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President Obama made his most explicit call for the Middle East peace process to be based on a Palestinian state and Israel's return to its pre-1967 boundaries.
While the speech at the State Department was billed as one on policy toward the Middle East and North Africa, places undergoing democratic upheaval and brutal crackdowns, the president made his most notable remarks on the long-standing gridlock between Israel and the Palestinians.
Obama said Israeli-Palestinian negotiations should also involve "mutually agreed swaps" of land, in which Israel retains areas in the West Bank where Jewish settlements have been established. This would ensure that "secure and recognized borders are established for both states," Obama said.
"What America and the international community can do is state frankly what everyone knows: a lasting peace will involve two states for two peoples," Obama said, while acknowledging that it is up to the Israelis and Palestinians themselves to make a lasting peace a reality.
Not much movement, however, is expected toward a solution in the near future. The president purposefully did not lay out any timeline or specific demands, but instead stuck to principles he has previously laid out. Israel has signaled it is cautious about any kind of peace agreement that could jeopardize its stability, particularly during a time when the Middle East is in upheaval. Additionally, the hard-line administration of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as well as a Palestinian Authority government that includes Hamas, complicates matters.
“[T]he recent announcement of an agreement between Fatah and Hamas raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel,” Obama said. “How can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist? And in the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question.”
Obama's words came just a day before he is set to meet with Netanyahu, who issued a statement shortly after the speech, saying that Israel would reject any return to "indefensible" borders, a suggestion that a return to pre-1967 borders would compromise Israel's security.
"That is why Prime Minister Netanyahu expects to hear a reaffirmation from President Obama of U.S. commitments made to Israel in 2004," the statement read, alluding to a letter then-President George W. Bush wrote to then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon saying that it would be "unrealistic" for Israel to abandon all its settlements given the "already existing major Israeli populations centers" in the West Bank.
President Obama's speech indicated not a shift in policy but in bluntness. He has previously stated the administration's goals of a return to the 1967 borders but has couched his statements in perhaps more diplomatic terms, like he did when announcing the resumption of Middle East peace talks in September 2010. He said then that his vision of peace was "a settlement, negotiated between the parties, that ends the occupation which began in 1967 and results in the emergence of an independent, democratic and viable Palestinian state, living side by side in peace and security with a Jewish state of Israel and its other neighbors."
The speech was an instant lightning rod for both Republican members of congress and presidential candidates.
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), a key Republican on the Armed Services and Appropriations committees, said President Obama made a mistake in calling for a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.
“Anytime our President singles out an issue, it makes it more difficult in my view to have a comprehensive negotiation, so i quite frankly think it was a mistake," he told reporters.
And Sen. Mark Kirk (R-IL) condemned the President for calling so specifically for negotiations to hinge on a return to pre-1967 borders, saying the statement was “a substantial shift towards the Palestinian side” because “words matter in Middle Eastern policy.”
Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN), who is also contemplating a presidential run, tweeted, “Obama's call for 1967 borders will cause chaos, division & more aggression in Middle East & put Israel at further risk.”
Likely presidential candidate Mitt Romney released a statement shortly after the speech saying the president “has thrown Israel under the bus, and that he “violated a first principle of American foreign policy, which is to stand firm by our friends.”
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Hey FR...ever heard the term day late and a dollar short? We've already discussed his traitorist action today
Tick tock... tick tock... ;o)
I posted this in another thread, but it is appropriate here as well. Here goes:
It looks like the President has made the GOPers and the Israelis mad.
That is the point.
The President knows that the Israelis will never give up East Jerusalem. But like any good negotiator, if you want to make the deal, you have to move the customer out of neutral (when the customer says things like 'oh, I dunno' or ' I have to think about it'). To get the customer out of neutral, you either make them mad and then you address their concerns to get them to sign the contract or you make them happy and they sign the contract.
In any respect, you have some movement in your negotiations, and that is what this is all about.
If the President makes the Israelis mad, then they will counter. If the President makes the Palestinans mad, then they will counter. This is all a way to get the peace talks started again. He can then walk that back and take a differing position in the process.
If nothing else, this President is NOT stupid. Everything he does is deliberate, and there is a political calculation attached to every action. Why do you think the President has offered $2 BILLION to Egypt? What is the end game there?
Egypt and Israel have a peace deal that would be jeopardized if the wrong sort gets into power in Egypt. In return for that money - and the guarantees that go with it - the President is asking Israel to start talking. They are refusing to (you can credit Bibi Netanyahu for that) and this is a means to get some pressure under Prime Minister Netanyahu from HIS opposition to start talking.
True American-2366567
Hey FR...ever heard the term day late and a dollar short? We've already discussed his traitorist action today
Hey un- American. it's easy if you don't like it STFU.
"Traitorous action?" Are you serious?
Bev,
I have now seen you and Fieisty tell someone to STFU in the past couple of weeks. I think that may be bad since it came from you two. Can you tell me what that means? I'm new.
Not traitorous, rather patriotic and statesmanlike, as Pietro's excellent analysis lays out. But to republicans and Israelis, provocative, at best. Suppose he had announced his intention to kill Osama bin Laden in advance, and then let America watch and contribute their opinions while the sausage was made. It obviously wouldn't have worked, but this is a little harder to keep quiet. Anyway, that's what we're about to see.
FR: The president purposefully did not lay out any timeline or specific demands,
Anna Molly, I don't think we are "about to see" anything really, with Israel and Palestine. Just more rhetoric from Obama that has no real meaning.
I really think he should be spending more time worrying about the power and influence that Iran seems to be gaining. For all our sakes, I hope he is.
Is the President of the United States required to swear some oath of allegiance to Israel?
Good for the president, it's high time these two countries became 2 separate countries and stop acting like one country undergoing civil war. We get it, they don't like each other... now let's help them separate themselves - and finally stop blowing sh!t up.
Also, I get it that Israelis are God's chosen people, but why did the Palestinians have to lose their land because God favors Israelis? And if we American's like them soo much, why not just clear out South Carolina, Alabama, Missippi and put the Israelis there? The people in the aforementioned starts are just a drain on the US economy anyways.... they pay $1 into the tax system and receive $2 back... that would help balance some of the budget problems....I kid, I kid...I love southern food (that counts as a contribution right?)
Well Da Noid, if several countries denied the USA's right to exist and vowed to blow us off the map the first chance they got, I sure hope our Allies would stand with us. Pretty sure that's why they are called "Allies".
If your "kid brother" was always down at the playground picking fights with the other kids and always came back to you as the "big brother" looking for you to help him out when the other kids fight back wouldn't you get tired of that routine after a while?
White Collar Auto
Bev,
I have now seen you and Fieisty tell someone to STFU in the past couple of weeks. I think that may be bad since it came from you two. Can you tell me what that means? I'm new.
Welcome aboard. Google it I can't say what it means.
Well, count Noid as another anti- Semite.
It is ISRAEL that is always being attacked. ISRAEL that suffers through suicide bombers on buses, in cafes, in shopping streets. ISRAEL that suffers the missile strikes, and parents and children, including INFANTS, being slaughtered in their beds.
But, please, do not control yourself. Please continue the racist postings. It is nice, for a change, to see some honesty from the left.
Israel should tell Obama they will roll their borders back to 1967 if the US will roll back the United States borders to 1958.
Then the incompetent one can go back to California and walk west till his hat floats since Hawaii wasn't a state in 1958.
Actually..... that is a pretty good compromise for Israel. They give up land but get rid of the "world leader" guy that has no clue about the middle east.
White Collar Auto,
STFU
Means
Shut the f&&k Up,
I am just explaining to you what this means, Newsvine doesn't alway catch this, It is a violation of their codes
DO NOT SAY THIS TO ANYONE
I could get suspended for this (I hope Not), but you asked so I am just telling you the meaning, I don't say this to people either.
A lot of acroynms are used, that I am not too sure about so I try and figure them out.
How do you know I'm not Jewish?
Give it a rest you race baiting old bat!
Just because someone disagrees with Israel's position -THAT doesn't make the anti-Semite!
I realize life in ConservatiVille is gloomy these days - but you HAVE NO right and EVEN less credibilty on this board to be calling anyone anti-Semitic!
Go plug yourself in, before that bile backs up and creates another mess around here!
Are you that stupid?
President Obama would still be President Obama as Hawaii was a territory of the United States of America in 1958...dumbass!
How do I know this? John McCain is eligible to be President of the United States even though he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.
Your attack was clumsy at best. Try again!
Hmmm, Israel and the Middle East, always a tricky subject. Seems to me you have 2 sides that just don't wanna get along. The rest of the world may want peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, but if they don't want it, it won't happen. Let's face, neither side are Boy Scouts.
I know its the thing for us lefties to be down on Israel and raise up the Palestinians, but I've known to many righties who flat out hate Jews to embrace this easy way out. No, the problem is much deeper than typical political ideology. Until the parties involved genuinely want to live together in peace, it don't matter what we think.
Too bad the arabs just wants to wipe Israel off the planet.
Too bad Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, and too bad Hamas is in effect the Palestinians' government.
There really can be no "solution" given these realities.
Oh Feisty you little troglodyte, you are boring, boring, boring. Why don't you go back into your cave, and take the Ameba, Bev the self-proclaimed racist from Chicago with you?
aD Noid,
Or could it be that both of McCain's parents were US citizens and he was born in a US Navy hospital on a US base to a US military family?
BTW - Was Panama a US territory like Hawaii prior to 1959? What are there, 14 US territories? How many electoral votes does Guam have? Who did the people in Puerto Rico support the last election? If don't have the right to vote - do you have the right to be president?
Anyway, just messing with you. Yea, I understand incorporation ......and should have used 1898 or whatever instead of 1958......
Feisty is truly amazing. Someone so destitute for a quality comment, so obsessed and angry at those that do have quality comments.
NJNB walks down the sidewalk and ill tempered chihuahua drops her Snasauges and angrly, but harmlessly barks her head off....... every time ........ day after day ....... week after week ...... month after month .......
NJNB, literally doesn't even bother to look....the disgusting little purse crapper is not worthy of even a glance.
The little Chihuahua never gets it.
It is ISRAEL that is always being attacked. ISRAEL that suffers through suicide bombers on buses, in cafes, in shopping streets. ISRAEL that suffers the missile strikes, and parents and children, including INFANTS, being slaughtered in their beds.
But, please, do not control yourself. Please continue the racist
there was a time when Israel did the same things. Could it be karma?
True un-American,
I and many others see you as a traitor to our nation.
Bev @1.12....If you can't spell out the complete words, then maybe you shouldn't be abbreviating it either. People here know to expect street trash, gutter talk from you. I don't know why FR lets you do it but they do. It must be rough not to be able to express yourself with intelligent thought and have to rely on cursing instead.
Bev is just semi-literate. That doesn't exclude her from this vine. We are understanding towards someone mentally challenged and uneducated. Let her vent and make some wind. She is from the "windy city" after all.
As for Obama's boneheaded statement about Israel's borders. It is obvious that he is someone with no military or diplomatic experience whatsoever trying to make a fool of himself. Best to just ignore someone of his caliber till he leaves office in 2012.
The earliest he leaves office, short of assassination, is 2013, dumbass.
So how do you negotiate with terrorists? I though the US's policy was not to do so.
And yet Israel has been directed by Obama to do just that.
This should be very interesting.
Palestine is a State. It's not the PLO or yore. It's far time for compromise and the Israelis need to know that. I for one am sick of our men and women in uniform dying abroad due to Israeli arrogance and their damn settlements. They have become a large "entitlement" state that if Paul Ryan had his act together would go after their Billions in free funding.
Spanky.... I lost a whole lotta respect for you with that statement.... why would you use a blanket statement that palestinians are terrorists... that's an ignorant thing to say. It's akin to me calling all white people racist, or calling all asians nerds, or calling all blacks thugs.... i.e. while some very vocal (or colorful) people in those populations conform to the predefined stereotypes.. the majority do not; and it is very ignorant for you to say such.
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." - Gerald Seymour, Harry's Game
If you're looking for proof, I'd suggest you review the history of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan...we loved them when they fought the Soviet Union but when they became the Taliban/al Qaeda...well, not so much.
Tunde,
Hamas is the political party that governs Gaza. Hamas won the majority of parlimentary seats.
The European Union, Canada, Japan, United States all classify Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Hamas is an acronym meaning Islamic Resistance Movement. They are an off-shoot of the Muslim Brotherhood (seems most terrorists are).
Spanky's quote ........... "So how do you negotiate with terrorists?" was accurate. The Palestinian people have no say ........ the terrorists are in charge.
You should be more careful who you call ignorant, huh?
bob-1805084,
I still stand by what I said...everything's fair game in politics... but calling a group of people terrorist leaves no room for negotiation when it's actually the only way forward.
What we need to do is discredit Hamas (... sorta like we've done to UBL) and make the Palestinian government stronger w/o Hamas
But I still stand by not using blanket statements to slander a group of people.... it's dam!n near prejudice (it's actually the definition of prejudice).
You negotiate with the leaders. The leaders are terrorists. You are not stupid Tunde, but what part of that do you refuse to understand?
Discredit Hamas? Like call them terrorists - OK, Spanky and everyone with a clue has.
Doesn't matter. They are not some old man sitting on the floor watching old videos himself. OBL became irrelevent as a threat. Hamas runs things and they don't care about the people any more than they care about what you think.
Hamas has executed over 350 attacks on Israel. Suicide bombings, mortar attacks, rocket attacks, small arms attacks ...... OBL ever conduct 350 attacks on us ......and you guys are sensitive about calling Hamas terrorists. Do you think we would put up with what Obama is ask ing Israel to put up with?
Anyway ..... call them them whatever you want ..... and stick your head wherever you want.
Directed by Obama?? Spanky?? Israel doesn't take orders from the likes of Obama.
Romney says President Obama threw Israel under the bus.
A question. Do any of these Einstein's have a solution? I thought not. Especially Romney.
I'm getting really tired of Israel. We have been supporting them for years and years and years.
President Obama's speech was excellent. And I will listen to him before I listen to these people who have no ideas, no anything, except their usual disapproval of anything the President has to say.
At least he's attempting to fix this problem. No one else is. And I mean no one.
Too true. :|
Pat, Boston, MA
Romney says President Obama threw Israel under the bus.
A question. Do any of these Einstein's have a solution? I thought not. Especially Romney.
I'm getting really tired of Israel. We have been supporting them for years and years and years.
Too many years; Israel is playing Us; plus it supports Apartheid in South Africa. Israel has nukes and is playing the victim.
Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians contrary to the rules of international law and waged war against a civilian population, in particular children. —Anti-apartheid campaigner and former South African president Nelson Mandela, 2001
When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank and connects the 200-or so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road … this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa. — former US president Jimmy Carter, 2006
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/47300
President Obama's speech was excellent. And I will listen to him before I listen to these people who have no ideas, no anything, except their usual disapproval of anything the President has to say.
At least he's attempting to fix this problem. No one else is. And I mean no one.
Bev, I have to thank you for revealing for the entire world the anti-Semitism of the left.
By the way, a racist of any stripe is, still, a racist.
Pat in Boston (go figure) - What suggestions do you want from Romney? This isn't his problem to deal with... not as a candidate. Besides, anything he might say on the issue would be completely skewered by you and the other liberals.
You're tired of Israel... so-oo what? What has Israel ever done to you as an individual? Would you side with Hamas and destroy them? I'm just sayin... if you are tired of them then you wouldn't mind seeing them gone. How Hitleresque of you.
So you feel the speech by the president was excellent... didn't you just love the part when he told Israel to give back the land they acquired in the 67 war? Wasn't that the bee's knees? Personally, Obama's arrogance makes me want to hurl. He does not have the right to say that to any country.
Courtesy of J.Lewison/DailyKos
Anti-Defamation League Praised President Obama's Speech:
"We welcome President Obama's compelling speech on the priorities for American policy in the Middle East. We applaud his strong outlining of the principles which motivate that policy, including supporting the universal rights of free speech, equality and religious freedom, opposing the use of force and political repression, and promoting political and economic reforms. These are a reflection of American values and promote American interests.
We further commend his strong affirmation of the importance of the deep and unshakeable U.S.-Israel relationship, and his clear articulation of the moral and strategic connections between America and Israel. We support the President's vision of a negotiated Israeli-Palestinian settlement with strong security provisions for Israel, and a non-militarized Palestinian state."
Jed Lewison:
As ADL's statement underscores, the idea that Barack Obama is pursuing some sort of anti-Israel agenda is completely absurd. But then again, so is the field of Republican candidates for 2012.
And the Trojans thought a big horse statue was a gift from the gods.
Didn't Clinton and Bush both, also, want the 1967 borders? Hasn't this been the US position for well over a decade?
This is what Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat were talking about at Camp David, and later, at Taba. This is what George W. Bush was talking about with Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert.
Of course the wingnuts will throw a fit, but they would have done that no matter what Obama said. If Obama had said he'd be fine with anything BUT the 1967 borders the dittohead tools would be complaining about how the only thing that makes sense is the 1967 borders. It's kind of like how the Republican Senators swore up and down that they would NEVER filibuster a judicial appointment and now we find it was just more right wing lies.
nisl: The GOP have no answers, because they don't think about important issues. All they think about is how to throw our President under the bus.
They have zero credibility on world issues.
Zero.
Pat - I think you give the GOP too much credibility.
But they do have ONE answer: Regardless of the question the answer will always be the opposite of what Obama's answer is.
If Obama were cruel he would state, "I'm NOT going to march off that cliff and fall to my death." Within minutes of him saying it most of the GOP would be falling, lemming like, to their deaths.
nisl ~ Spot on. Maybe he could try it. LoL
Well, maybe it's time to try a new approach. What would you do?
AM- what should have been done before now- tell the so-called Palestinians to go pound sand.
They have a state- it's called Jordan.
*BUZZ*...sorry, try again.
Is there anyone here in America the Republicans don't throw under the bus? They surely don't support the working class, they surely don't support our seniors. They don't care who does or doesn't have health coverage. They have zero desire for immigration reform. Education doesn't interest them. They're big into voter suppression. They aren't going to support the President in anything.
So why would they want to see a solution that favors both Israel and Palestine? It ain't gonna happen. They're too much the status quo party. Rich white men. These are the only ones they look out for.
And then we have Romney. Remember the very end of the movie Caine Mutiny when Jose Ferrer threw the drink in Fred MacMurray's face for throwing Queeg (Humphrey Bogart) under the bus? That's who Romney reminds me of. The Fred MacMurray character.
Not to be trusted.
Pietro and Anna. Great posts.
Here's hoping that because we're not favoring Israel, that doesn't mean we or the President is anti-semitic. That kind of manipulation or simple minded talking point will not work. We all know the history of the Jews and it's been horrible. So hasn't the history of the Palestinians.
We'd like to see a solution in our lifetime for all concerned.
Pat in Boston (go figure) says:
Is there anyone here in America the Republicans don't throw under the bus? They surely don't support the working class, they surely don't support our seniors. They don't care who does or doesn't have health coverage. They have zero desire for immigration reform. Education doesn't interest them. They're big into voter suppression. They aren't going to support the President in anything.
Since when don't the republicans support the working class? OHHH.. You mean because they feel tax reduction for everyone is fair while the democrats/liberals want to steal more money from the rich because they earned or have more.
The republicans want to trounce on our seniors.... it's more than evident through the democrat claims (that have never been true) the republicans want to stop medicare.
Immigration reform? You do mean illegal immigration reform don't you? Tell me Pat Boston (go figure) do the democrats want to do anything about illegal immigration? They had 4 years to do it and didn't.
I guess it's worthless to argue with you. Your mind is set like a steel trap no matter what the truth is. I guess there's nothing like a lib to compare reality to a make believe movie.
So leave it to Obama to take a peaceful country (Israel), one that is flourishing economically and it's citizens are happy to live there (except for attacks by Islam groups) and denounce their borders. Borders they legitimately have after an attempt by terrorist groups to attack them where Israel won that war. Israel didn't start it in 67 but they sure did finish it.
Now the president who is clearly a muslim supporter decides that it's Israel that must pay the price. Who the HE double hockeysticks does Obama think he is? How come Obama didn't go after Hamas for constantly lobbing mortars into Israel? How come he didn't tell THEM to stop? Because I believe Obama doesn't care that they stop... the only thing he cares about is putting Israel in it's place.
We are undergoing change alright... an unbelievable change of course that will destroy this country.
Brian,
The West Bank and Gaza are occupied by Israeli military forces...Israel refers to them as "Disputed Territories". Legitimate borders? No.
Israel, a peaceful country?? That is a laugh and a half, they who have led wars of aggression into Egypt and Lebanon, they who are FORCIBLY occupying over half of the Palestinian lands, killing them and treating them like trash and then whining that "They Hit Me BACK First!". Israel, the nation that started themselves with terrorism (Look up the Sturmm Gang). The most heavily and most modern army of all of them in the area and they whine about the fact that the people that they are oppressing have gotten upset at them and hit them Back?? You folks on the right have to go back and do a little bit of reading in the real history books.
Yes, Israel has been attacked by the nations surrounding it, but the fact is this: They are NOT going to be defeated by any of the militaries in the area, they have the best military set up around as well as Nukes, which they stole from us to begin with, this is also proven. They also now have their Iron Dome missile defense, so them crying that if they give the land that belongs to the Palestinians back that they will be in mortal danger. BS, I call plain and simple BS. Israel has been working a Land Grab for decades, taking the best of the Palestinian's Lands for their own settlements, settlements, which I will remind you, have led their own attacks on the Palestinian Peoples.
If there is ANY Nation in the area that is more of a Terrorist Nation than Israel I have never heard of it. Yes, The Palestinians have an absolute RIGHT to be upset, and to try to get their own land back.
No, I do NOT advocate terrorism, in any form, neither from the Palestinians, NOR from the Israelis, but right now the Israelis have been killing Palestinians at the rate of 100 for every Israeli killed, and mostly women, children and non-combatants at that.
President Obama is Absolutely correct: If Israel REALLY wants peace, then THEY have to get out of the Palestinian's land, leave their land-grab settlements and get back to the 1967 borders. You cannot occupy another people's land by force of arms and call yourself a peaceful nation that is looking for peace. All they are looking for is to have ALL of the West Bank and Gaza as their own and the Palestinians as their own, private slaves.
The right-wing can cry and whine all they want, but they have done NOTHING real to address the situation other than take Israeli money.
It is ignorant statements like Obama's that cause wars. He may have a lot of blood on his incompetent hands before this is over.
There you have it in a nutshell Pat!
Their minds are made up, even before he speaks... *shakes head*
Feisty, the GOP is useless when it comes to these matters. And now Israel is accusing President Obama of being another Arafat.
How many freakin' hands does President Obama have to hold?!
Pat - you have to remember - and consider - that Israel is being ruled by the GOP equivalent right now. Prime Minister Netanyahu is a hard-liner and he is not apt to negotiate anything.
There is definite acrimony between the Prime Minister and the President, no doubt. However, I think that this is a pretty clever ploy by President Obama.
We will have to see where it goes in the coming months, but I can assure you that the President DEFINITELY has the Israeli's attention right now.
LoL Pat -- my exact reaction during the speech was, "there goes the Jewish vote."
Pietro, Columbus, Ohio..
The President DEFINITELY has the Israeli's attention right now.
..............................................
As well as the attention of the people who want to defend our staunch ally and only democracy in the area. Not only did he lose the Jewish vote Anna Molly, he lost a whole lot of democrats and independents who find his demands on a sovereign state unreasonable. Did anyone tell the US not to attack Afghanistan after 911? Does the US negotiate with terrorists? Giving the lands back puts them in the same position they were in before the 1968 and 1973 wars.
Ira - I disagree.
The President has NOT lost the Jewish vote. He may have lost the support of SOME independents that have not been paying attention to what is going on in Israel and the Middle East and are willing to believe the spin that is going to culminate from this action, but I suspect that when everything is laid out, that loss will be minimal.
Instead of listening to the rhetoric, WATCH and see what moves are being made. Prime Minister Netanyahu's existence has just become a little more complicated.
I believe Aipac has a meeting on Saturday.I hope the media covers the event I for one would like to see the speeches and hear their views.
Mitt Romney...
Does that mean you stand with Bin Laden (who was our friend during Reagan's administration)?
Does that mean you stand with Saddam Hussein, who was our friend after the Iran crisis? (Again during Reagan's administration)
Does that mean you stand with Noriega? Another former ally that the US had to take out.
Perhaps Romney forgets the British were once our enemy.
From a wing nut.
Israel has fought 14 wars since 1948 to keep it's State free. In 1967 and 1973 they were attacked by no less than 7 Arab countries who's only goal was to wipe Israel off the map. Why? There's no oil in Israel, was a desert. You draw your own conclusions. They took the Golan Heights from Syria at a cost in blood they can never replace. Since they now control it, Syria can no longer mount an attack through this highly strategic position as Israel now hold the high ground. They took Jerusalem and declared it an open city, open to all religions. It is their biblical home as well as other Semitic religions.
Since it's inception in 1948 and for everyday thereafter, not one Arab country has offered to take in the "refugees" and give them aid. Israel was instrumental in creating the Arab Authority under Arafat. Israel offered to help create and recognize a separate Palestinian state. All offers were refused.
Obama threw Israel under the bus, plain and simple.
Right where they belong. The question is whether we start the bus rolling while they are still under there. USS LIBERTY incident should never be hidden or forgotten.
This whole situation, which is about nothing more than religion, race, and ethnicity, three federally protected categories in this country, is completely deplorable. Sooner or later, both sides will have to understand that these are not differences worth dying for, or conquering for, or there will never be peace.
But I agree that Israel will see this as Obama betraying them. And that's exactly the kind of thinking we cannot afford.
Because history proves that it never works.
I'm not anti-Israeli at all. I understand the self-defense notion behind Golan. I don't, however, understand the continued building in the West Bank. What happens when the populaiton reaches a point that more land is needed- either for crop production or for housing? I just don't see why the Palestinans should sit back and enjoy it (sorry, Bobby Knight) when their land is given to foreigners by foreigners.
Im with you, Ira. I have never understood why anyone should believe that Israel should be the instrument of its own destruction.
Since when does the president of one country tell another peaceful country what its borders should be?
By the way, on the "Lie" thread, I apologized for defending bev as being a victim of naivety. She responded on another thread, and made it clear she knew what she was posting. The veil is off the anti-Semitism, it seems.
Liberals may find that brand of bigotry trendy and fun. I find it revolting.
Joe, Ira:
I respect both of your opinions, but the impression I get from your posts is that you're both against the idea of a compromise on the borders of Israel and a potential future Palestinian state. Is that the case? If so, why is that, exactly? And if not, what's the reasoning behind your objection to the President's statements?
ed3891
As only 2 Arab states have stated that Israel has a right to exist and exist peacefully, Israeli borders are NOT safe. They are constantly being rocketed from outside their borders. Israeli families have been massacred in their homes. Terrorists have blown themselves up at bus stops and restaurants and everywhere else the could find groups of people. You remember our reaction to 911...thankfully it happened to us once. It's a way of life there. BTW, Israel offered to stop all settlements and in fact evicted Israeli settlers and tore the settlements down. They were attacked from Gaza as a thank you.
Unless the Arab League and its members recognize that Israel has a right to exist there will never be peace in the region.
"Since when does the president of one country tell another peaceful country what its borders should be?"
When it's 1948, and there are more than just one countries doing it?
Actually, Ira, NO, the President did not.
Not 24 hours ago, the President offered $2 BILLION to Egypt.
Now why would he do that?
The reason is because Egypt and Israel have a peace treaty that would be in jeopardy if the wrong sort gets into power. This money - and the guarantees that go with it - are actually PROTECTING Israel from the upheval in the Middle East.
What he is trying to do is to 'move' Prime Minister Netanyahu to start talking again, especially since the Prime Minister's party is like our own beloved GOP. The only way to get the talks started again is to 'push' the Israelis.
This 'push' will give enough impetus to the opposition parties to put pressure on the Prime Minister.
This is a POLITICAL move that seems to be working.
You have to remember who you are dealing with here. The Israeli Prime Minister thinks that he can outwit and outsmart the President. Well, he just may be able to do that, but the opening negoatiation gambit has the President winning the first round. You can bet that when the President meets the Israeli Prime minister tomorrow, there will be LOTS to talk about, unlike the last time the two met, where the Israeli Prime Minister touted his 'hard-line' stance and thought that the President would just 'accept' it.
This is going to be interesting to watch.
Try to watch what is going on and NOT fall for the rhetoric - which will be hot and heavy from ALL sides - and see what is REALLY going on. There is NO WAY that the President alienates the Jewish vote, especially before an election year.
Nice spin, Pietro.
No sale.
Tell me- is Obama going to cede Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico to Mexico- you know, as a sign of good faith? We have a bit of a problem with the drug cartels there- maybe thatmwill appease them?
If not, should he throw in California?
Pietro, Columbus, Ohio
...and is there a peace treaty with Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait to name a few. Until there is there will never be peace.
Oh, and Pietro? About that "not alienating the 'Jewish vote'- [there is a racist statement if I ever read one]
If therenis such a thing- he already did.
Ira:
I agree that the lack of recognition of Israel's right to exist on behalf of the majority of Arab states is nonsense and a threat to Israel's stability. Denying Israel has this right seems to me as ludicrous as Israeli hardliners thinking they can go forward without accepting that, sooner or later, a viable Palestinian state has to come into existence - a state that would, first and foremost, need to accept the Israeli right and enter into a peace accord with them.
Hamas' involvement in the present Palestinian government complicates things in my view as much as Netanyahu's stewardship over Jerusalem. Pietro's post at #7.8 is generally well-reasoned concerning why the President has made the move he did - appeasing Israel in the past has not yielded the result we (or anyone with a good head on their shoulders, I'd wager) want, so if attempting this apparent reversal of previous policy ultimately does lead us back to the negotiation table, excellent. If not, well, at least the effort was made, but then the question of how badly our relationship with Israel is damaged comes into play and that could, of course, be disastrous in the long-term.
It's a gamble and a calculated risk - one that carries tremendous possible consequences for Palestinians and Israelis alike. I hope it's worth it and wait with baited breath to see how this plays out.
Ira, that is precisely my point. The region is becoming unstable, and Egypt's peace deal is VERY important to maintaining stability.
So how has the President thrown Israel under the bus when he is actually HELPING the stability in the region?
The other part is all political. You know that Prime Minister Netanyahu is a hard-liner and these two leaders are now getting into a p!ssing match to see who is smarter.
Let's call this what it is.
You can be sure that the opposition parties in the Knesset are salivating at the chance to weaken the Prime minister right now, and a weakened Prime Minister would help the peace talks.
You CANNOT just fall for the rhetoric, Ira. Look at the COMPLETE picture.
First, since the rebellion, what makes you think Egypt will abide by any previous agreements. There is no government there...military rule.
Secondly, if he can't guarantee that the entire Arab League, including Syria, will recognize Israel, this is one of the worst foreign policy decisions I've seen made since the invasion of Iraq. You have just alienated our only ally in the region anf the only reason there is stability now. No one will dare attack Israel cause they know they will get their butts kicked.
Ira, Israel is not our only ally in the region. For those not paying attention, President Obama just so happened to meet with the leader of another ally we have in the region on Tuesday.
One NUKE in Jerusalem and tel aviv can pack it in.
**Sigh**
Ira - you have to WATCH what is going on there in the Middle East. Yes, Mubarak is gone, but the military in Egypt has stated that they will CONTINUE to HONOUR the Peace agreement between the two countries. The Israelis were quite worried after Mubarak gave up power about this very issue. The action of the President - the $2 BILLION - puts the full faith and credit of the United States, the only superpower left in the world, as a 'guarantee' that agreement stays in place. If there is any thought of not honouring that agreement, then there is NO MONEY. Right now, the new 'rulers' of Egypt desperately need money to keep their Democracy going, so they WILL listen to President Obama.
As far as Syria is concerned, why do you think that the President has slapped sanctions on the President of Syria? The short answer is to make sure that Syria concentrates on its OWN problems and with the money frozen, it will be difficult to buy arms to go against Israel.
The Arab League made a deal with President Obama to get the muscle of the US behind the move to get the UN to throw out Gaddafi in Lybia. The Arab League is getting what they want, and they now OWE the President one, which he will cash that favour in to get terrorism to stop against us. This puts pressure on Yemen and Quatar to go after the terrorist groups in those countries.
Ira, you have to open your eyes and LOOK at what is going on. President Obama is doing more for Israel than their own Prime Minister!!
THAT is why the President has lost no Jewish votes. He actually has gained some.
Pietro, Columbus, Ohio..
I am wondering what part of the planet you live in..
Obama lost the Jewish vote and it will cost him the election..predominantly registered dems who are outraged. Just check some other sites. Outrage.
Syria is a terrorist state who sponsors terrorists. Yeah...they're gonna get right behind the we recognize Israels right to exist movement.
Also glad you already know that the Egypt will honor past agreements with Israel. If the Muslim Brotherhood wins the election what happens...
Agree to disagree..I do think you are being naive.
When Obama helps Israel take out the IRANIAN Nuclear Weapons program in October of 2012 he will win re-election in a LANDSLIDE in November.
It looks like Peitro is wildly optimistic, and certainly naive.
The entire region wants to obliterate Israel. It's just a reality.
It's the problem with the American Left - it is all about excusing and explaining away that which scares them. This is cold, hard brutality. They are soft and yielding.
I stand by what I posted.
This is a means to get the Israeli Prime Minister to the peace talks table, plain and simple. Sine he will not go willingly, the President is applying pressure on him by motivating his opponents in the Knesset.
After this speech, Prime Minister Netanyahu WILL want to talk, and he WILL be willing to negotiate.
All the rest of this stuff that is flying around is a distraction to what is REALLY going on.
Pietro,
You are, in my estimation, so incorrect in you analysis of the situation. In 1967 Israel was attacked, and it took six whole days to end this sneak-attack war. Now the ragheads consistently fireAn rockets into this country, and you want to have them give it back?
Why should they, when their enemy has stated over and over, they won't be happy until Israel is eliminated from the face of the earth.
And why is that Pietro?
Safecracker - what in the SAM HILL are you talking about?
My post is on what the President has done. My post lays out the scenario that the President is doing more to HELP Israel than their own elected Prime Minister. The President has put the US' money where his mouth is by offering the money to Egypt to continue building their Democracy.
My post also shows the rationale behind the speech, and how the intransigent Print Minister Netanyahu will be more apt to return to the peace talks now that there is pressure from Hamas as well as the more moderate in the Knesset.
So what does all of what I have posted have to do with what YOU have posted?
I'll help you out - NOTHING.
When you want to discuss the FACTS of the situation, then you know where I am. All of the rest of this 'stuff' is counterproductive and silly. All it serves to do is stir up people's emotions for no good reason. It is not like you or I can change ANY of it, so why bother in the first place?
Obama offers 2 Billion to Egypt...
We borrow 2 billion from China and give it to Egypt...
boy that's fiscal responsibility for ya!!!
How's that cut the deficit in half in my first four years working out???
how two faced do you have to get before someone(media) calls you out!!!
Pathetic !!
How's that goose stepping coming along Feisty?
Seems that some are ignoring obamas past rhetorical history. A history that the authors above have not...
But then it is an election year for obama. As an incumbant why are all his plans based on campaign rhetoric and very little substance. Many are still waiting to see his proposed numbers on his debt/deficit reduction plan 2.0.
Ira,
I never had a clue that the liberal left was so anti-sementic. These are the people who ignore history if it doesn't fit in with their agenda. These are the same people who would deny the holocaust ever took place.
The United States has many differences with its neighbors Mexico and Canada but together we have one thing Israel doesn't; respect for the other guy. I strongly support President Obama in his quest for peace in the Middle East and hope that the Israelis are able to overcome their differences with their neighbors and become an active participant in the global community.
Obama is a rank amateur and should keep his novice nose out of Israel's business.
Question: What do Israelis and Palestinians have in common?
Answer: For thousands of years nobody's wanted either of them.
The position that Israel should return to its 1967 borders is not a new one. In November 1967, UN Security Council Resolution 242 was passed calling for Israel to return territory captured in The Six Day War. In August 1980, after Israel passed the "Jerusalem Law" which unified the city, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 478 which declared that law a violation of international law. The United States, as a permanent member of the Security Council, could have killed both resolutions with its veto but that never happened.
If there is to ever be a "Two-State Solution", it must include East Jerusalem. The Palestinians will accept nothing less.
PS - For bonus points, please discuss the following: Are Israeli settlements in The West Bank a violation of The Geneva Conventions?
Noid- kindly remember who the presidents were in 1967 and 1980- here is a clue: both were Democrats.
Why are we hanging on to states that were part of Mexico? Is there not trouble on the border? In the interest of "peace", should not those states be ceded back? I mean, they were captured in war, were they not? And people displaced as a result?
Before you question the time elapsed since then, I would remind you that most of the Palestinians alive today do not even remember when there was a "Palestinian" state.
Seems to me that the thinly veiled anti-Semitism of the left is founded on a few talking points, with a double standard thrown in for good measure.
When you are ready to talk about ceding "Mexican territory" back to the Mexicans, we can have a discussion.
Big difference...
California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, etc...these are territories that are part of the United States as negotiated under the terms of the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the 1854 Gadsden Purchase.
The West Bank and Gaza are territories that are under Israeli military occupation.
Seems like you got him on this argument no joe. Good job.
I responded to "no joe" who has not responded to me. Who has whom?
UN Resolution 242 is RACIST, as is anyone who deems it legitimate...
The last time there was a real proposal of merit on the table was 15 years ago...
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In mid-1996, Benjamin Netanyahu was elected Prime Minister of Israel by a margin of just one percent. Palestinian-Israeli relations grew even more hostile as a result of continued conflict.[80] Despite the Israel-PLO accord, Netanyahu opposed the idea of Palestinian statehood.[81] In 1998, U.S. President Bill Clinton persuaded the two leaders to meet. The resulting Wye River Memorandum detailed the steps to be taken by the Israeli government and PNA to complete the peace process.[82]
Arafat continued negotiations with Netanyahu's successor, Ehud Barak, at the Camp David Summit in July 2000. Due partly to his own politics (Barak was from the leftist Labor Party, whereas Netanyahu was from the rightist Likud Party) and partly due to insistence for compromise by President Clinton, Barak made what many Israelis called a "generous offer". Barak offered Arafat a Palestinian state in 73% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian percentage of sovereignty would extend to 91% (94% excluding Jerusalem) over a ten to twenty-five year period. Israel would annex the border settlement blocs (encompassing most Israeli settlements), and would cede the equivalent area in the Israeli Negev desert to the Palestinians. To ensure contiguity, an elevated roadway and railway would pass over the Negev from the West Bank to the Gaza Strip. All remaining Israeli settlements would be removed, with the exception of Kiryat Arba, which was to remain an Israeli enclave linked by a bypass road. An Israeli road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea would also cut through the West Bank, but Palestinians would have free passage. Israel would take sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods, sites holy to Judaism, and some Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, while the Palestinians would take sovereignty over some Palestinian neighborhoods, three Quarters of the Old City, and the remaining Palestinian neighborhoods would come under Palestinian autonomy. Palestinians would also have "custodianship" over the Temple Mount, and sovereignty on all Islamic and Christian holy sites. Palestine would have no military, and would rely on the PA's well-armed paramilitary security forces, and an international force in the Jordan Valley. Other demands were temporary Israeli observation of border crossings, sharing of water resources, Israeli right to build radar stations in Palestine and deploy troops in case of an emergency, no alliances without Israeli approval, the dismantling of all militant groups, and no foreign forces east of the Jordan River. Also included in the offer was the return of 100,000 refugees, $30 billion to resettle the remaining refugees, and compensation for those not allowed to return. Arafat rejected Barak's offer and refused to make an immediate counter-offer.[69] He stated to President Clinton that, "the Arab leader who would surrender Jerusalem is not born yet".[83] Arafat also made it clear that he would never relinquish the Palestinian right of return. The move was criticized by a member of his own negotiating team and cabinet, Nabil Amr.[69]
After the September 2000 outbreak of the Second Intifada, negotiations continued at the Taba summit in January 2001; this time, Ehud Barak pulled out of the talks to campaign in the Israeli elections. In October and December 2001, suicide bombings by Palestinian militant groups increased and Israeli counter strikes intensified. Following the election of Ariel Sharon in February, the peace process took a steep downfall. Palestinian elections scheduled for January 2002 were postponed—the stated reason was an inability to campaign due to the emergency conditions imposed by the Intifada, as well as IDF incursions and restrictions on freedom of movement in the Palestinian territories. In the same month, Sharon ordered Arafat to be confined to his Mukata'a headquarters in Ramallah, following an attack in the Israeli city of Hadera;[83] US President George W. Bush supported Sharon's action, claiming that Arafat was "an obstacle to the peace."[84]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat
Thanks, dangerfield. I must admit that racism pushes so many of my buttons it is all but impossible for me to post rationally.
Your first line summed things up beautifully. Thanks for pointing out the inherent racism contained therein.
So anything that Israel doesn't like must automatically be called "racist"?
Sounds a lot like arguments made in reference to Obama, or Beverly from Chicago.
Da Noid do ou disagree with Dangerfield or that the resolution is racist on its face?
ed3891..
Re your post..
Guarantee their right to exist peacefully and borders will never be an issue. They are at war daily on their own soil. No one has ever come to their aid when attacked. Forget who's in charge...it's self preservation.
I'm done...nite.
There will never be a nuke in Jerusalem.
Oh, but they do have interesting weapons in Israel, pointed towards the terriorist nations.
Safecracker, you are very annoying. You don't contribute any NEW ideas, just snipe at others. Sounds familiar...
Just acting like a libbie today bethie.
Now how does this differ from what the Feisty Troglodyte accomplishes with her posts?
And yep it does sound like Feisty, doesn't it?
And bethie, there are nuclear weapons in Israel.........
What's especially interesting about Obama's call for pre-1967 borders is that it spends his political capital now ahead of 2012. It's a gutsy call because he stands to lose Jewish voters in droves.
I'm surprised, too, because the President has been positioning himself as the moderate, centrist candidate. This puts him left of center. Up to this point, the President has done nothing to sink his chances in 2012. This may actually harm his re-election chances. I agree with his decision and respect him for making it.
Me too.
It's so easy for you guys to sit here and talk about what's right and what's wrong and who should give in and who should compromise, etc. But, have you ever actually met and talked with a Palestinian? It's like they have a scar on their very souls. I have nothing against Jews or Israeli's, but I feel that the Palestinians have definitely been wronged. And our President is on the right side of the issue--the side that says we have to look at this again, from all sides, and treat others with respect. That's all he's saying. It needs to be said.
Well Stated bethie! Thank You!
Short story. A Palestinian who is now living in a two room house, took his eldest daughter and her friends, who were visiting from the USA, to Israel. They stopped by a large, beautiful well kept house,( we later found out that it had 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms among other things) and knocked on the door. A lady came to the door and he asked for water to drink. She invited them in and the man said no, he didn't want to be a bother, they would just drink outside.
When they left, about a block away the man passed out. It took a few minutes to revive him. He later said that he spent years working hard and building and furnishing that house. It was taken away and he and his family was forced to live in a tent. He is so ashamed of the 'home' he now lives in , but that's all he can afford and it was difficult to even get that. He couldn't go into the house when invited because some of the furnishing was his.
His eldest daughter remembered the house, but did not know the history. He sheltered the kids from the truth, because he did not want them to be bitter. She and her husband now lives in the USA and they are very successful. She visit her family once a year for at least a month when the borders are open. She was an emotional wreck for a very long time just thinking about what her father went through. She is okay now.
That was my first and last visit to Israel.
You tell me why shouldn't they hate the Jews?
If you know anything about the people of Israel you would know that they were terrorists as well. They used suicide bombers, and every other tool that others are using against them. Their bible says they are God chosen people. If they are such good people, why are they hated worldwide? The Holocaust happened. The Jews also committed genocide.
I am not anti-Semitic, I am married to a historian.
They are human beings that have been wronged and have done wrong as well. If we blindly support them, then we are supporting what is being done to the Palestinians. Remember these people can only eat what the Jews says they can. Talk about big government.
The thing is, there are a lot of Jewish people who are in total disagreement with what is being done to Palestinians. You can't expect anyone to support and acknowledge you, when you treat them the way these people are being treated by Israel.
Oops..no apostrophe needed with "Israelis". My bad.
Happy you lib schmu**s? Your man just authorized the annihilation of Jews?
Sleep tight.
NEVER AGAIN!
Talk about hyperbole. If you don't like what the Nazis did to the Jews, why do you support what the Jews are doing to the Palestians? Ugh. So blind.
Oh yeah...the "Palestians" (stop drinking and learn how to talk/spell) are alot like the Israelis. The PALESTINEANS have pledged to wipe Jews off the face of the earth. UGH...SO STUPID! Or is that: UGH so ANTI-SEMITIC. See definition of schmu*k. Is that your picture?
BTW...did I mention Nazis? No. You did. WHAT does that tell us. Crawl back in your hole. Children (and morons) should be seen and not heard.
YOU mentioned the "annhiliation" of Jews, which was the goal of the Nazis, n'est-ce pas? That's a little over the top, IMHO. We disagree, but that doesn't make you right. IF they have made such a plege, that is wrong too. I tend to think it's in defense of their own country, their own right to have their land, homes, freedom. Or do they not have a right to those things because they are ARAB and not Jewish?
You, obviously have not lost six million relatives. So naive...
No, I have not. Have you? In any case, the Palestineans had absolutely nothing to do with that. I hope my reference to the Nazis was not inflammatory. I meant that it seems that the Israelis are taking away freedoms from the Palestineans much the same way the SS did when they put Jews in the ghettos and controlled their movements. Why is it OK for them to do so?
A: Yes I have. Did you ever bury anyone with numbers on their arms? I did. Many.
B: Yes it was.
C: No. The Jews in Nazi Germany posed no physical threat to anyone. They were the scapegoat for Germany's economic failure in the years following WW1 (remember that one?) I cannot believe you are not cognizant enough to know that. Well, that makes me the fool, I guess.
And, finally, D: The Israelis are simply protecting themselves from the ongoing onslaught of attck form all their borders. Are you naive enought to belive that if Israel were to go back to the '67 borders the Arabs would be appeased? Are you? You lose the forest for the trees. ARABS HATE JEWS! Period. No disussion. No matter what Israel did, even if they welcomed them with open arms into Jerusalem, they would always hate Jews. Now, you may not believe that. Good for you. But that is fact.
Remember that silly little movei when the Russians invaded the US? They fought back. Do you deny Israel the right to survive , as well? If Mexico were to invade and lob shells into Texas (well, oxymoron), or bomb defenseless children in school buses, or cut the throats of innocent babes in their sleep, would you not defend your little piece of land in Texas? Oh, yes you would, wouldn't you? But, Jews? They're killers, right?
Oh, and E: Bet you have a ton of compassion for the American negro slave back in yester-year. Reconcile that for me.
Obviously as a non-Jew your views, as always, are skewed against the Jew. Its not your fault. Its the indoctrination of your church. After all, we killed Jesus, didn't we?
Bethie, in all fairness, the Jews weren't lobbing rockets into German neighborhoods. Now that does raise the question, are the Palestinians throwing bombs because of Israeli heavy-handedness, or are the Israelis heavy-handed because the Palestinians are throwing bombs at them? This is a chicken and egg question no one here can answer. The fact is that these dudes don't like each other, and nothing we do will change that.
Ahhh...sanity in the playpen!
Actually, I agree with both of you. I just feel that killing is wrong, no matter who is doing it. I wish there were some way to give both peoples a place to live, a place to call their own. Maybe it's impossible. I am not a Jew, but I totally respect Jews. They suffered unspeakably in WW II.
Is there a way to preserve their livelihoods while also allowing Palestinians to move about freely? It just seems to be an impossible situation now. The violence has ratcheted up to the point that neither side is willing to compromise.
"Is there a way to preserve their livelihoods while also allowing Palestinians to move about freely? "
No.
xxx
Why not, RC? I think this, more than stopping the settlements, would make a big step towards peace in the middle east.
As I said...the Palestinians will stop at nothing to kill Jews. Witness the constant bombings to date. To leave them unchecked is to invite disaster.
The land is Israel's. Won in the war of '48 (in which my father fought ) and annexed in '67. Would you ask the US to give Texas back to Mexico? I doubt it. So why demand this of Israel?
We could give Texas, a disputed territory at the time of the conflict, "back" to Mexico tomorrow, and then take it back from them in the next 24 hours.
Israel was imposed upon the Palestinians by the world's super-powers. Apples and Oranges.
No...it was won in the war of independance...much like america. It was a brit colony, like india, ireland and america and taken. It is never going back.
At this point it looks more like the Israelis will stop at nothing to kill and take the land of the Palestinians. And all the Palestinians are doing is fighting back. After all, the Palestinians were taught terrorism by the Zionists, you know, the Sturmm Gang and their ilk. It is not like the Palestinians have heavy weaponry, no jets, no artillery, no tanks, no APCs, just a few small arms and mostly home made rockets and mortars, vastly inaccurate, against precision guided armaments. If you saw your people being forced off their Historic Homelands and being killed, all of the best lands taken, the land being broken up with roads that you could not even cross, would YOU not fight against the occupiers??
If Israel is SERIOUS about peace, and they have not, EVER, proven that, then they need to get out of the West Bank, OUT of Gaza and LEAVE those people alone. Israel is the playground bully that when caught pounding on the little kid whines that "He Hit Me BACK First!". The Israeli hardliners and military have every interest in keeping the animosity going, they gain power from it, and Stay in power.
Heck, most of the school shootings that we have here in the US have been the kid that got bullied to the point that they snapped. Why does anyone think that the Palestinians are any different? Millenia old antagonisms?? That just means that the Jews are just as guilty, so it is imperative for BOTH sides to stop, and since it is Israel doing the occupying, THEY are the ones who are going to have to stop THAT first before there is going to be ANY chance of actual peace.
Of Course, Israel's Hard Liners are mostly in the Arms Business, and THEY will not stop the conflict, they will not stop the "Permanent Emergency" that gives them so much power. Do you really think that those in power, those same hard liners, would do ANYTHING at all in the line of peace when they STAY in power by keeping their own populace SCARED of the Palestinians, and keep the Palestinians MAD so that the Israelis have a reason to be scared?? Get rid of those hard liners from both sides, and peace will break out, both sides, the real People, not the hardliners on both sides that profit from the status quo, but the real people from both sides would like to just have a chance at a peaceful life.
Reality Check-1104333..
I've posted a lot here and I hope you read my posts in defense of Israel above. If this be my last post here I wanted to talk to you.
You can't expect people here to understand, they simply can't relate. Their families weren't wiped out by the Nazi's, did not live through the Pogroms or bury relatives who fought in defense of Israel. They've never had a relative with a number tattooed on their arm or even talked to a survivor. It's easy to walk through a museum like Yad Vashem and say oh my God. It's different if you know your family lived it. It's different when people forget that 6 million people died, their only crime, they were Jewish. They forget that Israel has been in 14 wars since 1948, initiated by nations whose sole purpose in starting the war was to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. That effort by these terrorists continues every day. After 911 we went after the people that attacked us. Israel is not afforded the same rights. Not a single country ever came to the aid of Israel when it was attacked, even when it was on the verge of being over run in 1973. I'm guessing no one ever will. We know that Israel exists because of the blood spilled by it's treasured young. A remembrance of the Hollocaust and the sacrifices of people shape Israeli foreign policy. Never again will Jews be attacked and not defend themselves. An attack on one citizen of Israel is an attack on all its citizens. The murder of Jews will never again be tolerated. It's our obligation to each other as Jews.
Ira, and Reality Check- I am not Jewish- have lost no family to the horrors of Nazi Germany- but I am, also, no anti-Semite.
My grandfather was in the War, and gave me a book that was given to the men in their kits, it contained short stories, essay, and the like. One of the stories was told in a series of letters between businessmen- one a German Jew, the other a British business owner.
The story was gripping- and terrifying. I was about 12 when I read it.
My question, to the adults in my family, was simple- Why? It made no sense to me then, and even less now.
To expect Israel to simply take whatever the Arab nations want to dish out is repugnant to me- and all I know of pogroms is from reading. This idiotic trend of anti-Semitism among the chi-chi left is both baffling and disgusting.
I may not be Jewish, but I will defend Israel with my last breath. You can count on that. Like those country, it is a beacon of hope in a frightening world.
"Reality Check" - If the land is Israel's as you claim why do they even call it "Disputed Territory"?
Comparing Texas to the West Bank and Gaza is apples to oranges. Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. are part of the United States under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848.
No such treaty exists that negotiated the West Bank and Gaza as part of Israel.
I believe in Israel. I have always believed it was just.
That said, witholding statehood from the Palestinians is grossly unjust. They have been ousted from much of their land, and left in limbo.
The Palestinians are justifiably frustrated. Israel won't settle because they won't give up the water under the West Bank. You never hear about this, but it is a critical issue.
Hamas is going to have to recognize Israel, as bitter a pill as that may be. Statehood would be just the panacea they need.
Every person deserves a country, not just those we like.
Obama is an idiot on this one!!!! Isreal won that land after being invaded by Arab countries. Israel beat them back and conqured that land. All the Arab countries did not want to take those Palastenians in thier country. So instead of taking care of their bretheren, (thats how much they hate the Jews), they tell them to fight for that land. They support the fighting all these years. At different times Isreal has offered different acreage but were refused. Isreal have to control their border because the Palenstenians commit acts of terror on the Israelis. The Palestenians want to rid them of the world (Nazism?). Obama cannot tell Israel or any other country what to do. He is so arrogant. I am a democrat and voted for him, but I detest him almost as much as I did Bush! I will not vote for him next time.
Take a deep breath.
"Is there a way to preserve their livelihoods while also allowing Palestinians to move about freely? "
No.
On a sidenote, I hope we just didn't lose our aircraft carrier in the middle east. A lot of our medical extractions originate in Israel, since they're flat-out unabashedly welcoming of our military (unlike japan, korea, phillipines, and every else it seems).
Any chance Obama will take a look at the polls this weekend and change his stance? He is such a loser!
No matter what our President Obama/Commander in Chief says or doesn't say, does or doesn't do, the GOP will harshly criticize his every action. I feel President Obama will go down in history as one of the best presidents the USA has ever had! The man is doing everything possible to help our country and Earth!
How about the comments by Israel after the Obama summit? Care to respond to them Chuckie Todd? Didn't look good for the President, did it?
another foot in the mouth meeting for Obie! Will he walk up back or move forward to placate the ragheads?
Oh well, just another day at the Capital Hill Circus.......time to go to the club for a Manhattan and do an Obama. Nine holes after a toddy!!!!!
Good weekend everyone, especially you Feisty. And Bev, the self-proclaimed racist from Chicago, rest those fingers that cut and past comments from the Sorros web sites.
The issue Mr. President is not the borders at all. The Arab Terrorist Organizations are not to be given any territory back, and no concessions can be given to these killers. The State of Israel must keep it's present borders intact, and any retreat will be seen as weakness. The constant theme of the Arab World is to exterminate the people of Israel. Again! The Palestine situation is not for freedom for all but, for the enslavement of Israel. The time for this border change is impractical, and it will put Israel in a very volunerable situation. Again! Never again will the Arab hatred of ignorance be allowed to run wild. Read, research, and understand the history of this situation is still needed Mr. President. The bottom line is very simple. Any attack on the State of Israel will be met with brutal force by the United States. That is fact!