Are you an absolute imbecile, or an outright liar?

Who has ever said they want to go back to child labor, locked exits .......

Flogging the endless class warfare schtick.....lame.

The "robber barons"...Who are these 'robber barons"?

Actually, that terminology fits perfectly as a description of highly-paid thuggish public sector union executives.

... back to the era of child labor, locked exits, dangerous working conditions, long hours for little pay. They say it is for the good of the people when in reality it is good for the robber barons. Any person who is not looking at the "favors" being handed to big business and the wealthy as the future demise of the middle class are simply blinded by ideology.

What part of the public sector is employing children? What part of the initiatives being pushed have associated dangerous working conditions attached? What part of the initiatives is mandating extended work hours or low pay? Your comment is ludicrous! What the initiatives do allow is for the local Governments to get rid of inept and often unjustified protection of employees that have been bringing nothing to their jobs as well as moving to less expensive, but still effective support programs rather than the mandated Union owned health programs in favor of less expensive public sector health programs. etc etc etc. The left loves to deal with citing the extremes of the past as what the Republicans are pushing when it is allow Local Governmentns to do what they need to do to bring thier budgets back into the black. If any public sector workers cannot cut it or nt to leave, there are plenty of jobs around the country that they can apply for. This is a red herring comment..

I don't blame the public workers... They are doing their jobs in amazing ways expect for those workers that should no longer be protected from assessment and removal. I blame the unions and their greed! When ya try and defang a snake that can kill you, the snake gets angry, takes an aggressive stance and tries to recoil back at the one trying to defang it! So goes the unions... but they are still the snake that bring little to the public sector's benefit! They are only protecting their union (not the worker's ) turf!

bob-1805084

Are you an absolute imbecile, or an outright liar?

Who has ever said they want to go back to child labor, locked exits .......

Grow up! you're not as dumb as you pretend. If the Koch brothers, the owner of the mine in Virgina, BP and Dick Cheney's Haliburton can kill people what makes you think it won't happen?

FYI:

Maine GOP Gov. Paul LePage Stole Candy From Children, Wants To Undo Child Labor Laws

But now that LePage is governor, he’s still targeting children. A bill sponsored by state Sen. Debra Plowman (R) and “backed by” LePage would roll back the state’s child labor laws, with the pretext of giving kids more liberty to work. “We have no other restrictions on any other things they do,” Plowman explained. “They can watch TV 32 hours-a-week

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/17/paul-lepage-child-labor/

UNIONS are not thugs. They died you could not be killed due to unsafe working, have a decent wage, and not you or your child working forced long hours. A seat at the table discusses those crucial issues. Are you that desperate to work for peanuts on a forever basis or search the garbage cans forever because you're a right winger with scruples? Those are not values. It's inhumane.

What have these "Robber Barons" done for you lately? You better get hip cause it's coming to your state sooner than latter; if you let it.

Gosh Jody, it's only Monday morning and already you got to start with child labor?

That's what you got?

Never mind the states are flat broke and let's pretend that there are no laws against all of really horrible things you cite to.

Ok Jody, how about you give it another go. THis time cool it witht he hysteria, and try to include some actual insight. Tell us why, without resort to child labor or nazis, the republicans are wrong, and what you think they, or the dems should do to get us all out of this reall bad situation.

Jody, I like you to consider California. We are DOOMED. The top 1% pay such a large part of the tax burden we are SOL. Do you have any thoughts on the basic inequity of that situation? Are you at all surprised that Brown is doing nothing to solve our debt issues? It really is a lot like Obama's approach, right?

So Jody, how about we try something different this week? Less conclusionary statements, more substance. Less hysteria, more reason.

In other words, less Feisty, more Anna Molly. You can do this, I know you can.

And to all this "Take our Country Back" rhetoric. Some of the poster here think we can go back to the Middle Class utopia of the 50's when there was no global competition. Tell me Jody what is your model to arrest the decline of the middle class in the face of new competition? You want to bring back textiles, steelworks, shipbuilding? How do you suggest we "Lean Forward"? Green technology? Got news for you. For all the people it employees it destroys more jobs in other industries and costs more.

It isn't just Maine, either. Child labor laws are also under attack in Missouri;

If state Sen. Jane Cunningham has her way, the under-14 crowd will no longer have to worry about those stuffy labor laws saying they can’t hold a job. Teenagers of all ages will be freed from restrictions limiting how many hours they can flip burgers. And if they want to staff the drive-through window all night long, Cunningham is for that too. To heck with those early morning classes.

To see Cunningham’s motives, check out the latest information.

The Missouri legislature can always be counted on to come up with bizarre legislation, but Senate Bill 222 is the strangest we’ve see in awhile.

Cunningham, a Republican from St. Louis County, would also repeal the requirement that 14- and-15-year-olds apply for a special permit in order to work. And the state Division of Labor Standards would no longer inspect workplaces tht employ children or require them to keep special records for their youthful employees.

Cunningham is totally pro-business, but this is over the top. Under her proposed legislation, a 12- or-13-year-old could be sent to work full time in Missouri, perhaps under the guise of receiving a home-school education, of which Cunningham is a big supporter.

Read more: http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/missouri-senator-wants-repeal-child-labor-laws/#ixzz1HuTXXRmA

Again with the phony outrage that we're picking on poor old Conservatives. They're only doing what's best for the nation, after all.

<sarcasm>

But I know of no cases of 12 year-old been caught working. Why do we need these laws? This is the same as the voter ID law. If it nobody is being prosecuted then we don't need a law.

</sarcasm>

Bob, here's a link on changing child labor laws.http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/14/lee-child-labor/#

Here's another.http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=406876

Yet one more.http://www.mainepolitics.net/content/849/child-labor-laws-governors-rollback-agenda

Shall I continue? Thanks for playing. Pick up one of our lovely parting gifts on your way out!!

Jody,

So true. Big corporations in the United States do use unfair child labor. For these corporations they ship the jobs over seas and they do not control the low paying and labor standards being used. They turn a blind eye to the fact that child labor is being exploited. Some call them sweat shops.

Jody:

Stop exaggerating and being a Drama Queen. No one is going to go back to those things and you know it. You sound like a politician.

BTW: All of you can sieze with the ThinkProgress links as sources. That is ALL OPINION. It is just another blog full of OPINIONS.

But gosh Job1 I already pay too much for my Nikes and I-pads.

But I wonder - would you agree the use of child labor is a humanitarian crises? Maybe we should send in the troops?

BTW: You all can cease with the Thinkprogress links as sources. That is all OPINION. It is just another blog full of OPINIONS.

I see some folks here assume that workplaces will now always be safe, pay will always be fair, and child will never again return to the business world even though only force of law has kept the status quo in the past. In light of history, why would we believe that? Businesses will do these things if they can, and if they see potential for increasing profits by doing so. That is the nature of the unregulated free market.

The key to our traditional American strength is an unwillingness to let the worst abuses of the free market go unregulated. It's a balance that preserves the economic strength of Capitalism by allowing Capitalists to do pretty much as they will...but only within limits. Those limits are their to protect the middle class. Today's war on the middle class only proves the necessity of that regulation. Our deregulatory experiment was a failure. It's time to admit that and return to the fair, reasonably regulated Capitalism that is the American tradition.

People who think we can trust "private sector businesses" to do the right thing are nuts, if unregulated they would have your 90 year old grandmother chained to the same work table as your 7 year old daughter working 18 hours a day for a piece of bread and cup of water. But people like Bob and Spanky think that's OK long as they turn a profit, piss on everyone else. Pathetic

The Republicans' talking point on unions is that they have served their purpose, and are no longer necessary. However, in Maine, we have a Republican legislator who is trying to exempt DeCosta Egg Farm from paying overtime to workers. Sounds like something out of the 1930's. What is up with the Republican Party targeting the middle (and working) class, trying to squeeze the last penny out of them?

http://portlanddailysun.me/node/23955/

Wait a second, are we talking about private or public sector unions? As far as I can tell, this law would only affect public sector (read: government) employees. How many teenagers does the state employ in Ohio anyway?

"Chris, Cranbury, NJ.

Wait a second, are we talking about private or public sector unions? As far as I can tell, this law would only affect public sector (read: government) employees. How many teenagers does the state employ in Ohio anyway?"

====================================================================

Currently the State of Ohio is not allowed to enjoy the benefits of child labor, the point being Chris some people would like to keep it that way.

While "the time for having unions is long over" the one thing the fine Governor's of Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana and elsewhere have proven is that laws can be changed. Even laws designed to protect workers from unsafe conditions can be eliminated.

Mr. Cantor would also eliminate the EPA. After all, we don't need a government agency to actually enforce laws making sure we can breath or drink water. How quickly would some eliminate the US Dept. of Labor or OSHA and the laws they enforce, if they could. There is no doubt many of these laws "cost jobs." Requiring employers to pay overtime after 40 hours, a minimum wage, workers compensation insurance, safe working conditions all do cost money. Eliminating those COULD allow employers to hire more workers.

The Constitution also eliminates slavery. Prior to the passage of the 13th, 14th, 15th Amendments, their was indentured servitude. Many early immigrants "earned" their passage to the US in this fashion. Elimination did not destroy the country.

Those who favor the dismantling of the union movement and "taking back America" do not realize what they are truly taking it back to.

The Koch masterplan is to first take out the Public sector unions crippling the democratic party. Then they can start working on taking out the private sector unions saying things like "they have served their purpose, and are no longer necessary." Once they have gotten rid of unions and the democratic party their evil plan for world domination can continue

Step right up and watch the amazing presto-change-o, double-reverse-o, as the two political parties continue to misread their "mandate", overreach with deluded, narcissistic arrogance and self-destruct every two years.

OK, wbush, you obviously don't understand what I'm saying.

This law will only affect public unions, not private unions. When has the state of Ohio ever used child labor? Have they ever used child labor? Why would Jody or anyone else think that things would go back to the way that they were in the late 1800s and early 1900s if these laws only affect public unions and not private ones? I haven't seen any laws proposed that address any of the things that Jody is talking about in her post. The things that Jody is speaking of would have no revelance to public employees.

Has our government, on any level, ever used child labor, locked the doors, and forced its employees to work long hours under dangerous conditions?

The 'bottom line' is that workers in public employee unions have enjoyed wages higher than the taxpayers that pay them, MUCH higher pensions, and MUCH more protections against layoff, so it's understandable that they want to hang on to those great benefits, but the reality is that adjustments need to be made to bring their wages and benefits more in line with the private sector.

Despite the 'doom and gloom' rhetoric by the unions, this will not be the 'end of the World' for them, and they will still have all of the legal protections that private sector workers enjoy today.

Silly claims about 'child labor' or 'slave labor' are just ridiculous, and they know it.

That's a great story Roy, but it really isn't that way;

The research in this paper investigates whether state and local public employees are overpaid at the expense of taxpayers.

This research is timely. Thirty-seven states are struggling with substantial budget deficits. Several governors have

identified excessive public employee compensation as a major cause of their states’ fiscal duress. The remedies they

propose include public employee pay freezes, benefits reductions, privatization, major revisions to the rules of collective

bargaining, and constitutional amendments to limit pay increases, each as a necessary antidote to the supposed public

employee overpayment malady.

The data analysis in this paper, however, indicate that

public employees, both state and local government, are

not overpaid. Comparisons controlling for education,

experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race,

ethnicity and disability, reveal no significant overpayment

but a slight undercompensation of public employees

when compared to private employee compensation costs

on a per hour basis. On average, full-time state and

local employees are undercompensated by 3.7%, in comparison

to otherwise similar private-sector workers. The

public employee compensation penalty is smaller for

local government employees (1.8%) than state government

workers (7.6%).

http://epi.3cdn.net/8808ae41b085032c0b_8um6bh5ty.pdf

John: don't confuse the Teapublican sheeple with Facts. They want to know that the health care law costs jobs and has death panels. The want to believe that anchor babies are a major problem in this country. The want to believe that if they give tax breaks to the wealthy, they will create jobs. And they want to believe that state budget deficits are not created by cutting taxes to the wealthy, but because union employees earn too much.

You just can't convince stupid sheeple once they hear the lies the from the Teapublican party.

The hard work of individuals built the middle class. Not unions.

Feisty, if all people had your helpless attitude of dependence on Almighty Government, and reliance on unions, there would be no middle class, we would all be welfare recipients.

If only we lived in a nation where individuals were free to negotiate the best possible deal with their employers, like America of olden times;

At 4:45 pm the bell rang signaling that the workday was done. The girls in the light brown and terra cotta Asch building, on the corner of Greene Street and Washington Place in lower Manhattan, had put in some overtime. The clothiers on the lower floors had closed shop at noon this Saturday but the girls, mostly Italian, Yiddish and German, on the 8th, 9th and 10th floors could use the extra money over the $6 a week they normally made. They assembled women's tailored shirts which were copied from the men's styles. The girls worked for Isaac Harris and Max Blanck. The name of the business was the Triangle Shirtwaist Company. The date was March 25, 1911.

As the girls were gathering their belongings and putting on their coats someone yelled "Fire!"

Down below on the street, people started to notice the smoke billowing from the 8th floor. One of the bystanders observed a bolt of cloth come flying out the window and hit the pavement. Instinctively, he remarked that Harris was trying to save his best material. As the people on the street moved closer, out flew another bolt. It was then that the realization hit them that it wasn't bolts of cloth at all but bodies plummeting to the pavement below.

By the time Engine Company 72 arrived from 12th Street (only 6 blocks away) they had trouble maneuvering their hose wagon into position since they didn't want to grind the already six limp forms lying in the street. The bodies were still falling. The distraught fire fighters pulled out a life net and attempted to catch one girl but three more hurled themselves immediately after the first and all four bounced out hitting the concrete. A policeman and fireman held a horse blanket and tried to catch the next hurling body. The blanket split in two and the body hit the pavement -- dead.

Back inside, on the 8th floor, feeding on cotton fabric and then climbing to the hanging overhead garments, the fire took little time to race out of control. The foreman and male tailors tried desperately to douse the licking flames with the 27 water buckets that were available. The efforts proved to be futile and the 275 girls panicked in desperation and headed for the two passenger elevators and the stairway at the west end of the loft. The crush of women at the door leading to the stairway slammed it closed. The doors in this building opened in rather than out.

Joe Zitto and Joe Gaspar, the elevator operators, brought elevators to the 8th floor and the girls fought frantically to get on. Each car only held 10. These two cars, making approximately 15 to 20 trips each, brought about 12 to 15 havoc-stricken passengers down to street level -- their clothing still smoldering. Finally, the girls upstairs were able to open the stairway door and raced down the stairs to street level -- most of them with their garments almost completely burned from their bodies.

Hundreds were still trapped upstairs. Three male cutters formed a human chain from the Shirtwaist's 8th floor window to the adjacent window next door. Some girls were able to cross over on the backs of the three. But then the men lost their balance and all three souls fell 80 feet to join the already growing number on the pavement.

Meanwhile, Engine Company 33 had arrived from Great Jones Street. To add to the horror, the stream of water from their hoses would only reach as far as the 7th floor! The aerial ladders only reached between the 6th and 7th floors. Girls were now jumping, trying to grab the top of the ladder. All missed -- diving to their deaths. Some of the girls were jumping now five at a time with fire streaking from their hair as they hurled themselves into eternity. They hit the glass sidewalk vault lights and crashed through to the basement, water pouring on top of them. Now there were literally thousands of spectators behind the police lines unable to believe what they were witnessing.

At another window, a man and a woman kissed and hurled themselves into the air. One girl jumped holding a fire bucket. Another one tossed her purse, her hat and then herself.

Interns, arriving in horse drawn ambulances from St. Vincent's, Bellevue and New York hospitals were only able to tag the broken bodies and cover them with tarpaulins. The 10th floor, which was where the showroom and the pressing of the shirtwaists took place, first received the message of a fire over the teleautograph which relayed messages between floors. At first, they thought it to be a prank -- but they soon smelled the smoke. Realizing that they could not go down, they climbed onto the roof. Some members and students from New York University Law School lowered a ladder to the horror-stricken girls. (The Triangle Building was about 12 feet lower than its adjacent structure.) Almost 150 reached safety this way.

A considerable portion of those who jumped came from the 9th floor. The reaching tongues of the flames from the floor beneath grabbed the windowsills and entered the 9th floor to start consuming the materials that were stacked high. The women raced to the east end stairway but by now it was an inferno. They stampeded back to the west side passenger elevators and stairway. The door was locked. Some tried the building's only fire escape but the courtyard was as hot as a blast furnace. They started screaming for Zitto to come up. After an eternity, he did, but could only take a handful. He would later testify that, as he was going back down the elevator shaft, he heard bodies hitting the top of the car -- blood was dripping on him and coins bouncing through the shaft. Later, police would pull over 25 charred bodies from atop the elevator.

Firemen would later say that they found 19 bodies melted against the locked door. 25 were found huddled in death in the cloakroom trying to escape the flames, some with their hands covering their faces in death.

The firemen now rushed up the stairs with their hoses to extinguish the flames. The steel and concrete structure was undamaged -- for the Triangle Building was fireproof; but not death proof

http://www.historybuff.com/library/refshirtwaist.html

Yeah, those were the good old days, when the Free Market was unregulated and Robber Barons took care of business as it should be.

Bob-1887910

The hard work of individuals built the middle class. Not unions

You're talking out of you @aa yet AGAIN. The middle class belonged to the union

Feisty, if all people had your helpless attitude of dependence on Almighty Government, and reliance on unions, there would be no middle class, we would all be welfare recipients.

Yet another ignorant condescending assertion. Please stop acting like a Koch sucker. What do think of corporate welfare where you worked you @aa off and paid more taxes than the robber barons?

2/3rds of US Corporations Pay Zero Federal Taxes: US Uncut Movement Builds to Make Them Pay Up

http://www.alternet.org/economy/150387/2_3rds_of_us_corporations_pay_zero_federal_taxes%3A_us_uncut_movement_builds_to_make_them_pay_up/

Bank of America

GE (even Spanky knows it)

Exxon Mobile paid no taxes in 2009

Wal-Mart is using a tax loophole involving "real-estate investment trusts" to call "rent" it pays to itself a tax-deductible business expense,

And the list can get even larger if you just read.

Bev - who writes the tax code?

And do you agree GE is absolutely horrible and un-american and just bad because it doesn't pay taxes?

So why is Immelt Obama's boy?

Seems a might inconsistent, no?

I don't suppose you have corresponded with the chairman of the Ways and Means committee? I'll give you a hint, that committee is not headed by either of the Kock brothers. Can you believe it?

John B, Des Moines, IA

If only we lived in a nation where individuals were free to negotiate the best possible deal with their employers, like America of olden times;

John thanks for the story. Now if only that same ole crowd who don't believe in history could use it and see the unsafe conditions kill people before these comes to their state.

This actually happened yesterday 50 years ago. Any doubters?

Bob, You don't what the hell you are talking about. I suggest that you read a U.S History book. There is a great one called. " The American Past."

Job1 did you not negotiate your salary and benefits with your employer?

If not why not? Seriously who takes a job they don't negotiate for?

Some things are up for negotiation, some things should never be. My employer isn't allowed to lock the doors to keep people from getting out. He isn't allowed to employ children. He isn't allowed to subject me to a toxic environment that compromises my health. A reasonable level of safety equipment is required in any circumstance that might constitute danger. While this is a nonunion workplace, should conditions deteriorate sufficiently employees have a right to unionize. Even that threat is a moderating influence, forcing the employer to keep wages and benefits "reasonable."

All this is at stake in the Conservative war against the middle class.

Excellent posts John. Seems to have been wasted on the deaf ears of the GOTP posters though. Nice work. Yes, that is one of the reason that we have Unions, OSHA and government regulations. Because without them businesses would still be operating in that fashion.

John B... EVERYTHING you just mentioned (locked doors, toxic unsafe environments, child labor... those things are already outlawed by local, state and federal laws.

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING UNIONS TO 'PROTECT' US!

You got a problem call the NLRB, call OSHA, call any one of a number of government organizations that are designed to address what you think the union will do for you.

There is obviously a duplication of effort here. Either we dont need unions or we dont need these government agencies... WHICH IS IT?

Got a problem with your employer? Your work environment is unsafe? Exposed to a toxic environment?

Call the NLRB or OSHA or the EPA.

There seems to be a duplication of effort here. Either we dont need unions to protect us OR we dont need these government agencies to. WHICH IS IT?

Auntie,

I didn't care to open to lift the lid on the thinkprogress broken/un-flushed crapper, but I did look quickly in your in other little trash cans ........

extending the hours a 17 year old can work from 10 PM till 11 PM?

Yea, let me go wet myself over that one.

I saw a piece recently that showed 36 agencies that cover labor laws. If the unions have done such a great job, why do we need all these other agencies?????? I keep reading changes in collective bargaining will destroy the middle class. IMHO, unions have already done that. We pay exorbitantly high prices for goods because we have to cover their pay, bennies and the goodies for the fat cats at top and, of course, to support the Democrat party.

Some of you would really, really benefit from actually reading the laws that are in place. Oh and take a quick look at the Osha and EEOC regs.

Sorry fellas - it isn't the union bosses protecting you.

Seriously - got read the laws, I think you will be astounded. And really what's the downside - you might actually learn something.

Now why is it I doubt you will? devie, John, Job, come on go take a look.

Bob

"Yea, let me go wet myself over that one."

Be my guest. It's the only warm feeling you're gonna get here! Have you ever fathered anything other than the drivel that you post here? If you did, you'd know that kids need more sleep and more study time than they're getting.

@Spanky: But that great humanitarian, Mr. Cantor, is not in favor reducing the budgets of the agencies that enforce those laws (or eliminating them.)

Laws can be changed or removed, as Mr. Walker has pointed out. Would any employer pay minimum wage if they did not have to ? What about overtime ? Workers compensation ? Unemployment benefits (meant to ease the transition to a new job when terminated without cause.) Do you like to breath, or drink water ? All of those laws (and many others) are the subject of extreme anti-goverment forces. Be carefull what you wish for when asking for small goverment. You just may get it.

If the various laws did not exist, union stregnth would be greater. If the unions are able to be effictively eliminated, will the laws enacted to codify what many employers negotiated with the unions be the next things to go ?

Our children may not work in sweatshops, but could our grand children be forced into that situation ?

So that's be a big fat no on the whole going and actually reading the laws, eh Duh01?

Too bad, I really think it'd be eye opening.

Uh, Spanky, my whole point was that yes, the laws CURRENTLY, exist, but that can change. The gradual erosion of the rights of unions, from Reagan with Patco to Walker with the public sector employees is a dangerous path. Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.

So true, Duh101. People are so often distracted by the shiny objects they don't see their pockets are being picked.

And companies like GE, which is making billions in the US, pays no US taxes, in fact, they get billions in tax benefits. But this is not about giving money to the wealthy corporations, its about taking it from the overpaid public employee union workers.

The Teapublican sheeple just don't get it. They really believe that the Republican party is there to support them. If any one of them could point to a law that has been proposed by the the current leadership at the Federal or state level that actually helps the average American, I would gladly support the party.

Unfortunately, from what I can see, the things being proposed are intended to remove existing rights and knowledge (defund: NPR, Planned Parenhood, attempt to reverse the healhcare law.) I wonder if the senior citizens would have had to pay back the $250.00 they received as part of the health care law if the repeal had passed. Of course, the Teapublican party currently in the house is more interested in empty gestures than in actually governing. Pity, they could have actually tried to do some good.

I guess those pesky voters have left them little choice but to pursue their authoritarian goals by whatever measures become necessary. People are catching on.

Yeah - catching on. That's it.

Just like the anarchists in England that protested the government's reduction in welfare payments.

Now just think about that one. The Anarchists, protesting for MORE government payments.

So you libbies like the ghost of Christmas future?

Come on, it's funny, right?

But hey, Pat and John, what do you guys think of the statements coming from of the governor in New York thses days? He kinda seems conservative. Now what do you suppose is motivating a hardcore dem to talk like that?

Like I've said - math is hard. In fact, John the debt is itself somewhat authoritarian, right? And debt service is down right punative. Just ask them English anarchists.

Got news for you Spanky, modern arnarchists are more a Libertarian flavor...including the Koch Brothers.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yxNgXs3TkJYC&pg=PT481&lpg=PT481&dq=koch+anarchist&source=bl&ots=8RRp6XTz_X&sig=mqi9WuFFPAsMCqzcCodOMEvgqV0&hl=en&ei=lraQTf7KO4eZ0QHg1cm_Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=koch%20anarchist&f=false

You are right about Bev.'s beloved Kochs - they are libertarians.

That's why they have donated so much, over such a long period to democrats and democratic causes.

But John what's up with the Gov. of NY? He sure seems to be tacking right on budget and debt. What is your explanation on that?

That's why they have donated so much, over such a long period to democrats and democratic causes.

Aw Spanky, I thought you were better than that. Please identify any of these Koch-favored causes that you define as Liberal;

The John Birch Society

The Cato Institute

The Heritage Foundation

The Tea Parties

Americans for Prosperity

Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker

The effort to suspend Californias Global Warming initiative

The ClimateGate echo nontroversy

Foundation for Research on Economics and Environment

The Tax Foundation

Senator Lisa Murkowski

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Koch_Industries

I don't see a lot of Liberals here http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/03/21/koch-money/ on a list of their 2010 campaign contributors, either.

John - you didn't find that on the liberal website? That's a shock.

Now I bet you have access to Google, and there was that NY times article about a month ago.

Oh, and why did you [or the sunlightfoundation] limit it to 2010? Why don't you look back over the whole body of work? At least back 10 years.

Lotsa buyer's remorse out there - from everyone other than the Koch suckers!

OK Spanky, I'll go back beyond 2010. The Koch family were involved in founding of;

The John Birch Society

The Cato Institute

The Heritage Foundation

Americans for Prosperity

...and a variety of other groups, all Conservative. As far as Tea Party connections are concerned, there was a web site up THE SAME DAY Rick Santelli made his famous Tea Party rant, registered MONTHS before and run by someone with Koch connections. http://exiledonline.com/exposing-the-familiar-rightwing-pr-machine-is-cnbcs-rick-santelli-sucking-koch/ They don't hide their sponsorship of the Tea Parties very well;

At the lectern in Austin, however, Venable—a longtime political operative who draws a salary from Americans for Prosperity, and who has worked for Koch-funded political groups since 1994—spoke less warily. “We love what the Tea Parties are doing, because that’s how we’re going to take back America!” she declared, as the crowd cheered. In a subsequent interview, she described herself as an early member of the movement, joking, “I was part of the Tea Party before it was cool!” She explained that the role of Americans for Prosperity was to help “educate” Tea Party activists on policy details, and to give them “next-step training” after their rallies, so that their political energy could be channelled “more effectively.” And she noted that Americans for Prosperity had provided Tea Party activists with lists of elected officials to target. She said of the Kochs, “They’re certainly our people. David’s the chairman of our board. I’ve certainly met with them, and I’m very appreciative of what they do.”

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer#ixzz1Hv8Y7c9W

Don't think the Kochs can pretend to be neutral. That ship sailed.

Nuetral or not they have given a lot to causes that are decidedly democratic.

But hey, if they are your boogymen, then that's it for you. I understand.

Debt and debt service will severely frustrate what the unions are trying to do.

Just look to the failed states in Europe. Same thing.

I've given my examples of their devotion to Conservative causes. If they give to Democratic causes I suspect it's strictly in the nature of Blue Dogs or to make sure they have a little something to pull on the other side of the aisle. If you feel otherwise feel free to surprise me.

As far as Europe is concerned just today Glenn Beck was crying about how George Soros manipulated every European election, thereby potentially halting the march of Conservatism across Europe. Recent events in Germany were specifically cited in this regard. He was talking about long wars and the need to regroup and reorganize to mount another attack. Doesn't sound like Conservatives are quite so certain that they have Liberalism on the ropes for good.

Navy

It's a shame for Republicans and their Teabagger goons. There's no "middle class" in their dictionary. Hence, OBLITERATE the middle class. That is their own meaning of a prosperous America.

When are the dems coimng back in Indiana?

Kinda hard to do anything if they refuse to participate, right?

Yea Navy, you are right ........ the Dems are being threatened with the loss of their campaign money in the form of confiscated union dues, the union political machine, the goon squads for protests / rallies, etc and are shoving all in.

In Wisconsin, the Supreme Court is up for grabs. Prosser, who has served since 1998 won the primary with 55%. The Dem, an environmental lawyer had less than half his vote. Prosser had promised to hold spending at $300,000.00. Then the Greater Wisconsin Committee, a leftist organization with deep union ties starts funnelling $3 million into anti-Prosser advertising, flooding the airwaves with pure ad hominen, dirty campaign ads. Funny - evened up now.

Unions spending 10 times the money! Yea, that's the American way. National union money pouring into a little no name envirnomental lawyer for a race in Wisconsin.

Where is that evil Chamber of Commerce?

You are such a tool, Navy.

Hey Navy

Don't forget to include Governor Malloy of Connecticut in your list of the unpopular. He down 35% approval to 40% disapproval after his budget. But he's democrat who raised taxes so it doesn't fit into your narrative.

Navy and Pius - wasn't it the democrats that created the tax systems in most states, and especially Cali, New York, Ill, NJ, you know the states that are totally failing right now?

So do you blame the dems for creating the very situation we are all in now at the state level? It was the dems that chose to rely so heavily on the rich and now it is the middle class that is effected, right?

Can you tell us why the dems created such poor state tax systems? Cali has been under dem control for ever, they controlled the tax code. Yet it is the worst off of any. How can that be?

How do either of you reconcile that?

GOPTP Governor Terry Branstad in Iowa is falling fast as well. http://iowaindependent.com/52711/dmr-poll-most-iowans-dissatisified-with-branstads-job-performance

Hi Navy,

Hopefully, the people can get these Republican Tea Baggers out of office soon. Recall.

Our proposed budget includes huge cuts to education and NO tax on natural gas revenue. And the Gov. ran on a platform that was going to balance the budget by cutting waste---shame on the voters for believing him.

Spanky and bob...

I find it quite interesting that the libbies out here ignore your questions and fail to respond to your comments. All they do is post the same old CRAP they always post. Most of which is simply wishful thinking on their part. They quote they left-wing websites as evidence that they are correct, yet they fail to see that those same websites are in only wishful thinking as well.

Libbies: Scream out that the middle class is under attack! Scream out that a recall is in order! Scream out that it is a mass conspiracy by 'BIG BUSINESS'! Scream out... Scream out.... AHHGGGGHHGGHHHH!!!!!

(Lunatics)

That not interesting, that's just indicative of their capabilities.

Take my gal Feisty. Or Bev. or any of the others - there's just no there, there.

All they do is complain about cuts, yet fail to address the reasons why.

Think any of them will admit as to the feds - the tax code has been in the dem's hands for a long, long time? If it's jacked, then it's kinda have to be cause the dems [you know Rangel] dropped the ball.

Same in many states. Take Cali, NY and Ill. Those were not republican congresses that draft the tax codes.

Nope - it's al the Kock's fault, right Bev?

And how about wars for oil? Uh, No, but looks like we got a black kettle situation now.

SickofBickering - I suspect it will be you who are left screaming when the recall effort in Wisconsin is successful which it will be. Many of these governors and legislators will be gone in 2012. Then we'll see who was correct.

Sp Sickof B lives in Wisconsin?

Huh? And where my gal AnnaM?

Bob, that is spoken like the true Public Sector Parasite that you are.I hate to wish bad Luck on people,but if by some chance Houses burn to the ground or other Tradgedies befall folks:

They'll be the 1st ones screaming:

I Want My Country Back!

Bob, go back and read the article again. It's not the unions Kasich is after, it's workers' rights. Public AND private.

Public sector parasites today - heroes on 9/11.

People who paid union dues is none of your business. It's their money.

Job1... you are an idiot!

People being FORCED to pay union dues is nothing more than EXTORTION!

If you don't pay the union dues... you can't work! (sounds like the unions are definitely watching out for the workers!) NOT

SickoftheBickering - Come on stop already. You and I both know that singularly it's hard for an individual to effect change in their work conditions or their pay and benefits but collectively workers have a voice. That's what unions are for and most people in one are glad they are. Additionally, without unions, wages and benefits will drift downward for all people union and non-union. So all those people who think they are sticking to union people will only turn around to see their own pay and benefits erode.

Well SickOfTheBickering,

I have to say that you are an idiot that doesn't know your butt from a hole in the ground, and I suggest that you study your history. I know you tea baggers don't value an education, but you should try.

JoAnne: Excellent comment. GOP/TPers just do not want to recognize the hard work done by the public sector. But giving big business a pass, well that's another story.

So I was in a gun store in Havasu a couple of weeks ago. They had about 20 totally tricked out Ruger Mini 14s, which is a great "assualt" rifle. They were used, but totally tricked out with awesome scopes and other accessories. They were also dirt cheap.

I asked what the deal was - apparently the LHC Police Department decided to "upgrade" and got a bunch of shiny new AR-15's. Now mind you there is very little difference between the two, but it came down to a budget call - they had a but-load of money left and if they didn't spend it...

So They all got shiny new AR-15, and I got me a totally ticked out, SWEET Ruger.

Gosh I would love to be able to upgrade all of my office equipment, but I have to make sure it would be financially prudent. It sure looks like that's not always the concern when you are the government, and it isn't your money, right JoAnne? Cause see it sure seems to me the LHCPD could have gotten by a couple more years with thhe old sniper rifles, you do yu disagree JoAnna?

And Ron - business actually has to pay as it goes, where as the government, not so much.

Also raise you hand if you are in the private sector and have a lifetime gaurenteed pension.

Hey, Ron -

Maybe we could hold a bake sale to buy some new office chairs for the worker drones down at Do As I Say, Not As I Do, Inc while we're at it - apparently they're not "financially prudent" right now. But the boss scoring a totally tricked out sweet little Ruger for himself apparently is. Guess it all depends on your priorities, huh?

(raises his hand)

Spanky, you are a nincompoop. Mini14s are NOT assault OR sniper rifles, as you say. It's more like a utility rifle. If accuracy and reliability are what the police are after, then the AR is the way to go.

Here in Akron, if you want a decent AR15 as a police officer, you purchase it yourself, or so all of my policemen friends would have me believe. If a dept had the money to buy those, good for them! It means they made cuts and savings elsewhere from their original projected budget. Do you even know how public sector budgets ACTUALLY work?

Sorry Chip a mini ruger shoots the same .223 caliber as an AR-15. Don't know about you but that's make them roughly similarly assaulting should you get shot by one.

So let's review - they took a bunch of perfectly serviceable weapons and dumped them [for $100 each to the dealer]. They then bought a but-load of Ar-15's [at well over $2k each].

Sound fiscally responsible to you?

Good news is now that I got me a Mini-Ruger, I can go for the AK-47 next. :)

Isn't that the truth Bill???!!!!

There is no one so blind as he who will not see.....

Uh, Diane, honey, you do understand the difference between the Obama tax cuts for the rich, which are Federal, and you state's state income tax system.

Viva Las Vegas.

But otherwise, it was a nice, although somewhat incoherent, rant. I'm sure Kasich is paying attention. But do tell us how what Kasich does effects the fine people in the great state of Nevada.

But don't worry I'm coming shortly to provide a boost to the local vegas economy. Got me a suite at the Cosmopolitan. It looks nice.

Spanky,

That's interesting. I am staying at the Cosmopolitan as well... in May. (and it does look nice ;-)

I'm a big The Hotel, Wynn, and Palazzo fan, but this one looks cool.

I stayed at the Aria last month - it was nice. But I'm a big fan of adult pools, as long the place has one, I'm in.

Er... Uh... hey there w_bush... the unions ALREADY DO THAT! (what a dolt!)

Diane and W: I, and I think many others, just disregard any comments made by Spank, Bob-188, JS1, No Blow, STB, and others who I believe are nothing more than paid provocateurs, or in a kinder vein, just plain idiots who do nothing but spout their endless drivel, never expressing a positive solution, never expecting their party to do REAL deficit cutting, just simply mimicking all they've seen and heard on Faux News, or Beck's blackboard. They will not contribute to a decent conversation of any sort regarding REAL problems, REAL solutions, or REAL thoughts. I don't know if there is an "ignore" button on this site. If there is, please someone tell me where so I can remove their "bickering" tiresome azzes from my view.

Cathy -- Click on the (!) on the bottom right hand corner, a drop down menu will pop up and there's the ignore author option!

I've been using it for weeks with the majority of niwits you listed above!

Makes life SO much more pleasant! :o)

Hush-money is always expensive. When you are part of the criminal conspiracy, they need to pay you to keep you in the fold.

Retired good post. Semper Fi

Thanks. I don't get how people think that Government workers are some how living large on the expense of everybody else.

"I don't get how people think that Government workers are some how living large on the expense of everybody else."

Well, then, you are clueless. Pay a visit to your local DMV, to catch the entitled sneering public employee mentality. Search databases of public employees and find out how many are relatives of politicians. Find out how many get lifetime jobs for doing little or nothing. See how many falsely retire on, ahem, 'disability' .

See how the public sector is growing out of control...

See how teacher unions have destroyed accountability in the public education system. See how public unions used thug tactics and trashed the Wiscinsin State house, to protect their special privileges..

Read Howie Carr in the Boston Herald, for his never ending series on public sector parasites in liberal Massachusetts.

BOb, Bob, Bob, the one who is obviously clueless is you, most public employees are hard working middle class ordinary Americans, Police, Fireman, Teachers, FBI Agents, CIA, ATF and the list goes on. You're the same type of person who would call the police if you saw someone in your neighborhood you didn't recognize. You are being manipulated by the people who hate unions the most, large corporations who only motive is money, unions are bad for business. So I guess while you were growing up, all those lazy bottom feeding teachers didn't teach you a thing, yet here you are posting on a blog like someone who knows how to read and write, maybe you were home schooled.

Likely, The last TRUTHFUL statement he ever made.

Exactly, JD. How else to you explain working to take away worker protections and rights while assuring us they aren't needed? If they don't want to change the work rules there's no reason to change the laws, is there?

The politicians especially the GOP wants us all to work in factories just like they have in 3rd worlds, even have a cot for you to sleep in so your not late for work. They can all kiss my A$$ if they think they going to work in luxury settings making laws for those that they want as just a number. Take the job or shove it has always been an attitude with the Southern Aristocrats, where slave labor was born. This is why factories that do stay here want to go South for favoritism by the South GOP. It wasn't unions that destroyed this country it was pure & simple greed at it's highest form right in Wall Street which has become an " ANTI AMERICAN INSTITUTION ". Richard Fuld ex CEO of Lehman Brothers goes bankrupt then awards himself multi millions in BONUS & calls it "CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS " just as if he were union at Wall Street. He stole the bonus off the backs of pensions plans, now hiding in Idaho. Oh no this is going to go ballistic just like in London England. I hope the Price's son has a nice wedding with riots going all around. The real crooks are right in government & Wall street. It's time to start a war right here, & it's already began, a class warfare. I am sick & tired of them picking on the poor & the middle class there trying to keep their power by way of the GOP.