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msnbc.com's Carrie Dann
msnbc.com's Carrie Dann
Tea Party activists gather in the shadow of the Capitol to urge budget cuts.
From msnbc.com's Carrie Dann
As budget negotiations continued inside the halls of Congress Thursday, a gathering of Tea Party activists huddled at a cold outdoor rally on Capitol Hill to send a message to the deal-makers inside:
They're ready to pick a fight.
A few hundred people -- far fewer than the massive rallies seen before last year's midterm elections -- who braved the dreary weather urged lawmakers to push deep cuts to the federal budget even if it results in a temporary shuttering of the government, chanting "Cut it or shut it!" and punctuating cheers with calls to "shut it down!"
"If Harry Reid wants a fight, let's give it to him!" said Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN), one of a parade of conservative lawmakers who made remarks at the event sponsored by the Tea Party Patriots.
Many of the rally's speakers were careful to note that Democrats are "rooting" for a shutdown and that GOP budget-cutters hope to avoid a funding lapse that would turn off the government's lights.
Democratic leaders "want to turn you into their scapegoats and blame the Tea Party for shutting the government down," said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN).
Rep. Allen West (R-FL) declared, "We are not here to talk about shutting the government down... But if you want to talk about shutting down the government, go over there and talk to Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid and the folks at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue!"
Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) told reporters after his brief remarks to the crowd that a federal closure is undesirable but would not be catastrophic.
"No Republican wants to shut the government down. I don't think anybody here really wants a shutdown," DeMint said, "but we shouldn't be so afraid of a shutdown that we can't make the right decisions right now." He added, "We can't be cowed by this threat."
The preemptive finger-pointing over a potential shutdown likely stems from the scars of the budget fights of the mid-1990s, when the public soured on GOP leaders in the wake of a series of federal closings.
A full federal closure "is not going to be very popular with the American people," warned Clinton-adviser-turned-conservative-commentator Dick Morris, who instead suggested a "targeted shutdown" of agencies -- like the EPA and the National Labor Relations Board -- that are loathed by Tea Party activists.
"We don't have to close down the government. We're going to close down the parts of the government we can't stand!" Morris said.
That sentiment was met with cheers -- as well as a smattering of shouts to "shut it down!"
*** UPDATE *** Here's a dispatch from NBC's Catherine Chomiak:
As the continuing resolution currently funding the government inches closer to its expiration date of April 8, Tea Party activists rallied today for a budget battle. Reps. Steve King (R-IA), Mike Pence (R-IN), Michele Bachmann (R-MN) and Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) fired up the crowd on a dreary day in Washington, D.C., with calls for a fight and threats of a government shutdown.
Congressman Pence, citing the current deficit, debt, and “defiant liberal majority in the Senate” said the time was right “to pick a fight."
“The debt stops here,” he said. “If liberals in the Senate would rather play political games and shut down the government instead of making a small down payment on fiscal discipline and reform, I say, 'Shut it down.'”
Representative and potential Republican presidential candidate Bachmann hit Democrats saying they are hoping for a government shut down. “That’s their plan," Bachmann said. "They want to shut the government down, and they want to turn you into their scapegoat and say, 'It’s the Tea Party’s fault for shutting the government down.'"
Paul urged the Tea Party members to keep up their political involvement. “The fight is just beginning,” he vowed. “Keep their feet to the fire, call them, email them, let them know that you are prepared for America to move forward, but only by balancing the budget and making government smaller.”
In addition to a fight on the budget, King showed support for his fellow House Republican saying, “We need to fight on Mike Pence’s proposal on unfunding (sic) Planned Parenthood… And we need to fight on cutting off the funding that implements Obamacare.”
Bachmann also got loud cheers from the crowd when she proposed sending “a change of address form to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.”
This is something Bachmann has said before and will probably be said again, as she continues to consider a 2012 presidential bid.
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First who will suffer with a shutdown
The Poor, Old, Middle Class
Who will keep going as if nothing happened
The Rich, Big Business, Big Oil , House and Senate they will make sure they get paid on time
They say they don't want to shutdown but if they don't get everything they want then they will
Like 70 Billion for the Rich tax cuts, 56 Billion for Big Oil, 660 Billion for Defense Contractors, 140 Billion for Big Farmers, 200 Billion for Tax cuts for the Koch Brothers
If they don't make enough cuts or they don't shut the government down, Obama will never have a chance at reelection.The debt will have crushed the country and the economy and who is going to vote for Obama under those conditions (beside the Obamabot freaks that will vote for him no matter what he does).
Obama will win because the potential field of GOP nominees is looking either pretty weak or pretty whacked. either way Obama wins the prize.
Unless the GOPers can come up with a better slate of candidates to choose from, I think you are right. Obama will not be blamed for a shutdown ~ even if he vetoes a slash and burn budget. The vast majority of Americans know who is driving this issue and they see that Republicans don't have the guts to stand up to a splinter minority. If the T-Sippers were representative of the majority, their numbers would be growing by leaps and bounds. They are not. It doesn't require MENSA skills to read that message.
a few hundred people...underwhelming...tea party, time's about up! the more you scream the more we learn about you and your narrow minded motives...
There's a whole lot of animosity on this thread, and I won't touch that.
I will say, for the record even, that the 'rules' for your economic debates should at least be agreed upon prior to launching tirades at each other.
The liberals are, obviously, believes in Keyenesian economics. Government spending stimulates private-sector spending.
The Tea-party fellows are, just as obviously, believers in the Austrian School which says that government spending doesn't impact private sector whatsoever, but government TAXES/DEBT can hinder private sector advancement.
Thus, the liberals will continue citing government spending as a necessity to economic recovery.
The teaparty fellows will, just as quickly, launch into objections about taxes and debt.
Everyone is pointed at economic recovery, you're just approaching it from two opposite sides.
Btw. I am a tea party supporter, because I believe Keynesian economcis has been proven completely false.
I'm also a registered democract because I am a huge proponent of labor.
The two don't need to be mutually exclusive. Quit hating, people, and think. If you can't empathize on where your opponent is coming from, you can't honestly hope to win a debate with them. You're not 'proving points', you're just all proving your mulishness and egocentricity.
I have a new favorite person. Well posted.
Your tea party wants to keep the subsidies for oil but want the grants for cancer research unfunded. If you like those kinds of people, what does that say about you.
It says that they don't want their gas prices to go up, and they don't want to cure the plagues of the 20th and 21st century.
Besides, as someone who's worked in government before, I'm not a fan of the wasteful nature of the government procurement office (read the FAR sometime. it's totally abused in terrible ways) :( I don't have a better alternative, nor am I saying I do, but I got out of that sector for a reason.
Did I miss something there?
i disagree with you, teknishan, keynesian economic theory has not been proven completely false. to the contrary. since the early 70's to today, from Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, we've had 28 years of the last 40 in republican presidents and in trickle down, voo doo economics, with tax breaks for the wealthy and the corporations with the idea it'll trickle down to the rest of us and promote growth. um, yeah, well look where we are at. we could have had a completely balanced budget by now if we would have followed the Clinton model and paid for the iraq/afghanistan wars by NOT giving millionaires and billionaires tax cuts they didn't need. end of story. .. and you're a registered democrat but a tea party proponents... um, yeah, i really don't believe that story either.
Your belief on my political views is immaterial, I don't really care.
Clinton didn't spend quite as heavy (GDP percentage-wise) as the others cited if memory serves correctly. So one could say he didn't approach the Keyenesian theory with as much 'vigor' as the republican presidents cited.
On a related note...
It could also be proposed that Nixon was the first neo-con, in that instance, or a republican believing in Keyenesian economics (however you choose to label it). Prior to him, Eisenhower, didn't buy into Keyenesian economics at all and left office with a monetary surplus coming into the country.
It only took the Fed from W.Wilson to Nixon to convince government that long-term deficit spending, and a full fiat system, was a good idea. 50 years or so.
In seven short years, under massive Keynesian spending, the U.S. went from the greatest depression it has ever known to the greatest economic boom it has ever known. (yes, massive military spending for world war II is a Keynesian principle ). The success of Keynesian economics was so resounding that almost all capitalist governments around the world adopted its policies. And the result seems to be nothing less than the extinction of the economic depression! Before World War II, eight U.S. recessions worsened into depressions (as happened in 1807, 1837, 1873, 1882, 1893, 1920, 1933, and 1937). Since World War II, under Keynesian policies, there have been nine recessions (1945-46, 1949, 1954, 1956, 1960-61, 1970, 1973-75, 1980-83, 1990-92 ), and not one has turned into a depression. The success of Keynesian economics was such that even Richard Nixon once declared, "We are all Keynesians now." .. consequently, to claim that Keynesian economics has been proven completely false is not only ignorant, but ridiculous... or maybe even ridiculously ignorant.
I suggest we put the theories to test. Since we have explored the impact of the Keyenesian principle for a considerable time, sufficient to sample results ~ let us implement the Austrian principle for a full presidential term and then compare the results. I would say we apply the latter principle for a least a decade to obtain a more solid assessment, but I don't think we would survive that long as a nation or society. Neither principle can be accepted as an absolute nor are results predictable under either plan as variables will impact the final outcome. We cannot control those variables which ultimately impose consequences that must be addressed under either plan for economic and societal stability. Therefore, the only perfect method is to balance revenues and expenditures. My, my ~ what a novel concept.
wrong again Jim:
During the 70s, monetarism reached the peak of its popularity among conservative economists. Today, however, Friedman stands virtually alone among top economists in his belief that it contains any merit. Monetarism was tried in Great Britain during the 80s and it proved to be a disaster. For almost seven years, the Bank of England tried its best to make it work. According to monetarist theory, the British economy should have enjoyed low inflation and high stability. But in fact, it went berserk. The economy sank into a deep recession, while the lead economic indicators zigged and zagged. Although inflation came down, this was at the price of rising unemployment, which soared from 5.4 to 11.8 percent. Between 1979 and 1984, manufacturing output fell 10 percent, and manufacturing investment fell 30 percent. Eventually, the Bank of England came under overwhelming pressure to abandon monetarism, which it did in 1986. The experiment was such a failure that not even conservatives abroad wish to repeat it. YET, except the conservatives here in the united states of america. yeah, let's try that failure of an experiment.
Oh, Spanks ...
Were you this outspoken from the 80s on? Im curious if this is a newfound outrage due to circumstances not readily apparent.
Spanky was probably in diapers in the 80s, if his parents weren't too drunk to put them on!!
instead of just cutting some of the budget Why don't we get Big bussiness like Boing, GE, BoA, Exxon Mobil, Chevron, Goldman Sach to pay there fair share of Tax.
Exxon 19 Billion in Profit in 09 Paid No Federal Tax and received 156 Millon refund from the IRS
BoA received 1.9 Billion tax refund last year with a 4.4 Billion Profit and got a bail out.
Boeing got a 30 billion contract but also got a 124 million refund last year from the IRS
Citigroup made 4 Billion in profit but Paid No federal income tax but did receive a 2.5 Trillion Bail Out.
source / Bernie Sander on the ten worst corp tax avoiders. http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/12533
Time for Big Corp to pay there taxes. This BS trickle down effect is a LIE!
Eoin...
I personally don't think that public corporations should pay any taxes at all. They just add their tax liability to the price of their wigits or whatever they produce and therefore, we are paying their taxes for them. I think all profits should be either given to the stockholders as dividends or plowed back into the company as wages , R & D, expansion, etc.
Just Saying..
Not a bad idea ~ then tax the literal sh*t out of the recipients on a sliding scale percentile. Also enact an iron clad law that all US corporate profits must be paid to the recipient through direct deposit to a federally insured and chartered United States bank and stock option grants must be reported to the IRS reflecting
their face value on the day they were conveyed. Additionally, US corporations that move their enterprise off shore will face an import levy of at least 35% of the projected retail price of goods and services. Don't think there will be much retaliation under this plan as the United States is still the marketplace of the world and no commercial enterprise can afford to abandon it. We can play hardball or we can wimp up and let everyone else play hardball with us.
Tea Party Hypocrisy? Some Lawmakers With Tea Party Ties Are on the Government Dole
While the majority of American farmers receive no government money at all, at least 23 current members of congress or their families have received government money for their farms -- combining for more than $12 million
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tea-party-hypocrisy-lawmakers-tea-party-ties-government/story?id=13259014
wheels460...
Cut ALL AGR substities. Hows that?
Next argument....
Just Saying...
did you ever wonder what these tea party folks talk about on the bus ride to DC? the conversations are probably priceless. someone should hide a recorder under one of the seats one day. (hopefully it records something other than a gas passing contest).......I think we'd end up with either plenty of material for comedy central or maybe a revival of the twilight zone.
It's nice to see so many shills doing the bidding of the wealthy. It probably pays well!
Which reminds me- Boehner, where are all the JOBS you promised?
The Tea Party is not looking for solutions, they want a fight.
The result of the last time Republicans made this empty gesture and bit of legislative theater.
"Shutting down the government should at least save money, right? Not necessarily. In fact, the 1995 shutdowns had serious economic ramifications. An OMB calculation in January 1996 estimated the cost of the 26 total days of shutdown at $1.4 billion in taxpayer money—although a good chunk of that came from back salaries paid to furloughed workers. But the National Park Service forwent more than $14 million per day in revenue, businesses and local governments near parks missed out on an estimated $295 million due to closures, and U.S. tourist industries and airlines lost “millions of dollars,” according to estimates by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service ."
Those shown in the picture didn't pay attention during the last shut down because the demographic in power looked a lot like them.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but it was the Republican leadership that threw the Tea Party under the Democratic bus. We elected these guys to make cuts and the best they could do was $36 billion. Now after screaming for a $100 billion the best they can do is come up with $61 billion.
It is really sad that the we have fight just to get $61 billion out of the budget. We should be fighting for a lot more. I guarantee the way the economy is stalling out now we will get it done in 2012.
oh my goodness, look how cloudy it was out there. i hope everybody brought scarves and sweaters. you brave, brave souls.
good to know a crowd of a couple hundred is all it takes to get obsessive coverage in the mainstream media.. as long as they support the RIGHT causes that is..
how the hell did they all manage to just take off from work mid-day on a Thursday? do they work? and how come I never hear the tea baggers talking about jobs? they seem very misguided to me.
Just goes to show that the nut balls were out in force today. The say a government shutdown wouldn't be there fault. As I see it they are the ones talking an yelling shut it down. As an independent I wouldn't vote for any of the tea party candidates. All they are for is big business. The people in the tea party that support these nut balls don't realize that. I am beginning to wonder if they are all brain dead from fox news. Bachmann is one of the biggest drones for big business I have seen in a long time beside the governor Walker.
They want to cut the budget and take money away from the poor while shifting the burden to the states, but all along saying we don't raise taxes. By shifting the burden on to the states, the poor and the middle class pick up the bill to make up the state budget short fall caused by the Government. Is that not a end around on taxes?Some states want to give businesses more tax loops. The Government want to give a tax break to the rich by saying they create jobs, and of course subsidies to the oil company's and other supported friends.Do they think that Americans are stupid and cant see through the slide of hand of these people.Open mindedness is to be able to see the other persons point of view and be rational. Its not about I want my way.The GOP say my way or else while trying to include me in there dialogue of this is what the people want.Quit screwing up America with stupid ways.
Their own constituents are getting the wrong message. See, Tea Baggers want to see the Government shut down.
"We don't have to close down the government. We're going to close down the parts of government that we can't stand!" --Dick Morris
Hmmmm.... So it's not really about the budget is it, Dick?
"We don't have to close down the government. We're going to close down the parts of government that we can't stand!" --Dick Morris
Hmmmm.... So it's not really about the budget is it, Dick?
Memo: To the Tea Party Protestors
From: Sane Americans Everywhere
RE: Government Shutdown
We just watched the video of a few hundred of you shouting that you want to see the government shut down if they don't meet your demands for draconian cuts in areas that will only affect people who actually need those services. We watched Reps. Bachmann, King, and Pence along with the esteemed Sen. Paul pander to your absurdist rants. Let's come to an agreement on how to keep the government going. Let's reinstate the tax rate to exactly what it was when we last had a budget surplus. Not $1.00 more! It would allow us to maintain spending only at the level we bring in income. I think those in this country making over $250K can afford 3% more tax. Please.....stop the stupid rants and start to advocate for something that would actually do some long term good.
Apparently the $61 billion cut off of the current budget is equal to $100 billion off of Obama's proposal last year. Any fool would know that we meant $100 billion off of the current budget. Man, do we have some Republican heads to replace in 2012.
The debt, my well intentioned friends, is simply unsustainable. Our percentage of GDP is too high to grow out of.
"top of the world, ma, top of the world!!!"
Any republican handsomer than Governor Sean Parnell or better looking than Sarah Palin - come to Alaska you will be our next governor.
Low turnout. The teapot is running out of steam. Looks like 200 over-fed and under-educated showed up at best. Maybe the sheeple are giving up their Glenn Beck for Lent.
I guess they are mostly fair-weather baggers!!
Hey Spanky, I don't know about the QE3, but I stayed at the QE2 in NY, pretty nice. I didn't think the QE3 was finished yet, it's still in Southampton, isn't it?
Teanazis "SHUT IT DOWN!!", just too hilarious!!! Not going to be too hard to figure out who caused it if it happens. Note to Teabaggers: if you want to blame the Dems, don't go around in a mob decrying it yourselves!!!
abcnews .com has an article about farm subsidies going to our members of congress. the majority recieving this goverment welfare are rebuplican and tea party members. the highest amount going to a tea party member from tennesee. sounds like socialism to me. oh and let's not forget michelle bachman gets a welfare check as well. have we finally found the infamous welfare queen driving a cadilliac?.
All the while they spent 550 Billion in a couple weeks in Libya for their Corporate Masters. Can’t find 40 Billion to save for US but they can waste Trillions whenever their Uber Rich Masters want to go and KILL somebody else’s KIDS! Now we can’t feed OUR Kids but……………
As usual I see through the smoke put out by both sides of this same Party and I admire the Tea Baggers for continuing to stand up to the Republo-Demo-Rat Party who have lied to them too.
No Workee, NO Payee just like US, so SHUT IT DOWN! Please. Chop chop hurry it up!
Go get "em" Guys & Gals but when they finally "Stick it To You" I hope you remember US! We The People demand REAL Change in Washington and our State Houses in 2012.
Maybe this latest frustration with their "Hero's" like Boner and Cantell will lead them to change the Republo's back into the REAL American Party of Lincoln............ but I doubt it, for what would the Koch Bro's say?
For Real Change..........
Vote Paul/Nader 2012 Investigate/Prosecute/Incarcerate these new "Robber Barons" just like we've done so MANY Times before!
Muw, MuW, MUW, muW, what in hell is a MUW? 550 billion, eh? in Libya, correct? You might wat to take another Oxy, and settle into a nice nap, maybe dream of little sweet Teanzis jumping over a fence, with marshmellow clouds... screw this, STFU, liar!!!
Oh cool my first computerized "Sock Puppet" has appeared for today! Look at the message folks does that look like an intelligent response from a REAL person or another nasty ole one liner parsed from a Computerized Sock Puppet?
Fire Cat do YOU know how much they have spent or committed to spend? Come on “Lamb Chops” bend over and pull it out of your “Crystal Ball” then tell US PLEASE how much to you think a 3rd WAR will cost US? First 2 WARS are at 3 Trillion a piece and that's just the money spent that they will admit to.
A Billion here a 500 Billion same thing it is a usual “LIES” so go play elsewhere "Wet Sock"..........
MUW: Just admit that you are wrong, and cut your losses. You mixed up millions and billions because they sound the same and you aren't very bright.