Look at the hate spewing FOX Huggers coming out of the wood work. You just have to mention unions, minorities, taxes or education. It gets them every time! Sorry, Steve I missed the lowering standards bit in the article. I "guess" you added that part trying to be funny.

I wasn't laughing there Devie............... As we watch the Obama Adiministration IE the Justice Department Lower the Standards to become a Fire Fighter. we can Easily Assume this is exaclty what they mean in this Article..

Let's not hold the parents accountable, that would be wrong, let's throw money at it and hope it sticks or worse yet it ends up in the teacher's union.

TEST OUR STUDENTS. Now your giving credence to educational cuts initiated by Republicans. I disagree with you Mr. President. Compared to European, Asia and African countries, yes, African countries, American students lag in knowledge. It's so awful and embarrassing. We might have more money to fund researches but these guys are knowledge banks. TEST OUR STUDENTS accordingly.

Why would conservatives want to improve education? We might end up with another minority president for heavens sake!!

After all, they need some one to clean house, wash the cars and mow the lawn.

So education has to do with some kind of racial BS in an election? Hmmm..interesting Patrick, ignorant response, but interesting.

Salt Grass

After all, they need some one to clean house, wash the cars and mow the lawn.

Salt Grass, sounds like you're up on the shenanagans going on in the Texas Legislature!

Yup, house cleaning, kid and lawn keeping undocumented workers are exempt from the rule of the new legislation!

Unbelievable.........

All you need to do is look at the resounding success of the LA unified school district. Oh my.

So many hispanics, so much ESL, such high drop out rates.

You all want to guess at the per student cost for that "success" rate?

Come, give it a try.

patrick of salt lake & sillygrass - without educated technicians how would US corporations develop and manufacture the products the american consumer wants? Oh I know, lets use the liberal plan of throwing $$$ at our youth to talk/text on cell phones, play games, disrupt our classes and then tell poor johnny, pedro, mary and selena that welfare will always be available.

Conservatives have a far greater desire to see a strong educational system while you obviously do not.

3wolves - actually patrick and saltgrass demonstrates the difference between ignorance and suipidity. One is curable, the other (unfortunately for them is) forever.

american: Conservatives have a far greater desire to see a strong educational system while you obviously do not.

The same conservatives that are cutting education, taking away teacher benefits, enlarging class sizes, campaigning against education and educational spending, seeking to defund the Department of Education? Those conservatives?

Really?!

american-2052576 does the typical conservative dance. He builds a straw man of what he would have liked me to say, and then attacks arguments I never made.

Patrick, Yes I live in Texas and the Bill is to punish business who hire illegals, but to exempt individuals who hire people to work around the house. So that if you hire someone to cut your grass and that person is illegal, then it is not a state crime.

Salt Grass. Yes it is so hypocritical, Does Perry own a cotton farm by chance?

All Right Patrick - rocking some hardcore racism.

That take balls bro.

Or maybe you have some legitimate reason for the cotton farm crack?

Do tell.

Patrick, I can not blame Perry. It is a state senator form the Tomball area.

True, you're complaining about education, yet you want to defund it. You say the Federal government should give education over to the states, but the states are the ones who are butchering education. They are doing an even worse job than the Federal government.

I have been employed as a teacher and I did receive a raise based on performance. So I don't buy your argument at all.

True American, it is technically true that the Dept. of Education didn't exist until 1979, but public education dates back to the 1800's when it was under state jurisdiction. In the early 1900's it was part of the Dept. of Health, Education & Welfare until 1979 when it was separated off into the Dept. of Education. When people make the statement there was no Dept. of Education until 1979, they are trying to make it sound like there was no public education until that time, and that is just not true.

Patrick, hardly a straw man argument, you asked the question and made the remark and I answered both directly. You had no argument, just a question and a remark. The fact that you didn't address my "strong education..." answer directly goes more to showing your "argument" as being the straw man.

feldon (post 1.12) - Where has spending ever increasing amounts of $$$ every year led us to improve our students rankings in the world for effective k-12 education?

I grew up in an educational system where class size was determined by how many desks would fit the class room (usually 30 -32) and yet my elder siblings were part of the education system that created the systems that sent men to the moon and back, created the fundamental electronics that gave us PC's, laptops, hand held calculators (I was one of the last engineering students required to operate a slide rule), smart phones, numerically controlled machines and the internet. You know the generation that made it possible for todays elimentary schools to have computer labs. now we have smaller class sizes and still our students are in an overall decline.

Let teachers benefits (as in wages and tenure) be based on merit. Let the pensions be based on private sector 401k's or IRA's. You know, the teacher contributes the max allowed by law for tax deferment and the states/school boards contribute a maximun matching amount.

If spending doesn't result in improved student learning why keep on throwing money at it. Fix what is wrong, don't bury your head and think $$$ is the solution.

Defund the federal dept of education, not all of it, just most of it. Why should the taxpayer be required to pay for duplication of services at the state and federal levels. Spend wisely, not foolishly.

The federal dept of education needs only to establish and set national goals and objectives for each state to meet on an equal level. Heck, the federal dept of education could even be used as a clearing house for directing unused corporate equipment to those schools requiring additional equipment. Think of how the US organ donor system works. Think smart, not dumb.

Obama was 50% right when he said during the 2011 state of the union that if the schools showed him a plan for spending he would show them the money. What he should have said was show us the results and we will show you the money.

Do you ever have ay least have short spells of reality?

I see you say "who's next?" Well, if you pay attention to, if I may presume, your fellow lefty bloggers on this site, you will see anti-semitism is STILL alive, well and flourishing here.

For example, when the Fogels were murdered in Isarael two weeks ago, one blog asserted that it was probably an inside job in order to "blame" Hamas and up the bombing ante. Many more insinuate Israel has it coming to them. Most refuse to understand that the palestinean creedo is wipe all Jews off the map (been tried before) and they are certainly trying. I'm sure if your neighbor hated you and was hurling rocks at you, you might try to protect yourself. However, if you were Jewish, you would be the instigator, and had placed your neighbor in an untenable position. So, forget it. You ain't getting anywhere. NEVER AGAIN!

On another note, stop the flow of illegal immigration and I would support educational "investment" in a heartbeat. However, that will not happen.

Additionally, as the husband of a teacher in NYC, I cannot begin to tell you the frustration in dealing with kids who are given a "pass" due to their etchnic background, and the continual lowering of standards, contrary to what you may think as much of that information is suppressed by unions and local politicians. To quote West Side Story : They're depraved on accounta they're deprived? I don't think so.

reality - thoughtful response

Your comment on being given "a pass" is so true for many and is really a disservice to those individuals.

Thanks, american. One of the the greatest disservices is to my my wife. Now, you can argue all you want about the teacher's union benefits and cushy 9 month work year (trust me, it annoys me too...LOL)...BUT...you spend a day in a classroom with fifth graders that can't read, have little understanding of basic english and abusive parents and you'll see that being a teacher isn't all that its cracked up to be. Then add other teachers that are phoning it in. She's trying like he!! to help thses kids, but "the system" keeping batting her back. That's a disservice.

And, remember, if you can read this...thank a teacher.

I thank them all the time. Without some of those elementary school teachers, I don't know what would have happend to me, cuz' I was one of those kids I mentioned, above.

Pat, why is it that the color of your skin or the DNA from your parents should determine your ability to get loans, how much of them and at what rates you have to pay them back so you can pursue higher education? And why should we only invest in our efforts for minority children? I think we are all equal and that we should all have a level playing field, yet I'm the one accused of being a racist. What's up with that?

The DREAM act is flawed. I understand that the kids who were brought here through no choice of their own are stuck in a bind and we can work on that, but the legislation as written is crap. I'm all good with if you want to serve in the military for a 2 or 4 year stint that we'd grant you citizenship. This shouldn't even be a question- if you're willing to put your arse on the line to keep mine safe, absolutely you have earned all the rights and privileges that go with being an American citizen. But 2 years of college with no requirement of a degree or post-education residency requirement seems a little weak to me. What sacrifice are you making by partying for 2 years to get your citizenship? Amnesty hasn't prevented the illegal immigration issue from becoming larger any other time it's been tried, I don't see it as a magical cure this time. If you want to talk real reform that makes it both easier to follow the rules and less attractive to break them, then we're on to something and I'll likely support it but what's on the table now does neither.

I'm angry that Obama is talking about Hispanic education rather than focusing on educating all our kids. Obama cannot ignore white and black kids just because he needs the Hispanic vote. How politically selfish can he be? We're talking about kids here, who should not be scarified for one person's political ambition.

Moreover, my understanding is that a large percentage of Hispanics in elementary and preschool are illegal immigrants or the offspring of illegal immigrants. So it seems that Obama has chosen to make illegal immigrants his number one priority once again, to the detriment of U.S. citizens of all races and ethnicities.

I am even angrier that we aren't focused on decreasing illegal immigration, and educating those who are here legally--such as the children of natural born citizens and the children of legal immigrants who go through the proper channels and are motivated to teach their kids English. That would be what a President who really cared about making our country competitive and our students competitive would do.

I don't see how educating huge numbers of illegal alien offspring is the U.S. taxpayer's responsibility. Illegal aliens do not contribute net tax; most receive far more in government benefits than they pay. The meager income and sales tax they pay does not come close to covering the K-12 education, healthcare, and food stamps they receive. Even more annoying, many illegal alien families make more money than citizen families because they commit tax evasion, and then turn around and collect welfare. Obama wants us to reward them even more for their tax evading ways?

Obama is already giving an unfair advantage to children of illegal aliens for college. On the financial aid form called the FAFSA, college-bound youth are instructed to ignore undocumented income to illegal alien parents (income on taxpayer I.D., falsified social security numbers, and foreign income). That certainly gives them an unfair advantage, and here in California, many illegal alien families have incomes above the threshold, yet don't pay tax, and get welfare on top of that. I guess Obama is willing to have the U.S. taxpayer pay plenty for his Hispanic vote. He needs 60-70% of the Hispanic vote, you know. I guess Obama feels he can count on 40% of the white vote, because of the softhearted, and 95% of the black vote merely out of loyalty.

We'll see if Obama is playing his cards right. Massive Hispanic-preferences on Pell grants (because those with illegal immigrant parents report no income) are not making me happy. I just don't know how others feel about it.

The unfairness of the Obama government is glaring. People who do not contribute to our society and well being is given red carpet treatment and generous terms of subsidies for them to go to school, shop and to live a good but illegal life in the States. Whilst the citizens are given the short end of the stick to hold. Favourtism by a govt does not last and the people will rise up to throw it out. Govt should be impartial as justice that appears to be impartial. The American people is hurting and the Obama govt does not have the solution. They made a mistake to put him in power. They alone have the power to take him out next election.Obama is taken up too much with an ancient , rigid ideology that has been tried in Russia and China and which has failed many times the world over. It seems that illegals are given preference over the citizens. Everything is upside down. Just like the Progressives.

reality — I can relate to teachers as well, I have two sisters who are teachers as well as a sister in law and two nieces trying to convert subbing to full time positions. Can't speak for my nieces but my sisters and in law all enjoyed teaching and some of the perks received from their first job to subbing after retirement at 65.

Never did get into any discussions with them on union represention but my oldest sister is still waiting for the city of Buffalo and the union to renegotiate their contracts, not that it concerns her greatly as she is retired and subs as it suits her, She does like her health care provisos though. $5 for a bottle of humalog insulin is a far cry from $115/ bottle.

Yup Bob, and St Reagan got his goverment 'subsidy' for life, including his Mrs....

....but that's OK........evil government!

The 'I got mine'........attitude!

"The 'I got mine'........attitude!"

Yes, that is the attitude of the parasitic public sector unions.

By your analogy........Does that include the parasitic St Reagan.....and every other member of Congress!

Well Bob, to whom do you owe your great education?

kate - can't speak for bob, but mine came from parents who weren't afraid of talking to my educators on how I could do better, teachers who were always glad to help if I asked, a school system not afraid to show fair discipline and zero tolerence for classroom disruption. They also encouraged goal setting whether for the trades or university.

It also included a system of "mastery of the fundamentals" in math, communications, PE and an early exposure to the arts and history at the early grade levels. I don't ever recall a class size of less than 30 except elective shop classes.

I have won fights, lost fights, seen social workers and dropped out of university, only to return and graduate with a BS in engr. I am sure I disapointed my parents at times but they were patient, but strict and loving. They treated me the same as my siblings, provided only room and board while at university, everything else was paid by part time work or student loans.

My education also included construction work, food service work, self employment and engineering work.

Am I better than others? Only with respect to my willingness to learn and respect others that showed respect for my successes and failures. Am I unusuall? No more than any other who has overcome difficulties in life.

Do I think that our present k-12 educational system is screwed up? Without a doubt and $$$ is the least of its problems.

OMG American, I trust you're suing your parents and former educators for child abuse! *sarcasm off*

See that's what's missing- discipline and expectations. Not corporal punishment, but a healthy dose of realizing that if I was a brat I was going to be punished by my teacher and again when I got home. That I was expected to work at school just like my parents worked at their jobs. That no one was going to make the test easier so I could pass it, I would have to study harder and pass it on my own. And I didn't always do well at those things and sometimes I felt bad about myself, but that just made me work harder the next time. It turns that's what actually prepared me for a life outside of academia. What a concept.

Suzy - different times and different standards, and no I have never beaten my kids, just made sure they were aware of the consequences and not backing down. I was the youngest and most rebellious.

American, the world needs more "mean" parents like you!

Yellowdog-Mark D: Here are some photos from today's Town Meeting - The President looks happy and relaxed. I agree with you - President Obama is a fine role model for them to look up to.

http://theobamadiary.com/2011/03/28/town-hall/

{Sorry for not getting your name correct-I wasn't allowed to fix it for some reason}.

No problem, the gremlins are out today. I couldn't fix mine either it had said two times :}

Regarding your other post I think CNN is having something on "Muslims the unwanted neighbor's next door" - April 2nd.

@Pat

Here are some photos from today's Town Meeting - The President looks happy and relaxed. I agree with you - President Obama is a fine role model for them to look up to.

Do you how creepy this post is? I think the President and his family are fine role models even if I disagree with his policies. But your hero worship is akin to the state media of North Korea.

The Republicans have a talking point for everything. If you talk about our substandard schools they blame the teacher's unions. Apparently, in urban schools, there are a bunch of low performing teachers whom the unions make difficult to get rid of.

My question is: who hired these people in the first place?

I have never worked in an organization where managers who couldn't hire competent people were kept on. I have never worked in an organization that considered the ability to fire people a key component of its success. I don't ever remember a teacher being fired when I was in school, and schools were performing better in those days.

These talking points: "firing teachers will fix our schools, unions are responsible for failing schools, unions are responsible for unfunded pensions" are just not factual.

Poor Amy. Never worked in the scary dreaded private sector, where employees are actually judged on results.

Where failure has consequences.

Too scary for Amy. Keep your public sector lifetime sinecure; we will pay for you, even if you fail.

Bob, I've worked in both the private and the public sector. There is not a lot to choose between them. If anything, from my experience, the private sector is far more closed minded, clubby and insecure than the public sector.

How about you, Bob?

Bob-1887910

I've worked in the private sector all my life.

Probably the most successful company I ever worked for was L.L.Bean. I remember when they had a company come in and survey how happy we were. Seems there is a correlation between happy workers and productivity. Bean had it down to a science. If they had negative feedback to give you, they prefaced it with three positive comments, so you would be open to changing.

What are the best managed work forces in this country? Do they rely on firing people to be effective? I seriously doubt it. I hear Google is run pretty well. Seems to me administrators should be treating teachers better, considering how hard the job is (yes, I interned in schools and I never want to work in them. The private sector is more rewarding)

Amy, I think we lack a happy medium. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of cases recently in my state where the unions have done a number of things that seem contrary to quality education- a teacher being reinstated by a union arbitrator after being fired for viewing porn on a school owned computer (short time on a Sunday but still, in school on a computer paid for by tax payers=DUMB! Don't want you teaching my kid if you can't recognize common sense in your own world), a teachers union forcing teacher layoffs instead of accepting nominal benefits contributions so everyone could keep their job, layoffs based on seniority rather than quality (First year educator of the year award recipient got a layoff notice a few weeks after the award because she had no seniority when cuts came down), to name a few examples. I don't think teachers are bad people by any means and I know they have a difficult job- really it's the union reps I have a bigger issue with here- they are sucking money out of the classrooms where it belongs. There is a problem when the union will protect the bad and doesn't reward excellence. Seniority and tenure make it very difficult to remove those who aren't effective in the classroom which really only hurts the kids in the end.

AmyB - there is no magic wand available that determines the worth of a teacher, an engineer, an entrepreneur or anyone else. Only time, the environment and the individuals innate abilities will mold the individual into one of being productive

Keeping counterproductive teachers on staff does not help our youth learn, unions are only responsible to the extent that they allow unproductive teachers to remain on staff because of tenure based on contracts negotiated. Unions and management both played a part in creating the unfunded pension plans by only having a us vs them attitude at the negotiating table.

Last week Charlie Rose had an interesting roundtable discussion with 6-7 city mayors from NYC, Minneapolis, Atlanta, Philadelphia, houston (?), san diego, etc. Quite an eye opener on big city operations and limited funds. One point consistantly made was the perspective of unions, taxpayers and government haveing to make the choices of services rendered vs cost. The concensus was that all parties failed to look down the road far enough to maintain a balance between services offered and the economics involved.

Alan, NJ,

The Dream act is only trying to address a small part of one problem dealing with immigration It is tightly curtailed so that future immigrants wouldn't meet the requirements.

The following is a list of specific requirements one would need in order to qualify for the current version of the DREAM Act.

• Must have entered the United States before the age of 16 (i.e. 15 and younger)
• Must have been present in the United States for at least five (5) consecutive years prior to enactment of the bill
• Must have graduated from a United States high school, or have obtained a GED, or have been accepted into an institution of higher education (i.e. college/university)
• Must be between the ages of 12 and 35 at the time of application
• Must have good moral character

To discourage further illegal immigration, immigration policy (carried out by the feds) must continue to crack down on big business who knowingly hire them. Heavy fines and jail terms may dissuade the private sector business owners from hiring. That being said, these children who will be placed on a pathway to citizenship can't just be ignored. I would say the same for their parents who are undocumented. We can't just close our eyes and hope the problem solves itself.

"It is tightly curtailed so that future immigrants wouldn't meet the requirements."

Who are you kidding?

They will all come over, for the free ride and handouts from the Democrats, who want to bribe them for votes.

Under the DREAM ACT, an estimated 1.03 million illegal immigrants will enroll in public institutions and receive a tuition subsidy from taxpayers of nearly $6,000 for each year of attendance for a total cost of $6.2 billion year – a figure that doesn't include other forms of financial assistance that may be provided.

It will put illegal's kids at an advantage over those dumb enough to actually obey the law.

The legislation needs to be funded at his baseline estimate of $6.2 billion each year -- a move that Democrats are avoiding because it would destroy support for the bill.

It's an unfunded mandate that would come at the expense of not just taxpayers but kids trying to get into these schools....

To discourage further illegal immigration, immigration policy (carried out by the feds) must continue to crack down on big business who knowingly hire them. Heavy fines and jail terms may dissuade the private sector business owners from hiring.

Don't disagree with you Dog but I don't see how the incentive for illegal immigrants is not left out there. Similar to the last amnesty there has been no crack-down like you mention and so you have to conclude the last amnesty failed. You don't put any arguments up as to why passing the DREAM act would be any different.

Bob – I took this exactly from the Fox news politics web story you pulled your numbers from…

The legislation needs to be funded at his baseline estimate of $6.2 billion each year -- a move that he says Democrats are avoiding because it would destroy support for the bill.

But critics of the group call the report "misleading" and say it lacks evidence supporting its predictions.

Wendy Sefsaf, a spokeswoman for the Immigration Policy Center, said CIS has "a very common formula," which factors the costs of anything without the benefits.

"If you're my roommate, there are costs associated with it," she told FoxNews.com, noting the cost of housing, food and utilities. But she added that the benefits of a roommate paying half the rent, half the utilities and half of the groceries each week should be included in any analysis.

"CIS's cynical mischaracterization of the DREAM Act is not only inaccurate, but hypocritical as well," she said in a statement. "CIS frequently laments that so many immigrants to the United States have low levels of education, yet opposes a measure that would allow some of these immigrants to become more educated."

Her group cited an estimate by the liberal Center for American Progress that it would cost $48.6 billion to deport more than 2 million illegal immigrants who were raised in the U.S.

Looking at this solely monetarily, Ms. Sefsaf is saying, let say those immigrants go to college and graduate, they will be able to contribute more to the economy in taxes due to higher wages. In addition they would have more disposable benefit than someone without an education that may be living pay check to pay check.

There are pros and cons to every issue, Bob.

Perhaps the right would like to explain why they feel passing the DREAM Act would be wrong. They've done the usual anti-immigration spewing, it would encourage more to come here, it's wrong, it's..... We read a lot about cracking down on illegals but just when have republicans done anything to fix the system. Perhaps the right will explain to us what republicans have done to solve the problem of illegals; the democrats would be happy to work with them in a bi-partisan fashion. The likely truth is simply that the right needs someone to demonize and right now, it's hispanics and illegals. These young people did not choose to come here, they were brought here when they were young; this is the only life they know.

Alan, NJ.

I think the Dream act could be a part of the solution.

That being said I would grant you that this stand alone bill will not solve the entire immigration problem. That is why I think that a number of comprehensive steps need to be taken including enforcement; as well as raising legal immigration quotas to allow more to enter legally.

If the immigrants realize that there are no more jobs they won't come. Employeers if cracked down on enough will feel it is not worth their while to employ them.

Still not answering your question though, right? Disincentives for the Dream Act. You got me thinking long and hard. Hmmm. I would agree that there are few things in the act to dissuade people from coming if it stood alone. Despite the fact that they wouldn't be allowed to participate people may come not knowing all the facts. That is why I believe that the whole immigration problem needs to be addressed and not piecemealed. These are hard, big problems with no easy solutions. As I said before there are pros and cons to every policy. Thanks for giving me something to think about, perhaps I will have more to say on this in the future.

@Dog

Very honest. My position is that we should go back to the Ellis Islands days and up the quotas for legal immigration, but there has to be zero-tolerance for illegal immigration. I really have an issue with illegal immigrants jumping the queue. Problem with this proposal is that in times of high unemployment like now its too easy to demagogue.

Hey Jody - can you remember all the way back to 1986? Remember what they told us about amnesty then?

It was, kinda, a big fat lie, right? But 2.5-3.5 million illegals were allowed to become citizens. THey lied then, and yet they want another go. Really, how dumb are we supposed to be?

But ok Jody - just answer me this - would this be the last Dream Act? Will there be no future attempts at a form of amnesty?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

And gosh darn it they already done fooled us once. 1986 just wasn't that long ago, right Jody?

Where you from Progressive? Would that be public speaking with a teleprompter or from the heart? There's a big difference between two with Obama.

Progessive, yours is the first post I've been able to vote up all day! How appropriate! I like your values.

Well said, Progressive Forward 11.

Values Amy!!!??? Calling people or groups names and you call that values? You don't have kids do you? Please, please say NO....

Progressive, Your President Obamba and his hee-haw voice is lying again. I can't take his braying. It hurt my ears. It's not large like his. He trampled on the Constitution but I guess that doesn't bother you. Better tell him goodbye next time you see him. He sure don't look like he'd get another term. A ruined economy, Obamba care, a failed stimulus, high taxes, joblessness , a war and CEO friend called Immelt who owns GE and whose profit of $14 billion profit and not a red cent on tax. Better tell him 'adios senor.'

I heard it on the Rush Vine.

Odd, there's plenty of money in the States to give tax breaks for big business and the wealthy but none for the education of children whether white, brown, or black. Seems the right has some strange priorities.

Jody - come on we all now know there is plenty of money to kill them dirty Libyans.

Or did O budget that?

Really Jody? Don't teachers get paid through property taxes in Iowa? How does tax breaks to "big business" and the wealthy effect your property taxes that pays for those teachers?

Trying to discuss basic taxation with the likes of Jody is just a total waste of time.

But again Jody answer this one basic question, if you can: who wrote those horrible, terrible tax laws? How about this one: which party chaired the Ways and Means committee for the last few years?

Jody?

And of course if you fail to respond we will have our answer, so go ahead take a shot.

The sarcasm just drips from those lines. Nice job of cutting right to the bone (or should I say left to the bone?) of most postings here.

Progressive+Forward11.....GWB instituted no child left behind, which was in many ways reasonable and fair for all children....The Majority DNC Congress failed to properly fund it when they had the power. I am not saying NCLB was perfect by any means but there are some very worthy initiatives that came from the legislation particularly when it comes to identifying children with LD's and early intervention before children have to fail into receiving help and support. The current administration steps in and claims they are going to do away with ineffective programs to streamline NCLB but all they have done is add money to bunk programs and spend $$$$$ to purchase canned feel good anti-bullying and social skill programs. These silly attempts to parent the populous cost district a whole lot of money to support friends of politicians who design these curriculum.

I can't speak for other states since I don't live there, but NJ spent an average of $14,000 per student in 2006. How much more money do you think we need to spend per student to make our schools better?

NO JO moved to Texas

Quick....somebody please sell Texas

PLEASE

Chris,Dorr, MI...

If they sold off Texas who would pay for the unemployed in Michigan?

Naw - I think Chris, Dorr has it just right.

Let's use Michigan as a model for all. Especially Detroit.

So Chris, you do agree Detroit is a total disaster, right? Not let's discuss why that is.

Is it because of the educational system? Wait how about this - isn't it like the most unionized city in the country? It sure seemed to be in the 60's and 70's. Yet now it is a vast wasteland.

Come on brother shine some wisdom upon us and tell us why Michigan is in the crapper. You all have had democrat leadership for some time, no?

Say, what is the unemployment reate in Michigan these days?

LOL, now that's funny txmom, sad but true.

Chris in NJ, until the union's pensions are back in the Black.

Glad to help you out Spanks! :o) Michigan's current financial situation was precipitated by the following, since you asked:

NAFTA, GATT, WTO and Most Favored Nations trade status for China were all signed by the greatest republican president of our age. The President that adhered to the following principals most cherished by the republican party: no regulation, "free" trade, small government, welfare reform, fiscal responsibility,....you know those principles seminal to republican tenet. These principles are (however inaccurately) attributed and owned by republican DNA. The VERY FLOWER OF REPUBLICANISM.

The president who most embodied, practiced and implimented these principles and accelerated them onto an unsuspecting America was none other than the greatest republican president of our time: WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON.

Made Reagan look like a twinkle-toes Liberal.

As a result of the republicanism Clinton instituted, the domestic auto industry hemorrhaged jobs. Between 1999 and 2010, Michigan lost 1/2 of its automotive-related jobs,.....an astonishing 600,000 tax revenue-generating jobs left the state. Almost literally overnight. The population of the entire state of Nevada is,...what 500,000? The state lost more jobs literally than some states HAVE people. Auto jobs cascaded out of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, etc... at a rate not seen since dustbowl days. With borders (and tariffs) erased by NAFTA, plants closed in Michigan and opened in Mexico. They subsequently closed in Mexico,...and promptly moved to China. They now sell more Buicks in China than they do in the U.S. The American Middle Class is alive and well,.....rampantly thriving in fact, ......it's merely been relocated to China.

David Stockman, a Reagan economist, once remarked, "When the country's economy gets a cold,...Michigan gets pneumonia." During the eighties the four largest market economies in the world were the U.S., Great Britain, France and General Motors, in that order. Detroit accounted for 1 out of 6 jobs in America. Stockman has since decried republican economic theory as a massive fraud. He is right along with Alan Greenspan there. They have both fallen from the faith. The snake oil.

Enter republicanism.

I knew since Y2K that this nation was in for a whale of a recession because Michigan is the canary in a coal mine for the rest of this nation's economy. As Michigan's economy goes, so goes the U.S.A. There is a mere formality of a 6 or 7 year lag time.

America's Middle Class was born here on a freeway overpass in Detroit. Therefore,...it should stand to reason that America's Middle Class will die here. Just as we are seeing.

There. That help ya' out?

So we are clear - it's all Clinton's fault, because he was really a bad republican?

So where were the unions while all this went on? See, according to the folks around here the unions protect and serve the middle class. So how'd all that bad stuff happen, on their watch, in there city?

And I'm just curious Greg - could any of it have anything to do with the crappy cars Detroit spewed out? I own several cars - only and Chevy pick up is american. I just cannot see buying another American car. Quality, style and reliability just ain't there.

So how was it Clinton or the repubs that caused Detroit to make such horrid cars? Might it been the fault of the car makers themselves?

Oh and did Clinton ruin the schools there? You all got a lot of problems, but unlike most states your's appear to be unique in a lot of ways.

Not at all unique. Dallas, Atlanta, Phoenix, Houston, St. Louis, Frisco, Denver......they all have their slums. I'd be happy to set you loose in the bad parts of any of thse towns. You'd be torn to hamburger in 8 minutes.

Union people do not determine what metal ends up in the showrooms. They only bolt the designs together in the assembly plant. The auto executives determine design. They determine quality. Auto execs determine engineering. Overwhelmingly republicans all.

In addition Unionized employment in the auto / private sector has dropped from 24% in 1980 to around 6.9% today. If Unionization is the cause of all Michigan's woes, as you propose, then shouldn't our economy be booming according to your corollary? Perhaps declining Unionism isn't the CAUSE of Michigan's decline, but is instead a SYMPTOM of it. Something is seriously flawed with your logic. Detroit's best times were enjoyed during times of rampant Unionism. Auto industry's highest profits!!

• Put simply:
  Smaller Unionism, smaller wages.
  Smaller wages, smaller disposable income.
  Less disposable income, less economic activity.
  Less economic activity, less tax base/income.

Google unemployment rates for the U.S. You can find them at www.BLS.gov. See which state had the LOWEST unemployment rate in 1998-1999? Right. Your Connie eyes don't deceive you. Michigan's unemployment rate was at 3.5% and some change when Bush took office and started to ignore the Labor Protecton clauses of NAFTA. Jobs gushed overseas.

Detroit has to contend with a lot of things that our competitors do not. Germany and Japan both have FAR HIGHER rates of Unionization than the U.S. auto industry, and they have socialized medicine and free college/university education, BUT their economies ARE BOOMING!!! Particularly Germany. They have an employment shortage.

Too bad 98 was so long ago. Gm and even Ford are at a huge disadvantage due to fixed costs, labor being chief among them. But hey, you all got the Volt, so there is that, or was that the idea/design of a republican exec.? THey have sold all of what, 200 so far?

Sorry but I just can't but into the unionisms. Again, if unions are so good, why so few unionized workers?

But I do agree about Germany. You are aware of the huge role their tax policy plays in that, right? You in favor of no corporate taxes on goods exported?

Seems like a good idea to me, but I suspect your brethren around here won't find them to be to their liking.

So Greg...As you seem to feel people would starve without Unions how in the world do you explain the success of "right to work" States? Those places in this country that if a person wishes to work they can do so without paying for the Union Card. Those States where federal labor laws and state laws protect worker rights. In companies where benefit competition drives the employment force for the best and brightest.

Union people do not determine what metal ends up in the showrooms. They only bolt the designs together in the assembly plant.

For this you and other pro-union folk think Companies owe you from cradle to grave. Isn't that slavery? I can bolt something together but is certainly doesn't mean I would send my kids driving around town in it. So how much are Union dues?

I see the propaganda machine is an effective tool in the Republican education arsenal.

Bob, I don't agree with your premise in the first place, but look: In the last 30 years, we have had 20 years of governance by a Republican president. So either Republican presidents "invested" in education and we got bad results, OR Republican presidents did NOT invest in education and we have bad results.

In fact, the reasons costs of educating pupils have risen have little to do with teacher unions and a lot to do with the American Disabilities Act and other laws ensuring that people with disabilities or other special needs (ESL for example) are included in education. Another issue is our insistence on LOCAL control (a favorite GOP talking point). If we consolidated more school districts in metropolitan areas (small, adjoining suburbs, for example) and had one superintendant for several high schools instead of one superintendant per high school, we could reduce costs in other ways (economies of scale). But people are very insistent on LOCAL school board control of the curriculum, the hires, the programs offered.... and if some school districts are willing to pay $14,000 per pupil, and others only $6,000, the average still comes out much higher.

No problems? You see not one problem with increasing funding?

I mean sure if we we not blowing through $100 million per day in Libya, but we are.

And Obama seems to be totally willing to keep "investing" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Too bad really, because One problem I see is that we already are in the red on $.40 of every dollar spent.

Or is that not problematic for you Greg?

It is problematic to me Spanks. I agree with PAYGO, the policy that repubs shot down. I think that the USA Dept of Defense should cut its budget 80%. I think all bases should be closed around the world. I think Iraq, and Afghanistan should be ended, and the troops recalled to American soil. Tomorrow morning. I think the 38,000 troops in S. Korea should be recalled,...also tomorrow.

I think all aid to Israel should be eliminated. Okinawa,....closed,...now.

I think subsideies to oil companies should be eliminated and channeled to energy independance. Anything that gets us off oil as fast as humanly possible. Put all of the recently-furloughed troops on it.

Socialized medicine should be implimented, and University education should be free, to every American. I think the H1B Visa program should be eliminated, rescinded and never revisited. Subsidies should end for the pharmaceutical industry as well.

The lips of the military-industrial complex should be ripped from America's teat,....at last. We subsidize that industry with a $717 billion subsidy every year, but you hear no outcry of "Bailout"!

U.S. taxes should be used for the betterment of the U.S. people. Some humanitarian aid,..OK,....no open commitments.

How's that for starters Spanks?

Paygo passed, correct. Pelosi just thereafter ignored it, right?

But as for the rest - i generally agree. Problem is Obama does not.

And don't forget a whole lot of the military budget goes to wages and benefits for the troops.

I think we ought to move Israel to northern Nevada - a waste land then let the entire region implode - right after we start drilling for all that oil we got here.

Or just let Israel take them all out, cause I think that's what they want to do.

Makes me wonder - what kinds of vehicles do all the libbies around here drive?

I assume it has to be cars built by the UAW in Detroit. Well, I guess except for them Pruis'.

What do you think Greg - you think they drive Detroit's finest? Would you consider it somewhat hypocritical is they did not?

Oh, in addition to my Chevy, my motor home is also 100% American made. Chevy chassis, Fleetwood body.

Oh and if that's where the middle class lives and is reflective of it's condition then you better make damn sure you are not middle class. That would suck.

Obama is a Progressive. He does not care about people. His ambition is to bring the country under socialist progressive rule. He would use the various groups to achieve his ends. The Hispanic population is the largest. so he is trying to make them recognize him so he will return to power. His thinking is that he has the Black vote in his pocket. With the Hispanic , he can perform wonders. But sometimes the gods intervene.

jgarz....So you write words and yet have no point. Which "jackass" would you like to have shut-up and by what means? What point or points do you take exception to, specifically?

I would believe you to be progressive or unfamiliar with social US pleasantries so therefore you really should include the PC terminology as part of your general doctrine. You might consider replacing the crass word "dick" with the socially acceptable word "penis". But then maybe you are from a first gen illegal immigrant family who typically require their children to drop out of school by age 16 and get a job to support the family thereby tossing that public trust of a free and fair public education by the American people.