The GOP/TP continues its DRACONIAN Assault on the Citizens of Wisconsin. This week after the special election for a State Supreme Court Judge, which was bought and paid for by the Koch Brothers, that put the incumbent GOP/TP hack back on the bench, he overturns a previous ruling that the State violated the Open Meeting law, which Wisconsin did. This is important for several reasons. The first is that this is another example of the GOP/TP defying the law and doing what they want. Second, other States are now going to pick up the same DRACONIAN attacks on their people as well.

http://www.alternet.org/story/151305/seven_ways_scott_walker_and_the_gop_are_still_trying_to_screw_wisconsin%27s_poor%2C_working_class%2C_and_just_about_everybody_else?akid=7115.274064.tYfz5t&rd=1&t=2

“Wisconsin governor Scott Walker has taken a machete to the state’s budget and has clearly relished every swipe he’s taken to social programs and civil rights. The spirit of the enormous protests that sprang to life in February over Walker’s proposal to ban collective bargaining is stronger than ever. Thousands of people descended upon the Capitol this week to protest both Monday’s State Supreme Court decision to reinstate the collective bargaining ban and the governor’s proposed two-year budget, which includes hundreds of millions of dollars in cuts and is currently moving through the legislature”.

“Everything from health care to the right to vote is under attack and with the next two-year budget currently under debate and a slew of controversial bills at different legislative stages, terrifying changes loom for 5.5 million Wisconsinites. Here are seven ways Wisconsin Republicans are waging war against the poor and working class people of Wisconsin”.

Read the whole report at the above URL. This is what we are going to see more of now and until the 2012 elections. Hopefully WI can undo some of these DRACONIAN ideologies come this July when 6 GOP/TP State Senators come up for a recall election along with 3 Democrats. Time will tell if Wisconsin can win Democracy back for their State. Here is a recap of the above URL:

1. “The proposed budget contains so many terrible changes to BadgerCare, Wisconsin’s low-income health care program. Among the worst is a proposal to drop men from the program entirely, and a proposal to require parental consent before minors can get birth control pills”.

2. “A program to help adults with disabilities live independently faces an enrollment freeze in the new budget, which will leave nearly 17,000 men and women throughout the state without vital resources over the next two years”.

3. “Different cities have different housing needs, right? Not according to a bill introduced by the State Senate. The measure would prohibit local governments from making laws related to landlord-tenant relationships. According to Madison’s Capitol Times, the bill would void a law that prevents landlords from discriminating against potential tenants because they are on public assistance”.

4.” Scott Walker isn’t just targeting the city-dwelling poor; a budget provision would force the University of Wisconsin System to return $37 million in grant money that was intended to provide broadband access to rural communities”.

5. “It makes sense that Wisconsin’s child labor laws would be stronger than the federal government's; the state has a long and proud history of protecting workers’ rights. It’s also no surprise that Walker and company are looking to repeal those laws”.

6. “The Voter ID law that Scott Walker signed at the end of May is his evil genius masterpiece. What does a wildly unpopular governor facing a recall by thousands of highly motivated voters do? Pass a law disenfranchising the people planning to vote against you! Wisconsin used to have some of the most liberal voting requirements in the nation: same-day registration, no ID required. Starting in 2012, voters will have to present a valid driver’s license or approved photo ID before being allowed to vote”.

This is another example of how the GOP/TP is not concerned any longer with Democracy as we know it. This is a blatant attack on the Citizens of Wisconsin where Walker and his mentor the Koch Brothers are declaring open “Class Warfare” on their citizens. The Middle Class, the low income, unemployed and women are seen to be “Second Class” citizens in the eyes of the GOP/TP. And mark my words, the other GOP/TP controlled States are going to follow these attacks and some may even be more repugnant than these.

I have been warning people that we did not have to worry about an attack from a Foreign Nation, in that this country was going to be destroyed from within. Well, the destruction and carnage has started and it will get worse until we take back our country from the failed ideologies of a Party that thinks we now live in the 1930-1940 era of Europe.

Speaking of Presidential candidates…

Watching Hardball last night I was reminded about this incident of how ’Mittens’ handles the family dog. You can only imagine how he’ll treat Grama!

It’s a cruel – cruel summer…

The incident: dog excrement found on the roof and windows of the Romney station wagon. How it got there: Romney strapped a dog carrier — with the family dog Seamus, an Irish Setter, in it — to the roof of the family station wagon for a twelve hour drive from Boston to Ontario, which the family apparently completed, despite Seamus's rather visceral protest.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1638065,00.html#ixzz1PRZQqdsg

Followed by this explanation from Romney:

"He scrambled up there every time we went on trips, got in all by himself and enjoyed it," Romney said of the Irish Setter.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Judging from the dog cr@p all over the car, I would fathom to say Seamus says otherwise… lol

No doubt these kinds of actions will surely will Romney the PETA vote!

As usual, great post Feisty.

The GOP honeymoon is over... lol no one needed a poll to tell us that.

How' bout that Mike Pence using tax payer dollars for a fund raiser?

On Monday night, he dined in New York City with some of the Republican Party's most prolific donors and power players. It was an intimate, off-the-record dinner party hosted by conservative magazine The American Spectator, held for roughly 50 guests in a private room at Brasserie 8 ½, a sleek French restaurant in midtown Manhattan.

Instead, the majority were New York-based Republican political donors who, as of the appetizers, had yet to become donors of Pence's. The most prominent among them was the controversial billionaire and Tea Party-backer David Koch, who was seated at Pence’s right hand for dinner, a position equal to his stature: Koch’s family foundation is one of the largest donors to The American Spectator, which operates as a 501(c) 3 non-profit. The contributions to the Spectator are tax-deductible, meaning the dinner itself was subsidized by taxpayers. To Pence’s immediate left was Bob Tyrrell, founder and editor-in-chief of The American Spectator.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/15/mike-pence-holds-top-secr_n_877693.html#s292582&title=Rep_Mike_Pence

Uggg, those anti-tax haters, the nasty Koch Brothers. Thy really know how to pull off a useful scam to fool the people.

Thanks Tom!

Pretty encouraging numbers if you ask me...

Let's turn on the music and watch the poll dancing from the right begin...

They have 2 LEFT feet but are funnier than hell to look at! ;o)

*popcorn*?

Mornin' Feisty,

Yup, Slick Rick is the typical Teapublican.......Lying all the time!

The MSM gives him a pass and only briefly mentions the huge deficit in Texas, not his other draconian policies that he has passed with the huge majority of Teapublicans in the Texas legislature.

New Orleans, for the GOP Leadership Conference? Wow...The Big Easy has lots of trappings for the religious far right!.....Will they manage to stay on the straight and narrow!

Feisty:

It never changes with these guys and we wonder why the NBC/WSJ Report is so negative on the economy. What do you expect when one Party says no the everything, holding up over 400 Bills in the Senate, some of which would have created Jobs here. Like the $50 Billion Dollar Infrastructure Bill that was blocked.

At least the report (poll) shows that President Obama is holding his own in some very trying times and the American people are not holding "Our President" responsible for the mess we are in. It appears that the many Americans are putting the blame directly where it belongs. At the feet of the previous Administration.

The GOP/TP does not have a viable candidate against President Obama. This election is going to be all about the Economy. Where have we heard that term before and we have seen over the last 2+ years that the GOP/TP is not interested in creating Jobs in this Country nor are they interested in stimulating the economy. In fact they are betting against America, kinda like the Mortgage Guys in Wall Street.

Never have I seen a Politcal Party be so happy evey time we get bad economic news. America, this should tell you something.

Three Pictures on the Wall:

I'm told that at the Obama campaign headquarters there are three pictures hanging on the wall: Pawlenty, Romney and Huntsman. It's obvious that the Obama camp believe one of these three will be their completion in 2012. But I'm not so sure they have the right three. At this point in time I would be taking down Pawlenty and replacing it with Bachmann, plus adding a frame without a picture.

Although a devout progressive, I do have some Republican friends and I would ask them: Did you watch the debate? Who do you think won? Who will ultimately be picked as the GOP/TP standard bearer? Their answers were interesting.

They did not like the "twins"; Romney and Huntsman: both Mormon, both handsome, both about the same age. Some think Huntsman is trying to hide his Mormon background by announcing his candidacy at the Statue of Liberty, not in Salt Lake City. Plus Huntsman's campaign headquarters is somewhere close to Disneyland in Orlando, Florida will be a major battleground state for Republicans. With their crazy conservative governor, a moderate may have a chance. But again, the Tea Party is active in Florida, so who knows?

Back to the debate: My friends thought Michele Bachmann won the debate, and they would vote for her. I had to ask a follow-up question: Do you think she could win? Maybe some primaries, but not in the general election against Obama. So why is she running? The loud, clear answer was to be the voice of the conservative right. It's about principle, not winning.

Now we come to that frame without a picture. My friends do not like any of the GOP/TP candidates. They yearn for another candidate. When asked who that candidate might be? The names Huckabee, Christie, Bush, and Daniels surface, but alas the frame remains empty.

NYT is reporting that Weiner is stepping down. His office is closed and all phone calls now go to voice mail.

NYT is reporting that Weiner is stepping down.

I figured once the wife got home it would not take to long...

PS: Good to see you this morning chilled! ;o)

Good! Now that should no longer be a distraction. Let's talk about all those Republicans who voted for the Ryan kill Medicare bill.

Bev: Thanks for spotlighting Mike Pence's fundraising activity. He is indeed a Tea Bagger.

I wish Slick Rick takes the 'bait' and decides to run for President......With his ego, how can he not!

Reportedly even Texas Republicans do not support his run....polling at only 3-5 percent!...not sure if that's because they believe that he is doing such a stellar job in Texas, and want to keep him, or if it's something else (they haven't got his replacement lined up for the governorship).....

Afterall, Slick Rick took the reigns after W.....and been there since!

GOP honeymoon over without creating a single JOB bill. This is a FAILED congress. Clueless one for that matter.

Good morning Ron Indiana

Plus Huntsman's campaign headquarters is somewhere close to Disneyland in Orlando, Florida will be a major battleground state for Republicans. With their crazy conservative governor, a moderate may have a chance. But again, the Tea Party is active in Florida, so who knows?

Now we come to that frame without a picture. My friends do not like any of the GOP/TP candidates. They yearn for another candidate. When asked who that candidate might be? The names Huckabee, Christie, Bush, and Daniels surface, but alas the frame remains empty.

I think, with that last little stunt Florida Gov. Rick Scott pulled having his Republican henchman and local sheriffs remove any Democrats and other "Liberal Looking" seniors from a recent townhall event Huntsman has a better chance. Seniors are yelling hands off my medicare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1qmPjzQ2Us

Plus, his Republican budget signing rally he cut nearly 4,500 state jobs, reduces spending on public education and slashes health-care reimbursement, removing Democratcs, and pulling children out of school to indoctrinate and his 29% approval I'd put my guess on Huntsman.

Staffers and Republican operatives searched the crowd of about 200 looking for people holding anti-Scott signs. They were noted and asked to leave. Those with pro-Scott signs were allowed to stay.

When Scott was finished, a man in a tea party T-shirt began encouraging the children to chant Scott’s campaign slogan, “Let’s get to work.”

http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2011/05/27/at-budget-signing-rick-scott-indoctrinates-our-kids-and-kicks-out-non-supporters/

“Why did he indoctrination the school kids; I wonder?

http://www.usbusstation.com/article1008969/charter_school_kids_bused_to_gov__scotta�™s_republican_budget_signing_rally.htm

I copied the link about Florida t-bagger governor indoctrinating school kids incorrectly. The correct one is below.

http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2011/05/27/at-budget-signing-rick-scott-indoctrinates-our-kids-and-kicks-out-non-supporters/

If you want to see corruption at its finest, with the unions calling all the shots, look to California.

The Republican polls are not surprising. After listening to both the GOP debate and the GOP discussion on their ideas for the economy, it is obvious that their only plan is to turn the nation over to corporate interests. How long have we been hearing that "trickle-down" works...just give all those rich folks big tax breaks and they will create jobs? For over 30 years. Well, according to a CNN Money article, the average pay of the 99% of us have seen our pay actually decrease (adjusted for inflation) by about $400. So basically we have remained about the same. Unemployment has gone up and down and looks to stay up for awhile. But how have the top 1% of earners done? Very well thank you.

The sad thing is that no matter how bad the GOP candidate is, for many of them he/she will be better than Obama and they will vote Republican anyway. So get ready for things to get worse.

Well I see it's the Feisty, Navy, and Beverly show again ... Lefties commenting on that which they don't understand ... a GOP primary. They wouldn't vote for any that would win the primary anyway. Instead they are fixated on the "Honeymoon for the GOP" (after only six month for the House of Representatives lead) yet denying the failure of 2 1/2 years of any Keynsian Obama aproach to the economy.

Oh ... the wailing of the Left.

Any disappointment in the field is only how long we have to wait for the election in 2012.

here's to turning the Donkeys out to pasture in 2012!!!

We're probably more likely to see Romney convince Palin to be HIS VP, so he gains from both sides of the GOP fence. Inside the GOP this would seem to be a win-win situation. However, the Palin piece is not likely to gain any independent or Dem swing votes, which could lose him the general election.

So now that the Libs have decreed it. Since all the Obama economic team has resigned, we shouldn't expect any new ideas on the economy. Basically all Barack's people gave up and abandoned the ship. Just how long will Rep. Wasserman-Schultz be telling America that all the Democratic economic plans have worked and we are well on our way to a glorious recovery. Hey, she could have been Baghdad Bob with that propaganda. Do these people ever look at the economic numbers. We are a hair breath from dropping back into recession. Now that Ryan has introduced his plan the Democrat do all they can to block it then say the Republicans have no plan. Do you ever get dizzy spinning that fast.

@dont: Quinn was pretty straight forward BEFORE the election. He said he would have to raise taxes to cover the deficit. Unlike the Republicans, he realized that balancing a budget takes both sides of the equation, revenue and expenditures.

I don't know anything about Scott. Is he the former health care industry executive whose company committed fraud ?

thetotas

If you want to see corruption at its finest, with the unions calling all the shots, look to California.

Corruption is working for crumbs like a slave without a union.

Navy Vet Retired, good post. My oldest son is on the Board of Directors for United Wisconsin, they currently have 188,062 "pledges" for recall, and that is just one of the many groups working on the recall. The State Supremes, 4 to 3, (that's 4 Repubs and 3 Dems) decision to push the budget bill into law, was the last straw for the people of Wis. They are so angry and fired up now the Repubs in all offices should be watching their backs. Now the Repubs are running fake Dems in the Recall elections to force a primary, and publicly stated they were doing it. They may have won the battle, but the war is just beginning, and the people are really standing tall. On, Wisconsin!

Phew! Great work lads and lasses Feisty, Navy et al.

Will only add the latest knockout about FEMA. Mr. Romney believes that FEMA is "immoral".

FEMA helps out people just like me, you & anyfolk walking on the surface of the USA in troubled times of flood, tornado and catastrophe. It's officially immoral now to save lives and care for others?

Bev,

Have you been to California? Unions have taken over our government and they will not stop until they get ever last cent the tax payers have.

More income earners are leaving California and then where will they get the money. The unions need to stay out of state and fed workers business, simple.

the honeymoon is over is an understatement ... we the people have filed for.. divorce .. from the GOP/TP.. the GOP/TP has shown they have no use for we the people and have no need for democracy .. there agenda seems to be.. protect the rich at the expense of ..Seniors..women ...education.. and the working middle class

Comments like that at 1.24 should be collapsed, and the poster banned. Moderators, do your job. I have flagged it, I hope others will join me.

Beverly: thetotas has a naive understanding of the problems CA faces. She was, apparently, frightened by a union worker while in her crib. She, like many of the undereducated, repeat what they hear, not knowing that it is nearly impossible to create responsible fiscal policy due to Howard Jarvis, and the ease with which special interests can get issues placed on the ballot. I am quite sure that she, and others voting in CA have little understanding of what they are voting on.

Unions are the problem? Really, everybody knows that people making a living wage is what destroyed the economy. Get a clue Thetotas buy a vowel or something, go join a union, it will make you feel better.

Is the Obama Honeymoon over yet?.....oh wait.....I remember now.....it was over on 11/2/10 or just 7 short months ago when the angry American Majority went to the voting booths and handed the Democratic Party their worst "shellacking" (according to Obama) in 60+ years and kicked several busloads of "do nothing", "spend money we do not have" Democratic Congressman out of Congress........yep....the Obama and DEM & LIBBER honeymoon is geuinely over.......and the "divorce" is coming on 11/6/12!.......hey...is it 2 o'clock yet.....I don't want to miss the "Weiner Honeymoon Is Over Show"...either!!! Feisty and USNDVR......wants some pop corn?

DRACONIAN...DRACONIAN...DRACONIAN...DRACONIAN...DRACONIAN...DRACONIAN...DRACONIAN...

What a word.

1.

of or relating to Draco, 7th-century Athenian statesman and lawmaker, or his code of laws, which prescribed death for almost every offence

What a way to describe something you don't believe in. To relate the actions of the GOP in Wisconsin to death. Only a liberal, whining about the removal of a union action would relate this in this way.

Unbelievable - crying liberals, who don't see the ramifications of how the unions have done everything they can to break the budget of a state. A state that will go broke because the unions have demanded everything under the sun and gotten it. Now the removal of collective bargaining, the sacred cow of unions, has them relating it to death. Silly liberals!

Brian, I agree that lots of terms can be over-used.

To your concerns about the word 'death': Ending Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security, now on the top of the list of many congressional Republicans, will mean death to a lot of Americans. These are the real 'death panels'.

Partial list of GOP agenda: Zero job protections (you can be fired on employers whim), no unemployment benefits, no health care, no social security, no Medicare, no Medicaid, no family planning. Demanding that Americans hand over the little they have to the very wealthy spells DEATH.

Just talking about trickle-down DEATH.

Backhouse - speaking of death... what would you prefer? The death of our economy, or the death of a few programs? Since you are speaking in extreme terms, where are we going to get the money to support these very expensive programs? What happens when the money totally runs out in the government? How does that effect the nation as a whole?

I supposed you feel that reductions in medicare and SS are totally off the table. What would you rather cut? What programs aren't sacred cows to the democrats? How long can we sustain them without running completely out of funds to run the government? Right now, 40 cents of each dollar spent in the government goes to pay just the interest on the loans. That leaves a grand total of 60 cents to work with. What is YOUR solution? Defense? Sure, cut defense, but that may very well leave the country vunerable. Have you looked at a chart of the amounts of money spent by the government? I doubt seriously that you've ever done that. Social programs are the number 1 expendature. Defense is number 2. How is that constitutional?

Forrest,

I have been in a union for 8 years and I am speaking from my personal experience and I don't trust them. What do you have?

calm down newdaydawn I only used words that Bev has used herself, so it is no shock to anyone here and no we will not join you. sorry

No, I would not 'rather cut'. For example, GOP wants to dismantle and privatize Medicare, while Democrats want to strengthen and protect it for all our seniors.

No, I would not cut ordinary people one cent more. Check out what Republican governors are doing across the country under the pretext of cutting budgets.

GOP's only solution in the Senate is to keep on keeping on hacking up the 12% discretionary spending (non-military) part of the budget, when everyone knows it is revenues that are needed from now on.

Cutting the deficit, and debt-to-GDP ratio is a priority for all sides. This Administration has long proprosed a $4Trillion reduction in the deficit over ten years, but not by burdening seniors, or by cutting Education, Research, Innovation and Infrastructure. Certainly not by ending entitlements while 98% of us are recovering from the worst recession in 50 years.

For the near and long-term, it is critical that the middle class is able to spend money and put it back into the economy.

Yes, Wisconsin citizens will no longer be held hostage by do-nothing union parasites and their slaves the Democrats. Maybe you enjoy your tax dollars going to unsustainable, unearned, and obscene pensions, benefits, and salaries, but thankfully the rest of us don't.

Democrats want to strengthen Medicare? That's a nice lie but unfortunately Obamacare shaves half-a-trillion out of the program over the next ten years. So we have one party that wants to reduce Medicare and one party that already has.

Backhouse - Are you forgetting the $500 billion cut in medicare in the ACA? Who threw that into the mix? Here you are railing against the GOP for wanting to trim medicare by allowing it to be run by private enterprise but totally ignoring the cuts that have been put into law by the democrats. Is it selective memory? Not sure what the malfunction is.

What is included in the $4 Trillion reduction proposal Backhouse? Have you looked into what they propose cutting, or adding in taxes? The Ryan plan grandfathered reductions in medicare. It was a smart move to let the younger generation step out of total government control into something more palatable... but the democrats want total government control. But yet, the $500 billion in medicare cuts still stand... correct? Who's taking away from seniors? You might want to rethink your position.

For the near and long-term, it IS critical that the middle class is able to spend money and put it back into the economy... but, how can they do that when we have an administration that is anti-capitalist and will NOT support the free market to survive? We need jobs and this administration isn't allowing that to happen because of their policies.

I have been in unions for over forty years, since I was 17, in my current union over 35 years. I raised a family with a stay at home mom since I was 23, I have health coverage, (if I didn't I would have been wiped out twice, once with my wife's cancer and then with my heart surgery) I have a pension, a little nest egg. I'm gonna need both because I am old and beat to hell because I earned my money, my employers have to be the low bidder but they pay far more than the non-union shops that means we have to work harder and smarter than them, don't let anybody ever kid you about that. I was able to accomplish things I would not have been able to if not for the security of a decent wage and fringe package, for instance I have patents that I made a few bucks off of (I did not get rich but the extra income sure helped out) if I made low wages and no benefits I could not have risked the money to hire the attorneys to properly file a decent patent. My kids always had a full time mom in the house, always had someone to help with their homework, or just ride herd, we never had any problems with alcohol or drugs or anything those kids, they barely got a detention. I worked all kinds of hours and shifts through the years but their mother gets the credit she was always there, because I was paid well enough so she could stay there. That is getting darn near impossible for young couples these days. The honest truth is I believe with no reservations that the union helped me live a better life and be a better more successful person, husband, and father.

Response to 1.38: And yet, there it is...collapsed.

Beverly: When you are a congressman, it is not just the people in your party who are your constituents. Your constituents are even those who voted against you but live in your district. I don't know where they (the T-pers) get off removing anyone from any meeting. Look at the crap they dished out, the bussed in T-baggers, etc. at all the town halls regarding HCR. I think to remove a constituent is very un-American. They do not get to just have their supporters at their meetings. I hope we all rise up, pissed off about the way the President has been maligned, the way Democrats have been maligned, and help give our represenatives in the House and Senate some backbone. I don't know if they have it in them, but we sure should be angry, as angry as those fake T-baggers were! That's the way I see it, if they want to holler over everyone and slap everyone around and step on non-supporters heads, like the Rand Paul campaign did, then I really think they need to know we will not take it anymore. Plain sick and tired of it! And if anyone objects to the T-bagger term, tough nuggies. When they came out from under their little racist rocks (yes, racist) to lie about everything under the sun, they were the ones that had the little T-bags stapled to their little hats and hanging all over themselves, so what do they expect to be called but T-baggers. They've called President Obama everything but a child of god, so screw them. They've called everyone but themselves Un-American, Un-Patriotic, while they are the "true Americans", they have done things never before seen in a joint session of congress - Mr. "You Lie" Wilson. Sick of it!!! They have no respect for anyone, and why we are supposed to kowtow and tiptoe around them, I have no clue. Let's get it on.

NewDayDawning.....YOU TELL EM!......It's high time somebody drained the swamp on this board!

I nominate CathyM for shop steward.

Astonished, you'll be Astonished how things will not trickle down your way in 2012. lol

Brian, quite the list you gave me.

But now I know who is bending your ear ~ Ms. Bachmann herself.
Bachmann claimed that 'Obamacare' took $500 billion out of Medicare, shifted it to build a new entitlement for young people.
False.

1) The Affordable Care Act or Health Reform law, does not cut the Medicare budget. What it does do is slow the growth by taking out $500 billion from future spending over the next ten years. The reason for that is to help stabilize Medicare by a) ending overpayments b) slowly phazing in pay adjustments for better efficiency. Consequently, the law 1) extends the life of Medicare trust fund by 9 years and 2) enables seniors to keep ALL of their guaranteed Medicare benefits.

2) On April 13 2011, the President laid out his framework for a balanced approach to "achieve $4 trillion in deficit reduction over twelve years, based on the values of shared responsibility and shared prosperity". It builds on $1 trillion in deficit reductions in the President’s 2012 budget and the findings of the Bipartisan Fiscal Commission:

a) Domestic Spending Cuts: Building on past budget agreements with largest 1-year reduction in goverment spending ever. Cut non-security spending to levels consistent with bi-partisan deficit commision.
b) Security Spending Cuts.
c) Health Care Costs.
d) Tax reform.

See whitehouse.gov/2011//04/13/PresidentObama-s-framework-4-trillion-deficit-reduction for the breakdown details. Or read it in 'Speeches and Remarks'.
Realize that Ms. Bachmann believes whatever she said is true - right after she made it up and said it aloud.

3) When you say "anti-capitalist" you mean that you're in favor of de-regulation. GOP is trying to defund the Financial Regulation Law that they fought so hard against ~ even as we are recovering from the devastation in the wake of years of the financial free-for-all and crimes on Wall Street. Do your sources tell you about this Administration's successful outcome with the auto industries, and so far 17 tax cut for small business and others, etc.?

If the GOP came out and told you that they were anti-unemployed, anti-union, anti-social security,medicare, medicaid, anti-health care, anti-workers rights, anti-safety, anti EPA,clean air,water,food and medication, anti-financial reform,anti-womens health and reproductive rights,pro-war,pro-tax cuts for the rich, pro-corporate welfare,pro-monopoly, and anti-voters rights. Would anybody vote for them? .......* Crickets *

Politics was Incorporated to keep the Government intact.

Religion was incorporated to keep people intact.

end of story!

They have said it over and over, today's republicans are about whining and blaming other people for what they don't have instead of just standing up for themselves and the man next to them and fighting for a fair share. They kiss billionaires shoes and begrudge a workingman an honest days pay for an honest days work. They gave their wages and benefits away with right to work to laws, and frankly now they seem jealous of anybody that makes a decent wage and benefit package and yet they are proud to sacrifice their own family to lavish further wealth on billionaires who could not and will not spend their money in a hundred lifetimes. People who work for a living and still vote republican are sadistic.

Everyday it becomes clearer, The mindless sheep on this BLOG, all in for the Party message!

NAVY Retired, Feisty and all of the other PAID Bloggers, screw you! Your the problem!

Obama flat stinks, his policies favor only one side of the equation just like George Bush! Their all the same, paid for with the stamped approval of some lobby group.

I will no longer defend Obama on this BLOG, there are plenty of paid Bloggers on both sides to handle that. BTW how much do you get paid Feisty? How are you always first?

who was the last president to win reelection with unemployment over 7%? do you think we are headed for a stunning rebound of the economy? do you know that 25% ish of americans support obamas war in libya? do you think the value of the dollar will strengthen in a big way before the elections? do you really believe that the tea party is not in total control over who runs in 2012? the gop seems to still hold the key seats, but lacks the power, the tea party will replace the gop asap. do you really believe obama can run and win on his record with a real conservative challenger, not a RINO or so so conservative like romney who believes in global warming and wrote the model for obama care (romney wont be running)? you see, conservatives dont want romney, all though he is a fine man, 75% of americans think global warming is a scam, and that is one of romneys brick walls, obama care the other. almost all right leaning americans think people who believe in man caused climate warming are easily fooled, and wont vote for a fool. then there is ron paul, a medical doctor who has a good deal of democrat support as well as conservative. obamas blind support of the private federal reserve with TARP and QE1, QE2, and coming soon QE3 makes Obama and the FED weak in any debate with Ron Paul, and Paul wants to bring our troops home from all over the world, Obamas dem. base will take a good look at that, because thats what Obama ran on in 08, 5 wars now???? yemen, libya, pack, afgan, iraq. yea the weak republican field have Obama nailed down there. then their is Hermain Cain, a common sense successful highly skilled leader, business man, conservative man, moral man, and a black man. and the best part about Mr. Cain, hes bluntly honest and tells you what he thinks, knows, dosent know, and wishes to do. On top of that the Tea Party identifies with most all of Cains ideas, history and non PC personality. Bachman, this woman is so highly qualified, motivated, loves america so much, and is so well spoken without a teleprompter that the liberal media looks less and less important and objective every time chris mathiews says her name. Now the real problem Obama has with all of these folks, is that they decided not to run each other threw the mud, they are all going after Obama. I get the feeling these hopefuls had a meeting, which they all agreed that who becomes president is not as important as making sure that obama is not reelected. good luck mr president, run proudly on your record, obamacare, libya, QE1-QE2 + 3, EPA killing small business, the fall of the all mighty dollar, 3+ years of 9+% Unemployment, the decline of american status in the world, the rise of china who has us by the throat with no resistance, operation gun runner (that looks real good), Israel (hows the base taking that?), black unemployment skyrockets, black business owners suffer and decline, ( but Obama is helping, just ask the head of the black chamber of commerce, he has something to call obama...shhhh... he says obama is a Marxist, and is destroying black owned small business owners... dont say that too loud, OK? ) Yea Id say the reelection of Obama is a sure thing in a weak field of republicans.

Obama has about a half dozen shovel ready jobs, burying the current crop of republican candidates.

@ Thetotas

Forrest,

I have been in a union for 8 years and I am speaking from my personal experience and I don't trust them. What do you have?

I would suggest you get involved with your local union, run for a position of responsibility, fix what it is you feel is wrong, speak up and voice your concerns, or you should quit, you should not be complicit to something that you feel is so corrupt. There is nothing more wormy than somebody who takes part in corruption because the money is good, instead of attempting to correct what he feels is wrong, and then complains about "corruption". I would never suggest anybody take part in what they feel is corrupt, you should step up and be a force for whatever it is you feel needs changing, or you should quit, anything less would be morally and intellectually corrupt on your part.

It is stunning to see and hear the hatred for unions in this country.

I live here in WV, a company state owned by out of state coal barons. Here, the kids are not even taught about the mine war at Blair Mountain; how company and state police personnel manned machine guns against the miners who marched in protest from around the state. Our public schools tell the kids what a great thing coal is for them, as asthma rates are shockingly high in the same communities. They never hear about Sheriff Sid Hatfield, shot down by company thugs in broad daylight, because of his support for family and worker rights. Here in Almost Capitalist Heaven, parents, for years protested, filed suits, appealed to the media, and got nowhere as their kids attended elementary school sitting right below a massive coal sludge pond with a poorly-built dam. Many people here still remember the disaster of Buffalo Creek due to an identical pond and shaky dam. Finally, a California philanthropist (Annenberg) came forward with funds to relocate the school to safety. The GOVERNMENT did nothing.

THAT is what capitalist anarchy does for the people. Given total free reign, which is the end goal of conservatism American-style, these and other vast harms are eventually visited upon the citizens.

UNIONS stood against these such abuses in the Progressive Era. Many unions lost their way during the good decades after WWII, and abuses did occur. Undeniably, the list is long, those things unions did to better America's standard of living. They became corporate enemy #1, and have been pushed to the brink of irrelevance.

Anyone who think the unions are anything more than a minor irritation to those who control Trillions and own the federal government, is delusional. The moneyed interests would slit your wrists and drain the life out of you, if the returns were good enough.

Unions will prove to become, once again, vital as the last weapon against Social Darwinism and New Feudalism.

Dishonorable discharged navy man

The party of know didn't stop one bill from the dems in the last 2 terms of bush and the first two of odumbo, so how can you hold them responsible?? Spewing ignorance doesn't make it so. Typical lib cry baby tatics! It is their policies that destroyed the economy plain and simple. Liberalism is a mental disorder! We will see about 2012. It is easy picking for the reps over a proven incompetent odumbo! Hahahahahaha

Act 2, you blew right past "spin" and directly into lying. Republicans roughly TRIPLED the previous record of filibusters for one Congress. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35643530/ns/politics-capitol_hill/t/analysis-republicans-setting-filibuster-record/

Over 400 bills passed the House only to die in the Senate.

Not only does spewing ignorance not make it so, but willfully spreading ignorance is inexcusable. You're entitled to your own opinion, you aren't entitled to your own facts.

John B -- People like Act2 hear lies in the right-wing Echo Chamber, which appeals to the conservative profile, and believe it therefore must the true.

They really believe this crap because they don't know how to research for themselves--they can't discern what is a credible source (they think an E-mail from unknown origin is more trustworthy than science or academia or experts). If they found a credible source, they lack critical thinking skills and logical reasoning to recognize it's worth. Some of their conspiracy theories are so ridiculous even at face value, yet they believe it.

Look at that post. It is completely void of any information to back any vitriol in it. It is the epitome of "spewing ignorance." You use the Rule of Reason, so you think you can reason with conservatives like this. It doesn't compute. It's like the saying: Don't try to teach a pig to sing. Pigs can't sing and it only annoys the pig. In fact, the more you try (or insult them), the more entrenched they become.

It is important to tag them though, as we've agreed misinformation should not be left out there for the casual reader to sort through. Keep up the effort. Just know it will be never-ending.

Nice post David - but the Smiff critter is so yesterday!

We've been on to her & her shtick this for years...

I'll let you in on a little secret - before she became Joanna Smith1, she commented under the moniker selfish redhead!

Bravo, Mr. Walker... Well said...

Exactly right, David Walker. The damage done to the country by people like JS1 who constantly promote mis information as fact is immeasurable. One would think they would be more patriotic.

Mr. Walker:

Excellent post . . . nice to have someone else help debunk the "8% unemployment" lie. The ironic thing is that unemployment was already at 8% when the law was signed, and the estimates in question were written before the President was even inaugurated, so the entire premise is complete and utter BS. But hey, the media is too busy reporting on irrelevent foolishness to stop this lie from being repeated on the airwaves daily.

Selfish Redhead as a Moniker......that says it all......SELFISH!

David:

Well done.

Credibility is precious...once it's lost, it's rarely won back. Joanna's credibility is now zero. That's not my opinion...it's a fact you have clearly established.

Bill

David, excellent bit of writing. Thanks for taking the time to obtain FACTUAL material, and then to explain why it matters when someone lies here.

We have caught her here before. Both she and No Jo at times post links and then make outrageous statements - and when the link is really checked, the content does not support their wild claims.

Many of us now simply dismiss their posts because they have forfeited, by their own actions, any claim to credibility. Nonetheless, your post is important for casual readers here who may indeed not only be led astray, but (Heaven forfend!) repeat the gibberish as something reliable.

And oh, by the way, one of my pet peeves is the use of "facts" when the truth is opposite. If a "fact" is shown fale, then that word no longer applies. "My facts" vs. "your facts" cannot exist. Someone is lying, period. "True facts" is such an offensive redundancy I hesitated to even write it here.

Good morning, David.

You are 100% correct. As it has been proven by the conservatives, they are well known for making up their own facts to suit their base. However, they are so out of touch with reality that it’s down right shameful the garbage that they spread.

One of the biggest lies they tell is where they want small government. They actually want to control the masses and turn the running of the United States over to big business.

Anyone with a grain of sense can see through their plot.

David Walker

Whether you like or hate the dogma Smith routinely trots out in her posts, nothing is believable if she has no commitment to accuracy, fact, or honesty. Quotation marks are not some sort of literary device to be bent and twisted. They mean someone actually said exactly what is contained in those marks.

JoAnnaSmith is just imitating her heroes, such as the despicable John Kyl you mentioned. Monkey see, monkey do. All the Republican big shots have lied about that 8% unemployment figure, and they always get away with it on the talk shows because "journalists" never call them out for their lies.

But cheer up!. Our beloved Gubner Goodhair down here in Texas is going to have a National Day of Prayer in August to pray away the "debasement" of American culture. I'm sure after that, all the Republicans will stop lying. The silence will be deafening.

Job1:

I missed you. So good to see you back in the mud pit. Check your friends box.

Good Morning All.......Great post David Walker, this should be posted everyday at the beginning of every FR thread. It cannot be stated often enough, the lies that are spread on a regular basis is beyond despicable.

What motivates some people to do this? It is to me a form of treason. Thank you for posting this very well written and needed observation.

DW- please, do, continue flagellating the deceased equine. The spin, "Obama never said unemployment would be held below eight per cent" simply does not resonate with the electorate. They know too well that it was promulgated to shore up support for a stimulus package that cost, at the end of the day, in excess of $840billion- which stimulated nothing but the deficit.

Your hopes of convincing a no longer gullible electorate that the monies profligately expended by this administration, with the enthusiastic support of a democratic House and Senate, somehow occurred as an act of nature, rather than an act of congress signed by the president, are bound to be dashed. The very idea is as ludicrous as Gibbs' hope that the upcoming election will find the electorate "not affixing blame" for the poor economy.

The reality obamA is this: the electorate remembers the stimulus that failed; the 600,000 stimulus related jobs that were supposed to magically appear in the summer of 2009-that did not; the "Summer of Recovery" in 2010, that led to the "shellacking" handed to the democrats that fall; the stagnant economy and unacceptably high unemployment rate.

Moreover, the electorate understands that Obama has no clue how to fix the economy- that, instead, his ideas exacerbate the situation.

Take whatever comfort you will from the NBC poll, but ponder this- in September of 2010, their poll indicated that democrats would top republicans in the mid terms by two percentage points. At the most, with those numbers, the mid terms should have been a wash. They kind of missed the boat on that one, no?

Oh- and this: this pool of registered voters elected Obama over McCain by ten percentage points. Not exactly how that election turned out, either.

Spin away, but the spin is not working. Like the mid terms, this election will turn on the economy. Even Obama recognizes that- coupled with the poor fundraising results, it is having him give standing for re election a second thought.

Good for US.

I truly believe that Ms. Smith's employers feed her this garbage and misinformation she dishes out every day.

I also believe that she gets paid by each of her Blogs. The more Blogs, the more money. There seems like some days every other Blog is hers. I now just ignore and skip over her Blogs, they have no value.

Surly you remember this story from Ron Suskind

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

You David Walker and many of the other posters are living in a "reality based community", some of the others like JAS are making their own realities with the help of Rupert Murdoch. Those of us in the reality based community are left to judiciously study JoAnna's new and improved reality.

Thanks Ron, I just checked it.

Beautiful Reliant Stadium will never be the same after the Slick Rick Revival!

Hope the Houston Texans can get it cleaned up! lol

No Joe:

#2.12.

Amazing...a long post to defend Joanna without ever denying that she lied. Epic FAIL.

All your ranting does not change the fact that JS makes stuff up.

Where's JS1 attempting to defend herself...with more lies?

Why am I not surprised that the only person coming to JAS1's defense is No Joe? Why am I not surprised that rather than discussing David's point about accuracy and integrity, No Joe instead prceeds to criticize President Obama? I guess her motto is "never let an opportunity to be negative go by."

David Walker,

That's an amazing job you did. great post. JASI has always made a nuisance of herself by telling repeated bogus lies with every single post of hers and she's never going to change. LIES is the mantra of GOP.

All your ranting does not change the fact that JS makes stuff up.

NJNB has to attempt to defend JS1 - she's the second biggest LIAR on this thread!

See JohnA's post #2.7

Amazing when neither one of them has a shred of credibility left they continue to spew their 'tall tales' here daily.

Appears neither one of them posses a shred of decency either!

no joe, no bo, nj

DW- please, do, continue flagellating the deceased equine. The spin, "Obama never said unemployment would be held below eight per cent" simply does not resonate with the electorate. They know too well that it was promulgated to shore up support for a stimulus package that cost, at the end of the day, in excess of $840billion- which stimulated nothing but the deficit.

Nojonobo is another one who just makes stuff up (i.e., lies). I've seen absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the electorate "knows" what she claims they know. Repeating the lie about a promise never made by President Obama to keep unemployment under 8% doesn't make it true, no matter how many times the lie is told, or whether it's Mitch McConnell who's telling it or one of our resident serial liars on this message board.

David, I am not "coming to JoAnna's defense" but I did find an article to support her statement (in which I didn't read). I make the same mistake that every other critic of Obama's makes, I place his name in where it should read the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION... I find it rather nit picky of you to single out a certain poster, assault and accuse them of continuously lying. The same could be said of you and your posse.. A good example of that is every time MSNBC posts an article on Sarah Palin.. You people go bat sheet crazy, foaming at the mouth and tearing her apart like a pack of wolves.. Funny I don't see you writing a post calling those posters LIARS and you know very well that half of the trash they say about Palin is a lie....

If you will read the last sentence, in this link, you will see that it is BARELY TRUE but TRUE none the less...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/09/eric-cantor/Cantor-and-other-republicans-say-obama-promised-s/

no joe, no bo, nj

Woman

I have two things to say

1. I'm glad your granddaughter is better.

2. You're a liar and guilty of indocrination.

@Ellie Mae Clampett

I find it rather nit picky of you to single out a certain poster, assault and accuse them of continuously lying. The same could be said of you and your posse

I assume you'll quit your personal attacks and nitpicking then?

I read the link as just that barely true=a lie

And so we rule the statement by Cantor — and other Republicans who have said the same thing — Barely True.

Wow, Omega39, your post gave me chills.

I was just reading in the NYT's this morning (one of my last free articles for the month!) about allegations that the Bush administration asked the CIA to dig up dirt on a war critic, Juan Cole. Thankfully, the CIA agent pushed back, and refused to help, but you can see how the Bushies viewed the use of power.

PS Can you imagine the Obama administration asking the CIA for help smearing its critics? Me neither.

When a senior administration official says that

"That was a sharp contrast to the Obama administration’s forecast at the start of the year, which predicted that unemployment would not climb much above 8 percent and was widely criticized as unrealistic and too optimistic."

I am sorry he owns it. So if those exact words didn't come directly from his mouth, he still should take ownership of the chairwoman of the WH Council of Economic Advisers. Ms. Smith deserves an apology for all the name calling and attacks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/business/23outlook.html

As The New York Times reported on Oct. 22, 2009, "The Obama administration's forecast at the start of the year, which predicted that unemployment would not climb much above 8 percent."

Ellie Mae Clampett,

Thank you. I sometime forget that the people posting here are adults. I find it very juvenile and embarrassing that people can be so petty.

Obama administration made that statement, we get it. If Obama was any type of a leader he should have corrected that statement, but instead he allowed it. His administration, his responsibility. He owns its.

You can spin it anyway you want, but in reality we are at 9.1 unemployment and the economy has stalled.

So I guess that 8.0 unemployment looks pretty good right now.

Thank you David for your analysis. But, alas, people like Joanna Smith, No Joe and their feeble-minded ilk aren't capable of rational thought. They proudly wear their ignorance like a merit badge now that stupidity has become chic in their party. They are beholden to Baggas, a class of people who harbor unrealistic notions or possess an aversion to things factual. They relish their penchant for fabrication and predisposition to conspiratorial thinking, wild political concoctions and delusions. In short, they are simply loathsome! Some time ago it became clear that arguing with those types are nothing more than an exercise in frustration and you run the risk of witnessing your own IQ drop to perilously low levels by merely engaging them in political repartee! Stay strong. And, whenever possible, resist the urge to respond to their fabricated drivel with anything more than, "Bagga, puh-lease!"

Typical loony lefties getting real nervous and trying to change what this regime said. I - for one stand up for JoAnna and you lefty loons who are attacking her - a sense of decorum dictates I don't say what I am thinking. Even your new DNC dhair says that 0bama regime owns this economy, One term 0bama will be in Chicago for good Jan 20, 2013.

I'm not here to defend JoAnna on the 8% issue, she's quite capable of defending herself. But I am here to post some FACTS related to this issue that the self absorbed leftists overlook in their skewed bloviations.

On February 6, 2009 the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that the unemployment rate for January was 7.6%.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/empsit_02062009.pdf

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was signed by the president on February 17, 2009. At that time, the most recent unemployment rate issued by BLS was the 7.6% number reported for January.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ5/pdf/PLAW-111publ5.pdf

That was also the most recent unemployment number when on February 26, 2009 Christina Roemer, the Chair of Obama's Council of Economic Advisors made this statement in a briefing announcing the president's FY10 budget:

"Now, even with the comprehensive recovery package, the unemployment rate is forecast to rise in the first half of 2009, just simply because output is continuing to fall. We anticipate that it will average just over 8 percent for 2009 as a whole."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Press-Briefing-by-OMB-Director-Peter-Orszag-and-CEA-Chair-Christina-Romer/

So, the facts are that the official unemployment rate contemporaneous with both the passage of ARRA and Roemer's ill-fated forecast was 7.6%. According to my math, that number is lower than 8%.

Furthermore, I don't give a rat's a$$ if Roemer's statement was based on a study done before the president was inaugurated. The FACT is that on February 26, 2009 Roemer was a senior government official speaking for the administration on this point. Once she speaks (and the president doesn't publicly correct her, which he never did), then it doesn't matter if her words were based on a recently unearthed artifact on Easter Island. What matters is that she spoke those words in her capacity as a senior government official.

Speaking of JoAnna - where is she and the rest of the Chewowa gang today?

Takes more then a 'cat' to get that bunches tongue!

Bill:

Each and everytime you print that excerpt from Christina Romer's comment, you always leave out this that she said on the very same day at the very same time:

Now, as the professional forecasters at my own agency, the Council of Economic Advisers; Peter's, the Office of Management and Budget; and the Treasury, who contributed to the forecast, frequently remind me, we are economists and not soothsayers. And all forecasts are subject to a substantial margin of error. And surely in a severe downturn like the current one, which is the result of a once-in-a-century confluence of macroeconomic shocks, usual patterns surely provide less guidance than in more ordinary times. But we have attempted to base the budget projections on our best estimate of what lies ahead.

No matter how many different ways folks try to turn an ESTIMATE based on an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STIMULUS THAN THE ONE THAT PASSED into a PROMISE it simply is NOT TRUE.

An ESTIMATE is a BEST GUESS and a GUESS is NOT a PROMISE.

There is no need for the President to publicly correct an ESTIMATE because the very definition of an ESTIMATE indicates that it is a GUESS.

Now can ya'll please stop telling the "we were promised that unemployment would not go over 8%" lie?

It is a LIE because nobody PROMISED a $#@# thing.

I assume you'll quit your personal attacks and nitpicking then?

I'm afraid NOT... I do try not to PERSONALLY attack people but sometimes it becomes unbearably necessary.. And by nitpicking do you mean spelling errors, then I have news for you, I only nitpick about other posters spelling and grammar after they have PICKED over someone elses post and then continue posting the like. I would be the first to admit that my sentence structure and spelling can be quite atrocious. Or did you mean nitpicking such as; what's with all the bold type contained in every post you write? Are you afraid we've all quit reading your posts? Now that's a bit of NITPICKING....

I read the link as just that barely true=a lie

Is your dictionary up to date? I think yours is the only one I know of that the definition, under the word TRUE, says that it means false or in your case LIE... Now I'm not being NITPICKY or anything but have you thought about buying a new one (dictionary)?

John McCain never said he wanted to "bomb Iran."

Are you a certifiable idiot or do you just play one on FR?

I had forgetten all about McNasty standing up there blowing his nose! lmao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg

Bush never said he didn't "care about finding bin Laden and aren't looking for him anymore."

On March 13, 2002 then President Bush said, “We haven’t heard much from him. And I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don’t know where he is. I’ll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicususa.com%2Fen%2Fbush-bin-laden&ei=dCf6TZnaLILCsAOjkpTeBQ&usg=AFQjCNFH_ZeMD2MDWMNXqH25kgLWfNOAFA

You may now resume your normally scheduled activities in LALA Land!

RVZ:

I am not going to waste time posting any links . . . I am going to cut to the chase . . . you are a liar and each quote that you say wasn't said was said, and you know it. Desperation brings out the worst in folks . . . we have gone from claiming the President (or his Administration) promised stuff they didn't promise to you just making something up to try to change the subject. Not. working.

Nashville fan--

See my post 2.29 above. It explains everything that the Republican Baggas like Bill and RVZ on this blog have become adept at: selective, non-contextual excerpts posited as fact! I suggest letting them succumb to their ignorance. Natural selection ultimately assures that blind stupidity of that magnitude generally tends towards a shortened life span!

Ellie Mae Clampett

David, I am not "coming to JoAnna's defense" but I did find an article to support her statement (in which I didn't read). I make the same mistake that every other critic of Obama's makes, I place his name in where it should read the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

Nice try, but there WAS NO "Obama Administration" when on January 9, 2009 when Romer's report with the 8% unemployment estimate was released. Obama wasn't sworn in until 11 days later. And even if what you claimed was true, you're simply trying to divert attention from the fact that David Walker pointed out: JAS1 LIED when she put her own words in quote marks and attributed them to the president.

Bravo all!

This is the kind of high minded name calling and gang tackling ad hominem attack-fest that makes FR THE place for extremists on the left and right to flex their crazy muscle(s).

This will still be a burning topic when it comes up AGAIN in a couple weeks or (hopefully?) months...and it will

Feisty -

Thanks for saving me the trouble of going to get the quotes and links, I was just about to jump all over the liar's backside.

As for No Jo's long rant, it is filled with half-truths and outright falsehoods, but she continues to play the "failed stimulus" obligato above the main theme of "summer of jobs that weren't" theme - and both are easily refuted with facts. I posted most of them here last year before the election. I am not going back and doing the job all over again - if anyone wants to read the FACTS, just click on my name and check the list of articles and seeds. It's all there.

This thread got started with David Walker's excellent post calling JAS1 out on her falsehoods and manipulation of information to create propaganda. There have been some jumping in to "defend" what is in fact indefensible. Both JAS1 and No Jo have, as noted above, been caught often - and most embarrassingly to them, with links that never make the point they were trying to sell. NEITHER has any credibility, and it's a shame so much time is wasted deconstructing their garbage and that of their co-conspirators.

That said, I for one am going back to entirely ignoring them. What if they gave a war, and nobody came?

I was just about to jump all over the liar's backside.

I've come to the conclusion that the latest tactic from the Teapublicans is to keep repeating the same bullsh!t OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER AGAIN!

In the hopes people will just plain GIVE UP!

Not on MY watch!

Winners never cheat and cheaters NEVER win!

PS: You're welcome! ;o)

dangerfield:

Your "both sides" drivel is getting tiresome. One side is lying and trying to defend it and the other side is calling bullsh!t.

Those two things ain't equivalent, no matter how many times phony "independents" like yourself (also known as Republicans and corporate Dems who don't won't to accept responsibility for the bill of goods they sold us not working) post here trying to pretend like ya'll are so above it all.

Not cool.

dangerfield

This is the kind of high minded name calling and gang tackling ad hominem attack-fest that makes FR THE place for extremists on the left and right to flex their crazy muscle(s).

It's always nice when the guy who threatens to punch people's teeth out shows up to give us a bit of his sanctimonious insights about what topics are permissible and how other people should behave.

It's always nice when the guy who threatens to punch people's teeth out shows up to give us a bit of his sanctimonious insights about what topics are permissible and how other people should behave.

ROTFLMFAO!

I was going to respond to the little critter - but Nash & Houston did a FAR better job than I could of!

Looks like that 'reinvention thingy' you got going on dangerfield, ain't working out so well for ya? LOL

Houston, we have a problem....

Please read the paragraphs under "TRANSITION PERIOD".....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Barack_Obama

Nice try though!!!

I believe it is time to say goodbye. Almost the entire #2 string is aimed at attacking one lady poster with name calling and a few who came to her aid -- except me so I must be on most's ignore author. The attacks and name calling are without a doubt a violation of Newsvines Code of Honor but they continue to be ALLOWED. I have brought this to the attention of one of the so-called moderators several times -- especially since I was suspended for a day for calling someone an ignorant toad which was the first and only time I did anything.

Those of you who think you are high and mighty by trying to dominate this site and think you are the windows to the world are laughable. Your postings mean nothing to anyone outside of your little circle jerk group. LMAO The mutual admiration society you have created is also laughable. What is tragic -- and this will get me banned for standing up and saying the truth -- is the so-called moderators of Newsvine are spineless, gutless pieces of dog excrement (my apologies to dogs) for allowing, enabling and nurturing such vile behavior from people who are far from compassionate and can not hold civil discussions. This could be a wonderful place to exchange ideas and thoughts but YOU have let it mutate into the most vile form of political discussion and you should be ashamed.

Well, had I been looking for a pick-me-up tonic, I sure got it this morning. It is truly wonderful to know that there are those who actually believe that lying is indefensible. What I found surprising - I know, at my age I shouldn't be surprised by this - that some can actually defend dishonesty. As John A. notes, facts are true by definition. Outside a factual world, we have fiction.

"The Big Lie" became de rigeur during the Nixon Administration and has been a Republican staple since that time. Repeat the lie long enough and loudly enough and it is eventually accepted as fact. Please see Omega 39's post at 2.14 to see where the G.O.P. is comfortable - absolutely terrifying. For a more recent example, recall the attack on Wiki-pedia by Palinistas to make Palin's comments magically transform from fiction to truth. Look at what is going on in Texas where historical revisionism has plumbed new depths.

Remember Winston Smith of Orwell's 1984. Smith worked in the Ministry of Truth. His job was to re-write history to jibe with the Party line. The Party's slogan? "He who controls the past, controls the future." This spirit is alive and well in the G.O.P. We see it's manifestation in situational ethics. Recall the Cheney pronouncement that, "Deficits don't matter."

Nashville Fan, thanks for the context of the Romer remarks.

Truth doesn't fall into the horse shoes and hand grenades category. There's no "barely true". It's true or it isn't.

Ben:

Cry me a river. Joanna Smith is a certified liar and if folks telling the truth about her being a liar bothers you I am so very very sorry.

Not.

The time of telling lies and then hiding behind "both sides" are the problem style crap is officially over. Back up what you say or stop saying it.

P.S. I also think it is funny that you fantasize about your post being special enough to get you banned . . . too funny . . . Ben, you can get mad, but if you can't make your point without lying you don't have a point.

P.S.S. Ellie Mae . . . what is the difference between "barely true" and "mostly false"? Nice try, but no dice.

It's always nice when the guy who threatens to punch people's teeth out shows up to give us a bit of his sanctimonious insights about what topics are permissible and how other people should behave.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

It's pathetic when someone is so thin skinned that they keep repeating the same misinterpretation of a groucho marx quote where I offered YOU to punch my teeth out (Obviously in jest) made over half a year ago as a snappy rejoinder to my amusement with the silly partisan bickering over a statement made over 2 years ago...

Why, if you were a man you'd come over and knock my teeth out.' Rosten 'I -' Voice, 'And if you were half a man you'd knock half my teeth out.' Rosten, 'Who -?' 'And if you were a woman we could dance the night away in wild abandon.'

"It was many minutes before I could get Groucho Marx down from the high, demented plane he loved to inhabit. Then he revealed the purpose of his call. 'Free for lunch? Fine. Twelve thirty. I'll have a rose clenched between my teeth.'"

http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=13485

Well, you probably have the clenched teeth part anyway.

I find you, Nash, Feisty et al, to be silly partisans and no better than "fans" incapable of intelligent discourse. so you all descend into personal attack at the drop of a hat, topic be damned. The conservatives are as silly as the liberals to me. I know I am "touching a nerve" when I get such emotional responses from the usual suspects..

Those who peruse this blog regularly know who is who and what is what, as they say, and I am happy to let my statements speak for themselves.

I personally think that JAS1 is more than one person. If you look at the writing style(s) that are exhibited in 'her' posts, you will see three distinct styles.

1. The first style is pretty acerbic and accusatory, usually some right-wing diatribe;

2. The second style is snarky with an acerbic edge, with the occasional 'get lost' when the post(s) are challenged;

3. The third style is conciliatory, usually thanking people for something.

Sometimes, the people who post under JAS1 forget what they post when challenged, as evidenced in this exchange I had with JAS1 on April 26th: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/04/26/6533840-first-thoughts-in-and-out?commentId=20710409#

If you look at post 1.80, you can see where I point out what one JAS1 writer says that contradicted the other. Kinda like 'Good cop', ' Bad cop', 'worse cop', and 'Damien' all rolled into one.

Therefore, I do not ever put any regard or weight after any JAS1 post because I know that these people who are using this moniker are just trying to stir up trouble. They never have any solutions to any problems, but they do have a 'witty' retort to what someone says.

As always, you can make up your own mind. David Walker is absolutely right in his assesment of JAS1, and like David, I have all of the writers under JAS1 on ignore.

dangerfield-

So...

Which is it?

Republican or corporate Democrat?

lol

Tough call.

The responses to your comment only validate its central theme...but, you knew that they likely would, didn't you?

You have way too much fun at First Read, dangerfield.

MB-

I am reminded of the classic episode of Taxi, "Reverend Jim; A Space Odyssey" where Rev. Jim must answer the basic quwestions on his his drivers license application...

Bobby Wheeler: "Mental illness or narcotic addiction?"

Rev Jim: " That's a tough choice!"

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0035982/quotes

Yes I did...and yes, i do...:)

dangerfield:

If First Read is so silly and pointless and partisan, what is it that draws you in? The only difference between me and you is that you pretend to be neutral, while never ever saying a word about all the right wing lies that are spewed. So what we have here is a conservative in independent clothing.

Same for you Mixed Bag.

Beautiful thing is . . . I am open to all ideas . . . if they are reality based and truthful. For some reason, many of the "conservative" posters here are unable to meet that standard. But hey "both sides" do it, right?

Whatever.

Ellie Mae Clampett

Houston, we have a problem....

Please read the paragraphs under "TRANSITION PERIOD".....

No, YOU've got a problem I think you hit your head on the bottom of the ceement pond one too many times. Better have Granny take a look at it. A transition period is not an administration, despite your desire to force words with commonly understood meanings mean what you want them to instead.

Well I see CU Farley is back under a new moniker. Hey I thought you were tossed off the board????

RVZ:

If at first you don't succeed . . . call people names! lol

I didn't know that "he was joking" negated stuff that people said! My bad! Bombing Iran is so doggone funny! I mean, technically you are right, those folks did not say word for word what you scrawled in your original message.

You win an empty feeling and a false sense of entitlement.

Congrats! :o)

See ya'll lovely people tomorrow . . .

Dangerfield

It's pathetic when someone is so thin skinned that they keep repeating the same misinterpretation of a groucho marx quote where I offered YOU to punch my teeth out (Obviously in jest) made over half a year ago as a snappy rejoinder to my amusement with the silly partisan bickering over a statement made over 2 years ago...

It's amusing that Dangerfield, being the self-proclaimed arbiter of the quality of posts on this message board, rates his own thuggish missive as a "snappy rejoinder." He blew his stack and crossed the line. Now he's trying to deny it. At least he's on topic. The subject of this thread is, after all, lying.

Dangerfield has got as much right lecturing people on Internet etiquette as Anthony Weiner.

to reiterate;

"you all descend into personal attack at the drop of a hat, topic be damned. The conservatives are as silly as the liberals to me. I know I am "touching a nerve" when I get such emotional responses from the usual suspects..

Those who peruse this blog regularly know who is who and what is what, as they say, and I am happy to let my statements speak for themselves.

RVZ555

Crusty Givehead

Man, we know already you are a re-registration of a formerly banned poster. This over-the-top, gratuitous filth certainly shows why you were banned before.

I'll give you credit in one way - you split hairs about as finely as a Spanish lawyer. But splitting hairs only diverts from the truth - that the substance of the comments discussed show you are fundamentally lying. And just recently I had the great pleasure of seeing an appeals court judget hand a lying, hairsplitting Spanish lawyer his head, too.

Unless you you just want to get yourself off, no need to reply. You are on 'ignore." Just hang around the gutter to find someone else to splatter with your self-defeating garbage.

Well looks like fiesty left a few "sh!t for brains" off her repetative list! Oh that's right, she was referring to the "sh!t for brains" only and not the hypocritical "sh!t for brains"....

Very funny Houston... You can call me names and make stupid remarks all you want.. I've been called and told worse from better people than you... Listen, reading comprehension isn't really your forte, is it?

dangerfield-

While weighing the validity of the various descriptions of you here at First Read, it's useful to remember that only a few days ago, former NBC White House correspondent and the current host of Meet The Press, David Gregory, was described as a Republican "shill".

Similarly, I seem to recall that Howard Fineman, late of Newsweek and now with The Huffington Post, was described at this site as a "conservative" journalist. Dana Milbank of the Washington Post has been referred to here as having a right-of-center political stance.

But my all-time personal favorite was earlier this year, when one of the regulars at First Read declared that Media Matters "is not biased"...about two months after the NY Times' David Luo wrote on November 23, 2010 that the CEO of Media Matters, David Brock, was exploring ways to funnel cash to the Democratic Party for the next election cycle through the Media Matters Action Network, which does not disclose its donors. Now that's what I call even-handed.

So sorry, but, the descriptions of you as a Republican(!) or a corporate Dem aren't all that surprising.

They get lots wrong here, and at a pretty impressive clip, too.

WOW!....You all should just listen to yourselves......DANG......you all sound like a bunch of relatives from a large family who hate each other and your having a family gathering here today to let us all know just HOW MUCH you hate each other! Man give the rest of us a break willya. This FIRST READ board has geninely deteriorated into something comparable to a 2nd rate TV reality show! No wonder Obama's approval rating is tanking!.......Can't you all just try to get along!..........................for crying out loud!

So I guess Time Magazine and the NYT got it wrong too.

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1910208,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/business/01leonhardt.html

In closing, I'd like to use a little metaphor to highlight a 'Barely True' statement:

All of the Republican Men (sic Independents?) on FR are boneheaded, mysogynistic jerks with penises.

When splitting hairs about TRUTH, perhaps we can at least have a few laughs, right?

You guessed right Bill . . . nobody at any time every promised anyone that unemployment would not go over 8%. Period.

Hmmm... I wonder if the RNC sent poor Joanna home today without pay?

Come out - come out where ever you are darling....

Bill Fairfax VA:

So I guess Time Magazine and the NYT got it wrong too.

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1910208,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/business/01leonhardt.html

Correction: One person writing at Time Magazine got it wrong. What Bill is doing is committing the logical fallacy called an "Appeal to Authority", in this case Time Magazine. As for the NY Times article, either Bill didn't read it or he's misrepresenting it. The author concludes:

There are two possible explanations that the administration was so wrong. And sorting through them matters a great deal, because they point in opposite policy directions.

The first explanation is that the economy has deteriorated because the stimulus package failed. Some critics say that stimulus just doesn't work, while others argue that this particular package was too small or too badly constructed to make a difference.

The second answer is that the economy has deteriorated in spite of the stimulus. In other words, the patient is not as sick as he would have been without the medicine he received. But he is a lot sicker than doctors realized when they prescribed it.

To me, the evidence is fairly compelling that the second answer is the right one. The stimulus package does seem to have helped. But its impact has been minor — so far — compared with the harshness of the Great Recession.

That author is making an attempt at a fair assessment. You could argue about the extent of the effectiveness of the stimulus being greater or less than he thinks. But he is not lying about promises President Obama never made.

alwaysfaithfull

This FIRST READ board has geninely deteriorated into something comparable to a 2nd rate TV reality show! No wonder Obama's approval rating is tanking

You're sure doing your bit to speed along the deterioration process. And for your information, Obama's approval rating is holding steady at around 47% and he's still beating all the Republican wannabe's by 6% or more in the polls. What reality show are you watching? It's apparently a little short on the reality part.

Its so easy to be a bully and call someone a liar and focus on some character issue rather than the substantive issue. The idea that the nuance in the statement made by Obama's team meant that one of the posters is a nasty liar is ludicrous. The idea that you attack Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann for slips of the tongue and brand all republicans liars and all fiscal conservative posters liars on this blog petty and mean spirited. You would rather focus on the nuance of the 8% statement rather than the fact that none of Obama's financial policies have worked for whatever reason it can be blamed on. You want to call republicans liars and say elections were stolen by the Koch brothers but you convienently brush past the money Soros contributes and Immelt skews in media coverage through NBC and its sister MSNBC.

Was Obama lying when he said he said that transparency and no behind the doors meetings would take place when passing legislation and he did it anyway?

Was Obama lying when he wanted no conflicts of interest in his organization with money people and lobbyists and virtually everyone on his staff has had some financial issue whether it being failure to pay taxes, connections with lobbyists, his own sale of a ten foot piece of land to Tony Rezco who is now in jail and known Chicago fixer?

Was Obama lying when he said he would close Guantanamo Bay or stop enhanced interrogation techniques his first year in office?

Every time Obama slips up in one his speeches which happens to Biden daily is he stupid or is that just limited to republican women because how dare they be conservative and woman at the same time?

Lying in political office is a mainstay of both parties and its whats promised to get people to elect you. Who cares what Obama or his minions said in 2008 about unemployment being at or below 8%. Its irrelevant today as it was then because it was a promise or pledge or estimate he couldnt possibly know at the time. You guys waste valuable time arguing about who is the stupidest or who fibs the most and none of it whether fiscal policy by either party works.

Instead, fiesty, navy and the rest of rat pack of know it alls, why not discuss specifically why you think Obamacare will reduce the deficit and respond to the Wall Street Journal article today as to how the new estimates show 85 million people will lose their employer provided coverage and it will cost trillions more than anticipated?

Instead lets discuss why the current administration's policies of government assisted mortgage programs, unemployment extentions, the Dodd-Frank bill (by the way give specifics not just generalities), the stimulus bill adding 900 Billion to the deficit, the auto bailout, the AIG bailout all helped the economy.

Please provide a current policy or administration advocated bill that would improve the economy so we can debate the merits. For example, so many of you think we should tax the rich and take away from the successful and equal the playing field. The Senate and the presidency is democratic so where are their bills suggesting this approach? Do they have bills that fix the tax code somewhere? Do they have a bill that discusses how to fix social security or medicare that we can discuss (and no none of you that paid into this system have paid anywhere close to the amount you will receive in return so that argument doesnt wash). I have no problem discussing ideas like means testing or raising taxes and cutting spending but are their bills currently being proposed or suggested by democrats that we can discuss as possible solutions to our problems. Is their a job creations bill in the senate or by the President we can discuss? Do we have a bill to discuss the untenable unfunded government pension liability issue at the state and local level that will never be funded whole to discuss? How about tort reform? Come on Fiesty, Bev, Navy put out a bill or solution currently be proposed by a democrat or the president and lets discuss its merits. Put out one thats already been passed and lets discuss whether its done what it was supposed to do?

Stop discussing the liar and lets discuss the actual issue or proposal? Back up your rhetoric with actual honest to god opinion and Navy dont cite some progressive silly talking points web page. Tell me why you think the stimulus worked or what bill a democrat has proposed to solve a current issue and tell me why?

David Walker - you are a D-bag loser. Enough said.

Kirk lotsanumbers:

Tune in to First Read more often. There is more than enough sniping to go around, but good ideas are often presented here. The reason this thread even started was because I am fed up with lies. That's not a mere "character issue". When you are trying to form an opinion, trying to gather information, trying to find a coherent solution - you seek facts. When posters throw out misinformation and disinformation, that is most assuredly wrong. Simply stated it is dishonorable.

JoAnna Smith is iconic in that regard. I asked for proof that would support her "quotation". There was none. She flatly invented the quote. Calling a liar a liar is bullying? That is not quibbling. This is her M.O., and I'd had enough. Obviously, other posters agree.

I have to wonder if those who support this type of behavior would tolerate it in their own children.

black_belt3:

You continue to show improvement in the depth of your analysis; well-reasoned and supported by fact. This is your best effort yet.

Wow, miss a day, miss a lot. David Walker, you've really started something here. I noticed that when Tweedledee offered this opinion--

The spin, "Obama never said unemployment would be held below eight per cent" simply does not resonate with the electorate.

--it really encapsulates the beliefs of Conservatives. It doesn't matter whether the comment is true or not, it only matters if they can sell it. Right now it doesn't matter to most of them that the buyers remorse directed at Republicans we've been talking about for months is evident in the polls, the GOPTP only wants to divert to some other topic.

“See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."—”

George W. Bush

Truth, as in "truthiness" coined by Stephen Colbert. This is, and has indeed been the GOP/TP "strategery" per Omega's post quoting Ron Suskind. Oh how we would love to ignore the inane right-wing posts, or respond with "Puleeze bagga" but... “Vigilance is the price of democracy.” - Gregory Rooker. Feisty wrote:

In the hopes people will just plain GIVE UP!

Not on MY watch!

Winners never cheat and cheaters NEVER win!

The right-wing lies cannot be left to pollute the ether.

Until the rush to invade Iraq in 2003, I was guilty of apathy, and so was the press, and everyone -- "silence is acquiescence." We find ourselves now in this mess, this mess that has been years in the making. If we don't stand up, and stand up now to FOX, Hate Radio, Viral E-mails, and all other media that is the double-edged sword of the Age of Information, we will surely "sink into the mirey depths, where there is no foothold."

I do not like ad hominem attacks, but I have been registered Independent since the 1980s. Republicans who registered Independent after the Bush/Cheney administration in protest instead of cleaning up their own @#$%&! Party, are an insult to me. You are POSERS, and you deserve to be tagged along with those who lie and spread misinformation to casual readers.

However, progressives don't understand conservatives. They really believe the talking points they parrot. The only way to address the problem is to teach critical thinking, research methodology, and logic to have the Rule of Reason in this country.

Ursula:

She will be a short lived candidate. She said nothing except a few lies about the HCR Law that I wrote about yesterday. Her appearance was nothing more than a photo op to announce her running for office. That was the only thing she said that was true.

Navy great post this morning, keep spreading the truth.

Hey L@@k everybody - CU Farley's back... LMAO!

CU Farley is back. Can't hide in this new computer world. There are some hateful conservative sites where you would feel right at home.

CU Farley, we are not against conservative women, only those that lie consistently trying to get a few votes when they have nothing else to offer. I thought they tossed your butt off this site????

Typical repug trying to defend what is morally and ethically wrong. Only in the GOP/TP is outright lying considered a "virtue".

yea those 800,000 jobs lost by the HCR that the CBO declared... except they never said such a thing... "She's telling it like it is!" in her own little world.

Well said, USN. Among the many ridiculous Conservative memes one of the most ridiculous is the expectation that Democrats are somehow required to back anyone merely because of their gender or race. It's Bachmann's destructive beliefs that matter, and that disqualify her from the presidency.

A person's ethnicity or gender is not what progressives care about, we just don't like stupid. Palin and Bachmann are an insult to their gender.

As for life at erection, this IS a gender issue. It's bad enough that women like Bachmann attack the health and well being of other women, but what's with men like Santorum? Whenever a man get's obsessed with abortion, it's obvious they are sexist pigs who don't women to have power of any kind. They will never get pregnant or give birth for gawd's sake, like why the hell should they have any say about it.

Do your part now and change your shorts!

While I am greatly amused at Pawlenty being promoted as the alternative to Romney, what you saw in that debate is what Pawlenty actually is. He is boring, always has been, always will be. Pawlenty might be seen as a VP candidate by the eventual Republican nominee. He will add nothing to the ticket if they are deluded enough to put him there. When the media gets interested in what happens in MN when Pawlenty was Governor, he will have no chance at being elected dog catcher. If he gains any traction (which I doubt) watch for Governor Arnie Carlson (R) to come out to the media to push the damage that Pawlenty caused here. Carlson is the last Republican I ever voted for, and is a good, decent and honorable man.

The Republicans are doing thier job. Which right now is to prevent Obama from enacting any more ridiculous job killing laws until he can be replaced in 2012.

Does this mean that you don't believe it's the Republicans' job in Congress to come up with any of their own ideas on how to fix the economy?

Noid, As a poor leader Obama hasnt listened to any of the ideas of the Republicans or common sense Democrats yet. That is how the Frank/Dodd bill got signed. Now it needs repealed. It's how HCR got signed even though no one beleives it will lower the cost of healthcare. More time wasted. It's unlikley any idea that could add jobs or balance the budget would be passed by the senate or signed by Obama. It's ironic that after spending the money on TARP to jump start banks ability to lend money. Obama signs a Frank/Dodd bill that essentially nullifies any adavances the TARP program made. Ridiculous leadership....

Auntie Fascist: That was funny!

The problem with the GOP/TP rhetoric is that most economist (democrats and republicans) of note have agreed that President Obama has created about 2 Million Jobs (more than Bush did over 8 years) and his stimulus did work. The problem with it is that it was not big enough or targeted enough.

The same debunked lies from the right day in and day out. Talk about JOB Killers, the Ryan bill will kill about 700,000 jobs, stall the economy and repeal Medicare and Medicaid as we know it. T-Paws proposal is even worse and the worse of the worse is Bachmann's proposal. Just google them, the GOP/TP is doing their job alright. Destroy the Middle Class, repeal Social Programs and Entitlements all the while giving RECORD TAX CUTS to the 2%.

Navy, I have news for you. Medicare/Medicaid is detroying it's self. With out "Changing it as we know it" it will not be available to those who really depend on it. Sure it would be easier to kick the can down the road like Obama proposes and get re-elected. You voted for change let's really see it through...

UAW---that may be what the Republicans think their job is and, if so, they are doing it. The problem is that they told the people who voted for them that they were going to work hard on the economy and creating jobs and they have not done that.

Steeler they are trying to repeal Frank/Dodd and HCR. That will help the economy

UAW,

How is that tax cut deal going that is suppose to stimulate business creating so many jobs going lately? I seem to remember President Regan had it work once in the 1980's. However, those days are long gone. Look, the tax cut plans from 2000 forward are failing to create the needed jobs.

So, time for a new plan. Tax baby Tax.

Here is a plan in Congress. Let's discuss its pros & cons.

http://www.onecentsolution.org/

Or how about this one and a compromise of the two?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-chaka-fattah/a-penny-on-the-dollar-can_b_838444.html

The proposals are there. All you have to do is your due diligence.

Job1, Do you really think increasing taxes is going to create jobs? I understand Obama's war and rhetoric on businesses and Individuals making $250k+ excites the liberals and poverty lobby but it isnt going to instill the confidence of these groups to hire anyone. We desperatley need a change in leadership. It doesnt neccisarily have to be a TP/GOP there are plenty of Independents and Democrats far better at leading than Obama....

Yes I do. Let's go back to the Clinton area tax rates. It was proven that it works. Tax Baby Tax.

Increasing revenue would need Clinton era leadership to work as well... Blowing a $trillion in revenue on the stimulus was offset by Obama's poor leadership and rhetoric. It's a shame Obama spent that kind of money and actually made the economy worse... VOTE FOR CHANGE IN 2012!

Ben - Using the HuffPo as your source for comments doesn't cut it.

The GOP House has submitted bills to the Senate that Dirty Harry Reid just sits on and never lets come to a vote. The Senate is the group not doing their job these days. The Senate has only passed CR's and defeated 2 budget bills this entire term. The House has passed a number of bills and they go no where. That's fine - we are probably in better shape having DC do nothing for the next 1 1/2 years until the GOP takes the Senate and WH which you all know is going to happen. 0ne Term 0bama is trying to prepare you people for it as he has begun speaking of possibly having only 1 term. He is going to win 13 Blue states plus DC. OH, PA, VA, FL, NC are going very Red right now and 0 can't get re-elected without all of them. He won't win one of them.

Correct Black Belt. The best thing for Washington to do for the country right now is nothing until we can elect better leaders in 2012. I wish the situation was diffrent but it's not. I am encouraged by the number of voters who now realize just voting for change with out a clear idea of what that change is, was a bad idea.....

Yes we do need a change in leadership. Hopefully, many Republicans will be replaced in 2012 and the President will have people who say yes and not a continued no.

Job 1 be thankful sombody in Washington is able to say "No". Had this poor leadership continued I'm not sure we wouldnt be asking foreign countries for help and letting them decide what our entitlement programs would be aka Greece, Portugal, etc. etc..... VOTE FOR CHANGE IN 2012!

if uncertainty is a problem why don't we just raise taxes and make it certain that those taxes will be raised. I'm sick of every time the right wants something done they just use the biggest buzz word of the day.

America is corrupted and we need to restore morals, so pass our social bills. (when you just wanted to fire up the churches)

America is bankrupt, so pass our bills to cut taxes and destroy all the programs. (when you wanted to fire up the fiscal conservatives)

American businesses won't hire, its uncertain out there, so pass our bill to lower taxes. (when you want to prey on low employment to get your bills passed)

I'd respect you guys a lot more if you just openly didn't lie all the time and make sites like politifact and factcheck go insane. Just tell us, you want lower taxes (because of some outdated idea from a senile president, that hasn't worked in decades), you want all the programs you don't use cut (don't touch your military industrial complex or big oil, the koch masters don't want their subsidies touched), and you want everything privatized (no private industry doesn't always do a better job then government). Don't run around telling me your god demands it, or that the almighty economy wants it, we all know that's not true, not even vaguely. Don't tell me "uncertainty" stops companies from hiring, EVERYTHING is uncertain and EVERYTHING has ALWAYS been uncertain (unless reagan is as special as you think and could see into the future).

Hug, That's a good long winded post. As far as the uncertainty. Obama changed the rules multiple times regarding the banks. No Bonuses, You need this much Capital, You can't charge this late fee, You can't loan in this business, If you took Tarp money you can't do this, You can't pay dividends if you still owe tarp, we might require principal write downs on delq mortgages, you can't robo-sign, blah blah blah. Now they passed that ridiculous Frank/Dodd bill but that stupid law didnt set any policies. All it did was mandate various goverment offices to set those policies. It's a cluster #@$% to say the least. That ridiculous health care bill also left businesses scratching thier head on what it will eventually cost....

0ne term 0bama is the change we need - we need to change his diapers and send him back to Chicago for good on Jan 20, 2013 - its gonna happen - Thank God.

He always looks like a homesick cub scout to me, Bachmann is the Alpha-male when standing next to him.

ROTFLMAO! Good one Grump!

Seriously funny! FG, you've been on a roll lately.

BRAVO Nash!

I heard a clip on MSNBC yesterday (can't remember which anchor said it) about Walkers 'victory' in WI was a 'win' for him because it would balance the state budget...

Nothing about the FACT the workers had ALREADY made the concessions and this so-called VICTORY had NOTHING to do with balancing the budget!

All I could do was shake my head and remind myself that WE must continue to point out the blatant inaccuracies that passes for 'news' these days!

Keep up the fight GF - I'm at your side!

Girl, with you at my side, I know we will prevail! :o)

Even their flawed polls show the President holding his own . . . more and more folks are realizing that the "corporate people" are having their cake and eating it too . . . things are changing . . . which is why these liars are doubling up their efforts to deceive and discourage us.

Ain't gonna work though!

Nashville_fan

"This is a more pressing crisis than even the economic deficit . . . if we don't improve the education level of the ADULTS in America, we will continue to reap a bumper crop of ignorance, unsolved problems, and falling status in the world."

Excellent point Nash....of all the cutting that can be done.....education should be off the table...whether it's our young people or the adults.

VermontGirl: We have missed you. Happy to see you back in the pit.

So true Nash, now that Weiner has resigned maybe we can get back to the 'real' world of our real problems.

Keep up the good work, hope you had a good vacation.

I was always a big fan of The West Wing. They did an episode entitled "Guns Not Butter" that featured discussion of a poll question surrounding a proposed foreign aid package:

Josh: "So, if we're lucky, foreign aid's going to be funded for another 90 days at 75 cents
on the dollar. No one who's ever said they wanted bipartisanship has ever meant it.
But the people are speaking. Because 68% think we give too much in foreign aid, and
59% think it should be cut."

Will: "You like that stat?"

Josh: "I do."

Will: "Why?"

Josh: "Because 9% think it's too high, and shouldn't be cut! 9% of respondents could not fully
get their arms around the question. There should be another box you can check for, 'I
have utterly no idea what you're talking about. Please, God, don't ask for my input.'"

No, as a whole, we aren't smart enough to answer poll questions.

The media is entertainment, pure and simple, so their goal is always to sensationalize a story any way they can.

Do you remember the story about Charla Nash - the woman who was attacked by a chimpanzee? She lost her lips, nose, ears, hands, and is permanently blind. After receiving a face transplant, the anchor interviewing her daughter asked if her mother liked the way she looked now.

DAUGHTER: She can't see so she doesn't know what she looks like.

ANCHOR: But won't it be exciting when the bandages are removed and your mother gets to see her new face for the first time?

DAUGHTER: She's blind.

The news anchor had embarrassingly little knowledge of the story and just plodded right on. So it takes a little extra work to understand what's going on since you can't trust the media to get it right.

Vermont Girl;

Where have you been, we missed you here. Hope you are back to stay. I agree with you on Education. The three things that Americans are saying they want now (actually yesterday if not sooner) is Jobs in this Country, a stable economy and improvements to Education.

The GOP/TP is dead set against all three and then they have the nerve to say they want to be in charge. They could not run a parking lot, let alone a country.

Hi ursula!

I caught that interview and actually cringed when she said that!

Pathetic, lazy & embarrasing 'reporting'.

GBM:

I had a really good vacation . . . ate alot . . . slept alot . . . stayed a day longer than planned! :o)

Great post, Nash. I can guarantee you that the media will breathlessly cover the resignation of Rep. Weiner and the next utterances of Sarah Palin but not the issues of substance.

Nashville: please inform the soldiers who have been bleeding and dying in Iraq that there is no war going on there. Be sure to include my niece and nephew and three of my sons friends. Tell the one who has permanently imbeded shrapnel in his sholder from an IED, that you were not involved in combat operations. OH, you can't do that, can you. Then just STFU.

I'm not a fan of the GOTP. But don't go spewing lies about what our brave military people are doing half a world away. When bullets, missles, or other explosives are flying around and our people are there, being hurt or preventing others from being hurt, that's called war.

Dear dirp101:

I hate to break it to you jackhole, but folks are getting shot and killed right here in the USA as well. That is not defined as a "war", so save the "I have people in the military, so I can show my a$$ on a blog" card for someone else, mmmmkay?

I'm not the one.

The only one "spewing lies" is you.

Hi Vermont Girl,

I read this morning that Vermont is at the top in education. Not so bad on the unemployment rate and health care either. Great news for a Wonderful Progressive State.

When over 50,000 United States military personel are involved in shooting bullets and missiles in a foreign country, I call that war. I don't know what you call it. It was war when President Bush started it, it is still the same war until all the troops come home. It is war until a final peace treaty is signed. That's why we are, still, over 50 years later, still at war in Korea.

As to the people getting shot on the streets in the USA, if enough of them happen, its often referred to as a "war zone." If the local police are unable handle the situation, then the local governing body asks the governor to bring in the national guard. When the riots broke out in the late 60's that is exactly what happend. We had the US military at war with the citizens of the US.

I'm just saying that if you don't believe that we are at war in Iraq, why don't you talk to some of the military persons who have been there recently. If you don't have any releatives or friends who have been there, I'm glad you don't have a personal worry. I have talked with my relatives and other members of the military who just returned from there. You might want to try the same.

dirp101:

You lost me at STFU. Seeing as you do not know me, and have no idea what my connection to the military is or is not, your initial post is classic anonymous internet bravado/bs.

While you make some valid points in your second post, we both know that "war" is a word that is often used, but the U.S. is not participating in combat operations in Iraq or Libya. That doesn't mean our soldiers are not in harm's way, and I never said or implied that.

Enough said.

Shameful.

Nashville: ok, you and I appear to be dithering on the definition of "war." I accept that.

I took your initial post as a direct implication that our military was not doing anything in Iraq or Libya. I now realize that you were just disagreeing with the media's drumbeat that we are in 3 wars. I understand.

By my definition, I would count at least 5: Iraq, Afgahnistan, Libya, Yemen, and (still) Korea. I won't get into a further semantic argument with you.

Peace and have a good day.

Now if only we could stop Andrew Breitbart and Benjy Bronk from hijacking and heckling and return to the days of journalistic standards, including William F. Buckley--please conservatives, I'd gladly listen to his egotistical commentation to the garbage out there now.

Gotta be from this planet to get a headline from the MSM.

Not true - Nancy Piglosi can't be from this planet and she gets headlines every now and then.

I just thought she was just a screeching harpee, didn't know she was also an I-551 carryer.

And that attitude is exactly why you all, conservatives and liberals alike, are going to get bent over the barrel again. You keep falling for the same stupid Punch and Judy show.

Greg: Great to see you back again. You have been missed as well.

Good Morning & great post Greg!

Don't hold your breath - the baggers & birthers like to ask ALL the questions, when it comes to answering some, eh not so much! lol

Should be interesting...

I submitted these questions to a radio station here in Detroit. The guy who runs the show wrote back that he was reading the list on the air this morning. He's going to read it to 4.6 million people.

Get some popcorn for this one Feisty.

Gonna be a lot of hostile noise coming my way, but I hope at least some will submit thoughtful, soul-searching answers!!

Greg: Wish I could pick up that Detroit radio station. Fun listening. Well done.

Thanks for the welcome Ron! Nice to be recognized by a Freedom Fighter of your timber. Got a rare day off to see my son off to 5th grade. His last day at Kennedy Elementary. His next school is Johnson Elementary. Named for two Liberal Democrats,...ya' gotta love it.

I can hear the Conservatives thinking up their answers right now. Spanky, Joanna and NoJO are sharpening up their pencils.

Greg: Wish I could pick up that Detroit radio station. Fun listening. Well done.

Thanks Ron, you can:

http://www.1310wdtw.com/cc-common/gallery/

They do free pod casts. It is today's show with Tony Trupiano, First Shift.

OK...I'm game...I'm a conservative...

Republican policy seems inherently hostile to the working class. Assuming you are not rich, why do you continue to vote for a party that is actively trying to bleed wealth out of you?

I consider myself "working class" and my standard of living/wealth has increased over the last 10+ years

Why are you on this site? Do you suppose the Liberals on this blog frequent and taunt conservative bloggers on conservative sites? Yes, Liberals are nasty too, but at least they’re home,… you’re not, so why do you take the trouble to come here every day?

Need some levity now and then :-)

Republicans are supposed to be self-reliant, “by-your-own-bootstraps” people, but if you are relying on wealthy people to confer jobs on you aren’t you making yourself dependent on a wealthy person’s bootstraps? Can you explain the contradiction?

No. Not every conservative, Republican, etc want's to become an entrepreneur; however, the beauty of this country is that everyone has the ability to do so. We don't want nor desire a govt handout to achieve our goals. I respectfully have to say your logic is flawed.

Why was Reagan so great for America?

I admired Reagan for his optimism and leadership...not getting either from President Obama. ATM's and kiosks are contributing to unemployment? huh?

Have Republicans achieved their moral agenda?

No. No party or ideology can nor ever will be able to legislate morality.

When Republicans possessed all levers of power from 2000 – 2006 why didn’t Republicans ban abortion?

Don't believe it can be done at the Federal level...read Roe v Wade

Was a Recession already in progress when Barack Obama first sat down at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Yes...but he's two and a half years into his Presidency and things don't appear to be turning around anytime soon. He interviewed for this job so stop sniveling and blaming the previous administration because things aren't going your way.

Are you sometimes embarrassed to be a Republican?

No. I'm embarrassed at times by the conduct of some of the members of my party. I'm sure Democrats are equally embarrassed by the conduct of some of their members at times (Rep. Weiner)

I'm probably going to regret this and really open myself up to both sides, but what the heck. I disagree with the wording on some of these questions though. And I'm sure that I'll find out that I'm incorrect in some of my assumptions, but hey, if I learn a thing or two, why not!

1. Upper bracket income tax reductions: I'm not sure that I'd agree they've been a failure. This is almost saying that the economic recessions of the last decade are due to tax cuts. I think economic recessions are substantially more complex than that. Some have been due to the dot com bubble bursting, 9/11, the housing market collapse, collapses in foreign economies, etc. My understanding of the philosophy is that many small business pay taxes at the individual income tax rates, so theoretically cutting those upper tax brackets should allow small business owners to lower their tax payments and presumably hire more people. However, they also need to feel confident in the economy before hiring. Again, my answer here is that evidence is at best inconclusive due to the complexities of the economy.

2. Why do I come to this site? Honestly, I don't want to surround myself with people that agree with me. You can learn things by listening to people with different viewpoints. I also think that Domenico and Mark do a fantastic job with this site. Do liberals here visit conservative sites? Honestly, I have no idea.

3. Republican dedicated news station...I assume this is talking about Fox News. I'm gonna be honest. I don't watch it that often. I've certainly seen them slant things toward Republicans as I've likewise seen MSNBC do for the Democrats.

4. I would not approve of a credit default because of the potentially catastrophic effect on not only our economy but the world economy. I'd strongly prefer to see a compromise solution between the two parties when it comes to deficit reduction.

5. I'm not sure how the Republicans are trying to bleed my wealth away (being sincere here). My taxes haven't gone up at all for a long time. I am not a $250k + person, but my standard of living has increased.

6. Moral issues...I'm going to skip most of these types of questions as I'm substantially more moderate socially and believe the government should stay out of it.

7. The economy was clearly struggling when President Obama took the reins. Was it technically a recession? I think so...I think statistically it ended in mid-2009. Could be wrong though.

8. Embarrassed to be a Republican sometimes? No. I'm proud to be a Republican. But does that mean that I don't think some Republicans say some things that make me smack my forehead? Of course not...people of all political persuasions say embarrassing things.

9. I have never called it the Democrat party unless it was a typo.

10. I have never attended a protest nor have I really felt motivated to do so.

11. I do not carry nor do I own. I'm sure there are plenty of liberals who do...my neighbor being one of them. ;-)

12. Liberals wimps? Not sure I'd agree with that in general.

13. Reagan's greatness...I'll catch some flak for this, but I was really too young to remember Reagan...I was 10 or 11 when he left office.

14. Democrats messaging...That's a good question. They seem to be a little behind when it comes to getting out in front of a story. Not sure why that is.

15. Inherited mess...I don't think conservatives are disputing this. I think what you hear more from my side is this...how much longer can he say, "I inherited a mess." In other words, how long until he is "responsible" for the state of the economy? 1 year, 2 years, never? Different conservatives will answer differently. Now, as many of you know, I don't think the President of the US has as much impact on the economy as many voters tend to attribute to him. But, I'm just trying to state the conservative argument on this point.

16. Conservatives and facts...Let's be real here...this could easily read "Why aren't politicians interested in facts?" Both sides relish playing fast and loose with facts.

17. Are the two parties the same? No, of course not. BUT..I think they are much more similar than most people believe.

18. Yup...I'm aware he inherited a debt. I'm also aware as has been pointed out that he has added quite a bit to that debt...and unfortunately, the next President will probably continue to add to that debt. We gotta break that cycle!

There you go...Let the feeding frenzy begin. ;-)

Thanks jinsd. I can tell you put some thought into your responses. I appreciate your input.

Thanks for being bold enough to be the first respondent!!

Thanks Greg!

By the way...great and thought provoking questions. I often times believe that both sides make "broad" assumptions about the rank and file of both ideologies.

I consider myself a fiscal conservative...socially...what you do behind closed doors is none of my business as long as it's between consenting adults and doesn't involve children/animals.

Excellent answers Frank! Thought-provoking and even-handed. You come off as a person much older than you are. Something like quiet, reserved wisdom. You seem to have a maturity beyond your years, or you have been reincarnated!

Thanks for candid responses.

Hey Greg,

I'll take a shot at your questions. Keep in mind, that while I am a Republican/Conservative, I don't speak for all members of the party and I am sure there are some that are more informed and better debaters than I am.

Conservatives claim that giving tax amnesty to wealthy people will stimulate job production. Significant upper-income tax reductions have been ongoing for a decade now with no jobs in sight. Now that this model has been exposed as an obvious fraud what do you think its failure says about Republican philosophy?

It is your opinion that lowering taxes does not stimulate the economy. I disagree. Your assumption that this is an "Obvious fraud" is simply an opinion. When Regan lowered the tax rates, employment went up. When Bush did it again, it would appear that it did not work the same way. I don't know why. There is more to the economy than tax rates. You referred to tax amnesty in your first statement; this is not the same as tax reductions and has little to do directly with wealthy people. The idea is to get the money that has left this country because of tax rates to come back home. I'm not sure I agree with a total tax amnesty for repatriated money, but it seems like a suggestion that deserves consideration.

Republicans are supposed to be self-reliant, “by-your-own-bootstraps” people, but if you are relying on wealthy people to confer jobs on you aren’t you making yourself dependent on a wealthy person’s bootstraps? Can you explain the contradiction?

Most successful companies are owned by wealthy people because they have been successful in building the company to be profitable and they have taken their reward along the way. I don't consider desiring and working towards a career or job as having it "conferred on me". The process of learning a skill, and then selling that skill for fair compensation is not the same a asking for a handout. If you ask any of the really successful wealthy people, they will tell you that their most important assets are the skills, dedication and loyalty that a good employee brings to their company. No contradiction here.

Why are you on this site? Do you suppose the Liberals on this blog frequent and taunt conservative bloggers on conservative sites? Yes, Liberals are nasty too, but at least they’re home,… you’re not, so why do you take the trouble to come here every day?

It seems to be that to make informed decisions, a person needs to be exposed to both sides of a debate.

Why do you suppose the Republican Party needs to have its own dedicated “news” station /media empire devoted to the promotion of Republican dogma?

While Fox News is defiantly right leaning, if you check, you will see that it is not owned by a political party. It is a private business that has found they can make a lot of money by pandering to a particular segment of the population.

Would you approve if Republicans forced a government shutdown / credit default to achieve their political ends?

Politics is a dirty business. I rarely approve of just about anything the politicians do; either party. It seems that holding ideals hostage has become the norm in Washington for both parties. Personally, I don't think we should raise the debt limit. If we don't, we will be forced to cut expenditures to stay within our budget. I don't believe that the republican's actions or in-actions to raise the debt limit are a political maneuver, but simply a reasonable response to the problem of spending money you don't have.

Republican policy seems inherently hostile to the working class. Assuming you are not rich, why do you continue to vote for a party that is actively trying to bleed wealth out of you?

I have not been bled of my wealth. I am your typical middle class working stiff, but I have learned to live on my income, raise a family and provide the necessities of life while putting extra away for my retirement. I believe that the Democrats are the ones that want me to pay more taxes, so if the only deciding factor was who is going to tax me more, I will choose the Republicans.

Have Republicans achieved their moral agenda?

Who cares?

When Republicans possessed all levers of power from 2000 – 2006 why didn’t Republicans ban abortion?

I believe there is already a law in place for this. Roe V Wade. Because Republicans honor the decisions of the will of the people and the law of the land, they could not just arbitrarily decide to change the law.

Was a Recession already in progress when Barack Obama first sat down at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Yes.

Are you sometimes embarrassed to be a Republican?

Never.

Why do you suppose that most of the Republican Party is so ideologically pure? You often have 100% of the Republican Party voting straight, strict party line on legislation. Why are Democrats so haphazard, so undisciplined, so random, and so unorganized by contrast?

I think you are wrong. I believe that occasionally, members of both parties will vote to represent the will of their constituents. I think this happens more often in the Republican party than in the 'Democrat' party.

Why do you call them the “Democrat” Party?

Other than my previous answer because I read ahead, I refer to the Democrats at the Democratic party or Democrats when referring to a single or group of people. Is my grammar wrong? Why do you call us Tea Baggers?

Have you ever attended a political protest against Liberal groups? Have you felt motivated to do so?

No.

Do you carry a concealed weapon? Do you think any Liberals do?

No. I am sure of at least some Liberals that do. The dike I used to work with does.

Why are Liberals / Democrats such wimps?

I don't think they are. It is a persona they have adopted to try to get sympathy.

Why was Reagan so great for America?

He put a lot of people to work and protected the Constitution.

When Fox News is caught with an obvious case of fraud (palm trees in a supposedly Wisconsin video), are you embarrassed?

No. I did not make the mistake, they did.

Why are Democrats so bad at “messaging”?

Sorry, I don't understand this question. If you mean, why they lie about Republican agendas, like "Trying to kill Grandma." I think it is in desperation to overlook facts.

In light of recent 24/7 news media coverage of Weiner’s situation and the constant Monica Lewinsky attention afforded Bill Clinton for several years is it still a “Liberal media”?

I believe that all media including Fox has become biased politically, but they still have to sell their product. Unfortunately, too many Americans are interested in scandal instead of issues that impact their lives and their futures. The media outlets understand this from a business point of view and respond accordingly to try to improve profits.

It’s obvious Obama inherited a mess. Why do conservatives continue to warrant otherwise?

I purchased a home about 16 years ago. It had problems when I bought it. I choose to buy it. Kinda like asking to become president. I can't keep blaming the builder or the previous home owner for the problems I face with my home today. I just have to fix them or face the consequences.

Why aren’t Conservatives interested in “facts” sometimes?

I prefer to have facts to base my opinions on. Too easy to turn the question around.....

Are the two parties the same?

No.

President Obama inherited $12 trillion dollars of Federal debt. Are you aware of that?

I'm not aware of the exact numbers. While I have looked for this information on-line, it has been hard for me to find the facts without political influence. It sure would be nice to have an unbiased media that would report the facts so that I don't have to. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to find the true information about everything that is impacting our country. I depend on others for some of this information.

I have set myself for all kinds of attacks based on my answers. Have at it. Is there any chance you would be interested in answering a bunch of leading, loaded questions honestly?

jinsd I just have to point out one thing when it comes to your response to the recession question. This recession was very nearly another depression, we barely dodged that bullet. Considering that the last depression the US had it not only took 15 years but the most devestating war in world history to pull us out of it, and the resulting economic prosperity of the US was a result of every other industrialized country being reduced to a bomb crater. So to assume that the president, who cannot dictate how the economy operates, is responsible for not pulling us out of the greatest economic downturn since the great depression when he took office since the great depression in 2 and a half years is a bit foolish. Most economists have stated that we shouldn't expect to see any real recovery until 2012 at the earliest anyways.

Other than that good post!

"So to assume that the president, who cannot dictate how the economy operates, is responsible for not pulling us out of the greatest economic downturn since the great depression when he took office since the great depression in 2 and a half years is a bit foolish"

Good point...Presidents are like quarterbacks when it comes to the economy. They get too much of the credit when things are good and too much blame when things aren't good. I know he inherited a mess. In 2001, my conservative brethren kept lamenting the "Clinton recession" to which I responded "yeah, but the current President is not named Clinton"

I did read housing isn't "due" to bottom out until 2012...where housing goes so goes the economy...

What I'm looking for from my President is leadership and optimism...not getting that right now.

For as much criticism as I've doled out to President Obama, I still wouldn't want his job...period!

ehh...now I'm just rambling random streams of consciousness

Thanks for the comment Jeff!

I asked this question before and I'll ask it again here...by what statistics can this be considered the greatest recession since the Great Depression? I'm sincere here. Also, how do we know that we were going into a "second Depression"? Is there a definition of an economic depression? (I'm thinking similar to the definition of recession relating to consecutive quarters of negative growth). Thanks guys!

Frank,

I posted one of these the last time you asked. These may not be exactly what you are looking for.

http://timecuriouscapitalist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/recessdepress.jpg?w=590&h=454

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_A0OjNbJK3p0/Sw3Alp9gHSI/AAAAAAAAAMk/cHjv2xn6K64/s1600/unemployment.jpg

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/28/unemployment-today-vs-the-great-depression/

There is no way a radio show out of Detroit has 4.5+ million listeners. Maybe in a month but not in one day. Better look up the Nielsen ratings. All the cable news networks added together barely have 4 million viewers in any given hour per day - and they are all National. Actually it is about 4 million between 6 - 7, then 4 million between 7 - 8 etc. I would guess a single radio show in detroit reading a piece on the radio may reach 45,000 listeners and the station would be thrilled.

Thanks for your answers too JC in G.

They were candid and up front. Some were surprising responses, and I think they'll help break down stereotypes of Conservatives.

By the way, I gave your response a positive vote, that and 50 cents'll get ya' a cup of coffee.

True Black Belt. I was referring to the Detroit metro area's current population. Maybe that was overreaching.

Greg,

I am going to take you up on not answering all the questions but I am going to try and merge them. I believe I am more conservative than liberal. I believe conservatives would rather do for themselves (I think you used the term self reliant) than have the government do for them, for me it is a matter of self esteem. The fact that I "need" the wealthy is a choice, not a mandate. If given a choice between big business and big government, I would pick big business just about every time (can't say 100% because nothing is perfect). The reason for that is once again choice - if I don't like what that big business is doing I can stop and go to another. Also, when big government does something it tries to do "a one size fits all" attitude and this country is too big for that. Yes, the Pres. did inherit a mess, however, it is not something he did not realize going in and by taking the oath, he is accepting responsibility. (If he did not know going in, then his ability to research and plan shows he has a lot bigger problem). As for the Fox News (I am assuming that is who you are writing about) they are not part of the Republician Party. They are a business with a business model. The fact that they are doing well (otherwise you would not be complaining about them) means good for them. Can you really state that MSNBC doesn't wish they had the same ratings, and aren't they just the same but with a different slant? I don't know yet how I feel about a government shutdown and the debt limit, but then again that is why I come on this website (and listen to not only Fox but also CNN and MSNBC) - to get differnet ideas. I try to get all points in.

As to the social issues, I really don't care. I don't own a gun (don't like them) but can't say it is wrong for someone else to have them. I don't believe in abortion, but can't say it is wrong for others.

Never been to a liberal rally but then I have never been to a conservative one either. Rallies are talking points and I want to hear or read substance.

I know I didn't answer all your questions, but hopefully you get the idea. Besides, I have to get back to work.

Reading the answers from Rick, Frank and JC on this board as to why they vote Republican is depressing.

As near as I can tell, from their answers, these guys vote Republican because they think its the manly choice. "I'm self reliant and successful, I vote Republican!" It's their identity. What it comes down to: choosing a candidate like you choose the car you drive: "does this Camry make me look successful or stodgy? " Forget gas mileage, safety or price.

They'll vote for a Romney because it makes them look like they are hardworking, manly men, as opposed to voting for President Obama, even though he has done an excellent job, because they don't identify with a candidate who is gifted and "lucky" and empathetic.

These voters don't even know anything about recession, what caused it, how one gets out of it; they'll just vote Republican because they perceive its the manly thing to do, despite the fact Republican policies will do nothing to fix the underlying issues facing us, of energy independence, wall street regulation, education and the economics of healthcare.

Amy - Are you saying that there aren't women out there that would share share the same answers?

Sorry, but your logic is seriously flawed at best.

I know enough about the current recession to now that there is equal blame on BOTH sides of the aisle. Yes, Republicans were in charge 2001 - 2009 (Executive branch from 2001 - 2009 and both Legislative branches 2001 - 2007)...Democrats were in charge from 2007 - 2011(Both legislative branches 2007 -2011, Executive branch 2009 - present).

Energy Independence - A $43,000 Chevy Volt is not the solution to energy independence...it's a step but not the ultimate solution. Like it or not, we will need fossil fuels for least one more generation.

"Manliness" has nothing to do with how I vote...even if it did what's the crime with being "manly"?

Amy...

I'm not sure how my answers to a specific set of questions posed by Greg can be interpreted as me trying to be "manly". I'm completely baffled by this. Can you cite an answer that I gave that says I'm manly thus I must vote Republican?

As for choosing a candidate like I choose the car I drive...ok...guilty as charged, and I'm fine with that. I research cars on JD Power, Consumer Reports, and several other websites to determine price, safety, mileage, reliability, etc. I then go and test drive many, many cars. I then take my kids with me to make sure they are comfortable in the car. Only after all of this research do I spend my money on a car that will get me where I want to go and keep me and my kids safe. Likewise, I don't pick the candidate I like based on style points or because I have to toe the party line. I have voted for Democrats before. I voted for our current Senator Bill Nelson for one.

jinsd

Republican voters on this board tell us they themselves have moderate views about social issues. Yet, every time they vote in a Republican ,we get another voice in the Congress and White house for defunding Planned Parenthood, promoting abstinence education over sex ed, re-defining rape, outlawing gay marriage, and all that.

It's almost as if they expect Democrats to do all the heavy lifting of protecting civil rights for gays, dealing with public health issues like unplanned pregnancies without support from moderate voters like themselves. Democrats like me raise money, knock on doors and support candidates who vote moderately on issues Republican voters claim to agree with, but which Republican politicians do not.

What I hear the Republican voters on this board saying is they vote for the GOP becuse they believe in being self-reliant, successful, and independent. I will call these manly virtues.

But, my beef is, when you vote for a Republican, you get a representative who raises the level at which the estate tax kicks in, which helps create a thin band of very wealthy people at the top of our society, who are controlling increaingly more and more of our nation's wealth. (for example) Opportunites to become self-reliant, successful and independent then diminish for the rising generation. Our society stagnants. It's frustrating to take one step forward (electing Obama who lifted bans on stem cell research, gays serving in the military, and who put programs in place to develop rail and alternative energy) only to have these gains threatened by people who vote for Republicans because they think they are supporting "self reliance."

Interesting discussion guys.

Amy: I have to admit that I didn't quite get the logic of the Estate Tax until Thom Hartman put it into another perspective. He stated that the Estate Tax was intended to halt the institutional transfer of generational wealth.

We are not talking about a few thousand dollars here. We are talking wealth in the multi millions - tens of billions. The Estate Tax was apparently started back in the day of the industrial so-called "robber barons" at the turn of the last century. The Carnegies, Rockerfellers, Astors, etc... were immensely powerful. And wealthy. Once you have that kind of wealth it is really easy to get more and more and more....Some of these people were getting powerful enough to rival the Federal government, which, as we all know, hates to share power.

The Estate Tax was started as a way to thwart a potential government overthrow.

Don't laugh. It has been tried.

Back in the 1930's a group of wealthy, powerful businessmen approached a U.S. general named Smedley Butler. They were trying to get him to overthrow the Federal government of FDR because they thought his policies were too Socialist. They wanted Butler to lead a force of about 100,000 U.S. troops. General Butler turned them down and produced this evidence before a committee. The coup attempt was quickly swept under the rug.

The businessmen were led by the Dupont brothers and included one Prescott Walker Bush. If that last name sounds familiar it ought to.

Anyway, the Estate Tax should sound like a good idea to all but the wealthy.

Amy - I hear what you're saying.

Who lifted bans on stem cell research - There never was a ban on stem cell research. There was a ban on federal funds used for stem cell research beyond the 30 or so approved stem cell lines. Senator Hatch, Nancy Reagan, and other Republicans fought President Bush 43 on federal funding of Stem Cell ban. A Republican Congress(2006) repealed the ban on federal funding for stem cells and Mr. Bush vetoed it (his first Presidential veto) which upset me considering some of the bloated spending bills Mr. Bush should've vetoed previously.

Promoting abstinence education over sex ed - Abstinence works every time. Not aware of Republicans wanting to completely ban sex ed in public schools.

Re-defining rape - ?

Outlawing gay marriage - State issue that I don't believe would survive constitutional muster.

Level at which the estate tax kicks in, which helps create a thin band of very wealthy people at the top of our society - I disagree

Put programs in place to develop rail and alternative energy - Great and I applaud the President. But in the meantime we still need to expand domestic energy production.

Not saying that I've never have nor would ever vote for a Democrat (hey I voted for Diane Feinstein)...I could see myself voting for an old school Democrat in the mold of say JFK/Truman

Greg - Yes, one of the most excellent threads/discussions I've come across in years...really

"The Carnegies, Rockerfellers, Astors, etc" - I believe this was also some of the motivation behind the Sherman Anti-Trust laws.

Honeymoon over???????????????. Where are all those jobs they promised????????????? I guess that was not really their agenda.

I believe this was also some of the motivation behind the Sherman Anti-Trust laws.

You might be right jinsd. I gotta' read up on more of that kind of stuff.

jinsd

Excellent conversation. ABSTINENCE works every time; sadly abstinence education doesn't seem to work EVER.

I now have my fifth Republican friend (based on the fact that they voted for McCain) who is dealing with a teen pregnancy. Not a single one of my Democratic friends has had this issue. Not one. I bet I know twenty 17 and 18 year olds. So this would be 25% have gotten pregnant in the recent 12 months.

Having grown up in OK, one of the brighter shades of crimson (as it were-shout out to my Sooners). Ignoring sexual activity and sexual education simply DOES not work in our highly sexualized country. It just DOESN'T.

I will NEVER vote for a candidate who would vote to defund programs that actually HELP overall pregnancy rates. Call it a litmus test, call me crazy; but SOMEONE has got to take responsibility BEFORE conception.

Call it a litmus test, call me crazy; but SOMEONE has got to take responsibility BEFORE conception.

Excellent post Clara! You came out and said it. Frankly, I don't have your guts.

I hate the idea of abortion, and I am sure that no one, of either political stripe would cheerfully look forward to having one. That having been said, I don't think we should have the right to ordain or legislate what women should do with a child she is carrying.

Abortion must be the most traumatic experience in a woman's life, and why is it always the women who must bear all the burdens for it?

Let's all not forget the "abstinence doesn't work" poster child, Bristol Palin.

Kind of deflates your argument when your own child is living proof of its invalidity doesn't it?

Kind of deflates your argument when your own child is living proof of its invalidity doesn't it?

Only in our bizarre 'alternate' reality. In the Republican version,...it validates your hardship. Or whatever this weird dysfunctional worship thing is,...

If you don't insert A into B your don't get a baby. Look, not saying abstinence is the end all be all but if you don't do the act then you don't get the baby hence when practiced, abstinence does work.

Now, my left wing friends were fomenting/frothing all over themselves when Bristol Palin announced her pregnancy. As the father of two daughters, we parents CANNOT hold their hand 24/7. We can only hope that we gave them the necessary tools and life lessons that will enable them to make wise choices.

Thanks again for letting me participate in your forum. We all need a "safe" place to vent with like minded folk. This is the Liberal's forum...I'll still drive by on occasion. One thing I've learned is I'm not going to change your opinions or beliefs and you're not going to change mine. On most things we will agree to disagree. But the biggest problem is both ideologies paint the other with to broad of a brush.

Stay safe and watch out for granny...apparently we conservatives want to push her off a cliff...or so I've been told

I applaud the conservatives who answered Greg's questions (maybe we should start each thread this way). I am still curious after reading the responses--minus social/religious wedge issues:

I see personal experience as a measure, rather than the general good. It’s great that your own personal wealth has increased, but not everyone is an engineer with job security—look around you, a lot of people are hurting, feel some empathy.

My question would be, why do conservatives think liberals want a hand-out? Ben Stein said that outside the oil industry (think Koch Brothers) the richest 2% are Democrats. The hippies from the 60s are the ones who started most of the successful companies out there. I and other progressives I know have done well in our lives—I don’t get this stereotype. If anything, the “welfare” states that receive more federal funds than they contribute are red states.

President Obama is more honest than Reagan, so may not seem as optimistic, but minus the visual props, he speaks as well. As for negativity, the GOP has become the Party of Fear and the Democrats have become the Party of Hope.

I am moderate leaning to the left. I never go to conservative sites and swoop and poop. I wish other conservatives posting here were as thoughtfull as the replies to Greg. Geez, maybe liberals are wimps. But I live in a red state with family and many around me who are far-right Republican, so I get my belly full without it.

True, Republicans don’t own FOX—Fox owns Republicans. When FOX contributes a million to Republican governor campaigns, when most of the FOX staff is Republican politicians, when FOX and staff help promote Tea Party protests...it is weak to say FOX is not part of the Republican Party. This is the kind of denial that infuriates liberals, can you understand that?

About taxes, my question would be: You realize Democrats favor tax cuts for the middle class—they don’t want to raise YOUR taxes. Is this a “Gateway” fear? I still don’t understand why conservatives protect the richest 2%, who are different from corporate issues of off-shoring. Many of the richest 5%-2% is doctors, lawyers, investment bankers who don’t create jobs. They bleed your wealth my not paying their proportional share in taxes, in fact 57% of tax evasion comes from this group that use write-offs to show zero income on their returns.

I find the “let’s agree to disagree” or “that’s your opinion” business unacceptable when it comes to facts. Also, there is always a lesser of two evils—one evil does not equal or cancel out the other. When experts, for example the majority of economist’s consensus is that tax cuts don’t create jobs, your opinion is not equal to experts, nor does it trump what is accepted as fact based on accepted data.

Breaking the cycle sounds like commonsense, but the timing is a problem. NOW conservatives are outraged about deficit spending, NOW Republicans are outraged about the war powers act. Conservatives do not criticize their own Party, at least not openly. This IS the difference between the two Parties, and why liberals seem unorganized. It is the liberal nature to allow diversity, descent, and most of all lack the 11^th Commandment of not criticizing their own.

I believe this also explains why Republicans don’t seem (or admit to) embarrassment like the Dixie Chick’s did about Bush, or now Sarah Palin, or all the Republican sex scandals, etc. If you’re not embarrassed, I hate to break it to you, you should be, and that’s the problem with the GOP/TP.

Also, conservatives do not understand American history in regard to state’s rights, and since Big Business is not run by elected officials, I’ll never understand why conservatives fear our government more. Would you prefer that Haliburton and Xe provide national security? From Enron to the economic meltdown due to mortgage securities fraud, what has government done, kick your door down in the middle of the night and drag your family away? Come on!

As for the estate taxes, according the GINI coefficient, the Robber Barons are back, along with the greatest number of multi-millionaires in history. These folks are controlling our government. If we don’t get campaign finance reform, then we need the estate tax again—not to mention it would help reduce deficits.

TP:

Post of the day. +10! You rock.

WOW TP!! Just WOW!!

Hope my questions initiated a useful exchange between people. No matter what party we align with we all want the same thing: a prosperous America to hand off to our kids.

Good night from ol' Motown.

Thanks. I'm in the west and can't post until late, so I'm surprised anyone saw it. Also, I multi-task and am usually tired, so I apologize for the typos.

Being in a red state with far-right family members has provided insight. First of all, they are embarrassed about certain things. Most watch FOX exclusively, but will lie and say they get news from a range of sources (like Palin tried to do--she is a big fan of NewsMax but didn't want to say that). Interesting when you visit these folks, only FOX is on, and they rarely know about issues FOX doesn't report.

When conservatives know they are busted, they go silent. Though some admit things like the cap on FICA contributions for trust funds (Social Security/Medicare) needs to be reviewed, but in a sheepish way--no passion like gay marriage. And when you are proved right, they will never own up. I told them the Iraq invasion was a mistake before the invasion, and even now they will say things like WMDs were moved to Syria, and it was just poorly managed, blah, blah blah.

Wost of all is not knowing things like American history on state's rights (been there, done that, didn't work), or even what socialism really is, for example. I attribute a lot of this to FOX being launched in the mid-1990s, along with increased popularity of Hate Radio (Micheal Savage, Rush Limbaugh), and websites like WorldNetDaily, and Viral E-mails--man are they into that. You may note I list these in order of journalistic standards, or lack thereof. This is at the basis of polarization in our nation.

Another comment I noticed was about not having time to follow politics so relying on what they hear from others. This is another problem I see with conservatives that I know--but like I said, I'm in a red state. I don't know if this is as prevalent with liberals in blue states. Okay, so in your busy life, being an informed voter is not a priority. Voting is a responsibility not just a privilege. Be an informed voter, please.

We allow guns in bars in Arizona, Ohio doesn't have anything on us when it comes to the stupid scale. Even the South is trying to catch up.

Equally stupid is the 'concealed weapons in bars and restaurants' law

I wonder how many republicans will get popped by live rounds because of this one? We lose more conservatives that way.

The whole country is getting a little wacky you can bring your gun more places than your cigarettes, I know second hand smoke is not healthy but it beats the hell out of second hand bullets.

Forrest, there is just no arguing with you sometimes!! :o)

How ya' doin' bro?

Doing fine brother thanks for asking. I will be up your way at the end of June, I got a week long lecture gig at the university of MI school of engineering in Ann Arbor.

Awesome Forrest!!

Hope we can get together if you are inclined and can find the time. Ann Arbor / Detroit can be a pretty cool place to knock around in.

U of M always attracts the best, so you must be pretty top shelf.

Take a look at what the governor of Michigan is doing. Bad as what happened is Wisconsin is I think Michigan is even worse.

Jeff I think the Michigan thing is overblown. No one is marching on Detroit to take it over. If ever there were a dysfunctional city,...it's that one.

However some land grabs are being made in the west of the state using this law as justification.

But Michigan certainly grabs the attention doesn't it?

The electoral college vote is going to be a mess for 0ne term 0bama in 2012 - He wins 13 Blue States and DC. The GOP candidate will win Ohio, PA, VA, NC and FL - 0bama needs every one of them to have a chance at winning and he is not going to win one. Even 0bama is starting to realize that he is a 0ne Termer. Hell NJ may even be in play as well as MN. It will be an electoral college landslide for the GOP - thank God - we can barely make it to Nov 2012 with this guy at the helm.

Greg,

Yes, my beloved state of Wisconsin has become the template for political battles of the next decade. I applaud you for generating one of the best discussions I've ever come across on Newsvine. It's refreshing to hear the views of conservative folks without the blather of stale talking points and thuggish bravado. Keep it up! It's healthy for everyone to understand the opposition's perspective and to hear honest rationale for their positions without turning discussion into a spitting contest. Now the trick is to get that through the noggins of some of the other knuckleheads on here.

blackbelt3, Wishful thinking that MN would turn from a blue state to red. We do elect Republicans at the state and local level. Up until Pawlenty, Republican governors would be called Democratic in most part of the country. Bachmann is a special case. The 6th Congressional district is very socially conservative due to the last redistricting. This time the district will be redrawn because it needs to lose 100,000 voters.

Or Florida, where the electoral college went for President Obama in 2008. The demographics now favor the Dems even more. Huntsman is setting-up HQ there for this reason.

Missy -- Bachmann needs to study REAL history, not the conservative rewrite, and not radical rubbage. When asked what she reads on economics she said:

"she admires the late Milton Friedman as well as Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams. "I'm also an Art Laffer fiend -- we're very close," she adds. "And [Ludwig] von Mises. I love von Mises," getting excited and rattling off some of his classics like "Human Action" and "Bureaucracy." "When I go on vacation and I lay on the beach, I bring von Mises."

In her attempt to avoid making the same mistake as Palin -- Thou dost protest too much Michele, and how did you find the time with 23 kids?

Ludwig von Mises is associated with "a branch of economics that views nearly all government intervention in the economy as utterly beyond the pale. Central banking: forget about it! Fiscal stimulus? Original sin. Taxes? A crime against freedom.

...The news is both hilarious and scary. ...If you worship at the altar of laissez-faire capitalism, you have found your high priestess." - http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=64340668#

My guess is she has had hired help or just reads the index, introduction and/or conclusion of these books. And the so-called "theory that free-market economics are the basis of civilization" makes me wonder why she is in government, since we don't need government at all according to her. Will all the Teabggers resign from office? Just wondering how purist they are...

Holly:

You seem like a person who earnestly wants to understand. It does seem like people of this country are voting against their own interests. I mean why should you and I care that a rich person gets to pay less taxes? It makes a lot of political sense if you are trolling for campaign contributions, but IT JUST DOES NOT AFFECT ME.

Here's a fresh thought: If Republicans want smaller government why don't they just stay out of it?

See? Easy.

Greg:

Here's a fresh thought: If Republicans want smaller government why don't they just stay out of it?

Excellent point. +10.

Thanks Bill. I've seen you make some pretty good points yourself on these boards.

Unfortunately people still believe that crap about trickle down economics but don't realize that middles class wages have been stagnant and due to inflation are actually comparitavely lower than they were pre 1980 before we embraced the idea. As long as people believe that economic theory works and that no regulation and low taxes will help them become rich they will continue to vote against their own interests.

The GOP stayed out of govt from 2008 - 2010 and the 0bama regime added between 150,000 to 200,000 govt jobs. Staying out is not the answer for the GOP - taking it back over will be complete on Nov 6 2012 is what will happen. Get used to it.

the answer for the GOP - taking it back over will be complete on Nov 6 2012 is what will happen. Get used to it.

black belt: I seriously doubt that will happen even if you discount my partisan proclivities. America has seen this GOP movie before. A stage full of old, well-heeled white guys itching to deregulate business, hike taxes, increase deficits, and shower government money on the wealthy.

America knows what that buys us: War, Recession and deficits far beyond infinity. Don't blame Obama for trying to fix it, he inherited $12 trillion of deficit from the repubbies.

Polls indicate that even GOP'ers hate their choices, and I know that America will go with a known quantity: Barack Obama. Hopefully, he will turn to the left during his 2nd term and stuff the repubs back into the hole they crawled out of. I expect Dems to even pick up a few seats in Congress too.

Greg - he got a $10 trillion dollar debt - and has added almost $5 trillion to it. The GOP will pick up the WH and 20 or so seats in the House. The only question is whether the GOP gets to 60 Senators in the Senate. You better look real close at the individual races before you make any other comments. You are blinded by the dull glare of the 0bama down fall.

If republicans get total control that black belt will come in handy when you are working for the Chinese.

he got a $10 trillion dollar debt - and has added almost $5 trillion to it.

But once he pulled the I.O.U.'s for the Afghanistan and Iraq wars out from under the rug where Dubya swept them the bill swelled to $12 trillion. Iraq and Afghanistan are estimated to cost around $4.3 trillion more in ten years.

The magic number is 2/3rds majority. That is what is required to override a presidential veto. I personally doubt repubs'll get there. Dems may even take back Scott Brown's seat now.

I dislike the Tea Party because I have never actually heard any ideas from them. Yes I know what they are against but what solutions do they have?

Jeff,

I can agree with you, but in reality, No one is offering a lot of solutions. When solutions are offered, the corrupt liberal media will distort and demonize. The tea party is simply pointing out that there are a lot of problems and Bush nor Obama wanted to deal with them. If they are not dealt with soon, we are going to be going through some really hard times.

So they pointed out the obvious, who cares?

Obviously a lot of people care and you should to. We have selfish politicians ruining this country and if it is not pointed out, so people vote corrupt democrats or Republicans out of office, then is back to washington as usual. Like the Obama administrations sleazy ways.

Realhope -- We just had a lengthy discussion on BS from conservatives. First off it is a lie that the Tea Party consists of moderates or liberals. Aside from the FACT that every single friggin' idiotic Tea Party candidate ran as Republican, and only Republicans voted for them, Republicans who registered Independent after Bush/Cheney in protest don't count.

They are not true Independents as defined as moderates who have voted a split ticket at least once in their lives. If an Independent has never voted for a Democrat, and always vote Republican, they are a Republican--get it? And there's sure as heck NO Democrats at those disgusting protests--certainly not any that are under the age of 45 or have an ethnic background other than Caucasian.

You wrote: "the slimy and corrupt ways of the Obama administration" so please feel free to point out the ways (backed up with FACTS). Just coming in here and swooping and pooping only makes you look like the Hater that you are.

I believe that you're the type of person who'd buy the Brooklyn Bridge!!

I believe that Herman Cain would beat Barack Obama hands down in the 2012 election.

I've gotta disagree with you Robert. I think that Cain has demonstrated himself to be a loose cannon, and people favor continuity, stability, the "Devil you know". At least the independents who will determine this election will.

Besides. Cain won't get the nomination.

The GOP is not ready for a woman or person of color to be President. They simply are not that evolved.

There is nothing in Brooklyn that I would buy. Not even one over-taxed hot dog.

"The GOP is not ready for a woman or person of color to be President. They simply are not that evolved."

I agree, heck many of them don't even believe in evolution, and if you listen to some of their candidates, you find the intelligent design theory is not working either.

Although liberals know the GOP candidates better than conservatives do (typical), after the Palin fiasco of McCain's campaign, and Tea Party wing-nuts in the 2010 election, Republicans are trying to vet candidates a little more this time around. If Cain is a loose canon (think Ross Perot), he will drop out of the race soon enough.

The video clip of Cain complaining about not having time to read lengthy legislation, and suggesting a law to limit bills to three pages...Here's idea Herman, how about congress writes their own bills instead of lobbyists? Now you have my attention. Three pages, gawd.

Well I guess I gotta' hand it to them True Patriot,....at least no one can say the republican field is lacking in original ideas.

David -- I agree with some of your post, but... There's always a lesser of two evils. One evil is not equal to nor cancels out the other. I could write a book about the things Dems do wrong, but Republicans are far worse (at least three books).

If only we did get oil for our trouble, though "blood oil" is disconcerting when it is the US who illegally invades a country. Now, if we are invited in (Libya) or invited to stay (Iraq), I believe these countries should help pay for our military with their oil revenues or barter of some kind. Why should we provide defense of police for free?

In a recent interview, Fareed ZaKaria pointed out that these small police actions only drain our coffers. Whereas WWII decimated any competition, which then needed to spend on rebuilding, and that's why those wars helped the US to become a superpower. BTW, 20% of our oil is imported from Canada, not the Middle East.

Thanks for your service Jeff. I know lots of Marines, many are relatives. No shortage of fanny whoopers there!

Jeff,

It was not a bad thing for Republicans to say they were going to try to stop Obamas horrible anti American agenda. Unfortunately by taking a look at some of his horrible policies he jammed down our throats (Obamacare, Stimulus to pay off his friends and special interests) , now we see the bad results. I cant imagine how much worse it could be if he would have gotten more of his agenda passed. It does not matter wether you are a Democrat or Republican or Independent like me, Obama has got to go!! And hopefully we will never again elect such a incompetent person. We have to remember, electing a president is not the same as voting for American Idol.

Haha, if you ask me to hold a position such as governor, congressman, or president military service should be a requirement. Maybe then our politicians wouldn't be so eager to get us killed.

Jeff - Hear, hear! If military service were a prerequisite for public service, there might be a far better caliber of politician in the government. Soldiers know how to work together.

Gateway,

not going to argue on whether Reagan was right but if you think "The Right, Conservatives, Tea Party" are the ONLY ones self centered and want things one way (their way) only, you are hopefully naive or hopelessly foolish. The Left, Liberals, and Progressives are the same attitude only with a different idea.

Why not?

And how do you think things would change? I really am curious.

0bamacare goes down is the first thing. Hopefully Ryan's plan gets discussed in a bipartisan manner and tweaked to be the best it can be. No other real plans being put forward by Dems. Freeze hiring of govt employees to halt the growth of govt. Stop destroying the value of the US Dollar - QE2? I could go on and on but have to go back to work.

Blackie, what will Republicans do about going against the will of the majority of the American People who say that we DO want health care, we're sick and tired of Republicans borrowing from our Social Security Trust Fund and then NOT wanting to pay us back, and we want the benefits we already paid for in Medicare. What will Republicans do about that?

And how about replaying "trickle down economics" for the millionth time, which hasn't worked in all of the 30 years that Republican have promised us that if we keep making the rich even richer, eventually some of that money would "trickle down" to us supposedly by providing us with better wages when what Republicans really did was stagnate our wages while they continued to increase corporate profits.

How about that? What's the Republican "plan" after they steal our Social Security Retirement money, Cancel our Medicare, and lower our wages. What then?

55% plus do not want 0bamacare and at least 50% want it repealed and the number grows by day. You need to start looking at real polling numbers - not those from the HuffPo or the Daily Kook.

black_belt3 -- Did you actually read any of the posts above, or did you just scroll through to reach you conclusion? I ask because obviously you missed this article earlier on MSNBC (or didn't read it):

As Vice President Joe Biden and congressional negotiators hunt for budget cuts, major Medicare changes that could squeeze billions in savings got a boost Wednesday from a nonpartisan panel of experts that advises lawmakers.

Those changes are already under consideration in the budget talks, officials say. - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43412692/ns/politics-capitol_hill/t/medicare-options-biden-budget-talks-get-boost

I provided the link so you can READ it.