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Subscribe to RSSTea Party conservatives may be the most vocal group arguing that Congress should NOT vote to raise the debt ceiling, but they’re far from alone in the American electorate.
As some of us wrote in First Read this morning, the latest NBC/WSJ poll shows that raising the debt ceiling could prove a very heavy political lift for lawmakers this summer.
Even after the arguments for (avoiding a default on the government’s current debt payments) and against (failing to exercise fiscal responsibility) were outlined to the poll’s respondents, two-thirds of voters replied that the debt ceiling should NOT be raised.
While those dissenters included over eight in 10 self-identified Tea party supporters, a majority of Republicans who do NOT affiliate with the Tea Party also argued that the debt limit should not be increased.
Of GOP voters who do not identify as Tea Party backers, only 28 percent said that the debt ceiling should be raised, with 68 percent saying that they oppose lifting the limit even if it means that the government will not be able to pay its bills.
That split is mirrored among independent voters. Just 24 percent of self-identified independents believe the cap on government debt should be adjusted upwards, with 71 percent balking at that idea.
Even Democrats are about evenly divided on the issue, with 49 percent supporting raising the debt ceiling and 45 percent opposing.
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So the people who claim to love this country and want to prosper are opposed to something that will improve the economy. Doesn't surprise me.
debt will destroy this nation, and i'm not surprized, the party that wishes to destroy this nation, is in favor of increasing the National debt and it's ceiling...Not raising the debt limit forces a balanced budget starting may 15 2011, not 2055
What good is extending the debt limit without addressing the programs (Medicaid. Medicare, & SS) that are making us insolvent? If we raise the debt limit, don't address those issues, and kick the bucket down the road....then we put ourselves in a position where a future default will be infinitely worse.
If we are going to default b/c our politicians are too big a pu$$ies to deal with it now, then so be it. Better now than later with even more debt. Just because we are for tough love, that doesn't mean we don't love our country. Perhaps you should shed your myopic understanding of how you think it works, and adopt a more holistic view of how it really does work.
The biggest threat to our economy is not a double dip recession, it is the US Dollar losing reserve status and us experiencing hyper-inflation as a result.
In a hyper-inflation period, welfare will be useless and people will starve to death. The most vulnerable, that people wish to take care of, will suffer the worst, as government assistance will no longer be an option.
Many of you just don't get it.
Perhaps if so called "reporters" like Carrie Dan and Chuck Todd reported on these events like the REST of the ENTIRE WORLD media is, more Americans like you would know.
In case you don't read the post below (like you didn't read the article)...
MrPheaNiques...
Perhaps you should read the article. It said that INDEPENDANTS and NON-TEA PARTY REPUBLICANS...oppose raising it. The pictures are pretty but the context of the article is found in the words.
Jess-1177200
maybe you should have read my post, instead of commenting about the pictures....I am perfectly aware that only Democrats are in favor of raising it...and i typed exactly what i meant
Your original post called out the tea party as being the root cause and I immediately called you out on it. Nice catch before the edit timer expired. BUT... You know exactly what you originally typed. Don't try to weasel out of it now.
and FYI... The last time this came up, Obama (then a senator) mentioned that raising the debt ceiling was "a failure of leadership" So what is it now? The thing to do? (Hint: He was right the first time.)
"Debt will destroy this nation, and i'm not surprized, the party that wishes to destroy this nation, is in favor of increasing the National debt and it's ceiling...Not raising the debt limit forces a balanced budget starting may 15 2011,"
Mr.PheasNiques,
It is people like you who just don't understand what is at stake. If we default now we will loose the good faith and reputation that has allowed us to borrow at such "low" interest rates. If this should occur we will head nose down into the "2nd Great Depression" where the prospect of ever paying off our debt will be remote to nearly impossible. This is like trying to make a commitment to all parties concerned that you are going to reign in your spending and balance your books while first telling the bank that you are defaulting. If this Country declares bankruptcy this Country WILL BECOME BANKRUPT and you dear sir will like the rest of us will be out of job and living on the streets. Try to think this one through!!!! Think!!!! I know it takes some effort!
yes i posted, waited 10 minutes for your post, and since I have a extra special timer (15 min)...are you high...just admit you misread or mis understood
FYI....he's a politician...he says exactly what he thinks will help him today, and exactly what he thinks will help him tommorow, even if they are exact opposites...with a base that's not going to call him on it...it's a mute point....If he said the sky is green, that's what color it is
Tank
We are so far beyond ever being able to pay back the money we have already borrowed...the world isn't stupid....they know the end is coming....maybe you should try thinking
Great posts, Mr. Roger & Tank!!
Unfortunately, its not entirely the fault of Scott and MrPhea for not seeing the big picture. The mainstream media treats them like mushrooms. Feeds them a bunch of s**t and keeps them in the dark. What else can you expect?
MrPhea...
Perhaps I did misunderstand and for that I apologize.
"FYI....he's a politician...he says exactly what he thinks will help him today, and exactly what he thinks will help him tomorrow, even if they are exact opposites...with a base that's not going to call him on it...it's a mute point....If he said the sky is green, that's what color it is"
Spot on. Unlike virtually all democrats (and republicans), you actually hold your party to the standards that you expect the other party to live up to. I applaud you for that. There are a seldom few that do that...on both sides. That, in conjunction with non-existent journalist standards, are what fractures us as a country.
So when IS a good time to default?
It is people like you that don't understand that when you are in a hole, first stop digging. Digging deeper into debt makes things worse. Get it?
I'm surprized someone thinking they can see a big picture, believes climbing higher in the tree is a good idea just because we have a slightly longer rope.....every single dollar and day that we put this off it going to be that much worse
the only way i'd be in favor, is if new ceiling is set for Oct 1...new budget must be balanced...and all future budgets
And yet, the rich just keep getting richer.
Don't be too sure. For example, take a look at this: Republicans haven't always been consistent on this issue, either. Were they right then or now?
http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1500-The-Republicans-Haven-t-Always-Been-Against-Raising-the-Debt-Ceiling
So ... were they right then or now?
Anna...
I'm completely on board with you. The republicans are JUST as guilty of causing this mess. I'm an conservative indi... I don't give a rat's azz...I'll call them both out. :) Great point, Anna!!
In my opinion, they (the repubs) were wrong for not addressing long term debt when raising it last time. I'm glad they seemed to have learned from that mistake.
Scott: I'm dumb so you'll have to explain to me how spending even more money we don't have will improve the economy. 250 years of "compromise" got us into this mess and compromise will not get us out. Time for some harsh medicine.
We're broke, it's all been spent by the Republicans and the Democrats to buy votes to get re-elected. Now, everyone is going to have to share the pain, the rich and the poor. No exemptions for anyone. Expect some hurt because its coming.
Leftleaninglisa...
That has nothing to do with the article, but I'll address it....
You can evenly redistribute every single penny in this country amongst every person in it. You know what the end result will be? The rich will be rich again, and the poor will be poor again. What separates the rich from the poor isn't money...it is education, work ethic, and motivation. Are there some one off exceptions like lotto winners? Sure... But even those that just inherited it got it from someone that A) Loved them enough to give it to them, and... B) Had the education, work ethic, and motivation to get it to begin with.
How does that entitle you to THEIR money or are you just jealous they have it and you don't? I'm not rich...far from it. I'm just getting started in life but trending well. If I don't fight for the right to keep what I earn now, I'm relegated to being forced into giving my money to jealous people that aren't willing to work as hard as I did to get there. I know I'm not guaranteed to even get rich...I just want to preserve that opportunity.
The current administration and dems seem to hate that idea...at least that's what they tell you. Funny thing about them...they're all rich. A word to the wise...don't trust a hypocrite.
Tell me Jess -
Who controlled the Congress the last time the debt ceiling was raised?
Remember the debt ceiling was raised from $8.2B to $9B in 2006 when Obama called it a "failure of leadership".
So did Republicans somehow raise the debt limit while they were in the minority in Congress?
The problem with reducing the debt is in the eyes of the person with the pen. Republicans want to reduce spending on the things that are unimportant to them and the Democrats want to cut spending on things that are unimportant to them. The threat to this country is dependency on foreign oil and many jobs could be created by producing our own fuel so start with eliminating farm and big oil subsidies. It's outdated and there is no valid reason to give "farmers" money to not farm any more since many of them now are rich land owners that wouldn't know a plow from a horse. Even if they only grow something that can be turned into bio-fuel they should not be paid to let their land set idle. It's welfare anyway you slice it for those land owners. This would create jobs to increase tax revenue and cut the budget at the same time. A win win situation for our country.
Dr Larry....
Read post 1.14....enough said. :)
Dr Larry, the Republicans were not a minority in congress in 2006 since they controlled the house with Republican Hastert as Speaker of the House.
Larry226: Everything is going to have to be cut, not just things the Republicans want to cut. This years overspending alone is $1.6 trillion; all the money isn't going to be found by going after social issues, although cumulatively the dollars certainly add up.
Defense, Social Security, Medicare, gov't unions, deductions, etc. are all going to have to change. No one can remain immune to the impact, poor or rich. This must be dealt with and if not now, when? If not our current elected officials, who? Let everyone be unhappy, that translates into a good plan.
One last thing: the gov't has enough money and giving them more in the form of tax increases is not the answer. Let the congressmen and senators show responsibility with the tax receipts they've got before they get anymore.
Bowing to your post, Norm!!! Spot on!! :)
If the government paid back the money it spend from the SS fund, SS would not be a factor in the budget. Now the money's gone, they don't want to pay it back.
Larry: if you follow the logic of Rep. Ryan: first you raid your kids piggy banks, then you tell your children they can't have the new bike they have been saving for, and only then do you tell your children that the money they have been saving was taken and given to the loan sharks to pay for the election.
You really need to start telling the children the truth from the beginning. We, the TeaPublicans, are going to take money from everyone else and give it to the wealthy and the corporations in the form of tax cuts and tax benefits. At lease Rep. Ryan is "bold" enough to start. He may be stupid, but he is bold.
Larry226: per your last post, the "government" you refer to as needing to repay the stolen SS money is made up of us; we are the government and there is no "repaying" as that money is gone.
dirp: Is what you are saying that we should continue to spend ourselves into history's ashbin? Reads that way, IMHO. Like our politicians, both rep and dem, you seem willing to talk about what should be as opposed to what is. Apparently you are feeding from the gov't trough and are afraid there is no more free gov't cheese. The answer is, no, there is no more free cheese. Like to book, the cheese has moved.
"debt will destroy this nation, and i'm not surprized, the party that wishes to destroy this nation, is in favor of increasing the National debt and it's ceiling...Not raising the debt limit forces a balanced budget starting may 15 2011, not 2055"
Oh, it would be nice if it actually worked that way, get everything straight by May.
Unfortunately that is impossible.
No one wants to raise the debt ceiling but the party you say wants to destroy the country is the party that realizes there is no other choice.
Fortunately there will be plenty of political cover on this because both parties are going to vote for it whether they like it or not.
norm903: I'm not a government cheese eater, but I have been feeding the rats in DC for too long to not recognize one when I see one. This "plan" by Rep. Ryan is just another part of the bait and switch put forth by the TeaPublican party last year.
Exactly how does the bait and switch take place: tax rates on the wealthy and corporations:
brings the top rate from 35 to 25 percent, and lowers the corporate rate from 35% to 25%.
At the same time, reduce spending on Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, and ABOVE ALL ELSE, repeal the health care reform act.
Read what this clown is proposing. It is nothing short of a horror story!!!
The "pathway to prosperity" is at budget.house.gov.
The reality is, the world will not allow the US to default on its debt. The economy of the entire world is, in some manor, all realated to the US economy. The debt ceiling will be risen, because it must. The alternative, default, would destroy the world. Even the Tea Party is not in favor of destroying the world (at least I hope not.)
Dirp...
What's the URL for the democratic plan? www.silent.crikets.gov? Yeah, that's it. Oh...maybe I'm wrong. It might be at www.wait.for.the.republican.plan.before.we.grow.a.pair.at.the.wh.gov.
Yeah...that's the ticket. At least they have a plan and had the kahoonies to propose one first. What does the pollster-in-chief have? Nothing...typical for a campaigner...BUT he is supposed to be a leader. The election was 2 years ago. When will he lead?
I don't oppose raising the debt limit, I oppose raising the debt limit without both parties getting serious about reducing spending and putting our morbidly obese (fattened by BOTH parties) government on a tough love diet !!
Actually dirp they are very much in favor of it.
The debt cieling is a no compromise subject for them.
"What's the URL for the democratic plan?"
Obama is rolling it out this week.
Fortunately he had the chance to see how Ryans failure of a budget blew up in Ryans face so Obama can tailor his plan to something a little more palatable to the people.
Hey did you see how Ryan is even distancing himself from his own creation?
He said it's more of a set of guidelines now.
LOL
Wow-
First Chris Matthews, and now CNN's Elliot Spitzer...they just love Alan Simpson now that Paul Ryan has submitted his budget proposal. Simpson and debt commission co-chair Erskine Bowles are suddenly...absolutely brilliant!
Maybe Matthews and Spitzer realized that they'll be lucky to end up with Bowles-Simpson, and the recommendations of the President's own debt commission...as well as the commission Plan that President Obama has been treating like a red-headed stepchild.
Hypocrites...
dirp: There is no bait and switch. In exchange for lowering the corporate rates most (let's hope) of the loopholes and tax breaks will be eliminated; lower rates but higher taxes. In reality few things that will not stand on their own economic merits but instead rely on gov't regulation and tax breaks deserve to survive in a capitalist system.
And even if the rates went down, what is wrong with rewarding the productive class? At the end of the day the cheese eaters need them to be healthy enough to pay for the scrapswith which the non-producers satisfy themselves.
I don't know, but the article sounds like the Regular Republicans and the independents are getting on board with the tea party. Sounds like the the majority of the people are realizing they have to be the hateful parents to their teenage politicians.
Dosh...
"Obama is rolling it out this week."- And why wasn't he leading on this issue in more than 2 years? After all he's the president what more important to the economy than the budget? Now he's being challenged by a FRESHMAN congressman on the national stage after only 3 months in office. Seriously? Is that what the Presidency of the United States has now stooped to? It takes a 3 month old junior congressman to FINALLY prompt the president into action after 2 years. Most people have a saying for that..."a day late and a dollar short."
Seriously? What's next? A war in the middle east where we let some little piss ant dictator draw us into a stalemate civil war b/c we couldn't act decisively on short notice and told him what we wouldn't do militarily? Hmmm...food for thought. The thing about being a leader is you are or you aren't. There is no such thing as a halfway leader.
"Fortunately he had the chance to see how Ryans failure of a budget blew up in Ryans face so Obama can tailor his plan to something a little more palatable to the people." - You summarized it perfectly... He sits on the sidelines to see what the other person is going to do, look at the polls, see how people react, and then base his decision on how others feel. That's not a leader...that is a lack of leadership. Thank you for proving my point.
"Hey did you see how Ryan is even distancing himself from his own creation? He said it's more of a set of guidelines now."- It was and is only a non-binding frame work based on the debt commission recommendations. It never was even proposed as a resolution. It was something to start a debate that the dems REFUSED to do b/c they lacked the political back bone to do what was right to begin with. They want/wanted to EXPAND the spending lunacy.
When these "deep thinkers" finally figure out what would happen if America defaults on it's loans...the poll numbers will change. Meanwhile the Tea Partiers will push the R's right to the brink with their rhetoric and panic the markets before they cave. Imagine if they ever had real power.
@ Dr. Larry -- In case you missed it, my article cites the 2006 numbers -- 51 republicans in the Senate voted to raise the debt ceiling. It was not the first time, but as they also lost control of the Senate that year, it was the last. Read the article.
109-H.J.Res.47 – Debt limit increase resolution (2006)
$8,965,000,000,000
51 (republican votes)
AP...
Then I ask you...what would it be like if we kick our debt up to 20 trillion, 30, or 40 trillion...then default b/c w can't pay the intrest? How bad would it get then? What do you thing the poll numbers will be like then? How long to we have to kick the bucket down the road before we tackle the real problem?
It's kinda hard to sit hear and read someone that is deep as a "puddle" not see past the next 5 years and look at where we'll be in 10-20. Perhaps you should equally blame the POTUS or 111th congress for not coming up with "his/their" plan sooner. Like Senator Obama said a little over 5 years ago, "raising the debt limit is a faiure of leadership." He was partly right, he should have said, "raising the debt limit is a faiure of leadership without long term spending reform"
Who controlled congress in 2006? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Jess,
Actually we are the only country that has a debt ceiling. When it was first established in 1917 we were on the gold standard but since we went off of the gold standard the debt ceiling is no longer meaningful. Now it only serves as another political platform to shout gloom and doom.
If the debt ceiling was at $40 trillion does not mean we would spend more or faster. How soon some forget the debt is controlled with the spending bills not with the debt ceiling.
Because Jess, a big chunk of our debt and defecit are due to emegency stimulus spending to get the economy going again. Cutting government spending at the same time kind of defeats the whole stimulus thing. The recovery is really taking off now so this is the first time we have had an oppotunity to cut spending.
OMG. an elected official trying to make policy that reflects the will of the people! The horror! Hey man, Ryan had that opportunity to with Obama's first budget proposal. He's still got to get reelected in '12 so I can't blame him, I'd have done the samething too.
No it wasn't. I gave up smoking pot a long time ago so don't assume my memory is burned out. That's where it's sitting now, as more folks read it and the fallout spreads it's steadily diminished in relevance.
What's never mentioned in these articles is the 'third option' - Keep paying the interest on the debt, but cut 'discretionary spending' to keep under the limit.
Roy,
The deficit is greater than the discretionary spending part of the budget and the Department of Defense accounts for about half of all discretionary spending.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget#Total_spending
Dennis and Roy: as Rep. Ryan has inartfully pointed out, its all discretionary spending, except the interest payments on the debt.
At any time, ANY part of the budget can be changed. Defense, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, EPA, FCC, SEC, FBI, CIA, DHS, even (heaven forbid) salaries of Congress can be lowered and any programs can be eliminated.
What the TeaPublicans fail to realize, is that if you eliminated ALL domestic "discretionary spending" (that is excluding SS, Medicare/Medicaid) you would still have a deficit. Yet they continue to endorse proposals which: 1. Do not address increasing revenues and 2. Do not address the out of control military budget. This continued failure to look at those to areas as a realistic approach to deficit reduction is the reason why they will not receive the support of independents and Democrats.
TO: Jess-1177200 who wrote:
“What good is extending the debt limit without addressing the programs (Medicaid. Medicare, & SS) that are making us insolvent?...”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Social Security isn’t making you insolvent, the FACT is that Republicans borrowed our retirement money from the Social Security Trust Fund and now want to cry that they borrowed more money than they can afford to pay us back so they want to try to find a way to stiff us.
People really don’t understand that the money in Social Security DOES NOT belong to the Federal Government, it belongs to those of us who have been contributing to Social Security all our working lives, and we will NOT allow you to rob us blind by taking our money and then not giving it back. Had Republicans asked us in the first place for permission to borrow we would have told them NO.
You should know, President Bill Clinton replaced and replenished the Social Security Trust Fund after Republicans raided it before, and when President Clinton left office he left a surplus in Social Security to cover the next 40 years.
After Republicans took the White House, Republicans took ALL our money out of Social Security and left an “IOU” signed by George W. Bush.
Did Obama ever get it wrong with his 2012 Budget Proposal - Version 1.0. You don't get too many "Do-Overs" in politics, the media generally doesn't allow for that. But with the media continuing to be firmly in love with Obama, it looks like he'll get a second bite of the apple. Lets hope the Obama 2012 Budget Proposal - Version 2.0 brings a bit more sanity to the Presidents thinking.
And lets remember Mr. Obama, be sure to recycle all the paper you used to print your 2012 Budget Proposal - Version 1.0. It's the right thing to do.
Poor Obama - the debt deficit cats are out of the bag and there is no way they can be ignored.
Cut, cutting, sliced and diced.
Hell at this point I'd be happy if he could cut spending back to add less than $1 Trillion will be added in '12. Too bad we know 1. he can't, and 2. he won't.
Spanky - this will be one of those "Out year" budgets. That's where the major portion of the "cuts" are done in years 8, 9, and 10 of a 10 year plan. So Obama will spend, spend, spend, only to cut trillions in the years 2019, 2020, and 2021. Of course he'll be long gone as President. Like he isn't already.
Plus it will fun to compare Obama's Budget Version 1.0 to the Obama Budget Version 2.0. And if that doesn't work, I'm certain Obama will come out with Budget Version 3.0. The man is a never ending source of entertainment.
Uh-oh, First Readers...
President Obama is REALLY going to need Speaker Boehner...isn't he?
JoAnnaSmith1-
He'd better get it right this time.
Boehner's going to be ready for the slightest hint of BS.
He'll make the President pay dearly if that's the approach.
" But with the media continuing to be firmly in love with Obama..."
Leave Fox out of this....
I gotta say after watching Plouffe on MTP yesterday I am cautiously optimistic that Obama, and most democrats are starting to get it.
Sure we'll never get through to the truly stupid and ignorant, like Pelosi, but Obama is looking to get re-elected. He ran and hid with his last budget offering. THis one might just be a real attempt at reform.
Or he might vote present again, but regardless the Tea Party and Boehner truly got his nads in a vice.
Should be fun, no?
And man, what with the debt ceiling and budget talks on the slate, now is a tuff time to be a progressive/dem. I darn near felt a little sorry for their boy Krugman. Sure he is silly - stupid and needs to move to Europe, but he was a true believer and is finally getting that Obama's is ONLY EVER going to vote present.
In Obama's 2012 Budget Version 2.0, he's going to propose raising taxes on the "Richest Americans", I guess the upper 2%. Now, Obama negotiated the extension of unemployment benefits as part of that deal with the Republicans to keep those tax rates the same, will he also now rescind those unemployment benefit extensions? A deals a deal, right?
My bet is those unemployment extensions will be inconspicuously absent from Obama's 2012 Budget Version 2.0.
Krugman is going to explode, if he hasn't already. Paul might just vote the Socialist ticket this time around. I guess he thought he was doing so the last time around.
Want to hear a good one JoAnna & Spanky?
As Fesity would say ........ lol
"He'll make the President pay dearly if that's the approach".
Mixed Bag,
It is people like you who just don't understand what is at stake. If we default now we will loose the good faith and reputation that has allowed us to borrow at such "low" interest rates. If this should occur we will head nose down engines on fire into the "2nd Great Depression" where the prospect of ever paying off our debt will be remote to nearly impossible (read some history start with the Weimar Republic between the Wars) . This is like trying to make a commitment to all parties concerned that you are going to reign in your spending and balance your books while first telling the bank that you are defaulting. If this Country declares bankruptcy this Country WILL BECOME BANKRUPT and you dear sir will like the rest of us will be out of job and living on the streets. In the end WE WILL ALL PAY!
Too funny, Bag Boy. Now that they've discovered that their interests are similar, I think you'll find that they need each other.
Just like Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan, you know? Really.
JoAnnaSmith1-
If President Obama tried to renege on his agreement to extend all of the Bush tax cuts, and I were Speaker Boehner, I'd first tell the President that a deal is a deal.
And, that any changes are simply out of the question.
Then, I'd say...
"What spending cuts will you give me in exchange for the extension of the tax cuts for the top 2%...the tax cuts you've already signed into law?
What offer are you putting on the table, Mr. President?"
Then...
It's on, isn't it?
It's a miracle Krugman isn't on life support today. Someone needs to keep him away from tall buildings and high ledges.
It is so on! And Speaker Boehner is leading Obama around by the nose.
Tank Carson-
It's not me who doesn't understand the implications of not raising the debt ceiling.
Actually, that would be then-Senator Barack Obama (D-IL), and the other 47 U.S. Senators who voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006.
I'm relieved that both of you now seem to agree that it's a bad idea.
Sorry, AM-
Have you forgotten?
Speaker Boehner is in a box...beholden to the Tea Party.
It's going to be tough for Boehner to get out...depends on what incentives President Obama offers.
It's all about motivation, Anna Molly.
Boehner is a complete idiot being led by the Libertarians aka TEA party. If they don't get their crap together soon the Republicans may as well change their name to the Libertarian party. Or maybe they should be called the the TEA Religious Right Libertarian NRA party aka TEARRNRAL party. I don't even recognize my old party anymore. I left the Republican party when they started catering to the nut cases.
Speaking of budgets.
Have you guys noticed how pissed off Ryans budget has made people?
How it has been rejected and is unifying the independents in opposition to the Republicans?
That even the GOPs presidential hopefuls refuse to support it because they know it will mean a swift death?
They did give Ryan some kind words, kind of like when your kid brings you a drawing and you hang it on the fridge.
Oh and so far as Boehner.
Hate to tell you
But he, Reid and Obama seem to be working to get his TP problem taken care of.
Guess what.
When it comes down to it your heroes will vote to raise the debt ceiling.
And if not then Boehner will go to congressional democrats for the votes.
Which will give both Democrats and establishement Republicans more ammunition to use against the Tea Party.
Calling each other names and gloating aren't going to get us out of this crisis. We have to work together to solve this. Maybe this could be a moment for us to realize we are all Americans and we are have to make some tough choices. I am at the age where raising the retirement age would affect me but if that's what we have to do then do it. I want this nation to succeed.
Well put lisa s.
Lisa -Iam retired and on a rather tight fixed income but if I have to pay more to save this country so be it.I don't claim to be the brightest star in the sky but giving tax cuts on the backs of the most needy just doesn't make sense to me.
Folks, remember the New World Order? Welcome to it. The US is "out". It started when we went off the gold standard, remember?
Boehner has a big enough headache with the Tea Baggers and trying to stay in office.
Based on all that's going on worldwide, I'd say we've been in a depression for at least 5 years, now.
I really admire European countries for aggressively addressing the issue of alternate energies. As you see, the oil companies are hanging on to the USA, getting their last digs in before something catastrophic happens. Greed is their mantra. Remember: you can't take it with you.
RETIRED--Can't take it with me but I would like to decide what to do with it while I'm here. The needy get more from charity than the Government we are the MOST giving country in the world. You can't multiply wealth by dividing it. Most Americans give to the needy on their own let's keep the gov out of it.
You admire the Europeans, Please that's a bigger catastrophe than here.
Old Man, Very noble of you but I didn't mean for people who are already retired to give more. I meant it to be for people with a little time to prepare. Look forward to talking to you in the future.
The debt ceiling is a simple-minded exercise in futility to rein in a Congress afraid to come to grips with by far the single largest discretionary part of the budget--defense. So, once again, cuts will be made on the backs of the poor.
Cutting defense spending, which seems to be the only thing most liberals want to cut, is useless. Defense spending makes up less than 20% of the budget. If you really want to get serious about cutting the budget, entitlements will need to be cut - especially when they make up over 50% of the budget.
Keep in mind that we currently borrow about 30% of the budget under Obama.
Cutting alone, which is all the conservatives will consider isn't enough.
Look at Ryans budget. Everyone considers it to be hardcore but it still doesn't get our house in order a decade from now.
Because he won't consider tax increases.
Budget cuts by themselves are useless.
So its NOT OK to cut even half defense which we can approximate at 10% of the budget? You arent going to find a single item to cut to eliminate our annual deficit.
Anybody want to bet that it will be raised? I will bet $100k. Any takers. There is nothing that either party can do. They are not the ones who make these decsions. THEY do. The ponzi scheme wil continue until THEY are ready to end it. Period.
THEY are very happy with this turmoil. Are you?
MrPheaNiques...
Perhaps you should read the article. It said that INDEPENDANTS and NON-TEA PARTY REPUBLICANS...oppose raising it. The pictures are pretty but the context of the article is found in the words.
" The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."
-Barack Obama, 2006
Couldnt agree more.
Agreed. G. W. Bush put us into a situation now that no matter how distasteful it is, we have no choice but to raise the debt ceiling until we can agree to make the huge sacrifices that will be needed to fix this mess.
President Obama regrets HIS vote. But how about all these Republicans, who voted FOR raising the debt ceiling before they decided they were against it? Do THEY regret their votes, too?
http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1500-The-Republicans-Haven-t-Always-Been-Against-Raising-the-Debt-Ceiling
p.s. There's a chart and everything, so you can read all about it.
Thermen -
Do you have any idea what the debt was in 2006?
Do you have any idea what it is now?
If you know both of those, you would then know that the debt increased 60% in that time period - which was exactly the time period when the Dems took over Congress.
Oh, I forgot to ask - Do you know who passes legislation, including budget and appropriations?
Hint - it's Congress, not the President.
Time to stop blaming Bush. That is so, umm, 2008.
Dr Larry,
Bush signed into law what the Republican Congress passed from 2001 thru 2006 that included budgets that did not include the 2 wars that did not account for the lost revenue for the tax cuts of 2001 & 2003 that did not finance the Medicare prescription drug plan for seniors.
Dennis -
Considering that the democrats wanted an even larget prescription drug plan for seniors, Bush was caught between a rock and a hard place on that one. Perhaps you should research your propaganda before you post it?
Oh, and the wars that were fought 'off budget'? Look it up, you will find that all of our wars have generally been fought 'off-budget', although they always show up in the national debt as they are handled with appropriations bills. Again, perhaps you should research your claims before you post so that you don't sound uneducated.
What is your point?
Show me the money.
Answer the questions I asked Thermen.
Quit blowing smoke.
Bush and the Repub Congress ran up debt.
Obama and the Dems drove it up an additional 60% since 2006, which is when they took control of Congress, who actually passes the legislation.
Democrats very much voted for those "two wars" and continue to vote for their funding today.
And as to budget tricks - Obama is promising "things will get better in the future" according to his crystal ball, and we all know the current fiscal path is a disaster.
Oh, and about that 3rd war in Libya - the one Congress did NOT approve...........
"DR" Larry
Time to stop blaming Bush.
Time to stop blaming Obama for the problems caused by Bush and the Congress.
Tammy,
Wars of any length have been covered with a “war tax”. You need to check some facts.
The fact that Dems wanted larger dollars for prescription does not mean it should be left out of the budget. And Bush could have voted any of them – he had the majority in congress to hold his veto.
Actually if you look at the voting records, every single time the debt cieling has been raised the party the president does not belong to is in opposition to it.
Every single time, doesn't matter what party it is.
Nothing new here.
I forget but when was the funding of the wars removed from emergency appropriations? Yeah - back to the short bus with you.
Thank you, FR. I've been waiting for this. Seems these self-righteous Republicans demagogues were FOR raising the debt ceiling before they were against it.
http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1500-The-Republicans-Haven-t-Always-Been-Against-Raising-the-Debt-Ceiling
But Anna Molly--that was then and this is now---we are meant to believe that they have all changed!
How do they propose the country pay its liabilities?
They propose that WE pay the country's liabilities, Steeler Fan. And if they "fix" Medicare and Social Security, thereby imposing a hidden post hoc tax on people who have already paid into the system, but will see no benefits, they'll win.
Ya'see Annie, someone once said, sometimes there is good hypocrisy, sometimes there is bad hypocrisy . . . . . .
Words to live by.
@Steeler Fan: It doesn't matter, then vs. now. Many Republicans voted to raise the debt ceiling, meaning more debt, which is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of the beliefs of republicans and conservatives alike. They didn't vote in contrast to their beliefs for no reason at all.
I looked up the word hypocrite in the dictionary. It had a picture of Obama.
Obama was against it, now he is for it. Obama is a hypocrite in more ways than one. Listen to his speeches and then watch his actions.
FINALLY, some people with some common sense. No we should not raise the debt limit ever again. Period. We cannot continue to spend money we don't have and we will have to cut entitlements. There is no other way around this mess. Raising taxes is only part of the answer and everyone needs to be paying taxes so instead of raising taxes on the wealthy, here's something to chew on, how about the 47% of the folks who pay NO taxes but use all our resources pay some taxes. Sorry. I am tired of paying the way for a bunch of freeloaders.
When you can't pay your bills, you'd usually get a second job (not so much these days) to increase your income. The key here is "when in debt, increase your income". The government's version of a "second job to increase income" should be to Raise Taxes!!! Shoulda been done a long time ago (actually was, we are where we are because of tax-cuts and increased deductions over the years). Or, you could just starve your kids to death, or, in the governments version, that would be starve your citizens to death!! Teahadis, fatten up, your next!!!
Bull. The government already takes (steals) my income. The fix is to quit overspending.
Do you have any clue at all what small percentage of tax filers actually pays the vast majority of the federal income tax?? Do you? Think very small number and then a big number.
I'll help you out.
The top 20% pay 70% of ALL federal income tax.
The top 1% pay 24% of all federal income tax.
The "bottom" half pay nothing, zero, nada, zilch - with many getting a credit, i.e., a negative tax.
What group are YOU in?
(If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, I got those number from an NPR interview that was posted. Hardly a right-wing website, wouldn't you say? Just google "Who pays federal income tax".)
Hey larry, I already got my tax bill in, does that mean I can have an opinion?
Ryan already jiggled the numbers on fixing everything without tax increases, he couldn't do it even 10 years out.
Tax increases have to be part of the solution.
So you are an anti-constitutional tea bagger?
LOL! And how much of the wealth do they control? You idiots spin all day long. Im surprised you're not dizzy.
Fire krotch worst argument yet. Raising taxes isn't a second job unless you consider stealing from others a real job. Stop the spending.When time get tough you tighten the belt. Bush spent too much Obama should learn from that but he isn't capable.
First of all, let me say, I support reigning in spending. I would like to see reforms in SS, Medicare, Medicaide, Defense, and duplicative programs. I'm young, (30) There will be time for people my age to plan accordingly.
Secondly, in response to time4truth, Taxes are at their lowest level of GDP since the 30's, deficits are at record highs. Seems to me that any rational person would see the correlation.
Why did Gregory ( Meet The press ) not push Paul Ryan on why he voted against the Presidents debt commissions recommondations?
I suspect it's because it's old news - Ryan didn't think the commission went far enough.
So Pat, were you di-heartened to see Plouffe effectively and totally throw in the towel on cuts. Now if, not when, but now and a lot.
Good things, right?
Actually, Spanky-
I think Ryan would have voted for the debt commission's Plan had it not assumed that Obamacare would be fully implemented.
Ryan is vehemently opposed to the Democrats' health care reform law and hopes that ultimately, because of the courts or otherwise...it won't prevail.
Because it included tax increases.
And Ryan is trying to finalize Reagans starve the beast philosophy with his budget.
That's why he's content to give us a half ass plan that still doesn't fix the problem a decade from now and will leave America in a malaise.
Ideology first you know.
So, dosh...
Have you experienced an epiphany?
Time to embrace the Plan of President Obama's own debt commission?
C'mon...
You can do it...
Even if the President hasn't.
Yeah I have.
It was about 5 years ago when I made the leap of logic that I was screwing myself over supporting the Republicans.
I don't have too much of a problem with the Debt Commision plan.
But not a half assed version of it.
"I don't have too much of a problem with the Debt Commision plan."
Me either, dosh...
Me either.
Never have.
So...what's President Obama's problem with it?
Do you have any idea?
The fact that it's potentially a political landmine duh huh.
If he had grabbed hold of it with both hands do you really think the GOP would have been able to resist using it as their new HCR?
Actually his remaining neutral was probably the better recourse. It allows the GOP the room to decide if it's acceptable or not instead of rejecting it outright as they would have done if he had come out with immediate support.
It's not like HCR at all, dosh.
Obamacare was passed without majority public support and absolutely no bipartisan support.
The debt commission was bipartisan and prominent conservatives support its Plan.
Try again.
Um, you missed the point there.
It would have been like HCR in it's potential for being used like a club to beat Obama over the head because that was the safe easy thing for the Republicans.
The GOP is desperate for another HCR issue while they watch Obama gain back his ground after the November elections.
Go on, tell me that wouldn't have happened.
Tell me if he came out in immediate full on support the Republicans wouldn't have gone into immediate full blown opposition.
Tell me the "prominent conservatives" would still be supporting it.
Then ask yourself if you really believe that.
Cause no one else does after watching our political theater since he took office.
Sorry, dosh-
The reason that HCR can be "used like a club to beat Obama over the head" is because Obamacare was passed without a majority of the public in favor of it and without any bipartisan support whatsoever.
There's no political downside or price to be paid for vigorously opposing legislation that a majority of the public opposes.
That's just the way it works, dosh.
A bipartisan proposal like the debt commission's Plan is another matter entirely.
The Plan was crafted by Republicans (and Democrats).
Some Republicans oppose it...some favor it.
A group of six U.S. Senators (3 Republicans, 3 Democrats) are nearing completion of legislation based on the debt commission's Plan.
That makes it completely different from Obamacare.
Oh I see where you're coming from now.
Yeah, we don't a utopian governing body that judges legislation solely on it's merit alone.
We have a coniving governing body that considers how useful or detrimental they can spin a players position and what sound bites will make the evening news.
I know that's not how they explained it to you in civics class, but really what have we seen that is?
We have two parties that pretty much reject whatever the other endorses out of hand.
Now what you missed is that Obama is a calculating SOB.
You didn't make the connection that the best way for him to save himself and the debt commisions recomendations is to stay neutral so the GOP has a chance to accept or reject it. Because the reality is they will, as in just about everything else he endorsed, reject it just because of him.
Welcome to America.
dosh-
Would you prefer that the governing body routinely pass major social legislation that majorities or pluralities of the public opposes, and that only one of the two major political parties supports?
If that's the case, you'll have Obamacare over and over again.
Because, that a surefire, guaranteed recipe for intractable, ongoing opposition to any legislation passed in that fashion, whatever the merits.
Just as you see with Obamacare, dosh.
The President and Congressional Democrats are learning...the hard way...that you reap what you sow.
The merits of Obamacare is a different argument...and the objections were ignored.
Suffice to say, I'm with those who believe the merits are out-weighed by the negatives.
But, you're certainly welcome to your own opinion.
And...I've been here for a long time.
You've given a pass to the massive conservative propaganda campaign that was waged against HCR.
That was the original point of this whole conversation.
You're supporting control of message and perception of legislation for the Republicans, but saying that it's wrong for the Democrats to do the same thing, or even to anticipate and react to it.
Make up your mind man. I expect all of them to abide by the convoluted set of rules they live by everyday.
You can't hold your side to lower standards than your opponents.
You might has well ask people to explain the general and special theories of relativity. People forget that our current debt is accruing interest forcing us to borrow more. It is far too simplistic to think we can spend the same this year as we did last year (or even in 2007). This is dangerous polling and dangerous politics. Intentionally creating an ignorant and misinformed electorate allows for demagogues to rise to the forefront.
Right on WM: People act as if there is an alternate solution. there is not a solution, outside of raising the ceiling right now. the debt is already there, the interest is already accruing, and there are no agreements on spending cuts or raising revenue right now. Therefore the ceiling must be raised in order to pay the interest we are accruing.
After the budget deals have been made, assuming they reign in deficit spending and pay enough towards the debt to reduce interest payements, THEN we can take this hard line "I will not raise the debt ceilling" stance. Doing so before that is simply irresponsible, and they know it...
No surprise at these numbers. The average people have a lot more common sense than the self-absorbed politicians in DC. Be warned congress! You are one election away from the unemployment line (if there's money still available for you to collect)
At some point Washington will be forced to reduce spending. Borrowing 40 cents of every dollar spent cannot go on forever. There will be cuts in every federal program and tax increases. The debt service on 14 trillion dollars will catch up to us. Washington needs to reduce the spending now. Unfortunatey politics will keep the cuts from happening until there is no choice. The tax increases will slow the economy and the program cuts will really hurt those in need. Too bad there are those that would either wait for this to happen or just plain do not understand that it will.
KJ. It is silly to suggest that politicians are any different then any other group or individual.
Patrick, they are made the same, but are CONDITIONED by their environment in DC. It is silly to assume that all people end up the same when living in different environments.
YES!!! CUT THE SPENDING! The Dems showed their true colors the last 2 years passing stimulus, TARP, and auto bailouts adding nearly $3 TRILLION in debt, but bail on a GOOD sound budget to reducing spend and throw crap at the Republicans for trying to get Washington spending under control including touching Entitlements!
Sel. If conservatives had not spent the eight years prior to Obama, in screwing up the economy, we would never have needed tarp.
TARP started under Bush/Cheney/Paulson.............is this that difficult to remember?
Reality! Reality, the truth and more understandable, common sense is what it is all about. As long as there are those spouting off the extremes and there are those people who shout emotional support for them, then things will continue to be absurd with no progress and with all of the stupid antics continuing.... or even worse as we have seen, with some bazaar individuals and policies being successful. Whenever the people actually get their head screwed on straight, and stop demanding/supporting unworkable and detrimental extremes, then the politicians will come around and have to cooperate (without the people's support to do otherwise) to achieve responsible centrist solutions.
Right, RGiles...
And...?
Look, NOBODY likes the idea of raising the debt limit to over $17 trillion...NOBODY. BUT, if it isn't raised, and the country plunges back into an even WORSE recession, will people like that better??
The first two things that will happen if they debt ceiling is NOT raised; 1) The government will be forced to raise taxes. 2) The government will be forced to reduce Social Security checks.
Is that what you wing-nuts really want?
Get a grip on reality folks. Bumper stickers WILL NOT solve our problems.
The first thing that would happen is a global financial system collapse, and the depression these extremist rascals deserve (but the rest of us don't).
But not paying you , will make a start>.
This whole thing is a joke. We are cutting programs for kids and poor people and we don't bother looking at 3 things, Medicare, SS and most importantly defense spending. We have tens of thousands of troops in Germany, Japan and other places that will never mean anything. We are fighting wars that we can not win and wasting money and lives and people are worried abut planned parenthood which provides services to women which by the way only 3% of their services are for abortions. This is the great Republican machine fixing our spending problems by cutting programs that help people and not dealing with the 3 major areas we have a probblem with. Why aren't these politicians doing what is really needed; because they are cowards. By the way the last time I checked this was the United States of America not the United States of Christians or any other faith.
The problem with most of what I am reading here is that most of the naysayers have no real understanding of government finance, the budget cycle, and the real meaning of the national debt. If you want to make the nation just like your household checking account cycle, it will hopelessly cripple its ability to function. If you want a preview, look at the states that have balanced budget constitutional requirements. If you want a look at what America on a restrictive austerity program would look like, take a look at what's wrong with England right now. They elected the British tea party and believe me it's no party. When the economy needs consumers, you can't get them by reducing unemployment payments, restricting infrastructure investments, and beggaring the middle class with stagnant wages and tax cuts for people who already spend as much as they care to. The businesses we want to hire are not hiring and it's not because they don't have the dough. Corporate profits and cash balances are at historically high levels. The hiring can't happen without demand. The only organization that is big enough to materially affect the economy through investments is the government when not much else is happening. Those who get it must feel like the sign-carrier trying to warn of the end of the world. No one else believes.
Advocacy of anything that would cause the USA to default on debt service payments, including failure to raise the debt ceiling at this time, is prima facie evidence of either insanity or treason.
Not raising the debt limit absolutely guarantees a drastic cut to all Social Security and disability monthly benefits. The cuts are to Current Payments; not to future payments. Tighten your belts or mooch on family.
Don't like it? Tough! Vote for the Tea Party = you can eat dog food.
HOLD ON A GD SECOND!
Are you trying to say there is no "trust" which ensures SS recipients the "investment" made over the course of their working life? There is no account with their number tied to it?
Who's lying? You, or the politicians?
Raising the debt ceiling is a terrible and horrendous thing to have to do, but thanks to inept management of our government for the past 10 years, it has to be done. We as a country need to stop looking at every single issue in terms of it favoring dems or repubs and start looking at what will benefit all Americans. When the media focuses so much effort as to which party won the shutdown fiasco that we just avoided, our priorities are screwed. America 1st, party 72nd, or even further down the list.
It's going to get a whole lot uglier before the blooming of the rose.
How ugly will it get? Well, the cracks in the septic tank will lead to bigger buds.
It'll be Obama standing thigh deep in the s**t.
Here's a crack: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/us/politics/12missouri.html?_r=2&hpw#
Republican plan to fix our financial crisis; Abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, abortion, and yes, MORE ABORTION bickering.
You really gotta pay better attention. Ryan and Paul have both submitted proposals which will cut 5 trillion dollars over 10 years.
The Dems? 400 billion.
Who's bickering about abortion aside from liberals such as yourself?
The CBO calls "Bullsh!t" on the Ryan plan.
Hey Thermen It's not abortion it's that fact the Government is paying for them through Planned parenthood when we can't afford to pay our own bills. if someone chooses to kill their baby fine I don't want to pay for it.
Planned Parenthood gets $300 million from government funding of their $1 billion budget (30%). Abortions account for only 3% of their entire budget and come from private funds (contributions) in the other 70% of their budget.
I will keep repeating this until it gets into people's thick heads: unless we both cut spending AND raise taxes, we'll never get anywhere on the debt that's been accumulated, that's just simple, plain logic.
I've been yelling that for awhile. It amazes me that people don't get it.
The reason why? Bumper stickers.
Dont forget that when raising taxes and cutting spending the economy will slow and dip back into a more severe recession. Millions more will default on mortgages, local governments will be driven past the tipping point and hundreds of thousands of businesses will fail. I believe these are all good things in the big scheme, but in the short term will be very painful. Once these debts are nationalized (60 trillion dollars) our national debt will far exceed our capacity to pay and the biggest economy on earth will fold.
There is no amount of taxes or spending cuts that will help now. We are already IN BANKRUPTCY! The only question you have to ask is if you want this to happen soon or wait a while?
The question of hyperinflation should have been asked when investments were returning 10 - 20% a year and life looked good. Credit was expanding nicely and all was hunky dory. Like ALL debt stories, what cannot go on forever will not go on forever.
Mark my words though NOTHING can be done to undo the damage that has occurred to this country and the world over the past 30 years. The choice is VERY CLEAR - Inflation or default. Either way, be clear YOU do not get your retirement!