Feisty, don't forget - Lawrence O'Donnell will be on Meet The Press tomorrow AM. How I love these no nonsense hosts such as Lawrence, Rachel, etc. We become less and less of a country I feel whenever I turn on the tv and see hosts and guests anti-union. It breaks my heart. I still remember when the media wouldn't support the auto industry when they needed help. The media. They are now rich, fat cats who have become part of the problem. Inside the beltway fraternity. Never a thought about the working class or the poor. Jonathan Alter, Eugene Robinson, Bob Herbert are the exceptions, along with a few others, including Think Progress.

And Lawrence. He may get paid well, but he has a heart and a soul and is not one to jump on board the latest GOP manipulated talking point. The working people are always the first to feel the pain. Always. And when I see people on tv criticizing them as though it is their fault for the economic pain we're in, it kills me. Because people actually believe it. Especially those in the media. When will they realize the workers yet again are being exploited? I'm just thrilled to see the country standing with these protestors. The GOP exploit them because they vote Democrat. It's always been that way.

I have throughout my life known many people who were in unions. They were just people hard at work trying to support their families. Their labor was hard work, both in good weather and bad. No complaints. They just got up before dawn and were out there, day after day, year after year, doing the job they were hired to do. And did it with pride. No one was rich, no one had summer vacation homes, no one owned fur coats. And when a family had a tragedy or needed help, it was neighborhood friends who were in unions who were the first to knock on your door to see if you needed anything. Always. Always. Always.

As far as having a drink or two on a Friday evening, you oughta see the bars around here on Friday nites. Filled to capacity. It's been a long hard winter and nothing wrong with sitting around, having a few while listening to some great music.

It's the best part of the weekend, because it's the beginning of the weekend. Everybody is happy and friendly. So Cheers!

Hi Pat!

Happy Saturday to you! The dirty little secret that the Teapublicans don't want to mention is that, it is the unions who built the middle class!

Destruction of the middle class is one of the main objectives of the right wing!

And you know how I LOVE me some Lawrence! ;o) I will be tuning in tomorrow to catch him on MTP!

It is funny how such an ignorant poster can rail against folks talking about going to an imaginary hang out to be sociable. Maybe he is just jealous that he was not specifically invited?? LOL

Maybe you got collapsed by the community, Steve, because YOU HAVE NOTHING NICE TO SAY and NO ONE WANTS TO LISTEN TO YOU?

Happy Saturday to you as wel B. Honest! Good to see you!

Oh. B Honest..

It is funny how such an ignorant poster can rail against folks talking about going to an imaginary hang out to be sociable.

There it is. in a Nutshell. The Liberals live in an Imaginary World, and even Create Imaginary Hangouts..........

B Honest. you are seeing the Light.. Thanks for Admitting what those of us on the Right already knew

Imaginary world? You mean like the Obama=Hitler/Muslim/Communist/Birth Certificate/grandma death panels/don't take away my guns/ world?

Yeah, you on the right see the light alright.

I've always thought that Dew Drop Inn BS was childish and stupid. Yes you Liberals do live in an imaginary world. That is a perfect discription of Liberalism today.

B. Honest,

Where have you been? I've missed you.

Just last week I was thinking how the opportunity to have a good discussion on First Read has eroded into plain ugliness. I actually thought, "Where's B. Honest?" and here you are. I hope all is okay with you.

Ha.. Cowards................. what you dont like it when the Sloppy Drunk is called out.

Steve-505729 Comment collapsed by the community

Look all one has to do is look at the nasty one Inviting her Drunk Friends to Head on over to the ...

Say it with me........................ The Dew Drop Inn................ then they come and collaspes posts.

Steve-505729 Comment collapsed by the community

OH. yes the TOP DRUNK speaks up....

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#6.1 - Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:06 PM PST

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#3.3 - Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:54 AM PST

Pat Boston,

We all form our opinions from experience. My experience with unions is very different from yours. I don’t know what industry the union people you’ve known were in, but I grew up in a union family – concrete, cement finishers, masons, and steel workers. Their labor was hard. They’d show up at the job site on a rainy day and stand around for an hour. They knew if they were there for an hour, they’d get paid for eight. That was the union rule.

One of my uncles moved out of state and got a non-union construction job. He was appalled when he found out if he worked 2 hours, he only got paid 2 hours. He quickly quit finishing and found something else to do.

Where I grew up, to get into the union you had to know someone who could get you in, and getting a card usually required a handful of cash. If you didn’t have the cash, you didn’t get to work. I had family members who wanted to work and get paid for the work that they did. But getting paid for not working didn’t feel right for some of them, and others felt entitled and laughed all the way to the bank.

For benefits, they got insurance depending on their hours, so if a layoff lasted longer, their families went uninsured. There was a time when the Local had no work. The Local in the next town needed workers, but members of Local 123 couldn’t cross over for jobs through Local 456 without being told repercussions would result. So, they wound up not working, and struggling, in the name of union loyalty.

Unions had their place long ago when there were sweatshop conditions and wages. We are thankful to the formation of unions to improve those conditions and set standards for wages. Since then, though, they’ve morphed into corrupt and powerful mobs, squandering workers dues, providing questionable benefits and warping their members into entitlement mindsets. I feel this way based on my experience. Your experience was different.

I will gladly pay taxes to pay the salaries of public employees and if they want to be in a union, fine. I do not want to pay for their entire retirement or their political donations.

As far as political activity goes, can you imagine how you would feel if your tax dollars went to union dues and then went to fund the Republican party? Do you see where the other side might be coming from?

My Dad was a member and later president of the Millman's Local, and his major complaint was that the business owners actually had too much say in what happened within the Union. When he was president he had, many times, business owners trying to bribe him to make rules that THEY liked, not what the Members liked. This was a large portion of the Union Busting at the time, do it from inside, make people distrust their own unions and lo and behold, union membership started falling again. Just exactly what the Business owners wanted. Too many of the Union officers were sons of business owners and they ended up ganging together and working against the very people that they were supposed to be on the side of. Sort of like the GOP today. In many areas the local mafias used the unions as well, the workers were too busy to keep real tabs on the leadership, and so they got screwed, not only by the businesses that they worked for, but by the union leaders themselves. It was all a part and parcel of those with the money working to keep the poor working people poor. I have seen it many times myself, and it has not changed much. When unions were run by the workers themselves, not giving it to The Ruling Class, the unions did great things for this Nation and it's workers, and, indeed, there are STILL some very good, diligent, honest and fair Unions out there who are represented by the workers. But it is just like the Republican Party these days, the leadership is bought and paid for by the rich and ultra rich to make the rules and laws THEIR way, so that the Already-Too-Obscenely-Rich-To-Fail class gets tax breaks without needing to guarantee that they will produce jobs, get special allowances on the laws against environmental destruction, and never go to jail when they do break the laws, just a slap on the wrist and a small fine.

We need to get back to Honest and Verifiable representation in both Government AND unions because the 'little' people are dying just trying to make ends meet, while the rich get taxed less for doing less and hoard their money, spending it on politicians who will change the laws in their favor and on the media to tell the public what to think, as long as it is good for the rich.

Americans need to WAKE UP, we are all one people: AMERICANS! The Laws and Regulations need to be fair to and for ALL of us, and for way too long they have been skewed towards those who have MUCH more than they need all the while taking more and More and MORE from those who do not have enough as it is. It is no wonder that the workers here in Wisconsin are protesting, they have BEEN giving, yet Pinkerton Walker went and gave a major tax break to corporations and now, because of that, he Claims that all of this is about Money, that we are Broke. If we are broke, then why in the world did he GIVE AWAY the tax breaks, why did he decrease income for the state??

Good to see you too Candice, I had a rough time of it over the winter, but am doing better now. One disagreement I have with what you said tho: The money that goes for political activities comes from the worker's pocket, NOT from the State coffers, once it is paid to the Worker it is NO Longer "Taxpayer" money, it is the worker's to do with as they like, and if they are supporting their Union, then you nor I have any thing to say about it. The pensions that teachers and other State workers get is in lieu of higher wages, which was negotiated in good faith between the Worker's Unions and the State: That is a contract, for the State to unilaterally disown that contract is as illegal as it would be for you to stop paying on your mortgage just because you decided that you no longer wanted to outlay that amount of money anymore. Pinkerton Walker is just Union Busting, like the Pinkerton Thugs back in the '30s, paid for by Koch Industries to do just that. It is all a matter of trying to turn the middle class workers into slaves for the business class...Again!

Hey, B. Honest. Sorry to hear you’ve had a hard time. You make a good point about once the money is paid to the worker, they can do with it what they want. I agree. But union dues are directly deducted from paychecks in Wisconsin and other states. The dues are forwarded to the union. The dues should go to fund the pension plans and for insurance premiums for the workers. However, a good chunk of that money goes to politics. The union member does not get to specify which political party it goes to. I’ll give you that probably the majority of union members support the Democrats. Not all public employees are Democrats. I know union members who aren't. What about them? The dues they are forced to pay go to politics they don’t support. I ask them, how is that right and fair? They say that’s just the way it is.

Maybe the union members should have a say in how their union dues are spent. I don't think they do.

So, we both have experienced the corruption in the union system but in different ways. You’re right, we need to get back to honest and verifiable representation, and laws and regulations need to be fair for everyone. They don’t represent the little guy so much anymore. In fact, I think they hinder individual success. The union bosses (as well as their private sector counterparts) are living high. Politicians make decisions under pressure, for money and not necessarily for right reasons.

We have plenty of agencies to regulate working conditions. Honor current contracts. But in the future, increase pay a bit and have members take on more ownership of their retirement plans before unfunded pension liabilities take everybody down. Set scales for pay and provide arbitrators for disputes.

Maybe the unions in their current form should be busted…..and then re-group and start over from scratch.

Candace, I disagree with your take on unions.

I remember going to a funeral for an EMT who was killed in a helicopter crash. It was so moving to see his brethren (and sisters) entering the auditorium accompanied by bag pipers. It made me realize that certain jobs require a solidarity that goes beyond participating in the office pool. These jobs aren't "professions" in the academic sense of the word, and they don't have the same kind of structure that lawyers and doctors have, in the form of professional organizations, to create codes of ethics for themselves and advocate for their interests through the AMA or the Bar, etc. They have a Union, instead.

Police, firefighters and other public servants regularly put their lives on the line for our community. Yes, they get a paycheck and benefits, but shouldn't they also have a modicum of power over their working conditions? I think part of the anger over Walker's attacks on the teachers unions is that it attacks the professionalism of these folks, who really are a band of brothers and sisters, in that their jobs require a group effort that goes beyond punching a time clock.

Furthermore, to address your issue regarding union dues going to support political parties, I would say, that in a free market of ideas, if Republicans want Union support, they should compete with the Democratic Party for those dollars, just as they compete for votes. Unions exist to advocate for their workers, and if they choose to support Democrats, it's because those Democrats are working in the interests of those workers. It's hypocritical of Republicans, who are always talking about the restorative powers of the market place, to try and shut down unions, instead of competing with Democrats for union support.

In your post you reference public sector workers needing to pay more towards their own retirement, etc. it was my understanding the workers in WI were already agreeing to that concession. The sticking point was giving up the right to negotiate collectively. It's pretty clear to me the effort to bust the Union is not about how much it costs the taxpayers, but about breaking the ability of Unions to participate in the political process on par with the corporate special interests, who mostly finance the Right.

Another point to remember is that not ALL unions support the Democrats. Look at the Police and Firefighters in Wisconsin, they supported the Repubs this time around. Now that the Gov that they helped get elected is trying to destroy Unions in general, they are opposed to him.

It is just like the public, taxpayers on both sides and the middle pay their taxes, yet they end up being often 'represented' by someone of another party than themselves.

Amy,

It wasn’t organized labor or union dues that caused the brothers and sisters to attend the funeral of the EMT. More likely it was the deep respect and cohesiveness that naturally occurs when you have a group working together, especially in dangerous jobs. Look at our armed services. The men and women that serve together form a special bond deeper than most of us can probably imagine. They don’t have a negotiated contract that says they have to care about each other and respect each other. It just happens. There are probably people you would stand by and up for because of your natural compassion, not because a union tells you to.

I do consider police and fire and EMT’s professions. I have greater issues with teachers unions and trade unions, Amy. I think it would be great if the unions acted more like professional organizations --setting standards and ethics, and providing representation in a dispute. Instead the unions in many cases have gotten out of hand, warped by power, immersed in corruption and entitlement. Quite often they do more damage than good to everybody. In my experience.

I believe the issue behind collective bargaining is to restructure for the future. Concessions were made now, but if reforms aren't made for the future, we'll be going through all of this again in two years. Too often problems are temporarily resolved only to pop up again, some times worse, later on.

Amy,

if Republicans want Union support, they should compete with the Democratic Party for those dollars, just as they compete for votes. Unions exist to advocate for their workers, and if they choose to support Democrats, it's because those Democrats are working in the interests of those workers.

How would Republicans politicians compete for union support? Obviously it would be to offer more benefits, better wages, better and more whatever.

How about offering free health care to teachers who are already re-tired! (Sorry MPS has already done that, back in the 70's. Milwaukee Public Schools now have an un-funded liability of $4.9 billion.) How about free Viagra added to the health care plan? (Been done at the added expense of millions to the state.) How about non-fiscal benefits such as making it impermissible to use student test scores in determining teacher pay? (Been done and btw- everything is fiscal - Wisconsin is ineligible for $254 million in new federal education funds)

Who pays for all that? Tax payers. The people of Wisconsin.

Whose interests are the politicians representing in your scenario, Amy? The people, the ones who have to pay, or the unions? Obviously you are suggesting the unions. This is why FDR, the liberal, the progressive stated that public unions are unthinkable and intolerant. It puts the unions before the people they are supposed to serve.

"Unions exists to advocate for their workers" and politicians are supposed to represent the people. When this doesn't happen, this is the reason states get in the trouble they are today.

Thank you Amy for perfectly illuminating the problem with public unions.

About dues.

The liberals are always pointing out Target, or some business that offends their political beliefs. The liberals call for protests or boycotts or whatever.

Fine, free country - except when it comes to tax payers.

Can a tax payers refuse to support public unions that send 91% of their money to the Dems. Nope. The majority of the people of Wisconsin now support Republicans, yet their money to teachers is confiscated against their free will from the teachers, against their free will and given to the Dems.

Can you imagine if that money was going to Koch, the Republicans?

Yea, liberals believe in democracy and free will - until it doesn't suit their interest. Hypocrites.

Amy,

I don't want the Republican Party to compete for union support. Can you imagine two parties of salivating politicians involved in the corruption and vote buying (bribery) that goes on?

Instead, I want workers to have the ability to compete for positions, pay and benefits. I want good workers to be well compensated, and the lackluster workers to try harder. I do believe in the free market system - because it works. The unions are holding the good workers down, and pacifying the poor ones, while bankrupting the rest of us or certainly not garnering support. There's a reason unions only represent 12% of the work force. The other 88% in the private sector have greater control over their destinies and I think that's a good thing.

The federal agencies will make sure their working conditions are safe. Revamped unions or professional organizations can set standards and pay scales and come to the aid of workers who need them.

I guess I believe individuality can achieve greater success. The way things are now - it isn't working. People are getting tired of it. Something has to give.

Those who advocate the demise of unions are advocating for the loss of employee rights in the work place. Once unions are gone, every other worker's wages and benefits are the next target. Why else would Koch Industries be so willing to spend millions to essentially starve unions to death--without unions, Koch Industries will determine pay and benefits because there's no competition; big business will simply coordinate what they'll pay and provide with all their rich friends.

Over the last 30 years since Reagan and the GOP began their anti-union attacks, the declining income in the middle class runs parallel with the decline of private sector unions. I would suggest those who resent unions and their efforts to protect and get the best deal possible for workers do some historical reading about why and how unions were started, about the blood shed in the fight for worker rights. To simply buy the GOPTP conservative talking points and oppose unions based on those views is a disservice to those doing it, their children and their grandchildren.

I know conservatives do not want to listen or believe it but this is not a left or right political fight, it is a fight for EVERY worker's future regardless of who they vote for or against.

Candice, Bartlett, IL,

I am just astonished at your incredible naivete.

It’s about the right to collective bargaining rights and union busting. Collective bargaining has everything to do with fair wages which allows the American dream for the middle class; such as a home, a car, and a decent living. Collective bargaining also allows for safe working condition without the fear of of being fired, maimed, or killed.

Governor Walker is doing the work of the extreme right wing; especially the Koch Brother who fund most anti-government organizations such as Karl Rove's American Crosswords, American for Prosperity, the Tea Party and the list goes on and on.

Karl Rove confirmed it on Fox News. With Greta Van Sustern.

Rove: "Every one of those 600,000 people had several hundred dollars worth of union dues going into the political coffers of their union to spend on politics. So yeah, you keep having a couple hundred thousand people each year. If a half a million people leave the labor union movement every year, pretty soon you start having a crimp in the political budget of these unions, it has a direct effect on the Presidential elections."

Out of the mouth of the man himself. As Ed says, that might be the most honest thing he's ever said.

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/ed-schultz-outlines-fox-media-strategy-agai

Before you bring up Soros compare the differences and bear in mine the unions have been reduced as Karl Rove pointed out in his above statement. And it's the right's attempt to destroy them if they can.

According to federal lobbying reports, Koch Industries’ top issues include energy, environmental, tax and homeland security policies. The Open Society Policy Center has mainly lobbied on issues relating to foreign relations, civil rights, and law enforcement policy. The graph below outlines these organizations lobbying history since 1998 (click on graph for full size):

The Koch brothers’ company, Koch Industries, has been a big player in both campaign donations and lobbying. Koch Industries currently leads the oil and gas industry as the top contributor to federal candidates and parties, and is the fifth highest lobbying spender in the industry this year.

VERDICT: When it comes to to the combination of institutional lobbying, 527 group donations and PAC expenditures, Koch Industries far out-spends Soros’ hedge fund and think tank, $57.4 million to $12.8 million. Most of this money is attributable to lobbying expenditures.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/09/opensecrets-battle---koch-brothers.html

In other words the Koch brothers are anti- government, self, anti-climate and don’t mind killing people and the planet

Citizens United:

So-called 527 groups cannot directly donate to politicians' campaigns, but they can air advertisements and make other expenditures that tout candidates' stances on issues. Maybe you enjoy outdise influences running America such as the Germans now do with the NYE?

SO BE IT!!

However, the ground zero in Wisconsin is spreading like wildfire . polls are showing the mandate Walker had is giving the people of Wisconsin and America buyers remorse for him and the GOP/Tea Party.

Fox and the right can lie, twist and do whatever but the truth is this union bashing is a perpetrated on lies.

bob-1805084

About dues.

The liberals are always pointing out Target, or some business that offends their political beliefs. The liberals call for protests or boycotts or whatever.

Fine, free country - except when it comes to tax payers.

Can a tax payers refuse to support public unions that send 91% of their money to the Dems.

SEE bob:

The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions

Governor Walker has gotten away with this false narrative because journalists have failed to look closely at how employee pension plans work and have simply accepted the Governor’s word for it.

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

Nope. The majority of the people of Wisconsin now support Republicans, yet their money to teachers is confiscated against their free will from the teachers, against their free will and given to the Dems.

Even conservative polls suggest a majority in Wisconsin is opposed to Walker's attempt to eliminate collective bargaining.

54% of the respondents to Morris' poll said they were opposed to eliminating collective bargaining. Just 41% said they favored it.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/another-day-another-conservative-poll-has-bad-news-for-scott-walker.php

Bob; Dick Morris is an analyst on FEAR CHANNEL aka FOX NEWS.

Poll: Americans favor union bargaining rights
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm



Fox Reverses Poll Results To Falsely Claim Most Americans Favor Ending Collective Bargaining
http://current.com/news/93019180_fox-reverses-poll-results-to-falsely-claim-most-americans-favor-ending-collective-bargaining.htm

SEE again bob; FOX LIES. They were forced to correct that one lie.
One down and many others to be corrected.

I think you should change your supposition.

As I just mentioned above, I hardly think you need drinking encouragemen, Bob; but if you really wanted to tie one on, you could turn on Faux 'News' and take a shot every time the tag 'fair and balanced' appeared or was spoken. I don't think you'd make it through a single segment without passing out; which, come to think of it, explains SO much - you are possibly already playing THAT game 24/7.

Bob..............

You Slipped up. you should have Mentioned Faux news too.........

These Angry Liberals are so pissed off There Dream of a Liberal Govt giving them everything they Want and need in there life is Slipping away.. Poor Clara.

Poor Steve, It must be so sad to be you. Such anger, hate and rage. Is this your only outlet? Do you really come to these sites just to pick fights? Name calling is so childish and you are not hurting anyone but yourself and you make yourself look bad.

Bob-1887910

A "Godwin's law" drinking contest:

Take a big gulp every time an MSNBC-posting moonbat zombie calls Republicans "Nazis" ...

Or mentions the "Koch Brothers", or "tax cuts for the rich".....

Hey, Booby trap looks like Clara just boxed you. After the first time that 'fair and balanced' tag appears, you should be stumbling.

The FOX LIES will get you every time.

Clara and Bevewly,

I know you two are in a constant state of confusion, but you may have Bob confused with bob.

Bob is a smart guy, but he is not the guy that mocked your guys imaginary friends with his imaginary friend's barf-off. Bob is not the bob that has to read Bev's comical comments in Elmer Fudd's voice to make it through the whole post.

Thought you might want to know.

Bob,

Enjoy your comments.

1887 Bob hereby thanks 1805 Bob for the kudos...

It is OK to confuse the goofball liberals... but Bob, if a six figure check from the Koch Brothers accidentally arrives to you , please forward it to the correct Bob.......

Will do.

Tell Mom hi.

Freakin Nuts,

So who knows which military bases we should close?? You?? First you need to consult with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and get their reasoning, then try talking to the State Department, and maybe the intelligence community.

I think there is a reason for each base being where it is, and don't believe a layman should be entrusted with the decisions of where to cut the military.

Nice try, but you just don't have the expertise to analyze the overall impact of such actions.

Edward,

As Speaker Boehner says: “were broke”.

We do not need 700 military bases. On top of the cost of just maintaining and staffing all these bases we pay billions to the countries in which they are located for the right to have them there.

In addition there are 300 embassies and consulates around the world? Why? At what cost? There are 8 in France alone. France is about the size of Texas, so why 8?

This does not appear to be on the “table” even for discussion by the JCS. So don’t we deserve a solid reason why they are all needed?

Dennis,

Yes, a good reason for the existence of each base would be worthwhile to know. The military probably has many areas that could be cut. I'm just saying, that, when you start to look at all the ramifications of these decisions, the long range effect might not be what you expect. I am not qualified to make these decisions. They are there for a reason, I just can't give you the reason, as I am not qualified to do so.

Tom,

Steve's contribution to this site is that he points out who the boneheads really are.

His posts slowly bring to light who is here just to "stir the pot" and not to contribute in any way to the discussion at hand.

Edward, Do you mean that Steve is a Democratic plant to make Republicans look foolish?

You BETCHA Tom! ;o)

Hiya my good friend Leon! So GOOD to see you!

I posted this yesteday - don't know if you saw it...

Sadly, I'm afraid by the time they finally 'get it', it's going to be too late!

First they came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists but I was not one of them, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews but I was not Jewish so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemoeller

Great quote Feisty, I has used it for years.

Did it ever occurr to you that the "they" who came to take away was the all powerful national government not the opposition?

Did it ever occurr to you that the:

"they" - believed in big government, believed in re-distribution and the end to class distinction

"they" - were anti-capitalism, anti-free markets

"they" - believed in forcing national health care

"they" - were anti-church (even nativity scenes)

"they" - believed nutrition was not a private matter / anti-family (decisions on what to feed your child?)

"they" - were for abortion, for gun control

"they" - believed in heavily taxing inheritance

What does the "they" sound more like - Obama or the opposition?

Who is the federal / national power instituting / protecting all of the above - Obama or the opposition?

Yea Feisty, we remember ........ that's why we come here every day.

Bobby... Bobby... Bobby... Yes that's why WE come here everday as well!

I'm going out to dinner (to collect on that bet I won earlier in the week ;o)

In the meantime, in case you haven't seen this from the First Thoughts thread, my good friend JohnB has responded to your BS! Not like you would intentionally overlook it or anything! lol

You should pour yourself a Scotch first - might take some of the 'sting' out of it!

SHOUT OUT TO JOHN,B Des Moines!

John B, Des Moines, IA

Bob, bob, bob, where do I start?

"With regards to the Nazi, the were anything but believers in free enterprise, free market capitalism. They believed in state cronyism and their relationship with Krupp and Rheinmetall where exactly the same as Obama's with GE.

Asinine to suggest they were the "biggest capitalist around."

Yet somehow Volkswagen managed to get its start as a private company as Nazism arose. Mercedes built the cars and trucks that carried the Third Reich without being nationalized. Siemens Corporation contracted to build the ovens at Auschwitz. Auto Union managed to survive as a privately held company, to be renamed Audi at a later date.

No less a Fascist than Benito Mussolini said "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

As far as state cronyism is concerned you'll do a lot better connecting Scott Walker with the Koch brothers, Dick Cheney and the corporate lobbyists who wrote the Bush Administration's energy policy in secret, and anonymous funding of the Republican Party by the US Chamber of Commerce.

"The NAZI (National Socialist German Workers Party)"

Oh, WORD GAMES!! Sorry, "Socialist" was just a word in their name, with as much application as saying Republicans must be Communists just like the People's Republic of China. Socialists were actively rounded up and killed or sent to the concentration camps.

" were for national health care,"

Germany had national health care since 1871…Hitler had nothing to do with it.

" were anti-capitalism,"

Addressed above. Simply a lie.

" believed in ending class distinction,"

No, he believed that his crazy focus on the "Aryan race" transcended class distinction, an entirely different thing.

" believed in gun control,"

Like every totalitarian regime.

" believed in abortion,"

For purposes of "racial hygiene", yet another aspect of their Social Darwinist tendencies

" believed in heavily taxing inheritance,"

And freely granted exemptions for favored individuals…another expression of their crony capitalism.

" were anti-church (including nativity scenes too),"

That's just wrong.

But all that I heard had the effect of arousing the strongest antagonism in me. Everything was disparaged--the nation, because it was held to be an invention of the 'capitalist' class (how often I had to listen to that phrase!); the Fatherland, because it was held to be an instrument in the hands of the bourgeoisie for the exploitation of' the working masses; the authority of the law, because that was a means of holding down the proletariat; religion, as a means of doping the people, so as to exploit them afterwards; morality, as a badge of stupid and sheepish docility. There was nothing that they did not drag in the mud.

- Adolf Hitler, on listening to Social Democrats, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgment of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie.

- Adolf Hitler, speech to members of the Nazi Party on the Nazi-Vatican Concordant, July 22, 1933

" pushed for organic food control - that nutrition is not a private matter, Himmler was a certified animal rights activist, they were anti-smoking, ........"

Now you're just grasping at straws.

"To any independents out there, does the above sound like Obama's agenda, or the Tea Party?"

Asked and answered.

"Also for any independents - read "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg. It's all perfectly laid out."

There's your basic problem. Jonah Goldberg is a hack and a liar who's been disproven extensively. http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2008/01/liberal-fascism-response.html

Hi Leon, great to see you post and well said to boot.

Hope you are well or at least feeling better. Take care and don't be a stranger.

Feisty,

Jonah Goldberg referred to Olbermann as "MSNBC's answer to a question no one asked." John B's replies are the FR equivalent. Goldberg is the author of a New York Times #1 Best Seller, a syndicated columnist, editor-at-large for National Review Online ....... appears on Good Morning America, Nightline, Hardball, ........... and John B.'s rebuttal is some blogger named Dave. Pretty funny.

I like John, he tries. I can say 2 + 2 = 4 and John B. basically says but 4 = 5.

Anyway ....

1. The first thing he uses as a retort to Nazis being anti-capitalist is Volkswagen saying that they were a private company that managed to get its start as Nazism arose. True. (2 +2 = 4) But socialism / anti-capitalism is not necessarily ownership, it also control.

Hitler saw the Volkswagen as a political tool to advance his agenda and popularity. The "People's Car."

Hitler gave the order 1937 to the German Labor Front to use all means to produce it. He talked to Dr. Porsche, the most famous automotive engineer, about carrying it out. The "Society for the Preparation of the German Volkswagen" was founded which determined the take up of factories, methods and distribution. Sounds a little like Obama, GM and the Volt, huh.

The war came along and Hitler converted everything over to war production. Porsche worked on the Panzer VI Tiger SD.KFZ. 181 for example as well as the SD.KFZ.184 Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyer, the .182 Tiger II, etc.

Horrible and pathetic example by John. Volkswagens came out for the people AFTER the war and After Hitler bit the glass pill and blew his brains out.

2. In case John doesn't know it, you may want to tell him that Mussolini WAS the father of Fascism. Merger of "state and corporate power."? Yea, exactly like Obama and GE, Obama and GM.

3. Cronyism/Walker, Koch blah, blah, blah.......not worthy of a response.

4. National Socialist German Workers Party? John's reply - word games. Well the words are the words and Hitler played the same word games Obama does. Obama has already sold the unions out by forcing HCR even they can't afford. He buys them off with waivers, but after the next election and the unions serve no more benefit to him, the unions waivers go away and the unions are in the same boat as everyone else.

John says that socialists were rounded up and killed or sent to concentration camps. Nope. He is confused with the rival communists. In all candor though, like any good socialist or communist or progressive - any opposition was persecuted.

Oh yea, your version looked funny. "they" never came for the socialist. Liberal invention - check Wiki.

5. Health care since 1871? Sounds about right - Bismarck. Hitler was a vegetarian, Hess championed homeopathy and herbal remedies. Their public health drives foreshadowed today's crusades - they would be proud of Michelle. Seems human ashes are even an amazing fertilizer.

6. Believed in ending class distinction? John confuses race with class. (They were overt racist which Obama doesn't appear to be.) But again class not race. John loses another.

7. Gun control? John agrees that the left's belief is the same as "every totalitarian regime."

8. Abortion? John agrees with a distinction that is not a difference. (BTW - Goldberg has a great chapter on it - The Eugenic Ghost in the Fascist Machine that addresses the liberal origins with abortion.)

9. Heavily taxing inheritance? John cops cronyism/favored individuals - Obama's appointees not paying taxes? Bailouts to GE when they make $1,56 billion. $7,500 tax payer rebates to buy a government motors Volt. Yea John, Obama and Hitler evidently in agreement again.

10. Anti- church? This evolved. Hitler was a politician. Quotes from 1933 are irrelevant. In the end, they formulated a thirty-point program for the "National Reich Church" which claimed exclusive right and control over all Churches; determined to exterminate foreign Christain faiths, demanded cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible, and ordered the clearing away of all Crucifixes, Bibles, pictures of Saints. On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the altar a sword.

Over 6,000 clergy were imprisoned in Germany with many being executed. In occupied areas it was worse. The Nazis forbid religious youth movements, parish meetings and church asserts were taken. Church schools were closed. Monks, nuns etc were deported of forced to renounce their vows.

Anyway, if you see John at the Dew Drop, tell him I said Hi and ask you to remind him that he's "not very good at this."

I've got to give you credit Bobby - that is some of the finest 'cherry pickin' I have seen in quite some time!

'Not worthy of a response' - 'irrelevant' & the National Review is the best you could come up with for a rebuttal! LMFAO!

Care to try again? You'll never leave 'rookie' status if that's the best you can do! ;o)

Who the hell are you to decide who's a rookie or who's well-educated. I don't think personal insults are necessary. They add nothing to the conversation.

Who the hell are you to decide

So that's your idea of civil discourse? Well... OKAY then! lol

That sure added a lot to the 'conversation'!

As for my comment on education - google State Academic Standings and get back to me hon!

You'll notice that the reddest of RED states consistently rank at the BOTTOM! and it's not by accident!

Man, Feisty, the "teabaggers" are cranky today. lisa: Really? "who the hell are you"....that's the best you can do? I think we are all capable of deciding what we want to post without your help. And yes, there are several people who give doubt about how educated they are simply because they cannot write. Now, did you have a comment on the issue at hand...like who might run?

Feisty,

Cherry pickin? I lined out everything he said, numbered it and rebutted it. A few were sloppy and could be challenged by someone who was intelligent and knew what/how to argue, but you guys can't.

#3. ? Not worthy of a response? I didn't say anything about Walker, Cheney, Koch blah, blah. What does the Governor of Wisconsin have to with the Nazis social agenda? Nice attempt to obfuscate and change the discussion, though.

Lisa,

I see you have met the daughter of delusion, newday is her sister of sanctimony.

Ever heard the expression two fries short of a happy meal?

Well you found the two fries, in the bottom of the empty bag.

Man, Feisty, the "teabaggers" are cranky today. lisa: Really? "who the hell are you"....that's the best you can do?'

No kidding NND! Come to think of it, if this is the 'best' they have to offer, I would be cranky too!

See above for examples... at least we know what bobby's having for dinner tonight! lol

Poor bobby is not worth reading, so I don't. He is simply after attention, and since he is an example of those who cannot write, I prefer to not waste time on him.

YAWN,

YAWN..

and YAWN.. Seems like Little ole me Destroyed all these Liberals here all by myself I proved what Hypocrits they are. and then Caught them Admitting they live in a Fantasy World......... Its something we already knew. ..

SO YAWN. YAWN YAWN

The only thing Steve destroyed is any bit of credibility that he Might have had! Sad really, that someone can be that accurate in shooting their own feet!

Whats even Better Tom.

Is that you seem to be Arguing with someone that you claim to be an Idiot, I guess that says more about you then me? Keep coming back Snivler. We understand that you cant Grasp the Fact that you have been Owned. But again Post up another one Please.

The Real Question is . Have you No Brain. Since i know you can't answer this Question Correctly I will answer it for you. . No you have no brain

lol

Steve-505729 Comment collapsed by the community

OH. Yea. I forgot ..................... YAWN YAWN YAWN

Mixed Bag, I didn't see Lawrence's interview with Ann Coulter. I don't like her, never have and have zero interest in what she has to say. It's generally what I do when I see someone on tv I'm not interested in listening to. I go elsewhere. There are many so-called Democrats/progressives I don't like. I turn them off as well.

This doesn't change my opinion of Lawrence one iota just because he had Ann Coulter on. I don't feel the need to like or agree with everything he or one of his guests have so say. I have never agreed with anyone on this earth 100%. But I do love Lawrence's work overall. He's an interesting person actually. Very smart man. Listening to him is like sitting down and reading a history book.

I am sorry to see two of my favorite hosts will be going against each other soon, but it won't pose a problem for me. Not with today's technology. I'm just thrilled we will have them both. The more the better.

I'm in the middle of reading the history of NYC from its beginning in the 1600's. It's a historical fiction story, but it gives you NYC's complete history, and it's fascinating. I'm on the 4th or is it 5th(?)book, (I've lost count), with one more to go after I finish the one I'm reading now. Right now the Civil War is about to end and plans are in the works to bring the railroad east to west.

These books have covered the settling of the Dutch in NY, the shipbuilding, the fur trading, the Revolutionary War and all the main characters who fought in NYC with Generals Washington & Howe & Clinton, Fraunces Tavern, the Indian Wars, the War of 1812; there's Vanderbelt and Astor, (and of course THE Mrs. Astor I'm sure will show up eventually), Fifth Avenue and the mansions, Bowling Green, Gramercy Park, Irving Washington, Aaron Burr, the many fires that did a number on NYC throughout the years; the history of Trinity Church and St. Paul's Cathedral; the Irish immigrants, Tammany Hall, the draft riots, the founding of Central Park, Harlem, NY Times, etc.

I haven't come across the building of the Brooklyn Bridge in the story as yet, so I hope the author covers that in detail. It was a dangerous job with many deaths. I imagine he'll cover as well the sinking of the Titanic. I remember taking a boat ride around Manhattan and the exact spot was pointed out as to where the Titanic was supposed to dock.

I believe the book ends in 1930 and my guess is it ends with the building of the Empire State Building, which I believe began in 1929 and took a year to build. So that's my guess is this is how the author ends this incredible story he wrote.

The beginning in 1600's with Indians, trees and hills and nothing else and ends with the building of the Empire State Bldg. I'm assuming. NYC offers these wonderful walking tours so I think the next time I go, I'm going to do a Revolutionary War tour or "Dutch settling" tour, if it exists.

Great epic story of NYC. My Kind of Town.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if Yankee Stadium makes an appearance in the book. Probably. The author doesn't seem to have left anything out thus far. Including when gaslights made their appearance in NYC. The religious of the day didn't want them because they were afraid these lights would lead to no good with people staying out late into the night. LoL.

Pat: so glad to see you posting again, as always, you raise the level of discourse, and on this particular thread, that discourse needs improvement. Hope to read more from you.

newdayDAWNING10: It's always nice to see you as well my friend. I'll pop in and out occasionally. First Read had become too time consuming for me. The internets as a whole did actually. It was time to shut down the computer and move on for a bit, at least until 2012 when the presidential campaign heats up.

Spring. Baseball. A trip this summer to the National Parks. Forget Ann Coulter and the level of discourse here. There are other things in life more important than arguing with people who believe we, as communists and pro-union, caused the economic trouble we're in.

They're going after the wrong people. As usual.

The GOP. It's just not for me. Never was. Never will be.

Oh, Pat, I envy you that trip. I do hope that you enjoy it and come back with many stories for us. Enjoy your baseball season, and many peaceful summer days! But, I do look forward to reading what you have to say. You are sorely missed.

Amy,

"When the economy improves, I think they should have the right to negotiate for improved benefits."

That's exactly the point. If the collective bargaining system doesn't change, sacrifices will be made now, and when they think they are able to - the unions will try to suck up any excess through bargaining. The next rough patch in the economy and we'll be going through this all over again.

The thing is, everyone has lost sight of the fact that the money belongs to the taxpayer. If there's a surplus, it should be held for "rainy days," or returned to the rightful owner - the taxpayer. Which will then go back into the economy. Which will then generate more revenue and everyone will benefit - not just the teachers or public employees. Programs for kids. Parks. Roads. The homeless. The poor.

I'm not talking about the firefighters or police. You and I agree on that. Public employees also include the clerks, administrators, office people. The people at the DMV, in the Social Security Office and various agencies. Teachers, too. These people are replaceable and interchangeable. (Especially with 12 million looking for work). But with union influence you can't get rid of them if they don't perform. So we get stuck with many state employees coasting through their jobs because they can. Not all, I know and probably not most, but there are plenty that take advantage of their union-secured security.

Government will never be run like a business, unfortunately. But it should be run like a not-for-profit - where there are laws and oversight about fiduciary responsibility and focus on the mission.

When you were at LL Bean, the company set your pay to the industry, which is what businesses do. You could have walked over to the Eddie Bauer store across the street and told them you made "this many sales, generated this much in revenue, led the other employees in self-initiated projects, promoted a friendly atmosphere, retained this many repeat customers and contributed this to the company." Eddie Bauer may have been happy to hire you - at a higher wage because you're so valuable. If you were part of a union, you wouldn't have been able to negotiate on your own based on your exceptional skills. You'd be stuck with the same pay package as the ones that don't work as hard you do. That can't lead to a happy work force.

I work in a high stress job and I have no control over the environment. If I don't keep my customers happy, they'll find some one new. I did, though, work in jobs where I didn't think I was being compensated or appreciated. So I went out and found better opportunities. On my own. No union required.

Candace, you don't get it.

We don't want teachers leaving the work force because they could make more money selling shoes at the mall with less stress. We don't want cops deciding the risks of their job aren't worth what they are paid or how the city treats them, so they going to sell cars instead. Some jobs have a purpose above and beyond the economic system. I know that's hard for Republicans to understand, as they worship capitalism, but a community needs teachers, cops, EMT's and police, and we need to pay them decent wages in order to keep them long term. Public sector workers should not be expected to work for less than they can make privately, out of the goodness of their hearts. We have hedge fund managers in this country, who contributed to the collapse of the world market, who make millions of dollars in bonuses a year. And you want to deny teachers the right to negotiate for more money, when the economy recovers? How long will America's middle class put up with these skewered values?

Amy, I do get it.

I have a great amount of respect for really good teachers. Depending on which reports you read and which State, teachers make more money (if you count pensions and benefits and time) than the average income of private sector employees. Some of their benefit plans are outrageous compared to what the rest of us have, and it seems the unions are always pushing for more. “The average Milwaukee public-school teacher salary is $56,500, but with benefits the total package is $100,005, according to the manager of financial planning for Milwaukee public schools.” That's versus $48,000 average national income for private sector employees (or something like that).

This isn’t really about teachers, though. It’s about unions. As I said way back in the beginning, our opinions are formed by our experiences. In my experience, unions have gotten away from their original purpose, and seeped in corruption, power and entitlement, and do more damage than good. Throw in politicians and you have yourself an unsustainable mess. Yes, I can imagine it’s very sucky for the public workers right now. But the union system needs reform, and the situation in Wisconsin could be the spark that ignites the change.

Amy, you see the good unions can do. I see how unions can derail individuality, efficiency and success. Somewhere in the middle there might be a solution. Thanks for sharing your stories and ideas with me.

And on your last point, I always remember my livelihood depends on my clients. And because of that, I make sure they get their money’s worth. I make sure I earn the money they pay me and I treat them and their money with gratitude and the utmost respect. State employees often seem to forget that concept.

Thanks, Amy.

And on your last point, I always remember my livelihood depends on my clients And because of that, I make sure they get their money’s worth.

Oh - so now they're called clients! lol

Boy, Feisty, not TOO much generalizing about unions or state employees in our "above the fray, so full of ennui" right wing poster Candice. All I can think about are the public employees in this county who are working innumerable hours to protect this area from the spring floods. But, I am sure that Candice, good old free market Candice, would tell them to go home, and not worry about the clay dike they are trying to put behind her property, she'll pay whatever the current market rate is to have a private company do it. Yeah.....right.

News flash: The unions have been ruining our schools for a long time. The budget issues and the union issues with protecting crappy teachers are interrelated.

Just because the unions agree in theory to pay some of their health care costs , is just a smoke screen. Leaving the same corrupt system, the unions will come right back in a year and loot the treasury again.

News flash: Elections have consequences. The elected Governor and legislature have no obligation to "compromise" (meaning cave in) to corrupt public employee unions, which are nothing but a branch of the Democrat Party.

Governor Mitch Daniels by executive order limited collective bargaining..Indiana benefited immediately both fiscally and in quality of schools... Indiana is a great example, Wisconsin should follow their lead

"and the Republicans are taking this opportunity to destroy the unions, not because this is going to help improve our schools, but so the Democrats will lose those funds raised by unions."

news flash: Amy is now rhetorically unmasked, because she admitted the following:

- she doesnt care about improving education, she only cares that the Democrats continue their scheme by which compulsory unions dues are used to fund the Democratic Party...It is all about the union dues and the political partisanship....