President Obama this morning took another swipe at presumed 2012 candidate Mitt Romney for his health-care plan

Thanks President Obama... Smile :-)

I may be a little slow today, and maybe you had to hear it to catch it, but I don't read any zing here. Sounds to me like Obama is agreeing with Mitt. I don't get it.

Rhino40

I may be a little slow today, and maybe you had to hear it to catch it, but I don't read any zing here. Sounds to me like Obama is agreeing with Mitt. I don't get it.

This can be considered a "zing" against Romney because "Romneycare" in Mass. closely resembles "Obamacare". Obama modeled many aspects of his health care plan on Romney's plan. It is hard to run on a platform for GOP presidential candidate when the GOP is attacking a health care plan that closely resembles one that Romney created. How do you explain to your constituents that "ROMNEYCARE -GOOD, OBAMACARE- BAD," when they are almost identical?

Wow... now, compare that to the tea party vitriol, and I think you can see why the middle will be back in his camp by November of 2012. At least, I keep running away from the DEATH PANEL chanters, I don't know about you guys, but that wasn't even a swipe, it was much worse, a compliment! Romney may not survive it.

Stompy & Dennis you are both correct, it was a compliment.

MSNBC is so confident in their ability to manipulate their followers that they figured a biased headline followed by "zing" would be enough to for most of their readers to ignore the actual quote.

"Obama gives props to Romney on health care"

"In a moment that Mitt Romney's future GOP opponents couldn't have scripted better themselves, President Obama Monday issued a full-throated embrace of the former Massachusetts governor's stance on health care."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

OK, so I'm not crazy. I get the guilty by association slant. Here is a kicker for you. I'm actually liking Obama. (read my profile and you will understand why that is a shock) The fact is, if so many dems are turning their backs on him, he must be doing the right thing. Of course most of the GOP kind of makes me sick right now as well. How about this, Obama/Mitt in 2012. Dump Biden he is a waste. And screw party affilliation. It would be great for the country.

Think about it. You have a president who is beloved by, well at least half the country and people of many other countries. Then add a VP that can actually ballance a budget and is a well documented turn around artist (not to be confused with flip flopper) Imagine ellecting a presidency that is actually good for the country. Now wouldn't that be a shock.

I don't know what Mitt Romney did as governor. He was never in the state. His Lt. Governor, Kerry Healey, ran the state more than he did. He was always away somewhere.

Well, if Mitt can survive the coming Tea Party scathing, he might be able to attract the middle if he backs his Health Care plan. At least he HAS a solution!

Rino,

You mean makinga corporate raider VP. Romney has made his living by doing hostile take overs and destroying American jobs, breaking down the manufacturing plants, selling the equptment for scrap and reopening the plants in China. Are you Nuts.

I can't understand Americans not being unnerved by the fact people go with out health coverage, my step father right now had his insurance change and he cannot afford his medication...he has leukemia and has been without it for 3wks...this is more than a political disscusion, it's people's lives...where's the patriotism? http://thebohemiandilettante.blogspot.com/2011/02/un-patriotic-patriotism.html

Zing! Nice one Dawn.

Dawn:

He always forgets the facts. As President Obama has said before "It's in there" and has been. When they have no facts they try to make some up.

I guess you are saying that "Bob" represents "they"?

Healthcare is equally accessible for all. We have Medicaid, SCHIP, UP, Social Security, Medicare and so forth for every poor American in this country and half of the people from Mexico as well. They can visit the exact same doctor as the rich visit.

Quit with the BS line that this is about "accessible health care".

Yeah and anyone with private insurance pays for theirs and all of these other programs...many on these programs complain about government socialism...you can't make it up

Believe, I have to assume you have never had to shop for health care insurance as, say, a self-employed individual, or a middle class worker whose employer either stopped offering insurance or never did in the first place. The truth is that if you don't qualify for subsidized health care, health insurance preimums are so expensive as to be prohibitive, or accessible, for most Americans. I had employees asking me 10 years ago, as their premiums increased double-digit every year and their benefits reduced so small business could afford to still offer insurance, "when will this stop". Until private insurance is forced into a more competitive market based system, it won't.

Health care is not currently "accessible" for most americans. And it is those same Americans who are the engines of our economy.

mdcook, actually, I did just that, payed for my own health insurance, for years. It's expensive, sure, but not unaffordable or prohibitive. You just have to cut down on the beer.

Yes, the rates of insurance have been going up with double digit increases for over the past decade but the cost of care has been going up at that rate as well. The profit margin of the insurance industry over the past several years has been around 3% - as an industry and not individual companies. This is much lower than other industries such as REIT Health Care Facilities - 24.6%, Drug Manufacturers, Major - 16.5%; Healthcare IS - 9.3%. Thus one of the reasons that you are seing double digit increases is insurance rates is because the cost of care is increasing at the same rate.

C. Smith, are you really saying that if it is affordable for you that it is affordable for everyone? What a colossally self absorbed and unaware viewpoint.

I am self employed and pay for my own health insurance, but if it goes up for two more years at the same rate is has for the last two, it will no longer be affordable for me, and I will have to drop it. It already costs me more than I pay in rent.

Funny thing about the Health Care Bill - it makes Insurers cap rates on people aged 65 to be only 5 times as high as those that are 18.

The great thing about that is this law is it just allowed Insurance companies to raise rates on people who don't need insurance (18 year olds) and also now is forcing them to buy it or they will be taxed.

The other great thing about this bill is that it cuts Medicare payments by 20%, that is how this bill lowers the deficit for the Gov't. Yes we get a lower deficit, but now we get stuck with a higher co pay when we turn 65.

As an investor I must say this is one great bill, the revenue that will be created for the Insurance companies will be a boon to my stock portfolio. I'm glad we hire politicians that stand up to Wall St and clean house.

Since my health care costs will sky rocket when I retire I will at least be able to offset that cost with my gains from investing in Big Corporations

To: PleaseInsultMe!

Just coz you came up with one of the funnest names of us all here,

doesn't mean you don't have to check out the actual facts once in a while.

0bamacare is unconstitutional and is no longer the law of the land - so its not really in there. SCOTUS will end up ruling sometime next year that the individual mandate is unconstitutional and therefore since there is no sever ability the entire law will be tossed. The more we find out about it - the less we like it.

How is mandatory sign up of health care any different than mandatory sign up for selective service? They are both forced on you, and I don't hear anyone b!tching about that being unconstitutional.

There are no states in the union where you can drive a car without insurance, and in all of these states, you would be fined and your car could potentially be seized. It will be very difficult for those that oppose the health care to argue against that precedence.

Also, to everyone complaining about premiums and deductibles raising; Until we have a health care insurance system that allows for consumer choice, like we have with auto insurance, we will be at the mercy of the monopolistic companies that currently provide health care insurance. Perhaps what you should be complaining about is that the health care legislation did not go far enough to break up the monopolies.

Take a moment to investigate how much money politicians and the media gets from health care providers. You really think that they are going to be honest with you about this reform?

Gee Dennis, you sound like ME sometimes!

I can't tell you how much it hurts my pride to hear people spit out all that vomit, like Obama is a Muslim, or he was born in Kenya, or any of all that crap. Hey, Tea Party - Wake Up. We who voted for Republicans in the past, based on IDEAS have been chased AWAY. Come up with ideas instead of hate, solutions instead of accusations, or watch as what has happened in every single similar election since the 1800's (new president from opposite party as previous president) except 1, and Obama gets a second term.

Hate Health Care Reform? How would YOU fix it? What is YOUR plan?

There were a couple of ideas that the Republicans offered, but

President Obama and the Democrats wouldn't listen. If, you go back to all the conversations you will hear some of the solutions, like more competition, buy insurance across state lines, I don't recall some of the other fixes, but this socialized medical law is a bankruptcy bill for countries. It has never worked and will not work with government control. Repeal it, it is unconstitutional anyway.

Every state should form a Direct Care Alliance of all health care providers, physicians, labs, clinics, and hospitals. If people pay medical providers directly on an incremental basis, the cost of care drops down to between $50 and $150 a month, depending on age and health condition. Not only that, but you get better care because there's no insurance company looking over the doctor's shoulder. Advocate direct care in your state--we don't need insurance, big business, or government in our relationship with our doctors.

zeroscout

"There are no states in the union where you can drive a car without insurance, and in all of these states, you would be fined and your car could potentially be seized. It will be very difficult for those that oppose the health care to argue against that precedence."

At least I have the choice to own or drive a car, this is the stupidest example ever used, what is your definition of MAINDATES anyway? Government can't even run our country, social security, medicare, I've seen enough examples, amagine the mess they will make. You think health care is expensive now, wait till it's free.

Zeroscout... what does the issue of a State mandating that car owners buy insurance have to do with the Federal Government mandating that EVERYONE has to purchase health insurance?

As far I know, the State does not require those who do not own a car to purchase automobile insurance. That's the rub. Purchase of automobile insurance is limited to those who willfully choose to purchase a car and operate it. Mandating that every person purchase health insurance just because the Government thinks this is important to have is quite stretch from your example. What else can the Federal Government mandate us to purchase, just because they think it's a good idea?

Should the Government mandate life insurance? We're all going to die. How about purchasing bicycles? Riding a bike instead of driving would be healthier. Should we be required to purchase vegetables each week? Eating a healthier diet would lower medical costs? What about mandating us to purchase a gun so we can enroll in a "well regulated Militia"? Isn't that in the Constitution too?

I agree that health care reform is important to our country. However, as Regan said... Government isn't the solution, Government is the problem. Instead of a 2,000 page bill, filled with obscure and hidden costs, language so Byzantine that legislators can't even understand it, filled with special provisions to bribe electors (e.g., Cornhusker Kickback), what we need is a transparent, pragmatic, open market system that relies on the private sector and the forces of the free enterprise to effect change.

The Goverment's track record in managing nation wide program is pretty absmly (e.g. Social Security, Medicad, Medicare, Amtrack, USPS, HUD, Dept. of Ed, Dept. of Energy). What makes anyone think this behemoth will be the panacea that liberal democrats praise it to be? In the words of Nancy Pelosi, who infamously said "we need to pass the bill in order to know what's in it"... well, the people have seen it now, and they spoke in November, and will again in 2012.

I agree with Christine that cutting out the insurance companies would be the best way to go. Setting up employer based insurance would be good since many employers already supply their employees with insurance but many small companies cannot afford to supply their employees with health insurance without cutting wages. I agree that everyone should have access but I think our health system is broken and will not be an easy fix. Requiring everyone to buy health insurance will pool a lot of money together and help fix our debt. Everyone needs to see a doctor at some point. I think that a subsidized plan that is based on income and therefore more affordable for tose who do not qualify for Medicaid but are still low income would also be a good way to go.

Denissr

Tax payer, you say the Government can't run any good programs. Who do you think will? Remember the Banks, The Savings and Loan, The Auto Companies, The Stock Market, The Minning Companies, The Oil Companies on and on? You really can't see what a mess the Corporations have made of Health Care? Really? Government run Medicare is one of the biggest and best and operates on a 2% overhead

You really want to use these examples; 1st our constitution allows government to REGULATE not MANDATE commerance among the states, what about health care providers who only operate in one state only? The banks, savings & loans were always regulated & insured by the Feds, don't you remember the fall of the S&L's of the past and then the banks triggering our current depression?, The Stock Market, Lehman Brothers the largest of many others who failed lost billions of investors funds in the beginning of the depression.The Mining Companies, The Oil Companies, are in the pockets of politicians supporting them, The Auto Companieson were LOANED fed funds, held by investors. Government run Medicare is one of the largest areas of fraud, billions are paid out to anyone who simply submits bills are no verification and little enforcements is used, this has been going on for 20+ years, only recently making the news. Let government REGULATE not MANDATE, everything in medical care under this bill will be taxed, currently tax free that many is OK, but who really pays the taxes anyway? It's just another form of tax increase.

Unity- As if you "no" whats in the bill?.......you are a perfect candidate to be a "poster child" for cluelessness.

If you're going to try to insult someone's intelligence or education, then at least proofread your own comment. I won't point out your error here, I know you can figure it out for yourself.

I agree. Have been saying that all along. Do some some reading and thinking on your own.

Fizzled - whats wrong with whats being posted above? Whats your beef? Youre just nitpicking arent you? :)

Let's just say I work for a elected official and have read it.. and yes I "know" better.....thanks

Unity, You are absolutely correct when you say we need to sink more money into education.

By the way your correction is noted, it's "know" and not "no" in that context. It's also "an elected official" and not "a elected official". Can I ask for which official you work?

I do need to double check my spelling when I am posting on this sight, but I am usually in too big of a hurry and when you tweet and text too much, this is what happens. I try not to post unless I have a very strong opinion and I try to make it short. I will tell you Freedom Hound I work for a Republican and have for over 20 years, he is one of the good guys.

It is posted by First Read in the next article.

JoannaSmith1 -- Do you know what the minimum wage is? Do you know what a 40hr work week is? Do you know what child-labor is? These are just a few things that were negotiated by unions. If you take away a worker's right to negotiate then there will be nothing stopping employers and corporations from raising the number of hours workers must work, take away the minimum wage, and take away the minimum working age. There will be no-one around to defend everyday workers. That goes for non-union workers as well.

But then again, I guess you are retired, using medicare, and collecting your social-security so I guess you don't care. And why should you care if the retirement age is raised... after all, you already collect yours. But wouldn't it have been fun for you if Bush had gotten his way and privatized social security. Your money would have gone down the drain.............then you would have been complaining.

The trouble with people like you JoannaSmith1 is that you don't care about anyone else but your yourselves. You also have no clue about what actually is going on in this country or the world. All you lot know is "Life according to FOX".

When did collective bargaining become a right? If it is a right then there are hella lot of people that don't enjoy it.

Ramboet

But then again, I guess you are retired, using medicare, and collecting your social-security so I guess you don't care. And why should you care if the retirement age is raised... after all, you already collect yours. But wouldn't it have been fun for you if Bush had gotten his way and privatized social security. Your money would have gone down the drain.............then you would have been complaining.

your almost right ramboet, she is not retired, she does not collect any thing, she lives on the moon, where there is no oxygen to breath. there are no tax, unions, schools, neighbors, cops, Firemen, so while you ask, why she has the weird additude toward any thing i hope this explans it.

Down with "Obamacare" right JoannaSmith. Lets keep the "WallStreetcare" we have right now. It works so well.

ramboet: Do you know what the minimum wage is? Do you know what a 40hr work week is? Do you know what child-labor is?

Do you know what a buggy-whip is? It was a useful tool, many decades ago, but today, not so much.

Kind of like unions.

When did collective bargaining become a right? If it is a right then there are hella lot of people that don't enjoy it.

The First Amendment to the Constitution gives people the right to peaceably assemble and petition the government. If they want to peaceably assemble into a union and petition the government for better wages and working conditions, they absolutely have the right to.

You have collective bargaining rights too, if you care to exercise them. Join with somebody or a group of people, form a union, and see if you have more leverage together than you would alone.

Ramboet is obviously someone who has no problem forcing other people to sacrifice in order to aid himself or the people he cares about.

Taxes should be raised. All citizens need to help replenish the government coffers that were completely drained by the Bush adminstration. If the Repubs were OK with cutting taxes, while at the same time funding two unnescessary occupations and a prescription plan without paying for that funding (i.e. less coming in and more going out)...than they and their benefactors should be OK with helping to pay back that money. Oh, I forgot, we also bailed out the banks because the greed of the executives was a greater force than strong morals. So the money they could contribute to the replenishment effort went to pay bonuses instead. After all, they have to keep the talent that caused the economy's downturn.

Ramboet:

JoannaSmith1 -- Do you know what the minimum wage is? Do you know what a 40hr work week is? Do you know what child-labor is? These are just a few things that were negotiated by unions. If you take away a worker's right to negotiate then there will be nothing stopping employers and corporations from raising the number of hours workers must work, take away the minimum wage, and take away the minimum working age. There will be no-one around to defend everyday workers. That goes for non-union workers as well.

Umm, actually, you're wrong. All those things were instituted/banned during WWII, a period of government suspended union activities, and all were mandated by the Federal Government because they discovered they produced better quality end-products faster (happy, energetic workers make fewer mistakes, who knew). Yet another lie the unions love to spew. Sadly, too many believe it.

Jo Jo, wasn't that how the Patriots organized? Didn't they organize and start to collectively bargain with the King? Did they not strike by throwing tea into Boston Harbour? Did they not solicit other states to join in the protest? It was their inheirent individual and collective right to deman in the only manner available certain rights. Was this not so?

Another form of collective bargaining is called "Groupon" ;) Now let's just see what hell breaks loose if someone takes that away ;)

Freedom of speech and as Carl mentions, peaceful assembly and petitioning the government are core to our democratic principles, and the states are taking that away from the unions (btw, I am no fan when unions bargain for more than is needed in these tough economic times, but that doesn't mean it is right to take away that "right")

That's what the people did in Wisconsin threw out the Democrats as they appeal to the government that what was done couldn't be sustained. The 1st amendment is working fine. You just don't want to accept the outcome because it's not what you want. I certainly don't like what has happened over the past few years, but I'm having to live with it, but times our changing, for the good I might add.

go to healthcare.gov and put in your families numbers and tell me where its affordable. The CBO estimates that a family of 4 making $89,000 per year will be paying $15,200 per year - is that affordable to you. It's not to my patients.

blackbelt - That's why there are subsidies. Go here: http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx and plug in your numbers to see the subsidies.

So now the Bill allows MA to change it as long as it accomplishes the good objectives of coverage without raising the deficit. And they can do this even earlier by 2014. Problem solved.

the bill has always allowed this....but repubs don't like to read!

Ah, well, you still have the problem that won't go away; 50,000,000+ who do not have healthcare insurance. They cost plenty. By the way, where is it written that healthcare is suppose to show a profit? Some organizations operate at a loss. Its balanced by those that make money. Government is not suppose to be a profit making exercise. Let's cut the military complex in half and perhaps that might be a way of offsetting the loss you mention. We don't need to be the Top 6 in the World Military Complex do we? We need to stop spending money in Afghanistan and Iraq. We need to stop subsidizing farming. We need to invest in the infrastructure of the country. We need new industry to replace old ones (check computer vs typewriter). We need to move away from oil. We have all kinds of problems. Think of all the healthy blue blooded Americans who will be available for work once we have a healthcare system that isn't a business but a social service. That means we can be patients in lieu of customers. What'd think? Should we give it a go?

You wont hear republicans talking about cutting out military welfare and farming welfare. Isnt it strange that its ok to "create" jobs that are unnecessary? I believe that our government has been keeping the country going for years...paying for unnecessary things to be made and just plain "giving" money away to keep groups in business. This is a free market? I thought they believed if you could not make it, then let them fall. But apparently they only apply that belief to jobs that do not help the party out politically. That's why I dont listen to their cheap talk about welfare. And...the people you hear complaining the loudest about welfare or government benefits are the one receiving the most from it.

Limbaugh and Beck are two reasons to stay in school and away from right wing talk radio.

You BETCHA!

Both college dropouts!

Feisty, the college drop out argument is specious at best. There are many, many successful people in this country on both sides of the aisle who never completed college.

both are crack babies

Glen Beck quotes - http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/stupidquotes/a/glenn-beck-quotes.htm

wow he is an idiot

Beck and limberger are just the mouths to furthur the propaganda from the republican dictatorship in the making. Like Hitler, they must blame someone and keep up the hate talk. And people that listen to them dont know they are becoming partners to the devastation being done to our beloved country.

Good. Insurance companies distruction? Excellent. Single Payer Government System. Awesome.

Maybe then, the US will be competitive again.

Read up on how those insurance industries control every little thing regarding "health care"--it's sickening (pun intended) Read how they get more then their share of government subsidies and perks. (and no i'm not going to give you a list--look it up...it's all out there.)

Employer based healthcare is deived from the Robber Baron days of the "company town". It is outdated and unworkable.

But it'll be the next generation's problem, because with my health, I doubt I'll live to see the day.

The last thing you want is universal coverage and the govt as the single payer. How has the Post Office, Amtrak, Social Security, Medicare, Education, Dept of Energy been run. I don't want to turn over 1/6th of the US economy to the govt till the can do things right, on time and on budget. Its never happened yet. I would definitely retire to the ski house and let the patients deal with the govt for HC. There is always going to be a market for cash and or barter consumers. My patients procedures aren't covered by insurance anyway. Get used to a Dr. shortage and trying to hire Chinese and Indian Dr's.

I would like to think that the objective of "affordable health care" is a good thing for this country to invest in, however, it will probably end badly. The whole concept of this initiative is to have it fail, whereupon the govm't will step in and run a totally socialistic health care system, which will necesiitate raising taxes double the current level, and then, every progressive will be happy.

Double taxes, and have free health care. Hmmm... yeah, that would be good for me. You?

But if state governments cannot do something because of its impact on interstate commerce, then the federal government absolutely can, as is the case with Obama's health care law. It's been upheld three times in federal court, ruled against in two, and will ultimately be upheld by the Supreme Court.

The only finding that matters is the one that stated that the law (personal mandate section in particular) was unconstitutional. The law is not like a soccer game. It isn't simply a matter of keeping score. The SCOTUS will ultimately have the final say but until then or until a stay is awarded, continuing to implement this law is to be operating outside the government's legal authority. And insurance is regulated at the state level. One buys insurance from a company that is located within the state - no interstate commerce involved at all.

Obviously Obamy missed class that day! He does not seem to understand the Constitution he swore to uphold, what does that say about his so-called Ivy League education?

@bethcat: Will you neo-con minions shut-up about people "not understanding the Constitution." The lot of you are getting your slanted lessons from jackwagons like Glenn Beck or parroting the nonsense you hear from other tea-bagger freebillies. Most of it makes as much sense as the hooey being spouted from the bozos promoting literal interpretations of the bible.

0bamacare is unconstitutional and SCOTUS will agree with the FL judge and repeal 0bamacare 5 - 4. Then in 2013 we will have a new POTUS.

You know, black_belt3... repeating the same line of BS again and again won't magically make it come true. Come to think of it, that might actually be working for Fox News. Maybe you should keep at it.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=grammar%20troll

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spelling+troll

Love it

You can't apply for an exemption. But you might qualify for one of the insurance pools and/or for one of the subsidies. See here. http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx So sorry to hear about the loss of your home.

Hang in there Uglytimes. If the Repubs have their way, they'll take back the White House and you can open up and drink the golden shower of trickle down economics with the rest of Middle America.

Just stay where you are at - SCOTUS will rule this unconstitutional and agree with the FL judge in 2012. Then you can keep what you have and keep working for the same company.

@black_belt3: "Keep what you have and keep working for the same company?" What the heck is any of that supposed to mean? Are you saying that if the health care legislation is passed, someone is going to take Uglytimes' job away?

Especially with Mr. "Conflict of Interest" Clearance Thomas on the bench. I love the fact he stated he was confused about how to fill out the tax document disclosing his wife's income...after he had done it for the prior three years. It's amazing what these guys can get away with and not be held accountable.

At least he stated he didn't understand instead of JUST NOT PAYING like Geitner and Rangel!

Kagan helped put this atrocious bill together - she needs to recuse herself from hearing the case. Won't matter there are 5 votes against it already.

Right on Pete!

It's called brain washing and the neo-cons and their propaganda arm of Fox News are better at it than anyone since the Nazi's did it in 1930's Germany.

The republicans have studied the leadership of Hitler....how one man was able to lead the whole country and eventually the while world to war...not to mention blaming the Jews. These tactics should be obvious to an intelligent person. Once they take control of ALL news...you wont even be able to voice a differing opinion. Taking down unions would be one giant leap to shutting down the rights of working people. They have essentially taken away our right to vote by allowing companies to buy votes. This was a massive feather in the Nazis hats! At first, it was about chipping away at rights...now they are hammering full force. People will one day have to rise up against them.

Common Sense: A "Ballet Vote"? Is this somehow related to an Oscar© vote for "The Black Swan"!! Also, there's no Constitutional provision for National Referendums, that's why there has NEVER been one. An "X" for you, now get back to the end of the line.

Awman! Not another interpretive lesson on the Constitution. Is Professor Beck offering online classes yet? Clearly common sense has no reasonable discourse.

Whoops...Ballot with a note that vote is thus redundant...

I really wish we had National Referendums. Every major bill that passes should actually be supported by a majority of the population and be at least somewhat bipartisan.

I'm not sure why everyone that knows the bill is unconstitutional is labeled a far right nut and yes implying that I'm a Beck fan is an insult. I've pasted the applicable section of the constitution, so if you disagree with my interpretation please offer an actual rebutal instead of random insults. That would be Resonable Discourse.

@Common Sense, I wish that too, it's called a Republic and was what America actually started out as. Then somewhere along the lines we bastardized it into a Democracy.

I'm sorry, I typically don't bother arguing interpretation with self-professed constitutional scholars, which you must obviously be since you "know" the bill is unconstitutional. I'd have better luck arguing with a brick wall.

That said, I do disagree with your interpretation, because that is exactly what it is. The fact that you refer to it as an interpretation means that you cannot "know" the bill is unconstitutional. You can only think that it is, until final adjudication is made at the highest level, that being the Supreme Court. And, even then you are free to disagree, you just have to eat crow and follow the law (or pay a fine or go to jail or whatever).

I'd bring up my own belief, which is that the health care legislation passes muster under constitutional law based on the Commerce Clause, which gives congress the power to regulate interstate commerce. I read the Commerce Clause and the supporting Necessary and Proper Clause of the constitution and interpret them both as making the health care legislation completely constitutional. That is my interpretation. I am not arrogant enough to say I "know", though I will say Na Na Na Boo Boo Stick Your Head in Doo Doo if I am proven right by the Supreme Court.

The constitution in some respects is like the Bible. But, fortunately for us, we have a court system that doesn't allow whackjobs to make literal interpretations of words written by men who couldn't have possibly anticipated what life would be like hundreds of years later. Our constitution is a framework. How it's upheld in court is based just as much on a hundred plus years of case law as it is in the actual words.

Jay,

You didn't really argue...you attempted to insult and then wrote out childish noises...I don't typically debate the constitution with people that write things like "Na Na Na Boo Boo Stick Your Head in Doo Doo", but...the Commerce Clause is Article 1/Section 8/Clause 3 of the constitution. I've pasted it below with the context of Section 8 for clarification.

SECTION 8.

1 The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect

Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide

for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;

but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout

the United States;

2 To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

3 To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the

several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

4 To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform

Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

5 To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin,

and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Ignoring the fact that Section 8 sets forth the means for the National Government to collect revenue, how could one think that forcing people to buy a product is regulating commerce "among the several states"? The clause does apply to some elements of healthcare though, since drugs are manufactured within a state and distributed and sold in all of the states. So yes....the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is constitutionally valid.

As for the Supreme Court, the bill will be struck down 5-4. This will create a question that we typically ignore: how did 4 of the judges come to the conclusion that the Federal Government can force as opposed to regulate commerce? Well Jay...judges often vote for what they want...not what the constitution says.

You may be right. I think they should have reversed the terminology. Instead of penalizing YOU for NOT having Health Insurance, they should reward US for HAVING health insurance. Same thing, different wording, and WAY different legal standing.

They could reward as opposed to punish or they could have gone the same route as the effective drinking age mandate. The drinking age was set by every State at 21, because the Federal Government threatened to pull Federal Highway $$$ from States that didn't go along with the Federal Governments will. I honestly don't know how that stood up in court since it is also clearly unconstitutional, but it is now a legally valid loophole.

"FACT - Health Insurance is not a right! In fact, if it were a right, then we would not be able to treat illegal aliens."

Actually, that's an opinion. And the part about illegal immigrants doesn't even make sense.

"FACT - American citizens are afforded the rights provided by the constitution and the declaration of independence. FACT = Those rights are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness!"

Pretty hard to have the right to life when you can't get access to healthcare that would allow you to continue to live and pursue happiness.

Exactly. Why should the government be able to tell me what is acceptable? Why should my family purchase a policy that covers maternity care when we have no need for that coverage - between the two of us one has had a hystectomy and the other a vasectomy? Why should people be required to purchase a plan with a low deductible or low co-pays when they are comfortable paying out of pocket for most care. A lot of people use insurance for catastrophic events not routine care. There is no one size fits all approach - to believe that there is is to believe a lie.

Post office is another shinning example of government success!

Elderly people like social security and medicare. And social security has a surplus. Its the general budget that has the deficit. Unfunded wars has a lot to do with THAT.