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Subscribe to RSSAn intrepid White House aide’s nail-bitten mission to board a transcontinental commercial flight and hand-deliver crucial national security legislation to the president before midnight WOULD have made a great subplot in the next Jason Bourne blockbuster.
Which is probably why the White House opted for an autopen instead.
Hill sources say there had been a plan to have a White House aide hand-carry legislation re-authorizing the Patriot Act to Europe, where President Barack Obama is traveling for G8 talks. But a delayed vote process meant that the bill might not have reached the signer-in-chief before the act expired at midnight.
So last night, the president made history by authorizing the first use of an autopen signature for a bill to become law.
At least one Republican lawmaker now says those robotic scratches of ink could set “a dangerous precedent” for constitutional shenanigans ahead.
Georgia Rep. Tom Graves -- who voted against the PATRIOT Act extension -- put his concerns in writing to the president today.
After quoting Article I, section 7 of the United States Constitution in a short letter, he then, politely, assigned the president homework.
He asked that Obama provide a "detailed, written explanation of your constitutional authority to assign a surrogate the responsibility of signing bills passed by Congress into law."
Graves may want an answer, but when Minority Leader Mitch McConnell was asked about “Autopen-gate and the Mystery of the Secret Signature” he said, “I haven't looked at the legality of it and therefore don't have an opinion to express on it.”
In 2005, the then Deputy Assistant Attorney General Howard C. Neilson, Jr., (who is getting a significant amount of Google play today no doubt) released an opinion that deemed the use of an autopen to sign a bill constitutional:
“We conclude that neither past practice nor previous opinions relating to the signing requirement of Article I, Section 7 foreclose reading that requirement in a manner that is consistent with the traditional common law understanding of ‘sign,’ with attorney general and Department of Justice opinions applying that understanding to statutory signing requirements, and with the settled interpretation of the related presentment and return provisions.”
But what IS an autopen?
Bob Olding, the owner of the Damilic Corporation, one of what he says are only two companies in the United States that make and sell the devices described it like this:
“There are basically two kinds that we provide. One is mostly mechanical and that is the old classic autopen. It has a large plastic wheel in it ... as that rotates between two levers it pushes the pen in the appropriate direction.”
They can cost anywhere from $2000 to $10000 and it’s another $175 to create each signature template that tells the machine what to do. The more expensive machines are automated and involve programming your handwriting into a computer.
When asked if he had sold a machine to the White House or possibly Sarah Palin, he said, “I couldn’t tell you if we did.” He keeps his client list very hush hush but said it includes large corporations, universities and political campaigns.
NBC's Kelly O'Donnell contributed to this report.
Leave a Comment:
Well, now we know what the breaking story of the day is with the hate merchants over at Fox Noise!
The right wingers has to have something to b!tch about!
*popcorn*?
Feisty - you are good with the Patriot act?
You do know that is Bush's law?
Obama is really becoming more and more like Bush - adopting more and more of his policies everyday.
So Feisty - has Obama adopted more of Bush's policies and laws than he has created on his own?
Not too progressive, this one, eh?
Yep. Just like Bush.
Guess that means he's gonna get re-elected, too.
Neat.
It is the use of this reobotic device that everyone is flapping about. What idiocy.
As for the Patriot Act itself, that is indeed a subject worthy of discussion. I've noticed that the President has really been much more aggressive and serious about anti-terror activites ranging from finally getting OBL to going after both Taliban and al Quaeda in not just Afghanistan but also Pakistan. His Homeland Security team has been far more productive than G.W. Bush's was.
And the President, although thwarted by Congress on both closing Gitmo and conducting civil rather than military trials for Gitmo prisoners, has stepped up the pace of dealing with those prisoners.
It appears he has indeed changed his pre-election position on the Patriot Act, quite possibly because of information gathered or new experiences during his more aggressive anti-terror efforts.
Regardless, there are folk on both liberal and conservative sides who ardently disapprove of much of that package of laws and still wish the president to do away with many elements of it.
Could the Republicans become more petty? I don't think so. All the gnashing of teeth, while our healthcare problems still are not being addressed, while the rich get richer on the backs of the elderly and poor and children. While oil companies get subsidies? Give me a break...you petty small people.
I wonder if any of the usual Congressional Clowns will challenge the Patriot Acts "auto-pen renewal" ?
Step right up.... Ms. Bachman, Mr. Rand Paul, Mr. Ron Paul ?
What, no takers ?
While I don't approve of all of the provisions of the Patriot Act, much of it has been useful in allowing the government to make it more difficult for the bad guys to do the bad things we don't want done.
I hate the Patriot Act and want it repealed.
What I want to know right now, however, is how this happened in the first place. Does anyone know how the timing of this got so mucked up?
Rand Paul had to throw his hissy fit!
I was actually rooting for him thus, it's expiration... ;o(
The conservatives/Republicans/TP held the bill up for one reason or another, one ammendment or another (sound familiar?). They pushed the deadline right to the end (sound familiar?). Now they are complaining about the process and procedure.
A day without Republican complaints is like a day without... sunshine...?
Spanky-
Feisty - you are good with the Patriot act?
You do know that is Bush's law?
Obama is really becoming more and more like Bush - adopting more and more of his policies everyday.
So Feisty - has Obama adopted more of Bush's policies and laws than he has created on his own?
Not too progressive, this one, eh?
Spanky-
I knew it. You couldn't wait to equate one of the best Presidents, who by the way, hasn't even been in office a full term with the Howdy Doody President GW Bush. In no way is President Obama equal with Dubya Doody. President Obama is not that STUPID.
Although, I don't agree with the Patriot Act because I think having a Judge give a search warrant is just as good; but, who am I to say what classified security issues President may have?
Unlike Bush President Obama got bin Laden, Dubya Doody didn't and didn't even try. Bush, with that sh!t faced smirk on his face, said he wasn't concerned about Bin Laden. I have it on record in case you don't believe me...
Bush On Bin Laden: "I truly am not that concerned about him (short version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMVdh8vdJfs&feature=related
Bush gave Hugh tax cuts to the rich. Yes, so did President Obama; but, only because the insane GOP/T-Baggers tied his hands behind his back by promising to not extend unemployment benefits to the needy.
President Obama gave us healthcare. GW Bush wanted to privatize SS.
The President is for financial reform and wants to end speculation on oil. republican Eric Cantor wants to guarantee the Oil Barons the Republicans will do everything to assure the oil Barons they can continue their practice
Those are my the thoughts The list goes on and on; but you get the gist of it; right?
Do continue on with your normal jackassery about the Howdy Doody puppet President, GW Bush
SPANKY,
pal, that's typical of you. Obama this Obama that and guess what, he keeps delivering. his 2 1/2 yrs bested 8yrs of w bush. i just can't see that comparison.
perhaps if you take out time and take a very good look into your doomed once upon a time party and see what a caricature you guys have become.....almost a non entity.
keep hanging out with us, liberals, why we get Obama re-elected.
CATHY M.-647265
"Could the Republicans become more petty?"
Yes, they not only could, but will. Hide and watch.
Empty Redhead,
Just for the curiousity of it and since you wrong on everything, I checked Fox News and nope - not a word.
So the whole thing - your "hullabaloo", this "Jason Bourne blockbuster" ..... your bitching about "right wingers bitching" is a FR fabrication about ONE guy, Graves who wonders if it could set a dangerous precedent.
Popcorn? Cathy's talking about gnashing teeth ....... rich getting richer ....how petty conservatives are and the other mindless libbie comments ...
Wow, you guys are real geniuses.
Yep Bev. and Pius you got me - Obama keeps delivering. Too bad he delivering Bush's laws and policies.
Bush tax cuts = Obama tax cuts. Bush's patriot act, GITMO, IRAQ war, Afghanistan war = Obama's wars and prisons. Bush's renditions= Obama's renditions.
I again ask what is the difference between the two at this point?
On a p[lus note Obama gets to deal squarely with deficit reduction. Bush sucked at that.
Four more years? Maybe, but at this rate who cares. Distinction without difference.
Figures, the right throws a fit about an auto-pen signature on a bill they love. This FR article proves that no matter what the President does, republicans will yelp in protest. If the WH had spent money to have the bill handcarried overseas, they'd whine; they're whining about the auto-pen signature. Maybe if Congress took less vacation time, neither the auto-pen or the fast plane to Europe would have been needed. Personally, I think it's kind of cool that technology allows this in rare instances.
Didn't the Supreme Court take some teeth out of the Patriot Act when it found the warrantless wire taps illegal? In my view that was one of the most outrageous parts of it. I also think that democrats took some of the worst stuff out before it was renewed the last time but my memory could be wrong. Doesn't mean I agree with it all but then I am not privy to the information the President and Congress have that might tell me why it is still necessary.
What, the TP/Rethugs are bored, nothing worth while to do? I could give them a BIG list of things that really need to be done, but most of them don't read anyway. Does anyone remeber, back in the dark ages, we used to do real estate contracts with faxed signatures? That was deemed to be legal and binding, with the phrase "with signatures to follow". This is asinine.
Wow you kool-aid drinkers really do believe this tripe don't you?
Obama will go down as one of the worst presidents in history.
Seems you are mis-informed daryl. I have never suggested that Bush was a great, or even good president. I was not a big Bush fan. I voted for him, but he sucked on debt spending.
Bush was never in Obama's league, but he sucked. So what are you talking about?
Just making things up? Going spit-balling perhaps?
And although I was certainly against Obama from the beginning, there were some benefits, or at least I thought to getting in a democrat. Like a return to personal freedoms and individual liberty. I am a huge fan of the 4th Amendment.
Sadly the benefits I had hoped via Obama have not materialized. this patriot act thing is about as bad as it can get from that perspective. I assume you understand the magnitude of a democrat signing such a law.
You do get that, right daryl?
bob-1805084
Empty Redhead,
Just for the curiousity of it and since you wrong on everything, I checked Fox News and nope - not a word.
So the whole thing - your "hullabaloo", this "Jason Bourne blockbuster" ..... your bitching about "right wingers bitching" is a FR fabrication about ONE guy, Graves who wonders if it could set a dangerous precedent.
Popcorn? Cathy's talking about gnashing teeth ....... rich getting richer ....how petty conservatives are and the other mindless libbie comments ...
Wow, you guys are real geniuses.
Look troll
Don’t get it twisted.
subject: an autopen signed by Presdeint Obama
Object: Bash President
Autopen Bill Signing is Obama's First
by Mike Emanuel | May 27, 2011
[snip]
A former George W. Bush White House aide, who worked in the Staff Secretary's office, says it was Bush White House Policy that a bill should never be signed with an autopen, for fear of a judge ruling that the law was invalid because the president did not sign it. "We never did it in case a crazy judge ruled it was unconstitutional, to avoid the potential hassle of litigating it, respect for the process, etc., but officially the executive branch is cool with it," the former Bush aide tells Fox.
Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/27/autopen-bill-signing-obamas-first#ixzz1NaR6iBvK
Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/27/autopen-bill-signing-obamas-first#ixzz1NaQBMj76
FOX NOISE deceives you believe
Renowned scholar, journalist JohnA. -
use of this reobotic device that everyone is flapping about. What idiocy.
Didn't read the article either, and you say "idiocy." Pretty idiotic.
I've noticed that the President has really been much more aggressive and serious about anti-terror activities ranging from finally getting OBL to going after both Taliban and al Quaeda in not just Afghanistan but also Pakistan
Afghanistan? Yea ...... Obama managed to get more Americans killed in Afghanistan last year alone than Bush lost in 8 years. Two-thirds of deaths have happened under Obama in just 2 1/2 years .... all for a stalemate that has he has no will or chance of winning.
Aggressive? Yea ...... Obama has about 5 times the drone assassinations as Bush did. So much cleaner, huh? No captures, no interrogations, no new intelligence - just have to push the fire button on a drone and no need for trials, GITMO, etc. Obama is such the humanist. He is even signing off killing Americans in foreign countries who have not been tried or convicted of anything.
War powers?
Gosh - at least Bush got approval for his wars. Obama just signs off to start one and goes on vacation. Check with Congress when he gets back. BTW - how we doing in Libya?
About OBL?
Having our military invade a sovereign country that had helped us find more al-Qaeda than anyone else, to kill an unarmed old man in the middle of night and dump his body in the N. Arabian Sea without a trial? What does Eric Holder think about that? What authority did Obama have to do that?
Don't know? Bush signed the paperwork Obama used.
Yea ..... it is funny how educating those PDBs are. So Obama isn't as completely clueless as he was before he was elected ...... well good for him.
Now if only there was some way to educate the liberal "scholars and journalists" like the rest of you geniuses.
Yea, Obama has turned
daryl-2183015
"Silly Spanky, do you just love to start spit fights or what?"
Spanky wallows in it. he's created a job that's so elusive to j boehner and his congress house of clueless for himself. spanky the spit bather...lol
PIM, I guess you don't really read the posts, you just assume you know it all anyhow.
There's a pretty good list of "liberals" standing against the renewal of the Patriot Act. And, by golly, not a few "conservatives" who feel the same way.
The "stink," here is over stupid criticism of the President's robo-pen signature.
Well, "stink" might be accurate, because those complaints are a pile of crap.
opps, sorry
An Autopen Signing got cut off; dunno why
I remember Rumfield using one of these to sign letters to family's of fallen soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and getting heat for it? Although the circumstances were more of showing lack of sympathy for the families then some ridiculous constitutional issue.
Besides, I was under the belief that a law passed by congress will still become a law without the presidents signature.
I guess at the end of the day it is better than a stamped signature and the signature pen is not capable of signature statements...
The above statements are really as relevant as this debate. Which is to say not.
Considering that we have no real plan for our country and we seem to have no interest in educating our children, maybe we should just talk about topics like this to avoid the real issues.
Oh! So according to you - we have to follow your 'rules' for criticizing! LMAO
Two reasons that ain't NEVER gonna happen!
First, it would be impossible for a liberal to bring themselves down to your level when it comes to hate.
Secondly, NO ONE DIED and left you in charge!
Bev,
Well I guess you know your way around Fox better than I do.
So Fox mentions a former Bush guy said they didn't like to use it.
OK. Now there are TWO guys.
WOW!
bob-1805084
Aggressive? Yea ...... Obama has about 5 times the drone assassinations as Bush did. So much cleaner, huh? No captures, no interrogations, no new intelligence - just have to push the fire button on a drone and no need for trials, GITMO, etc. Obama is such the humanist. He is even signing off killing Americans in foreign countries who have not been tried or convicted of anything.
Look troll you keep getting it twisted.
See post #1.9 - Fri May 27, 2011 2:35 PM EDT
Dubya Doody didn't and didn't even try. Bush, with that sh!t faced smirk on his face, said he wasn't concerned about Bin Laden. I have it on record in case you don't believe me...
Bush On Bin Laden: "I truly am not that concerned about him (short version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMVdh8vdJfs&feature=related
5x is better than Not trying or even being concerned where the F*uck bin Laden was.
Libya is not classified as a war it is part of the Arab Spring. Furthermore, it is in coalition with NATO; UNLIKE the Howdy Dowdy puppet to war profiteer teling him go alone.
"First, it would be impossible for a liberal to bring themselves down to your level when it comes to hate."
I guess Ed calling someone a "Slut" doesn't count? But that's in the past right? I know, lets have a do over, it seems to be the norm. So your statement above is true starting...........................NOW!!
Put a sock in it Wolfman!
I'll cut you some slack today and, NOT going to get into a pissing match with you about which media outlets spews more hate!
Hint: YOU would lose handily!
I thought you said you didn't get it. ;-)
Even though you claim not to get it, you got that right, anyway.
I do it all the time. I guess impossible things are happening every day.
It's not that big a secret. I can see your head from here. Wherever it is.
What is it going to take for you guys to finally figure out that these two are just interchangeable hood ornaments on the same rusty car?
Yes, it counts. Think about what Feisty's saying about you.
But a do-over would be fine. You can start anytime.
I don't think I would lose, there's plenty of examples on here, Bev is a perfect example. Well it's late, it was fun.
Bev,
The job, the primary responsibility of the President of the United States is to protect the American people.
BUSH DID THAT.
After the attacks on 9/11, Bush removed the Taliban and al-Qaeda from Afghanistan and broke up OBL's capacity to ever plan/ execute another attack against America.
Obama used all the policies and protocols established by Bush. Good for him. Now Obama has something libbies can actually hang a hat on for a few weeks.
BFD.
Libya is part of the Arab Spring? Launching 100 cruise missiles is spring time, huh?
Your ignorance is truly boundless.
So, then, why DID we invade Iraq that necessitated the deaths of more than 4,000 Americans, and why didn't Bush just withdraw from Afghanistan after he chased the Taliban out, and how does that square with what all you conservatives were saying a month ago to the extent that Bush never stopped looking for bin Laden, despite what HE was saying, and what were all these alleged terrorist plots that Bush and his supposed efforts supposedly thwarted during his administration? What was the shoe bomber, for example, and what was that guy they caught on that plane in Detroit? Did the Los Angeles tower thing have anything to do with Al Qaeda or not? Guess not.
I know, I know. MY ignorance is truly boundless, too.
Happy Memorial Day, bobby. Be sure to eat a hot dog or something like that.
Booby doesn't need a holiday to suck on a 'tube steak'...
Ahh, classic Feisty - you know you got the old gal when all she's got is a silly personal attack.
Keep on keeping on Feisty. I presume you'll be here tomorrow, Sunday and Monday too.
Poor old Feisty, no other outlet. Just hanging with a bunch of anonymous posters. So terribly sad. :(
"Poor old Feisty, no other outlet. Just hanging with a bunch of anonymous posters. So terribly sad. :("
Christ onna crutch- did YOU just accuse HER of that???
DBO, Spanky, Fiesty, Anna Molly, Bob, Wolfman, et. al.
Please remember what this weekend is all about. Whether its President Bush's war or President Obama's war, the men & women on the ground are the ones eatin' sand, dust, dirt & sweat. Give up the attitude and give anyone who has served some praise. Remember, they make it possible for you to express an opinion, here, on Fox, or anywhere else you choose to log on.
Obama has sanctioned assassination, murder, has killed innocent women and children (a baby killer). Obama has done so many things that Bush did, and when Bush did them the angry hate-filled left constantly attacked him for exactly what Obama is now doing.
Sorry lefties, but your crew while Bush was President did exactly what the Republicans are now doing, as it is the ONLY tool available to a minority party. When you children were in the minority, your behavior was no better, and I would argue much worse.
The constant war-crimes screams have suddenly gone silent even though Obama is doing exactly what Bush did, and much more. Your assinator of a president will likely end up in prison if his dirty deeds can ever be unwound. After all, he comes from the city where dirty politics became a business model.
Gotcha dirp.
Thank you 3wolves, and everybody else over there.
Catch you all next Tuesday.
Sthpanky, you're back! Skanks didn't work out fur ya, huh? We missed ya tho!!!
q
I dont know. You might want to ask the Clinton Administration. After all, they are the ones that furnished most of the WMD evidence and got the ball rolling before Bush was even mentioned as a presidential nominee.
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source
"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source
Ha, first the birth certificate, now we have to pull the signature card. This is stupid, any American can electronically sign their life away without ever touching a pen. Check the calendar it is 2011. The autopen is not a danger, an autoeraser maybe.
Forrest why on god's green earth is a progressive democrat like Obama signing a law like the Patriot Act?
It seems the true liberals are up in arms about this. Yet around here all is well, right?
Seems odd that you all are loving Obama's willingness to suspend your rights. I don't know, seems like something the evil villain Cheney would totally approve.
Good times indeed.
"Seems odd that you all are loving Obama's willingness to suspend your rights"
Object, your Honor- supposition.
"It seems the true liberals are up in arms about this."
Object, your Honor- hearsay.
"seems like something the evil villain Cheney would totally approve"
Object, your Honor- irrelevant.
Spanky. Sign it, don't sign, right wingers would be whining either way.
I commented on the issue of signing a document using an Autopen, not the document.
Is this thing like an Accu-Jac brand MasterBeater?
Spanky,
Like you, I hate the Patriot Act. This isnt about auto pens, its about violating the Constitution. No one posted any protest to the extension of the act.
I don't think many people here understand the significance of the Patriot Act and just how many personal freedoms and privacy they are giving away.
Major provisions include:
1. Unrestricted sharing of information could lead to the development of massive databases about citizens who are not the targets of criminal investigations.
2.The language of the act could lead to privacy violations of anyone who comes into casual contact with a suspect.
3. The breadth of the provision, saying the law could be used to demand the reading records of library or bookstore patrons.
4. The provision that allows the use of "sneak and peek" warrants for even minor crimes, not just terror and espionage cases.
5. The material support provision could lead to guilt by association.
Most of the provisions would violate rights guaranteed by the Constitution and seems that that's ok cause Obama said so.
drive-by-observer
"Seems odd that you all are loving Obama's willingness to suspend your rights"
..........................................................
Read the provisions of the act before you ridicule anyone. That's exactly what Obama AND Bush did. Even Ron Paul recognized the unconstitutionality of some of the provisions. Seems you're ok with it.
That is the point Groucho. Problem is the folks around here are Obama cheerleaders first and foremost. They don't get the importance of this issue. Now the true Liberals, like over at Firedoglake get it and HATE it.
Nope - here they want to talk about auto-pens and silly stuff like that which allows them to gloss over the substance of the issue.
The feistys, bev.s and Drive Bys are just mindless cheerleaders. They have never read, nor do they actually understand the true issues.
It appears to be a case of conscious ignorance. But ignorance is bliss and all.
Oh and DBO - stick to your day job, the objection thing-y was just silly.
Spanky,
If the President, whether it be Bush or Obama, had the enforcement and surveillance privileges the act provides under the Constitution, there would be no need for the act. First Bush and now Obama needed to suspend provisions of our Constitution for an act that was supposed to be an EMERGENCY measure after 911. How many times have extensions been passed?
How many rights do people need to lose before they have no rights left.
Exactly right Groucho.
So how come the rest of the supposed liberals around here are so complacent?
It is very scary. Sadly it's just their inability to do anything other than herd.
But hey - let's talk about auto-pens.
I'd argue that while the 1st Amend is probabaly the most important, the 4th is what truely gives us our power. And that's gone now. Thanks Obama.
"Seems you're ok with it."
There's that word again- the one that prompted my toung-in-cheek shot at Spank: 'seems....'.
Spanky,
"Forrest why on god's green earth is a progressive democrat like Obama signing a law like the Patriot Act?
It seems the true liberals are up in arms about this. Yet around here all is well, right?"
We on the left, allow each other the privilege of being able to think as individuals, as opposed to the right's total "group think".
Spanky-..
On some days, that change-y thing he promised is NOT for the better.
You hit the nail on the head, suspension of rights guaranteed under the 1st and 4th Amendments have been superseded by the right of Big Brother to spy on you, listen to your calls, open your mail, stop and detain you at will, etc.
No outrage here.
Phineas T Filibuster..
So you as an individual are fine with giving up your 1st and 4th Amendments rights?
Wonder why they were put there in the first place?
Screw it, let's cede ALL our rights and do what the leader says.
That's not how this democracy is supposed to work.
".... the objection thing-y was just silly."
Maybe, but quite accurate, nonetheless.
Kind of like
" They have never read, nor do they actually understand the true issues."-
Mere suppostion, and nothing more.
drive-by-observer
" They have never read, nor do they actually understand the true issues."-
Mere suppostion, and nothing more.
Sadly, in this case, that seems to be true. The ACLU and more Constitutional law experts are and have been up in arms over this act. It tramples our guarantees under the Constitution under the guise of national security.
Drive By - you done yet with getting called out as a silly, non-thinking monkey?
Whack-a-Mole.
You are still a really fun little mole. Whack!
See, wee all know I love busting your chops, but it looks like my man Groucho is all over your silliness.
Please don't stop. Come on man, you still got an hour until you bath in Hannity love. And again buddy, Big Ed's show is on at the same time. Big Ed, not Hannity really, really needs your support.
Or are you sticking up for Ingram? Good Drive By.
And hey - if you are out - have a great weekend DBO. Me, headed out to Havasu. It's river skank season - you know blonde on top, black hair underneath, and tats all around. Naked, drunken fun for all. :)
I wonder what Big Ed would call them?
My guess is Big Ed would call them ....."Family-Values Young Republicans".
Whack.
Ah, come on DBO - you can do much better than that.
Everybody knows that young folks are always Democrats. Why not, they ain't got nothing. It's when they accumulate things through hard work and sweat equity, then they start to wise up.
Like you Drive By - you have lots and lots of sweat equity in that job of yours. Darn near a part owner by now, right buddy? Sure you are.
Drive - did you catch the fine whip Debbie Wasser-schultz has? Yep a nice Infiniti F35. Only a v-6, but still mighty nice.
Course that ain't no American ride, so I bet old Greg from Detroit [Rock City] is a little pissed. But hey, the girl has got good taste. Now, if only she could get the curtains to match the drapes.
F the GD Patriotic Act. There is not one liberty or freedom I am willing to give away just so some cowards can have the illusion of safety. Many members of my family fought and died for those freedoms others are so quick to giveaway. There you go Spanky, an honest opinion from the far left.
Obama is a disappointment for many of us. He definitely is not a "progressive liberal", that's for sure.
It is funny how the right disses him so much when he actually is more a republican than a democrat.
Kennedy would have called him a fascist.
spanky, pure and simple the liberal folks at this site are hipocrites! They frequently praise Obama for virtually the same thing they vilefy Bush for.....
Not sure what type of catnip Obama's feeding them, but it must be very good s--t!
Obama was leaving the country club golf course when he was accosted by an armed robber who demanded, "Give me all of your money!" Barack haughtily replied, "Do you know who I am. I'm the President of the United States!" The robber snarled back, "Then give me all MY money." Too late Mr. Robber, your money has been spent!
They had to be sure they could keep violating the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
The Patriot Act probably has less to do with combating terrorism and more to do with what powers our political leaders think they will need once the American people realize what kind of effect the trillions of dollars of cuts to domestic spending (both parties have in mind) will do to their standard of living.
Egypt is going to look like a picnic when this @!$%# hits the fan.
Here's an article about the Presidents priorities I found on line (in italics with link at the bottom):
Obama signs extension of Patriot Act spy powers
By Andre Damon
28 May 2011
US President Barack Obama signed a renewal of three of the most notorious provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act Friday, meaning that the whole of the act will remain in effect without modification through 2015.
The move reinforces once again the wholehearted support by the Democratic Party for the policies of domestic spying, torture, and violation of democratic rights, adopted during the Bush administration and continued by Obama.
The provisions were set to expire Thursday, compelling Obama, who is currently making a tour of Europe, to sign the bill electronically from France in order to avoid any lapse of the legal authority for US intelligence agencies to spy on the American people.
Such a gap would have no effect on ongoing investigations, but would have called into question additional authorization of spying under the act's provisions. Regardless, Obama took extraordinary measures to make sure the bill was signed before midnight, getting up at 5:45 a.m. French time to sign the bill electronically with an autopen.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/may2011/patr-m28.shtml
I wonder what he had to sign to authorize the use of an autopen?
Once again our leader bends the rules and finds looholes to carry out plans the American people are against....Libya war, Patriot Act.
I wonder if he'll pass out commemorative auto-pens...
I am TORN up over the fact, I just found out my Christmas Card was signed by the 'autopen'!
Here I thought the President, Michelle & the kids had taken the time to sign it personally!
How will I EVER get over it... ;o)
Hey, maybe that's what happened at Buckingham Palace - the auto pen was stuck on the wrong year!
Good one fiesty...Look a little closer and you will see that it is merely a mass produced copy of the autopen signed card. lol.
Feisty, I looked at my card too, and I'm heart broken.
I mean and here I thought he cared about me... I mean really really cared about me!
I'm positively CRUSHED I tell ya!
*tissue*?
Do YOU even BOTHER to read my comments OR do you see my name & just launch into attack mode?
It was a JOKE!
I realize humor is an elusive emotion for you right wing idiots but, do try to lighten up for a change will ya?
You'll live longer...
You mean to tell me the donation requests I've been getting from DNC were photo-copies, and not originals?
Well, hell's bells.
Why, I had NO idea you cared so much....
Your concern is duly noted!
Feisty, you may be laughing now, but I can assure you that that signature has absolutely no collectible value. Just like his promises have no value.
Oh No Robin!
I could NEVER part with my cards, as a matter of fact they'll have to pry them out of my cold clenched fist when I meet my maker...
If that were true, then how would you know what amount of time I spend here?
I'm sure my card was signed personally... came from Palin... she thinks an autopen comes from GM.
LOL
Since when has using Modern Technology in the 21st Century become an unthinkable issue?
I am very happy to have a President that does keep up with the times. Who isn't viewing the World through the Prism of antiquated foresight.
After all isn't this Internet thing making most peoples day!....geez.
Who wants another dumb-ass president.
Feisty (Feisty? s/b Snarly!)
No one really reads your posts without protection! To do so would be a little nauseous to those who haven't eaten the Obama catnip.
The autopen thing would have been a front page news story of outraged liberals throwing a hissy fit if a Republican President had done the same thing.... ! LOL, What hypocrites you libbies are!
Just like every single American politician over the past 30+ years.
Well, if Congress is so concerned about the use of the auto-signer (the same auto-signer robot that they use to send their pithy responses back to their voters), perhaps they should have pulled their heads out of their a$$es and not F*d around with extending the act for as long as they did. Hell, they lost at least a couple of days letting Rand Paul throw his temper tantrum on the Senate floor.
Congress has no one to blame for the rushed nature of this then themselves. the POTUS has better things to do than to sit in DC and wait for that busload of petulant goons get anything done.
Well said, Grand Moff Joseph. The President's trip has been planned for months. Maybe Congress should have stayed in town more, and republicans would be smart to definitely stop throwing temper tantrums.
Yeah, he has golf games to attend and fund raisers to go to for his never ending campaign.
Grand Moff, it is politics. Almost nothing is fast. No one and I mean no one should sign a piece of legislation than the acting President of the United States. If this had been President Bush, all the people saying it is ok, would be up in arms.
hmmmm....
must be a slow news day, but with only one (?) pen used for the signature, who gets the pen as a souvenir?
Republicans have disallowed giving out souvenir pens as part of their deficit reduction programs those pens and relief for Joplin Mo. have to be offset.
it's funny how much is always referenced back to the constitution, without any consideration for advances in technology. show me the part in the constitution where it's illegal to drink and drive, but somehow we have laws that make it so. interesting isn't it?
Good point Jay why don't we use a quill pen, a turkey feather and a bottle of ink is what the founding fathers intended.
Clearly, a quill pen should be the only acceptable writing instrument. If it was good enough for George Washington, it's good enough for me. This means that any legislation ever signed with a fountain pen, a ball point pen, a felt-tip marker, autopen, or anything else is automatically invalidated.
(sarcasm off)
He signed it, which I'm not happy about, but it's done.
Are you sure they didn't say ink and a bottle of Turkey?
Mikey since they were afraid to give him any of the sharp instruments you described,does GW's crayon still count.
Could be Robin those founding fathers used to party like it's 1791, you got to be careful with that stuff or the turkey will leave you roasted.
Forrest, I suppose we'd have to count crayon as valid if W could get it out of his nose.
4 more years of Patriot Act...sigh That's the really sad story here.
Yeah, I don't care if it's signed on the POTUS's behalf by a self-aware BlackBerry or by Rotting Lich John Hancock on a beach ball. My problem is that the Putrid Act got signed and renewed at all. Obama has served decently and cooperated (I think too often) with the GOP, but if he cites the renewal as a bullet point on the campaign trail I'd happily heckle him.
No one who cares about the Constitution (except Cheney's administration - notice who I left out so we won't be called Bush blamers) liked the Patriot Act and the loss of some of our freedoms; however, Rand Paul's hissy about allowing terrorists to buy guns is ridiculous. Then if someone get's killed with one of those guns it - of course - would be President Obama's fault.
The other point is that I don't believe that a succeeding President should spend his whole time in office trying to re-do everything the preceding President did, or to second guess. That's my opinion. I know the Repubs have spent the last two years trying to re-do everything and anything that makes any sense, but after all, their excuse is - I guess - they are Repubs.
Every day a new "crisis" to keep the teabagger crazies whining.
On the contrary, with just his auto-pen, Obammy has turned himself into a tried and true Tea Party member! Don't you love the hypocrisy??
...of course, they'll never see it that way!
As for the Patriots Act, I'm most concern about its abandonment of many constitutional guarantees against a tyrannical government. With that said, I don't think any president, regardless of party, will give up the extra power that is act gives them. It is not human behavior, no matter how ideologically apposed you are to the core elements of the act, you would not want to loose that power.
As for the Auto-pen. What a novel idea. Obviously there are some chain of custody and validation that the president did in fact execute whatever is required for the mechanism to create his signature on a document. And I would suspect that it is more readable than the one he has to do with 100 different souvenir pens. LOL
Now what conspiracy will Glenn Beck make out of this????
The 'auto-pen' was invented here on Earth. And- just coincidently, Russia is here on the same planet. See? See the nefarious connection? We are all doomed.
Well, I guess the Republicans have nothing else to complain about. Now they have to create controversy. I am ashamed to say I live in Georgia.
Truth: This is the Republicans way of deflecting the attention off their votes to kill medicare! It's what they do best, change the subject from the fact that 275 republicans voted Yea on the Ryan Budget to give an additional 10% in tax cuts to the rich and have seniors pay for it with a health insurance coupon of limited value on the private insurance market.
Jody,
It's a better idea than the dems have. Oh, thats right, they don't have an idea. Harry and barry thought it would be too much like work to do that. Their grand plan: Just let it collapse.
He's never at the WH doing work anyway. To busy traveling the world on one big party. To the tune of over a billion tax dollars now. And Rome burns....I love you left-hand-lunatics.
Yeah, how dare Obama travel to the G8 summit! I am outraged! Who does he think he is, the President of the United States or something?
Did he slobber on, or touch, any of the other digintaries?
He should NEVER leave our country. After all, foreign relations should be left to the secretary of state.
For the rest of you, that was sarcasm.
What's the big deal? We've all faxed a signature to close a deal or signed for credit purchases at the grocery store. Maybe it's the lack of those valued souvenier pens to give out after a president uses ten pens to sign his name.
Electronic signatures are just as valid and legal as signatures on paper as long as there is an audit trail in place to verify who signed it. In this case, he did it in the media with the whole world as witnesses, so there is no question about his signature being authentic. The evolution from quill pens to cartridge pens to ball points to electronic is progress.
The only alternative to the auto-pen in this situation would be to fly a courier to Europe and have it signed there. That would be a waste of time and money. I'm surprised that the same people who are concerned about controlling costs aren't embracing the use of the auto-pen in this case. They would be all in favor of it if it was a Republican president.
It wouldn't matter if President Obama ordered a cheeseburger with extra cheese ... the Republicans would make an objection about it. And when you ask them why ... they just look straight faced and say, "because he wanted it, that's why!"
We're entering into a new age of gadgetry and electronics ... for some of us older folks, it certainly is coming at us faster than we can absorb or learn it. I still don't have a twitter account or even know how to twitter, but these younger people can multi-task out the yang ... talk, tweet, watch TV, and listen to music, all at the same time. Obama can't be in 2-3 places at the same time, and right now, with the way the world and economy is, he needs and wants to have his finger/eye on everyting that's twirling around him. I admire anyone that can do that.
If I were the Republicans, I'd quit worrying and bitching about an autopen, and be coming up with a campaign platform that doesn't include major cuts to entitlements. Best thing they could do right now is agree to go to the negotiation table with a balanced approach for lowering the Nat'l Debt. That way, 2-3 months before the Elections, and the debt is coming noticably down, they can smile and say they helped accomplish it. Beats crowding onto the elevator who's only destination is HELL, which is where their 2012 campaign is going.
Shhhh....MacNfries- we WANT them to keep yammering about silly, non-issues like this. It does SO much for their image as grown-ups.
Well,honestly,Obama CAN be in several places at once,he just hides it. If the Republicans were to realize that he had those kind of extraordinary abilities,they would completely flip out.You think the birthers and accusations of being a closet Muslims are way over the top? Imagine what would happen if it became common knowledge that he had actual super-powers.
Mac,
Yes indeed, Obamas idea of a balanced budget is spending more every year and saying he is cutting deficit. Even Jon Stewart made fun of him by saying: Obamas buget cuts are like going on a diet by increasing your calorie intake.
But then again, what can dems promise besides giving away more and more money?
Most White House correspondence is signed by the autopen. There are procedures to have something signed by autopen -- it has to approved, documented, etc. etc. It's not like someone is running around misusing this device -- it's kept under lock and key.
Most White House correspondence is signed by the autopen. There are procedures to have something signed by autopen -- it has to approved, documented, etc. etc. It's not like someone is running around misusing this device -- it's kept under lock and key.
First, I must find my pen to write this and this will allow no one to say "is this your signature?" Possible time-saving or saving from gadgets are good sometimes but in cybersecurity world sure knockoffs are out there or maybe I am just being too "pen"sive about the whole thing or too cyber alert...
Pen and ink signatures are easy to forge no matter whether its done by Obamas hand or an auto-pen. The autopen is probably harder becuase its usage is so well documented and control. It will be obvious to an expert that it WAS the auto pen,but if he didn't authorize it there will not be the paper trail and documents that go with it.
Digital signatures are much more secure. Obama could presumable have a copy of his private key that he would keep on him,or locked in a safe at ALL times. The key would be combined with a pass phrase that only Obama knew.(really,his private key would be a combination of a block of data stored on a digital media,probably under additional encryption,and the pass phrase that he keeps in his head) The text of the bill would then be hashed and the hash encrypted with a combination of Obamas pass phrase and his private key. Obamas public key,made from his passphrase and private key would be published on the White House web site. Only the public key could properly decrypt the encrypted data. Anyone could use his public key to decrypt the hash of the bill. They could then hash the text of the bill themselves. If the two match,then the text of the bill MUST be the original bill that Obama digitally signed,and it MUST have been done by Obama as only he has the full private key.
A signature is just ink on paper,you get the ink in the right place and you have a forged signature. digital signatures are secure mathematicaly. The movies where the really smart guy (or gal) sits down at the computer and cracks the code in 15 minutes are just fiction. Hackers (the cybercriminal kind,not the kind with the long beards who build computer hardware in their garage) exploit mistakes in the implementation of encryption algorithms,like a copy of the private key left in a temporary file,or getting a key logger on a computer to catch your password. They know that attacking the algorithm itself is pointless and dont even bother. A properly implemented encryption or digital signature algorithm is secure mathematically. So long as the keys remain secret,its unbreakable. Of course,its probably the case that the constitution does not allow such "signatures" as they probably do fall outside its definition of "signing" a bill.
We should all go back in time. I'm going to start sending my posts into FR by pony express. I just hope when the horses are auto-penned up Mark and Domenico make sure they are well fed, watered and rested before their return trip here to California.
Maybe we could get a morse code app for our cell phones.
Except most people these days don't know what it is!
I was thinking more in terms of a retna scan ... now that's science technology.
Amazing how the "far left" Obama turned out to be a moderate. He re-upped the patriot act,and passed a health care bill that was based in large part on Mitt Romneys plan,and so far,no gun control legislation in sight. So much for the socialist theory.
The autopen incident is no big deal. It certainly may be something to be explored legally. They are right,it may or may not be legal. From a practical standpoint,no one is suggesting that Obama did not approve of and want to sign the bill into law. Its just some legal hair splitting over whether he can delegate that power. The best way to proceed would be to throw it over to the supreme court,and allow them to make a decision. In the interim,it might be best not to use a surrogate until its settled. Its not a big deal. its not a huge political crisis. Its just a part of the constitution that's not 100% crystal clear. Lets just stop trying to turn every little insignificant thing into a political crisis. Its not like he did something crazy and tried to say the president has the power to order ,say,torture and not be bound by US law.
Its just a confusion over what a signature is defined as because technology has altered that a bit. I have a diploma that was signed by Arnold Schwarzenegger,then governor of California. But actually,its not,it was probably done with one of those auto-pens. I get checks signed by the treasurer,but again,its not REALLY his signature. In many places using such a device is considered standard practice. Lets just decide if its OK here,or not and then,if its not,they can re-pass it and he can resign it and we can be done with it. And of course,as it stands now its law. The supreme court can stay that if they choose,or they can let it go. If it turns out that it was not permissible to sign it like that,the new bill can make it retroactive. Its a small issue so long as the people in Washington lay off the politics for a bit and simply DO THEIR DAMN JOBS.
Michael M, It's election time.... Obama will be a centrist, moderate... just like he did before the 2010 elections in an effort to keep control of Congress (how'd that work out?). He/They will do anything it takes to hang on! ! If reelected (God Forbid), you can be assured he will return to being a leftist! Meanwhile none of the real issues get solved. Don't be fooled by the smokes and mirrors of the liberals!
Why are Republicans against using technology to save time & money?
Imagine the cost involved if the documents had to be sent by courier to the President? It would incur loss of time and cost.
and the rethugs would have wanted to somehow cut something else to pay for the courier.
The same could be said of Obama. We have technology (skype), to be able to teleconference meetings such as the G8 Summit. Why don't they use it? It would certainly save money, not to mention lessening that carbon footprint...
On an earlier article, I didn't read the part about the "auto-pen" usage and I posted a comment about the waste of flying these documents to Europe. I totally agree with using the auto-pen but find that it would have been unnecessary if this bill would have been brought to the floor and voted on earlier instead of at the last minute. Additionally, the auto-pen wouldn't have been needed if Obama and the rest of the world would have used the technology that I've suggested..
Dude, are you for real? Skype for a world leaders summit? That's the most absurd thing I've heard since....the BP hearings!
Get a grip SteveYo.. I only used "skype" as a reference. The point, that was being made, is that technology is so far advanced that most of the travel on Air-force One is unnecessary. If gurudev thinks that only the Republicans need to arrive into the 21st century, she/he is sadly mistaken, don't you agree?
This "autopen" thing is totally overblown by the media. Unless we require the President to stay in Washington full time things are going to get passed in Congress while he's out of town or out of the country. It would be nice if Congress could vote on things before the absolute last minute but that's not how they work.
It isn't as if they had Vice President Biden sign something that President Obama wouldn't have signed. The final decision to sign it was still made by Obama, he just wasn't in town to sign it in person.
The bigger story should be...SHOULD THE PATRIOT ACT HAVE BEEN EXTENDED...not the fact that it was signed by autopen.
Like him or hate him George W. Bush and the Republican Congress put through a very powerful law in the Patriot Act. Under President Obama it has been used very effectively, but sooner or later we have to ask ourselves if the powers of the Patriot Act are actually okay.
Not requiring a search warrant from a judge for Federal Agents in certain circumstances scares the hell out of me. The reason we required search warrants in the first place was to protect people from abuse by the government.
I do find it amusing that 10 years ago the conservatives who championed the Patriot Act took a beating from the Liberals who are now the champions...has the world changed that much in 10 years?
"CATHY M.-647265
Could the Republicans become more petty? I don't think so. All the gnashing of teeth, while our healthcare problems still are not being addressed, while the rich get richer on the backs of the elderly and poor and children. While oil companies get subsidies? Give me a break...you petty small people."
You are aware Democrats historically have controlled the house and senate for well over 60% of the past 75 years right? So if you wish you complain about how our country has become the way it is take equal blame. Both sides are more worried about buying votes (spending money through policy) and cutting deals with their buddies than they are taking care of the American people. Clearly I side with the ideas of the right wing but blame should be spread equally for allowing our once great nation to slowly deteriorate. There must be a way to right the ship, but it certainly is not in Washington as I type this note.
With conservatives looking for a united base and 2012 right around the corner you'd think they'd be more careful not to make a horse's azz out of themselves. If everyone involved knows the bills are signed by a surrogate then his argument is little else but asinine. And YOU pushed for this legislation so sit the hell down and shut the f up.
Michael M. All very valid points. But as you point out those things that concern individuals...diplomas, checks...etc are one thing. Laws that affect 300+ million people are a little different (hughely). And just to reply to FactofTheMatter what the heck has having dinner with the frigging Queen of England (where once again he sticks his foot in his mouth) got to do with G8?
I don't know if robo-signing is legal, or Constitutional. However, I am very uncomfortable with the precedent. In my opinion, if the President cannot do his job properly (sign a bill into law with his own hand), he should not be President. I do not know, but I don't believe we have ever had a President incapable of signing a bill into law. Certainly some bills must have piled up while previous Presidents traveled outside of the US or within it.
I would definitely like the US Supreme Court to rule on the legality of this issue, as it would appear that such a practice is ripe for abuse.
Why signing documents have to be constitutional?
Are we going to debate if the politicians including the president use a feather dipped in ink to sign documents instead of using a ball point pen or a fountain pen?
Murray--this was Congress' fault...not the President's. The President was scheduled to be out of town and Congress knew it. It was Congress that took until the last possible moment to pass this bill which Obama had to sign for it to not expire.
We either need to accept the technology that allows the President to sign a bill without being present...OR...we need to put laws in place that confine the President to Washington DC during his term so that everything Congress sends to his desk gets immediate attention.
We do have a Secretary to State...let her go pal around in Europe for a week and make Obama sit at his desk waiting for Congress to send something his way.
How many of us have faxed a signed document somewhere because we couldn't get the original in on time? That's all the President did...he just did it with a law.