Great column by Joe Klein. If yesterday's speech prompts even some of us to consider how we got where we are today it's very suggestive of how to get back out of this mess.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2065109,00.html#ixzz1JVBFPZWL

The worse thing to happen would be that the very people who will suffer under Ryan's Plan, will not rally against his demolition of Medicare. And I am 64, so his hatchet job won't afffect me. But contrary to what he thinks, I AM thinking of my children and grandchildren. What happens if they need a safety net? Who will be there for them?

Ryan's plan needs to be a non-starter because of the future. The promise of America is that we help each other. The promise of America is that no one need walk alone. Neighbor looking out for neighbor. There is a place for government to help with larger problems.

But no matter how the Republicans want to spin this, there is no reason the wealthy are not taxed more. It used to be patriotic to pay taxes to pay for our highway systems, our water, etc. We are living in a society that teaches the individual gets theirs first - the hell with everyone else.

If your circumstances - maybe you get ill - maybe you lose your job - the Republican plan is tough luck. I have mine and my friends have theirs and I don't particularly care about you. Got problems? Work them out yourself or............

Chandler:

I am glad you at least acknowledged that Ryan's plan will not affect you and everyone else 55 and over. The system has to to be revamped if it is to be sustained. I'm 43 and I have never relied on SS and Medicare as we know it to be there when I reach 67. Babyboomers are hitting the rolls and the system will be overwhelmed. If the age is raised; younger folks will not know anything else but they will not retire until age70. They will know that most of their lives the same as your generation knew it was 65 or 62 at a reduced rate.

The country cannot tax its way out of the current debt. Rich people are rich because they know how to make money work in their favor. There will always be ways of circumventing the tax code. With the explosion of CPA's and tax attorney's, the rich will always pay less than the bracket requirement. That is why they still have money. What Ryan suggested is that by lowering the taxes and getting rid of ALL the loopholes in the tax system, they all will pay a fair tax. It will cancel itself out. You guys need to stop deamonizing things just simply because it comes from a Republican who at least have the guts to bring up entitlements.

I live in the Houston area, I own my own business, retired military, and I work in the medical field. There are a lot of Dr.s that will not even take my insurance (TriCare) because it pays so slow and terrible. You can forget about most Dr.s even accepting new Medicare patients due to the terrible reimbursement scales. I work in the field and if you accept too many Medicare/Medicaid, you WILL go broke.

That's interesting ITM, are restaurants "in the medical field"? In the past you told us you run a family-owned restaurant. You've complained about how difficult it is to run a small, family-owned business in that field and how much more expensive Democratic plans will make it to keep your restaurant open.

This was a plan? Continue spending,(I'm sorry, he called it, "investing", didn't he) and when a certain level is reached, taxes increase automatically without any further congressional action, (every heroin addicts and progressive Democrats wet dream), it would have been like the Captain of the Titanic, opening more floodgates when water reached a certain level, to take care of the excess.

No, that isn't the plan.

"The first step in our approach is to keep annual domestic spending low by building on the savings that both parties agreed to last week – a step that will save us about $750 billion over twelve years. We will make the tough cuts necessary to achieve these savings, including in programs I care about, but I will not sacrifice the core investments we need to grow and create jobs. We'll invest in medical research and clean energy technology. We'll invest in new roads and airports and broadband access. We will invest in education and job training. We will do what we need to compete and we will win the future.

"The second step in our approach is to find additional savings in our defense budget. As Commander-in-Chief, I have no greater responsibility than protecting our national security, and I will never accept cuts that compromise our ability to defend our homeland or America's interests around the world. But as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Admiral Mullen, has said, the greatest long-term threat to America's national security is America's debt.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/04/13/6465318-president-obamas-deficit-speech

Again, he didn't say what he is willing to cut. All he ever does is campaign...

One issue I have with spending is the constant stream of tax dollars going to other countries for gosh knows what. There are approximately 190+/- nations in the world, and if memory serves me, we support somewhere around 140 nations. Why? How many billions $ is spent to accomplish this?

JohnB:

The keyword is I OWN IT.....I do not work in there full time. It runs itself and has for over 30 yrs. My profession is in the medical field. I was a SF medic in the military and now I work as a PA.

IntheMiddle, TX,

Good for you Middle - I owe you guys for the training at Ft. Sam. A former 403SOD.

In the Middle Tx

Glad to see You are still in the medical field, I was in SF for over twenty years and some of your compadres saved my life on several occasions, wish more SF medics would do the same.

yepper, like first read reported yesterday "obamas first 2012 campaign speech"

Be interesting to see how obama will control medical costs. Does he mean only certain ailments can be addressed? Does he mean that the healthcare profession will have caps on what they charge? Does he mean that only a select few who agree with caps will be eligible to provide care for our elderly? If so think of all our seniors who will die of "old age" waiting for care.

Then he touts on his own cuts to medicare last year, saying that it will be made up by eliminating waste and fraud.

What was most interesting that he insists that republicans come up with a plan for addressing our debt by the end of June.

Golly, 2 1/2 months to develope a plan, have it pass the house and then have reid and company refuse to debate it until obama chastises the republicans for not wanting to compromise. Obama ignored his own debt reduction panels recommendations of dec 2010.

Yes, yesterdays speech was just that, his first campaign speech for 2012. Hard to beleive that many libs thought that it was anything, but a speech

Obama ignored his own debt reduction panels recommendations of dec 2010.

Nope, you're going to need a new talking point;

President Barack Obama embraced proposals by leaders of his debt-cutting commission while shunning Republicans’ plan to privatize Medicare and opening a debate over a tax overhaul and spending reductions.

The deficit-reduction proposal Obama presented yesterday is similar to the mix of spending cuts and tax increases offered last year by the chairmen of his bipartisan fiscal commission. It contrasts with a Republican plan, announced earlier this month by House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan, that would cut $6 trillion from programs including Medicaid, Medicare, food stamps and education while reducing top income-tax rates.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-13/obama-embraces-debt-panel-ideas-shuns-ryan-s-medicare-plan.html

He even mentioned the commision in his speech;

"Today, I'm proposing a more balanced approach to achieve $4 trillion in deficit reduction over twelve years. It's an approach that borrows from the recommendations of the bipartisan Fiscal Commission I appointed last year, and builds on the roughly $1 trillion in deficit reduction I already proposed in my 2012 budget. It's an approach that puts every kind of spending on the table, but one that protects the middle-class, our promise to seniors, and our investments in the future.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/04/13/6465318-president-obamas-deficit-speech

John B... I'm with you on your thoughts. They say republican's don't believe in distribution of wealth? what a baloney... .they've done that for years.... the gap between the working class and the wealthy are at the largest point in history. The wealthy don't even make stuff anymore, they just manipulate the stock market... and the once that make stuff just ship jobs overseas to become even richer.

The wealthy are sooo far removed from what goes on in today's world.... they could care less about distroying the middle class. I recall when I just got hired as an Engineer by National Semiconductor: within a month of me working there, the CEO (Brian Halla) announced a layoff of about 2000workers, and 4months later, the board approved a $5million bonus... where's the conscience in this uber-rich? gone. the working class have become their subjects. It's like that in almost every field now... not just engineering.

Tunde:

Do you have a 401K? If you do, you are invested in the stock market. Do you want your 401K to be worth something when you retire?

Throw your Liberal mantra out of the window for a minute.......If you owned a company to which there are stockholders that enabled you to even own such company, why would you stay in the U.S. where the corporate taxes are the highest in the world with regulations that slows growth and a government that has preached to the public you are evil?

Why would I stay here when I can run production at 3 times the pace with minimal investment overseas and then come back and sell it to you. Everyone loves Wal-Mart and those low prices but complains about jobs overseas. If everything in that store was made here, it would be 3 times the price.

CEO's get paid what the market will allow. The same with professional athletes etc... If this man is making money for the company and the stockholder's are happy, it is in the best interest of the company to maintain him/her and that more likely means I have to pay him as much or higher than the next man.

ITM,

What are you talking about? Yes, I have a healthy 401k and I know very well how that works... I also play the game and do quite well if I might add. I don't consider it a job because I don't make anything... I just find a way to beat the next guy to the money. Well, I can understand that you'll probably say my investments are probably helping that company... NOT!! I dont leave it there long enough to make a dent.

Being rich in this country today has nothing to do with creating jobs or maintaining a healthy environment for our kids... you just have to know how to make money the quickest way. Unfortunately these new methods of making money are hurting our economy.

My Liberal mantra? this is the American Dream being crushed by your views (not conservative. but extreme views). The reason why jobs are shipped overseas is because of simple economics i.e. labor is more expensive in the US than anywhere else, not taxes buddy (it's peanuts in comparison). You use false logic (that seems right), to justify your flawed positions. I guess if lowering taxes work, we'd be doing quite well now....but after cutting taxes (2001, 2003), the economy bottomed/crashed/exploded....and the smarter rich folks just hoarded their money away... and are living lavish now (enough for themselves, their kids and grand-kids). By the way, if corporations pay soo much taxes, then y did GE paid zero/zilch/nada in taxes last year on $5billion in profit (not revenues, but profit)

The top 10% of Americans own 81% of stocks. The lower 90% splits the remaining 20% of stocks so the idea that we should have to enrich the wealthy for the sake of our portfolios is nonsense.

See Table 2 here. The data is 2007, but concentration of wealth has only increased since then. http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Wow JohnB, the heat from your love affair with the Prez. can affect global warming in Iowa!

Tunde:

Just because a view is different than yours does not make it extreme. I do not see things through a liberal perspective but I have never called anyone's views extreme in here.

I play the market too but I also have gained and lost with it. Overall it has served my family well. Is it Wall Street's function to create jobs?

I didn't say a company could not stay here and game the tax code. I said as a POLICY they are high; now how a company gets around it, is their business.

JohnB:

The reason 10% is making money is simply because most of the countries population has never been taught anything about investing. I only reason I knew was because my father is an educated man and business owner. He taught all of us how to make our money work for us. You have to help yourself before you can even attempt to help someone else.

safecracker - I wondered why our winter this year was milder than most. Thanks johnb!

There are a couple of old observations that "20% of the people control 80% of the wealth" and that when our country was founded 90% of the people were self employed and 10% worked for them.

Well I guess it is still true that a small minority still controls the majority of wealth but it seems that only a small minority own there own business and the large majority think the minority owe them top wages for everything they do.

Sad to think that the fools and idiots who think that wealth redistributution is the answer, when in fact that after such redistrubution occurs it won't be long untill 10% again controls the vast amount of wealth. Maybe not the same 10%, but 10% none the less. Bet the libbies who cry the most think that they will become part of the new 10%. lol

Middle,

I agree, we should be looking out for ourselves. Our nation allows us to get a free education, at least 13 years of it. If you want more education, you can get it. You are never too old to learn. But these folks slobbering all over our President, I hope he doesn't catch something. He is a great speaker, but then again his 7 page outline is a 10 year plan, he won't even be in office then. All it does, well, is kick it on down the road.

Tunde,

Please don't complain about the rich--or wealthy, when you yourself do the same thing they do.

I just find a way to beat the next guy to the money.

That is just funny, I don't care who you are:)

American,

Reminds me of the French Revolution--committees, groups, patriots, overthrew the ruling class and rich, even chopped off a few heads. Then they would rule, lose to another group & off with their heads. Until they got a ruler that used force and took them down the road of ruin. But all societies seem to have that ruling class--the wealthy. I am just hoping that I can get there one day. Probably won't last long, but it would be nice to see things from the top for a while.

IntheMiddle, TX, sorry about the "extreme" comment... I was following chuck Shumer's (sp?) lead. I agree with you that it's not Wall street's business to create jobs; they just seem to be the ones with a lot of the breaks from the tax cuts, and people say they create jobs and deserve tax breaks;

small businesses create jobs and most of them will not be hurt by raising taxes on the 2% of Americans in the Wealthy class.... they will do just fine.

And no, corporations are not evil... the problem here lies in the fact that they don't think like people and logic is not something corporations take into account - they seem to only focus on bottom line for the next quarter rather than long term growth. Think back to when HP was still run by Hewlett & Packard... they had pay cuts during recession and most/if not all employees kept their jobs. That culture is long gone; because wall street says "recession" and people are laid off left and right, causing a deeper recession. A lot of corporations are also too big too fail, so when they screw up, the government (which they hate so much) is left holding the ball.

BigBear62, I'm not complaining about the rich making money the stock market way... my point was that they should pay their fair share of taxes - the American way.... I would gladly abide. The ones that make the most from this country should pay the lion share - afterall they can afford ti w/o hurting the economy.

The Ryan plan is actually not a plan... it was meant to entice the rich. Republicans talk about democrats stocking class war-fare. What do they think Union stripping and Ryan plan are? They just don't call it such, but it's basically implementing class war-fare ... when pit the minority rich against the working class. And what republican voters don't seem to get is that they will for the most parts be poor... they seem to have this vision that they would be rich someday and then the government will take too much of their income. What they dont realize is that the more people are being squeezed lower on the ladder (not to the top)...so we have to take care of the folks in the bottom (not the lazy ones, but the folks struggling and doing everything in their power to make it - to take a piece of their own American dream).

Hi Tunde,

You are right on. Thanks.

The recent Republican maneuvers make me think back in history to the Civil War era. The slave owners were part of the movement to convince the lesser class into fighting for state rights.

However, they were fighting for slavery rights. Many, of these soldiers were fighting to keep themselves from being the lowest in class and by keeping the salves in bondage.

Rudy:

Congress is under a private sector health plan....it is called Blue Cross/Blue Shield..duh. Do you have a pension plan at work?

Your interpretation of the Constitution is laughable.

ITM, if you check, BCBS is a plan administrator. They only handle the paper work and someone else, namely you and me, pick up the tab for any healthcare cost to congressmen.

So how come you haven't responded to John B? Are you in the medical field or do you and your brothers owna bar-b-ques joint that ya'll inherited from your father?

FrankH,

I don't concern myself with the insurance Congress gets because anyone in America can run for Congress if they meet the criteria set forth by the Constitution. People move around constantly in the civilian world in order to gain better benefits so there is no need hatin' on Congress because the public voted and that is part of the perks.

I answered John B. BTW: We own several. We each have our own, yes thanks to that good ole' Democrat turned evil Conservative dad of ours. Yes he is so evil as to leave a legacy and build a business for his family. Yes he is so evil and hate America so much as to people are still working that started with him back in the early 70's, and out of the 100's of employees he has only fired 1 in 40 yrs..... Yes he is so evil as to where he inspired his 3 sons to build a community center in the old neighborhood that we grew up in. Yes I tell you Conservatives only care about themselves.

You made a point of correcting Rudy about it but you're not concerned? Sure.

You answered John B. after I called you on it. But you never mentioned being in the medical field until today, huh? And you own a restaraunt but work in the medical field. On top of being an IT professional too?

Why is it you conservative posters always seem to switch professions daily?

ITM, I don't begrudge you anything you have or have earned. What I do take issue with is the smugness with which you and others lecture those of us who have not been as fortunate as you.

Not everyone has had the opportunities you have had. My father was not as well off or as business savvy as your father. Not everyone wants to live their lives exactly as you have. I did not care to serve in the military as you did. My choice of field of study and field of work has not always been as smooth as the one you chose.

Good for you. It all worked out for you. But at least recognize that you are the exception rather than the rule.

It's very telling that while you are discussing your life and your businesses, it's all about making money. Or investing. Or using the system to advantage. Very little is about enriching life or being socially responsible. No wonder you think the way you do and believe the things you do. That is of course your choice, but it doesn't entitle you to belittle those of us who may have chosen differently or who think differently from you.

What you have done highlights the main differences between Republicans and Democrats. And between conservatives and liberals.

wow - fieldon. how would you rate the smugness of IR, navy, louisJ, johnB and JohnA.

How does steve jobs, steve wozniak, bill gates, warren buffet, founders of facebook or google, the first rockefeller or Carnegie fit in with your belief that success is defined by the business savvy or wealth of their fathers?

Bet you think that if we only provide our youth with the best that money can buy they will all become geniuses and guide America into another realm of greatness.

So sorry, human individualism and exceptionalism will determine success in any field of endeavor. Not necessarily who your daddy is.

Felden:

Yes you are right. I am about making a better life for my family. I have never belittled anyone for not being as fortunate as I have been. I worked my entire life and my father did not just give me anything. I just became owner a year before I retired from the military.

My family and I are very generous to the community from which we came. Everyone in the community know all of us and have known us since we were babies. I have never forgotten where I came from and I take it personal when someone accuses me of forgetting. Just exactly how much do you think that Community Center cost to build from the ground up? I'm through talking about that......

When it comes down to the mighty dollar, there is no difference between the two parties, everybody want it. Liberals are not the only generous people in the world. You just have cornered that talking point and people believe it. Republicans get tagged with the big corporation label due to the fact liberals demonize corporations. If you are going to disrespect me every chance you get, hell what do you expect for a corporation to do? Give you donations and then say "go ahead and stick it way up there"......

Frank:

First of all I didn't even see your post. I was at the top of the page conversating with that dude, you were hanging in the bottoms'.

time stamps

american, I was responding directly to ITM's post. Please go back and read that to get the perspective.

ITM, I don't disrespect you at all. Quite the opposite. And it was not my intention to single you out. I am only asking for the same respect in return, regardless of the difference in our situations. Thanks for the discourse.

fielden - if I didn't read the post I wouldn't have responded. Too many people want to deamonize or minimize the success of others because they chose to create the life they currently have or their children will have. Every success story probably has tens or hundreds of failures as well by others. there are no guarantees in life except death and taxes.

You never heard one peep from him or any of these other clowns. If the country elects a conservative president and congress in the next election, watch how fast the debt becomes a non-issue.

Sue:

You could have chose that lifestyle too.

12 yrs.......lol....Take a look at some of those old azz Democrats to whom have been in Congress my entire lifetime. I'm 43.....go figure. Yes I know it is some Republicans too but I'm just responding to your moot point.

Jeez ITM talk about a moot point. Just about everything you post is a moot point. LOL

seattle sue - so where were your beloved libs and democrats? Snoozing? hiding out outside D.C.?

frankH - this is a blog, very few posts (if any) are not moot points, including yours.

didn't say mine wasn't did I? I've read this board for a couple of years and ITM has a history of demeaning people and being inconsistent in his postings. I'm just here to call out the imposters.

Well Frank, since your the Blog Police maybe you should go after Feisty and Bev also...

they don't claim to be something they're not. They will demean someone but then don't turn around and say they don't. In short, they are what they claim and don't hide behind lies.

Sure they do Frank, sure they do...

Frank:

First of all I do not demean anyone who does not deserve it. You Liberals will dish it out but then think no one is suppose to say anything back.

I don't even know you nor have I seen you on here. I would remember a backwoods azzbackwards jackazz.

Your minions claim a lot of BS. Conservatives don't waste our time policing a damn blog.

man kick rocks...........go trick off the rest of your money down the street.........

Short memory there ITM. You've been on this blog daily for over 18 months, so have I. I'm not policing anything, but when I read inconsistencies like yours, they deserved to be called out.

But just out of curiosity, just what is backwoods (Louisville is anything but) azzbackwards jackazz?

Ah, you HAVE been reading ITM.

Frank:

Try 4 yrs.

I was stationed at Ft Campbell for training many times and made that trip to Louisville. It is slooooow-motion. Evidently you have never lived anywhere else.

Why would you drive all the way to Louisville when Nashville was so much closer? But yeah Ft. Campbell is about as backwoods as it gets.

No, I haven't lived in too many other places. San Antonio for 3 years, Charleston W.Va for 4 years, Jackson, Ms (ugh, that was god awful) for 2 years, and a few other stops that were very short time.

Why do conservatives always assume so much? Its been their downfall so many times.

Wm - nice point, one would think that a leader would get his ducks all in a row, first.

kind of a moot point american.