Enjoyed your post, Louis. So true, President Obama has conservatives so confused they no longer remember they are always pro-war. He has them twisted in knots being for action in Libya and now against action in Libya and who knows where they'll stand tomorrow.

Only coalition planes are flying in the no-fly zone, Louis.

The hand-off of the no-fly zone is a moot point.

Handing off the rest of it?

Well, that's another matter entirely, isn't it?

LouisJ

The greatest handoffs in NFL history were given to running backs that could get the job done. However for the handoff to be effective, the quarterback had to have capacity to view the field around him in case he would need to audible. President Obama should be at the top of the list in the NFL Hall of Fame.

Now thanks for the humor to end he week........this is classic! Obama is a fumbler Louis, not being able to handle anything correctly, not just a football handoff. The only placement for Obama after the 2012 election will be the statement: "Obama (D) ILL., worst President ever, even Jimmy Carter (D) Georgia was more accomplished than him.

Well, Jody, I have to admit it- I AM confused.

I do not know what Obama's objective is in Libya.

I do not know who is driving the policy- is it Obama? Hillary? Susan Rice?

I do not know what the end game is, in Libya- what success, or failure, will look like.

I DO know that we will pay an unacceptably high price if Qaddafi comes out of this alive. I do not know if Obama grasps that reality- or, if like all others, he rejects it, because, well, because, it does not fit his theory.

Kind of like those 600,000 jobs that were supposed to appear in the summer of 2009, thanks to the stimulous bill.

No joe,

They need a no-Gadhafi zone on Earth.

It is very doubtful that will happen. And in a few years, who do you think the mad-man is going to go after - the Arab League the UN?

Not pretty is it.

Look- here is a well known "right wing rag" raising the same question as I

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/world/africa/25policy.html?_r=1&hp

They also have a story on the rise of radical Islam in Egypt.

I thought Carter was bad. Obama is so much worse it is difficult to believe his entire presidency is not a bad dream.

Louis J:

Nice job, I really like the analogy, makes a lot of sense. Have a great weekend.

It does not suprise me No Joe that you don't know anything. You seldom do.

Short and to the very accurate point California Tom...I salute you!

This coming from Mr. "to vote".

Still, I'm curious, Tom. So, tell me, what is the objective in Libya? What defines success? Who is running the show?

And,please, no ephemeral "humanitarian" intent- were that the case, we would be sending food and doctors, not Tomahawk. Missiles.

I'm curious...has Ol' Newt made a final decision on whether or not he'd intervene in Libya?

NoJoe, the objective in Libya has been well laid out. By the U.S. and other members of the coalition. So far, it is proceeding according to the stated objective. If you choose not to read the news, that is your choice. I don't agree with the action myself, but I don't fault the execution of the stated plan.

Da Noid- when did Newt get elected president?

Fieldon, great- you seem to have the answers.

What are they?

ARRRRGH! RVZ555 is on to us. He's figured out our diabolical plan to turn the United States into NEW SPAIN with a Socialist Government! OH NO! RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, I guess we'll have to change a few laws first, like opening the borders and letting illegal aliens vote, etc.

DUH! RVZ555 for all we know you're an illegal alien, from alph centauri or the Cling-on Empire (and we all know what that is :-) Gosh sometimes I crack myself up)

Is "RVZ" your first name or last name, or is it some kind of Tea Party designation?

Sarah Palin certainly didn't dither when the governorship became too tough - she up and quit!

Michelle Bachmann certainly hasn't dithered over deciding to run for President - she got out there and started making those presidential gaffes, pronto!

Newt Gingrich didn't dither when he fell in love with a new woman while his wife suffered in the hospital - he jumped on that new love!

...and so on

yup, not a dither-er in that pack!

Maybe, field on, you could post those answers for everyone who seeks them

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/03/25/a_mission_wrapped_in_confusion_109341.html

You DO know who Eugene Robinson is, do you not? Guy so far left he cannot see the middle?

RVZ555

You evil righties are missing the point in your responses to Old (Is there a Nazi Behind Me) Navy's paranoid ramblings about voter IDs. THE LIBS WANT AS MANY ILLEGAL ALIENS AS POSSIBLE TO BE IN THE COUNTRY AND VOTE DEMOCRAT!!!!

If consertaves would stop blaming Hispanics for ALL our problems and stop passing laws singling then out just maybe they would vote republican. RVZ555 how the hell can Illegals vote when they are not documented? How can they vote if they have NO ID, right now a illegal can't get on a plane if they don't have the proper ID to get past TSA. see this is the problem with republicans, Consertaves and ultra righties, they blame people for problems in this country but at the same time complain that these same people don't vote for there candidates.

Its the same as the southern Democrats (really republicans) 50 years ago, they blamed all the souths problems on blacks, they denied they the right to vote, and now are complain that black will not vote for republicans(old southern democrats) and accuse (Liberal) democrats pandering to black voters, if southern (republicans)democrats would have though twice about how they were treating black folks maybe today 50 years later a republican would get more than 10% of blacks voting for them.

nojonobo:

You DO know who Eugene Robinson is, do you not? Guy so far left he cannot see the middle?

Since you sit on the lunatic fringe of the far right, I'm sure Robinson seems like some wild-eyed lefty, but he's not. So yes, Robinson is accusing Obama of "leadership," and I'm sure Obama is guilty as charged, despite the Orwelllian attacks from the right. Robinson makes note of a fact in his article that has escaped most of the corporate media:

Without U.S. diplomatic leadership, there would have been no U.N. Security Council resolution.

No UN resolution, no intervention. Period. Obama could have saved himself a lot of headaches and abuse from the Republicans and the media if he'd just done nothing. Obama's decision to intervene for humanitarian reasons carries big political risks for him, and Robinson has doubts about how it will end. Doing the right thing often carries risks.

REPOSTED THANKS TO THE REPUGS THAT CANNOT STAND THE TRUTH AND RESORT TO CENSORSHIP

I told you all it was coming. Ohio and Texas have passed bills to disenfranchise over 1 Million US Citizens of their right to vote.

Republican lawmakers are ginning up the specter of voter fraud (just like they jacked up the reality of budget deficits) to pass voter ID laws that would severely restrict the voting rights of millions. Wednesday the GOP/TP in the Ohio House secured passage of “what could become the “nation’s most restrictive voter identification law.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/24/ohio-voter-id-law/

“In just eight days, House Republicans hustled through HB 159, a bill that would require voters to show one of five forms of ID to vote in person: an Ohio driver’s license, state ID, military ID, U.S. passport, or “a new, free photo ID that State Bureau of Motor Vehicles would dispense to indigent citizens who qualify.” Currently, voters must show a photo ID or present a utility bill, bank statement, paycheck or government document with a current name and address. Unlike other states’ photo ID laws, HB 159 would not even allow students to use IDs issued by state colleges

representatives from the Board of Elections, the League of Women Voters, and the former Secretary of State office “have never even heard of one” instance of voter impersonation in Ohio. As the Brennan Center for Justice notes, a statewide survey found four instances of ineligible persons voting or attempting to vote in 2002 and 2004 out of 9,078,728 votes case — “a rate of 0.00004%.”

“However, bills like HB 159 stands to severely restrict or exclude millions (at least 12%) of America’s voting population, most notably seniors, the disabled, low-income voters, students, and people of color. As Ohio Democrats noted, an estimated 890,000 voting age Ohioans do not currently have a government-issued photo ID, including significant numbers of blacks and people older than 65.” What’s more, the GOP bill would actually cost the state “up to $20 million to implement”.

“Yesterday, the Texas House passed a similarly restrictive voter ID bill to "curb voter fraud." Noting that there has been "just one case of convicted voter impersonation" since 2002, House Democrats argued that the bill is "about disenfranchising groups of people who do not historically vote for the Republican Party" -- such as "minorities and the elderly." Though Democrats managed to kill voter ID legislation the past two sessions, the bill passed 101-48. Both chambers "were tasked by Gov. Rick Perry with making voter ID legislation a priority”. Texas is broke and they are worried about the Democrats voting rights (the denial of). You go get those nasty DEMS and take away their right to vote. If you cannot win on truth, justice and the American way – cheat, the GOP/TP is real good at this. Ask Karl Rove.

State governors have lied about the severity of their budget deficits and now they are making up more lies about voter fraud. These people will stop at nothing to deny you your right to vote, to have fair and open elections without interference from outside entities whether domestic or foreign, continuous assault on the reproductive rights and fair pay for women, gay rights, religious intolerance, break up our unions and the list goes on.

Another attack on the Middle Class Michigan reduces the maximum period a person can receive state unemployment benefits from 26 to 20 weeks, the lowest in the nation, officials said. Gov. Rick Snyder (R) indicated Thursday that he would sign the bill.

From the Washington Post this morning: “Twenty days into a recall campaign spurred by the state’s rollicking budget fight, Wisconsin Democrats are now predicting that they will be able to take back control of the state Senate this summer.

Statewide, Democrats say they have over fifty percent of the number of petitions they need to recall eight Republican state senators, although they are not over the fifty percent threshold in every district”.

“We’re well ahead of schedule,” said Graeme Zielinski, Wisconsin Democratic Party spokesman. “I think in mid-summer, you will have a Democratic Senate.”

More States to do recalls??

Well Navy Disabled and Retired, perhaps the "thugs" took your post away due to the content. But, every person is entitled to their opinion, and you and I served to protect those rights. By my perspective, your views are incorrect, but, from a liberal perspective, quite natural.

Do you also become angry when you and your followers on the site censor a right leaning opinion?

I also find it interesting that unlike most in the services, you possess a very left-leaning status. Most Lifers enjoy the respect they received from the part-timers. It did stroke several of my nco'S egos.

Don't you have to show a Photo ID to open a bank account/

Don't you have to show a Photo ID to pay with a check?

Don't you have to show a Photo ID to use your Credit Card?

Don't you have to have a Drivers License to drive a car?

Don't you have to have to show a Photo ID to a cop if asked?

So why not to vote?

And as far as voter fraud go to:

http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1103/110317lakecounty.htm

And read about voter fraud.

Clever RVZ, I have to admit I enjoyed it. It's fun to find someone with a sense of humor.

Now go get some help and tell Mr. Koch, as far as I'm concerned he can stick where the moon don't shine, ok?

OK slodon, that's 1. How many votes were cast in 2010?

Anything that says it's widespread enough to restrict voting by students and create obstacles for others who might have trouble getting just the right type of ID as called for in these proposals?

SwampPot and Slodon:

Swampy first. I am a DAV and Fiscally Conservative and a Social Liberal/Progressive. There are a lot like me buried in Arlington and other Military Cemeteries in this country. Just because myself, my father, grandfather and my daughter are all Military does not mean we do not think for ourselves and have opinions and it does not mean we are automatically a GOPER. Some reports now say the Military is almost 50/50 with the advantage still on the republican side but not by a landside by no menas. In fact if I was and I saw what is going on in that party now I would abandon ship in a heart beat.

Slodon: That article talks about one ILLEGAL ALIEN - ONE. Not exactly a voting fraud crisis by a very very very long shot. Nice try, but you see unlike you guys we do read the links you post. Maybe there is something there we could learn that may change our minds. Yours missed the boat big time on your source of one illegal vote in the many of millions and millions cast. Do you even know how many people voted in 2010 and 2012? Tens of Millions and all you can find is ONE. Do the math.

My post was not about ID cards. I have no problem being asked for ID when I vote. NONE. But he GOP/TP only wants one specific type of ID that many people may not be able to secure, PERIOD. And they do it for the reason I noted.

I have a right to post on this board just like everybody else. I DO NOT flag people I let their posts stand. I did not violate any CoH rules. It is the righties who cannot stand the truth that do this on a routine basis. There is nothing in my post that is a lie, everything I said can be very easily verified. My opinions are just that, my opinions and I am entitled to them. I put my life on the line to defend these right for everybody and I will be damn to let some twits try and take them away. You included.

@Navy Disabled & Retired,

SwampPot and Slodon:

Swampy first. I am a DAV and Fiscally Conservative and a Social Liberal/Progressive. There are a lot like me buried in Arlington and other Military Cemeteries in this country. Just because myself, my father, grandfather and my daughter are all Military does not mean we do not think for ourselves and have opinions and it does not mean we are automatically a GOPER. Some reports now say the Military is almost 50/50 with the advantage still on the republican side but not by a landside by no menas. In fact if I was and I saw what is going on in that party now I would abandon ship in a heart beat.

Like you Chief, I am DAV too, a fiscal conservative and a person who could never be a member of the Progressive movement. I do value our military, and like you, I have unfortunately have a few members of my team listed on the "Wall." One, unfortunately can never be recovered and buried, and I feel this loss daily.

But as for who is buried at Arlington, and other military cemetaries around the world, I look at those honored dead as Americans, not a body associated with a party.

I have a right to post on this board just like everybody else. I DO NOT flag people I let their posts stand. I did not violate any CoH rules. It is the righties who cannot stand the truth that do this on a routine basis. There is nothing in my post that is a lie, everything I said can be very easily verified. My opinions are just that, my opinions and I am entitled to them. I put my life on the line to defend these right for everybody and I will be damn to let some twits try and take them away.

And you do have a right to post your opinion Chief. But there are items in your posts that stretch the truth......but that is you opinion of which you are entitled. And Righties are entitled to theirs also. When someone does have a good discussison on this site, there are severalliberals/progressives who do go into attack mode not allowing that person their opinion. Such personal attacks do not meet the MSNBC CoH, but they are not censored or placed in time out for their childish actions. Why is that Chief?

And one comment on a personal note, my callsign has importance to me, and it is not Swampot as you comment on, but SwampyJackpot......actually SwampyJackpot26, but that's another story.

Have a great weekend, and thank you for your service.

IR: Great post to end the week. People just do not remember or choose not to, that without a labor movement in this country we would not have the standard of living we have today. We would not have the safety and protection laws that keep workers and civilians out of harms way. We would have less education, less home ownership and probably a lot less of other things we take fro granted each and every day.

The GOP/TP is going the wrong way and wants to take us back to what they think were the good old days of the 30's and 40's. They even want to changed child labor laws as well.

IR:

You remembered and factually presented their story for all of us to remember. Well done my friend.

Excellent post, IR. How true that we continue to hear from business and those in their pockets that any regulation is unacceptable. The purpose of Government is to protect the public from the greed and corruption of the private--the Triangle Shirtwaist fire is proof that Government is necessary. History should always be our guide to keep us from repeating the failures and tragedies of the past.

You know, I am sorry for what happened at the Triangle factory. There are laws on the books today that work well to prevent future tragedies.

I'm sorry, but the history lesson is falling a little flat today. It is a distraction from current events- you know, Libya, the rest of the Middle East in chaos, Israel being bombed again, the debt crisis, the budget crisis, high unemployment. . .

Indy -- No one can take history and weave into a compelling story like you!

Thank you my friend! ;o)

PS: What's the line up for tonights festivites over at the Dew Drop Inn? Are you aware that tomorrow is designated: 'Make Up Your Own Holiday' Day?

Oh my gosh, Feisty, I didn't know that, but it should provoke some excellent ideas for a Dew Drop Inn party. Let me be the first to suggest one: Party to bring Spring to the Prairie and other Locales Deep in Snow." I propose drums and loud music to get Mother Nature's attention!

Feisty and NDD:

Count me in could go from some loud toe tapping old fashion "Rock and Roll".

Thanks, IR. It's hard to believe anyone could actually think this is just a "history lesson" and a "distraction" and be too blind to see the very real connection it has to current events. Well, maybe not blind - maybe more like willfully looking the other way.

Red I didn't know that either. Got the Bouncer moving some surplus big screens over to the Big Room at the Comeback Inn so's everybody gets to see their teams play up close and personal. Rumor has it that We're going to have a cake to wish HCR a happy birthday. I'm sure that with a little input from everybody we can come up a holiday to bring a smile to all participants.

Shucks JoAnne you know how it is. Some of can be satisfied with saying our piece and moving on and some of us won't be satisfied until they've said the same old piece the same old way so many times that folks just get tired of hearing it and tune them out

A friend reminded me last night that unions help those who aren't in unions because management gives non-union employees at least some benefits in order to keep them from organizing and demanding even more benefits. So if we have no unions, that threat goes away.

Goes to show the difference between the left and the right-

In light of the multiple crises of TODAY, I am finding it difficult to be distracted by something that happened ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO, which exposed problems that have been addressed by legislation which works to preclude such a tragedy happening now or in the future.

Those on the left would prefer to focus on this historical event as if it were contemporaneous, as it deflects from current events- which are not exactly flattering to their idol.

No wonder Obama is seen as the most polarizing president in history. His worshippers cannot even focus on what is going on around them, unless it redounds to his credit. Since nothing does, they must resurrect crises of the long dead past.

Good luck with that.

I'm liking the Celebrate Spring theme for the party----hope we can send better weather to New Day and all the other folks dealing with weather issues. 28 degrees here this morning.

No Jo:

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. That is why IR's's story is so important.

Yes there are laws that could prevent this in the future, but laws can be repealed or weakened at any time. The struggle to preserve the basic principles and rights that our country was founded on did not end in the early 20th century. In fact, the struggle never ends, and it is up to everyone to do their part to prevent the forces of greed and corruption from enslaving us and threatening our life and livelihood.

Thank you Michael L Well said

Michael L -

Thanks - that was my point exactly.

Michael- you mean like Obama dropping bombs on Tripoli with no coherent end in sight?

You do not think that maybe Qaddafi will blow up another passenger jet in retaliation, do you?

Michael, well said.

NoJoe, Michaels post illustrates why all of these topics are inter-related. Though they may at times seem off topic.

Great post IR. Absolutely on the point.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, over and over and over again. Just look at the posts from the no-so-right if you don't believe me.

The point of remembering a100+ year old tragedy and the unfortunate, dehumanizing reaction to it is so we do not repeat it.

IR, thanks for a reminder of how seriously people sometimes suffered to bring us the world we live in today. We need those reminders because even now there are people working to undo 100 years of progress. They try to convince us that all that progress is obsolete, that it no longer matters.

It matters if they're successful in taking us back to those days of the Robber Barons as they would choose to do.

" There are laws on the books today that work well to prevent future tragedies."

This is what drives me crazy. The liberals, lefties, moonbats, progressives, or whatever you want to call us, FOUGHT for these laws against stiff opposition from big "bidness," just as we fought to create Social Security, unemployment insurace, Medicare and Medicaid, and Republicans act like these things just happened, just fell out of the sky, just evolved like a flower opening its petals to the sun.

Frances Perkins, first female cabinent member, was Labor Secretary during FDR's adminstration.

Her career in labor was set in motion when she personally witnessed the Triangle Shirtwaist tragedy and vowed to do everything she could improve working conditions in this country.

Perkins was instrumental in the creation of child labor laws, workplace safety regulations, the creation of Social Security, unemployment insurance and setting standards for overtime pay and minimum wages.

THIS is the woman, whose family came from Maine, whose name new Tea Party governor Paul LePage wants to expunge from a conference room in the Maine Dept of Labor.

Here is the website for the Frances Perkins Center in Newcastle, Maine

http://francesperkinscenter.org/index.php

Michael:

Kudos. Well said I enjoy your posts everyday. Have a great weekend.

Amy -

This is just one of the many current events that IR's "historical" post very much relates to today.

"Maine Gov. Paul LePage has ordered the removal of a 36-foot mural depicting the state’s labor history from the lobby of the Department of Labor headquarters building in Augusta.

In addition, the LePage administration is renaming several department conference rooms that carry the names of pro-labor icons such as Cesar Chavez.

LePage spokesman Dan Demeritt says the mural and the conference room names are not in keeping with the department’s pro-business goals and some business owners complained.

The mural was erected in 2008. It depicts several moments in Maine labor history, including a 1937 shoe mill strike in Auburn and Lewiston and “Rosie the Riveter” at the Bath Iron Works.

The Sun Journal newspaper says some worker advocates feel the move is a “mean-spirited” provocation."

Maybe as long as he's re-naming the conference rooms, Governor LePage can just rename the Department of LABOR to the Department of BIG BUSINESS.

http://new.bangordailynews.com/2011/03/23/politics/maine-governor-remove-labor-mural-from-labor-dept/?ref=mostReadBox

nojonobo:

In light of the multiple crises of TODAY, I am finding it difficult to be distracted by something that happened ONE HUNDRED YEARS AGO,

The old saying is "Those that don't remember history are condemned to repeat it." That's exactly why the radical right would like everyone to forget the history of labor in America: so they can condemn us to a repeat of the dark times of the past. But don't let anyone concerned with history distract you from your monomaniacal hatred of Obama. It wouldn't be possible no matter how hard we tried, anyway.

"Maybe as long as he's re-naming the conference rooms, Governor LePage can just rename the Department of LABOR to the Department of BIG BUSINESS."

Yes! That is apparently what he is up to. Note: there is a bill coming up in the Maine legislature to waive overtime pay regulations for workers at the largest egg farms in the state, chiefly DeCosta Egg Farms, known throughout the nation for their filthy operations. I hope Frances Perkins comes back to haunt the Republican who is putting this forward.

Why bother, DeCoster has a long history of hiring illegals anyway. http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2010/1109/Egg-recall-DeCoster-linked-farm-releases-contaminated-eggs.-Again

If the name DeCoster doesn't sound familiar just remember the half BILLION eggs that were recalled from one producer last year. It was national news. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/20/business/main6791160.shtml

Jody:
I love your "And that's the way it is" analysis. You are becoming the new Walter Cronkite. (No one else in the media can fill his shoes.) Well written, well done...and factual.

But- was Jody's post factual? You don't seem to address that....

Jody:

Great wrap up for the week. The GOP/TP agenda, now that it has been exposed for what it really is - a take over of the Middle Class, is starting to unravel at the seems. People are still taking to the streets, filling out recall petitions and threatening to bring bills up for referendum and letting the people vote instead of the politicians on their merits, or lack of. GO USA, the sleeping giant is on the move.

Jody - I too am enjoying your weekly wrap up. Well done. Your post is well written.

Thank you. I'm no Cronkhite, we sure could use one though. But I do try to analyze the events and when possible, poke some fun at the weird and often hypocritical politics of today.

Jody. Iowa

Great post. Gingrich was for the humanitarian effort in Libya before he was against it. Bachmann is waiting to hear from God, he is going to tell her if she should run for President. We don't know how this will be communicated, maybe e-mail, facebook, twitter or just a bolt from the blue. The White House must be celebrating this morning looking at the bunch of loonies running against President Obama in 2012. I have a great deal of material to e-mail this morning to the Weeper of the House.

Excellent wrap up of a most interesting week, Jody!

Great recap, Jody---I look forward to it. I had missed the Huckabee DADT thing---I guess he must have felt the lies about the President weren't enough to solidify his position with his base!

Bolton may be in trouble for suggesting that the President is in any way smart, sophisticated and nuanced----that runs afoul of the line that he is incompetent.

Jody,

I really like your new "political" wrap up column. I could not do half as well.

One thing (non political issue) we should all be concerened about is the worsening crisis in Japan with 10,000 officially dead and another 17,000 missing. I know all like minded people continue to send their thoughts, well wishes, prayers and monetary funds to help.

Jody-

"The polling on Libya revealed much about conservatives today. 77% of the GOP/TP supports a No-Fly Zone in Libya, yet 63% of those same supporters disapprove of the way President Obama has handled the Libyan crisis. It seems that even when the GOPTPers support the action the President took, they cannot bring themselves to support the democratic President who took that action."

That information made my head spin around backwards when I saw the segment on cbale news last night!

Our electorate is indeed pathetic if they can't figure out that the CIC can't be --------(Fill in the negative blank) and be effective in carrying out a cohernt policy in Libya at the same time!

These respondents really HATE the President so much that they cannot be objective. Twisted like a pretzel. Sound like they went to the Newt Gingrich School of Confliction.

If someone with integrity were running show at any of these networks they would tell the pollsters that "these results do not pass muster because they make no sense, so come back when you can explain how "the mission is just fine but the man behind the mission is ineffective".

Seriously.

Jody, I really enjoy these weekly compilations. It's amazing to think this much crazy stuff could happen in just one week, isn't it?

Sheila, isn't it interesting how much capacity Conservatives have for believing two contradictory things at the same time? Of course Conservative leaders are rarely limited to saying only two contradictory things at the same time, so it follows. Conservatism isn't about consistency of thought or principle, it's about finding a narrative to sell whatever they wish at a given time.

How true. Say whatever they want to get elected and then do the opposite.

Bait and Switch artists who sell bridges and swamp land on the side.

@US Navy: Isn't Washington D.C. built on swampland ?

And also, Cape Kennedy, and Walt Disney World ?

And what is the similarity: all consist of people with great dreams of reaching for the stars but who never have their feet planted on firm ground.

I'm glad you enjoyed my post; thanks. Sheila, it really is enough to make your head swim. I found those poll numbers to be the most revealing of polls and the GOP's problem--it isn't President Obama's leadership, what he does, how he does it; it is just they cannot accept that he is president least of all that he does them very well.

Thank you. This is a great piece of information. I take it that this is not the same guy -- an assistant AG I believe -- who resigned earlier over similar inciting comments.

Interesting state, Indiana.

You're on a roll today, US Navy. Republicans used to hide their thug-styled politics, today they openly post it and their legislation is no longer subtle in its goal. Indiana is better off now that Lam resigned--ironically, he was part of the public sector work force benefiting from union bargaining rights. Nothing like biting the hand that feeds you.

Anna Molly:

You are up and about on this Friday morning. Hope you didn't stay up too late. It was the butler, with a gun on the b-ball court. Smile, it was meant to be funny.

Ron:

It was the butler, with a gun on the b-ball court.

My team was clueless, that's for sure. ;-)

Oh, you guys must have missed the memo.

The whole Wisconsin thing is over ever since the Koch brothers borrowed Dick Cheney's weather dominator (you know, the one he used to sic Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans) and used it to cause the earthquake and the resulting tsunami in Japan. Then they started the whole uprising thing in the Middle East just to prove that they could. It's all in my new book: Koch Suckers: How the $#!% Did We Ever Survive without Them?. I'll send you a copy if the Illuminati allow it to be published.

Thanks!

Looks like you learned your lack of respect, hateful bitter ways and your lack of civility in Wisconsin. You probably attended Wisconsin schools.

US Navy, Quit lying. There was no talk of using thugs to stir up violence. the term was trouble makers. You know, kind of like the dems who were caught at tea party rallies with signs in an attempt to discredit them. Walker decided not to use liberal tactics and you try to spin it as advocating violence. I think you need to head over to the Flea Bag Inn for a stiff one.

Tony C:

Looks like you learned your lack of respect, hateful bitter ways and your lack of civility in Wisconsin. You probably attended Wisconsin schools.

Before you say another word that, like these words, continues to confirm exactly what you're about, I think you would do well to go back and re-read your first post to me, which wasn't so far away from this one. Your complete lack of respect for me and false assumptions about me, just because I happen to support the rights of public workers, are what started this dispute. I have no interest in you otherwise. What I learned in Wisconsin is to treat ALL people with respect, until they give me a reason not to. You did that with your very first post, and I've seen it confirmed again and again in the disrespectful and authoritarian way that you speak to others who don't happen to agree with you.

Now begone. You have no power over me. And that's what bothers YOU.

Rocco:

Walker decided not to use liberal tactics and you try to spin it as advocating violence.

Totally unwarranted reference to "liberal tactics." Projection at its finest. It was Walker, the conservative, who was talking about trouble-makers. That's not a liberal tactic, as the generally peaceful demonstrations in Madison proved, much to your chagrin, no doubt, and those who were looking for an excuse to criticize them.

USN, information continues to come to light almost daily that confirms the authoritarian tendencies of Conservative leaders, does it not? Thanks for sharing.

John B, how true. I just caught the tail-end of a report last night on the analysis of the e-mails Scott Walker was compelled to release.

If I got it right, his e-mails were running heavily against him, until the very day he announced that they were running in his favor. On that day, there was a sudden influx of pro-Walker e-mails, mostly from out of the state.

If I can hunt up more, I'll try to post it here. So far, no luck, but I haven't been able to give it a great deal of attention.

JC -- Is this it, or at least something like it? This one doesn't mention the timing, but has the rest of what you say. I'd believe this source.

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=32818

The Center found that out-of-state emailers supported Walker 85% to 15%. The supportive emails came from at least 45 states and the District of Columbia, and four countries. Of the 1,493 emails on the bill where the sender's location was apparent, a third of Walker's support came from outside the state.

When the Center looked only at emails from Wisconsin, the margin was much slimmer, with 55% favoring his bill and 42% opposed. And 89% of the emails against Walker came from Wisconsinites.

Or wait. It's probably something more like this one:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110322/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_emails

Seeking a way to counter a growing protest movement, Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker cited his email, confidently declaring that most people writing his office had urged him to eliminate nearly all union rights for state workers.

But an Associated Press analysis of the emails shows that, for close to a week, messages in Walker's inbox were running roughly 2-to-1 against his plans. The tide did not turn in his favor until shortly after desperate Democrats fled the state to stop a vote they knew they would lose.

The AP analyzed more than 26,000 emails sent to Walker from the time he formally announced his plans until he first mentioned the emails in public — a span of seven days.

During that time, the overall tally ran 55 percent in support, 44 percent against. In the weeks since, Walker has continued to receive tens of thousands of emails on the issue.

Navy ~ Great post. The Wisconsin experience teaches us that this is exactly the approach democrats need to be taking. People are largely oblivious to what the actual effects of electing republicans might be -- probably since republican candidates -- for example in the 2010 gubernatorial campaigns -- do their darndest to hide their true agendas from the public. Putting things into stark terms like these will expose those agendas and make republicans defend what they're REALLY all about.

And when that happens, they mostly back peddle and run for cover. We see that out here, every day.

The GOP House will likely pass legislation that denies any family food stamps if one of the workers is on strike, thus taking food from children--these are families who work but cannot make enough money to be self sustaining. That's a by-product of 30 years GOP policy which resulted in declining wages for 98% of Americans while giving the wealth to 2%. The right can sink no lower because they're now below ground when it comes to compassion, caring for children, the disabled, the poor. The GOP truly are conservatives without conscience.

Jody:

The right can sink no lower because they're now below ground ...

Respectfully, disagree. It's a long way to China from here and they're working on the superhighway tunnel.

Jody:

Agreed and this coming from the party that claims to be worried about our children and grandchildren. Take food out of their mouths, deny them equal educational opportunities, the ability to make a living wage. Yeah, they are worried about our children and grandchildren. When pigs fly.

Ahh... Nothing beats a healthy dose of Friday Fear Mongering from USN and the Chortling Minions.

Why not any comments about the cut backs that Governor Brown in California passed? Maybe you should see what he cut? I guess those types of cuts are OK as long as it is a Democrat making the cuts.

Hi Navy,

A GREAT POST as always, you and our Progressive Friends are on top of issues and getting our message out there.

You know, as of late, I have come to view the Republican-Tea People in office as the mean old Mr. Potter in "It's a Wonderful Life," and the Democrats-Progressives as George Bailey. I really believe that the GOP is selling the country down the road and there is an undercurrent that wants to take our country way back, as far as civil rights and especially the rights of women to decide on their own health issues, while at the same time, keeping their corporate masters happy.

So, for this week I give the Mr. Potter a$$ H@le of the week award to Maine’s Governor Paul LePage who ordered a 36-foot Mural depicting the state’s labor history endorsing pro-labor icons, be removed from the lobby of the Department of Labor headquarters building in Augusta, Maine.

So Governor, in this act to please your corporate masters, you have earned the “Mr. Potter A$$ H@le of the week award.

Thanks USN. There are none so blind as those who will not see. The authoritarian nature of Conservative leaders is laid right out in their actions, their legislative proposals, and the means they use to enact those proposals, yet people deny it. Good of you to keep the reality in front of us.

Thanks for the kind words guys. The GOP/TP is on a very slippery slope with their current ideology. The people are getting wise to it now thanks in part to Wisconsin and other States as well. Some, even in their own party, are starting to rethink their position(s). Not because they believe they may be wrong but they fear they may very well loose the next election.

We have to keep pointing out the DRACONIAN agenda that we see everyday being played out across this country. They do it openly with arrogance slapping all of us in the face every day. They are telling us in a nutshell that they feel we do not count anymore. The only people they feel accountable to is Wall Street, Big Business and the Millionaires/Billionaires. The rest of us, not so much.

Jody -

The GOP House will likely pass legislation that denies any family food stamps if one of the workers is on strike, thus taking food from children--these are families who work but cannot make enough money to be self sustaining.

That's nothing new. Its the same as unemployment, if you quit your job they will do there best to reject your claim. If you go on strike that's your choice and that choice is taking income from your family and they will cut assistance.

Haven't posted in a very long time, but reading some very insightful political literature. Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism", is a powerful read for all of you devoted liberal and progressive posters. I implore all of you to read it , if you haven't already. I had to do little fact checking, if any, because most of the events and occurrences I have lived through and remember, some quite vividly,though I was not armed with much of the information that most of you and I now have access to.

Keep up the good work all of you true patriots and please read the book. It explains via narrative, timeline and extensive research and interviews, exactly what is happening now. Conclusion, prior to completion of the last 166 pages, impending, pervasive oligarchy through "Corporatism" via privatization.

We must remain vigilant and dedicated in our actions and goals for the future.

Hi Drive by,

You know how these righties are. They are so full of FAKE OUTRAGE and no matter what the President does, these Circus Clowns are waiting in the wings.

Citizens United happened after the 2008 election--it made corporations people, it allows unlimited campaign contributions without full disclosure. It isn't the amount of money corporations can give to campaigns that is of concern, it is the secrecy of those funds that should concern every citizen, right or left. In 2008, full disclosure and limited contributions was still the law regarding campaign financing. President Obama in a lengthy response to that question did NOT promise to take federal election money but indicated he would consider it and likely would if both candidates agreed--hardly an outright promise. You can't compare apples and oranges by linking 2008 to 2010 and Citizens United. Seems to me conservatives would be happy to realize that Candidate Obama not taking matching federal money meant those funds were left in the treasury--saving the taxpayers money and cutting government spending.

One more thing, as a voter when I see a campaign ad extolling the virtues of a candidate and his/her stand on an issue such as oil and gas exploration, I want to know who paid for it in big, bold letters and spoken loudly at the end. I think every voter regardless of party affiliation has a right to know how much money is given to a candidate and who is giving that money. I hear right and left demand transparency in government, well I also demand transparency in campaign financing.

Alan, of course it was fair. Union special interests were able to buy their candidates way into office just like the constitutions says they can. Or wait....

My Jody you're all over the place on this one. It's not the total money it's the secrecy? Is that your main argument? I know it's not the attempt to save taxpayers money. You're just throwing that one in for a laugh right?

Well I happen to agree with you on full disclosure but even without that, how are are the elections rigged? That was USNV's original point. If $1B is spent in advertising and it comes from an unknown source that does not make the election rigged. In 2008 many of the small contributions had no origin and therefore could not be checked to see if the donor was exceeding the maximum contribution. Did that make the election rigged, or maybe it was won by the better candidate with better ideas. If all it it took was money to win an election then Meg Whitman would be governor of California.

Also, if candidate wants to drill for oil or offer abortions on demand why do you care who is paying for it? Can't you make up your mind on the issue at hand or do you have to know the backers so that you make the "right" choice? You must have a hellish time in a Supermarket having to choose soap powder....sooo many choices, sooo much advertising. Which one is the right choice?

This is such a Red Herring of an issue.

Jody:

They never allow the truth to stop them from the BS. Also they had a chance to correct this when the "Disclosure Bill" was presented. They blocked it guaranteeing that money was going to determine elections whether it be foreign of domestic. NO disclosure is the problem, not giving the money. We have (had) a right to know who is funding the campaigns of these clowns (democrats and republicans alike). I want to know if the politician asking for my vote who is buttering his bread because I know he/she will be beholding to them and not me and my family if my ideology is different I have no way of knowing what this clown stands for.

This is why we see so much of the old "Bait and Switch". They tell us what the think we want to hear, get elected and do what their "Sugar Daddy's" tell them. The system is broken.

"I want to know if the politician asking for my vote who is buttering his bread because I know he/she will be beholding to them and not me and my family if my ideology is different I have no way of knowing what this clown stands for."

Must have sucked for you when you found out Obama was having his bread buttered by Goldman Sachs. He has been quite generous to them and to his Sugar Daddy at GE.

When will you guys realize one side is as bad as the other?

Jody - President Obama in a lengthy response to that question did NOT promise to take federal election money but indicated he would consider it and likely would if both candidates agreed--hardly an outright promise.

Jody,

Outright promise? You don't think this was under handed, at all? Not even possible? Because for me when I heard this, red flags came up.

Alan, NJ:

This is such a Red Herring of an issue.

It's not a red herring. If it's no big deal, then why does the Chamber of Commerce, for example, deliberately hide who their contributors are? What's the big deal about disclosing it?

What are all those companies ashamed of?

I think you know. If people know how the money they spend for goods and services is being used to push right-wing radical political agendas, they might just change how they spend their money.

It's the exact same reason why Scott Walker never mentioned during the gubernatorial campaign that he planned to take away all public sector collective bargaining rights.

Secrecy is important only when you've got something important to hide.

You say you're for full disclosure, but your entire post belies it. Disclosure is important in that it helps people decide the credibility of the speaker. Besides, how can a corporation claim first amendment rights in speech when it doesn't disclose itself as the speaker? What rights does it have to free speech if it refuses to take responsibility for the speech?

It comes down to this. We don't need authoritarians telling people what's good for them. Let people have the information they need to figure it out for themselves. If there's nothing to hide, then why not disclose?

In 2008 many of the small contributions had no origin and therefore could not be checked to see if the donor was exceeding the maximum contribution.

Show me the authority for this. Or don't you want to disclose it?

Show me the authority for this. Or don't you want to disclose it?

You say you're for full disclosure, but your entire post belies it.

For it. But its not a big issue to me as I assume all politicians are bought and paid for.

It's the exact same reason why Scott Walker never mentioned during the gubernatorial campaign that he planned to take away all public sector collective bargaining rights.

OMG A politician that didn't tell the whole truth to get elected. Never seen one of those before. Can't think of the number statements the president said as a candidate and changed when he got into office. I'm sure there was something about garnishing wages to pay for insurance or something like that.

You'll be telling me next "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here"

As usual the http:// removed the reference

www.newsweek.com/2008/10/03/obama-s-good-will-hunting.html

Alan, NJ --

On the topic of shock, because conservatives never admit the possibility that we liberals actually think for ourselves, you might be shocked to learn that I'm having some trouble continuing to support President Obama exactly for the reasons you state. It seems to me, at least, that he was not completely candid in his campaign promises. I have said several times out here that he may have lost my vote as early as May 15, 2009, for failing to fulfill his promises on health care reform, including his specific promise not to sign a health care reform bill without a public option in it. He never even worked for the public option.

I'm also against the mandate, which is a creature of the insurance companies, and not a socialist creation, in case you didn't know. And if you didn't know, I suggest you consult the decision in the Florida case, in which the government concedes that certain pieces of the bill relating to the insurance companies simply will not work without the mandates, which I suspect is why the severability provision was deliberately left out.

So you may be shocked to learn what I believe, but I won't be at all shocked about the gambling. I saw the movie. Several times.

I see we're back to defending the legalized bribery sanctioned by "Citizens United" again. That's OK, I'm happy to take that fight. The only thing that's really changed since 80% agreed on a bipartisan basis that the Supreme Court decision was wrong http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/17/AR2010021701151.html is that it's become clear who benefits. This decision was engineered by a crooked majority on the Supreme Court to allow the wealthy and the corporations they control to buy elections. This was "judicial activism" of the worst sort, overturning more than 100 years of settled law to benefit the wealthy elites. It's wrong. It will always be wrong.

p.s The article you linked was about possible fraud relating to illegal foreign campaign donations, not small donations exceeding individual limits. Do you have another link?

By the way, Citizens United opened the floodgates for undisclosed foreign campaign donations through international corporations that have headquarters here in the United States. How do you feel about that? Seems to me that the potential for abuse in that regard far outweighs the nickel-and-dime abuses mentioned in your article. Especially when conduits like the Chamber of Commerce don't have to disclose who the underlying donors are.

My solution has always been public campaign financing. Republicans have always resisted it, until President Obama came along and the tables were turned. Funny how that goes, sometimes.

@AM Good for you. Come over to the third party utopia. One where funding is from verifiable people who contribute $100 or less. Where the candidate is candid and will actually state what he means and means what he states.

I can only dream but until then I'll just comment on the bias I read here.

Where the candidate is candid and will actually state what he means and means what he states.

LoL If you can guarantee that, not only would that make you God, but I'd be a convert, assuming of course that what the candidate says is consistent with my own beliefs. I didn't support Walker as it was; I most assuredly would not have done so had he been candid.

But I'm completely with you on the subject of the donations. And with full disclosure.

LoL If you can guarantee that, not only would that make you God, but I'd be a convert

I can only dream.

On the $100 limit. I can only image the screams from the TV networks as they would be the biggest losers.

I think we ought to limit campaigning to nationally televised debates ONLY. No commercials, no buy your way in fund raisers, no special interests or corporations buying candidates, nothing else, just debates and the travel budget necessary to get candidates to them. Let people here what you plan to do rather than make us suffer through years of mudslinging ads that contain virtually no fact or information beyond why your opponent is a big fat lair. Imagine... Actually having substance to help make your decision in the voting booth... To dream the impossible dream...

Why is it only a dream? We need to demand full disclosure, and now!

it shouldn't be the impossible dream but transparency is apparently toxic to politicians.

I agree, too much money and too little transparency is poisoning our political process...and that applies regardlessof party.

Suzy - limiting to nationally televised debates would be great because then I only have to DVR a few shows instead of watching the debate. The commercials are a waste of time and money for me. I am pretty quick on the remote whenever political commercials from either side come on. Can't take them.

Anna Molly:

Kudos and thanks for a great presentation of the facts to end the week.

Thanks, Navy. I left you a little note, as well. You have laid it out exactly the way democrats need to lay it out.

Good Post, Anny Molly. I too saw that AP article that you've referenced. That is the quintissential example of 'buyer's remorse'. I think that many others are feeling it as well, but it has been articulated quite nicely in that article.

The takeaway of all of this - for the Dems who decided to 'teach President Obama a lesson' and did not vote, Gov. Walker - and those like him - is the result of your short-sightedness and laziness. I hope you are happy.

For the GOPers that are now remorseful of their vote - this is a result of your short-sightedness. It is amazing how the perception of 'Government spending too much' changes when what you hold near and dear is being cut.

We need to, as an electorate, definitely stay INFORMED. If nothing else, the 2010 Midterms showed us that as Americans, we have dropped the ball BIG time. It is not too late to 'fix' the problem in 2012.

Anna Molly, well done. Thanks for keeping us posted on WI politics; another reason why FR is a great place to spend some time--views and happenings from people across the country.

What Anna Molly failed to mention is Prosser's opponent in the Supreme Court election has outright stated she will be a liberal shill. So really, it's a horse a piece.

No question about the buyers remorse. The approval rating of our GOPTP Governor Terry Branstad has plummeted almost as badly as Scott Walkers as it becomes clear that the promises Conservative Republicans made to voters mean nothing in comparison to their no longer hidden agenda.

Bob1887910---Republicans electing 3 Latinos does not a voting bloc make.

You're right, Hispanics will become a bigger force in politics and they're not really into you guys.

The point of the census is to determine the number of legislators for both national and state governments. Counting undocumented to determine population does not equate to undocumented people voting. I would think in places like Texas, NM, AZ, they'd be happy they're counted as people (not voters) because that way they can send more republicans to their state Congress or Washington DC (illegals can't and don't vote).

Bob: The thread is about Libya, not thinkprogress crap. It's kinda in the real news.

Gee, Bob, I guess you decided to go off-topic too...

I think the problem with these voter ID laws is that they limit what ID is acceptable. Everyone has some form of ID, but maybe not the ID that the laws allow.

Andie 469:

You hit it square on the head, very good. There is a lot of valid ID that can be acceptable, to limit it ti just one is wrong and an additional expense that is not necessary, unless of course you want to disenfranchise some people, especially since they have been voting most of their lifetimes with different forms of ID. This is just another GOP/TP SCAM and we have exposed it. Just another assault on the Citizens of this country by a bunch of power hungry greedy thugs that feel they have the God given right to rule this country. Seems we have seen that ideology somewhere else last century. Have a great weekend.

C'mon TA, the existence of pink doesn't undermine the distinction between white and red. If you think about it for even a moment you'll realize that there can be a whole range of identifications that are reliable enough for use. What Conservatives are seeking to do is in fact the opposite of that--they're seeking to require a narrow enough form of voter ID that it effectively eliminates certain people from voting.

We should all think of how that changes the nature of our democracy when that becomes acceptable.

This is off what the topic is supposed to be - but you guys have to be kidding me. Not having to show an ID to vote invites criminal activity. You have to show ID to register - you should have to show the same type of ID when you vote. Imagine how things would have changed if you had to show your ID to vote. Nixon would have been POTUS in 1960 - both Kennedy's wouldn't have been the victim of assassination. We probably wouldn't have had the 2nd worst POTUS ever - Jimmy Carter. This is a silly argument - I have to take my son's birth certificate to baseball practice in about an hour so they have it on file in case a team protests the ages of the kids - and some of you don't think you need an ID to vote - You are nuts!

A great Conservative narrative bb3, apparently Democrats would never hold office without voter fraud...and no proof of ANY of it.

JB - Tho I am much to young to remember it - there has been a fair amount written as to how Mayor Daley found enough dead voters in Chicago that voted for Kennedy at the last moment that threw Illinois to Kennedy and therefore the election. While it wasn't obvious from my post I meant to point out that possibly Nixon wouldn't have had to resign - Vietnam might not have happened and Carter would probably never would have been the Dem nominee in 76. While Dems probably don't have the monopoly on voter fraud - they have close to it.

Steeler Fan:

Totally agree. President Obama has faced more issues in 2 years than Bush did in 8. Today it was announced that the economy is growing at 3.1% and the market has recovered from the world issues like Japan and they are back into the black for the year.

Not bad for a president that not only has to deal with confilct overseas but has to deal with a party that is he!! bent on destroying his Presidentcy and refuse to compromise at all.

Steeler Fan:

I couldn't agree with you more. Our President is doing a great job.

Me too, Steeler Fan. But as even our "liberal media" hosts pointed out above, "There’s going to be a lot of wasted effort chasing these brushfires and we’re all probably going to exert too much effort on them -- all for provocative copy." And I believe they referred to all of this as "cable catnip". Funny, but even my cats have evolved beyond the catnip stage - their favorite toy lately has been one of those laser pointer things. If this wasn't the end of a long week, I could probably come up with some sort of great analogy about how the media also runs around in circles trying to catch up with someone who has a laser focus and how they never quite seem to "get it"......

Steeler Fan-380417

Hey FR---here's a thought---maybe the White House isn't as concerned with image management as it is with issue management and actually doing the job.

I'm afraid what you just wrote is beyond the comprehension of most contemporary journalists. Apparently they think that a president is elected to be Image Manager in Chief. I think they miss the guy in the flight suit and the "Mission Accomplished" sign that diverted public attention from the impending disaster in Iraq. Now THAT was image management the corporate media could really appreciate.

JoAnne----glad to hear your kitties just say no to drugs; mine too. I have to get her one of those laser things and we'll pretend she is the media chasing their own agenda!

So true, Steeler Fan. The WH isn't concerned with image management, just getting the job done. If it was about image, President Obama would have made the announcement Hillary Clinton made last night.

I keep thinking that the only people confused about the Libya UN Resolution are those who are making comments and providing critique and in the process they merely confuse everyone else. This morning David Gregory, in the same sentence, said the President hasn't "clearly defined" the goal but we know what the "clear goal" is. Honestly, if the goal hasn't been clearly defined then how does Gregory know we have a clear goal. After that statement, I changed channels so maybe Gregory clarified it.

JoAnne, PA. That last line was perfect and pretty much summed up the President's laser focuse ability and the laser-chasers.

Strangely, most places already ask for proof of residence and sometimes a photo. The new laws are like old property laws -- you have to have a STATE ISSUED (not university, not workplace) PICTURE ID with your current address. This works fine if you own a home and live in the same place for several years. It is not good if you are a renter (more likely to change residences) or a student (you would be forced to return "home" during the semester). It will INCREASE the amount of bureacracy needed (so no "less government" here), will not change anything about voter fraud related to the machinery used for voting and tabulation, and ultimately would not prevent anyone who had more than one residence from voting fraudulently anyway if they so desired (a person with two homes could get ID for each). There is a simple voter eligibility requirement: to be 18, a citizen, and to comply with the registration laws of the state you are voting in.

Kate:

Kudos, great points. You have a great weekend and keep posting, get the word out.

Kate, I couldn't have said it better. This isn't about eliminating voter fraud, a virtually nonexistent issue anyway because adequate safeguards are in place already. It's about contolling WHO votes.

Apparently conservatives continue to ignore which party really piled up the debt: Reagan, 189%; Bush 41, 55%; Clinton, 39%; Bush 43, 89%. Yeah, sure, blame the democrats and blame President Obama and hope no one remembers who really caused this crisis.

Keep adding to the problem. That will solve the problem. The liberal solution. Mommy, he started it! Just like little kids, you liberals are.

Jody:

They just keep on lying about the past. They take no responsibility at all for all the damage they have done to this country and then they lie again during their campaign promises trying to get a second bite of he apple to destroy what they missed the frist time around. Now there is a plan for ya. Yeah, when he!! freezes over The Buffalo Bills win a Super Bowl and the Buffalo Sabers win the Stanley Cup. (I was born, raised and educated in Buffalo, NY)

Navy, prove it. Don't post what you can't prove. Remember you own words to everyone else.

Jim,

the classic statement about the young being liberal is so true; but the trouble with today's liberals is that they never have grown up. They are helpless dependents; the Nanny State is their "Daddy"; most helplessly rely on a government check in one form or another....and they mindlessly hero-worship the current President, like a 13 yr old girl does a rock star.

Jim, you are among at least 3 folks who have figured this guy out. This so called Navy Vet is a fraud. Just loves playing the victim. He just copies and pastes opinions and mis-information from extreme liberal sources. Usually he calls people he doesn't agree with communists or a fascist. I don't even think he knows what either of those terms mean. His type have gone through life always concerned with what someone has achieved instead of accomplishing something. Never their fault for their lot in life, someone else's fault. Somebody robbed them. Guess what the robber is in the mirror. He is a fraud.

Bob the trouble with your analogy is that is it soo untrue!!!! Most "red" states collect more from the federal government than they pay in, while most "blue" states pay in more than they collect.

Guess the three muskateers prefer another U.S. unilateral war while still in two others. Figures, why let the international community lead this middle east effort, absorb a lot of the cost when the U.S. can just take care of it and pay for the whole thing. Macho, macho men.

Jody:

Yep, the impotent little pec**r heads are out today. They cannot defend their DRACONIAN and Failed European ideology of the 30's and 40's so they resort to the only thing they have. Personal attacks. Go ahead go for it. Everytime they do they just prove my point.

Navy (cut and paste man) , What do you call your first sentence. You hypocrite.

Yep, the impotent little pec**r heads are out today. They cannot defend their DRACONIAN and Failed European ideology of the 30's and 40's

US navy failed european ideology would that be socialism because Europe is moving to a capitalist society. And President Obama and his party are trying to move America in the direction Europe is so desperate to get away from.

This is no hand off to NATO - 0bama proved that he was no leader and in less than a week NATO took control over so that someone competent would be running the show. NATO got rid of 0bama in a week - we have to wait until Jan 20, 2013.

black_belt

I did not know you were part of the National Security team. You seem to have more information than the President , The Secretary of State, the entire UN and NATO.

I suppose if Beck says so it is so. Also you must worship Newt.

Great comment, Hunter from W, Virginia. We've hard many of those tweeters say this month we should just bomb first and ask questions later. Finally, a rational, thinking, listening and pragmatic President who prefers to get it right the first time.

That poll that is being bandied about said something similar. While the POTUS got 17% in the "Strong and Decisive" column, he also got another 48% from those who thinks he takes his time and consults.

Hunter, Jody and JC:

I agree. The last thing we need is another knee jerking President. I will take one that thinks for himself and is not afraid to make the hard decision knowing that he will take a hit for it. I thought that was a good thing for being the leader of the country. The GOP/TP have a lot of hot air but they could not lead themselves out of an open closet. They have provided no leadership. The only thing they do is say NO, NO, and he!! NO, over and over again and they call that leadership. I call it impotent little whinners that have not a clue on what real leadship is.

Andie 469

You are corect, but she knows that.

Larry, would you care to provide proof that the current systems in those states have allowed voter fraud. How many voter fraud cases have been prosecuted? Saying it exists doesn't make it true.

You really believe there has not been voter fraud? You really are brain washed.

It is just another of the Republican Franchise pieces of "Suggested Legislation", this "voter fraud" crap, much like the "Suggested Legislation" on abortion restrictions, public-sector union-busting, etc. It comes in the mail all pre-written for state-legislatures, along with suggested "talking points". It saves the local Republicans a lot of work in having to write their own.

Same thing in Iowa with the Voter ID requirement legislation proposed in the House. It is nothing more than a transparent attempt to make it more difficult to vote for certain groups of individual citizens who tend to vote Democrat, much like the legislation that seeks to disenfranchise student-citizens in New Hamshire, I think it was.

Tony, cite significant examples. And, I do mean significant, both in number and definition.

If you want to believe that there is zero voter fraud, then believe it. I am not going defend a fact that is too easy to validate. You are welcome to believe what you want. Man, I bet you believe in the Easter Bunny.

I never said one way or another, Tony. But, if you don't want to back up your memes, maybe you shouldn't post them.

That is just a play on words and you know it. If you want to discuss an issue or give an opinoin, great. I am not into the devils advocate thing you seem to want to play. Tell that story about you believing there is no voter fraud to someone who will believe you or who wants to play a silly game.

Tony, you brought it up! Remember? Your post is right up there for everyone to see!

I merely asked you for something besides you just saying so that would indicate some validity in your position. If "because I said so" is your "proof", so be it.

But, I suggest you refrain from getting all pissy when someone calls you on it; you're going to get a lot of that using the "because I said so" gambit.

Neither does demanding proof from someone else to prove you wrong constitute an "argument". Only AM radio talkers get away with that sort of thing, because their format doesn't include actual debate, argument, or even conversation. They just spew and move on.

I'm giving you good advice, here: If you can't back up your memes, you maybe shouldn't post them in this sort of environment; there are others here and they are allowed to ask questions.

I am confused as to why anyone would not support measures to ensure there is no possibility of voter fraud unless you like those loopholes. I don't support any laws that would deny voter's rights but we all know without quoting specific cases that fraud does exist unless you are incredibly naive.

OK show us the proof that we have a voter fraud issue in this country. Show us where you got the facts that support you allegations that voter fraud is running amok in this country. That will settle it. Just show us. I await your proof of what you say.

Larry, you will have to excuse Navy and the rest of the libs posting here. They have no common sense, the koolaid is making it a struggle for them to copy and paste, and Odumbo hasn't been much of a leader and told them what to think today.

Yeah, ksw, we all know many, many things "without quoting specific cases": That is what urban legends are made of, after all.

But, "without quoting specific cases", what we don't know is if there is a problem at all, or if this theoretical problem is significant enough to run the risk of employing legislation that would tend to make it harder for certain groups of people to vote.

My state has a lot of voter's who vote by mail using absentee ballots, for instance: Is there enough "voter fraud" to eliminate that practice, since it is impossible to show an ID when voting that way?

How about New Hampshire, I think it was, which proposes to disallow students voting in the districts in which they reside? Is their significant "voter fraud" to justify disenfranchising them unless they return to their "permanent" address" district to vote?

Ah, the appeal to common sense! It's common sense among children that Santa Claus exists, but that doesn't make it so. For lack of any actual proof of voter fraud this can at best be thought of as a solution in search of a problem. At that point it makes sense to look for the underlying motivation when people are working THIS HARD to change something that works.

This isn't about voter fraud because our existing processes work fine. Our new GOPTP Iowa Secretary of State is pushing for a similar measure. There's so little need for it that all 99 county auditors---INCLUDING REPUBLICANS believe this is unnecessary.

So JC you are ok with a little voter fraud? What is your limit on what is "enough" to justify? Still don't see what the problem with expecting valid identification for voting. But if you insist on specific instances here you go. John B, this isn't Santa Claus.

http://www.thepilot.com/news/2011/mar/25/now-s-some-real-voter-fraud/

http://www.bemidjipioneer.com/event/article/id/100026998/group/Opinion/

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-ice-arrests-grayslake-filipino-woman-on-voter-fraud-20110317,0,136518.story?track=rss

http://www.alamogordonews.com/ci_17622740

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/04/us/04indiana.html

jc

Don't know if this fits your definition but here is one case.

http://www.ice.gov/news/releases/1103/110317lakecounty.htm

And isn't 1 case 1 case to many?

This woman was caught after voting 9 times. I wonder how many more are out there voting?

Don't forget the Border patrol only catches about 15%

Well, ksw, you posted five instances, there. The first was organized by a candidate, which your own link referred to as "rare" and may not, in fact, be addressed by Voter ID legislation. Another involved a politician defrauding voters with regard to his residency, which certainly would not be solved by restricting voters' access to the voting booth.

Another involved a New Mexico official who "suspects" voter fraud, but didn't really prove it as near as I can tell.

None of them appeared to be of much significance when the numbers are considered. None of them appeared to claim that the outcome of an election was affected. Most of them seemed to indicate that any alleged perpetrators were caught by the existing systems, if there were, indeed, any perpetrators to begin with.

So, is this the pressing need you want to rely on to justify making it more difficult for certain groups of citizens to exercise their right to vote?

LMAO!

So JC I guess you are saying a little voter fraud is acceptable? Why are you so afraid of rules?

Gee, why do you keep trying to state my position for me? Trying to make it into something you would prefer to talk about?

The burden of proof is yours, and I'm thinking you failed, miserably, to meet it.

BTW, just repeatedly failing to meet your burden isn't the same as "proving" anything; rather the opposite.

And, I know: Listening to Rush just doesn't prepare you for how to interact in the real world, does it? In his world, he never gets asked to actually prove anything.

JC here is a handy little website that you can look up by state voter information including fraud.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Vote_fraud_in_Missouri

I happened to look at Missouri but checked out a few other states and every single state I checked had instances of voter fraud.\

For the record JC I would never listen to Beck, Maddow or Limbaugh and I am not a Republican.

No, slodon, I don't think that one yet-to-be-proven case of a lady claiming to be something she is not justifies legislation that runs the risk of making it difficult for other groups of voters to exercise their rights.

In the case you cited, the issue, it seems to me, is whether she was properly identified when she registered to vote, for instance, which would probably not be helped by requiring her to produce an ID at the voting booth. If anything, it may require tightening the ID requirement to register, and even then it is still just one yet-to-be-proven case out of how many registrations?

He (Obama) lies! Hand Off??? in Shiria law do they chop off the hand for lies? I thought it was for stealing, but then he steals our freedoms and money and futures from our children and grandchildren.

Well, ksw, there you go again: Your very first example cites "alleged" fraud which probably wouldn't be helped by requiring an ID at the booth, since it was perpetrated by making certain ineligible voters eligible.

As I said, repeated failures is not the same as "proof".

The question here is whether or not there exists significant actual voter fraud to justify legislation which may make it more difficult for certain groups of citizens to exercise their right to vote.

So far, I have seen nothing to indicate that there is.

Uh, old-pilot, are you lost?

JC I am sure you read every single states past voter fraud and can validly claim that none of them would be helped with requiring valid identification...... I don't want to deny anyone their rights to vote but as an example of what I read dead people voting, people have more than one social security number voting, Acorn voter registration fraud, it goes on and on and on. I guess you are ok with all of these. Go ahead with your deflect, deflect, deflect excuses...

No deflection there ksw, it's a straightforward claim by JC that actual voter fraud doesn't exist in sufficient numbers to justify restrictions on people who currently CAN vote. Conservatives love to talk about ACORN, but there is NO known case of someone fraudulently voting based on an ACORN false registration. It just isn't there. Not only were those registration cards disposed of before actually being entered on the rolls, but ACORN actually POINTED OUT to the authorities which ones they believed to be suspect.

And, again, ksw, don't mistake your failure to meet your burden of proof with some position you merely want to ascribe to me.

Man, talk about "deflection"; dude, I couldn't carry your shoes if that were the topic.

JC LOL I knew you didn't read any of the actual examples on the site I provided you............. Do you really want me to cut and paste every article (and read them to you) like most of the posters do on this blog? I actually thought you might have the initiative to go read them for yourself.

Clearly, ksw, I did read them.

It is how I knew that you failed miserably, again, to meet your burden of proof.

What this post of yours indicates, as a matter of fact, is that you didn't read your links, or else presumably you would have known that you failed again, too.

Oh, and, btw, this was without a doubt your lamest response in this thread, and that is saying something.

Ok JC we will just have to agree to disagree. I think you failed because you are ok with a little voter fraud (although you never answered how much was ok?) You think I failed because I am not ok with any voter fraud and think there needs to be tighter controls.

Actually, I don't believe you ever once produced an example of actual voter fraud. But, that is still not the issue under discussion, so who cares?

Being willfully ignoRANT of the issue has its uses, in your case.

What JC said.

Perfectly described. If only a Bob Ray sort of Republican could survive in today's party.

They can't think for themelves. They mock the very group that is tying to bring fiscal responsibiity to Washington before it is too late, which will really save all the programs. Their view is that the tea party is out to eliminate those programs that benefit the poor and people in need of help. The opposite is true, but they will never see it. If this nation does not stop the wastefull spending and reduce the size of government we are in for real cuts. We are on a path of financial ruin. You see the reaction from the left when a governor or a congressman says enough is enough. They make death threats. They become like little children, mommy, he started it, it is not my fault. When the money runs out, you will really see the crying.

I am a Republican but I was disenchanted by Iraq, in disagreement with government surveillance expansion, disgusted by Abu Ghraib, and confused by the lack of clarity in foreign policy. Yet, as time goes on, nothing has changed. We now have wars in 4 Arab countries (counting Pakistan), government powers to spy on Americans have been expanded under Obama, American soldiers have committed atrocities similar to Abu Ghraib but in Afghanistan, Gitmo is still open, and there is lack of clarity in foreign policy.

Steven Rennie - on these points you have articulated, we do not have any disagreement. I think it is a mistake to be 'at war' with 4 Arab Countries. Unfortunately, you can thank President Bush for opening these doors that are very difficult to close. Notice that President Bush is long gone from the scene and the problem(s) persist.

As far as the overreach of power(s) is concerned, you again have no argument from me. However, again, the door was opened by President Bush, and it is political suicide to close that door if it gives you a political advantage. Yes, I am saying that the Patriot Act gives the President - no matter ehich party he/she is from - a political advantage. It will be up to Congress - and the people pushing Congress, to close that door.

I am not holding my breath.

Closing Gitmo is more difficult because the Congress, as a body, is spineless. They do not want to be seen as the one(s) who 'caved' against the 'enemies' of America. They are very content to let those 'enemy combatants' sit there on that rock in Cuba, even if it violates every due process tenet that America holds dear. it is short-sighted and foolish to think that you will have any credibility to dictate 'law and order' when American doesn't even follow their own laws.

Imagine that.

Steven Rennie

"Regardless of__________— hypocrisy, legitimate debate and scrutiny should be held and the President owes the American people clear answers and a clear policy"

Excellent post, voted! As with this issue and the others we try to have on this blog it would be nice to have a debate and not just an insult match. People should post or defend their thoughts, even if an agreement can't be made at least one can try to understand where the other side is coming from.

Pietro:

I agree 100% and I voted.

Prove it. If you can't back it up. don't post it. See how silly and foolish you sound when you keep using that to dispute facts.

Tony, just because you can't back up what you say, don't blame others for your shortcomings.

You ain't Rush, and this ain't one-way AM radio.

So JC I am waiting for your response to my post above that there is no "voter fraud".

Uh, I already responded to your little droppings, ksw, and I never said "voter fraud" didn't exist.

Other than that, you got everything just right.