Gov.Walker won the ‘battle’ by employing every under-handed deceitful tactic he could find, however, it now appears he may owe a refund to the Koch Brothers after all!

MADISON, Wis. — A Wisconsin judge has issued a temporary restraining order blocking the state's new and contentious collective bargaining law from taking effect.

Dane County Judge Maryann Sumi (SOO'-mee) issued the order Friday to temporarily block the law as District Attorney Ismael Ozanne, a Democrat, had requested.

Ozanne filed a lawsuit contending that a legislative committee that broke a stalemate that had kept the law in limbo for weeks met without the 24-hour notice required by Wisconsin's open meetings law. The Republican-controlled Legislature passed the measure and Gov. Scott Walker signed it last week.

A spokesman for Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald declined to comment, citing the legal fight. Messages left for comment with Walker's spokesmen, as well as Democratic legislative leaders, were not immediately returned.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/18/wisconsin-union-law-lawsuit_n_837580.html

Do NOT allow these Governors to balance their budgets on the backs of the middle class!

And isn't fun to listen to dorks like Hannity continuously complain about 'outsiders' beign bussed in for those protests, but never goes anywhere near the 'outside' money that was poured in that helped the Governor get elected in the first place, so he could pull this fast one in the first place.

Fesity :

How true. Let's see if they let the democrats vote and if their vote counts. Lets see how the GOP Senators respond now that they are in fact facing recalls and the response they got at the last vote. Can we get three. We know we had one and a few hanging.

SickOfTheBickering

"There you go with your grand conspiracy theories again!"

I'd like to provide you with some check images, but- using your logic, I have to go now, and try to produce those ticket stubs from the busses Hannity says the 'outsiders' came in on......

"With all the energy you libbies put into the consipracy theories you would think that somewhere... somehow... someone would come up with some tangible evidence..."

*ring-ring*... "Hello, Scott? Hi guy. Say, it's your pal Charles Koch here, say, here's what I was thinking......"

Oh sick, get over yourself. Just like a GOP, find a way to skirt the law and due process. Oh I forgot, the Wisconsin governor wants to implement whatever changes he wants without a vote. Just sign and drive. Hail to the king Dumba$$.

Notice how many people IMMEDIATELY show up to attack the teachers, road workers, records clerks, public health workers, and others who are EXACTLY like our own neighbors, friends, coworkers, and family. How is attacking people LIKE US not attacking US. The war against the middle class is personal folks. How much MORE money has to be diverted from US to the wealthy elites before they're happy? To steal the answer of John D. Rockefeller, asked how much more he needed when he was already the wealthiest man on Earth--"Just a little bit more."

The taxpayers are just the hosts that the Unions feed off of. Of course, it is the Liberals/Unions dream that the Courts will discard any and all laws that they don't like. And of course they'll have the Courts raise the taxes on the taxpayers to support the infinite number of demands of the Union.

John B. Yes, I noticed that--they certainly do hate their children's teachers, their neighbors and the snow plow driver who cleared the streets and roads so they could go to work this winter. They're getting nastier as the minutes tick by.

You said Forbes and then you go and paste BS from MotherJones and ThinkProgress........

Go sit back down.....

I'm hoping that the 14 Wisconsin Senators get out of the state quickly. We don't want to make this easy for Walker.

Feisty... again... you libbies are such hypocrites! PAC's operate on BOTH sides of the house! I happen to work for a coal company myself... not Koch Energy... but believe me there are PAC's out there both in support and against the interests of coal. Of course... those against are ok with you aren't they? HYPOCRITES!

WOW...just WOW! *shakes head*

If you weren’t in Jerusalem do you not believe Christ was born?
If you weren’t at Pearl Harbor do you not believe the Japanese attacked?

No I did not wittiness the check being passed from the Koch Brothers, Carl Rove, but if you have one eye and half cents, you can FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!

Hmm, seems ITM is displaying his reading comprehension problem, again. The source for the Mother Jones article for those statements were from Forbes. (Feisty! You are quick, girl! You were on this before me! Good job.)

Notice how the righties ask for proof and when they are presented with it, they immediately attack the messenger? Or they then change their argument, just like SOB (gotta LOVE that moniker, just like the TEA Party calling themselves teabaggers. LMAO!).

Classic.

hey msnbc, little behind on reporting this. Rush has been talking about it for almost 2 hours before you crack the story. hmmmmm?!?

the judge sumi(sp) has already been determined to be an extreme activist, THIS WILL NOT hold up. she actually ruled earlier that the children were NOT being harmed by the teachers going AWOL on their classes in order to protest, REALLY??? in FACT it will probably BACKFIRE on those COWARD 14 dems.

no news here, just dems continueing to embarras themselves!

SickOfTheBickering

John-351853... you are a fool! the Wis. Gov. followed the letter of the law. You lunatics somehow seem to forget that there would have been a vote had all the democrats not run and hid in Illinois... (COWARDS!)

DBO... nice try... but again... PROVE IT!

On the contrary, it's you whose not getting it; SickOfTheBickering

The stay meant that a joint Assembly-Senate conference committee met without providing the required 24 hours' notice, and that notice of the meeting did not give the public enough information about what would be discussed.

Also that space for the meeting, the Senate Parlor, was not large enough to accommodate members of the public and that people who wanted to attend the meeting were barred from entering the Capitol, also in violation of state law.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_19b9492e-500b-11e0-911b-001cc4c03286.html

It was called the" opening meeting law" violation the Koch Suckers violated. That's why the runaways came back. They knew they had the governor by the b@lls.

See?

JoAnnaSmith - Just who do you propose do the work of providing services to the people of Wisconsin. As I recall everytime there's a government shutdown, people scream and yell because they don't have the services they demand and are expecting. You see to be under the misinterpretation that government services come free. Quite frankly I don't think you could get through you day without relying on public workers in one way or the other. I guess you just need to find yourself a deserted island, make yourself the queen, and then go fend for yourself.

If you don't like the legal provisions that allowed the state representatives to stall that unfortunate piece of fascist legislation, Spanky, go change it.

As I recall everytime there's a government shutdown, people scream and yell

You can speak for yourself on that one hon. But leave the strawman arguments to Anna Molly, she's the local champ of them.

the judge sumi(sp) has already been determined to be an extreme activist,

Oh well, if RUSH said it....

Can anyone give me a link regarding the Koch Brothers using the Tea Party Movement as a front. I have gone on plenty website but get conflicting information.

Jack313

"If you don't like the legal provisions that allowed the state representatives to stall that unfortunate piece of fascist legislation, Spanky, go change it"

And if you don't agree with the "fascist" legislation that was legally passed by the legislators placed in power by the tax payers of WI...then....that's just to bad. How do you like it having it stuffed down your throat?

John B,

i gave you a fact, regarless of who reported it. WHY don't you take a shot at the FACT instead of just hacking on half of what i said; or Rush.

the fact that the qoute the you clip and pasted actually ends with a comma, means YOU are avoiding the FACTS.

you got ANYTHING???

A very interesting bit of journalism on where this perfect storm of union busting conservative legislation is coming from. Thank you to Michael Pollan for the link:

http://scholarcitizen.williamcronon.net/2011/03/15/alec/

ARGGHH! All these lazy and greedy teachers make me mad! If they were real job creators wouldn't they have billions like the Koch Brothers? I say we privatize all these money pits called schools and let the Free Market decide which children get a decent education (or proper nutrition for that matter).

<<sarcasm alert>>

thetotas

Just type into google, Koch Brothers using the Tea Party Movement.

Jon Stewart on The Daily Show last night had a particularly good piece on teachers and teachers' salaries. Worth a look on the show's web site.

David, you posted no facts. You posted an unsupported opinion. You're free to prove this judge is an "extreme activist" if you wish, but without some supporting documentation that can be validated through another source all you've done is make a claim.

Diane, this http://scholarcitizen.williamcronon.net/2011/03/15/alec/ is an OUTSTANDING piece of work. I'll study it and all the embedded links. I hope you're not troubled if I hang onto it for future use.

John, be my guest. I've shared it with several other moderate thinkers since it showed up on my Facebook page yesterday. I associate Michael Pollan with food issues, so I found it interesting for him to share this!

Anyone who thinks teachers are lazy has never been a teacher and doesn't have a clue. I taught one semester teaching 4 one hour courses at a tech school. I put in as much hours if not more than I do as a software engineer. That job paid only %50 what I earn. Yeah you 'apparantly' get time off, but that time off you're still working prepping for classes, cleaning things up from previous classes and keeping your skills fresh by going to more classes...on your own dime.

Everyone get crazy, again. You want balanced budgets but don't want to do what is need to get them. You blame others for your own situation and want others to fix it. You want to raise taxes on everyone but yourselves. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Partisan judges have ended that.

And why does Feisty only get collapsed threads instead of being banned for a day or more? The answer is partisan, MSNBC partisan. If you are an extreme leftist you get a pass.

ceo-722851,

"And if you don't agree with the "fascist" legislation that was legally passed by the legislators placed in power by the tax payers of WI...then....that's just to bad. How do you like it having it stuffed down your throat?"

The jury's still out on the legality of it, "ceo," unlike the passage of the health care law. It was flat-out unconstitutional the chicken*%$! way they passed it, in the dead of night with 30 seconds' notice, and then they ran for the hills to hide away like children. And what they passed had nothing to do with balancing the budget Walker wrecked. But this is the only way these little fascists can get their dirty deeds done, after all. For now.

The one point thing I would disagree with David Sorota's article below is that he seems to think that just the Republicans are "Mad Scientists" cutting vital agencies and services and seeking to do away with all health, safety and labor laws. In fact the Democrats have done a lot of this kind of thing to.

Sirota: Mad scientists in lab of democracy

By David Sirota

Creators Syndicate

POSTED: 03/19/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT

Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis once said that states are the "laboratories of democracy." Oft repeated over time, the aphorism has helped impart legitimacy to the rough and tumble of state lawmaking. We've heard "laboratory" and we've imagined staid scientists in white coats rigorously testing forward-thinking theories of societal advancement.

It's certainly a reassuring picture — but there is a darker side of the metaphor. States are indeed laboratories. The problem is that today, those laboratories are increasingly run by mad scientists.

We're not talking about the usual Dr. Frankensteins trying to bring alive new corporate giveaways through harebrained cuts to social services (though there are those, too). We're talking about true legislative sadists looking to go medieval on America. Behold just six of the most telling examples:

• The Anti-Life Pro-Life Act: After anti-abortion Republicans in Congress tried to narrow the legal definition of rape, Nebraska Republican State Sen. Mark Christensen took the assault on women's rights one step further with a bill to legitimize the murder of abortion providers by classifying such homicides as "justified."

• The Let Them Eat Corporate Tax Cuts Act: As poverty rates and hunger have risen, so, too, have corporate profits. The Georgia legislature's response? Intensify the inequity with a bill to create a regressive sales tax on food that would then finance a brand new corporate tax cut.

• The Demoralize the Workforce Act: Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker didn't just threaten to deploy the National Guard against state workers unless they accept big pay and pension cuts. Apparently, that was too Kent State and not enough Ludlow Massacre for him. So he pressed to statutorily bar those workers from ever again collectively bargaining.

• The Child Labor Act: Missouri State Sen. Jane Cunningham's proposal to eliminate child labor laws would allow corporations to employ any kid under 14 and would terminate restrictions on the number of hours that kid can be forced to work. The legislation is proof that when Tea Party ideologues refer to "the '50s," some of them aren't referring to the 1950s — they are referring to the 1850s.

• The Obesity and Deficit Encouragement Act: Colorado exemplifies America's childhood obesity epidemic and its budget crisis. The state's childhood obesity rate grew at the second-fastest rate in the country, and its $1.2 billion budget gap is threatening the state's already underfinanced schools. Yet, despite the U.S. Department of Agriculture showing that higher soda taxes would drive down obesity, and despite such a levy raising much-needed public revenues, Colorado's newly Republican House is pushing legislation to create a special budget-busting sales tax exemption exclusively for soda.

• The Endorsing Your Own Demise Act: Between trying to legalize hunting with hand-thrown spears and pressing to eliminate education requirements for those seeking the office of state superintendent of schools, Montana's Republican lawmakers are also considering legislation to officially endorse catastrophic global climate change. That's right, in the face of a Harvard study showing that climate change could destroy Montana's water supplies, agriculture industries and forests, State Rep. Joe Read's bill would declare that "global warming is beneficial to the welfare and business climate of Montana."

If you don't live in one of these states, it's easy to tell yourself that these bills don't affect you. But history suggests that what happens in one "laboratory" is quite often replicated in others — and ultimately, in the nation's capital. That's why we should all hope saner minds cut short these experiments before they get even more out of control.

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_17646986

History will not look well upon this time when the Republican Party mainstreamed crazy.

Jack 313

"The jury's still out on the legality of it, "ceo," unlike the passage of the health care law."

Oh really....I guess somebody had better inform the two federal judges in Virginia and Florida... that they got it wrong when they recently ruled against the constitutionality of Obamacare. Not to mention the fact that the WI judge issued her restraining order based on the process used to write the legislation, not the legislation itself. You're on thin ice here Jack.

do you ever notice that when a republican gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar their only reply is the Democrats do it too. but if the Democrats get caught with their hands in the cookie jar then it is only the Democrats that do these things. oh what dam hypocrites the republicans are . I will tell you one thing any one that calls a teacher lazy is a dam fool and don't no what they are talking about . I am not a teacher but one time I was in charge of the 5 grade class at this school for one day during and emergency and if that was anything like any other day the teacher is way under paid . these children like to have to run me crazy . I was the happiest person on earth when the end of the day came . you people that want to call the teachers lazy or over paid need to walk a mile in their shoes . I wish that every member of the republican congress that wants to cut the salaries of teachers needs to try on the teachers shoes.

anybody that says that unions are the problem don't no any thing about unions. all a union does is to make sure the employee is treated fairly. the employees are the union . what the union does it gives the employee the right to speak out without the fear of getting fired. also it gives the employee the right to negociate his or her wages and working conditions without being told if you don't like leave. the republicans like to tell people this . I have worked with and without a union and it is so much better with one . I had a super visor to tell me one time that when I started to work at that place that I agreed to work for what they paid But I reminded him of the place in the Bible where the rich man worked shifts of people and each person worked for different wages on each shift and the Bible said that the wages would not follow the person thru the night . which I considered to mean you had the right to ask for more pay at another time . The union is a good thing if the boss will work with and not against. but to many times

what about the 2 that rule that for the healthcare law don't they count ?you republicans only hear the ones that rule in your favor . plus there were 12 other federals Judges that refused to even hear the lawsuit called it a waist 0f time . but you republicans don't hear the ones that are against you . just the ones that are in agreement with you . you take the law the says that a marriage is between a man and a woman . the justice department says they no longer going to defend it in court,Mr Gingrich says what if a republican President decides not to defend (row versus wade)there is one big difference and that is the law row versus wade went thru the SUPREME COURT and the marriage law didn't

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community "Officials at Georgia-Pacific said the company is laying off 158 workers at its Day Street plant because out-of-date equipment at the facility is being replaced with newer, more-efficient equipment."

I'm not sure why you have a problem with that. Finding a better/cheaper way of doing things has been what has elevated us from living in caves and digging roots to eat - it's called PROGRESS. If we don't do it, our foreign competitors will, and we lose even more jobs.

PS - Your comment was apparently 'collapsed' because of that last gratuitous SOB comment, which was unnecessary and detracted from your otherwise perfectly legitimate viewpoint (although we seldom agree on viewpoints). I do have a question though - How do you always seem to manage to be among the first to make comments on First Read, usually THE first?

It seems obvious that this country was better off when we had more unions. They act as a counter to the one sided greed of big corporations. Also they fought against the treaties our government made to protect outsourcing.

Germany is heavily unionised and they have labor represented on their public owned corporate boards; As a result, they have better wages, better benefits, total health care and a higher standard of living than the US. Also they do not have our obscene wage gap. Our public owned corporations do what they please and propagandize about over regulation.

When the CEO of Disney made 600 million in salary and God knows what in bonuses he had children working in Haiti for 12 cents an hour. Why don't we force our public corporations to pay our minimum wage wherever they go. That would bring back millions of jobs. Also why not limit top executive pay to 30 times that of the average employee.

The big problem is that banks, wall street and big corporations run our country and they love slave labor. Also, they own our government and media. If we don't come together against this insane one sided greed we will be pushed into depression and chaos.

All good points Frank, and it also bears mentioning that Germany was one of those industrialized countries that did better than the USA during the Great Recession. Their economy was fundamentally more sound because they didn't engage in the widespread, ill-advised, extreme level of deregulation that we did.

For one thing, those that are against public unions, are not against teachers and middle class employees....they are against the UNIONS that do nothing but suck up dues and cost the taxpayers and teachers extra money. The reason the unions are protesting this law so vociferously is that it makes union membership voluntary...that the dues aren't automatically taken out of the teachers paycheck. They know that a lot of teachers will choose to not participate, and the unions will lose their funding.

That is a good thing

John-351853

Oh sick, get over yourself. Just like a GOP, find a way to skirt the law and due process. Oh I forgot, the Wisconsin governor wants to implement whatever changes he wants without a vote. Just sign and drive

This isn't solely the GOP that uses this tactic. Pushing Obamacare through under a reconciliation bill and claiming that the taxes are not taxes but fees was a huge stretch of parlimentary process the democrats used a year ago. This law would have passed if the democratic senators did their job and stayed to vote...to say that Walker wants to implement changes without a vote is an outright lie....all he wanted was a vote. The democrats refused to do what they were elected to do and actually VOTE.

Thanks for admitting that the point is union-busting...Conservatives have been slow to admit that.

Your insistence that teachers unions do "nothing" isn't borne out by the facts, btw. If you compare this map of teacher unionization rates http://teachersunionexposed.com/state.cfm to this list of teacher pay http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state you'll see a really strong correllation between pay and union status. There's also a very strong correllation between these states and those who have substandard schools.

This is an attack on the American middle class. Teachers are ordinary, hardworking people just like the rest of us. They don't deserve to have their pay and benefits yanked out from under them to fund more tax cuts for the rich.

Ron:

Now the fun begins. They will redo the vote I am sure. We should be asking;

1) Will they let the Democrats vote and will their vote count??

2) Waht impact will the recalls have on the GOP/TP Senators coupled with the reception they got at the last vote, will we peal off the 3 we need??

Let he recalls BEGIN!!!

Good Afternoon USNavy:

I'm thinking that sometime soon the Wisconsin legislators will take a spring break, recall requirements will be reached and this "law" will never see the light of day.

However, there are still battles to be fought in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and elsewhere. This war will not be over until the "tea baggers" are defeated.

I don't like what your elected representative stands for so let's recall them.

This is a bad precedence to set - recalling for one single vote.

Ron Indiana

A special thank you to the protesters and Anna Molly for their work in stopping this infringement of the democratic process. The open meeting law was violated and now recall petitions are being completed to reign in those who mock justice. This is democracy in action.

She has been beautiful in keeping us educated and abreast of what is going on in Wisconsin.

Thank Anna

Also Ron it's looks like pipsqueek Gov Walker is going to have to do his homework; and the righties will have to do a better job trolling.

At height of WI union fight, Walker made time for Frank Luntz … Plus: WI GOPers back down

March 16, 2011 · Posted in News and Current Affairs

Ha Ha Frank Luntz the master "Spin Doctor". Walker better bone up and not cheat this time or else the dummy might get kicked out of school again.

Ron:

How true. We have not yet begun to fight...

"However, there are still battles to be fought in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and elsewhere"

No kidding. The Michigan clown ran as a moderate. Lots of work together crap. He hit the office like a rabid dog. Business tax cuts 86%. Raise income and property taxes 30%. I knew he was a POS. As CEO of Gateway when they outsourced all those jobs he said he was against it. Yeah...right. Now he's showing his true colors.

HJA:

I recently read that the Michigan Governor could be recalled starting sometime in July. Time to start printing those recall petitions. Don't ya think?

On a different 'Vine blog about this story, a number of posts of course attacked the ruling, claimed the judge was "bought," and made other ridiculous claims.

The delusional posters who say the majority of people in Wisconsin support this law aren't paying attention. Walker, who pulled this same stunt as County Executive for Milwaulkee County before getting booted out becuse he lied, is facing an absolute certainty of recall. Further, he manufactured this so-called crisis to pursue an ideological goal, attacking unions. There has been ample demonstration that the alleged "crisis" not only has been essentially fixed, but that future budget shortfalls have many ways to be addressed other than giving tax breaks to the Koch Borthers.

And some loonies even claim the judge was "bought." Lessee, the ELECTED county attorney files suit, and a temporary restraining order is issued.

Folks, it's going to trial. That's why this temporary order was issued.

This is only the beginning, of course. The basis of this action is improper procedure under state law. The other suits, attacking the validity of the measure itself, are the ones that will move through higher courts.

Walker and the Republicraps are only getting the tip of the retaliation they've richly earned. Drink your tea now, righties, your refills may not be available.

And by the way, it was a very astute observation to note that the threat of the recalls could in fact change some Republican Senators' votes. The upper Midwest demagogues don't have anything near the support they think is around.

"I recently read that the Michigan Governor could be recalled starting sometime in July. Time to start printing those recall petitions. Don't ya think?"

Where do I sign???????

Folks, it's going to trial. That's why this temporary order was issued.

And what do you suggest in the interim? Massive layoffs, or massive tax hikes? Because you see, the books, they don't balance.

HJA:

I don't know my friend. I'm from Indiana and I have my own crazy governor to deal with. BTW, Indiana Democrats are still out of state. No end in sight. A footnote: In Indiana, one party has left the state 7 times in our history. 3 times by republicans, 4 times by democrats. This is not a new strategy.

JoAnnaSmith - Neither.....the Governor should recind the massive tax cuts have gave away before he had the revenue to pay for those cuts.

Except the bill has no budget items in it. They were striped out so that the bill could be passed without a quorum. Proving, once and for all, it was never about the budget and all about trying to break up the unions.

I know it's hard, JAS1, but do try to keep up.

Hopefully this is just the begining and America will wake up and put those shills for the corporations the tea party back where they belong on the fridge!

Ron, one thing that I also see time and again in the various blogs on this subject is the complete falsehood that the state is "going broke," that the public employees are overpaid for jobs that don't require any serious work, and that there's a serious financial emergency right now in Wisconsin.

Over and over again, people have quite patiently and thoroughly shown those claims to be complete bunkum, propaganda to give Gov. Walker and his Tea Party cronies cover for their purely ideological assaults on unions. It approaches the point of tedum to keep repeating this, especially when this particular year's budget deficit in WI is relatively minimal - about $135 million, and the unions had already conceded the fianancial demands that entirely covered the deficit. I just love it when some of the airheads cite billions in the current fiscal year shortfall, they never bother with the facts. It is even a deficit Wlaker himself ceated by giving tax breaks to the Koch Brothers and their cronies.

And, with the concessions the unions made, their share of contributing to projected future deficits, resulting from falling revenues that Walker has no idea how to replace, has already been committed. Walker can't get any more money out of the public employees to fix problems he himself helped create - so where else does he plan to go? Well, that's been revealed also - he's taking it from children, the elderly and disabled, the unemployed, single mothers, and of course from health care for the poor.

The recalls are not just about one vote some folk didn't like. It's about the entire pack of barbarians.

laurie dear, Wisconsin shows a $3.5 billion dollar deficit without enacting this law. Please show that any tax cuts Walker signed will balance that amount. And seeing you can't, I guess I should just tell you now to have a nice weekend sweetie.

John A:

Boehner has been using that "going broke" phrase for some time and the same theme has been used by a number of these Republican Governors. In my opinion, it's more about allocating the resources you have than "going broke" And you are spot-on. It's not about a single vote, it's about an approach to governing that clearly harms the middle class.

one thing that I also see time and again in the various blogs on this subject is the complete falsehood that the state is "going broke,"

And that kind of gets to the core of the Liberals/Unions "argument". In order to justify the behavior by the Unions, you have to understand that they have to lie to themselves to justify their actions. Wisconsin uses GAAP processes and methods just like everyone else does to come up with the financial health of the state, and those numbers show a huge deficit. But Liberals can't accept this, because if they did, it would counter every argument they have. So, they just live in a state of denial, and constant rage.

it's more about allocating the resources you have than "going broke"

In his 2012 budget, Obama is allocating about a $1.65 trillion dollars in deficit spending. One could say that is not "going boke", but instead you could call it "gone broke".

Hey, Ron, there's another mousie in the room throwing a hissy fit.

Stamps them little tiny feet and voids on the carpet.

"Love to eat them mousies,

"Mousies what I eat!

"Bite they little heads off,

"Nibble on they tiny feet!"

- B. Kliban

JoAnnaSmith - Proving my point aren't you? If what you say is true and I believe that they had a balanced budget last year, why oh why would the Governor with that kind of deficit give away a huge tax break and expect the public to pay for it? Because, JoAnna when you cut education the way this governor it affects not only public workers but it affects the people of Wisconsin that want their children educated. I suspect if you took a poll most parents in Wisconsin wouldn't want their education funding cut. You have a nice weekend too...

John A:

If I remember correctly, "turdblossom" aka Rove used to talk about biting the heads off of little animals. He too was sick.

JOAnnaSmith, the "budget repair bill" was originally a bill to "repair" the current budget -- the $3.5 billion figure you cite is the "projected" deficit for 2011-2013....nothing in the budget repair bill should change that. However, the tax cuts Gov. Walker put in place DO add to the projected deficit for 2011-2013.

Ron - you mean Rove is a circus geek?

Apologies to all the propeller heads in the room, but the original usage of "geek" was for the sideshow freaks who would, for a price, bite off the heads of chickens and other animals. Revolting, indeed. Modern usage is much nicer.

But the image of Rove in a special sideshow tent, out in some godforsaken Midwestern plains town ... a circus geek ...

Thanks, Ron! You made my weekend.

And while I'm at it, thanks too, kate 1855079, I did discuss the exact same point in more general terms above. Of course, since the post was longer than a sentence, it was probably too much work for some of the airheads to read. These specifics have been cited repeatedly in the FR/FT blogs, but some airheads just like to resort to propaganda and outright falsehoods since their arguments otherwise are completely worthless.

Unless of course, kate, they spur economic growth and businesses remain in Wisconsin. Before enacting the changes, Wisconsin ranked 42nd out of 50 states regarding their business climate. That ranking actually went up after Walker was elected.

But after 30 years of steadily decreasing taxes on the wealthy and business interests shouldn't we be swimming in jobs, begging for immigrants to keep up with the demand for employees?

Unless of course that theory doesn't work and it's just an excuse to move middle class wealth to the top of the economic pyramid...

John A:

Too funny. Reminds me of a piece in the SF TV show "V" where one of the aliens is running around a garbage bin saying here mousy, here mousy here little mousy. Catches one and eats it.

just curious.... suppose u do get recall on 3 republicans..... whats to prevent recall of greater # of democrats from "gang" of 14....then what dou do?

There's certainly an effort to recall enough Democrats to prevent them from flipping the Wisconsin Senate, but given the incredible approval hit that Republicans are taking from their sorry spectacle you have to like the Democrats chances. http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/scott-walkers-approval-rating-takes-a-hit-in-wake-of-protests/

You can only abuse the American people before they snap out of their learned helplessness and start to fight back

Well, I certainly see that this site certainly has no shortage of Lefties slandering the action of the WI legislature. At the end of the day, folks, this act will pass that the Union leadership is going to have to find other ways to pick the public's pocket!

Have fun lefties ... you make noise but that's it! Try going back to work for a while, you'll get more respect.

@Astonished really the Union leadership picking the public's pocket! I think your wrong there, it is the right wing (trickle down economics) whack jobs and tea baggers elected to government that are out to pick the public's pocket.

Bottom line here the party of conservatism is a fraud. Most rightwingers in office sound like really bad used car salesman.

So true, Helen. In reality the GOPTP and Scott Walker, Governor of Kochistan picked the pockets of average citizens who just happen to work for government entities and handed that money to the folks who purchased their elective offices.

Actually this is getting old. You guys exaggerate and attempt to pin everything that you disagree with in life on republicans. He is not trying to balance the budget on the backs of anyone.

If you think Democrat Congressmen/women do not owe some heavy hitters something; then you have not been around politics long.

ALL POLITICIANS are beholden to donors. Political campaigns are not free. If you give a dollar and I give 2 dollars then common sense will tell you; I'm first in line. That is human nature, nothing scientific about it.

You guys try to psyco ananlyze evrything but it is not that serious. Of course Democrats will grab every mike in town and say that the man is coming to get you but yet still on the phone with those same donors. Anything stated publically by a politician is coordinated. They already know the reaction just the same as anyone who has watched politics in this country for more than a day.

In this country Democrats yell, scream, protest anything (a way of re-living the 60's), and Republicans go on about their business.

In the end.....it is all about the mighty dollar, if it wasn't Obama would not have had to raise 700 million in the last election.

I think you are right, Amy---we need reminders of what is going on. It seems to me that they will be able to pass the bill again whether or not the Dems leave the state because of the procedure they used to make the bill be considered a non-revenue bill. I still think they should have to follow the proper legislative steps and let everyone see what they are doing. I hope the recalls continue.

Absolutely correct. Had this passed quickly not one word would have been said in the MSM, who are more inclined to handle the "horse race" aspect of politics rather than the human toll of draconian measures. The longer this stays in the public eye the more people become aware that this is part of a wholesale assault on the middle class. And thanks to FR for providing substance and context throughout this dramatic series of events.

IntheMiddle, TX

Actually this is getting old. You guys exaggerate and attempt to pin everything that you disagree with in life on republicans. He is not trying to balance the budget on the backs of anyone.

If you think Democrat Congressmen/women do not owe some heavy hitters something; then you have not been around politics long.

How you doing IntheMiddle,

Hey you better watch out cuz or else the Drop Squad is coming.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109675/

I don't like you fulfilling the Republican Wish List.:)

This is for "inthemiddle, TX" Please take the TX moniker out of you sign on name, your words are an embarrassment to other Texans. It is embarrassing when the rest of the Country lumps all of us into one category based on opinions like yours. Thank you,

Yeah, it really must get tiring to keep hearing the facts about how the Republican/TP Inc. party is attacking the middle class. It really upsets the right when the facts get in the way of their lies and exposes their true agenda.

fayse:

You seem to be a rookie around here. I suggest you stay in the freshman league before you get embarrassed.

That's right, fayse, you wouldn't want to embarrass yourself on here like ITM does every single day.

Seriously though, fayse, keep it up, ITM is easy and fun to needle. He has some really funny blow ups. He's actually threatened me with physical violence to prove how smart he is. Classic.

the middle, I have been working on my continuing education all of my life. I don't use foul language, I just try to make a sensible point. As I have as much right to my opinion as you, I suggest you try not to be the bully in these post. I am probably old enough to be your mother so, the only thing that embarrasses me is when Grown Texans act like idiots. Why not try to improve your knowledge by educating yourself rather than listening to hate filled radio types.

Oh, Fayse! Nicely done and nice call out on the bully aspect. Spot on, that is his normal schtick.

And if I had to bet, I'd bet you're really only 29, right? ;-)

fayse:

Great job, go get em he tries to bully people all the time to no avail. That is what happens when you have no ideas just a big mouth. Nice call out, looks like he met his match today.

fayse:

We were all rookies at one point. Stick around and stick to your guns; you'll do just fine. The ones who should be embarrassed are the ones who are still repeating freshman year for the third time.

The sad part is the union agreed to just about every cut Walker wanted...but he really didn't care about that. He wanted to bust the union's ability to engage in collective bargaining, and that's really what all this was about. It was never about the budget, it was always about a GOP governor wanting to break the most organized backers of his political opponents. Surprise, surprise.

"....tell them if they want their jobs back take a cut in pay."

Uh- I think they already agreed to do this in the first place. If I was them, and had the chance after all that's gone down up to now, I'd be tempted to pull that back on 'em now like Lucy and the football. Show the greed-head Governor he got more than he 'bargained' for!

so here is were the parasites are

are unions are thier gutless thugs immuned from economics 101

oh that's right

they don't teach that anymore

ignorance is only second to union $

Of course, the unions will have to re-ramp up their protests again, and we all know what the means!

Schools Out!!!

Chris, what would happen if the union agreed, as you say, and then one or two years down the road changed their mind had there not been legislation? You would see double digit increases to make up for losses in prior contracts.

The fallacy that this is about the children or education is being exposed.

I love the way people bash the unions. Just shows their ignorance of history. What we have is all because of unions. What really cracks me up is how these fools scream about unions but some @$$ CEO that makes $40,000 PER HOUR well that's OK. He earned it. He earned it by cutting jobs, no raises, cut benefits.

WHy take money away from working people and give it to a bunch of rich people. In WI only about 1/3 of corporations actually pay taxes and now they get more tax breaks. Just doesn't seem fair to cut education and money given to municipalities to give it away again to the like of the Koch Bros. You Tea Party People actually support this...I can only shake my head at the stupidity!

PROTEUS-2675502

The public workers agreed to the pay and benefit cuts that were asked of them. Governor Walker and the Republicans then took their concessions and proceeded to strip employees of their bargaining rights and made it more difficult for the unions to organize. Ironic, isn't it? The Tea Party politicians campaign like Sam Adams and govern like King George III. Fromrebels to monarchists in two months.

HJA, great points. Hard to believe the way the right bashes unions and workers but will defend the wealthy at all costs. The decline of private sector wages and benefits runs parallel to the decline (via the GOP's Fair Labor Laws) in private sector unions. They simply do not understand their jobs are the next ones to have wages and benefits cuts--it's blissful ignorance I guess.

HJA

I love the way people bash the unions. Just shows their ignorance of history. What we have is all because of unions. What really cracks me up is how these fools scream about unions but some @$$ CEO that makes $40,000 PER HOUR well that's OK. He earned it. He earned it by cutting jobs, no raises, cut benefits

You hit the hammer on the nail; HJA. Why is that so hard for them to see?

@Chris N.-1932876

The sad part is the union agreed to just about every cut Walker wanted...but he really didn't care about that. He wanted to bust the union's ability to engage in collective bargaining, and that's really what all this was about. It was never about the budget, it was always about a GOP governor wanting to break the most organized backers of his political opponents. Surprise, surprise.

drive-by-observer beat me to it. But, I'll repeat it only in a different way.

Erpenbach said workers should not lose their rights since they have agreed to make concessions.

Erpenbach said he remained at a Chicago hotel and his colleagues were "scattered" out of state. They had a conference call Saturday night, and Erpenbach said they remained united in their effort to stall the bill.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-18-wisconsin-union-vote_N.htm

In an interview with Fox News’ Megyn Kelly moments ago, State Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-WI), one of Walker’s closest allies in the legislature, confirmed the true political motive of Walker’s anti-union push. Fitzgerald explained that “this battle” is about eliminating unions so that “the money is not there” for the labor movement. Specifically, he said that the destruction of unions will make it “much more difficult” for President Obama to win reelection in Wisconsin…"

http://steadysoul.tumblr.com/post/3755136365/in-an-interview-with-fox-news-megyn-kelly-moments

Deceptive alert ! People

Proud Marine - brought to you from the republican party and fake news

Last I heard the gov workers WERE contributing to their pension funds and health care. In addition, the union offered to cover more of the costs, but Gov Walker didn't want to discuss that and it wasn't enough for him. Gov Walker really wanted to bust the union. I believe that gov workers are paying for their pensions; albeit the gov workers in positions such as Gov Walker have a much better package. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the Governor's complete package!

This is proof the unions are too strong, their actions are a detriment to the States who can't support their overwhelming demands! Even the great liberal FDR warned of the dangers of collective bargaining for public employees and he was right!

The unions want balanced budgets, but not if doing so would require their help! This is going to end badly for everyone!

It is about the loss of a freedom or the rights of individuals. If any part is lost or taken by another more powerful group, we all lose. Next it could be something that is important to you.

miked-332794

This is proof the unions are too strong

Brother... you are SO right!

We go through this so many times. Proud Marine, let's say that you take a job paying $48,000, but instead of getting that money right away, each month your employer puts $500 of your salary in a "pension" fund. Now is that money yours or your employer's? They put the money into the fund, so is it theirs? If they gave you a choice, you could take a salary of $54,000 with no money put in the pension fund. As you can see, over time, the $6,000 a year can earn more money in the pension fund than if it were part of a regular salary, unless you yourself put that much aside each paycheck. So it might seem attractive to you to get that $48,000 with benefits down the road. Those benefits are yours, and it is YOUR money going in -- same thing with the teachers.

Proud Marine,

The average retired teacher in Maine lives on a pension of $19,000 a year and they are not allowed to get social security benefits, even if they paid into the system through another job. (This is true in Maine for most public workers.) Only 13% of Maine teachers reach 25 years of teaching, before retirement, in which case they get a pension of $26,000. Making Middle Class workers the target of your (or your friends') jealousy seems a little sad.

Of course that is easy to say if you have one! Are you retired military? If so you are all set. I want my childrens teachers to be the best and you get what you pay for. Also I think everyone she have access to medical care and be taken care of when they are elderly. Watch out lots of the Tea Party would like to cut your benefits too!

In Case you didn't know, Wisconsin Gov workers Pensions and Union dues are 100% payed for out of their PAY. It is Not a tax payer handout! They have a choice to use their money for What ever they Want. They are people too! They have the right to spend their money in which ever they want without communists like walker telling them what to do and how to live.

Proud Marine. Ever think that maybe workers don't have pensions and health care because the GOP has done such a bang up job reducing private sector unions. Thank goodness there is Social Security and Medicare for the elderly--at least until the GOP manages to dismantle and eliminate that, too--even though we've all paid into it our entire working lives.

Iowa's Governor Branstad earns $147,000 a year as Governor. Since he was Governor for 16 years before and held other public sector positions, he also draws $50,000 a year in pension money from the State. He's entitled to that $50,000 because he earned it but this same man is working hard to rid the state of the very collective bargaining system he benefits from today.

Steve-101,

Teapublicans look at this the same way they look at abortion. Since your pay comes from tax dollars then any part of your pay that goes for anything is paid for by tax payers. Union dues, Religious donations, your telephone, etc. are all tax payer dollars at work and the tax payers should be allowed to tell you how to spend your (their) money.

I know many many people without pensions to they are called homeless...and besides what's your point?

@steve the union dues and pension are paid 100% by public union empolyees, where do their wages come from, a magical land filled with rainbows and pots of gold?????? TAXPAYER MONEY FROM TAXES DEDUCTED FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR>>>>>>>>>>>helloo, is this an example of the best and brightest of the left??????SCARY

OK, Mruseurhead, try to take your own advice. This may be hard for you to understand but once your taxes are used to pay someone IT ISN'T YOUR MONEY ANYMORE! I'm about to go to the grocery store. Do I get to tell the cashier what sort of car to drive? I went to the bank this morning. Should I have lectured the teller to not use the profits from MY business to go drinking tonight?

You don't get to control the lives of public employees just because their paycheck comes from taxes. That's just another lame excuse to attack average Americans and a shiny object to distract us from the wealth streaming to the elites who are pulling the Tea Party strings.

Here's what the middle class Republican supporters don't get. Yes your tax dollars pay union workers living wages and benifits, money that stays in your community. Scott Walker plans to hand the state over to big corporate interests. First he will dismantle the unions, then he will privitize state institutions who will replace those union workers with much lower paid workers. Those private companies will then use those institutions to pillage your tax dollars for themselves. You won't see any kind of tax break. You will see wages go down accross the board because the bar has been lowered for working class income and benifits. Instead of having a fourth grade mentality, and bickering about what kind of wages, pesions, or benifits union and gov workers are getting... maybe point the finger at the private sector that is screwing you out of pay, beifits and pensions. There was a time when private sector jobs gave their workers the kind of treatment these "greedy" teachers are getting now. keep it up and we'll all be making minimum wage.

Frank, simply put, the measure in question is the "non fiscal" element of what had been a more comprehensive measure cutting pay, adding payments for health insurance and benefits, and more. by "dividing the question," as this is called in Parliamentary procedure terms, under Wisconsin law the non-fiscal element could be independently voted upon without a requirement for a quorum of the state Senate. That aspect of the procedure was not challenged in this suit.

This measure essentially disenfranchises public employee unions - except those representing police and fire personnel - by removing collective bargaining rights and requiring annual re-certification elections under terms that make it difficult for workers. The issue that went before the court was not the measure itself, but the procedure by which it was adopted. It's a matter of satisfying the state's "sunshine law" in adopting legislation. Other suits ha ve been filed addressing the bill's terms, but those are not the issue in this ruling.

The court order is merely a temporary restraining order to block implementation until a trial is held on the matter. At that point, if the measure is deemed as not law because of the procedures followed, the state Senate may vote again on it, or the bill could have to start all over again in the Wisconsin lower house.

Shockingly we are tax payers and voters so we do get a say. Why so you people seem to think we aren't. I've been paying taxes since I was 15 and I am 50 now. This is a democracy and it is our money too. I believe in your rights to your opinion why don't you people believe in ours.

if it were left up to tax payers...teachers, firemen, police, nurses and all other public service workers would not get paid anything...Why is it ok for a lawyer with 6+ years of education to make 150,000 a year, but a teacher with the same education make too much at 45,000 a year? I'm glad I have protection from the majority of nut bags on here that say stuff like we are a socialist nation and try and uses fear to turn on one another. The difference between dems and repubs is that dems can see how unions have screwed themselves and know that there needs to be change...republs refuse to see both sideds and just start trying to bully everyone that doesn't agree with them...it's pretty sad all the stuff that is said by republs on these message boards that are so factless it is unreal. Be educated people before talking, it makes you look stupid.

kdbwheels

"If the Wisconsin budget was at stake why are they giving tax cuts?"

"ME Firsters" don't do logic, OR what's morally ethical, OR what's good for the WHOLE, kd. They are "ME Firsters" for a reason.

Because they listen to lies being said over and over and over. If you repeat something enough times, and people do not use critical thinking skills, they believe the lies are the truth.

They have a bizarre belief that less income will fix budget holes...gotta love the math. (I wished it worked in my check book)

My question is this- was it LEGALLY passed- don't see how it can be legal if only one party voted for it while the rest was out to lunch. This whole issue needs to be voted on by a state referendum not by political BSA's.

the Judge said they violated the open vote Law.

"I know... I know... you want to scream that this is no different than what the conservatives did with HCR..."

You think we screamed about that, wait until you hear how we reacted to 'Citizens United'.

By the way- "the law that was legally passed"? Can't you read?

@ SickOfTheBickering

Yes, I agree with you on HCR. But two wrongs do not make a right.

I am glad that the People are standing up to Walker and his fascist motives. Even an uneducated person can see how this [union busting] clearly has NOTHING to do with the budget.

I am glad to see that this judge was not on the take and is doing what is right.

Other states had better take serious notice. We are fully prepared, willing and eager to start more recall processes. The facsists who are trying to de-democratize our once great nation are in for a very rude awakening.

The next item after cleaning this abuse is REAL job creation - NOT destruction.

Spoken like a true blue GOPTB er...How can you people sleep at night. Oh....thats right...sounds like you live in a gated community, to rich for my blood

Beware of the presedent you may set with recall, Proud. You may not like the way this law read, but what about the next law that you do favor? How will you react when the opposition begins recall proceedings because they don't like a law?

Bookem' Danno

I am an American first, before I even consider party affiliate. Most people have become and are so polarized that they forget what America really stands for.

Though a registered Dem, I have voted Republican, not for a specific issue, but for what the individual candidate stood for overall concerning the needs of our once great nation.

Even as a Dem, I am against HCR, per the way that it was implemented. You will not hear me oppose those [Republicans] who want to abolish it. So while there are laws that I may dislike, I am not opposed to them as long as they were implemented fairly, openly, with majority support, so that will propel our nation to become the most prosperous nation on Earth.

Walker crossed the line, just as Pelosi did with HCR. IMO, Walker's policies are those of a fascist, of which I totally denounce. Thus the reason that I consider myself to be objective and honest, without partisan polarization, when I speak out about things.

I would hope that others, whether Dem, Repub, Indy or Tea, would feel the same way about our country of democracy that I do. Until recently it didn't seem to be the case, until it directly affected those people individually.

I disagree with you about HCR. That was debated for over a year!!! The right had put forth many amendments, met with the left, the president had a very public meeting with the right, It was not passed through reconciliation although it legally could have. So there was no "shoving down our throats" as some people claim. In fact, if it wasn't for the right the HCR bill would have been much better by including a public option. The left compromised too much too soon.

If you remember history the mandate that the right scream about now was their idea in the 90's when Clinton tried this. They claimed that the mandate would be the only way for this to work because if healthy people were not in the pool than the insurance companies (their corporate buddies) would not make enough money because they would be paying out too much.

With regard to WI, the governor by separating the bill proved that union busting was his agenda. If there is no money in the bill how can it help fix the deficit and balance the budget? But regardless of all that, the judge ordered a stay because the vote itself broke WI state law. NOt the topic of the vote but the vote itself did not follow the laws of the state.

I may not have been clear in my point, Proud. I did not mention any party. I mentioned opposition. Today, the opposition (could be from any party) to the bill passed by the Wisconsin legislature happens to be those in support of the public unions. Who knows what legislation will come down the pike tomorrow. Either way, I believe the recall option is something that will come back to bite those who use it.

Nice post, but you lost me somewhere, dpark1. Didn't these union people AGREE to forgo the monetary rewards, and agree to the Governor's demands??

DBO:

And the answer is Yes. The unions accepted all the monetary demands of Governor Walker. This was never about spending cuts but about busting the unions PERIOD.

dpark1

Public employees are taxpayers as well.

Drive by:

The unions did agree, but what about next time? The unions will simply make demands again. Unions are obsolete. Disbanding them will be a good thing. The laws they helped put on the books are good laws, but there are no more laws to be put on the books. The OSHA laws aren't going anywhere. The unions aren't needed anymore.

Amy:

Public employees are not taxpayers. They are paid by taxes to begin with and then they "pay" taxes back to the government. These taxes that pay the public employees come from the private sector, because ALL taxes come from the private sector.

The unions did agree, but what about next time? The unions will simply make demands again. Unions are obsolete. Disbanding them will be a good thing. The laws they helped put on the books are good laws, but there are no more laws to be put on the books. The OSHA laws aren't going anywhere. The unions aren't needed anymore.

Lynchmob - SO WHAT if the Unions make demands? That does NOT mean that you have to GRANT THEM!! The issue - and the problem - is that the ire/anger is being directed at the WRONG party. Get upset with the cities/states/municipalities that AGREE WITH THESE DEMANDS and PAY FOR THEM.

um... the unions STRIKE if their demands aren't met. And good luck getting non-union workers in a union town. They simply won't take the job out of fear.

Lynchmob - that is what collective BARGAINING is all about. The operative word is BARGAINING. The problem is that your legislators are LOUSY bargainers. So WHAT if the Union asks for the moon? They are SUPPOSED to do that in a bargaining session.

The issue - and point - is that the cities/municipalities/states are LOUSY at bargaining. maybe you should look into WHY the cities/states/municipalities roll over so quickly and get back to us.

Good point Pietro. Let me illustrate with an example from the last time our newly TP'd Governor, Terry Branstad was running the state. The unions came in with a proposal, one that was a little on the high side because you're going to have to give some up in the negotiation. Branstad's offer was nothing...no wage increase, no benefit increase, nothing for the next 3 years. The union made a counter offer, Branstad insisted on 0. He was busy giving away a lot of money to corporations for "economic development" so someone had to suffer.

At that point the next step is binding arbitration. If the Guv had made a proposal that was anywhere close to reasonable the arbitrator probably would have taken that, but he didn't so the union received their last proposal--by their own admission more than they accepted. Branstad went off to "help" the private sector and left a $150M hole for Tom Vilsack to backfill. He did it, and between he and his successor Chet Culver they managed to build Iowa back to a status of third best run state in the union, according to the investor group. http://www.bleedingheartland.com/diary/4265/investor-group-ranks-iowa-third-bestrun-state

Twelve years later Terry Branstad is again ensconced in his capital office and less than 3 months later he's created an enormous budget hole by giving a big tax break to business. He'd like to fix that by taking the money out of the pockets of state workers. Imagine that. So much for Republicans as the party of fiscal responsibility.

So if Branstad was bargaining on behalf of taxpayers, he would've had motivation to counter the union's offer, right? That would be bargaining in good faith. If, however, he was elected with the support of the union, then what motivation does he have to go against the union? It's institutionalized corruption, and taxpayers are on the hook for it. And it's wrong.

This is the kind of union abuse that the recently passed legislation in Wisconsin is meant to curb.

Interesting theory Paul, but since Branstad even then hung his hat on being a "Conservative Republican" and didn't have the endorsement of the unions there's nothing there...he just screwed up.

Agreed, John. He screwed up. But you can see how it's easier to acquiesce to union demands when a governor of the liberal, conservative, or any other variety can just pass the costs along to taxpayers with impunity. That's why collective bargaining for public employee unions is inconsistent with representative democracy, as FDR pointed out, and breeds corruption.

Paul, incredibly disingenuous. I give you an example of a state where stupid bargaining. You reply of course it's stupid bargaining, that's what Liberals do. I point out it was a Conservative. You acknowledge my point and insist it would've been far worse had the governor been a Liberal.

You're presenting your point as being incapable of being refuted or disproven. Nonsense. Your point can't be PROVEN. You just present it as a matter of faith. That's the problem with Conservatism, it's all theory. Theory that has largely destroyed the lot of the middle class over the last 30 years.

@Joh, how is it disingenuous to state that politicians (regardless of party affiliation) are less inclined to bargain aggressively on behalf of taxpayers when it's just easier to acquiesce, let the union have their way, and pass the bill on to taxpayers? My point wasn't to single out any party as worse than any other. I'm talking about government in general. Municipalities are functional monopolies so the taxpayers don't have any other choices from which to derive public services. The nature of government (again, regardless of party affiliation) is coercion so it isn't subject to the disciplines of the free market and therefore government doesn't have any incentive to contain costs.

The unions have benefitted handsomely for several decades from this arrangement and I can see why they are fighting tooth and nail to keep it in place. Unfortunately, it's wrong. It breeds corruption, and for that reason, FDR himself was unambiguously opposed to collective bargaining rights for public employee unions. I agree with him.

Fine Paul, but year after year for the last 3 DECADES nearly every governmental body has had regular budget shortfalls and a steady drumbeat of calls to cut taxes. Services have been downsized, outsourced, and discontinued throughout that time. That's a powerful incentive to hold the line on those salaries to a reasonable level. Add to that the fact that there isn't anything to indicate these folks are living like kings and what you have is a theory that has no evidence in the real world.

The process will essentially have to start from the beginning though!

Republican voters never told him to dismantle the unions. He and the Koch bros are doing this on there own. He's a little Hitler.

bobr, i stand corrected.

Walker is doing what the voters told him to do when he gets into office

Not; The voters never told him to cut taxes for the corporations and the rich, they never told him they wanted the unions busted. Walker pulled the old "bait and Switch" and unfortunately the people of WI bought into it and now they are recalling their mistake(s).

Keep reading the right wing newsletters and talking points.

gullyjuice, you prior comment was collapsed so was my reply. Bottom line is, hatred is not good for the soul nor your mental health. Open you heart and mind to happier and purer thoughts. You sincerly sound like you are very near the edge. Thats what hate does to you.

To the independents: look at all this liberal garbage obfiscating the key moral point. The Govt is a monopoly; there is no competition; If you want a drivers license you have to get it from the State. If mcDonalds goes on strike, you can go to Carls or mult other establishments. As a monopoly why do the public sector empolyees need to Unionize? Also as they are forced into joining the Union and forced to pay dues, the dues are used by union Bosses to fund political groups; 95% democrats, even if members aren't liberal; furthermore they "negotiate" with the same politicians they put into power. A clear conflict of interest! Examine the rhetoric and you will understand why all branches of govt are in the red. The Federal debt costs 1 billion dollars every to weeks in just interest.

As cal 20 says.. after haivng another hit off the bong...

FeisyRed: ok i spelled two wrong, " Federal debt costs 1 billion evry TWO weeks". by the way, i don't smoke.

I do not care if you are yellow, brown, red or white. You spew hate.

Gully,,,your juice is stale,,,find something that is up to date and factual to compalin about.

You make a lot of unfounded assumptions. Take that sheet off your head and you may see clearer.

gulllyjuce, there is no way that anyone would ever believe that you are a black man.

Gully juice thinks we are as stupid as him, if he is black...he can only be one guy, justice Clarence Thomas the biggest ...well I'm not going to say it, would be beneath me

Its called the recall look at some independent polls and tell me that

Maxwell said it best:

Worst Case scenario:

The vote is nullified....the GOP gives 24 hours notice...holds the vote again...it passes again...the law is put into place.

If the Dems show up to debate the law after the 24 hour notice...the GOP can just vote on the budget bill that includes the union reform and it will pass.

This is all just a waste of time and money to redo...get over it union thugs. You lost the election, and you don't have the power to stop this.

• 1

• !

#17 - Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:10 PM CDT

gullyjuice - That's not what Walker did. He already won concession from the union. What he tried to do was destroy the union. He overreached and he and the Republicans will pay at the ballot box.

laurie - 480643

Nice rebuttal. Expose those lies from the right. They seem to always forget the facts don't they. Just more hot air from the party of NOTHING.

And that is the republican way of creating jobs! lay off people to solve budget deficits...forget about increasing revenue.....

Uh I hate to tell you this NAFTA was Bush SR.'s doin Clinton just signed off on it do some research...because the people who read your posts do every one reading your post is laughing at your idiocy. I know this and I was only 12 at the time...amazing the internet is... full of independent facts!

Being 12 is probably why you couldn't comprehend what exactly happened. Bush Sr.'s administration was looking for a way to basically balance trade. His administration floated the idea but he didn't win a second term. The Clinton administration came in and one of the first things they were successful with was convincing the Congress to pass NAFTA after it was personalized to his liking.

You see it does not matter who came up with an idea; it belongs to the POTUS that passed it whether good or bad. If Obamacare does not pan out; the next POTUS will definately be pressured to tweak or even eliminate it. It will then become his/her monster even though they didn't create it.

When Obama leaves office with a not so great record his supporters will continue to blame Bush but in reality if he didn't like something Bush enacted it is up to him to eliminate or tweak and it becomes his because he is the POTUS.

I'll take one principled Governor trying to do the right thing over a million union thugs trying to protect their legal sanction to extort taxpayers any day.

Paul - Extort taxpayers!! Hah! Why don't you think about the myriad of services that people receive from public sector workers. I don't think you could get through one day without their services. Let's just start with garbage pick up in the morning. What would you do with your smelly garbage every morning....Load it in your car and throw it on the side of the road somewhere? I could go on about all the services we've come to expect. So extort? I hardly think so. Get a grip and stop listening to a bunch of right wing haters with their propoganda.

we could get by without the union thugs any day....people would flock to take their jobs. oh and my garbage collectors are a PRIVATE FIRM...not much a private firm can't do....I would say get a clue, but thats not possible for left-wing haters

Yes! Extort taxpayers!!

It's not the trash collectors, or the teachers, or any other public employees, it's their unions and the way that they collectively bargain that are the problem. I appreciate the services that public employees provide, but collective bargaining for public employee unions is a bad idea. Here's how it works: when union membership is required and union dues are extracted from employee paychecks and then used to elect union-friendly government officials (who then go on to collectively bargain with the union) the union winds up on BOTH SIDES OF THE BARGAINING TABLE.

It's corruption, Laurie, plain and simple. And the taxpayers who have to pay for it have no recourse because unions are private interests who are not accountable to voters. That so many left-leaning folks like yourself don't see that speaks to your lack of objectivity and warped sense of reason.

Paul -- union membership is not required. However, if the union is the agreed-upon bargaining agent for employees, then all employees pay a prorated share of the cost of representation. No dues are "extracted." Employees often prefer payroll deduction to spread dues out over the year, in the same way that people choose payroll deduction for auto loans, mortgages and charitable contributions. People who belong to unions may vote any way they wish. They vote in the voting booth just as you do and make their own choices. It may be that they vote for representatives who value the things they do, but they do not end up on both sides of the bargaining table -- the union representatives are on one side and "management" is on the other.

Wrong, Kate.

Wisconsin is not a "right-to-work" state, so union membership is compulsory. You are equating public employee unions and their counterparts in the private sector. There's a huge difference. Management is on the other side of the table ONLY in private employee unions. Private employee unions can argue that they are entitled to a share of the profits that are derived from their labor. Whether you agree with that or not, there are NO profits in the provision of public services. It's all public money. And municipalities are functional monopolies so the taxpayers can't go elsewhere for the services.

Public employee unions pit the unions not against management, but against taxpayers. And then, they stack the deck against taxpayers. It is corrupt. Collective bargaining should not be available to public employees. The father of the modern labor movement, FDR, was unambiguously opposed to collective bargaining rights for public employees. I agree with him.

100% correct! But of course they don't like to admit this.

Wisconsin is not a "right-to-work" state, so union membership is compulsory. You are equating public employee unions and their counterparts in the private sector. There's a huge difference. Management is on the other side of the table ONLY in private employee unions.

Paul says: Wisconsin is not a "right-to-work" state, so union membership is compulsory.

Wrong. Union membership is NOT compulsory, according to the collective bargaining agreements in WI:

Upon receipt of a voluntary written individual order therefore from any of its employees covered by this Agreement on forms presently being provided by the Union, the Employer will deduct from the pay due such employee those dues required as the employee’s membership in the Union.

SEIU Collective Bargaining Contract Section 2.2.1.A

http://oser.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=6998

Upon receipt of a voluntary written individual order from any of its employees covered by this Agreement on forms presently being provided by the Union, the Employer will deduct from the pay due such employee those dues required as the employee’s membership in the Union. A list of all employees from whose pay dues have been deducted shall be sent to the appropriate local with that local’s dues deduction check. At the same time, a copy of said list of employees shall also be sent to Council 24.

AFCME Collective bargaining Contract Section 2.2.1

http://www.wseu-24.org/Contracts%20and%20Constitutions/2007-2009%20wseu%20contract.pdf

In the case of madison Teachers, a person can be a part of the bargaining unit and NOT be a part of the Union.

Personnel in the bargaining unit described herein who do not voluntarily become members of Madison Teachers via cash payment or who have not authorized the deduction of dues pursuant to the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 above, are required to pay their proportionate share of the cost of the collective bargaining process and the administration of this collective bargaining agreement, measured by the amount of dues uniformly required of all members of Madison Teachers and in that regard, the Board, shall deduct such amount from each payroll check of the bargaining unit personnel involved.

Source: Madison Teachers, Inc Collective bargaining Contract Section 3a.

http://www.madisonteachers.org/teacherunit/Teacher%20CBA%2009-11.pdf

Paul says: Management is on the other side of the table ONLY in private employee unions.

Wrong, according to the collective bargaining agreements:

This Agreement made and entered into this seventh day of June, 2008, at Madison, Wisconsin, pursuant to the provisions of ss. 111.80-111.97, Wis. Stats.,

by and between the State of Wisconsin and its Agencies (hereinafter referred to as the Employer) represented by the Office of State Employment Relations and SEIU Healthcare District 1199 Wisconsin, (hereinafter referred to as the “Union”) as representative of employees employed by the State of Wisconsin, as set forth specifically in the recognition clause.

Pietro, you still missed the point. Public and private unions are totally different and the public unions have grown totally out of balance.

Public employee unions pit the unions not against management, but against taxpayers.

Paul is WRONG again. According to the Collective bargaining Agreements that I have, nowhere does it state that the taxpayers are the ones that the Union is bargaining with.

This Agreement made and entered into this seventh day of June, 2008, at Madison, Wisconsin, pursuant to the provisions of ss. 111.80-111.97, Wis. Stats., by and between the State of Wisconsin and its Agencies (hereinafter referred to as the Employer) represented by the Office of State Employment Relations and SEIU Healthcare District 1199 Wisconsin, (hereinafter referred to as the “Union”) as representative of employees employed by the State of Wisconsin, as set forth specifically in the recognition clause.

http://oser.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=6998

This agreement effective upon execution between the BOARD OF EDUCATION OF THE MADISON METROPOLITAN SCHOOL DISTRICT hereinafter referred to as the "Board of Education", and also referred to as "the Employer", or "Madison Public Schools", or "the District"; and MADISON TEACHERS INCORPORATED, hereinafter referred to as "Madison Teachers", and also referred to as "MTI", or "the Union".

http://www.madisonteachers.org/teacherunit/Teacher%20CBA%2009-11.pdf

There is NO reference to 'the taxpayers of the State of WI' in either agreement that I have posted.

Nice try, Paul.

Marcus - I have not missed the point. What I am saying - and posting - is that Paul is WRONG in his assertions. I have posted parts of three collective bargaining agreements (there are literally hundreds in WI) that prove Paul's assertions are not correct. The .PDF files are there for you to look up for yourself.

@Pietro. And exactly where do you suppose the public sector derives its funds, if not from taxpayers? You have just made yourself ridiculous, friend.

Your long and woefully pathetic attempt to confuse the issue does not detract from what I said, and what I said is right. When union dues are collected and then used to fund the election campaigns of pro-union government officials who are then tasked with collective bargaining with the union, the union is essentially bargaining with itself. When unions make exorbitant demands of a private company, management has a motivation to say "no" because the solvency of the company is at stake. Municipalities are taxpayer funded, functional monopolies and can't go bankrupt, so whatever the union and the union-elected officials decide (both sides of the table) the taxpayers are handed the bill.

It is institutionalized corruption. It is wrong. Taxpayers need to be protected from these kinds of abuses.

You can say what you want, Paul, but are we to believe YOU or our lying eyes?

You just cannot bring yourself to let go of what you THINK is going on with Unions and Collective bargaining. I am saying to all who are reading this - don't take my word for it. Read the collective bargaining agreements yourself and make up your own mind. I'll even repost the links so you don't have to search for them.

SEIU - http://oser.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=6998

AFCSME - http://www.wseu-24.org/Contracts%20and%20Constitutions/2007-2009%20wseu%20contract.pdf

Madison Teachers (MTI) - http://www.madisonteachers.org/teacherunit/Teacher%20CBA%2009-11.pdf

No matter how much you say it, Paul, or what you think, the fact of the matter is that, in this case, Union membership is voluntary. Dues collection is voluntary.

Finally, what you refuse to acknowledge is that the Unions are BARGAINING with the cities/states/municipalities. Now if the city/state/municipality does NOT bargain - or fails to counter a proposal that the Union makes - how is that the UNION's fault? It is the fault of the person(s) doing the bargaining for the cities/state/municipality, especially if the AGREE with the proposal put forth by the Union.

The taxpayer funds the city/state/municipality coffers from taxes; once that is done, the money CEASES to be 'taxpayer money' and becomes 'Operational Funds' for the City/state/municipality. Once that 'Operational Funds' are paid to the EMPLOYEES of the city/state/municipalilty, it becomes a WAGE, and if a person who makes that WAGE decides to use that WAGE to pay Union Dues, who are you to say they shouldn't?

What the taxpayers need to be protected from are people like yourself, Paul, that are misrepresenting everything to gain a political advantage. The cities/states/municipalities can very well say NO to the Union and replace them with a private corporation, but they do not.

I wonder why that is, Paul?

I'll leave you with this, Pietro. I don't expect to change your mind because ignorance like yours seldom responds to reason or facts, but here goes. This is a quote from Franklin D. Roosevelt (yes, THAT one, the big government, new deal, father of the modern labor movement) regarding his opposition to public employee unions having collective bargaining rights:

All government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public-personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people.

Thanks, Paul, for proving my points. I have provided citations - you ignore them and call me ignorant. You provide a quote from FDR, but what is the relevance to what we are talking about?

We have collective Bargaining with Public Unions. Wisconsin has over 400 Collective bargaining agreements with the school districts... and we are not even talking about other unions that there are operating in WI.

The bottom line - attack the messenger when you have no argument.

Thanks for that, Paul.

I'll Believe my lyin' eyes over what you say anytime.

Paul has no clue what he is talking about my girlfriend is a teacher here in hattiesburg, mississippi, and paying dues is voluntary. She stopped paying hers years ago...because she is one of those hard working 12 hour a day teachers...i will say this teachers unions need to let bad and ineffective teachers be fired other than that I think teacher unions are ok...but soon we are moving to nyc and mississippi will lose a great teacher to the charter schools of new york

What a showboat judge, all Gov Scott has to do is put the bill through again, he has all the democraps there, it will be easy!

Thank you, andreae! That is a major problem with "collective" bargaining for public employee unions. Excellent teachers are treated the same and compensated the same as awful teachers. Merit pay (ie individual bargaining) is an idea that the unions have fought tooth and nail against. How is that supposed to benefit students? If your girlfriend is a good teacher, I'm sure the students in the charter schools of NY will be glad to have her.

@Pietro. I never attack the messenger, but I will engage ideas and you don't have any. You cited a bunch of the minutia in a collective bargaining agreement that the union EXTORTED from taxpayers to prove your point. But you have no point. And you didn't answer a single one of my assertions adequately. The relevence of the FDR quote is that even he, who was instrumental in the formation of unions and organized labor, was against colective bargaining for public employee unions because they EXTORT from the public.

@Pietro, your comical assertion about municipal/government bargainers further strengthens my point. If those municipal/government bargainers were elected through the fundraising and electoral efforts of the union, they were NOT bargaining on behalf of the taxpayers they are supposed to be representing, but on behalf of the union that got them elected. That's the corruption I'm talking about and that you have failed to refute.

The democrat senators in Wisconsin weren't representing the interests of their constituents when they ran out and hid in Illinois, they were representing the interests of the union that got them elected. It's wrong, it's corrupt and when this final legal bump in the road (instituted by a democrat judge who seems to be legislating on the union's behalf rather than her constituents) is resolved it will be over. God bless America.

You cited a bunch of the minutia in a collective bargaining agreement that the union EXTORTED from taxpayers to prove your point. But you have no point.

Gee, Paul, the State of Wisconsin felt that the 'minutia' that I posted was important. Madison Teachers , Inc and the Madison School District thought that what I posted was important.

It is funny that you do not.

And how does EXPLICIT language in an AGREEMENT - that states that a person needs to VOLUNTARILY join a union and has to VOLUNTARILY agree - in writing, no less - to have dues deducted from their paycheques mean that they 'extorted' that from the taxpayer?

Trying to save face, are we Paul??

No matter what you post, or what you think, the FACTS speak for themselves. I posted ACTUAL DOCUMENTATION that proves you to be inaccurate in your assertions. I posted citations so you can look it up for yourself. I even provided the link sso you didn't have to go search for it.

Now you want to get on here and tell me that it is 'MINUTIA'?

As I posted before, Paul, I will believe my 'lyin' eyes' over ANYTHING that you have to post. Until you can refute ANYTHING I have posted (which you cannot), then what is the point in trying to talk to you?

If union dues are already voluntary, why is there a provision in the new Wisconsin law that MAKES them voluntary? And why is the union so upset about it?

Answer me that, Pietro! Since you seem to be a slow learner, let me help you out. Wisconsin is not a 'right-to-work' state. In any collective bargaining agreement including the ones you cited, there are "agency shop" rules that came about with passage of the Taft-Hartley Act. Take a look at this passage you cited in your earlier post:

"Personnel in the bargaining unit described herein who do not voluntarily become members of Madison Teachers via cash payment or who have not authorized the deduction of dues pursuant to the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 above, are required to pay their proportionate share of the cost of the collective bargaining process and the administration of this collective bargaining agreement, measured by the amount of dues uniformly required of all members of Madison Teachers and in that regard, the Board, shall deduct such amount from each payroll check of the bargaining unit personnel involved."

I pulled this directly from what you post earlier. What it says is that union membership may be voluntary, but participation in collective bargaining activities of the union are MANDATORY and the employee is required to pay dues, even if he doesn't belong to the union.

Look with your lying eyes, Pietro. You have made my point spectacularly. Thank you. Union thuggery. Institutionalized corruption. It's wrong. I stand with Governor Walker and the taxpayers of Wisconsin against these kinds of abuses.

"Personnel in the bargaining unit described herein who do not voluntarily become members of Madison Teachers via cash payment or who have not authorized the deduction of dues pursuant to the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 above, are required to pay their proportionate share of the cost of the collective bargaining process and the administration of this collective bargaining agreement, measured by the amount of dues uniformly required of all members of Madison Teachers and in that regard, the Board, shall deduct such amount from each payroll check of the bargaining unit personnel involved."

I pulled this directly from what you post earlier. What it says is that union membership may be voluntary, but participation in collective bargaining activities of the union are MANDATORY and the employee is required to pay dues, even if he doesn't belong to the union.

Nice try, Paul. In this particular case, the agreement is referencing those people who CHOOSE NOT TO BE IN THE UNION but DO CHOOSE to be participants in the BARGAINING UNIT WITH the Union. That means, Paul, that you DO NOT HAVE TO BE IN THE UNION, but if you partake in the bargaining WITH the UNION as a part of the 'Bargaining Unit', you MUST contribute to the COSTS of that bargaining.

So where does it say that participation of the Bargaining activities of the Union are MANDATORY??

That just means people like you, Paul, cannot reap the benefits of the collective bargaining agreement WITHOUT having to contribute to the costs of the process.

I see that you WILLFULLY left that part OUT, Paul.

I also see you like to twist words to fit your own narrative and save face, Paul. You are wrong - AGAIN - and the mere fact that you used the agreement that says that membership is VOLUNTARY further bolsters MY argument and further diminishes yours.

If you choose to VOLUNTARILY join the union, then dues are extracted. IF you VOLUNTARILY choose NOT to be a part of the Union, but DO CHOOSE to bargain WITH the Union, you are mandated to pay your fair share of the collective bargaining costs.

It is as simple as that.

I'll still believe my lyin' eyes over what you post, Paul. And since reading is fundamental, Paul, I suggest that you take a course of fundamental reading. Your obfuscations are just more proof that you are a shill that is still WRONG in his assertions.

Wrong, Pietro. You don't have to believe what I posted. Take a look at what YOU posted. Did you even read what you posted? You should.

What part of REQUIRED don't you understand? The passage you provided says that union membership is voluntary. It says in no uncertain terms that whether or not you a member of the union, you are REQUIRED to pay for collective bargaining. Let me show that to you again in case you missed it:

"Personnel in the bargaining unit described herein who do not voluntarily become members of Madison Teachers via cash payment or who have not authorized the deduction of dues pursuant to the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 above, are required to pay their proportionate share of the cost of the collective bargaining process and the administration of this collective bargaining agreement, measured by the amount of dues uniformly required of all members of Madison Teachers and in that regard, the Board, shall deduct such amount from each payroll check of the bargaining unit personnel involved."

It doesn't say you can opt out of collective bargaining because in a union shop under agency rules YOU CAN'T! Just to be clear, because you seem to be thicker than average, the words "mandatory" and "required" mean the same thing. Read it again with those lying eyes of yours, Pietro. Whether or not one CHOOSES to be in a union, participation in collective bargaining and remittance of dues to support those activities are REQUIRED. I challenge you to show me the passage that says that participation in the collective bargaining unit is voluntary.

I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to look at the text of YOUR OWN POST and find that it reads exactly the opposite of what you thought it did. It must be humbling and you are trying desperately to save face. But it couldn't be more clear. But like I said before, ignorance like yours seldom responds to reason; even when confronted with FACTS that YOU PROVIDED! Checkmate, friend, you lose.

What part of REQUIRED don't you understand? The passage you provided says that union membership is voluntary. It says in no uncertain terms that whether or not you a member of the union, you are REQUIRED to pay for collective bargaining. Let me show that to you again in case you missed it:

Paul, now you are being willfully ignorant and borderline assinine. Now I am going to QUOTE you in your post: "It says in no uncertain terms that whether or not you a member of the union, you are REQUIRED to pay for collective bargaining."

Does it , now?

Here is what I've posted from the Collective Bargaining Agreement for Madison Teachers Inc:

"Personnel in the bargaining unit described herein who do not voluntarily become members of Madison Teachers via cash payment or who have not authorized the deduction of dues pursuant to the conditions set forth in paragraph 2 above,

I see, Paul, that you have CONVIENTLY left out the phrase 'Personnel in the bargaining unit described herein'. That means, for those who are paying attention, that if you are NOT a part of the Union and ARE a part of the bargaining unit, then you are mandated to pay for the costs of Collective bargaining.

That also means, Paul, that if you are NOT a part of the Bargaining Unit, you DO NOT HAVE TO PAY for the COLLECTIVE BARGAINING.

So where EXACTLY does it say that a person NOT in a Union or NOT IN THE BARGAINING UNIT is REQUIRED to pay for collective bargaining?

It doesn't.

Paul is obfuscating once again, twisting the words of the agreement to fit his own twisted narrative.

I will continue to believe my lyin' eyes than what you will EVER post, Paul. Learn how to read. You are continually embarrasing yourself in an attempt to try save face.

First you say that Union membership is mandatory - I showed where you were wrong.

Then you ADMIT (in subsequent posts) that Union membership is not mandatory (contradicting your previous posts) and want to argue with me about people who are - or are not - in the 'bargaining unit'.

So why should we ever believe what you are saying, Paul?

You have conveniently left out, Pietro, the fact that participation in the bargaining unit is REQUIRED, whether you are a member of the union or not. And dues to support collective bargaining activities are required to be taken from employees, whether or not they like or agree with the union or wish to be represented this way.

I asked you to provide the passage that exempts employees from participation in collective bargaining and the requirement that dues be taken from them. You have NOT.

You are right about one thing I was unclear about in my earlier posts, Pietro. Union membership is voluntary. You keep harping that employees can be part of a collective bargaining unit and not be in the union, sure. But an employee CANNOT choose NOT to be part of a collective bargaining unit. Participation in collective bargaining is mandatory, required, whatever correlary adjective you choose to use.

You are wrong and being deliberately evasive about this. Show me the provision that says an employee can be employed and opt out of collective bargaining and not have dues extracted from his paycheck.

You can't. You can't, you can't, you can't. If you can, please do. But you CAN'T!!

If you think of your workers in this way then I think it's safe to say you will be out of business soon.

Get out now!!!!

Sorry, jsha. I sympathize. It's the Economic Theory of Looters and Thieves at work. The left seems to think they are somehow entitled to all the benefits of someone else's achievement. From what I've seen they have no idea that they are trying to kill the golden goose.

The fatigue and hopelessness you're feeling right now is exactly the reason our economy and our country are in decline. Who would want to start a business and employ people when business owners are treated as villains and second-class citizens by the people who rely on them for a paycheck?

I say close shop... Good luck getting anyone to hire your sorry ass.

wait... you have issues following rules from OSHA and rules and regulations? Yea, I wouldn't work or buy from you either... thats ridiculous, yes you decided to own a business, working within the rule of law is required when working a business, if you don't like it, close shop... its the LAW... killing people is also illegal btw, along with speeding and the rest and I don't see you complaining that you have to follow a speed limit law and its causing you to "lose sleep"

Hugin, do you even know what the OSHA laws jsha needs to follow? Do you know if they are necessary for protection or are they simply additional compliance and over regulation.

The discussion here is about a LAW that was passed. In your own words, "if you don't like it", go away.

Don-2316123 & Hugin and Munin

It's obvious that both of you are to ignorant to appreciate what this guy is going through, with all the superfluous red tape that both large and small business must comply with. Even with that, through this guys efforts, he provides livelihoods for up to 30 people. What the hell do you do besides post idiot comments? You try and open a business...let's see how far you get....aayholes.

ceo: i couldn't agree more, these entitlement minded rogues can never understand basic business facts. No wonder we are mired with lack of growth; regulations are chocking of the new businesses, taxes are chocking off investors and we still have more than 9% unemployment. Small minded want more taxes which will perpetuate stgnation of the economy. In fact 2/5 Americans don't even pay taxes, i believe i see what they are doing with their spare time, for me, i've got to get back to work.