But good news! The company saved some money by not having to pay two guys, so silver lining eh, Spanky?

Thank God for Unions, and any manager that asks me to do something dangerous will see me doing the job with his little children strapped to my body. Like you say, they ought to have skin in the game.

Excellent post Forrest!!! I'm with you all the way brother!! By the way. The last guy I put up at my house here as a Democratic Election worker was an IBEW member. He personally met Bob King, and I personally met Ron Gettlefinger at the Michigan Democratic Convention in Detroit. I thanked him for partnering with Barack Obama to save my job and my family's income.

Still,....there are people who "get" it. Around contract time the non-Union guys used to ask us "Hey,...you guys get any new benefits this time round',...cause whatever you get,...we get."

We know a lady who works for Detroit Edison. In a meeting around our contract talks her benefits administrator told them to wait until after UAW contract talks to determine what their benefits would look like because "whatever happens to them waterfalls down to you."

Yeah.

American by birth,...Union by CHOICE!!

A whole lot of jobs were saved a whole lot of white collar non union jobs as well, some post here how Obama did it for his union buddies, well I think most people would be amazed at how many white collar jobs are in that same manufacturing plant. When the plant goes so does the plant engineers, and quality control, and the art department and plant accounting and payroll, and it goes on and on. I'm sure you can get the numbers Greg but I have done a lot of work in car plants and in a modern car plant and the offices next door there are about as many white collar jobs as their are UAW production jobs. When you get into the suppliers down the food chain, you will realize that the union UAW jobs were the smallest percentage of jobs saved. What possible good could it have done for GM and Chrysler to go under, how can people make saving them out to be a bad thing is beyond me. Is it just because some union jobs were saved along with thousands and thousands of others. I wonder how many people realize that a full size GM van comes off the truck line every 54 seconds. they don't make the whole thing that fast but when the line is primed and running there is a full size van coming off every 54 seconds, so just how much do think the labor cost is, you should see how hard and fast these people work, they earn every penny on that assembly line. Greg how fast do the vehicles come off your assembly line?

That's still about the same rate Forrest!! I work in Chrysler's Advanced Metrology Group, and I operate a portable metrology instrument to root cause issues in assembly and production. I am a Metrology Inspector, salary UAW, kinda' white collar, kinda' blue collar. I work with engineering.

Individual components are inspected as well to ensure conformity to GD &T, dimensional control, etc...

I work at Chrysler's massive World HQ, the second largest office building in the world.

Our lines run at the same speed, about 1 per minute. I also worked on the line at Cadillac in Detroit on the assembly line to earn money for school. I installed steering wheels. They weighed about 40 # apiece and I did about 500 / night. I checked them on broadcast sheets to ensure that a blue steering wheel was going in a blue Cadillac, and that it had cruise, tilt, etc....the appropriate options.

Work was brutal, mind-numbing, hot physically demanding. I remember they had us wear cloth protective sleeves on our forearms because some of the fiberglass particles lingered on the plastic seat covers and they used to stick in our arms and cause a sort of rash. I don't know what that fiberglass will do in my lungs as I age. Sheltered auto workers. Really? My sister Diane died a few years ago from exposure to workplace toxins at an auto facility in Adrian, Michigan. The judge who ruled on her workman's comp suit said it was the most painstakingly-documented, open-and-shut case of company malfeasance he'd seen in his years on the bench. My sister documented her own death so that her husband would benefit after she passed.

Indoor temperature on hot summer days was over 100 degrees, and there was a slaughterhouse across Scotten Avenue from the Cadillac plant, and when the wind was blowing the right way it made for a real pleasant night. Trust me.

I remember one night I got sick on my lunch, ate bad fish or something. I was nauseous. I pleaded with Luther, my foreman to allow me to go to medical, but he said he'd "try to find somebody". He didn't try that hard, so about 20 minutes later I stuck my head in a garbage can and did the "technicolor yawn" right into it. Fun times. Vomiting on my knees.

Untreated steering wheels sailed past in the meantime as people screamed for the foreman, and did my job while I vomited. The line does not stop just because you need to do something as trivial as vomit. I returned to work as I sucked vomit-filled snot out of my nose where it had become lodged. This is stuff about sheltered assembly line workers that Rush Limbaugh fails to mention. I could fill a book with stories.

Hard, hard work. Spanky would last about 3 minutes before collapsing, or from getting his face bashed in while spouting his elitist repub crap.

Assembly line workers more than earn their wage. The company seizes upon any opportunity to fire Bargaining Unit employees. Union plant electricians tell me they turn out their pockets before leaving because if they are caught with some of the wire nuts they use still in their pockets they can get fired. I think a wire nut cost, what, eighty cents apiece? Your lunch box is searched before you exit the plant so that they can be sure you are not smuggling a Cadillac out the door.

As a Union employee you are hated and persecuted. Except in other countries. There you are esteemed.

Forrest and Greg, thank you for educating many of those on this thread as to the real life benefits of unions today. My uncle was a teamster. He drove a truck. His wife came down with ALS. He died of a massive heart attack due to stress of taking care of her. She died two week later. he left two young children, now orphans. He had insurance and a pension that went to the children.

My daughter is a nurse and belongs to a union. They bargain over how many patients a nurse should care for at one time to keep the quality of care the best.

My son is a teacher and they bargained over heath care and pensions and took a pay freeze for the last two contracts. Our former governor T. Pawlenty balanced the state budget by postponing the state aid payment to school districts to the next cycle, The next cycle is here and now the Republican legislature want to delay the payments again.

Union people pay taxes, do their jobs!! The recession and its effects will not disappear by demonizing unions. Folks, you are looking in the wrong places.

How is a guy making 35 million on wall street pushing phony paper good for the economy, because he is rich, because rich people create jobs but a guy that makes 35 dollars an hour building a car from thousands of parts made by other workers is destroying the economy. How can you root for the 35 million guy, and at the same time begrudge the 35 an hour man, seriously, I don't get it.

Thank you Northstar and Forrest. Thank your daughter for her service. Sounds like the apple don't fall far. You have to be a caring, compassionate person to be a nurse. They put up with an immense amount of s**t.

The primary occupations that NEED to be Unionized are: cops, firefighters, nurses, teachers, miners, electricians/linemen, nuclear plant workers, truck drivers, locomotive engineers, steelworkers, autoworkers, etc...

Those people put it on the line every day, and they are vital to commerce and need the safety nets Union negotiating power can provide.

One more thing if I am such a thug, how come whenever an owner put his kid out as a summer helper, or his future son in law, or his nephew, how come the first job they were always placed on was in my crew. You think he was put there to keep an eye on me? Well I can tell you that many times I was told by the owner "he's brand new Forrest, teach him something" and the kid was told, "this man is your boss listen to him", was that about putting his kid under the wing of a "union thug".

Forrest,.....you thug you!!

Say Drive By did you catch the article earlier on Obama and gay marriage? Maybe Obama can borrow Mitt wind vein. Gotta know from which direction and all, right?

It's 17 months to the general election, the Republican field isn't even set yet, and FR is wringing it's hands over what Romney is going to do. Geeze.

There is only one candidate for 2012 that is in 100% campaign mode, spending all his time with going to fundraisers and running around the country campaigning, totally and 100% engaged in the campaign season and ignoring everything else. And that candidate is Barack Obama.

JoAnnaSmith1

yay! that must mean we're ahead!

Amy: yay! that must mean we're ahead!

Of course it does. No worries dearie.

It will be amusing watching Weathervane Willard spin in whichever direction the wind happens to be blowing.

Mitt says the young people like him because he listens to Flip-Hop and Hip-Flop music. Pretty Fly for a White Guy.

They never offer any ideas" is just that, a lie.

I'm talking about here at FR!

Thanks for the info!

JC,

Ryan had to reassure conservatives “disappointed that his plan still adds $8 trillion in debt while failing to balance the budget for at least two decades.”

And you call this a plan? If a Democrat offered this same plan, would you still call it a solution for our problems?

JC in G

Of what good is an IDEA if the people do not accept it? if Obama is bad, GOP led congress is worse and Teapublican is worst......just my opinion.

If nobody likes Mittens, where did that, I think 10 Million dollars in compaign donations come from? Didn't he raise it in a week or so!

Somebody likes Mittens!

I love mittens. Much better than gloves.

So chilled you bone up on the purposes and functionality of class actions yet?

Knowledge is power my friend.

Spanky, try to get a grip on your Rascal tendencies!

...why is the grass green?

...why is the sky blue?

....I'm sure you know everything about everything, and with certainty!.......

....The GOP/TP needs you!

Poor chilled, no so much knowledge or power.

But yeah, I got "Rascal tendencies."

Oh, and as a longtime First read regular: the grass is green and the sky is blue cause Obama decreed it so. Just like the fact that the seas are no longer rising, and the earth is no longer warming.

That guy is special.

Spanky........"That guy is special"

You know it.........

Spanky:

I seem to have left my jibberish decoder at home today.

No, you're wearing it. I can see it from here.

It's just working in reverse.

Your spell checker, however, is not working at all. ;-)

Damn you spell checker.

But how can you tell? It is my eloquence shinning through. Wait I meant elegance.

Dammit Bev,. where'd you put the thesaurus?

Spanky-

Damn you spell checker.

But how can you tell? It is my eloquence shinning through. Wait I meant elegance.

Dammit Bev,. where'd you put the thesaurus?

You know it all why do you need the thesaurus; dolly?

Bev, you know a Thesaurus isn't a pre-historic animal...Right?

I hate to give you any cover, white collar; but that was actually pretty funny.

Thanks Clara, I know that was hard to do. Have a great day.

You gave me a laugh and I gave you a vote White Collar Auto.

Sorry JC,

The Ryan plan is a nowhere plan that crushes the poor and middle class. I hoping that the Democrats continue to hammer the Republicans on this plan until the elections.

On balance has Obama enacted more liberal or conservative policies so far?

Let's make a list Steeler. I start with 5 conservative policies: 1. Tax cuts, 2. Gitmo open; 3. Troop increases in Iraq; 4. Libya; 5. No single payer/a private insurance based Obamacare plan.

Your turn.

The Teapublicans and the regular Republicans don't much like each other. We have a Teapublican governor in Maine who has vetoed bills unanimously passed in the legislature - never bothering to warn his fellow Republicans he might do that - and generally causing lots of problems for the moderates. (Heck, the guy embarrasses the whole state, but the Maine Republican Party has do the PR work to manage him.)

Naturally, the conservatives in the state think he's great.

It's amazing that the "small gov'ment" crowd fight so hard to be a part of it.

They should not want to be a part of something that they hate!

I believe that they want to be part of a successful America more than they want to be part of a political machine. I applaud any politician that fights for the advancement of America's principles regardless of their political party affiliations.

So true Red.

Say you all think that maybe there may be a word or two that Obama used while trying to get elected that bite bite him in the ass? Like:

1. I'll close Gitmo;

2. I'll end the wars;

3. Raising the debt ceiling would be a failure of leadership;

4. Anything immigration related;

5. Energy costs will skyrocket. Oh. oooops.

Hey this is fun, anyone want to play along? Yep, Feisty is right, lots of flip flops, lots to be used against.

Spanky-

So true Red.

Say you all think that maybe there may be a word or two that Obama used while trying to get elected that bite bite him in the ass? Like:

1. I'll close Gitmo;

2. I'll end the wars;

3. Raising the debt ceiling would be a failure of leadership;

4. Anything immigration related;

5. Energy costs will skyrocket. Oh. oooops.

Hey this is fun, anyone want to play along? Yep, Feisty is right, lots of flip flops, lots to be used against.

Sure, when you learn how a bill gets passed!!!

Straight up Bev. But I love me my School house Rocks. And my lovely Rachel M. She 'splained it to me.

I learned that when you have a Super Majority you can do what you want.

Wasn't that a lovely time for you Bev. : When Obama had that Super Majority?

But the issue was passing laws - it was campaign promises. Fun stuff, right?

Spanky-

Straight up Bev. But I love me my School house Rocks. And my lovely Rachel M. She 'splained it to me.

I learned that when you have a Super Majority you can do what you want.

Wasn't that a lovely time for you Bev. : When Obama had that Super Majority?

But the issue was passing laws - it was campaign promises. Fun stuff, right?

Then, if that's the case you'd know everybody does not play fairly in the sand lot; even if the box gets bigger. At least you should since you like playing childish games.

Lets take a look at Obama's'2012 Re-Elect Me' glossy brochure! Unemployment. Promised 6.9% by now, with his Stimulus package, which he got. It's 9.1%. Obama keeps saying the deficit/debt are important, so important, he keeps spending $200+ billion a month we don't have. Obama doesn't like the Ryan Budget/Entitlement Reform plan - when asked to produce one of his own, Obama chuckles and goes golfing. Israel is real happy with us telling them to give back their land - Libya has Obama'sbacking, but for what, no one has a clue (Is it a war, a conflict, or just a disagreement among friends?). Gas is under a $4 a gallon, I guess that's a "win" for Obama, but it started out at $1.80 when Obama took office. And ObamaCare - unimplementable, expensive, and will probably turn out to be illegal. Just another waste of time.

I guess Obama will have to go into 2012 with Hope and Change II and Yes We Can (except it will take 8 years).

Lets take a look at Obama's'2012 Re-Elect Me' glossy brochure! Unemployment. Promised 6.9% by now, with his Stimulus package, which he got. It's 9.1%

Seriously, you want to go back to that sweetie?

In case you missed it last week David Walker handed you your a@@ about your BOLD FACED LIE:

David Walker

To all Viners except JoAnnaSmith:

Yesterday, Ms. Smith put up a fictitious quote: "My Stimulus plan will hold unemployment below 8%". There was no attribution for this "quote" nor a link to where it might be found. I challenged her to provide attribution.

Alan, NJ nobly came to her defense. He provided a link to an article in Time magazine in which the Bernstein/Romer report was the subject. You may recall that they foolishly suggested an 8% unemployment rate was possible, if the stimulus plan was put into place. They DID NOT state that the rate would be 8%.

Nonetheless, Smith seizes on this as justification to pretend the President actually made this statement. Again, I remind you dear reader that the 8% number was an estimate, a prediction, AND more importantly for purposes of this discussion, was never stated by the President.

Again, I challenged Smith. Her response is essentially this: If you don't like my facts, don't read or comment on my posts. Unfortunately, too many people read her lies and assume them to be fact. She does appear to have a command of the facts. Why shouldn't she? She makes 'em up.

Whether you like or hate the dogma Smith routinely trots out in her posts, nothing is believable if she has no commitment to accuracy, fact, or honesty. Quotation marks are not some sort of literary device to be bent and twisted. They mean someone actually said exactly what is contained in those marks.

What Smith has done here is to identify herself as a member of "the-ends-justify-the-means" crowd. How much of this, "his remark was not intended to be a factual statement, ..." do we tolerate? (Yes, that is an exact quote from right-wing ideologue and general ignoramus, John Kyl's staff.) At some point do we not simply brand these people as liars and ignore everything they have to say?

Lying - and make no mistake that is exactly what Smith has done - is dishonorable and it is shameful. Virtually everything she posts should be viewed with suspicion. That is the ultimate penalty for lying. They do not deserve your trust.

By all means continue on with your lie & we will continue to show you to be the fraud you are!

Isn't this kinda like the hoodlum that said: "I told you if you gave me the protection money, nobody would kick your ass. I never said they wouldn't burn down your house. So did anyone kick your ass you homeless sack-o-tea?"

Nice job Feisty and Walker - proving once again that you are totally clueless.

Go look up the term agency. Note what it says about statements made by the agents, and particularly the part about how those statements are binding on the principal.

So Romer said unemployment would stay below 8.5%. She said that in her capacity as Obama's agent. Ergo [fancy Latin for your big brained folk] Obama is deemed to have said it.

Bet part JAS1 is they think they are calling you out or making fun of you when in fact they just continue to call attention to their own ignorance.

Well done Feisty. And for everyone else - I'm on her "ignore" list so if no one comments on the fact that I just called her out again, as being as ignorant as a rock, then she can remain ignorantly blissful.

Feisty = ignorance.

Spanky: Bet part JAS1 is they think they are calling you out or making fun of you when in fact they just continue to call attention to their own ignorance

This is what it has come down to for the Left, just call anyone they disagree with "liars". To them, Obama, or any of his administration, never made the statement about their stimulus plan and unemployment. Which is odd seeing Obama/Romer and company produced the following graph. Please note that they estimated unemployment would be 6.9% by mid-2011. And what is it instead?

Source: http://www.economics21.org/blog/revisiting-unemployment-predictions

To the Left, that graph is called "a lie". Just the same way that thing in Libya is not a war, at least according to Obama. Just like Obama cares about the deficit, while spending $200 billion in money the country doesn't have - To the Left, that too is "a lie". Those trillion dollar deficits come from somewhere though Lefties. And to the Left, Obama didn't say it was lack of leadership that led him as a Senator to vote "No" on raising the debt ceiling in 2006. That too, to the Left, is a lie. And perhaps I quoted Obama wrong, and in fact he voted "Nay" on that vote. I guess the pompous one, David Walker, will explain how that now is also a lie.

The Left is out of arguments, they have nothing left. Now they just have to scream and shout and call other lairs. What a pathetic lot they are.

Sure, but this two dingbats don't even get that your were right and they are so gloroiusly wrong. That Walker guy is "LOUD AND PROUD" [seems to be a theme here now] that he "got you."

Argument and spin aside, this is pure ignorance, plain and simple.

Man, Feisty is having a really bed, horrible day.

Spanky: Argument and spin aside, this is pure ignorance, plain and simple.

This isn't about ignorance. Anyone with a working brain cell can read the unemployment estimate graph Romer put out. That excludes many of the bottom feeders here on the Left, but some of the higher ordered Lefties can, in time, figure it out.

What it is about is desperation. It's all about how in the world to make Obama look even somewhat competent. His record, it just isn't good, not at all. So what else can the Left do but attack, attack and demagogue. There is no way to buck Obama up on his record, clearly he is a failure. The last gasp of the Left is to tear down anyone that points out that he is a failure.

Source (again): http://www.economics21.org/blog/revisiting-unemployment-predictions

Spanky-

Nice job Feisty and Walker - proving once again that you are totally clueless.

Go look up the term agency. Note what it says about statements made by the agents, and particularly the part about how those statements are binding on the principal.

So Romer said unemployment would stay below 8.5%. She said that in her capacity as Obama's agent. Ergo [fancy Latin for your big brained folk] Obama is deemed to have said it.

Here's one for you super-ego your (Latin modi operandi for your hit jobs.) You are incredulous.

SEE you lie...

We think it's a big stretch to call an economic projection a "promise." The administration never characterized it that way and included plenty of disclaimers saying the predictions had "significant margins of error" and a higher degree of uncertainty due to a recession that is "unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity." And so we rule the statement by Cantor — and other Republicans who have said the same thing — Barely True.

That sure doesn't sound like a full-fledged promise to us.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/09/eric-cantor/Cantor-and-other-republicans-say-obama-promised-s/

==========================================

Barely true "≠" Absolutely true.

Also, GRAND POOBAH, you being in your microwave society want everything in 3 minutes.

The truth is, if you are capable of looking at the past seven or eight recessions that we’ve had since post World War in the post World War II era, we had, you know, in many cases, deep recessions; and then we tend to boom out of those recessions. The Reagan era is a perfect exampl. Would you call it worthy of an obama broken promise since we had 15% unemployment?

See no other recessions was triggered by financial crises.

If you don’t look to previous U.S. recessions; you look to previous financial crises that triggered recessions. O-kay?

Tidbit:

Tour the US Income Distribution

"The L-Curve"

http://www.lcurve.org/

That is a 30 mile stack of 100 dollar bills for the uber rich gotten off the backs of common people. Who can spend that much money?

Now tell me darling who's zooming who?

Well Bev. after all I am "incredulous."

And Jas1 can you just imagine how it's going to get when we hit 10% again later this summer?

I think Feisty and that Walker cat are "zooming."

Spanky: I think Feisty and that Walker cat are "zooming."

I won't comment on Walker, he's not here to defend himself.

I'm not clear on who/what exactly is a "Feisty".

Richard Engel pointed out on MTP that Romney referred to the people of Afghanstan as "Afghanis," when the correct term is "Afghans." Afghanis is the term for their currency.

A small mistake to be sure, but not if you are running for the position that will decide how to deal with them.

Say Amy would that be like saying there are 57 states?

Silly gaffes mean nothing.

Oh please Amy, that's about as petty as you can get. No different than Obama in 2009 telling a crowd of Austrians he didn't know a particular word in Austrian, when there's no such language.

Oh, I dunno. I guess I would expect someone who has closely followed events during the ten years to would know they are called Afghans. After all, it's only been one of our bigger wars.

Amy, with Romney's 'superior' economic background, we all know he'll govern to the currency only and not the people. That's what the party of Corporatists has become. At least they are honest about THAT much.

Amy B. Portland, ME,

Amy, in US dollars, how much is Obama spending a day on the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya?

Groucho Marx, you talk as if it was President Obama's idea to invade Iraq and leave Afghanistan before the job was done. You talk as if you are willing to watch Qaddafy retain control of his country and kill thousands of civilians to do it.

You don't think President Obama would prefer to be investing in rail and alternative energy in the US? Perhaps you haven't heard the Republicans ridicule his priorities.

Way less than was spent previously.

But Obama does get to loose or misplace $9 billion, right? After all, if you give the first guy a bye on it, shouldn't the second guy get one also?

Amy B. Portland, ME..

That was 2 1/2 years ago. The mulligan is over. It's now HIS choice to stay involved in these wars, especially Libya. No more excuses for the guy. If you say this is why we are doing this and then do it, the mission is over.

Groucho, before I forget, Meet The Press had a great debate on Sunday between Durbin and Lindsay Graham on this very topic. I think you would find it interesting. You can watch the broadcast on your computer:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032608/

Thx...Will do.