And the hit's ust keep on rolling when it comes to bat sh!t crazy Bachmann!

Let's recap some of Mrs. Bachmann's 'profound' beliefs shall we?

(1) BACHMANN WARNED 'THE LION KING' WAS GAY PROPAGANDA: At the November 2004 EdWatch National Education Conference, Bachmann said the "normalization" of homosexuality would lead to "desensitization": "Very effective way to do this with a bunch of second graders, is take a picture of 'The Lion King' for instance, and a teacher might say, 'Do you know that the music for this movie was written by a gay man?' The message is: I'm better at what I do, because I'm gay."

(2) BACHMANN CLAIMED ABOLISHING THE MINIMUM WAGE WOULD CREATE JOBS: While testifying in front of the Minnesota Senate in 2005, Bachmann said, "Literally, if we took away the minimum wage — if conceivably it was gone — we could potentially virtually wipe out unemployment completely because we would be able to offer jobs at whatever level." This isn't remotely true. Even simply reducing the minimum wage would, as Paul Krugman noted, "at best do nothing for employment; more likely it would actually be contractionary."

(3) BACHMANN CLAIMED THAT SCIENTISTS ARE SUPPORTERS OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN: During a 2006 debate, Bachmann said, "There are hundreds and hundreds of scientists, many of them holding Nobel Prizes, who believe in intelligent design." This was, and is, not true.

(4) BACHMANN CLAIMED TERRI SCHIAVO WAS 'HEALTHY': Not long after Terri Schiavo died, Bachmann said she would have voted for the Palm Sunday Compromise because Schiavo "was healthy. She had brain damage — there was brain damage, there was no question. But from a health point of view, she was not terminally ill." An autopsy found that Schiavo had suffered irreversible brain damage and her brain, said the medical examiner, was "profoundly atrophied."

(5) BACHMANN LIKENED VISITING IRAQ TO VISITING MALL OF AMERICA: In 2007, Bachmann returned from a junket to Iraq and told her colleagues, "[T]here's a commonality with the Mall of America, in that it's on that proportion. There's marble everywhere. The other thing I remarked about was there is water everywhere." As ThinkProgress documented at the time, the comparison was preposterous.

(6) BACHMANN CLAIMED THAT CARBON DIOXIDE IS 'HARMLESS': In 2008, a Stanford scientist revealed "direct links" between increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and "increases in human mortality" — globally, he found that as many as "20,000 air-pollution-related deaths per year per degree Celsius may be due to this greenhouse gas." The next year, Bachmann, who is not a scientist, said that "carbon dioxide is portrayed as harmful. But there isn't even one study that can be produced that shows that carbon dioxide is a harmful gas."

(7) BACHMANN CALLED FOR A CONGRESSIONAL WITCH HUNT: Pivoting off the news of Barack Obama's alleged relationship to former Weather Underground member William Ayers, and his former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Bachmann accused the candidate of having "anti-American views." She then suggested that Congressional liberals — including Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid — ought to be subject to "an exposé" by the media because of their views. "I think people would love to see like that," she told a stunned Chris Matthews.

(8) BACHMANN SUGGESTED GAY SINGER SHOULD REPENT AFTER GETTING CANCER: Bachmann saw Melissa Etheridge's cancer as a teachable moment: "Unfortunately she is now suffering from breast cancer, so keep her in your prayers," she said in November 2004. "This may be an opportunity for her now to be open to some spiritual things, now that she is suffering with that physical disease. She is a lesbian."

(9) BACHMANN BOASTED ABOUT BREAKING THE LAW: In advance of the 2010 national Census, Bachmann told The Washington Times that she would break the law by not completing the forms. "I know for my family, the only question we will be answering is how many people are in our home," she said. "We won't be answering any information beyond that, because the Constitution doesn't require any information beyond that."

(10) BACHMANN CLAIMED THAT GLENN BECK COULD SOLVE THE DEBT CRISIS: During a February trip to South Carolina, Bachmann told a South Carolina audience, "I think if we give Glenn Beck the numbers, he can solve this [the national debt]."

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/06/16/246618/bachmann-craziest-quotes/

Nothing says Presidential candidate quite like A ignorant, religous, homophobic fanatic!

Imagine the howls of bias and outrage from FR lefty liberals if Thomas or Scalia or Alito or Roberts were seen at a baseball game with Jim DeMint (or see the second to the last paragraph in post #1.0 above):

From Politico:

Spotted on the pitcher’s mound at Wrigley Field: Sonia Sotomayor.

The Supreme Court Justice threw out the first pitch before the New York Yankees beat the Chicago Cubs 4-3 on Saturday.

Bronx-born Sotomayor is a big Yankees fan, but she sported some home team apparel: a Cubs jersey with her name on the back.

Sotomayor took in the game alongside Illinois Sen. Dick Durbin.

Navy

Great way to start off the week exposing the hypocrites. I thought the right wing said Weiner had to go.; yet they still bring up him not having a letter of resignation.

Her what has to go the same old talking about putting america up for sell to the highest bidder

The plan is a disaster.

Bev : Great way to start off the wek

By quoting Think Progress' talking points? How is that great? Can't you just go there and read them for yourself?

Does Rick Perry Have a Jobs Problem?

http://swampland.time.com/2011/06/08/rick-perrys-job-creation-record/

The Republicans have pulled off a major (some would say cynical) miracle by convincing the majority of Americans that the way to jump-start the economy is to slash taxes on the wealthy and on cash-hoarding corporations while cutting benefits for millions of Americans. It's fun-house math that can't work; we'll need both tax increases and sensible entitlement cuts to get back on track. Yet surveys show 50% of Americans think that not raising the debt ceiling is a good idea — that you can somehow starve your way to economic growth.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2076568,00.html#ixzz1Pn6BCX00

American economist Paul Krugman has described Japan's lost decade as a liquidity trap, in which consumers and firms saved too much overall, causing the economy to slow. He explained how truly massive the asset bubble was in Japan by 1990, with a tripling of land and stock market prices during the prosperous 1980s. Japan's high personal savings rates, driven in part by the demographics of an aging population, enabled Japanese firms to rely heavily on traditional bank loans from supporting banking networks, as opposed to issuing stock or bonds via the capital markets to acquire funds. The cozy relationship of corporations to banks and the implicit guarantee of a taxpayer bailout of bank deposits created a significant moral hazard problem, leading to an atmosphere of crony capitalism and reduced lending standards. He wrote: "Japan's banks lent more, with less regard for quality of the borrower, than anyone else's. In so doing they helped inflate the bubble economy to grotesque proportions." The Bank of Japan began increasing interest rates in 1990 due in part to concerns over the bubble and in 1991 land and stock prices began a steep decline, within a few years reaching 60% below their peak.^[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29

Amazing how attended a baseball game is the same as attending secret meetings with power brokers that are funding the GOP/TP agenda and those same power brokers are giving kick backs to the SCOTUS Right wing fundraisers who are pretending the be SCOTUS Justices.

This is the best you guys got. You are sicker than I orginally thought - medic, medic Party down in aisle right.

From First Read:

BACHMANN:Roll Call looks at Michele Bachmann spending $3,400 in taxpayer money to help pay for a Tea Party event in DC. “The money came from the Members' taxpayer-funded office accounts, despite House rules prohibiting the use of these funds for political activities

For someone who HATES Gubment the way she does - is it any wonder this hypocrite has NO problem breaking the rules?

I saw Rick Perry on TV this morning. All I could think of was that this is the right-wing Obama. A politician with nothing to say but meaningless platitudes.

So why don't you goofy Libs just copy and paste a bunch of links to thinkprogress articles, and underneath just write "Ditto"? You're clogging up the internet with your full copy-and-pastes of that propaganda garbage.

Navy D - you can probably just hotkey doing this, you print the same articles over, and over, and over.

Well, well, well. AARP is now saying they're open to reductions in benefits for future Social Security recipients. "We want to see the system remain solvent," says their policy chief. You can knock me over with a feather. The grandaddy advocate of the welfare state for oldsters is actually coming to grips with the fiscal realities of our times.

Many of us on the right have explained the Social Security problem ad nauseum on this board, only to be met with the typical catcalls and viscous attacks from the delusional left. So how do you like us now? Don't bother to answer, we already know. A better question would be: what kind of stories will you people make up to defend your untenable position on this issue in the face of AARP's acknowledgement that we have a real problem on our hands? Maybe they'll toss out the one about how Social Security doesn't add one cent to the deficit/debt, that lie is always good for a few laughs.

Whatever, the left has been on the wrong side of this issue for quite a while, and now their position is weaker than it's ever been. The Social Security program WILL be restructured. As will Medicare and Medicaid. And the reason is so simple even a leftist should be able to understand it: these programs are fiscally unsustainable and we have no choice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/18/us/18aarp.html

There was an outbreak of truth last week in Washington, D.C. - shocking but very refreshing. Gates, Coburn, Van Hollen to name a few. Perhaps we are actually seeing a recognition of the fact that the problems facing the U.S. can no longer be subjected to partisan gamesmanship. We are in trouble and it is time for serious debate.

This debate is going to come largely from the left-center and the right-center. That is hardly a stunning revelation, but I raise the point as backdrop for what I believe is probably the most important guideline in this crucial discussion: Ignore the noise from the far right and the far left. IGNORE IT! It is dogma-based in the main and has no value. Those who feed from troughs of dogma food and fool-ade do not accept compromise. That means gridlock, it means vituperation, a widening of the gap between ideologies, and in the end - failure.

I offer this by way of illustration. Over the weekend, MSNBC ran a headline for an article that came from the New York Times: "Obama's views on gay marriage 'evolving'." We really know what that means. The President knows that his view on gay marriage is what we would expect from a Neanderthal, it is ridiculously antiquated and he must find a way to come out in support of gay marriage. For a guy who ran on hope and change, I find it rather distressing that he doesn't understand there is a component of courage required to effect change, but I digress.

Here is the first post in response to that article in its entirety; "The headline says it all about Obama. He is slowly evovling [sic] and someday may even be ready to leave the tree." This poster - Frank Gruden - is a bigot/racist. That is not a stretch, it's not trying to find something that isn't there. You have to be a complete idiot to miss what this guy is saying.

I called him on it: "Your comment is about as raw and disgusting as it gets. Anyone who denies that racism isn't an issue with a number of brainless Obama haters has only to look at your post to understand that you have absolutely zero intellectual objection to the President. It's about color."

But, oh no, out come the screamers in force. This isn't about racism or bigotry. Just because we don't like Obama doesn't mean we're racists. In fact, we love dark-skinned people.

That is a bald-faced lie. You know it, I know it, and anyone with an IQ above ten knows it. Here's the link for more of this BS denial, if you can tolerate it: http://politics.newsvine.com/_news/2011/06/19/6891679-obamas-views-on-gay-marriage-evolving.

No debate is possible when this kind of noise drowns out reasonable dialogue. No debate is possible when you have participants who have such a low-grade intellect that they can present lies as fact, and then say, "Well golly gosh, that really wasn't intended as a factual statement." Nothing like a good faith discussion, right? Send these dunces to a corner. Send these nasty, lying children to their rooms. The grown-ups have very serious work to do.

What, First Read...

Nothing on Keith Olbermann's big debut tonight?

With Michael Moore and Markos Moulitsas?

Ahhh...

Just like old times.

Those were the days...

"Does Rick Perry Have A Jobs Problem?"

No, Bev.

But by all accounts, including his own, President Obama certainly does.

I see we are back to the racist bashing of Justice Thomas again this week. It did not work before, and will not work now.

I guess that is all that is left for the Obama side. His communications aide was roundly scorned at NetRoots, and told something along the lines of 'we are sick of hearing about the Ledbetter act'. (please note the single quotes- that is not an exact quote).

Then, there was Obama's incredible weekend.

In good news, he and Boehner bested Biden and Kasich in golf. That is all the good news.

Once again displaying his utter cluelessness on the economy, Obama blamed ATM machines and airport kiosks for high unemployment. Yup, that's right- technology that has been used for more than ten years is derailing all his economic plans. I know it was said late last week, but he reiterated on Saturday, and seemed oblivious to the derision it engendered.

Nothing new there, because he also violated the War Powers Act as of Sunday- but claimed, over the advice of both Justice and Pentagon lawyers, that HE was right, and they wrong. Heck, if he says it, it must be true, right?

Then, there is this news- which NBC probably will not touch
http://www.dailytech.com/US+GOA+40+Percent+of+Defense+Supply+Chain+Damaged+by+Chinese+Parts/article21937.htm

How can even the most ardent Obama supporter defend sourcing materials used by our troops in China- not just parts that are either counterfeit or out of spec, but DoD computer chips? Does anyone in that administration understand the potential for espionage inherent in that system of procurement?

Here is a quick and easy way to create jobs- enforce rules to manufacture all strategic defense materials HERE. Go ahead and buy toasters, toilet seats, and dishes at Walmart- but war materials and computer components must come from these shores.

Use some of the expanded federal workforce to inspect plants to make sure the stuff is manufactured where the defense suppliers say it is being manufactured.

Now, why do I think none of this will be done?

Because Obama will do what he always does when anything negative is revealed.

He will ignore it,. What is worse- his sycophants in the media will ignore it, as well.

JoAnna:

Navy D - you can probably just hotkey doing this, you print the same articles over, and over, and over.

And it never ceases to amaze me how you say the same things, over, and over, and over, and think you're saying something that contributes to the discourse.

David:

That is a bald-faced lie. You know it, I know it, and anyone with an IQ above ten knows it.

Well, maybe, but then how do you expect ME to know it? Just ask JoAnna.

Oh, joy, it's Monday at First Read.

Oh, and one more thing. I guess just the thought of all the good that Scott Walker and the Republicans are doing in Wisconsin isn't enough to send those job numbers soaring.

http://host.madison.com/ct/business/biz_beat/article_c4a6be16-9859-11e0-b3a2-001cc4c03286.html

Just like everything that happened after President Obama took office is his fault, then I guess this one's on Scott Walker.

Whatever, the left has been on the wrong side of this issue for quite a while, and now their position is weaker than it's ever been. The Social Security program WILL be restructured. As will Medicare and Medicaid. And the reason is so simple even a leftist should be able to understand it: these programs are fiscally unsustainable and we have no choice.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/18/us/18aarp.html

_________________________________________

The best part about this subject is that since it's in the NY Times, lefty liberals are required to believe it.

LOL!!!

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Everything in your post is based upon assumption and your opinion and the opinion of that subjective and unbiased group at Think Progress. There isn't a fact here.

The New York Times reports on Justice Clarence Thomas’ longstanding — and highly fruitful — relationship with a leading conservative donor named Harlan Crow. Crow has donated nearly $5 million to Republican candidates and conservative organizations, including $100,000 to the anti-John Kerry Swift Boat Veterans for Truth — and he has also been very generous to the Thomas family.

Really, just how has he been generous, any facts? The donor has a friend who has a friend. Hey Obama has a friend named Ayers, should we assume anything from that?

"This is one biased and corrupt Justice that has no credibility or moral standards to be sitting on the bench of the highest court in the land."

Why? Cause he attended a fund raiser? Didn't Obama have a secret meeting with Democratic donors in the WH last week? We don't know what it was about but let's assume it was against the law. Why not, your post assumes the SC justices did.

"The SCOTUS is nothing more than another GOP/TP political “Activist Group” listening to Wall Street, Big Business and the Millionaires/Billionaires at the he!! with the rest of the Country (namely the Middle Class and Low Income Americans). This is not what I defending and it breaks my heart to see just how low we continue to fall in our political environment."

Nothing wrong with this giant leap of faith is there. Your opinion of course based on facts and a Think Progress article.

Great way to provide unbiased and informative information.

njnbnj: Once again displaying his utter cluelessness on the economy, Obama blamed ATM machines and airport kiosks for high unemployment.

Obama is going after the Amish vote.

Bev:

How true. Rachael had a great piece on Perry's lies Friday. She compared his untruths to a tube of "Baloney".

Perry has been against the Stimulus from day one but took $6.4 Billion from President Obama and what did he do with it. He used it to balance the State budget and then claim he did it not the stimulus money. Same thing with T-Paw. They take the money, use it in ways it was not intended and then claim how great they are. Hypocrites all of them and America is starting to wise up to their arrogant lies.

Texas has more people working at minimum wage or below than any other State and 23 other states have a lower unemployment rate. In fact many States the unemployment rate is coming down (very slowly) but Texas is going up.

See the Rachael Maddow piece.

I see that the GOP/TP cannot refute the facts so they again attack the source. But they have no problem quoting the Cato Institute or the Heritage Foundation that is so far right they have trouble stopping trying to spin around like a top.

This is what happens when you have no ideas.

STILL WAITING FOR ONE OF YOU TO TELL US WHAT THE GOP/TP HAS DONE FOR THIS COUNTRY TO MOVE IT FORWARD FOR THE LAST 2+ YEARS. HELLO, WHAT EXACTLY HAVE YOU THE GOP/TP DONE TO MOVE THIS COUNTRY FORWARD IN THE LAST 2 YEARS PLUS. WE ARE STILL WAITING.

More states require ID to vote; How's that benefiting America?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-19-states-require-voter-ID_n.htm?csp=34news

As with virtually every awful thing that has happened to the U.S. Reagan, I will try to tie together how the Voter ID Law effects minorities; as well as women; the youth, Hispanics, Native Americans, Asians the elderly, and veterans both politically and economically.

Thirteen states now have laws requiring and/or requesting voters to present a photo ID in order to vote (Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin).1

Sixteen other states require voters to show either Photo ID or some other form of identification in order to vote

At least 37 states are considering or have recently considered voter ID and/or proof of citizenship legislation.

Many citizens lack photo ID, especially lower income and racial minorities. A 2006 nationwide study of voting-age citizens found that twenty-five percent of African-American voting-age citizens have no current government-issued photo ID, compared to eight percent of white voting-age citizens, and that voting age citizens nationwide earning less than $35,000 annually were more than twice as likely to lack a government issued ID than those earning above $35,000 a year.4

Photo ID laws are unconstitutional poll taxes if they require citizens to purchase ID in order to vote. Poll taxes were used for decades to discriminate against poor and minority citizens until they were banned by the 24th Amendment and decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court.

A federal court found in 2005 that a Georgia photo ID law which did not provide for free identification was an unconstitutional poll tax and violated the fundamental right to vote because “requiring voters to purchase a Photo ID card effectively places a cost on the right to vote.” 5 The court also found that requiring citizens to sign an affidavit declaring themselves as indigents in order to waive the voter ID fee violated Twenty-fourth Amendment because “[a]ny material requirement imposed upon a voter solely because of the voter’s refusal to pay a poll tax violates the Twenty-fourth Amendment.”

The Supreme Court recognized in the Crawford case that photo ID laws may create unconstitutional burdens when they are applied to particular classes of citizens even if they are generally constitutional. The Crawford decision gave as examples “elderly persons born out of state,” “persons who because of economic or other personal limitations may find it difficult to secure a copy of their birth certificate” or other documents needed for photo ID, homeless people, and people with a religious objection to being photographed. 7

In addition to potential federal law problems, voter ID laws may violate state constitutional protections of the right to vote.

States that have recently enacted voter ID laws must make timely and effective accommodations for citizens who face significant barriers in obtaining identification to avoid litigation.

http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/admin/voting_rights/documents/files/State-of-Voter-ID-laws-for-web.pdf

I suggest you look at this map it may be coming next to your state.

http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/admin/site/images/files/Assault-on-Voting-Map-6-16-11.jpg

Feisty, Great list of Bachmann's views for all to ponder.

I would add:

She stated that "God focused on her campaign like a laser beam" when she was elected to Congress in 2006.

She was first, the best cheerleader for Bush. At the 2007 SUTU speech shewas caught on camera almost falling out her seat, not letting go of GW's hand. Funny comment by Tucker Carlson in showing this you tube video.

In 2007, she was a great supporter of Ron Paul. She supported him at a alternative rally at the Repub. national convention in St. Paul.

Now she is the standard bearer of the Tea Party group and the religious right.

Source:Smart Politics Blog

AM: And it never ceases to amaze me how you say the same things, over, and over, and over, and think you're saying something that contributes to the discourse.

So put me on Ignore. God knows we all put up with your daily bashing of Scott Walker.

Joe:

The best part about this subject is that since it's in the NY Times, lefty liberals are required to believe it.

Okay, well then, how about THIS one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/business/20tax.html?_r=1&hp

Under the proposal, known as a repatriation holiday, the federal income tax owed on such profits returned to the United States would fall to 5.25 percent for one year, from 35 percent. In the short term, the measure could generate tens of billions in tax revenues as companies transfer money that would otherwise remain abroad, and it could help ease the huge budget deficit.

Corporations and their lobbyists say the tax break could resuscitate the gasping recovery by inducing multinational corporations to inject $1 trillion or more into the economy, and they promoted the proposal as “the next stimulus” at a conference last Wednesday in Washington.

“For every billion dollars that we invest, that creates 15,000 to 20,000 jobs either directly or indirectly,” Jim Rogers, the chief of Duke Energy, said at the conference. Duke has $1.3 billion in profits overseas.

But that’s not how it worked last time. Congress and the Bush administration offered companies a similar tax incentive, in 2005, in hopes of spurring domestic hiring and investment, and 800 took advantage.

Though the tax break lured them into bringing $312 billion back to the United States, 92 percent of that money was returned to shareholders in the form of dividends and stock buybacks, according to a study by the nonpartisan National Bureau of Economic Research.

LoL And good morning, Joe. ;-)

JoAnna:

So put me on Ignore. God knows we all put up with your daily bashing of Scott Walker.

Oh, you are just TOO silly. How else would I get my daily jollies?

Jon Stewart Appears on FOX News; Calls FOX News Viewers Misinformed

Stewart: I’m given credibility in this world because of the disappointment the public has in what the news media does.

Wallace: I don’t think our viewers are the least bit disappointed in us. I think our viewers think finally they’re getting someone who tells the other side of the story.

Stewart: And in polls who is the most consistently misinformed media viewers? Who’s consistently misinformed? Fox. Fox viewers.

Wallace then changed the subject.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_06/the_most_consistently_misinfor030360.php

Ha Ha , Fox is always evasive of the truth.

Do ya'll remember that time Jon Stewart called out CNBC's Rick Santelli for those loser homeowners are going to get bailed out?

Jon Stewart called out CNBC’s Rick Santelli for calling the American homeowners who could no longer afford to pay their mortgages due to the subprime lending crisis a bunch of “losers,” and for screaming that he didn’t want to have to subsidize the mortgages for these losers who have, like, a second loser bathroom in their loser houses right at the corner of Main and Loser Streets. Essentially, pointed out how the entire CNBC network was wrong in its assessment of the stability and solvency of such Wall Street giants as Bear Stearns, Merrill Lynch, Bank of America, and Lehman Brothers .

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-march-4-2009/cnbc-financial-advice

That was so funny to see Jon Stewart make CNBC Bear the brunt of truth.

Don't forget the time Jon Stewart called Tucker Carslon a dickhead.

Jon Stewart, to Tucker Carlson…"You know what's interesting, though? You're as big a dick on your show as you are on any show."

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/bljonstewartcrossfire.htm

Now that is what I call fair and balanced; Kudos to Jon Stewart. After all, somebody needed to let Fox's audience know they are being duped.

I still maintain the USA should foolow Canada’s lead and dump FOX for lies and misleading stories

Navy and Feisty,

Looks like you both had an arts and crafts session on the Think Progress site.

Cut and past and more cut and paste and no original thoughts.

Not even on topic.

Oh goody, another cut and paste from: Mr. Michael Linden, Director of Tax and Budget Policy at the Center for American Progress Action Fund. Lets read what he reported.

AM: Oh, you are just TOO silly. How else would I get my daily jollies?

Probably by looking in the mirror.

Thanks Navy for bringing up Judge Thomas and his Tea Bagger wife...

It looks like Justice Clarence Thomas has a bit of a memory problem, and when combined with Ginni Thomas' lobbying efforts, a picture emerges of a deep ethical problem corrupting the highest court in the country.

The video above outlines Virginia "Ginni" Thomas' relationship to Liberty Central and Liberty Consulting. They suggest that Liberty Consulting is a front for Liberty Central, but I'm not sure about that, since the two organizations still keep separate websites, and one is for-profit while the other isn't.

What is clear, however, is that there is direct intent to cloak both operations behind a veil of secrecy while one of our Supreme Court justices takes up questions that deal directly with the very same issue. That's problem #1.

Problem #2 is a little stickier. While we knew that Justice Thomas did not disclose his wife's income from the Heritage Foundation and Liberty Central for the past six years, as was required, it seems that non-disclosure stretches back farther than that.

For twenty years, Clarence Thomas has not disclosed his wife's income, nor the source of that income. Twenty years.

Up to now, Justice Thomas has simply shrugged off his failure to disclose his wife's income and sources as a mere oversight, despite the fact that he "forgot" for 20 years. But what if it were intentional? ProtectOurElections.org has a theory that he didn't disclose her income or source because he might have been challenged for recusal due to conflict of interest. In fact, from 1993-1998, Virginia Thomas worked for Dick Armey.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=16&ved=0CDYQFjAFOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcrooksandliars.com%2Fkaroli%2Fclarence-thomas-forgot-20-years-disclosure-&ei=zFD_TbrxG4b20gGrv92NAw&usg=AFQjCNEL48qbFalY1CAURgL8Jt2fvnOrOg

If a sitting SCOTUS can't remember to do what is required by law, WHO can you trust?

Whoopsy!

PS: Thanks Northstar! Good you see you here this morning! Thanks again for the synopsis of Bachmann over the weekend!

no joe, no bo, nj

I see we are back to the racist bashing of Justice Thomas again this week. It did not work before, and will not work now.

No jo, we don't care if it works or not, Clarence the nasty man Thomas is his own worse emeny. in due time the whole world will find out that he is the worse excuse for a justice ever.

its funny that you a former progressive who followed the teaching of MLK, is defending a turn coat uncle tom who during his conformation hearing threw his mother and sister under the bus, along with the hard work, Thrugood Marshall did forcing school integration. i hope your proud, a former school teacher. thank to thrugood Marshall your class rooms were integrated and Clarence Thomas was able to attend a non black college, something Marshall could not do.but according the Thomas, in his writing in a kansas school case it has not donem what it was suppose to do so he wants to get rid of it, again No Jo based upon that he is a trun coat uncle tom, and no matter what you say, the whole world knows this.

how is your angel doing?

JoAnna:

Probably by looking in the mirror.

At least I can see a reflection.

He may well be going after the Amish vote, JS1. I do not think he will succeed, however- he has a tendency to do as much to alienate voting blocs as to endear himself to them.

The membership of the National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials are seriously upset with Obama. Seems that, for the third time, he blew them off- after promising, when he appeared as a candidate, to return as president.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57313.html

Never mind- he will probably show up next year, begging for their endorsement, and their votes. It remains to be seen if it will be forthcoming.

Seems they have some issues with his record.

Along with most voters.

Northstar-3473315...

Great post Feisty? It's a copy and paste of Bachmann quotes someone else compiled, not her. It does have the original words "bat sh!t crazy Bachmann!" and "ignorant, religous, homophobic fanatic"

Good read.

...

More states require ID to vote; How's that benefiting America?

I would agree with you but I am also told that there are 12M or more immigrants that are here illegally. Now I don't know if they try to vote or not but if there are that many then it seems reasonable to me that only citizens should be allowed to vote. If there are not that many then there is no crisis in immigration and they should be encouraged to return to their country of origin. You can't have it both ways.

I do believe the onus is on the the state to provide free photo id to the poor.

So why don't you goofy Libs just copy and paste a bunch of links to thinkprogress articles, and underneath just write "Ditto"? You're clogging up the internet with your full copy-and-pastes of that propaganda garbage.

Navy D - you can probably just hotkey doing this, you print the same articles over, and over, and over.

We have every right to post what we want and how we want it. Your constant rhetoric trying to tell us what to say and how is both stupid and repugnat - we will not let keyboard bullies tell us what to write, how to write and what sources we can use.

You cannot refute the truth so you try to intimidate people. Well is does not work.

You have been exposed and as a liar and fraud on this board and what you have to say carries NO weight at all.

But keep trying, that is your right just as I am goingto keep posting what I want as that is my right and you cannot take it away no matter how hard you try.

Woim,

It is comical to read your post about "cutting and pasting". I guess if you cannot deny the truth of the info provided, and are unable to add anything of value yourself, the next best thing is just to change the subject, eh?

So transparently pathetic.

Now, JoAnna-

Occasionally Navy will offer up a diversion from his usual laundry list.

Remember his "conservatives are no better than Nazis" phase?

That was certainly thinking outside of the box...

And, a terrific example of Navy's tolerance for political dissent and diversity of thought...offering valuable context to any of his posts, don't you think?

njnbnj: He may well be aging after the Amish vote, JS1. I do not think he will succeed, however- he has a tendency to do as much to alienate voting blocs as to endear himself to them

It's starting to slip for Obama. He's in full campaign mode already, 17 months before the election. He might as well be, he's frozen in his tracks on everything that matters to the country. Budget? What budget? The Democrats have not passed a budget bill in over 2 years. Obama's joke of a budget in January was followed by him giving an "budget outline speech" in April, one that he hasn't followed up on. Debt ceiling, deficit spending, unemployment, on and on it goes for Obama. He and the Democrats have done absolutely nothing as far as any proposals, or God-forbid, any legislation that can pass in the Senate.

It's just not "Cool" to be an Obama supporter anymore. Not when people out of work cannot find jobs, and people that do work are threatened everyday with their termination. The Loons on the left will support Obama forever, they have no sense or reason or thought, only hero worship. The other 95% of the country is catching on to this loser in the White House. Fake, phony, and fraud. That's Obama. It was fun to vote for him, but now we live with the consequences.

AM: At least I can see a reflection

Before, or after the mirror cracks?

Bev and IR ,,

I'd love to ask you questions about what you posted and wrote but unfortunately I can't. Just some more cut and pastes to support your ideas? If you have any ideas, thoughts, comments or witty retorts, please write them, in your own words.

This is a blog, not an arts and crafts class. Your ideas. Do you have any?

I offer this by way of illustration. Over the weekend, MSNBC ran a headline for an article that came from the New York Times: "Obama's views on gay marriage 'evolving'." We really know what that means. The President knows that his view on gay marriage is what we would expect from a Neanderthal, it is ridiculously antiquated and he must find a way to come out in support of gay marriage. For a guy who ran on hope and change, I find it rather distressing that he doesn't understand there is a component of courage required to effect change,

Yeah right. Another example of a politician evolving by reading the polls (see example of Mitt Romney and abortion for Republican primary). So the President sees the country is moving towards favoring Gay Marriage and so his position is evolving. Another fine example of Leading from Behind.

BTW. I've been for Gay Marriage for as long as I remember. I still don't understand how two gay people wanting to marry affects me or my marriage.

We have every right to post what we want and how we want it.

I laugh SO hard when they can't refute the facts & instead attack the source!

Scares the cr@p out of them that people are discovering about the baggers & birthers agenda is for this country!

Ever notice how they don't WHINE about the right wingers that cut & paste from oh say, POLITICO? lol

Sad they're as impotent as they are... really...

Keep on... keeping on cut & pasting my friend...

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with asking for ID in order to vote, but I am glad that the democrats are taking up the charge on it. It really reinforces the common belief that democrats are in favor of voter fraud.

Same day registration is another vehicle for fraud. Individuals can show up at multiple locations, register, and vote. Asking election officials to certify eligibility under those circa,stances is akin to having your boss dump 50,000 new purchase orders on your desk at 4:55p.m., with the demand that they be processed before five o'clock- complete with credit checks.

Then again, democrats KNOW that- which is why they so strongly advocate it.

Mixed Bag

"Does Rick Perry Have A Jobs Problem?"

No, Bev.

But by all accounts, including his own, President Obama certainly does.

Maybe you should try reading the article before mouthing off with a snotty comment.

http://swampland.time.com/2011/06/08/rick-perrys-job-creation-record/

But Perry will come under scrutiny for the massive, largely unsupervised funds that he has used to lure businesses to Texas. Various investigations have shown that these funds have moved millions of dollars to Perry donors and to companies associated with individuals nominated by Perry to run the funds. At the same time, the companies subsidized by the funds have shown only modest success in creating jobs.

...

Fellow Republicans have been critical. Kay Bailey Hutchison, a GOP Senator from Texas, called for an independent audit of the TEF and said of the investigations into its performance, “Texans have been offered a disturbing glance into the activities of the Texas Enterprise Fund. For the first time, we have learned of taxpayer-funded contracts being canceled, changed to redefine ‘success’ and actually sending our money overseas to create jobs. This is unacceptable.”

Alan, NJ

I saw Rick Perry on TV this morning. All I could think of was that this is the right-wing Obama. A politician with nothing to say but meaningless platitudes.

That proves it you have been duped by the Right wing Shysters (extreme nutjobs) calling them self leaders.

What is this proposal your Gov. Fat Boy Christie has with the other governors if nothing more than a reflection of the cross-eyed Gov.. Snot Walker?

I see that Wisconsin is open for business being touted by Gov. Snot Walker. That is not business; it is rather a land grab for the Koch Brothers.

Just think your Gov.Fat Boy Christie wants to follow the cross-eyed badger in Wisconsin.

Haven't you had enough of the same old sh!t? Nothing is changing in the GOP/T-BAGGER mind. Change means you've been through that. You GOP/t-baggers haven't changed.

MB: Now, JoAnna-

Occasionally Navy will offer up a diversion from his usual laundry list.

Remember his "conservatives are no better than Nazis" phase?

You are correct MB. It's best Navy D stays in his copy-and-paste comfort zone. He tends to fly off into the weeds when he freelances.

Houston-

President Obama doesn't have a jobs problem?

He thinks he does.

Alan, NJ

Yeah right. Another example of a politician evolving by reading the polls (see example of Mitt Romney and abortion for Republican primary). So the President sees the country is moving towards favoring Gay Marriage and so his position is evolving. Another fine example of Leading from Behind.

No Alan, its called listening to others no matter what you really believe, and that is a marriage is between a man AND woman. Just because he is black and a minority, does not mean he will fall lock and step with everything liberal want. OK!!!! Most black believe a marriage is between a MAN and A WOMAN.

Has anyone on the blog ever actually known someone without a photo ID? I have worked with countless agencies for the underpriviledged, homeless (not of the permanent status), food banks etc and I havent ever met anyone, including those I suspected of being here illegally, that didnt have some form of picture ID. Maybe its because I live in Illinois where even the illegal aliens can get driver's licenses. This issue is a red herring and democrats should want to avoid fraud too. Its ridiculous to say that it will dampen voter turnout for the young (what young over 18 doesnt have a driver's license or some form of ID just so they can get into a bar or drink). Maybe I work with the wrong minority but I just dont personally know any African American or latino that doesnt have a form of ID. Arguments against this are just partisan ridiculous and without any factual foundation. Just saying it doesnt make it true. We require an ID to drink, drive and pay with a credit card but for the most important civic task in this country you want to say no anyone can just walk up and claim who they are and vote? Come on

Houston: But Perry will come under scrutiny for the massive, largely unsupervised funds that he has used to lure businesses to Texas. Various investigations have shown that these funds have moved millions of dollars to Perry donors

Think Obama will come under scrutiny for moving massive and large amounts of money to the unions, like he did for the Stimulus and like he did when he bailed out GM? The unions of course are one of the biggest donors to Obama. Various investigations show that the labor unions and the state union workers benefited from each while the taxpayer picked up the tab for all.

Alan:

I do believe the onus is on the the state to provide free photo id to the poor.

This whole voter ID thing is nothing short ridiculous. The push for voter ID legislation is nothing more than either (1) total paranoia on the part of right-wingers, or (2) a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise voters, for which providing free IDs would not serve the purpose. Which is probably why you don't hear it proposed much.

Even without free IDs, the new voter ID law will cost more than $7 million to implement this in Wisconsin.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_102393ae-86fe-11e0-9bb6-001cc4c002e0.html

According to the link below, that's about $775,000 per case of voter fraud.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/mailbag/article_6470807d-7442-5a05-b10d-844d171c8ae0.html

What was the total number of voter fraud cases looked into by our state attorney general? I believe around 11. If that and the $8.5 million for the implementation of the voter ID law are accurate, Wisconsin will spend close to $775,000 for each of those fraud cases. Wow, talk about bang for the buck!

Now imagine what THAT will do to the costs.

But why bother at all? The kind of voter fraud that IDs are intended to prevent occurs in only the tiniest number of voter fraud cases.

Given that, the real intent of the law becomes pretty transparent.

JoAnna:

Before, or after the mirror cracks?

No, no, no, no, no ... it's my SINGING that cracks the mirror.

What is it about the practice of 'cut-and-paste' that upsets the paid posters so much, anyway??

Mixed Bag

Houston-

President Obama doesn't have a jobs problem?

Yes. So does Perry, according to the article you refuse to acknowledge. But playing dumb won't make Perry's problem go away.

What is this proposal your Gov. Fat Boy Christie has with the other governors if nothing more than a reflection of the cross-eyed Gov.. Snot Walker?

Care to elaborate? I have no idea what proposal in particular you are refering to. BTW ctrl-b will turn the bold font off.

Anna Molly-

Your speculation about intent aside...do you really object to prospective voters providing proof of identity?

I mean...simply offering proof that voters are who they say they are?

I can't see how that does anything but improve the integrity of the voting system and foster trust in the validity of election results.

JoAnnaSmith1:

Think Obama will come under scrutiny for moving massive and large amounts of money to the unions, like he did for the Stimulus and like he did when he bailed out GM?

Gee, I didn't know Bobby Jindall and Slick Rick Perry were union bosses. It was Republican governors like them whose states got much of the money, allowing Jindall and others to pose for the cameras with a giant check like from Publishers Clearing House at ground-breaking ceremonies.

The unions of course are one of the biggest donors to Obama. Various investigations show that the labor unions and the state union workers benefited from each while the taxpayer picked up the tab for all.

Obama also gets substantial corporate donations, which many on the left dislike intensely. At least there are counter-balancing influences on him from both sides. There's no such balance on any Republican candidates. Big corporations bought the GOP off and it stays bought. No union is ever going to pry it away from its corporate paymasters.

DBO:

What is it about the practice of 'cut-and-paste' that upsets the paid posters so much, anyway??

Envy. They're all under physicians' orders not to play with scissors.

Bev And Feisty, what progress did the Windy City's Mayor make on the city's finances over the weekend?

Houston-

The context of my original comment was that, whatever Rick Perry's problems with jobs are, they pale by comparison to President Obama's, don't they?

I mean...surely even you can see that, particularly when President Obama can as well?

The principal architects of the Obama economy and its jobs policies; Christina Romer, Larry Summers, Austan Goolsby...all gone, Houston. Based on results produced, perfectly understandable.

It is what it is.

US Navy

Your article is stretching. Of course that is expected when you quote lying left wing funded sources.

As it has been pointed out, and the rabids on the left keep ignoring, this matter has been investigated and Thomas has been cleared of any wrong doing.

I wonder how many from the left will call for Kegan to recuse herself when it is time?

Though the tax break lured them into bringing $312 billion back to the United States, 92 percent of that money was returned to shareholders in the form of dividends and stock buybacks, according to a study by the nonpartisan National Bureau of Economic Research.

LoL And good morning, Joe. ;-)

___________________________________________

AM: I love it when companies that I own individually or in mutual funds raise their dividends. I'm almost happy to pay that 15% tax. Here's the problem: The US is one of the few industrialized countries that applies its corporate taxes to a corporations worldwide income. The only other large economy to do so is South Korea. All the other major industrialized countries apply their corporate taxes to profits in their own country only. If a German company has an Irish subsidiary, the sub only pays Irish taxes on the sub's Irish profits. If the company brings those profits back to Germany there is no German tax on those profits. If a US company has an Irish sub it pays Irish taxes PLUS US taxes if it brings those profits back to the US. The US is the outlier.

Anna Molly-

Your speculation about intent aside...do you really object to prospective voters providing proof of identity?

I mean...simply offering proof that voters are who they say they are?

I can't see how that does anything but improve the integrity of the voting system and foster trust in the validity of election results.

A red herring that is unworthy of you, Bag Boy. The "integrity" of the system ain't broke, and you can't prove that it is. Why go to all the expense of "fixing" something as to which the lack of "integrity" hasn't been shown, especially when the cure will be worse than the disease, in that it will have the likely effect of disenfranchising many, many more legitimate voters than cases of voter fraud that it prevents?

You know the "why" as well as I do.

And do you really suppose that someone won't find a way in about 30 seconds to game the voter ID system?

Please. What else is free market capitalism for, after all? Be careful what you wish for, Bag Boy.

Houston: Gee, I didn't know Bobby Jindall and Slick Rick Perry were union bosses.

You didn't answer the question Houston. You say Perry will come under scrutiny for allegedly funneling a few million to his donors. Do you think Obama will come under the same scrutiny, for funneling hundred's of billions of taxpayer funded dollars to the unions?

This whole voter ID thing is nothing short ridiculous. The push for voter ID legislation is nothing more than either (1) total paranoia on the part of right-wingers, or (2) a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise voters, for which providing free IDs would not serve the purpose. Which is probably why you don't hear it proposed much.

So you don't think have 12M+ people in the country may affect the elections? Do you think it reasonable to try and protect against such a possibility? Although there were only 11 investigations/prosecutions does that mean it doesn't happen? How many speeding drivers get prosecuted to the number that actually speed? All your highlighting is that it "could" have a low detection rate. Look at you latest recall efforts. When the signatures from both sides were actually examined what was the rate of false information discovered?

To the second part of your statement, why would providing free IDs still cause legitimate voters to be disenfranchised?

You are correct MB. It's best Navy D stays in his copy-and-paste comfort zone. He tends to fly off into the weeds when he freelances.

You guys crack me up. You must all live under the same slimy smelly rock. No ideas at all, just more snark from the Queen of Fraud. You cannot defend your lies, you cannot refute what has been written and you still have not told us what it is that you have done to move this country forward over the last 2 years. We are still waiting.

In my opinion you are just another impotent person who got all decked out for the party in your expensive gowns and jewelry and nobody noticed nor cared.

But keep trying I am having fun watching you make a fool of yourself every day.

Kirk,

The problem is that some states want to exclude a picture college ID as identification for voting. Voter fraud is not a problem in the United States; however, voter suppression is the real problem, such as Florida in 2000.

Bill, Fairfax and Joe in Albany:

I Know you guys. You were the ones who were always picked last in team sports. You were the guys everyone hated to have on their team. You're the guys who could barely put one foot in front of the other without tripping. You got tired of always being picked last, and so, you quit. You gave up. You never learned how to lose with dignity, and you sure as hell never learned how to win graciously.

AARP comes out and acknowledges the obvious. Social Security must be on the table. It must be reformed. For you this is an opportunity to gloat. You don't see progress. You see some sort of personal victory. Team America just got stronger, but you don't even notice. Team America just added a power player to the roster. But this is about you.

Hey, you finally got something right. Others are making a painful admission. Yes, we are going to have to overhaul Social Security. Team America moves forward, and you gloat. You don't have the grace to say, welcome aboard. No, you want to rub someone's face in the dirt. No compromise for you. You knew it all along, all the more reason to set your feet in concrete and imagine that you got EVERYTHING right.

If you just keep screaming that tax cuts are the answer, you'll still be right. It doesn't matter that your own coaches admit the total bankruptcy of that idea. Nope, to capitulate means losing, and someone who never gets picked to be on a team isn't going to tolerate that.

Enjoy the gloating. Tomorrow you'll be back riding the pine. There is no Far Right Field position.

Joe:

AM: I love it when companies that I own individually or in mutual funds raise their dividends. I'm almost happy to pay that 15% tax.

Sure. Who doesn't love it? Beats the heck out of working for a living and paying 33 percent.

And that's my point. It doesn't create jobs, Joe, but THAT'S how you folks like to sell it.

Just like my investment advisor telling me gleefully last week that we don't need to create jobs in this country to do well in the stock market. In fact -- and I knew this all along -- those two concepts are in many ways contradictory to each other.

I'm just pointing that out for my own amusement, so that people like you see that people like me aren't always fooled by what people like you say.

drive-by-observer

What is it about the practice of 'cut-and-paste' that upsets the paid posters so much, anyway??

How about paraphrasing an article so it gives the appearance that you've read it? How about an original thought on a topic for discussion? How about an original idea?

I don't need to hear what Think Progress published. I want to hear and read what the FR readers poster's have to say in their own words.

This is a full page filled with articles from sites I can visit on my own. Then you have comments complimenting each other on the great job they did at arts and crafts class. Everyone gets a gold star if there were no paper cuts.

Your aim is true, JoAnna.

JoAnnaSmith1

You didn't answer the question Houston. You say Perry will come under scrutiny for allegedly funneling a few million to his donors. Do you think Obama will come under the same scrutiny, for funneling hundred's of billions of taxpayer funded dollars to the unions?

I tend to ignore "when did you stop beating your wife" questions that have a false premise, which is what you posed. Your assertion that Obama has funneled "hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to unions is not only a big fat lie, it's a stupid one on the magnitude of the bogus story Michele Bachmann bought into about Obama's trip to Asia costing 200 million a day. Hundreds of BILLIONS funneled to unions?

And, by the way, _I— did not say that Perry funneled millions to his donors. The Time article said that's what investigations suggest. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison seems to think Perry has a problem, too.

Alan, NJ

More states require ID to vote; How's that benefiting America?

I would agree with you but I am also told that there are 12M or more immigrants that are here illegally. Now I don't know if they try to vote or not but if there are that many then it seems reasonable to me that only citizens should be allowed to vote. If there are not that many then there is no crisis in immigration and they should be encouraged to return to their country of origin. You can't have it both ways.

I do believe the onus is on the the state to provide free photo id to the poor.

Since you feel that the onus is on the the state to provide free photo id to the poor; it might interest you the idea is to not allow minorities to vote. Connect the dots. Republicans aree giving bail out money back because they don't to match the funds.

Why?
Here is why...
1. The 2008 electorate was 74% white, plus 13% black and 9% Latino. The 2010 numbers were 78, 10 and 8. So it was a considerably whiter electorate.

2. In 2008, 18-to-29-year-olds made up 18% and those 65-plus made up 16%. Young people actually outvoted old people. This year, the young cohort was down to 11%, and the seniors were up to a whopping 23% of the electorate. That's a 24-point flip.
3. The liberal-moderate-conservative numbers in 2008 were 22%, 44% and 34%. Those numbers for yesterday were 20%, 39% and 41%. A big conservative jump, but in all likelihood because liberals didn't vote in big numbers.

So the VOTER ID is a scam to shave off the young, elderly, and minority with this VOTER ID barrier.

FYI: Proponents of photo voter identification raise the specter of voter fraud to justify these laws which may disfranchise millions of voters yet do not specifically point to any voter impersonation fraud, the only fraud that these laws address.a. There may be evidence of isolated instances of alleged voter fraud, but proponents of these photo ID bills cannot point to substantial convictions.

Proponents have also pointed to studies like that of the Secretary of State of Colorado which found that about 11,000 apparent noncitizens were on voter rolls and about 4,000 voted in 2010 after matching voter rolls with DMV records, however the study discounts the fact that before the 2010 elections, 30,000 Coloradans became naturalized citizens and there is no evidence that any of the 4,000 voted improperly.

http://www.lawyerscommittee.org/admin/voting_rights/documents/files/Voter-ID-Talking-Points-for-web.pdf

I will bet that is true everywhere. Illegals don't vote

I see Conservatives once again feel obligated to defend Clarence Thomas, criminal on the SCOTUS. One asked for some evidence of an actual improper relationship with Harlan Crow;

Clarence Thomas was here promoting his memoir a few years ago when he bumped into Algernon Varn, whose grandfather once ran a seafood cannery that employed Justice Thomas’s mother as a crab picker.

Mr. Varn lived at the old cannery site, a collection of crumbling buildings on a salt marsh just down the road from a sign heralding this remote coastal community outside Savannah as Justice Thomas’s birthplace. The justice asked about plans for the property, and Mr. Varn said he hoped it could be preserved.

“And Clarence said, ‘Well, I’ve got a friend I’m going to put you in touch with,’ ” Mr. Varn recalled, adding that he was later told by others not to identify the friend.

The publicity-shy friend turned out to be Harlan Crow, a Dallas real estate magnate and a major contributor to conservative causes. Mr. Crow stepped in to finance the multimillion-dollar purchase and restoration of the cannery, featuring a museum about the culture and history of Pin Point that has become a pet project of Justice Thomas’s.

The project throws a spotlight on an unusual, and ethically sensitive, friendship that appears to be markedly different from those of other justices on the nation’s highest court.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43451712/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/

The conflict of interests are constant and all-encompassing in Thomas' career. Citizens United launched a very unusual advertising campaign for his Senate confirmation, a few years later Thomas returned the favor by legalizing anonymous bribery in campaign spending. The Thomas household virtually supports itself through business that comes from organizations with business before the court. Last year Ginni Thomas was paid $150,000 to lobby against a law that's sure to go before the court.

Thomas knows what he's doing, he failed to comply with reporting requirements for 20 years, only filing revised forms once investigative reporters started to reveal the truth. As always with Conservatives, the end justifies the means. Their situational ethics are striking and offensive.

This is the best you guys got. You are sicker than I orginally thought - medic, medic Party down in aisle right.

Navy, this one was hysterical! Thanks for the laugh!

Anna Molly, very funny today. I just wonder where the OUTRAGE is at JAS1 for the PERSONAL attack. I mean you should have seen them hopping like Yosemite over the weekend on The Week Ahead thread. You'd think Feisty had commited a cardinal sin or something.

We are so used to selective poutrage,...perhaps we've become immune to it?

Woim, it is my belief that think progress gets so few hits that it needs to be disseminated elsewhere.

What is TRULY pathetic is that this is a rerun piece on a topic previously DEBUNKED. There was, and is, no there there.

Sad, is it not? Like those poor souls who still think Obama's birth certificate was phony.

Tin foil hats fit both left and right heads, it seems.

Bag Boy:

Your speculation about intent aside...do you really object to prospective voters providing proof of identity?

By the way, Bag Boy, when you talk about "speculation about intent," I feel compelled to remind you that in my line of work, it is common for intent to be inferred from circumstances. No one ever testifies directly that they "meant" to do it. It's not at all improper to infer intent to disenfranchise voters from a proposal that is not even designed to solve the problem it purports to address, but which will, almost certainly, disenfranchise large numbers of voters who tend to not vote for the party proposing the legislation.

Your aim is true, JoAnna.

I'm SO jealous. ;-)

MB: Your aim is true, JoAnna

Isn't it?

Obama was elected based on so much Hope. What a flop the man is. A union stooge. A Nobel Peace prize winner that wages war. A man that is critical of the policy for taxes on the rich, but yet when he has the chance to raise those taxes, he refuses.

Why in the world doesn't Obama ask Congress to approve his little war in Libya? Just what is the problem in doing so? Instead he plays this little "My lawyer says, your lawyer says" game with the Congress and the country. Why is he picking a fight with this issue?

Fake. Phony. Fraud. Obama isn't "Cool" anymore.

Anna Molly-

It's not a red herring, worthy or otherwise.

I am on a permanent absentee ballot status in my home state...I almost always vote by mail. Before I return the ballot that's been mailed to my address, I must sign and swear under oath that I am who I say I am. Occasionally, I'll be undecided late on some ballot measures or candidates and will appear in person on election day to vote at my neighborhood precinct.

When that happens, I'm required by a precinct worker to produce my absentee ballot and provide photo identification...that actually amounts to being asked for two forms of ID.

Do you think I'm being treated unreasonably or unfairly?

Really?

MB: Your aim is true, JoAnna

So she can write her name in the snow - BFD!

Bag:

The context of my original comment was that, whatever Rick Perry's problems with jobs are, they pale by comparison to President Obama's, don't they?

The Texas unemployment rate is 8% as compared to the national rate of 9.1%. I don't think 8% is "pale" in comparison to 9.1%, especially when there seems to be corruption involved in Perry's dealings with industry.

The principal architects of the Obama economy and its jobs policies; Christina Romer, Larry Summers, Austan Goolsby...all gone, Houston. Based on results produced, perfectly understandable.

Well, based on the recovery of my own personal investments from the disaster Bush created, I'd say their architecture was pretty decent. It would have been better if they hadn't had to weaken the stimulus to get the meager number of Republican votes necessary for Senate approval.

A big conservative jump, but in all likelihood because liberals didn't vote in big numbers.

So the VOTER ID is a scam to shave off the young, elderly, and minority with this VOTER ID barrier.

You know Bev I sometime wonder what color the sky is in your world but on this particular point your "facts" bear no relation to your argument. You are basically saying that the fact that the 2010 electorate was more white and conservative than the 2008 election. Yes I agree and most analysis has shown that this is true of off-year elections. You then finish your post the statement "So the VOTER ID is a scam to shave off the young, elderly, and minority with this VOTER ID barrier." How are two connected?

BTW I left the bold on to try and illustrate that writing your whole post in bold is counter-productive as it does not emphasize the particular statement you are trying to illustrate. When you read this post you can see how your statement in bold font stands out.

Houston, herenis Perry's jobs "problem"

http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.tx.htm

I'm thinking Obama would LOVE to have an overall increase in employment of 2% as a "problem". He'd probably like an unemployment number of one and one tenth of a percent lower that today's national average as a problem, too.

All the rhetoric in the world does nothing to drown out those numbers.

That said- that is ALL I know about Perry, but it leaves me wanting to know more.

I am pretty sure a lot of voters feel that way. Too bad they did not display that level of curiosity about Obama. We might not be in as big a mess if they had.

Houston: I tend to ignore "when did you stop beating your wife" questions that have a false premise, which is what you posed. Your assertion that Obama has funneled "hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to unions is not only a big fat lie

So what you're saying Houston is you can print half-truths, falsehoods, and innuendo about Perry, but no one can ever question Obama about doing the same.

Again the ones against picture IDs cant really explain why is suppresses vote? Someone says some states you cant use a college ID well I will say it again, what person on here knows college kid without a drivers license? This person mentioned college kid not a disenfranchised poor minority but someone with enough sense to fill out a college application and get into college and I want to know how many you know that dont drive? If they dont, that number has to be so incredibily small that if they want to vote, go get a driver's license. So far no one has said they no of anyone that doesnt have an ID. How are these supposedly disenfranchised voters getting to their jobs without driving or if unemployed trying to get a job? How many of you have actually met someone without an ID?

Alan:

Although there were only 11 investigations/prosecutions does that mean it doesn't happen?

LoL You realize, of course, that when you get down to THIS level of justification, you've abandoned all hope of being taken seriously. You have ABSOLUTELY no proof of fraud, and yet you're willing to propose a VERY expensive scheme just on the off chance that you might catch some, when you KNOW that by enacting this kind of legislation, disenfranchisement on a large scale is bound to happen.

The implications of your argument are pretty transparent, so you try to cover by proposing free IDs, hoping that you'll appear to be reasonable. But it doesn't slip MY notice, Alan, that that the pols themselves are generally NOT proposing free voter IDs, which makes it clear to me that ensuring that the poor, elderly, and young are not disenfranchised is not high on THEIR priority list, whatever you might pretend that it is on yours.

You should be opposed to this legislation UNLESS it contains a free ID provision. Are you, in fact, opposed to it under those circumstances?

Kirk:

Again the ones against picture IDs cant really explain why is suppresses vote? Someone says some states you cant use a college ID well I will say it again, what person on here knows college kid without a drivers license?

As proponent of the legislation, the burden of proof on you is to show the need for this. A lot of elderly people, and especially the poor, do not have IDs, and may not be in a position to obtain them readily. That's what the REAL proponents of the legislation are hoping for.

As for the college kid having a driver's driver's license, it doesn't establish residency where they go to school, which is where they want to vote, and which is why the proponents of the legislation don't want the college ID used for voting. They're trying to make sure that college kids, who are generally in school on the first Tuesday in April or November, won't be able to vote where they are.

Honestly, how dumb do you think we all are?

Houston-

I believe the topic was job creation by the Obama economic team...not the U.S. stock market, or your personal investments.

May 2009 U.S. unemployment rate: 9.4%

May 2011 U.S. unemployment rate: 9.1%

Ist quarter 2011 (most recent GDP data available) economic growth: 1.8%

It remains what it is, Houston...notwithstanding your admiration for Romer, Summers, and Goolsby with regard to your own finances.

Anna, there is an inherent flaw in your argument-

That only a small number of fraudulent votes were unearthed, with cases string enough to prosecute, (at a high cost), does not negate the need for voter ID, but, in fact, bolsters it.

Had those same people been required to provide legitimate ID, they would have been turned away- thus, no fraud, thus, no cost of prosecution.

But you already knew that.

Navy:

You wrote:

"You cannot refute the truth so you try to intimidate people. Well is does not work.

You have been exposed and as a liar and fraud on this board and what you have to say carries NO weight at all."

This coming from the man who claims so be so virtuous, above it all, a definer of the truth and protector of our liberties.

Saw your posts defending Feisty in her personal attacks against NJNB.

Sorry sir, but it is you who are the liar and the fraud and a hypocrite. You profess to be for free speech but when someone who disagrees with your point of view posts something you disagree with, you find it acceptable to attack her personally as well as her family. Attack what she said, not the poster. You demean yourself, and everything you supposedly stand for. You become the hypocrite, the liar and the fraud.

Answer the question posed by Muffintop:

muffintop1

Navy do you condone Feisty's references to another's husband and family members? Is that what this forum is about, calling out people's family and sex life..."hubby getting it on with a bitter old broad..."

Navy?

David Walker: You are pretty impressed with yourself, which only demonstrates that you are easily impressed.

David Walker:

I'm pretty impressed with you, too! It must make the righties positively RABID! Keep up the GREAT work!

PS. WOIM,...why are you so UBER concerned with something that happened before you were even a member? Unless, of course, you are reincarnated after being banned. You do know THAT is a code violation, too, right?

See, it's okay if YOU violate the code, just not if anyone else has a moment? I just want to be VERY clear on your 'logic'. Thanks for playing.

Do you think I'm being treated unreasonably or unfairly?

Really?

I have no idea how you're being treated. Maybe you should address that to JoAnna.

All I know is that voter ID laws are NOT being proposed to fix an absentee ballot issue, which is a different issue altogether. If a person who is known to have received an absentee ballot shows up at the polls and wants to vote, it surely does make sense to clarify. Otherwise, I see no reason for all this uproar over a problem that has never been proven to exist.

No joe:

That only a small number of fraudulent votes were unearthed, with cases string enough to prosecute, (at a high cost), does not negate the need for voter ID, but, in fact, bolsters it.

Had those same people been required to provide legitimate ID, they would have been turned away- thus, no fraud, thus, no cost of prosecution.

Almost a million dollars per case? I highly doubt that. And hardly worth it, either, since it is extremely rare to have voter margins so small as the amount of extant fraud, so all this alleged "fraud," in addition to not having been shown to exist, has certainly not been shown to cause any significant prejudice or irregularity in the actual vote count.

But you do realize, no joe, do you not, that voter ID laws will also, inevitably, be circumvented by those who truly desire to do so, and you'll be right back where you were. With fewer minority, elderly, and younger voters.

And good for you, no joe.

Anna Molly, thats just wrong. My daughter didnt have any problem using her Illinois drivers license to to vote out of state while in college and if she did I can get her an absentee ballot and she could vote in Illinois. Again, I dont believe the poor and elderly argument. I work with both alot here in Illinois and I never met anyone who didnt have a picture ID. Not saying there isnt some elderly woman in a nursing home that doesnt have one I just never met anyone. As I said, even the illegals have picture IDs here in Illinois so maybe the argument that the cost isnt worth the benefits is valid, as I really dont know. But certainly the substantive aspect of requiring a picture ID cant be disputed.

Where is it written that any of the people in the groups you cite are bereft of ID?

Nowhere.

As to the elderly, I would think YOU would be all for it, if, as you state, lack of ID would deprive them of their voting rights. The elderly do tend to vote republican- despite the democrats' attempts at terrifying them by telling them that evil republicans will snatch their SSchecks from their trembling fingers.

I think it has been done so often that they are now immune to the tactic.

You post dealt, specifically, with the cost of prosecuting voter fraud cases. My point was that, if a legitimate ID were required, those individuals would have been turned away at the polls. No votes, no fraud. No costs of preosecution.

It bolsters the case FOR ID's.

Thanks, AM.

Kirk, please explain how absentee ballots will work? I mean if a ballot can be mailed to an address, why not a voter ID card? Either the address is VALID or it isn't.

This is just bureacratic bs to impede voting, not to make it better. and it is transparent as all get out.

But why? How many FRAUDULENT votes were cast in the last election? It is a complete waste of time to argue this point when the risk is low, the costs are high and the rhetoric isn't important in the grand scheme of things.

This is the HALLMARK of Republican legislation. Beat a drum about something that is statistically insignificant and then wave a bunch of red flags over it to get people amped up about it.

WHERE ARE THE JOBS? Isn't THAT what they campaigned on?

I call BS on their impotent efforts at leadership. No new ideas, just tired old rhetoric about trivial or statistically insignificant issues. Second verse, same as the first.

JoAnnaSmith1

Houston: I tend to ignore "when did you stop beating your wife" questions that have a false premise, which is what you posed. Your assertion that Obama has funneled "hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to unions is not only a big fat lie

So what you're saying Houston is you can print half-truths, falsehoods, and innuendo about Perry, but no one can ever question Obama about doing the same.

Unbelievable. I posted direct quotes from a Times article, including one from REPUBLICAN Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison questioning how Perry doles out money to his corporate cronies. You responded with a big fat ridiculous lie that Obama funneled "hundreds of billions" of dollars to unions.

Bag

It remains what it is, Houston...notwithstanding your admiration for Romer, Summers, and Goolsby with regard to your own finances.

With regard to just about everyone else's finances who are wise enough to try to save for the future. I just hope there's not another incompetent like Bush in the Oval Office when I reach the age where I actually have to live off my investments.

Feisty at her finest -

1. Still got the battery acid running through your veins eh NJNB?

We would like to believe that after you recent near heartbreak, you would of re-assessed the amount of hatred you carry in your heart...

We should of known better....

2.You GO get them you miserable OLD BAT M'Kay?

PS: Thought you had me on ignore?

Nothing more than further PROOF you're a LIAR & and FRAUD...

DO YOU know where your hubby is? LMAO!

3. And therein lies the title you've so succesfully earned as the seond biggest LIAR on this blog right behind JS1!

YOU are a PHONY, FRAUD & a unsuccesul LIAR!

You have been PROVEN repeatedly to soak up EVERY comment like the right wind sponge YOU are!

Notice to NJNB - there were MORE people defending my comments then those that came to your rescue!

That little princess of yours has my deepest sympathies with a HATE riddled Grama like yourself!

Just keepon hating on... one day you will get yours! ;o)

Every dog has her day and it won't take long before YOU get yours...

4 .What's the matter NJNB - hubby out of town AGAIN? I would be more worried about WHAT was UPwith that then spreading you your HATRED every chance you get?

Do YOU think the hubby wants to get it on with a BITTER OLD BROAD that couldn't day something NICE if they had a GUN to their head?

Anyone else would have had the account suspended.

Thanks again for prioving YOU are a certifiable LIAR there GF!

Other than with someone WHO is WARM

For someone who HATES Gubment the way she does - is it any wonder this hypocrite has NO problem breaking the rules?

Feisty – We all had to agree to the Code of Conduct before we can submit our comments. What about you breaking the rules, wouldn’t that make you a hypocrite, beside being a paid troll?

For crying out loud, Houston, you must be the only person left who does not know that a bulk of the billions- almost a trillion- in stimulus funds went to bail out public worker unions.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704164904575421613093659730.html

That is just one article. There are others.

You use a campaign meme from Perry's opponent as "proof" that there is something unsavory about Texas job growth.

Did not work for Hutchinson. Will not work for Obama.

Well, thetotas, thanks for putting me off my lunch.

I understand why you posted this. Perhaps we can get a moderator on here to explain the Code of Honor.

There certainly needs to be an explanation of why it applies to some, but not all, posters.

Perhaps if the posters not bound by it were named, the rst of us could just ignore all their posts, and have decent discussions.

Just saying. . .

I see the newest ploy to turn FR into a fact free zone is to complain that everything should be presented without back up or reference to anything that's been presented elsewhere. What an amazing admission that Conservatives CANNOT compete if ideas have to be based in fact.

That's a very important point...WE all live in the REAL WORLD, and we need solutions that actually WORK. The demands for ideological purity on the part of the GOPTP and their demands that the REAL WORLD imitate an Ayn Rand novel are destined to fail.

Either they can fail because reasonable people see them for ideologically-driven craziness or because we as a society fail because of that craziness. Much of it has ALREADY failed in the real world, in the run up to the Great Depression and again in the Great Recession of 2007. It's time to put the failed ideology of the Right out to pasture once and for all.

You miss the point, John.

I do not believe anyone is advocating doing away with citations. There are some who question the copy and paste of entire opinion pieces from other sites.

I do believe it is covered in the Code of Honor, as well. Something along the lines of copying and pasting a segment, with a link to the rest, being acceptable, while pasting an entire article is unacceptable.

As with personal attacks, it is selectively enforced.

No Jo,

Was out the other day, but thanks to Theotas was able to go back and see the personal attacks thrown your way. They were uncalled for. I join both of you in asking FR why Fiesty has not been suspended for at least a couple of days.

You and I disagree on virtually everything but we both agree that personal attacks have no place here. Stay strong and keep your head up during your family's personal health challenges.

Getting back on point - You would like Rick Perry he along with the GOP legislature have perfected the art of budget cutting. In fact the budget that was recently signed for the first time in a generation has cut public education funding. It didn't even grow to cope with existing populations let alone deal with the expanding needs. Those jobs that are trumpted that were created in Texas by entrepreneurs and others not named Perry will seem a bit hollow for those employees if their children have to attend underfunded and crowded schools. Don't you think?

From Texas Observer - Dave Mann

"The 82^nd Texas Legislature passed perhaps the leanest and cruelest budget in state history…

The plan slices 8 percent from state spending. In 2012 -13 for the first time in decades, the Legislature will significantly reduce funding for public schools Thousands of teachers will lose their jobs, and some schools may close….

The dirty secret of this budget is that it doesn’t pay for itself. The two year spending plan only covers about 18 months of state operations….Lawmakers are hoping and praying the economy improves. Failing that, the poor saps who show up for the 83^rd Legislature in 2013 will have to pass a massive emergency spending plan. The Legistlature is engaged in deficit spending."

The article goes on to detail that the state is doing something similar to the federal government but instead of borrowing money from China they borrow from the future (Texas children). He also expertly phased the majority of cuts to begin for the spring of 2012. What this does is allow him to go through early primary debates without having to answer for the massive spending cuts.

Typical Republicans, chastise the one guy in the room who makes the most sense on the most topics and has the broadest voter appeal because his head's not completely up his ass like the rest of them. Hilarious! How difficult is it to see that the far right is going to blindly vote Republican, just as the far left blindly votes Democrat, but the majority of voters who reside in the middle of the political spectrum and could be drawn to a candidate like Romney because of his strengths on the economy, one of, if not the largest issue for many people in this country, while not being a complete neanderthal on social issues. The political spectrum in this country is completely f*cked up. You either have one side that wants to shoot everything that moves and keep us in pre-WW2 socially or the other side that couldn't steer our economy in the right direction if it were equipped with GPS and large flashing signs that would put Vegas to shame were showing the way. This is an incredibly embarrassing time in our country's great history!

Thanks, Mark, for the kind words.

As to Perry, I know little about him. If he does get into the race, I will make it my business to learn more.

By the way, that includes reading your posts. We may disagree about a lot, but no one could ever accuse you of not having well formed arguments.

John B-

In the REAL WORLD, in the most recent nationwide referendum, the 2010 midterm elections, the voters did put what they regarded as failed ideology out to pasture...with 54 incumbent House Democrats defeated and sent home. Only two incumbent House Republicans suffered defeat last November, while Democrtas were establishing a new, modern day record for defeated incumbents. Republicans gained 63 seats overall, and control of the House Of Representatives.

It was a stinging repudiation of the policies of Congressional Democrats.

Those are the real world facts, John.

That's what really happened.

Clara, I still dont understand this impediment you keep referring to or why you are substantively against voter IDs. I dont have any issue with you saying under any rationale cost/benefit analysis its not worth spending the money for the few fraudulent votes it catches. The unfortunate use of that analysis might endanger virtually all government spending though so its probably not the road most democrats would like to go down. Under any cost benefit analysis, we wouldnt ever spend money on environmental issues, green energy, educational spending that just goes into teacher salaries or pension benefits, defense spending, infrastructer, unemployment benefits (based on all objective studies), most welfare unless its tied to work etc. Spending on planned parenthood would probably go up as we would have fewer babies to support but there arent that many programs that benefit either party that would meet the cost benefit analysis. So my guess is that you might want to not use the cost/benefit analysis as support for not wanting voter ids.

As for job creation, the republicans have consistently been proposing ideas that get shut down by the Senate house of NO. You might disagree with those ideas or not like them but they are there. The senate just blocks everything

@nojo, et.al. -- I have tried to call Tyler (moderator) out on this. Last week I called the moderators spineless, gutless dog excrement and didn't get banned. Maybe you'll have better luck. He won't even respond to my email and questions on the Newsvine COH.

The first poster should have his post removed in that it did not address one issue in this FR topic/story -- just a rant on Justice Thomas.

Maybe you'll have better luck.

Tyler Adams (NEWSVINE) <tyler@newsvine.com

Since they delete email addresses -- that would be tyler at newsvine dot com.

It's settled then. USN's post at #1 consists of his own thoughts and writing with back up from other sites.

Any of the Conservatives here actually plan to rebut any of that, or are you just going to keep whining about how reality doesn't play by your rules?

Oh, and MB? Just because the GOPTP controls more than half the seats in one house of one branch of government doesn't give carte blanche to just pretend there aren't people who disagree. Polls show that the public isn't too happy with what Republicans have done since the election. That's what happens when you tell people your agenda is "jobs" and then prove otherwise.

Poor little Ben ######, we do not post what he wants us to so he runs off to mommy crying all the way. Did it ever dawn on you that maybe Tyler and Sally and tired of listening to you cry every time you do not get your own way. Poor widdle baby, go home now and get your diaper changed and if you are a good widdle boy and do exactly what you are told maybe you will get a hug.

GROW UP WILL YA!!!!

nojonobo:

For crying out loud, Houston, you must be the only person left who does not know that a bulk of the billions- almost a trillion- in stimulus funds went to bail out public worker unions.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704164904575421613093659730.html

That is just one article. There are others.

For crying out loud nojo, not even the Wall Street Journal supports JoAnnaSmith's bogus claim that Obama funneled "hundreds of billions" to unions.

Maintaining the salaries and generous benefit plans for members of teachers unions is indeed a top Democratic priority. That's why $10 billion of the bill's funding is allocated to education, and the money comes with strings that will multiply the benefits for this core Obama constituency.

First of all, ten billion is not "hundreds of billions," in case you've forgotten how to count. Second, keeping teachers from being fired isn't exactly the same as funneling money into union coffers. Rick Perry apparently is SELECTIVELY doling out contracts to his cronies. Who should Obama "select" to fund besides teachers if the goal is to keep public education from going down the drain? Exxon? Koch Industries?

You use a campaign meme from Perry's opponent as "proof" that there is something unsavory about Texas job growth.

No, I didn't. I just quoted from the Time article that Beverly linked to. I didn't claim it was proof of anything. You don't need any more PROOF that Perry is a barking mad nut job than his unbelievable veto of the Republican-sponsored bill in the state legislature to outlaw texting while driving because it's government "micromanaging" adult behavior.

Kirk:

Anna Molly, thats just wrong. My daughter didnt have any problem using her Illinois drivers license to to vote out of state while in college and if she did I can get her an absentee ballot and she could vote in Illinois.

Kirk -- Two problems with this. Either it is not credible -- are you absolutely sure she didn't use her college ID or some other document that proved residence, like a utility bill? That's what my own daughter used; her driver's license didn't work -- or (2) it shows an entirely DIFFERENT problem with voter fraud than all this legislation addresses if a person can cross from one state into another and vote on the strength of their home state's driver's license. We don't need THIS legislation, in that case. We need something else altogether.

Bag Boy:

Those are the real world facts, John.

That's what really happened.

Maybe. But what's happened SINCE to improve your life or mine as a result of Republican initiative? Nothing that I can see.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

And the hit's ust keep on rolling when it comes to bat sh!t crazy Bachmann!

Let's recap some of Mrs. Bachmann's 'profound' beliefs shall we?

Feisty, can I use these?????????????????

Feisty, can I use these?????????????????

Help yourself & spread the word! ;o)

Anna Molly, the problem with we dont need this legislation based on the presumptions you provide or examples in which people can create devious ways around it is that it really doesnt substantively answer why democrats have a problem with it? Under your view, if a republican came up and said we need to get rid of social security disability benefits (or name your welfare entitlement program like food stamps) because there is abuse in the system. You would say no we dont we have to keep it because there is always going to be abuse in the system and people are going to find ways around it anyway but to penalize the many for the sins of the few is not fair. I would agree with you. Its the same way with voter ID laws, to ensure the integrity of our voting system, its really not too much to ask to have a picture ID and not one person has responded yet that they knew a poor, elderly or young person that doesnt have an ID. If you have to have a picture ID to buy alcohol, make a credit card purchase etc, come on its just doesnt pass the smell test that to vote you need an ID. Someone claimed there wasnt enough fraud to justify. How would anyone know? We all know of the huge number of fraudulent ballots and ghost people voting each year in chicago. We know of the felons that voted in 2000 in Miami. I would be willing to bet a huge amount of money that illegal aliens vote all the time. Do they make a statistical difference, I have no clue but retaining the integrity of our voting system really isnt too much to ask.

Ok Navy then tell us what your political gods have proposed in the Senate or Presidency to do about it? Stop complaining about the people you disagree with and give us some solutions? I think more proposals have come out of the house by a factor of 10 or more than the Senate so come on give us some bills being proposed to fix Obama Care and the 85 million people that are going to lose their insurance in a couple of years?

Quit citing the wrong web sites for your info. Do you not realize that you are just as silly as the far right because you are citing the far left loony crap? Do you get paid by them? Come clean and let us know?

Kirk,

At least he didn't use the word DRACONIAN today. Still not on topic though, that is whatever topic Think Progress and whatever sites he needs to use to cut and paste a post.

Love all the congratulatory hugs and kisses for the posts that others wrote. Why not just have one person post the sites and we can all look at them together rather than take up a whole page of other peoples thoughts you haven't read or understand.

Kirk,

What the hell do you mean by the, "wrong web sites" and far left loony crap" ? You have a right to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

I find that the senators and house members giving the rich a tax cut is a conflict of interest. They are cutting taxes on themselves and taking from the poor. The Republicans and Democrates are using a divide and conquer tactic complemented by chronic neglect of basic services and needs, leaving the people severely impoverished and unemployed.

I just want to know what is the plan after you give all the money to the rich and the old and poor are dying on the streets as they will no longer have housing? What is your plan for all the young without an education? How much of our population do you plan on putting in prisons 50% or 75%? Do you think after you cut all the services and the people are starving they will just lay down and die for the good of the rich? After all we are suppost to kill our country for the good of the rich. We bailed out the rich bankers so they could give themselves big bonuses, but bailing out the poor is just too much to ask without giving more tax breaks to the rich.

The rich made their money in our country and now think they owe nothing to nobody and no country.

I am not sure I know the correct quote. I think I understand why the Bible says that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven. They are sure proving it in this country.

Americans First, first name me one government program for the poor or education, services that have been cut? Programs for the poor and education have grown at levels over the last 20 years and longer at rates far faster than inflation. When cuts are mentioned, they mean cuts to the growth not cuts to the absolute number so give me a program that has been cut. Education has grown faster than any reasonable amount of inflationary growth, unemployment etc has grown 300%.

Regardless of how you characterize the tax rate extensions, they certainly were not taken from the poor. The rich already pay all the income tax collected by the government. You can advocate that they should pay more which in essence you mean give more welfare entitlements to seniors, defense, wars, and yes social services whether it be welfare or infrastructure. Other forms of tax have increased dramatically at all levels and again the rich pay the vast majority on an absolute basis of these taxes too so not sure what you mean taking from the poor.

Rich also pay the most in charitable contributions and so do republicans by every objective measure. The difference is that most republicans think religious and charitable organizatons do alot of good for society while democrats would prefer the government to be the entitlement organization and make the winners and losers choice when slicing up the pie. And even if you believe its a moral imperative that those with more give more (which I agree with), its not for you or the government to impose your moral beliefs. Isnt that why most democrats want republicans to stay away from a woman's body and her choice to have an abortion?

As for your bible quote, you are taking Jesus's words out of context as the eye of a needle was referencing the path way into Jerusalem in which a donkey had to get on its knees to pass into the city. They didnt have needles as you think of them at that time in our history. The reference wasnt nearly as draconian as you make it. It was more about money being corrupting (which it certainly is) which would make it difficult for a wealthy person to get into heaven but certainly not impossible as the donkeys made it through the eye of the needle daily but just through a difficult process. Under your view, even Tim Tebow would be left in hell.

Not taken from the poor. I quess that education and health services do not count. Services are being cut everywhere to give more tax breaks. Because we can not raise taxes lets raise the retirement to 69 and if we do not give health care, the poor will be dead before they retire.

Tax rates are lower than they have ever been. Where are all the jobs for the tax cuts? Surely for all the years of tax cuts, unemployment must be really low.

Look at the history of the United States, when in our past have we been in war and given tax breaks to the wealthy? In our previous wars, the people were asked to give more not less. Do you really think the leave all children behind is good education? Lets not teach our children to think, just lets teach them to pass a test, that will show what they know.

It is not for me to impose my moral beliefs on the rich but it quite ok for the religious to impose their moral beliefs on the rest of the country.

If I would just trust those trying to push their moral beliefs down my thoat, they will provide social services better than the government. The rich will donate their money to the poor if we would only quit taking taxes. Wars are good for America. As long as I am telling fairy tales, what others do you want me to believe?

The 15% top tax rate on capital gains is already a massive giveaway to the rich, one that even Ronald Reagan recognized and wouldn't support. Now that's not enough, it's important to give millionaires and billionaires a FREE RIDE on the tax train.

The GOPTP fealty to the wealthy elites is amazing, and their confidence in their ability to dupe the American public truly astounding. They no longer even make efforts to camouflage their real intent, choosing instead to rob the average American in broad daylight.

Americans First, no education and health services do count. Again, provide me one example where amounts budgeted for the underpriviledged have been cut? The amount of growth or annual increases have been cut but you cant point me to one program that hasnt had budgetary increases that far outspend inflation. Education spending has grown beyond our wildest imaginations in terms of absolute dollar and percentage increases. Same with all the programs you are worried about. Name me one person in this country that doesnt have access to health care? Taxes have nothing to do with health care being provided to anyone. Income tax rates are lower as a percentage of GDP half of us dont pay any at all. The rich pay almost all the income tax. Should they pay more, maybe but I think the entire system needs to overhauled and all the tax breaks eliminated. No more mortgage deduction, charitable deduction or anything that is social engineering in the tax code. And yes, you should pay more tax too. All of us need to be invested in this country and we have to eliminate the system in which half of us dont pay any income tax. By the way until the this recession under Reagan, Clinton and Bush we had substantial job gains with reduced taxes to the wealthy. Under Clinton people like to say that more revenue was brought in and jobs created because he raised taxes when it was the opposite. Although he added a higher tax bracket that Bush eliminated, Clinton reduced the capital gains tax which fueled the internet boom of the late 90s bringing in an amazing amount of revenue for the government. It was a tax cut that created those jobs not a tax increase.

Money has nothing to do with leaving whatever children you are referring to behind. They are being left behind because of a broken educational system in which the teacher's unions have a vested interest in keeping broken while the republicans have tried over and over to try something new and innovative while allocating billions of additional dollars and get stymied every time. Thats without even talking about the broken democratic policies of the past that created systemic poverty (generational welfare), free hand outs, Section 8 housing, low income highly dense high rises, less focus on the family and benefits of fathers at home through government incentives etc that have created a lack of educational focus by parents in lower income areas.

I am not sure why you keep bring wars into the conversation as it has nothing to do with this discussion. I am not providing any opinion on wars whether it be Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan or Libya as thats not part of this discussion so not sure what you are trying to say in that context.

As for John, I dont know if the capital gains rate itself is a massive giveway or how its defined. For example, in some situations its a second tax on the same income so I am less inclined to say its a massive giveaway but I do agree with you that many types of income maybe shouldnt be defined as capital gains and they should be taxed as ordinary income or compensation. It has been proven that capital gains rates on true investment income is a huge driver of innovation and new venture capital which in turn creates significant jobs per dollar invested. What the right rate is too? I dont know. So I agree with you in part and disagree in part too.

Kirk,

Please educate me on Bills, aimed at job creation, that have come out of the GOP controlled house and are being held up in the Senate.

I follow this stuff pretty darn close and haven't seen anything. Nothing at all.

If you say tax cuts, I'm gonna implode. lowest tax rates in 50+ years = highest deficit. any logical person could see the correlation. We kept the tax rates where they were, still no more jobs.

So, please, enlighten me on all these Job Bills out of the House....

Kirk is just another keyboard "GOP/TP Thug" that makes up things as he goes along. Sorry Kirk we are not impressed or intimidated by your antics.

I will visit what ever web sites I want and post what I want. If you do not like it too bad because I am not going to stop so your better get used to it or move on.

The GOP/TP Party has nothing except the constant hate mongering against President Obama. You have nothing in the making that will move this country forward, nothing. Tell us the name and number of one bill being proposed in the house that address Jobs in the country and how they are going to help the economy. You have nothing, you are shooting blanks again and we are wise to it.

Ted, there have been quite a few and you just dont pay attention because you dont give them the time of day. You seem to forget that the republicans or fiscal conservatives feel that the private sector creates jobs not the government. So bills aimed at reducing bad government regulations like overturning the Form 1099 requirements in Obamacare are a good thing. Eliminating the EPA regs in trying to impose cap and trade via rules rather than law and defunding the czars that are keeping new job creation in small businesses. The house voted to repeal Obamacare, that one bill alone would reduce the deficit which again republicans feel helps the economy rather than bringing it down like the government stimulus. The house voted to overhaul Medicare again these maybe bills you dont like but they were bills aimed at stopping the sinking fiscal ship that Obama has sailed.

Everyone on here spends way too much time worrying about tax cuts when the real issue is overhauling tax policy which the again the republicans have been leading the charge that democrats keep stalling. Everyone needs to pay more tax including the 50% of us that dont pay anything. All social engineering needs to removed from the tax code and make it simple and fair with a progressive rate structure but everyone needs to pay and be invested in this country.

Prior to 2010, the republicans tried to bring tort reform, minimum wage bills that keep our young from working and actually lower the wages in the aggregate all of which would stimulate the economy and create jobs but guess which party keeps these bills from being passed. The Wall Street Journal provided an estimate that Texas alone has created so many additonal jobs just from tort reform alone. Of course maybe we would lose a few plantiffs and class action lawyers along the way (did you see the Best Buy settlement? $290 thousand to 9 plantiffs and $10 million in fees to the lawyers) and your congressmen are in the pockets of the trial lawyers as one of the biggest lobbyists contributors to the party in order to keep their gravy train going. So there is plenty to discuss

Kirk, we've had some pretty good conversations but I can't let a comment that minimum wage laws are hurting the economy go unchallenged. That's the worst of Capitalism, more akin to Dickens or Malaysia than the great American economy we've all come to know and love.

Navy why am I a thug because I called you out on your inability to respond? I didnt tell you to stop posting, I was just trying to get you to post something that we can actually have a discussion and debate on. When you just call people names like you did here, you just fall into the Saul Alinsky method of left wing debate. When you cant win, name call. When you cant win, destroy the reputation or person you are debating on the other side.

You keep asking people to come up with responses and we do but you refuse to discuss. Why is that? First I gave you examples of political positions or bills passed by the republican house aimed at fixing our fiscal house and improve the economy and second I asked you to give me examples of where the senate or Obama has proposed any current fixes to the economy?

I even gave you an easy one with Obamacare and you cited old, dated information that has currently been proved wrong and even sent you to the Wall Street Journal. I even gave the bill that eliminated the Form 1099 administrative requirements in Obamacare that the democrats and Obama refused to fix until the republicans won the house which would have cost an untold number of current jobs.

Instead of calling me a Thug, do some independent thinking dont spout some agenda dripping stuff from some of the more loony websites on the planet. Do you not realize that for idiot you think comes out of the religious right, there are just as many people who think the Soros driven progressive loony left is laughed at? So name calling only makes people laugh at you and be less credible. Use some critical thinking skills or have all them been bought lost with your passion to make your so called thug comments

John, maybe minimum wage laws when created were very good things no different than child labor laws but for the most part they have run their course. You have seen the same studies that I have seen that objectively show that minimum wage increases just eliminate jobs at the lowest end. So it dramatically increases teenage unemployment at a sensitive time when kids need to learn basic work skills. It kills jobs in small businesses which can afford to pay a certain amount towards payroll so they do more with less or keep more within the family. That certainly was the way it was growing up as my parents owned a Hallmark store and then 2 more and as the minimum wage went up, we hired fewer employees and we worked more. In larger urban areas, minimum wage laws do nothing but drive up costs for retailers as the turnover for those jobs is already over 90% so they pay more anyway to keep their best employees based on what the market will bear which has no correlation to minimum wage. So instead, large retailers just pay more for nothing and small retailers and food chains participate even more in the underground economy by paying cash to reduce their overall payroll liability and of course it ends up having the unintended consequence of reducing tax collections to the government. And this doesnt even touch the negative implications of minimum wage and illegal immigration.

There you have it folks.

According to Kirk, the minimum wage should be what the market will bear. So all of those illegals getting paid in cash, under the table are now part of the SOLUTION, not part of the problem.

True agenda,...read it and weep. They honestly believe that there should be NO bottom to wages. Hello, slavery, you're just an election or two away - My how you've been missed by SOME!

Wow Clara, that was grossly unfair and an extreme almost outright distortion of what I wrote. Do you do this to start a fight because it wont work or just to be mean? I write about behavior that is happening now as a result of high minimum wage laws so illegals getting paid under the table is what happens when minimum wages get too high for small businesses to afford to hire new employees without shutting down and you somehow twist it to make it into something else. Did you even read what I wrote? What true agenda are you telling people to read and weep? That I advocate slavery given that I am a small business owner myself who just laid off two employees for lack of revenue I find your post to extremely distasteful. By the way, what do you mean no bottom to wages? Tell me what you think would happen if there was no minimum wage? Do you think people would be lined up around the block for those 8 dollar an hour jobs at McDonalds so that McDonalds could start paying people $2 dollars an hour and people would take it? What drugs are you smoking or what reality do you live in? Even in these difficult times, its tough to find people who will even work for minimum wage outside of a few college kids part time as unemployment provides enough to not make it worth while to actually take the minimum wage job and if you want someone full time you have to pay more than that so you dont have constant turnover which kills your business. You clearly dont understand the basics of small business finance and you should be ashamed of distorting my words.

Wow, Kirk . . . really? Minimum wage laws are the problem?

Not only do you want to cut welfare and entitlements, but you also want to pay those at the lowest levels less money. THEN you wan to ban abortion and force every woman to carry every child to term.

So tell me, smart guy . . . what happens to all those unwanted children when the "entitlements" get cut and their mothers start bringing in less money due to the minimum wage being reduced? Who pays for all those unwanted children? (You think only teenagers work for minimum wage? You know all those single mothers working in restaurants? Guess how much they make?)

See, this is the problem with your party. You completely FAIL to look at the big picture. You want to ADD the the low income population by banning abortion, then take away all their money and expect it all just to "work out". But hey, why should you care? You only focus on children BEFORE they are born . . . they could starve on the streets after birth, and you would just blame someone else.

OMG, Kirk

You are PRICELESS! Are you seriously offended that I took your metaphor and RAN it to its ultimate conclusion? I have a degree in Accounting with minors in Business and Psychology and you want to tell me I don't understand the basics of business? Really?

Labor is expensive. Even at minimum wage. But there is ALWAYS someone willing to do it better, faster, cheaper - ALWAYS. And there are always businesses who will wink, nod and nudge to avoid full business costs. It's true in construction by using substandard materials or substandard methods, it's true in manufacturing and farming, etc. Regulations and Laws are there to protect SOCIETY (from the grunt worker through to the business executive who might be exposed to fraud and theft).

Are you paying ANY attention to what is happening in this country? Every time a tax break is given, our debt goes up and a Middle Class back breaks. I paraphrase your own words "...minimum wage laws WERE a good thing; but they've run their course". REALLY? How the heck am I twisting YOUR words?

And if you are really paying attention to legislation, you'd understand that the intent ALL along was to fix the 1099 issue. It was acknowledged almost immediately as a short sighted 'fix'. That example is a PRIME one to explore how BAD legislation gets passed in the first place. Everyone is so busy piling on their gimmes they aren't paying attention. It's a miracle anything gets done.

I apologize that you don't like the conclusions I drew from your stated feelings about minimum wages. I stand by my position that I perceive the REAL agenda of the monied is to either move the minimum wage to even LESS of a livable wage OR move the jobs offshore altogether. Maximizing profit is now a religion to some and they simply cannot give up the addiction. Stagnant wages for Middle Class and less are not going to save Americans.

Thoughts from Cali--ha thats the problem you make when you make assumptions because of your bias to anyone you think is not on your side. I am pro choice and always have been. I have worked on the local AIDS commission and would never deny a gay couple the right to have the same legal rights as a heterosexual couple. So your assumption that a fiscal conservative like myself means I am a social conservative just makes you not a very credible debater. I never said that minimum wages were the problem. John brought it up as part of a long string of mine in which I said minimum wage bills were brought up by republicans and you know what all they wanted to do was suspend the increases and make exceptions for teenagers and all of you jumped on my back thinking I was for slave labor. Get real.

By the way, tell me what entitlements and welfare social services have been cut? Cant can you because they have actually grown by double digit growth and close to 80% in welfare and social services under Obama. No one is threatening cuts but CUTTING THE RATE OF GROWTH. Until you have something positive or knowledgeable to say dont make an ass out of yourself again

Kirk -

I simply state what EVERY OTHER Republican, just like YOU, preaches on a daily basis. It's not my fault if the company you keep portrays you in a negative light. When you choose to align yourself with those who (as the article states) focus primarily on anti-abortion and anti-gay agenda's, you will be seen as no different.

I am an independent, supporting liberal social policies and some conservative fiscal policies. I used to support the conservative fiscal policies more, in the past . . . but now they have lost sight of what stimulates the economy, DEMAND. You stated yourself that you had to lay off 2 workers because of a loss in revenue . . . this is a function of the demand side of economics. I highly doubt that tax cuts, and increasing unemployment (as the Republicans want) will result in you hiring those people back. Only an increase in demand will spur employment. The Republicans have lost sight of this.

Clara, you know what you did and I havent even once tried to distort or do anything but discuss with you and you attempted to paint me as something I am not. We can play the game of backgrounds as I grew up in a very small blue collar community as the son of a small business owner. I am CPA and tax attorney by background and current small business owner in real estate. I have worked in large lawfirms, accounting firms, large public corporations etc so I am very familiar with how it all works. Your not going to get one by me on the business aspect large or small or running a business and the decisions people make. Minimum wage laws are so far down on the list of issues I couldnt begin to really see it as even a minor issue at the moment but John asked a question and I politely responded thats it. I am definitely fiscally conservative and have never met an evil corporate CEO or management that is always described on here. Again the sins of a few shouldnt be the standard for decision making on the whole. You were definitely twisiting my words to make a distorted point that would make you points with the team of democrats at all costs on this blog. If you want to have a spirited debate that is respectful where both sides can admit when their party isnt doing the right thing then lets do it but if we are going to discuss political partisan non objective talking points then lets drop it.

Kirk, you're trying to make a case that it's acceptable and even beneficial to drive the wage rates of Americans down to levels seen in third world countries, all in the service of increasing profits and income for the wealthy. That's a position which doesn't even produce a stable society, and certainly isn't recognizable to the average American.

The end game of this is a society in which the few literally own EVERYTHING and the rest better hope one of those wealthy feels generous enough to offer a job. That isn't America, it's the aristocracy of old Europe. It also is a society that CANNOT generate the sort of broadly-based economic activity that made the United States the world's most powerful economy. At that point poverty spirals violently out of control.

Meanwhile with your advocacy of shredding the rest of the social safety net the unfortunate are left to scrounge, live among the homeless, potentially even die. Ultimately it's a cycle that can only lead to violent upheaval as the peasants realize "let them eat cake" is not an answer.

Sorry Kirk, you've presented yourself as a moderate but there's nothing moderate about this course. It's a dramatic rethinking of what it means to be an American.

Kirk

I know what I did. I made you look like the greedy fool you are and you don't LIKE that. Tough. How on earth could a successful accountant be laying off right now? Perhaps you shouldn't have niched in Real Estate, eh? That darn California market is a tricky one.

Call out some less informed people with your smoke and mirrors BS. We've got your number. 3rd World wages will suit you just fine. Your righteous indignation notwithstanind your OWN words have revealed far more than you intended.

I can see why Kirk gave up being a lawyer. Who would be able to pay his fees if they only make the $few an hour he is advocating. Since most of the employees salary in this country would be reduced, it would just widen the gap between rich and poor. There would hardly be any need for lawyers, since there will be less people to rip off.

Or maybe Kirk wants it so he can go back to lawyering, using poor people to try and rip off the rich to line his pockets.

Either way I am sure he has personal reasons for making the poor poorer. These are the kind of folks who will sell the USA down the drain for a dollar.

HOORAY!!!! WE ARE GOING BACK TO SERFDOM!!!!!! thanks kirk.yippee.

Ok I cant believe you guys. You practice the art of personal destruction for no other reason than you make assumptions and disagree by making outlandish extreme cases. I havent attacked any of you but made arguments to support my beliefs and instead of arguing back you want to call me a fool and silly names using extreme sets of circumstances. Does that mean you cant actually articulate a better position? I never practiced law for clients and stopped practicing while working in house and went on to a different type of job. By the way, what is wrong with being successful anyway? Whats wrong with you guys? Fletch makes up some sillly BS about using poor people to line my pockets where do people like that come from? Clara, you called me a greedy fool because I talk about the unintended consquences of minimum wage and you go off the deep end on some slave labor crap. Do you guys not ever see the unintended consquences of your positions? Do you not see the ridiculousness of arguing from that extreme when I am not? No one argued for third world wages so why do you use personal destruction and obvious misdirection to malign legitimate issues that need to be discussed. I dont remember calling out anyone Clara and I am glad you have my number wow I have really been putting out smoke and mirrors havent I. Your no different than the NRA when people propose reasonable gun laws by arguing "no way am I going to agree to banning assault weapons because now your going to take all my guns" Thats exactly how Fletch, you and thoughts from California are responding to me. I say something that you disagree with and take it to wild extreme that isnt even within the realm of possibility. Instead of debating you would prefer the art of personal destruction which is the classic liberal methodology when reasonable middle ground solutions that make sense are outside of your ability to fathom. By the way thoughts from Cal, I have never preached anything about abortion nor do I know a single one of my fiscal conservative brethren that even mention it in passing. Ok this is a hot button issue for you personally but keep it away from me because none of my brethren are preaching to you as we are more interested in avoiding a country slide into fiscal hell and turning us into socialistic style european countries. Besides have some respect for people who think different than you maybe you will get some respect back.

John thanks for being respectful in your responses even though you disagree. I would prefer if you responded with less extreme conclusions and respond to the actual unintended consequences we discussed because you know we arent talking about wages going from $8.5 to $3 dollars an hour? Because of inflation, wages are not going to regress so lets debate actual consequences or issues and problems that you want me to address not hypothetical results or conclusions that arent ever going to happen.

PS Clara, go back and check and you will discover Obama rejected any proposed fix to the 1099 issue while the democrats controlled the house and Senate and it was only after the house because republican did Obama want to get in front of this issue. Yes everyone knew it was a problem that he refused to address and there are a ton more inbedded in Obama care he hasnt addressed

Clara, by the way legal and illegal immigration has done more to destroy the middle class than any republican policies but nobody wants to address it because it doesnt fit nicely in the liberal agenda. Who do you think depressed wages. There was a recent study in Iowa at meat processing plants (none Union) in which local workers were getting as much as $20 dollars per hour in that late 70s and early 80s. Legal and illegal workers started coming in and eventually the entire work force was getting paid $10-12 dollars per hour. With the recent raids and deportations, local US citizen workers have begone taking many of those jobs back and slowly wages have climbed and you can see it in the increased cost of pork and beef over the last few years (besides Corn feed skyrocketing). If you took the entire 40 million immigrant population out of the control group on income and wealth inequality, I wonder if you wouldnt find it hasnt changed as much as you guys want to always say. Dont get me wrong, I am not in any way editorializing on hispanic immigration but as a country we cant have it both ways and enjoy low prices and low inflation and high wages and benefits.

Kirk,

You are the one making this PERSONAL. I believe the objective of the Corporatist agenda is to reduce the minimum wage (which is currently NOT a livable wage) even further. You come along and essentially take a position that I perceive ALIGNS with my belief and then are surprised when I (and clearly several others) draw an 'inevitable' conclusion? Why do you deem an 'extreme' conclusion isn't a possible outcome? What part of recent history leads you to believe that with the existing agenda and the potential votes necessary - exactly what we FEAR will happen, won't happen? You can't guarantee that 'reason' will somehow take root. Paul Ryan's Medicare proposal is INCREDIBLY extreme. It relies on Insurance (Corporatists) to magically hold premiums to the amount of the 'voucher' Seniors will have for redemption. Based on RECENT history - anyone not cautiously suspicious of privatizing ANYTHING (Blackwater, Haliburton, Columbia/HCA - these are just a barely scratched surface few) that will somehow be BETTER for Americans than it is self serving for the Corporations. Well that's just showing a level of naivete that is simply not reasonable.

President Obama also cited 1099s in his State of the Union address when he said there is a need to correct “a flaw in the legislation that has placed an unnecessary bookkeeping burden on small business.”

He was never against fixing it,...he was against tinkering the existing bill. Legislative fixes are MUCH more permanent than signing statements, etc.

While we are attempting open discussion - is the EXTREME of changing Medicare vis a vis Paul Ryan in any way MEANINGFULLY different than the Killing of Granny during the Healthcare debate? Thank you Chuck Grassley, Sarah Palin, et al.

We Democrats have watched Republicans frame a debate from the extremes. Rick Santorum saying that Gay Marriage will lead to Man on Animal Marriage. Abortion is Murder/Pro-Life. Even political ads that prey on the basal fears of race, religion and sexual orientation (Willie Horton, Kay Hagan, etc). So, yes, when we get backed into a corner, we come out swinging.

here is exactly what I said:

There you have it folks.

According to Kirk, the minimum wage should be what the market will bear. So all of those illegals getting paid in cash, under the table are now part of the SOLUTION, not part of the problem.

True agenda,...read it and weep. They honestly believe that there should be NO bottom to wages. Hello, slavery, you're just an election or two away - My how you've been missed by SOME!

How you think this is personal to YOU is beyond me. I even generalize when I say "they",...Intellectual honesty matters. If you misspoke your position on the Minimum Wage, just say so.

Immigration will forever be a problem. Ronald Reagan gave AMNESTY and over the next decade we doubled illegal immigration. Yes it drives down wages, yes it creates a plethora of Social Issues. But we have laws that companies (those upstanding bastions of American Values) ignore. And then they feel 'threatened' and 'uncertain' about their profitability because someone might actual point out that they are operating illegally or at the very least unethically. Come on,...this isn't just a David and Goliath metaphor. THIS IS LITERALLY BIG CORPORATE WILL versus little joe citizen. And with the monied interests,...guess who's looking out for little joe citizen? From the looks of things it's just Me, John B, Thoughts from Cali and Fletch2. If you think our position is "personal destruction",...I think you don't know the meaning of the term.

Kirk, you believe my conclusions to be extreme, I believe them to be the natural and logical outcome. I believe this in part because it represents the conditions that made minimum wage laws necessary in the first place. It's only reasonable to assume without those laws and programs life will once again be the same--but with the additional downward pressure which comes from a global economy.

At the time NAFTA was passed I believed the argument. It was said that the Maquilladora towns would develop a new surge in Mexican middle class that would both stem the tide of illegals and create new opportunities for US-built goods. It could have worked that way but it didn't. Why? Because the wealthy elites who pushed NAFTA through didn't see it that way. The spread of middle class incomes around the world wasn't their goal. The suppression of incomes was.

Clara, you did make it personal you called me a greedy fool and made it seem like I was advocating for the return of the Stone Ages. Cali and Fletch certainly called me all kind of names just because I stated an opinion that was informed or based on personal experience that I think is very relevant (not being a lawyer but growing up with and working in my parents Hallmark store). I understand where your hypothetical concerns come from but the conclusions that both you and John draw are extreme. At no point in our history since the 1920s have wages at the lowest rung gone down to the levels you guys are talking about even with the huge influx of unskilled hispanic labor. If both of you came back and said without a minimum wage you are concerned that wages will stagnate at a level that isnt a living wage and that it will not help drive up wages over time, thats a reasonable response. Saying that corporations or wealthy elites (and by the way I have no idea what that is) are intentionally part of some cabal of people manipulating wages is out of some Robert Ludlum book.

I dont know what happened to you Clara in your work experience to hate corporations so much but I have worked for two Fortune 500 companies and I have never met a Wealthy elite trying to control the world. I have met people trying to get through the day and do their job and get home to their families as quickly as possible and yes have a level of success. The global economy is too complicated to try and manipulate it like you guys think. Plus again there are unintended consquences to pulling one switch for another. Most corporations want their employees to be happy and pay them as much as the market pay for that position. I havent know anyone trying to screw the middle class come on what web sites are you guys reading? Do you know how Soros got his money so you cant trust his web sites that are used as here. I am not advocating any conservative either as they all have an agenda. Corporatist agenda? your reading too many conspiracy novels come on. If you work for widget company A and are the CEO, you want to sell as many widgets as you can with the highest quality possible because it only makes sense for your personal job security. So you hire and employ the best you can afford to do so and still make money for the owner of your company whether it be you or public shareholders. How do you think over the last 100 years this country has been built and how progress has been made and technology improvements, medical and drug improvements its not because there is some corporatist out to screw the comman man.

Clara, I dont know enough about Paul Ryan's plan to be able to speak intelligently about it. I do know that our current health care system including the expense side and the revenue side dont work as efficiently and productively as they can. I know our entitlement system is not going to work under the current system. I know Obamacare isnt going to work unless you advocate a Universal health care system that will bankrupt this country which is where it is currently headed. I do know that there are a ton of scare tactics being used on Ryan's system that are all based on lies but I couldnt really tell you if its good or not. I do know that most if not all of you dislike it solely because it came from a republican and for no other reason than that. No different than a ton of people who dislike Obamacare for no other reason that it came from him. I am not like that. I have no problem with the mandate under his plan. I have more concerns with the fine that allows all employers to dump their current health plan and pay a fine. Because I know that means they all will because the fine is cheaper. I know that Obamacare didnt address the expense side of things which means it will be 5 times more expensive than estimated and when all the current people with employer provided benefits go into the exchanges, our benefits will have to be reduced to be able to afford it. I believe in giving things a chance from either side when your plan doesnt work. I hate the fact that democrats oppose any educational reform becaues of the teachers union. Whats wrong with trying something different like vouchers or charter schools as it cant be worse. Same thing with medicare etc where, Ryans proposals worked for welfare reform why not let him try as the current plan isnt going to work and the democrats havent come up with anything better. But I have no problem listening and making up my mind on a democratic plan as I am for the whats best for the country not whats best for the republican party. So I am not going to myopic and just believe that it must be wrong if the democrats propose it.

As for privatization, sorry but it generally works so your few examples of where it didnt or there were issues with it doesnt mean it doesnt work. I agree we should never privatize defense but your examples of Haliburton etc are just conflicts of interest and ethical and illegal activities that take place in both parties. Every member at one point in Clinton's cabinet was indicted for taking bribes remember Cisneros and that team. It happens. Do you think Rahm Emmanual made $7 million in the one year he worked at Goldman Sachs with no work experience prior to that point because he was a good investment banker. Do you think Michelle Obama sold a 10 foot piece of land to Tony Rezco for $300,000 because thats what it was worth? Come on Clara, this isnt good versus evil they are all somewhat evil under your rules.

I may argue passionately and have a strong opinion but I have never called you out or tried to make you personally look stupid etc and you know you did to me just for the simple reason that I might have a different opinion. Thats not a good neighbor.

Clara and John said it best. But I have one simple thing to add. Why are you blaming anything on illegal immigrants? Why don't you blame the people who are really responsible. They employers. They are the ones hiring illegals and who now want to reduce minimum wage. That way they can continue paying pennies. Only this time it's to legal residents.

The vicious cycle will not stop unless the greed stops. You get rid of minimum wage, employers reduce wages, they will hire even more illegals since they can pay them even less.

I write about behavior that is happening now as a result of high minimum wage laws so illegals getting paid under the table is what happens when minimum wages get too high for small businesses to afford to hire new employees without shutting down.................This is not true. Employers hire illegals to increase profits. If you notice, businesses that use illegal immigrants charge the same or higher for their goods or services as those who hire legally. It has nothing to do with staying in business and everything to do with greed. Illegal immigrants are being used as scapegoats.

If you remove minimum wage, people will still line up for low paying jobs if that is all that's available. They will now just have to work two or three times more to make ends meet, if possible, by working two or more 'jobs'. It will also affect higher paying jobs, since employers can now pay less across the board. This would be a boom for greedy employers, who will now take this country back to serfdom.

Just one example. A small business owner once complained how minimum wage affected her business. She wanted it lowered. When asked why, she claimed that she wanted to retire early and paying so much to her employees, prevents her from doing so. When asked how her employees would be able to live on less income, she had great ideas.........share housing, spend less on food and go to food banks, carpool, walk or take the bus, buy clothing at goodwill or salvation army.......all of this so she can retire early. Her employees should make sacrifices, so that she can reap the benefits. She did this in an interview on local TV. There is no shame attached to greed and selfishness.

Please reflect honestly,...the greedy fool comment came AFTER your righteous indignation,...I will now read the rest of the posts.

Kirk, in your response you claim we are calling you names. What names are you being called?

Because we state an opinion based on your opinions, it's now called name calling. You can't respond with truth? Saying you have personal reasons for getting rid of minimum wage is my opinion. You also have an opinion about USNavy.

Please, lets have a decent discussion without you wrapping yourself in the "victim" blanket.

I am not advocating any conservative either as they all have an agenda. Yes you are. You are doing so by bringing up all these things you can find to throw at Liberals/Democrats. You trying to eat the humble pie will not distract us from what you are really saying.

Kirk,

I don't feel you are being intellectually honest. There I said it. You are reducing my commentary to 'extreme' examples. Or in the matter of Haliburton - 'everyone does it'. I am giving you ACTUAL examples of GREED run amok and you are dismissing it. Here are some more examples - Enron and World Com,...the CULTURE of greed. You are simply NOT looking at these issues on a MACRO level. Do you have ANY idea how many manufacturing jobs left this country between 2001 and 2009?

And I KNOW I can speak to the issue of vouchers and charter schools. Kansas City, Missouri has some of the worst schools in the country. There are only a COUPLE of models of successful Charter schools. I send my kids to private school; but I don't think my TAX burden should supplement that choice.

I may argue passionately and have a strong opinion but I have never called you out or tried to make you personally look stupid etc and you know you did to me just for the simple reason that I might have a different opinion. Thats not a good neighbor.

Well, I don't agree with your final characterization of what went down. You've not said or done anything to cause me to want to walk back my initial comment which was to point out that you appear to believe Minimum Wage is too high. I'll work on being a better neighbor; but I live in the urban core, not on the fringes, and the trajectory this country is on by blaming Teachers, Community Service workers (police, firemen, etc) and other unionized employees) while Wall Street bonuses get bigger and fatter is utterly preposterous. Continuing to oppress our middle class is ONLY going to continue to decrease demand. I don't see THAT changing anytime soon.

Fletch, I am not blaming illegal immigrants. I am not blaming anyone just stating the reality of what is happening now. I am not going to argue and tell you that there arent bad employers but I disagree that employers are all bad actors. I grew up in one and no we didnt earn enough to come close to being rich so each increase in minimum wage made me and my sisters work more than pay additional wages to someone else. It came right out of my families pocket that made it more difficult to afford anything above a lower middle class lifestyle. Employers arent the scapegoats either as there are bad apples everywhere. As for greed stopping, have you read history--good luck on stopping greed as it drives the world so you need to live within the constraints we have not fight an uphill battle. Not all success is bad either. Dont you want to be successful? Dont you want to work hard and be rewarded for it and be able to afford your kids college education, etc? Again, I think you are using extreme conclusions that arent supported by any historical consequences as for every time wages are suppressed by one corporation another corporation has to increase them to keep pace with the market and the skills needed for those particular jobs. You guys keep acting like corporations are some evil person that acts in some nefarious manner when its just a legal entity set up to employ people to provide a service, manufacturer or sell a product. Do you think Dunkin Donuts is evil because it provides a service for a price? Is a hotel corporation evil because it provides a product that you can choose to stay in or not and if you dont do it well you go out of business as so many have? Competition in of itself can increase or decrease wages. I will give you an example in the hotel business and you tell me which is bad. For example a Marriott hotel is not owned by Marriott its managed by them and probably owned by a local person. Marriott runs the hotel for this owner and in some locations the employees are union and some they arent. In union hotels, the housekeepers probably make between 15-20 dollars an hour and by contract only clean maybe 12-13 rooms. By and large most employees are white or black and will be housekeepers for their entire career unless they become senior housekeeper. The payroll cost at this hotel is probably at least 50% higher and productivity at least 33% lower than the non union hotel and Marriott needs to charge $20 dollars a night more at that hotel to provide the owner enough profit to pay its debt, real estate taxes and insurance and after all is said and done the owner probably is going to make 7-8% on its investment. Hardly big time moguls here and certainly never enough to open up hotel number 2. In the non union hotel, Marriott probably pays 10-12 dollars an hour to the housekeepers who clean 17-20 rooms a piece and the workforce is asian and latino because the unions wont take them or culturally its easier for them. Here Marriott can charge less per room and still provide even more to the bottom line and this owner will roll his returns into opening up hotel number 2 thereby increase jobs employment and the american dream. If you look at the hotel industry, retail like dunkin donuts, gas stations you find this same example over and over with these owners expanding and succeeding (by and large asian immigrants by the way who couldnt be more appreciative of the chance to work hard and get the american dream you would like to deny them). So which company is evil in this example? The owner of the nonunion hotel that suppresses wages and keeps the man down but opens up more hotels thereby increasing jobs in the bed, construction, furniture industries to outfit the hotel? Is it the owner of the union hotel that cant find customers to pay enough room rate for his rooms to get enough return to open up hotel number 2 but he is certainly paying a living wage to his employees? Furthermore, those lowly nonunion employees that were working for 10-12 dollars an hour when they started as doorman, food and beverage, housekeepers have now all been promoted to work in Mariotts regional offices because of hard work and merit and are pulling down salaries of 50-100,000 dollars a year 10 years later. Those union employees are making the same as they did 10 years ago except with cost of living increases and they still do the same job except with seniority and better hours. These are real life examples and I am not taking a position just saying that just calling corporations evil is a waste of time because its far more complex than that.

OK Fletch it wasnt names it was making assumptions and making demeaning comments regarding my positions or beliefs without having a clue. Stating I am a greedy lawyer raping my poor clients and trying to send people back to serfdom. Do you think thats a bit of hyperbole? You dont think that would be offensive as calling me a name and using the art of trying to destroy me personally rather than change my mind? Come on if you really are serious you have to understand better than that. Plus I never said I wasnt biased towards fiscal conservatism, I keep saying that over and over. I said that I am not aligned with any particular liberal or conservative agenda or platform because there is too much about both platforms that I totally disagree with. Not everyone fits in the square hole you guys are creating and I think there a ton more people like me than you think? I dont think the democratic crushing in 2010 election had anything to do a particular party. It was all about fiscal conservatism which created the tea party movement and people disagreeing with the direction of fiscal policies of Pelosi etc. I think the majority of americans would probably be right down teh middle and not for the social policies of the republican party and I feel that those of us who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal make up the largest portion of the electorate we just dont have anyone to represent us ha. Neither party or its partisans allow it because for one person its abortion that causes them to vote for one party or its the deficit and they are stuck with the political positions of the entire party as a result which really sucks.

Clara, I dont excuse Enron, Worldcom Haliburton at all and hope they get whats coming to the individuals that caused all that pain. I just believe that those companies are the extreme and the sins of a few cause the whole to get punished. Just think of all the good people working in those companies that lost their jobs because of a bad leader. But think of all the good things many other corporations have done to create jobs and be good corporat citizens. I like to praise the many for doing good rather than focus on the few bad ones and use that as my model to believe everyone is like Jeff Fastow or the Tyco leader. Look at Warren Buffet and the good he has done and all the corporations he owns. So I still think its extreme to come to the conclusion that all corporations are evil because of Enron.

My wife, mom and sister are teachers although my mom is retired. I have no ill will against teachers but you just cant say with a straight face that the teacher's union has not been a roadblock to educational reform. I love teachers and have no ill will but its a problem and I dont know if charter schools or vouchers are a solution. I do know I am not afraid of trying something different. We all know parental involvment and lets face it DNA make up a big part of how we turn out academically but its not politically correct to say that so we blame teachers I completely get that. But whats wrong with discussing change from the status quo?

I know you feel its a mischaracterization but you made assumptions about me based on my opinions that arent accurate and maybe if rhetoric was lower we could learn something from each other. I dont blame teachers, firemen, policemen but at least here in Illiniois we have a problem. Their nonsalaried benefits are a huge problem and its irrelevant to the banker's making all their money. I am not defending bankers making those bonuses but we are worried about a gnat and discussing an issue that at best affects a few thousand people. I am all in favor of fixing and aligning interests back up in the financial world but our other issues have far greater impact. Here in Illinois, I dont blame the teachers, policemen etc because they bargained for these benefits and now someone wants to take them away. But now they dont want to change the system and reduce their benefits going foward. Thats just untenable and not financially possible in Illinois so its just a matter of time before something breaks. Pointing this out and wanting government pension benefits to be market consistent does not mean I am advocating for the stone ages. At 55 in my community, a policemen and fireman will retire with fully paid medical and a pension benefit that will give him the average of his last 3 years pay (which is currently around 110k per year after 30 years on the job) at 75% for the rest of his life. He then can go get another job to supplement this and collect pension and medical. Thats consistent across our state and there isnt enough money no matter how much you tax to pay for it so someone is going to get impacted. California is in the same position and those are economic realities so I dont know that me being fiscally conservative is evil in that context.

Please don't try to defend employers. This country promised that if you work hard you would reap the rewards. Not true as long as we have unscrupulous employers. The notion that if you work hard all your life you will be successful and able to provide for your family, is no longer true for very many people.

I know for a fact that there are very good employers, that the welfare of their employees is a priority. They are few and far between. I am one of them.

Every time anyone criticize the wealthy and do not agree with the way they use others because of greed, someone comes to their defense claiming how we hate success and the wealthy. Greed will always be here, we don't have to support it with everything we have. Getting rid of minimum wage is one way to support greed.

No matter how you twist it, the bottom line is that most corporations only run their company based on the bottom line. They will sooner cut an hourly employee, than reduce the CEO's salary. These days CEO's are making at least 200 times more than their lowest paid employee. Even though they NEED these employees for the company to survive. The most successful CEO gets his ideas from front line employees, but never give them credit. If you do the research, you will find there are more bad companies than good, when it comes to the treatment of their employees. Now getting rid of minimum wage, will result in lower wages for middle class and higher for the wealthy. Now employers will pay less for unemployment insurance, yet contributes more to the unemployment line. I could go on and on about how companies benefit.

As I said before we will go back to serfdom.

Sorry but I am going to defend employers because your perspective and experience are just that your perspective and experience. I am not going to defend some CEO's salary and how much they make compared to the lowest person because your talking a few hundred companies on the Fortune 500 list. The vast majority of employers arent on that list and are very good bosses just like there are some horrible examples of middle class employees. Since my family had a small business and I worked for a Fortune 500 twice and now partner with someone on a small business, I have some experience thats just different than yours. If I judged all employees by the minority that steal, lie and just lazy I would be doing the same thing as you, lumping them all in one category. Good employers are not few and far between but most of us are trying to make an honest living and your right we dont have to support greed to exclusion of everything else and treating employees with respect and dignity but you cant escape the fact that the bottom line is important. I really dont care about the minimum wage as it doesnt really impact the middle class--read the studies. It impacts teenage employment dramatically downward and it impacts the wages of entry level jobs thats it. Those arent the jobs that are making the difference in your large corporate world of abuse. If you look at the research and there is quite a bit, you will find a ton of companies that apply for and are mentioned as great companies to work for so I have done it and actually participated in it. Nobody is going back to serfdom thats a red herring that prevents us from having an honest debate.

I am not sure what you mean about working hard all your life you will be successful is no longer true for many people? I dont get the context you mean? Is it because they didnt save? Is it because there are no pensions just 401(k), what jobs or industries are you referring to? You ignored my evil corporation example with the hotels I see because it wasnt convienent for you to answer my question was it? I dont know how many times I ask inconvienent questions or address the questions or points you guys raise, whether its you, Clara, John, Navy American First and the reply I get goes on another tangent without ever addressing the issue. Although to Clara's credit I think we are getting along much better and actually responding to each other in kind on the same topics. But Fletch you got mad thinking I was preaching to you about abortion and you just preach to me about bad employers without ever responding to my answers or questions.

As for evil CEOs can I ask you how much you think they should make? If they make less what happens does that mean that you want that savings to go into the pay of the employees or do you want it to increase the value of the company to its owners or public shareholders which are all the mutual funds, union pension funds endowments etc? What is your fix to avoid these problems?

The Lord do work in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.

Hiya IR! You provided a much needed boost of your homegrown wisdom this morning!

The Lord has moved on from mysterious to down right bizarre! ;o)

IR:

Morning good to see ya back. Great post to start an interesting week. We may hear this week from President Obama on how soon he is going to get us out of Afghan.

Hi Ya Red Whats my favorite lady been up to?

Hi Ya Red Whats my favorite lady been up to?

Missing YOU! Good to see you back! ;o)

To even win a nomination in this country, you have to say you’re a person of great faith. You have to pledge the people out there that you put your faith in things that are unable to be proven — that you suspend critical thinking as the way to go. - Bill Maher

Remind you of anyone IR mentioned? lol

Yes, We here in MN know that God indeed has a sense of humor. Bachmann keeps reminding us of that quality of God.

IRV. Nothing new, republicans have been using God as a bumper sticker for years. But as more Americans see what the Ryan budget plan has in store for the American middle class, they stand no chance in hell of reelection.

Woim When you come up with a question that makes sense and put it in the right place I would be more than happy to answer it.

IR, It is good to have you back.

Good to be back lisa s. Hows things in your world. Coming up roses I hope

I always wondered about that, IR--when the pitcher and batter are both praying--what does God do?

Well, howdy, IR! Man have you been missed!

I gotta' ask you to go easy on WOIM. It's his BIRTHDAY here on the vine. Just born this morning. Anyone want to guess at which BANNED poster he formerly was?

The incarnations of hate can NOT be silenced. They MUST be heard! (or something like that).

Hey, I got a big ole package Saturday; but simply haven't had time to crack it open. Thank you MUCH for that and I will be in touch. Give Ms. Elly a hug!

Anyone want to guess at which BANNED poster he formerly was?

Hmmm... let me think? LMAO!

I would expect a knock on their door by the end of the week...

IR: so glad you are back, and loved that post. Nothing in this world like an IR post to start the day. Made me smile. I was just saying how I missed your Friday DDI posts! Was such a great way to end the week.

Clara KCMO

Anyone want to guess at which BANNED poster he formerly was?

Read your posts also. Truly, impartial and totally objective.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

I would defend Feisty a thousand times over the insipid spiteful 'teachings' of novalue new jersey

You could insert Clara instead of Feisty - GF!

You KNOW I'll ALWAYS have your back!

*HUGS*

Your colors are showing.

WOIM,

If I were you, I'd worry less about MY colors and more about your banned status.

PS. I guess only Republicans are allowed to 'dump' on Fridays? You people are the party of RETREADS. Probably time for you to MOVE ON! George Soros has a site you should check out! ha ha

Good! I wear my TRUE BLUE right out front. You know, I've never been banned from First Read, so I'm curious why you care that Feisty is one of my dearest friends here? Green monster choking back the bile for you?

No point block quoting last week's news. Anyone who cares to know how I really feel about NoJo,...can just review last week's The Week Ahead. No mystery here.

I am curious why you can't manage to stay away. You've been banned, so why do you care?

Clara KCMO..

At least you came out and stated why you posted what you did and why. You're no hypocrite.

The rest of the cowards who attacked NJNB are in hiding, especially Navy, who speaks from both sides of his mouth.

He can't defend his actions when called out by FR posters so he ignores it.

It's not going away. A lot of people are tired of the constant insults and name calling.

The FR moderators may not care, but a lot of others do.

Oh little woim (worm) go back under your compost heap. My feelings about NoJo are also on record. Go read my posts over the year I have been here. They are also out in the open for all to see. And yes, I did support Feisty Redhead. She did not say anything that many of us were already thinking. You are the one who is being the hypocrite here.

I will respond to those people I want to and not some keyboard thug just trying to bait an arguement. My posts stand on their own. I feel no need to defend anything to you guys, period.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired.

Let's analyze this, ok?

You start with an insult then say you support Feisty's comments. She did not say anything that many of us were thinking. Were we thinking she needed to bring in her NJNB's family and husband? Sexual conduct? The rest, blah, blah...oh, who are you guys? The ones that question your integrity? Yeah, that's us. Still no answer to muffingtop's question. I don't want to speak for you so you want to say you think the responses were appropriate?

Again:

You wrote:

"You cannot refute the truth so you try to intimidate people. Well is does not work.

You have been exposed and as a liar and fraud on this board and what you have to say carries NO weight at all."

This coming from the man who claims so be so virtuous, above it all, a definer of the truth and protector of our liberties.

Saw your posts defending Feisty in her personal attacks against NJNB.

Sorry sir, but it is you who are the liar and the fraud and a hypocrite. You profess to be for free speech but when someone who disagrees with your point of view posts something you disagree with, you find it acceptable to attack her personally as well as her family. Attack what she said, not the poster. You demean yourself, and everything you supposedly stand for. You become the hypocrite, the liar and the fraud.

Answer the question posed by muffintop1:

Navy do you condone Feisty's references to another's husband and family members? Is that what this forum is about, calling out people's family and sex life..."hubby getting it on with a bitter old broad..."

You might want to justify your comments in the light of day, not 5 threads and 8 hours old.

STTS! ;o)

IR, My world is good, Spent the day on the beach in N.J. My loved ones are still in harm's way. one left Germany a few months ago for the first strike in Libya and was then sent back to Iraq for his third tour. We are asking way too much from our military.

I really enjoyed the debate between Sen. Durbin and Lindsay Graham on Libya and Afghanistan on Sunday's Meet The Press. I mean "enjoy" in that my brain was firing all through it all. It's amazing to see Democrats and Republicans debating our role in the world militarily, trading dove/hawk positions, and, oddly enough, appearing to be on the same side, at times.

In fact, the whole show was first rate this week, including the round table. Even Paul Gigot, the talking head for the Republican side, made some insightful remarks. I loved how he observed that Republicans only question our taking military action when the President is a Democrat.

At the end of the show, they were debating whether America is on the decline. Truthfully, I thought to myself ,"as long as Americans debate amongst themselves like this, we are going to be fine." Kudos to David Gregory for facilitating a great show. Meet the Press is turning out to be an example of freedom of the press at it's best.

Holly:

Well written. Short and to the point. Keep the posts coming I want more.

Hi yourself Holly. You must be one of us Godless Heathens that believe that God is more concerned with taking care of the Elderly and the Sick than making a profit on the endeavor.

Grand Moff Joseph:

Rachael Maddow had a great piece last week on her show exposing Perry for the fraud that he really is. He did not create the utopia in Texas that he claims. In fact he made it worse. He fought against the stimulus money but took $6.4 Billion Dollars and used it to balance his State Budget (like T-Paw also did) and then claim that he balanced the budget. In fact Texas relied on the Stimulus money more than any other state.

Go figure - Oh and Rachael said evrytime you hear Perry's claims think of a tube of "Baloney". Kinda sums it up.

Hi Navy,

Perry is a clone of that other Texas Governor known as W.

I agree, "VOTE FOR COMMON SENSE IN 2012!" Vote for President Obama and the Democrats.

Nash:

We do not hear anything about the "Middle Class" either. Just more proposals each one worse than the one preceding it on Tax Cuts for the Millionaires and Billionaires. Soon we will see one where Millionaires and billionaires will be exempt from Income Taxes, Capital Gains/Dividends and Estate Taxes.

Navy, I'd like to add an exemption for Real estate taxes, SS taxes, Medicare taxes, State Income Taxes, Sales taxes, Utility Surcharge, Gasoline Taxes, Phone access charge, etc. etc. etc. etc. I paid about $27k in taxes last year not including sales taxes. X's 2 for my wife. I'm not sure how it happened but over the last 200+ years the USA became a giant insurance company with an Army......

Another word that was not mentioned at last week's debate was "education." I guess they just aren't that interested in those things.

Why is it someone elses responsibility to educate you or your kids?

UAW Please:

Your daily posts reveal you have no standing to comment on education. Seriously.

Come on Nash, you can do better than that. Don't start petty insults.....

That's right, Nash:

You know the petty insults can only come from Right to Left - don't go messing with their playbook.

Educated folks know that in America, we read from Left to Right, though!

UAW Please:

If you only you held your own posts to the same standard as you hold mine . . . you add nothing but noise.

Your right in the past I've posted things of a personal nature towards other posters. It wasnt right to do that....

UAW,

I take extreme issue with your education comment. Yes, parents have the utmost responsibility in ensuring their childrens education is received. However, our public education system is not something we can get rid of (not that you said we should persay) Our public education system fosters a national identity, standardizations ensure that we are learning what we need to be succesfull, and your statement makes it sound as if you'd dismatle the whole system and privatize it (which, again, you didn't say directly, I just don't know how else to interpret it...)

our collective education gives our country more benifits than just educated citizens....

Ted, I know in most cases a public education is a good thing and it takes taxes to pay for those things. You sound like someone who would step in if your child wasnt making the most of that oppurtunity or an educator wasnt making the most out of your student. (I would say most educational problems can be traced back to the students home enviroment) As far as a college education just like healthcare those costs have sky rocketed. Why? Excessive government involvement. Let's say Jr. couldnt get $100k+ in government gaurenteed student loans payable over several decades. Would it still cost $100k+ for a college degree? Probably not, out of neccesity colleges and students would adjust the cost to what a kid can actually afford.

UAW

come on,...you've got it figured out, so why are you okay punishing the very people who need the help the most? If EVERY child must be born; but there are RARE situations to remove a child from the home and the home life SUCKS,...who's looking out for the kiddos falling through those cracks? Isn't there a predisposition for them to perpetuate the poverty cycle? Don't they need a hand up?

And the reason College Education has sky rocketed is the infrastructure. Take a spin through your old alma mater sometime. I was down in Norman last summer and I could NOT believe the additional buildings/schools and overall size and scope of the little ole school. That kind of capital improvements cannot happen without capital. And let's face it, the Booster Club can only boost SO far.

Now if we would take that commitment to infrastructure on a NATIONAL scale, I think we could really turn this economy around. This idea that more tax cuts can do anything for it now is PURE fantasy.

PS. Student Loans are not the problem,...but thanks for playing.

Clara, I did take that tour thru the old alma marter. You are right infrastructure is a huge problem. But in the small town where I am from the population is shrinking. We have to much school for to few of students. (it doesnt help that some of the more liberal parents decided to raise taxes to build a college class gymnasium just 5 years ago) We really need to merge with the school district in the next county. Throwing more money at the sick horse isnt going to get smarter kids. But I did get the letter from the school board asking to help raise $100k to help pay for teacher salarys so we could get better teachers....

That's your measuring stick?

DaNoid:

I will give you three guesses.

Then why don't you just take your swoop and poop bucket and go someplace else. I assure you we will not miss you one iota.

Have some cheese with your whine?

Always...... you have to take the mind set that this is a comedic review! They dont realize they are the minority! shhhhhh they will get it at some later point! For now just sit back and enjoy the humor!

US Navy. I like to hear different points of view. I don't have to agree with some posts but I think trying to get those posts off this board is silly.

They get up early. Why does that bother you so much. I never post first, I have barn chores, and I am not the least bothered by who is up first. Maybe we should just let the Conservatives go first every day so we quit hearing about this.

Is there anything MORE priceless than a post from the 'bootstraps' crowd WHINING that someone got up earlier and BEAT them to the first post of the day?

Geesh, you'd think we didn't have REAL problems with all of this First Read conspiracy. Of course, getting the first post off on each thread requires EFFORT. Us Dems know who the REAL hard workers are,...right?

Yes, a nice cambebert would be lovely with the copious amounts of whine being spilled on this topic. PRICELESS!

hungrymongoose

This is just a left wing article to bash one of the Republican front runners who will be elected next year TO GET US OUT OF THIS MESS.

Romney was a corporate raider who made the big bucks by taking over companies, firing employees, and shipping their jobs overseas. Massachusetts was ranked something 47 out of 50 for job creation when he was governor. What is it on his resume that indicates he'll get us out of any of the messes that his fellow Republicans created?

Republicans are just fine tuning all of their clear WAYS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OF THIS COUNTRY. How could you go against that?

SHOW US THE PROOF ON WHAT THE GOP/TP HAS DONE TO MOVE THIS COUNTRY FORWARD OVER THE LAST TWO PLUS YEARS. SHOW US THE PLANS FOR CREATING JOBS IN THIS COUNTRY, SHOW US THE GOP/TP PLANS FOR STIMULATING THE ECONOMY AND FHOW IS THE GOP/TP GOING TO IMPROVE EDUCATION.

You talk a lot but you offer nothing just another talking head from the right. When are you guys going to wake up and start thinking for yourself.

JUST SHOW US THE PROOF OF YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE, COME ON YOU CAN DO IT, WE ARE WAITING!!!!

Navy what are you talking about? Eliminating Obamacare would reduce the deficit and clearly create more jobs but I realize its a social agenda you dont agree with. Stoping the stimulus, stoping the minimum wage hike, reducing the funding to all the regulatory agencies such as the EPA (cap and trade) the stupid consumer protection Czar, fixing medicare, tort reform, putting tax money in the hands of people who will spend it wiser than the government and these are just a few of the bills that republicans have brought up in the last 2 years to try and get this economy moving. Instead, why you dont you tell us what the democrats have done in the Senate or Obama has done and if anything how that has worked out so far?

By the way, the republicans constantly are trying to improve education and guess what who stands in their way but the largest contributor to the democratic platforms--THE UNION. So dont give me that crap that they havent done anything. Have you heard of a concept called merit pay, or getting rid of tenured bad teachers or vouchers so our less priviledged can have the same educational opportunities as the rest of us but constantly rejected because the teachers unions are afraid of losing their jobs? Come one tell us what the democrats have done in education except raise the cost of education without any actual educational benefit?

As I wrote last week, the so called GOP/TP Party Debate came up short with any substantial ideas on how to create Jobs in this Country, how to stimulate a slowly improving Economy and nothing on what they are going to do to help our failing Education System.

Instead we got a bevy of old lies about the HCR Law (Affordable Care Act) signed by President Obama. Back in January of this year I did a 3 part series on the HCR Law namely in that it is not a Job Killing Bill nor is it a Budget Killer either. You can go look these posts up as they address the following lies in detail.

The Congressional Budget Office said the Affordable Care Act will kill 800,000 jobs. This is not true and comes from a misrepresentation of the CBO report where The Congressional Budget Office that last August had estimated that the new health care law over the next decade would reduce the number of overall workers in the United States by one-half of one percent, which translates into 800,000 people. But that’s not the same as saying it would “kill” that many jobs. This is a reduction in the supply of labor and the JOBS did not disappear. What the CBO did not include in their report was the number of these jobs that would be filled by new employees which would substantially reduce this number to boot. The example giving was to think of someone who is in their 60’s, a few years before retirement, who is still in a job only because he or she is waiting to get on Medicare at age 65.

Bachmann made the false statement that the HCR strips out $500 Billion from Medicare. What the HCR Law did in fact is as part of their cost containment (something the GOP/TP keeps avoiding) they redid the Medicare Advantage Programs which is basically a redundant program that only benefited the Insurance Companies and very little if anything to add any benefit to Medicare. It was nothing more than handling the same paperwork that the Government already had to do.

Medicare is not financially solvent. FACT: Medicare is fully solvent until 2024. After 2024, the hospital fund will still be able to meet “90 percent” of its commitments. Part of this extension in the life expectancy of Medicare (by 9 years from previous estimates) came directly from the cost cutting in Medicare Advantage Programs as noted above - $500 Billion.

The claim that Paul Ryan’s Medicare plan is “identical to what seniors already have. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It’s not. The government currently pays 74 percent of costs in Medicare Part D and grows that support at the rate of actual program costs. Ryan’s plan covers about a third of beneficiary costs and puts the rest of the costs on the backs of the elderly. Under the Ryan Bill beneficiaries will pay on an average about $6,000 more for the same coverage (and over time this number will drastically increase), and that support grows at the rate of inflation only which is only a fraction of the real double digit increases we have been seeing over the last decade plus in Health Insurance Costs. Over time the elderly, especially those on a fixed income, will find themselves in a position of paying 40-50% of their retirement dollars on Health Care. This is wrong and they just will not be able to afford it and hence no insurance. And yes, some senior citizens are going to die from the lack of proper medical care, period. The Ryan Bill is the one that has what is effectively a “Death Panel”.

The Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) will ration care to seniors beginning in 2014. This is the old “Death Panel” lie that has been debunked from the beginning. What the IPAB does is it kicks in if health care spending goes beyond a certain threshold and is statutorily prohibited from rationing benefits or increasing co-pays. In fact, Paul Ryan - even supported a more aggressive IPAB-type reform in 2009

This is just another example of the lack of any meaningful plans (ideas) from the GOP/TP. They are running away from their campaign promise to create jobs, stimulate the economy and improve education so they are going back to the HCR Law debate with the same lies as before. Too bad, we deserve better from our politicians. During the debate this week did anybody here the words “Middle Class”? (thanks Jody).

The bottom line is the GOP/TP does not have a plan to replace the HCR Law. They do have a program that if you are under 55 you will not get Medicare and/or Medicaid as we know it today. You will get a program that raises your current costs to a point over time that you cannot afford so only the wealthy will have Health Insurance and you can forget the Low Income, the sick and disabled from having anything. Class Warfare is alive and well in the halls of the GOP/TP, we see more proof every day.

[Sources for my opinions]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3366

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3362

Side note: Looks like the demise of Collective Bargaining is now a fact in Wisconsin as we all suspected would happen with the right wing Supreme Court voting 4 to 3 to support the law. This could be a driving force to really fire up the recall elections this July or not. We will know soon.

The proof is that your still the minority, I mean really if you were the majority you would not need proof, you would know!

Navy, then please respond to the Wall Street Journal article from last thursday citing the recent update on your statistics and it indicated that independent studies show 85 million people losing employer provided coverage and that the bill will cost trillions more. That the bill used wrong methodology and incorrect assumptions and as more comes to light, the cost and impact of the bill are untenable. Your statistics are old dated and unless you claim that the Wall Street Journal lies just plain wrong.

Kirk: the republicans constantly are trying to improve education

How can you write that with a straight face?

The Republicans are constantly attacking education in every form and from every quarter. Whether it be public schools, planned parenthood, climate change, intelligent design, rewrintg history and revising textbooks. Whether it be student loans, funding for the arts, funding in general. Republicans also celebrate those who twist the facts and the truth, people like Palin, Bachmann, Perry.

Spare me your pretended concern.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Navy writes at the end of this huge post:

[Sources for my opinions]

http//www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3366

http//www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3362

That about says it all.

Hey you want to answer the questions that were posted above?

Dearest Woim:

Your attempt to distract attention from the actual issues and dominate the comments with discussions of other poster's will not be a long term success.

You are the latest in a long line of whiners who cannot refute the truth, and resent the close knit group of posters here at First Read who highlight the truth each and every day. And we will continue to do so, without your consent or approval. And we will not apologize for supporting each other and sharing our opinions as we see fit.

So thanks but no thanks on your posts to nowhere.

Fieldon, what do any of your problems with republicans have to do with education? virtually everyone of the items you raised are differences of opinions on topics that with a broad brush you generalize and sweep us all into some category of disdain. I look at each issue before making up my mind so do I agree with every social republican platform issue of course not. In fact, I probably disagree with most. But as a fiscal conservative, I can disagree with the democratic platform and have a debate. I could say that the teacher's unions have had a significant negative impact on the value of today's education and I would be right by virtually all objective reviewers. Its the republican party that has pushed for smart educational reform and to attempt to try new and different methods and ideas instead of just doing it the same way we have for the last failed 50 years. Who puts up the roadblocks of change--the democrats who are in the pockets of the teacher's unions. your response makes no substantive sense just partisan acrimony.

Rick Perry for governor? Look at his self serving hatchet job in education alone. Let's see what his track record looks like in the jobs department after the massive amount of teachers effected hit the unemployment lines. Then let's also look at the overall Texas economy crater after that. Right now it may look a whole lot better. After all not every fact has been weighed in. How timely of Rick Perry .

A registered republican voter who will NEVER vote for Rick Perry

You got it Houston!

Slick Rick doesn't want to micromanage cell phone texting/usage while driving, but has no problem micromanaging a womans reproductive rights!

Go figure!

Slick Rick doesn't want to micromanage cell phone texting/usage while driving, but has no problem micromanaging a womans reproductive rights!

And the right wing lemmings continue to lap this 'stuff' up!

chilled

Slick Rick doesn't want to micromanage cell phone texting/usage while driving, but has no problem micromanaging a womans reproductive rights!

Well, they say they won't force a woman to look at the sonogram. She can avert her eyes. But apparently, she is not allowed to just close her eyes. Maybe Perry will force women to keep their eyes open with using clamps like the ones they used on that guy in Clockwork Orange when the state was trying to reprogram him.

Slick Rick and his croanies probably are heavily invested in the 'medical imaging' business.....

Florida (Mr. let's defraud MEDICARE governor) has passed legislation similiar to this Texas law.

Personally, I'm looking for the Open Container of my misspent youth. That one is just seriously TOO much government and not enough personal FREEDOM!

I mean JUST because I have a BEER in my hand doesn't mean I'm drinking it. I am just holding it for a friend. PS. That wasn't my 'stash' either.

Look Houston, if women didn't use abortion as a birth control method we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. Abortion just as welfare needs a cap!

Kingwood, I'd like to turn your 'logic' on it's cracked little skull.

Do you really think any woman that uses abortion as birth control would be a FIT parent? Really?

the "secession attack" is completely taken out of context by liberal wing nuts

Yes Gregor,

It is obvious that the deranged libbies are searching for any little wedge issue to attack any and all of the fine, American-born, Republican candidates. This is libbie fear setting in.

Last November still haunts them. And the funniest thing is, they STILL DON'T GET IT.

Gregor-3291968 ...........the "secession attack" is completely taken out of context by liberal wing nuts...

So, Gregor, did Slick Rick not utter that remark, or in the usual GOP/TP fashion was the comment 'not intended to be factual'?

Either way....'red meat' for the rabid!

He stands zero chance against Obama, so I'm not even worrying about that traitor Perry.

Edward,

Kate, no racism intended. The Republicans....all of them are Obama's intellectual superiors........Burying your head in the sand and lying to boot, is the mo of republicans. You might not have intended for your racism to show, but it did, blatantly. Calling Republicans intellectuals, is like saying a jackass has wings and can fly. Totally impossible but anyone can say it.

He should leave our White House by the back door. (slink away) As he has no honor.......Do you even know what honor is? You are a pathetic and yet you are allowed to post here. I am sure slinking comes naturally to you and its your only form of movement, so it's only natural that you think others do as well. They don't.

Stupidity comes in all colors.....Especially in your color, so you assume everyone is the same. Not.

Your ignorance is so obvious, it begs the question, do your masters beat you every hour or only daily? Whichever it is, they have certainly removed all your brain cells, you poor thing. Maybe you can go to Nicaragua or Dominican Republic where I hear the have some of the best cheap doctors. They might be able to give you a partial brain of a monkey,which is much better than what you have now.

Seems like moderates have no place in the GOP any longer.

they do and the Tea Party is much more inclusive then the liberal media would have you believe. Ultimately you will see conservatives, Tea Party, Republicans at large, independents and even some Democrats come out against O'bama for his failures. Remember last November, Part 2 of 2 coming in Nov 2012

You may be right Greg, but that's not how it appears.

Jeff

I agree with you that he may be the one with the best chance if the right assumptions are made.

But then again........

lots of people voted for Obama simply because of skin color.

he promised much and has delivered little.

I think Herman Cain should get the nominee and then lies his ass off like Obama did.

He'd win in a landslide.

Jeff-299070

Please bring on Rick Perry, haha.

Especially, since Rick Perry is a tenther; he wants states rights. So really Rick Perry won't be President of the United States; rather, it would be the Divided States

Rick Perry IS A JEFFERSON DAVIS wannabe he embraces secession and the Confederate.

Rick Perry is still fighting the Civil War. He really needs to know the Civil War is OVER!!!

Hows things at the Rham it Inn?