Telling the Truth:

When I was a kid I was taught the importance of telling the truth; it was a sign of character to tell the truth. One could sleep at night
knowing that what was said today was truthful and it was not necessary to fabricate a story to cover a lie.

Now politicians have always lied, but what has changed is the new technology: cell phones with cameras and recording
devices are everywhere. Almost all personal contacts are recorded and a click away from being on You-Tube.

Politicians hate tough questions and really want to avoid the media. I recall after Sarah Palin was picked by McCain, she went into seclusion for almost a month to be prepped on how to answer media questions. Then there was Sharon Angle who would literally run from the press to avoid those pesky questions. Now we have Newt Gingrich running and dodging questions. This tactic is evolving into Republicans not talking to mainstream media and just
talking to Fox News or other conservative outlets.

It’s those tough questions that flush-out what candidates really believe, what they want to do if they are elected to office. The
governors from Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, Maine, and New Hampshire did not answer the tough questions and now voters feel remorse that the person they voted for turned out to be untrustworthy and quite frankly a liar.

But there is a group that has no soul: The flip-floppers. At the top of the list is he GOP frontrunner, Mitt Romney. At one point Romney called the automotive rescue tragic; then when the rescue was a
resounding success; his people claim that Romney had the idea first. Similar examples can be given on his positions on climate change, immigration and healthcare. The man has no sense of the truth or what he believes.

Other examples can be given regarding Tim Pawlenty, Newt Gingrich, Michele Bachman, Sarah Palin and Jon Huntsman. Apparently they just don’t care what they have said in the past.
Looking at this cast of characters, there isn’t a legitimate candidate
in the bunch.

Well, I certainly have learned the message of the NY 26^th special election. Up until now I have supported fiscal responsibility for SS and Medicare. This would require changes to these programs that no one would like very much.

But, screw that: I WANT EVERYTHING I’VE BEEN PROMISED!!!!

I am contacting my elected officials in Washington and demanding that they leave SS and Medicare completely alone. Further, I am part of the age group that will suffer from delayed eligibility for full SS benefits at 65. I ask all the FR lefty liberals to join me in demanding that the 1983 law increasing the full eligibility age to 67 be repealed and anyone affected by it be reimbursed in full, including interest.

And what about those people in future generations that may find the SS and Medicare cupboard bare? In the immortal words of Al Bundy “Don’t know, don’t care. It’s not my problem.”

I WANT EVERYTHING I’VE BEEN PROMISED!!!!

Whew!

After the events of this week - I'm exhausted!

Happy Memorial Day everyone!

Let's all take a moment out of our busy lives and, honor those who have fought, bled and died for this great country!

I'm bringing some Mesquite chicken breasts and my famous potato salad to the picnic over @ the Dew Drop Inn!

See you all there! ;o)

Ron:

Great post to end a interesting week. The tea leaves appear to be on the side of truth lately. GOP/TP Governors are being called out and some of their spending cuts are being reversed by the courts. The recall elections are moving forward and the Ryan Bill is exposed for what it is, and a "Fiscal Responsible" program it is not. It is just the opposite and it does in fact repeal Medicare and Medicaid as we know it today into a real bad idea that will fail. That fact can not be disputed any longer.

I WANT EVERYTHING I’VE BEEN PROMISED!!!!

You must of missed this huh?

Get a load of this!

Rob Woodall Won't Give Up Government Health Care 'Because It's Free' (VIDEO)

WASHINGTON -- Moments after preaching extreme self-reliance to one of his constituents, a Georgia Republican told a gathering in his district that he will continue to rely on government-subsidized health care "because it's free."

The exchange continued. In video provided to HuffPost by another constituent, Woodall was asked why -- if he believes in such self reliance -- he doesn't forgo his government health care plan.

"I have a question about taking care of you. You have government subsidized health care, but you are not obligated to take that if you don't want to. Why aren't you going out on the fee market in the state where you're a resident and buy your own health care? Be an example," said a constituent in the new video.

"Your question is," Woodall responded, "my government's willing to give me lots and lots of stuff for free and why don't I take it?"

Freshman Rep. Rob Woodall, who served as chief of staff to his predecessor, made national news earlier this week for comments he made, captured on video by Patch.com, to a retired constituent who told him her company does not provide retiree benefits.

"Hear yourself, ma'am. Hear yourself," Woodall told the woman. "You want the government to take care of you, because your employer decided not to take care of you. My question is, 'When do I decide I'm going to take care of me?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/rob-woodall-health-care_n_866859.html

These right wing bastards are beyond belief!

Give it a rest Joey will ya? From the sound of you, you're gonna stroke out any minute!

Feisty:

See you there at the DDI. I will be at Camp Johnson later today in honor of our fallen comrades. They are dedicating a new memorial to honor all the Vermont Veterans that have paid the ultimate price to keep this great Nation "FREE". I am proud as a VET to be invited to this event.

God Bless America and my special thanks to all our Military People past and present for their sacrifice and service to this country. You are some of our most precious blood and I salute you all this weekend.

Navy:

As always you too have written a great post. It is an honor to follow you. I don't know what happened this morning as I sent this post to FT. The sentences were broken up and I'm not sure why. But the message is still there.

To all First Read bloggers. Have a safe Memorial Day, remember those who paid the supreme sacrifice, and watch the greatest spectacle in racing--the Indy 500. I won't be there, but I'll be watching.

OK, Shipwreck, I have defend my governor's decision regarding the school budgets.

First of all, do you know that the school budget in NJ is $8 billion for this year? That money is not divided evenly among the 590 school districts in NJ. The 31 districts that will receive the additional $500 million already recieve over $5 billion from the state.

Please explain to me why about 5% of the school districts receive almost 60% of the money. Does that make sense? And do you really think that an additional $500 million going to those "poor and low income schools" will really make it into the classrooms, much less make a difference if it does? That money could have gone to better use in paying down the state's deficit or in giving NJ homeowners some much needed property tax relief, but, no, it is basically being flushed down the toilet and you think it's a good thing.

If these "poor and low income schools" can't make it with $5 billion dollars now, what difference will another $500 million make?

http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2011/05/25/news/doc4ddbb3c52098f095609014.txt?viewmode=fullstory

http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2011/05/25/news/doc4ddbb3c52098f095609014.txt?viewmode=fullstory

@Ron

But there is a group that has no soul: The flip-floppers. At the top of the list is he GOP frontrunner, Mitt Romney.

How do you leave Barack Obama off this list?

Bush Tax rates

Health care Individual Mandate

Patriot Act

Oil Companies Windfall Tax

Re-negotiation of NAFTA

Public Funding of Presidential Campaign

Jerusalem (Divided or not)

...and none of these are trivial issues.

Oh I forgot, Barack Obama is a Democrat

Great posts that contain some pretty sane observations, Navy and Ron. Truth, indeed. Lots and lots of it.

Joe's post was fun also. It reminds me of Lucy in 'A Charlie Brown Christmas' (or was it his little sister??)- "all I want is what I have coming to me".

Happy Firday, folks. And remeber all those that have passed before us this weekend.

"firday"- it's like Friday, only for guys that can't type.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

It appears by what is happening lately that the American People are not going to buy into this plan no matter how they try to repackage it, spin it, lie, or what ever else they try to do. But 2012 is still a long way off and if nothing else they (GOP/TP) are persistent and creative.

Navy

an excellent summation of the week from the heartland to the Capitol. It's really bad for the right

From the sound of you, you're gonna stroke out any minute!

___________________________

Not at all. I have simply accepted the reality that a majority of the American people have their hands out looking for benies from the govt. and they are not going to listen to anyone preaching fiscal responsibility. So, why waste MY time?? I'm now going to concentrate my efforts on getting all the govt benies I can, just like the majority of Americans. I wiil still be fiscally conservative with MY money and so I'll have the best of all worlds: I've got mine, and others too through the govt.

Hell, who knows, I might even enjoy being taken care of by lefty liberals.

No Joe, Albany, what people want is fairness and shared sacrifice. What republicans fail to tell the American people is that the Affordable Health Care Act added 12 years life to the current medicare system through elimination of government-subsidized dollars for private medicare policies to cover their 20-30% administrative costs (the govt administers Medicare with 3% administrative costs), electronic medical records transmission so that expensive tests are not repeated by every specialist a patient sees, by cutting out redundancy in paperwork.

No, Joe Albany, everyone understands Medicare needs reform for the future but they also understand that giving another 10% in tax cuts to the richest 2% of the population and asking 98% of us who have worked and paid into the Medicare system to be the only ones who sacrifice is not just, reasonable or remotely fair. Medicare works, it works well and people like it. It works well because it is not traded on the stock market, does not pay multi-million dollar CEO salaries or provide earnings to shareholders. Medicare works because it is NOT for profit.

Great way to end the week US Navy, Ron.

OK, Shipwreck,

You really are a joke on humanity. Christie is going the way of Walker, Scott and Kaisch. It does not surprise me you support him as you are part of the same problem with this country. It is all about you and only you.

Hope that works for you, but it looks like more and more people are not buying your snake oil anymore. You and your henchmen have been exposed as the anti-American party and you do not like it. Too Bad.

Navy,

1. NW -26?

Didn't the Repubs lose most of the special elections before the 2010 elections? How did 2010 turn out?

You can have your little flukey little special elections - we'll take the big ones, but by all means - do feel free to fool your self all you want.

2. Ryan's Bill 57 - 40?

Seems like they voted on Obama's budget, did you miss that?

REJECTED 97 - O. How humilating is that!

Obama did not get 1 vote.

What kind of confidence is that in this guy's economic recovery programs?

What kind of confidence is that IN this guy's grasp of economics?

How could he be discredited any further - NOT EVEN A SINGLE DEMOCRAT'S VOTE!

@ Judge Joe ~

Don't know what you've been promised, but in the true spirit of liberal generosity, I certainly hope you get whatever you deserve.

the Affordable Health Care Act added 12 years life to the current medicare system

_________________________________________

Jody, I guess the Medicare Trustees (ALL Barry appointees) didn't get that memo because the just issued their 2011 Report saying Medicare will go bankrupt in 2024, five years sooner than last years report.

Jody;

Thank you for the kind words.

DBO:

I thank you also

You guys have a great Memorial Weekend and remember our troops past and present for their sacrifices to this great Nation.

Little Bobbie Numbers:

Don't you think that Sen Reid knew there was NO votes for the Bill. All he did was clean the plate of garbage so they can move on and not deal with old issues.

I stand by my posts and as far as credibility goes, you have probably one of the lowest scores on this board, PERIOD. The only people with lower scores are NoJo and JS1.

Ignore the MUSHROOMS - they are still living in the dark and eating GOP/TP wastes.

That's your response, Shipwreck??? That I'm a "joke on humanity". Wow!!! Such an insightful comment!!! Thank you so much for that well thought out reply.

So, in other words, you can't really defend the NJ Supreme Court's decision to waste another $500 million on these schools? You know that that money could be better used elsewhere, but your pathetic ideology won't let you see that. It's not all about me, my disabled friend. It's about doing what's right for all of the people in New Jersey. I see that clearly. I wonder why you can't?

I wiil still be fiscally conservative with MY money and so I'll have the best of all worlds: I've got mine, and others too through the govt.

Don't be to sure Joe. In the last congress Nancy Pelosi floated the idea of tapping private 401(k)s to "save" Social Security. Then there is the little matter of removing the cap on SS contributions but keeping the benefits the same. Finally, you could be very responsible and save enough for your retirement by sacrificing now, only to get hit by means testing in retirement.

As reported by ThinkProgress and our own Burlington Free Press:

Last month, the Vermont Senate passed legislation, approved earlier by the House, that would establish a single payer health care system in the state. The legislation would make Vermont the first state in the nation to, as Gov. Peter Shumlin (D) said, make health care “a right and not a privilege.”

The governor’s office just confirmed for ThinkProgress that Shumlin signed the legislation into law this morning, making the state the first in American history to pass legislation that will establish a single payer health care system to provide care to all citizens. Now that the law is signed, Vermont will spend the next four years setting up the system and preparing it for implementation.

In order to actually enact the system, the state needs a waiver from the Affordable Care Act health reform law. Currently, the federal government will start handing out state waivers in 2017 — three years after Vermont wants to implement its system. Rep. Peter Welch (D-VT) has introduced an amendment that would move the waiver date up to 2014, an idea that President Obama has endorsed

@Chris, NJ

It's not all about me, my disabled friend. It's about doing what's right for all of the people in New Jersey. I see that clearly. I wonder why you can't?

Because Chris Navy thinks that money grows on trees. He doesn't grasp the fact that this $500M is not new money but will be funds diverted from another need (maybe reducing property taxes on retirees for example). Most people on this board do grasp the fact that there is a limited amount of resources but an unlimited demand for services. Instead they think there are unlimited resources that should be used to heal the social injustices of the world.

I saw this when I try to argue that Medicare cannot continue in its present form. Instead of debate on allocation of resources the name calling starts and there is no debate on priorities. It's really sad. I just hope the same fools who ignored this coming crisis are in power when the @!$%# hits the fan. The unfortunate thing is is that we will all be in the @!$%#.

In oneness, let remember those who together, laid their lives for you and me. they fought and died for U.S.A. Rest in peace, the GREAT ONES.

To Democrats and Allies, what a huge week it's been. it's a huge victory for true freedom. Huge victory for shared sacrifice and above all, a huge victory for common sense.

DBO

"all I want is what I have coming to me". Well said.

I stand by my posts and as far as credibility goes, you have probably one of the lowest scores on this board, PERIOD. The only people with lower scores are NoJo and JS1.

In the words of VP Biden "Big @!$%#en Deal"

Chris, Navy you two will argue about the cost of education for a very long time.

To be fair, you need to follow the money...trace its spending path. I have not begun on the State of New Jersey. It's very difficult task because those receiving the funds are in charge the financial reports. Let me tell you...as much as you want to believe the opposite, schools are not that transparent.

So far, I am working on 9 western states, the money is being hoarded by "Administrative costs". At UC Berkeley, one history professor with 25 years in his current position, is making $75,000; compared with a local high school history teacher at $125,000. But, administrative costs have risen 439% compared to 42% for teachers over the last 10 years . Administrators need to hide the fact that they have employed cronies and family members, etc...some have proven to be just as crafty as a politician.

Chris...come up with some numbers; not the governor's or the press' spin. Navy, keep pressing him for them. For both, follow the money and then report back to us. I think both of you will be enlightened and surprised. Remember, each school district and university system is different; you can't lump them all together in one basket...that is the issue I would have with Governor Christy.

For all, have wonderful and safe time celebrating and remembering our fallen military veterans.

In the words of VP Biden "Big @!$%#en Deal"

So Alan, in essense, what you're saying is, credibility has NO place in your world...

Why am I not surprised? lol

Welcome to ConservatiVille - where credibility is no BIG f*ckin deal and home of the afraid!

So Alan, in other words, credibility has NO place in your world...

It was aimed at the reference to lower scores on this board. A metric that has absolutely no credibility. For example if I wanted to raise "my score" I would simply cut and paste Think Progress or Daily Kos.

As VP Biden said "big @!$%#en Deal".

BTW Hows that bi-partisan public pension bill in Illinois working for you? I hear a Democrat voted Present. Where have I heard that before?

I wouldn't be worrying too much about IL Alan, you've got a BIG enough mes going on in your own rat hole!

It was aimed at the reference to lower scores on this board

REALLY? lol

Tell us, isn't it difficult to back-peddle on that unicycle of yours"

Navy was REFERRING to the SERIAL liars who roam around here, and simply pointed out some of the biggest offenders...

JTP:

You make a very good point. In Vermont we have way to many Educational Districts, each their own little kingdom. Our Governor is trying to take it from something like 36 Districts down to less than a dozen and use the savings (millions of dollars) to improve k-12 education which is in trouble. We have quite a few schools that are not making the grade so to speak.

I hope he does this and you are correct, we do need to follow the money with open eyes. We have HS that have a Principal, 2 Assistants, etc, where just one would do.

Our education system does need a major overhaul in Vermont, as does the country. I have been on several organizations trying to get people to listen. Throwing more money at the problem is not the answer. It may help upgrade schools and provide more resources like computers, Internet, updated books and training materials but we need more than that. Parents also need to get more involved in their childrens education and stop looking at teachers as baby sitters. We need to look at schools that are successful and take from them those things that would work for us here. Not everything they do may be appropriate for everybody but we need to do something. I wish I had the answers.

Thanks again for your words and post.

Navy,

a couple of questions if you have the time. First, why can't you answer Chris' question about if you think giving an extra $500 million to schools that already gets $5 billion is going to make them better, instead of trying to put Chris down personaly. Two, you are happy that the Senate didn't pass the Ryan plan, when do you think the Senate will PASS a budget (please don't whine about the Rebs filibustering, have them be a leader and do what it takes to pass one). Third - now that your state has passed a single payer health bill have they decided if it applies to the illegal immigrants? I hope so, that way they may leave my state (MA) and we can maybe decrease our budget.

Feisty:

Pretty thin skinned are they not. They can dish it out but not very good at getting it thrown back at them. I was just pointing out exactly what you said and they in mass get their little panties in a bunch. These are the same people that day in and day out get exposed for their lies and misinformation. They change the words of posters to try a make a point, they quote the talking points of the day as if they were facts, they change the direction when they get cornered, yadda yadda yadda. The same old same old play book from Karl Rove and they are mad because we will not let them get away with it here any longer. And these are the type of people that want to control this country. God help us all.

President Obama in 2012

Here's a link to show what is being paid out this year:

http://www.state.nj.us/education/stateaid/1011/

It will surprise you.

So, if you are against just throwing more money at the problem, then why do think that throwing more money at the problem is a good thing in this case? I can't follow that logic.

Rick, it is perfectly fine if he wants to attack me personally. I'm cool with that. I've been calling him "Shipwreck" for a few weeks now, so it's understandable if he wants to attack me personally. I could have gone with "Torpedo" or "Wet-Suit" or "Keel-Haul", but I like "Shipwreck". It's a cooler sounding nickname in my opinion.

Journey toward peace:

But, administrative costs have risen 439% compared to 42% for teachers over the last 10 years . Administrators need to hide the fact that they have employed cronies and family members, etc...some have proven to be just as crafty as a politician.

At the risk of inserting myself into the middle of this education debate, which believe me would do no good for anyone's blood pressure, I do have to comment that this is a very relevant detail that gets little or not attention. In my years as a teacher, we saw the number of administrators in my district essentially triple, while the number of students declined. Most administrators are paid way out of proportion to what they actually do. Many of them are afraid to deal with problem students and do not back up teachers when students give them grief. In this district where I currently live (but do not teach), this failure by administrators to do their jobs forces the union into court on a regular basis to get injunctions against students who threaten or bully staff members. The bad press associated with this then falls on the teachers. In my own experience, administrators hardly ever did their job of supervising teachers, and then complained that the union kept them from doing it. Once entrenched, a bad administrator is every bit as hard to remove as a teacher because school boards are often ineffectual when it comes to managing personnel, as well. The waste associated with education bureaucracy is responsible for far too large a share of education costs without producing any meaningful or tangible results. Poor administration is one of the main reasons I got out of education and into something else.

Of the many myths handed out from the right wing, the persistent claim that most Americans are shiftless, lazy, do-nothings expecting the government to take care of everything is about the nastiest slur on the nation.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, at the end of 2010, gross non-farm employment (not adjusted for seasonal variations) in the U.S. was 131,062,000. That's from a national population of around 309,000,000.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.compaeu.txt

Now, these figures include everyone, from CEOs to janitors.

That's NOT a picture of a nation comprised of lazy, indolent pigs feeding at a national trough. (Well, some other kinds of extremists might wish to include Wall Street and other overpaid executives, but that's an entirely different debate.)

Ofthe U.S. population, the "child dependency ration," or share of people who are dependent children not expected to be part of the working population, was 38.6% in 2009. That's a little over 119 million - about a third of the country. And while the Tea Party extremists are targeting child labor laws, most others do not regard dependent children as unmotivated, lazy, leeches.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-_box_head_nbr=GCT-T7-R&-ds_name=PEP_2009_EST&-format=U-40Sf

The "age dependency ratio" - or the total number of persons who are either too old or too young to be in the workforce - is reported at 59.2%. By itself that is a misleading number, for it includes wealthy retirees, elderly living with families, and others whose "dependency" does not include any government "handouts." Social Security and Medicare are NOT "handouts," but the equivalent of benefits from a paid-up insurance policy. (And I have written extensively on the matter of the debt the nation owes to the Social Security and Medicare trust funds - no need now to repeat that.)

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-_box_head_nbr=GCT-T6-R&-ds_name=PEP_2009_EST&-redoLog=false&-mt_name=PEP_2009_EST_GCTT7R_U40SF&-format=U-40Se

So far, there's no evidence of a nation mainly populated with lazy, idle, leeches living on government handouts. Instad, there's a picture of a hard-working country. There's a picture of young people who need good educations, good health, and a sense of optimism for the future, because they are the nation's future - young people the ultra-right has already abandoned with their terrible state budget slashes for education, health care and other important services. And those same young people are among the favorite targets of the ultra-right at the Federal level.

And then there are the aging and elderly. These are the people who brought the U.S. out of the Great Depression, a horrendous world war, conflicts in Korea and the Middle East, and Southeast Asia, who built the fantastic economy of the 1950's and 1960's, constructed an interstate highway system and the Internet, built fantastic aircraft and operated the trains and trucks delivering goods throughout the nation. Yeah, they're old now, out of the workforce - except, of course, for those whose life savings were burnt to a crisp in the Bush Recession. But they created the wealth of the nation and earned their retirement - not much of a picture of lazy, worthless bums looking for a handout.

The selfish, arrogant pigs in this country are most easily found in the conservative movement - the 22% of voters who identify with the Tea Party. And now some of them DARE to smear the well-earned good name of the people of the nation.

I still wish everyone would ignore Joe in Albany and the other trolls. They only come here to get attention and try to rile you guys up. And you keep falling for his crap. I know it's fun to try and put these trolls down, but they have no feelings it just makes them more vile when they get noticed.

Coming to FR late this morning I see Conservatives spinning their wheels frantically in a futile effort to establish a false choice. It's a difficult task because it's a choice that needs to be masked and disguised. Any look at the facts and falls apart immediately.

Conservatives are trying to sell us a narrative that our state and federal budgets can only be brought into balance by draconian cuts to services coupled with enormous handouts to the rich.

There it is, that's the Conservative plan. Laid bare it's striking in both its unfairness and its absurdity. IF we're giving huge benefits to the wealthy elites, why must the middle class and needy suffer so greatly? IF the budgets are in that much trouble, how can we afford to shower the upper classes with so much tax reduction?

Conservatives would have you believe that Democrats want to continue on the present path. That isn't the case. Everyone knows Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid require adjustments for long-term solvency. Everyone knows the increased spending that owes to the Bush Recession will and must return to normal levels as the economy recovers. Everyone knows that revenue and spending are out of balance to an extent that can't continue indefinitely.

Conservatives seek to misrepresent this situation to destroy the social safety net, fundamentally reshape our society, and enrich those who need the least help.

Conservatives are trying to sell us a narrative that our state and federal budgets can only be brought into balance by draconian cuts to services coupled with enormous handouts to the rich.

Do you want a debate or will you revert to name calling if you don't get agreement?

1. How do you finance the retirement of a cop, fire fighter or teacher who works for 25 years and then is retired for 25 years? Increased in Life expectancy. Do you agree that states should move to the defined contribution model.

2. How do you support 1 retiree on SS (with no cut in benefits) with 2 workers when the average ratio in the past was between 8 and 12 workers per retiree? Baby-Boomer demographics. Do think the cap on SS should be removed? Completely or stop at 90% of all income (re: Peoples Budget)

3. What is the difference in the amount that Healthcare reform will remove from Medicare compared to the Ryan proposal?

4. What is the acceptable tax rates to pay for this all? I've seen claims that the top rate of tax under the Peoples Budget at 60%+. Do you think this is acceptable. I am not arguing against I just want to know what tax rate the richest should pay. What about the rest of us?

My question to all is why do conservatives continue to hate so many and brand people who are against these Republican-Tea Party planned bills as low life losers?

I say no cuts in the budget that affect the poor, middle class and peoples health. If you cut these programs now, we will pay later.

It was proven by FDR that we have to spend money within our country for growth. So, where do you cut spending? To listen to the right it is Medicare, Social Security, social programs, such as Planned Parenthood and education cuts. We have the super rich and the dirt poor, with the middle class being pushed to the category of the dirt poor and well the rich get richer, with their perks and level low taxes they pay. Also, have you heard? The Republicans have a new Jobs Plan. Lower taxes again.

Please bring back the Clinton era take levels and raise the cap on Social Security and quit playing these games with peoples lives. Then do away with the tax subsidies that the tax payers give big oil and companies that ship jobs overseas in which no Republican in the house is willing to do.

And please don't say the Democrats haven't a budget plan. There are so many pieces being put together by the Vice- President and his group with the President weighing in which will be much better than the plan Paul Ryan through together.

Finally, you could be very responsible and save enough for your retirement by sacrificing now, only to get hit by means testing in retirement.

__________________________________________

Alan: A couple of comments:

1. I hear what you are saying, but, I don't consider being fiscally conservative to be "sacraficing". I have simply lived within my means and been prudent with my retirement investments. I actually enjoy managing them. It is an intelectual challenge and, so far, it's been profitable. There is nothing I need or want that I cannot afford.

2. Re: "means testing", I have always presumed that I will get nothing from SS in my retirement planning projections. Anything I do get is extra "party money". Plus, if the Dems do institute means testing, I will gleefully point out that is not what FDR promised Americans and the Dems have turned it into a welfare program. Either way, I win.

Hey all you Obama Cheerleaders/Bush haters - please tell us how it is Obama is any different from Bush. Forget the new war, Gitmo, rendition and the rest that he is continuing or increasing.

The frigging Patriot Act? I can't stand the Patriot Act. Yet here we go re-upping it for 4 more years.

I thought you all were progressives and all about freedoms and such. Yet nary a bad word from any of you libbies when Obama re-institutes Bush's law. Hmmm.

Oh and DBO - did you happen to catch Wasserman-Schultz's ride? Sure she all about the dem "buy America" crap, except when it comes to her. Seems she's got a nice litte Inifiniti FX 35. Now me, I'd have totally gone for the FX 45 - a 4.5 v-8, but certainly not a vehicle produce by an American car company.

John A.-400474

Of the many myths handed out from the right wing, the persistent claim that most Americans are shiftless, lazy, do-nothings expecting the government to take care of everything is about the nastiest slur on the nation.

Thank you SO much for this post and the information that you provided to refute this myth. I keep wondering who these lazy sloths that take handouts are--the ones that the conservative posters keep referring to. At this moment, I'm in an email back-and-forth with a conservative Baptist pastor in my town who speaks out about political issues from his pulpit. In one sermon from last year, he criticized the Health Care Reform bill, saying, "Health care is a privilege, not a right." He said that access to health care was earned. Well, what if you don't have a job? You just die? Wow, that's a Christian attitude!

Just yesterday, he sent me the following sentences and asked if I thought there would be any problem using them in a sermon:

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read:

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to
work, because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
--Dr. Adrian Rogers

It's not that there isn't any truth to these statements. Of course, if half the population sat around and did nothing, we'd be in a pickle. I just don't even know where to start to explain to him why I feel these sentences don't belong in a sermon. I mean, he could just expound on the proverb of talents or the story of the grasshopper and the cricket. Every person who can work, should work--it is better for themselves and for our country. However, these sentences imply that if you need help, it's a sin.

Notice how in 1.40 Alan takes a point from my post 1.39 and applying the Conservative argument EXACTLY as stated? He quoted me as saying;

Conservatives are trying to sell us a narrative that our state and federal budgets can only be brought into balance by draconian cuts to services coupled with enormous handouts to the rich.

Then tried to make a case that our state and federal budgets can only be brought into balance by draconian cuts to services. Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz makes a very strong argument that the specific piece that's most missing from the Conservative philosophy is doing the things that are necessary for a strong and vibrant economy. Their plan is to "cut to profitability." That doesn't work in the private sector, you'd think the folks who believe "government should be run like a business" would know that.

Next he'll demand to know why I haven't answered his questions. The answer to that is simple--he hasn't bothered to answer my points, there's no reason for me to answer his.

John A.-400474
Great research on your part.

Great post, Bethie. It's good that you acknowledge that there's a grain of truth in what the preacher sent to you. There's always a grain of truth in stereotypes--those grains of truth are just blown out of proportion and used to justify an improper conclusion.

Joe don't act like SS and medicare is a gift, I have paid in all my life well over $200,000 the government took that money from me so don't act like I want everything coming to me that I never paid for. I want what I paid for or cut me check for my deposits if I'm not gonna see the benefits. How do you expect people 54 and under that have paid in for years expect to feel about the Ryan plan. In any event you don't have to worry about convincing liberals until you have convinced Ryan's grandmother and all the other republican grampy's and granny's. Republican lawmakers can't even get their parents to vote for this. How about you Joe, you talk a good game but are you going to vote to end your SS and medicare. Me I want what I paid for or I want my money back, that is part of capitalism too isn't it.

Another Newsvine blogger this morning posted an outstanding article about the condition of medicare and Social Security - and related it to the proposed GOP/TP cuts. The author, Better Careful, wrote at http://bettercareful.newsvine.com/_news/2011/05/26/6721904-facts-on-social-security-and-medicare-republicans-dont-want-you-to-know?threadId=3136752&commentId=54560063#c54560063....

Contrary to right-wing claims, Medicare and Social Security are not only solvent, but full of money. That's the entire point: were those funds actually broke, Republicans wouldn't be interested in raiding them one teeny-tiny little bit. (Grow up or wise up if you think that's an inaccurate statement.)

For Social Security alone, in 2009, total income was $$697.3 Billion. Total outlay or disbursements were $551.5 Billion, for a net increase in the Fund of $145.7 Billion. The year-end balance in the Social Security fund, alone, was $2.3 Trillion. That balance has gone up every year, without fail, since 1940 (the first year on which records are available for this study.) Yet, the right-wing claims we need to take all that money and put it into private pockets in order to save all that money for those it belongs to, that is, you and I. They tell us that we're bad people to think we're entitled to our own money, and that somehow they being entitled to what's ours is somehow good.

The entire article is pretty concise and worth a read,

Grump: See my post #1.2 above.

I WANT EVERYTHING I’VE BEEN PROMISED!!!!

@John B

To be honest John I didn't expect any answers from you and I've reread both your posts and I still don't know what questions you were asking? This is what I've found here. You really don't want debate you just want agreement. The only part of your post that seems to want a response is

IF we're giving huge benefits to the wealthy elites, why must the middle class and needy suffer so greatly? IF the budgets are in that much trouble, how can we afford to shower the upper classes with so much tax reduction?

The rest of your post seems to be commentary or statement. I'll admit then I answered your questions with a question - What do you think the level of taxation should be? I an a fiscal conservative and don't really consider myself conservative, republican or any other label to be honest. I was against the Bush tax rates in 2001, 2003 and 2010, so I'm not against raising taxes. However, and again I'm open to debate, I think removing deductions and lowering rates is a better way of raising revenues than keeping the current system and raising rates. That was a positive from the Ryan plan and then again we can debate whether the rates proposed were too low/high given the current economic conditions. You agree that entitlements need to be reformed but give no details of how you either agree with the administration's ideas (through HCR) or disagree with a private sector solution as proposed in the Ryan plan. What I find depressing is how posters here lapse in name calling and tit-for-tat comments. All I can tell you is that it is my opinion that entitlements have to be reformed and in the case of Medicare seriously reformed. Again, if you ever look over my previous posts I was for Death Panels because I believe there has to be some form rationing. I also think that some form of market solution has to be included because government bureaucracies are not good agents of change and tend to protect the status quo. I find the demagoguery of both sides on this issue to be depressing.

I don't know if I answered any of your questions but as I say I'm looking for reasoned debate so clarify if you want.

This is off topic but I wanted you folks to be the first to know:

I am now considering running for the republican nomination, you guys can be my exploratory committee (you got to volunteer I can't pay anybody).

The competition now, Newt, Romney, Palin, Pawlenty and Santorum, heck I think I got a shot, and if I skip my Zantac, I will soon have the fire in my belly.

If you don't want a Newt, a Mitt, a Twit, a Bump, a Rump or a Trump, vote for a Grump.

bethie ~ Did you ask your preacher if he sent those sentences to Jesus for approval?

I sincerely doubt they would have survived that particular scrutiny, being almost exactly the opposite of Jesus's teachings. As for #4, for example, the parable of the loaves and fishes comes directly to mind. As for #5, perhaps he ought to adopt the wisdom of the Chinese proverb that if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day, but if you teach him to fish, he will eat for a lifetime. Seems republicans have forgotten the second half of that in their zeal to justify not sharing what they have with others.

Forrest:

Me I want what I paid for or I want my money back, that is part of capitalism too isn't it.

Indeed, it is. And thanks for explaining it so clearly for Joe's benefit. As I have found, that is a very hard thing to do.

OK! The Ryan plan sucks. So what should the plan be? Cut the DOD budget and tax the rich. Will that fix SS and medicare? What would be a good tax rate for the rich? I'm open for any idea's but until then I will not expect to get SS or medicare (or any of my money back). I'm one of the people that is under 50 and have little hope that either party will fix it.

Joe, I read your post a long time ago. I want what I PAID for or I want my money back. Nobody promised me I would ever live to to see any of it but I paid in good faith, I paid a lot. Cut me a check for a couple hundred grand and then I'll walk away until then I consider it un-American to let somebody cheat me out of what I paid for. It is called an entitlement program because in America you are entitled for what you pay for, you staunch capitalists darn well know this.

Chris from Cranbury, how does Narcissist fit you for a "nickname". Or how about "IAAC" (it's All About Chris). Let me know the insult of your choosing. I will oblige on Navy's behalf. Hell on behalf of all my liberals friends here.

If you're too busy defending the blowhole that is your governor, i can understand. I don't think Navy was necessarily defending the appropriation of the funds, but merely pointing out another over-reach as decided by the Supreme Court of the Armpit State of New Jersey.

Ever hear the phrase "Don't Jersey my state!"

Thank you, John A. I found that article extremely helpful, and especially this link to a breakdown, year by year, of the social security funds.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/fyOps.html

By now we know what Joe wants. What I want is to have Joe explain to me that $2.5 trillion surplus, as of the end of 2010 that shows up at the bottom of the page, based on SSA's own numbers, and then exactly how the system will go broke earlier than expected.

o

Bethe -

Your preacher's set of quotes reveal him to be one of those from the ultra-right that aver, "Taxation is theft."

You might want to spend a little time revisiting the Book of Acts, as well as Epistles. In them you will be reminded that the original principle of Christian communities was ... COMMUNITY.

They were, in fact, essentially collectives.

Your preacher is of the opposite persuasion - there is no "community" in his perspective.

It is necessary to return to first principles to deal with that worldview - which is reflected in the Tea Party movement and the influence of Grover Norquist on the ultra-right agenda.

1. Why is there a nation?

2. Does anyone benefit from forming a nation? If so, who?

3. Is there any group benefit, within a nation? If not, why is there a nation?

You can see for yourself where this basic discussion is headed. You could substitute "nation" with "economy," too.

The ultra-rght is dedicated to the Old Testament principle (first articulated, however, not in the Bible but the Code of Hammurabi) called the lex talionis: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. This is the retributive aspect of the law of the jungle that is the basic code of conservatism.

Unfortunately for any practicing Christians, including your pastor, that law was directly abolished by Jesus Christ, when he said that the new law had only two tenets - love of God, and love of neighbor.

Either your Pastor is a poseur pretending to be Christian, or he needs some re-education.

It is called an entitlement program because in America you are entitled for what you pay for, you staunch capitalists darn well know this.

__________________________

Hey, Grump, I'm with you 100%. You WILL get what you paid for, just not what you expected. That's not me saying that, it's Barry's Medicare Trustees saying that. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them, not me.

___________________________________________

What I want is to have Joe explain to me that $2.5 trillion surplus, as of the end of 2010 that shows up at the bottom of the page, based on SSA's own numbers, and then exactly how the system will go broke earlier than expected.

Sorry, AM. I've wasted more than enough of my time trying to explain to you what Barry' SS Trustees are saying in their SS report. If you want to understand it, I suggest you read their report.

By now we know what Joe wants. What I want is to have Joe explain to me that $2.5 trillion surplus, as of the end of 2010 that shows up at the bottom of the page, based on SSA's own numbers, and then exactly how the system will go broke earlier than expected.

Because it's a shell game. The $2.5T has already been spent by previous administrations. The government is currently running a $1.3T deficit. When SS takes in less than it pays out, in about a year or two, then a call will be made on that $2.5T. So the deficit will increase by the amount that SS needs. As more Baby-Boomers retire the greater the amount redeemed by the trust fund. To cover the deficit federal taxes will have to be raised or we will have to borrow more money. There is $2.5T in account with no assets to back it up. It's just a number in a ledger. An unfunded liability.

If you don't believe this explanation then there should be no arguments to remove the cap on SS contributions because by your logic we have enough money in the trust fund.

If you want to understand it, I suggest you read their report.

Very well, then. I do, and I will. Problem is, of course, what makes you think that reading the report will explain it to this stupid little liberal brain any better than you could?

Anyway. I think I already know the answer, which is that, with the arrival of baby-boomers into the SS pool, expenditures will now begin to outstrip collections, eating up the current surplus and ultimately rendering the fund broke, at least on paper, by 2024, or even sooner.

Let me know if I have that wrong.

And then, that being the case, that still begs two pretty big questions for me:

The first is why we don't just shore it up by adding additional revenues in the form of increased payroll taxes -- raising the SS maximum withholding amount, for example, or even just raising the payroll tax itself by, say, half a percent. From the chart I linked, it looks to me like half a percent on top of the current tax rate would produce a fairly large amount of additional revenue and could hardly kill anyone's fun, even yours.

The second relates to all you conservatives who avow that you do not intend to depend on SS yourselves. In the spirit of Christian generosity, why then don't you just volunteer NOT to take anything from Social Security so that those funds could be re-allocated among those who truly need them? Or, alternatively, just adopt the proverbial means test? I'm sure that applying this to just those conservatives who post here and claim not to need SS could make a pretty big dent in what has to be paid out over the next 10 years or so, meaning that the fund would stay solvent longer.

And just think what it might be like if everyone was as generous as you, Joe. What a wonderful world this would be.

There is $2.5T in account with no assets to back it up. It's just a number in a ledger. An unfunded liability.

Well, it was funded until it was raided, which is why I agree with Joe that it isn't just an accounting trick, and is really a part of our long-term structural debt. Those that raided it with impugnity -- i.e., Congress and the White House -- need to fess up, and then figure out a way to put it back, and then to figure out a way to shore up the funds. Period.

For the moment, however, and in the near term, wouldn't it suffice to raise additional revenue, e.g., through payroll taxes, each year only by the amount by which expenditures exceed current revenue? In other words, not pay the "surplus" debt back until our long-term budget issues are resolved. The surplus on paper can stay a surplus on paper for the long term as long as short-term needs are met, correct? And that's not as big an amount as you all try to scare us with, if those numbers in the chart are correct. If you defunded the wars, that alone would return almost as much as needed to the Treasury.

Retired US Navy, I've always loved your posts as well as your friends' such as Ron and Feisty Redhead, etc. I agree with you guys 99% of the time. However, I'm afraid that you may not know the situation in NJ that well. Many of the school districts in the state are corrupted, especially the low income districts. So much $$ have been poured into these districts with hardly any noticeable results.

Governor Chris Christy is one of the very very few republican politicians that I think is a decent human being. Though I don't agree with some of his policies, I really think he's sincere about helping the state of NJ. Unlike the extemely revolting and immoral bull@!$%#ter repub politicians that flooded the country in the past few years, gov Christy does seem to have some principle and decency. NJ is in a terrible state of deficit. It is deeply in debt. The school systems in many NJ districts need to be changed to be much more efficient and less wasteful. in fact, the school system is not the only problem. the families themselves are an even bigger factor in helping the students to improve. Gov. Christy's cutting school budget may not be exactly the right thing to do, but those millions and billions of $$ should be put to better use, like creating more family counselling programs and improving the social structures in those area, instead of spending too much on the infrastructure of the schools and salaries of the superintendents. The only thing I hope is that Christy won't join the rest of the repub bull@!$%#ters to make it their ultimate goal in making the low income (and probably the middle class) americans totally illiterate.

The first is why we don't just shore it up by adding additional revenues in the form of increased payroll taxes -- raising the SS maximum withholding amount, for example, or even just raising the payroll tax itself by, say, half a percent. From the chart I linked, it looks to me like half a percent on top of the current tax rate would produce a fairly large amount of additional revenue and could hardly kill anyone's fun, even yours.

Because there is nothing to stop the current administration, of whatever political philosophy, from spending the revenues just like the past. The lockbox argument. I would make the argument that SS tax should reflect the current needs of the system so that there is no surplus or deficit. On means testing then you are moving further away from the original intent that it was not intended to be a welfare program. In fact if you introduce means testing the argument can be made that you are destroying SS.

Alan - your most recent post is pretty close to the same points we agreed upon a while back. I think Anna Molly's general assessment is good, too.

There are, of course, TWO parts of the issue, to recap:

1. Future solvency of the trust fund as the ratio of contributors and beneficiaries moves closer to prity; and,

2. The component of national debt owed to both Medicare and Scoial Security trust funds.

The latter is what a lot of complainers consider a staggering share of the national budget and deficit, and think that means the taxpayers ae getting hit for the bills to pay out benefits. This specific misconception has to be cleared up.

The future solvency is not really so much of an issue if someone just starts paying back the trust fund money already borrowed. And that particular debt, as opposed to other kinds of debt, is amenable to restructuring to lower the demand on both current revenues and interest due. THAT debt is owed to the American people, not China or England or someone else - and it represents 60% of the total national debt.

Thus if the negotiators now talking about cuts in spending and the debt ceiling and so forth would simply devote a day's worth of chat to how a serious repayment plan for the trust fund loans could be established, it changes the entire debate.

In fact, it solves the problems. Bang!

Scrolling past most of the posts of this morning because they really say nothing new. Same old arguments, same old talking points. The libs will never change their stance or tactics. The only way they'd ever go republican is if Obama were to change party affiliation. Even then they might not sway. I'm not sure if it's Obama they love more, or they hate republicans so much. It's a crap shoot.

From the article: (By the way, a Jerusalem Post poll shows that by a 40%-12% margin, more Israeli Jews think President Obama is more Palestinian than Israeli.) It’s a reminder that it’s important to view world leaders through the same political lense we view our own.

Great point. There are a lot of Americans, Jews or non-Jews that believe Obama is more Palestinian than Israeli. Obama seems to always side against Israel. I believe Obama has lost most Jewish votes and they normally go Democrat. I'm certain he's not worried about it though since he'll make it up with illegal immigrant votes... well maybe not, he's pissed them off too.

Great week in Ireland? Too bad the people there can't vote for him... maybe they'll draft him after he leaves office. It appears as though Obama is slowly draining the swamp of prospective voters. It's narrowing down to the solid 14% of staunch liberals and a few die hard Democrats. Independents are waking up to the lunacy Obama has eschewed upon America. Everyone knows that at least 90% of republicans that actually vote won't vote for him. I think it's starting to look bleak for Team Obama. All this and the republicans aren't even close to nominating anyone yet.

Hey, Grump, I'm with you 100%. You WILL get what you paid for, just not what you expected. That's not me saying that, it's Barry's Medicare Trustees saying that. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them, not me.

Joe none of that was the issue, like I said I could make a lot of people happy and drop dead today and get nothing, the issue was the Ryan plan ending the program not fixing it. You can't smash a watch with a hammer and then claim to have fixed the watch.

BTW since we agree 100% and you also now want WHATEVER it is that is OWED you I guess you are done defending the Ryan plan. Welcome aboard you now agree with about 80% of the nation, and you will now probably have to vote against any republicans in your district.

On means testing then you are moving further away from the original intent that it was not intended to be a welfare program. In fact if you introduce means testing the argument can be made that you are destroying SS.

Oh, pish. Why is it that those who claim they have enough not to need Social Security are always opposed to the means test? When you pay premiums for health insurance, for example, do you always expect to get back what you paid in that isn't used? Of course, you don't. That's the nature of insurance. What you don't use goes back into the "reserve" to benefit everyone else who has to use it. That's called "spreading the risk." In exchange for taking the risk of paying for something you don't use, if you need it, then you know it's there. When you pay for Social Security, you are paying for insurance. No insurance company pays a claim that isn't made, and with the exception of the occasional premium rebate, they always keep your premium. If that's a valid way of doing "business," then why don't conservatives like to talk about applying it to Social Security as well? As for your argument that there is no current lock box, that's no excuse, and it's a pretty easy fix, it seems to me. Make a lock box. Problem is, Congress and the White House both lack the will to do it and they WANT to have the ability to raid the fund.

Those of you who laughed at Al Gore should be kicking yourselves right now. Especially when you remember what you bought for the rest of us who tried to tell you then. You OWE us, buddy.

Forrest Grump:

smash a watch with a hammer and then claim to have fixed the watch.

Confucius say: "Smashing watch with hammer is waste of time."

Gandalf say: "And he who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."

Republicans say: "What do I care about time? Just break the d@mn watch and give me all the pieces."

If a guy claims to be a watch repairman and the only tool he has is a hammer don't hire him.

Anna Molly - I've posted this before, but it is the type of subject that perhaps you skipped. In fact, this was originally developed in a long blog colloquy with Alan about the national deficit and debt. Seems like 'tis needful to reporst:

Medicaid and Social Security Trust Fund Repayment
Is a National Obligation

It is essential that the public understand that borrowing to pay interest payments or retire general revenue bonds is actually the impact of Medicare and Social Security on the national deficit and national debt. Sixty per cent of the national debt is owed to the Social Security and Medicare trust funds - the country is not paying for Social Security or Medicare benefits, the people who are eligible for the benefits paid for them ahead of time. It is a gross inaccuracy that distorts the debate to call these programs "entitlements" - beneficiaries paid up front.

It was this borrowing, from the late 1960's forward, that has truly been a problem. To default on the debt owed to the American people - taken from the Social Security and Medicare trust funds - by either "privatizing" these programs or essentially chopping them to small bits - is a massive betrayal of trust. This is a debt that the nation must face squarely and accept as an obligation of honor.

Most of the spending cuts thus far proposed avoid the 800-pound gorilla in the room by instead taking out on America's no. 1 debtor - the American people - and then blaming the victim for the problem. But the gorilla is that painful, tedious and necessary attention to spending cuts, program by program, over time, are only half the problem. The other half is revenues. There is absolutely no way to address cumulative deficits and mounting debt without increasing revenues.

Overall, a planned program to both increase revenues from targeted tax increases and boost Federal receipts by supporting further economic recovery and if necessary restoring new Deal type programs like the Works Progress Administration to sharply decrease unemployment is necessary. Judicious government cuts may have to be made alongside commitments that for another two to four years may continue some deficit spending - but more effort to address debt retirement through dedication of some added revenues must be a part of the package.

It IS absolutely clear that revenues must be increased in combination with judicious spending cuts. There are many avenues for increasing revenue worthy of consideration that do not threaten economic recovery or job creation. The nation has learned, the hard way, that Milton Friedman's "trickle down theory of economics" is utter bunkum.

Working people pay a direct tax to support Medicaid. For anyone who has been working since 1965, those substantial payments represent a sort of medical annuity The trust funds were somewhat forcibly required to be lent at interest, which should be applicable now to the value of that annuity.

The major reforms that will benefit Medicare have yet to occur - they consist of addressing health care costs. Mainly, they consist of dumping the Reagan-era reimbursement "reforms" that substantially underly the skyrocketing costs of medical services.

Hi, Bryan! Good to hear from you again, my friend!

How about this, B? You worry about what goes on over there in the ol' commonwealth, and I'll worry about what goes on here in New Jersey, because from what I've seen, Pennsylvania isn't the greatest place to live either.

As far as a nickname, I've always been partial to "That Super-Awesome Guy Over There!". It always gets the ladies.

Have a great day, B!

John A--Thanks for your feedback. This person is not my pastor, but I did check out his church's website before visiting (obviously, I have never gone there). The irony? His church's motto is "Love God, love others." When I listened to one of his sermons (available on the website), that's when I heard him say that health care is a privilege, not a right. I just had to respond to that, and I wrote him an email respectfully disagreeing with him, which started our whole email "conversation".

I totally feel that his using political points in his sermons is wrong and also divisive; furthermore, the ideas he proposes using are not even biblical, as you mentioned. He said that the author, Dr. Rogers, is a former Baptist pastor, as if this gives him the "OK" or authority to use the statements. You know what? I don't care about his "source". Man is fallible; God is not.

When I go to church, I don't want to hear negativity, judgement, intolerance, condemnation, and bigotry. I look for encouragement, forgiveness, compassion, tolerance, and acceptance. Unfortunately, the church is made of people who are imperfect. I don't know why I keep "talking" to this pastor, but I want him to know that he is turning away potential congregants with his narrow-minded views.

Anyway. I think I already know the answer, which is that, with the arrival of baby-boomers into the SS pool, expenditures will now begin to outstrip collections, eating up the current surplus and ultimately rendering the fund broke, at least on paper, by 2024, or even sooner.

Let me know if I have that wrong.

_________________________________

2024 is Medicare, not SS. Read the report.

Great post, John A. Thanks for pointing out that it was originally written in response to questions from Alan. Notice farther up the thread that Alan continues to ask the same questions even though he's already been answered. He's learned his lessons well from congressional Republicans, who insist on justification from the opposition while refusing to justify their own positions. They refuse to acknowledge that their opposition has even taken a position while constantly moving their own position farther to the Right.

In short, they acknowledge no other reality than an immediate, impending budgetary collapse that requires drastic curtailment of public services coupled with massive decrease in taxes for the wealthy and corporations...2 positions that don't even live in the same reality except within the Conservative mindset.

Anna Molly and Journey towards peace:

Life was good, and then ya just had to go and bring up the education thing. Anna Molly, obviously you've been on a campus, but Journey, you owe it to yourself to actually spend some time on a campus and in some classrooms. Believe it or not, it will give you insight into expenditures.

Administrators are paid far beyond their actual worth, but it is important to remember the number of mandates that come from the legislators from local to federal.

Look at news coverage of school boards. Virtually every article turns on the tough financial decisions the boards are making. Oh how terribly awful it is that they have to make these cuts. Oh how hard they work trying to squeeze everything out of those tax dollars. Oh how they've never been on a campus or in a classroom and have no clue how those dollars translate into performance.

It seems every parent or guardian knows a school board member, and if not, they can go directly to an administrator and tell them their tale of woe. Poor Johnny, abused and humiliated by his teacher although he is courteous and well-behaved. Students do not lie. Teachers do. Do not ever give the teacher a chance to tell his or her side of the story.

Of course, we must never lose sight of the fact that keeping students in school means revenue. So, we must overlook the incredibly disruptive behavior of many students. We must overlook the fact that students cannot read, write, or 'rith. In fact, we should hire people to read the tests to high school seniors if they can't read. NO DAMMIT, I'm not making that up.

We have to pretend that the graduation rate means something; that it's important. Gotta keep that head count up.

The most important thing we can do is put an end to compulsory school attendance. Wasting money on kids who don't want to be there at the expense of our best and brightest is a crime.

The numbers indicate that MORE people do NOT have children in school than those who DO have kids in school. They may not be my kids, but they're sure as hell my investment, and I'm tired of watching my investments mismanaged.

See Anna Molly and Journey towards peace, this is all your fault. I could and should be playing in my garden. But NOOOOOOOOOO, you had to bring up this school craziness. It's your fault. I'm just a victim.

Why is it that those who claim they have enough not to need Social Security are always opposed to the means test?

_________________________________________________

Because, since FDR signed it into law I've been promised that if I paid into the SS system, I'd be "entitled" to all my benefits.

I WANT EVERYTHING I’VE BEEN PROMISED!!!!

Besides, if the eligibility for benefits is means tested, it's just a welfare program. Are lefty liberal Dems going to tell those hardworking Americans that qualify under the means test that they are getting "welfare for the elderly"??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joe if you are right 2024 still sounds better than 2012, a dozen times better.

@ John A. ~ Thank you. I may have seen it before because I recognized the part about the moral obligation, and that struck me as being aligned exactly with my opinion. But I truly appreciate knowing that I am not the only one who sees that smashing the watch is NOT the only way out of this mess.

@ David Walker ~ I love gardens, too, so I feel your pain, but I don't feel any urge to apologize. You grace us with your presence. Your comments are spot-on, as always.

@ Joe ~ I really don't care what the year is. Call it what you want and laugh all you want, but you can't get around the MORAL truth that the solution is to fix it, not to break it more. And since I'm liberal, I'll cave in -- no means test for you, Joe. But, while you're at it, be sure to write your auto and homeowners' insurance company, too, and tell them to refund all the premium you paid even though you never filed a claim. See what they tell you. And then you'll know how it's done in the private insurance business, which according to your logic is nothing more than welfare for those who file claims, and a complete screw job for those who don't.

@ Forrest ~ Keep going. Sooner or later, Joe is bound to see the light. A grateful nation salutes your efforts to make Joe think, for a change.

@ Chris -- AKA "That Super Awesome Guy Over There." Now you're sounding just like Spanky.

Joe, Albany. Guess you forgot that Bush and the GOP signed into law an unfunded Rx medicare plan that shortened the financial life of medicare; it would have been nice if republicans actually paid for all the stuff they did, cause, you know, they're the fiscally responsible party.

Thanks Anna, you are a kind and reasonable soul. The programs need work, but under the Ryan plan old and sick people and their children will suffer even more. Funny how with all the talk of insolvency of medicare the Ryan plan carves out a trillion dollar tax cut. It's magical, you take a completely insolvent program and instantly make it solvent and find an extra trillion bucks - ta da. I'm not smart enough to know exactly how to fix it (and neither is Ryan), but I'm old enough, man enough, and American enough to know that there is nothing brave, bold, or innovative about turning your back on the old and sick and just conceding to this nonsense.

Sorry Jody, when the R's passed Part D, I was totally opposed to it. It was totally fiscally irresponsible, something I would expect of Dems. It was also a turning point in my beliefs about America being the greatest nation on Earth. Yeah, in the 20th century it was, but, just like Spain, France and England in the 17th-19th centuries, great nations get fat and happy and then fade into the past. The 21st century belongs to others, not America. And whining about it won't change it. America is destined for socialist mediocracy just like Spain, France and England. My retirement investment money is being shifted to far more promising growth opportunities outside the US and old Europe. However, when it comes to the New Deal promises made to me:

I WANT EVERYTHING I’VE BEEN PROMISED!!!!

Jody: "No comment" on means testing making the New Deal promises a "welfare for the elderly" program??

Hi, Anna!

It was either "That Super Awesome Guy Over There" or "Darth Awesome". I chose the more humble nickname.

Joe. But, while you're at it, be sure to write your auto and homeowners' insurance company, too, and tell them to refund all the premium you paid even though you never filed a claim

_________________________________

You have mistaken me for Grump. He was the one demanding a refund on his New Deal taxes, not me. Take a chill pill, it's a long weekend, hope you enjoy it as much as I plan to. Bye.

Me and a lot of people who paid in for 35 years who just get shut out under the Ryan plan.

Jody: "No comment" on means testing making the New Deal promises a "welfare for the elderly" program??

Jody??

Regardless, There is a lot of filet mignon and garlic-butter drenched Alaska Sockeye salmon waiting for my grill to do them justice. Lefty liberals believe in justice, don't they??

Chris in Cranberry, So Brian in Pa thinks New Jersey is an armpit? What an intellectual argument.

Maybe someone should tell Brian That N.J. high schools are ranked forth in the country. Pa are ranked twenty-fifth

Anna Molly #1.36 - Thanks for sharing your experience today. I am on the local school board and we had to "right-size" the administration today. One fellow was a long-time friend. It hurt, but it had to be done.

Have a wonderful Memorial Day celebration.

Maybe someone should tell Brian That N.J. high schools are ranked forth in the country.

_________________________________

Lisa s: Assuming that's true, I'm going to guess you graduated from whatever state's high schools rank dead last because "fourth" is the correct spelling of the number 4 ranked state, not "forth".

bethie in texas – Aside from the pastor's complaint about government legislating the poor into prosperity, I would ask: 1) what is he doing to help the poor?, and 2) where does he stand on government legislating morality?

But most important is whether his church is tax exempt. The IRS might be interested to look into that, because preaching politics from the pulpit is against IRS requirements for non-profit status. The TV Evangelicals or radio talk show con-artist Harold Camping are the worst, but IMO these preachers are the ones living on hand-outs via collection plates.

There are other posts I would respond to but I must prepare to leave town. As always, I will say that not only do we pay into Medicare via FICA tax with-holdings, but Medicare recipients pay significant premiums and sometimes out-of-pocket for expenses as well. Calling Medicare recipients "freeloaders" is crazy talk. Then to add insult to injury is Ryan's plan to cut Medicare so the richest 2% can be given more tax breaks.

And it's not so much the tax rate but rather tax evasion that is the problem. The richest 5% are responsible for 57% of tax evasion through write-offs, and the richest 1% through tax shelters. Aside from loopholes, there is the problem of corporate welfare, in which profits are privatized and debt is socialized -- the true "redistribution of wealth."

No one proposes to be unfair to the rich. We just want them, and corporations, to pay taxes owed, period.

Good to see you back LouisJ!

You were missed! ;o)

LouisJ:

Welcome back my friend. I missed ya.

Great post to start your comeback, thank you.

Speaking of missing good people, what's the skinny on IR?

Thanks, I'm in and out of the office so much these days, that there really is no time or reason to post. Thank God and Armed Forces for long weekends. Besides, you guys have been holding down the fort rather well.

I watched A Few Good Men this morning and was reminded that there are only a few good men and women that are willing to sacrifice themselves and that there are a few that cannot understand that as they put themselves before the cause.

Well said, Louis J. Good to see you back, we've missed you.

DBO, IR has been busy with various projects; he'll be back.

LouisJ

The critics of President Obama will make this next year about alternatives to his accomplishments.

Welcome back Loius

I really missed you.

You know the insane right wing don't think the President has done anything. LMBAO

It's the freakin weekend let's have some fun laughing at the"carnival barkers" at the Dew Drop Inn. The popcorn is gonna be just the right thing to munch on. After the hysterical laughs we'll discuss Brother West and Silly Sarah

UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE COLLASPE.

Louis J:

Well said. Our Military has always put this country first and above all else. That is what makes them so special. And for this undying loyalty and sacrifice they ask for nothing. In fact they are proud of what they do. They are not looking for medals or ribbons. They are looking just to keep their families and ours "FREE". No glory just an American Idea that we are all Americans at the end of the day. FREE and Equal.

Drive -by Still here just taking care of some personal problems thanks for asking. Let's see if we can't come up with a good tune or two to go with Reds Mesquite Chicken and Potato Salad for the DDI celebration this week end

Aw shucks, you have me blushing Bev.

The grill is prepped and ready. 70 degrees today but 80 tomorrow. Things are looking up.

Good to see you IR. Looking forward to the first annual Dew Drop Inn Memorial Day Picnic. In my parts I'm famous for bringing raspberry jello/pretzel salad, so I'll be providing that. I think the juke box has God Bless the USA on it---hope we kick things off with that.

I sure could go for The Boss's 'Born in the USA'...

IR - You & Miss Elly are in my thoughts! Let me know if there's anything you might need.

Ron Indiana

Telling the Truth:

Ron Indiana

When I was a kid I was taught the importance of telling the truth; it was a sign of character to tell the truth. One could sleep at night
knowing that what was said today was truthful and it was not necessary to fabricate a story to cover a lie.

Ron and when I was a kid I was not taught to HATE America like these right wing loons do. They listen to all the hate speech from FOX NOISE and people like Palin, Trump, and Gringrich etc. It's sad because it is destroying them.

Red Everything is going to be alright good lord willing and the creeks don't rise any more than they already have...... Now about that DDI celebration. All proceeds going to help out in Tuscalallosa and Joplin.

Bev:

Very well said. My grandmother told me that hatred is like taking poison, one drop at a time. There is no place for hatred in a healthy mind.

Ron Indiana

Bev:

Very well said. My grandmother told me that hatred is like taking poison, one drop at a time. There is no place for hatred in a healthy mind.

Your grandmother is a wise woman. You and I know those stressors do cause mental and physical diseases.

Louis J - What's to counter? Obama has made a mess out of each line item in your original post. Even if the republicans choose not to counter them, there's plenty of bark to pull off the tree, thereby exposing him for who he really is. For as much as you liberals love him, a lot of non-liberals see him for what he is and don't love him. You liberals live with blinders on, not willing to even consider taking a look around at the actual damages he has created.

Obama's inability to fix the economy and maintain and build upon the $14.3 Trillion national debt will be his swan's song. I know you don't think this will harm him because the finger pointing at past administrations has held him in check... but people are seeing his inaction on the largest problem this country faces. In a year and a half, nothing will change about his inaction because he will be doing his favorite job.. campaigning. The economy will spell Obama's doom.

Gee Brian,

I must have missed a civics lesson in school. It was always my understanding that the President does not make legislation, he only can sign or veto what congress proposes as a bill. Did I miss something there?

How would you like the President to reign in spending when he is NOT the one that controls the purse strings? Where is the inaction on the part of the President? The inaction you decry is a result of the GOP/TP members of both houses blocking, filibustering, and demagoguery. If your precious conservative members would get the hell out of the way, maybe we COULD begin a meaningful debate and accomplish something.

Disgusted - Tisk, tisk tisk. Wasn't it you liberals who decryed George Bush for having such a terrible economy at the end of his term? I guess you missed the fact that congress was all democrat controlled for his last 2 years. Hmmmm how the tides change now that the liberal messiah is in office. Liberals say - "Don't blame Obama, blame Bush!" "Blame the Republicans, it's all their fault!" Do you see the hypocracy in this? Or are you just another liberal with "Hate Republican" blinders on?

Oh, Disgusted, didn't the GOP block more spending? Didn't the GOP block more wasteful programs? Didn't the GOP try to stop the democrats from completely ruining things by placing liberal based policies in place? I guess you feel slighted because they took the only action they could to try to maintain some semblance of the United States in order.

I asked the original question. What has Obama done to control the National Debt? I can tell you. He requested and set in place $1.2 Trillion dollars as his first order of business after being sworn in. Stimulus only stimulated government job growth. He used the money to pay back his UNION thugs with their help getting him elected. What benefit did the other 300 million of us get? NADA! The economy sucks, inflation is inflating, job growth is stagnant and he galavants all over Europe on my dime. I pay my taxes which is a lot more than his selected cabinet does.

And where on earth did you get the idea that the "GOP blocked more spending" or "wasteful programs"? Talk about seeing what you expect to see and ignoring the facts...The Ryan Plan for instance, which got near unanimous Republican approval in the House, would INCREASE the deficit by over 10billion. Earmarks are continuing backed by REPUBLICANS...did you already forget about the continuation of the Bush tax credits? The only spending Republicans are against is spending the right wing base dislikes that makes virtually no impact on the budget (i.e. defunding Planned parenthood clinics that fund wellness programs and health screenings for millions of women in this country, because Planned Parenthood also offers safe, legal abortions--abortions NOT paid for by federal tax dollars...or there's that really BRAVE stand Republicans are taking right now to defund the FDA so we don't get any "interference" with tainted products) Boy, you sure swallowed that Republican propaganda hook, line and sinker...

Job1;

Morning to you my friend. Have a great Memorial Weekend and remember our Service members past and present for all the sacrifices and dedication to this country. It is because of them that we can all get together on this board and express our opinions with no fear.

Let us never forget that, ever. This is a debt we can never pay but we can offer our support and respect.

Thanks Job1 - hope you can make it to the First Annual Dew Drop Inn picnic!

We're going to have quite a spread! lol

I do not mean to be petty. But many years ago when I first arrived in Salt Lake, I toddled along to the local memorial day parade in a near by city. There were many more people marching then came to honor them. It got so bad that just a few years later they cancelled it. I guess there were not enough cameras around to make it worth while for our conservative politicians to show up.

Hi Navy and Feisty,

I wish you a great and safe Memorial Weekend. So true, that we continue to remember and always think God for our Service Members.

I want be at the First Annual Dew Drop Inn picnic. However, I will be there in sprit and I’ll raise a glass to you all.

.

bob-1805084

WOW - for once I agree with Booby!

BTW Navy,

About all the blood and sacrifices of our military, the debt we owe them .....

Wouldn't you say that most of those lost were in combat arms. And since 67% of those in combat arms were against the repeal of DADT ......

Why did you so vehemently disrespect their wishes, their opinions with your crusade for DADT repeal?

Some way to repay the debt we owe them, huh.

Hi Job1

I want be at the First Annual Dew Drop Inn picnic. However, I will be there in sprit and I’ll raise a glass to you all

I'll hoist one for you too. Happy Memorial Day Weekend

Hey, Feisty and the Dew Drop Inn gang: I'll be there too! Looking forward to the picnic. Going to bring my famous Pinto Beans, you will LOVE it and it is perfect for the mesquite chicken. Have also made some fresh Hard Rolls! Will be reflecting on the sacrifices made by our military this weekend, with gratitude to all who have served. Navy, my friend, thank you for your service! Meeting cherubs today, see you later at the Dew Drop Inn!

newdayDAWNING10

Hey, Feisty and the Dew Drop Inn gang: I'll be there too! Looking forward to the picnic. Going to bring my famous Pinto Beans, you will LOVE it and it is perfect for the mesquite chicken. Have also made some fresh Hard Rolls! Will be reflecting on the sacrifices made by our military this weekend, with gratitude to all who have served. Navy, my friend, thank you for your service! Meeting cherubs today, see you later at the Dew Drop Inn

newday

I love pinto beans. I am proud of the men in my family who served this country. My 92 year old dad fought in WWII. My brother and husband fought in Vietnam, my oldest son was in the first Gulf War, and my youngest son just re-enlisted.

Navy

Ditto what Newday has said. I appreciate your sacrifices and posts. I'm wishing you all the replenishing you need when you visit the cherubs.

Thanks Bev.

bob-1805084

.

#3.5 - Fri May 27, 2011 10:08 AM EDT

Best post by Bob-numbers EVER!

See Post #3.5 - poor booby is voting for himself again! LMAO!

It's a neat little trick the idiot from Albany taught him! ;o)

Feisty, you just voted for yourself 2:12 - idiot.

Come on now booby - you of ALL people should know by now that, I don't need to vote for myself...

Plenty of people out there who like what I have to say! ;o)

Fiesty, Can I bring over some garlic crabs?

If anyone would like to see an inspiring video view Sunset Beach, N.J. It perfect for Memorial Day

Jody:

Another great recap of the week. Yes rememberour Service People. They represent some of our most precious blood and I pray they all come home soon. I will be at Camp Johnson later today and I am sure I will cry when they present the new memorial for our fallen hero's. I will thank each an every one for their sacrifice.

My goodness Jody: Your review of the week is outstanding.

Great recap of the week, Jody---I always look forward to it. I'm not sure which I like better: SAD syndrome or the asterisk for voting.

Thanks to our hosts for another great week of politics and wishing everyone a happy and safe Memorial Day. Thanks to all who have served our nation and prayers for those who have made the ultimate sacrifice.

I hear the Dew Drop Inn is featuring Guinness in honor of the President's trip to his ancestral homeland as well as champagne in honor of the G-8. First round is on me!

Steeler. Now if only the Queen had taken a sip, it would have been a giant step for peace.

The Dew Drop Inn picnic will definitely be fun tonight; Guinness, perfect way to toast our President this week.

Not sure which I liked better either, SAD or the * box. Yesterday on the Palin bus tour thread, I commented that she needed media attention, needed to be visible to get more paid speaking engagements. Last night, Lawrence O'Donnell apparently had come to a similar conclusion. Wonder if the media is paying attention to Lawrence after Trump put egg all over its collective face.

Good morning, Jody. GREAT.

Jody, I like your emphasis on the real world ramifications of Republican policies at the state level.

To add my two cents:

This week our Teapublican governor vetoed a bill that had passed unanimously in the state legislature; the bill would have required insurance companies to pay healthcare providers in rural areas the same rate they pay to those associated with hospitals. Keep in mind, most of Maine is a "rural area." The governor deemed this "overregulation," because of course, the Teapublican ideology dictates it's not kosher to tell corporations what to do.

Folks, this is an example of the real-world application of the Paul Ryan, Michelle Bachmann ideology. If people vote for the Republicans, they have to understand what they will get. Examples like this show you the Tea Party rhetoric in practice.

Jody, Iowa

"And that's the way it is"......this week.

State legislatures are winding down their sessions for the year. Those with republican control have done just about all the damage they can to the middle class, poor, women's reproductive rights, unions and education. Fridays will not be the same without the wild and crazy stuff done and said but they'll be back. Do not dismay, the GOP presidential primary season is heating up and the GOPTP contortionist current crop will provide plenty of entertainment.

Ain't that the truth. Just look at the way FOX NOISE is feeding its trolls about revolution.

President Obama and his education secretary are facing a bipartisan revolt from almost 300 lawmakers and several lawsuits over a proposed crackdown on for-profit colleges, which train people for jobs ranging from plumbers to computer technicians.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/27/obama-crackdown-profit-colleges-faces-stiff-resistance/#ixzz1NZIqIAYc

Originally the headline read Obama Revolution in less than a few mintues when I clicked to show the proof they had changed it to read...

Obama Crackdown on For-Profit Colleges Faces Stiff Resistance

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/27/obama-crackdown-profit-colleges-faces-stiff-resistance/#ixzz1NZKhKmlS

Also the liars are saying President Clinton agreed with Paul Ryan.

They are big LIARS.

Amy -

Did I read that right - he vetoed a bill that had passed unanimously in the legislature? That seems to go beyond any real-world application of ideology. Maybe some of your rural healthcare providers should consider putting him on suicide watch, 'cause that sure sounds like political suicide to me.....

Jody, great recap! I'm always amazed at all that happens in one short week!

Amy ~ And somehow your governor will convince everyone that it's the liberals' fault that doctors don't get paid what they're worth, or that it's the fault of some "activist" judge someplace. It's nothing but a giant whipsaw. They take away your rights on one side, and then take away your ability to do anything about it on the other side, all while telling you that someone else is doing it to you.

Michigan is the prime example of this, but it's happening everywhere where republicans are in charge. One of these days, people will wake up and wonder how all of this stuff happened. I just hope it's not to late to undo all the damage.

Jody,

Two quick questions from that essay you posted...

1) What do Public Union workers need protection from? The government? If so, why? Anyone?

2) Do you own a Chrysler or GM union built car? I really don't know what lineup of cars C makes but I understand the Volt is flying out of showrooms but here on the east coast, I have yet to see one.

Joanne in PA, Yes, our Teapublican governor has vetoed a bill that had passed unanimouslyin the Republican controlled legislature, to require insurance companies to reimburse health care providers equally, instead of paying a better rate to hospital associated providers. LePage the government should not interfere in contracts between parties. (free market principles blah, blah, blah.)

www.pressherald.com/news/lepage-vetoes-one-size-fits-all-insurance-measure_2011-05-27.html

JoAnne:

Very wll written. You have a way of saying what is really important.

*wipes a tear*---thanks for a beautiful post, JoAnne, and a reminder of what is really important.

Steeler Fan:

Thank you for your post.

Correction: Joanne PA: I thank you for your post and reminding us all of the important things. Sorry for the mistype.

Joanne Thank you for putting this back up. It captures the spirit so well. I would only add to it this. While we are going about celebrating Memorial Day we should also take some time to Remember our friends and neighbors in Carolina, Tuscallosa, Joplin and Oklahoma that aren't going to have a very nice Celebration.

As usual, Joanne, you hit the nail on the head.

Amen to that, Indy. And a big hug to Miss Elly as well. She's very lucky to have you.

JoAnne, PA, beautifully said. What a wonderful reminder of what Memorial Day weekend is really about.

I will add a small story that happened in my Iowa town. Three years ago a tornado hit here on Friday of Memorial Day weekend, not of the magnitude that has devastated towns recently but it did destroy a lot of homes, and businesses as it traveled about 25 miles from south to north in the county. The public cemetery sits on a high bluff above the river, it is an old and beautiful cemetery. Our Veteran's section is there; my dad and step dad are buried there as well. After work that day, I made a trip to check on my dad's graves which are nearby. The tornado came up the bluff directly behind the Veteran's section destroying trees and toppling markers in its path yet not one flag, not one stone, not one flower was gone from the rows of plain white stones despite the fallen trees and havock behind and adjacent to it. It was remarkable.

Patrick Salt Lake City

Is Palin using the same bus the teabaggers used? It sure looks like the one they used for their cross country Tea Party Rallies. I wonder if the Koch brothers own it?

I think it is a carnival bus borrowed from the Alaskan circus .

Jody -

That story gave me goosebumps too - thanks for sharing it. I was going to post a link to a YouTube video showing the Changing of the Guard ceremony at Arlington, but when I went looking for one, I was really bothered by how many are posted there of the guards actually having to stop in the middle of their walk, turn to spectators who are laughing or carrying on obliviously and shout "It is requested that there be silence and respect shown at all times!" Thankfully, any time I've been there, it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop.

Navy - No apology necessary; it's we who should be thanking YOU. Give my thanks to everyone at Camp Johnson when you're there today as well.

Even though I would fall into the category of "moderate liberal", I have to say that the Patriot Act really makes me uncomfortable. If I were a truly cynical person, I might claim that we intentionally chose to kill Bin Laden close to the Patriot Act's vote so the administration could basically guarantee its passing. To be honest, I'm not that much of a conspiracy theorist. But the whole concept of the bill does rub me wrong.

At any point, the government can declare anything you do to be "suspiscious". The Patriot Act then allows them to abduct you without a time limit, refuse your right to a trial, and can basically make you disappear from the world. That's really creepy! Yes, I know that the Patriot Act has also led to our government preventing various acts of domestic terrorism. But as the news article points out, the government has never even given an official definition of what they consider the limits of the Patriot Act. Does that make anyone else uncomfortable?

As we slide into a very politically divided climate, people are drawing parallels to the atmosphere before the Civil War. Ex-German immigrants and some historians say that this atmosphere reminds them of how Germany was right before the rise of Hitler. Now with all of this in mind, let's look at the Patriot Act. I think of it like a sword. A sword can either be used as a tool of protection for the weak or as tool of death and destruction. In the end, who wields that sword is what truly matters. What happens if we elect someone truly unbalanced? (I know some people already argue that Obama fits that bill, but that's another topic.) It is very disturbing to contemplate just how much the Patriot Act can be abused if it is used by the wrong hands.

I hope that the Senate does follow through with its promise to hold public hearings about the Patriot Act. Even if officials end up lying on the stand, I'd like to listen to what they choose to say and which questions they try to dance around.

Wiser---I agree with you; have problems with the Patriot Act as well. I think the potential for abuse is great.

I also have many concerns about the Patriot Act. Concerns about the scope of it, concerns about the legality, concerns that those screaming about big government should find this acceptable, concerns about abuse.

It's unfortunate that decisions on the have to be made right now when there is so much else in debate.

I side with Wiser in hoping for a more thorough, rational debate on the topic away from the heat of the moment.

Anna Molly:

Wisconsin politics is very important as you folks are the trend setters for the 2012 election.

Thanks for the report from Wisconsin, Anna Molly. And now they are going after the police & firefighters?! Go figure.

Anna Molly:

Great job. WI are the ones that put this whole mess into the public eyes. Thank you.

More and more Americans are following the lead of Wisconsin and it has the GOP/TP running scared. They have nothing to offer this country that we want and more and more are seeing that for themselves.

President Obama will be elected in 2012 and if the GOP/TP does not get a miracle or some Democratic screw up, they may very well lose the House as well.

Thank you for the kind words, everyone.

And now they are going after the police & firefighters?! Go figure.

Not hard to figure at all, Steeler Fan, if you believe, as I do, that the real reason they were exempted from the collective bargaining bill in the first place was to drive a wedge right through the center of the labor vote and because Walker's delusions told him there would be violence arising from his proposals. In fact I think he actually hoped there would be violence and wanted a ready army loyal to him. He tried to use the State Troopers that way, too, but it didn't exactly work out as he had planned.

This is not at all unlike every other time that Republicans have thrown someone under the bus after they have done something that Republicans consider to be disloyal.

@Ron ~ I certainly hope so, Ron. And in a GOOD way.

@Navy ~ From your lips to God's ears, my friend. Great posts above, by the way. It happens almost every the time that, by the time I have a chance to leave you a comment, everything I want to say has already been said. I am very grateful for your service and sacrifice, and for what you do for us all here every day.

Everyone ... have a glorious holiday weekend.

Wisconsin was the petrie dish for a right-wing experiment in governing, and the results are in: the people did not like the results.

I have noticed even Tea Party supporters don't like being governed by Tea Party politicians. Healthcare costs in Maine are going up for the elderly and rural folks, thanks to recent "deregulation" efforts. Turns out the Free Market favors younger folks and city dwellers - the Democratic voters. Will ironies never cease?

Appreciate the Wisconsin update, Anna Molly. Paul Ryan had only to remember those angry voters at his town halls and realize he had lost any chance at running for the Senate next year. A lot can happen between now and next year but at this time, if democrats run a Hochul-like candidate in his district in 2012, Ryan will be unemployed.

Turns out the Free Market favors younger folks and city dwellers - the Democratic voters. Will ironies never cease?

Not that one, anyway. It's sometimes hard for me to be patient with those who refuse to see something that ought to be so obvious.

A lot can happen between now and next year but at this time, if democrats run a Hochul-like candidate in his district in 2012, Ryan will be unemployed.

I've heard rumors that there is exactly such a candidate out there, Jody, so keep your fingers crossed.

I'm happy to report that Gov. Rick Snyder has for the first time in years passed a budget! Even with all the noise he still has the support of the majority of Michiganians and seems to be gathering more! Of course the Public employees are not happy, they have to pay part of their benefits!

Even with all the noise he still has the support of the majority of Michiganians and seems to be gathering more!

Are you sure?

http://www.annarbor.com/news/poll-60-of-michigan-voters-rate-snyders-job-performance-poor-or-fair/

The poll by EPIC-MRA of Lansing showed 60 percent of voters ranked Snyder’s job performance as poor or “just fair,” with 35 percent saying “poor.” The poll of 600 voters was conducted April 27-May 3 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

http://liberalvaluesblog.com/2011/03/23/michigan-governor-rick-snyders-falls-dramatically-in-poll/

Think again. Snyder actually now has the worst numbers of this new trio of GOP Governors, with only 33% of voters approving of him to 50% who disapprove. And despite his overwhelming victory last fall voters now say that if they could do it over they’d pick Virg Bernero over Snyder by a 47-45 margin. Snyder’s current status is definitely emblematic of the adage that the higher you climb the farther you fall.

Source: http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2011/03/snyder-quickly-falls-out-of-favor.html

Tell me, do you really believe that people here will actually fall for your lies, or do you just like to hear yourself talk?

I see you STILL can't resist taking your petty jabs at public workers. Well, then, since you brought it up ....

How much of your health insurance or other benefits do YOU pay, Mr. Corporatist Apologist? Does your employer match your 401(k) contributions? Do your benefits cover all the costs associated with your disabled family members, or do you require public assistance with that? If they do, that's great, but not everyone can afford that kind of care without help, like Paul Ryan's grandmother, for example, who received government assistance when she was suffering from Alzheimer's. Do you think that Ryan's vouchers would have paid for her care in the private insurance market? Would they pay for your family members' care if something happened and you could no longer provide benefits for them?

Please.

And, by the way, for fostering children, as you have said you do, where does the money come from?

I pay for 20 % of my policy. I also pay for 100% of my wifes and sons insurance since they are disabled. MY wife had a genetic bone disease and my son is blind. I watched my investments and moved all of them to Canada (RBC) and have made 16 to 22% interest on my money. Gosh is that something special, no it isn't ! I have done what I should have done to cover my responsibilities! I know your going to say something abusive to me, but I have done due diligence to make sure my family is covered. I absolutely have my family in mind all the time. I know my 10 years in our military allowed me the discipline and gave me this ability to think this way.And as a emergency foster parent I do not accept the state money, I pay for all of it on my own. I give what I can...oh and to really piss you you off I also take homeless pets in my home on occasion. And as the last comment yes im sure that the public employees and the union members are the minority, we need to make things work. I live in Detroit, we have been through a very bad democratic administration with most all of them in federal prison, And more to come. You can look it up Kwame Kilpatrick!

I confess to being absolutely flabbergasted. You invite yourself onto this thread and tell several demonstrable lies (you're being personally "sure" public employees are in the minority hardly trumps two recent polls that say otherwise); you throw in a gratuitous insult about public employees, which was not an issue in my initial comment; and then you accuse ME of abusing you by asking a few questions about the things you have claimed in the past in light of the Ryan budget proposal. What are you afraid of, anyway? You haven't, of course, answered the question about whether if anything happened to you your family members would have to rely on public assistance in any way. I can't understand why they couldn't hook on to your employer's policy -- they certainly could do so in THIS state), but I'll accept your word for that. Even if you don't take state money for emergency fostering, it is still a program financed and administered with state money, no doubt. It certainly doesn't bother me in the slightest that you take in homeless pets in addition to everything else you do; rather, I would say BRAVO to that, but in consideration of all that you claim, I would also have to label you as superman. You are certainly one busy guy. It is a serious wonder to me that this silly little blog has any appeal to you at all.

This weekend, hug a veteran and say thank you. Peace.

Anna, I am a veteran of 10 years, 3 combat tours and a purple heart. I do a lot for my fellow vets!

Prayers going out for your little angel, No Joe.

Will be thinking of you and your family and prayers for your little baby girl.

I cannot imagine what you are going through. We have 2 little kiddos, youngest is 2. Our prayers go out to your baby. You are a very brave person for reaching out.

NJNB I was watching TV 2 weeks after my son was born and my then wife came in and said to me.....Somethings wrong with Brenden (unknown to her, mothers intuition) I walked in to find him purple and not breathing. Being that I was at the time a military service member with combat medical training and had taken a Infant CPR course the week before began work on him and restored breathing functions. The short story is that he stroked out as we got to the hospital and has lived his life blind. I spent the next 6 months in and out of IIC with him while he experienced full body convulsions then years of phenabarbatol drugged out to control the convulsions. I know what your going through, all you can do is be with your loved ones and pray it gets better. He is now in his late 20's and a certified MS engineer and is well adjusted (Im an Independent but he is as Republican as it gets). (he is pissed he cant drive) lol! To my fellow Vets many many salutes and thank you's for your service! I Have my Navy flag flying proudly!

Thoughts and prayers go with you, no joe. We had a little scare with my own daughter, and with my new grandniece, although not on this scale, but I do know a little bit about what a gut-wrenching experience this must be for you.

Godspeed to all.

no joe, no bo, nj

Please don't worry No Jo as long as you keep the faith, god will see you through this. as a father of 4, i can't imagine what your going through. my thoughts WILL BE WITH YOU!!!!! truly they will be.

Stay strong, Be cool

God bless your little one, No Jo. Take it one day at a time. Kids have amazing recuperative powers, as long as they have loving adults around them, which yours surely has. We are all pulling for you and yours.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and the little angel as well, my friend.

Although we are at different ends of the political spectrum my thoughts and prayers are with you and yours. Having volunteered here in NYC at the Ronald McDonald House, I can only begin to imagine your trials and tribulations. Little ones tend to be strong fighters.

Children are gold. I'm pulling foy your child.

I hope this turns out to be one of lifes speed bumps when you look back. Prayers for you and your family.

No Jo, Bless Her Little Heart.

NJ--Praying for comfort and strength for you and your family right now as well as a full recovery for your child. 20 months is so tiny, and yet she will probably not remember any of this trauma, which is a blessing. Take care.

Joe. I know the feeling, our family has been on pins and needles for the past week. My grandson (13) was riding his bike with a toothpick between his teeth, hit a bump and swallowed the pick. They have been unable to locate it, and it looks like exploratory surgery may be the next step.

Our family will add your daughter to our prayer list and ask God to direct the hands of the surgeons.

Praying for your little darling and your whole family NJ, I know you have other children as well, may God watch over all of you.

Thank you, all, from the bottom of my heart.

I will try to keep you all posted.

and, Patrick, your grandson is added to my prayer list, as well.

Good thoughts and prayers to you and your family.

auto pen is a machine that duplicates signatures so no one has to put any personal attention to anything!

"Auto Pen solves all of your signature problems" no more pesky constituentsto have to hear from or answer to... Been around for like 60 years, all of them use it.

I actually sent a letter to George W. Bush letting him know I objected to the war in Iraq, I got and Auto Pen signed photo of him and Laura, I was very proud of the personal touch then I gave it to my sanitation Engineer in my town!

Well Robert, I was not a Bush fan either.

I notice my post didn't get too many responses. I have a feeling that a lot of Obama supporters agree with me concerning the Patriot Act.

But, they don't want to admit it, for fear it would be a sign that their guy has feet of clay.

J.Merle. There are a few issues I disagree with President Obama on. But I want to direct my focus on the party that wants to destroy medicare. I will let you and your fellow teabaggers vent your spleen on the President.

the story is posted I will have to read why he did, was there a bunch of extra legislation attached?

Herman Cain 2012 " A PIZZA AND BUTTER ISSUE GUY "

Robert-777154

Herman Cain could definately beat Obama in a Presidential race. I am a die hard GOPer, so to say we would not support a Herman for Presidential bid is silly. Go Herman!!

Yea, straight to the nut house where he and Allen West belong along with the rest of them who hate America.

Allen West Suggests Anti-War Congressmen Should ‘Get Shot At A Few Times’

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/26/allen-west-congressmen-shot/

If that isn't sick and indicative of hatred I don't know what is?

You think with Rep. Gabrielle Giffords shooting because of nutjobs on the right he'd know better.

Bullets for Ballots are not feasible

One can hope that the deficit and debt hysteria subsides to reasoned and sensible discussion about legislation that will not stop or slow economic growth. The best way to reduce the deficit is to produce legislation that encourages job creation including government spending on infrastructure, investment in research and development, etc. Once the economy is on strong footing, that is the time to use a scalpel not a hatchet to reduce spending, eliminate tax loopholes and increase revenues.

Sorry I didn't get back you earlier, Jody. As a member of our local school board, I was busy all day; budget cuts (imagine that!). I agree with you 100%.

I have had a chance to look at the Republican "Job Plan" and they want more tax cuts and have still included the Ryan Plan.

Different name; same pig-in-a-poke.

For some reason, this Memorial Day holiday takes me back to Castana, IA. It was July 4th and time for a community picnic. That was 1959 but I still remember it as if happened yesterday.

Nice post, Steven. I totally agree with you about the vitriol. I tend to skip those posts and read the ones like yours, ones written with more thought, honesty, and civility.

"Debate the issues."--YES! How do we encourage people to do this? Though I am a left-leaning independent, I have had some awesome conversations with a dear friend who is much further to the right than I am. Sometimes we find common ground, but mostly we agree to disagree after having helped each other understand one another's view. She was teasing me about accepting the idea of global warming, so I asked her if she thought human activities had done anything at all to hurt the environment or exacerbate climate change (assuming it's happening naturally--are we doing anything to aggravate it?)? That question gave her pause. And I didn't need to make fun of her lack of scientific knowledge or call her any names.

Steven Rennie

Some of the nicest people I know vote Republican. It is often frustrating to me, as a moderate Democrat, to talk to them however, because it's like we are on different planets in our view of the world. Part of it must be where we get our news and how deeply we research the issues.

What's ironic is, many ideas that started out as Republican proposals, such as the health care mandate, and are adopted by the Democrats, are later disavowed by the Republicans and labeled as socialism. Did you know that Richard Nixon tried to bring universal healthcare to fruition? Did you know the requirement for people to have health insurance or pay a fine was a conservative proposal?

I agree the political rhetoric is outrageous, the name calling, smear campaigning and disinformation out there, horrendous. All you can do is focus on staying civil yourself. (Not always easy!)

Well Pat, I guess we liberal pinko commies will just have to stick together, I say we do just that and vote with our unamerican friends and neighbors and get rid of the trash that was voted in, in 2010. Now that the real Americans know the true agenda of the republicans, they might want to think on this a little longer before voting for teabaggers. Have a great Memorial day weekend, I am fortunate enough to look back on many generations of soldiers, from my family, starting with the Spanish American war. Thank You all for your service.

Libby-lefto pea-pickin' commie-pot here... I'm kinda following from afar today, because it seems like the self-RIGHTeous holier-than-thou's are mostly just peeing on the vine carpets to get attention since they are starting to understand that it's the only way they'll get any.

But here you offer a plan that I can sink my teeth into, pat. Just wanted to let you know that you can count on this vote, too.

Thank you vets of all affiliations. We owe it all to you!

Take the amount you get paid to challenge them and double it....

Unlike you - they actually say something of worth!

B_DUNE You mean like Feisty calling a mentally challenged baby a "sack of potato's" and a " Prop" and called this child TWIG instead of Trig. Name calling on a baby ,I'm glad you defend this kind of behavior it says a lot about you.
I wish she would move over to the OTHER side.