The business licensed should be pulled upon first violation.

It really is that simple - no business would risk going out of business.

Now , if the Democrats in the senate would allow the increased use of E Verify to allow businesses to check the validity of a social security, we can begin getting our illegal immigration under control. It was Nancy Pelosi that tried to cut the funding for the program. She may not be in power, but Harry Reid still is. Obama needs to step up to the plate and push for an increased use, even a mandatory use by all businesses hiring new employees. What hey do not need to do is waste time challenging states that are trying to do the job the federal government is not willing to do.

Spanky-

yes pull them upon first violation. but what do you do with those already in the country illegally. you see, that's the problem.

my solution, we absolve them. what's yours?

Ron, I'm sorry to say the right to work states and States Rights have become the new segregation.

If these republican T-baggers can eliminate a working wage, child labor laws, safety regulations, and collection bargaining of course they'll hire illegals.

These repugnant republican T-baggers are intent on destroying America.

I double posted since so many complain about my inability to communicate. Also, my typing skills are bad and so are my eyes. This is why I bold.

I hope by double posting the above message is clear.

As a progressive Democrat, I want to send a heartfelt THANK YOU to the US Supreme Court Republican-appointees--- you are the ONLY BRANCH OF OUR GOVERNMENT (consisting of 5 people) saving us from this MASSIVE LAWBREAKING SCHEME being perpetuated against AMERICAN CITIZENS and LEGAL IMMIGRANTS with the complicity of: (1) ILLEGAL FOREIGN NATIONALS, (2) the LAWBREKING DESPICABLE U.S. BUSINESS PROFITEERS, AND (3) OUR REPREHENSIBLE ELECTED OFFICIALS who REFUSE to protect the American people from UNSUSTAINBLE, CONTINUOUS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION LAWBREAKING!

My votes in the 2012 Election will be governed by whether the candidate is pro-continued-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION LAWBREAKING or in FAVOR OF THE RULE OF LAW!

Piou,I can answer that for Spanky:

Hey Piou,how about No democrats voteing For President Obamas budget yesterday? whatsup with that big fellow?

Spanky-It's soooooo simple huh??! From a business owner's point of you I am telling you that you only think that you could tell that someone is illegal. Many of these people have stolen identities that appear valid when checked. It's like a bar that lets a minor in if they present a valid ID. It's just the bars job to get the ID.

AngelicaS: Agreed. I'm also a progressive, pretty left-of-center on most issues, but come ON already. Either illegal immigration is - you know - ILLEGAL, or it's not. If it is, then it needs to be punished with the same severity as any other crime.

Pius: My solution is to make the situation such that they're better off at home than they are here.

StMiller: There needs to be a safe haven for employers who can document that they made a thorough, good-faith effort to verify that they were hiring citizens. But just saying "oh, we always check ID" isn't good enough.

Amen to that!

In some states / types of business, i.e. public works construction in NJ, E-Verify is mandatory. It catches illegals and also workers using fake SS # to beat garnishment of their paychecks.

DC Brian -- How 'bout a hard working LEGAL immigrant.

Thanks Pat

Bev: I more progressive than most, but for a multitude of reasons businesses should not hire illegal aliens. There are times when speaking the truth is more important than following party lines. That's something the conservatives haven't learned.

AngelicaS ~

My votes in the 2012 Election will be governed by whether the candidate is pro-continued-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION LAWBREAKING or in FAVOR OF THE RULE OF LAW!

I rather doubt that any of the candidates for 2012 will say openly that they are in favor of "illegal immigration lawbreaking", and most of them have no actual experience with these issues, so unless you're some kind of mindreader, how you expect to make a choice based on that criterion completely escapes me.

As a side note, keep in mind that the federal government, beginning with President Reagan after the passage of the 1986 immigration reform legislation, has always had the ability to enforce immigration laws against employers who hire illegal immigrants. Between then and now, none of the states, including Arizona, have displayed the interest in taking on this responsibility themselves that they are claiming to have now. So, you have to ask yourself how much this just represents lip service on the part of the states, and how much the Supreme Court conservatives are merely trying to co-opt federal government authority because there happens to be a democrat in the White House.

This decision, of course, will eventually lead to inconsistent enforcement by states, and will potentially incent businesses who currently depend on illegal immigration to move from one state to another in order to avoid stringent enforcement. This, in turn, puts us right back into the same soup, which is of course the original argument for federal pre-emption of immigration laws.

The real answer is not a patchwork of state laws. We need one scheme of laws, consistently enforced, to deal with immigration. This is not the right way.

Dave in NM:

You are right on with that safe harbor for employers. A well forged identity document is difficult to determine for the average HR person.

This is a great start. Now we need better border enforcement and tougher punishment for those who have invaded out country illegally.

Dave in MN - Agreed. I was just reacting to the "business license pulled on first offense" rhetoric above, as if it's all just that easy. I get so frustrated when people paint issues as complicated as this in over-simplified terms. That's the fault of news pundits both left and right that spend 15 mins on the radio acting like we can fix everything with A, B, C.

The Unit Toad - That's funny that you say that because Obama has spent more money on border security and added more agents than any president before him.

Beverly in Chicago is demonstrating how to lower the standards of a debate and still expect people to listen. It's the extreme left and extreme right that drive a wedge between the parties and end real debate. The right and left extreme's need to purged from both parties for the good of our common future.

Now this is an AZ immigration law I can get behind. Maybe they're not completely crazy.

Dave in NM:

There needs to be a safe haven for employers who can document that they made a thorough, good-faith effort to verify that they were hiring citizens. But just saying "oh, we always check ID" isn't good enough.

That exists today, under federal law, using the I-9 form that all employers are required to complete for all employees within 3 days of hire. The real problem is that the federal government has always discouraged employers from looking too closely at immigration documents. If we changed the policy and made the incentives run in favor of close inspection AND verification of social security numbers, and then enforced it, this legislation wouldn't be necessary.

Right now, many employers don't bother to verify SS##, and this legislation won't change that. Those employers, often those who employ seasonal workers, just wait for their next quarterly unemployment insurance reports to identify the problems, and then the problems disappear on their own, but only after the employer has already gotten the benefit of the undocumented labor.

People who want to game the system will always find ways to game the system. And this legislation won't change that, either.

In addition, the court pointed out, before a business can lose its license, it must intentionally and repeatedly hire illegal workers.

I don't think failing to recognize a fake ID would cost a business its license. The government would need to show the business intentionally (which would imply knowingly) and repeatedly (as a matter of implicit or explicit policy) hired illegals. The only problem for employers should be whether they can show that they performed due diligence to verify the person's identity. That said, hopefully Dave in NM is correct:

But just saying "oh, we always check ID" isn't good enough.

Somebody better let the Texas Legislature know about this ruling! Texas proposes to exempt nannies, housekeepers, lawn workers who are undocumented........any other worker.....gotta go!

Texas legislators don't even pretend to hide their bigotry!

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/immigration-wars-texas-georgia-oklahoma-arizona-style-laws/story?id=13050716

Easy Puis - they got here all by themselves for the jobs. Take away the jobs and they will leave. All by themselves.

In Arizona many have all ready left. All by themselves.

It really is pretty basic.

Mexico is a toilet - it needs them.

Agreed. Illegal aliens --- though a good source of labor --- don't pay taxes that are required of all other US citizens. They aren't positively contributing to the cities/states in which they live & work. I, honestly, don't mind that illegal aliens have jobs in the US...they just need to be taxed like everybody else.

I say this b/c their children are most-likely attending a local school --- funded by income taxes and subsidies. Just think of how many school systems would be better funded if taxes were properly collected.

Hiring illegals works out fairly well for employers. They can be paid cash, no taxes, no social security and no workman's comp. The roofing industry and the landscaping industry frequently operate this way.

What is really great, from the employer's position, is that if the clumsy Mexican gets injured on the job (falls off a roof or is badly burned by hot roofing tar) the employer just tells them to go back to Mexico for free health care and threatens to call la migra. Since the illegal worker doesn't want to sit in a holding cell for several days while injured, they pack up their stuff and head south for medical care.

It's also handy for the employer to hire illegals because he can charge the same price for the product or service and pocket his savings as profit.

This is just one step up from slavery, in my opinion.

If you are an employer and have come across an illegal who is a good worker, just help him get his work papers and treat him like a human being, sort of like we all expect to be treated.

For those of you who think this law is just horrible, just be aware of how these guys are treated by the businesses operating in your neighborhood. You still pay the same price for the product or service and you as a consumer see no savings anyway.

And what was the rational of the 3 votes against?

Rick in Kentucky asks:

"Hey Piou,how about No democrats voteing For President Obamas budget yesterday? whatsup with that big fellow?"

No biggie. The original budget framework proposal the Senate voted on was outdated.

Have a nice day

While I agree that business' who hire illegals should be prosecuted, I feel we are missing the point, we need Federal laws to address this. Living in Florida, in the building boom, you could go on any job site and find numerous illegals, as a construction Super, I had to talk to the subcontractors to interpet instructions to the worker's because they didn't speak any English. The subs worked for Lennar Homes and had contracts where the builder, Lennar, beat each of them down on price, with the promise of more jobs, to keep the costs down. So, they hired the cheapest labor possible to cut costs and still make a profit. The obligation to provide legal workers was on the sub, too many violations, Lennar moved to the next sub, till they got caught. Lennar was never on the hook. When the boom busted, the illegals left Florida, there are numerous empty "camps" where the illegals used to live. If all the illegals were kicked out, you would pay more for citrus, tomatoes and all vegetables that keep you in food during the winter. You'd pay more for homes, landscaping, cleaning work and many other things that regular people won't do for such low wages. It is complicated and until we address the big problem of illegals, companies will work to get the cheapest labor possible. Inspectors were rarely seen, and I suspect, paid off to keep the work going. Fines don't work, they pay them and keep doing business as usual. The consumer loses again, with higher prices. What to do?

You'd pay more for homes, landscaping, cleaning work and many other things that regular people won't do for such low wages.

And would unemployment for Americans be below 9%?

BTW Do you what teen unemployment is right now?

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952331,00.html

I am on board with this ruling. Businesses have gotten away with using undocumented workers for way too long. No job opportunities will lead to less undocumented immigration over time.

Beautiful, now Republicans and the Chamber of Commerce think the federal government should have sole enforcement of illegal immigration laws. But SCOTUS has moved further to the right of even them. Nothing to look at here. No hypocrisy here.

Well thought out and well put Grump in NM. I have seven young friends who are legal immigrants - from Bangladesh and one from The Gambia (small West African country that is a horrible dicatorship now).

All of them jumped through more hoops to get here that you can imagine. All of them will one day becomes American citizens and help enrich America's culture as well as be part of its evolution as a nation as well as being a strengthening factor. They are all devoting themselves to learning to speak English perfectly - I am to them what Professor Higgins was to Eliza Doolittle.

The moral of the story being: If you have to seriously think about coming to America because you want both to become a real, honest-to-God American, as opposed to coming here to milk the cash cow, you will take much more seriously the responsibilities attendant upon coming to and being in America.

I realize that the countries the illegal aliens are coming from are jobless and often political hell holes, but that does not give them the right to violate the laws of the land; of a land that countless Americans have fought and died to bring into being and maintain.

Our current administration though would like nothing more than to legalize all the illegals and reward them for having no respect for the country. America needs immigrants, but they need to be legal immigrants - not illegal aliens.

Thank you to the Supreme Court for having the sense to see right from wrong.

michelle,

Don't be silly. The prices do not go up. When the US began exporting manufacturing to China one of the great selling points was that prices of products would go down because of the cheaper labor.

How much do you pay for a good pair of running shoes made in China? I saw a $200 pair on the shelf just yesterday. Where are my savings? The consumer does not get the savings---the businessman gets to keep the profits.

What a great system.

Pius: My solution is to make the situation such that they're better off at home than they are here

Dave in NM__— Just keep electing those Democrats and your immigration control wish will be granted sooner than you think! With no Democratic solution on the table to fix our devouring budget crisis, the debt is going to turn us into a country that even the Mexicans will not want to come to. Put them back in power and they will spend us in oblivion!!!

WinkWink - I agree with the need for better border enforcement. It just should have started before 1492 because you're one of the ones (or descendant of one) that invaded our country illegally.

"Today's ruling is a green light for other states considering laws that punish employers for hiring illegal workers. Nine states have already done so."

This is a good start, if your state's elected officials do not pursue such a law, fire them.

It's about time someone in the Govt. stood up for American job seekers instead of Illegals.

I don't know why you all get your panties in a bunch about illegal immigrants.

I like them myself. They work hard, take lower wages and most pay income, sales and other taxes.

I also have a job that no illegal would be able to do. I don't have to worry about them taking my job. Nor would I ever do the job an illegal usually does.

I actually thank them for their hard work doing jobs most Americans turn their noses up to. Who's willing to bus tables for $8 an hour? Anyone? Anyone? And no, that job isn't worth the $15 an hour you want.

Perhaps you all should learn a good skill or trade, or get an education, then you wouldn't have such contempt for PEOPLE who risk their lives to earn enough to feed them families, and don't take anything from you.

All I hear on these comment sections is "mine, mine mine, gimme, gimme, gimme." and "take away from others because I don't have it, blah, blah, blah."

What a bunch of hateful fools. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

DC Brian- I see your point but I think the problem here is that most of these known illegals are paid under the table in cash, and are therefore exempt from paying taxes like the rest of us, but I can almost guarantee that most of these workers or their families are drawing upon some sort of taxpayer funded social programs. They are also probably paid minimum wage or less, which is exploiting a cheap labor source. It is true that many of these illegal workers are hard-working and the majority aren't here to sell drugs or rape or murder. But, the fact remains that they are here in the US illegally...its not like we don't have legal channels for immigration that would give them visas or SS cards so they can contribute their fair share of taxes just like the rest of us. We can't really afford to go bankrupt as a nation just for some good burritos...

Also, can someone answer why Kagen "sat this one out"? I thought her job as a SC Justice was to VOTE on cases presented. Just another abomination by Obama.

You guys really think that taking away the jobs from illegals will keep them from coming here?

You guys ever been hungry? You'll do whatever it takes to get some food; and boy, are illegals hungry.

Take away the honest jobs, and you'll drive them to truly rob from you, as many of you are claiming now. Someone who's hungry, and has a hungry family, will do anything to get a piece of meat. You're feelings are making things worse for yourself.

Wait for the 30 million illegals in the U.S. to go hungry without an honest way to get a meal. You're all in for a treat!

Federal law against illegal immigration says the states cannot penalize businesses that hire illegal workers "except through licensing."

This sentence from the article is indicative that we do need immigration reform...but not the kind the illegals are wanting. We need stricter enforcement and more punitive federal laws.

Pius Emeka Nebo

Spanky-

yes pull them upon first violation. but what do you do with those already in the country illegally. you see, that's the problem.

my solution, we absolve them. what's yours?

Deportation. Nothing else. No absolution for criminals. No more welfare, free healthcare, foodstamps, government housing. No more schooling for their children. No more jobs. Quit rewarding those that break the law of the country.

I hope by double posting the above message is clear.

Yeah Bev...we get it....you don't like republicans and will defend anything the democrats say no matter how bad or corrupt it is.

@ Juice, yes, they will get hungry, see the writing on the wall and LEAVE. That is the ultimate goal. American jobs for Americans. It is time that the billions Illegals are making, (and sending billions home to the Mother Country) stay in America in Americans hands. Additionally, billions of our tax money will be saved by not giving Illegals food stamps, low cost housing, free medical care, free schools, etc. It is such a win, win, I don't see why you don't get that. Illegals are making good money, not sub minimum wage like they used to make decades ago. The job scene has changed dramatically in the last decade especially. There are Americans who would take and NEED those jobs. Their old jobs are gone and they need something else.

Let alone those Illegals who are here dealing drugs and breaking the law in other ways. They can be the first to go.

Beverly in Chicago Comment collapsed by the community

Ron, I'm sorry to say the right to work states and States Rights have become the new segregation.

If these republican T-baggers can eliminate a working wage, child labor laws, safety regulations, and collection bargaining of course they'll hire illegals.

These repugnant republican T-baggers are intent on destroying America.

I double posted since so many complain about my inability to communicate. Also, my typing skills are bad and so are my eyes. This is why I bold.

I hope by double posting the above message is clear.

tacky-2804817, Yes I agree with you entirely, except for the date, I think we should revoke every body's green card to 300BC when the first Viking hit shore just North of where Boston is today. That way all that "Holier than thou" illegal alien Indian and Pilgrim bull hockey would cease.

@ Justdontgetit "Also, can someone answer why Kagen "sat this one out"? I thought her job as a SC Justice was to VOTE on cases presented. Just another abomination by Obama."

Kagan recused herself because she was Obama's solicitor and helped prepare the case brought before the SC. She was avoiding conflict of interest, for me that means she's ethical.

willowbrook:

Juice is correct. It is quite clear that most posters here have never run a small business - certainly not one that is labor-intensive. Americans simply will not work at low-paying jobs in agriculture, in service industries like motel/hotel maintenance, busing tables in restaurants, landscaping, and many more.

That is the fact. Putting Americans to work in those fields - no pun intended - would mean skyrocketing costs. For all the "outrage" about illegal immigration, it would pale in comparison to the screaming we would hear when prices start to escalate - enormously.

I don't think you will find any studies that can demonstrate that "....billions of our tax money will be saved by not giving illegals food stamps......." That is pure conjecture. Really, don't you wonder how anyone knows how many illegal aliens are in this country. If we really know, why aren't we picking them up.

As far as costs, my information is anecdotal, but first-hand. Most illegal immigrants who come here to work maintain a very low profile. They don't ask for food stamps. They don't ask for welfare. They just want work, and they work hard.

If you really want to see a pitiful sight, go to a jail and ask to see the holding areas for illegals awaiting deportation. They're mostly just men trying to make a living. Most will be sent back to Mexico, only to return as soon as they can.

The demand for cheap labor is not going to go away. Americans will not tolerate high, high prices. Neither will they show up to put in a grueling day's work at minimum wage, or even worse, a job where they are paid on a piecework basis.

That's the hard truth.

StMiller:

There is no excuse for an Employer to hire illegals. Use E-Verify it doesnt cost you anything, and its just the right thing to do for all Americans.

AngelicaS: I'm with you, that is where my vote will be also.

These are just the facts about taxes...

1. An American citizen (legal), married, and 2 kids who made $30,000 in 2010 owes no Federal Income tax.

Tax Refund: +$5,629 (I have the 2010 tax return as proof)

2. An illegal alien, married, 2 kids makes the same $30,000 still pays no Federal Income tax and get's NO refund.

However, they still pay the same:
Propery Taxes (through Rents)
Sales Taxes (up to 10%+)
Utility Taxes
Cell Phone Taxes
Fuel Taxes & Road Tolls

3. Local services (schools, emergency, roads, etc) are primarily paid through the above taxes, NOT Federal Income taxes.
By taking "undocumented workers" jobs away, preventing them from working, or kicking them out of the country, those taxes don't get paid.
That leads to a gap in revenues which would need to be filled by US citizens (by raising taxes).

Sure David, at the rate we are going where job loss is concerned, within a few years, Americans will be begging for those jobs. Some already are. Just depends where you live. I've spent the last 2 years turning away applicants as we have nothing for them, and do not have any reason to believe we will be hiring anyone for the foreseeable future. And no, we do not hire Illegals, there are plenty of Americans here that want to work here. The work is hard and dirty, and we still have plenty of applicants.

Stoops2Conquer:

Well put couldn't agree more!

RationalOne-674831

These are just the facts about taxes...

1. An American citizen (legal), married, and 2 kids who made $30,000 in 2010 owes no Federal Income tax.

Tax Refund: +$5,629 (I have the 2010 tax return as proof)

That's a slightly skewed figure. I gather what you are saying is that $5,629 were withheld from that citizens paycheck and was returned at the end of the year? Or could it have been more?

How much was taken out of his/her check for social security? Medicare? What about his/her employer matches that did go into the system? How about the state taxes? (which do pay for roads, schools, police, etc)

How much did these illegals contribute toward medicare and medicaid? social security? How much did the employer paying them cash match in taxes? If their children didn't speak english, who paid for the special education they needed? Who covered their medical bills?

@juice & @ David:

You are wrong and out of touch with the working class. Legal Americans will do these job and need these jobs. Juice apparently you are so far up the chain you cant see below you. (with your high education and skills, you better pray you never loss your job since you wouldn't do the work they do yourself, I've seen it happen to people like that, cant even pump your own gas. Its really sad to see someone who never had to do hard work try to make a living like the rest of us) I'm sure you dont want to lose your gardner or maid that is illegal and you want to keep them to do your dirty work for cheap while you stuff your pocket with more money.) Nobody here is saying we dont wont immigrants, just not illegal ones. Do you not think that legal immigrants are going to want jobs too. Or do you think when they become legal our government hands them a Bachelor Degree? Legal immigrants will still need low paying jobs until they climb the ladder just like us. And that is something no one minds, it the illegals that we are trying to stop. And our government is where we need to start. Its not totally the illegals fault, its is mostly our governments fault.

By taking "undocumented workers" jobs away, preventing them from working, or kicking them out of the country, those taxes don't get paid. That leads to a gap in revenues which would need to be filled by US citizens (by raising taxes).

Let's not be PC and use the appropriate terminology for an "undocumented worker" and that is illegal alien. Or perhaps a formerly unemployed US citizen will fill the job that was "stolen" by the illegal and will now become a productive contributing American

Joe - No, the tax "payers" get $5,629 in TAX CREDITS. Meaning, no, they did not pay ANYTHING in taxes AND get that money given to them as a "REFUND". One is Earned-Income Credit, Child-Tax Credit, and the other is Making-Work-Pay Credit.

State Income taxes are generally not owed on people who don't owe Federal Income taxes. (i.e. if you don't qualify to owe federal taxes you wouldn't owe state taxes either)

Citizens do pay $2,300 in FICA that supposedly gets returned back at Retirement (yeah, like we'll ever see our Social Security). Illegals don't pay into the system, and do not qualify for benefits...

Glenn - They are "undocumented workers" as they pay money into the system. They pay all the taxes I listed above. They SHOULD be entitled to get the benefits that they pay for...

Willowbrook and terry:

I have direct first-hand experience. Ran my own business for 20 years. You cannot find good help. Any number of my contemporaries will tell you the same. To my knowledge, I never hired an illegal, but I finally threw in the towel trying to find people who would work.

Willowbrook, you say you are overwhelmed by applicants. Two questions: What is the line of work? What is the starting wage?

The illegal alien problem is not the government's fault. Enforcement of immigration has never been greater than it is right now. The problem is the demand for labor. You may deny that all you wish, but they would not be here if there was no work for them.

David, You obviously don't live in the same area of the country as I do. I never said "overwhelmed" I said plenty. Overwhelmed implies we can't handle the applicants.

We do not advertise wages here when looking for new employees. Starting wage is determined by the experience of the employee, but I can tell you, no one is anywhere near minimum. As I am not allowed to give personal details of the company, I'm not going to answer that portion of your question. (I noticed you didn't give your specifics either.) But I will tell you we provide uniforms and locker room with shower for the employees use, and they use it daily.

The govt. is part of the problem with the Illegal issue. Why are they giving Illegals entitlements meant for Americans? Why are we providing their children with free schooling, low cost housing, food stamps, free health care? (Free since they are not paying taxes like we do.) Govt. help and employers who hire Illegals are the 2 biggest reasons they are here. If a person wants to immigrate here legally, I don't have a problem with that.

Juice is correct. It is quite clear that most posters here have never run a small business - certainly not one that is labor-intensive. Americans simply will not work at low-paying jobs in agriculture, in service industries like motel/hotel maintenance, busing tables in restaurants, landscaping, and many more.

I love how you liberals project your laziness, your "I wouldn't work for THAT pay" attitude onto the rest of us. I have friends with college degrees, who used to have good jobs, who have been out of work for a year or more and are now applying for minimum wage jobs. I myself have worked any number of minimum wage jobs in my school years, including an outdoor agricultural job during a Phoenix summer, and would again if I were hungry and needed to pay for rent and an electric bill. Get off your high horse and quit spewing BS about what hard-working Americans will and won't do.

P.S. The Bev in Chicago post was just as offensive (and incorrect) all the times it was reposted as the first time. Calling Tea Party person "T Baggers" and Republicans "Repugnant" is offensive, especially "TBagger" which denotes a sex act. They should all be collapsed, if not deleted. Let alone, your comments concerning what these folks will do to wages is absolutely ridiculous.

From Pete William's excellent synopsis--thanks, Pete---it sounds to me as if it was a question of federalism v. states' rights---not a matter of being for or against illegal immigration.

It seems like most of us are in agreement that businesses that violate the employment laws by hiring illegal aliens should be punished.

We all know that is ABSOLUTELY NOT why Obama is challenging it. You know it and I know it.

Hey - Here is one issue that left and right seem to agree on mostly. Why can't we get it done?

It's all about getting votes. If you make an illegal legal he can vote for you and so can all the family members. It is a great strategy. There are a lot of votes there.

I don't really see where the administration had a leg to stand on for this suit. The federal law that they are saying preempts arizonas, explictly allows for them to punish businesses through licences, thats exactly what they are doing.

Yeah, @!$%# the constitution.

everyone except Toasty that is, he nver agrees with anything or anybody.

True that. Toasty do you ever have any argument that does not fall so far to the left that you make the far righties look good?

Hear hear....this is a state's issue, especially for the states that are the ones dealing with the repercussions of illegal immigration, drug wars at the border, etc. We need to get the fed smaller and give the states more room to do what is best for them.

Another way you could look at it is that you guys attack me even when I agree with a teabagger's post. Even if it was somewhat sardonically...

I fully agree.

Let's see what happens in AZ to landscaping fees, restaurant prices, roofing, etc....

Sadly, I have to agree. While I fully support the decision by the AZ court because I've always felt that the employers of illegals shouldn't get off scot-free while the workers take the penalty, I know that not hiring illegals will drive up prices. Which political party will pay the price remains to be seen.

BTW I do NOT support illegal immigration, but I do favor an amnesty program for those already here.

Mark FL & Peter--- The so-called "Cheap labor" for which you advocate is NOT ACTUALLY CHEAP--- AU CONTRAIRE! Rather, the COST OF THE DE FACTO SOCIAL WELFARE GRANTED TO THE LAWBREAKING BUSINESSES --- A FINANCIAL BURDEN IMPOSED UPON UNWILLING US TAXPAYERS is ENORMOUS!!! For Example:

- The Miami Herald Editorial Board reported on February 14, 2010, and I quote: "Caring for undocumented residents cost Jackson $150 million last year, about as much as it received from the voter approved half-penny sales tax."

This means that virtually the ENTIRETY of the additional tax paid by South Floridians goes to pay for the healthcare of those who aren't even supposed to be in in the United States. Meanwhile Jackson is on the verge of collapse. This means that American citizens and LEGAL immgrants are in jeopardy of losing their fail-safe healthcare safety-net!!

Also, as posted on the LA County Mayor's website:

January 19, 2011 -- Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich released figures from the Department of Public Social Services showing that in November 2010, $53 million in welfare benefits ($22 million CalWORKs + $31 million in Food Stamps) were issued to parents who reside in the United States illegally and collect benefits for their native-born children in Los Angeles County -- representing an increase of nearly 3 million from November 2009. This amounts to approximately 22% of all CalWORKs and Food Stamp issuances in the County.

In 2009, CalWORKs and Food Stamp issuances to illegals totaled nearly $570 million. Based on the monthly figures in 2010, the total cost for the year will exceed $600 million.

“When you add this to $550 million for public safety and nearly $500 million for healthcare, the total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers exceeds $1.6 billion dollars a year – not including the hundreds of millions of dollars for education,” said Antonovich.

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SO--- YOU SEE THAT ILLEGAL FOREIGN NATIONAL LABOR IS NOT CHEAP! IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE--- IT'S JUST THAT THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS HAVE TO FOOT THE OVERWHELMING BILL--- NOT THE LAWBREAKERS THAT HIRE THEM! DISGUSTING!

Marklfl

It's all such a joke, because whom do you know will wash dishes, cut the lawn, deal with picking crops at the wages that allow these services at current prices? IF any of these jobs will be picked up by American's (dubious - restaurants can't get legal dishwashers or grill chefs - which is why they are all illegals) it will be at a cost that will have all these posters screaming about inflation and the rising cost of services.

Who did you see before the illegals started doing these jobs? They would be the ones who would do it.

Of course that will all be Obama's fault, and they will scream for a Republican candidate to "do" something about it. Even though it is their beloved free market that is at work

Of course they will. That is their modus operandi blame Obama for everything even it's the people dying in hurricanes and oil spills; right Spanky?

The relationship between wages and prices is one-way at best. When wages go up, employers will use it as an excuse to raise prices. When wages are cut, employers will use it as an excuse to raise profits.

I (citizen) washed dishes as a teenager. I had friends (citizens) that cut lawns and worked at fast food restaurants. Seasonal farm labor should have some special sources of employment such as temporary visas, if it doesn't already--which I would guess it does. The main problem with visas are how expensive and difficult they are to obtain. Fix that, and I think a lot of the illegal immigration issue would resolve itself.

As for whose fault it is, the problem has been around long enough that there's plenty of blame to spread around, so it is just silly to blame either side of the aisle alone.

"Can't get anyone else to do it" is a lie, as is the idea that the only jobs illegal workers hold in this country are the jobs legal workers won't do. Illegals are working in construction, in convenience stores and retail shops, all over the food and restaurant industry--you know, the types of jobs that used to be filled by legal citizens who didn't have a college and were just trying to earn a living. A lot of those jobs are gone now, filled by illegal workers because employers know they can pay them low wages and treat them however they want. It also means that in fields like the construction industry, companies hiring legal workers have a hard time competing, because companies hiring illegals can low-ball the bids.

YOU SEE THAT ILLEGAL FOREIGN NATIONAL LABOR IS NOT CHEAP! IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE--- IT'S JUST THAT THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS HAVE TO FOOT THE OVERWHELMING BILL--- NOT THE LAWBREAKERS THAT HIRE THEM

True, Angelica. The difference is that people do not think of these types of costs when paying taxes. It only hits them when they actually have to reach into their wallets and pay it directly at the cash register. Same thing with people who think ending oil subsidies will increase the price at the pump. You're already paying more than the pump price for a gallon of gas, but because the extra cost comes out of your income tax, instead of out of your wallet each time you fill up, most people can't or won't make the connection.

Sorry for the bold. Couldn't disable it in the editor.

Sorry Angelica, illegal labor IS cheap.... For the employers. We tax payers and consumers pick up the rest of the tab and employers get off without paying. That's why the chamber of commerce wanted this law defeated. That's why a similar law was recently defeated in Florida with the help of the farmers and the hospitality industry. You can scream "Liberal!" all you want to but truth be told it's industry. The same industry that's been sending jobs overseas for decades now. Taco Bell caved in on pressure to make living conditions better for the farm help by offering farmers a couple cents more a pound for tomatoes. The difference was supposed to be passed directly on to the pickers. Know what happened? The farmers REFUSED the money.

Do we need migrant workers? Maybe, but I'm not convinced. Are illegals Obama's fault? Don't make me laugh. Illegals are the result of business decisions to cut costs without regard to what effect it might have on the rest of the country.

Huh-- If you read my statement, it appears we are in agreement--- Cheap Labor is ONLY CHEAP FOR THE LAWBREAKING BUSINESSES, but the finanical burden is shifted from the businesses onto U.S. taxpayers-- AND THAT CERTAINLY IS NOT CHEAP. By the way, I am a liberal. There is no civil liberty to be, remain, hire, etc. ILLEGAL FOREIGN NATIONALS.

Maybe we could start some type of guest worker program, it's been done before and it would be "legal" I also believe I am fully capable of doing my own landscaping, although I am probably not up to bending over picking strawberries all day anymore..to old and back is sore. As far as roofers and such they should be paid a decent wage for skilled labor. I agree that illegals are deeply entrenched in all areas of labor workforce. I know it because I see it everyday.

Hey Peter, lets see what happens to the wages of legal citizens. Maybe now they can start getting paid what they are worth, rather than having to compete with illegal immigrants who will work for less.

If you want higher wages, learn a trade or skill, or get an education.

If all you can do is wash dishes, all you deserve is 8 bucks an hour. Illegals are smart enough to know that, why aren't you?

AgelicaS is absolutely right on target. The money that the American consumer thinks he/she is saving because of cheap, illegal labor is a false savings. The infrastructure to accomodate illegal immigrants costs many time over what is being saved. This not the country's only problem contributing to overspending, but it is a big chunk. If illegal immigrants cannot find work (and most are hard workers) most will leave. Many left Arizona when this law went into effect.

One counter argument is that there will be no one to do many of the low paying, back breaking jobs now done by illegal immigants. There has been proof where I live in Southern California that this is just not true. In the area I live over half the yard/landscape services hire only citizens or those here legally. The man who owns one of the largest yard service concerns here emigrated from Mexico 30 years ago and he refuses to hire anyone that is not here legally. He says it took him 10 years to come here legally, 20 years to build a very lucrative business and he has no sympathy or patience for those that cannot follow the rules

Yes there are hundreds , if not thousands of folks willing to do the jobs if the employer pays just the legal minimum wage. But not the below, below wages being paid illegal aliens. What they are paid will not rent a home, maintain a family or clothe and feed same. The illegals live bunched together like rats in a nest and send half their paycheck home. Why won't Americans do that? If you must ask that question, God help you, cause no one else can.

One hundred percent agree with you! Good post. Some more facts.

1. An American citizen (legal), married, and 2 kids who made $30,000 in 2010 owes no Federal Income tax.

Tax Refund: +$5,629 (I have the 2010 tax return as proof)

2. An illegal alien, married, 2 kids makes the same $30,000 still pays no Federal Income tax and get's NO refund.

However, they still pay the same:
Propery Taxes (through Rents)
Sales Taxes (up to 10%+)
Utility Taxes
Cell Phone Taxes
Fuel Taxes & Road Tolls

3. Local services (schools, emergency, roads, etc) are primarily paid through the above taxes, NOT Federal Income taxes.
By taking "undocumented workers" jobs away, preventing them from working, or kicking them out of the country, those taxes don't get paid.
That leads to a gap in revenue which would need to be filled by US citizens (by raising taxes).

one Obama and our federal government fought against. remember that in 2012.

No wonder Americans are leaving this country in droves!

[Citation needed]

McBarker--- Thanks for your commments! I believe a lot of LEGAL immigrants agree with enforcment of our immigration laws! Obviously, your interests are harmed by this immigration free-for-all as well!

McBarker - You don't sound like a Mexican immigrant (who this law targets). It takes MUCH longer to immigrate from Mexico/Central America (on average 14 years). I doubt you would be so fully supportive if you were still waiting for your legal status...

@RationalOne - No, I'm not a Hispanic immigrant, I'm a U.K. immigrant. I don't know if your claim of a 14 year wait is accurate, but I do know that as a U.S. taxpayer, I object to contributing to the theft of resources by those illegals who arrive here and start working the system.

Let me ask YOU a question. Since the average wait for entry from S. America into the U.S. is 14 years, do you think it's fair to those Mexican/Central Americans who are trying to enter this country legally that their visas should be pushed further back in line to accommodate those who enter illegally? Illegal entry does have consequences for other people trying to do the right thing by applying for legal residence, or maybe you didn't think about the hidden costs involved.

I'm a centrist democrat (not a right wing republican), and I believe that this law is the fairest solution to an ever growing problem, for both Americans and Hispanics.

David - I am with you and I don't even show up on unemployment statistics because I no longer recieve any. I will gladly hang drywall all day long but jobs are nearly non-existent except I did see 100% mexican framing and drywall crew at the new theater built down the street. I know of a few illegals working prevailing wage and union..how crazy is that?

The Chamber's position was that it's unreasonable and unfair to expect a business to be an enforcement agent of immigration policy, which by law is a function of the federal government. They further felt that penalties for making even unintentional errors in hiring were too severe, amounting to a business death penalty.

Ask any farmer or restaurant owner whether American's answer ads for these jobs, and they will tell you NO!

In this country we have a free market system, it requires employers to offer hire enough wages to attract workers. If you are only willing to offer minimum wage don't expect people to be breaking down your doors for a job.

No the problem isn't the companies... it's us.... we buy as low cost as we can... and the companies are forced to produce at that price... Great article in the Wall Street Journal about all the furniture business now moving from China to Vietnam... pay them $80 per month... of course we can work for that wage... just don't expect to live.

The unemployed might do these jobs, if companies would hire them. But all too often, that doesn't happen. Why? Money. If they hire a legal (documented) worker, they'd have to pay the legal minimum wage for that position. Why would they do that when there's a constant stream of illegal workers to be exploited employed for pennies on the dollar?

Mark they are not adding to my economy if I am sitting home while they get the job for lower pay, that is my truth.

Mark, Having been in construction management in both Texas and Florida, I can say with a straight face that a good three man "wetback" crew would run circles around five or more white boys. Not a pretty truth, but a real one. And the employers knew they were getting the most for their buck. So someone tell me if the white boys were lazy or that the Mexicans were hungrier?? I don't know.

And for the US Chamber of Commerce to have fought this must mean they want the cheap labor first and let the rest of us sort it out in the meantime.

Before all the righties jump on me, let me say that my company fullfilled all federal regulations in hiring. I had to do 15 pages of documents to validate the right to work for our employees.

alsopphia - you never ran across this white boy, we laugh how it takes six mexican workers to keep up with each two man crew, that's in Cali anyway maybe they don't grow them the same in Texas and Florida

Gary:

Right on! I live in Texas and I'm sick and tired of hearing how much harder the illegals work then we do. NOT TRUE! I work at a company that is 90% mexican, I dont know if they are illegals or not, we are not allowed to ask, its not politically correct and that is bull&#!*. But beleive me the 10% that is not hispanic work just as hard.

People keep saying legal American wont do these types of job, well to an extent that may be true. For many years we have been able to pick and choose what jobs we want and our children have been able to just ride our coat tails and not work at all. If you ask me, maybe the only good thing about the economy being in such bad shape is that now our children will have to do these jobs if they want a car or some extra money because mom and dad are now struggling. Teens need to do this kind of work, they are all to soft with all the computers and video games they play all day. Maybe if we get back to our days when a hard days work made you feel proud we can rebuild our Country!!! Besides that is what our Country was founded on, hard working AMERICANS!

Please profide a link to facts that support your claims concerning the US Chamber of Commerce. But, if federal inspectors are told to keep their mouths shut, then it's the federal government that is allowing this to go on.

Gary,

It's probably the people who are telling the US govt what to do and what not to do, haha. This world has become a plutarchy and the govts, whether democratic or not, do what the money dictates.

As a American Hispanic Veteran...(American first, mind you)..Enforcing employer laws is only part of the problem...It won't solve the anchor babies issues (see communist chinese couples having babies in Southern California). Wont solve the drug problem, wont solve the potential for terrorist issue, may reduce crimes commited by illegals, but not by much. Working illegals are too busy busting thier butt for the employers to exploit them. They don't have time to do crime...They need the money to send back to thier families.. AND MANY OTHER ISSUES... The additional answer is to seal the border...close it down...restrict movement...track illegals from entering this great country...monitoring employers is only part of the problem !!

Danny---

Thanks for speaking up! You're correct that there must be enforcement on ALL FRONTS (and E-Verify is but one component of enforcement)!

Danny,

I agree! We must do everything we can to stop this. We need several things to happen at the same time, this law was just a start. Unfortunately our government is too slow at enforcing the laws that are already on the books or passing the ones we need in every state. E-verify, border control, holding business' accountable and providing prove you are an American Citizen to police, schools, hospitals, job, etc. and not allow automatic citizenship to anchor babies needs to be done simultaneously!