Core Issue of the 2012 Election:

It's easy to say what the 2012 election is NOT about. It will not be about Trump, or the birthers, or gay marriage, or even about raising the national debt ceiling. Some say it will be about the size of government, but more accurately it will be about the PURPOSE of government.

Since the GOP/TP took a hard turn to the right, they have supported the notion of small government in favor of big corporations. In their political bible, "Atlas Shrugged", Ayn Rand writes, "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Wow, a statement that shows little to no compassion for our fellow Americans. Clearly those who believe Rand's words do not believe the Christian message that we are our brother's keeper. In short, conservatives believe it's all about me…and me first.

Progressives have a totally opposite view. Helping those in need is a major tenet among Democrats as evidenced by the civil rights movement, supporting middle-class Americans, passing Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and now healthcare. These have been hard fought battles which the Democrats have eventually won.

The 2012 election will be all about the size and purpose of government. House Republicans who voted in favor of Paul Ryan's budget proposal to end Medicare as we know it will have to defend that vote. Already we see a number of town hall meetings where GOP/TP representative are attempting to justify their vote. The problem these conservatives are having is that Tea Partiers over age 65 do not want changes to their government health insurance. The majority of Americans have no interest in returning back to the days before civil rights, Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

So, is the purpose of government to scale down to the point that our infrastructure is in danger of crumbling and its people lose the American dream? Or is the purpose of government to provide opportunities for all its people to prosper with a better education for its children and an provide a safety net of Social Security and healthcare for its seniors? This is a fight Democrats welcome.

Why does the GOP/TP think that our Laws (some of which they wrote) no longer apply to them?

Last month, a New Jersey state judge struck down Gov. Chris Christie’s (R) $820 million cuts in education because they disproportionately affected low-income students in violation of the state constitution. That case is now pending before the New Jersey Supreme Court.

In an interview with radio host Eric Scott last week, Christie suggested that if the state’s highest court hands down a decision that he does not like, he may simply defy the court order. So the Governor of a State puts himself above the Law? Begs the question then why do we have laws if one group of people feels they can just ignore them any dam# time they want to?

Christie’s apparent belief that he can only accept the “Laws” that he favors and ignore the rest is shared by many of his fellow GOP/TP. Indeed, the New Jersey governor is only the latest conservative leader of what is getting to be a long list and growing each day to claim that the courts can be ignored, or even punished, when they hand down decisions that the right doesn’t like:

And let us not forget Governor Walker’s defiance of his own Supreme Court that issued an injunction against the posting of his Bill and he went ahead and posted it anyway.

Court Packing: I posted this last week but it needs posting again. After the Florida Supreme Court tossed out a wildly unconstitutional ballot initiative attempting to nullify part of the Affordable Care Act, Florida House Speaker Dean Cannon (R) devised a plan that would neutralize three of the Florida Supreme Court’s democratic appointees and give right-wing Gov. Rick Scott (R) the ability to appoint several new justices. He also delegated the three senior judges appointed by a Democratic Governor to the criminal courts. If you can’t beat them then change the rules. I said it before and it needs saying again.

Court Stripping: Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) recently told a gathering of social conservatives in Iowa that Congress should strip the federal courts of their ability to hear marriage equality cases in order to prevent gay Americans from being afforded their constitutional right to “equal protection of the laws.” More gay bashing and the wholesale denial of rights based on a class of people. Are we seeing the pattern yet?

Abolishing Courts: The former GOP House Speaker Newt Gingrich proposed punishing the Ninth Circuit court of Appeals for upholding the constitutional separation of church and state by eliminating that court entirely, again if you can’t win by playing within the rules just change the rules.

Justice for Sale: We have a SCOTUS that instead of having nine impartial judges interrupting the laws, they are trying to write them from the bench. This should be no surprise since several of them are really GOP/TP fundraisers wearing Justice Robs. Remember the “Citizens United” decision that now allows elections to be bought for by undisclosed money from foreign and domestic entities. We no longer have open and fair elections without outside influence. Everything now has a price tag and the American People are paying the bill.

Buying Hate: Anti-gay hate groups spent hundreds of thousands of dollars last year to depose three of the seven justices who joined a unanimous marriage equality opinion in Iowa.

Tea Party Revenge: Florida Tea Partiers tried to depose two state Supreme Court justices to punish them for keeping an unconstitutional nullification initiative off the state’s ballot. Now they do not want to just change the rules (laws), they want to punish those people who follow the rules (laws).

What happen to the Party that claims to be a defender of the Constitution? Turns out they only support the amendments they like and want to repeal the ones they don’t. Not only are they assaulting our rights as citizens they also are turning their noses up at our “Laws” as well. This Nation as we know it is on a road to utter chaos and not just economically. We are watching our rights being stomped on. We are allowing politicians to only obey the laws they want and the he!! with those they do not agree with. We are watching them systematical create a “Class Based” Society of those that have and those that never will.

The Past - The Republican Party ran on the platform of wanting the President to Fail with a group of Entertainers as the Spearhead to spread their fear and smear.

The Present - The Republican Party are planning on running a group of people that do not know history (much less American History), they are purely entertainers, they are failed politicians, they are failed husbands, they are failed business people, they are failed moralists.

The Future - The Republican Party are out to damage the American Infrastructure of Liberty by betraying the oaths that made to ensure its prosperity. They dumb the intelligence of America down to a level of ignorance. There is no future in investing in the old, brittle ways of this piece of American psyche that does nothing for a prospering nation. Move Forward.

United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Great Post Ron, hope you do not mind if I tag along on yours.

Pleasure is mine "shipmate".

Good morning Ron

I hope Mr. and Mrs. Easter Bunny left you enough eggs.

I loved the priest's message yesterday speaking on againstg the repubs and Koch. Yea, Jesus was the original liberal.

Healthy Healing

Should we draw comfort from President Obama’s efforts to investigate and root out fraud or manipulation in oil and gas markets? There has been some solid growth in our emerging economies Speculation, not a shortage of oil, is causing higher prices. If the MSM would explain it more often, the gradual healing process in our country would discourage those blue, antagonizing, sick feelings..

The double irony the FOX NATION presents is constantly—President Obama can do no right –- President Obama can do no wrong. Precisely, this is because all the chatter at FOX NEWS is supposed to be anti-Obamanation. So they misstate and LIE about every thing; unless, of course, it’s the right wing’s domestic and foreign point of views (tax cuts for the rich and the nations in addition to the world collapsing) are all due to President Obama’s action or inaction. Oh what a mockery. The demagogues at FOX NEWS never stops since President Obama is completely to blame everytime.

But, the GOP/T-Baggers and FOX seldom mention that billions in tax breaks went to the energy companies and hardly any for alternative fuels. Neither does FOX mention the Bush administration to investigate whether oil companies are overcharging consumers at the gasoline pump and if speculators are pushing up fuel prices.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3815957.html

Brit Hume thinks President Obama Is "Content" To "Have Failure Be An Option" In Libya

Obama is pushing the U.S. deeper and deeper into the Libyan war

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/22/libya-war-drones/#ixzz1KX9Ww1n8

According to the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy (itepnet.org), undocumented workers paid billions in state and local taxes last year. GE, remember, paid NOTHIN

Humm, where did FOX’S Brite Hume get that source from I wonder? Perhaps Brite Hume might want to reference why, oh why, the Bush Presidential Library doesn’t have the aluminum tubes in it to justify GW Bus’s rational for going to war in Iraq. Maybe Bush didn’t care either since that was a lie.

The Tea Party has tilts national discussion from President Obama to the falling hero Paul Ryan. Why can’t FOX NOISE?

Shame on the Rev. Franklin Graham for warming upp to the notorious liar and serial divorcee, Donald Trump.

So why is Gitmo still open? Congress cut thepurse strings

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/22/2029364_p2/how-congress-thwarted-obamas-closing.html#ixzz1KXNgSGyp

The birds of prey at FOX NEWS need to fly into caves, take a break from criticism, and give the American public time to engage in healthy healing. Then, at least America will be kept at a safe distance.

Good morning everyone.

In honor of this week's Royal Wedding, some background. Not sure if I have got it all 100%, but tried to be as factual as I could.

_________________________________________

It’s so hard to believe but Queen Elizabeth II is 85 years old. Prince Philip will be 90 years old in June. We have followed them our entire lives.

April 1509

Henry the VIII: Henry Tudor became King of England. Henry the VIII. He was just shy of 18 years old. He was married six times, with his most famous wife of course being his second wife - Ann Boleyn. Together they had a daughter in 1533 and this daughter would become Queen Elizabeth I. I think it's safe to say that there's was not a happily ever after marriage. Among other things, Ann Boleyn was unable to produce a son, which is never a good thing in England. In 1536, to the Tower of London she went. Off with her head. Terrible. Daughters I guess just didn't carry much weight back then. This was before the days of Gigi and Maurice Chevalier - Thank Heaven For Little Girls. Executions by beheading back then were considered the least brutal of execution methods and were accorded to important State prisoners or people of noble birth. The usual implement used for beheading was the axe. Commoners were hanged.

The State of Virginia. There is speculation that the name Virginia refers to Queen Elizabeth I, Virgin Queen of England.

King Henry VIII had three children, 1 son & 2 daughters from an assortment of Queens, and neither of these children had any children of their own. Edward VI the son, succeeded Henry the VIII to the throne. He was 9 years old. He fell ill at a very young age and it was discovered to be terminal. He was just 15 years old when he died. Before he died, he named his cousin Lady Jane Grey as his heir to the throne. She was Queen for just 9 days. Mary, Queen of Scots {Bloody Mary}, daughter of Henry the VIII came along and had her beheaded for treason. Queen Mary ruled until her death and then the crown passed to Virgin Queen Elizabeth I. The direct line to Henry the VIII, The House of Tudor, was over with the death of Queen Elizabeth I, since she was a virgin. So today's royals are descendants of Henry the VIII's sister, Margaret Tudor. George V {grandson of Queen Victoria} changed the family name which was at the time Wettin, {Queen Victoria's husband Albert's name, of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha}.The reason for changing the name was because of WWI, anti-German feelings at the time. He wished for a more English sounding name. So in 1917, they became known as The House of Windsor.

The current Queen, Elizabeth II, is the great great granddaughter of Queen Victoria. It was Queen Elizabeth's uncle, King Edward VIII who abdicated the throne to marry American Mrs. Simpson. His brother (Queen Elizabeth's father) became King George VI, of The President's Speech fame. Elizabeth Alexandra Mary, House of Windsor, became Queen Elizabeth II on February 6, 1952. She was 25 years old. Her coronation did not occur until March 1953.

The Romanovs. Queen Victoria's daughter Victoria was the mother of German Emperor Kaiser Wilhelm II. Queen Victoria's granddaughter Alexandria was the wife of Nicholas II Emperor, last Tsar of Russia. In 1918, during the Russian Revolution, the Tsar and his entire family were shot, including their daughter Anastasia. Queen Victoria's daughter Alice's granddaughter is Prince Philip's mother. DNA from Prince Philip proved that Anna Anderson, who claimed to be Anastasia, was false. There had been speculation for quite sometime that perhaps Anastasia had survived the massacre. They were shot in what was known as the Ipatiev House in Yekaterinburg. The city was named after Catherine the Great. Yekaterinburg was renamed Sverdlovsk, from 1921-1991, named after Yako Sverdlov, the man who signed the telegram ordering the massacre of the family. According to Leon Trotsky, Founder of The Red Army, he was personally told that the orders came directly from Lenin. With the 60th anniversary of the massacre coming up in 1978, Leonid Brezhnev's Politburo in 1975 decided that the house in Yekaterinburg was to be torn down, deeming it of no historical value. The real reason obviously was because of the interest this house was generating as the anniversary approached. The directive to tear down the house was signed by Yutri Andropov, KBG and this directive was passed down to Boris Yeltsin for execution, who was a party member in Sverdlovsk. The house was destroyed in July 1977.

The burial site of the Tsar's family in the Koptyaki Forest was located in 1979 by an Yekaterinburg born investigator, together with a filmmaker. They based their search on the Official Report of Yako Yurovsky, Commandant of the Ipatiev House and one of the executioners, who wrote his story down in February 1934. The two gentlemen who located the grave kept their story secret for 10 years, until the days of Gorbachev, when they finally gave their story to the Moscow News. A Cathedral was built on the site of the Yekaterinburg house.

In 1998, the 80th anniversary of the massacre, the remaining descendents of the family gathered in St. Petersburg for the reburial of the remains. At the services then President Boris Yeltsin said: "We have been silent too long about this monstrous crime and that we must say the truth: The Yekaterinburg massacre has become one of the most shameful episodes in our history." Two of the children's remains were not included, as their remains had yet to be found. It wasn't until 2007 that the remains of Alexei and Maria were found not far from the main grave.

Michael Romanoff. Was the owner of a very popular restaurant in Beverly Hills, CA in the 1940's/'50's called Romanoff's. Hollywood's elite hung out there. Mr. Romanoff claimed to be of Russian Royalty - a Prince and the nephew of Tsar Nicholas II. In fact, he was born in Lithuania, immigrated to NYC at age 10, changed his name to Harry Gurguson and became a pants presser in Brooklyn.

Boris Yeltsin. On February 1, 2011 Russian President Dmitry Medvedev unveiled a monument to Boris Yeltsin, on what would have been his 80th Birthday. Despite talks of his heavy drinking and bad economic times in Russia, Yeltsin is credited with bringing democracy to Russia with the fall of communism. President Clinton is credited as having a major impact on the road to democracy in Russia, together with Boris Yeltsin. Vladimir Putin and President Bush it has been reported both played a role in turning back the clock in Russia. President Bush, by simply ignoring the curtailment of democratic policies while Putin was in office. Vladimir Putin was not invited to the unveiling of the monument for Boris Yeltsin. The dedication to Mr. Yeltsin took place in Yekaterinburg, the place of Boris Yeltsin's birth.

Gary Powers. American spy Gary Powers was shot down on May 1, 1960 over the city of Sverdlovsk, now known as Yekaterinburg.

_______________________________________________________

Long Live The Queen. A Remarkable Life. And may the current lovely Royal couple {which they are} have a wonderful life.

I loved the priest's message yesterday speaking on against the repubs and Koch. Yea, Jesus was the original liberal.

Um, Navy? You are wring on what happened in New Jersey.

A suit was brought by an education interest group challenging Christie's billion dollar cut to education. The Supreme Court heard arguments, and then asked a special master, a retired Superior Court judge, to evaluate the cuts, their impact, and put them I. Context with the state's financial circumstances.

Needless to say, he ignored the last part of his directive.

His report has no impact, other than an advisory one, on the court. It is up to the Supreme court to issue a ruling- he only issued a finding.

Next time, do a little research.

RONNY -- We as dem filibustered against civil rights. Al Gore Sr., Sen Byrd,etc filibustered for many hours AGAINST civil rights. We lost that battle to the Republican party. That's why Martin Luther King, Coretta Scott KIng,Dorothy Heigt(civil rights activist,Head of NCNW) were REPUBLICANS.

Wow Ron, I'm surprised to see you mentioning Ayn Rand on the same day I did. The fraud and welfare queen has an outsized influence on the GOPTP, a corrosive influence that encourages selfishness and is frankly at odds with the spirit that made the United States great. Ironic that Conservatives see as their guiding light an egotistical Russian immigrant who couldn't even manage to support herself in this country.

njnbnj: Next time, do a little research

Research was done, at thinkprogress. Most of the post is a direct copy and paste.

Source: http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/22/christie-defy-court-order and http://thinkprogress.org/author/Ian%20M.

If you can't trust thinkprogress, who can you trust?

Spin Spin Spin. Here you want some facts try this on for size.

People, the GOP/TP is on a historical course to take away many of our constitutional rights, like our rights to vote, freedom of religion and speech, women’s rights, our freedom for open and fair elections free from outside interference, and a bevy of others many of us have written about. The GOP/TP envisions a “Class Based” Society for this Nation based on those that have and those that will never have. They are repealing Health Care for the elderly, sick, disabled and those of modest means. Oh, they are cloaking it in “Financial Conservatism” but at what cost? Millions and Millions of people will be left in the street to fend for themselves with no Health Care, No hope, No nothing. This ideology is going to put many people in harms way and some will die because they cannot get the Health Care they need at a time they will need it the most. Some will die just because they cannot have access to preventive medicine which could starve off pending medical issues or those with pre-existing conditions that a treatable but will not have the appropriate access. This is a cold hearted attempt to destroy a “class” of people, we call them the “Middle Class” and they are the very people that built this great nation. This is how we are going to reward them??

We saw this very same ideology in Europe decades ago where they tried to destroy a race (“CLASS”) of people. The GOP/TP is doing the very same thing here. Show me the difference, as the net result will be the same.

This is crap. The bottom line is people are going to have trouble getting affordable and meaningful Health Care, period. My brother in law died from diabetes and he had the best care possible. How do you think those that could not get this level of care will fare? I was with him when the disease took one of his legs, and his kidneys failed. I was at his funeral and spoke for him.

This is just not right people and I do not care how you try and sugar coat it or how you try and hide the facts that denying qualified Health Care to those in need is morally wrong and it will kill. That is the bottom line. And for what, to give a select group of people more wealth and power? That road has been traveled before and it was paved with bodies, do we really want to go down it again????

Yes, it is time for truth...the Conservative narrative on civil rights is a misrepresentation of the true situation. Yes, the Civil Rights Act only passed through the votes of Republicans, but these were Liberal Republicans. Neither party is as it was at that time. Dixiecrats quickly quit their party when their Democratic president refused to endorse their bigotry. Richard Nixon, on the other hand, was happy to pander to it with his Southern Strategy. Homeless Dixiecrats became Republicans, and starting with Reagan Republicans toward the left of their party were shoved out, some to become Democrats.

The statement that today's Conservative Movement is heir to the legacy of the Civil Rights Movement is an unabashed lie.

Um, Navy? You are wring on what happened in New Jersey.

No offense if we don't take your word for it... *wink wink*

After all your 'reputation' of being factual & truth full leaves much to be desired...

Same thing for JS1 - who has a nasty habit of getting caught in her BS and then pulling a 'Houdini'!

Want a laugh?

Think Progress: And finally: Hollywood train wreck Charlie Sheen doesn’t want you to vote for potential presidential candidate Donald Trump, but not because of Trump’s birtherism. Sheen told an audience that Trump once gave Sheen a pair of faux cufflinks that Trump had said were platinum-and-diamond Harry Winstons worth $100,000. But when Sheen got the cufflinks appraised, he found out they were “**** tin,” worth about $60.

Wonderful job, Pat on the history of the Royals. Alexandra of Russia (Alix, daughter of Grand Duke and Duchess Louis of Hesse, her mother Alice was daughter to Victoria and nursed her father, Albert during his final illness.) lost her mother, at a young age. Queen Victoria saw herself as surrogate mother to the Hesse children, Alix being her favorite grand daughter. The Queen, though she liked Nicholas II personally, was against the marriage, and warned Alix, to the last, trying to talk her out of the marriage. Alix, who was raised to understand the importance of a Constitutional Monarcy, became more autocratic then the autocrats, some say due to the illness of her son. She and Nicholas married right after the death of Nicholas' father, and it was considered by some to be bad luck.

Most of the post is a direct copy and paste.

And yet no effort to refute ANY of the facts contained in the post. It's the facts that matter. Attacking the source without proving it wrong is only tacit admission of its accuracy.

Ron:

It's easy to say what the 2012 election is NOT about. It will not be about Trump, or the birthers, or gay marriage, or even about raising the national debt ceiling. Some say it will be about the size of government, but more accurately it will be about the PURPOSE of government.

Good morning, Ron. Forgive me if I disagree with you a little here. The 2012 election will be about the purpose of government to those who care about such things, or more accurately, pay attention to such things. To others, it may well be about Trump, the birthers, gay marriage, or whatever wedge issue happens to be placed in front of them next year.

The message seems to be that in order to make the 2012 election about SOMETHING, rather than more of the same nothing, democrats have to seize control of the message. Obviously, that will be up to President Obama.

I have said before here, and I think it bears repeating, when I looked at the democratic and republican candidates during the 2008 primary season, I would have chosen any one of the democrats over any one of the republicans. But the republicans seem to have dug down deep, and I don't mean that in a good way, because now I would prefer any one of the republican candidates of 2008 to any of the republican candidates now. But that won't matter much if the right wedge issue emerges.

In addition, we need to be careful not to make too much -- or too little -- of Donald Trump. The media is already making this mistake. Whether intentionally, or unintentionally, he may be performing a very valuable service for the remainder of the candidates by acting as a magnet for the media, thus allowing the others to remain under the radar until 2012, when one of them can emerge, primed for whatever issues are important then, and mostly untainted by having already said too much.

In short, Trump may be, for all intents and purposes, the Trojan horse of the party, hiding a lethal surprise inside.

In closing, I thought it might be good to put a face on all the stories that are beginning to emerge of the casualties of Scott Walker's draconian collective bargaining legislation. As I understand it, nearly 130 teachers in my school district alone, all qualified and experienced veterans. I'll challenge conservatives here to make an attack on this particular teacher as being a lazy, free-loading "slob," as Glenn Grothman called public workers (not realizing as he did so, in his typical clueless way, that he was insulting his own father's lifelong career as an attorney in government practice).

By the way, this man remembers the days before teachers had collective bargaining, and didn't find them particularly equitable, either.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/article_fa4f2fc6-6d16-11e0-b06a-001cc4c03286.html

Jones started teaching before the 1976 teachers strike. He was shocked by the low pay and what he calls a "good ol' boys club" approach to administrator evaluations as opposed to the union negotiating equitably for all the teachers.

People like this man will not be easy to replace.

Be proud, conservatives. And look, if you dare, at the face of someone you drove out of the career he loved for a pay-off that is never going to happen. There are many more like him. You've done your job well.

Be proud.

John B:

We are often on the same wavelength. I enjoyed your post very much.

John B:

The facts are the facts no matter where they come from. The right has yet to understand that. They are of the opinionthat if theydid not say it then it is not true. If theycannot rebut the truth then theyattack the messenger and try and spin it. We saw an example of this already today. These people are so full of themselves it is a miracle that they can even move.

It never changes, but the "Sleeper has awakened" and the people are pretty much feed up with it all.

President Obama in 2012.

Ron Indiana

I went to a talk last year by Anne Conover Heller, who has written a very objective and well researched biography of Ayn Rand. I highly recommend her book (this is not advertising, I don't prsonally know this author.) Rand was a more complicated character than her fans know her to be. She was an atheist and supporter of abortion rights, as well as a creative thinker, passionate idealist and emotionally destructive narcissist. She was a libertarian who hated Libertarians. She did not appreciate her followers. In Rand's mind, any group is inherently dangerous, even a group of Libertarians! (To that, I would agree.)

Good Morning Anna Molly:

Like good Democrats, we can think for ourselves and come up with slightly different conclusions. I will not debate my favorite attorney. You will almost always win.

Amy:

Thanks for the information. I've read her work but have not rearched Rand's personal life. She does indeed sound complicated...and maybe a bit crazy.

Ron, US Navy, Beverly--well said. Pat, our historian, terrific post.

The GOP/TP has taken the debt ceiling and turned it into the equivalent of their 2010 "job, jobs, jobs" motto. They never mention that under the Bush 43 administration the debt ceiling was raised seven (7) times. Where were the Tea Party activists protesting the increasing debt and increasing the debt ceiling during those years? Where were these "conscience" republicans in Congress during the Bush 43 years who now speak of nothing except the debt today? BTW, how many jobs have the republicans created since they won? How many "jobs bills" have they passed?

In Iowa, the Republicans failed to get a debate on their "impeachment" legislation against the four remaining Iowa Supreme Court Justices who were part of the unanimous gay marriage decision. Thankfully, another year will pass without the anti-gay hate groups and the legislators who feel the same, succeeding.

For all the comments on how reducing spending is somehow throwing people on the streets, I despair at what you think the problem is.

David Brooks stated on Sunday that the average person pays $150,000 into Medicare. They get $450,000 out of the system. The difference of $300,000 is debt that will be picked up by they're grandkids.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42738206#42738312

You think this is sustainable? C'mon Ron and Navy tell me khow these numbers work?

On poverty and welfare

"Yet, by 2008, Robert Rector of Heritage reports that total welfare spending already amounted to $16,800 per person in poverty, 4 times as much as the Census Bureau estimated was necessary to bring all of the poor up to the poverty level, eliminating all poverty in America. That would be $50,400 per poor family of three."

blogs.forbes.com/peterferrara/2011/04/22/americas-ever-expanding-welfare-empire/

Now you can go back and fact check these statements but assuming they are true how is this sustainable?

We currently have President Obama implying that by taxing the rich a "little more" we can maintain these programs in their current form. This is a flat out lie. We have to tax everyone a lot more and still cut deeply into these programs.

Why will the Democrats not come up with a budget that contains the true taxes required to pay for their programs?

BTW Pat, Mary Queen of Scots and Bloody Mary are different. Mary Queen of Scots was the daughter of Henry's sister who married James V of Scotland.

JoAnna:

If you can't trust thinkprogress, who can you trust?

Beats me. Wouldn't be you.

Ron:

You will almost always win.

LoL Spoken like a true attorney, with emphasis on almost.

"From blanket health insurance to long vacations and early retirement, the cozy social benefits that have been a way of life in Western Europe since World War II increasingly appear to be luxuries the continent can no longer afford. Particularly since the global economic crisis erupted in 2008, benefits have begun to stagnate or shrink in the face of exploding government deficits."

So begins a piece in the Washington Post this morning about the new fiscal reality that is enveloping the Old World. The same fiscal reality that is enveloping us. Erskine Bowles has testified that our looming train wreck is "the most predictable economic crisis" in our history. CBO has made the point in several of its publication that loss of confidence in U.S. debt can happen swiftly, with interest rates rising sharply almost overnight. And the president's own debt commission as well as numerous others have come to the same basic conclusions.

But the leftist around here ignore all that. To them the word "unsustainable" has no meaning in a world view base upon a spend-until-you-drop ideology rationalized by utopian notions of providing for every need of every citizen. And along the way they distort and lie by making charges about Republican intentions which are flat out not true. So instead of nurturing an atmosphere that enables a meeting of rational minds to figure out the best way to deal with this problem, the left instead reverts to its true form of divisive partisanship that does more to push us apart than unite us in common cause.

The president is doing the same thing. His class warfare strategy may ultimately turn out to be the yellow brick road that leads to his reelection. But his prize will be to preside over a tarnished country that's only a shadow of its former self. And that wouldn't be a good thing for any of us.

JOHN B. Be honest I'm a dem we you can try to change history or try to change minds WE FILIBUSTERED AGAINST Civlil Rights. Our Party has changed but let's be honest hereback then we were against civil rights as a party. Don't lie to try and make yourself feel better.

Lincoln also gets a lot of credit for freeing the slaves (somewhat just) but he wasn't exactly perfect either it was a political move so don't re-write the past learn from it. I'm still a dem even though our past isn't squeaky clean.

Let's see here. We have Ayn Rand, who has written the consummate sociopath handbooks, Anthem, Fountainhead, and Atlas Shrugged being held out as the foundation of the right. Basically, the teachings of the Holy Bible's New Testament are being proffered as the guidebook of the progressive left. Sort of a Brother's Keeper or Brother's as Competitor dichotomy.

Hello Oz. Hello rabbit hole.

This is America, and like it or not, our mixed economy - a fairly healthy mix of socialism and capitalism - has generally served us well. Problem is we don't think we ever have to pay back our loans.

Well, you know what? Senators Conrad and Coburn spelled it our quite clearly. Son of one gun - THE TRUTH. ON NATIONAL TELEVISION. RIGHT THERE FOR ALL TO SEE. A Republican and a Democrat. Coburn didn't call Conrad names, and Conrad didn't call Coburn names. They did seem to notice we have a problem, and both clearly indicated that we are going to have both revenue increases and spending cuts. I don't like Coburn's "moral" focus, but here's a guy who told Grover Norquist to go to hell on ethanol subsidies. That's guts for a Republican - big time. Conrad came right out and said we have to reform SS and Medicare/Medicaid. That's guts for a Democrat - big time.

It doesn't matter who was in charge when we got into this mess. In fact, if you take a good honest look at this mess, it looks like NO ONE was in charge. Someone - that would be us - gave the kids a credit card, and they went nuts. Let's all step up here and take the blame on our own shoulders; that's where it belongs. You too, Tea Party holier-than-thou types. You were there when this was going on. I didn't hear you screaming when word came from on high that, "Deficits don't matter."

There's still hope for the Republic.

John B, Des Moines Iowa: And yet no effort to refute ANY of the facts contained in the post.

Two things. 1) It was plagiarism. 2) Of all the left-wing moon-bat sites, thinkprogress runs in the top 3 with both Soros financing that site and left wing ideologue John Podesta running the site. If you choose to believe the fairy tales those two tell you, you do so at your own risk.

@David Walker

Agreed on Conrad and Coburn. It's time to put country first.

Alan, NJ: We currently have President Obama implying that by taxing the rich a "little more" we can maintain these programs [Medicare/SS] in their current form. This is a flat out lie.

That it is. But Obama was never good at math, so he may believe what ever he blurts out. What Obama does know is that when he states these lies, it gets his low-information voter base (who are also math challenged) fired up and ready to go (although it's not clear where they're going). It's what a populist does, bends the truth and tells the lies to get the base vote.

t4t, I've acknowledged the power of the Dixiecrats in the Congress of the early 1960s. That party just doesn't exist anymore. The Republican party of 1964 doesn't exist anymore. Powerful forces were set into motion by people who insisted on doing the right thing. As Lyndon Johnson observed after signing the Civil Rights Act, "We have lost the South for at least a generation." It's been 2 generations now, the Democratic Party paid a heavy price in terms of political power, but it was still right of Johnson to push it through.

Refute the facts, JAS. That's all that was asked of you.

Breaking News:

SCOTUS says NO to fast track Affordable Care Act to the SC, bypassing the appeals process.

Oh JoAnnaSmith be careful what you say about plagiarism. Liberals on FR don't think there's anything wrong with it. I said the exact same thing about Jody the other day and all of her buddies rush to defend her, well not all of them, but they tried to defend the plagiarism by saying I haven't been on FR long enough to understand. Honestly, I don't think they understand plagiarism, maybe the good Lawyer Anna can explain it better. But I'm thinking she won't since it's her friends that do it. Not really an ethical issue when it's their friends.

Plagiarism is not in their vocabulary, JS1. Neither is original thought.

I see that today's talking point is AYN RAND, for heaven's sake- not her philosophy, (only parts of which I agree with), but her messy personal life.

Are we not the same people who decried the misdirected interest into Clinton's personal life? I will add JFK, FDR, and, yes, even Joh Edwards to the list. People's personal lives are just that - personal- and have little if anything to do with their public lives. Please do not hand me the "if they lie to their spouses, they will lie to us" routine. In case you had not noticed, we do not have the same relationship as spouses.

So, if a politician cheats on his or her taxes, takes bribes, drives while intoxicated, takes illegal drugs, embezzles money, takes illegal campaign contributions, sells his or her vote- I want to know about it.

If they cheat on their spouses, it is none of my business, and I DO NOT want to be involved.

Clear enough?

Let us try a different topic- a non- partisan, independent group has just evaluated Obama's "deficit reduction plan"- and found it severely lacking in deficit reduction.

Think our intrepid reporters on this site might actually do a story on it?

It sure beats the Egg Roll report.

For some reason the URL for my post above did not copy over. It is attached below. I had to type it in for some reason.

{{http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/22/christie-defy-court-order/}}

JoAnna:

.... Of all the left-wing moon-bat sites, thinkprogress runs in the top 3 with both Soros financing that site and left wing ideologue John Podesta running the site. If you choose to believe the fairy tales those two tell you, you do so at your own risk.

And what would you tell the Koch brothers' employees upon receiving the package of propaganda from their employers that was reported in the press last week?

As for ideologue, wasn't Fred Koch, the father of the Koch brothers an original member of the John Birch society? Why yes, I think he was. Look it up.

And how about these few tidbits of information about the Koch boys, easily gleaned from Wikipedia:

[David] Koch was the Libertarian Party's vice-presidential candidate in the 1980 presidential election, sharing the party ticket with presidential candidate Ed Clark. The Clark–Koch ticket promised to abolish Social Security, the Federal Reserve Board, welfare, minimum-wage laws, corporate taxes, all price supports and subsidies for agriculture and business, and U.S. Federal agencies including the SEC, EPA, ICC, FTC, OSHA, FBI, CIA, and DOE.^[2][12] The ticket proposed legalization of prostitution, recreational drugs, and suicide.^[2] The ticket received 921,128 votes, 1.06% of the total nationwide vote,^[13] the Libertarian Party national ticket's best showing to date.^[14] The Koch brothers were proud of what they had accomplished. “Compared to what [the Libertarians had] gotten before,” Charles said, “and where we were as a movement or as a political/ideological point of view, that was pretty remarkable, to get 1 percent of the vote.”^[15]

After the bid, according to a book by Brian Doherty, an editor of Reason magazine, David and his brother Charles viewed politicians as "actors playing out a script" and they wanted to "supply the themes and words for the scripts" by influencing "the areas where policy ideas percolate from: academia and think tanks".

If that's what YOU prefer to believe, then you do so at your own peril, as well.

BTW-- You may not approve of Wikipedia as a source, but that's way too easy an argument. Instead, why don't you come up with some contrary facts of your own, from reliable sources.

Can't? Not surprised.

Scott Walker: Don't blame me. I'm just acting out the script handed to me by the Koch brothers.

Navy,

The bottom line is people are going to have trouble getting affordable and meaningful Health Care,

And do you really think that a government run health care program works. Which one?

Who gave us mandated health insurance? The Democratic party--who will we have to purchase it from? "For Profit" companies--who gets the kickbacks--Democratic party leaders--Where are the regulations for the cost of insurance?

What we have is a bunch of politicians that are taking money from corporations and getting rich off it. You complain that the middle class is being stolen, it might be, but from both parties. The only difference is that you and others have fallen into this government "nanny" state belief. We are helping others. What we are doing is helping others stay down.

Bill, with all due respect, I think your conclusion is wrong. If you had been at my family Easter gathering, you would know that Obama is doing a lot worse than even the polls suggest.

I knew that I was right about my predictions on the outcome of the mid- terms when my uncle and his partner declared themselves"republicrats"- fiscal conservative, social liberals. They had worked for democrats for twenty years- harassing members of the family who they knew voted republican, as well as those members who always vote third party- those who find OBAMA too conservative.

The latter group are looking for this election's Ralph Nader. The rest of the democrats had voted republican last November, and some say they will vote republican next year- even if TRUMP is the nominee. The rest will sit out.

What happened? Well, for some of them, it was the ill conceived Libya invasion. For others, the failed stimulus, which increased the debt but little else, the massive spending, and the seeming directionless policies were bad- and the S & P downgrade was the last straw.

I come from a Union family- but, we are Yankees, so thrift is part of our heritage. So, we have police officers, teachers, and private sector union members- all of whom agree that the unions have not served them well. My niece, an English teacher, told the story of her AP English students, who believed that Pearl Harbor ignited THE VIETNAM WAR.

When she happened to mention this to the history teachers, they were nonplussed. Seems it is not on any of the tests.

She, too, regaled us with horror stories of teachers who show movies, hand out work sheets, and then read novels at their desks. She is helping some of the freshmen with their Algebra- on her own time- because their teacher is inept.

That teacher also has ten, so one has to hope she robs a bank so that she can be fired. Ineptitude is not enough.

All of this, I should tell you, is in a fairly wealthy suburban district. Parents are outraged, but there is little they can do. The teachers' response is always that the parents blame them when they should be blaming the students.

I got news for you- these people are paid to TEACH, not read novels. Or play around on their iPads.

Anyway, when you lose the democratic- and uber liberal- wing of my family, you do not have much "hope" left.

Seems like people are looking for a change.

"Scott Walker: Don't blame me. I'm just acting out the script handed to me by the Koch brothers."

Did Scott Walker really say that or did you make that up? Wikipedia?? hehe and you're a Lawyer? Well if you're on FR on a Monday morning I guess you're not doing too well.

AM: And what would you tell the Koch brothers' employees upon receiving the package of propaganda from their employers that was reported in the press last week?

Got a site for that? Thinkprogress again, right?

And really now, what exactly is your point? You have a group of Liberal posters here that plagiarize left wing propaganda sites and print the work was their own. What exactly is trying to be proved by that behavior?

AM: BTW-- You may not approve of Wikipedia as a source, but that's way too easy an argument. Instead, why don't you come up with some contrary facts of your own, from reliable sources.

Can't? Not surprised.

Back to having conversations with yourself I see, and with the usual straw-man arguments. And you seem to be fascinated by Koch today.

Ah yes, let's talk about the philosophy of Ayn Rand, closet welfare queen;

The philosophy, such as it was, which Rand laid out in her novels and essays was a frightful concoction of hyper-egotism, power-worship and anarcho-capitalism. She opposed all forms of welfare, unemployment insurance, support for the poor and middle-class, regulation of industry and government provision for roads or other infrastructure. She also insisted that law enforcement, defense and the courts were the only appropriate arenas for government, and that all taxation should be p urely voluntary. Her view of economics starkly divided the world into a contest between "moochers" and "producers," with the small group making up the latter generally composed of the spectacularly wealthy, the successful, and the titans of industry. The "moochers" were more or less everyone else, leading TNR's Jonathan Chait to describe Rand's thinking as a kind of inverted Marxism. Marx considered wealth creation to result solely from the labor of the masses, and viewed the owners of capital and the economic elite to be parasites feeding off that labor. Rand simply reversed that value judgment, applying the role of "parasite" to everyday working people instead. On the level of personal behavior, the heroes in Rand's novels commit borderline rape, blow up buildings, and dynamite oil fields -- actions which Rand portrays as admirable and virtuous fulfillments of the characters' personal will and desires. Her early diaries gush with admiration for William Hickman, a serial killer who raped and murdered a young girl. Hickman showed no understanding of "the necessity, meaning or importance of other people," a trait Rand apparently found quite admirable. For good measure, Rand dismissed the feminist movement as "false" and "phony," denigrated both Arabs and Native Americans as "savages" (going so far as to say the latter had no rights and that Europeans were right to take North American lands by force) and expressed horror that taxpayer money was being spent on government programs aimed at educating "subnormal children" and helping the handicapped. Needless to say, when Rand told Mike Wallace in 1953 that altruism was evil, that selfishness is a virtue, and that anyone who succumbs to weakness or frailty is unworthy of love, she meant it.

http://northdenvernews.com/content/view/2272/2/

Altruism is evil, selfishness is a virtue. No wonder leaders of the Conservative movement find her some compelling. She fulfills their need to justify their own selfishness.

Ron,

So, we are to believe that all democrats are "their brother's keeper".

do not believe the Christian message that we are our brother's keeper.

Are these that same democrats that believe in gay marriage? Which is strictly against the Christian beliefs of the bible.

Ephesians 4:28

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

thinkprogress runs in the top 3 with both Soros financing that site and left wing ideologue John Podesta running the site. If you choose to believe the fairy tales those two tell you, you do so at your own risk.

It's truly amusing way the leftists around here consistently copy and paste materials from their ideological icons like ThinkProgress, Media Matters or – drum roll please – Paul Krugman. Good grief, is that super biased trash supposed to make Republicans or independents reconsider their positions?

If right thinking folks were to post material from a Karl Rove article (which I've done only once, if memory serves), whatever he had to say would be DOA the instant it hit the board. That's kind of the way I feel whenever I see something from ThinkProgress or that jackass Krugman. I immediately tune it out because those sources aren't the slightest bit objective. Sort of like the FR spin doctors, come to think of it.

But the real amusement comes from the way the leftists around here preach their gospel of thinking for themselves on the one hand, but then routinely cite sources that do their thinking for them on the other hand. What's even funnier is the way certain folks (and we all know who they are) copy and paste from these sources AT LENGTH -- a tactic that unmistakably exposes the limitations of their ability to craft their own arguments. And occasionally even exposes them as frauds who haven't bothered to read the junk they post, doncha know.

Actually, we should cut these folks some slack. It's a proven fact that OD'ing on the kool aid fries the brain, and even if they suddenly went cold turkey it might take a while before any clarity returned to their thinking. Or at least what passes for thinking from these folks. Maybe it's time to drop a few Rove quotes or today's bogeyman Ayn Rand, just to get 'em all lathered up. Then we can all be amused even more.

NDD, Jody & Beverly: Thanks. I do love history, no matter the subject.

I can't believe Prince Philip is 90 years old.

I'm not a fan of royalty, but I have always liked Queen Elizabeth.

BB: So, we are to believe that all democrats are "their brother's keeper".

They sure are. You can seem then at many of our gas stations today, standing there at the ready with their credit cards, paying for their "brothers" gas.

Amazing people those Democrats.

why the constant need to generalize, JoAnna?

So saving a 150 Billion PER YEAR by not renewing the Tax Cuts for the richest 2% will have no effect. That would be 1.5 Trillion over the next decade. How much of an effect did the 38 Billion have??

echo82,

According to her own definition of populist - apparently she's a populist. But not in the 'root' word meaning of the word.

Too much fodder for this working girl today. Will have to get back on tonight and make a dent. In summary, facts to the left of me - jokers to the right,...

Stuck in the middle,...

Your arguments are really boring, one sided and too predictable. I'm retired navy also. Try to balance your talking points with facts.

Navy,

You know that is all an estimate. Those rich will find a way to keep their taxes low.

So saving a 150 Billion PER YEAR by not renewing the Tax Cuts for the richest 2% will have no effect. That would be 1.5 Trillion over the next decade. How much of an effect did the 38 Billion have??

Until we get real tax reform, those folks will only pay enough to stay out of jail. Rid ourselves of deductions, loopholes, and etc...

JoAnna:

Got a site for that? Thinkprogress again, right?

How about the Seattle Times, winner of 8 Pulitzer prizes, and certainly not left-slanted -- at least not this particular article. The left-slanted paper in Seattle is, I believe, the Post-Intelligencer.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politicsnorthwest/2014829485_koch_sent_washington_election.html

I'm surprised you didn't know. But apparently it wasn't last week, as I had mistakenly assumed, but rather before the election in November.

You can poo-poo its effects all you want. But then the question becomes, why did they do it?

Anyway. I'm not fixated on the Kochs, any more than you're fixated on George Soros. Projection much? The Koch brothers are not my particular cup of tea. My point is merely that indoctrination occurs on both sides. Every time I see someone mention George Soros, it seems only appropriate to mention the Koch brothers. They're infinitely richer and even more politically active than Soros.

Or didn't you know that, either? Hmm ... it's been in ALL the papers.

So, what part do YOU play in their little drama? Medusa? And how long did it take you to learn your lines?

You have them down so well.

BigBear:

Are these that same democrats that believe in gay marriage? Which is strictly against the Christian beliefs of the bible.

Really?! Well. In that case, you might like to know that David Koch does not oppose gay marriage. Or, at least didn't, when he called himself a libertarian, back in the days before Ron Paul started calling for an end of all taxes. (You can read about it in my link up above.)

He must be a heathen, too.

Hmmm ..... I wonder if Scott Walker knows. Like George Bush, Walker thinks God drives the agenda.

As you can see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality even the Christian denominations aren't in agreement on the subject of homosexuality.

A bit off-topic I suppose, but with all the Ayn Rand talk...

A movie of "Atlas Shrugged" was made (I assume straight to DVD, since I didn't hear about it), and Roger Ebert wrote a very enjoyable review. From the review:

"And now I am faced with this movie, the most anticlimactic non-event since Geraldo Rivera broke into Al Capone’s vault. I suspect only someone very familiar with Rand’s 1957 novel could understand the film at all, and I doubt they will be happy with it."

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110414/REVIEWS/110419990

To the liberals: Yada yada yada... complain, grumble, namecall, demean, disassociate, slander, diminish, believe you are only correct... I've heard it all before. You liberals still don't get it do you?

$14 TRILLION IN DEBT!!!

The last $4 TRILLION caused by Obama. He is NOT heading us in the right direction. He is taking ALL of us over the cliff. You just don't see it, do you? All you want to do is blame republicans. This is getting rediculous. The driver of the bus is blind or he's a meniacle fiend!

How you liberals can support Obama is beyond me. We are heading for a crash of epic proportions and the leader of this nation is taking us there in lightspeed. It is NOT corporations... it is NOT big business - what would it benefit them if our economy fails? Ask yourself the question... what would it benefit Obama if our economy fails? The rule of law would crumble and he would still have control over the military. Think people!!! 1932 Germany come to mind? We all know how well that ended.

Wake UP America!!! Please!

John B. - Maybe Christians can't agree on it because some of them belong to the church of Laceodea. If you aren't familiar with this Church, then the information is useless to you. Laceodea isn't so much an actual church as it is a way of teaching non-truth with semi-truth. People are easily deceived.

In plain speak concerning homosexuality, and the reason a lot of liberals hate Christians, look up the following Biblical text concerning homosexuality.

I Corintians 6:9

I Timothy 1:10

Leviticus 18:22

Maybe you will understand why homosexuality can not mix with being a Christian. Remember, I didn't write these passages, but I do understand them and I don't think they are up for interpretation. What it leaves is one thing. Choice. You either accept them for what they are, or you don't. It's not my place to tell you or anyone else to accept them... that is solely left up to you and any individual who happens across them.

brian - the libs wouldn't want you to forget bush, they say he added $5 trillion to the debt.

It is all rather meaningless if one can't come up with an effective plan to get our debt down to a sustainable level.

american,

You mean like the Ryan plan that adds another $6 trillion to the National debt and is based on 3% unemployment?

Brianb, I am a Christian. I'm also a Liberal. You're not entitled to tell me what I should or should not believe as a Christian. I've already presented the evidence that not all Christian denominations deal with homosexuality in the same way. There's enough disagreement on the subject that Fred Phelps and his band of merry morons from the Westboro Baptist Church regularly pickets the United Church of Christ, a mainline Christian denomination.

You're entitled to believe what you like. Telling me what I can or must believe as a Christian is over the line. Deal with it.

John B, instead of being so defensive, try reading what I wrote concerning telling anyone what they can believe. You completely misconstrued the point I was making that I can not tell anyone what to believe.

Here's what I wrote: What it leaves is one thing. Choice. You either accept them for what they are, or you don't. It's not my place to tell you or anyone else to accept them... that is solely left up to you and any individual who happens across them.

Savvy?

Brian, perhaps I overreacted to the passages "Liberals hate Christians" and "homosexuality can not mix with being a Christian." For that I apologize. Those statements simply aren't factual, yet many who call themselves Christians believe they speak for ALL Christians. Many Liberals ARE Christians and homosexuality is not an issue upon which all Christians agree.

I confess to being sensitive on the issue because no one is allowed to speak for the legitimacy of my faith.

I suppose anyone can have their own opinions about the bible. What is suppose to be leading the Christian Faith. Not what a denomination believes. I guess that is why we have so many different denominations.

Like to get to heaven as a catholic, you have to confess to a priest. Why? Can't you just ask Jesus for forgiveness, isn't he the one that grants that. Or have we become so lazy that we expect a Priest/Bishop to do it for us?

But then again, everything is open to interpretation.

Such as an "eye for an eye", yet "thou shalt not kill"--Does this mean that for every tax dollar I pay, that I should get one back:)

Another favorite is, If Cain killed Abel, and went off to marry--who'd he marry? Heck, according to the Bible there were only 4 folks on earth.

I love Bible Monday's

John B. If you read the posts on the vine, you will find more dispairaging remarks about Christians from the liberals. While it may not be true that all liberals hate Christians, it sure seems that way. I hardly ever hear a negative remark about Christianity from the conservative side. I guess I overstretched a bit. It is my belief that homosexuality can't mix with Christianity based on the scriptures I referenced. Like I said before, I didn't write them. I have several homosexual acquaintances and I treat them like I do anyone else I know... no different. It's not up to me to do the judging.. all I can do is make reference.

Fair enough Brian. The Evangelical Fundamentalist group of denominations makes the most public noise these days, and as such the unchurched probably identify predominantly as the face of Christianity. Pity, it's a big world with much to offer. Turning people off before they ever get started isn't my concept of "making new disciples."

dennis - when obama's debt cutting plan 2.0 comes out with numbers that projections can be made on, we can talk again. 3% unemployment by 2022 sounds doable for a service based economy, What is obamas estimated rate in 2024?

The lowest unemployment this country has seen in the last 50+ years was 4% in the 60’s.

I believe our President submitted a budget with unemployment hitting a low of 5%.

To Alan, NJ –

Robert (Douchebag) Rector of the Heritage Foundation -- seriously? (ToJoAnna Smith1 – I didn’t see any progressive in this thread using ThinkProgress as a source.)

Per David Walker’s post above regarding Conrad and Coburn, the Gang of Six will increase the tax base by reforming the tax code (eliminating loopholes)--In other words, getting the rich/corporations to actually pay the taxes they owe. It will also mean eliminating tax credits for everyone, credits that are “redistribution of wealth” based on life style/life choices (usually “family values” choices like having a sh!t-load of kids). That’s the first step we will see, and long overdue.

Then the Bush tax cuts will be ended, especially those that are not income tax, but rather only applicable to the richest 2% such as capital gains, dividends, and estate taxes. Then hopefully we can return to a more progressive income tax rate that will help restore our middle class, and thereby help preserve democracy. Why conservatives think there is anything wrong with this is beyond me.

To Bill, Fairfax, VA –

“the looming train wreck” is typical fear-mongering that conservatives (AKA Chicken Littles) use in their “strategery” as a guise for their real agenda of destroying the social contract. Interesting that they don’t connect the dots and include the health care crisis in the “predictable economic crisis” ahead.

You can criticize progressives for seeming to ignore our debt problem. They are very aware--they just don’t agree with you on HOW to solve the debt problem. You can criticize progressives for seeming to ignore the amount of revenue needed, but at least they favor increases in revenue (unlike the GOP/TP), and they understand both revenue and cuts need to be rolled out in stages according to economic recovery.

To time4truth –

The Party platforms flipped—a post above provides a brief review of this -- the Dixiecrats flipped when Truman (D) favored civil rights. The Party of Lincoln is now the Democrat Party.

JoAnnaSmith, et al, President Obama has never stretched the truth on par with the blatant lies we’ve seen from Republicans—most recently Kyl and Bachmann about Planned Parenthood, and the laundry list of scandals by Republicans during the Bush/Cheney administration, most recently Ensign’s resignation, have exceeded historical records. It never ceases to amaze me how conservatives constantly attack the President/Dems with a record like this.

Side Note 1: Ayn Rand writes fiction in which the robber barons and ruthless industrialists are glamorized, while never mentioning the sweat shops, child labor, and filth and poverty of the masses—which the rich cleaned up because cholera does not distinguish between poor or rich.

Side Note 2: Also, at least David Koch supports PBS. Dick Armey and Republicans in the oil industry, heck Trump (he's a pathological liar and nut like Ross Perot)--now we're talking about a piece of work.

Nice post TP, all accurate and valid points.

So true Navy.

You are continently healing the Republicans sighting that we need less intrusive and small government in our lives. Well, that is the biggest whopper lie they can tell.

The republican agenda is the complete opposite of what they say. It’s so sad that so many of their supporters believe this hog wash they throw out to them.

Not for one moment should anyone with an ounce of common sense believe any of this talk.

Sorry Spell check.

So true Navy. You continue to hear the Republicans sighting that we need less intrusive and small government in our lives. Well, that is the biggest whopper lie they can tell.

The republican agenda is the complete opposite of what they say. It's so sad that so many of their supporters believe this hog wash they throw out to them.

Not for one moment should anyone with an ounce of common sense believe any of this talk.

Great job, Navy. King Snyder has seized Benton Harbor, Michigan. His ultimate goal, take the beach front park that was given to the city as a gift and deed it to private business for a golf resort. The average income of Benton Harbor's citizens is a little over $10,000; the cost to join the proposed club for a year is over $5,000. By seizing Benton Harbor, Snyder has the power to simply sell the beach front city-owned park without any way for the citizens to fight or protest.

Catherine Ferguson High School does what most people believe to be the way to a better future for these girls. Provide them with a good education and a means to go to college and become self-supporting for themselves and their children. That's what programs to aid the poor, the underprivleged, those who make bad choices are supposed to do. Sadly, the GOP/TP wants nothing more than to keep the poor, poor and uneducated. Shameful, absolutely shameful.

Jody I was unaware of that. The authoritarian bent of the GOPTP is of great concern, and it's hard for me to believe the Michigan act is even constitutional.

The impoverished former industrial town of Benton Harbor has become a flashpoint in the controversy over the new law that allows the governor to appoint Emergency Managers with virtually unlimited authority over local governments.

On Thursday the state-appointed Emergency Manager Joe Harris used the expanded powers granted by the new law to issue an order banning the city commission from taking any action without his written permission.

Benton Harbor City Commissioner Juanita Henry says her constituents are angry and looking for help, but without the power to hold meetings the city commission can’t even provide an official venue for citizens to ask questions and get answers.

“They are using Benton Harbor as a test case,“ Henry said. “If they have disenfranchised the people so badly they just don’t respond to anything, they can do this all over the country.”

Community activist Rev. Edward Pinkney said that many Benton Harbor residents only learned that their city government had been sacked by reading about it in the paper days later.

http://michiganmessenger.com/48333/benton-harbor-takeover-sparks-furious-reaction

Absolutely amazing.

John, you have any idea of the level of corruption of some of those city officials? No? Then do a little research before you begin criticizing.

You have the nerve to decry "authoritarianism"- when it was a DEMOCRATIC president and a DEMOCRATIC congress that dictated products people must buy?

Please.

By the way, your mentioning Michigan reminded me of a little nugget of information released on Good Friday- when, of course, SOOO many people would be paying attention:

The government is going to sell off the remaining GM stock this summer- seems Plouffe thinks it is a bad idea for "Government Motors" to be a campaign issue.

Too bad it will be sold at a TWENTY BILLION DOLLAR LOSS.

Ho hum. Guess think progress did not notice.

Neither did First Read.

Was this a breaking news release from Glenn Beck?

Actually, Forrest, the WSJ- but it was picked up by Reuters, Yahoo, and a host of other sources

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/19/gm-followon-idUSL3E7FJ0E020110419

The $20billion loss comes by subtracting today's price of $33 per share from what the government paid, which was more like $53 a share.

We did not recoup any of lure losses in the IPO, and it is looking like more money down a rat hole this summer.

Do try to get a little informed, will you? Think progress and media matters are not real news sources- heck, this site is not a real news source.

I get the facts of Obama's failures come under the heading of thing you do not want to know- but they are, nonetheless, facts.

Jody, That golf course opened in August last year before Snyder was elected and took office. How exactly did he seize the park it and give it to private business when he wasn't in office?

In comment #2.5 NJ says: “By the way, your mentioning Michigan reminded me of a little nugget of information released on Good Friday- when, of course, SOOO many people would be paying attention: The government is going to sell off the remaining GM stock this summer- seems Plouffe thinks it is a bad idea for "Government Motors" to be a campaign issue.”

Then in comment #2.7 she provides a link that is dated not on GOOD FRIDAY (Apr 22) but on Tue April 19th.

No Conservatives ready to defend an act that allows the governor by decree to take over public bodies and fire the elected representatives of the people?

Of course not, such authoritarian Conservative tactics don't stand up under public scrutiny. They can't be defended, so it's essential to change the subject instead.

I get to decide what I think is a failure or not. Saving GM and the millions of jobs that depend on GM is not a failure. 20 billion will be burned through in a few weeks in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya, now that I consider a failure.

John B:

I hear you. The resident no brains wants research. Ok, then tell us all knowing one, whyare they training 200 EFM's. They only need one God per municipality, so does your research tell us there are 200 towns, cities, etc that have been slated for the chopping block.

John, I find it amazing that these people continue to support a fascist regime and then get pissed when people who want democracy call them out on it.

This party is not only trying to redistribute wealth and power, they want to literally take away the very rights that many came to this country for. They really do want to remake this country into the likes of the 1930's and 1940's. Each State will have a King appointed by the one before them. Each city and township will have an appointed official with total power to enact the will of their King. Sounds like something out of the middle ages, well it is here already and trying to spread.

They can lie and spin it all they want, but we are on a path to the destructon of democracy in this country and they know it. It just so happens that it is exactly what they want.

Oh, Navy- you might just want to use a source nearer to the actual event

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2011/04/column.html

The writer is from Kalamazoo- and, if you did not know it,that is the nearest big city to Benton Harbor.

Rachel went off half cocked agaiN- and you followed along blindly.

Wow, navy, see you went off the deep end. What type of democracy do you want?? One of sustainable spending or the one you appear to like as in spend today and worry tommorow. As far as I can see, the politicians (R&L) have already sent us down a path frought with economic peril.

Sidebar... Government workers in wisconsin, new york and california are filing paperwork to retire early. Makes me wonder if they are trying to lock in pension and healthcare benefits before the private sector taxpayers revolt.

souce bloomberg news

Fascinating USN, it would appear that opinion pieces now trump the reality that hired guns from the governor's offic are now legally allowed to prevent the elected representatives of the people from even meeting, let alone acting in an official capacity. The opinion of someone who writes for a newspaper 50 miles away is more important than that of people who can be taxed against their will by someone they didn't even elect, and aren't allowed to dismiss.

Welcome to Conservativeland.

By the way, I do not know the exact number of emergency managers being trained- by the looks of things, if you are depending on Rachel Maddow for your information, neither do you( she does not seem to let pesky things like facts interrupt her narrative), but, if I do accept your number, it leads me to believe that, after a period of trial and error, they are going after The Big Kahuna- Detroit.

You know about Detroit, right? Where those people too poor to move are at the mercy of thugs and gangs? Drug dealers, burned out buildings, sporadic trash removal, failing schools?

Where mayors and council members have jail time as part of their CVs? Where Congressman Conyer's wife, a former city council member, is doing time in thenPen for corruption?

That Detroit?

The entire state is raddled with corrupt officials. That they are taking on the smaller municipalities as a warm up for the main event is not surprising.

Guess your real worry is that so many democrats will be in jail, republicans will have to run against each other for the next twenty years.

louis: the past of the democrat party...slavery, racism, jim crow, the KKK

the past of the republican party...emancipation, civil rights...freedom..

the present of the democrat party: abortion, which targets babies of color..and dehumanizes a group of people just like slavery did.

the present of the republican party...civil rights for all...

the future: the democrats implementing a fascist state where the government controls nominally private companies...like GM, chrysler, goldman-sachs...

for republicans...freedom....some things never change.

Yeah joe, freedom to think and believe. But only if you think and believe as they preach. Don't believe me? Look around. Read. Quit trying to pretend the Republicans are not doing just the opposite of what they say.

talking points...no examples to back it up.

joe-3041821

I think people have realized, taking points or FACTS as we call them doesn't matter to you.

You are truly a FOX person

MJL: what facts do you have? I have never seen you post any.

all you can do is parrot talking points...but then independent thinking isn't allowed in the democrat party, as your posts prove...

Joe, you ask for backup and facts. Yet you yourself post no support for your positions.

Your highly partisan response to Louis, also un-substantiated, ignores huge pieces of American history. Like the Civil Rights Act, Watergate, Iran Contra, the TVA, the Middle East Peace Accord...

fielden: what I said about the history of the republican and democrat party are absolutely true...where are your facts to dispute what I said?

the civil rights act..you mean that act that more republicans than democrats supported? yeah I remember that...do you remember the 1957 civil rights act? probably not..

what point are you trying to make with the other things you mentioned? do you think there is peace in the middle east? really?

louisJ - LMAO! All those "failures" . Guess that means that all those greedy successful & profitable businesses are controlled by democrats, right. Failed moralists and husbands as well I see. Looks like if the democrats haven't failed on the morals ground it can only be due to democrats having no morals, right? If husbands have failed is this why Americas divorce rate is ~ 50% and of course they are all republicans right?

Joe-304... Carry on, you are the only poster above who made any attempt of providing both sides. MLJ and frank just....?

joe,

If you really believe that tripe then pass that doobie over here. The republicans have shown their disdain for all who don't believe as they believe.

This government controls less each day, we are becoming an oilgarchy, controled by the corporations or even better yet, a plutocracy.

And this is what you republicans desire.

Shameful!

steven: if its tripe, then why are you unable to refute it?

you really don't have a clue whats going on do you? its called crony capitalism...as in red china...ie its fascism where government controls the companies that are nominally privately owned...and a fascist state is what you desire.

american; thank you!

joe, provide evidence and documentation to support your parroting.

You cannot because the government does not control the businesses you named, or any other. It is businesses that are now controlling the government. Oilgarchy and plutocracy, the opposite of fascisim.

Steven - aren't you the one to call the kettle black...

The republicans have shown their disdain for all who don't believe as they believe.

You must not read the posts by the professional FR lib posters.

This government controls less each day, we are becoming an oilgarchy, controled by the corporations or even better yet, a plutocracy.

Interesting, thousands upon thousands of regulations written on obamacare, financial reform, no child left behind, etc, etc, etc.. Legislation still not written addressing fannie may and freddy mac. Just think obama wants to add even more bureaucracy as well.

I will easily give business credit for addressing waste and inefficiency when the economy sours. Government, not so much.

John B:

I agree they do not care except for themselves. The GOP/TP has lost their way, they were never like this. This new found ideology (actually there is nothing new about it at all) is totally incompatible with democracy as we know it. They are taking the very fabric that this country was built upon and shredding it to he!!.

They know it, in fact they desire it as they see the destruction of our country as there only hope for getting into the White House. They are planning on how to increase unemployment and stall the economy so they can blame "Our President" even though it is their "Obstructionism" and their hatred for the Middle Class that is dividing this country and trying to unravel everything that has been done. They want to put the country back to square one and then reapply their failed ideology again.

"They are planning on how to increase unemployment and stall the economy..."

Really, Navy?

That sounds like something Glenn Beck might come up with.

Is George Soros involved?

They are planning on how to increase unemployment and stall the economy so they can blame "Our President"

Rumor has it Dick Cheney is bringing out his weather machine to cause hurricanes and tornados across this country of ours.

For having control of half of the Congress, the Republicans certainly do seem to have a lot of power. Maybe that's because the Democrats are so easily led.

And by the way, where is "Our President" campaigning and fund raising today?

Hey all, As a Conservative/Rep/TP supporter, I spent Easter with my widowed Mother and Helped my brothers get her yard ready for spring. We decided to take care of her "Property Taxes and Vehicle Taxes" again this year. I drove my 14mpg Tahoe 200 miles to see her (that's olny .50/gal in taxes for you liberals who want to gouge me more). Please raise my taxes more. I don't feel at all like I'm paying my fair share.....

Actually it's something John Boehner circulated;

REPUBLICANS, some of them at least, seem to have put together a plan to generate economy recovery that isn't likely to endear them to the American public. The strategy, in a nutshell, seems to be to 1) sack a bunch of public sector workers to force them into the private sector so that, 2) private sector wages will fall, leading to 3) an increase in hiring.

There's no question that the Republican plan would mean a more painful and less effective road to recovery than is necessary. Given that it's also likely to be a political dud—do voters really hate public sector workers so much that they're willing to suffer pay cuts in order to punish them?—it's a peculiar economic policy line to adopt.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/03/monetary_policy_7

It's a rare bit of candor when GOPTP leaders ADMIT they're out to destroy the middle class.

As for what President Obama is up to, unlike Republicans beholden to the Koch brothers he's making an effort to reign in speculative markets;

The attorney general is putting together a team whose job it is to root out any cases of fraud or manipulation of oil markets that might affect gas prices. That includes the role of traders and speculators. We’re going to make sure that nobody’s taking advantage of American consumers.

http://www.heatingoil.com/blog/obama-takes-action-root-illegal-oil-speculators-0422/

"Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe"

-Energy Secretary Dr. Stephen Chu, speaking to the Wall Street Journal, September 2008-

Sounds like Dr. Chu feels that much higher gas prices should be a policy goal of the Obama Administration, doesn't it?

Keep that in mind when you see or hear President Obama lamenting high gas prices.

The Ryan Bill ifpassed will cost us hundreds of thousands of jobs. This will take much needed money out of the economy as those without jobs will just have less to spend, period. Small business will suffer because they will have fewer people to sell their products and services to. They will have to lay off people as well further compounding and bad situation. Now while all this is happening they are going to reward the rich with huge tax cuts.

The GOP/TP does not want to increase the debt ceiling. What effect do you think this will ahve on our economy and global standing. Sure as he!! is not going to stimulate the economy.

The GOP?TP is on the path of increasing unemployment, causing more claims for UI, Food Stamps, Medicaid etc.

Sorry your DRACONIAN Agenda has been exposed and the people do not approve.

The Ryan Plan Summary of Major Points: [Part I]

On the tax side, the Ryan plan would make permanent all of the Bush tax cuts for high-income Americans, as well as the striking estate-tax giveaway included in the December 2010 tax package that benefits the estates of only the wealthiest one-quarter of 1 percent of Americans who die, at a cost of tens of billions of dollars. In fact the Ryan Bill will lower the current maximum tax rate from 35% down to 25% further reducing revenues. The Ryan plan loses $700 billion over ten years from making the high-end tax cuts permanent. People with incomes over $1 million would receive average tax cuts of $125,000 a year. These Spending Cuts which are for the most part offset by Tax Cuts for the richest 2% only serves to redistribute the wealth from the middle class to the richest 2% and DOES NOT reduce the deficit/debt anywhere near the amount proposed by the Ryan Bill. In fact the Ryan Bill will add Trillions to the deficit/debt over the next decade, not reduce them. Why is nobody pointing out the fact that if the Ryan Bill gets implemented we will have to increase the debt ceiling dramatically??

The plan contains $1.4 trillion in Medicaid cuts over ten years (which includes repeal of the HCR Medicaid expansion);huge cuts in food stamps, low-income housing, Pell Grants, and other programs for people with limited incomes; and repeal of the HCR’s subsidies to help low- and moderate-income people purchase health insurance. This will throw about 50 Million people off the Insurance rolls leaving them to fend for themselves. This plan will totally destroy Medicaid and many social programs as we know them.

The Ryan plan does call for tax reform that would broaden the tax base. But every dollar of revenue gained would go for cutting tax rates well below Bush-era levels, especially for the richest Americans whose top rate would fall to 25 percent. Not a penny would go for deficit reduction.

In addition, the plan almost certainly would lead to large cuts in investments critical to future economic growth, like infrastructure, education, and basic research.

And the “Privatization” of Medicare will either lower benefits for the same amount of money or cost more for the same benefits. Several reports indicate that seniors will have to pay about $6400 more for the same benefits. Again this will drive people off the insurance rolls putting them in a position of no health care or inferior Health Care, you can bet on it. This would destroy Medicare as we know it as well. The only winners here are the Insurance Companies – AGAIN.

Bottom line is the Ryan Proposal will cost hundred of thousands of Jobs, increase claims for UI, Food Stamps and Medicaid, lower revenues at both the State and Federal levels, stall or even derail the economy, will have little effect of the deficit especially since most of the spending cuts are absorbed by the tax cuts for the richest 2% and the increase in government spending on UI, Food Stamps and Medicaid. This proposal is not about deficit/debt spending cuts but is in fact a huge redistribution of wealth and power from the middle class to the top 2%.

Part II follows below:

President Obama in his speech yesterday has taken a different route to economic stability. [Part II]

It is important to note how got to this point in time to begin with. As President Obama said in the opening remarks of his speech yesterday afternoon:

“To meet this challenge, our leaders came together three times during the 1990s to reduce our nation’s deficit. They forged historic agreements that required tough decisions made by the first President Bush and President Clinton; by Democratic Congresses and a Republican Congress. All three agreements asked for shared responsibility and shared sacrifice, but they largely protected the middle class, our commitments to seniors, and key investments in our future”.

“As a result of these bipartisan efforts, America’s finances were in great shape by the year 2000. We went from deficit to surplus. America was actually on track to becoming completely debt-free, and we were prepared for the retirement of the Baby Boomers. But after Democrats and Republicans committed to fiscal discipline during the 1990s, we lost our way in the decade that followed”. “We increased spending dramatically for two wars and an expensive prescription drug program – but we didn’t pay for any of this new spending. Instead, we made the problem worse with trillions of dollars in unpaid-for tax cuts – tax cuts that went to every millionaire and billionaire in the country; tax cuts that will force us to borrow an average of $500 billion every year over the next decade”.

“To give you an idea of how much damage this caused to our national checkbook, consider this: in the last decade, if we had simply found a way to pay for the tax cuts and the prescription drug benefit, our deficit would currently be at low historical levels in the coming years”.

I offer this as a historical context since the GOP seems to want to ignore their hand in what has lead us to the current economic distress and totally deny that a major portion of the current deficit is from the failed agenda of the previous administration, NOT President Obama.

Our President has laid out a framework of four steps to his plan to achieve $4 trillion in deficit reduction over the next twelve years. It is a plan (model) that puts virtually every kind of spending cut on the table, but also is one that protects the middle-class and the poor, the promises made to seniors, current military and its veterans, and our investments in the future of this country by creating jobs and keep the economy improving.

Step One: “The first step in our approach is to keep annual domestic spending low by building on the savings that both parties agreed to last week – a step that will save us about $750 billion over twelve years. We will make the tough cuts necessary to achieve these savings, including in programs I care about, but I will not sacrifice the core investments we need to grow and create jobs. We’ll invest in medical research and clean energy technology. We’ll invest in new roads and airports and broadband access. We will invest in education and job training. We will do what we need to compete and we will win the future”.

Step Two: Cuts in Defense Spending, per President Obama speech:

“Over the last two years, Secretary Gates has courageously taken on wasteful spending, saving $400 billion in current and future spending. I believe we can do that again. We need to not only eliminate waste and improve efficiency and effectiveness, but conduct a fundamental review of America’s missions, capabilities, and our role in a changing world”.

Step Three: On Health Care the President said “The third step in our approach is to further reduce health care spending in our budget. Here, the difference with the House Republican plan could not be clearer: their plan lowers the government’s health care bills by asking seniors and poor families to pay them instead. Our approach lowers the government’s health care bills by reducing the cost of health care itself”. “Already, the reforms we passed in the health care law will reduce our deficit by $1 trillion. My approach would build on these reforms. We will reduce wasteful subsidies and erroneous payments. We will cut spending on prescription drugs by using Medicare’s purchasing power to drive greater efficiency and speed generic brands of medicine onto the market. We will work with governors of both parties to demand more efficiency and accountability from Medicaid. We will change the way we pay for health care – not by procedure or the number of days spent in a hospital, but with new incentives for doctors and hospitals to prevent injuries and improve results. And we will slow the growth of Medicare costs by strengthening an independent commission of doctors, nurses, medical experts and consumers who will look at all the evidence and recommend the best ways to reduce unnecessary spending while protecting access to the services seniors need”.

The Ryan Bill wants to destroy The HCR Bill and everything associated with it along with Medicare and Medicaid. He wants to turn Medicare over to the Private Insurance Companies and make Medicaid a “Block Grant” putting the majority of the costs on the backs of already strapped States, insuring that both Medicare and Medicaid will be destroyed as we know it.

Step Four: “The fourth step in our approach is to reduce spending in the tax code. In December, I agreed to extend the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans because it was the only way I could prevent a tax hike on middle-class Americans. But we cannot afford $1 trillion worth of tax cuts for every millionaire and billionaire in our society. And I refuse to renew them again.

Beyond that, the tax code is also loaded up with spending on things like itemized deductions. And while I agree with the goals of many of these deductions, like homeownership or charitable giving, we cannot ignore the fact that they provide millionaires an average tax break of $75,000 while doing nothing for the typical middle-class family that doesn’t itemize”.

“My budget calls for limiting itemized deductions for the wealthiest 2% of Americans – a reform that would reduce the deficit by $320 billion over ten years. But to reduce the deficit, I believe we should go further. That’s why I’m calling on Congress to reform our individual tax code so that it is fair and simple – so that the amount of taxes you pay isn’t determined by what kind of accountant you can afford. I believe reform should protect the middle class, promote economic growth, and build on the Fiscal Commission’s model of reducing tax expenditures so that there is enough savings to both lower rates and lower the deficit. And as I called for in the State of the Union, we should reform our corporate tax code as well, to make our businesses and our economy more competitive”.

This is my approach to reduce the deficit by $4 trillion over the next twelve years. It’s an approach that achieves about $2 trillion in spending cuts across the budget. It will lower our interest payments on the debt by $1 trillion. It calls for tax reform to cut about $1 trillion in spending from the tax code. And it achieves these goals while protecting the middle class, our commitment to seniors, and our investments in the future.

Part III follows below:

A Brief Opinion of Both Plans: [Part III]

[The Ryan Proposal]

Congressman Ryan’s proposal (deficit/debt) is based on primarily discretionary spending cuts that assault most of the social programs from the middle class and people of modest means. It cut funds for education, medical research, food and product safety, national security, EPA, IRS, etc. etc. It will increase costs and reduce benefits for Medicare and Medicaid in the short term (adding about $6,000 to Medicare Premiums over current costs) and totally destroying both Medicare and Medicaid for the future. Tens of Millions of people will be removed from the Health Insurance Rolls and left in the street to fend for themselves during a time they need the coverage the most. It attacks the HCR Law further denying affordable Health Care to our Citizens. States will now get a flat fee for Medicaid (block grant) and then be responsible for all the additional costs to make it work. This insures that Medicaid will be destroyed.

The so called Spending Cuts in the Ryan bill are not true reductions to the deficit/debt at all. In fact leading economists claim that the Ryan Bill will add 2-3 Trillion Dollars to the deficit/debt in the next decade alone. This will demand that the GOP/TP will have to increase the Debt Ceiling to implement this Bill. They forget that point in their rhetoric. This Proposal is nothing more than a bait and switch where Ryan cloaks the cuts as “Fiscal Responsibility” when in fact they are being used to fund huge unprecedented Tax Cuts for the richest 2%.

President Obama said yesterday that to give him a $200,000 reduction in his tax bill 33 seniors will have to pay $6.000 each. This is by the way the additional cost to Medicare as proposed by the Ryan Bill. Senior citizens, the middle class and those of modest means will fund the tax cuts for the rich and whatever is left over, if anything will reduce the deficit/debt, Many Social Programs will be phased out. Unemployment will increase as will the claims for UI, Food Stamps and Medicaid costing the government billions more and further reducing the revenues to both the State and Federal Governments at a time they need every dollar to keep many programs afloat. This will also have a negative effect on the continued growth of the economy. People this is not a plan that will solve our current problems. In fact it ignores them and just shifts money around from the middle class to other entities giving a false appearance of reducing the deficit/debt.

[The Obama Model]

Instead of just moving dollars around and ignoring the problems President Obama is going after health care (the number one cost factor) at the source, by controlling costs. His HCR Law will cut 1 Trillion Dollars from Health Care costs. He is going after fraud, waste, non functional programs, etc. He promises to cut spending on prescription drugs by using Medicare’s purchasing power and generic drugs to drive their costs down. He will work with governors of both parties to demand more efficiency and accountability from Medicaid instead of just throwing a “Block Grant” at them and then letting the States blowing in the wind to try and pick up all the other costs, which many strapped States will not be able to do like the Ryan Plan will do. President Obama said he will fight to keep Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security intact and viable for the future. The GOP/TP wants to either “Privatize” these plans or do away with them altogether. In my opinion “Privatization” will no nothing but increase costs through the roof, reduce benefits and funnel more money to Wall Street and the Big Insurance companies. The American people will suffer while the fat cats get “fatter”.

President Obama is going after the Department of Defense to reduce their budgets beyond the 400 Billion already committed and without putting a single troop in harms way.

President Obama is going after our domestic spending cutting 750 Billion over the next 12 years. What he is not going to do is sacrifice the core investments we need to grow and create jobs. We’ll invest in medical research and clean energy technology. We’ll invest in new roads and airports and broadband access. We will invest in education and job training. These are all things that the Ryan’s proposal attacks and has cut spending on or just outright kills.

The President’s Plan will address the current tax code to simplify it and make it fairer so all people will pay their fair share. He will not renew the tax cuts for the richest 2% that costs about 150 Billion or more (Income, capital gains and estate taxes totaled) per year and does very little if anything to create jobs and stimulate the economy. I suspect he may increase the upper limits to 500K or even One Million and then apply the Clinton rates to those over that Taxable Income threshold. He is going after the tax loopholes that primarily benefit the wealthy at the expense of the not so rich. The Ryan plan on the other hand wants to reward the richest 2% by lowering their taxes from 35% to 25%, keeping the free estate taxes and the lower capital gains tax. And as I mentioned above, the Ryan plan makes the middle class pay for these tax cuts to the rich by implemented DRACONIAN Spending Cuts to Social Programs, Medicare, Medicaid and anything else they can get their hands on.

It is up to you the American People which plan you want. One will destroy this country as we know it and redistribute the wealth and power to a select few (Oligarchy). The other will move our country forward, protect the middle class and those of modest means, allow our children the opportunity to a fair and equal education and partake in the American Dream and so much more.

Does the Ryan Plan create more deficits/debt before it becomes viable??

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/mar/03/matt-miller/matt-miller-blasts-deficit-debt-implications-paul-/

I wonder if Holder will come up with any ideas why oil prices shot up besides the great "Trader Conspierecy" It couldnt have anything to do with Obama's go green policies, his shake down of BP shareholders for $20 Billion, his Moratorium on drilling in the Gulf or his support for destabilizing goverments in the Middle East... NO I'M SURE IT'S JUST A BUNCH OF ROGUE TRADERS SCREWING THE LIBERAL CAUSE.....

UAW Pleeeeeeeease

Hey all, As a Conservative/Rep/TP supporter,I spent Easter with my widowed Mother and Helped my brothers get her yard ready for spring. We decided to take care of her "Property Taxes and Vehicle Taxes" again this year. I drove my 14mpg Tahoe 200 miles to see her (that's olny .50/gal in taxes for you liberals who want to gouge me more). Please raise my taxes more. I don't feel at all like I'm paying my fair share.....

Debt commission recommends raising gas tax 15 cents to pay for billions of infrastructure projects that will be needed by 2015, also if your taking that long a trip RENT a car, instead of paying 4 bucks a gallon for 14mpg, get a car that gets 30 mpg. your typical of our problems with the oil companies, you still drive a gas hog when gas is 4 bucks a gallon and you blame others for your selfishness. us Liberals would have rented a Hybrid.

All of the GOP/TP should be exposed for their support and signature on a document to remain faithful to the Norquist Doctrine instead of the Constitution and their constitutents.

At least Senator Coburn has stated that he will follow the Constitution and not special interests!

Time will tell!

Again, Navy-

DRACONIAN are the cuts that will occur if the U.S. suffers a sovereign debt crisis.

See: Greece.

Jeff the "Hybrid" you liberals would have rented.... Is that the one with the $14,000 tax credit? I don't think you want me to not pay all the taxes I can. Who will pay for the Birth Control, Food Stamps, Housing, Healthcare of the Liberals? Face it you want me on that Wall, You Need me on that wall. :)~

Not for one moment do I or any Progressives believe any of his recycled garbage that these so call Conservative Republican supporters throw at us. Do they think we are stupid?

We are stupid if we listen to them and embrace their line of thinking.

MB: DRACONIAN are the cuts that will occur if the U.S. suffers a sovereign debt crisis.

See: Greece

It's unclear why the Left doesn't see what a dire predicament the country is in. Somehow they believe there is a magical host they can tax and all the problems of the country will be resolved. I guess thinkprogress will have to do a series of articles on the subject before they will ever start to believe the enormity of the problem.

UAW Pleeeeeeeease

Jeff the "Hybrid" you liberals would have rented.... Is that the one with the $14,000 tax credit? I don't think you want me to not pay all the taxes I can. Who will pay for the Birth Control, Food Stamps, Housing, Healthcare of the Liberals? Face it you want me on that Wall, You Need me on that wall. :)~

WOW all i was saying was that if you thought about the milage you would have gotten from a fuel econmy car instead of a gas hog tahoe you would have not had to give us liberals any extra gas tax for your trip.

MAN, CALM DOWN, smoke a joint, or take a pill.

John B,

Tea Party values are more in line with the aims of the Loyalists in colonial times than with the people fighting in George Washington's army. The TPs identify with the Have's, even if they themselves are not, and patriotism to them means obediance to the corporate monarchy.

The "Producers" Ayn Rand mythologized are more likely to be mooching off our society than the folks working two jobs to support themselves and falling further behind. I mean, really, when you hear about the bonuses executives at Transocean are getting, despite, and it some cases even because of the Gulf oil spill that killed 11 people and damaged the environment, you have to wonder what these "producers" are really producing.

In recognition of the outstanding achievement by Mr. Brown in leading the response to the unprecedented challenges the Company faced subsequent to the Macondo Incident, in February 2011 the Committee awarded Mr. Brown an additional cash bonus of $75,000."

http://blogs.forbes.com/jeffmcmahon/2011/04/06/transocean-execs-keep-most-of-their-bonuses/

John B, great post. Today's GOP resembles nothing more than "The Sting" for middle America, it is the a con first pushed by Ronald Reagan. I believe that Governors Walker, Snyder, Scott, Kasich, Christie and now Paul Ryan's budget plan have over-reached and awakened people, including moderate republicans, to the realization that the GOP/TP offers only gold to the rich and powerful and tin to everyone else.

Mixed Bag

"Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe"

-Energy Secretary Dr. Stephen Chu, speaking to the Wall Street Journal, September 2008-

Sounds like Dr. Chu feels that much higher gas prices should be a policy goal of the Obama Administration, doesn't it?

Certainly no one in the administration has advocated any such policy while the country is still recovering from Bush's Great Recession. That would be as stupid as the Republicans' plan to drastically slash the budget when the economy is still far from a full recovery.

John B. Des Moines IA: As for what President Obama is up to, unlike Republicans beholden to the Koch brothers he's making an effort to reign in speculative markets;

Really? What's he done? Other than say he's going to do something. I see he released his attack dog AG Holder on the oil companies, trying to find out if they're doing any "illegal speculation". Odd though, isn't it? The oil industry is one of the most regulated industries in the world, you'd think Obama's/Holder's job would to be watching for this "illegal speculation" all the time, but yet . . . .

But it sure made for a good sound bite in a speech for Obama now, didn't it?

Absolutely, Amy. The folks who imagine themselves to be the "Producers" in their Rand fantasy are the self same "BSD's" of Wall Street who are sapping the American middle class and with us the American economy as a whole to enrich themselves with oil speculation.

According to an analysis by the House Energy Committee’s Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, in 2000, physical hedgers, trucking companies, farmers, bakers, made up 63 percent of the crude oil futures markets, with speculators accounting for the rest. By 2008, those proportions had basically flipped.

http://www.thenation.com/article/159078/will-federal-regulators-crack-down-oil-speculation

This at a time when excess capacity in the market FAR exceeds that of 2008, the last big spike.

Leading exporter Saudi Arabia has said it has plenty of spare capacity that can be quickly added to the oil market if necessary, but its oil minister said it cut output in March because the market had plenty of oil.

http://www.financialmirror.com/News/Business_and_Finance/23258

Get that? Big suppliers are actually REDUCING their production because they believe excess capacity doesn't support the market price, but speculators including Koch Industries continue to drive it upward.

UAW Pleeeease..... Iowa's Republican Governor, Terry Branstad, is trying to raise the gas tax. Some liberal plot? It was Branstad who claimed to be a conservative years ago during his first 16 years as Governor who passed gas tax and sales tax hikes repeatedly to pay for his tax cuts to the rich and big business. This year he's still trying to cut income taxes for the rich and big business but he's not having as much luck. Branstad's reduction to education spending and insistance on tax cuts for those who do not need it means the same thing it meant during his first 16 years--higher property taxes at the local level which means middle income and seniors are paying for his plans. Anyone who fails to look beyond the sales job of income tax cuts and "cheers" deserves the higher gas, sales, property taxes they will end up paying.

Stick with him Jody. We've got alot more people nursing off the Governt bottle than when he left. (remember we've had two Democrats running things the last 2 elections) Also help me understand why the Democrat State Atty is trying to sue banks into lowering the principal on Deliquent mortgages?? I wish he would let the banks decide what is the best way to collect that debt.... Wells Fargo paid back thier TARP money in no time. I'm sure there better at handling money than Tom Miller would ever be...

Actually infrastructure has been neglected for so long even the industry that is impacted most severely by any increase is asking for one. From the chair of the American Trucking Association;

"Mr. Chairman, incremental solutions will not allow us to meet the nation's current and future transportation requirements," Windsor said. "While we know that Congress is not receptive to a fuel tax increase, we would like the record to reflect that the trucking industry is willing to accept a fuel tax increase to help fund infrastructure."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20110329/pl_usnw/DC73522

Hardly a hotbed of Liberalism, the last President of the ATA was Thomas Donahue, current President of the US Chamber of Commerce. Funding infrastructure just doesn't fit into the world view of people who imagine themselves as heroes in an Ayn Rand novel, however.

Too bad the real world isn't an Ayn Rand novel.

yeah lets raise the gas tax even more...it hurts the poor the most...hoax and chains!

Anything the the bridge collapse Obama attributed to poor maintenance, when, in fact, it was a serious design flaw that led to the collapse?

Since the bridge was under maintenance construction, and the weight of the construction vehicles contributed to the weight strain that caused the collapse due to a flaw in the design of the bridge, Obama was either lying or completely uninformed.

I leave it to you to decide which is which- and which is worse.

Too bad we did not have any threads on that on this site. You know- a rich trove of Obamaisms to mine for, oh, say, Carrie to write about.

John B:

Hardly a hotbed of Liberalism, the last President of the ATA was Thomas Donahue, current President of the US Chamber of Commerce. Funding infrastructure just doesn't fit into the world view of people who imagine themselves as heroes in an Ayn Rand novel, however.

What weaklings! Real true-blue red-blooded Americans don't need any socialistic federal highways to get from point A to point B. They just get in their Hummers and plow through the underbrush like REAL men.

John B! I'm impressed. We should be spending more on the infrastructure of our roads and bridges. That "would" have been a great place for the billions of stimulus money to be spent... Imagine the long term benifit of building roads to put people to work vs. extending unemployment 2 years... To bad that money is already gone.....

Apparently you missed the fact that billions WERE spent on infrastructure improvement through the stimulus act. That's OK, you can educate yourself here; http://www.recovery.gov/Transparency/RecipientReportedData/Pages/RecipientReportedDataMap.aspx

Oh I'm sorry. I meant spend all of the stimulus on infrastructure. I think trucking companies would rather get paid for hauling freight than the money the EPA and Iowa DNR gave them for "green gadgets"..... I know I'd rather see my tax dollars spent on Infrastructure projects that last longer than a lead acid battery heater/cooler for a truck.....

John B. Am I reading your link right? Illinois spent $11,476,252,733 in "Stimulus money" to create 13,084 jobs? Seriously we gave some one $877,121 to create one job? Tell me my math is off that can't be right.....

A crew of 4 built my garage in a few days. By your accounting I paid $5,000/wk per job.

It isn't just the job that we bought for $11B, it's the resulting infrastructure, which will stand for years.

Object permanence is something of an issue for you, isn't it? Educators have a technique for teaching that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peekaboo

So johnB - our conservative leaders are glen beck, koch brothers, ayn rand??? WTF???

Interesting and then you extoll on obamas rhetoric of ...

When President Obama spoke on the budget a couple of weeks ago he said a great deal that most Americans can agree with. He sees a nation of people who work together, cooperating to do great things. He sees a nation that reaches a hand to the fallen, helping them get up and regain their role as productive members of society. He sees an America in which hard work has value, no matter the work. It’s a vision that even appeals to a lot of Conservatives;

Where are the numbers johnb?? Where was obamas cooperation in 2009 and first 3 qtrs of 2010? I do so like the aid he gave to the public sector worker and unions while he ignored the private sector. I quess his idea of hardwork relates to the "shovel ready jobs" that he talked about. All fine political rhetoric for the campaign trail, but again johnb, where are the numbers??

From your same source...

People, if we're going to get this deficit under control, something's got to give. It's best if the sacrifice is shared. There's plenty of pain to go around.

One hopeful sign: Polls show younger adults are less opposed to major changes that can keep Medicare and Medicaid solvent. They also have more time to prepare for whatever changes might take place in the future.

Seems to me that mr page has the right concept of shared sacrifice and one that todays youth understands that maintaing the status quo is not an option.

As for your attempt at diminishing the tea party or conservatives idea of not wanting reductions in medicare/medicaid. go figure...someone having second thoughts on losing benefits. No really big surprise here for anyone.

Seems that the real argument here has never been posed on what these "supposed benefits" really cost. The baby boomers are just coming into the fore with their ever increasing numbers on expenditure demands for SS and medicare. The politicians have only sold us on the idea that "wouldn't it be nice that the government gives you this..." but fails to inform us on what it really takes financially to give us these benefits.

Our budget drivers are SS, medicare, medicaid, debt interest payments and the military. And that leaves what, ~15% for discretionary allocations? We all found out earlier on how well cutting $61 billion in "optional spending" for FY 2011 worked.

The real bottom line is that the voters have little to no idea on what it will cost them to get the programs they want and the current soverign debt crises in europe should serve as a reminder on what can happen when costs are ignored.

Consider this... Only about 25% of the revenues collected by the federal government is derived from personal income taxes, good luck on only the top 2% picking up the balance of payments for the 98%.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

(3) The only tax analyzed here is the federal individual income tax, which is responsible for about 25 percent of the nation's taxes paid (at all levels of government). Federal income taxes are much more progressive than payroll taxes, which are responsible for about 20 percent of all taxes paid (at all levels of government), and are more progressive than most state and local taxes (depending upon the economic assumption made about property taxes and corporate income taxes).

Come on John B. Don't P#@ on my back and tell me it's raining... :)~ Just out of curisoity were any of the guys who built your garage white or black? I just built a house and was amazed they all spoke spanish. Not a single white or black guy besides the builder. Makes ya wonder how we can have so much unemployment and olny the Mexicans can find work????

What has race to do with what I've said, UAW?

Thanks for asking, american. The Ayn Rand poison of unapologetic selfishness is practically a requirement for entry to the Conservative elite these days;

RAND'S INFLUENCE ON GOP: "For over half a century," says Jennifer Burns, a recent biographer of the novelist, "Rand has been the ultimate gateway drug to life on the right." And with good reason. Besides her prominence in the Tea Party's intellectual and cultural lexicon, some of the Republican Party's leading lights have cited Rand by name as an inspiration. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) said she was the reason he entered public service. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI) called Atlas Shrugged "his foundational book." Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) is an avowed fan and quotes extensively from Rand's novels at Congressional hearings. His father Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) told listeners that readers ate up Rand's Alas Shrugged because "it was telling the truth," and even conservative Supreme Court Justice Clar ence Thomas references her work as influence in his autobiography -- and apparently has his law clerks watch the film adaptation of The Fountainhead. The phenomenon holds amidst the right-wing media as well: Rush Limbaugh called her "brilliant," Glenn Beck's panel on Rand featured the president of the Ayn Rand Institute Yaroom Brook, and Andrew Napo litano enthusiastically recounted a story in which his college-age self introduces his mother to Rand's The Virtue of Selfishness. John Stossel and Sean Hannity have name-dropped her as well. Going further back, Alan Greenspan -- former chairman of the Federal Reserve and a fierce advocate of free-market ideology -- is an acolyte of Rand's thinking and knew her personally, and Rand was also dubbed the unofficial "novelist laureate" of the Reagan Administration by Maureen Dowd. Indeed, the most remarkable thing about Ayn Rand's reach on the right is how unremarked-upon it most often is.

http://northdenvernews.com/content/view/2272/2/

UAW - bet they weren't union either

Sorry John, I was just wondering who built your garage? I'm thinking either illegals can't get unemployment or Mexicans just have a better work ethic than unemployed whites and blacks....

Even now you're speaking to the upside down Marxism of Ayn Rand, in which only people of means are important and everyone else is just a leech. The Conservative belief that people in difficulty did something to deserve it, and people of means are such because they deserve it drips with that.

Or check this out, I coulld just be saying quit extending unemployment and force healthy able bodied people to work like the rest of us.... :)~

I'm sure they would work UAW if there were jobs.....how is the good old GOP doing on creating jobs? That's what they ran on, wasn't it? Those able bodied unemployed are still waiting......

echo - those unemployed better take a serious look at learning new skill sets or starting up their own business. Seems that with each recession there is always a group of people who will be left behind because new and different opportunities open up.

If you are looking for more jobs, why not spend more to create more demand?

well johnb - I might have to put "atlas shrugged" on my reading list. I might find some inspiration in it. Even Marx had an interesting sociological/economic theory, until one took into account human individualism and exceptionalism.

BTW - Michio kaku had some interesting observations on our economy and educational system last oct 3, 2010. The most fascinating part of his remarks were that they were not political.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from reading anything. Even despicable tracts like "Mein Kampf" can be read for their ludicrous ideas. It's all about reading critically.

time 4truth

Remember Trump can't win, Palin can't win,Bush drove us to the cliff and Obama drove us over with help of Reid and Pelousy,

HILLARY 2012

You must be a depraved Puma or emphatically seeking attention.

Hillary couldn't even get healthcare, the right wing nuts impeached her husband, they hated the Clintons, and more importantly Hillary has said she is tired. Have you seen how badly she needs a hair dryer in between flights?

FYI: The people elected Barack Hussein Obama to be the current POTUS. The GOP/ T-Bgger Party, which I suspect you are one, persists on showcasing their jokes, aka representatives and nominees, the 2012 election will be another easy sweep for President Obama; end of story.

Bev. --I like you but Hillary isn't a Teaparty member. I have admitted in the past I voted for Obama I know who voted him into office but Americans also voted 2 different men named Bush into office. They also voted Carter into office Americans don't always get it right. I like Obama I like he is from Chicago like me(Go Hawks) but he is failing. If you are at all honest with yourself you can see everything isn't G.W. Bush' fault.This country is going farther and farther backwards I'm not willing to jump to the other side so I'm backing another Chicagoian until I see a better canidate. If higher taxes, higher unemployment,higher fuel prices,more entitlements we can't afford, a healthcare bill that just seems to go up and up in cost weekly, is what you want vote for Mr Obama I can't do that with a clear conscience. Why do you care who I vote for?

Extreme models of government face failure. If a capitalist form of government evolves into too much of a equality gap, 2% very well off, 98% struggling to meet basic needs=Fail.

Socialism continuing down a path of bigger,and yet bigger government chases away wealth, economic growth & propserity. A socialist government eventually runs out of other people's money=Fail.

Somewherein the middle is balance. This balance must favor innovation, rugged independence, freedom to prosper, foster motivation and desire to improve oneself. The answer lie somewhere in a system model supporting profit, business growth, controlled intervention of government in people's lives. Services that enhance and protect society without overeaching or lending to complacency are important. The goal should be to achieve and maintain balance.

Couldn't have said it better, fireguy.

Really? The Royals are a joke. they don't rule anything,they got all their money by killing and taking the money of their people. Nice Legacy!

I like you Bev I always have but today I find it hard to beleive you are from Chicago. Sorry not trying to be mean I think you are a good person .

time 4truth

Really? The Royals are a joke. they don't rule anything,they got all their money by killing and taking the money of their people. Nice Legacy!

I like you Bev I always have but today I find it hard to beleive you are from Chicago. Sorry not trying to be mean I think you are a good person.

Well thank you for the compliment

Britain was the original colonizer; but I think this young couple is not going the way of the past.

William seems to gravitate toward his mother's humanitarianism.

I still like the Queen's English though.

How far off topic can your post be before you are deleted?? The Queen of England??? The Czars of Russia??

I thought the article was about our political contenders for 2012. Where's the author who is supposed to be monitoring the posts???

Speaking of the Chump, err, I mean Trump, I found this fascinating little 'gem':

And finally: Hollywood train wreck Charlie Sheen doesn’t want you to vote for potential presidential candidate Donald Trump, but not because of Trump’s birtherism. Sheen told an audience that Trump once gave Sheen a pair of faux cufflinks that Trump had said were platinum-and-diamond Harry Winstons worth $100,000. But when Sheen got the cufflinks appraised, he found out they were “f—king tin,” worth about $60.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/25/thinkfast-april-25-2011/

You really can't make this stuff up... LMAO!

Jody:

Trump continues his lies and yes, they are lies.

So do a lot of other Republicans. But he lies with more pizzazz than the rest of them. That's a big plus with the Tea Party voters.

Jody:

Why isn't the media devoting as much time covering these rallies as they do the TP? Why aren't we seeing clip after clip of the GOP/TP being booed and shouted down at their town halls? It seems that "liberal media" bias is conservative in nature.

As Rachel Maddow said last week, the beltway press doesn't cover liberals. Apparently, First Read is also among the exalted ranks of the beltway press. They've been silent on the negative reaction of constituents to the Republican's plans to "repeal and replace" Medicare with a voucher system. And nobody's covered the Congressional Progressive Caucus' budget proposal, which has been said will balance the federal budget 10 years sooner than either Obama's or Ryan's. Whether that claim is true, I don't know. Since the media won't discuss it at all, we might never know.

Great post, Jody. It is hard to figure out the cause/effect of the media coverage of someone like Donald Trump. He does seem to be a "bright and shiny object" as you say but then he shows up winning polls among Republicans. I may not agree with people like Romney and Pawlenty but at least I have the sense that they could analyze and understand intricate policy questions. Trump----not so much.

I heard Rachel, and she's right, the beltway media doesn't spend much time covering liberals. They do seem to have a fascination with the "bright and shiny" objects of the conservative kind. It is too bad because, while I may disagree with Romney and Pawlenty on policy, at least they have a real message beyond birth certificates, Kenya, and claiming to be the only real Americans.

Sarah WHO? lol

They've found a new con artist to replace Fertile Myrtle, she's worn out her usefulness!

We are lucky as long as palin and Trump are" out there" we can have a dem in the White House .I dis-agree with most of you on Mr. Obama but I don't want a Repub either that's why I'm holding out hope for another Clinton.

Amen.

John: hypocrisy much?

given your greed for other people's money.

I don't believe I've expressed a desire for other people's money, joe. I have expressed a desire for a fair and just society that works well and balances the profit motive against exploitation of the average American.

you want to take more money from the wealthy, you believe they acquired it by somehow having the government transfer money from the middle class to them...but when called upon it you cannot describe the mechanism, you merely state econmic statistics about the rich getting richer.

your 'fair and justt society' are code-words for a socialist society where some pigs are more equal than others...and the government exploits everyone.

doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a sign of insanity.

I have found that the so called 'christians' are the first to jump on the hate wagon. They are the first to attack women and gays. They are the first in line to do away with equal rights and the rights of anyone who is not a christian. It appears to me that the far right is working towards a corporate run theocracy. I really don't care what kind of god you believe in but do NOT insert religion into politics or force it on to anyone else. Going to church every week no more makes you a true christian, anymore than standing in a garage makes you car.

why do you hate the unborn so and take away their rights?

Regarding the post on the stimulus going for infrastructure. I've been traveling a great deal by vehicle during the past year and I see road construction everywhere financed by stimulus money.

obama loves his cronies...like immeldt, soros, and buffet...but hates those who do not ascribe to his version of crony capitalism...which is another name for fascism...

Nice empty talking point, joe. Care to back it up with any facts?

Didn't obama appoint immeldt as his chief outside economic advisor? GE has been given a lot of money...

as far as crony capitalism (ie fascism)

Obama money helps GE grow

Firm failed to mention it got stimulus funds for Decatur expansion
By Eric Fleischauer

Omitted from the news GE released Monday, that it is investing $59 million in its Decatur plant, was the fact that at least $6.5 million came from federal Recovery Act stimulus funds.

http://www.decaturdaily.com/stories/Obama-money-helps-GE-grow,69992

isn't that interesting?

Houston has a problem, being a moonbat and all, claiming it is a lie to say Obama wants to tax small business .

Obama's class warfare taxes on the so-called "rich" with incomes over 200 or 250K, will be a tax on small business !! Period.

Bob-188,

Since the higher tax rate only applies to net income (gross profit) above $200/250 (not gross income) then any business owner who makes that much is doing pretty good. That means they make more than members of Congress.

Bob-1887910

Obama's class warfare taxes on the so-called "rich" with incomes over 200 or 250K, will be a tax on small business !! Period.

Bob has a problem because he's a gullible moron who believes that the Koch Brothers and other billionaires are "small businessmen" because of the way they file their taxes listing their profits as personal income rather than corporate income.

Once again, thanks to all those on the Conservative side highlighting the fact that 2/3 of all corporations pay ZERO federal income tax. I trust joe and Bob will join me in a call to remove the sweetheart deals, loopholes, and corporate welfare that allow this to continue.

John: I'm sure you will agree with me that corporations never pay any tax, they just pass the taxes onto the consumer...so corporate taxes are just a hidden tax upon consumers.

I'm also sure you will join me in a call for a flat tax, so everyone can pay the same rate. no more of this failed marxist progressive tax.

Not at all true. Taxes are passed on to consumers only to the extent that the market will allow. For that reason some amount of all corporate taxes are instead a constraint upon profit. In fact corporate taxes paid have declined more dramatically in proportion to GDP than almost any other form of taxation over the last several decades. Have prices declined in response? Nope.

But back to the initial point, you've just told us you're fine with GE not paying taxes, so in fact you began with an empty talking point, just as you've ended with an empty talking point about marxism.

so you don't think taxes are part of the cost of goods sold huh? a company cannot sell goods at a loss for very long. of course taxes are a constraint upon profit....just as every other expense is...so?

prices are made up of much more than the tax rate...you have to add in all the costs of production, from labor to regulations, to overhead...so your point is meaningless...like all the rest of your points.

I don't remember saying that..but then you do make things up....and given your inability to logically defend your points I can see why.

oh a progressive income tax is a tenent of marxism....no surprise you are ignorant of that fact.

UAW Pleeeeeeeease

I wonder if Holder will come up with any ideas why oil prices shot up besides the great "Trader Conspierecy" It couldnt have anything to do with Obama's go green policies, his shake down of BP shareholders for $20 Billion, his Moratorium on drilling in the Gulf or his support for destabilizing goverments in the Middle East...

Oh, and you did not wonder when the Bush administration investigated whether oil companies were overcharging consumers at the gasoline pump and if speculators were pushing up fuel prices.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3815957.html

Or how about those aluminum tubes GW couldn't justify his rational for going to war in Iraq over; even after his investigations in the US and Britain that Saddam Hussein would have had yellow cakes in?

Sorry Bev, I forgot.... Eric Holder might also find out in his investigation that high oil prices are actually George Bush's fault. (we hate to have the chosen one take any responsibility for anything that might offend the Poverty Lobby)...... :)~

HEHE, yeah those two are related!!! Where and how do you come up with your logic of thinking? It's mind blowing and funny as hell!

UAW Pleeeeeeeease

Sorry Bev, I forgot.... Eric Holder might also find out in his investigation that high oil prices are actually George Bush's fault. (we hate to have the chosen one take any responsibility for anything that might offend the Poverty Lobby)...... :)~

OMG, your rant is so yesterday and riddled with falsehoods and hypocrisy.

Did you not hear your President speak?

That's precisely what I said.

In his weekly address, President Obama laid out his plans to address rising gas prices over the short and the long term. While there is no silver bullet to bring down prices right away, there are a few things we can do. This week, the Attorney General launched a task force dedicated to rooting out fraud or manipulations in the oil markets. The President called for finally ending the $4 billion in taxpayer money that the oil and gas companies receive annually. And, we need to continue safe, responsible production of oil at home. But in the long term, we need to invest in clean, renewable energy. That is why the President strongly disagrees with a proposal in Congress that cuts our investments in clean energy by 70 percent.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/04/23/weekly-address-instead-subsidizing-yesterdays-energy-sources-we-need-inv

I agree Walker sucks but the Wi. Dems need someone better than Doyel he ran every good company out the state. Maybe we can bring back La Follette.

all that money, and all that effort and you regressive 'progressives' still lost the supreme court vote in WI...ROFL!!!!

WHO CARES? None of my biz.

Good one. Bet there are not any pictures either.

Paul M. Lawrence O'Donnell has consistently said Pawlenty has little to no baggage, is not part of the whacky and will win the GOP nomination. In any other year, I would agree with you and him but I am not sure the GOP establishment of Rove and friends will be successful, despite their money, in taming the Tea Party and the far right "shrill." That said, it is a long time to the Iowa caucus and the primary season.

You know, every Democrat advantage that is gained from every kooky birther claim is lost again with the over-the-top racist charges... lol.

This one will be interesting to watch. Which side wants to lose it more?

you mean like hairy 'ne g ro dialect' reid? or joe 'clean and articulate' biden?

Paul

If I were a Republican who wanted to win the presidency, I wouldn't just say "I take the President's word he was born in Hawaii." I would pound the lectern shouting "we're better than this!" and I would take every opportunity to defend the President, and castigate my fellow Republicans who would propagate this lie. But, there hasn't been a Republican with a shred of decency since Gerald Ford, so I doubt it's going to happen.

why would you take the word of a known liar?

Both Mitt Romney as well as Rick Santorum have rejected birther claims straight out, but don't let facts get in the way of the venom filled rants that pass for commenting in these posts. Although not every comment is completely wrong, there are enough half truths, and out and out lies that the ideological bent is pretty apparent to the Independents, and fair minded right that choose to read these posts. It is a sad commentary on todays Democrats that the days of John Kennedy, Harry Truman, Tip O'Neil, and even Bill Clinton are long gone, and being replaced by people who view history through the distorted lens of demagoguery.

joe, thanks for coming out as a Birther in addition to all the other gross misrepresentations, unwillingness to consider even demonstrated facts, and outright lying that you've brought to FR. I've pointed this out before, but it bears repeating that you have no credibility.

NAWAP

john: so why won't obama produce his birth certificate, his grades, or his medical records? just like kerry who wouldn't produce his medical records...and his grades are a joke ...what are libs trying to hide? thought obama was going to be so open...just another lie...but he's a democrat...what do you expect?

I know you can't answer this, as you cannot answer any other point that is not covered by talking points.

At least you didn't deny being a Birther. The train back to Beckistan awaits you at the station.

Geez, John, are you four years old? I didn't see where Joe said he was a birther. It's a question that people want to know. The President works for the people not the other way around. Why can't he produce the information Joe asked for? It seems other Presidents did, why can't Obama? It's simple questions and if it's out in the open then there wouldn't be such a stink about Obama's past. Why is it so hard?

whoa whoa.. the president works for the people?

more like the president's a puppet taking orders over a cell phone.metaphorically speaking..

3WolvesandaMoon,

Actually our President did provide the exact same document as all other Presidents, his proof of live birth – which is sufficient in all states and all courts of law.

John: no surprise you couldn't answer the questions...all you can do is parrot talking points.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/15/debunking-the-birther-claim/

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-27/5-birther-myths-debunked/

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/08/05/birther_faq

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right-now/2010/06/there_are_some_people_who.html

Happy?

oh yeah the same old liberal talking points...truth is he never released his birth certificate...or his grades...

See, facts have no relevance to joe.

Sorry...forget that abandoned a new tunnel project with NYC that would have brought thousands of jobs to NJ leaving a tab still owed to the Federal government of over 800,000 million dollars. The tunnel is being built but Jersey gets zero revenues from it.

Um, sorry Ira that 800,000 million dollars is almost a trillion dollars. Although the government likes spending like a drunken sailor I believe even they might think 800 billion is a tad to expensive for a bridge. I am not sure just what the real cost is, if anything, but I know after that posting you don't have a clue either.

Ira's intent was clear. Nit picking doesn't change the fact that Governor Christie has socked the taxpayers of NJ with a huge bill that will need paid back to the federal government with nothing to show for it.

John - Not trying to nit pick, but if you put out a claim then try to put all relevant facts on the table. The fact is Christie is looking out for the State of New Jersey. That is his prime responsibility. New Jersey has nearly 33 billion dollars of debt (in the top 3 of state debt nationally), and its pension fund has a funding liability of nearly 54 billion dollars (that's not chump change).

That bridge tunnel was estimated to cost 8.7 billion dollars, but with projections of it escalating to almost 15 billion dollars. The Feds were only supplying 3 billion dollars. Whatever cost overuns occurred would have been borne by New Jersey. In the financial situation that New Jersey was in if the Feds thought this was such a big winner their share should have been bigger, or included the amendment that cost overuns would be borne by the Feds. Any responsible executive who had a debt like New Jersey would have done the same thing.

It is not a matter of what you might like, but of what you can afford. Once the state is on sounder footing perhaps they can revisit this, but negotiate a better deal for the citizens of New Jersey. Right now they need to balance their budget, and get their pension fund on sound footing so they can meet their coming obligations.

See this wasn't a rant about how bad Democrats, or Republicans are, but icluded facts to put the post in context.

NJ is in debt to thje Federal government for 800,000 million and not a trillion after Chrisite walked away from the project. If he is looking out for NJ why didn't he raise taxes on the richest New Jersians and add billions to the treasury.

Ira 800,000 million is 800 billion dollars pretty close to a trillion. The federal Governemnt was apparently fronting 3 billion of the initial 8.7 billion projected dollar cost for the bridge. Since that was for the whole project, and the project was halted incomplete by Christie, my assumption is that if New Jersey owes anything back to the federal government it would only be a portion of that original 3 billion at the most.

I am not sure why he didn't increase taxes on the rich, but for anyone making in excess of $500,000 in New Jersey they already pay almost 45% of their income between federal taxes, and state taxes. This does NOT count local village, town, or city taxes, or school taxes which would be added on top of that 45% tax rate. Now they may employee tax loop holes to lessen the tax they owe, but if you're just looking at the tax "rate" they now pay, it probably comes close to 50% of their income.

I guess I would ask if their were no loop holes for the wealthy to use (like home mortgage deductions) at what point (tax rate) would you be happy taxing them ? Taking 75% of what they make, 90% ? At some point when you tax enough they will just stop earning more, as it just wouldn't pay and that would very likely cost jobs.

I would personally just clean up the tax code and remove the tax loop holes (except for the first, or primary home). Then create a flatter tax for everyone.

srfnsnw100 - Look if you cannot help but use camouflaged profanity to make your point why don't you do the rest of the posters who actually have some intellect a favor, and not post !