Awakening the Sleeping Giant:

Some may not remember the name of Admiral Yamamoto. He was the Japanese fleet commander of the surprise attack on Pear Harbor on December 7, 1941. Upon hearing that the attack was successful and given some time to ponder what had just happened, Admiral Yamamoto was reported to have said, “I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant”. And indeed the Japanese had awakened the United States as we went on to later defeat the Japanese.

The Tea Party, financed by the Koch brothers and lead by Governor Walker, converged on Madison, Wisconsin and attacked public union workers’ rights to collective bargaining. This attack has already spread to other states and escalated to include all union workers. Reviewing the voting records of representatives and senators, it can be documented that the GOP/TP has supported large business interests including the financial and oil industries at the expense of hard-working American laborers.

These attacks on middle-class Americans have had some initial success, but have not gone unnoticed. Republican attacks on American workers will lead to demonstrations in mid-western states like Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio. The energy of the Tea Party will be dwarfed by what Newt Gingrich once called the “silent majority”. This time around the silent majority will be democrats, independents, women, gay groups, minorities, public employees, small business owners, union and non-union workers.

I don’t have to shout, “Wake up Democrats, elections have consequences.” In a painful way Democrats have now learned that lesson. The Tea Party and Governor Walker have already awakened the sleeping giant. Expect a huge turnout at the November 2012 elections. Democrats will be out in force.

US Navy and Ron Indiana

It's so great we are keeping this discourse open about the underhanded way the right wing attempts to ursurp collective barging

Defend the American Dream!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFtTdi5U0n0&feature=player_embedded

Over at the Hate Channel aka FOX NATION they just can’t figure out which hate fest should dominate today.

a) tout union buster Gov Scott Walker as President Reagan reincarnate

b) lambast President Obama’s union bosses and President Obama

c) lie about who really pays for the pension and benefits for public employees in Wisconsin.

FYI:The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions

Governor Walker has gotten away with this false narrative because journalists have failed to look closely at how employee pension plans work and have simply accepted the Governor’s word for it.

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

d) Instill fear in it’s views about President Obama being weak and his handling of the Middle East; particularly Libya.

Thank you Rachel Maddow for elaborating on how cunning and deliberate our President is. Truly there is a method to his folly which causes heads to explode in the FEAR ECHO Chamber of FOX NOISE. He got our citizens out safely; then he dropped the bomb.

Why is it the only solution former UN ambassor Micheal Bolt-on and John MCain has is bomb Iran?

How ‘bout Secretaty of Defense Robert Gates’ quote…?

“In my opinion, any future defense secretary who advises the president to again send a big American land army into Asia or into the Middle East or Africa should ‘have his head examined,’ as General MacArthur so delicately put it”.

Truly,this is so silly and a bit hilarious;except for the FACT that it’s awkward to laugh at. It just keeps on getting crazier over at the Fear Channel aka FOX NEWS.

Running Away

Isn’t it ironic Speaker of the House John Boehner on Sunday night will stress that a shutdown will not be necessary? I’d say he he is running away from his moral and political responsibility to placate the Tea Baggers.

One of the Democrats, Sen. Lena Taylor tweeted her support to the protesters who remained: "Thank you for exercising your 1st amend right - I'm glad my actions give you opportunity to stand/sit/express yourself!"

http://townhall.com/news/us/2011/02/27/police_allow_protesters_to_remain_at_wis_capitol

Sen. Lena Taylor, a run away in the spirt of Harriet Tubman is doing a fanaticsic job. I’ll bet that deliveres a cold blow up in the righties faces. Righties don’t read the news or polls that has anything to do with the truth. Oh the . controversy and the spin.

From the Senators website

As I have talked with my Republican and Democratic colleagues, I have heard of threats made against legislators and staff, some even extending to the staff’s family’s and pets. We cannot engage in productive democracy while we threaten each other’s safety. I denounce these threats and they must be stopped. Legislators and staff, even those that we disagree with, should never be the target of violence or intimidation.”

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/senate/sen04/news/Press/2011/pr2011-012.asp

Making collective bargaining illegal in New Jersey

It is a back door to making collective bargaining illegal; Really.

http://www.bluejersey.com/diary/17909/making-collective-bargaining-illegal-in-new-jersey

And what about Palin?

Sarah WHO?

Great Post Navy - let's not forget that yesterday on MTP Governor walker ADMITTED to rejecting the suggestion of sending 'trouble makers' into the crowds...

As Lawrence O' Donnell so smoothly pointed out: That means the idea was actually discussed! *shakes head*

Stand UNITED Gang of 12 and whatever you do - DON'T BLINK!

'Deficits' don't matter - Dick Cheney

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Dick_Cheney_Budget_+_Economy.htm

Where are the J O B S - Weeper Boehner?

Ron:

Great post. I saw the movie Midway last week and it sure does seem appropriate. We have indeed stirred a Sleeping Giant. The people have taken their voices to the street and this makes it a National Problem now, not just Wisconsin anymore.

Bev:

How true. President Obama waited until the American people could be evacuated from Libya and then and only then he drops the hammer. He gets the UN to support him in sanctions 100% - not one NO vote.

He played his cards correct just like he did in Egypt and paid no attention to the knee jerk party that think Military actions in the only way to accomplish anything.

Great Post yourself Navy:

I think I read that 50 cities have now had rallies in support of the Wisconsin protesters. Koch brothers and Walker have already over-played their hand.

Indeed, the actions of the Wisconsin protesters should be both an example and an inspiration to everyone who would resist the Conservative war on the middle class. At this point Governor Scott (Imperial) Walker doesn't even have the support of his own state government. In spite of an onslaught of Conservative "news" coverage describing the protesteres as "rioters" the Capital Chief of Police states;

"People here have acted lawfully and responsibly," Tubbs said. "There's no reason to consider arrests." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41811389/ns/us_news-life/

And with those words threats from Conservatives to clear the capital building became meaningless.

OK Guys you win. There is nothing wrong with the wage and benefits structure for public employees. In fact every dime that the Government spends is needed.(Seems to be what Harry Reid is saying).

So why don't you campaign on that? Why don't you be honest and campaign on the true cost of the government instead borrowing 40 cents in every dollar. Tell the people where and how you are going to raise the revenue instead borrowing and passing the cost on to the next generation.

The increase in revenues that the top 2% was around 700B over 10 years. We have a projected deficit of over 1T for the next 10 years, so you only have to find another 930B in revenues per year. (and realize I'm rounding down).

Tell me what federal taxes do I have to pay to keep everything the way it is and I'll see if that's the party I want to vote for. Now tell me what taxes I have to pay in NJ so that the system of public pensions as currently structured can be maintained.

Give me choice on whether to cut spending or increase taxes. Just tell me what the bill will be.

Morning Feisty

Better open the bar at the Dew Drop Inn Stevie-o is gonna need a shot when he hears this.

Runaway Senator Lena Taylor of Wisconsin Was A Guest on Upfront with Jesse Jackson 2.26.11 - Special
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR7K2-CL0_w

Like a true Harriet Tubman she let people know she ran away to the border and Prez Lcoln jumped out the window to keep the fight (quorum) on

She also said Wi has buyers remorse check the vid when you get time it is informative.
I loved the way Lawrence O'Donnel kicked @aa yesterday on MTP.

typo correction: Like a true Harriet Tubman she let people know she ran away to the border and President Lincoln jumped out the window to keep the fight (quorum) on.

We certainly have two classes in the country. The "Haves" with the unions, and their re-distribution agents in the government, the Democrats. And the "Have nots", the taxpayers, who are forced to fund these unions, these very unions comprised mostly of teachers, who have produced some of the worst public schools in the world. You can't have it both ways Liberals/Democrats/Union-Members (all one of the same), you can't keep saying the schools need to improve and you need more money, and not blame the current system for most of the problems.

Wisconsin, and many other states, are drowning in red ink, mostly because of the unions. So if that's the case Liberals, rather than reduce the costs to these unions, why don't you suggest closing the budget gap with massive tax increases? Any clue as to how that would go over with the taxpayers.

So you can have your '60s moments with your little protests and noise making in a capital, no one really is interested. At some point you have to promote a real solution, but to do that you'll have to get the union representitives, the Democrats, back from their little vacations in Illinois.

US Navy, Disabled Retired Veteran and Victim of Cyber Bullies,

The unions are the privileged class. They hold the political power.

Being incumbent gives candidates a boost of 47%.

Having union support with the massive amount of money and operational support of phone banks, door-to-door retail campaigning, poll watching etc gives candidates a boost of 56%.

Combined - 76%. That fair?

Here is the real Oligarchy you are always crying about.

Right-to-work states have real personal income grow at twice the rate of non states. Disposable income is 7% higher. Growth in real manufacturing grows three times as fast.

Unions are a drain on society.

There is no "God given right to collective bargaining." God only gives the right to the privileged few who belong to unions?

This has nothing to do with benefits, blah, blah. It is all about political power.

Obama came right out and backed the unions. He chose unions over the people. Funny, he sure hasn't said much since Walker told to focus on his own problems ....... or was it since Obama looked at the polls and realized what was really happening?

Yea Ron, the giant is awake.

Better bus in every union operative you can.

The reason that independents took a chance on Republicans again after rejecting them in 2006 and 2008 was that the recovery was not going fast enough. In otherwords they were asking WHERE ARE THE FREAKING JOBS????? When the economy tanks, the tendency is to blame the party in power, rightfully or wrongfully. The voters expected that the Republicans would actually give a damn about them once in power and work towards job creation---never mind that Republicans actually blocked bills that would facilitate that, and forced the stimulus spending to consist of massive tax breaks as well as true stimulus spending. Of course, the voters got burned by them, much like they got burned by Republicans in 95-96, and by Democrats in 2009 (a massive health care bill, while needed, was not the top priority for the country in 2009). Unless Republicans get their heads out of the corporations' rear ends and actively work to promote job growth, they'll find that the Americans will turn on them, much like they turned on Newt Gingrich in 1996.

Bev:

They just cannot face the facts that what these guys (GOP/TP) are doing is not sitting well with Americans, even many republicans are not in favor of this Union Busting scheme.

Last week somebody compared what is going on now with what Hitler did in Germany to the unions there. He used them to get into power and then disbanded them because he knew they could undo what they did if they so had the inklling. I do not think that analogy is too far away from facts today.

This has never been about the deficit as proved by many GOP/TP governors who passed huge tax cuts to corporations etc., and then say the deficit problem was solely the fault of the unions. NOT. They lied period. It has been and always will be about power and the crushing of he unions.

If we never had a union movement many of us today would not have the standard of living that we do. It would be far less, and what little there is left, the GOP/TP wants to take away.

Well said, US Navy. The people have found their voices. Remember when President Obama told Wall Street that he was the only thing standing between them and the pitchforks and torches. It is time to start focusing the blame back on those who caused the crisis--Wall Street speculators. The same ones who are now busy driving up the price of oil. Will public sector workers be blamed for rising gasoline prices, too?

Op Ed Hypocrit. In the Sunday paper editorial page, L. Brent Bozell had an op ed. Mr. Bozell was decrying the fact that the media had declared the tea party as "extreme" with their signs showing President Obama as a witch doctor, Hitler, the Joker and other signs. Mr. Bozell proceeded to wonder why the media did not object to the Wisconsin protester signs comparing Walker to a dictator (he was not shown as a witch doctor or the Joker).

The Headline for Bozell's viewpoint column was "Media shows double-standard in Madison". OK, fine but here is Bozell's first sentence: "The battle in Madison, Wis., between new Gov. Scott Walker and the public-sector union hacks offers an amazing study in journalistic double standards." Now, who is showing bias?

Is it me? Or are the righties particularly rabid this morning?

Wonder why that is - when according to them they speak for the 'people'!

Epic - landslide - shellacking - the peoples work etc... Why then all the teeth gnashing?

Hmmmm....

Wisconsin, and many other states, are drowning in red ink, mostly because of the unions. So if that's the case Liberals, rather than reduce the costs to these unions, why don't you suggest closing the budget gap with massive tax increases? Any clue as to how that would go over with the taxpayers.

Actually, JAS1, the reason why states are drowing in red ink, as you have put it, is because they have done nothing to bolster the REVENUES needed to kep the state alive financially. The MAIN reason can be seen in the tax breaks given to major Corporations at the expense of the States. To make up for that loss of revenue, the property taxes of many have increased (and I can say that as a fact in Ohio). Since there is much unemployment in many states (again, I can definitively speak for Ohio), the ability of the populace to pay those increased taxes has diminished considerably.

You can put out there that the Unions are the cause of the problem all you want. The fact of the matter is that many states are dealing with shortfalls because of their own mismanagement and are scrambling to cut where they can. The GOP/TP is using the unions as a 'wedge issue' so that people are DISTRACTED from the REAL issues that plague the states.

JoAnnaSmith1

Navy Disabled, really bad post. Completely ignoring reality. Completely void of the truth.

Navy Disabled: What has started out as an exercise in "Civil Disobedience" has grown into a full blown "National Discourse" in Wisconsin.

Yeah, I can see why the taxpayers would be a little against that system. And now it's on a national stage, so people can observe how the Democrats (who are a wholly owned subsidiary of the unions) behave. The cowards run away. Elections don't matter to the Democrats. What matters to them is that they get their way.

Hah, a little wily fuming does help doesn't it? Ignore JoAnnaSmith1 it's just another deceptive rantings alert people!

@ no joe, no bo, nj

Well, Ron, you must be reading an analysis of the midterms that no one else has seen- the big difference most reputable analysts have found in this past mid term, versus others, is the number of independents who turned out.

So, your democrats turned out; your republicans turned out; the huge difference in the outcome was the number of independents who turned out- and, true to their nature, they switched sides.

I keep hearing about "buyer's remorse' on this site- it is wishful thinking on the part of the Obama worshippers

Dr No No

Actually, it was the number of people on the left who didn't vote. An astute economist even a faux one knows the meaning of that is commonly understood.

.

I hate to mention this, because I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but this morning I was reading our local paper regarding the puzzling efforts of our Tea Party governor to rep[eal a ban on BPA from children's articles; and I mean puzzling because this ban was based unanimously in the legislature last year, when the name Koch Brothers popped into the article. Yes, the Koch Brothers are funding studies to discredit the science behind getting cancer causing chemicals out of our plastics. These are the studies the Tea Partiers are pointing to in an effort to repeal the ban on BPA.

The woman who heads the governor's 'regulatory reform' effort is a registered lobbyist for the Toy Industry and her firm represents chemical companies.

It's shocking to me that people voted for The Tea Party candidates thinking they were patriotic revolutionaries, and, instead they turned out be, like Walker and our Governor LePage, people who would sell our children's health and education to chemical and oil company interests.

Actually, JAS1, the reason why states are drowing in red ink, as you have put it, is because they have done nothing to bolster the REVENUES needed to kep the state alive financially

Still waiting for the Liberals/Unions/Democrats (all one and the same) to call for higher taxes to close the budget gaps in all the states. Illinois, you stepped up! Congratulations! Illinois raised its income taxes 67% on individuals and 50% on businesses, and both will preserve your union members continued job security, benefits, along with your gold-plated pension plans, and it will also insure that those unions dues will go to the Democrats re-election campaigns. Got to keep that little quid pro quo going.

And I'm sure the citizens of Illinois are enjoying the fruits of their newly, balanced budget. What?! They're still short? By billions? How can that be? Perhaps Illinois didn't raise their taxes enough? And California, New York, and Michigan, you're next up! Lets get those taxes up there where they belong!

The Democrats/Liberals/Unions (one in the same) - Taxing our way to prosperity!

Feisty and Beverly: Good morning! Did you find FOK News Channel. Keith is BACK! That is his blog, and let me tell you he has plenty to say about Wisconsin!

Bev:

1.21 - They just refuse to see what is happening around them. If you point it out to them they call you a liar but offer not one single piece of proof. Typical of the same people over and over. They offer no new ideas and the old ones they are proposing suck and caused the problems to begin with.

We still have not seen one plan or idea from the right on how they are going to create jobs or help keep an improving economy continue to roll forward. Instead they are trying to limit Civil Rights, reward those that paid for their election campaigns by giving them huge tax cuts and special treatment like less regulations, etc., etc.

Well the people are starting to see that they were sold a bill of goods and come 2012 when the people who did vote in 2010 come out, I think the story is going to have a different ending and the GOP/TP is not going to like it, one bit. Only time will tell, but there appears to be a movement against them (GOP/TP) in the making.

@Pietro

"Actually, JAS1, the reason why states are drowing in red ink, as you have put it, is because they have done nothing to bolster the REVENUES needed to kep the state alive financially. The MAIN reason can be seen in the tax breaks given to major Corporations at the expense of the States. To make up for that loss of revenue, the property taxes of many have increased (and I can say that as a fact in Ohio). Since there is much unemployment in many states (again, I can definitively speak for Ohio), the ability of the populace to pay those increased taxes has diminished considerably.

You can put out there that the Unions are the cause of the problem all you want. The fact of the matter is that many states are dealing with shortfalls because of their own mismanagement and are scrambling to cut where they can. The GOP/TP is using the unions as a 'wedge issue' so that people are DISTRACTED from the REAL issues that plague the states."

So Pietro on one hand you say the states have done nothing to boost revenue but on the other admit that the populace cannot afford any increase. So what is the solution? If you can't raise taxes then you must cut spending.

On your other point I do not blame the unions. I agree that it has been the mismanagement of previous administrations that agreed to these wages and benefits. However, you can hardly blame the current administrations for having to take drastic steps to rectify the financial situation.

BTW I see that no one has come forward with suggestions on how to raise 1T in revenue per year for 10 years.

bob-1805084

US Navy, Disabled Retired Veteran and Victim of Cyber Bullies,

Unions are a drain on society.

There is no "God given right to collective bargaining." God only gives the right to the privileged few who belong to unions?

FLASHBACK, Booby Trap

Ronald Reagan Called Union Membership ‘One Of The Most Elemental Human Rights’

REAGAN: The Polish government has trampled underfoot to the UN Charter and Helsinki accords. It has even broken the Gdańsk Agreement of 1980 by which the Polish government recognized the basic right of free trade unions and to strike.

Watch it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/25/flashback-reagan-union-right/

Obama came right out and backed the unions. He chose unions over the people. Funny, he sure hasn't said much since Walker told to focus on his own problems ....... or was it since Obama looked at the polls and realized what was really happening?

Yea Ron, the giant is awake.

Booby trap,

have you noticed the state of affairs her and in the Middle East? The President is very wise and plays chess in 3-D. Right now he focusing on jobs; something the right is doing. When President Obama decides the game is most opportune you will hear him; OKAY

JoAnnaSmith1

We certainly have two classes in the country. The "Haves" with the unions, and their re-distribution agents in the government, the Democrats. And the "Have nots", the taxpayers, who are forced to fund these unions

Joanna the suprime Court took away your arguement when they rules that People Like the Koch brothers to fund campaigns with unlimited amounts of cash. tax payers DO NOT find ANY unions.

these very unions comprised mostly of teachers, who have produced some of the worst public schools in the world. You can't have it both ways Liberals/Democrats/Union-Members (all one of the same), you can't keep saying the schools need to improve and you need more money, and not blame the current system for most of the problems.

This comment only can come from some one who does NOT have kids that either went to public school or are attending public school right now. parents know why so many schools in every state in this country are failing.
1. Parents, parents are relying on schools to teach, baby sit and deal with personal problems kids take to school with them, kids are showing up to school with Guns, Drugs, kids that are medicaded rely on teachers to makes sure meds are taken and most of all Parent are NOT preparing kids for school at the early age we were use to for years. this is for me the main reason why our schools are Failing.
2. School administrators. school administrators are dictating what our kids are learning how they are learning and what path they are on, some keep kids on a path to college and some give up and put kids on a path to Walmart. Again parents are not demanding the college path for there kids and are not aware that what there kids are taking in HS, in most cases all they see are grades, and if a kids is getting a good grade in a BUll SH&t class parents don't know.
3. Teachers, Teachers for the most part want to make a difference, but now are giving up. and working toward there 25 years and then they get out. school boards are not recruting the best, and can't because the pay for a college grad who teaches is alot lower than a college Grad who is in engineering or accounting.

But Joanna will call me a leftist Liberal, a bleeding heart leftwing pinko, but I have lived through the Nightmare of Public school, good one and bad ones. Cathloic school, as well. that was the wildest.

i and my x-wife demanded the best classes and when we saw a bad teacher we made noise to get our kids out of that teachers class, too many times parents trust what they are told instead of researching what is best.

So Joanna rant all you want but how many of your kids did you put through schopol and what schools did they go to.

Bev,

FDR said that public unions were unthinkable and intolerable.

Reagan seemed to agree. He sure didn't tolerate the air traffic controllers strike - fired 'em.

Thinkprogress somehow misses those points. Pretty sad reference, huh?

Amy B. Portland, ME

I hate to mention this, because I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist, but this morning I was reading our local paper regarding the puzzling efforts of our Tea Party governor to rep[eal a ban on BPA from children's articles; and I mean puzzling because this ban was based unanimously in the legislature last year, when the name Koch Brothers popped into the article

No Amy; you're not subscribing to a conspiracy theory.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has consistently sided with polluters and the fossil fuel industry. And just who are the biggest polluters? The filthy Koch Brothers. I mean it literally and factually.

According to federal lobbying reports, Koch Industries’ top issues include energy, environmental, tax and homeland security policies. The Open Society Policy Center has mainly lobbied on issues relating to foreign relations, civil rights, and law enforcement policy. The graph below outlines these organizations lobbying history since 1998 (click on graph for full size):

The Koch brothers’ company, Koch Industries, has been a big player in both campaign donations and lobbying. Koch Industries currently leads the oil and gas industry as the top contributor to federal candidates and parties, and is the fifth highest lobbying spender in the industry this year.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/09/opensecrets-battle---koch-brothers.html

VERDICT: When it comes to to the combination of institutional lobbying, 527 group donations and PAC expenditures, Koch Industries far out-spends Soros’ hedge fund and think tank, $57.4 million to $12.8 million. Most of this money is attributable to lobbying expenditures.

In other words the Koch brothers are anti- government, self, anti-climate change and don’t mine killing people and the planet.

@Booby trap, just in case you didn't understand me I repeat...

Have you noticed the state of affairs her and in the Middle East? The President is very wise and plays chess in 3-D. Right now he is focusing on jobs; something the right is "NOT" doing. When President Obama decides the game is most opportune you will hear him; OKAY?

Navy Disabled: They did what they had to do when faced by a GOP/TP Governor that did not want fair negotiations or any compromises. These Senators are far from being cowards, they put their careers at risk to do what they felt is right, to fight for the Middle Class.

Democrats, always fighting. But how can they fight, if they run away?

Democrats, fighting for the Middle Class, by running away to neighboring states. Cowards.

Jeff,

So you are basically admitting that the schools are in shambles. Who is in charge? All the extra money to the schools and unions and it is worse than ever.

You talk about bad teachers. How do get rid of bad teachers with union protections?

Keep working, you're close to figuring it out.

do't blame this 3 trillion deficit on Obama IT was on its way long before Obama he could have ask for 4 trillion dollars if he had not cut his budget by 1.7 trillion him self. if he had continued on the same path as the man before him . but he didn't he cut his budget by 1.7 trillion himself. look it up . and dam FOX.

For all the 'Union Busting' fans.......Texas is a 'right to work' state....translation NO public unions and guess what.....Texas is 26 to 30 Billion in the hole!

Can't blame collective bargaining.......so what happened?

The earlier reference to the suppression of unions in Nazi Germany was accurate, but unfortunate. The NSDAP regime pioneered many techniques for controlling mass opinion and behavior, but because of the foul stench of that regime, any time a reference is made to that - such as Goebbels' "big lie" technique - almost the first reaction is "How DARE they compare us to the Nazis!"

Suppression of trade unions, social organizations and other groups is actually a common technique used in despotic regimes - it wasn't even an original idea in 1930's Germany. Soon after the revolution in the USSR was firmly in place, the unions were the first to fall under state domination, and eventual absorption entirely. The same story can be found in numerous other regimes - Franco essentially eliminated unions after the Spanish Revolution.

It was an "illegal" union the ultimately started the crumbling of not only Communist rule in Poland, but the very dissolution of the USSR. Lech Walesa's Solidarity union, originating among the dockyard workers of Gdansk, started that immense boulder moving.

The assault on american organized labor is indeed an attack on our nation. Our grandparents and parents struggled to win labor rights, some shed their blood. The right-wing anti-labor movement in the U.S. is motivated by ignorance, malicious propaganda, and uninformed ideology. Labor unions aren't the problem - they re the solution.

SOLIDARITY NOW AND FOREVER!

Morning NDD!

FOK News - you GOTTA love it! I'll check it out!

Doesn't his new show start sometime in April?

bob: Jeff, So you are basically admitting that the schools are in shambles.

You can't on one hand, as the Liberals keep saying, say the public schools need more and more funding, our schools are falling further behind other countries, and we must continue to "invest" in our schools, and turn around and in the same breath say "Oh, but the teachers are wonderful, the unions are wonderful, the system is wonderful".

A little inconsistent, no?

Lots of shouting going on, which normally gets any comment by moderates or on the Right 'collapsed'. Let's see what happens when the shouting is from the Left.

I do have a question, though;

Why should it be mandatory for people working for certain state or local governments to have to join a union, where union dues are funded by the taxpayer, but virtually all of the part that goes towards political contributions goes to one political party - the Democrats.

Thirty years ago in Russia, you had to join the Communist Party to get a decent job in government, or in education. Is that what we want in America?

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Bev:

They just cannot face the facts ...

That's because facts get in the way of the Koch brothers agenda; Navy.

bob-1805084

Bev,

FDR said that public unions were unthinkable and intolerable.

Reagan seemed to agree. He sure didn't tolerate the air traffic controllers strike - fired 'em.

Thinkprogress somehow misses those points. Pretty sad reference, huh?

Yes, Booby trap it is sad; especially when you consider that pitiful man, Reagan Alzheimer's was so bad during his presidency he forgot he fired the union. It on tape Bob; google it if you don't believe think progress.

bob-1805084

Jeff,

So you are basically admitting that the schools are in shambles. Who is in charge? All the extra money to the schools and unions and it is worse than ever.

You talk about bad teachers. How do get rid of bad teachers with union protections?

Keep working, you're close to figuring it out.

Bob i don't have to figure it out, 3 of my kids are out of college and i still there. my days of dealing with Public school teachers is over. than god!!!! how about you. even more important, How about Joanna.

The democratic State Senators did the only thing they could do with the toxic environment that they faced. They put their careers on the line for their beliefs. I do not see any GOP/TP people doing the same. Instead they all lock step together off the cliff.

Also in doing what they did, they did make this a National Issue. Why is it that all of a sudden some of the most staunchest supporters of Union Busting have suddenly gone silent? Why is the RGA asking Congress to stop the crap and do something productive and do not pass anything that will hurt an already fragile economy?

So Pietro on one hand you say the states have done nothing to boost revenue but on the other admit that the populace cannot afford any increase. So what is the solution? If you can't raise taxes then you must cut spending.

Alan, NJ - we have had this conversation and will contnue to have this conversation until you realise that tax cuts and tax concessions are the REAL cause of the problems we are having. There is a certain level of tax revenues - from both corporate and individual taxpayers - that a state needs to be able to function. What has been sold to the electorate over the years is that taxes are BAD. The short answer - no they are NOT. EXCESSIVE taxes are bad. There is a BIG difference there.

The other problem is that Revenues in these states have decreased while the COSTS - read as EXPENSES - have increased. Much of these increases come from energy (that's another argument I'll have with you at another time), and much of the decrease of revenue comes from unemployment.

What the states SHOULD have been doing is bolstering their revenues. I have argued that taxes are not the ONLY revenue a state can make; a lot of revenue can come from tourism (as one example). You can forget that tourism revenue stream if your state is rife with unemployment and crime. An INVESTMENT hasto be made so that tourism could be used as a revenue source, and we have seen that many states have forgone those investments.

I made mention that in Ohio, tourism is down as well as revenues. The way the State - and some municipalities are making up the difference - is raising property taxes. With no real industry contributing to Ohio's economy, that seems to be the ONLY revenue stream that the state and municipalities can count on to makeup their budget.

When the opportunity came for the Governor to INVEST money in high-speed rail, he declined. That decliniation cost the State untold MILLIONS as well as at least 5,000 jobs, which some of the counties desperately need. Is that a WISE choice for a state that is struggling economically? Hard to tell right now, but we will definitely see. As a side note, those people living in the struggling counties are paying over $3.60/gallon for gas right now, and the price continues to rise. Note that they hav NO CHOICE but to pay those high rates because you HAVE to drive to get anywhere in Ohio.

On your other point I do not blame the unions. I agree that it has been the mismanagement of previous administrations that agreed to these wages and benefits. However, you can hardly blame the current administrations for having to take drastic steps to rectify the financial situation.

BTW I see that no one has come forward with suggestions on how to raise 1T in revenue per year for 10 years.

Alan, you are correct - I cannot blame the current administrations for wanting to curtail as much cost as they can. What I DO see, especially in WI, is a Governor that is STUPID. From what I have read about collective bargaining, BOTH SIDES are mandated to negotiate in good faith. When you have a Governor that says 'I will not negotiate', he already is breaking one of the tenets of collective bargaining. There is no judge in America that will uphold any changes to the collective bargaining agreement when they have the Governor on record stating that 'he will not negoatiate'.

As far as the other governors that have to deal with unions - there is ALWAYS a time when the agreement(s) can be re-negotiated, andmy research find that tme to be before a budget period. Do you mean to tell me that these Governors have NO OTHER CHOICE but to continue the union agreements as they are? That's a canard that is being sold to the electorate that is not true.

To directly aswer your last point, Alan, Governors have balance the needs of their state(s) with the revenues needed to sustain that state. I do understand that some states will sell their roads, utilities, and some government services to a private entity to raise the money they need. Water plants and some electric utilites are being run by a private enterprise in many states. If this is a way to raise revenues without detriment to the state, then that's fine with me.

However -

The state should - nay, MUST - honour the contracts that they have entered in. They have the right to renegotiate those contracts, so if a deal a state has been struck that is a bad deal for that state, why NOT renegotiate?

You hav to have IDEAS and options on the table when you negotiate. Let's see of the current crop of GOP Governors have what it takes to solve the problem. I think that most of the electorate really doesn't care WHO solves the problem - Democrat or Republican - as long as the problem get solved.

have you noticed the state of affairs her and in the Middle East? The President is very wise and plays chess in 3-D.

Playing chess in 3-D?

Obama is more like a 10 year old playing spin-the-bottle in a tent in the backyard, hoping the bottle dosen't stop on his ugly cousin.

Absolutely clueless.

Right now he focusing on jobs; something the right is doing. When President Obama decides the game is most opportune you will hear him; OKAY

See the previous response above.

I am just Wondering Why Obama hasnt Put his Boots on and not out in Wisconisn Protesting with the Unions as he Promised he would do. in 2007 then Candidate Obama Promised that he would be out there protesting with them if there were Any Attacks on Collective Bargining? so what we see is another Broken Promise by Obama............. Could it Be because Federal Unions Employees dont have the Right of Collective Bargining.

In 1988 it was Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Congress that Expemted Federal Employees from the Right of Collective Bargining. Perhaps this is the Reason Obama is not out there And why the Silence from Obama He Ran his mouth one time and now he now has No comment. well go Figure. Perhaps his own Polls show that the Majority of American People dont support the Policies of Not on this President but also the Unions.............

To my Conservative Friends.. Keep up the Good work. all the Liberals on this page wish to do is Divert and Mislead. Not to to mention head off to the Dew Drop Inn and Get Sloppy Drunk all the While Railing against The Speaker of the House John Boehner for Having a drink or two..

They will now come on here and Tell us all that Oh. The DEW DROP INN is nothing but a Virtual Drinking Establishment A place where they can go and have some Virtual Fun. Yes My Conservative Friends they Live in a Imaginary World Created in their Own Minds,. If they were Children we would be saying how Creative they Are. But since they are Adults (i guess this is an assumption on my part) they probably should be Seeking Professional help... . Its time to Start living in the Real World Libbies. Start dealing with Real problems instead of Hiding in an Imaginary Drinking Establishment

chilled,

Texas is a private-sector right -to-work state.

You have never heard of the TEA!

Worse than Wisconsin. The unions have the state not only deduct the teacher dues, but contributions to the PAC!

Texas' problem is trying to educate all the kids moving to Texas from non right-to-work states where there are no jobs.

Hi Feisty,
GREAT!
From Will Farrell's Funny or Die Production Co

The state should - nay, MUST - honour the contracts that they have entered in. They have the right to renegotiate those contracts, so if a deal a state has been struck that is a bad deal for that state, why NOT renegotiate?

And that is exactly what Governors Walker, Daniels, Kasich, Cuomo, Brown and others are doing. The sweetheart deals the Democrats and the Unions (one of the same) made for themselves, and the expenses loaded, on to the taxpayers have bankrupt each of the states these Governors represent.

You hav to have IDEAS and options on the table when you negotiate.

Gov. Scott Walkers idea is to have the union members pay more for their pensions and benefits, and not to have collective bargaining as a tool to negotiate, similar to many other states, identical to the federal government. On the other hand, the unions ideas are to stomp their feet, cry and shout, leave their jobs to protest, preserve their entitlements at all costs, and have their representatives in government run away so that government will come to a complete stop.

@Pietro

I don't disagree with your philosophy. The difference is what you may call excessive tax and I might not.

The best comment I have heard over the last couple months is that during the past negotiations between the state and the unions, there was no one representing the taxpayer. An example of this was Jon Corzine trying to get re-elected telling a union rally that he would get them the best deal. The relationship between elected politicians and public unions has to be broken. That is neither a right or left wing fight, that is a basic fairness fight. Also, the automatic payment of union dues as a condition of employment has to end. If you want join a union then pay your dues and have them negotiate for you. If you don't want to join a union that is your choice. I've worked in both situations and I don't like being told to join an organization of any type that I don't want to.

At the end of the day though all this posturing by the left will be irrelevant because the money is no longer there, either at the state or federal level. I asked earlier how do we raise the 1T a year to pay for the current spending of the federal government. Not one reply. So, there are going to be layoffs at the state level, and if we do nothing then a debt crisis will hit the country and that will force tax increases and spending cuts that nobody wants. You should listen to Chris Christie when explained to fire fighters that he was trying to save their pension because if things don't change then there will be nothing.

Hi Feisty,
GREAT!
From Will Farrell's Funny or Die Production Co

Job1:

The entire video was hysterically funny - but the ending about 28 days in February vs 30 was PRICELESS!

US Victim,

The democratic State Senators did the only thing they could do with the toxic environment that they faced. They put their careers on the line for their beliefs.

They are gutless cowards owned by the unions. The unions know they can't win and told them to skedaddle to buy time in order to bus in the machine of protesters, etc. in an effort to turn it around. It's not democracy.

In politics like everything else, you win some you lose some. Only children have a hard time grasping this simple truth. Time for them to put the big boy/girl pants on and grow up.

You too Navy.

bob-1805084

have you noticed the state of affairs her and in the Middle East? The President is very wise and plays chess in 3-D.

Right now he focusing on jobs; something the right is doing. When President Obama decides the game is most opportune you will hear him; OKAY

Obama is more like a 10 year old playing spin-the-bottle in a tent in the backyard, hoping the bottle dosen't stop on his ugly cousin.

Absolutely clueless.

Booby trap; I gave you a correction .

I repeat...

have you noticed the state of affairs here and in the Middle East? The President is very wise and plays chess in 3-D.

Right now he IS focusing on jobs; something the right is NOT doing. When President Obama decides the game is most opportune you will hear him; OKAY/

bob, have you seen a jobs bill yet?

It's been 54 days, 10 hours, 25 minutes and x amount of seconds since the bonehead took the gavel and still we have "0", nada, zilch, no jobs bill. Mr Boehner when is the jobs bill forthcoming?

http://whenarethejobs.com/

FYI: righties joining the union is optional

Bob:

You were doing so well...and now you blew it. With comments like above, are you running to be the poster child for the Tea Party? Thoughtless, simply thoughtless.

JoAnnaSmith1

bob: Jeff, So you are basically admitting that the schools are in shambles.

You can't on one hand, as the Liberals keep saying, say the public schools need more and more funding, our schools are falling further behind other countries, and we must continue to "invest" in our schools, and turn around and in the same breath say "Oh, but the teachers are wonderful, the unions are wonderful, the system is wonderful".

A little inconsistent, no?

Joanna where in my post did i say any thing about funding, that is a talking polint that is stuck in your head, HEY i have a great Idea, why not fall on your head to get it out.

also in my post where did i say teachers are wonderfull, again take a second fall.

Yes we all falling behind and that does bother me, but all you and your boy friend bob are saying is get rid of it.

i say untill parents are as involved in our childrens schooling as our parents, were schools will continue to fail.

But Joanna, that part of my life is in the past, i just hope parents do what me and my x-wife did and that is demaind the best classes, perpare kids for school, than perpare them for college. i spend alot of money sending them to summer school, for extra classes and the community college for college perp classes while they were in Highschool.

so Joanna after you have hit your head of the concrete a few times to get the republicans talking points you have inbedded in you, you can tells where your from so we can see just how bad your schools are as well, and what measures did you take to work with the system for a better education for your kids.

we can Bi*ch all we want but unless you can work the system in a way that is best for your kids you will end up like Joanna, all talk no solutions.

Nah... Ron - Anyday the righties are foaming at the mouth is a GREAT day to be a progressive! ;o)

JoAnnaSmith1

And that is exactly what Governors Walker, Daniels, Kasich, Cuomo, Brown and others are doing. The sweetheart deals the Democrats and the Unions (one of the same) made for themselves, and the expenses loaded, on to the taxpayers have bankrupt each of the states these Governors represent.

with the exception of taking away bargaining rights, Daniels has back off that and Kasich is rethinking it. Governors Rendell, Christie, Montana's governor, Connecticut's governor, Cuomo, and mayors Daley and Bloomberg was able to accomplish this same thing with out taking away bargaining rights.

more talking points, may be slam your head a third time on the concrete it just might help.

I don't disagree with your philosophy. The difference is what you may call excessive tax and I might not.

OK, Alan, NJ, I can live with your assessment. I think that maybe if Governors were a little more honest about explaining what the state(s) need and how much they have to work with, you would probably have less of an issue with taxes.

The best comment I have heard over the last couple months is that during the past negotiations between the state and the unions, there was no one representing the taxpayer. An example of this was Jon Corzine trying to get re-elected telling a union rally that he would get them the best deal. The relationship between elected politicians and public unions has to be broken. That is neither a right or left wing fight, that is a basic fairness fight. Also, the automatic payment of union dues as a condition of employment has to end. If you want join a union then pay your dues and have them negotiate for you. If you don't want to join a union that is your choice. I've worked in both situations and I don't like being told to join an organization of any type that I don't want to.

I don't know what your situation was in NJ concerning a union, but your union dues are deducted from your check if you VOLUNTARILY agree to it (and the permission is done in writing). A person can opt out of the union if they so choose. Again, I have been looking at the Collective Bargaining agreements in places other than NJ, so their agreement MAY BE DIFFERENT. However, it is an agreement that both the Employer (read as the State) and Union have signed on to. From what I have been reading, the Employer AGREES to deduct and forward on the dues to the Union. If you don't want the employer to do that, then you will have to take it up with the Union and the State to change the Collective bargaining Agreement.

At the end of the day though all this posturing by the left will be irrelevant because the money is no longer there, either at the state or federal level. I asked earlier how do we raise the 1T a year to pay for the current spending of the federal government. Not one reply. So, there are going to be layoffs at the state level, and if we do nothing then a debt crisis will hit the country and that will force tax increases and spending cuts that nobody wants. You should listen to Chris Christie when explained to fire fighters that he was trying to save their pension because if things don't change then there will be nothing.

Not one respose, Alan?? C'mon - my posts are verbose enough!! How can you NOT remember that whose series of posts that I made talking about how the Coporate tax revenue is too low? How can you look past all of the excouriating comments stating that Corporations don't need to pay taxes because they will go elsewhere?

The bottom line is this - the Corporate tax collections whould be on par with or exceeding the individual tax rates (the individual tax collection was 1.2 TRILLION while the Corporate tax collection was $800 BILLION). You ask a valid question - how will the Government raise $1 TRILLION in a year?

1. Get the Corporate tax collection to be at LEAST the same as the individual tax collection. That will raise at least $400 BILLION right there. That is the easiest of all options that can be handled almost immediately.

2. Make the necessary investment(s) in our infrastructure to realise a revenue gain of 5-7%. This would, in theory, give a bump of 5% in individual tax revenue as well as a bump of 10-12% in Corporate tax revenues.

3. Craft legislation that will remove all incentives for shipping jobs overseas. This has been tried in the 111th Congress, but blocked by the Senate Republicans. Now is the time to re-introduce this legislation and get this passed. The argument will be that the companies will go overseas and leave us anyway. My contention is this - if the market is profitable enough, the company will NOT GO ANYWHERE. The US Market is plenty profitable. If the company DOES decide to go overseas, then a) good riddance, and b) there will be other compnaies that will rush to fill the void.

There, Alan, there are three things that will, if enacted, will bring that $1 TRILLION you are asking for.

I don't know what your situation was in NJ concerning a union, but your union dues are deducted from your check if you VOLUNTARILY agree to it (and the permission is done in writing). A person can opt out of the union if they so choose.

Unless you are in a right-to-work state, you cannot opt out, or you can kiss your job goodbye. Thats one of the biggest issues. In Wisconsin, and other union states, you cannot get that job, such as a teacher, unless you want to belong to the union. Thats pretty un-American in my opinion. Only in a right-to-work state is union membership voluntary.

Pietro,

This is the Best one..

1. Get the Corporate tax collection to be at LEAST the same as the individual tax collection. That will raise at least $400 BILLION right there. That is the easiest of all options that can be handled almost immediately.

What a joke. Until such time as you Realize that the Business community is nothing but a Middleman for the Govt to take more of your money and give to the Govt you will always rail on this.

How much of the product or Service you buy from a Corporation has the Tax built into it? So you buy a Product or use a Service and then the Corporation Takes YOUR money and gives it to the Govt. All you want to do is Tax yourself and the Poor man More............... Business doens't Pay TAX. The people that use their Services Pay their TAXES..............

Hey Ron,

Sorry about being hard on your bud.

If he wants to rant about cyber bullies (call names), he should stand up for his beliefs. I do. I don't let bullies push me around. But you are right, I go too far, far too often.

In all honesty, we all (even you from time to time) get caught up in the senseless Feisty / Steve stuff from the weekend. Nothing personal against either one, but it's a shame it sets a tone.

Yesterday Candice came forward and seemed to change the tone for a while. It was nice to see an honest respectful exchange on both sides for a change.

Shame it happens so rarely.

Have a good day Ron.

Unless you are in a right-to-work state, you cannot opt out, or you can kiss your job goodbye. Thats one of the biggest issues. In Wisconsin, and other union states, you cannot get that job, such as a teacher, unless you want to belong to the union.

Actually, AZChzhd, I did NOT find what you posted in my research, and I have access to and have read THREE of the MANY Collective Bargaining agreements that the State of Wisconsin has agreed to. From what I have read, your assessment that a person cannot get the job unless you belong to the union is not altogether true. IN some of my reading, I saw that there ARE at least 400 people who are teachers and are NOT union in WI. The vast majority are Union. Now, remember, WI has over 400 school districts, so although the number of on-union teachers is small, it is still recorded. The Collective Bargaining agreement allows for non-union teachers, so why is that a talking point?

And yes, I can prove what I have posted, and I will do so with citations in the next day or so.

Unless you are in a right-to-work state, you cannot opt out, or you can kiss your job goodbye. Thats one of the biggest issues. In Wisconsin, and other union states, you cannot get that job, such as a teacher, unless you want to belong to the union.

Actually, AZChzhd, I did NOT find what you posted in my research, and I have access to and have read THREE of the MANY Collective Bargaining agreements that the State of Wisconsin has agreed to. From what I have read, your assessment that a person cannot get the job unless you belong to the union is not altogether true. IN some of my reading, I saw that there ARE at least 400 people who are teachers and are NOT union in WI. The vast majority are Union. Now, remember, WI has over 400 school districts, so although the number of on-union teachers is small, it is still recorded. The Collective Bargaining agreement allows for non-union teachers, so why is that a talking point?

And yes, I can prove what I have posted, and I will do so with citations in the next day or so.

Unless you are in a right-to-work state, you cannot opt out, or you can kiss your job goodbye. Thats one of the biggest issues. In Wisconsin, and other union states, you cannot get that job, such as a teacher, unless you want to belong to the union.

Actually, AZChzhd, I did NOT find what you posted in my research, and I have access to and have read THREE of the MANY Collective Bargaining agreements that the State of Wisconsin has agreed to. From what I have read, your assessment that a person cannot get the job unless you belong to the union is not altogether true. IN some of my reading, I saw that there ARE at least 400 people who are teachers and are NOT union in WI. The vast majority are Union. Now, remember, WI has over 400 school districts, so although the number of on-union teachers is small, it is still recorded. The Collective Bargaining agreement allows for non-union teachers, so why is that a talking point?

And yes, I can prove what I have posted, and I will do so with citations in the next day or so.

Bob:

You have a good day as well.

You have more credibility than NJ, so we can have an occasional civil conversation.

@Pietro

1. Get the Corporate tax collection to be at LEAST the same as the individual tax collection. That will raise at least $400 BILLION right there. That is the easiest of all options that can be handled almost immediately.

2. Make the necessary investment(s) in our infrastructure to realise a revenue gain of 5-7%. This would, in theory, give a bump of 5% in individual tax revenue as well as a bump of 10-12% in Corporate tax revenues.

3. Craft legislation that will remove all incentives for shipping jobs overseas. This has been tried in the 111th Congress, but blocked by the Senate Republicans. Now is the time to re-introduce this legislation and get this passed. The argument will be that the companies will go overseas and leave us anyway. My contention is this - if the market is profitable enough, the company will NOT GO ANYWHERE. The US Market is plenty profitable. If the company DOES decide to go overseas, then a) good riddance, and b) there will be other compnaies that will rush to fill the void.

1. So to get to this level of taxation would you remove the incentives to invest in plant and machinery? Would you remove write-offs for research and development. What about tax credits for employing new workers? And at the end of the day you raise 400B more, well what about the portion of that goes into pension funds for public workers. Less revenue for pensions creates more worries for the states.

2. Another stimulus? Where does the money come to make these "investments".

3. I must admit I'm confused on this one. I hear a lot about it but very few specifics. So what is the legislation that promotes jobs to go abroad? It would seem a no-brainer to repeal this. What exactly are you proposing to repeal?

How much of the product or Service you buy from a Corporation has the Tax built into it? So you buy a Product or use a Service and then the Corporation Takes YOUR money and gives it to the Govt. All you want to do is Tax yourself and the Poor man More............... Business doens't Pay TAX. The people that use their Services Pay their TAXES..............

Good LORD, Steve, can you be any dumber in your post?

It is in the best interest of Corporations to be a good Corporate neighbour, and it if means giving a little back to help the community that they are getting their business from, that is called - GOOD BUSINESS.

But Steve, since, as I am quoting you, 'Business doens't Pay TAX', they what DOES a corporation pay when it fills out its tax forms?

Who CARES if the business builds the tax in their products? if the price of the products are too high, people will stop buing those products. Does that mean that the tax is NOT represented in those products that they DO sell?

People who run Corporations are out to get as much as they can - bottom line. If you give them an inch, they will try and take a mile. The problem is that for too long, many of our elected officials ALLOWED the Corporations totake that mile instead of limiting them to the inch that they had asked for.

It is also about time that we voted with our wallets. If you do NOT like what the Koch Brothers are doing, then STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS. It is typical of the American consumer to protest the Koch Bothers at a rally, then go right to the supermarket and buy Koch Brothers products, thus negating your protest in the first place.

Pietro...here is what I dug up on that right-to-work issue, off www.nrtw.org.:

"The Right to Work principle--the guiding concept of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation--affirms the right of every American to work for a living without being compelled to belong to a union. Compulsory unionism in any form--"union," "closed," or "agency" shop--is a contradiction of the Right to Work principle and the fundamental human right that the principle represents. The National Right to Work Committee advocates that every individual must have the right, but must not be compelled, to join a labor union. The National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation assists employees who are victimized because of their assertion of that principle."

Hence, thats why they are right-to-work states. Wisconsin is not one of them. They mandate union memberships for certain jobs. If you can find the link you are seeking, please share it. I dont like passing on wrongful information. But as of right now, I was informed and read that in union states, union membership is mandatory to get these public sector jobs.

"Compulsory unionism is primarily responsible for the Tax-and-Spend policies of the U.S. Congress. Under their federally-granted coercive powers, union officials collect some $4.5 billion annually in compulsory dues and funnel much of it into unreported campaign operations to elect and control congressional majorities dedicated to higher taxes and increased government spending."

Once again the dems are in the back pockets of the unions. The unions made up of working class people of the country.

Once again the repubs are in the back pocket of the koch bros. Who only want what is best for their wallet.

Not a hard decision on which side has the american people's best interests, and who is working for the top 1%. Go sell your unpatriotic junk on Fox's site, where you can get all the pats on your back. Instead of coming here and whining the rich aren't being treated fairly.

1. So to get to this level of taxation would you remove the incentives to invest in plant and machinery? Would you remove write-offs for research and development. What about tax credits for employing new workers? And at the end of the day you raise 400B more, well what about the portion of that goes into pension funds for public workers. Less revenue for pensions creates more worries for the states.

Alan, NJ - To get to this level of taxation, I would explain to the Corporations that there is a cost of doing business that needs to be satisfied. Does that inclide some of the items that you have mentioned? Possibly. And since we are talking about Corporate Taxes, the pension funds for public workers s out of scope for THIS PARTICULAR argument. We are talking about the tax breaks and incentives that are continued even after the initial agreements are made, oftentimes where the Corporation does not have to pay its fair share. It is like you owned a building and your biggest tenant is the one that b!tches and complains the most about the rent they are paying when their rent is LESS than the mom-and-pop tenant that struggles to pay the bill on time and never complains.

2. Another stimulus? Where does the money come to make these "investments".

Alan, the Government has had INCREASING revenues over the past 10 years. What that means is that we have good enough 'cash flow' to be able to make the necessary investments. You can call it whatever you like, but we are STILL making money in our economy, no matter what the GOP/TP says.

3. I must admit I'm confused on this one. I hear a lot about it but very few specifics. So what is the legislation that promotes jobs to go abroad? It would seem a no-brainer to repeal this. What exactly are you proposing to repeal?

The first thing that we could do is reintroduce the legislation that was killed last year by the Senate Republicans that would have taken away all tax breaks for Corporations that outsource their jobs. This would change the way that the company does business in the States.

There are other options, for sure Alan, but these are the 'low hanging fruit', as it were, that can be done easily without much effort or issue.

"Compulsory unionism is primarily responsible for the Tax-and-Spend policies of the U.S. Congress. Under their federally-granted coercive powers, union officials collect some $4.5 billion annually in compulsory dues and funnel much of it into unreported campaign operations to elect and control congressional majorities dedicated to higher taxes and increased government spending."

AZChzhd, it sounds like the place where you are getting your information from seems to be politically slanted, as the language of the snippet above suggest a rightward slant. I do have, and will post sone of the Collective Bargaining Agreements that I have access to from SEIU and MTI in Wisconsin, and it CLEARLY states in those agreements that inclusion in the Union is voluntary, as well as the dues that are to be collected.

We will have more of a conversation on this in the next day or so.

Pietro,,

I am going to Explain this very Slowly to you.. The Corporation . TAKES YOUR MONEY THAT YOU SPENT ON THEIR PRODUCT AND GIVES IT TO THE GOVT...................... Tax them more they raise the cost of their GOODS. and guess who pays more......................... YOU......... they just take more of your MONEY TO DO IT..

I am going to Explain this very Slowly to you.. The Corporation . TAKES YOUR MONEY THAT YOU SPENT ON THEIR PRODUCT AND GIVES IT TO THE GOVT...................... Tax them more they raise the cost of their GOODS. and guess who pays more......................... YOU......... they just take more of your MONEY TO DO IT..

Steve, I'm going to explain this SLOWLY so that even you can understand it - WE DON'T HAVE TO BUY THEIR GOODS. So WHO CARES if they add the taxes into the costs of their products?

Steve, stick with Yawning. You do that better than trying to craft an argument.

Ron,

Why the unnecessary no joe shot?

Ron, you are/were in the mental health industry. You know how to not get sucked in into the personal level, to remain above it.

As they say in the biz "what is underneath" the real issue with no joe. I have never seen anything from her, that is even a small fraction of the obuse she receives. I can be mean, brutal and some cases very brutal, but I have never seen it from her. Nor I have ever seen any attempt to intentionally deceive anyone. She seems to simply be a person that feels very deeply about this country and the direction it is going. She comes here to voice her opinion with the desire engage in dialog. The big difference is that her view point is different than the left's and she is very good, very credible. Hence the marginalization?

Again, we all get caught up in it. Navy maybe to me what no joe is to you. His cyber bully comment was how long ago? I have deleted quite a few comments, haven't replied to Navy in weeks. Today for some reason, he led off and it came it out. I should have addressed him properly, refrained from the cheap shots and let the comments stand on their own. I will try to do better, reserve it for those that out-right ask for it.

You are highly respected by the left, go after no joe's arguments, represent the left, win over the independents if you can. That is what should be important right? The marginalization, the Feisty stuff, doesn't help your side and is boring.

Please try to make it just a little bit better place for people to visit, Ron. I will work it on it too.

Funny thing steve, they are going to raise prices anyway. We just usually don't get anything out of it. Raising taxes on companies (even if they just raise their prices) will put more money in the coffers. This will lead to a better infrastructure, better programs and hey, lets watch where we spend money and trim pork while we are at it. I don't understand this unamerican idea that taxes are bad?

Steve, that was unnecessarily rude.

Bob 18-Gosh I was so proud of your first few posts. They were more than two sentences long and sounded almost intelligent. You were actually DISCUSSING and not SNIPING. But then came the post where you got nasty again. As we all know, it only takes one "Aw, sh*t" to wipe out a hundred attaboys. I had hope for you for a little bit there. I thought you had actually read our emails from last week and understood the weaknesses of your posts. Guess not, huh?

I have two burrs under my saddle today. Number one is the headline on this story. Reed and Boehner blinked???? Why not say they decided to "compromise". That's what we want, compromise. This isn't a staring contest with the first one to blink loses. If nobody compromises we all lose. C'mon MSNBC, it's not that hard.

#2. I may be late to the party since I've been out of circulation for awhile (having a life) so this may be old news, but did you all see the story on BECK? Whoa Dude. Even the righties are starting to pull away from him. He finally got too crazy for the conservatives to defend. Is this the 7th sign of the end of the world???? Dump him in the drunk tank or the loony bin (whichever is closest) and replace him with someone semi-rational.

That's all, good job everyone, have a nice day.

Pietro,

Hahahahahahahahah............. Yawn........................

so Tell us . Which Corporation is it that your not going to buy from. . Would that be the local Safeway. Thriftway? Sears. Pennies.. K mart.. GM.. Ford............. Microsoft? Apple? which ones do you buy from? Every Product we buy comes from Business. . So tell us. Which Business is it that you are speaking of. The Local 7 Eleven? It doesn't matter Which Business you buy from They all Charge Enough for the Product they are Selling to Cover the TAXES . So anytime you buy something. You sir are giving more to the Govt.

BYL..

but who Pays More. Who does it hurt the Most. You think Raising Taxes on Business Hurts the Rich? No it hurts the People that Cant Afford to Spend more Money on that product. IE the middle Class and Poor...................

Bob - I see your post to Ron about No Joe.

I have posted this before, and I'll post it again. No Joe obfuscates on her posts and 'forgets' to mention things that are relevant to the argument. I have caught No Joe in her 'obfuscations', and to me, if you WILLINGLY mislead people with your posts, you are not worth the time to rebut or debate.

No Joe has done that on more than one occassion.

So, I do have her on permanent Ignore. She add no probative value to any argument, especially since most of her arguments are a 'dig' at President Obama, no matter what he does.

I don't have the time for that. For those conservatives that want to listen to her, go ahead. For those independents that want to listen to her, check her sources and you will find out quickly that she misleads OFTEN.

But don't take my word for it.

johnb (post 1.9) - care to support your statement...

In spite of an onslaught of Conservative "news" coverage describing the protesteres as "rioters" the Capital Chief of Police states;

I see that you, like other FR liberal posters do like to interject a wholy biased take on "news". I read your link and your links links but found nothing to support your above claim. The capital chief of police didn't say or imply it. Even politifacts wisconsin when asking rep paul ryan to clarify his comments (said during a morning joe interview) acknowledged that ryan's reply was...

"It was an inaccurate comparison."

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/paul-ryan/us-rep-paul-ryan-compares-madison-cairo-calls-prot/

Please "an onslaught of conservative news...protesters as rioters". What BS even a web search hasn't produced the results you claim. S

ince 'language has consequences' ever think you and your cohorts could post something of "consequence" for it has become way to easy to debunk you and your colleages attempts to promote a one party system in that conservatives (the right) are wrong and that the FR liberals are right. Thank God that most liberals and democrats don't wear the blinders you and some of your colleagues do.

Typical Conservative oversimplification. Increased taxes do get passed on to consumers...but only to the extent that consumers are willing to pay. Remember that magical, mystical, invisible hand of the free market? Therefore a portion of increased taxes going to come out of corporate profits. Since corporate profits are at all time record levels and average Americans are struggling to come out of the Bush Recession probably a good deal of any increased tax will come out of profits, as a matter of fact.

John.

Obviously you dont understand how Business Works. If you Raise my Taxes by 10 percent I dont have to Raise the Price of my product by 10 percent to cover the Taxes. Point Being. If i sell a product for 100 dollars........... I first get to Deduct what i paid for that product from who i bought it from then i get to deduct all the cost of my Employees and all other Costs of doing business. So although i may make a Profit of 20 dollars on that product. I only have to Raise the Cost of that product by 2 Dollars to offset the Taxes that you raised on me. So instead of 100 dollars for the Product You pay 102 dollars. Not a great increase for you to pay my Taxes. Think of how small of an increase i have to make on a 25 dollar item... Its someting that you really dont notice. Yea we get it so instead of paying 4.22 cents for that 20 oz Latte . You pay 4.25 cents. Not much of a difference and guess who paid more............. Not the company......... YOU...

John B. are you that against corporations that you don't realize what the function of the corporation is? The primary function of the corporation is to make money for their stockholders. It doesn't matter whether they make widgets or gizmos, the main purpose is to produce money.

If corporate profits are at a all time high, it could be one of several factors. First one I think of is that the value of the dollar is at a all time low. It appears as if they are making huge profits dollar wise, but is the real valuation at a all time high, or is it just in paper money that is practically worthless. Just think of a loaf of bread. How much do we pay today in comparison to 10 years ago. A loaf of bread is the value, the dollars we pay today are much more.

I realize this is a simplification of the extent of corporations, but sometimes you have to stand back and evaluate why you have animosity against something.

Pietro:
Thanks for responding to Bob. You said it better than I.

Public vs. private workers??? What the hell is anyone arguing about? A few percent difference in pay and benefits?

BIG DEAL - like arguing over who saw a penny on the ground first!

Here is where the money went and has been for a long time!

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/news/economy/middle_class/

And we, the middle class strength of America - LOST.

Courtesy of the Collaspe Cowards....... i will repost .

We know its nasy Redhead and her band of Drunking Progressive who spend their Time over at the DEW DROP INN.

Steve-505729 Comment collapsed by the community

Ha....

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Nah... Ron - Anyday the righties are foaming at the mouth is a GREAT day to be a progressive! ;o)

• !

#1.54 - Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:42 AM PST

We are far from foaming at the Mouth. That would be you Libbies here today. After a Long weekend of Drinking at the DEW DROP INN your mouths are probably a bit dry .. and as Usual the Head Sloppy Drunk Nasty Redhead. is leading them. Do you feel it all Slipping away.

american, thanks for disproving your own point. Conservative Republican Paul Ryan says (in the article YOU linked):

He added, referring to Walker, "So he's basically saying ‘I want you public workers to pay half of what our private sector counterparts’ and he's getting riots -- it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days."
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/paul-ryan/us-rep-paul-ryan-compares-madison-cairo-calls-prot/

That point on the morning show of Gingrich Conservative Joe Scarborough. Meanwhile in the words of law enforcement;

"For the most part, people have been very respectful and very orderly," said Elise Schaffer, public information officer for the Dane County Sheriff’s Department. "It certainly has been a very peaceful protest."

I've heard Beck and Hannity both refer to the situation in Madison as "rioting". Here's a quote from the American Conservative Daily;

The more the unions riot, the less support they will have among the American people.

http://www.americanconservativedaily.com/2011/02/democrats-flee-conflict-in-wisconsin/

Townhall.com says;

Welcome to another new normal: If you don't like something your government is doing, or if your government is not doing something you think it should be doing - riot.

http://townhall.com/columnists/richgalen/2011/02/18/dont_like_it_riot

Steve doesn't even realize he's claiming that the Free Market determines the natural level of all wages and prices, EXCEPT that the iron laws of Economics are suspended in the case of corporate taxes. Those taxes are added without exception to whatever price the Free market determines is natural.

Anyone see a conflict there?

Ron, if you don't mind, I'll go ahead and use this space:

Said Mike Huckabee: “The people that are sitting around saying, ‘He’s definitely going to be a one-term president. It’s going to be easy to take him out,’ they’re obviously political illiterates -- political idiots, let me be blunt.”

It is like he is speaking DIRECTLY to nojo; but she refuses to hear him, or listen or believe the writing on the wall. I finally agreed with Haley Barbour on something yesterday - Our President is a political Wonder,...and it's not really disputable by anyone with common sense. Only the truly embittered and tone deaf would decry otherwise.

Don't mind at all Clara.

I was saving it just for you. Smart Republicans (maybe an oxymoron) know our President cannot be beaten.

As for NJ's love affair with Mitch Daniels, yesterday ol' Mitch told Fox news not to focus on his time as Bushs' Budget Director. While Budget Director the country went from a surplus of 236 Billion to a deficit of 400 billion. The source of this information is FOX NEWS.

Yes.. and then under the Obama Administration has taken it to . 1.65 Trillion. over 4 Times what Bushes was. Well Go Figure................... the Democrats out spend the Republicans 4 to 1

Here's what I don't get, Clara---I can understand having differences with the President on governing philosophy, specific policy issues, etc. I don't have those differences but I understand that there is room to differ in politics. But the incessant criticism of every single thing the man does, down to having a musical evening at the White House or the First Lady encouraging proper nutrition, is simply beyond me. Gov. Huckabee said it right---idiotic.

over 4 Times what Bushes was.

Ah, if only. GW Bush's last budget had a deficit of $1.4T. I'm not a math teacher but I'm reasonably sure 1.65 isn't 4 times 1.4.

Thanks for playing.

It is not just that the dems outspend repubs 4 to 1. The dems put everything on the books and the pugs hide 75% of it. Unfunded wars, unfunded medical aid, unfunded everything under bush. You thought we'd never have to pay for it if we ignored it? Talk about the party of personal responsibility. Keep looking at what everyone else is doing while your house crumbles around you.

Bush never disclosed the cost of the two wars. That's why his budget appeared smaller. He also signed TARP into legislation which also grew the budget. It was too late by then.

Steeler fan - Incessant criticism??? Surely you jest! Apparently you choose to ignore the constant barrage of criticism by your colleagues towards conservatives, righties or anyone else who disagrees with them. Ok for your buds to criticise and mock but we can't return the favor? ndd would call that hypocrisy.

american

in honor of Leslie Nielson (sp?) - Don't call her Shirley!

"A Republican plan to sharply cut federal spending this year would destroy 700,000 jobs through 2012, according to an independent economic analysis set for release Monday" Washington Post

President Obama has made every attempt to not repeat the mistakes of Hoover, (do nothing and expect the economy to correct itself). The options are not as simple as "stop spending and drastic cuts" that cost US jobs.

The country cannot stand another round of layoffs and increased unemployment. I had pause when the words were uttered that the stimulus wasn't big enough. I now believe it. If 700K more are displaced from their jobs--unemployment benefits will be paid. In today's world, wealth is the same--held by a miniscule % of people. To thank them for their "non-contribution" to society is a sham. The US corporate branding is a ruse on the American public. If India and China thinks they are sitting well with US products being made in their countries--think again. Corporations are out scouting for even cheaper labor. Give us Eisenhower tax policies for the wealthiest. It did not harm innovation and unemployment was basically non-existent.

Louis J:

Love the Superman analogy, right on. It should be interesting to see how far this goes. I heard a rumor on MSNBC and CNN that there may be up to 3 republican State Senators in WI that are NOT supporting the demise of the "Collective Bargaining" repeal. This would defeat Walkers bill by one vote. Only a rumor but there is one for sure that will not vote for the bill. Maybe where there is one there are more. Time will tell.

Louis,

The GOP/TP party may only know what they don't want, but they lack the vision to have a plan that will help all.

They are more interested in working for their rich masters, give them what the want, lower taxes, no regulation. The budget cuts are aimed at the poor and the vunerable, those that have the least influence.

GBM:

True, the GOP/TP has never looked beyond just immediate gratification. They do not see the long term results of their actions or they do and just do not care since somebody else will have to deal with it. Just like the last Adminstration did and put us into the mess we are in now.

Perfect comparison, Louis J, well done! Bizzaro suits the right wing narrative and ideology today.

USN, You are so right my friend, they dont have any vision, therefore, the long term results are not a factor. When you are dancing to someone else's tune, and are paid a lot for that dance ,you really dont care what the results may be. They are like a one night stand, bought and paid for, then next please.

Navy, your right about who caused this mess. The Big Banks and Wall Street. I was happy to see that Inside Job won the Academy Award for best Documentary. I have read about this movie and seen clips. Can't wait to see the whole thing.

IR:

Kudos, this does look like "Alice in Wonderland", who is the Mad Hatter?? (LOL). How about the Queen who wants "off with their heads"?

IR:

My favorite line in Alice in Wonderland is, "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." Looks like the Tea Party are going down that road.

Morning folks.... Yeh Ron the thing about traveling that road is that you don't need a Map to get there. If you wander down it long enough sooner or later you look up and there you are wondering how you got there and wondering how your ever going to find you're way back to where you wanted to be in the first place.

Terrific post, IR. Seems too many are willing to jump into the rabbit hole thinking the outcome will be different this time. Two little words, tax cuts, convince people it's a nice place to go.

funny analogy. I would have said sp for the queen, but after a month of media black out, I don't miss her one bit. (Funny or die was hilarious btw)

The only thing I hate about this kind of exercise is that in the end, whether it is bohener as mad hatter and beck as dormouse, there are real people who are suffering because of this run-away party. As they try to heave the country to the right and claiming middle ground, there are people who are going to go to bed hungry and cold in the best, richest most free country in the world.

"It ain’t over on April 15! If you stop, for example, for a $10 pizza on
Thursday night to celebrate being done with the IRS for another year, the
taxman will be right there to grab a slice or two. On top of paying the sales
tax, you’ll also be picking up a major chunk of what the government charges the
pizza shop owner for local property taxes, unemployment insurance taxes,
federal payroll taxes, federal and state and local income taxes, and worker’s
compensation taxes. Altogether, according to a study by the Americans for Tax
Reform, that comes to $3.80 on a $10 pizza for the omnipresent taxman. If you
pick up a Bud six-pack to go with the pizza, there’s another 43 cents of each
beer dollar that goes straight to the taxman for excise taxes, income taxes,
property taxes, etc. For something stronger, say Jack Daniels, the taxman’s
share is $7.20, on average, out of every $10. Go lighter and just drink Pepsi
and it’s 35 percent of what you pay that goes for taxes at all levels. Add some
Marlboros and its 75 percent of the retail price that’s funneled directly into
the state’s coffers. Get home and hit the light switch and another $26 out of
every $100 on the electric bill goes for government rather than electricity. If
you’re flying the next day, the taxman is up early and waiting at the aiport,
pocketing $40 on every $100 airline ticket. And he’s there in the hotel lobby
when you land, snatching $43 on every $100 of the hotel bill. Go out to dinner
and it’s another $28 of every $100 of the tab that ends up with the government
rather than with the restaurant, the farmers, truckers and everyone else who
worked together to produce the meal."
-- Ralph Reiland

Get the picture? 2/3 of the Federal Budget is the redistribution of wealth; enough is enough.

You "bleeding heart liberals" need to educate yourselves on what it means to be an American. I can not teach you, but maybe you'll listen to Dr. Williams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUL152yGVGI

"I prefer thieves to politicians. A thief will take your money and be on his way. However, a politician will take your money, and then expect you to stand there and listen while he explains the reasons why you should be happy about it."
--Dr. Walter E. Williams, John M. Olin Distinguished Professor of Economics, George Mason University

And yet, Wake Up, we (the electorate) continue to vote in the very same 'theives' that are driving this country into the ground. I guess we don't ENABLE much, do we?

Wake up do you have a point are you looking for a place to make a fool out of yourself cause as far as I can tell that's what your doing a pretty good job of.

I'm just doing what I can to keep up with the rest of you; it keeps us all thinking.

Nothing wrong with thinking, that's for sure. Tell you what, the thing we like the most around here is when someone on the Conservative side posts something that's thorough, thought out, and supported in principle. Those are the things that start great back and forth conversations, see Frank (Grimey) Grimes. It's easy to respect someone who clearly has thought throught his/her positions and is willing to discuss in depth.

John B:

Great post to start the week. You hit the problem on the head. There is no way to quantify/qualify the actual costs of these spending cuts. I agree that there is a lot of fraud on a lot of levels both in the Federal and State System. Take the "Big Dig" in MA for example or the spare F-35 Jet Engine.

If reducing the deficit by means of getting rid fraud, waste, redundancy, bad and non functional programs, etc then why are we not going after those?

We all agree that our Government (State and Federal) need to get their house in order and live within their means. I believe we should be looking at everything and the cuts should be across the board so everybody has some skin in the game. These people are still talking about Social Security changes to reduce the deficit, saw it again this AM, Social Security has nothing to do with the deficit. It is paid for by payroll taxes. The GOP/TP wants to eliminate needed services for the middle class and the poor, reward those that created the problem by giving them tax cuts and special concessions and they want ONLY the Middle Class to pay 100% of the bill. This is wrong.

I guess you just happened to overlook the fact that he was a DEMOCRAT. I guess it would have happened if he were a republican, too.

Read here

http://sightsonpennsylvania.blogspot.com/2009/02/luzerne-county-democratic-committee-and.html

No, I don't CARE if he's a Democrat. It really doesn't matter because my entire thesis is the corruption and extra cost to the taxpayers that comes from privatization. It's a Conservative ideological directive that fails in the real world, regardless of party.

With the need for profit, pay for the ownership, and additional oversight from government to ensure compliance with contract terms there are only two sources for cost savings;

-Reduction in service. Certainly that was the case here in Iowa when rest area maintenance was outsourced. The state had to pay more than the previous budget to get contractors who would provide adequate service. Same thing with mowing the Interstate ditches and medians. Previously state DOT workers would just hop on a tractor when there weren't other pressing matters, and with minimal cost (capitalization and upkeep of the mowers) the work got done 4 times per Summer. After privatizing the work the state had to pay DOUBLE to get the mowing done TWICE.

-Reduction in wages. That's what this is really about. If you can pay the workers enough less you can make it a win. Of course in doing so you're attacking the incomes of middle class people who attend your churches and schools, and shop in your local stores. That money is instead sent up the pipeline to the wealthy instead. Guess that fits the Conservative goal pretty well.

Am I saying that government will ALWAYS be more efficient? Certainly not, but when there's steady work of sufficient volume to keep people busy that's usually the case. Building a new parking garage or remodeling the court house? Private contractors all the way. Cleaning that court house? Privatization is a loser, every time.

political affiliation has nothing to do with John B's argument at all. He is talking about the political arena in general and he is correct and his facts are easily verified.

It gets pretty tiring to have to address people on this board that have no ideas to help this country, no facts to support that another poster is lying just because you do not like their opinion.

It just further demonstrates those that want to be part of the solution as to those that just do not. They have theirs and are not one bit interested in helping this country at all.

John B.

GREAT Research on you part. It backs up the fact that FDR and his ideas were the right course and saved our middle class.

Navy:

Of all people in here are you suggesting ideology and political affiliation has nothing to do with what you and your ilk post? Man get real. Everything you post is hostile to Republicans. I will give you maybe 1 post in 1000 against a Democrat.

When people do post facts; if they are not from ThinkProgress, HuffPost, DailyKos, MSNBC; then you automatically dismiss it as a Fox News Lie. How do you not know that all of that Cut N Paste that you have perfected is not a LIE?

Everything is a frikken OPINION in here. No one in here serves in any capicity of the U.S. government in a position to change something. So you come in here and bytch and moan because ultimately, no one in here is running a damn thing but their mouths.

Your OPINION is no better than anyone else's.

If you would like to donate a greater portion of your earnings to the government, then go ahead. Their is no law preventing YOU from helping this country. I'm quite sure your extra $20.00 will get us out of debt pronto.

BTW: ON a personal note; I think you are a complete jackazz the way you sanctimoniously dismiss other's opinion because they choose not to Cut N Paste articles WRITTEN BY OTHERS.

John B,

Nice work this morning! Check out my post above about the rabid righties around here! lol

They're in a real TIZZY today for some reason!

John B

And those are only the ones who got CAUGHT,...Imagine the depth of this situation? But without regulators, we cannot even BEGIN to imagine it, now can we?

And nojo,...why is it ALWAYS partisanship with you? Wrong is Wrong and BOTH SIDES do it. All the Time. Regulation and GOVERNMENT is the only way to MINIMIZE it,...

Feisty, they are in a tizzy because their 'standard bearers' (using it loosely here) are already conceding defeat to President Obama - Mike Huckabee, John Thune, Haley Barbour - I think Newtie is only throwing his hat in for the 'why not?' vote,...

John B., great informative post.

Something conservatives do not explain is how the private sector would pay for the streets and highways they pave, bridges, etc. Since it was built in the 1800's the bridge connecting Iowa and Illinois in my town was privately owned; it fell in twice. It was built for horse and buggy, had a wooden floor and two cars could barely pass each other; you hoped not to pass any car and prayed not to meet a semi truck while you were on it. When entering the bridge, everyone rolled their windows down in case it collapsed and folks ended up in the water. The private owners always said that as soon as the bridge was paid for, the toll would be reduced--of course, when that happened, they sold the bridge to the next owner and the cycle began again. The last toll fee was $1.00 in the late 60's. Finally, the town and Iowa bought it, a new bridge was built and as promised once the tolls paid for it, the bridge was and is free. There are high traffic bridges between Iowa and Illinois that charge a toll but it is relatively small amount and covers maintenance.

My point is that everything done by private business sounds good except it is highly likely that the cost to use and maintain these things like bridges, street and roads will be raised by use-fees and ultimately those fees will far exceed the amount we pay for the same services in taxes. Reducing the size of government sounds logical but it will be replaced with the fees of corporate masters who only look to make a profit.

Your OPINION is no better than anyone else's.

If you would like to donate a greater portion of your earnings to the government, then go ahead. Their is no law preventing YOU from helping this country. I'm quite sure your extra $20.00 will get us out of debt pronto.

BTW: ON a personal note; I think you are a complete jackazz the way you sanctimoniously dismiss other's opinion because they choose not to Cut N Paste articles WRITTEN BY OTHERS.

What a total MUSHROOM, lives in the dark and eats sh!t. I have never said my opinion is better than anybody else's. In fact I have defended the rights of people to post what ever they want on this post as long as it does not promote violence. That is a fact.

I have no problem with President Obama putting the rax schedule back to the Clinton era as long as the richest 2% pay their fair share as well.

I have no problem with cutting articles and pasting them to verify a person position. I point out when they are not germane to the discussion or people try and pass off a GOP/TP blog as facts. Everybody is entitled to their opinion not to make up facts or just copy talking points and present them as facts.

You sir are the liar again. We had this discussion before. You and your kind are part of the problem, you just refuse to be part of the solution, you have no new ideas at all so you resort to personal attacks. Go ahead knock yourself out. Do you feel better now??

MUSHROOM

Navy:

nlm. Me an my kind ......lol........man go somewhere and sit your old, tired azz down.

Blog as facts????: What the hell is ThinkProgress?, What is the DailyKos?, WAPO OpEd? All of these are your sources.

I see your that guy that places a finger in his azz and farts to see if he can really blow his top off.

x

@Jody

Finally, the town and Iowa bought it, a new bridge was built and as promised once the tolls paid for it, the bridge was and is free.

Really? Please let me know the materials used to build this maintenance free bridge. Or, maybe you could look up the state/town expenditures and see how much taxpayers are paying to maintain the bridge. Basically you have shifted the cost from the people who actually used the bridge to all taxpayers. Now if I'm on a fixed income and never use this bridge how is this fair?

Ah, the old "I'll pay for my own d@mn roads" argument. Civilization costs a certain amount of money to maintain. What your selling is the fall of civilization, not its continuance.

Ah, the old "I'll pay for my own d@mn roads" argument. Civilization costs a certain amount of money to maintain. What your selling is the fall of civilization, not its continuance.

Correct, civilization as you put it is not free and neither is Jody's bridge. Someone is paying for it. I don't believe in the "I'll pay for my own d@mn roads" argument but neither do I believe that what the goods and services supplied by the government are free.

Alan, NJ. Jeez, use your head. I did not say it was a "maintenance free" bridge but it is not a high-traffic bridge and the cost to have toll booths and someone there to collect them would exceed the amount of tax money needed for its maintenance.

I read someone arguing that we should privatize police. He said he could hire his own security that is better than police. The problem is many people won't be able to afford it and there will be some completely lawless neighborhoods (a lot of them). Come to think of it, there is a place just like that. They call it Somalia. Wish he'd move there.

ceberw - many do not realise that there is a COST to running this country that we MUST pay. You can call it the OPERATING COST of our society, and part of that Operating Cost is having Hospitals, Firemen and Police Officers. This person you read about that wants to privatize police is not dealing with a full deck. All that person sees is the $$$ 'savings' for not having a unionized police force, and doesn't realise that privatising police is NOT a good thing for civilized society. If he is successful, we will have anarchy and then that SAME person will turn to you and say 'What have WE done?'.

Nash:

Morning. I agree, President Obama handled both Egypt and Libya as well as any President could. He even got 100% support from the UN and our American Citizens are safe. He does know what he is doing and the GOP/TP do not like it one bit.

Great post, Nash--happy Monday to you. I find it refreshing that the President rolls up his sleeves, gets to work and does what he thinks is right, without needing to answer the pundits who think it should be done differently. I always remember that he has more facts available to him than those pundits do and he has the ability to think several moves ahead.

Good morning US Navy and Steeler Fan . . . thanks for sharing your thoughts . . . excellent as always!

You are so right. President Obama has handled the situation with a steady hand and a clear head.

If President Obama had made some bellicose Bush-like comment about Libya or sent in planes before Americans were evacuated, it could have resulted in Gadhafi seizing American diplomats as hostages. The right wingdings who post here would have just loved that. They are always eager to dream up some comparison of Obama to Jimmy Carter, and that would actually give them a reason.

The right wingdings who post here would have just loved that.

Make no mistake, they were PRAYING for it!

Feisty:

Very true. They want this country to tank as they see this as the only road to the White House. They will blame everything on President Obama of course. Did you notice that our resident Nay Sayers have nothing to say today on how well our President handled the Libian crisis?? Just the same old same old from the same old same old.

Bravo to that, Nashville. How many comments last week accusing President Obama of not doing enough to deal with Libya and not one of those critics ever gave a thought to the concept that doing things correctly behind the scenes leads to a much better conclusion that speaking into a microphone. President Obama again does what is right regardless of the beltway, pundit and blogger noise machines that constantly criticize. Great job, Mr. President!

Navy--------- First why do you post these 2 page posts no one reads the crap you post anyway except Bev and Jody and feistey and no one reads theirs..

First Walker needs to go to court and get a judge to rule on how long the parasite legislators can stay out of state before they can be ruled they have abandoned, their constituency.

.

Next, fire all of the strikers, now is the perfect time, he can replace them in about two weeks.

Videotape and identify all of the protesters any of them that are suppose to be working can be fired and sued for restitution of the wages they stole.

Last but not least looks like we have the guy we need to run against Obama, he would hammer Obama unmercifully in the election..

Boehner, you are making noises like a RINO, quit playing footsies with Reid and Obama, we elected you to oppose Obama and cut spending, you start this reasonable crap with the parasites you will be out of a job in the primaries, next year.

jerry194283:

Governor Walker?

Is that you?

You sound like Muammar Gaddafi.

jerry194283

What kind of drugs do you take that make you so delusional? No one is going to defeat President Obama.

Strikers? There is no strike.

Jody:

Super post thanks for the additional info (facts).

It is a triumph of right-wing spin that the collapse of 2008 and the ensuing recession (which could have been a Depression) could be blamed on unions and public employees. Meanwhile, Wall Street will again pay out millions in bonuses and no one on the right will find any fault with that.

I went to two GREAT rally on Saturday, called STOP THE WAR ON WORKERS. Afterwards, there was a rally to STOP GOVERNMENT CONTROL ON WOMENS RIGHTS.

Come on people, right or left, think about it. Wall Street is sitting fat and happy risking another economic collapse and conservatives are attacking middle class workers as bottom feeders and free loaders.

The Republicans want to punish the unions for the crimes committed by the corporate malefactors responsible for the deficits and the recession. And those same corporations get yet more tax cuts as rewards for their crimes, ensuring that they'll commit them again as soon as possible.

Jody, Iowa great post smacked with truisms.

@ Nashville_fan Good morning, you always amaze me with you positivity and keen insight.

Don't forget how the President kicked butt with the Somalia pirates last year.

@Job1

I went to two GREAT rally on Saturday, called STOP THE WAR ON WORKERS. Afterwards, there was a rally to STOP GOVERNMENT CONTROL ON WOMENS RIGHTS.

That's real good solidarity. Good on you.

I went to moveon.org's rally in downtown Chicago. It felt good to lend my voice and ears.

Jody...I agree with ya, I was pissed we elected Gov Braindead in the first place. The Iowa GOP is going to regret the take over of most of the states. I love democracy but I love common sense and reasonable thinking more....we need alot of help in both.....Des Moines

Houston, Big banks and Wall street are sitting pretty the problem is they own both parties. The sin of it is that we all have to suffer for it. Why are non of the fat cats being prosecuted why haven't their assets been seized. Maddoff isn't the only one who should be in jail.

Where do you get this that the "poor" don't make good decisions about their health care? I've got people in my township who are saving like mad to pay their $20.80 per month sewer bill and heat their homes... and decide which of their pills to buy?... Please don't assume that you have the faintest idea of what you are talking about. The GOP has no problems paying their medical bills and the Congress certainly doesn't... Do you honestly think that if Cheney were some poor guy in Indiana he'd still be alive?... or those people with not being covered by Medicare in AZ with transplants... If you have the money.. you live.. if you don't you are dead...

I think what Wm was trying to say is that being poor often forces poor health choices (there are always exceptions to people in general making bad decisions, rich or poor) buying the cheapest food available which is the least healthy option, more macaroni and cheese from a box, spaghetti can feed a larger number; cheapest isn't fresh fruits and vegetables. Apples, $1.69 a pound on sale--if you're lucky a pound yields two apples, maybe three if they're really small; bananas, average $.59 lb.

The goal should be to spend more money to provide a hand up through education assistance, job training programs, etc. The more money spent on pre-school for children, after school tutoring programs for children and include parents with their children in after-school educational efforts to help them help their children. Open the schools a few hours twice a week, use volunteers from the business community as well as teachers to broaden parental knowledge; children sitting with their parents and both learning would have many benefits because children learn by example.

Too often our system due to lack of funds allows the vulnerable to fall through the cracks and that failure passes from one generation to the next and the expense increases. A penny spent on these kinds of programs can be measured in dollars saved in the future. Penny wise and pound foolish applies.

If the Republicans were serious about the deficit, they would already have agreed to end the tax cuts for the wealthy, which cost about $700 billion a year. But they're not serious. The reason they want to cut spending is to keep the unemployment rate as high as possible for the 2012 election.

Houston-

Excellent!

I forgot to mention the extension of all the Bush-era tax cuts as an example of my central point about the vast difference between what President Obama says...and actually does.

For those who may have forgotten...the Obama Administration approached the Congressional Republican leadership and initiated the talks which led to the agreement extending of all the Bush-era tax cuts. This in spite of the fact that President and then-Senator Obama had been a consistent and vocal opponent of the tax cuts.

How could I have omitted that?

Thanks for the reminder.

Nice attempt to rewrite history MB, but most of our memories go back 3 months. It was well reported in December that Republicans were filibustering the extension of ANY tax cuts unless the top 2% got their extra special break.

Republicans were willing to see EVERYONE's tax break expire if the bulk of the money didn't go to the wealthy elites. As hard as Conservatives worked to accomplish this I'd think you'd be pleased to brag about it.

Good morning, John-

Which, exactly, of my comments do you believe you are you rebutting?

Which are factually inaccurate?

Do you have any views on the CBO estimate of $13 trillion in new debt over the next 10 years?

Or that interest on the debt will rise to $844 billion annually?

Or how those two CBO findings so obviously clash with President Obama's oft-stated desire to address the nation's debt crisis?

What's wrong with this picture, John?

What are the implications of interest-on-the-debt payments approaching $1 trillion annually, John?

I have no problem with tax increases as part of the solution to this crisis...the President's commission made it abundantly clear that there's no viable alternative to a package of across-the-board-spending cuts and tax increases. We cannot achieve sustained economic growth levels sufficient to address the crisis through economic growth alone...the numbers involved are simply too great.

In light of what we know about the dimensions of the debt crisis, the CBO projections have an other-worldly quality...and reveal that the country is headed in exactly the wrong direction.

Which, if polling is any indication...most of us already know.

I assume ITM is among the 2% richest Americans, therefore, he finds it appropriate for republicans to hold the other 98% hostage to get tax cuts for that 2%. If republicans were honestly serious about fiscal responsibility and not just talking out the side of their mouths, the GOP would have allowed tax cuts for 2% to increase.

It is equally hypocritical for conservatives to bash the CBO when the numbers are not to their liking but yet they embrace the CBO if they agree.

Goldman Sachs did a study which declared that the House GOP budget cuts would seriously hinder the economic growth. With few exceptions, every economist agrees that at times debt is the only want to achieve future growth. The goal should be to reduce unnecessary spending but not IF that reduction impacts the economy. Both sides should be planning for the future spending cuts but not draconian cuts today. The economy remains fragile, it would not take much to stop growth completely but I think the GOP is more concerned with regaining the White House than it is with America's future.

I heard a really funny joke at an Oscar Party last night:

A Tea Party Official, a CEO and a Union Worker ended up seated together at an airport lounge. The waitress set a dozen hot baked cookies in the center of the table and said, "Compliments of the ticket surcharges!"

The CEO reaches over and takes 11 cookies and says to the Tea Party Official, "You better watch out, that Union guy's about to take your cookie!"

Bag:

I forgot to mention the extension of all the Bush-era tax cuts as an example of my central point about the vast difference between what President Obama says...and actually does.

You also forgot to mention that the president had no other choice except to let tax cuts expire for everyone because the Republicans were holding the middle class tax cuts hostage. If Obama hadn't compromised with the Republicans, you would be attacking him for ideological intransigence instead. No matter what he does, people afflicted with Obama Derangement Syndrome will find some excuse to bash him.

Houston-

I thought the President did what he did because the large Democratic majorities in Congress did nothing to address the issue even though they knew all along that all the tax cuts would expire in January, 2011, but declined to address the matter until after the historic 2010 Republican midterm victory.

Or, maybe he felt that now was a bad time to raise taxes on anyone...it's hard to say which, really, because as I pointed out, many of the President's statements on the issue contradict his actions.

On a related note, Houston, you refer to the "tax cuts for the wealthy which cost about $700 billion a year."

The bill that included the 2-year extension of all the Bush-era tax cuts that President Obama signed on December 17th of last year totaled $858 billion, correct? And, in addition to the 2-year tax cut extension for all brackets, provided a 13-week extension of unemployment benefits and a payroll tax holiday? Again...that whole package added up to $858 billion.

Please explain your math, Houston.

Jody, Iowa-

Was your comment addressed to ITM...or to me?

If your remarks were a response to MY post, then I'll offer this:

Where in my comments have you seen me bashing the CBO?

And believe me, Jody...I'm in no way embracing the CBO finding that $13 trillion in new gross debt will be added by the federal government in the next 10 years. Hardly...

Nor am I embracing a projection of nearly $1 trillion a year annually to service the national debt.

Why isn't the left enraged by the prospect of that insane, even obscene, amount of the nation's resources being diverted in order to service debt?

Who do you think is most threatened by that?

The wealthy?

Why should I be surprised? The left doesn't support President Obama's efforts against the Taliban in Afghanistan...even though women and girls, the educated, and enlightened thought generally will be brutually oppressed and suppressed (again) in Afghanistan should the Taliban regain control. They'll go after people like you long before they get around to conservatives, Jody.

Anyway...the U.S. debt crisis threatens the nation's poor far more than anyone else.

In spite of everything, I remain surprised that liberals are unable to understand this.

dottielou:

I am with ya. We just have to wait and see. I heard that over 100,000 were at Madison this weekend and they would not clear out the capital either.

If the Viet Nam era tells us anything, protests have a way of growing sometimes.

dottielou:

The sleeping giant has been awakened and the Republican Party will rethink their positon. The Tea Party, not so much. They will keep their head in the sand.

.....and just where did you HEAR that?

That is like the saying "They Say" but never saying who THEY is.

You ask someone else and they will say I HEARD it was a million at the capital alone.

This is exactly what I thought. Vietnam-Era relics attempting to re-live the 60's.

Just like the war in Iraq, no one ever points out the people most vilified during Vietnam were those who realized it was a bad idea. THEY were the subject of the popular slogan of the time "America...love it or leave it."

"How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?...."--John Kerry

http://hnn.us/articles/3631.html

dottielou. Michigan and Indiana's governors have backed off their plans to go after public sector unions. Gov Christie has toned down his anti-unions threats. Kasich is having trouble in Ohio. Branstad and the Iowa GOP controlled House will probably not get their union busting plans past the Iowa Democratic Senate.

Disagree about which party is hurt more - coupled with the WI Union Busting,...Repubs have far more to lose - for now.

When did the word "COMPROMISE" get stricken from the Republican Manifesto? Most moderates simply DO NOT get that Boehner gets his knickers in a knot rather than say the word. It no doubt tastes like vinegar coming out of his mouth.

I agree with your larger point that they need to work together; but from my vantage point,...Repubs are not trying very hard,...time will tell.

I agree that both sides need to work together but Draconian cuts are NOT the answer. Every federal cut will result in layoffs and more state budget revenue losses and subsequent cuts. More state budget cuts means layoffs. Every lost job means an increase in unemployment benefits which cost states and federal governments money. Every job lost means lost wages and lost federal and state revenues--the cycle continues to repeat itself. Budget cuts must be done with a scalpel not a hatchet; they must carefully consider the impact on people. The time for budget concern should have been during the good economic times not the times when government spending is necessary to push the economy forward.

Jody and CLara

Thanks for the feedback

Clara

I disagree slightly in that I think the Republicans are willing to compromise on what is cut, but maybe not as much on how much is cut. We are near a debt cliff and huge cuts are needed and then tax code reform is needed to increase revenue streams into the government.

Jody

I will "compromise" with you and say that the while a hatchet is too extreme, conversely a scalpel is too delicate and perhaps a meat cleaver or a bread knife will be used to cut items from the budget and as I said above it is important that both sides prioritize and then compromise on what should be cut, while keeping target amounts to cut in the target.

Remember we are going to go through this again with the 2012 budget and with the debt ceiling bill. It is good that the two sides are learning to work together on spending cuts in the continuing resolution.

I agree that there are probably some waste that could be cut in the military and I agree with your other points as well.

Unfortunately military spending only takes about about 19% of the budget. Entitelment spending (ie social security, medicare, medicaid etc) take up over 60% of the budget. There must be serious long term reforms to these programs as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg

I must

On what do you base the assertion that the American people are looking for the cuts that you mention.

While some of them might be good ideas, you must realize that there is no reasonable person that would be expect them to happen anytime soon

We need to reduce the high pensions and benefits of those military retirees, they've served their purpose and are now a drain on society.

No, don't cut the military. Stop tax cuts for the wealthy!

Oh Bob, stuff it, about gay marriage, abortion, and any other wedge issue you conservatives dream up.

Mind your own business and stay the heck out of other people's lives. What is wrong with you and your ilk, who gets you all wound up? Cant you just carry on without being so judgemental.

ENOUGH!

GMamma, bob and his ilk have no solutions for the deficit and no plans or ideas about job creation so.....always distract with social and very personal issues!

Where are the jobs?

Right your are chilled, deflect, deflect that's all they know, change the topic, insult those that disagree, and never come up with a plan for anything.

Good to see you here today. Peace.

I still don't see some peoples fascination with telling others who they can and can't marry...does gay marriage cause the 50% of 1st marriages and 60% of second marriages between one man and one woman to end in divorce? Nope ...they don't...bible thumping righties crying family values do though...

Can you Spell?

I'm pretty sure that was on purpose. BONER - get it? Of course you don't.

Tammy

Very insightful and so politically aware

Thanks for sharing

Get rid of their benefits and yours are next. It really isn't hard to connect those dots.

Yeah...Let's not forget that unions are the reason we have 8 hour work days and weekends to enjoy with our families.

So then why are the business not creating jobs, especially after getting their tax breaks (Wisconsin)? You probably also believe in trickle down economics, don't you?

News flash Bryan, business is not creating jobs because they don't now what kind of fat cat beaurcratic taxes are coming down the pike with this disaster thing called "affordable healthcare act"..

Here is a question for you my friend....why is more than 1000 exemptions given by the US govt to companies, giving them a pass on healthcare act if it so good for our country...from what I am hearing there is no rime or reason behind how they make the decision to do this...

I think this is LITERALLY a very simple concept -

If the union members must contribute an additional $5,700/member for their 'share' of the deficit - then why isn't EVERY single other Wisconsin individual or business being asked to kick in some $? Yes the union dollars are going directly toward a specific expense; but other 'increases' could be targeted specifically, as well.

This is obviously a Democrat's idea of FAIR; but why is it considered SO outlandish?

Alright, i'll bite since you're so desparate for someone to approve of your witty and timely remarks:

"Like, OMG. Justin Bieber didn't get an award? LOLZ!"

Sorry silver1i to bust your bubble...that one has already been used by the tea party...copy cat...

by the way..the TP sleeping giant will CRUSH your sleeping miget

....that would be the big, fat sleeping giant who has been sucking on the gov't teat for the past 50 years and one of the major reasons the states (and the fed) are in the financial mess in the first place, right?

you pegged it comrade...darn dems and unions are breaking this country..!

Actually democrats and unions MADE this country or at least the middle class of this country. Since the Reagan years the republicans have consistently worked to break unions and cater to the corporations in doing so and the middle class has been steadily reduced each year. The GOP doesn't want to "break" the country just 98% of the citizens.

Or cut their Healthcare for Life. Sounds like Socialism to me.

Sadly, it cutting the salaries or benefits of Congress would not be a drop in the bucket! I think you need to re-take 6th grade math!

We are in a HUGE financial hole... and NOTHING will work unless the REAL expenses of our federal government (social security, medicare, and defense) are all slashed dramatically for the next 40 years! It took 80 years for the communist policies of FDR, Kennedy, Bush 2, Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Truman, Eisenhower, Clinton, Obama, Carter, Ford, and more to create this mess with "feel good" liberal dogma... it will take a few decades of pain that NO ONE will enjoy to fix this mess!