Joe, I hope you are right about the stock market but have you looked at the futures? It looks like a possible down day. Are you trying to give credit to Republican/Tea Party for the job numbers? The only time I hear these people speak of jobs is when they speak of cutting jobs, as in Boehner's famous So Be It quote. Bushes last month in office had 700,000 job loss and now after fighting our way out of the ditch Bush put us in, we are begining to show positive signs. I bet you just love the Pink Slip Govenor Scott Walker who has promised Wisconsin up to 12 to 13 thousands job cuts by the end of June. Typical Republican/Tea Party. Have a nice day.

The stock market futures are for speculators (gamblers). As soon as the markets open and trading begins for real, the futures are irrelevant. Any organization that hasn't had to tighten its belt for years and years can withstand a 5-10% cut pretty easily. Govts will survive such a cut and the country will be better off for it in the long run.

Seattle Sue:

You speak the truth. The GOP/TP has no ideas on how to create jobs in this country nor do they have any ideas on how to keep an improving economy to continue. When you belong to a party that has no new ideas and/or the ones you have suck the only thing you can do is try and steal them from the other party. They did this with 7 or 8 provisions of the HCR Law, they try and do it now. All they got to do is show us one bill they passed that created jobs, show us one bill they passed to stimulate the economy.

Instead all they have been doing since January is attack the reproductive rights of women, pass the repeal of HCR Law that went nowhere, attack collective bargaining, and try to pass a spending bill that will cost America hundreds of thousands of jobs, reduce revenues, stall the economy put people on unemployment, welfare, food stamps, medicaid etc, etc, etc. Just about everything they can to NOT create jobs but to kill them instead, NOT stimulate the economy try to slow it down, stall it, or even move it backwards.

Why, because they see if they can cause the economy to fail and force unemployment up is gives them a shot at he White House because they will blame it all on President Obama.

From Bloomberg:

"The gain in payrolls followed a 63,00 increase in January and compared with the 196,000 median estimate of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News, Labor Department figures showed today in Washington. Employment rose in manufacturing, construction and temporary help agencies, while state and local government payrolls slumped."

A good jobs report, in line with forecasts...and best of all, the jobs being created are private sector jobs. The Republican midterm landslide victory certainly isn't hurting private sector job creation or the nation's unemployment rate, is it?

That doesn't mean we won't see a handful of First Readers who aren't current, asking "Where are the jobs, Mr. Boehner?".

No problem.

It's to be expected.

Thank You Mr. President for all of your hard work and the better job improvement numbers.

Joe in Albany

Finally, a decent jobs report. Not great, but, decent. The stock market should be up nicely today, which makes my 401k and IRA’s smile.

Looks like the 2010 election is finally kicking in with the economy.

Have you lost your mind?

Surely you don't think that in 58 days, 9 hours, 50 seconds, and x number of seconds the Republicans can stake claim for this improvement. The Republicans have NOT produced a job bill .

Got that nada, zilch, none, zero?

Please get serious!!!

http://whenarethejobs.com/

Since November's midterm elections, the nation's unemployment rate has fallen from 9.8% to 8.9%...nearly one whole point.

And, the President's job approval numbers have risen as well.

Go figure.

Thanks, Bev-

You always hit your mark...right on cue.

Thank you again, Mr. President for all of your hard work and the jobs improvement numbers. I know that the Republicans-Tea people are a major deterrent to jog growth. However, your steady hand and mind is keeping us on the right course.

Tell us bag, just what have the GOP/TP actually done to create jobs? Besides taking credit for programs they were against. The GOP/TP is like the kid sitting in the corner we all knew in school, never saying or doing anything but when something good happened he was at the front of the line taking credit for it.

Give it a rest Bag we all know your that kid. Oh and JA1, no joe. You all just can't stand it that things are actually getting better. You praying for the country to fail didn't work, so deal with it.

Wow, Mo-

I thought I had pushed Bev's button.

Pavlov is validated once again.

Conditioned reflex, indeed.

I'm just glad I didn't say "Palin".

lol

:-)

Mixed Bag

Thanks, Bev-

You always hit your mark...right on cue.

Thanks, I try

The GOP/TP has not done one thing to move this country forward. Show us one bill they passed that helps create jobs in this country? JUST ONE. Show us just on bill the GOP/TP has passed that helps an improving economy continue to improve? JUST ONE. There are none just BS lies from the right trying to take credit becausePresident Obama was so far ahead of them they are floundering in their own crap. They tired this with the HCR Law when they creatred their proposal and literally copied 7 or 8 provisons right out of President Obama's already passed law.

These guys are parsites tying to regain some momentum by lying through their teeth. The only thing the GOP/TP has done since January is attack the reproductive rights of women, attack the rights of the gay community, try to change several constitutional amendments to their benefit like taking away the right to vote for Senators, citizenship etc. They come up with phony spending bills that they cloak as cutting the deficit while on the other hand they are giving huge monetary rewards to corporations and the wealthy and making the Middle Class pay for it.

They campaigned all year on JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, improving the economy and (I love this one), listening to he people. They have failed on each one of the three and failed big time. Now they are faced wit the reality that America has caught up with their BS and are not longer buying it. They have taken their voices to the streets with rallies last week in virtually every State, with crowds that people have not seen since Viet Nam in opposition to their ideology. They overreached and got their hands slapped. Where this movement will go is anybody guess but right now they are no longer buying the GOP/TP rhetoric.

They want to see results not political rhetoric. Every day lately and even in some of the recent polls, we are seeing that the GOP/TP is loosing ground. Some States want to recall the very GOP/TP people they just voted in.

The tide appears to be changing, will it hold, I do not know. I would like to see the DNC get off the arses and open their mouths and shut down the constant barrage of lies from the right. That needs to be done.

Amazing what a "shellacking" can do to attitude. Obama has taken a page from the republicans on that business is good for america, not bad. Way to go conservatives!!!

PIM: Thank you Republicans for taking over the House and by doing so creating a business friendly environment for American business without fear of Democrats and Obama being able to bully through their job-killing and growth-hindering legislation

Perhaps you haven't been following the news... The Republicans have been focussed on cutting health care and social programs, abortion, granting concessions to oil companies, taking away collective bargaining...

Not jobs. That focus has been the President's.

Mixed Bag

Wow, Mo-

I thought I had pushed Bev's button.

Pavlov is validated once again.

Conditioned reflex, indeed.

I'm just glad I didn't say "Palin".

lol

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RVZ555

Bev--

"What gains we as country have made are being stripped especially for minorities. The red confederate states want to turn the clock back to pre-civil war days. Actually, the faux liberty loving tea baggers want to go back to pre-colonial days."

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Paranoid much? Provide examples where anyone wants to go back to slavery days, or whatever long ago era your conspiracy-addled mind believes.

Two years ago, she published a book, One Nation Under God, in which she argued that the United States was ultimately governed by the scriptures. that is Dracion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/16/texas-schools-rewrites-us-history

I'm Not paranoid just in touch with reality

education

What kind of corrections? Some pretty big ones!

• Remember that thing called the slave trade? Well, it turns out what you learned was all wrong, because it wasn't some evil buying and selling of human beings, it was simply "Atlantic triangular trade."
• The Civil Rights Movement created "unrealistic expectations of equal outcomes" for minorities in America. And Martin Luther King, Jr? Pretty much a Black Panther.
• Thomas Jefferson? He was an insignificant, God-hating heathen who made sure that church and state remained separate.
• Senator Joe McCarthy was right to go after the Godless commies in Hollywood and Washington. He will be vindicated.
• The right to bear arms is essential to democracy and kids really need to learn this in school.
• Sir Isaac Newton didn't know @!$%#. We have military technology to thank for America's successes in science. So please, take the time to write Lockheed Martin and let them know that you appreciate everything they do for America.
• Along with military technology, America can only flourish economically through "minimal government intrusion and taxation."
• Capitalism was once a great word, but has been dragged through the mud by liberals. We now call it "free enterprise."
• The Israel-Palestine conflict? Blame the whole thing on a bunch of dang fundamentalist Muslims.
• Moses had a greater influence on the US Constitution than Thomas Jefferson did.

http://gawker.com/#!5540483/meet-the-crusader-behind-texas-textbook-whitewash

voting i.e. redlining, literacy tests, polls tax

Tancredo says Obama won because we lack a ‘literacy test before people can vote in this country.’

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/05/tancredo-obama-literacy/

Confederate flags

domestic and police brutality

racial profiling

discrimination in workplace,

"The Republicans have NOT produced a job bill ."

____________________________________

Bev, govt jobs bills don't create jobs (other than govt bureaucrat jobs), the private sector creates jobs.

Please get serious!!!

PIM-

As Charles Krauthammer has said, last November's midterms weren't so much an election...

They were a restraining order.

How can you say Obama is "business unfriendly" when business are raking in unprecedented profits? You can't have it both ways. If the government was stifling business, business would be stifled, which is obviously not the case.

Republicans have done nothing which affects jobs at all, except to propose budget cuts that will also cut jobs. As far as I can tell nothing of any substance has actually passed both the Senate and the House, has it? The only possible rationalization that can be used to say the the jobs increase can be attributed to the midterm shift is that businesses can be reasonably certain that the Republicans will not cut their government handouts.

IR

Great post below, thank you. Unfortunately it will fall on deaf TP ears. You know how they are when you present them with those pesky facts.

On another note. I've noticed that the quality of the field of possible GOPTP candidates reflects the TP's warm embrace of mediocrity and the general disdain and contempt they display towards education and educators. If the GOP has any brains they'll cut all ties with the TP and relegate the ones that managed to get elected to the back of the bus where they belong. This country might just have a fighting chance if they do that.

Please Insult Me!

But anyway. I'll play along:

Thank you Republicans for taking over the House and by doing so creating a business friendly environment for American business without fear of Democrats and Obama being able to bully through their job-killing and growth-hindering legislation.

Your turn.

I suppose since they blamed the President for things that happened before he became President, it's only natural for them to try and take credit for things they had nothing to do with.

bob-1805084

LouieJ,

Kenyan Socialist Marxist from Indonesia home of no Boyscouts, Manchurian School for future presidents with foreign names in a country where blacks don't play baseball...

Obama is the kid of a Kenyan Socialist Marxist who lived years in Indonesia, was raised by grandparents in a private prep school on an island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and didn't set foot on the the Continental United States until he went to college.

Typical American upbringing and social understanding of America - hardly.

Just to set the record straight, Louie.

Since we are setting records ......Mr Obama must be the first 10 year old starting college. No wonder the man is so brilliant. Or maybe you thought Punahou School was a college. Or maybe because Hawaii is populated with a lot of brown skinned people, it should not be considered to part of the USA and you must live in the 'continental' to be considered "American". He was brought up by grand parents from the 'continental' US, but that shouldn't count.

The only and most important thing, is to point out that he is DIFFERENT, he is not ONE OF US. The most verifiable proof? He did not play baseball. How dare you consider yourself an American if you did not play baseball.

IR:

That is a great post. The problem is the people let these people lie without holding them responsible in the least. They know this and will continue. Another good example is Huckleberry this week on President Obama. He knows he was lying but did it anyway. Why? Because there is no way to hold him responsible, he just trys to walk it back by making more lie.

Another example this week is the riots in Madison. There were no riots and the Video that many on the right claim as proof on this board was not a video of Madison, but of an older rally in CA. There are no palm trees in Wisconsin as there were in the Video.

The GOP/TP is so out of touch with American morality and ethics they just lie and lie. They do not care and even think lying is no a virtue. That is how far this country has fallen and we are not at the bottom of the pit yet.

Amen, IR *stands and applauds*

Thanks for telling the truth about what goes on. And thanks to your wife for her many years of service teaching young people---I'll bet she changed some lives. It is so frustrating to me to see this argument of blaming all of our economic woes on unions taking traction when nothing could be further from the truth.

Excellent, IR. What the middle class right doesn't realize, their wages and benefits are next. Eliminate collective bargaining and private business no longer has a competitor, no longer needs to offer better pay and benefits to attrack employees. Koch Industries, big oil, and all the other big corporations will simply hold secret meetings to "fix" prices and wages. Conspiracy theory? Maybe but they've been moving this direction for 30 years--get rid of unions, get rid of democrats. Get rid of union wage standards, keep the workers down and under their collective Big Business thumbs.

Hi IR,

GREAT Reporting.

IR, another very excellent and well delivered post. Bravo.

Independent Redneck Va.

The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions

Thanks for posting the truth. I posted it before but I guess it got loss in the multiple threads.

Rick Ungar has a good website. I stumbled on it last week. This guy really breaks it down.

Let's put it this way; Scott Walker effed up.

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker budget-repair bill did NOT leave collective bargaining "fully intact"

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-his-budget-repair-/

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker pants are fire with this lie.

I like the way Wis Senator Lena Taylor says what do you expect for a high school graduate? You know he got kicked out of college for cheating. The Koch brothers really have him boxed in.

Indy redneck - In my perusals of the collective bargaining agreements, I saw the same thing. BRAVO to you for posting this. Between you and US NAVY, you have pretty much DEBUNKED 95% of all of the 'talking points' that we are seeing concerning Unions, Collective Bargaining and the contributions that Public workers make to THEIR retirement.

It is also good to see that you recognise the tactic as it really is - a PAY CUT - with the Governor NOT having to negotiate with the Public workers. So how is that NOT violating the Collective bargaining agreements that the Governor is DUTY BOUND to negotiate in good faith?

EXCELLENT posts by both US NAVY and Indy Redneck today.

OUTSTANDING.

Bev,

I wouldn't be too quick to "like" Lena Taylor. Take a listen to her rant on WLS this morning and you will see why we in Wisconsin might be more apt to support Walker as opposed to her craziness.

IR et. al FR libs - rather clueless on your conclusions aren't you? Take away private sector revenue to the state budget what do you think will happen to state government employment? How will the state meet payrolls, healthcare premiums or pay out union negotiated pension plans? Think the taxes assesed on the government workers and paid by them will cover the shortfall by the private sector no longer contributing to the revenue stream?

Your posts are usually thouight provoking, but not today. Enjoy your weekend.

American if you can't do no better than repeat a bunch of clueless B.S. like that I find it hard to believe that you would ever have a thought to provoke. Have a good weekend your self there Sport

IR, I don't really have a problem with unions and I thank your wife for her service. My brother and many of my cousins are teacher's. The problem I do have with several of the teacher's unions is that they often don't have the best interest of their student's. What union represents the student?

Thanks IR, for another very interesting and well written post. I noticed there were none of the right wing fear merchants posting any nonsense against it. Again thanks for the information a real easy read.

Lisa I do want to point out that my wife worked for 30 years in a right to work state so she never had the benefit of having union support. Some of the horror stories I can tell along those lines I have purposely left out. In response to your specific question It would be my opinion that the Parents would serve the function of the students advocate. My wife would tell you that yes there are bad teachers just like in any profession. Most of them don't stay in the system very long not having the heart that it takes to be successful. Most good teachers (even union teachers) do not want a bad teacher that does not serve their students in their midst and I think many folks would be surprised at how much assistance they could receive with removing a bad teacher from the good teacher's if they would just set down and talk to them and make their case. Hope that helps some and Thank you for joining me today and passing on a thought or two.

Thanks devie noticed that my self. I just figured that they were all Yankee's and my Southern accent confused them. Thanks for stopping by and have you a good weekend now you hear

Just like clockwork.

Lefty post....Peanut gallery follows with numerous accolades. lol......lol

This shyt is comical and it isn't fiction.

You would think this redneck from Va. was second coming. I bet he goes back and continuously refresh all day until time to really imagine at the Dew Drop Inn......lol.........such a frikken joke......

ITM, ya jealous.... being a fellow Texan... let me say that I appreciate your post today, lol.

Keep coming back brother.

Tunde -ITM is positively GREEN with envy, along with Stevie - the booby twins - NJNB - JS1 and the rest of the bunch who are friendship' challenged'!

Just my 0.02 but, green is not a good color for any of them!

Yellow is much more flattering on them! ;o)

IR, Pres Obama and Jeb Bush are in Florida today discussing alternatives in Education. They are visiting a school in Miami that was one of the worst in the state. Out of the box thinking turned the school around. Charter schools turn things around. Parents want more choice in the schools. The only thing that stands in the way are teacher's unions.

lisa I would not say that unions are the only thing holding charter schools back. That pretty much falls into a somewhat false narrative that has been pedaled for several years. I'll say again my wife worked in a right to work state for her whole career. What would you say is holding the Charter schools back there 'cause it certainly isn't the union. Maybe you need to go back and investigate that deal a little more instead of taking such a absolutist position. I believe you'll find that just like most problems that need solutions in life things are just a little more complex than that

Thank you for posting the Rick Unger article, IR. I have posted the link several times this past week, but not that many people actually went and read the article. Posting the full article is much better.

I watched "Waiting for Superman" this week, and it's not the fact that they are charter schools that makes them so much better, but that they think outside the box and have developed teaching techniques that work better for kids. I don't know why public schools can't employ some of those same techniques.

Heartlight I know it's late but I hope that you get back over here cause this is a discusion that you and I and lisa could have that could be very productive to all. There is no reason why public schools can't use these techniques. Early in my wifes career she did and much of her continueing education was in some of the same techneques that the Charter schools use. However about ten years before her retirement the national cirriculum changed from learning to teaching students how to pass a test so thier systems could get thier funding. Basically this changed our whole public school education system and is the reason that she retired and simply substitutes rather than taking a permenant position. Loves the kids, loves to teach but hates how this makes her try to do her job. If you are interested in continueing the discusion or getting a little deeper in the subject leave me a message back here or somewhere on one of my posts next week and I'll sit down with her and transribe some of her thoughts on this and the Charter subject for all. About this she is the true professional I'm just her spear carrier so to speak.

Great post, IR. Another lie exposed- don't they understand that "cry wolf" only works once on anyone capable of critical thought? But then again... that's not the audience Fox plays to. They go for the confused and angry folks looking for someone (anyone) else to blame for the consequences of their providing a deregulated opportunity for greed to wreck a thriving global economy.

cjschnack

Bev,

I wouldn't be too quick to "like" Lena Taylor. Take a listen to her rant on WLS this morning and you will see why we in Wisconsin might be more apt to support Walker as opposed to her craziness.

cjschnack

I hope you get a chance to read my reply you. I got online early yesterday since it was such a nice day when my grandchildren called I decided we'd go the mall and their Chinese all you ear buffet.

First of all, I really don't need to listen to WLS. I stopped listening to them years ago. WLS is akin to FOX LIES. Don & Roma is despicable to wake up to. Don Wade wants to be a baby Rush Limbaugh.

Does he still rufflee his papers like Rush?

Dunno I can't stand Don Wade like I said I have not listened to WLS in years. I used to like Roma when she was pretty liberal in her positions. Then she finally came out and admitted they were married. Since then she has echoed her husband's Rush Limbaugh's wannabe anti-liberal bias. Roe Conn is a joke. Yet, they are million dollar mouths WLS choose to cut in pay; in order to be retained.

Lena Taylor...

Even though her campaign pits her against a well-funded incumbent and hyperventilating right-wing radio hosts and bloggers who seize on even the smallest of her mistakes to make her seem not credible, you are absolutely wrong. She ran against and know those who voted for him realize he is a Koch brothers flunky. They have expressed their buyers remorse to Senator Lena Taylor

Wisconsin is NOT more apt to support Walker as opposed to her craziness, as you put it.

Wisconsin Unions Favored Over Walker in Showdown. 42% say they side more with the public employee unions, while 31% say they side more with the governor
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1910/poll-wisconsin-unions-favored-governor-scott-walker-president-obama-gop-leadership-government-shutdown

In the 23rd paragraph of a 24-paragraph article. the fact that new polling data shows American strongly support collective bargaining is today considered an afterthought inside the Journal newsroom.

[snip]

Amid the union protests in Wisconsin, the poll found that 62% of Americans oppose efforts to strip unionized government workers of their rights to collectively bargain, even as they want public employees to contribute more money to their retirement and health-care benefits.

The results suggest that public opinion may be tipping a

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704728004576176741120691736.html#articleTabs=article

What's crazy is the righties like you who migrate here to rant untruths.

Gov. Scott Walker lied. He NEVER finished his undergraduate degree. He got kicked out of college for cheating; therefore he is a a lying, cheating, high school graduate.

He lied about the "budget repair bill" if you think again this is synonymous with cheater and liar; then I think the righties who don't are spewing craziness.

Gov. Scott Walkerin contending that collective bargaining would remain fully intact, Walker mixed civil service protections with collective bargaining rights.

They are not the same.

Collective bargaining rights...

Two sections of state law -- one for state workers and one for local government and public school employees -- give public employees the right in Wisconsin to collectively bargain.

The law issues a mandate to both the employer (the government) and the collective bargaining unit (employees represented by a union).

More importantly...

THE TWO SIDES MUST "MEET AND CONFER AT REASONABLE TIMES, IN GOOD FAITH, WITH THE INTENTION OF REACHING AN AGREEMENT" ON WAGES, HOURS, FRINGE BENEFITS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0111.pdf

If you can't see this effort by Gov Walker as union busting and the road towards Tyranny (absolute rule); then I would say there is a whole lot of retardation and craziness going on the right wing wing world.

Also

A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Likely Wisconsin Voters finds that , while 48% Strongly Disapprove just 34% Strongly Approve of the job he is doing

Wisconsin Governor Walker: 34% Approval Rating 48% Strongly Disapprove

Friday, March 04, 2011

Rasmussen tends to tilt Republican that means more trouble for Walker whose only been in office 2 months.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_state_surveys/wisconsin/wisconsin_governor_walker_43_approval_rating

Today...

IR - choosing to ignore following the money trail isn't going to change things or is ignoring the private sector taxpayers going to advance the liberal cause or pay government bennies down the road.. And please spare us the fear mongering of how we need union controlled teachers and office workers. I will stick to supporting the protective services as long as retirement pensions are carried out only after age 59 1/2 and that healthcare also follows the private sector rules

IR - choosing to ignore following the money trail isn't going to change things or is ignoring the private sector taxpayers going to advance the liberal cause or pay government bennies down the road.

American - I am glad you mentioned about the 'money trail'. So can you explain how throwing 1500 people out of work is going to HELP the revenues of the state? Wouldn't those 1500 people file for - and get - unemployment insurance that is paid out of - wait for it - the STATE's coffers?

Would it not be more advantageous for a State - that is already running deficits for whatever reason - to make sure that the people who are working pay taxes so that the deficit(s) can be dealth with?

It would also seem to me that to raise REVENUES - which are needed in the state of WI - you would want to PROTECT the REVENUE stream(s) that are giving you the most return for your money.

Or is this all a fool's errand?

The thinking the Governor has seems a little backward to me.

I'm Just sayin'.

Frank,

Also the Dec & Jan numbers were adjusted by +31k and +27k respectively for another 58,000 jobs.

The unemployment number is perplexing to most economists. It is clearly not following the normal CW trajectory. One area that is not tracked, that I know of, is the number that decided to take early retirement. A friend of mine did this last year at the age of 60.

Please don't tell me Frank that you are one of those who give the Republicans credit for any improvement in unemployment solely by virtue of winning the House in the midterms.

In my work I deal with small businesses and the people I talk with aren't making hiring decisions based on who controls the Congress---they are hiring due to need for employees to meet demand for their goods/services---i.e. the willingness of people to buy what they are selling. This is why I don't understand layoffs of public employees as a way to balance budgets--to me it hurts the entire economy to take people out of it who tend to spend their wages immediately.

Dennis..good comment...hadn't thought of the early retirement factor.

Steeler Fan...No...I'm not. I honestly think government's impact on employment is vastly overstated. I'm saying that in general, businesses tend to like divided goverment. The 90's are the best example of that. To me, in the current political makeup of the government, I don't think either side is going to be able to take sole credit / blame for much of anything. But that doesn't mean they won't try!!!! ;-)

Steeler fan says;

"This is why I don't understand layoffs of public employees as a way to balance budgets--to me it hurts the entire economy to take people out of it who tend to spend their wages immediately"

This Patriots fan has a question: Did you get whacked in the noggin like Big Ben Rothlisberger, or do you actually believe that idiotic statement?

The public sector is largely a leech on the productive private sector. The fewer public employees, the better off we all are. Unless you want socialism and a European Nanny State.

Kinda like having the NFL where all teams would be "equal" at 8-8...no one's feelings get hurt.

Bob,

What Steeler is trying to say, and you seem to misunderstand, is that right now in this economy laying off public employees will drive down demand for goods/services, preventing small businesses from hiring which affects the jobs market.

I really don't expect you to understand that, but if you need me to dumb it down more, i certainly can do that.

Oh yeah, and public employees don't leech on private sector or it's productivity. By spending their money creating demand, they actually spur private sector growth.

Bryan -

I'm not an economist, so let me see if I can dumb it down for myself as well as Bob.

My younger brother is a federal employee somewhere in the Defense Department. I'm not sure exactly what he does because he had a falling out with the rest of the family years ago and we rarely talk. Maybe he's one of those "non-essential employees" we always hear about, though I don't think so, because he still has to go to work when they get a half inch of snow in D.C. But I know he owns a house. He pays contractors to do work on that house. He eats out and goes to movies and sports events. He gets his hair cut and takes his clothes to the dry cleaner and picks up prescriptions at CVS. He buys furniture and clothes and the occasional new car and computer stuff and groceries and cat food and unfortunately way too much in the way of cigarettes and alcohol. But the point is, he buys all of these from the private sector. I repeat, he takes his paycheck, as Steeler Fan suggested, and puts most of it into the PRIVATE sector. Or is Bob suggesting that the government pays for his beer and cat food too?

So Bob - when you cut all these government jobs (and then of course blame President Obama for the resulting increase in unemployment), how will all of those private sector workers he's currently supporting be affected? Don't you think they'll just miss him and all his fellow "leeches" just a tiny bit?

Frank:

I honestly think government's impact on employment is vastly overstated. I'm saying that in general, businesses tend to like divided goverment. The 90's are the best example of that. To me, in the current political makeup of the government, I don't think either side is going to be able to take sole credit / blame for much of anything. But that doesn't mean they won't try!!!

It seems to me that it's the Republicans that are doing most of the overstating, as they claim that nearly every law the Democrats were able to get passed was "job-killing." The President has no control over a lot of major factors that impact the economy, like the budget crisis in Greece or the uprising in Libya. I suspect the current downturn in unemployment is mostly due to the business cycle, but I thin Obama deserves credit for keeping the economy from plunging into a Second Great Depression with his stimulus bill, the measures he took to save the auto industry, and various tax cuts and credits. Just because the Republicans must always tack the word "Failed" onto "Stimulus" doesn't mean the stimulus was not a success.

Dennis and Frank - another factor not mentioned is the continuing roll off of those who have maxed out their tier 3 and 5 unemployment and are no longer eligible for unemplyment compensation. I expect this roll off to continue thru the next year. No consolation for those affected, I am sure.

Joanne, bryan, steeler fan and others, let me dum it down even further. Government paid employees require a continuous revenue stream from the private sector for their paychecks.

Private sector job losses cuts down the size of this revenue stream making it impossible for the government to meet payroll. Just as falling sales (revenue) makes businesses require costs to be cut, so will the government have to cut jobs/funding as their tax and fee revenue fall.

The federal gov't can print more money to meet payroll but risks inflation, while state and local government can only sell bonds, increase taxes or cut jobs/program funding to meet the shortfalls.

Joanne - bobs use of the word "leeche"s may have been a little harsh to sensitive soles such as youirself. Just as many of the FR libs words are even more so, but the analogy holds true in either the private or public sector.

Too many people today (public and private) think that they are entitled to good pay, benefits a parking spot in front of the store and a job that will last untill they choose to retire. Job security will always be based on the ability to perform. Not just your own performance but also that of your coworkers and the workers in other industries.

As for missing government workers, I doubt it. I can wait a little longer in line to pay taxes and fees. If the parks grass grows a little longer I can tolerate seeing only one doing the cutting, instead of two (one watching, the other working. I can even tolerate waiting for my street to be plowed when the DOT recommends not driving or towing services are suspended. can't plan for all of mother natures possible scenarios. If my kids have to have a class size of over thirty, so what?? I lived thru it as well as many of my contemporaries. Most setbacks in life are temporary, the government worker is not limited only to the public sector for employment.

The only government workers that I would miss would be in the protective services, they should always, without fail, be the last ones laid off.

american, how about when your trash doesn't get collected, your sewer system doesn't work properly, your water makes you sick, your daughter gets e coli from poorly inspected food, your diet drug damages your heart, your son gets asthma from your dirty air, the bridge you're driving on collapses under you, and potholes in your road destroy the suspension on your car, the plane you are flying in crashes because inspections were skipped and there weren't enough air traffic controllers to handle the volume due to lack of personnel?

Frank,

Here's a short snip of how they figure the unemployment rates. It's all pretty complicated. I've included a link to the site so people can get a clear picture on how it all works.

Some people think that to get these figures on unemployment, the Government uses the number of persons filing claims for unemployment insurance (UI) benefits under State or Federal Government programs. But some people are still jobless when their benefits run out, and many more are not eligible at all or delay or never apply for benefits. So, quite clearly, UI information cannot be used as a source for complete information on the number of unemployed.

www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm#why

Here's how this works folks.

The Republicans took over the House in November. They also made significant gains in the Senate. Their prospects for the White house get better every day.

By the mere fact of the Republican's esteemed presense, the business owners of America finally saw some hope of a recovery, some light at the end of the Obama tunnel. They have reacted predictably by starting to hire again.

I can understand that mentality, since the GOP blamed President Obama for things that happened before he took office. They have been trying to take credit for everything good since November 2nd.

I suppose they created a lot of jobs with their women bashing bills.

Heartlight - are you considering scenarios that assume a strike or an extended delay? If not consider the following...

My family doesn't generate enough trash to warrent a must have weekly pickup, we recycle a lot.

Sewer backup call a plumber. Mainline backup call the city. the squeaky wheel in city politics usually gets first attention. After all I wouldn't be the only one affected.

Bad water. City is on the hook to ensure public health and can set the priorities for action.

E coli from bad food. Why is this any different from any other day and are federal inspectors civil servants or union lackeys? Again public health issues are prioritized by the government.

Bad drugs and other health issues consult your doctor and lawyer.. The FDA, to the best of my knowledge is civil service, not union.

As for road and bridge repair the government subcontracts most repairs except perhaps temp pot hole repair. Again the squeaky wheel will determine priorities.

Air traffic controllers, hire more, pay overtime or reduce the number of flights. BTW - don't recall any flights crashing in the early 80's when reagan fired them all for going on strike.

Repeating from above...

The only government workers that I would miss would be in the protective services (law enforcement, correctional and firefighters), they should always, without fail, be the last ones laid off.

Drive by

Civil disobedience is fine, so long as you are willing to live with the consequences of your behavior. If you get arrested because of your behavior, you will have to deal with the cost and inconvenience of court and a trial (depending upon the severity of the actions). If your employer finds out that you've been arrested, for activities on a day that you called in "sick", you may have to deal with any potential employment issues as a result of your decisions. I have no problem with civil disobedience, again, so long as you are willing to live with the consequences of your actions. The only one that you mention that I don't see as civil disobedience, is the first item identified on your list. I'm not a big fan of elected officials abdicating their responsibilities, simply because they don't like the program. Stand up and be counted, that's what you were elected for. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose I think it will be interesting to see what happens in Wisconsin on both sides of the issue. Recalls are pending for both Republicans and Democrats, count the end results, and we'll see who "won" that issue.

Good food for thought, DBO. Yes, civil disobedience serves a useful purpose. Draw attention to events that usually unfold without much drama; point out the tyranny of the majority. Cheers to the Wisconsin 14 and the Indiana 37 and to every protester in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, New Jersey who are saying simply this: enough!

Living in L.A.

I think there will clearly be no "winners" in the aftermath of Governor Walkers attempt to destroy the public sector unions in Wisconsin. As it stands right now, the governor is not bargaining in good faith, and as Independent RedNeck points out is actaully LYING about state employee contributions and the need for those employees to contribute more of their hard earned dollars to fill a budget gap that he created by forgoing tax revenue when the state was "broke".

Bryan,

That's why the "won" was in quotes. I won't pretend to agree that the Govenor was lying, (I don't know him or whether or not he was lying) anymore than I will pretend to agree that all things Democrats do are good, and all things Republicans do are bad, or vise versa. Neither you, nor I, have a vote in the process, we don't live there. My point I think was that the folks in Wisconsin will make that decision.

Living in California, I'll have to say that our government is out of money, you can call that broke, or you can call it whatever you want, in either case, there's no money to pay the bills. Whether you are a Republican (me) or a Democrat (probably 60 % of the state) doesn't matter, no money is no money, and like everyone else, the state is going to have to learn to live within it's means. I think it's telling that Governor Brown (here) is discussing reducing state pension benefits, and he's the one that started the process in his former incarnation as Govenor. Granted that was 30 years ago, but perhaps he and everyone else in California is now reaping the crop that we sowed.

Must be some good news this morning in the headlines. Good 'ol Me First Bill has crawled out into the sunlight for us all to enjoy. (didn't take long for Joe and Smiff to appear, either, did it?) Gonna be a rough one on here again today, folks. But ain't life grand??

Great post Bill. We'll improve our chances of recovery when the feds finally get serious about deficit reduction and spending cuts. Looks like the Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio state governments got that message, now we just have to pound that same idea into the dense skulls of the Democrats in Washington.

But ain't life grand??

___________________________________

Yes, it is. As I said, I expect the stock market to make my 401k and IRA's smile today. And even if they don't today, a future without lefty liberals Dems in charge of everything is still bright.

With Akaka out of the running in HI, how many Dem Senate seats are in play in 2012 with the Republican's needing only 4 wins to take control??

Bill,

Nobody writes a corporate fairy tale like you.

It is ironic that you have spent the past two years explaining to us that every decision that the President made was wrong, and now, when it turns out that you had no idea what you were talking about, you come in and give all the credit to Donald "Declare-Bankruptcy-and-leave-us-all-holding-the-bag-when-his-brilliant-plans-don't-pan-out" Trump as the hero.

What a load of bull.

The notion that a company that has created 50,000 jobs has 'done their part' and won't be creating any more is a bit antithetical to the whole CAPITALISM concept, don't you think?

And creating the kind of wealth the Donald deals in really requires at minimum a college degree,...but with all the cuts to education and teachers - sadly, our work force is lagging behind.

And how ironic that Bill First is extolling private sector job growth while MOCKING public job loss. I mean do these folks want smaller government or not?

Yes,...what we have here is another 'failed' effort to communicate.

Bill in Fairfax is a poor "witness" to history. Isn't that right "FOUR ENGINES"? Think of Federal employees as the referees of the game we all play. Should the refs work for free? Or be paid well enough to make it less likely that they can be "bought"?

Republicans certainly have a winning platform in their new "reduce the federal budget" mantra. I say new because the previous mantra was "drill Baby Drill," (before the Gulf spill ruined the environment, )and let's not forget "We must fight the terrorists over there so we don't have to fight them at home" (which cost us a trillion dollars so far and stuck us in Afghanistan.)

If it's simple, abstract and wrong, it's the perfect Republican bumpersticker!

Well there's Mr. 'Me First Bill'... We were getting concerned there buddy!

I see the 'clues' you're so deperately looking for are still on 'back-order' and have yet to arrive!

BTW: NJNB did in the bargain basement with a abacus! ;o)

Bill I can make a suggestion ...do not consider writing as a career. You are at perhaps a tenth grade level if that.

Hey Feisty, how is San Diego? Did you get the stuff for the Mardi Gras Party tonight at the Dew Drop? Looking forward to what you pull together!

Hey Clara - Sitting on the rooftop, gazing at the ocean & sipping a latte' as I write! *pure bliss*

Probably won't be able to make it to the DDI tonight - mini-me has other plans to tear up the town! ;o)

If it was anything like last night - L@@K out! lol

I did drop off the 'Obama beads' over at the DDI before I left - rest assured, no one will be disappointed!

Raise a few for me - I'll be doing the same back at you!

The notion that a company that has created 50,000 jobs has 'done their part' and won't be creating any more is a bit antithetical to the whole CAPITALISM concept, don't you think?

Clara – umm, the piece isn't meant to be taken literally. For example, I never really spoke with The Donald. But you knew that, right?

Well there's Mr. 'Me First Bill'... We were getting concerned there buddy!

Feisty – so glad you missed me!! I'll try to return again soon, but not until I finish my GED. Gotta raise my game to a 12th grade level, doncha know.

Joe in Albany:

Yes, it is. As I said, I expect the stock market to make my 401k and IRA's smile today. And even if they don't today, a future without lefty liberals Dems in charge of everything is still bright.

Now that's odd. My 401K has been increasing in value steadily for the two years since President Obama took office after the beating it took from the Wall Street crooks that Bush let run amok for 8 years. I wonder why Joe's 401K only started increasing in value after the Republicans took the house and started passing anti-abortion laws and stuff?

Bill, Fairfax VA:

Clara – umm, the piece isn't meant to be taken literally. For example, I never really spoke with The Donald. But you knew that, right?

Too bad for Gov. Walker that he didn't know he hadn't been speaking to the real David Koch.

Houston - yes it was to bad for walker falling for the deception. Guess walker really didn't know the Koch bros. after all.

JoAnnaSmith1,

Just a few facts about collective bargaining. Public employees pay for their retirement with money out of their own pockets. All unions put money into pensions from wage allocations, that means they could have just put it on their check. All public employees have taken wage cuts for the last two years, I know because I have negotiated some of those agreements. Now I don't know what you do for a living, but it seems to me that you are a very envious person, plus you don't understand that almost every industry is funded in part by tax dollars. Should those people have a right to bargain?I'm talking about the Insurance, Oil, Health, banking, Professional Sports, Education(public and private), Real Estate, etc. Your reasoning is faulty. Everyone should be lifted up, not beaten down. We are getting seriously close to losing the middle class.

Bill in fairfax - another brilliant post for friday! Kudos! seems that last fridays post about FR libs "clulessness" didn't take hold. humour has always been a good vehicle to provoke thought. as for the poster saying it could have been written by a tenth grader, perhaps.Perhaps even by a fourth grader, but they don't have to look for work, their parents are required if not by a sense of obligation to create thinking, well rounded productive citizens then by law to follow their own parents lack of responsibility and selfishness.

Please do keep up your posts and enjoy the weekend.

BTW - your sword has indeed been sharpened up this week.

Clara, so what type of degree did Edison have, Steve Jobs or Steve Wozniak, how about the founder of Facebook or Google. Then we have Carnegie, Henry Ford and many, many others. Think that was all luck? or just someone whohad a dream, an idea and pursued it.

Education has never meant automatic success, just a means of opening up more doors, the rest is up to the individual.

american-2051576

Houston - yes it was to bad for walker falling for the deception. Guess walker really didn't know the Koch bros. after all.

Yes, but he was intimately familiar with their money. That's why he was so eager to take 20 minutes out of his busy schedule of union busting to talk to one of them and spill his guts about he had considered using "trouble makers" to disrupt the protests. A very important man like Walker doesn't confide that sort of thing to any riffraff who wants to talk to him.

Joe, Akaka will be replaced by another Democrat. Count on it.

american, by failing to list any Wall Street execs without college degrees - you pretty much MISSED the point I was making. In response to your remark to Houston, Scott Walker may not have KNOWN David Koch; but his eagerness to be entertained by him and take a call by him sure spoke volumes about his DESIRE to know him better.

Oh, and Bill - While you and I have apparently come to some level of understanding on this board; please be assured that I don't ever confuse your posts with something factual enough to be taken literally. It is possible for two people to use sarcasm compatibly and simultaneously. Judging by the votes I received,...it would appear many others understood the overarching point of my post.

Is this where I am supposed to bow in deference to your substantial wit? Consider this a Carnac moment, oh 'Great' one.

Clara - sorry that you missed the point entirely. A degree of any type does not mean success (your post 7.5) concerning donald, it is but a door opener into the corporate world of working for someone else. The ones who go out on their own only need the ability to define a product that others want to have and are willing to pay for.

As far as Walker is concerned, what politician (L or R) hasn't perked up their ears when the rich or powerful come knocking or vice-a- versa?

BTW - I don't consider donald trump to be a wall streeter. Real estate mogal, yes. businessman yes!

Houston - what politician isn't intimately familiar with $$$. Was the $43000 that koch allegedly contributed any different from the thousands collected from others for his campaign?

Would you say the same about obama or your own home state politicians accepting the same amount or more?

I say allegedly because that is the amount I heard in previous posts on other blogs, an amount I have not personally verified.

DBO:

He is something alright. I think you are being too kind to him. I was thinking more of a man with a mustache.

well, some would say that refusing to compromise or adjust your position is ALSO a HIJACK to the Democratic Process. Of course not those with the Power,...for them - it's just business as usual.

Oh, and is it extortion or racketeering for Walker to 'mail' the pink slips after he's stated a 'tit for tat' price? I guess the legal system will have to decide. It can't be good for Mr. Walker. He looks like a real boob, licking his lips over that California trip he's earning with the Koch brothers.

Using RVZ's logic, if the 14 democrats should be prosecuted for hijacking the Wisconsin process, I think the republicans in the U.S. Senate should be prosecuted for hijacking the Senate by filibustering, blocking, denying and delaying every nominee and every piece of legislation proposed. The GOPTP Senators may have been in the room but everything they did for two years was the equivalent of "hijacking the democratic process." Hold 98% of Americans hostage to get billions in tax breaks for 2%, and the list is very long. Today, the GOPTP claims elections have consequences but in 2008, they did not think that.

Don't forget, Jody, Maine's own Olympia Snowe bargained down the Democrats, in the name of bipartisan compromise, including removing the public option, and then stood with her Party and voted against the bill she had a hand in misshaping.

Jody,

I had this discussion with Anna Molly earlier this week. Whether you like what they did or not, the Republicans didn't run away, they followed the rules of the House, and the Senate, to delay, obstruct, and impede the Democrats agenda. In the process, it appears that the Senate Democrats caved, didn't force the Republicans to fillibuster, and allowed the Republicans to succeed beyond their wildest expectations, and to gain some relevance beyond what they otherwise might not have had. Who's fault is that? I really don't think you can honestly call it hijacking, if the rules of the Legislative body are followed. Now let's turn to the Wisconsin Democrats. Where in the rules of the Wisconsin Legislature does it say "If you don't like the program being proposed by the majority, and you are in the minority, leave the state". I asked that question of Anna, no response, do you have one?

I don't think they should be prosecuted, nor do I believe that the Indiana Democrats should be prosecuted. What I do think, is that the folks that elected them should take a real close look at who they elected, and decide if they support that decision, or reject that decision, and vote accordingly in the next election, or the recall elections, whichever come first. I expect that the people of Wisconsin, (and Indiana) will make the decision that's right for them. I don't live there, I have no vote (obviously), but as I told Anna, if the Republicans in California did that (not go to Illinois, probably Arizona), I'd be hard pressed to vote for any that left. Stand and fight for your principles, don't run away, regardless of which party you are, and regardless of how dismal your prospects look.

I agree with you Living in LA, but you miss stated the out come. It will be the GOP/TP that will have to face the voters, and I don't think the out come will be what you want. We'll see who gets recalled in Wi. I'd bet it's the GOP/TP. All polls show the public against your party big time. But do keep spinning if it makes you feel better.

Gov. Walker knows perfectly well that in fact his stand about unions' collective bargaining has absolutely nothing to do with his state's deficit. He's already won the economic face-off, and what he wants to do now is break the unions.

There are a number of outright lies circulating here about the public employee unions in Wisconsin. Among them (with a great nod of thanks to Anna Molly for her more detailed responses on the same points):

1. The unions are coercive. FALSE.

Membership in the unions is VOLUNTARY.

2. The unions are forcing the state to deduct dues from teachers' pay - and using taxpayer money to do it. FALSE.

Direct payroll deducation is VOLUNTARY.

The union dues are paid out of workers' earnings - it is their money and their choice about how to use it.

3. Teachers are overpaid, don't work a large part of the year, and demand that the taxpayers provide them with "free" bloated pensions. FALSE.

Teachers earn less than their private industry counterparts in Wisconsin. Considerably less.

Teachers must work year-'round to keep their certifications, and often take second jobs to maintain their households. Many work late into the night and over weekends, especially if their jobs include coaching, advising student clubs and programs, or such subject areas as band, choir, and drama.

Teachers' pensions are NOT "free," either. It's called "deferred income," a trade-off for lower pay levels so that their pensions will be available in their retirement. The average Wisconsin teacher pension is $19,000 per year - hardly "bloated." By enrolling in the pension program, teachers and other public employees are not permitted to collect Social Security, even if they made contributions from the earnings of second jobs.

What Gov. Walker is doing now is similar to the famous gangster movie scenes, when the crook takes a hostage, holds a gun up and says, "Don't make me do this! If she dies, it's YOUR fault, coppers!"

The governor knows perfectly well that his position is untenable, and that in accord with other times in American legislative history, the State Senate Democrats are exercising the right of a minority party to withhold a quorum from unacceptable oppression by the majority party.

The entire country disagrees with both the principle and the measures forwarded by Gov. Walker. His threats pose a risk of escalation of the conflict in his state, and certainly threaten the future of the Republicans in at least Wisconsin.

A PS to LA: Until the late Jesse Unruh and Bob Moretti changed the rules, the California Legislature often saw members of both parties, when in the minority and faced with a serious legislative defeat, break the quorum by decamping. At that time, simply leaving the chamber was enough to break the quorum.

They used to do so by simply getting up and going to the bathroom, or taking a drive over to Frank Fats' for a drink and some genial conversation with lobbyists. Sometimes they'd stroll down to the old U.S. Grant Hotel, too. A messenger when let them know when the opposition leaders agreed to table the consideration, opening room for negotiations on the issue, and then they'd go back.

Sorry Mo - the 14 democrats will have to face up to the voters in wisconsin for failure to represent their constituents. You may think that they won't, But I guarentee that any of their political opponents in their re-election campaign will gladly point their failure out.

Mo,

Spinning? Really? Somehow, suggesting that the voters of the impacted state make the decision regarding representation is spinning? Maybe you're right, maybe it will be the GOP that pays the price, if so, the voters will make that decision as well.

John, I didn't know about that, but it was before my time (1960's) in California. Jesse died in 87, so I was here for that time, but not while he was in the Legislature. In any event, down the street, in my mind is a little different than out of state. Again, I wouldn't be likely to vote for someone that was unwilling to perform their duties, but that's my opinion, perhaps not the opinion of the folks of the great states of Wisconsin and Indiana.

An interesting aside for any of you that are interested. In the U.S. House of Representatives, a simple majority is considered to be a quorum, and a quorum is assumed to be in place, unless some member actually calls for the quorum to be proven. Isn't it wonderful that we have an independent set of state rules that are created by each state to best typify the personna of the electorate. If all states had to follow the (apparent) rules of the federal legislature, then the departure of the Wisconsin Democrats wouldn't have made any difference, the Republicans could have voted on a majority rules basis, and this whole opportunity for discussion would have been moot.

Civics is interesting, even when you're not in a civics class. Back to Wisconsin for a moment, does the action by the Republicans (I think currently it's a proposed action) to declare the Democrats in contempt constitute an offense that can be prosecuted? If you are in court, and declared to be in contempt of court, the judge can (and sometimes does) remand you into custody right then. If there is a supoena issued that requires their presence, will the state of Illinois honor it, or ignore it? I don't know the answers, and am not looking for a partisan response, if you know, I would appreciate enlightenment.

Thanks,

LA, your question is a good one. I'm not at all familiar with the rules of the Senate in WI, so can't answer that one. However, you reinforce an ancient, unbreakable requirement of politics: KNOW the rules!

I can say that if Gov. Walker sends private security people to grab the Democrats from out-of-state, he and the hired hands will be liable for felony Federal kidnapping charges.

As a complete aside, I knew "Big Daddy" Unruh, Moretti, Moscone, Willie Brown, Feinstein and Boxer, and a slew of other colorful state and local characters. I started in politics as a teen in the early 60's in CA, then actually got a paying political campaign job in CA in the 1966 gubernatorial primary. Those experiences provided a wonderful store of cocktail-party anecdotes about those guys. Not for here, though. Maybe I'll share some tonight with the buds at the Dew Drop Inn Mrdi Gras parety.

Living in LA, the point is that the GOP repubs were "in the room" but hijacked the democratic process by abusing the rules to achieve a blockade; their goal was to see Obama fail and to heck with the people or the economy. I find that attitude to be disgusting. Even one of their own party said he was disgusted with that tactic while the American people suffered. It seems that hijacking the US Senate is acceptable when the GOP hijacks democracy but it is unacceptable for democrats to do the same--their goal was to buy time, to allow Wisconsin citizens to understand what was happening. The people of Wisconsin and the nation support that view. It is about time the middle class started fighting back and the Wisconsin 14 reminded them that change, indeed, starts from the bottom up. If the other side fails to listen and is unwilling to compromise or negotiate, then "civil disobedience" is the only option available.

Jody,

If the Republicans followed the rules, regardless of whether or not you believe them to be abusive about it, how was the process hijacked? Again, the Democrats would have been well within their rights to have required the Republicans to fillibuster, but Senator Reid opted to concede the issue. That seems to me to be a failing on the part of Senator Reid, and I suppose, the Democrats in the Senate. I will freely admit that the Republicans did everything in their power to impede the Democrats, no question about it, but they acted within the guidelines of the rules as agreed to by both parties. A fairly telling commentary, no one opted to radically change the rules of the Senate fillibuster when they had the opportunity at the beginning of the current year.

The Democrats of Wisconsin didn't follow any set of rules, they went to Illinois. I'll grant you, it's an effective tactic, at least at the moment, but I'm somewhat sceptical about it's long term value. If and when they return to Wisconsin, it's not just the public workers, and unions that they will have to convince that they did the right thing, it's their entire constituency, including the taxpayers that are going to either recall (in some cases) them, re-elect them, or send them packing. I'm not a fan of the choice, and as I said earlier, if the Republicans in California went to Arizona, I would have a very difficult time voting for any of my Representatives that did that.

I guess the distinction for me is whether or not you followed the agreed upon rules, or (in my opinion) you abandon the people that voted for you, all of the people that voted. I'm not sure how many people are in Wisconsin, and I'll grant you that a substantial number turned out for the protests, but I'm still going to be interested in how it turns out on the recalls (if they happen on either or both sides). I'm going to reserve judgement on whether or not the people of Wisconsin support that view, certainly the unions do, but polls are transitory, and to be honest, not something I pay much attention to.

Thanks for the discussion.

The Democrats of Wisconsin didn't follow any set of rules, they went to Illinois. I'll grant you, it's an effective tactic, at least at the moment, but I'm somewhat sceptical about it's long term value. If and when they return to Wisconsin, it's not just the public workers, and unions that they will have to convince that they did the right thing, it's their entire constituency, including the taxpayers that are going to either recall (in some cases) them, re-elect them, or send them packing. I'm not a fan of the choice, and as I said earlier, if the Republicans in California went to Arizona, I would have a very difficult time voting for any of my Representatives that did that.

Living in L.A, I disagree with your conclusion(s) in this matter.

It seems that the Dems in the WI Senate saw the deck stacked against them. So what would have happened if they stayed? We would not be having this conversation right now. Actually, I TRULY believe that Gov. Walker and his people GROSSLY underestimated the Dems. This 'Budget Repair Bill', I believe was supposed to be a 'no-brainer', mainly because the Gov. KNEW he had the votes to get it passed. What he DIDN'T consider was the REMOTE method of derailing this program. The Gov. Figured that the Dems would just 'show up' and take their drubbing because they were outnumbered.

I am likening the Governor's mindset to the Generals had during the Vietnam war. They expected an enemy that would fight like the Germans did; what they got was an enemy that KNEW they were never going to prevail that way and invented new ways to beat the Americans. By digging tunnels and 'popping up and ambushing' American soldiers, the Viet Cong leveled the battlefield, even against overwhelming odds against them.

And we know how THAT situation turned out.

Sio are the Dems who are not available heroes or goats? I guess it depends on which side of the political spectrum you are sitting. What you CAN say is that the Dems that fled to Illinois are DEFINITELY making sure that THEIR constituent's interests are being looked after. We are talking about it, are we not?

SO can we DEFINITELY say that the Dems are NOT 'following the rules'? An argument can be made that the are - and still continue to follow the rules. The rules state that for a bill to be passed, that a quoroum needs to be present, and that quoroum should consist of at least ONE representave of each party. So by making sure that a quoroum is NOT achieved, can you argue that the Dems are NOT following the rules?

Like the Viet Cong did to the Americans in Vietnam, the Dems are doing to Gov. Walker in WI - leveling the playing field.

Pietro,

I have an early a.m. doctor's appointment, so this is probably my only chance to catch up. I'm not a fan of their choice, nor would I be a fan of the Republicans in California running away to Arizona. For me it's as simple as that. It's not a political calcuation on my part, it's a principle, stand and fight, or run away. I know the old adage, "he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day". I don't quite think this situation is applicable to that adage. I noticed this morning that there is some movement on the part of the Wisconsinites, it appears that they are in discussions about returning home (WSJ I think), try Real Clear Politics, they've got it linked.

I'm not sure if you have the quorum rules accurately stated, I read them to be 20 members, not necessarily any of them being the minority party. Could be wrong, didn't really examine it all that carefully. Heroes and goats isn't the question for me, responsible actions on the part of elected officials regardless of party is. You mention that the Dems are representing their constituents. Are their constituents only the union members in the State of Wisconsin, or are their constituents the entire populace of the state? Following that logic, it would appear that either you or they believe that only the union folks are important, what about the remaining (pick a number, I don't know what it is) 80% of the population, don't they deserve representation at all times? Let's extend that behavior to the U.S. Congress, would it be okay for one party to abandon their responsibilites at any time, or should they stand and fight? It seems that the Republicans in both Houses of Congress were distinctly outnumbered, and had essentially no hope of winning any battles, but they fought on, and managed to derail, or at least delay, the Democrats agenda. They did it within the rules, by particpating, and maybe you don't like the way they did it, but they didn't abandon their responsibilities, and go to Canada.

Interesting choice of comparisons in any case, Viet Nam was a disaster in so many ways, there were a great many lessons learned from it, but I don't think that one of them was to abandon the political process. As a matter of fact, a huge number of people here in the U.S. became politically active as a result of the war, they took on a fight that was apparently (initially) unwinnable, and by participating, changed the course of this nation. Gotta love the hippies, at least, you gotta love'em if that was part of your (my) generation.

Have a good day.

Steven:
Well said: Excellent post.

Steven, DE:

Very astute post, Kudos. Not to mention that you named all my favorite movies. Many of them were ahead of the times but looking back they could very well be like reading the History of some countries and society in general.

Excellent comparison, Steven, Delaware.

Steven -

And here all this time I thought one of my friends and I were the only two people on the planet who'd ever seen "A Boy and His Dog". I'm impressed!

Curious, though - since I think I saw it 14 times (on the big screen, of course) and still haven't figured it out - where would you put "2001: A Space Odyssey" in your analysis?

JoAnne in PA

Although Clarke wrote about aliens placing the monolithes across the galaxy, I felt that the movie had a spirital meaning.
In that respect, it would not fit either.
I liked 2010 for finishing the story.

Just like the Dew Drop Inn. or DD as The nasty one puts it. The liberals live in a Fantasy World...

steven in de - Taking quite a leap in trying to sell a point by mentioning actors and their beliefs with respect to a obtaining a utopian society...

I find it telling that the lead actor is either Charlton Heston or Mel Gibson, both very conservative in their political views.

It is very obvious that man has a long ways to go to reach such a society as you describe in your "good" movie examples. I am reminded of H.G. Wells story of "the time machine" where the surface dwellers had every need met until the 'morlocks' got hungry. Ever wonder what books the time traveler took back with him?

As I look at todays world, I see that man's individuality and exceptionalism will never allow such a society to exist for any extended period of time. Even the small societies of the Amish, Mennonites and others have challenges based on the very nature of mans individuality.

Nice try though. The ability to dream has always been a vital part of Americas exceptionalism.

american,

So you saw the irony also. Good for you!

Jody:

Great way to end the week.

Great wrap-up, Jody---happy Friday to you. I was disappointed in Mike Huckabee's lies this week. I wonder if it means no woman can ever be President because she wasn't a Boy Scout or would Girl Scouts be enough. (Clara--you may be leading the future President!).

Here in Pittsburgh we don't really have an off-season from football--after all, we have coaching decisions, the draft, pre-season, etc. but I have to say I am very put off by the whole NFL lock-out situation. There are people in this country with really serious economic circumstances through no fault of their own and these billionnaires and millionnaires are arguing over how to divide vast wealth and crying poor.

Hi Steeler Fan,

Huckleberry is outraged that Natalie Portman appears on the Oscars while pregnant and not married. Perhaps the Republicans will have hearing on this issue.

Jody -

Excellent summary. In terms of the continuing devaluation of teachers and education, if I were a really suspicious, cynical, paranoid type, I'd think it was all a vast right-wing conspiracy to ensure that the next generation of voters is even lower-information and more easily manipulated than the current bunch who allow the Becks and Limbaughs to tell them what to think - you know, the ones who jump on here by the hundreds every time there's a topic even remotely related to the President's origins to proclaim loud and long that they have PROOF he wasn't born in Hawaii because their neighbor's aunt's best friend's co-worker's cousin sent it to them in a chain e-mail.

And speaking of Hawaii, thanks for pointing out that despite his claims to the contrary, Huckabee did not "mis-speak" about the President growing up in Kenya. Huckabee may be a lot of things, but he's not an idiot, and he knows as well as anyone else that the original comment always gets a hell of a lot more media attention and leaves a much more lasting impression than the later "retraction" ever does. Well, at least with those same low-information voters, which is exactly who he was pandering to. He said exactly what he meant to say.

And hey - don't even get me started with the NFL situation. Like the President, I have way more important things to worry about than a battle of the merely filthy rich vs. the obscenely filthy rich - neither of whom care in the least about all the thousands of people who work the concessions and security and parking lots and stadium clean-up and local bars and restaurants that they'll be putting out of work while they argue about who deserves to be even richer. Sigh.....I used to be a huge sports fan. But that was back when I thought it was about.....well.....sports. Silly me.

Ah, well.....as you say, spring is coming in Iowa. And as First Read says, "don't write off, say, a Santorum who may decide he'll be the lone voice talking social conservative issues -- because it just might be the way to get a ticket out of Iowa." Tell you what - Steeler Fan and I will chip in to pay for that ticket to get Santorum out of Iowa for you, as long as you don't send him back here. Deal ? :)

Jody,

Really enjoyed reading your post. Very insightful. Keep it up.

Enjoyed your post, Jody.

If you haven't seen it, you should watch Jon Stewart's show from last night, Thursday March 3. You can find it online. Great piece about education and teachers' salaries.

jody - still waiting for the republicans to announce. Why??? thinking about abandoning obama for the right conservative candidate?

Did so luv your comment on education spending. K-12 education spending has consistantly grown over the years and our k-12 students continually fall lower on the scale of being educated with respect to the rest of the world. Their is something fundamentally and structurally wrong with our k-12 educational system and it isn't $$$.

But I pay taxes. Ever stop to consider how long a government employee would have a job based soleley on the taxes they contribute?. First year after private sector funding disappears, every employee contributes 25%. Government funding goes on.

Second year, damn, revenue for salaries are only 25% of last year. Well, that is ok next year will be better so this year everyone needs to tighten their belts. The greedy banks, automakers, cell phone providers and medical practisioners and grocers can just wait for payments, affter all I pay taxes, next year will be better. Government funding struggles to go on but they sell bonds to the government employees.

Third year, Oh my, revenue has again fallen to only 25% of last year, but I am a government worker paying my taxes every year. My union says I have rights and a pension and what!!! My dues are past due? How can that be??? I pay taxes! I really, really do! The government prints and print more money, distributing it everywhere.

Fourth year, say buddy can you spare a dime?

RVZ:

Let me know when you think of something original to say for yourself. You are not nearly as funny as you think you are.

P.S. MSNBC is a corporation so they like other corporations do what is best for themselves and their advertisers. Not a tough concept unless you are a pre-programmed paid comment bot like yourself.

I'll bet those 192,000 people are pretty excited today, Nash!

And wait for the Republicans to take credit for the jobs----just because they were elected in November this has apparently freed the business community to hire people.

Therefore are you saying finally you will hold Obama accountable for his policies and his actions? Good or bad. Who will you credit when the job numbers turn south?

Tony:

The "hold Obama accountable" talking point is just a lot of hot air in my humble opinion.

It is a nifty way to completely abdicate the Congress of their responsibility to do anything other than collect re-election money and posture for cameras.

The simple truth is that the President has done a hell of a lot with the limited power that he has. The problems he has faced were waiting when he arrived, many for decades before he was elected.

So all this analysis of "Obama" is just a smokescreen. "Obama" will be judged by history, meanwhile, I need the government that I elected and pay with my taxes to do their damn jobs . . . and that's everybody . . . not just the man at the top.

RVZ. The real fruitcakes are the right wing zealots who think the Fox Network is "Fair and Balanced"

Steeler fan:

The Republican Party's ability to take no "personal responsibilty" for any of their screw ups, and show up to take credit for any success when they have done nothing but tell lies and complain for the past 20 years is truly a sight to behold.

P.S. Hope you have a great weekend!

Nahville, no problem with that statement. Just apply that to the years Pelosi and Reid controlled congress and stop claiming that it didn't matter because Bush had veto power.

RVZ, frankly speaking, even though it does put news that is not As Far right leaning, it is still an extremely corporate backed entity. Most of their advertising comes from the Obscenely Rich right wing businesses and in order for them to stay in that market they have to follow the directives from the money people. Almost every bit of our mainstream media is extremely tilted to the right wing, conservative agenda, Fox is just the absolutely worst of them.

I applaud Canada for totally disallowing Fox News to air in their nation, they have a Truth In News law that totally excludes Fox, Limbaugh and other rabid right wing talk/radio shows. Yes, they have free speech, BUT, blatant lies are disallowed and actionable in their courts. Keeps their media MUCH more honest. Remember, Fox News Corp won the right to lie in the Florida Courts, as a matter of "Free Speech". We NEED to reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine and institute our own Truth in Media laws. Fox would go out of business and Limbaugh would no longer be uncontested in his extremist, lying drivel that has so fired up the shrinking right wing, uneducated masses. Old Huck should be hit with a Libel claim from President Obama for his outright lies against our President: He Knew Better And Lied Anyways, and has lied again trying to talk his way out of his original lies.

The Republican and Tea parties should call themselves what they really are: Lying Fruitcakes With No Real Attachment To Reality Beholden To The Corporate Dollar That Bought Their Position Via Lying Media!

Tony,

Once President Bush initiated two wars, its kind of hard to "legislate" your way out of it, no?

And even though you would like to casually discount it, the TRUTH is that without enough votes to override a Presidential veto, the Democratic Congress was basically empowered to stop any ADDITIONAL over-the-top right wing foolishness from being implemented, not initiate new policies.

And that's the truth.

Patrick, you really are brained washed. All of the MSNBC hosts are liberal socialists and some communists by their own admission. Really fair and balanced news from that bunch.

FAUX "News" should be required to spend as much time as is required to correct the record. If it takes 100 hours of programming to undo 2 hours of their lying, so be it. When their audience can pass a test confirming that they do accurately understand the facts, and that they had been misled, FOX can go back to calling itself a news outlet.

Thats what I thought, Bush is responsible for his terms in office, which I agree with. Trouble is Obama is rsponsible for his term, which I sure hope is limited to one. It is his polices over the last two yeas that have failed to accomplish what he said would be the result of those policies. Great leadership on his part, just blame Bush. Give giving him a pass.

Tony:

The difference between President Bush and President Obama is that we can judge President Bush on the outcome of 8 years in office, and President Obama has had only two.

It may turn out that all your dreams of President Obama being an abysmal failure will come true . . . but he hasn't had time to do a President Bush level screw up yet, sad to say.

Keep rooting for the worst . . . there is still alot of time for your dream to come true!

P.S. When you are ready to graduate from comparing personalities to analyzing policies based on effectiveness, look me up.

Truth is, it is a favorite ploy corporate media ploy to get us all on a "team" (left, right, Bush, Obama) so that we will use "team colors" instead of "common sense" to make our decisions. Instead of holding "corporate people" responsible for their actions, we blame the "guvment", which is really just representing these same corporate folk.

Sadly that approach hasn't worked out so well . . . so we had better move towards reality based solutions or we will all be here having the same dumb conversations and seeing no results.

Joe Scarbourogh is a liberal? 3 hours of programming each morning and somehow I missed that?

BUSH had eight years to find and defuse the economic timebomb; he failed, and Obama has been stuck cleaning up his mess.

Tony. You do live in a fantasy world. Its like saying the fireman is responsible for the fire that the arsonist began.

Tony C. The governors, mostly GOP, will be to blame, they refuse to raise taxes on millionaires but have no problems laying off teachers, fire and police. As Boehner puts it, if cuts costs jobs "so be it." I would also remind you that it was the very policies you scorn that prevented the country from going over the cliff. If the GOP had their way in 2009, we'd still be in the ditch they drove the economy into and the way they're governing now, they'd like nothing better than to drive us back into the ditch--in the naming of winning the White House.

Sounds like a plan to me, Nash---take credit for all the good that happens and blame others for the bad! And do none of the work--that's a good gig.

Am working all weekend but it is supposed to rain here so that's Ok.

WOW, did you know that according to FOX news video of protesters acting bad, that Wisconsin has palm trees. I learn something new everyday.

RVZ:

So, in your world, MSNBC is a non-profit organization?

Corporations sell what people want to buy to make money.

Pretty basic.

Job1:

WOW, did you know that according to FOX news video of protesters acting bad, that Wisconsin has palm trees. I learn something new everyday.

Yeah, those palm trees are something they won't show you on MSNBC on account of the liberal conspiracy to hide the fact that Wisconsin has such a balmy climate. That's why so many people watch Fox: to get important information that the liberal media won't tell them about.

Nashville, I never mentioned Obama's personality. I could not care less. His policies and socialist tendency is what I have a problem with. To propose a 2012 budget with a 1.1 trillion dollar deficit given the debt level equal to our GDP is what I have a problem with. No budget for 2011 is what I have a problem with. Not leading and waiting for the Republicans to advocate spending cuts so that he can blame the Republicans is what I have a problem with. His theory of redistribution of wealth and social justice taking precedent over everything else is why we continue to suffer economically.

RVZ555

You miss Feisty putting you in your place.

Go figure Job1 - they bitch when I'm around and they bitch when I'm not! I must really get under their skin! ;o)

Someone's pathetic alright - but it's NOT me!

There's no pleasing these miserable SOB's! lol

Nashville - last I checked the government only consists of three branches. Executive, legislative and judicial. Nothing about a "corporate" branch. I live in the United States of America, State of Iowa appears you live elsewhere. so address your concerns elsewhere or as fiesty might say, where someone cares!

Tony. "liberal media" is as big a myth as "Fair and Balanced" But I do agree that we hear way to much about who is or may be running on the republican ticket. And no matter how much oil we drill here , or anywhere else, the American consumer is going to pay through the nose.

In case you missed it unemployment is down, thanks to Obama's leadership, the only thing that can screw up the recovery, is if the teabaggers get their way.

Does that mean you are going to hold Obama accountable when the number does not improve enough to matter? Spending two years blaming the last guy who held the office doesn't show leadership in business or government. We have a 14 trillion dollar debt and a 14 trillion dollar GDP. You want to make a bet on real job growth? Don't be so quick to congratulate Obama. Fiscal responsibility is the answer. Don't be too quick to put down those that understand where we headed if the spending doesn't stop.

If conservatives had any fiscal discipline, they would not have blown through the surplus left by Clinton and accumulated more debt than all the previous presidents combined.

Obama has had to deal with the crappy hand left him by republicans, and it will take time to finish the job. That is why Americans will reelect him for a second term.

Tony C-2383666

Would you agree that when Bill Clinton left office in 2000 we had a budget surplus of 46 billion?
Would you agree that George W. Bush cut taxes, invaded Iraq and passed Medicare PArt D (a gift to the insurance industry), in the belief that these surpluses should be spent instead of used to pay down the deficit? From Factcheck.org:

The Clinton years showed the effects of a large tax increase that Clinton pushed through in his first year, and that Republicans incorrectly claim is the "largest tax increase in history." It fell almost exclusively on upper-income taxpayers. Clinton's fiscal 1994 budget also contained some spending restraints. An equally if not more powerful influence was the booming economy and huge gains in the stock markets, the so-called dot-com bubble, which brought in hundreds of millions in unanticipated tax revenue from taxes on capital gains and rising salaries...

(even) under accrual accounting, the annual reports showed surpluses of $69.2 billion in fiscal 1998, $76.9 billion in fiscal 1999, and $46 billion for fiscal year 2000. So even if the government had been using that form of accounting the deficit would have been erased for those three years.

This is 2011. We need leadership in the White House. These history lessons and the blame game may may you feel good. But Obama has been in office for two years and guess what we will be no better off after the next two years. I know it is Bush's fault, just ask Obama. The midterm elections made a difference and is providing a positive result so far when it comes to private enterprise not being called the enemy anymore by a President without any class.

Tony C-2383666

This isn't about the blame game, this is about testing Republican talking points and finding they are not based on fact. The Republicans continue to claim that cutting taxes always leads to improving job numbers, but Bill Clinton raised taxes on the rich and the economy went through the roof. President Bush slashed taxes and the economy went south. To say the mid year elections "made a difference" is just silly, considering the Republicans have only had the majority for two months. You seem like a bright man, how do you justify making such weak arguments, just to support your Party?

Patrick - obamas leadership??? Puhleeze. His first stimulas was unable to sustain job growth and even less so in the private sector. The Feds policy of low interest $$$ did little as well as their QE2 plan. Only after his self described "shellacking" in nov 2010 did he start to see the errors of his ways and start thinking that the republicans had it right about buisiness creating jobs.

It is union bashing, Tom----don't you know all our economic issues are caused by unions?

Good idea, dottielou. Will join your effort.

Dottielou--do you mail it to a golf course, tanning salon or bar?

Dottielou,

Being in IT guy, i can say that the messages are likely to end up getting rejected as SPAM, and the Weeper will probalby never even see them. But valiant effort. Please continue.

Or maybe they already have commitments from major corporations and their overseas backers, they don't need to raise money from the American people. Look at the ones they have supported so far, the very wealthy. They have stomped on women and the middle class.

Just watch, they will show up the last minute, with pockets full of cash.

Clara:

Charlie White, Election Chief, now indicted on 7 felony counts is a BFF of our governor, Mitch Daniels. We will talk more about this later. Pay attention NJ, you man Mitch will have some explaining to do.

Looks like the new Indiana voter fraud law is paying off already. It's caught a very big fish, indeed. But I don't think that's the result the Republicans had in mind when they set out to make it more difficult for low-income people to vote.

Daniels says the only one he can truly trust is his wife-ex wife- er, wife!

Like clockwork. Thanks Tom!

Even if Government expanded to consume the entire solar system, it would still be smaller than Boehner's ego..."So Be IT"

Bob (snark meter on):

Ignore competency as long as it has an R by it's name,...

(and 'supposed low IQ'? really? allrighty then,...)

Houston!

How weird am I, I just watched the David Gregory/First Read "chat" AGAIN, even though I don't have sound on this computer. My personal iPad doesn't support watching videos like this so I have to swing by the public library after work to hear the discussion! I love my FR journalists!

What a dweeb I am, but I am fascinated by this polling. Thanks for taking the time to do your analysis, Houston, I learn as much from the comment section of this blog as I do from the content sometimes!

Houston,

Thanks for re-porting that little tidbit. After NoJo kindly pointed out yesterday that the QPolls were the more relevant source of poll info, i posted that same number. Interesting isn't it? And taking into account the conservative leanings of those polls, as you point out, that says alot about where the american public is at right now. But the righties wold have us all think otherwise.

Yep, he took a right turn after the midterm elections.

Great post.

american-2051576 -

Collective bargaining HAD its uses to ensure fair and ethical treatment of both management and rank and file. The operative word is HAD...Current labor laws including OSHA, the ADA and prohibiting discrimation based on... and other regs makes unions obsolete and merely a further drain on the workers resources with union dues going to fund the obscenly rich labor leaders and their enforcers.

So I take it you are one who believes that companies who exploit child labor, treat workers like slaves and operate unsafe and polluting facilities overseas will be model employers here in the US if unions go away?....Isn't NO UNIONS the reason why they operate the way they do elsewhere in the world???

Care to give us tyhe names of ten (10) leading economists that support your assertions that unions continue to be a good thing for America.

There are more than 10, might take a little while to track down a copy of this letter:http://www.politicalaffairs.net/prominent-economists-urge-passage-of-pro-union-law/

For about 20 % of Americans the standard of living already is lower...Fewer people do not enjoy home ownership and it may be years before this is reversed.

"The Bush administration took a lot of pride that home ownership had reached historic highs," Snow said during an interview. "But what we forgot in the process was that it has to be done in the context of people being able to afford their house. We now realize there was a high cost."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/business/worldbusiness/21iht-admin.4.18853088.html?_r=1

We continue to throw $$$ at k-12 education only to see it continue its decline in world rankings. There is something structurally wrong in our approch to k-12 education. Our university and graduate level educational systems continue to attract the brightest minds of foreign nationals (while our own youth seem to take less interest) in the areas of math and science, but not because of collective bargaining. The foreign nationals realize the benefits of such areas of study are to economic growth and prosperity for all. Not within the context of WE vs THEM!

If you look back at the history of No Child Left Behind, the issue of inadequate funding for the mandates played a big part of when, where and how standards and curriculum have not succeeded.

By wht measure do unions create more graduates?

The measurement tool is The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP).

Business is what grows infrastructure for it is the ability to transport products and services efficiently that creates growth, not unions.

Absolutely not true. Airlines and automotive industries killed the railroads, but railroads are needed to move product efficiently in the world of $4 a gallon gasoline and diesel fuel. Business doesn't make the investment for the community at large, it is the community at large that makes the investment to accomodate industrial growth. (See China's 5 Year Plans)

Again I ask:

Are you one who believes that companies who exploit child labor, treat workers like slaves and operate unsafe and polluting facilities overseas will be model employers here in the US if unions go away?....Isn't NO UNIONS the reason why they operate the way they do elsewhere in the world???

Gramma knows - We are talking about the United States of America, not another country where our input into their domestic affairs are not likely to be accepted, or do you presume that the US government will treat any foreign business conducting business within our borders not be held to the same standards as our domestic businesses are? You expect our government to give them a type of diplomatic immunity?

Interesting link to the communist party political affairs web site. No links to substantiate the claims made however on the economic benefits of union representation in either the public or private workforce. One of EPCA goals is to simplify union membership by eliminating the need to have a secret ballot vote for union representation. Unions can be free to intimidate workers to sign and carry the card, even if the workers don't want representation. Hardly seems like the American way to do away with casting a secret vote. The link also stated Tens of millions want union representation? I must say it is a nice propaganda opinion link.

How is union membership key to home ownership? Neither you or US navy have answered this and your NYT link doesn't as well.

Our decline in k-12 education goes further back than no child left behid. The biggest complaint I have heard about "no child left behind" was in the mountains of paperwork required to be filed and the loss of teacher time in the classroom. how does filing government mandated paperwork improve our students proficiency? Noble concept, bad implimentation, regardless of funding.

NEAP web site says nothing about unions creating more graduates and i even searched their site for the word unions.

Infrastructure - airlines, trucking shipping and railroads are all businesses, none of which are union owned that I am aware of. Businesses pay taxes and fees for transportation services just as the consumer pays gasoline tax, but both pay for maintaining and creating infrastructure. I do see your point on community (read government) investment as well. If you will mutual support. Regardless it is still the collection of fees and taxes from business and consumers that supports infrastructure. Again going back to navies post what do unions have to do with infrastructure?

We have child labor laws, OSHA regs, ADA regs and a multitude of other regs, why do we need unions? Unions are just another hand in our pocket robbing us of our hard earned $$$.

We have child labor laws, OSHA regs, ADA regs and a multitude of other regs, why do we need unions? Unions are just another hand in our pocket robbing us of our hard earned $$$.

Wow, American. Do you really, HONESTLY believe what you are posting?

How are the unions 'just another hand in OUR pocket robbing us of our hard earned $$$' when we are subsidizing Big Oil with OUR tax dollars and there is nary a PEEP about that? Why are you not in a rage about why, when Big Oil makes 145 BILLION in one year, we are still giving them tax breaks?

Why are we so ready to let Corporations send jobs that could be done in America overseas and we still give them tax breaks? Do you think that it is in America's best interest to let Corporations that can pay their fair share NOT do so in the name of the 'FREE Market'? Who do you think it HURTS when those same Corporations are making RECORD PROFITS and workers are struggling to find jobs? What about the municipalities that house these Corporations that provide little or nothing to the municipality's REVENUE base when they are struggling to make their budgets work?

Why are you so intent to IGNORE the other 'hands that are robbing us of our hard earned $$$'???

I think, in this case, American, that the Unions are a convenient target for you. Really. Like I have been pointing out, Big Oil is taking YOUR TAX DOLLARS as a subsidy. DO they need it?

What about Corporate Farms that are also being subsidized by the taxpayer? What about production of Ethanol and the subsidy that taxpayers are paying corn farmers to use a part of their crops to make Ethanon (which is terribly expensive to made as opposed to fossil fuels)?

We haven't even touched on the Military Industrial COmplex, and the boondoggles that they ae spending TRILLIONS of money on. Why are you not upset about spending $15 BILLION a MONTH on Iraq and Afghanistan?

I bring all of this up because there is enough blame to go around. I think that if we are looking at where the waste and graft REALLY are, Union issues are such SMALL POTATOES that it is not worth being the FIRST on the list of issues we are dealing with.

Can we clean up - and deal with - the REAL problems FIRST before we start getting upset about the MANUFACTURED problems?

ROTFLMAO! Just what I like, more FR liberals dwelling in the past and incapable of going forward.

As usual, you spout more mantra screaming about how "liberals" are so bad yet you refuse to give any reason whatsoever. How about this: The Dow is higher than it was before Obama took office and unemployment is probably going to go below January 2009 numbers. According to the OFFICIAL REPORTS, the recession started back when Bush was in office.

@Batty: don't you know, the majority of Americans voted for Al Gore during that election, Bush only winning 'cause his brother was the governor of Florida. Or have the Republicons forgotten that?