Governor Walker wants to play hardball; looks like his citizens are taking a lesson from his play book and letting the GOP/TP Senators know they are serious, dead serious.

Yesterday morning citizens from around the state took the first steps by filing recall papers against key Republican Senators who have stood with Scott Walker and pushed his partisan power grab that will strip thousands of middle class teachers, nurses, librarians and other workers of their right to collective bargaining. And what was the final straw was the DRACONIAN budget that will cut millions from our schools and universities allow no bid sales of some government owned property and the gutting of Medicaid were named.

A recent NBC/WSJ report yesterday said over 60% were against repealing collective bargaining and on the Budget Cuts, most Americans think the government should do more, not less. See the articles below for details.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41876558/ns/politics/

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_Politics/___Politics_Today_Stories_Teases/2-24-28-11.pdf

Many of the eight named Republican Senators are vulnerable to recall. As reported by ThinkProgress: “Senator Randy Hopper won his last election by just 184 votes. And Alberta Darling won her last race by only 1,007. By recalling just three of the eight Senators [Democrats] are targeting, [Democrats] can regain control of the Senate”.

The Ohio House passed their version of the Collective Bargaining Destruction Bill with a little bit of hanky panky. It appears that about a half a dozen or more GOP/TP party members had a changed of heart (they listened to the people – surprise) and were not going to vote along party lines. So the GOP/TP replaces one on each of the two committees with one that would vote the party line and the bill passes by ONE VOTE. When you cannot argue successfully aginst the facts the GOP/TP tries to remove the platform to squelsh the facts (Karl Rove). This is what they did yesterday in Ohio, THEY RIGGED THE VOTE. Once again, it is not the Democrats that are the cowards here. 14 brave patriots but their careers on the line for democracy, the GOP/TP usurpts the ideology of Democracy by fixing the vote. They are the true COWARDS in this, they claim the Democratic State Senators are by exercising their right to not participate in a vote, are cowards. I say those that lock up the Capital Building, call their citizens SLOBS, refuse to compromise and rig the vote (because that was the only way to win) are the cowards and of the most repugnant flavor. Even many Americans across all 50 States are now standing in the streets against this Nazi type of assault on democracy.

The American people are speaking out against rewarding the corporations and the rich with big tax cuts while they turn around and cut spending on needed social programs like education, police and fire fighters, infrastructure, Medicaid, medical research, boarder control, food and product safety, teachers and about 60 other agencies looking to have their budgets gutted making them impotent.

Yesterday the House passed a bill that gave tax cuts and subsidies to the Oil Companies. Companies that are reporting record profits while laying off people are get rewards?? 53 Billion Dollars over the next decade gone, how many agencies on the cutting block could have benefited from those dollars??

People these Spending Cuts both at the State and Federal levels are not about the deficit never have been. It is about Power and Greed cloaked in the deficit rhetoric to try and hide their true nature, more wealth and power for a select few and the he!! with everybody else. Same old same old, their agenda has not changed.

It was reported this morning the unemployment levels drop to the lowest in about three (3) years. While this is a good number tomorrow we will see the job numbers and see if we are at or below the 9% currently.

Yesterday the House passed a bill that gave tax cuts and subsidies to the Oil Companies. Companies that are reporting record profits while laying off people are get rewards??

This is nothing new, they voted to continue with the current subsidies that have been in place for quite some time.

I think you are completely wrong in your assertion that the oil companies are laying off employees, in fact some of the opposite is occurring now. Though the moratorium has been over (on paper) for quite some time, the BOEMRE has been dragging their feet to issue new permits. I think only 1-2 new deep water permits have been granted. Employment in the oil industry will continue to pick up as the activity level increases.

GREAT start, Louis and Navy.

Actually it represents that people actually watch shows and programs other than MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS or whatever you are ranting about... those people aren't zombies like the people that stayed glued to FAUX News; they want to watch programs of variety other than some entertainer or failed politician on FAUX News... oh wait, that means they think for themselves.

People that stayed glued like zombifies to FAUX News need FAUX News to tell them what to say next chief or how to think... it's actually pretty pathetic. But please keep showing your mindless thoughts on television ratings, it's truly revealing how people are controlled by the rich. Priceless.

Think for yourself.

:^/)

Louis J:

Nice post today. I guess his keyboard is stuck, looks like the same gibberish he posted all day yesterday.

“Fox News senior vice president for news Michael Clemente has responded to the study which found that his network's viewers are more misinformed about American political issues than any other channel. In a statement to the New York Times' Brian Stelter, Clemente disparaged the University of Maryland, where the study was done.”

"The latest Princeton Review ranked the University of Maryland among the top schools for having ‘Students Who Study The Least’ and being the ‘Best Party School’ – given these fine academic distinctions, we’ll regard the study with the same level of veracity it was ‘researched’ with," Clemente said.

"For the record, the Princeton Review says the University of Maryland ranks among the 'Best Northeastern Colleges," Stelter notes. "It was No. 19 on the Review’s list of 'Best Party Schools.'"

“ORIGINAL POST: Fox News viewers are much more likely than others to believe false information about American politics, a new study concludes.”

“The study, conducted by the University of Maryland, judged how likely consumers of various news outlets and publications were to believe misinformation about a wide range of political issues. Overall, 90% of respondents said they felt they had heard false information being given to them during the 2010 election campaign. However, while consumers of just about every news outlet believed some information that was false, the study found that Fox News viewers, regardless of political information, were "significantly more likely" to believe that:”

Jack Mirkinson

Louis J.,....you say

People that stayed glued like zombifies to FAUX News need FAUX News to tell them what to say next chief or how to think... it's actually pretty pathetic. But please keep showing your mindless thoughts on television ratings, it's truly revealing how people are controlled by the rich. Priceless.

I'm sorry that you are in the minority.....But please keep showing your mindless thoughts on MSNBC's slanted First read articles, it's truly revealing how people are controlled by the progressives. Priceless!

Get help louis.... and fast...

FOX NEWS (?) is the most watched NEWS (?) show on TV. Just goes to show you how many ignorant, uneducated swamp dewellers we have in this nation.

HAHA, ok gotcha... man I enjoy the chuckles youse guys provide.

No Joe... Yeah, I kinda glanced through the crosstabs as well. It said that it essentially used a sample of 23% union households and 77% non-union households. It also seemed to slightly oversample "Obama voters" vs. "McCain voters". Tough to tell what the exact impact of that would be on the numbers.

The Quinnipiac numbers do look a bit more reasonable at a quick glance, however I couldn't find the crosstabs on that one.

I think in all honesty what you see in this poll is, and I hate to say it, selfishness. The essential philosophy of most voters goes along the lines of this: "The deficit and debt are bad things...cut them...as long as it doesn't impact me." Just my $0.02.

You do realize True American only the stupid and misinformed watch Fox, because they don't have anything better to do. They need to be told what to think and what to do just like you. Really you don't have the mental capacity to think for yourselves.

no joe, no bo, nj

The percentage of workers represented by unions in this country's 12.4%. Read the poll cross tabs. The number of union members was far in excess of that number.

You're on about that again? Your inability to do simple arithmetic doesn't mean there's anything suspicious about the results of polls done by people who actually understand advanced math and statistics. If 12% of the adult population are union members and 20% of the population has a union member in a household (as in the CBS poll), that means there are about 1.7 adults per union household on average. So, all that tells you is that union members tend to be married or are living with a "significant other." And nojonobo finds this deeply suspicious. That notorious liberal rag, the Wall Street Journal, MUST have jiggered the results somehow. Otherw9ise, they would have come out the way nojonobo wants them to.

I agree with you. I can't believe how low the Rethuglicans will stoop to gain power. They're using all sorts of fabricated, deranged-minded statements they cannot prove. The Governors are turning on hardworking people while the rich continues to get a free ride. They're pulling straws for presidential candidates that looks and acts like the slap-happy three stooges. I could go on and on, but, if anyone is destroying America, many need a reality check as to who is really destroying America.

"For the record, the Princeton Review says the University of Maryland ranks among the 'Best Northeastern Colleges," Stelter notes

And so a GOPTP partisan is caught lying again, as Stelter points out. I'd say it's a daily occurrence but that doesn't nearly cover it.

NoJo,

You mean Quinnipiac numbers like these:

But voters oppose cuts in the growth of entitlement programs to reduce the budgetdeficit:

• 70 - 25 percent against cutting Social Security;
• 72 - 25 percent against cutting Medicare;
• 59 - 37 percent against cutting Medicaid.

I guess that's primarily why you didn't want to post the numbers yourself. They actually contradict your argument.

Remember the mantra from the GOP prior to 2010 elections "Where are the jobs?" Notice that after elected, they don't care at all about jobs? Like not at all? Not one word about jobs. Not a mention. And when their budget is shown to cut 700,000 jobs, they have no answer. This should be highlighted everywhere. Republicans = no jobs.

And what was the final straw was the DRACONIAN budget . . . .

Just like with the federal budget cuts, the state cuts to the budget also must to be made. People that feel entitled, as the public unions workers in Wisconsin do, will not be happy when they are told that they need to pay their fair-share of the burden. If the Unions/Liberals/Democrats (all one and the same) feel that these cuts are "draconian", let them propose a tax increase plan that has the taxpayers foot the bill for the Union membership. They'll have to win an election on those terms though before they can implement them, because Wisconsin is currently in no mood to feed the Unions any more money.

No Jo wants to argue that teachers' unions are bankrupting state governments with their outrageous salaries and overly generous retirement benefits. This is the tact that Maine's Tea Party governor is taking in trying to win concessions from teachers in order to finance his tax cuts. I'm not kidding. Tax cuts in a time of recession.

Gov. LePage is trying to make teacher's the "bad guys" in his budget slashing, but an examination of the facts shows that only about 13% of teachers make it through 25 years of teaching in Maine, and those folks accrue an average annual benefit of $26,000. The average benefit for all retired teachers is only $19,300. Can you believe this? Why would our best and brightest students go into teaching if this is how they are compensated?

True American: "In terms of overall viewers, the top 11 cable news shows were all on Fox."

And "Two And a Half Men" is consistently the highest rated network comedy show (well, except for those Fox "news" shows you mentioned). That doesn't make Charlie Sheen any less of a train wreck. And neither one of our statements says much for the intelligence of the average American tv viewer.

Renee: Governors are turning on hardworking people while the rich continues to get a free ride.

The top 1% of the rich pay 38% of the federal tax burden. The top 10% of the rich pay 70% of that burden. Those rich also pay the vast majority of taxes to the states. Please explain how much more taxes the rich should pay before you would no longer feel they are getting a "free ride".

Houston...I understand what you're saying. In this poll however the percentage of union households was either 22 or 23...that's roughly 2 adults per household...however, something like 54% (I'm going off memory here...if I'm way off I apologize) of survey respondents were married. So, I do believe there is union oversampling here, but not on the magnitude of two times. Somewhere in between.

Frank "Grimey" Grimes

No Joe... Yeah, I kinda glanced through the crosstabs as well. It said that it essentially used a sample of 23% union households and 77% non-union households

Maybe instead of just glancing, you should have looked a little more carefully, because you're wrong. Here's the question from the NBC/WSJ poll:

QF7a/b Are you a current or retired labor union member? (ASK ONLY OF RESPONDENTS WHO SAY "NO" OR "NOT SURE" IN QF7a.) Is anyone else in your household a current or retired labor union member?
Labor union member .........................
14
Union household ...............................
8
Non-union household ........................
77
Not sure ..........................................
1

Only 14% say they are union members, only 1.3 points off from the 12.7% nojonobo likes to quote. And only 8% are in union households in this survey.

The only thing I see that might be a discrepancy with the CBS/NYT poll is that poll showed that 20% were in union households, a lot higher than the NBC figure of 8%. But CBS apparently didn't have a separate question asking whether people were union members and only asked them if they were in union households. But NBC only asked the household member of people who said they weren't union members themselves, so if you add the 8% union members to the 14% who are not in unions but in a union household, the result is 22% -- only 2 points off from what the CBS/NYT to be the percentage of people in union households.

There have been many polls on this subject, and they're all giving the same results. Wishful thinking won't make them go away.

Since we are all excited about polls, and as NoJo points out that Quinnipiac is the correctly weighted poll to follow, how do you like these numbers JAS1?

By 64 - 32 percent, voters say raising income taxes on those earning more than $250,000should be part of any budget deal.

You do realize MO & JoAnne only the stupid and misinformed watch MSNBC, because they don't have anything better to do. They need to be told what to think and what to do just like you. Really you don't have the mental capacity to think for yourselves.

Frank

Houston...I understand what you're saying. In this poll however the percentage of union households was either 22 or 23...

Only 8% said they were in union households, and that question was asked only of union members, not of the 14% who said they were. If the agreed-upon percentage of people in unions is the 12.7% that nojonobo keeps quoting, then this poll agrees with that number within a small margin of error. They did not oversample union members.

Bryan e.

Nice job on picking up the response to the general question. Now try reading the answer to the more specific question

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1563

Go down to question 32, which asks if people would support a candidate whompropsed a plan that would put social security on firm financial footing for fifty years, even if it cost them in terms of benefits.

53% would support that.

The problem is that there are mNy people who believe two things simultaneously, when only one thing can be true. As a liberal, you are no doubt aware of this phenomenam.

Oh, and Houston? An oversampled of union members by two per cent is significant- although not nearly as significant as oversampling public employees by more than double their numbers. It leaves your results open to question, to say the least.

And would earn you a failing grade in statistics.

And, Houston, it is 12.4%, not 12.7%.

And, yes, it does make a difference.

True American: "Really you don't have the mental capacity to think for yourselves."

As I've mentioned many a time, True, I'm that last holdout in the world who doesn't have cable, so I don't watch MSNBC either. I do read a lot, though. By the way, have you ever thought of changing your name to "Proud True American"? Because when you make statements like that, you really must be.

True American-2366567

You do realize MO & JoAnne only the stupid and misinformed watch MSNBC, because they don't have anything better to do. They need to be told what to think and what to do just like you. Really you don't have the mental capacity to think for yourselves.

MSNBC viewers don't need to be told that President Obama went to a madrassa as a child or that his trip to India cost $200 million a day like Fox viewers were told. And they don't need to show poll numbers flipped from their actual values when they don't come out the way progressives would like them to, the way Fox did with the recent poll on collective bargaining. They don't need to be told such things because those would be LIES, which is the steady diet Fox feeds its gullible viewers.

Bryan: By 64 - 32 percent, voters say raising income taxes on those earning more than $250,000should be part of any budget deal.

Thats fine. So when will Obama/Biden/Reid or what ever Democrat is at these budget negotation meetings make the proposal to do so? You seem to be swimming up stream on this one because Obama signed legislation in December that prevented taxes from being raised, Obama and the Democrats didn't talk of increasing taxes for the remaining 2011 budget, and Obama didn't propose these taxes in his 2012 budget. So who exactly do you expect to sponser the tax increase legislation your poll suggests seeing the Democrats don't seem interested?

Dangit Houston...now you're gonna make me go back and read this thing more thoroughly!! ;-)

OK...here's what it says:

Are you a current or retired labor union member? (ASK ONLY OF RESPONDENTS WHO SAY "NO" OR "NOT SURE" IN QF7a.) Is anyone else in your household a current or retired labor union member? Labor union member .........................

14

Union household ...............................

8

Non-union household ........................

77

Not sure ..........................................

1

I interpret it as saying that 14% of the people answering the phone were union members themselves and 8% were not union members but had a union member in their house...is that how you are interpreting it? If we look at the 14% number, yeah, they're oversampling by a percentage point or two. As for the 8%, that is probably again, very slightly high, maybe a percent or so. Very small bit of oversampling.

Appreciate the debate though...you got me to look at it a bit closer. :-)

no joe, no bo, nj

And, Houston, it is 12.4%, not 12.7%.

And, yes, it does make a difference.

So, I was off by .3%. So what? You are so far off in your misinterpretation of these poll results that you're on another planet. Not that you'd ever admit being wrong. All these polls are saying exactly the same thing, but to you, that's just more proof of the great liberal conspiracy, just like every attempt to explain what happened with Apollo is merely more evidence that the moon landings were faked to conspiracy theorists.

Thanks for the clarification, Houston. I see some are going to continue to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of moving on, but c'est la vie.

Folk can do all the poll dancing they want - it is an old, dried-up and discredited technique to attack the methodology and claim bias when the results are uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable, indeed, for the ultra-right, and for the GOP Establishment. These results merely re-confirm the points some of us have been making for some time here - the GOP/TP is NOT "listening to the people." With announcement of the recall filings in Wisconsin, the results are coming back on the Republicans even sooner than some of us expected, as well.

GOP chicanery in Wisconsin and Ohio is already costing the party. Disappearing public support - nay, actual opposition - for the Tea Party-driven agenda should be a warning to the House Majority in D.C.

The American public has never supported the ultra-right, Libertarian agenda of dismantling almost the entire Federal apparatus. The attacks that began when FDR was in office always failed. The few that did succeed, beginning with the Reagan Regime, failed even more spectacularly in the years since, with one epic scandal or economic collapse after another. The right wing is not only pursuing a program of proven failure, it is doing so in spite of the will of the nation.

Thanks for the clarification, Houston. I see some are going to continue to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin instead of moving on, but c'est la vie.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Then there are those who watch the debate, only to inform both parties that there are no such thing as angels.

Both orthodoxies hate heretics...:)

Uncomfortable, indeed, for the ultra-right, and for the GOP Establishment. These results merely re-confirm the points some of us have been making for some time here - the GOP/TP is NOT "listening to the people."

The Republicans won an election on Nov02/2010 because of the failed economic policies of the Democrats. The Republicans won on a national level in Congress, and on the state and local levels in such states as Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. They won on the promise to reign in government spending and government growth. The people listened to the Republicans and elected them. Now the Republicans are doing the job they were elected to do. If you think the public isn't being listened to by the Republicans, the Democrats can make that an election issue for next years elections. The Democrats can run on the platform of more spending, larger government and increased taxes. We'll see how that goes for them.

JAS1, you enjoy repeating the mantra, "We won, you didn't." And you enjoy repeating the same falsehoods about why you won. At least you agreed that concern over the economy was the leading issue. It wasn't the "failed policies of the Democrats" who caused a global economic collapse, allow me to remind you - it was the decades of accumulated failures of the Republican policies that brought the world down in a heap.

And certainly the utter ineptitutde of the Bush Administration played a very, very large role.

So I'll remind you - and this is what the latest polls re-confirm:

Election Day, 2010 - exit polls: 83% of voters expressed concern over jobs and the economy; 77% said they wanted ALL political players to quit the ideological power-plays and posturing, and start accomplishing things; 22% said they were moved by a Tea Party position. The deficit, government size, national debt, and related issues were hardly on the screen at all. Those opposed to HCR were so few that that issue was eighth on the list.

You won, and immediately abandoned your vistory. And you abandoned the voters.

Haley Barbour was the first choice of just one respondent out of the 282 GOP primary voters the poll surveyed.

LOL! That is a Hoot! They must have forgot to poll the Deep South! If they did poll there then I would say no exploratory committee is needed! I guess it pretty difficult to reach Aunt Mable on the party line.

“I should be president or somebody better than I should be,” Roemer told Politico’s Martin

Well now that says it all. I believe anyone is better than Roemer. He can't even carry his own state anymore. Can you say Loser?

John A: You won, and immediately abandoned your vistory. And you abandoned the voters.

What do you suggest that GOP should do? Propose a "Jobs Program", a "Stimulus plan", one that costs a $1 trillion dollars and will "create millions of jobs", extend unemployment benefits until they become a de facto entitlement, pass a massive health care bill that someone is going to have to pay for, and threaten economic sanctions on businesses? That's what the Left did, and, no jobs.

Jobs come from the private sector, not the government. And with the Democrats continued assault on the businesses of the country, we're going to need more than the House of Representatives to turn that around.

Frank

I interpret it as saying that 14% of the people answering the phone were union members themselves and 8% were not union members but had a union member in their house...is that how you are interpreting it?

Yes. I will admit that the way they ran the results of questions 7FA and 7FB together was a little confusing, though. But I'm pretty sure we're both understanding it correctly.

If we look at the 14% number, yeah, they're oversampling by a percentage point or two. As for the 8%, that is probably again, very slightly high, maybe a percent or so. Very small bit of oversampling.

The margin of error was 3%, and that only holds for yes/no question. When you start dividing the sample population up into smaller groups, the sampling error increases. I don't know where the 12.4% figure for union membership comes from, but I'll bet that it's as likely to be a bit too low as other polls are a bit too high. Or both could be too high or both too low by a bit. I wouldn't quibble over a difference of 1.6% in either direction, though.

Appreciate the debate though...you got me to look at it a bit closer. :-)

Thanks. I usually don't go over poll results that closely, but I it's fun once in a while. I generally take it on faith that the pollsters know more about how to do their job than I do. If you're really interested in how polls are done and mistakes that pollsters can make, check out Nate Silver;s fivethirtyeight.com web site. He's a progressive, but he never lets that interfere with calling out a bad poll.

Hey Louis J,

You mentioned that oil companies are being rewarded while laying off employees. And I would just love to see you back that up with actual facts. Because honestly it's complete BS.

I work in the oil industry and the company I work for has hired and addition 12 employees in February, 15 in January and so far 6 in March. This brings our total workforce for just my company up to around 280.

Now granted that before the recession took hold we had nearly 400, and at our lowest point we had a little under 200, but right now in CA the oil industry is the only industry that is consistently hiring right now. You open up the classifieds or the on line job searches and there are huge ads for oilfield contractors who need manpower right now.

I guess my point is that you should probably restrain yourself and only comment on things you actually know about or understand. Cause all you do is come off making these broad, often untrue, comments and it makes you look like you are just another left wing poster deriding any type of corporate industry.

Go figure eh?

JohnA - and the FR liberals do it so well.

Folk can do all the poll dancing they want - it is an old, dried-up and discredited technique to attack the methodology and claim bias when the results are uncomfortable.

Did a cursory look at the poll last night and I wouldn'rt say that either side had much to boast about.

the opinion onwhether the country is headed in the reight direction is still in about the 60% range of no it isn't. Obamas approval ranking has declined slightly and the majority of those polled aren't impressed by the job congress ias doing, either at the time of novembers election or at the time of Februaries polling, When I get back tonight I will look at it in more detail.

nojnobo

Oh, and Houston? An oversampled of union members by two per cent is significant- although not nearly as significant as oversampling public employees by more than double their numbers. It leaves your results open to question, to say the least.

The margin of error was +/- 3.1%. Since the results being 14% polled were union members, that means there's a 95% chance that the number of union members is between 10,9% and 17.1%. There is NO statistically significant difference between the 12.4% figure you like and the 14% in the results (and the 12.4% figure certainly has some error in it, too).

And even if the number of union members is too big by 1.4%, how does that explain 81% of the respondents saying they'd favor increasing taxes on the wealthy to reduce the deficit?

And would earn you a failing grade in statistics.

Learn a little arithmetic before you start passing out grades on statistics to people with MSc degrees in computer science.

And that's all the time I'm going to waste explaining statistics to nojonobo. I'd have better luck explaining it to a fence post.

Um, Brutus, I didn't make any mention about anything remotely to what you said I said. You ok?

See that's the problem with the whole Republican rebuke thing... they like to make stuff up.

Careful what you say about people in parks talking... they may be talking to God.

Looks like we hit a nerve with True American JoAnne. He didn't have anyone to tell him what to say so he just repeated what I posted. Typical GOP/TP poster can't think for himself.

Here's another bit of news that Conservatives don't seem to be jumping all over;

Initial jobless claims fell to the lowest level in almost three years last week, the Labor Department reported Thursday.

http://www.ttnews.com/articles/basetemplate.aspx?storyid=26228&utm_source=express&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=newsletter

And all without Republicans lifting a finger to do anything about jobs. Late to the party once again.

Louis J.

this from your Post. Ummm You ok.. This is proof that you dont even Read what you copy and paste..

Yesterday the House passed a bill that gave tax cuts and subsidies to the Oil Companies. Companies that are reporting record profits while laying off people are get rewards?? 53 Billion Dollars over the next decade gone, how many agencies on the cutting block could have benefited from those dollars??

REally Louis J.. Learn to read what you cut and Paste..

no jo.....so what's the difference between public employee unions negotiating with politicians they've supported and the big corporations negotiating contracts and tax breaks with politicians they've supported? NOTHING. Go watch some more lies on FOX News, since you've lost the ability to think for yourself.

OK!!! I'll admit...

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You guys are truly crazy. SMH.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Here's another bit of news that Conservatives don't seem to be jumping all over;

Initial jobless claims fell to the lowest level in almost three years last week, the Labor Department reported Thursday.

http://www.ttnews.com/articles/basetemplate.aspx?storyid=26228&utm_source=express&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=newsletter

And all without Republicans lifting a finger to do anything about jobs. Late to the party once again.

But I assume you know that won't stop them from claiming credit. That's their Plan B. Plan A is to increase the unemployment rate with draconian budget cuts and then blame the bad economy on President Obama.

Hi folks,

Yes, TRUE NAZI is really losing it. He's become more strident and less relevant over the last couple of weeks and I'm afraid he's on FOX over load.

I'd call for an intervention and some much-needed programming if he weren't so funny, in a sad way.

In the interest of healthy discussion I think we should just routinely collapse everything he posts and move on to the more relevant and thoughtful GOP Posters who actually discuss the issues on the table.

Wow, look ate joanna backing up and making excuses about how the reublicans can't create jobs. I predicted it would be very short time after the elections and they exucses would start flying fast and furious and joanna didn't dissappoint. She pulled out her bag of excuses the morning after election night and has been tossing them around ever since.

JS1

The top 1% of the rich pay 38% of the federal tax burden. The top 10% of the rich pay 70% of that burden. Those rich also pay the vast majority of taxes to the states. Please explain how much more taxes the rich should pay before you would no longer feel they are getting a "free ride".

As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth (total net worth minus the value of one's home), the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 42.7%.

Now who is getting the free ride? Why would the Republicans give welfare to only 20% of Americans, who already owns 85% of the the wealth, while they take everything from the poor and middle class? Shouldn't they pay according to their wealth?

Fletch2: Shouldn't they [the "rich"] pay according to their wealth?

Sure, go ahead, do that. But I don't think you're going to get the GOP to introduce that legislation, so maybe Obama and Reid can get that ball rolling. Be sure to make it an election issue that the Democrats can run on. All these great increasing of taxes ideas you Libs have, but yet you cannot get your leaders to bite on any of them. I guess they'd sooner just load it all up on the national debt.

Fletch, thanks for bringing that up. Somehow that little detail consistently gets left out of the story that Conservatives choose to tell.

I guess if they admitted the truth people might get the idea they're enriching the already wealthy at the expense of everyone else.

Joe-I can't imagine anyone on the left or right saying that any program is perfect or should never be changed. Fraud and abuse should always be eliminated, technologies change and should be re-examined as well as needs. What I think people on the left worry about are reductions in service to those who need it most and are among the most vulnerable.

What I think people on the left worry about are reductions in service to those who need it most and are among the most vulnerable.

_________________________________________

Nice sentiment Steeler. The problem is that for pretty much every proposed change some advocacy group trots out a few very sad cases in the media to tug at heartstrings and stop anything from being changed. It's a classic lefty liberal dodging tactic.

FR: That tiger is the Tea Party.” McInturff’s explanation: The Americans who are most concerned about spending cuts are core Republicans and conservatives, not independents or swing voters.

That’s fine. So what are the independents/swing-voters, and for that matter the Democrats, plans for cutting the deficit? You can't have it both ways, so if the Indies/Democrats don’t want to cut spending, they must want to raise taxes, because Lord knows with ObamaNomics we won’t be growing the country out of this amount deficit spending any time soon.

So Indies/Democrats/Obama, where is your tax increase plan to reduce the deficit?I'm certain this will come when VP Joe Biden conducts his mediation of the budget negotiations today.

Joanna, it is in the poll.

56% support gradually increasing the Social Security retirement age to 69.

51% support defunding HCR so that it never goes into effect.

It's funny, is it not, that even in am poll where public workers are oversampled, ( they represent about 6% of the total workforce, but this poll had a pool of 14%- more than double their numbers!), 68% express approval for increasing public workers contributions to their retirement funds, while 66% support their paying more for healthcare.

The headline, though, is that majorities support union rights. Well, when you oversampled public workers AND union members, those are the results you get.

Wonder what Obama's approval rating would have been if the poll was properly weighted?

JS1 why do you think the Democrats need to have a plan, but GOP/TP sound bites are good enough for you? Read my post above you need to be told what to think and what to say.

Seems like the Republicans are the only responsible adults in the room. They are willing to tackle the really hard, unpopular issues that have been neglected for so long by the ignorant liberal left.

Where to cut spending and by how much?? The first round of cuts should be easy, since their is so much fat available to be trimmed.

Anyone ever think about how easy it must be to live the life of a Democratic tax and spend liberal?? Just vote the party line, and then crank out earmarks fast as you can to ensure your re-election. No real thinking required.

Contrast that with the conservative right. Come to Washington, look at the mess built up by the tax and spend crowd of libbies. Start working to clean up the mess and limit the crazy spending, take criticism all day every day for trying to do what is really needed. It's a wonder anyone would want to go into congress as a Republican. Much easier to just ride the libbies gravy train right into the ditch.

No Jo, like the Quinnipiac poll you mentioned?

Given four choices to describe their feelings about Obama, American voters say:

• 41 percent like him personally and like his policies;
• 33 percent like him personally, but don't like his policies;
• 1 percent like his policies, but don't like him;
• 19 percent don't like him or his policies.

Joe in Albany: "Nice sentiment Steeler. The problem is that for pretty much every proposed change some advocacy group trots out a few very sad cases in the media to tug at heartstrings and stop anything from being changed. It's a classic lefty liberal dodging tactic."

Joe, my recently widowed 79-year-old mother is currently in a wheelchair in an assisted living facility in Florida after going through a heart attack, bypass surgery, a stroke, and most recently a fall resulting in a broken hip - all the while my step-father was dying of lung cancer that had metastasized to his brain and had him royally scewing up their finances the last several months. Until my step-sister and I can get his estate settled, Social Security and Medicare and our own hard-earned life savings are about all that's keeping her off the streets. Maybe to you that's a "classic liberal dodging tactic". To me, it's just my Mom. And I'd feel the same way if it was yours.

Medicare fraud is a huge issue, which is why its heartening to see the steps the Obama administration has taken to arrest these criminals and recover the embezzled funds.

According to Kathleen Sebelius, $4 billion was recovered just last year, and the government’s Medicare Fraud Strike Force was recently expanded to nine cities, with the addition of Dallas and Chicago. This fraud has been going on for decades, but the Obama administration's record on cracking down on it is awesome.

Edward: Seems like the Republicans are the only responsible adults in the room.

They are, both at the state and national level. Cutting budgets is never popular. You have explain to the public why it is important, what the impact of it will be, and what your plan is for the present and the future. The Republicans are doing that, and are doing it well. They are explaining in stark terms how the continued massive spending the Democrats propose will harm the states and the country. The Republicans need to continue with that explanation, and to call the Democrats out for their plan for cutting the deficits in the country, because right now the Democrats don't have plan, well, other than to continue their massive deficit spending.

"Cutting budgets is never popular."

The WI unions agreed to every concession on pay and benefit cuts GOV Walker asked of them but Walker insisted on taking away their right to collective bargaining, which the unions would not accept.

Last time I checked, teachers are the most adult people in the population. They better be, they have the responsibility for our kids safety and development.

Why do Republicans have to lie about simply everything?

Walker insisted on taking away their right to collective bargaining, which the unions would not accept.

All the sweetheart deals the Democrats, who were bankrolled by the unions, made with the unions have caught up to both. Now the taxpayer has a say in the matter, and collective bargaining needs to be curtailed.

Last time I checked, teachers are the most adult people in the population. They better be, they have the responsibility for our kids safety and development.

Really? And here I was under the impression that was the parents job.

JoAnnaSmith1-

If, as the CBO suggests, the cost of servicing U.S. debt is allowed to rise to nearly $1 trillion annually in 10 years, none of it will matter.

Game, set, match.

We're done.

Mo - the republicans passed a proposal on budget cuts in february. The democrat controlled senate just said NO, NO, NO. Sound familiar?

Steeler fan - even obama said that budget cuts were going to hurt people. The democrats were right thogh in stating that SS should be off of the table as it is currently not impacting the deficit. Besides, politicians have used it repeatably since the late 60's like an ATM machine.

Joe in Albany (post 2) - read that yesterday as well about medicare fraud, apparently obama, pelosi and reid lied to us all by saying that the $500 billion they were removing from medicare with obamacare would be made up by stopping medicare fraud. Seems that either the GAO is wrong or obama and company are wrong or the time lines do not match up.

If, as the CBO suggests, the cost of servicing U.S. debt is allowed to rise to nearly $1 trillion annually in 10 years, none of it will matter.

Game, set, match.

We're done.

So why are Republicans so insistent upon increasing the deficit with further tax cuts and repealing Affordable Care? By your own logic they're putting America into dire straights by doing so.

John B: So why are Republicans so insistent upon increasing the deficit with further tax cuts and repealing Affordable Care?

Who's cutting taxes? And there is nothing affordable about "Affordable Care".

John B-

Why has President Obama ignored the findings and recommendations of his own debt commission?

And...who will be hurt most by the diversion of nearly $1 trillion annually of federal revenue to debt service?

The savings projected from Obamacare are dependent on reductions in Medicare spending. When those reductions are actually voted, I'll consider believing that Obamacare lowers the deficit...until then, Obamacare will almost certainly add to the debt.

Regarding taxes...I'll accept the debt commission's finding that tax increases will be necessary along with across-the-board cuts in spending.

Until the President and Congressional Democrats agree to the across-the-board reductions in spending, you won't find many Republicans supporting tax increases.

That's the way this is going to work, John.

The status-quo leads us to $1 trillion a year debt service payments in about 10 years, according to the CBO.

Again, John...who will suffer the most from a diversion of that level of federal revenue to service the debt?

The wealthy?

Please...

As usual no answers from the Conservatives, only more questions.

And yet...somehow, I missed YOUR answers, John B.

The liberals at this site continue to portray the debt crisis as a partisan political issue, in spite of the devastation that the cost of servicing obscene levels of debt will wreak on the programs progressives hold most dear.

The CBO 10-year projection on government debt and the cost of servicing that debt is a catastrophe for everyone, without regard to political affiliation...but clearly, the poor will be the first to suffer and they will suffer the most.

Only a partisan ideologue would argue otherwise, John.

Just pointing out that Conservatives talk about fixing it a lot, all the while doing things that make the problem worse. Such as, for example, holding tax cuts for EVERYONE hostage in order to get an additional, extra special, even bigger tax cut for the wealthiest 2%.

Who's willing to talk about the entire package? That would be an honest discussion of what the government should be doing AND how it's to be paid for.

Interesting, John B.-

I thought that issuing an executive order creating a bipartisan debt commission, and then ignoring their conclusions and recommendations, amounted to an elaborate kabuki dance.

What was the point?

The debt commission's recommendations for across-the-board spending cuts coupled with tax increases IS an "entire package"...and, they had an "honest discussion" about how government is going to be paid for.

When President Obama wouldn't sign on to the recommendations of his own debt commission, he gave political cover to anyone and everyone (including Republicans) who wanted to act in a similar fashion.

He's the President...he has to lead on this issue.

He can't simply vote "present"...can he?

John B.: holding tax cuts for EVERYONE hostage in order to get an additional, extra special, even bigger tax cut for the wealthiest 2%.

Tax cuts? What tax cuts? The only "cuts" were in the SS tax, 2% reduction for the individual, and that was Obama's idea. And no one was held hostage in any way on the EXTENSION of the Bush Tax cuts (now known as the Obama Tax Cuts). The Democrats could have left them expire, and could have done so by doing what they do best, nothing.

You really are hung up on that "wealthiest 2%" thing, aren't you? You do realize that letting the Bush Tax Cuts expire on the rich would have brought in about $70 billion of additional tax revenue a year. A significant amount, but it would have reduced Obama's 2012 budget deficit from $1.65 trillion to $1.58 trillion. So, when you look at the "entire package" as you say, it really isn't very significant.

Yawwwn....quibling about .3 % here anbd .2% there. Bottomline is that there are limits to what the public wants as far as cuts. Twist it how you like, but they all say the same thing to me...the GOP/TeaBAggers are overreaching like they always do and will run themselves off the cliff going beyond the false 'mandate' they claim.

Im enjoying watching the train wreck coming for the GOP. Joanna, NO Blow Joe and other GOP whineing trolls on here are in denial. Meanwhile, they keep opening their fat mouths and get into trouble with the independant voters.

The Republicans are losing the independent voters on economic issues. They may cut too much which will kill off the Obama recovery. But then again, thats what the GOP has always wanted...FAILURE .....no ecomomic progress just so they have a better shot at 2012.

The GOP as demonstrated by Huckabees double dip into 'buy the lie' strategy is selling out to deceit and slander. You cant trust the GOP and the TEaBAggers are looking incompetent to lead. Say goodbye to the independant voter who was looking for bi-partisan practical approaches.

No GOP Jobs solutions as the public says JOBS IS #1 ISSUE. They chase phanotm Union threats and abortion and the Obama admin is working on jobs. When is the GOP actually going to lead?

There were no recommendations, MB...the commission never received the required number of internal votes needed to formalize anything. In other words the informal opinion of 2 of the members doesn't rise to the level of "recommendations of the commission."

I see that JS1 considers $70B/yr to the very wealthy as no big deal, but she's ready to dance around the campfire because the GOPTP is putting together a plan to reduce programs by $60B.

There's your kabuki dance. For more on how that works this is a pretty informative work; http://www.amazon.com/Kabuki-Democracy-System-Barack-Obama/dp/1568586590

You really should read the Commission's report, John.

Specifically, the section entitled "The Plan".

You can argue that a section entitled "The Plan" isn't the same as recommendations. You're right. A "plan" is something considerably more definitive.

Eleven of the eighteen commission members signed off on the commission's plan. Among the eleven commission members voting in favor of the plan were Democratic U.S. Senators Dick Durbin (D-IL) and Kent Conrad (D-ND), former Rep. John Spratt (D-SC), Clinton White House Chief-Of-Staff Erskine Bowles, and Democrat and founding director of the CBO, Alice Rivlin.

And the ball remains in President Obama's court.

He's still the President.

Where's his "Plan", John B.?

John B: There were no recommendations [in the Debt Commission report], MB...the commission never received the required number of internal votes needed to formalize anything.

Oh, there were plenty of recommendations, and the vote you speak of was to get an up/down vote on the entire package in the House/Senate. When the Commission completed its work, Obama pleasantly thanked the members, and chucked their recommendations on the garbage heap.

Obama and the Democrats don't even want to recognize that government spending is a problem. They don't want to hear it, they don't want to be challenged on it, they do not want any talk of it. See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil. They like spending that money. It's buys them lots of votes.

JoAnnaSmith are you for real? you conservatives are un real because I happen to remember just not that long ago the republicans BLOCKING the vote to extend unemployment unless the fat cats got thier tax cuts..Not a well lets deal with the poor folks and then come back and tackle this,it was if they get it cuz they need it then our boys want theirs too so stfu with the nonesense..

Just can't stop lying, can you?

President Barack Obama's deficit commission failed Friday to forge consensus on what to do about an increasingly urgent debt problem, but the breakdown of its vote lays out the road map for how Congress might address it next year.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40489484/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

One little fact has shown that under the New Health Care Law, new systems and rules have enabled the Department of Health and Human Services agency's fraud investigation unit to recovered $3 billion over the past fiscal year from Medicare and Medicaid Fraud.

Did that $3 billion number come from the same federal magicians... er, um, statisticians that produced the "3.5 million jobs created or saved" by the Porkulus bill??

"The fraud and mismanagement though is not limited to just Medicaid. The DOD and Federal Government also has a lot of fraud, mismanagement, programs that no longer work, redundancy of departments, programs they do not need etc."

Just wait until the Gov is running the entire Health Care System, the current levels of mismanagement will be peanuts compared to where the Democrats want to take us all; we will all have the same poor and mismanaged care, just like in Russia. And I'm sure the Doctors will all have to be in the Union.

Joe,

Fact checks Joe. You know like Fox doesn't do. Also, I was wrong in the 3 Billion caught. After reading Amy's post and digging a little deeper, the amount caught and saved is 4 Billion.

"Fact checks Joe"

Care to document the "fact" you quote in #3.1 that this $4 billion is actually all due to "the New Health Care Law, new systems and rules"??

Or is it maybe just the same old, same old, pathetic efforts that are finding 8.3% of the GAO's estimated $48 billion in losses??

And, care to comment on how ridiculous Sebelius looks touting that dismal performance??

Joe,

I'm going to let you do the fact check. It will be a good exercise for you in building your research skills. You can start with Fact check.org.

Job1

So you made a claim of "fact" that you are not willing to back up with documentation (most likely because you know your "fact" is not true), and I'm supposed to go and document your "fact" for you??

Moron.

You lefty liberals are Hillaryous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Job1, THANKS for another big laugh. I decided to take a look at factcheck.org and guess what was right on the home page?

Another lefty liberal lie exposed:

Democrats Deny Social Security’s Red Ink
Some claim it doesn't contribute to the federal deficit, but it does.

February 25, 2011

Summary

Some senior Democrats are claiming that Social Security does not contribute "one penny" to the federal deficit. That’s not true. The fact is, the federal government had to borrow $37 billion last year to finance Social Security, and will need to borrow more this year. The red ink is projected to total well over half a trillion dollars in the coming decade.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JiA: Democrats Deny Social Security’s Red Ink

Well, that is the Democrats last alternative to the budget deficit/debt, just deny it's a problem.

Joe,

The issue that we are discussing is the Health care reform bill. YOU NEED TO DO OWN RESEARCH. I don't need to do your work for you. Please use your basic internet skills.

Job1

LMAO@UUMORON!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are the Republican_Bagger MORON. Too lazy to do your own research.

They all are job. however, they are really good at teenage imternet slang. Chances are, joe can't spell

G-O-O-G-L-E. LOL

Great post, IR. What is amazing to me is how some folks get to that end answer and can't be swayed by any arguments and just keep repeating their version of the truth. I do think they believe they are right, any evidence to the contrary notwithstanding. Sadly, they take an entire nation with them in that delusion. Case in point----don't focus on jobs or tax rates, just cut government spending in order to address our economic woes. No evidence cited to support that--but they know they are right.

IR: Good morning and great post. They do like to repeat the same old same old. That is what happens when you have NO new ideas and/or the ones you got suck so bad that the majority of the people do not like them and want their money (vote) back.

IR,

Solid Post. Thanks for the insight.

The more things change, the more they remain the same, eh IR?

Thanks for posting, and for pointing out that Conservatives refuse to change their ideologically driven plans no matter how many times they fail.

Thanks fellows.......Bryan haven't been posting much this week(contrary to what most of the Yahoo's would have you believe I do have to do a little work to keep myself in the style that I've become acusstumed to) but I do keep up with whats going on and I've enjoyed your participation this week.

The buyer's remorse of those who voted for Obama is off the scale. The electorate will probably over steer to the right this time. Not just a correction, but an over correction.

One or two more blunders by the Democrats, coupled with the high unemployment and super high underemployment, and there is a repeat performance from November brewing on a grand scale.

Obama has maneuvered himself into a political corner, and all his democratic Senators and congressmen are treading on thin ice and will once again be deemed guilty by association with Obama.

It may come to the point where calling someone a Democrat will be the same as calling them an Idiot.

Edward-1075991

You need to get out of your red state bubble or your jaw will be on the ground and crack after election day 2012.

According to the Quinnipiac Poll Bryan E. of Pennsylvania quoted above, 74 % of those polled liked President Obama personally, reegardless of his policies. Likeability is the key deciding factor in a politician's success, and it doesn't hurt that 44% also support his polices, especially given that there is a whole industry built on misinforming the public of what his policies are.

Gee Edward, things haven't changes since you said that same thing yesterday...President Obama is STILL more popular than Reagon or Clinton at this stage of their presidencies...and they were both reelected easily. http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Approval-Center.aspx

Edward, how much did they pay you to write such drivel?

You're assuming an awful lot there pal, aren't you? You do know what happens when one assumes, don't you?

Edward---I have never had one minute of buyer's remorse over my vote for President Obama. That's not to say that I've agreed with 100% of what he has done as President, but every day I know that he keeps his eye on what it important, he works hard, he is well-informed on the issues and options and is doing the best he can for the entire country.

There seems to be a split of opinion over the meaning of the 2010 elections. We Democrats believe it was a statement of dissatisfaction with the state of the recovery, especially as it concerns jobs. Republicans, especially of the Tea Party wing, seem to believe that it was a mandate to cut everything in sight in order to balance the budget. I guess we'll find out in 2012 which is correct.

Presumably, Amy B.-

They liked President Obama last November, too...when they booted 53 incumbent House Democrats (and 1 Republican!) from office, and awarded control of that chamber to the Republicans, while adding 6 Republican seats in the Senate (including President Obama's former Illinois seat).

Liking President Obama personally, and supporting his policies are two very different things...as the President found out, in no uncertain terms, on Election Day last November.

Steeler Fan,

Did you see where two Republican State Legislators in WYOMING spoke last night AGAINST a bill proposed to the Wyoming assembly to ban abortion. The measure was defeated. They said that government needs to stay out of the doctor's office.

And then they went on to say (paraphrasing) - People have GROSSLY misunderstood the meaning of the 2010 election. And if they don't get busy on the agenda they SAID they would work on,...like JOB creation - they will be sorely mistaken AND out of a job in two years.

These were Republican women saying this in Dick Cheney's back yard. So, yeah, I'll take my chances on President Obama's rehire. He's a lock if they continue their mass confusion on what the people are saying!

Domenico and Mark, I hope you all are gearing up for some big POLL Dancing numbers on the Healthcare Reform Act when it's Anniversary rolls around in a couple of weeks. My guess is that now people are benefitting from it,...and understand that the sky didn't FALL - that they are, in general, in support of this piece of legislation. Thanks for all you do!

Joe in Albany - are you for real? you seriously FAULT Medicare for LOSING money??? In your mind, is it supposed to be profitable? Or even net-neutral? Hmm, let's see... caring for sick old folks - how do you make money... the answer is - you DON'T.

It is ridiculous to even contemplate that this business - caring for sick, poor, old, needy - should be profitable. NO. That's why we are the only developed country that has "medical insurance" as a for-profit business - because people like you like to think "everything should be run by private businesses". Forget about those who can't afford the insurance - they don't fit into the "for profit" model - thus, it's their fault, besides, they are either free-loaders who can't make enough money to afford medical care, or old folks, who will die soon anyway. Right????

I have a better idea. How about we make firefighting a for-profit business. Or the police - you want to be protected from thugs - pay up. Stop the robbery? Pony up. Put out a fire - that's gonna cost you good. Public schools should be closed - make em all private. Can't afford the school - too bad buddy...

Same for the army - wanna be defended - pay up. Like in the medieval times. that's the Tea Party way. No government, all business. also known as "survival of the fittest". "Every man for himself". "You are on your own". Is this the society you want to build? The humanity has been through it, and rejected it in favour of a more societal approach. You want to legislate the rest of us to the Stone Age? Aint gonna happen comrades.

Mixed Bag,

No, I never said I dislike Obama. He seems to be a fine man, a devoted husband and a loving father.

I just think he is in the wrong job. He obviously doesn't have near the experience needed to be the President. Way, way out of his league. He has charisma and some charm. He might be better suited as a PR man, or maybe a waiter in an upscale New York restaurant. His people skills would serve him well in those lines of work.

I believe that the Democratic party would be well served to look into the possibility of running someone else for President in 2012. Someone with real business experience. Someone who has served in the military. They may be backing a lame horse with Obama as their candidate.

It's comforting to know that at least one of the First Read lefties supports the President's Afghanistan policy.

Good for you, Nash.

Mixed Bag:

First of all, after all we have been through together, I am still just a "leftie" to you?

Wow, that hurts.

And in terms of Afghanistan . . . I don't think "war" is something to "support" . . . I think that there are many legitimate issues with the way the war has been run and financed. I think there are legitimate reasons that we went there. I think that most of those issues don't matter to the folks in the media who use every issue as a way to get what they want. . . America divided and arguing with each other, and not noticing that every power source in our country has been gobbled up by corporations who are rigging the game in their favor. Again.

Nash:

Good morning and I agree with you. I think the GOP/TP is talking so much about Foreign Policy is because they do not have a good domestic one. Still no ideas on how the create jobs in this country, no ideas on how to keep an improving economy to continue moving forward.

Their idea of a Job Plan is to loose jobs by their DRACONIAN Spending cuts. Their idea for helping the economy is the same Spending Cuts which will only help to stall the economy. Even Bernanke agrees with that along with Zandi, CBPP, CBO and a bevy of leading economists both republican and democratic.

Great point US Navy. . . the sad irony is that every time their "plans" don't work . . . they simply take to the airwaves and blame somebody else . . . and half of America believes it.

It's just a game to these folks.

Relax, Nash-

That was simply my way of distinguishing you from the handful of conservatives who have the temerity to show up at First Read on a regular basis. Surely "leftie" isn't as offensive as some of the epithets we're routinely tagged with?

Anyway...I'd focus on the final line of my comment.

Mixed Bag:

Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and respond . . . twice . . . I am going to take that to mean something good. :o)

I'll go further, USN, to say that Conservatives want to divert attention to foreign policy because ANY attention to domestic policy risks notice that their program consists entirely of a war on the rights of individuals and an economic war on the middle class.

It's a well known fact, when the GOP/TP don't have anything to offer to the discussion they try to change the subject, which is daily. They have to be told what to think and what to say.

Thank you Nashville fan I was thinking the same thing myself.

Great post, Nash---we need to recognize the smoke and mirrors tactics used to divert attention away from important issues.

The other problem is the media's tendency to distill everything into compartments---the Afghanistan situation is complicated and can't be discussed or resolved in a 1 minute sound bite.

This is the common magician slight of hand technique that corporate media (through their corporate masters) would like - look at this hand while I steal your wallet with my other hand. It is as old as Merlin himself.

IR - rather unusual for you to cross over to the conservative side isn't it?...

So here I set this winter realizing that the more things change the more they stay the same. Same rush to judgment. Same disregard for reality. Same unwillingness to listen. Don’t ask them what plans they have if things don’t work just exactly as they say they will ‘cause they don’t have any. Their minds are already made up so you shouldn’t confuse their delusion with reality. Just like ’02 despite a bunch of evidence to the contrary looks like they’ve just about got their reality to match up with their delusions so off they’re going again

this budget issue is never going to be solved until the GOP agrees to tax the rich and stop giving them tax cuts you can cut the budget all you want but if you turn around and give the cuts to the rich and big business then you are not going to help anything or anybody. the tax cuts have got to stop and some one is going to have to pay more in taxes . in my way of looking at things the rich are the ones that need to pay more. the ones making more than 500,000 thousand dollars a year should have to pay more . the tax breaks to big oil ,and farmers to stop growing certain crops which is stupid in the first place . nasa ,should be cut out until we get control of our debt or at least cut back some ,but no cut to healthcare ,asst on heating oil for the poor ,or any asst. for the very poor . cut all aid to for foreign countries. a freeze all salaries to all governmental workers at present levels . plce a tax on companies shipping goods back in to this country. so that the goods made over here will be able to compete .

turn our attention to jobs nothing else but jobs jobs . ALL WE HEARD FROM BOEHNER WAS MR OBAMA WHERE IS THE JOBS > WELL ALL we have heard from Boehner is abortion ,and 100 other things that could have waited . and not a word about jobs . where are the JOBS boehner . we added 192000 jobs last month to manufacturing as a direct result of the DEMS AND PRESIDENT OBAMA NOT ONE IDEA FROM THE GOP>who don't have any dam ideas how to put people back to work but they have ideas that will put 700000 people out of a job . good work GOP well to go . and Boehner got a pat on the back from his tea party cronies .

Good post, Jody----the Ohio situation is yet another reminder, as if we needed it, that elections do have consequences--and not only Presidential elections but local elections as well.

I think you are right that the Republicans' focus on the 11 budget before even getting to the 12 budget seems like a stalling device. If the economy and jobs situation improves, they can take credit for it (you saw some of them take credit for Dec. 10 and Jan 11 numbers before they were even sworn in) and if the economy and jobs don't improve, then they can run against the bad economy. Win/win for them, although it doesn't help the country (but that isn't their primary aim).

jody - their is no FY 2011 budget, just a series of continuing resolutions. The democrats are groundless for not approving the houses plan of cutting $61 billion in FY 2011.

Even bernanke sees the proposed cuts as being too small to adversely affect our weak economy. His projected loss in the GDP is in tenths while the democrats say it is around 2%. Go figure on having any two economists reach a consensus.

Democrat resistance to addressing the budget deficit won't help them in 2012. Even unemployment below 8% won't help if the politicians don't address our ever increasing debt and obamas considering military action against Libya surely won't help either.

John Boehner has already admitted that they're ALL lousy negotiators. Thank you for putting this out there. Excellent work.

Just exactly how do you bargain under these circumstances?

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117290533.html

This racket has gone on long enough.

Tell you what- let's change the rules of the game.

No politicians of any stripe at the bargaining table. Taxpayers only. Vet them for the necessary background and experience, make sure neither they nor any family member is either a politician or a union member, and then let's see what kind of agreements come from those negotiations.

I am betting the unions will get a lot less.

Pietro:

Another great post today. What would the world look like without "Collective Bargaining" well for starters

Most people would not be enjoying their current Standard of Living, their wages would be a lot lower than they are today. Fewer people would be able to own their own home. Only those that can afford it would have Health Care and the resources to send their children to good schools. We would have fewer College graduates. We would have less research both medical and in technology. No Social Programs to help those in need. Our infrastructure would be worse than it already it. There would be more corruption in the fight for Power and Greed.

Just about everything we take for granite today would be gone, period. We would be a country totally controlled by the wealthy and Big Corporations. We would live, die, pray, and breed by their rules, not ours. Individual freedoms would be history.

nojoe:

I am betting the unions will get a lot less.

Oh, I don't know, no joe. According to John Boehner, those librarians and janitors are SCARY.

And so, just like John Boehner, the only solution you can think of is to change the rules of a game you admit being too weak to play. And do you seriously think that admission then makes you qualified to tell others how to think about it?

I don't know how you would "vet" taxpayers or what their "necessary background" would be in your opinion, but your idea fails right there because I'm sure the parties would never agree on what that would be.

And just in case you forgot, public workers pay taxes, too. And their wages buy goods and services that allow others to pay taxes. They're not rich. Governor Walker is talking about taking more than $3,000 out of the salary of a person who only makes $40,000 now, leaving that person with a lot less disposable income, at least from that person's point of view. When that money falls out of the economy, as you apparently hope it will do, not only will you be causing a lot of pain for people who didn't create this mess and who already make a lot less than those who did, you will also SELL a lot less, and make LESS MONEY, and FEWER TAXES will be collected, and DEFICITS will persist, and NOTHING will change.

This is the part that conservatives never confront. Your little idea for crushing the middle class just plain won't work. It certainly hasn't worked these past 30 years, has it?

And "unions," by the way, don't get anything, and this is not a "racket." Credit default swaps, now THAT was a "racket." Public workers work, and they get paid for what they do. Just like you, nojoe, except not as well. And just like anyone else they want to make a fair wage and live in dignity. It would be nice if you would show some respect for a change. Because you don't hold a candle to any teacher I've ever met as a human being.

And across the bargaining table from me, you wouldn't stand a chance.

Great response, Anna. In addition to your other points, you really hit the nail on the head with the economics of a public worker, or anyone who gets paid a wage or salary. It is very much a blind spot that many on the right who post here have. No jo claims to have an economics degree and yet she constantly dismisses this point on these boards on a daily basis.

Anna Molly - OK, is it just me, or is the bar for the 'average' annual salary a bit low? I would think that after taxes are deducted, that annual salary comes down to a job that pays slightly better than minimum wage!!

Is THIS the 'new' and improved 'vision' for the people of WI??

Not sure if anyone else has already posted this - I don't get to read every post every day, so if so, I apologize for the repeat - I only just became aware of it yesterday when another poster ("passive observer") made reference to it on another thread and got me curious to read more (I took the liberty of bolding part for emphasis). And if it has appeared before, maybe it bears repeating anyway:

"But restoring the American dream requires more than restoring a sound, productive economy, vitally important as that is. It requires a return to spiritual and moral values, values so deeply held by those who came here to build a new life. We need to restore those values in our daily life, in our neighborhoods and in our government’s dealings with the other nations of the world.

These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination. They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children. Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price."

Ronald Reagan

Labor Day Speech at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, New Jersey

September 1, 1980

Pietro:

Is THIS the 'new' and improved 'vision' for the people of WI??

Pretty much. And when pressed for details about whether that included benefits, Haney tried to weasel along the lines of Mike Huckabee. It's fun to catch these guys in their real candid moments, isn't it?

To tell you the truth, and knowing how WMC thinks, I'm not terribly surprised.

@ JoAnne -- LoL Just goes to show that it all depends on whose particular ox is gored. And sadly, nowadays it's the rich in this country who are feeling oppressed. The Koch brothers actually believe that THEIR freedoms have been infringed on by collective bargaining. The freedom to exploit other human beings, maybe. Just like slavery. Just like robber barons. No doubt they would favor repeal of that nasty 14th Amendment, too, and maybe the 13th, just for good measure.

You are right-on about one very important thing. The most compelling argument has always been the MORAL argument. As Rachel pointed out so strongly last night, when you put it that way, people know what's fundamentally right.

At 50 weeks a year, that amounts to $15. an hour, no benefits. It's better than carting groceries, but less than a skilled technician could earn. What kinds of jobs are these going to be? And where in the state will they be located? Two other questions for Anna Molly -- why does the Zoo Corridor get transportation money, and why is it so important to increase the amount of money/labor to work on child predators? If education gets cut, if programs get cut, won't there be more children sitting unsupervised at computers and vulnerable to cyber predators?

You want this to make sense, Kate? Take it up with Governor Walker, if you can find him. He's out of the capital right now on a bus tour. Too many loud and smelly protesters outside the People's House with bongo drums. it's so hard to concentrate on oppressing workers with all that racket going on.

The Zoo corridor is how his rich cronies get to work in their office towers downtown from their mansions in Waukesha County. I have to agree that road needs serious fixing, but so do a lot of other roads. And not just in Milwaukee.

As for child predators, don't worry about it, Kate. The kids will all be safe now that they're in tax-supported private and charter schools. It won't cost you less because it just takes money out of one pocket and puts it into another, but pay that no never mind. Walker knows best.

Scott Walker: Closed to people. Open for business. No need for negotiation; he knows best.

Wow, under Kate's plan, you don't even get paid vacation. Stunning, really.

This is $14.42 an hour by any HR calculator. That is GROSS income. I will assume they are expected to pay for their medical and pension - since they'll be private sector jobs? The "new and improved" Wisconsin will have people taking home somewhere south of $23K per year. Lookie lookie at all that disposable income left over. That should really work out for them. Kinda' like how the Superdome worked out for the people of New Orleans who were too poor to leave. Thank you Babs Bush for that reality check into the psyche of a typical "have" mentality.

Anna Molly - "O Brave New World, that has such people in't."

Shakespeare said that. And Aldous Huxley. _____________________________________________________________________

The problem is that republicans like Walker and GOP State Senators see the public workers as slobs and freeloaders.

The GOP have a derision for working folk and view them as Huxley would say the Delta's and Epsilon's of the world, toiling in misery for the perceived Alpha's and Beta's. That is what all that talk about "real americans" is all about.

Haven't read Brave New World in twenty years but it could be argued that the GOP is trying to enact that rigid class stratification system, economically at least.

Normally, you understand, I'm much more sedate and lady-like, but I think it would be highly appropriate if any statue to Walker would be in THIS style, which currently graces a small public plaza outside UW-Madison's football stadium, Camp Randall. After all, Walker has "balls," too, and he wants to "stick it" to the University in the form of drastically reduced funding.

http://photos.news.wisc.edu/photos/9986/view

Scott Walker: Closed to people. Open to business. Memorialized in bronze.

A Statue to Walker? Calling all pigeons, calling all pigeons. Patrick, I like it, let's start a fund.

Navy. I have a bent nickel to start it of.

Great visual there Navy

No. Polls don't mean anything unless the results are to your liking.

Yes! Only polls that support your point of view/opinion have any credibility here...

Quinnipac has their own "partial score" out today, and I am sure that someone will find that poll to be more to their liking...

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1562

Is there/are there sources that are acceptable to the left and right here? Many "debates"bog down when the objectivity of a source is questioned.

I do not care much or even put much faith in them as they are too easily manipulated to achieve ones desired results. But, they are fun to play with sometimes, if for no other reason than to toss them at people who like to toss them at us when they favor them.

Other than that I ignore most of them unless they are truly based on facts that can be verified. Like a lot od us say, the only valid poll is the one after the fact, like the day after the elections.

Read the cross tabs, dangerfield. The reason the two polls got such different numbers is fairly simple: the NBC poll vastly oversampled public workers.

Public workers of all stripes, ( teachers, cops, firefighters, clerks) represent about 6% of the labor force.

The NBC poll? 14%.

That kind of skewing will skew your results.

Then again, if that is the result you are looking for. . .

dangerfield:

Is there/are there sources that are acceptable to the left and right here? Many "debates"bog down when the objectivity of a source is questioned.

The right only accepts polls if the results come out the way they like. When the polls showed that the Democrats were going to get a "shellacking" in the 2010 elections, I don't recall reading any thing by a progressive claiming the polls were just a right wing conspiracy. Progressives sometimes complain about Rasmussen, but that's usually for the leading questions he asks and not because of any fudging of the numbers or bad sampling.

One unpleasant poll result might be dismissed as an outlier, but all these polls on public employees bargaining rights and increasing taxes on the wealthy to reduce the deficit are getting the same results.

"Interesting poll numbers...but do they really mean any more than a partial NBA score?"

Okay, that just took me back to one of George Carlins's earliest routines when he was playing the tv sportscaster - he'd run down all the finals, then end with "And in a partial score, Notre Dame 37".

I've had about enough poll dancing for one day; I think I'll go find me some Carlin to listen to on YouTube. Thanks for the memory, Dangerfield!

nojonobo

Read the cross tabs, dangerfield. The reason the two polls got such different numbers is fairly simple: the NBC poll vastly oversampled public workers.

Public workers of all stripes, ( teachers, cops, firefighters, clerks) represent about 6% of the labor force.

The NBC poll? 14%.

Geez, now you're just making stuff up. The poll found that 14% of the respondents were UNION members, not public workers. This is the question in the poll that nojonobo is lying about:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_Politics/___Politics_Today_Stories_Teases/2-24-28-11.pdf

QF7a/b Are you a current or retired labor union member? (ASK ONLY OF RESPONDENTS WHO SAY "NO" OR "NOT SURE" IN QF7a.) Is anyone else in your household a current or retired labor union member?
Labor union member .........................
14
Union household ...............................
8
Non-union household ........................
77
Not sure ..........................................
1

Nice catch, Houston. I guess the facts have a Liberal bias...again.

I am making up nothing, Hpuston. You are not reading the poll.

Question QF 3 asks about public employment- and the result is 14%.

Question QF 7a /b asks about union membership, which is, again, 14%, and household members, at 8%.

How did you do in stat? Cause, I got a 4.0.

nojonobo:

I am making up nothing, Hpuston. You are not reading the poll.

Question QF 3 asks about public employment- and the result is 14%.

OK, so you didn't make that one up. Sorry I accused you. But again, you're grasping at straws. The 14% figure apparently agrees with other studies like the one I quote below. You're just nitpicking so you can ignore that all the recent polls on the public's attitude on collective bargaining and taxation agree with each other, but they don't agree with you. Tough luck.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/1/44126697.pdf

OECD stands for "Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)"

The U.S. government employed 14% of the total labour force in 2005, just under the OECD average. Government employment in the United States is decentralised, with the vast majority of staff employed by state and local governments.

Oh, by the way: The Quinnipiac poll was a survey of registered voters while the CBS and NBC polls were a sample of all adults. Registered voters tend to be more conservative than all adults in general, so that explains the difference in results. The results of all the polls are consistent with each other. No conspiracies or incompetence in any of the polling organizations are involved. Nojonobo was too busy looking for nits to pick to notice what was right in front of her face.

I'm going to ask this question again. I have asked it several times over the past week or so but have yet to get an answer. I'll not hold my breath getting one from people such as nojo or jAS1 but here it goes again.

I see the usuals screaming about public sector workers and their "bloated " salaries and "lavish" benefits and hysterically claiming that a tenured teacher making 70K a year (that's salary PLUS benefits) is an "upper" income therefore they believe it is perfectly fair to ask the public employees to take a pay cut of 5-10% to help with the states budget shortfall. (which by the way was created by giving more tax cuts to the upper crust) Back up a few months and the same people who are screaming about public workers being overpaid and making "upper" incomes were hysterical with their hair on fire over a proposed 3% tax increase on people making 250K a year or more. A few months back 250K a year was just an average middle class income to these screamers. But today, 70K a year is a bloated upper income to the very same people who screamed the loudest about the proposed 3% tax increase on 250K or more. Will one of you screaming banshees please explain the rationale behind this blatant contradiction.

My numbers are the latest available, and are from 2008.

6.2% of the workforce.

And, to Shellie- what part of taxpayer money do you not understand?

Firms have a built in incentive to pay their employees the correct amount- underpay, and lose good employees. Overpay, and lose the business.

Not so public entities, which cannot go out of business.

Also, public employees are protected by multiple layers- civil service rules, ( and, there is a really funny old I Love Lucy episode, wherein the public servant tells her " I am civil service- I am in this job until I am dead), unions, ( which will go to the mat for their employees, no matter what they do, or are you the only person in America who has not seen that video of the Chrysler employees drinking and toking up on company property?), and, in the case of teachers, tenure, which means you had better hope they retire, because that is the only way to get rid of bad teachers. Even when they are so terrible you would not let them instruct goldfish, they get paid, and report to "rubber rooms". Some of them have actually struck students- others are merely drunks, or entirely incompetent. If you have children, here is something that should keep you up nights- very often, they are sent out to substitute.

That is not to mention al, of the other legal protections in place in even the private sector- age, sex, and race discrimination laws. ADA. The amorphous "unlawful termination" that covers just about any breathing being.

You wonder why so many companies have gone off shore? Try, just try, to get rid of a bad employee. It's cheaper to retain them, and hire someone else to actually do the job.

When it comes from a private business, it comes from their pockets.

When it comes to a public employee, it comes from taxpayer pockets.

And when the negotiators are bought and paid for by the unions, it is a racket that the taxpayer loses.

Get it?

nojo.....

When it comes from a private business, it comes from their pockets.

When it comes to a public employee, it comes from taxpayer pockets.

In other words we want their service as long as we don't have to pay for it. Anything that is paid for by taxpayers we should get rid of. We need to cut back on service men, teachers, public hospitals, police, and firemen. The only way they should stay on is as volunteers. How dare they ask for any compensation.

You wonder why so many companies have gone off shore? Try, just try, to get rid of a bad employee. It's cheaper to retain them, and hire someone else to actually do the job...Also, public employees are protected by multiple layers- civil service rules,..That is not to mention al, of the other legal protections in place in even the private sector- age, sex, and race discrimination laws. ADA. The amorphous "unlawful termination" that covers just about any breathing being..

I suppose , based on your comments, we should just bring back slavery and get rid of child labor laws, since that's what the companies that ship offshore depends on. Employees have no rights, only the rich employers do, you know , like the regular slave owners. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Just another tool of the proletariat. ;-)

Houston:

She is recovering from her smack down (again) from the moderators of this board. She must be up to a half dozen by now.

And yet she continues to make exactly the same claims even after they've been shown to be bogus.

That's all no joe knows, repeat the GOP/TP talking points, she has to be told what the think and what to say.

Anna Molly:

I watched him yesterday on Larry O and I wanted to throw something at his smug face. What a repugnant human (and I use that term very lightly) being. You could smell the hate and arrogance in your living room.

US Navy,

Who else was in your living room? If the answer is no one, then the smell of hate and arrogance could only have one source. As AM so noted to me yesterday on another thread, irony is a pain (or words to that effect, or is it affect?).

Having said that in jest, I have a serious question for you, as you are no doubt a liberal (based upon your viewing of the Larry O show, and previous remarks posted by you), do you condone the behavior of the protestors in this instance? I'm pretty sure that you were offended at the actions of the tea party members in their rallys, and at the actions of folks that demonstrated in the town hall meetings regarding the health care reform. Is it okay to be obnoxious and threatening only when it's a liberal cause, or is it okay in all events? My opinion is that it's not okay in either case, my impression is that your opinion differs. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.

Living in L.A.

Wow, using up your credibility as a poster here to defend State Senator Glenn Grothman, a politician who launched his swiftboat against a crowd of teachers, police, and firefighters by calling them "slobs" and "a different breed." Not a smart move, in my opinion, if you want to be taken seriously by the majority of Americans.

Also not a smart move: taking a potshot at our own U.S. Navy Disabled Veteran- Retired whose posts are always civil and fact based.

Nice words there Amy.

I never cease to be amazed how some people can defend the actions of these incredibly arrogant, out of touch, GOP/Tps. And then to compound that defense, by taking a rather unnecessary nasty swipe at, as you sa,y a very civil and a very kind poster who's posts are always fact based...USN Thanks Navy for your service and for all you do here.

Amy,

I'm an acknowledged Republican, on this site, I have little or no credibility for any comment in any context. Read the comment again, I asked about the behavior of the protestors, in the context of the behavior of the tea party protest rallies, and the town hall meetings. The questions stands, "is the behavior of the protestors okay or not". I've not yet seen Navy's response, so if you have one, I'd be more than happy to hear it.

Civl and fact based -

"I wanted to throw something at his smug face. What a repugnant human (and I use that term very lightly) being. You could smell the hate and arrogance in your living room." from right above.

Very civil.

"We would be a country totally controlled by the wealthy and Big Corporations. We would live, die, pray, and breed by their rules, not ours. Individual freedoms would be history. " 7.3 today

Factual in every way, no opinions expressed there at all.

Now, I'm not denigrating his service, nor am I questioning his overall civility and factual posting, as a matter of fact, I'm not entirely sure why you chimed in, based upon what I've read previously, Navy doesn't seem to have any problems answering questions, unlike many posters on both the left and the right side of the fence.

"Not a smart move, in my opinion, if you want to be taken seriously by the majority of Americans." -

Do you honestly believe that "the majority of Americans" even look at this board? Take a look at any of the threads, (pick a smaller one, it won't make a whole lot of difference) and count the names of posters, if you get to 100, congratulations.

But I'll ask the question again, if either you or Gingerbread Momma (who also felt the need to protect Navy, and add kindness into his character) would like to offer your view of whether or not the protesters behaved appropriately, I would love to hear your viewpoint. In all seriousness, maybe you should take a look at some of my prior postings, I generally have a more moderate slant on things than you might expect.

@ LivLA

You're living in lalaland and you have the nerve to toss brick bats? The Fantasy Factory? Smogville? Where the Val meets the Gal at a porn studio?

Gimme a break.

You're probably blogging on you blackberry while stuck in six-lanes-not-moving traffic on your way to "take a meeting".

Pull you head out of the La Brea Tar Pits and show some respect for US NAVY. His posts are among the most intelligent, thoughtful and civil on this board. I always learn something from Navy and you could too if you'd quit worrying about your tan and actually read what the man has to say.

Sheesh, lalaland, can you imagine?

Skip,

Nice attack, I'm impressed at your oh so accurate view of all of us that live in "lalaland". I'll offer you the same opportunity, post your opinion as respects the above question. Just in case you're having difficulty in finding the question, here it is again:

"do you condone the behavior of the protestors in this instance?"

For context, read the follow on statement to Navy.

"I'm pretty sure that you were offended at the actions of the tea party members in their rallys, and at the actions of folks that demonstrated in the town hall meetings regarding the health care reform. Is it okay to be obnoxious and threatening only when it's a liberal cause, or is it okay in all events? My opinion is that it's not okay in either case, my impression is that your opinion differs. Please correct me if I'm wrong."

See that statement there Skip, "please correct me if I'm wrong"? That's an opportunity to clarify your stance, and hopefully, correct someone else's misperception. All it requires is a pretty short declarative statement, something on the order of "Gee whiz, I don't condone that type of behavior in any circumstance".

It's truly amazing that so many of you are offended (apparently) by the question, and seem to need to resort to distortions of my purpose in asking the question. My purpose is pretty simple, I'd like to the know your answers. If you were offended by the behavior of the tea partiers and the town hall meeting folks, are you equally offended here? I gave my answer, I find it unacceptable, how is that so offensive to those of you that posted a response?

I'm getting the sense that even asking the question is offensive, which tends to make me believe that when you are asked to state your opinion, you're afraid to, the reasons for which, I can only surmise. Perhaps you're afraid of appearing to be "not liberal enough" if you don't condone this behavior, or perhaps you're afraid you'll be shunned by other liberals, or perhaps you feel a conservative's question doesn't deserve an answer.

In any event, I hope all of you have a good weekend. I'm going to work on my tan, take a meeting, and go find some traffic to sit in while I text on my Blackberry. Thanks for the mildly amusing responses, and for the absolutely civil conversations.

... Corruption and waste has cost the US government billions of reconstruction dollars in ... for much of the waste related to the nearly $200 billion ... report to Congress in ...
www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ieVEsoUGBIVVdFk5cEO3wLSQuwIA?docId=CNG.b8be1fa9ceeaf77e3700b0e75ec87ead.3b1

In July 1997, FBI agents raided Columbia/HCA accounting offices in seven states, including Florida. Within days, Columbia’s board of directors ousted Scott, but gave him a nearly $10 million severance package, including stock shares worth $300 million and a $1 million a year consulting contract.

http://www.wusf.usf.edu/news/2010/06/18/whistleblowers_say_rick_scott_knew_about_medicare_fraud

Would this maybe be the kind of fraud we should be talking about? Seems to me if you’re really good at it even you can get elected Governor

I can pretty well take any govener name out of the air and give you an example of corruption including Brown in California and CCPOA association with MJ (Their President) while Brown was the AG. But I am talking Federal spending and Federal contracts if you want to talk union I will be more then happy to talk about that.

Jake last I checked Medicare was a Federal Program. Mr Scott was just the most egress example of somebody that has defrauded the Taxpayer's and reaped millions and then managed to avoid prosecution

True, see my post above about Fraud in Medicaid, DOD and the Federal Government. There are billions and billions of dollars being wasted that if recovered (stopped) would exceed the current Spending Cuts and WOULD NOT cost us hundreds of thousands of jobs and would not slow down the economy. Both parties need to address these.

Like I said Independent give me a name I'll give you an example of a corrupt politician. Any name

By the way the Brown and CCPOA issue was also a felony. But being he was the AG it worked out well for both of them.

There ya go again Navy, filling our minds with facts instead of name-calling and empty rhetoric.

Take a page from the GOP/TP bloggers on this board. Call folk mentally deficient or kool-aid addicted and spout the slogans and catch phrases you heard on Rush this morning.

Get with the program Dude or you're going to lose all your credibility :-)

That was later debunked as a lie.

The film dosnt' lie. Just look it up online

When was that debunked a lie? They have 7 minutes on You Tube, and guess what, no palm trees. It was wrong what they did no matter how you spin it, plan wrong. What I did like is that a Democrat stepped in to help him.

Lawrence O'Donnell played part of the video. So your premise is false.

The irony being, of course, that Glenn (whom I know personally) was trapped only because his buddy Scott Walker had locked up the Capitol so even HE couldn't get in. The People's House, indeed. Closed even to those who are "like us," to use Walker's language.

So far, Glenn has called the protesters "slobs," a "different breed" (subhuman?), and "not normal." Read my post above. And I'm here to tell you that Glenn is the one who is not "normal."

Is anyone surprised that the protesters might not take kindly to being insulted that way?

But no one hurt him. He even admitted that. He just objected to their being "loud" and "smelly."

God save the people's representatives from having to confront loud and smelly dissent. That's SCARY, at least to people like you. And, while you're at it, stay away from Tea Party rallies. And be SURE to stay out of redneck bars in northern Wisconsin on Saturday nights. Because I've been there, done that, and I'm here to tell you that's not "normal" either.

It's American. Just like those protesters.

Even Grothman didn't think he was "attacked."

Grothman downplayed the situation and told the paper he didn't think he was ever in any real danger.

"I really think if I had had to, I could have walked through the crowd and it would have been okay," he told the Cap Times.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117228243.html?sort=last+to+first&page=9

The problem with your comment is there are alot of libreals that could also be based on your theory. And being I live not to far from San Fransisco I am pretty well a expert on Libreals.

Jake

And being I live not to far from San Fransisco I am pretty well a expert on Libreals.

You're an expert on spelling, too, I see.

Everybody take a little test. Read the definitions of these two words. Then come back and tell us which fits you best.

Liberal:

a : marked by generosity : openhanded <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <aliberal meal> c : ample, full

3
obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious

4
: not literal or strict : loose <a liberal translation>

5
: broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism,orthodoxy, or traditional forms

6
a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalismb capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism;especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives.

Conservative:

a : of or relating to a philosophy of conservatismb capitalized : of or constituting a political party professing the principles of conservatism: as (1) : of or constituting a party of the United Kingdom advocating support of established institutions (2) : progressive conservative

3
a : tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : traditionalb : marked by moderation or caution <a conservativeestimate>c : marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners

4
: of, relating to, or practicing Conservative Judaism

— con·ser·va·tive·ly adverb
— con·ser·va·tive·ness noun

I bet you most social conservative types would define a liberal as #4 - lacking moral restraint. The rest of the GOP would joke that liberals are #3 - obsolete as of 2012?

Me, as a liberal I rather like definition "a" and would hope to think that people that know me would consider me #5 - open minded.

True. I would think it is obvious, we are talking to wacko righties like you.

Yeh and we sure do wish you'd start paying your entertainment backcharges so they could could take these silly ads out of the middle of things and give us a raise for putting up with Yo-Yo's like you

There you progressives go again...wanting someone else to pay for your existence.....typical

Talk about bat-crazy has anyone seen the interview with Michael Moore? I have a question to the progressives here, do you agree with Moore, and if so, can you explain why.

True. What we want is less corporate welfare.

aaaahhhh the poor True American is whinng, must have got dinged for not polishing his boots.

Patrick. What you want is the "government" to pay for everything. You want them/us to keep spending into oblivion to compensate for your inability to make your own way in the world. This is not about corporate welfare, it's about sad, sad little you and the fact that life hasn't turned out the way you planned. Now, you want someone else to pay for your own short commings. Maybe you can get Michael Moore to give you a hand-out, as he is a perfect example of Capitalisn at it's finest......oh, but wait, he wants "big business" to pay for everybody too. (just not with his money)

We are on this forum, true american, because we like to DISCUSS issues. We find that discussion helps us to understand isues and shows us sides of a question that we might not have consideered. Conservatives, it would seem, don't understand this phenomenon. They prefer to be told what to think and say. They don't seem to want to hear differing opinions. They DO seem to continuously say the same things over and over and over...

True American,

I am proud to consider myself a liberal. I've also worked 30 years, last week nearly 70 hours. I've never so much as even claimed unemployment compensation when I could have. I also help take care of my elderly mother financially. I don't expect to get anything from you or anyone else. I do however feel we should take care of those in need and not give tax credits/breaks to oil companies.

If we don;t have a spending problem how come we're spending 200 billion dollars on duplicate departments a year? And thats what we know for sure.

Why are we rewarding the richest 2% and corporations with tax cuts. Why are we giving Oil Companies tax cuts and subsidies. There is another 200 Billion at least.

"Let the one who is without sin "snip - biased slant " cast the first stone.

Everyone has a biased slant. Some are better than others at hiding their own. To borrow a moniker from a poster here, not sure how he came about it, but I'm sure most posters have a mixed bag of opinions, beliefs and viewpoints that ...

except for the cheerleaders.

LOL true. The same ones up there "F" up the federal budget they want them to do something about it (And thats both parties).