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Subscribe to RSSTo release the photos, or not to release them?... Why it’s important for the administration to get its narrative straight: because it would be FAR WORSE if discrepancies are discovered later… Panetta admits they had a license to kill bin Laden… Fact-checking shows that the “enhanced interrogations” played only a minor role in getting to bin Laden… NYT/CBS poll finds Obama getting an 11-point bounce… Mitch Daniels in the spotlight… Fodder for tomorrow’s debate: TPaw supports a decrease in the level of U.S. troops in Afghanistan… And the DNC today makes Wasserman Schultz official.
*** To release the photos, or not to release them? Senior administration officials have told NBC News that a decision on whether to release the photos of a dead Osama bin Laden will be made today. The pro to releasing them: They will provide additional proof -- to the news media, nation, and world -- that he is dead (though as we saw with President Obama’s birth certificate, extra proof doesn’t necessarily mean it will end the conspiracy theories). The con: They could inflame the Arab street and become an image others could exploit. Here is our question, however: Who is asking for the photos outside the media and a handful of U.S. politicians? Is there really doubt he’s dead? Al Arabiya is reporting, per Pakistani security forces, that bin Laden’s daughter even admits he’s dead (though she alleges he was held captive for 10 minutes before being killed). At this point, the most prominent member of the president's national security team advocating release is CIA chief Leon Panetta (as he told NBC’s Brian Williams yesterday). But most of the members of the team are leaning against, including folks that sit at the State Department and Pentagon. Ditto with key West Wing aides.
*** Getting the narrative straight: While the Obama administration is probably frustrated by the attention it has received for changing its initial story on the raid on bin Laden’s compound -- it turns out that bin Laden wasn’t armed and that he didn’t use his wife as a shield -- consider it would be FAR WORSE for the administration if news organizations (say in Pakistan, thanks to ISI leaks of THEIR interviews with those compound residents who were left behind alive) found out the discrepancies later. Even the allegation by bin Laden’s daughter that her father was held before being killed is a reminder that Team Obama needs to have its story straight as quickly as possible. The last thing they want to do is have to CHANGE their story AFTER a discovery from an outside source. They have to be able to stay ahead of this to keep their own credibility. Better to take a small lump of youknowwhat 24 hours later than deal with cable catnip problems in a few weeks/months (see: Lynch, Jessica)
*** A license to kill: Speaking of killing bin Laden, perhaps the most newsworthy part of Brian Williams’ interview with Leon Panetta yesterday was this line from the CIA chief: The orders were to kill him. “The authorities we have on Bin Laden are to kill him. And that was made clear. But it was also, as part of their rules of engagement, if-- if he suddenly put up his hands and offered to be captured, then-- they would have the opportunity, obviously, to capture him. But that opportunity never developed.” This was a kill mission; there was a VERY high bar for the Seals before they could make the determination that he should be taken alive.
*** Did the harsh interrogations play an important role? News organizations are fact-checking the assertion that the “enhanced interrogation techniques” during the Bush administration helped lead to bin Laden. And the emerging consensus is that they played a small role. The New York Times: “[A] closer look at prisoner interrogations suggests that the harsh techniques played a small role at most in identifying Bin Laden’s trusted courier and exposing his hide-out. One detainee who apparently was subjected to some tough treatment provided a crucial description of the courier, according to current and former officials briefed on the interrogations. But two prisoners who underwent some of the harshest treatment — including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times — repeatedly misled their interrogators about the courier’s identity.” As one former U.S. counterterrorism official told NBC’s Michael Isikoff: “They waterboarded KSM 183 times, and he still didn’t give the guy up.” More: “Come on. And you want to tell me that enhanced interrogation techniques worked?"
*** Looks like Obama will be solo at Ground Zero tomorrow: As NBC’s Savannah Guthrie reported last night, President Obama invited former President George W. Bush to attend Thursday's event at Ground Zero in New York. Bush, however, declined. Yet he plans to be at Ground Zero for the 10th-year anniversary of 9/11 this September. Guthrie adds that Obama also invited former President Bill Clinton, but he is unlikely to attend due to a scheduling conflict.
*** Where’s the bounce? The day after a one-day Washington Post poll found Obama getting a nine-point bounce in his approval rating, a new two-day New York Times/CBS poll shows the president’s numbers increasing 11 points, from 46% last month to 57% now. “The increase in Mr. Obama’s ratings came largely from Republicans and independents. Among independents, his approval rating increased 11 points from last month, to 52 percent, while among Republicans it rose 15 points, to 24 percent. Among Democrats, 86 percent supported his job performance, compared with 79 percent in April.”
*** Daniels in the spotlight: Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels (R) steps into the Beltway -- and presidential-speculation -- spotlight today when he delivers a speech at the conservative American Enterprise Institute in DC at 12:30 pm ET. The subject of the address is the education reform that Daniels signed into law, which includes expanding charter schools and vouchers in Indiana. But the subtext is the growing speculation that Daniels could enter the GOP presidential race. On FOX yesterday, per NBC’s Jason Seher, he acknowledged speaking about a possible bid with George W. Bush. But Daniels also didn’t sound like an enthusiastic candidate When asked if he would like to run for president, he gave this short answer: “No.” Daniels added he only agreed to consider running for president after "a lot of people" insisted he give it some thought. On the other hand, National Review’s Ramesh Ponnuru, who was part of a journalists’ meeting with Daniels, believes he’s leaning toward a run. Tonight, also in DC, Daniels will receive an award from the Arab American Institute Foundation.
*** Fodder for tomorrow’s debate: Yesterday in Iowa, Tim Pawlenty said the U.S. should try to decrease its troop levels in Afghanistan within the next two years if the conditions are right, the Des Moines Register reports. “‘I think we need enough military capacity in Afghanistan or at least in the region, so if another material threat to the United States is identified, that we can respond and interrupt it and defeat it, efficiently and quickly,” he said.” *** UPDATE *** A Pawlenty spokesman responds, "Gov. Pawlenty has always said that troop levels in Afghanistan should be determined by conditions on the ground and military commanders' recommendations. On the Governor's third trip to Afghanistan last summer, General Petreaus told him that if progress continued, we could begin to reduce troop levels in about two years. This weekend's attack shows the importance of maintaining our presence in the region and determining future troop levels based on conditions on the ground."
*** Who’s acceptable and not: A new national Quinnipiac poll measures which GOP presidential candidates the American public finds acceptable and not. On the unacceptable side: 58% said they would NEVER vote for Palin or Trump, and 42% said they wouldn’t vote for Gingrich. By comparison, just 26% said they would never vote for Romney, and 32% said the same of Huckabee. In the poll’s trial heat among Republicans and GOP leaners, Romney leads the field with 18% -- followed by Huckabee and Palin at 15% each, Trump at 12%, and Gingrich, Daniels, and Paul at 5%.
*** Making Wasserman Schultz official: At 3:00 pm ET, the Democratic National Committee meets to formally elect Florida Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz as the DNC’s next chairman. She will replace Tim Kaine, who is running for Virginia’s open Senate seat.
Countdown to NY-26 special election: 20 days
Countdown to Iowa GOP straw poll: 100 days
Countdown to NV-2 special election: 132 days
Countdown to Election Day 2011: 188 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 278 days
* Note: When the IA caucuses take place depends on whether other states move up
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Watching the dialogue on FR the last two days has been interesting. It started out with lots of Kudos for our President on how he handled the OBL situation by both parties. This was an evil man and he has been brought to Justice. He is now facing a higher court for his ultimate sentence.
It did not take long for MSM and the usual pundits to weigh in on what transpired over the last several days and provide the typical spinning.
It started with many from the GOP/TP trying to attribute the lion’s share of the credit for the fall of OBL to President Bush and his Afghan policy. In my opinion as I wrote yesterday on FT post # 1.0, he does deserve some credit for initially getting the ball rolling. After that nothing as he took his eyes off the ball period. He promised the American people Justice and he would relentlessly chase OBL down. He did not. Not too long after invading Afghan President Bush looses interest in OBL and the following takes place.
Shortly after going into Afghan we had OBL wounded and boxed up in the mountains of Tora Bora. Our forces asked for reinforcements and equipment to stage an attack on his base and take him out (or capture?), this was Dec of 2001. All requests were denied by the powers to be and hence OBL was able to escape or actually allowed to escape by the Bush inaction to take him out then and there.
Later President Bush claims that OBL in no longer important, he does not know where he is nor does he care.
We invade Iraq based on lies and take what little resources that were in Afghan are redeployed them to Iraq leaving the remaining troops in Afghan to fend for them selves.
In 2005 the CIA Agency in charge of tracking OBL is dissolved and any further real tracking of him come to a halt. At this point he has no claim.
In my opinion this is not a plan of a President that claims he wants OBL to pay up. This is not being relentless and sustained. He did nothing to get OBL and he had 7 years to bring him down. He had some of the very same intelligence we had today and still he did nothing. I am sorry, this was a complete failure on the part of President Bush and he does not deserve any credit for what “Our President”, the intelligence community and most importantly our Military did. He gave that up when he walked away from Afghan and lost interest in bringing Justice to America. Yesterday afternoon http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/03/bush-did-not-catch-bin-laden/ put up an article that goes into more detail that I did. President Obama proved to the world that he is a leader and he will not sit idle by. He does have a backbone and is not afraid to make the tough call, even if it hurts him at the polls. He did it with the pirates as well.
The rhetoric then took an amazing turn toward the rights of OBL & KSM and the justification of torture. These two arguments are more shameful than just trying to ride “Our President’s” coat tail.
Some on the right now are complaining that we violated the rights of OBL by killing him. In my opinion the GOP is putting this murderer on a platform and calling him a martyr with such rhetoric. This begs the question why? Is it another I was for it before I was against it moment? Or, and this is most likely, are the GOP/TP trying to divide us again by inciting a segment of the population by saying our President killed an unarmed man that happens to be Muslim. This man killed 3,000 people in NYC, injured tens of thousands including Health issues for many “First Responders. It was reported late yesterday that OBL was unarmed, so what, he gave up any rights he may have had when that first plane hit the first tower and besides our troops were heavily engaged in a fire fight. Bottom line is they did a perfect mission. They brought down their target, retrieved thousands of documents that may save future lives including hard drives etc. They did it in 40 minutes and not one American Life was lost. They are American Hero’s and should be treated as such.
And the latest BS was that water boarding led to the vital information that led to the take down of OBL. Leave aside the repugnant fact that the GOP/TP is seeking to try and gain some credit through the back door, they would look to torture as their contribution and trying to justify water boarding again. KSM underwent water boarding in 2003. At that time he was presented with the name of the courier and he denied knowing him. This sent up red flags everywhere as that particular courier was well known within the ranks. The intelligence community was looking for the link to OBL. In 2007 under traditional interrogation methods we got the name. It took another few years to finally get the location of the courier. There is no proof that water boarding provided anything of real value that led to the take down of OBL. http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-republican-spin.html, http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/03/feinstein-intel-torture-bin-laden/
In summary President Bush has a very weak claim to any credit on taking down OBL as he walked away from his promise to bring OBL to Justice. Have you noticed that it is not President Bush who is asking for credit, it is the GOP/TP political hacks that are and not for reconigation but for political gain only. His actions (or lack of) during those 7 years are proof. As far as Afghan goes, President Bush was a failure. It took Our President a tad over 2 years to keep the promise that Bush did not. The GOP/TP can no longer make the claim that President Obama is weak on defense of this country. There are a few despots who are not sleepy as soundly as they did a few days ago. The argument on killing OBL somehow how violates his rights is just stupid and grasping at imaginary straws. The disputed argument that water boarding led to the intelligence that led to the taking down of OBL is a weak attempt to try and get a piece of the credit by using torture as their contribution and justifying water boarding as a viable and legal technique in interrogations. There is no proof that torture provided the key to taking out OBL.
MSNBC just now announced President Obama invited President Bush to join him in NYC at ground zero on Thursday. Bush declined. Now I am going to assume he declined because he feels this is President Obama’s moment and he does not want to take away from it.
I was on the fence yesterday, when someone mentioned that President Obama should invite George Bush to Ground Zero tomorrow and wasn't sure why...
Then I heard the news last night that 'W' didn't want to go because he wants to keep his Presidency out of the 'spotlight'!
Understandably so... lol
In the meantime, here's another shining example of President Obama doing the right thing by extending his hand and 'W' giving him the FINGER!
AGAIN!
Conspiracy Theories:
Perhaps there have always been conspiracy theories. The death of Lincoln, Kennedy, Princes Diana; the moon walk hoax, our government aided in the 9/11 tragedy. Simply put, when real life events happen that are different than what one wants to believe, the person has to create a new, internal reality to minimize their cognitive dissonance.
I've seen a number of examples coming from the far right. President Obama was born in Kenya, healthcare will kill grandma, President Obama is a Muslim are just a few examples. Now I'm hearing new conspiracy theories concerning the death of Bin Laden. Some say he has been dead for 10 years, frozen, and for some crazy reason has now surfaced and made public. Another conspiracy theory is that Bin Laden is not dead. It's all a cover-up.
These conspiracy theories seem to flourish when our President is successful. Rush Limbaugh may have been the first to openly say that he wanted our President to fail. But with each accomplishment, those who dislike President Obama conjure up some notion that has little to no reality basis.
Spoken often enough by Fox News and the internet, these conspiracy theories do gain a life of their own. Recently President Obama did release the long form of his birth certificate to quell the craziness. I suspect that as the Bin Laden conspiracy theories gain some momentum, we will see some gruesome photos of his death.
Personally, I would prefer the photos not be released to the public. There is already enough hatred in the world and to release the photos will needlessly inflame and insult the Muslim world.
On the matter of the photo's - does it really matter?
President Obama will be damned if he DOES & damned if he DOESN'T
If he doesn't, the bat sh!t crazy crowd will NEVER let it rest...
If he does, and there's backlash from the Muslim world, the same nuts will become the I TOLD YOU SO crowd
More for the cable channels to shred him with!
Personally, I have no desire to see them, I am well aware though, that there is a certain element that get's off on stuff like THAT!
Same worn out tired game of 'Pin the BLAME on Obama'!!!
In my opinion we have to be very careful in what we release to the public. There is a very real risk of stirring up the radicals when you show a picture of their leader with his brains blown out all over the place.
I can just see a large picture of this in radical training camps with rhetoric how Americans did this to their leader.
This whole exercise is still unfolding and it may be months before the whole picture becomes clear. I think we just need to take it slow an weigh the pros and cons very carefully. This mission was a total success, the enemy is dead, no American lives were lost and we got a bevy of new intelligence.
The enemy does not know what intelligence we have captured and I suspect many of them are now trying to cover their tracks and going underground.
In the meantime, here's another shining example of President Obama doing the right thing by extending his hand and 'W' giving him the FINGER!
______________________________________________________
Looks like Bill Clinton is giving Barry the FINGER also.
"scheduling conflict"???
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*** Looks like Obama will be solo at Ground Zero tomorrow: As NBC’s Savannah Guthrie reported last night, President Obama invited former President George W. Bush to attend Thursday's event at Ground Zero in New York. Bush, however, declined. Yet he plans to be at Ground Zero for the 10th-year anniversary of 9/11 this September. Guthrie adds that Obama also invited former President Bill Clinton, but he is unlikely to attend due to a scheduling conflict.
The republicans wont believe that Obama got Osama until he shows the pictures... along with his long form death certificate, seal raised long form birth certificate and school records. LOL.
I quite frankly don't care if the pictures are released... whatever the white house decides should be in the best inerest of the nation and unlike birthers... I'll accept that.
Thank You my president.
@Navy
Name one person on the right who is claiming that his rights were violated. It was candidate Obama and current AG Holder who were calling for scum like this to have rights conferred on them. Everybody I know applauds the Presidents actions. What I find amusing is that many on this board have called GWB a war criminal but are applauding President Obama's use of an execution squad. Call it for what it is because I have no problems that they shot OSB in the head and dumped his body in the ocean. I had friends in those buildings. President Obama is a different person than candidate Obama now that he sees things from the other side. The only advice I would have for him is to replace his AG. He doesn't seem to have got the plot yet.
The Man Who Shot bin Laden
I realize from reports I've been reading that there is no way that the names of the individuals who went into this compound will never be released. As it should be.
But is there any way that the individual who shot bin Laden will be interviewed in shadow on 60 Minutes? For that matter, it would be nice if America heard from all of them, whether it be as an article in the newspaper or interview.
Does this ever happen?
I suspect the photo will be released. It's unnecessary. He's dead. Let's close this chapter now, and move on.
I'm much more interested in hearing from those who went on this mission.
Joey, Albany,
It really doesn't matter who shows up with Obama tomorrow....we all know he was the only one to get the job done. dubya and Clinton's efforts will obviously be compared to Obama's efforts, so the right thing for them to do would be to stay out of it (i would say unfortunately though, because all 3 tried to kill to S.O.B - Obama just dedicated more resourse/intelligence to it, so he got the job done).
Dubya sat on the intel for how long now? while blowing up Iraq.... As for Clinton, Osama probably wasnt his top priority (he hadn't blown up the USA yet)...
Good job President Obama. Godspeed and job well done.
Clinton - scheduling conflict - definition: already has a prior commitment!
Bush - HIDING OUT of the 'spotlight' definition: doesn't want to remind us of his disastrous Presidency!
The right already has enough problems with the characters who are running in 2012! ;o)
Listening to the news accounts on Monday morning in the early morning hours the first thought that I had related to the account of the burial at sea of the body was this very thing. There are some within our populace and the world at large that is going to build a large conspiracyout of this. Pictures sad to say will not make it go away. Pictures released will only satisfy the prurient interest of a few and the conspiracy theorists will continue unabated. I would rather see the entire body of proof assembled and made available to the Congress and such other World bodies or Leaders as would be necessary for confirmation. Justice has been done. I do not see the necessity of dancing on the grave.
Check out Mr. Bill #6 below!
Don't worry, it's still early, the rest of the baggers & birthers will be here shortly!
Pat:
Our conversation yesterday led me to write todays post. I too look forward to hearing from the SEAL who shot Bin Laden.
Excellent summary, US Navy.
Check out Mr. Bill #6 below!
I read #6 below from Mr Bill and came to the conclusion that your English Comprehension is abysmal.
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
Good post, but common Feisty, did you think when President Obama got Osama, that there wont be some elements of the wing-nut party out there that wont be criticizing him. I watched Hannity last night, and he was blaming the administration for not holding on to the body longer and wondering why the president respected the Islamic burial practices - he then inferred that the president was weak.... i busted out laughing because President Obama just delivered Osama (a guy who they couldn't get for 7years) on a platter/slain, and he's complaining about why we respected the Islamic traditions.... shows you where these numb-nuts/nut-jobs stand.
I am NOT in favor of publicly releasing the pics. I would be in favor of showing them among those in Congress who are usually in the loop on matters of national security. No doubt a time will come when those pictures get out into the wild, but at this point there's just no purpose to be served other than getting terrorists and their sympathizers riled.
Last evening Hardball Chris equated President Obama to being 'cold-blooded' (in a nice way) for his handling of the Somali pirate, and the OBL strike.
Chris, it is not cold-blooded to use all of the professionals that President Obama has at his disposal to rid the world of a mass murderer.
President Obama is NOT cold-blooded.....check out his proposals and policies over the last 2 years!
Cold-blooded would be the former President who took this country to war based on LIES!.....thousands of deaths......based on LIES...Billions of dollars obligated.....based on LIES!..
The epitomy of being COLD-BLOODED....George W. Bush!
I have no burning desire to see pictures, in fact I think it would be a huge mistake. We have many assets and personnel in that most dangerous part of the world and we would put them in jeopardy by publishing these gruesome pictures.
On the other hand I also, can understand the dilemma as there are always those who will want more 'proof'.
Once again something our President has done to help the country is being politicized. I wish for once, certain people would leave their nasty cynical thoughts to themselves and take this moment as a good one for the country.
Looking at the big picture, any intelligence gathered over the past few years has had to have been helpful, if that intelligence was obtained by extreme methds (torture) it must not have been very good, otherwise, why wasn't it used before now?
The decision by President Obama to go ahead with the riskiest option, to me, is the most telling. He had a lot to lose politically if they had failed, yet he choose the difficult path. This tells me, that he is willing to do the right thing for the good of the country no matter the consequences.
Getting a bounce in the polls would have been the furthest objective from his mind, and that I believe is the difference between him and the previous administration.
Get the job done that needs doing and do it for the common good. I am so proud of my President and will gladly work again to get him re-elected.
Navy, I can see the death photos of Bin Laden as big posters in those radical Islamic training camps.
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201105020016
Alan Why don’t you check out this video and maybe it will answer your question
I don't care if they show the photos or not. The wingnuts will find a way to believe they aren't real, no matter what Pres. Obama decides. I trust Pres. Obama to do what is in the best interests of our country, and to hell with the nut cases.
Not for a second Tunde! ;o)
What I didn't expect was for them to start with the bin Laden's been irrelevant for years defense...
These wing nuts are like a box of chocaltes - you NEVER know what you're going to get!
Ron Pat I think that given what little I know about the Gentlemen of the team involved I believe that the only answer that you would ever get is that " We all pulled the trigger on that one"
OMG, IR that link is unbelievable, this guy sounds like he should be living in another country. This is as unAmerican as it can get.
How do people like him get a forum for their obscene thoughts, really disgusting and the awful part is there is an audience for him.
I stand corrected. One loon on the right. Although his argument was more slanted towards limiting the powers of the President to order such a killing rather than conferring rights on OSB, which I would normally agree with, but his tirade is so transparent in that he would not be saying this if a Republican was president that the hypocrisy flows from the screen.
Having said that a debate on the powers of the president to order such killings may be a good thing in the future once the dust has settled.
W. Bush refused Obama's invitation to join him because of the Bush family ties with the Bin Ladens. Bush knows that if anything this is not just going to be a reminder of those that perished on the tragic day of 9/11, but also a celebration of redemption and justice for all Americans. W. Bush does not want to show that kind of support while one of the family member of his good friends just died. Don't worry Bush I am sure the Bin Laden family knows you did all that you could to prevent his capture and assassination throughout your administration. I am sure the Bin Laden family will be touched by your sentiment of not wanting to show up to the sight where proof of their sons handy work still lingers. Oh well on a lighter side, Osama Bin Laden is dead and God bless America!!!!
Alan, are you suggesting that we should have shook Osama Bin Ladin's hand once we established he was living there?
One loon too many, all it takes is one to get the ball of hate rolling, I thought you were a more reasonable fellow than that.
Well ... leffties, there you go again. Can't stop getting in your Bush bashing can you Feisty?
Here's a twist for you all. I DON'T CARE!!!!!! He's Dead, thank you very much! Good job Prez.
Now can we get back to important stuff like the Budget and Debt?
We have to take a "Cause and Effect" approach to this decision to release this pic of Osama. Although it would satisfy this country's sick curiosity, it would only backfire by enraging an already angry Muslim community who were sympathetic to Bin Laden. Some things should be left under wraps and this is one of them. I'm sure in time these photos will be released, but now is not that time. Ultimately the White House will be making this call and am sure they understand the risks.
Well, this is just one person's opinion, but. . .
I think those pictures will only be released if some tape comes out purporting to be from bin Laden after his death. It is the only thing that makes sense to me.
Unless, of course, the doubts "grow legs". Some of the narratives of the events have changed - understandably, in my opinion. After all, this was an incredibly fast moving event, and I believe it was a mistake for Brennan to give an account so quickly- then have to change some details of the story. (was anyone else glued to the television on September 12, 2001, when it appeared that rescuers had found some of the firefighters alive in the rubble? For a little while, there was such joy and hope- then it turned out that those men were not, in fact, among the missing from the day before. Just an example of how difficult it is to accurately depict such events when there is chaos all around.)
From new reports, it seems that the White House was in the dark about events for about half an hour. Read here
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/158941-obama-did-not-see-bin-laden-shot-panetta-says-
So, I think they will wait the situation out, and release the pictures when it becomes necessary.
Hopefully, it never will.
Let me see if I understand this correctly.
President Bush makes people believe that they're going to drown to death -BAD BAD BAD - He should be jailed!!
President Obama has people murdered, pirates, OBL. GOOD GOOD GOOD - I will never understand the lunatics on the left.
I'm glad to see President Obama being tough on those who hate America but I was also glad to see President Bush do the same. The left in this country should just STFU because they make themselves look like idiots on a daily basis.
Why not release the pics? Did the enemy not show off pictures of one of our troops literally hanging from a pole after they had killed him? Stripped down as I recall, but I could be wrong.
There's no reason why they can't use a photoshop program to blur out the "gruesome" part as they put it, and just show his face so no one can actually see the wound above his eye. Doesn't sound too difficult to me.
All people want proof of is that is it him, and that yes indeed, he's dead. So cover up the nasty parts and release the pictures. As for the video of his burial, too bad they didn't just chuck him overboard as opposed to "easing him into the sea"... but then again, it puts us at an advantage that we Americans don't stoop to their level and proudly show our dead enemies in offensive ways.
Good job to Obama, the CIA and especially the spec. ops team who went in there pretty much blind. I'm a disabled veteran myself, who served in security and can at least somewhat understand the level of tension they must of been going thru as they swooped in there. Excellent job to all.
No idea how you reached this conclusion. All I said was that Nalpolitano is making a hypocritical and transparent argument against the President's decision. I totally disagree with him and I applaud the President's actions.
All I added was that perhaps in the future, when the dust has settled from this, that a debate should take place over what the limits of presidential power should be. I believe a similar debate occurred after the attempts to assassinate Castro.
Here is hoping that they held that scum bag and let him sit there in fear as he know that his end was near. I hope they manhandle him a bit too, before they executed him from crimes against humanity. I only wished they had time to read him every name of the people he helped to murder on 9/11, before his send off.
Ok now that is out of the way. I would like to see the pictures, but I think the responsible thing is to get representatives from the house, senate, news organizations and heads of states, if they so choose to come. Have a viewing and then drop the subject. There is no need to have potential propaganda fodder for the crazy bastards that are going to strike in his name. As far as the people on the vine that has been complaining about the burial of at sea and as to why he was giving so much honor. Well he was not giving any honors. No one was there to mourn him, no one was there to say their last good byes, he was dumped in the ocean when he should have been buried on land. The US met the Muslims halfway, so they do not have too much to bitch about as to how he was disposed of and he was disposed of.
Now for the un-patriotic Americans, who are crying that the POTUS had nothing to do with this and it was only our troops. I have one thing to ask, if the POTUS gave the orders to execute the mission like he did and our fine SEALs were captured and killed, who would you blame?
That's I have have to say about that.
If the remains were positively identified before burial at sea, then there is no more to be done. The unmarked site of the burial shall preclude a shrine in Bin Laden's memory.
To parade images of Bin Laden will only add fuel to the fire for those whom may support his memory as a martyr.
It is enough to know that the wasted life of a terrorist-lunatic has come. He shall not have what he most wanted; notoriety and martyrdom.
Having said that a debate on the powers of the president to order such killings may be a good thing in the future once the dust has settled…………………………………………………………Alan I can agree with that sentiment. In fact it was my exact thought to some of my more right leaning friends when we were debating the Unitary Executive tendencies of the Bush administration.
Old Navy thinkprogress dumpster diver,
Sheez, I tell you to crawl out of the thinkprogress dumpster and just Wiki OEF to get a clue and you climb right back in the intellectual garbage dumpster and just dig deeper. At least you have your years right today, the garbage is closer to not being spoiled, but it still has big green flies on it.
Do you even know what SAD, SAS, what an ODA is. The operation, especially the pursuit of OBL, especially in the White Mountain of Tora Bora was completely asymmetrical.
1. The conduct of the war was quarterbacked not by politicians, but by the military commanders that devote their entire lives to studying, learning, gaining experience and actually know what they are doing. Bush gave the orders, the goals and they executed it. Presidents don't make tactical decisions unless they are idiots like Johnson and are determined to screw everything up.
2. There were other big battles going on, OBL was not the sole goal. Mazari-i-Sharif, Kabul, Kunduz, Qala-I-Jangi, Kandahar. On top of this it was November and December of 2001. How many troops were actually deployed by then Old Navy. What kind of operational bases and assets do you have. What kind logistics and support are developed within a couple of months in a primative undeveloped land where most don't even toilets and their goats sleep inside with the people, where there are community holes in the ground for everybody to crap in? Roads? good luck.
The fact is that Afghanistan was not Iraq where you could build up a couple hundred thousand troops, bring in Abrams and Bradleys, artillery units etc. The assets weren't there in November and December 2001. Different type of war.
3. Tora Bora is one of the most rugged, desolate areas in the world. It was also a fortified series of cave complexes. Not good. Ask the Russians their opinion.
How do you put enough troops on every cliff and what is that loss rate with RPGs flying up the rear end every time you drop the ramp? How do you supply them and what is that loss rate?
And you cite the Soros idiots!
The ODAs were close, they killed over 200 al-Qaeda in the caves and mountains, the al-Qaeda were negoitiating a surrender. Some alliance fighters ended up betraying the ODAs, fighting resumed, all caves were cleared and OBL got through the blocking forces into Pakistan.
Our best did their best. We don't have 100% success everytime, Old Navy. Grow up.
Russia lost over 65,000 and never even came close to accomplishing what Bush did in a few months. Bush won the battles above, closed the terrorist camps, removed the Taliban and chased OBL into Pakistan.
The American losses through Decmber 2001 - 7! Obama lost 45 last month alone! What did he win?
I gave credit to Obama for doing his job and Bush for laying the ground work.
You couldn't stand it. Still obsessing. Up all night doing your little cut-in-paste trying to deny Bush any credit. Pathetic.
Who are the real haters.
Need some help? Dig in the dumpster some more and see if you can find a mirror.
Photos can be faked, thats not a theory either.
By the way Bob, Obama deserves sole credit for the "Killing" Of Bin Ladin. Acting President george the Lessor doesn't even deserve the time of day
LOL!! Like these radical pieces of human excrement need pictures of a shot up OBL to want to attack us. You people are real pieces of work. Also, for those that would argue that these pictures could radicalize formerly "moderate" Muslims I think that if a picture could do it just about anything could. LOL! Leftists trying to get in the heads of primitives and reason with them. You're a hoot!
Why couldn't the US government just turn over documents affirming Bin Laden's death to the international tribunal in Den Hague?
I like kate's idea best of all. Should be a excellent solution to the problem and a way to satisfy all.
Things are not looking good for Friday’s jobs report. ADP reported less jobs were created in April than expected by economists. Also the figures are distorted by Mickey D’s 50,000 burger-flipper jobs stunt in April. Then the ISM reports its services sector index took an unexpected drop in April. Barry better enjoy his moment in the sun on Thursday, because he may have some uncomfortable explaining to do about the economy and jobs on Friday.
Service Sector Growth Slows More than Expected
Reuters
| 04 May 2011 | 10:24 AM ET
The pace of growth in the U.S. services sector unexpectedly eased in April, according to an industry report released Wednesday.
The Institute for Supply Management said its services index fell to 52.8 last month from 57.3 in March. That was well below economists' forecasts for 57.4, according to a Reuters survey.
A reading above 50 indicates expansion in the sector.
The report's new orders index tumbled to its lowest level since December 2009, falling to 52.7 from 64.1. The employment gauge dipped to 51.9 from 53.7.
Release the pictures or not, someone will be unhappy about it in the end. I personally wouldn't mind seeing these pictures. It's not that I don't trust the SEALS that did the job. Oh no. Anyone serving overseas has earned huge respect from me; it's Obama I have a hard time trusting.
Anyway, in the mean time I do believe Osama is dead and credit goes to those who coordinated the attack and especially those boys who carried it out, but a certain someone still won't have my vote in 2012 ;-)
Jahmekan
My thoughts exactly. When I first heard and they were speculating that it was a drone all I could think of was that he got off too easily because he didn't see it coming. Then when I heard it was a firefight you knew he saw his death. I just wish they had got the bastard on his knees and put a bullet in the back of his head.
And I'm glad they DUMPED his body in the ocean.
If they release the pics expect to see these college age death celebrators putting them on T-shirts right below "It took Obama to get Osama. In fact expect lots of merchandise like that because it would sel sell sell at the moment.
Also, did Bush or FR mention why he declined the President's invitation? I don't believe they did. Maybe instead of conjecture and cheap shots at the former President you all can just be happy he won't be there since you hate to see him at all.
hhaaahahahaaa hahaha hahahahahahaaa oh man, you looney lefties never fail to make me laugh hahahahaha holy crap I am crying reading this drivel hahahaha I only wish you all had cams on so we could see your monumental stupidity in action, as you sit there in your underwear sweating over the keyboard hahahahahaha losers get a life and a clue hahahahahahaha
All praise to the men and women on the ground, none to the pretender in chief, even with this event he is still the WORST president in history, bar none
Jaime 777,
It's OK Jaime777.... I believe that if Obama had personally donned the military gear, fly into Pakistan, slaughter bin Laden and brought you (personally to your house) his severed head; Obama probably won't get your vote...and you'd demand facial recognition technology, blood and DNA test to confirm that the head he brought you is indeed bin Laden... and after all that, I'm certain you'd still not be 100% you he got him...
...you see Jaime, the problem is not that you rationally do not like Obama or his policies... there's just something about him you don't like.... I doubt you know it or have figured it out..... he probably just rubs you wrong. It's sad, but it's probably true. Good luck though... we live in a different times (where a man named Barack Hussein Obama can be President of the USA)...get used to it.
I am not sure what releasing the photos to the general public will accomplish. If foreign leaders want to see the photos to verify for themselves that bin Laden is really dead, that can be accomplished without a public release. Those in the public that are not convinced that bin Laden is really dead are not going to be convinced by the release of the photos. The same way the birthers still refuse to believe the Obama's birth certificate is real, the fringe will convince themselves that the photos were faked. It will generate a whole host of conspiracy theories as people on the fringe look for "inconsistencies" in the photos. The only thing that releasing the photos to the general public will do, beside satisfying people's morbid curiosity, is inflame bin Laden's supporters and get them even more riled up to seek revenge. It is best to keep the photos under wraps and provide them to foreign leaders that want to see them if/when they are requested.
Question -- It seems that the same people wait in baited anticipation for a First Thoughts forum to appear and they are always the first five or six commenters on this string. Do you have inside knowledge of what and when it will appear? You have to spend the previous day writing your long diatribes with eager anticipation to cut & paste. No one can type that fast. Do you type in one letter and hit post comment to hold your top spots, then cut & paste?
It's almost like you are paid trolls or possibly the same person using different names and email addresses. The monitor of this site should investigate. You need to get a life.
Because you're slow & stupid it's OUR fault HOW?
I see it bothers you enough to spend time to complain - tell me again who needs to 'get a life'?
The world has the right to see the Death Photo’s of Osama Bin Laden
This evil man has killed thousand of people around the world. The Families have the right to see the photo, if they choose to, bring closure for there lost love ones
Ben,
See Post # 2 for your answer. FT appears close to the same time each morning and they jump on and post "XX" to try to obtain the first post. They then spend the alotted edit time pasting in the previously prepared political post. (Ohh nice impromptu alliteration)This is why most of the time their posts are generally about the political atmosphere and only occasionally adress the actual topics of First thoughts directly, usually by accident though if your paying attention you have a pretty good idea what the major topic will be. They aren't paid posters, this is just their main source of interaction and it feels good to know that the majority of people who come here will be reading what you think.
Nice personal attack Feisty!
Where can I go to find out how to request an investigation into the same computers are being used with multiple email addresses? I know it is a violation of the rules.
Ben-636050
FBI, CIA, Special Ops (JSOC/seal team six) perhaps...I hope you know how ludicrous that sounds...
...this is just a blog for crying out loud... you are thinking about it too much; if you want to post first... come here at approximately 9:15AM eastern time and wait for the FT to come up... you don't have to open an investigation here, lol. You are just too funny.
Feisty-
Why should Bush accommodate Odumbazz in any request?
Barry Hussein Obadouchebaga has blamed him for every problem under the sun- This season's devastating tornadoes-? sure, it's his fault according to BHO.
Bush is doing exactly what he should do- let the POS POTUS sink or swim on the merits of his own decisions.
Let this be a warning as to what happens when your tin foil hat is strapped on too tight!
@Tunde -- you are correct, your reply does sound ludicrous. When people confront questions and a request with attacks, then there is generally something to hide. This happened on another newsvine string specifically on Morning Joe. There was several posters -- like here -- that were so similar (the main character was Brad Benson who dropped the race card every time) it was too coincidental. I reported it and it was removed.
Since I have received the responses I have, then I know now I will report the prominent posters here and request a computer ID and email check. Thank you for making my decision easy.
Well Tunde, you are the first one who hasn't tried calling me a racist over my simple opinion, but the condescending and hint at racism tone about my opinion on our President isn't really needed, right? I feel like I am trolling my personal message now lol! Here's the scoop on Jaime ;-) I am a registered Republican, but I registered in January because I turned 18 then. As of late, I wish I was an Independent because both sides lean too far left and right for my taste, and the true followers are crazy about it (makes for some fun reading at least). I do support the Tea Party (oh, here come the Teabagger bashers) but again just like the Republicans and Democrats, some of their ideas and policies are a little too far fetched for my taste. Am I racist? Absolutely not, which is why I find that last bit very amusing. What else... I am a Christian, but I have been raised to be tolerant of other religions and respect them (for those who want to try to say I am a radical for being Christian, you may want to have a chit-chat with my Muslim friends). ;-)
You are absolutely correct about Obama "rubbing" me the wrong way. First impressions are huge and I didn't like his from the get-go. Did I love Bush? No. Do I love Obama? No. Damn, the world ain't perfect and there aren't perfect people out there like some like to claim. Obama has done some things I like, but Bush did also. So far he hasn't awed me like others he has others. I like to keep an open mind. So far he hasn't won me over at all, but that doesn't mean I am automatically going for the Republican nominee either.
To wrap this up I would really appreciate a respectful debate instead of a condescending and rude one. Let's talk like adults here, not children please. The condescending stuff can stay on the playground. :-)
You people are funny. You tout the "birth certificate" as a big victory for Odumba. And I admit, when I saw it, I thought it looked real too. But then some 15 year old kid (and a bunch of others) showed us all how to open the pdf file from Whitehouse.gov using Adobe Illustrator, and what do you think they found? These idiots can't even remember to merge the layers after they tampered with them into one file.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9StxsFllY
So, fast forward to today. We killed the bad guy. Hoorah. Great. Where's the body? We flushed the one piece of tangible evidence, and we are reluctant to even release a photograph. Why? So we don't piss off the enemy. If Mr. Bush came out with a story like this, you'd all be screaming foul.
Sorry, but I don't believe any of it. We've been lied to by our government too many times to believe that this time, with no evidence, it's different. There are a lot of people here who were all over Bush for lying when he was president. I just can't believe you don't see that this guy is doing the same thing, when he's not even as good at it as his predecessor.
Good luck on respectful debate Jaime, that's not really what goes on on First Read. Sometimes it gets started, but it always breaks down quickly into childishness and "Yeah, but your guy......! I am non-party affiliated, and have been since 1999. The problem with that, and it's a big one, is that you have no vote in the Primaries (At least not here in Oregon, I assume that is true everywhere) No say in who either candidate is. All that aside it is good to see you here and engaged in matters. I fear for the majority of your generation.
I could careless how the pictures make muslims feel. I believe that he's dead but I just want to see the pictures. I have no justification for this.
Our President did what he had to do, and that is that. Our navy seals are well trained for this type of mission. They did the DNA test and it should be proof enough that it was OBL. The pictures should not be released as it would only cause problems, from the terrorist, we will have enough of that anyway. This was a job that had to be done and was done. Now is the time to go forewords and prepare for problems not make them and get back to the economy of the country.Republicans and Democrats need to work together on this and stop the back biting and fighting. I would like to see our elected officers start with both parties bringing things to improve the economy and going green, not big business giving out large bonuses , make jobs with that money and pay their fair share of taxes. Stop the loop holes.Good job Mr. President it was a hard decision, you thought it over with all the pros and cons and did the job.
Good luck on respectful debate Jaime, that's not really what goes on on First Read. Sometimes it gets started, but it always breaks down quickly into childishness and "Yeah, but your guy......! I am non-party affiliated, and have been since 1999. The problem with that, and it's a big one, is that you have no vote in the Primaries (At least not here in Oregon, I assume that is true everywhere) No say in who either candidate is. All that aside it is good to see you here and engaged in matters. I fear for the majority of your generation.
Very, very, VERY true Geronimo! It's sad how disrespectful people are on here sometimes. I always tend to find it hilarious how an 18 year old can be more respectful than adults much older than myself ;-)
As for the vote in the primaries - I will definitely have to check that out! It's not something I have heard of here in Nebraska, but thank you for alerting me to it. I may or may not have a vote, but at least I will be finding out very soon. Thank you for that! I too fear for my oblivious generation :-( too many in my graduating class (we graduate on Saturday yay!) don't know half of what is going on in DC. Half of them didn't even understand the government shutdown a few weeks ago or what the Health Care plan meant back when it was passed. It's annoying actually that they are not more involved >:-(
-Oh I don't know if you are a fan or not, but I noticed Oregon in your post and I have family in Eugene so I gotta say it... GO DUCKS!
Mr. President...
Please DO NOT not yield to these short sighted zealots. DO NOT release these pictures, there is no need to. The message has been sent, the data has been captured from his compound. We've one-up'd Bin Ladin, Al-Qaeda, and those complicit A-hole Pakistanis. Hold your ground...
DO NOT release those pics.
This is sadly funny. You are all a bunch of losers. Go get some sun and fresh air will you?
Whether the Pres puts the pics out or not, the extreme muslims jhiadists are still going to try and attack us and the conspiracies will still accumulate, there is no doubt about that. I guarantee you, especially CTdad, that they will either make posters out of the pics we release or they will make one out of the pic that is already out on the internet, (although its fake it looks pretty damn good) to raise high above their hate/kill American training camp walls. Either which way it goes they will burn as many American flags as they can and make every effort to attack us. But I have every bit of faith in our country and service men and women that we will always push back the enemy and defeat them. I say release the pics and let the country finish painting pic that has been in our heads and seeing the fear of God in OBL face as those bullets dispatched the most evil and biggest waist of flesh and air this planet has seen in a long time, just make sure your kids are out of the room when they do. God bless America.
@JH
Let's add to the list for GW Bush.
Invading a sovereign nation that had not attacked us, resulting in
There is a significant difference between using deadly force against the actual responsible parties and invading a country without cause. Oh wait, that's right Saddam had nationalized the oil fields.
HYSTERICAL! We have Ben 63 convinced that there is a conspiracy on First Read to keep him from posting first. And that he doesn't like it that those that he terms "prominent posters" get in on the thread before he does. And that he is coming in on his white horse to fix it, for whom, he does not say. Here is the way it is Ben63, if you want to be first on the thread..post first. Just that simple. No mystery. If you don't like what certain "prominent posters" write, then don't read them, you do have an ignore the author flag that you can use. In any case, this is a simple issue, you don't like to read things that don't agree with what YOU want people to think. So, have at it, do go right to the top, we know the "power" that you think you have, and get back to us on exactly where that gets you. We could all use a good laugh in these troubled times.
I've read so many crackpot theories,Show the pictures,put to rest any doubt.I've seen headshots,they're not for the squeemish,so put them on with a 5 minute prior disclaimer,;"Hey,we're going to show real life,not a video game image". The POS was unarmed,...who cares?...people in WTC were unarmed also.....Pictures might upset some cabdrivers....who cares?..Some of my friends in wheelchairs with one extra shoe would love see the pics.Servicemen and Women who gave up so much time out of thier lives to chase this POS would LOVE to see the pics....I know I would...And some of you are right,The couch-potato politicians from BOTH parties who could never have the balls to be part of this,will always second guess the military...but I guarrantee that BOTH parties will try to spin this into re-election........U.S. Army Disabled Veteran
Lol Ben,
That's just the problem with people like yourself - you believe a 15 yr old kid's youtube video at face value over actual experts.
You believe a college dorm room blogger's model of physics over that of an actual physicist.
You like to think that somehow you are a member of the enlightened, when in reality you are being played like a fiddle - falling for any Joe Schmo's version of 'the truth' so long as it fits your worldview.
Just announced the photos will not be released. You think BO would have learned from the birth certificate. But no. Mark my words this will cause doubt in the eyes of the world. For an obviously intelligent man the President is certainly a dumb sh!t.
This was the smartest thing he could have done to not release the photos....kudos to you Mr. President
Right decision, Mr. President.
Releasing the photo would do NOTHING. It's like Stewart said, we could release the photo with last Sunday's newspaper, Bin Ladens birth certificate, and a shirt that says "No Really, I am Bin Laden. Seriously" . . . and the conspiracy idiots would still find a weird shadow and call it fake.
Jaime 777,
Subtle hint of racism? no, not at all .... I was implying the thing that most republicans have been parrotting for a long time (he's not like us...he's different)... do I think it's because of the color of his skin, no? do I think it's because the president was a democrat... he*l yes.
The republican strategy time and time again has been to severely malign the democrats - as been different, and not American. They've successfully done it well enough that low information voters tend to vote for them... afterall, low information voters don't have time to research facts, but listen to opinion bubble heads like Glenn Beck or Hannity (or even Ed Shultz)... Democrats are now playing that game by calling repubs extreme.... while I find it detestful, it seems to be the only way to argue sensibly (I know, oxymoron) with repubs these days.
So are republicans racist.... not even close, but they've tried to make the president into "he's not one of us, he's different" what could that possibly mean? Let me elucidate, his name is Barack Hussein Obama, he has an African father, raised by single mother, spent time in islamic parts of Indonesia, and oh yeah, he's black- definitely different from us... that's how in a subtle way the repubs have tried to make him seem different, - not for racial hatred, but mere political gains. And it has worked for some on the right... may you?
When you make a statement like "Anyone serving overseas has earned huge respect from me; it's Obama I have a hard time trusting." it's exactly what I expect to hear from someone like Glenn Beck or Hannity. I wont call anyone racist and I'm not hinting it in anyway...it's all on you to decide what you think I meant... just know I didn't bring the r word into it.
Shuklack
Are you really laughing out loud? Why not just say Ha! "LOL" is for little girls.
The 15 year old kid probably is an expert, moron. Is Odumba an expert with Adobe Illustrator. Obviously not. LOL. And where are these alleged "experts" that you reference anyway? Barry's the only person I saw present the birth certificate. We know he'd never lie to us, because he's a Christian, right? LOL.
So Odumba is now a physicist? Did they give him his diploma when he got his Nobel Prize?
And you people believe what they tell you on the news. Well, on FOX they say the Bin Laden is dead. Do you believe them now? LOL. You're right, we don't need any evidence. We don't need to see the body or even pictures of the body. Everyone will believe Odumba. L O L.
HA!
To those who are congratulating Pres Bush for turning down the invitation to join Pres Obama...aren't you just a little bothered by an ex-President appearing so lazy?
I have read in more than one place that Bush has chosen to live a non-public, post presidency life. That is certainly his choice, but, does that mean he no longer feels he should contribute to our country? Ex-Presidents carry a lot of weight...they can use their face, name, experience to make amazing contributions to our society.
Isn't Bush "wasting" the capital he possesses? Shouldn't those that put him in office expect his to use their capital in a better way?
And if your response is, why should he, he was treated so poorly as he left office. He could SO QUICKLY change those minds...and do "good" for our country. I personally find this a sad waste. If he were the guy I had supported I would feel a little ashamed of his behavior.
VermontGirl
Why the hell should President Bush attend a President Obama photo-op? President Bush has far too much class that he would never attend an event for purely political reasons at ground zero. I am ashamed at President Obama's behavior.
JH-479998,
Wow... the outrage.... I bet you if the president didn't go to ground zero, you would also complain.
So the left wing nuts (Including our President) and MSNBC have Major problems with watter boarding someone to find out where OBL is, but have no problem with shooting to death an unarmed OBL who is surronded by 40 Navy Seals. That pretty much shows the hypocrisy , they exhibit.
Ben (numbers) - Please DO request "an investigation" - the moderators are going to hand you your head immediately.
WHY? Because you are:
A. Full of crap;
B. Wrong;
C. Entirely unjustified;
D. Something of a suspicious character yourself.
I know who the people you complain of are - none of us is a paid troll (which you most definitely sound like), we are from all over the country, and often even differ with each other over some aspect or another, don't write alike at all, and absolutely have our own individual email addresses.
Your fit of pique will only serve to embarrass you. Which, given the utter garbage you post, seems like a hard thing to do.
Go for it, pinhead. We'll all enjoy the laugh! Ladies and gents, I give you the jerque du jour - Ben (numbers)!
Vermont girl President Bush did come forward to serve his country again when asked by President Obama during one of those crises in the past 2 years (maybe Haiti), his decision to decline was most likely to allow President Obama to have this moment alone, while the whole investigation and evidence gathering started on President Bush's watch, it came to fruition on President Obama's, so why step on his day and take away from it. It is a little thing called class. Also class for President Obama to invite President Bush also.
John A,
Where am I wrong? Please show us all. You cannot cite one specific thing where I am in error. ABC or D. All of your points are nonsensical bullsh!t.
And bring on your moderators. I don't mind.
Surely you can do better than that, moron.
You can't release photos you don't have. And if your people can't figure out how to make up a birth certificate with Adobe Illustrator,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9StxsFllY
I wouldn't trust them to doctor some photos with photoshop. The guys over at the CIA could probably do it, but then there's a paper trail.
Yes, Mr. President. Don't release the photographs. It is truly the smartest thing you could do.
Ben 16 (numbers) John was talking to Ben 63 (numbers). Almost made the same mistake myself.
Ben-1671313
Shuklack
Are you really laughing out loud? Why not just say Ha! "LOL" is for little girls.
THEN.......
The 15 year old kid probably is an expert, moron. Is Odumba an expert with Adobe Illustrator. Obviously not. LOL. And where are these alleged "experts" that you reference anyway? Barry's the only person I saw present the birth certificate. We know he'd never lie to us, because he's a Christian, right? LOL.
AND
And you people believe what they tell you on the news. Well, on FOX they say the Bin Laden is dead. Do you believe them now? LOL. You're right, we don't need any evidence. We don't need to see the body or even pictures of the body. Everyone will believe Odumba. L O L.
Ben, I guess you are a little girl? I have the name of a good detective agency, that can help with your investigation on those damn people, who just have to get their thoughts in first. Seems like a conspiracy to outshine the rest of us. Can you imagine how early they have to get up, to beat us here?
It's almost like you are paid trolls or possibly the same person using different names and email addresses. The monitor of this site should investigate. You need to get a life.
Poor Ben, has no life but asking someone else to get one. Do you need someone to tell you how to get a life? Do you think you need to take typing classes? Please, please don't run to daddy, we might get spanked.
Just stop whining so much, behave like the good little girl you are and wait your turn.
Fletch,
You are the people who are whining. I'm not. I'm fine. You're not taking my money. I see what you are doing and I'm doing quite well. What's more, I'm not giving you people a dime. You're bleeding others who haven't figured it out yet, but they will eventually. It's going to be fun to watch.
Who is John Galt?
A fictional character who insecure, egotistical jackasses imagine themselves to be. Living in the world of fantasy is so much easier than living in the real world.
It may just be a book, and you may think it's fantasy, but you may also get to see it come true.
My but aren't we self-important. Best of luck in Galt's Gulch, but I wouldn't put good odds on your being missed once gone.
I'm sticking around to watch the show (at least for a while), not that I could possibly care less if I'm missed. You idiots may laugh but the basic story behind the book is already in full swing. You're just too stupid to realize it.
You need proof? The producers, the capitalists, the large corporations aren't just shutting down production, they're doing something much worse (for you). They're leaving, and it started way back with a little thing called NAFTA. They're still making profits (even more with cheap labor). They're just not doing it here. Tax them enough and the rich people will just put their assets where the government (and you) can't get to them. You would too.
Has it ever occured to you, just what do we still produce in this country? Paper money. Other than that, not much. How long do you think that system will last? Not long. Real unemployment is already around 20%. How many more of you will be out of a job before you get upset? My guess is as soon as Odumba quits sending out the checks. Socialism won't last long without Capitalism to skim money from.
So you can laugh John, and you too Fletch. You are the ones who are living in a fantasy world. I am laughing too, (not with you), but at you and your socialist buddies.
Ben-1671313
Fletch,
You are the people who are whining. I'm not. I'm fine. You're not taking my money. I see what you are doing and I'm doing quite well. What's more, I'm not giving you people a dime. You're bleeding others who haven't figured it out yet.
Please see a DR for your delusion, that's a much better way to spend your dime.
You're funny Fletch. Enjoy the new economy.
There you have it, full display of the Conservative mindset--only the wealthy are important, the rest of us are just overpriced labor, waiting and deserving to be driven down to the same wage level as Malaysia, China, or wherever the Robber Barons can get labor even cheaper. It's a future of unimaginable wealth for the lucky few, unimaginable squalor for everyone else.
Anyone else recognize or want to live in that America?
I say let the rich leave. Make them take their corporations with them, then when they try to sell products to the US tariff the hell out of them. Meanwhile, back here in the US, We have plenty of capable people just waiting for the chance to expand their businesses and/or move up in their fields. With all these record profits being posted, im sure there are alot of smaller business willing to hire to fill the need.
Business that outsource need to have tariffs put on them until they bring their workforce back to the US. We are a society of consumers and anyone who doesnt recognize our collective buying power is a fool. These rich SOB's need us more than we need them.
Some probably are, the other half get paid to not work.
Actually, that's the course we are on. Enjoy.
That's rich.
This one's even better. They already have moved their corporations, moron. That's why we don't make anything here anymore.
in the unemployment line.
Yes, everything is great. The economy is booming. It's a beautiful day. Unemployment is at 20%.
Yeah, tax those evil rich bastards until they come back. Anybody see a flaw with this theory?
You actually hit on part of the problem but you're too stupid to realize it. We are a society of consumers. We used to be a society of producers. Now we pay lazy people to not work.
Uh, no. They don't. Once you kill the goose that laid the golden egg, you're not going to get any more eggs.
Actually you've said something correct for once, you just don't know that you're looking at the world hanging upside down. The Ayn Rand fantasy panders to the wealthy by calling them "Producers" and by calling the people who actually do the work "Takers." In reality the success of America for over 100 years has been a vibrant middle class who earn enough to substantially support the economy. The future you and other Rand fantasists are so excited about would destroy the very people you see as "Producers" in the end by impoverishing the middle class engine of the economy. We already see the effects as bounce back from the past 2 recessions has been very slow. Once the vast majority of Americans become so poor they can do little more than huddle in tar paper shacks and keep themselves alive with beans--as you advocate--the entire economy collapses because there aren't enought consumers to keep it afloat. A handful of very wealthy will still be around but there won't be as many and they won't be as wealthy as they are now.
Then a revolution will kill them.
See, that's the genius of the American system. By balancing Capitalism with a reasonable level of regulation we've allowed the free market to work its magic while minimizing the heartbreak and inevitable stability that comes from an intensely polarized society.
Too bad the current generation of wealthy doesn't realize that, being too self-centered to realize that they really AREN'T the only important people on Earth.
The "Producers" are the wealthy capitalists, and the workers. They actually should be on the same side. The fact that they are not is a huge problem.
The "takers" are government and people who are on welfare who shouldn't be.
I don't advocate it. I'd like to avoid it.
There will always be haves and have nots. Those with guns and those without guns, with food, and without. The wealthy who are intelligent see the writing on the wall, and are preparing.
Revolutions kill a lot of people, mostly innocent bystanders. Not many rich people, unless they happen to be French.
That's how it used to work. Now we can't even make light bulbs anymore. The Dems and Repubs got together with the environmentalists and exported all light bulb manufacturing to China, who is having a field day. And we are as polarized as we have ever been.
Nah. Too bad the current Congress doesn't realize redistributing wealth, over regulation, and deficit spending are flushing this country down the socialist toilet. The current generation is screwed.
Just saw a death picture of Bin Laden. Two rounds, one in the chin and one above the left eye. The death picture made it's way around troop circles and I so happen to know someone in one of those circles.
Ben-
This tells me all I need to know about your intelligence. Just because a corporation moves their factories and workforce over seas, doenst mean that the company is no longer a US company. Why is that? Because their corporate headquarters are still here. Keep spewing your lies, no one believes you.
SmallbrainPete,
So you're saying it's good for our economy for all the manufacturing jobs to leave the country? So white collar jobs will be fine (for a while), and screw the blue collar workers. Are you a democrat?
Keep showing your intelligence. We need a good laugh.
Wow you really are stupid because thats the complete opposite of what im saying. Maybe you need to go back to school because your reading comprehension skills are terrible.
What you so obviously fail to realize is that a company that ships its jobs overseas pays corporate income taxes in the US, which are the lowest in the world! Companies are allowed to put thier corporate headquarters here and move their factories anywhere so they get both cheap labor and the best tax breaks.
If you havent noticed im against this. I say any corporation outsourcing needs to be treated as an international company and needs to be tarriffed. The Tarriff should collate with the size of the workforce of that company. This will force them to move their labor back to the US or lose our corporate tax breaks. Thus either returning the workforce or leaving space for a new US company to be created and compete for those consumers.
This shows my point on how uniformed you are. My view had absolutely nothing to do with taxing them until they come back. THEY NEVER LEFT! Do you know the difference between a tax and a tarriff? Actually I really dont care if you do or not, im done trying to teach people things they could easily learn but are too lazy to do. Funny how you wanna call the american people lazy but you cant even comprehend our government or economy.
This shows yet again how uniformed you are. Democrats are the blue collar workers, well except for the retarded ones that are middle class republicans.
SmallbrainPete,
Man you are stupid.
How exactly did you come to this conclusion? Where did I fail to realize that corporations are going to do what ever they can to maximize profits and pay as little tax as possible. Duh. Are you an idiot or just stupid?
No it won't. It will just encourage them to move their corporate headquarters out of the country also to a place like Germany or Iceland where the taxes are actually lower than here. By the way, they can accomplish this with a post office box, and plenty of them are doing it already. This shows how unimformed you are.
So if you're a blue collar worker, you're automatically a Democrat and if you're a white collar worker, you're automatically a Republican. I asked you if you were a Democrat because you're an idiot, so I naturally made the connection. And please insult the Republicans some more. When are you idiots going to realize there are more than two parties? I am a member of neither.
This is hilarious. Where did you fail to realize that your contradicting yourself?
SO which one is it? Did they already move their corporations or are they going to?!?! Or are you just wanting to jump back and forth to which ever suits your arguement best?
Then you try putting words in peoples mouths like every other idiot that plays the "Im not republican or democrat". I really dont care if admit you are republican or not. If your on the side of corporate america, your with the republicans(thats who pays their bills).
This is how bad you are at reading comprehension. Did I not say that there are blue collar workers that are republicans? Convienient of you to leave that out. I really dont like liars, and for you to try and insuate that I claim all blue collar workers as dems is pretty much a lie unless you really dont understand. Either way its pathetic and if it continues this conversation is going to end real quick.
Again how uniformed you are. Maybe you should actually check the corporate tax rates of the countries your talking about retard. Dont worry I have already had similar discussions and know that again your lying or stupid. There are only two countries in the world that offer a low end tax rate of 0%, guess who one of them is?!?!? Give up? The United States.
0-35% is our Corporate tax rate for fed and 0-12% for the state.
ICELAND 18-26% GERMANY 29.8%
If you want a lower tax than your suggestions (so next time you can sound like you know what your talking about)
Albania 10%
Bulgaria 10%
Chile 17%
Cyprus 10%
Gibraltar 10%
Guatamala 5% of revenue or 31% of income
Hong Kong 16.5%
That should get you started. I would also suggest you check out what happens when corporations leave the US. What are the advantages of being a US company? What was the corporate tax rate 30 years ago? Also if you interested in how low our corporate taxes have fallen, why dont you take a look at Ronald Reagan's Treasury Secretary. I mean we were the biggest producers post WWII, the middle class was thriving. Then in the early 80's somehting started changing, and corporate america got its hands on the best ad guy money could buy.
It is hilarious, but I get it. I suppose if you have a small brain, you could be thoroughly confused by my statement. So let me clarify it for you.
Raise taxes here, corporations will leave. Sometimes the manufacturing jobs are first. Sometimes corporations just move the manufacturing offshore without the corporate staff, and use a post office box in Switzerland. Sometimes they move the whole thing. None of these scenarios are good or necessary. But feel free to find out the hard way. Are you the only person in the country who hasn't noticed that there aren't many manufacturing jobs here anymore? Really? I'm sure it's someone else's fault.
And where do you get your figures?
I did, retard. I'd love to know how to get in on the 0% tax you claim is so readily available. That must be for those who are politically connected, because my corporation pays higher rates. Much higher. And according to this graph, the rate for the U.S. is 39%. Germany is 30% and Iceland is 20%. Only Japan is higher at 39.5%. But we would all still like to hear how some are getting 0%.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/26/56/33717459.xls
So you're one of those idiots that is still whining about Ronald Reagan? And you say that his treasury secretary is somehow responsible for our rates today? They can't find a way to change the rates more to your liking since Reagan? Which secretary would that be? Regan, Baker or Brady? Are you sure it's not Bush's fault?
No, I read what you said and my reading comprehension is working fine. You called them the retarded ones that are middle class republicans. I even quoted you. Why is it when you people are wrong over and over, the last thing you do is start calling others names? Pathetic.
Why is it every time I waste my time with one of you idiots I feel like I've been given an assignment for a book report? Not anymore. Do your own research.
Well done, STP. When they start to call you names you've made some real points.
Here's some research for you;
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/08/12/us-usa-taxes-corporations-idUSN1249465620080812
Exactly how much lower than ZERO to corporate taxes have to go before they'll start producing some jobs? Enough with the fairy tale of Supply Side economics...it failed.
Heres the funny part, im not a blue collar worker, I have my own office which is how im able to post through out the day. My father and grandfather were though. Its funny how on these forums everyone acts like im an unemployed lazy druggie that is a drain on socitey and looking for my next hand out. When in all reality im the middle class guy paying the tax burden so corporations can make billions more profit that way they dont leave the US, all while our debt soars.
Did you not read the exlpanatory notes? It tells you that where progressive (as opposed to flat) rate structure applies, the top marginal rate is shown. Did you go to oecd and get the graph? Did you not notice the small business graph right below the one you posted? Different businesses fall into different categories.
Check out those corporate rates for small businesses. See the difference in the US? Another tid bit I wanted to share was about Germany. Its the right of workers to be represented on the boards of companies for whom they work. The German model involves half the board of directors being appointed by the company trade union. Do you think any corporation leaving the US is going to submit to laws like that?! Who do you think is trying to get rid of the unions here in the US? Most countries dont just let huge corporations walk in and start running things, that only happens in the US.
Let me know what you think about the correlation between corporate taxes, income taxes, and how much they account for the total revenue.
"We're gonna turn The Bull losse" Ronald Reagan commenting on wall street.
I find it interesting that at certain times in the last 30 years even though making record profits, companies had mass layoffs to create short term profits while crippling unions at the same time. Then they get the govt to provide more cuts for corporations resulting in even higher profits. The remaining workers were told to work harder and over this time increased production 45%, while wages for this same working class that increased productivity remained within 1%. Instead of being paid a decent wage, the blue collar workers were incouraged to depend on borrowed money to cover expenses and now household debt has grown to over 100% of GDP.
All the while blue collar jobs pay stayed within 1%...... Man I wish I lived in the 50's and 60's talk about the american dream. Now those on the right claim that we are in debt due to trying to live beyond our means. Well how come my grandfather worked (DANA) while my grandmother stayed at home with the family? My grandmother said she could have worked but they didnt need to because grandpa made enough (corporate taxes were something like 90% i think?) In todays world, both parents work and still have trouble making ends meet. Now that Dana has gone bankrupt after the whole auto industry fiasco, his retirment and medical benefits could run out. My father has no money saved, Im paying off school loans, so what happens if something goes wrong? Thank the govt for SS and medicare, oh wait that wont be there for me LOL.... and life goes on.
XX
Yes Folks, They Went There is it Palliative?
There will be differences of opinions abound; but releasing the photo should be a calmative factor no matter who does or does not want to see the photo.
Glenn Beck just couldn't resist. Even as he is giving credit to the President, he says "Kill Obama...
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/yes-folks-glenn-beck-went-there
Also, Judge Andrew Napolitano decided to go there.
It didn’t take long for the praise of President Obama to end. Last night Judge Andrew Napolitano agreed that it was good for the monsterOsama bin Laden to have been taken out; however, he also warned that Obama killed something that will make our world much more dangerous. The rule of law also died at the hands of Obama, according to Napolitano, and as a result, he feared who Obama might kill next.
Napolitano noticed the joy and unity around the country and claimed he hopes there isn’t too much of it, since:
“The same President who ordered the killing of bin Laden also wants to borrow trillions of your dollars that your children and grandchildren will need to repay so as to finance his welfare and warfare state. The same President also authorized missiles and drones that killed Libyan dictator Gaddafi’s infant grandchildren last weekend. . . President Obama, with an eye on his lagging poll numbers and the sickening economy over which he presides.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/judge-napolitano-on-bin-laden-is-obama-pulling-a-fast-one-to-save-lousy-presidency/
Fox's Napolitano Wonders If Gov't. Is "Telling The Truth" About Bin Laden Or "Pulling A Fast One To Save Obama's Lousy Presidency"
May 02, 2011 11:13 pm ET
times.com/news/local/la-me-0504-dalai-lama-20110504,0,7229481.story
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201105020016
Since the Obama story of Osama Bin Laden's body keeps changing, primarily at FOX, why is Fox News not getting Ronald Reagan more credit for the killing of Osama Bin Laden?
After all, Ronald Reagan was a tough guy too like the other presidents, Clinton and GW Bush FOX NEWS mentions as being responsible for laying the foundation to get Osama Bin Laden
Many people are struggling with the identification of Osama Bin Laden's body. When the White House releases the photo of Bin Lama how soothing will the body of evidence give regardless of whether it's believed or not?
I agree, we do NOT need to see pictures of the body. Remember the photos of Dillinger? These images take on a life of their own, and don't serve to "prove" anything.
Bev:
Very true. Has anybody noticed that President Bush is not the one asking for any credit of taking out OBL? It is the GOP/TP people that are trying to make a case, albeit a very weak one, that President Bush deserves the credit. It is the GOP/TP that is trying to divide the country again with their post exercise rhetoric.
This is what happens when you are the party that has nothing to offer the American People in the upcoming election. You start grasping at imaginary straws.
Since crazy people are by definition, CRAZY, it is unreasonable to expect that any amount of evidence will convince them that Bin Laden is dead. Let's quit catering to the lowest in our communities.
US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired
Bev:
Very true. Has anybody noticed that President Bush is not the one asking for any credit of taking out OBL? It is the GOP/TP people that are trying to make a case, albeit a very weak one, that President Bush deserves the credit
Thanks Navy,
I have to be partisan here. GW Bush deserves no credit since he paid Afghanistan interlocutors at Tora Bora.
Special Forces troops recruited two of his former commanders. They made an unlikely couple: Hazarat Ali and Hajji Zaman. The former, with just a fourth-grade education, was barely literate, a bully and unrefined; the other was a wealthy drug smuggler, fluent in English and French, and a polished raconteur who was lured back to Afghanistan from his exile in France by the United States. Both were schemers who had come of age on the battlefields of the anti-Soviet war
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?pagewanted=2
So, through a series of intermediaries and then directly, Hajji Zaman made radio contact with some of bin Laden's commanders and offered a cease-fire. The Americans were furious. The negotiations - to which Hazarat Ali acquiesced since he, too, was now holding secret talks with Al Qaeda - continued for hours. By the time they came to an end, Hajji Zaman's interlocutor, hidden somewhere in the caves above, was probably bin Laden's son Salah Uddin. If the Qaeda forces surrendered, Hajji Zaman's contact said, it would be only to the United Nations. Then he requested additional time to meet with other commanders. He would be back in touch by 8 the following morning, the younger bin Laden said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?pagewanted=4
Tora Bora was the one time after the 9/11 attacks when United States operatives were confident they knew precisely where Osama bin Laden was and could have captured or killed him.
Defending its decision not to commit forces to the Tora Bora campaign, members of the Bush administration - including the president, the vice president and Gen. Tommy Franks - have continued to insist, as recently as the last presidential campaign, that there was no definitive information that bin Laden was even in Tora Bora in December 2001. "We don't know to this day whether Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora," Franks wrote in an Oct. 19, 2004, Op-Ed article in The New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/11TORABORA.html?pagewanted=5
=========================================
Bush outsourced the chance to get Bin Laden . Obama didn't. But for unity Bush should be there
A disturbing proportion of the ultra-right Tea Party movement originates from the old anti-government militia movement. This faction has long been convinced that the Feds are simply biding their time before swooping down in the infamous black helicopters to take them out.
Judge Napolitano's insane, absurd remarks feed directly into that paranoia.
Fox News is more and more a collection of gutter scrapings.
Amy, there is a belief that the photos of Dillinger prove the wrong man was killed.
Steve Doocy On Release Of Bin Laden Picture: "If You Don't Show The Face, Then...Who's To Say What Was In That Bag?"
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201105040005
=========================================
My question to Doocy, the other dunce , and dumb Bleached Blond is-- How would you three know unless Rupert Murdord says it is?
Besides that, how 'bout you three looking for a brain instead of crazy @aa conspiracy theories?
Whether the WH releases the photo or not makes no difference to me. There's good and bad to release and good and bad not to release. Obviously, those who believed OBL to be a hero will make a martyr of him regardless but it won't be the photos that cause retaliation, it will be the fact that we killed him. I did hear a Muslim woman guest on Ed's show last night. She expressed that many in the Arab world have been told he was dead before, they fear him and that they need to see proof OBL is really dead. If you noticed there was not much outrage expressed in the middle east, OBL gave Muslims and the Islamic faith a bad name. I also heard an expert say that a photo of his body being handled with respect to Muslim burial rites should also be released.
Not at all -- this has been my position, and the position of any rational American, since the news broke.
Par. NeoCons are still trying to smokescreen how awful the eight years prior to Obama was. Am I a fan of Obama? Not even remotely. But, in comparision to Bush, Obama is doing a pretty fair job.
And here we get to the meat of it: WHO CARES? Let them toss and turn and beat their chests. It doesn't change the fact that, even if it isn't true, the rest of the world thinks it's true and lends credence to "don't f*ck with America. We WILL get you, sooner or later." After all, it's always been about appearances, right?
Trailerpark generals, down to the very last one of them.
Whole different topic: reinstitute fair and balanced laws Congressionally. A lot of the crap we see on the TV -- and on MSNBC or FOX "discussion" threads -- diminish.
All things considered, I think a person would get more bang for their buck watching one of the Saws movies or doing a google search for headshot photos.
Did you expct less?
NAVY...you must have hit your head when you were in the shower with that soap on a slipknot rope...
Navy, arguably the best comment I have ever read here, thanks.
Thank Navy Well said.
I was on the fence yesterday, when someone mentioned that President Obama should invite George Bush to Ground Zero tomorrow and wasn't sure why...
Then I heard the news last night that 'W' didn't want to go because he wants to keep his Presidency out of the 'spotlight'!
Understandably so... lol
In the meantime, here's another shining example of President Obama doing the right thing by extending his hand and 'W' giving him the FINGER!
AGAIN!
To ALAN, NJ----
Your observatio below is not quite accurate.
"President Obama is a different person than candidate Obama now that he sees things from the other side. "
Candidate Obama said unequivocally that if he had "actionable intelligence" he would "kill UBL". That was in the debate with John McCain in 2008 when both Republicans and Democrates chided him for being naive.
I like that naivete!
On the matter of the photo's - does it really matter?
President Obama will be damned if he DOES & damned if he DOESN'T
If he doesn't, the bat sh!t crazy crowd will NEVER let it rest...
If he does, and there's backlash from the Muslim world, the same nuts will become the I TOLD YOU SO crowd
More for the cable channels to shred him with!
Personally, I have no desire to see them, I am well aware though, that there is a certain element that get's off on stuff like THAT!
Same worn out tired game of 'Pin the BLAME on Obama'!!!
I think what the most disgusting thing about all of this is that Fox and even MSNBC are so friggin bias it makes me sick. Just the facts mam, just the facts, that's all we need. Its all one big spin factory and real news doesn't exist anymore. Its all about PR and copy and past spin. The Ed Show, O'Riley Factor, Glenn Beck and The Last Word are on the top of that bias list, even though they say they are not. OBL is dead, lets focus on defending this country and making it great once again. Everyone who gets their feelings hurt when someone says something they don't like needs to get over it, this entire PC thing makes things worse not better. What they should've done with OBL body was, after taking ample evidence of his death, was to tie him on a buoy in the ocean and have target practice with a 50 cal. until all that was left the sharks finished off.
For all of those who don't believe President Bush deserves congratulations and credit also, remember this all started 4 years ago, the gathering of evidence which lead to UBL's death, so yes he does. And for all of you liberals, you don't have to take my word for it, take Nancy Pelosi's who called to congratulate President Bush for his part in this entire affair. Spin that.
BTW I take nothing away from President Obama, It was a gutsy call, if this op went sour, he would be toast for okaying. Best decision he has made to date, and that is meant as a compliment not some backhanded attack as some might want to say.
Feisty, President Obama showed some class by inviting President Bush to the Ground Zero event. President Bush showed class by declining the invitation as this is Obamas moment. I am sure you haven't realized yet that despite everyone seemingly piling on Obama, one hasn't President Bush has said nothing because as he said that job is tough enough without a previous President offering his comments. Again class. By the way Nancy Pelosi, no fan of President Bush called to congratulate President Bush for his part in the op which took over 4 years of evidence gathering. Now I know it isn't in you but couldn't you show a little class like your liberal icons have. While not a big fan of President Obama, I don't make fun of his name or his family or any other of the constant name calling that you have a penchant for doing, I do give him mega kudos for a very gutsy call on the raid by SEAL team 6 to get Osama. He could have declined because if this op had blown up in his face he would be toast, so yes gutsy and brave call.
Steve Doocy On Release Of Bin Laden Picture: "If You Don't Show The Face, Then...Who's To Say What Was In That Bag?"
Bev in Chicago Did you see the original broadcast it's called sarcasm. He was not saying bin laden wasn't in the bag, however there are those conspiracy theorists who will. And if you get your info from mediamatters well then you are just plain stupid, it is like republicans who get their information solely from Rush Limbaugh, they are stupid too. Sheeesh. Both are way out there. C'mon you should be better than that. BTW you know President Bush had a larger part in this as the evidence chain started on his watch 4 years ago. Even Nancy Pelosi agrees as she called to thank him for his part. From what I have seen you are strictly partisan much like others, it's my way or no way and that goes for both sides.
The big Os first trip to ground zero? wtf?
Sadly, some people enjoy wearing tinfoil hats.
Still no mention of Canada today...Spanky's gonna be pissed!
And what purpose did the video of the execution of Saddam serve in this country (can't speak for Iraqis) except to disgust people. It isn't revenge we were really looking for, it was justice.
You mean this, noid?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadavotes2011/story/2011/05/02/cv-election-main.html
Want to hear something really weird? Late last week, the left in Canada was buoyed by polls that seemed to show the electorate trending their way.
Turned out their losses were greater than any polls had predicted.
You don't suppose there was something funny about the weighting, do you?
There has been too many inconsistenciesfrom the US Government to NOT release the photos. Trust me, I wish that the examples of Watergate, Pat Tillman, etc didn't happen. But, given a little time, they should be released. And, as to anger towards the US, I could cite plenty of other things from BEFORE last week. I doubt this would be a straw to break any camel's back. Perhaps not the best metaphor right now, but.....
WHODMANN
Why bait a mob by publishing the photos? Don't forget the innocent people who died in Afghanistan after that bogus "minister" burned the Koran. Publish his DNA if you must, but not the photos of the dead body.
Amy B. Portland, ME
WHODMANN
Why bait a mob by publishing the photos? Don't forget the innocent people who died in Afghanistan after that bogus "minister" burned the Koran. Publish his DNA if you must, but not the photos of the dead body.
Exactly, Amy
That's my point. These rebel rousers have no sensitivity
Does it really matter, they are still going to kill simply because we killed Osama. They don't need any photos, except those some idiot will photoshop onto the internet, they know the details buried at sea, shot while unarmed in the head and chest, his wife (one of them) shot in the leg unarmed to start a riot. They don't need any photos since his daughter (12) said he surrendered and was then shot. That isn't true but those morons don't care, it is the rallying call for jihad and revenge.
no way in hell should they ever release these photos. The military will take the brunt of this decision to appease people who do not matter.
I do not care to see the photos and I went looking for the man almsot 10 years ago. jsut knowing he is dead is good enough.
If one military service man or woman dies than it is one too many.
His body was dumped at sea so not make a martyr site or pilgrimage, and that was very smart.
But releasing the photos will just inspire more people to join the cuase or re-knew an effort to kill more innocent people.
STOP BEING SELFISH PEOPLE (PUNDITS) AND JUST TAKE COMFORT HE IS DEAD.
Yeah, because if we don't release the photographs nobody is EVER going to shoot at our troops, right?
Keith22:
I agree. Currently it just is not necessary so why take the risk of stirring up a hornets nest. Let it lie and see how it plays out.
This Just In...
The people who are going to be infuriated by the release of a photo of a dead bin Laden are ALREADY pissed at us!
The people who are might be inspired to commit an act of terrorism because of the release of a photo of a dead bin Laden are ALREADY inspired to do so!
Osama bin Laden sleeps with the fishes. release the photo and let's prove to the world that we do not lie.
I agree Keeth, in fact I also believe that this brings a focus on the Navy SEALs that isn't justified as well. They went in, they did their job, they did it well. For the rest of us to sit out here questioning if they did it right is...wrong.
well then Da noid why not pick up a weapon and stand a post in Afghanistan and in fact have the photo of the dead bin laden stapled on your forehead, and see how relevant your comment is then.
And when you say "our troops" you mean me and I do not support the release of the photo, so it's best you say service members because my fellow troops realize the consequences of releasing the photos even if you fail to.
I very rarely say this because it is very very disrespectful and everyone should have thier opinion heard, but for you Keep you piehole shut.
Yeah, no kidding. We entered a sovereign country, killed the leader of leaders of terrorism, dragged his body to a helicopter, and threw his body in the sea. A death photo of this perp isn't going make them any more po-ed about the deal. Besides, this crew of misfits is in a perpetual state of of being po-ed, so a photo won't add anything more to their hatred.
At last we smoke JS1 out: she wants to offer support and comfort to our enemies! My goodness, JoAnna, even you, with your irrational hatred of our President can't be so far gone that you have that amount of sympathy for the enemies of our nation. Do take a day off, dear, and get some help for that.
No, thank you, I believe I shall continue speaking as I see fit.
Hear, hear! DN, you speak your mind as you see fit.
I'd give you a little respect if did something else than talk.
I am going back to afghanistan next month (I was supposed to go in February but medical issues delayed me), and while you are still enjoying the freedom be a "talker", I will be doing my small part to make the world a better place. I have to think of all the people that come under me and my care and do my best they get home safely.
Speak all the ideology you want but that is not goign to stop the bad guys.
Then, sir, let this "talker" wish you well.
Thank you for your wishing me well. That I can most certainly agree with.
Keeth22
I am going back to afghanistan next month (I was supposed to go in February but medical issues delayed me), and while you are still enjoying the freedom be a "talker", I will be doing my small part to make the world a better place. I have to think of all the people that come under me and my care and do my best they get home safely.
Keeth22 On behalf of the denizens of the DDI and the Hill Folk we would like to wish you good luck and a little prayer for your safe return to the folks at home that you know and love so well. Godspeed sir and please keep us on your list of folks that want to know that your home and safe when your deployment is done.
I stated yesterday and today.
As I have heard it said before and it looks like this quote would apply to the misinformed people the right who don’t care much for our GREAT President Obama.
“You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.”
Keith22:
My prayers go with you my friend. God Speed, stay safe and be well. Again I thank you for your service and sacrifice and pray you come home safe and soon.
The US Military Rules. God Bless them all.
Obama the riverboat gambler, rolling the dice on a high risk operation and coming out winners. Obama the international cowboy, brazenly disregarding the sovereignty of a foreign nation and unilaterally doing what had to be done. Obama the judge and jury, showing equal disregard for legal niceties (real or imagined) and unleashing his kill team to do their dirty deed. Wow, I might be starting to like this guy, where the heck has he been??
Yet even as most of us on the right applaud his accomplishment, we also note the irony of the anti-Bush using decidedly Bush-like tactics in order to rid the world of a piece of crap. Maybe it has something to do with the ends justifying the means. So it should be amusing to see the president's response to the United Nations human rights folks who are asking for details about bin Laden's killing. They're making the point that all counter-terrorism operations must respect international law, so maybe Holder will need to jump in and cover his boss's back on that one.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm really pleased the president did what he did – did what he had to do. But I am looking forward to how the leftist loons around here will rationalize how their man is looking more and more like Bush every day. How they will reconcile the recipient of a Nobel Peace Prize with the man who ordered the assassination of bin Laden. How they will reconcile the man who preached about the sanctity of American values in calling for the closure of Gitmo, with the man who dispensed with any semblance of due process and just flat out killed Bad Guy #1. Well, maybe some vermin just don't deserve due process and Holder might have to help out his boss on that one too.
I could make it a bit easier for my friends on the left, but they won't want to hear the truth. Because the truth is that when it comes to the war on terror, Obama isn't a Boy Scout anymore. He's learned on the job that this war is very real and requires brutal resolve in order for us to prevail. See the sharp increase in drone attacks in Pakistan. See the troop surge in Afghanistan. See the reauthorization of the Patriot Act. See the take no prisoners approach to dealing with (an unarmed) bin Laden. Heck, one of these days the president might even see fit to opine that there's a Muslim problem in the world.
I won't be holding my breath for that one, but I will give this man his due: the operation to take out bin Laden was appropriately ruthless and highly effective. If it wasn't for the economy and that darn HCR thing, this guy might actually have a chance to be reelected. But I won't be holding my breath for that either.
You deserve a Nobel Prize for being a pin head!
Bill, Fairfax, VA - Once again, excellent comments.
Bill, again as you sum it up, combating terrorism is difficult work with hard choices, and no clear path to victory. On the campaign trail, Obama sounded oh so good (To Liberals and the media. I know, same thing) with his "Close Gitmo" and "I'm against waterboarding", and "We need to be conciliatory and take a lower profile towards our friends in the Middle-East" rhetoric. Now Obama is sending in death squads to sovereign countries to kill terrorist leaders, starting wars and picking sides in civil wars in the region, and using information collected by "any means necessary" to conduct those wars.
Obama was slow on the uptake in beginning, but it looks like he's caught up. He's certainly making a believer out of folks like Dick Cheney.
I can't think of a president in the last forty five years that has not sent the military into soreviegn nations. Cuba, Iran, Grenada, Panama, Serbia, Somalia, whatever Bill.
Who do you think is going to beat him in the next election?
Who ever the Republican nominee is. The 2012 election will be a referendum on Obama's 4 years, and he will get some mileage out of getting bin Laden, but it all boils down to how the economy is doing, and it's not doing well. The country will be ready for a Change.
Bill and JoAnna:
It is really sticking in your collective craw that the Obama Administration found bin Laden and had him dead and buried all before ya'll had a chance to get your talking points straight, ain't it?
I'm loving it.
The President is "more like Bush", huh?
Tell me, other than leaving two open ended, unfunded wars and a lot of pissed off Muslims to babysit down at Gitmo, what is it exactly that President Bush did that President Obama is emulating?
Do tell.
P.S. Funny to see the same conservatives who were deathly afraid to have Muslims tried in U.S. courts and held in U.S. prisons, the same ones who were afraid to have a Muslim community center near Ground Zero, now try to clam the mantle of bravery for themselves. You folks have been running scared for years now, don't try to pretend like nobody is emulating ya'lls scared arses now.
Yeah, I said it.
remember Bush #1 in 1991, drove Saddam out of Kuwait and we were all riding high, then he lost the election less than 2 years later, we are in the same situation. It is all about what the economy is doing in 18 months. OBL will be out of our minds.
Hmmm... Now where have I heard THAT before?
Oh! I know - didn't the baggers & birthers along with the MSM tell us it was ALL about jobs and the economy?
And, if THEY were elected they'd wave a magic wand and miraculously solve all of the problems facing the country?
6 months later they haven't done SQUAT other than pissing off the people that were snookered into voting for them...
Change is indeed a coming darling - just NOT the change you believe in! ;o)
Alan NJ:
In regards to your comment on thread one:
I stand by my comment on #1.0. There are GOP/TP people claiming that Our President has violated the rights of a mass murderer in taking him out. OBL forfeited any rights when that first plane hit the twin towers.
So, Bill, what country did President Obama bomb, invade and occupy in pursuit of bin Laden? I usually find some sense in your posts but what I read today is sour grapes and an attempt to paint President Obama in a negative light to justify Bush's approach. What took place Sunday is what Presidents do; they must lead and make tough decision, often unpleasant decisions. Thankfully, no matter how much the conservatives try to make President Obama into a Bush-like caricature, Obama is absolutely nothing like Bush.
Incidentally, President Obama never claimed to be a boy scout--apparently, you missed the 2nd presidential debate with John McCain when Candidate Obama said he would find, capture or kill OBL even if the country where he was hiding would not cooperate. McCain said Candidate Obama was naive and didn't understand foreign policy.
History has shown that to be true in the past, especailly with Bush I back in '92. People vote kitchen table issues, and unless the economy recovers, and it doesn't look like it will any time soon now with gas prices and inflation occurring, next year is going to be a difficult campaign for Obama.
Spending like a Drunken Sailor
FISA / Patriot Act
Going Beyond the authorization of a UN Resolution
Rendition
Indefinite Incarceration
Unilateralism
Unfunded Tax Cuts
It's going to be an even MORE difficult campaign for what ever right wing Whack Job who manages to snag the nomination!
PS: Good to know the RNC talking point/flavor of the day is the 'economy' thanks for sharing JoAnna!
Alan, NJ: Certainly the euphoria from getting bin Laden will cover up the fact that Obama is acting just like Bush. As time marches on, there really won't be much to differentiate the two of them.
It boils down to why the economy is not doing so good.
Republicans only answer is cut your pay, cut your benefits, cut your services, to provide more tax breaks for business. They need to be encouraged to continue posting the biggest quarterly profits the world has ever seen. Got to give incentives to the oil companies, otherwise who would want to make 38 billion a quarter. We have to sweeten the pot with subsidies, or they might just quit the oil business. These are the big ideas that are going to put 11 million people to work?
After getting Bin-Laden, and the Ryan plan, all Obama would have to do now is send a drone to take out an abortion clinic and everybody on the right (except the birthers )would vote for him.
Good morning Alan! :o)
If I'm not mistaken, all of that "drunken spending" you are constantly bemoaning was necessitated by the misguided policies you are still here advocating on the daily.
I am sorry that you are upset that the President didn't hold an international committee meeting to get permission to kill the self avowed mastermind of 9-11, but something tells me that you will get over it! :o)
You bemoan "indefinite incarceration", but can you do that and then put up road blocks to try the folks being indefinitely held?
You bemoan unilateralism, but can you do that and then say the President doesn't believe in "American exceptionalism"?
The UN Resolution was with NATO, not the U.S. . . so maybe you want to forward your letter of complaint to them.
And it is curious to see all the moaning about "unfunded tax cuts" after you voted twice to elect the person who came up with that brilliant idea.
The United States of America will always do what is required to keep our citizens safe, with or without permission. The difference is, you can do that effectively, or you can do that ham handedly (see Abu Ghareb).
So yeah, Alan. . . President Obama is giving a Master's Class on how you KICK BUTT and ASK QUESTIONS LATER.
Be sure you are taking notes.
If that's the case then I would disagree with them. However, I do not think that Bill is one of them, or that is the argument he is making. He is revelling in the fact that for 6 years liberals accused Bush of being a war criminal because of his actions as President. Now all the supporters of President Obama are praising him for basically doing what Bush was accused of. At the very least it irony.
It is also interesting that President Obama attempted to assassinate Gadafi at the weekend in an action that far exceeds the UN mandate for Libya. You have to wonder did he personally give that order too?
Killing bin Laden has not solved the debt crisis, the struggling economy, the chaos in the Middle East- or the war on terror. Face it, folks- bin Laden was no longer running the show. He was holed up in an off- the- grid compound, sending couriers out every two months.
Al Zawaheri would have been a better kill.
That said, I am glad bin Laden has left this mortal coil, but that does not address the other issues.
Surely you liberals are not implying that Obama is going to become "a noun, a verb, I killed bin Laden" , are you?
What misguided policies am I advocating? Was for Afghanistan, against Iraq, was against an unfunded Medicare D (say that a simple bribe to the elderly).
If you read my first post you would see that I am of the opinion that this was the right thing to do and would have pulled the trigger myself.
Sorry, I must have missed the announcement that they were closing down Bagram instead of expanding it. Did they try and bring the inmates there back to the US? perhaps you can send me the link.
I don't bemoan unilateralism. I believed in the UN until they had Libya on the Human Rights committee criticizing the US. At that point I realized that its every country for themselves and that you national interests should always take precedence.
If you want to hide behind NATO that's your choice but the UN mandate was to protect the civilian population not to enforce regime change as President Obama continually advocates.
I never voted for GWB and I never supported his tax cuts. I was always for paying off the debt, even in 1999 when it started to go down and disagreed with Alan Greenspan when he stated that we need debt of some kind.
no joe:
You funny . . . the President is solving the problems left to him by the collective genius of the Republican Party as fast as he can . . . it hasn't even been 3 years yet . . . give it some time! :o)
Ya'll are cracking me up . . . "So what he killed bin Laden . . . big deal . . . he wasn't so important anywho . . . that's why we spent trillions of dollars hunting for him all these years!" . . . makes perfect sense . . . lol
They're already out of work FG. 1 in 7 people are on food stamps. Unemployment benefits are running out, and states are looking to tax businesses to make up the difference. Think those additional taxes will make businesses more competitive? All this while the Democrats have been spending trillions in deficit spending - and just where did that money go?
And with this information, people are also starting to believe that the current 9% unemployment number seems a bit low.
Source for foodstamps: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/05/03/about-1-in-7-americans-receive-food-stamps/
Source for unemployment insurance: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/05/03/states-to-tax-businesses-to-shore-up-unemployment-insurance/
They don't need to be more competitive they are making money hand over fist.
Nash -
The only thing funnier than that is that for the last two and a half years, we weren't allowed to even mention the word "Bush".
"That was then, this is now!"
"It's Obama's war!"
"It's Obama's economy!"
"Quit blaming Bush for everything!"
None of the blame, but all of the credit. Amazing!
Bill thanks for the well written response and voice of reason. No matter what you write in this crowd of Obama supporters, you will always have your critics from the party of intolerance.
Exactly JoAnne...couldn't have stated it better myself :o)
JoAnne in PA:
You are so right. We were told never to speak Bush's name again . . . guess they changed their minds, huh? ;o)
Um Nash? Have a little look at this
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20059627-503544.html
This is true of all polls- even those done post Sunday.
It's still the economy- at which Obama is an abject failure.
No joe:
It takes a pretty shallow person to post a link to a poll as a counterbalance to the capture and killing of the most notorious murderer of Americans of our generation.
Talk about a lack of perspective. . . you still got a crow foot sticking out of your mouth . . . swallow harder.
P.S. Weren't you one of the ring leaders telling us all how scared we should be of the big, bad Muslims taking over a building near Ground Zero? Are you typing from your secure bunker, you brave poll watcher you?
Oh, I see. Ad hominem attacks are the answer, are try?
I doubt it.
Let me make it simple- the economy, which was bad when Obama took office, is now worse, with no "hope" for "change" for the better.
The debt, which was high when Obama took office, is now four trillion dollars higher- in less than three years. His prescription for that is about as effective as his prescription for the economy.
Inflation is surging.
The Middle Eastmis in chaos.
I doubt becoming a noun, a veer, I killed bin Laden is going to get him re elected.
No joe:
You left one thing off your little list . . . Osama Bin Laden is dead . . . thanks to the leadership of your President!
Wonder how much of that debt you keep whining about is left over from our misadventure in Iraq? . . . Won't you ask Liz Cheney when she gets back to the bunker where all you brave conservatives hide until the President kills the bad guys, and then ya'll pop out to take credit and quote polls . . . too funny! :o)
JoAnnaSmith1,
RE: "Whoever the Republican nominee is".
In the immortal words of Steven Tyler, "Dream On, dream on, dream on"!
JoAnna-
You dont have to be unemployed to be on food stamps. Some people think that just because someone is recieving help that they dont work. This is not right. Wages have not increased in my area that much in the last ten years, but everything is raising in cost. Insurance premiums go up annually, oil compainies are making record profits, and the middle class is still out of jobs.
So all these companies are doing great, where are the jobs that we were promised? Isnt that why republicans fought so hard to keep those tax cuts?
OR are they all just playing a game with the economy. Blackballing the American people to vote for a Republican President. So then they can take over and claim victory for getting the economy back on track to try and cover up the hundreds of billions they just stole from us and blame it on Obama. Thats been the rights chosen method of attack so far.
BLAME OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill - "....Bush-like tactics in order to rid the world....."
GIVE IT A REST !! You act like Bush is the first person to ever go after a bad guy. You do know that we have past Presidents who did the same things as Bush, many of them in fact. Collectively the experiences of our past Presidents SHOULD help a current President.
The right constantly complains that the left won't stop blaming Bush, won't quit bringing his name into every conversation...and yet....here you are doing just that.
President Obama has been in office for nearly 2.5 years....he can fall down on his own....he can have successes on his own. FTLOG...can we move on?
The newfound admiration of Conservatives for Bush is very entertaining. For the last 2 years they've been saying "he wasn't a real Conservative anyway." Now they bring him back out again as one of the True Believers--which he is.
Conservatism isn't about consistency of thought or principle, it's about selling a narrative.
JoAnnaSmith1
Alan, NJ: Certainly the euphoria from getting bin Laden will cover up the fact that Obama is acting just like Bush. As time marches on, there really won't be much to differentiate the two of them.
There is a big difference between Obama and Bush.
Obama kept a promise he made when running for president. He was called naive by republicans. Bush went to Pakistan and pulled back because they were a sovereign nation and friend and did not want to offend them.
Obama did what he had to do, unlike Bush.
Bush attacked a sovereign country based on lies. Killed thousands of innocent Iraqi people and servicemen and women, he spent billions for what?
Obama got OBL without the killing of innocent people or our solders.
Just because you would look foolish for bashing Obama like you always do, you tried the subtle insult by saying he is like Bush , thinking no one will see it for what it is.
President Obama recognized something that very few have in recent history, or at least very few administrations have been willing to act on the reality. Someone who claims to be a friend and is willing to offer minimal window dressing to offer the appearance of cooperation in return for significant cash isn't really a friend.
Show the photo's. Are you kidding me? Obama needs to pull his pants up and say "NO" on this one. And quit freaking commenting on whether that dip wad was armed or not. Just tell the world our SEALS were ordered to kill him period. In war not everything is fair and it shouldnt be......
I'm thinking that when it comes to the release of photos, the debate isn't on quelling the small minority of conservatives who are espousing conspiracy theories (and IT IS a very small minority). I think the debate is the impact on the Muslim world. The administration thought out the pro's and con's on how to get Osama bin Laden and chose wisely. I trust they'll do the same when it comes to releasing the photo.
As for former President Bush...I think you'd all agree that he has been quite respectful of President Obama starting from the transition and moving forward. He was bashed repeatedly (and for some reasons rightfully so) during the campaign and even afterward. Yet, he has not come out and spoken much of anything negative concerning President Obama. I respect his decision to stay out of the spotlight here.
As for the President's bounce, I think the scope of that bounce will be determined on the economy. If the economy performs poorly, I think that bounce will be short lived. If the economy takes off, that bounce will stick around for a while.
Have a great Wednesday all.
Well said, Frank. Very well said. And I agree, President Bush has been quite respectful of President Obama.
Frank:
You are right on. One reason given that his body was buried at sea was they did not want his body to be a shrine in his memory. Putting up a picture with his brains splattered all over it will become a poster in every training camp on the planet for the radicals. It will be a recruiting tool to attack the really radical.
Just leave it alone for now, and do not publish it. If they feel the need to show a picture, show the ones where his body was handled with respect and the appropriate words spoken as he was sent on his way to a higher court for judgement.
Nice carpentry, Grimey. You nailed it squarely!
Ron, Navy...thanks guys. At this point I'm with you Navy. I don't think showing the picture is necessary and would likely just stir up a hornet's nest. Even his daughter says he is dead. I do agree with First Read here though, that the administration needs to stay out in front of this any way they can. We don't need things like this claim from his daughter that gives the extremists in the world a little more motivation. Next thing you know someone in the compound is going to say bin Laden was baking cookies for the SEALs when they shot him.
Frank:
Thank you, we are on the same page. I would love to know what some of those that wish to do us harm are thinking right now. I bet a few are not sleeping so well lately now that they know the United States will go after them and do what needs to be done.
I think this successful mission is making a few rethink what they may want to do. I also am a little afraid that there is a real radical fringe out there that may be planning something for the future. These guys do have a lot of patience.
Have a great day.
Nice post, Grimey, and as always a thoughtful one.
While I do not need or want to see a photo, I can understand that it may be necessary to prove to many doubters in the Muslim world that OBL is dead; there are those in the middle east who hated him as much as we did and they've been told before that he is dead. Whatever the WH decides, I know the administration will weigh the pros and cons and take a reasonable approach to the decision.
WOW... I can not believe I'm saying this BUT.... I voted for all of your posts...
Thank you "Grimey" for your original post. Very well thought out and the intent was spot on....
Changing the Mindset of Fighting the War on Terror.
In the 1990's, President Clinton captured the first World Trade Center bombers. They weren't captured by invading another country, they were captured by solid police and intelligence work. The cost of finding and prosecuting the bombers was minimal. Clinton recognized that terrorists are not a country unto themselves. They simply live in and operate from a country and often operate outside the government of a country and sometimes the country allows it. Republicans criticized Clinton's treating of terrorists as criminals. They painted him as soft on terror.
President Bush after 9/11, determined that invading the country of Afghanistan was the proper response. Quickly the Taliban and Al Qaeda was defeated in Afghanistan. That was good but the problem is that Bush did not continue the effort to dismantle and destroy Al Qaeda and the Taliban; we merely occupied and began to train Afghans to defend themselves. Nearly 10 years later, we are still there.
By 2002, the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq and began to indoctrinate Americans on the concept. They told Americans about WMD's, that Saddam Hussein supported Al Qaeda, that Hussein was trying to obtain nuclear weapons, mushroom clouds, yellow cake from Niger, that Al Qaeda was in Iraq and a host of other reasons. None of the reasons were true, all were created from tidbits of "maybes" and have since been proved to be lies or exaggerations.
It is estimated the Afghan and Iraq wars on terror, the rebuilding efforts, the medical care for our wounded, the payments to families of our dead military cost $4 trillion.
During the 2004 Presidential campaign, John Kerry indicated we should be fighting terrorists as the criminals they are by using intelligence, following the clues, seeking them out where they hide and not by invading and occupying foreign countries where they might be. Kerry was labeled soft on terror, weak, and unpatriotic.
Late Sunday evening President Obama announced to the world that Osama bin Laden was dead. Navy SEAL Team 6 has repelled into his hideout in Pakistan from two helicopters; in 40 minutes the team left the compound with bin Laden's body and we were gone. This was accomplished not by invading a country but by use of criminal and intelligence gather techniques, following the clues, searching and seeking the criminal and it was over. Had it not been necessary to blow up one of our helicopters, no one would have known we were there for sometime. The risk was great but the cost minimal.
Late Sunday evening President Obama proved that Clinton and Kerry were right and that Bush was wrong. He proved it by using helicopters and a couple dozen men on a midnight raid to capture or kill a criminal, Osama bin Laden. Terrorists have no country, invading and occupying any country to kill or capture the terrorists is the wrong approach.
Perhaps, finally, the American people, the media, legislators will realize that a surgical approach based on police and FBI investigative work and CIA intelligence gathering is the only way to fight the War on Terror.
Jody are you joking? Let me shed some light on this for you. When Bush first went after Bin Laden in Afganistan you couldnt have ran off the 10'000's of thousdans of terrorists surrounding him and protected by the Taliban with a single SEAL team. Why can't you just thank Bush for keeping your grass hopper life style safe for the remainder of his term as President and leave it at that.....
I am not in favor of showing the photos. What good would showing the photos do? The photos should be regardedas confidential government business. Some people will never be satisfied no matter how much information you share with them. It reminds me of the folks in biblical times that wanted to see the lion eat someone. We should act like civilized human beings.
Jody, well said.
I am pretty sure I met a 9/11 terrorist face to face on a street in Portland. I was walking up the crest of a hill and I startled a mid-eastern looking man, who I assumed was an immigrant, standing on the sidewalk. I could tell by his clothes he was "not from around here." I made eye contact with him and the vibe I got was "don't look at me!" I was really frightened and I wondered if I had broken some cultural taboo. Portland has lots of new arrivals from other countries, though, and they usually welcome social contact, in my experience. This man gave off a completely different vibe. He did not want human contact. He was in a psychopathic frame of mind.
I have thought about that experience in the last few days. I think bin Laden gave these guys a spiritual gloss on their political anger and frustration. What prompts men to take up arms? Fear, rage and poverty. What prompts them to kill civilians? A mindset that dehumanizes others in the name of purity. Rightwingers will accuse me of being "understanding" towards terrorits, but I think "understanding" is as much of a weapon against terror as a predator drone.
It is part of the demonization of the other side that now permeates our politics, Jody. To the Republicans, there can't be a debate over tactics. Their tactic is correct and anything else is weak, soft on terror and unAmerican.
UAW. Reread paragraph 2, I didn't say a Navy SEAL team for Afghanistan would have worked; in fact, I said what Bush did was good. But he failed to follow through and finish the job. We could have left there several years ago had Bush finished what he started but he didn't.
My broader point is that we need to rethink the way we fight terrorists, that many times a surgical strike makes much more sense than 10 and 8 years of war and occupation.
On the other hand, if Bush was so wonderful at this like UAW claims, he would have been the one that got Bin Laden. Maybe Bush really was incompetent.
To avoid further misinterpretation of my comment #9, I should add that invading Afghanistan was the correct decision by President Bush because Afghanistan was a stronghold of Al Qaeda, the Taliban provided safe harbor to Osama bin Laden who could operate freely within that country without fear of reprisal by the Afghan rulers.
My criticism of former President Bush is that he did not finish the job in Afghanistan and instead started a second war in another country justified by his War on Terror doctrine--to destroy terrorists we must invade and occupy. At that point, the surgical approach to fighting terrorists would have served this country far better than a second, long-term war and subsequent occupation in Iraq. Although Bush used his "War on Terror" as justification for Iraq, the truth is he just wanted to get rid of Saddam Hussein. The cost of that incompetent decision in lives and treasure has been huge.
There is no one standard of approach for dealing with every situation. However, it is important that this country's leaders and the military rethink the mindset that invasion and troops on the ground wars are the first answer to every crisis, every terrorist incident. We must look at other options and whenever possible, the surgical and criminal approach to tracking down and capturing or killing terrorists should be the first one we consider before ever starting another war.
Jody do you really beleive the "Surgical" strike on Bin Laden is suddenly going to stop all the other Terrorists operating in Pakistan? Of course not you can have surgical strikes until you run out of bullets. But, sooner or later we will have to invade Pakistan just like Afganistan or we will be dealing with these douche bags for years. So yes some times you have to invade countries to really address the problem. Like I've said previously Obama knew he was out of his league which is why he kept a Republican in charge of the military. And it was the military who eventualy got Bin Laden...
Pakistan has nuclear weapons. We won't invade them. We may blow up their nuclear arsenal because it is looking more and more like they are clueless of al qaeda sympathizers within their ranks and cannot protect that arsenal from falling into al qaeda's hands. That is my only worry with them. They play both sides for the money. We have been blindly giving it to them for years. Time to stop and park drones over their leadership.
U.S. Navy disabled-retired and a member of Sons of Confederate Veterans.
I think President Obama is the best Commander -in-Chief of my generation, I am proud of his efforts to help working people though the GOP is against him on everything he tries to do to help our country out of the mess Bush made of it. Now they won't give him credit for getting Bin Laden which doesn't surprise me. When the Republican party won the House, Mitch McConnell stated, "it will be the mission of the 111th Congress to see that Obama is a one term president". Now that is what I call working together to solve our country's problems. These people are every bit as racist as the Tea Party is.
And speaking of the TeaBaggers, if we are going back to the way our founding fathers did, I guess that would mean re-instituting slavery, right? That's what this country was founded on. Racism should be as dead as the Confederacy, but it will never go away. And in the founding father's day, they were Whigs, so we can do away with the Republican Party. Now there's an idea I can support!
I want the world to see the pictures of that villian to serve notice to the world, we will not allow our people to be murdered without a price. The Taliban wasn't shy about showing videos of captured soldiers, bound and gagged. Bush knew Bin Laden wasn't in Iraq and went in there anyway. We sure had enough money to do that, and he even scared America into voting him in for a second term. Fear works every time.
Palin/Trump 2012!!!
First, Jody, well said as usual. Second, we will be fighting terrorism for a long time. The art of war has changed drastically in the last few centuries. We are not fighting country against county. We are a country (sadly, divided) fighting an ideology based enemy. I do think that we need to bring our troops home but that we must do it in a way that will not endanger them further. I do agree that surgical strikes are extremely effective. We do now need to look to our own future. We need to have our politicians look to what is best for our country as a whole and not what is best for just the rich and corporations. We need to insure that the middle class survives and that the poor, young and elderly are taken care of. Look at the article on the girls of India. We are not there yet but we could be heading that way. Term limits and limiting the cost and length of political campaigns and contributions are a start. Training programs instead of life long welfare would also help. We need to find middle ground instead of two extremes that seem to be doing their best to divide this country.
Terrorism is a concept, an idea. Not a soldier in a uniform. A terrorist, on the other hand is a tangible being. So, how many countries should we invade since there are terrorists all over the world, including right here in the US? The "war on terrorism" is a joke. how does one launch and successfully fight a war against an idea? THAT is where Bush failed so miserably.
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I wouldn't do a damn thing to please conspiracy theorists! They can join Bin Laden right next to the fire in Hell!
As distasteful as it is, I believe the photos should be released. I persoally do not wish to see them but, some people will claim Bin idiot is still alive if we do not. I understand about not wanting to escalate terrorist issues. The only problem is with bin idiots death that has already occurred. Nothing we do will change that. With that in mind, the President may as well stop some of the nonsense by releasing the photos.
I don't think there's a "win" either way. There will always be those who claim it's a hoax whether they are released or not, just like there will always be birthers and always be 9/11 was an inside jobers. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid. For some seeing the photos will provide a closure of sorts. For some there will be intense regret at having looked at them- you just can't unsee some things and a dead man, regardless of a distinct lack of humanity that may have resided within him, is one of those sights that will never leave you. For others it will inflame. For many it will not effect them one way or another ever. There is no right answer on this question.
Suzy -
I know we don't often agree on much, but this is one time we're 100% on the same page. Your comment about how you can't "unsee" things reminded me all too well of that "iconic"photo many years ago that caught the exact moment of a guy in Vietnam being executed and shot in the head. It was splashed all over the front pages of the newspapers and I believe even won a Pulitzer Prize for the photographer. In the 40 or so years since I first had just a glimpse of it, I've never been able to get that image out of my mind, no matter how much I wish I could "unsee" it. So obviously, my preference would be that these pictures not be released. But this isn't my decision, and I'm very glad it's not.
I am puzzled as to why everyone in the news media acts as if no one knows when we are going to begin withdrawing from Afghanistan.
Our Commander in Chief already set a date for that when he took the time to create a PLAN for Afghanistan that has yielded some rather good results.
Remember all that whining from the media and conservatives about "dithering"?
The word that eluded you fine "analysts" was "planning", and thanks to President Obama taking the TIME to make a PLAN we can now HONOR the SACRIFICE of all the brave men and women who died in Afghanistan looking for that murderous thug, Osama bin Laden.
Now, who wants to claim that waterboarding helped the President with that?
Anyone?
I didn't think so. Like it or not, ya'll are going to HAVE to give the PRESIDENT the RESPECT he has EARNED.
P.S. Combat operations in Iraq have ended, so can folks in the media stop saying we are currently in "three wars"? We are fighting in one war, the one that we will start leaving this July. . . Combat operations in Iraq have ended and the effort in Libya is being coordinated by NATO and no war has been declared. The truth matters.
Nash that's fine like frog hair split three ways right there. Dead on the money as always
Why thank you IR . . . means a whole lot coming from you!
I don't understand the almost-immediate calls from Republicans to continue in Afghanistan. Of course without mentioning how we pay for it other than cutting programs that benefit people here in America.
Nash:
Outstanding post today. Thank you.
Excellent post, Nashville. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
Thanks for your kind words Navy and Jody!
In keeping with the Obama tradition we should have sent Eric Holder in with a properly signed search warrant. I can't wait to see Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and thier clan marching down the street with Bin Laden's family protesting the atrocity of shooting an un-armed man.... :)~
And yet despite your whining, a tactical very risky military operation succeeded. Now you can proceed with your obvious obsessions...
Bill, Fairfax won the Nobel Prize for being a pin head in spite of your worthy efforts. Maybe next time?
No, don't release them. What do we have to prove? Send a copy to Al Jeezer if the Arabs need to see them.
Summertime -
Al Jazeera is a news network, so releasing photos to them would be the same as releasing them to any U.S. news media. Besides, from everything I've read and heard, most people over there have already accepted that he's dead anyway. The conspiracy theorists mostly seem to come from our own country. We owe them nothing and they'd believe nothing anyway - not photos, not DNA evidence, not videos, not even the testimony of our country's finest service members who risked their lives to carry out this mission.
However, this is not my decision to make any more than it is yours. I don't envy President Obama this one, but whatever decision he makes, I know it will not be made lightly.
It would be good to release decent photos of Bin Laden to show that it was really him, and that he was prepared for burial with more respect than he deserved. That would help minimize conspiracies that he is still alive, and also minimize the ability to use the photos to promote hate. However, it depends whether they planned photography in advance that was specifically designed for public release.
As for enhanced interrogations (i.e. torture), it is almost always less productive that friendly, psychological interrogation techniques. Torture is only useful when there is an imminent threat to lives, and there is not time for proper interrogation. Otherwise, it just promotes more hate, which is the root of terrorism.
My question is , How come when Sadam s sone were killed their pictures were all over the media and now Washington is'nt sure we should see the pictures of OBL. What are they afraid of ???????
Their afraid of the truth coming out......that his NOT at the bottom of the sea.
Would that YOU were!!!
ath001. Different president for one reason; thinking carefully about the pros and cons, what's gained and what isn't for another.
ath do you not remember that there was an election in 2008? Or, do you not remember when it was that the ohotos of SH's sons were released? bet you also don't know about the backlash over those photo's do you?
I say release the photo's. not so much for the fact of proving that it's a conspiracy, but the simple fact that enough people have died for the fact of seeing this pricks head on a pole. i thinks the people that want to see it should be allowed to. hell, a lot of them have given their life to see it. as far as their traditions and all screw them. they sure as hell paraded around and showed it when they were executing and chopping our peoples head off, without a problem, without giving a sh#t about our feelings. f*ck em
anyone who believes obama can tell the truth about anything is a fool. obama is the worst president ever. he is destroying our economy, with debt, inflations, energy resoures and with the terrible obamacare package. Is it 2012 yet? The American Taxpayer is smarter than the media.
What Stan really means to say is how grateful he is that our President doesn't TALK on what he is going to do, he gets it done. So different from Bush, right Stan?
Stan, the economy collapsed before President Obama was elected or do you simply choose to ignore when that occurred. The Great Recession began in December 2007, before Candidate Obama was even the democratic nominee. Ignoring facts to promote an ideological view may justify your dislike that we have a democratic president but it doesn't change the facts. You're entitled to your opinion but not entitled to create your own facts.
I've come to the conclusion that people such as Stan have no concept of time. They walk around in a fog all the time and have no clue what year, month, day or hour it is.
Stan, the economy collapsed before President Obama was elected or do you simply choose to ignore when that occurred. The Great Recession began in December 2007, before Candidate Obama was even the democratic nominee
Jody Refresh my memory who writes the appropriations bills. Congress. Who took over the Congress both Senate and House previous election (2006). Democrats you might recall SOTH Nancy Pelosi, SML Harry Reid. I do believe Mr. Obama was a Senator at the time. So as liberals are so fond of saying the House writes the spending bills, who is really at fault. President Bush did not write the spending bills and in both chambers the dems had a huge majority. Talk about ignoring facts, you are as guilty as everyone else. Personally Both parties are at fault for this mess and one other thing Obama knew about the mess but campaigned on turning it around and so far the evidence is not exactly a ringing endorsement now is it.
At least some of President Obama's critics know how to give credit where credit is due...
<shakes his head>
Fred Barnes told Hannity’s Fox News that in a recent meeting with Bush, the president had told him “bin Laden doesn’t fit with the administration’s strategy for combating terrorism.” Barnes said Bush told him that capturing bin Laden is “not a top priority use of American resources.”
http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/02/bush-bin-laden/
DaNoid:
Palin is an idiot. She knows her 15 minutes of fame has come and gone. She has become "Not Important", we do not know where she is and we do not care.
Sound familiar.
Thanks for the great post.
Sarah Palin is a putz
Shakes head is an understatement. She must have missed John McCain's unabashed praise of President Obama yesterday but more likely she simply chose to ignore it and play her partisan and irrelevant game.
"Yesterday was a testament to the military’s dedication in relentlessly hunting down an enemy through many years of war. We thank President Bush for having made the right calls to set up this victory.” - Sarah Palin, 5/2/2011
She is somewhat delusional, I find it rather odd that Palin just doesn't get it Bush was searching in the hills of Pakistan, Afghanistan, couldn't find him so he diverted his attentions towards Iraq, which he explained that he was doing because of the Weapons of Mass Destruction, which have yet to be located.... So since WMD's have yet to be found, someone was lying about there existence.... Now since Obama gets credit for the melt down of the economy that took place or was set in motion under Bush & Cheny administration, it seems to me that just perhaps Obama should also get credit for removing the scum bag that set this last decade long war into motion from the face of the earth and feed him to the sharks....
So Jallen...I understand the progressive-left in the country does not believe President Bush should have gone into Iraq. Just wanted to present some 'intel' the President had to 'consider' before making that decision. Question is; 'if you were the President at this time with this intel to consider; what would you have done'. As for me, don't know, but I believe Bush acted on the intel he had. Your thoughts?
Iraq and Weapons of Mass Destruction
In the 1970s, Iraq was unsuccessful in negotiations with France to purchase a plutonium production reactor similar to the one used in France's nuclear weapons program. With French assistance, Iraq then built the Osiraq 40 megawatt light-water nuclear reactor near Baghdad. When Israeli intelligence confirmed Iraq's intention to produce weapons at Osiraq, the Israeli government decided to attack. According to some estimates, Iraq in 1981 was still as much as five to ten years away from the ability to build a nuclear weapon. Others estimated, at that time, Iraq might get its first such weapon within a year or two. On June 7, 1981 Iraqi defenses were caught by surprise and the reactor at Osiraq was destroyed.
It is estimated that the Iran/Iraq war cost the two sides a million casualties. Iraq used chemical weapons in that war extensively from 1984. Some twenty thousand Iranians were killed by mustard gas, and the nerve agents tabun and sarin. This marked the first time a country had been named for violating the 1925 Geneva Convention banning the use of chemical weapons. http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page279.asp" target="_blank">
On March 16, 1988, the Iraqi Air Force appeared over the city of Halabja. At the time, the city was home to roughly eighty thousand Kurds. The attack on Halabja was the most notorious and the single deadliest gas attack against the Kurds killing 5,000 civilians and injuring 10,000 more. But, it was just one of some forty chemical assaults staged by Iraq against the Kurdish people.
On April 3, 1990, four months prior to the invasion of Kuwait, the Los Angeles Times reported, "Iraqi President Saddam Hussein declared Monday that his military machine has nerve gas and the means to deliver it, threatening to destroy 'half of Israel' if it attacks Iraqi targets." The LA Times also reported that, the week prior, five Iraqi agents were arrested in London attempting to smuggle nuclear triggering devices to Baghdad.
After invading Kuwait, Iraq attempted to accelerate its program to develop a nuclear weapon by using radioactive fuel from the Osiraq reactor. It made a crash effort in September, 1990 to recover enriched fuel from this supposedly safe-guarded reactor, with the goal of produced a nuclear weapon by April, 1991. The program was only halted after Coalition air raid destroyed key facilities on January 17, 1991.
After the first Gulf War, on April 3, 1991, the U.N. adapted ceasefire resolution 687. As part of this agreement, Iraq was required to destroy, under international supervision, all chemical and biological weapons and stocks of agents and all related development, research, and manufacturing facilities. In the following years, however, Iraq would not cooperate with inspectors. At the end of the second Gulf War, U.S. forces found over 500 chemical weapons proving that Iraq never destoyed their WMD in violation of this ceasefire agreement.
On January 13, 1993 warplanes from the United States, France and Britain bombed missile sites in southern Iraq. About 80 strike aircraft and 30 support planes took part. The New York Times reported that, "At the same time, Iraq offered to halt its raids into Kuwait. They have been taking place for several days and were a violation of United Nations resolutions. Iraq has also deployed missile batteries in forbidden areas and fired an Iraqi missile at an American plane, actions the United States has described as brazen provocations by Baghdad. In a further warning to Mr. Hussein that he could not continue to flout the will of the United Nations, Mr. Bush announced the dispatch of a battalion-sized task force, composed of about 1,250 American troops, to neighboring Kuwait, where they will act as a deterrent to further Iraqi incursions."
On January 18, 1993 the Seattle Post-intelligencer reported that the United States launched a cruise missile attack delivering "the political and diplomatic point" that Iraq must comply with United Nations resolutions. "In a dramatic crescendo for President Bush's final weekend in office, U.S. forces shot down a MiG-23 warplane and struck an Iraqi air defense installation. Hours later, U.S. warships launched about 40 Tomahawks into the night skies near Iraq's capital," they reported. It was the second strike on Iraq within five days. A White House Spokesman said a nuclear weapon fabrications plant was targeted in response to a series of weekend military provocations by Iraq.
On January 21, 1993, the day after President Bill Clinton was inaugurated, the Los Angeles Times reported, "A solid majority of Americans favor U.S. military intervention to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq." The Times cited a recent poll which asked Americans whether they would back an all-out effort to remove Saddam Hussein even "at the risk of losing some American lives" and 60% of those questioned said yes while only 30% said no.
On September 15, 1996 the Washington Post reported the CIA had spent $100 million, or an average of $20 million a year, in efforts to topple Saddam Hussein since the Gulf War. The Post reported that, "Although no U.S. order was given to any Iraqi dissident to kill Saddam, the CIA provided funds to groups that it knew were attempting to do so." When the covert program was expanded early in the year, the agency was authorized by the White House to support acts of sabotage inside Iraq that would create an image of a country descending into chaos. Several Iraqi dissidents claimed a military rebellion failed to materialize because Washington withheld a promised aerial bombardment of Iraqi military positions, but the Clinton administration dismissed the claim that aerial support was promised.
On March 26, 1997 Secretary of State Madeleine Albright proclaimed, "the evidence is overwhelming that Saddam Hussein's intentions will never be peaceful." In a major foreign policy speech at Georgetown University the Secretary of State was highly critical of the Iraqi dictator. "Consider that Iraq admitted producing chemical and biological warfare agents before the Gulf War that were sufficiently lethal to kill every man, woman and child on earth. Consider that Iraq has yet to provide convincing evidence that it has destroyed all of these weapons. Consider that Iraq admitted loading many of those agents into missile warheads before the war. Consider that Iraq retains more than 7,500 nuclear scientists and technicians, as well as technical documents related to the production of nuclear weapons. Consider that Iraq has been caught trying to smuggle in missile guidance instruments. And consider that according to Ambassador Ekeus, UNSCOM has not been able to account for all the missiles acquired over the years. In fact, Ekeus believes that it is highly likely that Iraq retains an operational Scud missile force, probably with chemical or biological weapons to go with it."
On November 16, 1997 the Sunday Times reported that Iraq was manufacturing poisonous gas at a secret location in Sudan. "Bypassing the ban on weapons of mass destruction which the United Nations imposed on Baghdad after its defeat in the Gulf war, Saddam Hussein and the Islamist government of General Omar al Bashir in Khartoum are making and stockpiling mustard gas for their mutual benefit." Since production started, the article reported, the Sudanese armed forces were known to have used mustard gas against the Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) on at least two occasions.
On November 20, 1997 the New York Times reported that no arms inspections had taken place in Iraq since October 29 when Baghdad threatened to expel Americans on the monitoring teams. The Times also reported that the head of the United Nations inspection team recently went to the Security Council with photographs and documents demonstrating that Iraq continued to pose a threat in almost every area of weapons development. The photographs showed a convoy of trucks entering and leaving a factory after inspectors indicated it was a site they wished to visit. As an example of how Iraq changed its accounting, a chemical weapons expert said that in 1995 Iraq admitted to having made 160 kilograms of VX nerve agent. Then Iraq altered its figures to 240 kilograms, then to 1,250 kilograms. By June 1996, the Iraqis acknowledged they produced at least 3.9 tons of VX.
On November 23, 1997 CBS News "60 Minutes" ran an interview with Iraqi defector and former chief of military intelligence Wafiq al-Sammarrai. During this interview, Sammarrai said that Iraq had an active biological weapons program. He said the U.N. weapons inspectors were being deceived and that they would never be allowed inside the Presidential Palace because of documents kept there. Wafiq Sammarrai also said that Saddam Hussein had considered carrying out a biological weapons attack against the United States using anthrax.
On December 15, 1997 the Associated Press reported that Defense Secretary William Cohen had ordered all 1.5 million men and women in uniform to be inoculated against anthrax. The article mentioned, "The move comes amid the confrontation with Iraq's Saddam Hussein and the United Nations' efforts to uncover his weapons of mass destruction." The Chattanooga Free Pressreported at the time that Saddam had 2,100 gallons of anthrax toxin.
On January 28, 1998 the Senate passed Concurrent Resolution 71 "condemning Iraq's threat to international peace and security." Among the co-sponsors of this bill were Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Bob Graham, Patrick Moynihan, Robert Byrd, Patrick Leahy, and Christopher Dodd. This resolution "urges the President to take all necessary and appropriate actions to respond to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." In defense of President Clinton's inclination to use military force in Iraq, Daschle said this resolution would "send as clear a message as possible that we are going to force, one way or another, diplomatically or militarily, Iraq to comply with international law."
On February 10, 1998, Yossef Bodansky, director of the U.S. House of Representatives Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, published a task force report compiled from information obtained from Arab opposition movements as well as from British, German and Israeli intelligence sources. The report said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction at that time including anthrax, nerve gas, and mustard gas. It also claimed that some Iraqi nuclear materials were being held in Algeria. Yossef Bodansky said a chemical weapons factory was being built at that time, with the help of Iraqi experts, south-west of Sudan's capital Khartoum for Islamic terrorists associated with Osama bin Laden. This 1998 report concludes, "And so, the US is planning an instant-gratification bombing campaign that would neither destroy Iraq's WMD operational capabilities nor touch its main WMD production lines in Libya and Sudan."
On February 17, 1998 President Clinton said, "Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal. And I think every one of you who's really worked on this for any length of time believes that, too."
By late February 1998, U.S. forces in the gulf region had reached more than 40,000 and were reinforced with British and other allied contingents. The U.S. military build-up was due to Iraq's obstruction of U.N. (UNSCOM) weapons inspections. On February 18, 1998 President Bill Clinton said, "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." Five days later, however, Kofi Annan struck a deal with the Iraqi dictator that once again allowed U.N. inspectors permission to inspect. As the crisis receded, U.S. forces were drawn back down to their pre-1997 levels. Ten months after Saddam accepted Annan's offer, Saddam kicked U.N. weapons inspectors out of Iraq for good.
On February 26, 1998 CNN reported that Iraq is attempting to develop an unmanned aircraft capable of delivering nerve gas or the biological agent anthrax. http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9802/26/iraq.weapon/" target="_blank">
On March 24, 1998 the Daily Mail reported that Saddam Hussein was planning a deadly anthrax attack inside Britain. A top secret alert was sent out to security officials manning ports and airports demanding vigilance after intelligence sources alerted the British Government to the plot. It was reported that Saddam had plans to smuggle large amounts of anthrax inside "hostile countries" with bottles normally containing spirits or cosmetics as well as in cigarette lighters and perfume sprays.
On May 1, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-174, which made $5,000,000 available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition for such activities as organization, training, communication and dissemination of information, developing and implementing agreements among opposition groups, compiling information to support the indictment of Iraqi officials for war crimes, and for related purposes.
On August 3, 1998 the House of Representatives voted 407-6 to condemn Iraq for its "material breach" of U.N. resolutions and international agreements. Signed on August 14, 1998 by President Bill Clinton this resolution (Public Law 105-235) urged the President to take appropriate action to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations. It listed dozens of violations dating from 1991 and culminating with recent evidence that Iraq had produced chemical warheads for missiles.
On August 20, 1998, President Bill Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack against a chemical weapons factory in Sudan. The chemical weapons factory the U.S. hit was funded, in part, by Osama bin Laden who the U.S. believed responsible for the U.S. embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. Thomas Pickering, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, told reporters, "We see evidence that we think is quite clear on contacts between Sudan and Iraq. In fact, El Shifa officials, early in the company's history, we believe were in touch with Iraqi individuals associated with Iraq's VX program."
On August 27, 1998 NPR's Mike Shuster reported that US justification for destroying a pharmaceutical factory in the Sudan had shifted from focusing on links to Saudi dissent Osama bin Laden, to alleged Iraqi chemical weapons experts believed to have been working in the Sudan to avoid UN weapons inspections in their homeland. US officials said Iraqi technicians came to the Sudan soon after Iraq's defeat in the Gulf War to continue their work on chemical weapons in Sudanese pharmaceutical plants.
On October 23, 1998 the BBC reported a Chief Petty officer in the Royal Navy was sentenced to 12 months in jail for leaking information to the media about a plot by Saddam Hussein to launch anthrax attacks inside the UK. The deadly toxin was to be smuggled into the UK disguised as harmless liquids. The story appeared in The Sun on March 24, 1998 under the headline 'Saddam's Anthrax in Our Duty Frees.'
The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) passed by the House and Senate and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 31, 1998 stated, "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime." This legislation also allocated $97,000,000 to aid Iraqi democratic opposition organizations.
On November 15, 1998 the New York Times reported a massive air strike involving hundreds of cruise missiles was called off after a last-minute flurry of diplomatic activity. The New York Times reported, "Administration officials said Mr. Clinton had been urged by senior advisers to begin the air strikes earlier this week, if only to avoid the situation that is now unfolding, with the United States left once again in the awkward position of rushing a huge force to the Persian Gulf to confront Iraq, only to have the Iraqis back down at the last minute. But Mr. Clinton, they said, had decided to delay the attack until today so that more American warplanes and ships could be in place near Iraq. Officials said they feared that the Administration, which had largely abandoned hope that the United Nations weapons inspections would be allowed to resume in any meaningful way, was left with the worst of all scenarios: an ineffective inspection program, President Hussein still fully in charge, and a large American military force in the Persian Gulf without a clear mission."
On December 16, 1998 President Bill Clinton ordered an attack on Iraq's nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors. Clinton said, "Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors. He will make war on his own people. And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them. Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future."
On December 17, 1998 The Washington Post reported, "The opening U.S. attack against Iraq yesterday involved more than 200 cruise missiles launched from ships in the Persian Gulf and scores of bombs dropped from aircraft flying from the carrier USS Enterprise against targets across the country, defense officials said. With the strikes planned to last at least three days and possibly longer, officials said U.S. and British warplanes stationed in Persian Gulf states and B-52 bombers operating out of the Indian Ocean island of Diego Garcia would join the effort, which aims to pummel a broad range of targets critical to Iraq's weapons manufacturing and President Saddam Hussein's hold on power."
In an August 3, 1999 interview, Richard Butler, former chief weapons inspector for UNSCOM, said that Saddam Hussein had an "addiction" for weapons of mass destruction.
On September 8, 2001 the Washington Times wrote about a recently declassified semiannual CIA report covering the period from July to December of 2000. The CIA reported to congress that, "In the absence of UNSCOM or other inspections and monitoring since late 1998, we remain concerned that Iraq may again be producing biological warfare agents. Iraq has continued working on its L-29 unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) program, which involves converting L-29 jet trainer aircraft originally acquired from Eastern Europe. It is believed that Iraq has conducted flights of the L-29, possibly to test system improvements or to train new pilots. These refurbished trainer aircraft are believed to have been modified for delivery of chemical or, more likely, biological warfare agents." The CIA reported that, "Although we were already concerned about a reconstituted nuclear weapons program, our concerns were increased last September when Saddam publicly exhorted his 'Nuclear Mujahidin' to 'defeat the enemy'."
On November 25, 2001 The Washington Post wrote an article with details regarding Iraq's germ warfare program. According to the article, U.N. weapons inspectors got their first glimpse of Iraq's biological weapons program during an August 1991 inspection of Salman Pak, one of Iraq's premier biological weapons facilities. Iraqi documents later obtained by the United Nations indicated that Baghdad subsequently filled more than 50 bombs and missile warheads with a liquid form of anthrax. The Washington Post also reported that Iraq acknowledged producing at least 19,000 liters of botulinum toxin, using more than half to fill at least 116 bombs and missile warheads.
On September 12, 2002 George W. Bush gave a speech before the United Nations. Armed with a point-by-point list of Saddam Hussein's transgressions included in a White House paper entitled "A Decade of Deception and Defiance" of the United Nations, the President detailed how Saddam continued to develop weapons of mass destruction, engage in egregious human-rights violations, participated in international terrorism, and sought to evade economic sanctions and kept Kuwaiti property that should have been returned after the 1991 Gulf War.
On September 24, 2002, the British government released a report titled "Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction: The Assessment of the British Government." It was the judgement of the British government that Iraq had: continued to produce chemical and biological agents; tried covertly to acquire technology and materials which could be used in the production of nuclear weapons; sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa; and had learnt lessons from previous UN weapons inspections and had already begun to conceal sensitive equipment and documentation in advance of the return of inspectors. In his January 28, 2003 State of the Union address, George Bush said, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." This quote would later be referred to as his "famous 16 words."
United Nations weapons inspectors returned to Iraq on November 27, 2002 for the first time since December 1998. In February 2003, one month prior to the outbreak of war, 14 shells containing mustard gas were destroyed in Iraq under UN supervision. According to the official United Nations report (page 30), samples taken from these shells showed the mustard gas produced over 15 years earlier was not degraded and "still of high quality."
On March 19, 2003 President George Bush announced, "My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger." Bush said, "We will meet that threat now, with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of fire fighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities."
During the 9/11 hearings, former Clinton Defense Secretary William Cohen testified that the manager of a chemical weapons plant in Sudan (which was funded by Osama bin Laden and later destroyed by U.S. cruise missiles on Aug. 20, 1998) met in Baghdad with an Iraqi nerve gas expert.
On May 17, 2004, the U.S. military said a roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent had recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy. The discovery of nerve gas was followed by a second revelation from the military that another shell, equipped with mustard gas, had been found two weeks earlier.
On January 25, 2006, Former Iraqi General Georges Sada gave an interview to FOXNews regarding Iraq's missing WMDs. Sada, a top military advisor and the number two man in the air force, claims that Iraq's chemical weapons were moved to Syria prior to the war. Georges Sada is the author of the book called, "Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein."
On April 12, 2006 the White House issued a press release in response to an article in the Washington Post that criticized the administration’s claims about weapons of mass destruction and the justifications for war. It stated, "The Washington Post cites Iraqi WMD evidence as the only reason offered by President Bush for unseating Saddam Hussein..... But the President provided many other reasons for liberating Iraq." The press release from the White House listed six other reasons for the war: 1) Saddam Hussein Violated United Nations Security Council Resolutions; 2) Patrolling The UN-Mandated No-Fly Zone, U.S. And Coalition Forces Were Regularly Attacked; 3) Saddam Hussein Brutalized Iraq's Civilian Population; 4) Saddam Hussein Supported And Harbored Terrorist Organizations; 5) Saddam Hussein Had A History Of Pursuing And Using WMD; and 6) Removing Saddam Hussein Brought Freedom To The Heart Of The Middle East. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060412-8.html" target="_blank">
WMD found in Iraq. On June 21, 2006, Senator Rick Santorum (R, PA) called press conference and stated, "We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons." Reading from a declassified report Santorum said, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."
Ya but first Bush had to know how to read which is a bigger question.
"So Jallen...I understand the progressive-left in the country does not believe President Bush should have gone into Iraq."
Uh, not just the progressive-left think that but anyone with half a brain came to that conclusion as soon as Afgainistan (i.e. Tora Bora) missions started getting a lower priority. One would hope ALL reasonable educated Americans KNOW that now we should not have squandered our national treasures (human and fiscal) in Iraq - 2 of my cousins, deployed there since 02, are rebuilding the @!$%# we blew up - total cluster *&^# - they'd welcome us and the oil would pay for it and mission accomplised my ***).
So despite your long winded arguments MANY thought it rash at the time and a big freeakin distraction from the at the time task at hand of capturing OBL and putting down the taliban in Afgainstan. Hussein had NOPTHING to do with 9/11 depite what the brain dead thought for far too long into the last decade and some knuckleheads still think to this day. Bush stated clearly and early on that OBL, the guy who was behind real attacks and blood-shed on US soil, was not a priority. WTF????????? Your revisionist GOP spin isn't going to change the poor choices bade by Bush and the war hawks who pushed for a large scale Iraq conflict (yet had no patience for UN inspection processes).
The photos or videos should be classified as top secret, and never be released to float through cyber space for ever. They should be shown in person to members of the US congress and heads of state of other countries who wish to view them. They can then verify to the people they represent that it was Bin-Laden.
I totally agree with Forest Gump.
Forest
I agree that the photos should not be released. If they do make a decision to release them, it should be to release the photos 25 to 50 years from now.
I wouldn't even consider showing his picture. Many of the families who lost their loved ones never got closure. Why should we give the whackos who care about him that courtesy. Don't give that sick faction of society anything to rally around. He's gone, get over it. Let's move on to a better world.
And why should the victims and the world be subjected to endless photoshoped videos and such.
Joe Krahn..
Really, planned photography?
Seal Team 6 went into that compound under heavy fire and had to fight their way into the mansion and up to the third floor. They shot Osama in the left eye and chest. Guessing the head shot blew off most of hs face. Did you want the team to stop and take a photo op for public release. Unless they are going to use morticians wax to put his head back together these will be gruesome pix. Yes, they sgould release them because unlike MOST of us who believe he'd dead, I don't think the Muslim world, especially the Jihadists are going to believe us. Then again, he can't become a martyr until he is dead. In both casses they would need a proof of dearg photo.
We must announce we are not done. Either you are with us or you are against us and if you are against us and do harm or promote harm you will be killed. Any questions? Send them out on the next mission.
Really now, "RAGES"?
That's the first thing I thought, Jennifer. The media is playing this up as much as possible to keep people glued to the news reports, etc, etc.