E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSBloggers come up with a few nicknames for the procedure used by Wisconsin Republicans to vote separately on the collective bargaining portion of the spending bill:
“The nuclear option” – Hot Air’s Allahpundit
“The Cee Lo Green option” – NRO’s Jim Geraghty (via a reader)
Bloggers on both sides of the Wisconsin budget issue seemed to agree that Republicans would have been politically better off trying this tactic when the standoff first started.
Liberal blog Balloon Juice’s christian mistermix:
If the Wisconsin Republicans’ plan was to jam through the defeat of collective bargaining with a sketchy parliamentary move, they should have done it the minute that Democrats vacated the state. If that had happened, the howls would have been loud but fairly short-lived, since it’s easier to energize people when they’re trying to prevent something from happening, rather than complaining after the fact.
Instead, we have today’s trainwreck. Walker got his number one item, but he paid a huge price. He’s almost certainly a one-term governor. There’s a dissenting Republican in the Senate, and presumably we’ll hear more from him. If there’s a general strike, the union’s side of the case is now clearly outlined in the public mind. If the unions don’t strike, they look like paragons of restraint. And what about the recalls? No matter the outcome, they’ll occupy the press and public attention for the next few months.
Conservative NRO’s William Voegeli:
Gov. Scott Walker and the Republicans have been audacious, but not conspicuously nimble… The work-around of passing the non-spending parts of the bill in a separate piece of legislation, one not requiring a super-majority quorum, could have been effected many days ago, without giving the pro-union zealots weeks of free publicity.
Allahpundit at the conservative HotAir recognized the political danger of passing a bill this way, but alluded to the last time procedural gymnastics were used to pass a bill: the Democratic push to pass the health care reform bill.
There may be a backlash to doing it this way, but the backlash is already in effect via the recall campaigns the left is mounting against them. Like Ace says, probably the best thing they can do for themselves politically at this point is pass the damned thing, get it off the table, and let people cool down as it fades from the media cycle.
Exit question: Don’t you hate it when irregular procedures are used to destroy a de facto filibuster of an unpopular bill?
But liberal blogger Steve Benen at Washington Monthly said there was irony in Republicans using similar maneuvers that they complained about during the health care fight (even though both sides frequently employ such tactics). He added that in the case of Wisconsin, protestors aren’t as upset about the procedure as they are about what’s in the bill.
About a year ago, in the midst of a bitter fight over health care reform, one of the top areas of concern among Republicans was about procedure. They cared about the pending legislation, but they really cared about the process.
And so we were bombarded with complaints about discussions "behind closed doors" and "secret deals." GOP lawmakers who'd relied many times on the same legislative maneuvers were suddenly disgusted with reconciliation, deem and pass, self-executing rules, and the like. Legislation that passed through entirely legitimate means was condemned for having been "rammed through."
It's curious, then, to consider Republican satisfaction with what occurred in Madison last night.
…
To be sure, though, the point of the Democratic outrage in Wisconsin is over the substance, not the process. If there's hypocrisy on display here, it's not bipartisan.
Leave a Comment:
I think it's called "Elections have consequences and the Republican's won."
It's also called "Democracy should not ever buckle under to mob rule."
*Ditto*...at least that is what Democrats decry all of the time.
True democracy is mob rule.
Looks like the right wing crowing is a bit premature:
I mentioned earlier, the crossed-eyed weasel may think he's won the battle, but, he sure as hell isn't going to win the war!
Nice cut and paste.
Now please explain the basis of your statement. And while you are at it please explain how the democrats, by running away, have upheld the democratic process. You know the one where there are bills put forth, then votes. Sometimes you win, sometimes not, but until now option two wasn't running away.
Fiesty you have cited to a memo. Please explain how YOU think it applies here, and what the consequences will be. Also please set forth the basis of your statement that Walker is a "cross-eyed weasel" and how that statement squares with the first rule of conduct here at First Read.
" You know the one where there are bills put forth, then votes..."
And while you're at it 'old girl', please elaborate on how this might compare with, say, nonstop record use of the fillibuster to accomplish much the same result. Thank you.
Spanky - it looks to me like the Governor and the Republican Senate will have to explain - and defend - what they considered 'good cause'. They will have to defend their actions for providing notice - or lack thereof - if that notice was 'impossible' or 'impractical'.
I guess the definition of 'impossible' will be the lynchpin of this argument.
I do NOT envy the AG on this one. I for one would LOVE to see how he crafts his argument.
Why that is an excellent suggestion. DBO
Feisty please articulate the difference between a filibuster and the Wisconsin dem's decision to run away.
Which is an actual procedure, and which subverts democracy. If you contend both subvert democracy, please set forth an explanation, and be sure to include YOUR opinion as to why the Senate Dems backed off any substantive rule changes with regard to the filibuster. And while you are at it, please articulate how YOU believe the rules will be ch ages, if at all to prevent repeats of the Run and Hide strategy.
I look forward to your response.
Thanks DBO.
And I agree Pietro. But that's what he gets paid for. I anticipate something to the effect of "based upon the unforeseen tactics of the Democratic Senators, and the compelling need and requirement for the legislature to do the State's business...the actions of the Senate were appropriate and justified."
How about you?
Interesting that, every time something is posted from the sites mentioned above, the roaches crawl out of the darkness in a attempt to discredit them...
Hmmm... Now why would that be if, these sites are sooo insignificant?
It is extremely amusing though...
It's also called "Democracy should not ever buckle under to mob rule."
57% of Wisconsin voters is a pretty large mob. That's the percent that did not want the unions busted, after they had already agreed to pay and benefit cuts.
Spanky - yeah, I would love to see the AG try your argument. There is no magistrate in America that would think that was a valid argument. The first question out of my mouth, if I was a judge, would be this:
'Why wasn't this notice posted 3 weeks ago?'
Good luck with that one, Spanky.
Spanky and True American, did you honestly believe that Feisty can articulate a valid argument to present her views? No, she only joins Bev in locating from the George Soros sites, material to cut and paste, then verbally attack.
Now Feisty, why do you only verbalize negatively at anyone who opposes your views, and when the website has rule against this, why are you still here?
I can't wait to see the result of the hack on this site to identify a few of you, outlining the various handles used and to see how many are paid.
Pietro, please advise the political affiliation of the judge that will hear any case.
Might be important, no?
Plus the simple response is "we had no idea they'd run away, or when they'd come back. Just no precedent your honor."
Good times, right?
And safecraker, as I recall Feisty has been banned from here before. She's no stranger to FR discipline.
Spanky, that is your answer to the judge's question?
Are you SERIOUS??
Still, I would love to see the AG stand in front of a judge trying to argue the case like you've presented. Spanky. I don't think that any judge - no matter what political persuasion he/she is - will allow THAT as an argument.
But I digress.
If THAT is the argument, I hope the AG will have cases that can be cited to bolster that argument. It will be GREAT THEATRE to see how the Governor's actions will be argued.
Feisty: I am always amused at the challenged who try to debunk either moveon.org, Media Matters or thinkprogress. Here is the difference between those three and what the righties send around. The progressive sites have a list of citations at the end of everything they send that you can verify. When I get the trash emails from the right, none of that is available. That is why the righties hate it when you cite from progressive sites.
57% of Wisconsin voters is a pretty large mob. That's the percent that did not want the unions busted, after they had already agreed to pay and benefit cuts.
________________________________________________
So, Amy, you think 57% opposing some action, while +/- 40 percent support it, is VERY CLEARLY evidence that the action is wrong and should not be approved.
Thank you very much. I have a link below that shows realclearpolitics.coms tracking of support for Barry's ClunkerCare HCR never got much more than 40% support.
Sooooo... it must be your position that HCR never should have been passed, right??
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html#polls
Did elections have consequences in 2006 and 2008? Democrats won and conservatives whined, obstructed, blocked and denied--and oh, how they yelped (they still yelp) when President Obama reminded GOP leaders during a meeting that "I won". What goes around, comes around. Obviously Joe and his friends have forgotten how they complained about democrats "ramming" through legislation even though democrats followed the rules, had the 60 votes for cloture and passed the legislation according to House and Senate rules; they did not use "dirty tricks" despite the right claiming they did.
Damn those pesky FACTS NDD... lol
If they weren't effective, the righties would squeal about them the way they do! ;o)
Obviously Joe and his friends have forgotten how they complained about democrats "ramming" through legislation even though democrats followed the rules
____________________________________________
I haven't forgotten at all, Jody. In fact I'm enjoying the squeals from Dems immensely as the Republican's turn the tables and use the Dem tactics on them.
Payback's a real b!tch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm actually curious where the 57% number comes from. Because no one's asked me. Nor my husband, nor our friends who support Walker and the republicans 100%. Sure, it is POSSIBLE that 57% of the state's residents don't support the measure, but I don't think you can declare that as fact unless there's a pole of 100% of the state's residents (or at least those who care enough to vote on the only day that polls actually mean anything). "Representative" surveys are anything but which should be obvious by the vastly different information reported by every single polling agency. What questions are asked, how they are asked and who they are asked to can dramatically change the results. Heck, even 2 people interpreting the same poll can give you vastly different results from the data collected.
newdayDAWNING10
moveon.org, Media Matters or thinkprogress all owned and operated by George Soros or his Open Society Institute. While you ridicule Fox, you embrase this liberal group. A tag at the end of an article from this group matters?
You view your libbie sites and I will read and identify what I feel may be accurate information.
But you, Feisty and Bev are a hoot with your liberal views and schoolyard attacks.
Look up George Soros or OSI on the internet and read rather interesting information.
Like I said Feisty: when you see the fact challenged like poor safecracker post the nonsense he just did, you know why they hate the sites. Facts hurt, right? I am always amused too, at how the "teabaggers" love them some Rupert Murdoch, a man not born in this nation, but they hate all immigrants. Distorted thinking is fun! By the way, safecracker, sometime ago, I asked YOU for a cite on quote that you claim was Jefferson's, where is that?
safecracker huh? I've had him on ignore for weeks now! Same with TA & the spanky lol
They're nothing more than run of the mill trolls who follows me from thread to thread trying to 'nip' at my ankles & depositing their little 'dropping' stinking up the place...
None of them are 'worthy' of my time or attention! ;o)
To further debunk poor safecracker: (I would say embarrass, but people like him who do not know the difference between fact and fiction are impossible to embarrass.) Here is what is true: Soros announces FIRST ever contribution to Media Matters; October 20, 2010. Yep, he doesn't own it. There can be only ONE place you are getting that level of misinformation. Turn off Glenn Beck. He is playing you for a fool.
OUCH NDD - that ones gonna sting! ;o)
Nice Work!
Perhaps one day FR will require the usual snarky posters to be limited in some meaningful way. I am sure many who take the time to read the extreme BS from both the lefties and righties on this vine grow weary as I do.
Back to the topic at hand. Yes the GOP played their hand poorly on this one. If they were going to separate the legislation from a budget bill requiring the quorum, they would have been better served to do it a while back. This does not mean their position is weak. But it does mean they could have done better given the situation at hand. My bet is that we will see the 14 self deposed senators return as a result. There is little reason to continue the absence at this point.
I think you have the right idea Feisty: I have ignored the others you mention too. safecracker now joins that group.
The independent - this is my take on the situation. I also challenged Spanky on this very SAME thought process and how the 'passage' of the bill MAY be in jeopardy.
I'm torn on this one. I agree the hand could have been played better, but I don't know if earlier was the right move. It might have put the fire out a little quicker but I think it would have looked much more heavy handed. By giving the Flee Party 14 time to stop their tantrum and return to Madison for a vote, I think it does lend credibility to the action. What I think was misplayed was not announcing the vote last night after the committee meeting and calling for it this morning. The protesters in the capitol are doing their best (still failing, but trying) to disrupt the process which has created some safety and security concerns but I believe by noticing the vote, they would have more effectively forced the hand of the Flee Party. I'd have offered it up as 2 choices, you return to the Senate floor and we'll vote on the full bill with some modifications based on the negotiations that were underway or you don't return and we pass the non-fiscal measures in their entirety. The Flee Party knew they were not going to win this fight so they could have been the decision makers either by showing up and negotiating a better deal for their constituents or by staying away and proving once and for all this was never about anything other than the money they fear they will lose from union support.
Suzy, you have a very naive and limited view of what went on. Quit hating your neighbors.
I choose to berlieve that the wisconsin senate grew wary of waiting for the delinquent senators to return. Since they chose to ignore the issue, the wisconsin legislatures stopped waiting for the spoiled girly-girls to return and the rest is history as the lawyers line up to fill their pockets with taxpayer $$$.
suzy - please correct me if I am wrong, didn't you once say you were a resident of Wisconsin??
Just asking as newday (not a resident of wisconsin) is calling you out. Not saying that you need to defend yourself as newday has never learned to have independant thoughts.
Yep. I'm a cheesehead born and raised. And Newday's been trying to play that some tired record for weeks. It's the liberal mantra- if you can't refute it, discredit it. Whatever.
Good try, Suzy, but you have been discredited for the misinformation that you put out there. What has happened in Wisconsin affects ALL middle class families, and if you think you won't be in that group, you are sadly misinformed. By the way: did you hear Fitzgerald on Fox "News" gleeful about how their plan to destroy unions was actually a plan to destroy funding and support for President Obama in that state? Yep, just like we told you, this has nothing to do with budget. Now. Quit hating your neighbors, and do try to mature in your thinking.
NewDay, there is a difference between misinformation and information you don't want to hear because you disagree. Again, feel free to refute anything I've said, I'm always open to discussion but you have yet to actually make a point. I do agree that correcting the budget issues in WI as well as in many other states and the nation as a whole is going to hurt but the hurt is going to be less the sooner we start dealing with it.
One major factor that is being ignored.
This process resulted in Wisconsin citizens learning of the millions spent by out of state Republicans to buy elections in Wisconsin.
Interestingly, the majority of the out of state money came from billionaires who have never even been to Wisconsin.
Where do I find these #s you cite without backup?
I think I read the Koch Brothers or one of them donated somewhere around $46,000 all legally.
Marcos1120
If you look for Crossroads GPS or Americans for Prosperity You'll find that the Koch Brother heavily financed these organizations which support republican efforts nationwide. Actually GPS Crossroads doesnot reveal its donor though the Koch Brothers contributions are highly suspected just google these groups and remember don't believe every thing you read on the internet from the left or the right. But there is a vast source of information for those who really seek it
Perhaps they may also realize that the unions have the state collect mandatory dues so they can turn around and give those dues to the democratic politicians that they then negotiate their sweet benefits packages with. (Legalized corruption.) I for one did not know the federal government union employees have more restrictive collective bargaining rights than the WI union members. The donations by the unions have been going on for decades and the public is only now becoming aware of the path that led to the wages and benefits for public sector workers becoming so far out of balance with the tax payers that foot the bill for the largess.
Well, The Independent, maybe the states/cities/municipalities AGREED to collect those dues (which are NOT mandatory in WI unless the union member gives written permission for the Employer to do so. I have citations). Now why is that? The Collective bargaining agreements are up for renegotiation usually during the next budget year(whatever the interval is), so why not EXCLUDE that provision from the Collective bargaining Agreement?
Why HAVEN'T the cities/states/municipalities done that?
I know that the Unions donated around a million dollars to Gov Walkers opponent.
marcos1120
I know that the Unions donated around a million dollars to Gov Walkers opponent
Not hard to see why anymore huh?
Democracy happens every single day, not just on election day.
Democracy is about letting your opinion be known every single day.
Ask Iran about their fraudulent elections. Elections can be bought off. Voices of citizens speaking out against out of state billionaires who bought an election can not be quieted.
Debbie: you are in Wisconsin? How are the people responding to what the Republicans did, how is it being reported, and what is your opinion on the success of recall/
Initially, people were not paying attention.
When teachers walked out, the reactions were a bit on both sides.
As we learned of everything in this bill, people started shifting away from Walker.
Literally, thousands at these rallies voted for Walker and have voted for Republicans for their entire life. They are stunned and have vowed not to vote Republican again.
Prior to yesterday, with reports that Walker was claiming to negotiate, people were calming down.
Today, I would say 75% of Wisconsin is against Walker and the Republicans. Where I work, a handful of Republicans were gloating. They have since been told to stop or they will be fired. They forgot the owner's wife is a teacher. A private company employing 100 people and all our families will feel the impact of this.
Prior to yesterday's stunt, I would have said the recall's were unlikely (based on the negotiations progressing). Today, it's extremely likely that recalls will occur.
Thanks for the info Debbie!
Always good to get the perspective from what's happening on the ground - Keep us posted will ya?
Thanks, Debbie, for the information. And good luck to all of you in Wisconsin. You are the bulwark for the rest of the nation.
Read the local papers...The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has had some great articles as well as comments into the 1000's....
It's thumbs up for Qaddafi Billionaires in America....."destroy the middle class ranks". But you LIE.
By doing things this way, the WI Republicans may have just handed Obama the state in 2012. As for this "law", it will be challenged in court tying it up until the Democrats can have recall elections soon and in January when they can recall Walker (and pretty much every other senator and assembly person). If the Dems get enough seats, then the whole issue will be up for a new vote next year. The battle is far from over and many many $$$ will be spent on both sides.
The real story here is the union just lost their cash cow in Wisconsin. No more garnishing members wages against their will to election toadies that grant the union what ever they desire. No more forcing a person to join the union. Welcome to the real world fat cat union bosses.
yabecoo-312 - WRONG. WI Unions don't garnish member wages against their will.
SEIU Collective Bargaining Contract Section 2.2.1.A
http://oser.state.wi.us/docview.asp?docid=6998
AFCME Collective bargaining Contract Section 2.2.1
http://www.wseu-24.org/Contracts%20and%20Constitutions/2007-2009%20wseu%20contract.pdf
Govenor Walker's bill allows public union workers to keep the $500 to $1,000 most currently pay in union dues a year.
But the bill also requires most public employees to pay more for pensions and health insurance.
The cost would be $5,400 per year for a state employee who earns the average wage -- $50,000 -- and chooses the least-expensive family plan for health insurance.
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/08/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-government-workers/
Hmmm, pay the union $500 to $1000 a year to represent you in negotiations and save $5,400, or don't pay the union and you are at the mercy of your employer.
Sounds to me like those union dues were money well spent.
"WI Unions don't garnish member wages against their will"
Really? So, then why are the Unions and Democrats (sorry to repeat myself) so worked up about a law that would allow union members to voluntarily not pay Democrat , er, union , dues?
They are forced to join the union.
Bob, now you are just embarrasing yourself. You got beat down yesterday over this, and now you are back for more?
For the record, it was NEVER about the dues. The argument has been about the Collective Bargaining rights.
I think this correctly describes Bob, and it comes from a very trusted source, so I hope that they do not mind if I post it here:
"The fun thing about Bob is that you can take a swing at his pitch, put the ball right over the fence, and he'll insist he's won because you didn't get 5 bases.
He has no clue when he's made himself look stupid.
Any questions??
that pretty much sounds like Garnishment to me..............
I see that Steve, Like Bob, CANNOT READ or is being WILLFULLY IGNORANT. I will quote the post and agreement passage so that even Steve can understand it:
"Upon receipt of a voluntary written individual order from any of its employees covered by this Agreement ..."
How can union dues be a GARNISHMENT when the member has to VOLUNTARILY WRITE A WRITTEN ORDER for the dues to be deducted?
Not to mention that Steve willfully ignores the part about Employees covered under this Agreement. Which agreement are we talkign about? it is a Collective bargaining Agreement, that covers all employees that are a part of the Union. Unlike what Steve believes, people in WI DO have a choice to join the union or not. That is why the dues collection is VOLUNTARY.
If Stupidity was money, Steve, you would be Richer than the Sultan of Brunei.
I see that you too, Steve, have no clue as to when you've made yourself took stupid.
So, Steve - here YOUR sign.
And, of course, with no more collective bargaining, employers in the state of Wisconsin ARE free to garnish, misuse, mistreat workers however they please. Since the workers no longer have any voice in the negotiation. Talk about misuse of funds and power!
Why is it that conservatives seem to believe that if they say something often enough, it becomes true, whereas, regardless of how often they hear something, they still cannot understand?
Pietro, how "voluntary" is the written order when you choice is take the job by signing the order or don't take the job?
I do believe the public unions have an opt-out clause for the portion of their dues that are used for political contributions but it's amazing what the union has claimed is for political purposes vs anything else. But if you want to take a job in a union shop, you join the union whether you want to or not no matter how "voluntary" the statues try to make it.
The sanctimonious Pietro forgets that without the so called voluntary order you don't get the job. Show me a reasonable population of workers in those jobs that do not have those forms submitted. That's right, there aren't any. (I believe the beat down is in the proper corner and I am not even a GOP supporter. I just get sick of some of you lefty regulars espousing your BS propaganda day after day.) The public sector unions are well out of mainstream, out of balance with their private counterparts and enjoy protections that even the federal union workers do not have. It's an indefensible position to any objective person that looks only at the facts. It may well be a poor set of politics and cost some GOP senators and the governor their positions down the road, but the fact remains. WI public sector unions are well outside the norms and that is just a fact. The dems were foolish to nationalize the debate with a state that is so far out of balance with it's peers. Compare the new jobs creation performance in WI with the rest of the nation. It is on the decline and this is one of the principle reasons why.
Suzy, If we are talking about WI unions, I have not seen anything in the collective bargaining agreements that state what you are saying. They are saying that the admission into the Union is VOLUNTARY, as well as the collection of dues. No where does it state that you HAVE to be in a union to get the job, at least not in the agreements that I have reviewed.
Show me an agreement where that is the case and we will talk.
Sanctimonous, Independent? Really?
Like I said to Suzy, I have not come across any agreements that state you MUST join the Union (at least not in WI). If you can provide proof, then I am all ears (and eyes). However, from what I can see, you are NOT compelled to join the union unless you want to.
As a side note, Madison Teachers has a clause that a person does NOT have to be a part of the Union, but they CAN be a part of the bargaining Unit that bargains on their behalf. Of course I have the citation for this, and will share it again if needed.
The question is WHY would this be in the Collective Bargaining agreement if it is MANDATORY for a person to join the union? It debunks the 'talking point' in this case, at least for WI.
Well, Independent, we disagree here. Those 'protections' that the public sector unions have are AGREED TO by the same people who are crying poormouth right now. If they REALLY wanted to do something about it, then WHY AGREE to those conditions?
The fact of the matter is that you are being played, and you don't even realise it.
Now, about the propaganda that the 'lefty regulars' espouse every day, all you have to do is some research and prove us wrong. You can be sick of us all you want, but until you actually post something that PROVES what you are saying, then who is the one spouting propaganda?
I am not being played. The union members in WI have protections beyond their federal counterparts. That is evidence enough to prove my point and is an irrefutable fact. No further research required. So I will take your bait. You do the research and show me where there are even a semblance of non-union workers in any of these jobs, or where there is another group of unionized public sector workers that have greater protections than these WI protesters. You will not find them because they do not exist.
Out of balance are my words for the WI union protesters. And any person on this vine that supports their position is far from main stream. Then again, this is an NBC - MSNBC organization. Anything less than fully supportive of left wing liberal causes would be a rare day indeed.
yabecoo-3125166
The real story here is the union just lost their cash cow in Wisconsin. No more garnishing members wages against their will to election toadies that grant the union what ever they desire. No more forcing a person to join the union. Welcome to the real world fat cat union bosses.
--------------------
And everything else is just window dressing to the union bosses. They keep the lemmings fired up but the forced dues are where the money is to buy the politicians they need to keep the game running. Congrats to the American taxpayer for saying ENOUGH!
Begin the RECALL.
Always helps to keep in mind who the thug employee unions are supposedly defending , as the "middle class poor oppressed underpaid"...
MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only, before overtime):
136 Drivers made more than $70,000
54 Drivers made more than $80,000
18 Drivers made more than $90,000
8 Drivers made more than $100,000
Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ)
Yep, Bobby, this was already thoroughly debunked on a previous thread.
Bob, you pulled those number out of thin air or do you have a credible source?
NDD:
Here we go with the "old" DEBUNKING buzz word again. That was not disproved. It is written in the Milwaukee journal Sentinel.
Why do you guys always think that if something didn't come from MediaMatters, DailyKos, ThinkProgress, or WashPost, it is erroneous information?
First of all MediaMatters is totally left and has NEVER went after a Democrat about anything. I will put ThinkProgress in that same category.
All I have to say on this is Gov. Walker needs to watch his back, anybody remember what happened to Hoffa.
Man you had better chill with that threatening elected officials. That will get you caught up even on a little message board like this.
This wasn't a threat just a observation of how unions have dealt with problems in the past.
Hope you find the 3 letter boys knocking on your door in the morning. Can't think of a dumber thing that you could have posted.
The dismantling of America continues with this boneheaded move typical in the new Republican-led Era of Lunacy. But alas, much of this blame goes to those who failed to realize that the modern-day Republican Tea Party is nothing more than a backwards-a$$, knuckle-dragging group of neanderthals who have no problem taking our country back to the stone age. Those of you who dawdled on the proverbial fence agonizing over whether the country would be better served under Republican rule, who shied away from the Democratic legislative achievements, who refused to vote and who succumbed to the delusional, apocalyptical message peddled by these morons have no one to blame but yourselves. You failed to realize that on its worst day, the Democratic party apparatus has more good will, smarts and logical reasoning in their collective pinky toes than the entire crop of Republican lummoxes combined! Whether yours is a 2 or 4 year period of agony, let this serve as a reminder: be leery of charlatans riding elephants predicting doom!
How about Ash Wednesday Massacre, from Firedoglake!
Wisconsin's illegal and dictatorial actions signals the beginning of Class Warfare, the death of democracy and the birth of totalitarianism in the United States. This dark Lord who speaks so soft but with a heart of Venom, Gov. Walker, shows he has no respect for the rule of law as this action was done under the Cover of Darkness and not in the light of day. Hitler did this in 1933, and those who forget history will be doomed to repeat it. They want us to forget but we won't!
How long America will you stand for the raping of your land? GOP Wizards took your money, they took your jobs and sent them overseas and now they want to silence your voices. They pretend we are broke while they give big Tax Breaks to the Rich, Big Oil and Big Pharma, while robbing the middle class and working poor. This land no longer belongs to the people but to billionaires and the greedy Wealth Merchants who want to make you slaves to their greed and our children uneducated. This group does not build America, they take from America; They put their millions and billions in other countries in the guise of tax havens and tax shelters while they watch America decay and die and say we are broke! We are broke because they have transferred our wealth from the middleclass to the rich, which made them richer, greedier and stingier. To keep their small but powerful majority, they want to pit one group against another, make us hate and distrust each other while they grow fatter and richer. Don't you hate your brother/sister or neighbor because they look different or have another faith. We are One and We are stronger then they are but we must stand up now or forever hold our peace!
This is a sad and dark cycle for the U.S., but the Sky is not falling, but it will fall in if we don't stand up together and say no more; and remember, it is always darkest before the dawn!
Wisconsin's illegal and dictatorial actions signals the beginning of Class Warfare, the death of democracy and the birth of totalitarianism in the United States. This dark Lord who speaks so soft but with a heart of Venom, Gov. Walker, shows he has no respect for the rule of law as this action was done under the Cover of Darkness and not in the light of day. Hitler did this in 1933, and those who forget history will be doomed to repeat it. They want us to forget but we won't!
------------------------
I have to laugh in your face. Riddle me this lib. One party won an election and came up with a bill for a vote. One party, not liking the bill, fled the state like thieves in the night rather than do their Constitutional duty and fulfill their oath of office. If the liberals wouldn't have run like thieves in the night, a debate and then a vote would have been taken. When you want to point a finger at someone, find the nearest lib that fled like a coward. All elections have consequences, not just the ones that the liberals win. What we need is a national televised debate with the topic...Is a public sector union fair to all American taxpayers? Your side is indefensible and it would be entertaining to see the debate. I vote the zero man in the WH to debate the pro union side. Go to your top dog to defend the indefensible.
 gov. walker should be in charge of a prison,he would make a good warden. He has great ability to become a dictator,or even a CEO of Enron. Someone should return walker to his cave the sun lite has fried his brain. The republican party is blaming the working class for all of AMERICA'S problems, how sad they have become the new Robin Hood from the needy to the greedy. The republican gov, and the republican party are winning the race to yhe bottom. Welcome to the fall of the AMERICAN EMPIRE, Â
I dont understand what all the crying is about,seems to me the dems pulled the same crap with healthcare,backroom deals,middle of the night democratic barganing with no rep.s present and of course shoveing it down our throats without listening to the majority of the american people,in the words of the great nancy pisalotsti we have to pass to see whats in it and atleasst the republicans were present and not hid across state lines.what goes around comes around.I love it,watching these dems crieing about,how dare they do this to us.
So, Joe, I presume you don't have any objection to the Health Care Bill that was passed?
On Hard Ball state sen. Coggs thinks recall of Republicans will work- ROFLMAO not a chance gees get real.
The same is said about Democrats being recalled- ROFLMAO not a chance--gees get real.
Both Fox and this site are full of true believers who are blinded by their HATE!
I see this more as a win for Wisconsin Taxpayers and also the children as big education reform is coming...if the voters are unhappy they will elect new representatives. I bet the Union money that pours into the Democrats will be astronomical.
I'm actually a new American citizen and what I can tell everyone is that this country is now a "Banana" republic ... been there ... experience that .... so ... I came to where I was before ... that is my luck. Few Republicans people with money directing a country run by Democrats .. is this ironic or what?????????
We are Americans !!! best country in the world !!! I guess I am a loser now .. again...
Just stay in your house ... help each other to survive and watch how "they" fall ..................
find it odd that people in a union should fear that their performance should be judged for their continued employment and that their dues should come from their own pockets? This is a perfect example of how misguided and spoiled they have become everyone is suffering but the unions, they have suffered no lay offs or cut backs, the auto unions bailed out insted of bankrupt, all to keep the vote. the country is tired of people that get the gravy bitching that not enough for thirds
Amazing "Carlyss man"
I guess you are a true American born citizen; therefore your "gramma" should be better than mine, but I don't see that, so I believe you are a middle /low class level type of person.... who personally I don't really understand why you are involved with people who are trying to basically make you one more Republican "slave"... do you enjoy misery??? Are you a masochist?
Have fun with your new group!
dems gops, do thyr really have our best interest in mind? why do we side with either?
any decision that gets made by politicians results in some people benefitting and some people getting screwed...that's why their power should be limited
the sad truth is they usually screw a lot of people in order to benefit relatively few...
All the commotion over this issue is a waste of time and energy. WI voters will get a chance sooner or later to react to these events. They will decide either to support getting their fiscal house in order or continue spending money they don't have. Either way, it's really no one else's business! Why do people think that what happens in WI will necessarily determine what happens in other states? California will continue to spend money they don't have on public employee union members regardless of what WI does. It seems to me if the public employee unions maintain their power, the states will eventually go bankrupt and then no one will get paid. Why would any rational union member want that to happen? Public employees seem to think that the state can never go bankrupt because it has the power to raise taxes. But, think about how many times in world history people have revolted due to high taxation.
Repub's don't gloat to much. As I stated in previous posts - even if you hated the unions you don't want this stuff to pass. The fiscal bill contained a multitude of power grabs by the executive branch from the legislative branch, not to mention the functional removal of local township, city and county governments.
One of my favorites was the removal of funding for birth control and giving insurance companies the option of not supporting birth control. This includes for other medical reasons such as cramps, heavy flows, hormones, etc. unless the company buying the insurance want's it covered.
Oh, another one. Ability to sell, without any oversight or compentitive bids the power plants owned by the state and other assets.
I can't figure out why the republican legislature would go along with this, unless their goal was to break the unions and this is what they agreed to.
Collective bargaining has been removed for years in other states... even states with Democratic Governors in place.... so where are all the protest there for those Democratic Governors to restore collective bargaining? And why haven't all the state workers left those states? Could it be that not having the collective bargaining for government workers in these other states has shown that their jobs and benefits are not destroyed and they don't have to involuntarily pay dues to unions... and that all the hubbub in Wisconsin is juts the unions (not the workers) trying to hang onto power and money when their use is long since been unnecessary. The next thing I expect is a major move for Democrats to call for unionizing the military if they really believe that colleitve4 bargaining is so great and pure. What a joke and sustained demagoging by Democrats to appease their Union benefactors! Let's put some reality back into place as they did in Wisconsin and settle down and watch this all work out . Heck, the Government workers now get a raise because thy no longer have to pay Union dues! Thanks to Walker and his republican legislature for taking on a difficult embedded issue while the Democrats just tucked their tails, ran away, did not enter into the debate as they were elected to do, and simply advocated thier responsibilities. Recalls.. Start with the 14 that left the state! Maybe their mommies are proud of them!
As for this helping Obama in 2012. What did Obama do to help or assist in this latest situation in Wisconsin. He like the Gang of 14 tucked his tail, kept a safe distance away, and advocated any repsonsibility even though he promsied to " be out on the picket lines with workers." when he was campaigning. Dear Democrats, your PResident abandoned you probably because he knew this was a loser for him and he might have justify why other states don't have collecitive bargaining for their government adn everyone is just fine!!! . He has no credibility, but the Unions will support him (even as weak as he is) because they know they can get a better deal with for thier lifestyles wiht him in office.
There's a lot of states in an uproar concerning the Republicans. They brain-washed the minds of their constituents to vote for them, and now they're reaping what they sowed. It's going to be hard trying to seperate the wheat from the tares.