I mentioned yesterday that it would only be a matter of time before Governor Walker ‘pulled’ a Qaddafi.

Teapublicans taking a page straight from the dictator playbook, never fail to deliver:

According to pro-labor protesters in Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker (R) may be taking a page from former Egyptian Dictator Hosni Mubarak and cutting off internet access to key protest organizers within the state Capitol building.

If you are in the Capitol attempting to access the internet from a free wifi connection labeled “guest,” you cannot access the site defendwisconsin.org. The site has been used to provide updates on what is happening, where you can volunteer, and where supplies and goods are needed to support protesters. Administrators of the website were notified on Monday that the page is being blocked. Wisconsin Democratic Party Chairman Mike Tate says that the site was put on a blacklist typically used to filter out pornography sites so that protestors inside the Capitol could not access this key site.

Former Wisconsin Assistant Attorney General Charles Hoornstra said that, if Walker is blocking the website, it could be a violation of state and federal laws concerning free speech laws. The accusation by the Wisconsin Democratic Party accompanies an accusation by the Teaching Assistants Association that Wisconsin state authorities cut off wifi access to a room they had taken over as a headquarters inside of the Capitol

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/22/wisconsin-protest-internet/

All I can say is, THANK God the state of Wisconsin doesn’t posses ‘war planes’!

Walker is nothing more than a rabid badger backed into a corner by his own greed & stupidity!

Standing PROUD in solidarity of Organized Labor across America!

Congrats Mayor Elect Emmanual!

Is Wisconsin and Ohio a fluke or part of a bigger GOP/TP Plan to give tax cuts to the rich and corporations and make the Middle Class foot the bill? You betcha, Middle Class get out your wallet!!

Many State Budgets are under water not just Wisconsin and Ohio for various reasons like a weak economy, the end of Recovery Act that funneled Billions of dollars to states, poor management of Pension Fund Portfolios, rising Health Care Costs and a bevy of others costs including States like Wisconsin that gave tax cuts to corporations (both in state and out of state) and then goes after the Public Unions to pay for them and rescind their rights to “Collective Bargaining”.

In Arizona we have the real life “Death Panels” where at least 2 people have died from having critical medical care denied to save just a little over 1 Million Dollars. She also wants to throw 280,000 families off Medicaid saving about 541 Million dollars and another 80 Million by dropping the seriously mentally ill off Medicaid. Does she use this to reduce her budget – NO; she signed a 538 Million dollar tax cut to Corporations.

In Florida Rick Scott (over the objections of his own people) cancelled the proposed high-speed rail line that lost the state 2 Billion in Federal Money and about 240,000 jobs. How much revenue do 240,000 jobs create for the state?? His budget proposal calls for 4.6 Billion in cuts (8,000 jobs lost) including cuts for education and pay cuts to teachers and other public service personal in addition to attacks on their pensions as well. Why, because Governor Scott was to give over 4 Billion in corporate and property taxes. Again cuts to taxes paid for by the Middle Class.

In Michigan Governor Snyder wants to cut 1.2 Billion for schools, universities, local governments, and wants the public employees to accept cuts totally 180 Million and raise individual taxes by cutting deductions and taxing Pensions. The goal to pay for the 1.8 Billion Dollars in tax cuts for businesses. Are you seeing the GOP/TP agenda yet?

And there are others in addition to Wisconsin, Texas, New Jersey, Indiana and Ohio that seem to be getting the lion’s share of press this week, but they do have one thing in common; they are trying to make the Middle Class and the poor the scape goats for their mismanagement and tax cuts for the corporations and the rich. Several are also trying to bust the unions even after they agree to the new pay cuts.

This seems to be the new GOP/TP way of spending cuts and spreading the sacrifice around. 100% of the sacrifice is on the backs of the Middle Class and 0.00% is on the backs of Wall Street, Big Business or the 2%. In fact, these DRACONAIN cuts are being used to fund cuts for business and the rich.

In addition to what the States are doing look at the Federal Government and the 100 Billion (which is not a 100 Billion) in spending cuts the GOP/TP wants. They all go after social programs that benefit the Middle Class and the Poor. There is nothing in their cuts that go after Wall Street, Big Business or the 2% that got us into this mess to begin with. They want to cut 100 Billion from Middle America while they gave the 2% of the richest people 81 Billion in individual tax cuts and another 69 Billion in special rate on Estate Taxes. I would have had no problem if the tax rates went back to those of President Clinton for everybody as long as the money would be used to grow the country.

Where is the sharing in the sacrifice of these spending cuts? While our paychecks will be smaller and we will be faced with cuts in education, national security, law enforcement, teachers, firefighters many social programs will disappear and rising unemployment and weaker economy the rich and corporations will see their pay checks and revenues increase. And take notice that the GOP/TP do not want to compromise on anything. The unions have accepted the new pay cuts but Walker does not want to acknowledge that, the democrats came up with over 40 Billion in cuts and Boehner would hear nothing of that as well. Either we take their deal as is or they will shut down the government, throw 1500 people out in the street on Friday, etc. You just cannot get the job done with this type on mind set from one party. It is destroying this country and it is not the unions or the democrats that are being pig headed and stubborn on this. They are bringing compromises to the table but the GOP/TP throws them in their face and says NO. Now there is a surprise.

My opinion, we as a Nation need to get spending under control. There is no argument there but it needs to be done across the board and everybody needs to sacrifice something. Our system is broken and you cannot fix it by putting the entire burden on just one group of people. We have to top kicking this can down the road. Our politicians need to get together and work out a reasonable (fair) set of cuts and then get it done. I am tired of hearing States and the Federal government say they are broke when it is the very political process itself that is broke. Fix that and the deficits will take care of themselves.

Great post, Ron. I give the lawmakers who leave their state a lot of credit--to me it isn't fleeing but acting on one's conscience in the face of opposition that refuses to compromise. I would say the same thing about Republicans if Democrats were pulling the same stunts. I think of it as a mobile filibuster--we've seen plenty of them in the last few years. In the bigger picture of things, the inability to work together by both parties is very troubling.

This latest strategy of lawmakers traveling to other states is not about laziness or being irresponsible. It’s what happens when the country becomes so polarized that senators and representatives are unwilling to compromise.

_________________________________________

Sorry, Dr. Ron, wrong diagnosis.

It's about elections having consequences and the Republican's won, and it's about the minority Dems inability/unwillingness to deal with that reality.

Ron: How true and very well written

Feisty: they will resort to anything they can including dirty tricks like hiring people to pose as members of the unions carrying inflammatory signs trying to get on the media and claim they belong to that union and then FOX can distort the truth again like they did with ACORN and others.

Just more dirty politics right out of Karl Rove's playbook.

Joe:

I'll stick with my Dx. You know, if you had greater insight, you wouldn't be collapsed as often. Glad you think it's a badge of courage, 'cause it's not.

I give the lawmakers who leave their state a lot of credit--to me it isn't fleeing but acting on one's conscience in the face of opposition that refuses to compromise. I would say the same thing about Republicans if Democrats were pulling the same stunts.

________________________________________________

Tell us, Steeler Fan, were you saying you gave the Senate Republican's "a lot of credit--to me it isn't fleeing but acting on one's conscience in the face of opposition that refuses to compromise" for all of 2009-10?? If you say "yes", back it up with links to your posts. 4-5 will do.

There's no question that the tactic of using legislator's feet and cars to filibuster has Conservatives in an uproar. Measures that they'd plan to push through rapidly and without real examination from the public have instead become the main story nationwide for the last week.

Just like Scott Walker's false claim that he campaigned on ending collective bargaining, much of the Conservative agenda depends on secrecy and misdirection to be enacted.

Did a memo go out instructing certain posters on this site that all references to the Republican Party must also include a reference to the Tea Party? I see we can't say Republicans anymore it has to be some witty conflation like GOP/TP or the latest teapublicans.

It just reeks of a juvenile level of collusion that comes from groupthink. Is this because there is some survey or poll on Daily KOS or ThinkProgress that has the Tea Party at a lower level of like-ability than the Republican Party. Perhaps one of our original thinkers on the left can enlighten me as to the purpose of this.

FR: The question the Obama White House and Democrats need to be asking themselves is this: How did the political conversation so quickly turn from jobs to cuts?

One in the same really. People and businesses know who will be on the hook to pay the taxes to finance the out of control spending of the government, and it is them. With the inefficient and corrupt government routing deficit dollars to its pet projects, that creates an enormous drag on the economy. Until the government stops its reckless spending, private businesses can only sit and wait until the government finally figures out it cannot create jobs, at least create jobs without also creating enormous debt.

I know these concepts are difficult for Liberals to understand. Liberals can comprehend the government spending money, and a job may be created by that spending, but what Liberals miss is that that money is borrowed money, it has to be paid back by someone at some point. That is a job killer. But Liberals can’t comprehend the government spending less while having the private sector create those jobs, and create them much for efficiently, and much more cost effective when compared to what it costs the government to “Create” those jobs.

And that’s what we’re seeing now across the country. The Republicans/Conservatives are attempting to rein in the costs of government. The Democrats/Liberals, after losing elections that were directly tied to their poor performance on the economy, continue to struggle with the concept that government spending is the problem. The Liberals want to continue that spending. It’s clear the Liberals will never learn that lesson, and that’s why they are so slow to comprehend that the county is in fact telling government to cut the spending. The times are clearly passing by people like Obama, Reid, and Pelosi.

In Florida Rick Scott (over the objections of his own people) cancelled the proposed high-speed rail line that lost the state 2 Billion in Federal Money and about 240,000 jobs. How much revenue do 240,000 jobs create for the state??

Hmmm...these number seem a little fishy.

Here is a Pro Florida High Speed rail site, and their number are drastically different.

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/jobs

Some quotes from the site.

Building the Tampa-Orlando HSR line is projected to create 23,000 job-years of direct construction jobs and more than 48,000 job-years of work through both direct and spin-off employment during the four-year construction period. The peak employment period will be between the fall of 2012 and 2014 when close to 10,000 workers are expected to be directly employed in building the system. FDOT further estimates the system will employ approximately 600 people once operation starts and another 500 indirectly on an on-going basis.

So during construction at its peak, it will be 10,000 workers and then during operation it will only be roughly 1100 workers. This is a far cry from the 240,000 you claim.

When you have a Governor that is on record that he will not compromise what are you supposed to do? Just roll over and let the thugs stomp all over you? No way, the democrats made the only decision they could under a dictator reigns.

They accepting the new pay cuts that helped reduced the deficit. The governor elected to throw his weight around and go for the destruction of the union as well. The democrats rebelled and made it a national issue and other States are doing the same.

The GOP/TP brought this on themselves by their failure to compromise or even negotiate in good faith. The same agenda that Boehner is pulling in the House.

This has nothing to do with the deficit any longer. It is just about power and wealth and the total destruction of unions and the middle class.

John B., Des Moines, IA: There's no question that the tactic of using legislator's feet and cars to filibuster has Conservatives in an uproar.

It's not just Conservatives, it's a lot of other people. The Independents I'm sure are not looking too kindly on the Democrats abandoning their jobs and running away from their responsibilities. Don't you think it's going to be a little difficult for the Democrats to explain their leadership qualities to the electorate during campaign season? They lead by running away? That's not a filibuster, that's the act of a true coward.

Cowards don't win elections, and the Democrats are most definitely cowards. Elections have consequences, and one of them is exposing the Democrats for the cowards that they are.

Disabled Navy: When you have a Governor that is on record that he will not compromise what are you supposed to do?

Use it as an issue for the next election.

The Democrats are acting like children. Why would the voters ever want these cowards to lead them anywhere?

Ron Indiana

An excellent way to start the day off.

@Joe in Albany

Tell us, Steeler Fan, were you saying you gave the Senate Republican's "a lot of credit--to me it isn't fleeing but acting on one's conscience in the face of opposition that refuses to compromise" for all of 2009-10?? If you say "yes", back it up with links to your posts. 4-5 will do.

Where have you been Joe in Albany

politico:

Then we have “the blade” in Indiana: Governor Mitch Daniels was known as “the blade” when he was Budget Director for Bush 41. As Budget Director, his blade was so sharp, he cut portable generators out of a proposal for New Orleans to purchase new pumps in the advent of a hurricane. Well, Katrina came a year later and the pumps were wired in to the existing power grid. When the grid went down, the pumps stopped working and citizens died.

Ron, do you have a source for this information? I am curious about this, but I can not dig up anything about it.

Governor Walker also wins the ‘Pinocchio’ Award for the day! With a big red FALSE!

"I campaigned on (the proposals in the budget repair bill for Wisconsin) all throughout the election. Anybody who says they are shocked on this has been asleep for the past two years."

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/

Union Lies and other Bullsh!t

"For the Children" Lie:

"When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."

- Albert Shanker - Founder of the United Fedration of Teachers and President of the American Federation of Teachers ( from 1974 until death in 1997)

What does any part of the above have to do with serving the people, serving the children, anything except the self interest of the unions and the politicians they buy to cut town.

Unions have no value to society.

God given right to collectively bargain bull sh!t:

Why did God wait intil the 50's?

Nope it was a right given by politicians who wanted a political machine to support their election/re-elections, plain and simple. Ray Charles could see that.

And BTW - Why did God not give teachers the right to teach unless they were members of the union? Why did God not give teachers the right to opt out, the right to chose where their dues go/support their own candidates?

The Independents I'm sure are not looking too kindly on the Democrats abandoning their jobs and running away from their responsibilities

Cowards? Do cowards jump into overdrive, mobilizing support, obtaining press coverage to bring attention to attacks on the rights of others? It's working, a SUBSTANTIAL majority of those polled believe that unilaterally terminating rights to collective bargaining are wrong and an overreach. Congratulations to the courageous Democrats of the Wisconsin legislature--those in the Senate who did what was necessary to bring the spotlight to a little man playing Napoleon and to those in the House who are using that spotlight to debate the hypocrisy of Conservatives and those who bought and paid for their legislative seats.

BS, the American people are starting to wake up and shouting we are not going to take the GOP/TP bulling anymore. They talk about reduce the deficit out of one side of their mouths and then pass tax cuts for the rich and corporations out of the other side, basically using the cuts to the Middle Class to pay for the rewards and bonuses the GOP/TP gives to those that paid for the elections. This is what they are doing in the States and Federal government as well. Paying back those special interest groups that funded their elections and sticking it to the Middle Class and Unions.

People in Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, Washington and others are saying enough is enough. Where is your sacrifice in this? Why are you being rewarded and we are being punished? We did not create this mess but the GOP/TPwants to use us as the scape goats and put all the burden on our backs and then give rewards and bonuses to those that did create this mess.

People are feed up with the inaction of the GOP/TP on creating jobs and improving the economy and they are taking to the streets because this is the only option open to them. The GOP/TP will not negotiate or compromise.

Ron, Feisty Redhead, US Navy. Great way to start the day.

It is troubling that politics has become so divided that the art of compromise is lost but that lack of willingness to compromise these days resides primarily in the GOPTP. Speaker Boehner will not use the word "compromise" because his TP base thinks compromise is a sign of weakness. Wrong, compromise is a sign of intelligence. As I said yesterday, the U.S.A. was built on compromise, our Constitution was written through compromise.

As for poor Joe, he doesn't see the forest for the trees, he does not see his wages and benefits are the next target to cover the tax cuts for the rich and famous and big business. When a person only views a situation through partisan glasses, they do not see the total picture of what is happening.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Feisty: they will resort to anything they can including dirty tricks like hiring people to pose as members of the unions carrying inflammatory signs trying to get on the media and claim they belong to that union and then FOX can distort the truth again like they did with ACORN and others.

Just more dirty politics right out of Karl Rove's playbook.

I so agree with you Navy and Feisty. It's just Karl Rove it's also those filthy Koch Brothers.

As I've said over and other the GOP/Teabaggers will do anthing to divide and conquer; even if it goes contrary to the Founding Fathers documents.

@ Jody, Iowa

It's not just poor lost in the forest it's all the righties who post here. There have no moral compass.

Otherwise, if they did they'd read right.

"It's about elections having consequences and the Republican's won, and it's about the minority Dems inability/unwillingness to deal with that reality."

Riiiiight...and repealing/litigating the Healthcare Reform Bill which was passed by the House and the Senate after Obama's election, is fair game after Republicans simply regained the House. Hypocrisy, thy party is Republican.

Ah, I couldn't wait to see who would have the first post of the day, and the comments that had already been written and posted in such a short period of time after the original post. So what time do you all get prepared to start the day? Does MSNBC have a starting time?

Well, have a nice day libbies, this is day two of "act like a libbie day", and it's golf with libbies today. I can imagine how informative it should be between shots........

Joe in Albany

"It's about elections having consequences and the Republican's won, and it's about the minority Dems inability/unwillingness to deal with that reality."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well the last time I checked I see that the Democrats won the Senate. So, we can say the Democrats won. Let's remember one thing; the Republicans in the House had better learn how to compromise.

T

he evidence is indisputable that the Koch brothers have purchased Governor Walker of Wisconsin.

There you go again Ron, making sweeping inflammatory statements while providing no documentation to support those assertions. So where is the indisputable evidence of which you speak? Let's shine the white hot spotlight on it so we can all see it. And so we can make our own assessments, without need of relying on your biased spin. Or would you consider that beating a dead horse too?

MBeaty:

You ask a legitimate question regard the source of my assertion. It is a true fact, or I would not put it out there. You will not find it on the internet. An investigative reporter, the caliber of Michael Isikoff or a Democrat operative could find this information by reviewing the proposals and grants written during the Bush 41 years. In truth, I'm not at liberty to give my human source.

As for poor Joe,

Jody, don't you worry yourself about me. I'm doing fine, and will continue to do fine, and don't need any "help" from lefty liberals.

My point, Joe, is that you fight a fight you believe in with whatever weapons there are. I was very frustrated with the constant filibustering over the last 2 years but I blame both parties for allowing themselves to be hamstrung by arcane rules--there is enough blame there for both parties. And in my view, the Democrats have been relatively more willing to compromise than the Republicans. I'm not wild about the way either party governs---I think too many of them are bought and paid for by other masters.

There you go again Ron, making sweeping inflammatory statements while providing no documentation to support those assertions.

Do try to keep up Billy!

There has been numerous links to back up the statement... or where you too busy flogging the dead 'reconcilliation' horse to notice?

Ron, if Daniels is so unpopular, why are you among 29% who disapprove of him? Why does he consistently get approval ratings north if 60%?

Which brings me to the answer to First Read's wail about the public wanting cuts, and not Obama's "stimulative" spending:

Perhaps you recall that, during 2008, when faced with story after story about the"poor" over- extended homeowners who were facing foreclosure, overwhelming majorities OPPOSED having the federal government intercede to help them keep their homes. We were inundated with stories of the individuals, with dire warnings that a neighbor's foreclosure would have consequences for our own homes, there would be a spike in homelessness, it would rain frogs, the sky would fall.

Nothing changed the minds of the majorities, who seemed to think that people who had gotten themselves into these messes should be responsible for getting themselves OUT.

So, if the majority of people think that way about their neighbors' debts, you can imagine their outrage over debt thrust upon them by politicians who are either ivory tower dwellers who have never admitted reality, or in the simple, crooked business of vote buying by way of federal funds.

Why do you think the earmark ban is such a winner?

We had big cuts in New Jersey, and Christie's approval went UP. Daniels has spent the last six year cutting, and his approval is in the 60's- despite Ron's oft stated disdain.

The fact is that people understand that the government's borrowing and spending habit needs to be broken for the good of the economy. Obama does not understand that- he still thinks that talking about spending on rainbows and unicorns will curry favor with the electorate.

It will not work. Maybe he should turn some attention to the Middle East? He seems not to have that feed on his news service.

Just saying. . .

Joe in Albany

"It's about elections having consequences and the Republican's won, and it's about the minority Dems inability/unwillingness to deal with that reality."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well the last time I checked I see that the Democrats won the Senate.

________________________________________________

Not in Wisconsin.

Cowards? More like gutless, cowardardly grown-ups with the social understanding and responsibility of spoliled brats.

It's one thing to pick up your marbles and go home, it's another thing to grab the community's, the people's marbles and run to hide so no one can play.

Compromise? How do you compromise with spoiled children throwing a tantrum and running away?

Further - why would you?

Great posts Ron, Feisty, US Navy and Jody,

Governor Walker together with the gop/tp legislators and their puppet masters, have miscalculated. Bless the Wisconsin 14, their actions in leaving the State, alerted the country to their devious plan and now they are in a corner, stuck. THe bill in some form will eventually be passed the GOP/TP being in the majority, but now the working people of the middle class are onto the Gop/TP and it will be a cheap victory.

Mitch Daniels sounds like a typical right wing ideolgue, one of those politicians who can't believe their eyes when their policies result in the opposite of what they claimed would happen. The question is: why do they never learn? Today's Republicans are still claiming spending cuts are the only way to grow the economy, when history has shown the opposite is true.

From the Indianapolis Star archives:

Bush gave Daniels the nickname "The Blade," but the administration's tax cuts combined with an economic downturn put Daniels in the awkward position of watching a $236 billion annual surplus turn into a $400 billion deficit during his 29-month tenure

The Republican party merged with the Tea Party in 2010. Anyone who didn't notice that by embracing the Tea Party faction of the extreme right, the Republicans gathered them into the fold and they became one. The Tea Party could not raise enough campaign money and needed the Republican power machine to have a chance so they unwittingly became, not a third party, but a part of the existing one. There is a Tea Party Caucus within the Republican Caucus. It was the GOP which cheered the TP's protests for one reason: the republican party brand, as declared by a republican, was dog food. Without the "enthusiasm" of the Tea Party supporters, the GOP had only a slim chance of regaining power in 2010. The GOP is now the GOPTP because they chose to be.

I'm not in the least bit worried about you, Joe, that would be a waste of time.

Bill:

The tie between the Koch Brothers and Gov Walker is no longer connecting the dots: it is a straight line.

Think Progress 2/22/11 7:15 pm. Koch Industries Front Group Americans for Prosperity Launches Ad to Support Walker's Union Busting" I know, you may not like Think Progress, but it is just one of many sources.

NJ: You have no credibility, therefore, you are not a worthy opponent.

Bob:

You seem a little upset today. Maybe you would feel better if you turned off Fox News.

Amy: Thanks for your comments. The Indianapolis Star is a very conservative, Republican newspaper that attempts to be friendly to the Governor.

Then we have “the blade” in Indiana: Governor Mitch Daniels was known as “the blade” when he was Budget Director for Bush 41. As Budget Director, his blade was so sharp, he cut portable generators out of a proposal for New Orleans to purchase new pumps in the advent of a hurricane. Well, Katrina came a year later and the pumps were wired in to the existing power grid. When the grid went down, the pumps stopped working and citizens died.

You ask a legitimate question regard the source of my assertion. It is a true fact, or I would not put it out there. You will not find it on the internet. An investigative reporter, the caliber of Michael Isikoff or a Democrat operative could find this information by reviewing the proposals and grants written during the Bush 41 years. In truth, I'm not at liberty to give my human source.

So was it Bush 43 or Bush 41? You claim it was under Bush 41's presidency, but Katrina was not one year later from his presidency.

Doc Ronnie: Think Progress 2/22/11 7:15 pm. Koch Industries Front Group Americans for Prosperity Launches Ad to Support Walker's Union Busting" I know, you may not like Think Progress, but it is just one of many sources.

Well, if thinkprogress says so, there can be no more debate. Kind of like AlGore with "Global Warming", ehh, "Climate Change".

So tell us Doc, does thinkprogress report from the same undisclosed location where the Democrats are holed up?

It is really hysterical watching these coward Democrats from Wisconsin/Indiana in Illinois when they show up on tv. It's kind of like when bin Laden pops up in a cave somewhere every once in while to pop off one of his rants, then he goes back into hiding.

This is taken DIRECTLY from the article in the link Feisty posted.

THANK YOU FEISTY for proving OUR point!!!!!!

There is no dispute that Walker campaigned on getting concessions on health and pension benefits from state employees. And, to be sure, that is an important part of the measure.

Maybe next time you should actually read the article............lmfao!!!!!

btw......WHO is paying for those state senators to hide in another state feisty?

I would worry a lot more about my own credibility if I were you, Ron.

You confused Bush 41 with Bush 43. You have a "secret source" that maybe Michael Isakoff could uncover, ( he seems uninterested, by the way). You state that Daniels is unpopular, when there are numerous polls that put his approval rating above 60%, consistently.

You resort to ad hominem attacks because you have nothing else.

Credibility? Physician, heal thyself.

There is no dispute that Walker campaigned on getting concessions on health and pension benefits from state employees. And, to be sure, that is an important part of the measure.

But for Walker to be right, he has to be correct on the entirety of the plan. So we'll look more deeply at the collective bargaining side of the equation, which has caused the ongoing firestorm in Madison.

Here is a summary of the changes:

For public employee unions except those covering public safety workers, the measure would narrow collective bargaining to wage issues, and only then within specific limits. It would end bargaining on such things as health care costs, pensions and working conditions -- rights granted to the public unions more than 50 years ago.

Additionally: Wage increases would be limited to inflation or less. Employees would be able to opt out of paying union dues. An annual certification vote on the existence of each union would be required. And public employers would be barred from withholding union dues from worker's paychecks.

Walker's proposal also repeals all rights to collective bargaining for more than 30,000 University of Wisconsin employees, something granted in 2009.

For this item, we reviewed dozens of news accounts and various proposals on Walker's campaign website to determine what he said about collective bargaining during the campaign. We talked to both campaigns in the governor's race, and union officials.

During the campaign, Walker prided himself on presenting many specific proposals to voters. Our Walk-O-Meter includes 60-plus specific promises. Indeed, his plans for the state Department of Natural Resources include at least seven specific elements, including appointment of a "whitetail deer trustee" to review deer counts.

But nowhere in our search did we find any such detailed discussion of collective bargaining changes as sweeping as Walker proposed.

We asked Walker spokesman Cullen Werwie to provide evidence that Walker raised those issues during the campaign.

"During the campaign he ran on giving local units of government the flexibility to manage their own budgets," Werwie said. "That is what he is continuing to say and do right now."

He gave one example: a Walker proposal in July, 2010 to allow local units of government to switch from health plans that have high premiums to the state's lower cost employee health plan.

Walker's camp said at the time that the switch would not have to be negotiated with unions; Walker would move to take the choice out of the collective bargaining process, they said. Labor officials disagreed and said they would fight attempts to change the collective bargaining law.

Read the entire article at the link above...

Walker still winsthe 'liar liar pants on fire'award along with the moron who's feeble attempt to creatively edit falls into the EPIC fail category!

Maybe next time someone should read the ENTIRE article...

MBeaty:

Daniels was Bush 41 OMB Director from 2001 - 2003. During that period the New Orleans proposal was submitted.

Feisty......WHO IS PAYING FOR YOUR BELOVED STATE SENATORS IN WISCONSIN TO HIDE OUT????

btw....your "author" conceded his point before he even finished the article....'nuf said

Daniels was Bush 41 OMB Director from 2001 - 2003. During that period the New Orleans proposal was submitted.

Sorry, to keep bothering you, but like I said earlier, I am very curious about things involving Katrina. Do you know what the proposal was or have a link to where it could be found? Surely a state proposal would be public record.

Ron,

Upset? Hardly - I love it. The unions serve no social value, the lie is being exposed.

Fox? Hardly - BTW, I don't recall seeing the Shanker quote anywhere. If that came from Fox, I think I would have seen it. But maybe I havem issed it / I was away yesterday.

Anyway how did you like that quote? Pretty damning, huh? Care to defend it? (Let me know if you have seen it before - if it's not out there maybe I should e-mail it to Fox.)

On a serious note, Politicains could not keep raising union wages. It effected their budgets. So to appease the unions and buy their support, they offered ridiculous benefits to be paid in the future. The future is now and the cost is unsustainable / absurd.

This is what the whole deal is about.

Got the courage to discuss this?

no joe, no bo, nj

We had big cuts in New Jersey, and Christie's approval went UP. Daniels has spent the last six year cutting, and his approval is in the 60's- despite Ron's oft stated disdain.

The fact is that people understand that the government's borrowing and spending habit needs to be broken for the good of the economy. Obama does not understand that- he still thinks that talking about spending on rainbows and unicorns will curry favor with the electorate.

No, Jo

so spending on highspeed rail is rainbows, spending on infastructure in unicorns. if the previous administration has invested in these things instead of tax cuts and WAR our bridges would not be ready to fall down, our roads would not be tearing up our cars. we just might be closer than we are with electic cars than we are now. instead of crying to the saudi's to pump more oil he should have given loan to the auto makers to develope electric cars. thats the best way to fight energy problems. not pump more oil.

Bush choose to spend on a sexy war, and tax cuts. don't blame Obama for seeing his mistakes and trying to correct them, while Bush was pissing away surplus, He never introduced a job bill, he never introduced a infastructure bill, he said we don't need no skinking highspeed rail, but when in euorpe he marvaled at there rail system. but on the other hand he had no problem spending on infastructure for Iraq, repairing the roads and bridger we distroyed marching to victory. he was more than happy to do for the people of iraq than the People of America, and NO Jo we are paying for it, and its not up to Obama to stand still because of Bush. we need to raise tax and cut spending, Bill clinton had the best of both worlds, in 1994 he raised tax, and in 1995 the republicans cut spending. this is how we got a surplus. not cutting tax and spending. that is ass backwards.

Fiscal Year/U.S. Government Budget (Spending)/Deficit or Surplus
2000: $1.79 trillion/$236.2 billion surplus
2001: $1.86 trillion/$128.2 billion surplus
2002: $2.01 trillion/$158.8 billion deficit
2003: $2.16 trillion/$377.6 billion deficit
2004: $2.29 trillion/$412.7 billion deficit
2005: $2.47 trillion/$318.3 billion deficit
2006: $2.66 trillion/$248.2 billion deficit
2007: $2.73 trillion/$160.7 billion deficit
2008: $2.98 trillion/$458.6 billion deficit

No Jo this graph shows us that either Bush is a iddiot or was stealing.

This moring on Morning Joe, Christie sounded more like a democrate than a consertave republican, scott walker need to learn from him, Christie did not try and take away barganing rights but at the same time did not give tax cuts, this morning he said that EVERYBODY need to feel the pain, i don't see that is Indiana or Wisconson. when asked why he did not give a tax cut, he said that right now every body should help, and jersey is a very high tax state. I can respect that. he did not blame the democrats, he blamed everybody. Unlike walker in wisconson. he did not just go after teachers, he went after the real problems with pensions COPS!!!!!! (i have been saying this for months) Walker was so interested in his political base he excluded the cops and firemen because they indorsed him, i call that chicken S&it.

After this morning i'm have a lot more respect for him, but. i still want him to pay the feds back.

MBeaty- I could find nothing on it, either- and I, unlike Ron, knew what I was looking for, since Bush 41 was not President from 2000 to 2003- Bush 43 was president during those years.

Somehow, I am having trouble believing that the OMB Director went line by line through each and every agency's budget proposals, and decided to cut generators in the proposal for New Orleans.

Strikes me that, when the budgets are submitted, they are either accepted, cut, or increased, and it is up to the department heads to make decisions about how to allocate those funds.

Then again, I do not have a 'secret source' to feed me information.

I have a secret sauce, though. Goes great with apple pie. I would tell you the ingredients, but I am not at liberty to do so.

National momentum in support of the Wisconsin public employees’ unions is gathering great power. Two massive rallies in Tallahassee, Florida, on Saturday will see thousands from all over the state raising their voices – and, by coincidence, also giving Gov. Ron Scott a lot more to think about with his own budget proposals.

Help is also gathering in Wisconsin from around the country.

People forget that Wisconsin is virtually the birthplace of the “progressive” movement – and that when it was born, the Republican Party was its parent. When Franklin Delano Roosevelt ran into conflict over his efforts to battle the Depression, feed the starving, and hire the unemployed, to finally acknowledge the suffering of the abandoned elderly, and to restrain the Wild West behavior of Wall Street, the Republican Progressives moved to back him up.

Gov. Walker of Wisconsin is becoming more and more isolated as he stands defiantly in the corner – a corner he painted himself into. Now that Politifact has exposed his fib about campaigning on this issue, it’s easier to understand both the fib and the facts. Prior to his election as Governor, Walker was the county executive of Milwaukee County. In that position, Walker declared a “financial emergency,” and on that basis fired the County Courthouse guards. He hired rent-a-cops from Wackenhut to replace them.

Unfortunately, it turned out there was no real “emergency,” and that Walker was fibbing in order to carry out his ideological desire to both break the guards’ union, and to privatize a government function.

Long story short: The fired guards fought back and won, leaving the County with a very large bill – in a judgment rendered last January, too late to affect the election – that it will not appeal. The Wackenhut guards? Oh, turns out hiring them didn’t exactly save money, either. Just another example of the right-wing fallacy about “privatizing” government operations.

So maybe Walker just thought that everyone in the state already KNEW about his penchant for faking, or grossly over-stating, a “financial emergency,” and arbitrary union-busting. Or maybe, in what sure looks like a pattern, Walker just fibs. People like that are sometimes called “habitual liars.”

The longer the Wisconsin standoff lasts, the more embarrassing truths come out about Walker, his rigid ideological views, and his proir bad behavior. And the longer the standoff continues, the more powerful and damaging his opponents become.

What’s next? Maybe it’s time for union leaders to think about a GENERAL STRIKE IN WISCONSIN.

The tie between the Koch Brothers and Gov Walker is no longer connecting the dots: it is a straight line.

You're right Ron, I don't think much of ThinkProgress. But I did read their piece and must tell you there is no "evidence" in their piece that proves Koch "purchased" Governor Walker. ThinkProgress asserts Koch contributed $43,000 to the Walker campaign, hardly a sum that can "purchase" any candidate in modern campaigns that can cost 100 times that amount. Nor is his contribution any different from contributions of similar amounts that private citizens give to Democratic candidates. So unless you think the angels are only on the side of candidates that you like, then what Koch gave to Walker is a non-issue. Furthermore, the Washington Post states: "there's no evidence that Walker needed to have his strings pulled by the Koch brothers to pursue his drive against the unions, something he's relished for years."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum line/2011/02/americans_for_prosperity_to_ru.html

As for spending large sums on political TV ads which ThinkProgress also pointed out, so what? Whether any one likes it or not, the rules of the game allow for both corporate and union spending on political advertising. And the notion that ties between Koch and Walker is a "straight line" can be equally applied to those who spend on ads opposing Walker or his policies – like the ad campaign unions in Wisconsin are launching. In fact, I saw one of those ads last night and it was quite good. But it remains to be seen whether or not most folks in Wisconsin will think so too.

I also need to point out that the MSM has reported that Obama's political machinery is involved in Wisconsin helping to organize the opponents to Walker. And of course there was Obama's statement the other day about an "assault" on unions. So what should Americans think about that? Is it appropriate for the president of all Americans to come down on the side of a subset of Americans in this matter? Or would it be more prudent for a president to leave this matter in the hands of the state where the dispute is taking place? Heck, we both know the answer to that: Obama needs union support to win in 2012, and he'll do what it takes to solidify that support. Whether it's appropriately presidential or not.

There you go, Bill, using facts against talking points.

While we are on the subject of campaign contributions, I wonder why we never hear a word about the single largest contributor in the last cycle- AFSME, which contributed $87 million in a losing attempt to keep democrats in the majority.

I guess maybe money is not all it takes to win elections. It does not hurt, but it is no guarantee, either.

I have been watching the situation in WI and I was wondering what options/cards the Governor has available to play.

From what I can see, the hand that the Governor has to play is pretty bad.

If the Governor capitulates from his current stance, his right-wing backers will be upset and he will not get any more funding or support for his 'causes' and will be booted in 2014.

On the other hand, if the Governor stands firm, there will be economic uncertainty and a possible revolt of the electorate, fueling the recall prospects, which would enable tthe Dems to boot him out in 2012.

So the question that needs to be asked is this - what WILL the Governor do? At this juncture, he is literally painted into a corner that he may not be able to get out of. I see a lot of bluster and bravado being shown, especially when the Governor is threatening a layoff of 6,000 jobs.

So what is the end game here? What outcome of this situation could we expect from Gov. Walker?

My take - Gov. Walker will be a 'good soldier' and continue to press the 'company line'. The Dems will hav a chance to recall the Governor in January, 2012. Until then, expect to see the Governor become more and more outrageous in his actions and behaviour. He will become more and more 'entrenched' in his methods.

It ain't over yet.

Bill,

Great post. I might add that while as you say Koch gave Walker $43,000.00 - the unions contributed $3.6 million the last two elections in Wisconsin.

I really enjoy your comments.

You need to be care-full however, if they are too accurate and difficult for the left to repute, you are going to be labeled "not a worthy opponent."

Good Morning Everyone

Does TA seem just a little STRIDENT!!!!!!! Today? Or is it just me? Was'a'matta TA, didn't you sleep well? Too much caffeine? Got a serious wedgy? Take chill pill Dude before you stroke out.

Oh, and to answer you question TA, we had them send the bill to you. WE ALL KNOW, as a "True American" you'd want to foot the bill for "democracy in action" in Wisconsin so we had them charge everything to your VISA. We knew you wouldn't mind.

Why are we talking about Unions?

Why aren't we talking about jobs? Where's little Clara Peller when you really need her? ("Where's the Beef?") Where's the beef folks? We were promised beef by the newly empowered GOP. So, where is it? All we've gotten so far is "mystery meat."

If we had JOBS, the GNP would go UP which would help correct the budget deficit wouldn't it? So, John, Mitch, where's the beef?

Unions. Another successful wedge issue cooked up by the GOP. Fahgeddaboudit. It's just more smoke and mirrors from the GOP to mask the fact that they don't have a plan to create jobs. They never had a plan to create jobs. They don't know HOW to create jobs, just wedge issues. These collective bargaining issues in Wisconsin and elsewhere are part of a concerted plan to raise the big bad union boogey man and blame him for budget deficits and move the discussion away from the fact the GOP has not created ONE JOB in the last ten years. At least not in this country. India is booming that's the GOP, so is China. But not us.

C'mon folks, this isn't rocket science, wake up and smell the coffee. Stop following the GOP down every rabbit hole and stay on topic.

WHERE'S THE BEEF?

I keep wondering just how much of the middle class the GOPTP is going to turn over to their corporate overlords in the name of "job creation" before they realize that their overlords are just taking our money and not creating jobs. You keep complaining that the poor are just out for free handouts. Just what is it you're giving corporations? At least the poor put it straight back into the communities and economy. The overlords are just hording it and creating jobs overseas.

The GOPTP was elected on the promise of job creation. Did I slip into a coma and miss something? It's a shame we'll have to wait so long to kick their greedy butts out of office...AGAIN...and try once morer to drag this country back off the cliff they seem to be intent on driving us over.

No Dennis, you didn't slip into a coma, the GOP has just successfully introduced the "wedge issue du jour" to change the discussion. They have no jobs. They never had any jobs. They don't know how to create jobs, because creating jobs requires INVESTMENT which would require their rich constituency to part with some of the precious wealth and apparently they are not willing to do that. Luckily they have the unions and illegal aliens to blame everything on and distract us from the fact that THEY HAVE NOT INTRODUCED ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT WOULD CREATE A JOB!

While their CEO buddies make millions and build new vacation homes in Vail and Maui they eliminate 8,000 jobs to increase the bottom line and their own bonuses.

WHERE'S THE BEEF JOHN?

WHERE'S THE BEEF MITCH?

Skip

Great post!

What can I say? Mitch+John = All Hat, No Cattle

Well, if thinkprogress says so, there can be no more debate.

No need to take the word of Think Progress when you can go straight to Americans for Prosperity for sourcing; http://www.americansforprosperity.org/national-site

So the Kochs gave $43,000 directly to the Walker campaign and you can say that isn't a lot of money. Never mind the fact that it's SERIOUS money for most of us, but let's say that. They also gave $1M to their PAC to the Republican Governors Association, which in turn gave $65,000 to the Walker campaign AND spent $3.4M on attack ads against opponent Tom Barrett. That's BEFORE the aid linked above, including TV ads in support of attacking worker rights.

Koch Industries PAC also gave $6,500 on 16 Republican candidates for the legislature, all of whom are now in favor of union busting. Not a big surprise as the June 2010 Koch Conservative strategy meeting in Aspen, CO featured Mark Mix, president of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Council. Mix is on record favoring Walker's effort at union busting.

Put it all together and Walker has gotten more than a little help from the Koch brothers in his assault on the rights of American workers. http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/wisconsin-scott-walker-koch-brothers

Ok liberals, do you even read what you write before you post?

Ron:

The evidence is indisputable that the Koch brothers have purchased Governor Walker of Wisconsin

Uhmmm...I was unaware the the Koch Brothers paid the public employees in Wisconsin. Walker's plan does not eliminate unions, it just removes the ability for PUBLIC employees to collectively bargain. So where is this indisputable evidence? LIE.

Feisty:

I mentioned yesterday that it would only be a matter of time before Governor Walker ‘pulled’ a Qaddafi.

and then you quote an article talking about Mubarek. Like the president, you are too worried about how to spend taxpayers dollars on people that feel they shouldn't have any personal responsibility, but Qaddafi is in Libya, Mubarek was the leader of Egypt. I know anything outside of a liberal's little rose colored world with money that grows on trees doesn't matter to you, but Egypt and Libya are two separate countries with a very different history.

US Navy:

In Arizona we have the real life “Death Panels” where at least 2 people have died from having critical medical care denied to save just a little over 1 Million Dollars

Documentation on that? Are you talking about the government run health plan not covering transplants? Is that "single payer" system not working so well? Oh, and sorry, if these people had health insurance, they would have had coverage. Before you start that "they couldn't get insurance" BS argument, as of 2010, Arizona does have a high risk pool available for prexisting condition patients.

In Florida Rick Scott (over the objections of his own people) cancelled the proposed high-speed rail line that lost the state 2 Billion in Federal Money and about 240,000 jobs.

Really? 240,000 jobs? Oh and it's only federal money so who cares if we waste it on something that isn't necessary or even useful right? As long as it creates a few jobs to keep the unions fat and happy who cares....it's only $2 billion (this year).

When you have a Governor that is on record that he will not compromise what are you supposed to do? Just roll over and let the thugs stomp all over you? No way, the democrats made the only decision they could under a dictator reigns.

From someone that supports a president that repeatedly threatens to veto any bill that doesn't go along with his agenda, who forced a bill down the american people's throats by using parliamentary tricks, who refuses to compromise and make cuts like the voters wanted, your statement, US Navy is very hypocritical.

John B - Des Moines:

a SUBSTANTIAL majority of those polled believe that unilaterally terminating rights to collective bargaining are wrong and an overreach

Are you referring to the poll taken by the Labor Union? Or was it the poll that was taken AT the demonstration? The bad news is the MAJORITY of people voted for this type of action. Walker say this is one thing he would do during his campaign and the MAJORITY of his constitutants supported it. Hate to tell you this, elections are more reliable than polls.

I seem to see a lot of liberals all with the "dirty rotten corporation" mentality. Ok, let's raise the taxes on the corporations, let's start hammering them with MORE laws and requirements. Let's put laws in place that all workers get collective bargaining.

And, when they move to a country willing to work with them, or they leave your state for a state more business friendly, you can move the millions of out of work homeless into their vacant buildings.

Joe:

You may wish to read the second thread posted by FR. Koch paid for his campaign.

Joe, you may want to stop watching Fox, and read some before writing.

Are you referring to the poll taken by the Labor Union?

Nope.

Americans strongly oppose laws taking away the collective bargaining power of public employee unions, according to a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll. The poll found 61% would oppose a law in their state similar to such a proposal in Wisconsin, compared with 33% who would favor such a law.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-22-poll-public-unions-wisconsin_N.htm

Walker say this is one thing he would do during his campaign and the MAJORITY of his constitutants supported it.

Wrong.

Let’s sum up our research.

Walker contends he clearly "campaigned on" his union bargaining plan.

But Walker, who offered many specific proposals during the campaign, did not go public with even the bare-bones of his multi-faceted plans to sharply curb collective bargaining rights. He could not point to any statements where he did. We could find none either.

While Walker often talked about employees paying more for pensions and health care, in his budget-repair bill he connected it to collective bargaining changes that were far different from his campaign rhetoric in terms of how far his plan goes and the way it would be accomplished.

We rate his statement False.

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/

Thanks for playing.

Dennis

I couldn't have said it better myself. Good work.

JOHN, MITCH, WHERE'S THE BEEF?

Walker campaigned on fixing the state's budget. This is a bill to start fixing the states budget. This is why we elected him.

He didn't campaign on union busting. That's an overreach on his part.

Let’s sum up our research.

Walker contends he clearly "campaigned on" his union bargaining plan.

But Walker, who offered many specific proposals during the campaign, did not go public with even the bare-bones of his multi-faceted plans to sharply curb collective bargaining rights. He could not point to any statements where he did. We could find none either.

While Walker often talked about employees paying more for pensions and health care, in his budget-repair bill he connected it to collective bargaining changes that were far different from his campaign rhetoric in terms of how far his plan goes and the way it would be accomplished.

We rate his statement False.

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/

You are so right johnb (post 1.9) it is simply amazing on how obama snuggles up to the rich and business ceo's seeking support for his secret aganda on the economy and other promises (???) to business. It is simply disgracefull.

Didn't he once say something about transparency?? To think that all of his late night closed door meetings with democrats in 2009 was nothing more than a way to convince michelle that he was just out with the boys for a few smokes and drinks.

I did so like obamas short speech as the Egyption crises unfolded, "I told mubarak..." but what did he tell qaddafi? Looks like he is more interested in walking softly when an oil producer is on the line. I guess obama is just another conservative.

much of the conservative agenda depends on secrecy and misdirection to be enacted.

Ron of indiana - Never concerned myself greatly on how many flags of "no value" or "inflamitory" it took to collapse threads. However,I can see that the majority of FR political blog posters are liberals and that many of those have alligned themselves into high school like cliques ready to devour (collapse) the dissenters of the cliques opinion.

I can imagine these FR liberal cliques to be much like cancer cells just waiting to destroy or silence those Americans wanting America to go forward rather than to dwell in the past as so many FR liberal posters here do.

Please do carry on with telling us we won't be collapsed by toeing your idea on how to post.

Beverly (post 1.23) - ROTFLMAO...

It's not just poor lost in the forest it's all the righties who post here. There have no moral compass.

Come on sweety, your idea of a moral compass is to let 1 or 2 individuals bleed medicaid dry with medical procedures that may or may not result in any type of quality of life for them. All this while those thousands of individuals requiring a modest medicaid suppliment to maintain a productive life in America wil be told that one or two individuals got their $$$ instead. Sound like you want to be in bed with the rich!

Your idea of a moral compass is to let public union rules (in the non-protective services arena) bleed the private sector taxpayers dry by promoting benefits that will show little benefit to the private sector who pays for their bennies. I have yet to see a public union worker (non-protective services) rush to my side asking how they can help me

Yes, such a wonderful moral compass you promote.

Ron of indiana (post 1.28) - without collabaration or first hand experience (with a caveat) you can't claim it as a true fact.

Job1 (post 1.26) thank you for confirming that the democrats are the ones who have refused to compromise all these years when they controlled the house, senate or both.

Seeing so many Conservatives so desperate to talk about ANYTHING other than Wisconsin makes me smile.

Ron Indiana

Wisconsin senators are in Illinois and Indiana Democrats have headed west as well. So this is what the country has become…a game of musical chairs! This latest strategy of lawmakers traveling to other states is not about laziness or being irresponsible. It’s what happens when the country becomes so polarized that senators and representatives are unwilling to compromise.

Indiana Ron, I am having a hard time with your statement. You are encouraging and validating the these Democratic legislators who fled the state and hid rather than follow the rule of law they were elected to follow. Now if the tables were turned, and Republicans "ran" rather than perform their duties, would you still honor this disruption of elected government? I'm certain that if the tables were turn, you would be extremely vocal about this "run-away" process.

Memories today are fresh, and the internet allows people to remember. I do believe people have had enough of spending, lack of jobs and taxes. Some of your cohorts-in-crime on this site believe that the country is voicing agreement with the unions. You will be surprised, as will those union types who feel they have been wronged. Unionism will undergo a change, and those Dems/Running Party folks may find themselves recalled, looking for another venue for revenue.

The evidence is indisputable that the Koch brothers have purchased Governor Walker of Wisconsin. This governor is not interested in compromise, finding solutions, working for the people of Wisconsin. His goal is to bust unions.

Since I don't happen to have a Koch Bros fixation, as many libbies seem to have, I have no data to agree or disagree with your statements. From what sources do you find this evidence, and has this information been sent to the proper authorities so they may investigate and prosecute him? If not, then why are you continuing to submit erronous ? I'd like to read your data.

Then we have “the blade” in Indiana: Governor Mitch Daniels was known as “the blade” when he was Budget Director for Bush 41. As Budget Director, his blade was so sharp, he cut portable generators out of a proposal for New Orleans to purchase new pumps in the advent of a hurricane. Well, Katrina came a year later and the pumps were wired in to the existing power grid. When the grid went down, the pumps stopped working and citizens died.

Others have talked about the wrong Bush, so I won't......but didn't the Governor of that state mandate the hardwiring of pumps into the grid? My understanding was the Gov. didnt want to have the units stolen by vandals. There were many errors there, by many people in authority.

That is serious “tough love”. Daniels would like nothing more than to bust the unions in Indiana and that’s exactly what the governor and GOP/TP allies have planned. He cannot explain how defeating collective bargaining will help the state’s financial situation, but he plans further cuts in public schools and a variety of other services to counties and cities.

With a number of states facing serious financial conditions because of the nonsustainable spending programs throughout the years, and the choice NOT to address these issues sooner, tough decisions must be made. Now I too feel for the state workers, but in most states, they are the largest piece of the state budget, along with the various entitlement programs. It is my understanding that the issues you raised are ONLY for the public service unions, and NOT for private sector unions as reported by some. The taxpayers are the funders of the public sector unions, so there you go.........reduce cost as many companies do.

The outcome of all this is that hard-working Hoosiers suffer, while Governor Daniels can claim he knows how to cut services, regardless of the consequences. For Daniels, it’s all about “me first”, with no compassion for his fellow Hoosiers.

I said I felt for the public sector union members, but I cannot give the "runners" a pass for their irresponsible method of avoiding a vote. Recall them Ron isn't sufficient. Bring them up on charges available under the rules of law would be more appropriate.

So, since the Indiana vote happens, are your first up on the MSNBC chart? If so, I can't wait to hear the MSNBC op ed, along with the near seconds responses from your libbie teammates. Perhaps you will time the submissions farther apart so they don't seem suspecious.

@Navy,

BS, the American people started to wak up, shouting we are not going to tak the GOP/TP bulling anymore!

Wow, what a comment......Navy, for the past two years, which party has dictated policy after winning the Presidency, the House and the Senate? Which party talks about biparticianship while meeting behind closed doors, or not inviting the opposition to the dance?

Now which Party has run & hid rather than perform their responsibility under the rule of law? I believe that no matter how hard your libbie group attempts to spin this, the American people have spoken, and they did speak in November rather than be vocal union protesters in WI. And, they will remember those legislators who chose to run rather than vote their convictions.

Oh, and if you wish to share, just how does a Navy obtain a disability? Special Warfare or a pilot? But thank you for your service.

@ Redhead,

"Liar, liar, pants on fire?" Wow - haven't heard that since the second grade. Can you get more creative without being so critical while responding?

Can't wait until the opening round tomorrow....and can't wait to see a response that would take time to read, think and respond to in more than 3 minutes.

End of my "act like a libbie day" it's too difficult to be so illogical.

Let me ask you just a couple of questions.

Safecracker, this one's for you...

Did you approve of the way that the Senate Minority used the filibuster to stop almost all legislation, even ones that later passed without opposition? [They didn't have to leave the state; they just said no.] Were you aware that the Senate Democrats gave equal representation to the minority GOP in the committee that wrote the Health Care Bill? Do you know that many of the provisions on the bill, including the mandate were originally proposed by Republicans? Did you watch when the President invited the GOP to a live TV meeting at the White House to discuss the Health Care legislation? Who didn't get invited to the dance? Are you aware that Texas, the state with the biggest deficit ($27B) has no unions and a very conservative government? Do you know what the hell you're talking about, or are just another hypocrite?

IR: Great post

Great Post IR: I think that Gene Hackman movie was called. "Hoosiers". As for the rest of your post...very well said.

Ron Thought that accent sounded familiar

Great post, IR. It seems to me that people in a lot of states are being confused with smoke and mirrors and obfuscation and lies. If you repeat a lie enough it becomes the truth. The latest is that we need to eliminate the union to solve the Wisconsin budget crisis (which itself may be a lie) when the unions have agreed to every financial concession asked of them.

IR:

Hoosiers from the southern part of the state sound a lot like our Kentucky neighbors, some even sound like they came from West Virginia. But we can't get that yo'allll down as well as you.

IR...excellent post, them's words for our GOP/TP friends to ponder and a little pondering wouldn't hurt them either!

IR, fun post. So glad to know the Come Back Inn has 37 Hoosiers along with the 14 Badgers enjoying the hospitality.

Yesterday on Morning Joe, Mike Barnacle questioned Gov Walker about the fact that the public unions have agreed to the monetary concessions Walker demanded to solve his budget problem. Walker said no one had contacted him about it and Barnacle asked if Walker had contacted them. "No" he said, he had not; Barnacle then posed the question, well, why not? Walker had no answer except a blank expression. What Walker fails to grasp is a simple fact: it takes both sides to negotiate.

It was reported last night, that Governor Walker was assured by republicans outside of Wisconsin that if he went after the collective bargaining rights, there would be a couple days protests and it would be over, he'd succeed and lead the way for other states to do the same. Walker failed to calculate Wisconsin's history of leading the nation in establishing workers' rights for organizing, for workers' compensation, 40-hr weeks, weekends off, and other rights now taken for granted by EVERY American worker. Governor Walker and those republican advisers did not study Wisconsin history nor did they consider that workers are people, and other people will always side with the group they feel is being targeted wrongly. A poll released yesterday found that 61% of Americans say they would oppose any legislation like Walker's in their state regarding removing collective bargaining.

Oh yeah now that's what I'm talking about, great post!!

Hamlet

Thanks for the update, USN. This also goes to why it's so important to shine a light on corruption at the Supreme Court. There's plenty of reason to believe that at least 3 Justices are firmly in the pocket of the same folks that are pushing behind the scenes for collective bargaining rights to be destroyed in Wisconsin. Scott Walker from that state also is part of the multistate lawsuit against the Affordable Care Act. Connect those dots folks, even though they don't create a particularly happy picture.

So explain to me the limiting principle of this interpretation of the commerce clause. For example, if I choose not to buy a Chevrolet I am in effect driving up the price that others will pay because of a reduction in the contribution to the fixed costs of GM. How is this different from Health Care? So tell me is there a limit to the commerce clause because if there isn't then there is very little point to the constitution.

If you are going to argue that everyone will need health care at some point in their lives? That is not true there are examples of people who never see a Doctor or receive health care. In fact three of the plaintiffs in this case refuse medical treatment on religious grounds.

Too true, Navy. I make it 5-4 against.

Alan ~ A better way to have written it -- at least, one that surely would have withstood Commerce Clause challenge -- would have been to require that anyone who used the system has to buy minimum insurance. Even the judge in Florida agreed that would fly. But that wasn't what the insurance companies wanted. They wanted a proposal that would guarantee them a certain flow of money in order to agree to certain provisions in the bill. After they got that concession from the Obama administration, whether it was constitutional or not wasn't really their problem. Especially since there is no severability provision and they know they will not have to live with those other provisions if the mandate goes down.

@AM No the way to have written it was to institute a tax to pay for it but neither the Administration nor the congressional Democrats had the testicular fortitude to cal a tax a tax.

Even your use of the commerce clause is pretty wide. It is basically saying that if I entered the market previously then I cannot leave it. So to use my example if I have ever bought a car then I can be legally forced to buy a Chevrolet? I don't think that's much of a limit to the power of the clause.

Informative post, US Navy. The republicans in their zealousness to oppose HCR use the "mandatory" purchase for one of their objections to it yet common sense says that WE who carry insurance are already paying ER costs of those who choose not to buy insurance or simply cannot afford to buy it. The GOPTP is pro-business yet argues against mandatory purchase when that is the element that protects private insurance from those who would wait until they become seriously ill to buy it thus increasing the financial costs of health care for those private insurance companies. My only objection to the mandatory purchase was that a public option of some kind such as the ability to buy into medicare could not get through the Senate obstructionism. Congressional republicans did not oppose on principle because they nearly all agreed HCR was needed but rather opposed HCR simply to defeat President Obama.

Let's say for a moment Conservatives succeed in fully overturning Affordable Care. What will they have won?

Return of preexisting conditions clauses.

Return of caps on coverage.

Return of differential treatment for mental health vs other coverage.

Return of the Medicare donut hole.

Untold numbers of young people who are still looking for that job with full benefits thrown off their parents insurance.

Etc...

Can you say "pyhrric victory"?

I missed you yesterday Bev!

Where you working the election? So happy that there won't be run-off!

Bev:

How true, the American people are now standing up to the GOP/TP in the only way they can. Hitting the streets. The GOP/TP do not want to compromise, they do not want to negotiate. They want it all and if they cannot have it then they will punish the American People like they would punish a bad dog. This is their mentality and mode of operation. Throw 1500 people out into the streets, shut down the government and then blame everybody else for their despicable actions.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

I missed you yesterday Bev!

Where you working the election? So happy that there won't be run-off!

Thanks I missed you too and all the others standing solidarity with the union buster, no compromising, Gov Walker in Wisconsin.

Yes, I worked the polls. I glad the people in Chicago decided who had President Obama's back. Just ain't gonna happen. I 'm so glad it won't be a runoff too. Tea baggers started right off the bat trying to knock Rahm off the ballot in their endeavor to make President Obama 1 term-er.. I'm glad it came back to bite them in the @aa.

The GOP/ TEBAGGERs need to get a new notebook to keep track of where we've been and where are going here in Chicago and the nation.

I'm glad don't have to see anymore campaign ads about Ram-Rahming a choice down Voters' throats again.

Despite it being a low turn out voters, spoke for the fire-eater Rahm Emanuel. The precinct I worked was so slow I could run to Star Bucks as many times as I wanted. Chicagoans crossed the racial, ethnic, geographic and socio-economic line again just like the nation did for President Obama. Righties and FOX NOISE get used "Mayor Rahm-bow" is in the 'hood.

This proves people here in Chi-town like our President. Our President has some long coattails.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Bev:

How true, the American people are now standing up to the GOP/TP in the only way they can. Hitting the streets. The GOP/TP do not want to compromise, they do not want to negotiate. They want it all and if they cannot have it then they will punish the American People like they would punish a bad dog. This is their mentality and mode of operation.

And it's a fruitless mode of operation, Navy; Solidarty!!!

awwww......isn't that sweet.......POT and KETTLE missed each other yesterday.

I guess they would when it's really hard to stand on one leg....... much less none!

btw ....BEV....WHO IS PAYING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATORS TO HIDE OUT IN ANOTHER STATE?

The democratic senators are paying for it, True. But they're not in hiding. They even participate in the Senate sessions via either telephone or the Internet, although they're not allowed to say anything. They haven't abandoned their jobs; Scott Walker did that when he proposed his way or the highway. His job is to lead, not bully.

True American-2366567

awwww......isn't that sweet.......POT and KETTLE missed each other yesterday.

I guess they would when it's really hard to stand on one leg....... much less none!

btw ....BEV....WHO IS PAYING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATORS TO HIDE OUT IN ANOTHER STATE?

I'll bet you did too un- American

I know who is NOT paying for the 14 Democratics here in Illinois. That'd be the literal and figurative air polluting KOCH brothers.

Hey, un-american how long do think you, other righties, and FOX NOISE will get used to "Mayor Rahm-bow" living in the hood instead of the 19th century ?

They haven't abandoned their jobs.........is that what you said?

I'm sure that if you told your boss you weren't showing up indefinitely, but you'll watch "work" on the internet, he/she would just love that.....you wouldn't be fired...no....no.

But they're not in hiding..........I can't even respond to that without laughing.

His job is to lead, not bully........Like Obama did when he rammed through health care reform under reconciliation IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT?

You and feisty and bev, and johnb, and usnavy, are all the SAME KIND OF COWARDS!!!!

Bev.....I can't make heads or tails of that incoherent rambling, so I'll just ask you again...

WHO IS PAYING FOR THOSE 14 STATE SENATORS TO HIDE OUT?......CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION????

Well said, Beverly. Wisconsin has been a wake up call to everyone, not just public sector workers.

The right wing noise machine is getting stranger by the day--Limbaugh trying to out "outrage" Beck, Beck trying to out do Limbaugh and they both sound paranoid and delusional and make as much sense as Moammar Kaddafy (Gaddafy, Kaddafi, Qaddafy ? depending on what media you're watching or reading). Bachmann calls for Beck to solve the budget crisis because he knows how to use a chalk board--but does he know how to add and subtract real numbers not fake ones? Beck posts mob rule under the column democracy and declares only he and his viewers are under the column Republic. Last I checked our government was a democracy and not a republic--conservatives like Beck have a real goal, a repubic with a conservative dictator to rule. What is sad, too many people sit and absorb this entertainment mumbo jumbo as reality.

Jody, Iowa

Well said, Beverly. Wisconsin has been a wake up call to everyone, not just public sector workers.

they're not in hiding..........I can't even respond to that without laughing.

This is even funnier...

GOV. "IMPERIAL" WALKER GETS PUNK'D WITH FAKE KOCH BROTHERS CALL!!!

Koch: We’ll back you any way we can. What we were thinking about the crowd was, uh, was planting some troublemakers.

Walker: You know, well, the only problem with that —because we thought about that. The problem—the, my only gut reaction to that is right now the lawmakers I’ve talked to have just completely had it with them, the public is not really fond of this […]

Walker: [...] I went on “Morning Joe” this morning. I like it because I just like being combative with those guys, but, uh. You know they’re off the deep end.

Koch: Joe—Joe’s a good guy. He’s one of us.

Walker: Yeah, he’s all right. He was fair to me…[bashes NY Senator Chuck Schumer, who was also on the program.]

Koch: Beautiful; beautiful. You gotta love that Mika Brzezinski; she’s a real piece of ass.

Walker: Oh yeah.

Throughout the call, Walker boasts about his media appearances and strategizes with Koch. Some may say that there’s nothing damning in the call. The idea of the Governor of Wisconsin admitting that he thought about planting bad actors inside the protest crowds doesn’t look too good.

And I would argue that its existence is damning enough. There are tens of thousands of Wisconsin citizens outside in Madison, inside the Capitol Rotunda, who cannot get an audience with Scott Walker. “David Koch” can call and talk to him for 20 minutes. This power imbalance is at the heart of our corporate-captured government. Without a strong citizen’s movement, people like the Koch Brothers would have all the access, all the influence, and all the power. And they would get legislation written their way, protecting and furthering their interests.

And best of all, Murphy didn’t have to pretend to be a pimp or a prostitute in order to do it. Or, depending on your opinion of Mr. Koch, he did.

Radio Rwanda aka FOX NOISE wont pick it up; I bet.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/gov-imperial-walker-gets-punkd-with-fake-koch-brothers-call/question-1534771/

His job is to lead, not bully........Like Obama did when he rammed through health care reform under reconciliation IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT?

Yeah, Just like crazy, crazy Scott Walker acting like like Kadify sending the Army out. And I thought Falin Palin was dumb and crazy. Wow.

You and feisty and bev, and johnb, and usnavy, are all the SAME KIND OF COWARDS!!!!

Get serious

I love it. The democratic senate stands firm and Beohner blinks. It seems the democrats aren't the the paper tigers the GOP took them for. The GOP controlled house will have to dance to the democrat tune now. 80 freshmen GOP reps might not care about reelection but 241 established GOP reps do care very much about reelection.

I see Bev and Feisty need others to fight their battles for them.........reminds me of children who were raised by absentee parents.

nevertheless.......all you libbies should just ADMIT that you don't care how those 14 demorat cowards are paying for their hiding place as long as they can continue to OBSTRUCT democracy.......can't wait to see how long it takes them to show back up once their DIRECT DEPOSIT of taxpayer money doesn't work anymore.........

Bev, I'd want some verification that the link is real, but if it is...WOW.

Here you go JohnB - it's REAL alright!

Ian Murphy, editor of the Buffalo Beast, just did something wonderful. Murphy, pretending to be billionaire industrialist and secretive conservative political activist David Koch, called Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, currently in the midst of attempting to crush the public employees' unions. "Koch" got through to Walker (who hasn't been taking calls from the Democratic state Senate minority leader). He taped the call and put it online.

So Walker will happily take a call from a Koch brother. He says that he considered "planting some troublemakers" among the protesters. He is convinced that everyone is on his side. Like most people who only watch Fox, he has a skewed impression of the popularity of his union-crushing proposals. (His plan is, nationally, roundly unpopular. Except on Fox.)

When "Koch" calls Mika Brzezinski "a real piece of ass," Walker does not respond by saying something awful, which is a bit of a disappointment.

Walker does reveal that he is planning to trick the Democrats into coming back into town for a "talk," despite his lack of interest in compromising anything. He will ask them to open a session in the Assembly, and then take a recess for this talk. At that point, the Senate Republicans would hold the vote on the bill while Walker distracts them Democrats with this entirely pointless discussion:

They can recess it... the reason for that, we're verifying it this afternoon, legally, we believe, once they’ve gone into session, they don’t physically have to be there. If they’re actually in session for that day, and they take a recess, the 19 Senate Republicans could then go into action and they’d have quorum because it's turned out that way. So we’re double checking that.If you heard I was going to talk to them that’s the only reason why. We’d only do it if they came back to the capitol with all 14 of them. My sense is, hell. I'll talk. If they want to yell at me for an hour, I'm used to that. I can deal with that. But I'm not negotiating.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/index.html

True American, the country was founded on the principle the majority is not always right. Walker may have GOP controlled Wisconsin Assembly behind him but he has already lost the support of the people.

Why do you feel it's okay to mock and belittle your opponents? It does nothing to convince liberals that what you are arguing for is just. I could respond in kind but I prefer to take the high road. It is easy to laugh at others and insult them. It is harder to make them think.

WOW...Imperial Walker really IS that stupid!

Wade....I have never seen you here before, so I will explain how First Read works.

Each morning FR posts a left-leaning story, then LouisJ, Feisty, BEV, JohnB., USnavy, & several others almost immediately post long, rambling stories of how their opposition is evil, complete with links to such places as thinkprogress, moveon.org, thehuffingtonpost, etc.

Next, the opposition to their point of view posts opposing views with links to actual, well respected media outlets and amost immediately the left begins CALLING NAMES, MOCKING, AND BELITTLING THEM.

I started looking at FR about six months ago, when I was curious as to how the left was reporting the happenings on the day....I started out asking reasonable questions of these 6 or 8 people and was immediately CALLED NAMES, MOCKED, AND BELITTLED because I asked them hard questions.

So, you will see that no matter what you ask here, that opposes their p[oint of view, you will be met with NAME CALLING, MOCKING, AND BELITTLING.

I tried in vain, back in aug. and sept. 2010 to have reasonable, intelligent, articulate conversation with these far-left wing zealots, but to no avail. So, now I just try to put the facts in their face with the same amount of respect that they show everybody else.

Really, this has just become a place for crazy anarcists, revolutionaries, conspiracy theorist, and your general far-left nut case........It's like comic relief. You will NEVER get one of these people to concede that their side is NOT perfect. (with the exception of John B. yesterday, conceding the point that Planned Parenthood should not be funded because healthcare reform would negate the need for it)

So, have fun, but don't expect too much.....you will definitely be let down if you do.

btw......Gov. Walker has NOT lost the support of the people.

Well TA you just fit every requirement below: Congratulations on your award. Enjoy.

Sticks and stones may break your bones but names will never hurt you is elephant poop. Name calling does hurt people and shows a lack of respect for others and is the trait of a very weak and unhappy personality.

CYBER Bullies are anonymous phantoms online, and nobody can hurt them back. Cowards like that. There's also the ignorance and lack of compassion factor. That's huge from the comments I see on news stories and opinion columns and on this board from the same people over and over.

These CYBER Bullies say much more revealing things about themselves than they realize, and what they are saying is repugnant, usually a lie or gross exaggeration, and sometimes out right creepy. To really understand a true bully, read the book, "The Sociopath Next Door," by Martha Stout, PhD.

Those who often resort to such behavior tend to try to seek control of their own problems online, rather than constructively dealing with them in real life. I think that those who are consistent with whom they are (authentic) in real life/online are the LEAST likely to bully. They are comfortable with themselves, like and respect their own being. They are proud of their accomplishments and do not feel a need to shout them from the highest tree.

The cyber bullies on the other hand are first and foremost cowards. They do not like themselves very well or their positions in life and are starved for attention. They will take their frustrations out on others by demonstrating name calling, trying to shout (type) the other person down with random rants not germane to the discussion. They become being nasty because they can as they know that in the cyber world there is little one can do other than ignore them, which by the way just makes them more vile and persistent in trying to get attention.

They basically are very insecure in their station in life almost to the point of being impotent.

US NAVY.....Did you even read my post?

Who's the bully?....................

IN CASE YOU MISSED IT...............I SAID

I tried in vain, back in aug. and sept. 2010 to have reasonable, intelligent, articulate conversation with these far-left wing zealots, but to no avail. So, now I just try to put the facts in their face with the same amount of respect that they show everybody else.

True American let me explain how I write and work. I stick as close to the truth as I. In the MSNbc news a new poll revealed that 61 percent of Americans now oppose any changes to collective bargaining rules. I used to let hateful posts annoy me. Now I choose if I respond.

Walker is headed for a political train wreck if he does not relent. Oh he may still get the bill signed. But he has awakened a sleeping giant labor and the democrats. His victory will come at severe damage to the GOP. So no I won't be disappointed if he wins. There is going one heck of a political fight before it passes or he decides to compromise.

Ty Navy Vet,

I expected a stinging retort from TA. I have learned not to let people like him get under my skin. In fact I think a stinging retort shows I have stepped on a nerve. If responding truthfully angers a few people I'm man enough to take their anger and their words.

Well done Wade, thanks for your input here on FR.

The Force is strong with this one...

Wade.......sorry, I didn't realize you were a far left-wing zealot.

............awakened a sleeping giant?..................you are absolutely right, WE ARE AWAKE!

Awake and outnumbered 35 to 1 at the Wisconsin capital, 10 to 1 at the Iowa capital...

If you want to waste key strokes with lies go ahead True American. A lie repeated is never the truth.

Well thought out and thorough as always Jody. I look forward to your opening poste every day.

NJ fiscal crisis was not created by a tax cut to millionaires. The tax was supposed to be a temporary one and Governor Christie did not renew it. The crisis was caused by the use of deffered compensation that has been abused by governors in this state, of both parties, over the last 30 years. It has also been caused by the fact that the numbers do not add up. You explain to me the math of how you make these benefits work in an era of rising medical costs and life expectancy? If we have more retirees living longer and costing more how is this paid for without raising taxes substantially? I didn't hear of San Francisco dropping taxes for corporations or cutting taxes for the rich but their public employees pension scheme is now eating up the revenues needed to pay for schools, police and maintenance. In NJ we already have the highest state taxes, sales tax, gas tax, property tax, income tax and something that Corzine added so that parents, not mothers, could get maternity leave. We have school board superintendents earning more than the governor. We have small town cops retiring at 50 after 25 years service with a pension. How do we pay for a 25 year pension and medical benefits on 25 years of work. You give me the figures to explain it!!

And BTW you can believe all you want about SS having 3.7T in the bank. The bank that has that money, the Federal Government, is currently borrowing 40 cents on every dollar it spends. If it has to start paying back the 3.7T then the only source of revenue it has is to borrow more, or actually CUT some other spending. I for one am not going to support giving it even more money( by raising the cap on SS contributions) to piss away. The party is over and we are the ones left holding the bill.

While I do not hold the opinion that the GOP/TP is responsible for every single deficit on this planet I do make the assertion that they are in fact adding to them and trying to use spending cuts as their cover. We used to call this robbing Peter to pay Paul and the GOP/TP are masters at it.

When you basically offset tax cut to the rich and corporations with spending cuts to the Middle Class that is exactly what you are doing. If the GOP/TP were honest about the spending cuts they should not then turn around and give tax breaks (cuts) to corporations and the rich. They should also be looking at them for cuts as well, not giving them rewards and bonuses

Jody, Iowa

Where are the Cuts? Well, where are the federal legislators? Home resting up for the looming battle. The economy is recovering, massive spending cuts are not the answer but targeting cuts to areas that do not impact people's lives, where it can be done without much impact do make sense.

Jody your missing the GOP/TP point, and that is cuts that don't impact peoples lives are not sexy. defense cuts are not sexy, cutting medicade part D is not sexy. but cutting EPA, planned parent hood, TSA, Public TV, teachers that is sexy as hell.

Jody, great post. People forget or dont want to know how big the role of the unions factor into our working lives today. .

Workers, whether they be blue or whitecollared, now enjoy a 40 hr work week, no child labor, clean safe working conditions, weekends, sick pay, paid vacations, none of these would be available to the workers today, if not for union efforts.

If anyone today, thinks that an employer would offer you these conditions out of the goodness of their heart, you are greatly mistaken. I have been the benificiary of union agreements, I have also lived and worked in a 'Right to work State' and seen firsthand what can happen on an employer's whim, been a victim of it, but won my case when I challenged. You are correct, over time all these gains will be lost as greedy employers will gradually erode and exert every effort to bully and intimidate workers to work longer hours for less pay.

@GM So basically you did not need a union and the law as it stands, even in right-to-work states, protected you?

Alan. You are right about Christie and taxes; I should not have lumped him in to the Governors who are cutting taxes. But I object to his bullying and beating up on public workers. NJ has its own self-created problems but that does not excuse Christie for his demonizing of public workers and their unions. Those unions are the only thing that protects teachers, fire, police and other workers from a bully like Christie and he is a bully.

Jeff, good point. The GOPTP going after the maligned evil programs like Planned Parenthood, PBS, NPR speaks to the party faithful and their fears fed by those same conservatives. Federal funding for Planned Parenthood funding is for family planning, birth control, women's health issues; the right fails to understand that their zest for anti-abortion legislation eliminates programs that actually prevent unwanted pregnancies and reduces abortions. I gave up trying to understand the irrational fears of conservatives years ago--Big Bird is not a communist or socialist brainwashing children, he's just a big bird entertaining children while teaching them simple things like counting and spelling and how to be nice to others.

Great job, Christie has been governor for a while. Where are the jobs? There are fewer people working in Jersey now than he was elected. Where are the jobs? The Republicans have nothing for jobs. Cutting budgets doesn't create jobs. The Dems just need to keep asking Where are the jobs? The Republicans have nothing. Where are the jobs? No Republican at any level has anything on jobs. We all know that the trickle-down theory means that the middle class will be peed on from a great height. Okay Republicans, where are the jobs?

irishradical - Democrats still control the senate and executive branch. So democrats, where are the jobs?? Obama - Where are the jobs??

Jody of iowa - Hmmmmm/

State public workers are taxpayers, too. Their incomes are taxed, they pay property taxes, sales taxes, local option taxes, luxury taxes, tobacco and liquor taxes, gasoline taxes. They are contributing as taxpayers to the funds for their health care and pension benefits with every tax dollar deducted from their paychecks.

Yes they are, their wages and benefits come exclusively from the private sector taxpayers and businesses unless you wish to say their pay comes from government borrowed $$$. If the private serctor refused to pay taxes where would the public workers get their pay???

Bill, Fairfax VA: All those issues are merging together to produce one humongous seminal moment for this Congress.

Not just for the Congress, but for the country. Events have certainly gotten out in front of Obama, who has sat down and shut up since he made a huge political error when he made his "assault on the unions" comments last week. Obama doesn't even comprehend what is happening in the country. The People have had it with government spending both them and their children into so much debt. The Democrats though continue with their "Lets spend more!!" mantra. The Democrats are going to lose that debate. They don't have a chance.

In the first two years of the Obama administration, this country faced the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Ronald Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 43 all borrowed money and increased the debt to address the recessions during their administrations. Every president from either party has done this in our history. The Federal Government is the only entity that can borrow money and replace the lost private sector jobs, assist states with budget shortfalls, and stabilize the economy by infusing dollars to fill the void. Both parties are guilty of overspending but sometimes it is necessary. Those who attempt to claim that President Obama is unique in deficit spending simply fail to acknowledge the past. I keep waiting to see if any conservative posters will ever acknowledge the role Bush and the GOP House & Senate played in the massive debt we have today--it was not all created by President Obama and democrats.

Jody, this republican liberal agrees with you. My mindset is like like Lincolns, I am in fact a Lincoln republican. Lincoln would turn over in his grave if he could see what the GOP has done to the party he founded. GWB and the GOP controlled house and senate created the mess, and now they don't want to fix it. If it takes destroying the republican party once and for all to stop the GOP, then so be it. Don't think every republican is conservative or marching in lock step we aren't. I voted for Obama, Gore, Clinton, and Mondale. I would have voted for Carter but I wasn't old enough.

Great story Houston, I hadn't heard that one. If only Conservatives were as anxious to emulate Lincoln as they are to claim his legacy.

John B:

If only Conservatives were as anxious to emulate Lincoln as they are to claim his legacy.

Actually, I seldom hear conservatives talking about Lincoln at all. Maybe they think he had a bad record on "states rights" and he did deprive citizens of their private "property."

Lincoln couldn't get nominated to any position in the modern GOP, let alone the presidential nomination. He had too much integrity to do the kowtowing to the teabaggers that's required of "serious" Republican candidates like Pawlenty and Romney who want the nomination.

Houston:

There you go again, giving facts. The GOP/TP do not like facts, they like to make up their own. Great post.

Houston, excellent reminder, terrific post. Thanks for adding to my comment yesterday when I mentioned that our country and constitution was founded through compromise.

How quickly you forget how much you enjoy pointing out that Lincoln would be a Democrat today.

The fact that I am a Lincoln republican is why some people may have thought I was a democrat. I am liberal republican who votes as Lincoln would today, if he were alive, with the democrats. More liberals like myself need to join the GOP, then we can force out the conservatives who dominate it now. I hate the current GOP and long for a return to Lincoln's principles, not the slash and burn agenda the GOP is hellbent on pursuing now.

There are some who will call me a RINO I'm sure. That's fair. I consider every conservative who does not think as Lincoln would, a RINO in the worst worst way.

Scared, JoAnna? Come on over here and say that.

I thought you Libs talked of using more civil tones, of not instigating someone on the edge from acting violently. Apparently that was lost on Massachusetts Rep. Mike Capuano (D-Ma) who told a crowd in Boston on Tuesday rallying in solidarity for Wisconsin union members.

"Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary”

Source: http://www.wral.com/golo/blogpost/9158109/

JAS1:

That begs the question, why are they getting paid for not doing any work? It's the Liberal way I guess.

Why did the Senate Republicans get paid for doing nothing for two years? They didn't even have to get up off their lazy behinds to block legislation with their abuse of the filibuster. The Wisconsin and Indiana Democrats have had to leave their homes for extended periods of times.

I notice Conservatives only object to inflammatory language when it's in defense of the rights and benefits of average Americans.

And there's a big difference between "Every once in ashile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary" and "Tiller the killer" or crosshairs on a map coupled with "don't retreat, reload."

John B:

How true. Do as I say, not as I do. They had no problems when one of the GOP/TP Senators would stop a bill with one objection, which they did not even have the guts to identify the Senator who objected.

Under the current dictatorship in some States the only thing they can do is hit the street. You cannot negotiate with a party that says no compromises. For them it is all or nothing, take it or leave it. Well the democrats left it and the American People appear to be on their side on this one. Even the Troopers in Wisconsin that supported Walker have nowwithdrawn that support. Other neighboring governors are saying busting the unions goes too far.

John B then you haven't been paying attention or reading this blog very often. Most of the rude name calling comes from the love group of liberals who wait feverishly every morning to post their comments copied from a blog. I am an Independent but getting a little fed up with the hypocrisy I see on the liberals side. They seem to think it's only bad if it is coming from the conservatives.

JoAnna ~

I thought you Libs talked of using more civil tones,

That doesn't work with you, JoAnna, so I gave it up. Any civil attempt to meet your ad hominem attacks is always met by yet another unwarranted and sarcastic personal accusation. Case in point -- you couldn't meet the substance of my arguments yesterday, so you asked if I was feeling okay.

Besides, I didn't threaten violence. I just asked you to come over here and say to my face that democrats are scared. I'm not scared, JoAnna. And stomping your foot and saying it three times doesn't make it so.

John B then you haven't been paying attention or reading this blog very often. Most of the rude name calling comes from the love group of liberals who wait feverishly every morning to post their comments copied from a blog. I am an Independent but getting a little fed up with the hypocrisy I see on the liberals side. They seem to think it's only bad if it is coming from the conservatives.

AM: Any civil attempt to meet your ad hominem attacks is always met by yet another unwarranted and sarcastic personal accusation

AM: And no one believes you are a real human being, Bobby. Maybe we should ask to see YOUR birth certificate

A little hypocritical, no?

The bickering is reminiscent of two long time marrieds who have settled into a daily routine of repeating the same insults and accusations to the point of meaninglessness...

Hey JoAnnaSmith..........I'm SURE you can take her!

I'm all for the lay-off notices now!!!!!

They want to act like children, then they should be treated like children. (although, that does give children a bad name)

Joanna:

A little hypocritical, no?

Yes, but at least I know when I'm doing it. Hypocrisy can be good when it's for a good cause.

Same deal, JoAnna. Civility doesn't work with Bobby, either. He just comes back with more of the same.

True American ~

Hey JoAnnaSmith..........I'm SURE you can take her!

That just goes to show what you know.

dangerfield, you seem to want to stay above the fray, comment on the commenters, and little else. That may work well at the UN, but not here. What are your opinions on the daily events? What are you comments on what is going on in Wisconsin? What are your comments on Senate taking up the House version of the Continuing Resolution that has $60 billion in cuts?

Or are you comfortable being just the wise old sage that wags his finger at others?

AM:Yes, but at least I know when I'm doing it. Hypocrisy can be good when it's for a good cause

That is a really strange way to live a life. Accuse others of bad behavior, but dismiss the very same behavior in your self. There's something pathological about that.

I agree with Dangerfield, how do we expect the politicians to act like adults when most of the public cannot. "Hypocrisy is good when its for a good cause " really? Are we 12?

Hypocrisy can be good when it's for a good cause.

Holy cow, that gets my vote for best quote of the year so far. JoAnna, you sure know how to bring out the worst in these people. Keep up the good work.

dangerfield

The bickering is reminiscent of two long time marrieds who have settled into a daily routine of repeating the same insults and accusations to the point of meaninglessness...

So what are you? The nosy neighbor who likes to peer into the neighbors window to watch them fighting?

ksw62118..........I was just thinking the same thing......did she REALLY just say that?

JoAnnaSimth1

dangerfield, you seem to want to stay above the fray, comment on the commenters, and little else. That may work well at the UN, but not here. What are your opinions on the daily events?

Well, you've gotta give Dangerfield some credit: He actually induced me into agreeing 100% with something you wrote. And you expressed the reasons for your annoyance with the holier-than-thou attitude better than I did, too.

Bill Farifax VA:

JoAnna, you sure know how to bring out the worst in these people. Keep up the good work.

But Bill always manages to bring out the worst in himself with nobody's help at all.

He actually induced me into agreeing 100% with something you wrote.

Who can EVER forget little dangerfield threatening to 'knock your teeth down your throat' Houston?

A leopard don't change his spots... Even if he's feverishly attempting to re-invent himself! lol

The problem with JS1 and Bill is they see things in simple terms--the way I read their comments is: the WI public workers are freeloaders and do not pay taxes, just lay them all off and be done with it. Think a bit about that. If the workers are laid off, the state will have to pay unemployment benefits; they will lose those workers tax revenues creating an even bigger budget problem for Gov Walker and his band of merry mischief makers.

It is not the Badger democrat 14 who created this impass, it is a republican Governor who has dug in his heels because compromise is unacceptable. The public worker unions have agreed to Walker's monetary demands solving the governor's budget problem--why then does Governor Walker refuse to budge? Compromise apparently is something Walker does not understand. Any legislator, governor or president who does not understand that compromise gives us the best of both sides is not fit to be a legislator, governor or president. The democrat 14 will compromise with Gov Walker but he chooses instead to threaten the workers with the loss of their jobs; he is trying to intimidate all Wisconsin citizens by the threats he is making. In my view, Gov Walker is the coward because he cannot admit that he is wrong on one point.

Jody...you're hilarious!!!!!

JS1 and Bill see things in simple terms............WOW Jody,......how do you see things.....in complexly convoluted terms?..........LMFAO!!!

Who would you like him to compromise with?....the minority? The people of Wisconsin elected him to do exactly what he's doing....I say GO GOV. WALKER.....we, here in America, don't negotiate with terrorist.

btw.....it's sort of like Obama NOT compromising on healthcare, huh?

Houston, can you honestly not see a difference between showing up and voting no or hiding out in another state, hoping from hotel to hotel every few hours in order to avoid debating, let alone voting at all?

The Gang of 14 and Walker have taken exactly the same position from opposite sides so why is one a brilliant political move and the other a dictatorial power grab? The dems are in it for personal gain. Walker is in it for the best interest of the whole state. But apparently those of us who foot the bill shouldn't have a say in the matter, at least not according to your side.

Thank you Anna Molly!

My daughter is a teacher for the visually impaired (majority of her students also have multiple disabilities).

She is on call to students and their parents 24/7 - 365 days a year!

When she was home for the holidays two years ago Christmas Eve at 11:00 pm her phone rang, not only did she ANSWER it, she also followed up on Christmas day to make sure everything was alright!

One things for certain, she didn't go into teaching to become rich, but what she lacks in monetary wealth she's more than compensated knowing she's making a difference in the life of today's youth, imperfections and all...

They need to eliminate all public schools, too expensive and you can educate your own kids better yourself than some lib union teacher using the Internet.

Not if you're any example, limbaugher.

We can always rely on laumbaughger to be truthful. The wealthy Conservative elites aren't just at war against social programs, or union members, or any other small part of society. Their war is against the entire American way of life as we recognize it.

Thanks for sharing, Anna Molly. I have a niece who is a teacher so I know this is true. I wonder if the entire blog notes that when the teacher stopped at Staples for supplies, it was paid for with her own funds?

Um AM?

Most people have schedules that are basically the same as that poor, pitiful teacher's, with the exception that they work fifty weeks out of the year.

Teachers work ten months, with several week long breaks throughout the school "year".

I once was one of them. Did you know that the union mandated only 200 minutes of "face time" with the students per day? That those minutes counted whether I was teaching, monitoring lunch or recess or hallways?

Three hours and twenty minutes out of a six hour day. I know of no one who can successfully do their core job in that amount of time.

By the way- this week, you stated that you now represent a school board. I certainly hope someone on that board reads this one- you clearly have a conflict of interest that precludes you from best representing your client in any dispute with the teacher's union.

I once was one of them.

Along with a PHD of Economics - lawyer... only thing missing here is Indian Chief!

Given the disdain in her post of education in general - if she really was a teacher, she wasn't a very GOOD one!

Good old NJNB, 'jack' of all trades... master of NONE!

Anna Molly:

Kudos, great post. Teachers are unsung hero's safeguarding and educating our most precious blood - our children. They should be honored and not demonized by people to gain some political points or take money from them to reward those that bought the elections for those in power.

Education is important and must be made available to all people, not just those who have money and can buy it like they do a good steak. We are falling farther behind every day in the global arena of education. Teachers need to be allowed to teach and not be surrogate parents or baby sitters.

The education system does need to be brought into the 21st century and techers need the freedom to teach. They are being bogged down with to many things that have nothing to do with teaching.

I wonder if the entire blog notes that when the teacher stopped at Staples for supplies, it was paid for with her own funds?

I don't think it was mentioned, Steeler Fan, but that's what I assumed from my own personal experience and that of friends who still teach. The tax "break" they give teachers for this is nothing but a joke.

Teachers work ten months, with several week long breaks throughout the school "year".

That's pretty much a myth, no joe, when you add in summer curriculum workshops and all the paper correction and planning time that consumes those "long breaks" you're talking about. Besides, I never had any money to do much with those breaks, anyway. Somehow, merchants and landlords never thought to give me any discounts because I deserved to be paid dirt.

I once was one of them. Did you know that the union mandated only 200 minutes of "face time" with the students per day? That those minutes counted whether I was teaching, monitoring lunch or recess or hallways?

Again, total ignorance, no joe, signalling that you really don't know anything about unions and maybe never taught -- at least in a public school. Unions don't "mandate" anything. They bargain over it. School boards aren't forced to agree. Besides, do you think that monitoring lunch or recess or hallways, especially in a large urban school, is somehow NOT work? Then you never really did that, either. I did.

By the way- this week, you stated that you now represent a school board. I certainly hope someone on that board reads this one- you clearly have a conflict of interest that precludes you from best representing your client in any dispute with the teacher's union.

Don't worry, no joe. That was a different firm. I don't represent school boards anymore. And thank heaven. After this past couple of weeks, I certainly couldn't do it in good conscience.

Anna Molly, GREAT. Thanks

limbaughger

Remember,

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."

John Stuart Mill

Job1 Another shining example of resorting to 3rd grade name calling from a liberal.

AM- I consider it mandating when being told that I CANNOT spend more time with my students than is allowed.

I never taught in a large urban school, nor did I ever state that I did. It is a suburban school, with children who do not have the kind of chaotic home lives that make teaching in the cities so difficult. I understand that. . .

However, the CORE job of am teacher is to TEACH. I did not consider monitoring to be by CORE job- I wanted more instructional time with my students, because, quite frankly, the teacher who had my kids for the periods I was on "lesson planning time" was an idiot I would not allow to watch my goldfish.

She had tenure, and taught until last June. Got quite a nice package, despite having consistently low standardized test scores from her students. Trust me, it was SHE, not them.

Unless you believe that handing out worksheets in order to get back to reading Harlequin Romances at your desk is quality teaching.

Besides, i was more than willing to do my lesson planning on my own time.

ksw62118

There is no name calling on my part. I'm just stating a fact.

I call BS on that.

Looking at the exchange between Anna Molly and No Joe above, I am starting to wonder if No Joe really was a teacher - as she said she was before retiring. No Joe also says she has a Ph.D in Economics. So is being a teacher true or just another obfuscation?

no joe just proved she's hasn't been a teacher either, just like all the other professions she's claimed to have been in. no joe, to have been all the professional people you claim to have been, you'd have to be at least 140 years old.

Anna Molly. Excellent post and thank you for adding your own experiences to it. I can attest to the dedication of many teachers. I'll mention this one in particular. The summer before 2nd grade, we moved to a different town in another county. The old school system did not teach phonics; the new school did and I was way behind the students in reading, writing and spelling. My new teacher recognized my problem, spoke to my parents and every day after school, she spent an hour teaching me what I had missed in kindergarten and first grade. I owe that teacher more than I could ever pay her because she cared and was determined to see me succeed. Without her help, likely I would have fallen further and further behind because of that one missing element.

Thanks for admitting it, limbaughger, most on the Right are just dancing around the issue, pretending it's a local Wisconsin issue that even there only affects government workers, a small part of the populations.

The reality is that this is an attack on the rights of ALL Americans, and those on the Right are secretly proud of it. Secretly, because their full agenda won't stand the light of day.

Rush Jr.

That will never happen. The old re-call wheels are starting to roll and 61% of America wants GOV. Walker to back off and leave the unions alone.

What do the people of Wisconsin want? Not the eighty-thousand demonstrators, not the public school teachers that "called in sick" and forced the closure of the schools in Madison, what do the 5.7 million citizens of Wisconsin want? What 61% of Americans want doesn't really matter in the great State of Wisconsin, as it currently is a state issue, not the concern of the general populace of the United States.

Living, this ceased to be an entirely local matter when money came in from out of state in an attempt to create a template that can be used to bust unions throughout the country. It will continue to be a national issue because Conservatives througout the country are coordinating an effort to find some way of stealing the rights of workers.

John, respectfully, you're mistaken. The issue is in the State of Wisconsin, not the nation. While you may see other states attempt the same, including California, where I reside, it is a statewide issue, regardless of whom is funding the process. I'm not a fan of unions, although my wife works in a position that is represented by the SEIU. Private sector unions are one thing, public sector unions are another entirely. California is so woefully underfunded in public sector retirement benefits, that eventually, we the taxpayers of California, or the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp (you and me both) will have to come to the rescue.

I'm not impressed with the argument that there's outside money involved, I'm pretty sure that the demonstrators aren't all from Wisconsin, and I'm pretty sure that I saw some info this morning on MSN regarding the "outside" funding being provided by the national SEIU, as well as various locals that are outside of the State of Wisconsin. If the Koch brothers (they seem to be the boogeyman as near as I can tell) are providing funding, so be it, it's their money to waste/spend. Wisconsin has the right to make it's own decisions, decisions that should be in the best interest of the state. Perhaps they are in a budgetary mess (much like California), perhaps not, but the decision makers are those that reside in the State of Wisconsi, not Iowa, not California.

Thank you for positng your opinion. Each of us is entltled to an opinion, although I disagree with you, I'll try not to be abusive about it (this or any other posting).

Fair enough, Living. As Americans we're entitled to see it differently.

And no one believes you are a real human being, Bobby. Maybe we should ask to see YOUR birth certificate.

This Union busting is counter productive to the recovery they need to focus on jobs, and balancing any budgets they can, this seams to be a political move more than balancing budgets, wrong time to add more problems into the recovery!

If they want to solve the economic problems, this would be A better way!

The States, are in trouble, the people who can not find work are too; the economy is not bringing jobs back fast enough to have A solid recovery, and it could get worse, many more small businesses could go under, etc. they have a deficit problem.

One way to tackel this would be to take around 17 to 20 million people who need it, and pay them 500.00 per week, and take 28% tax from the top not to be refunded to these people for any reason, take out their SS tax and pay that to SS, this would leave them with around 350.00 dollars per week to live on, this would solve the job problem temporarily for two years, while the economy rebounded.

During this two year time frame to save money, and to help fund this, stop giving these people food stamps, and unemployment, and other for the two years, possible they could stop the food stamps for another year, this would stabalize the jobs problem.

the 28% tax they would take from the top should be given to the states, not to be payed back, but with oversight, this money would be around 2.4 billion dollars per week, they could stabilize 3 or 4 states per month, and in so doing would eventually stabilize all the states, and this would be one of the best ways to stabilize the nation, and give the states time to start to plan better to operate within their budgets, all this to be done with oversight.

The other problem is the deficit! with the states stabalized, and the lower class receiving a pay check, the federal government would be in A better position to start to cut waste, and to curb spending, and the increase in sales tax, as the economy starts to recover faster would bring them more revenue, also if they pay these people even if they find work, for two years it would only increase the taxes they collect, and the SS tax and the new demand for business in the market, as some of these people if only 6 or 7 million of them were to find work.

By doing this it could hold crime down! saving money;, it could help the real estate markets, and when this is all over, and the economy is growing, these people would not need near as much assistance, saving more money, they would have allready been helped, as they helped the country as they spent the money to provide for their families.

the other is How to pay for it, not counting the savings on food stamps, lower crime, and all the other benefits, the tax break they, extended to they wealthy, over a ten year period of time would pay for this in full, 17 million people receiving 500 per week would come to 884 billion dollars, it would be less if you figure in the unemployment money, the food stamp money, housing assistance etc., if they ear mark the tax cut for the wealthy for this it would pay for it with money left to implement it with too!

The wealthy would receive much more if the business economy picks up than they would receive on the tax cuts, all the new business would more than make up for those tax cuts! , with the economy going at full throttle, it would be much easier for the government to pay down the deficit, even If they would need to add A vat tax, to get it done, this is one way they could tackel the problems, and help all the country, and the states!!!

Bob-Good point. MSNBC is trying to shape the political "conversation" instead of report on it. The leftwing media just can't admit that Federal and State governments are going broke and no matter how much you "raise taxes on the rich", who, by the way pay 80% of the taxes already, you aren't going to solve the problem without reducing spending. The Obama media also can't admit that our illustrious and coniving President dramatically increased spending his first two years in office to "stimulate" the economy and it backfired. Now he wants to "freeze" spending. The American people, liberal zombies aside, are smarter than Obama gives us credit for and no matter how much MSNBC and other "news" outlets try to control and shape our opinions, we will continue to demand that government tighten its belt just like we have for the past 3 years.

Bob, Earth calling!!! Fox is the network with very little credibility other than with you right idiots. At least MSNBC will research a story and get the facts correct. Those dummies at Fox make so many errors that if they weren't so many stupid people in this country they would be out of business!

No seriously educated person would watch Fox!

Sorry to disagree with you Chuck, but my brother is a newspaper editor and he would tell you all journalists slant the facts to their political leanings. Not that they lie outright but give only a portion of the truth to lead us in a direction. There are very few non-biased journalists in today's world.

Chuck-Well, there you go again! Democrats answer to any opposition is to ridicule, demean or otherwise tell the opposition that they aren't as smart as they are. I am sick and tired of the class warfare you guys invented, tired of demonizing the businesses that employ millions of Americans and contribute far more to charity than any other enterprise. I am tired of the same old sad rhetoric coming from the party with no ideas, only agendas. We need real leadership in this country and the GOP is the only group making the hard decisions right now. Obama, Nancy and Harry have had plenty of time to get the Federal government's fiscal house in order, remember "change you can believe in"? The only change I have seen under 4 years of Congressional rule and 2 years of Presidential rule is a higher unemployment rate, a huge deficit and no real answers. The GOP takes over and tries to address these issues and Democrats go on the rampage. Everyone is going to have to pitch in to help us get back on track and that means cutting spending not increasing the bureaucrats bank account.

Remember, FOX News is the group that admitted, In Court in Florida, that they falsify information, lie, misdirect and micromanage their reporters because the First Amendment allows them to, Via Free Speech.

This is very easily researched and verified, why ANYONE listens to Faux Neuz anymore is surely a wonder, why give your time to admitted liars??

Very true B. Honest, Fox went to court for their right to lie...

That's just sad.

all journalists slant the facts to their political leanings. Not that they lie outright but give only a portion of the truth to lead us in a direction.

Good observation ksw.

While I am no fan of Fox and it is my opinion that they have spread misinformation to rationalize their viewpoints, all news corporations are slanted and biased. As are we all. Substitute journalist for blogger or poster in your text above and you would describe everyone at First Read.

The last time I heard non slanted/non biased facts coming from my TV screen Watson(IBM) was winning Jeopardy. Despite the fact that no human can be truly unbiased, we can all try to be a bit more civil.

Our employees pay 50% of their healthcare premimium and 50% of their Social Security. Asking public union employees to pay 12% and 8% respectively, doesn't seem that absurd to me especially considering their financial situation.

Public unions have had a gravy train for far too long, unions in general have become another arm of the DNC and provide millions of dollars a year to Democrats. Liberals complain about Republicans being in the "back pocket" of corporations so where is their outrage over the lopsided unions?

Jim-They don't think, they just pull out their talking points and start spewing. If they were honest, they would admit that public unions are draining state budgets at an alarming rate, Obama increased the unemployment rate while spending more money in two years than any President before him. If they were honest, they would admit that Democrats took over Congress in 2007 and passed budgets, not Bush. They would admit that passing a huge entitlement program (Healthcare) during a recession was stupid and that the stimulus money Obama pushed on our country failed miserably. They would also admit that almost all of the banks we bailed out have repaid their loans with billions in interest so TARP was actually a success, it kept our financial companies in tact and resulting in a return on that investment. We will never see a return on the money Obama and the Democrats have spent, only mountains of debt that our children and their children will have to pay for.

Rocco, When President Obama entered office, the nation was facing the worst recession since the Great Depression. Or, had you forgotten?

Increased government spending was called for to keep Main Streeet from going bankrupt. Obama saved thousands of jobs - probably yours as well.

The economy is slowly recovering and President Obama has begun carefully cutting spending, trying NOT to shock the country back into collapse.

He's a sensible man whom you treat like dirt. Just once I'd like to see a Republican give President Obama his due for saving the economy.

Amy, I don't see any evidence that he is trying to cut spending. His current budget actually increases spending. If he was serious about spending, he would have proposed losing those 25 pounds, not locking them. If you believe that Obama SAVED the ecomomy, you are delusional. If anything HELPED save the ecomomy, it was the TARP program.

Rocco........ that "someone" was lying! Remember, reagan/bush/bush signed TWENTY deficit riddled budgets that accumulated $11T in debt!! THAT is a FACT!

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo5.htm

And it was ALL deliberate!!!

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/06/tax-cuts-republicans-starve-the-beast-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10054/1037783-109.stm

http://www.dlc.org/print.cfm?contentid=251788

You dont really think the GOP is about jobs do you????

BTW, Obama's first budget came in with a deficit $200B LESS than bush's LAST budget, FY 2009!

"Enough with the spending! Did the incredibly wasteful pork-filled trillion dollar stimulus spending 'create jobs'?"

Apparently, yes, because the economy has begun to recover.

Did you know there will be more jobs than people to fill them in 2018? You never hear that mentioned in the so-called "liberal media", but its true. Due to the improving economy and the retiring Baby Boomers, there will be more positions than workers to fill them. Also, we will be struggling to find enough workers with higher levels of education, which is why President Obama has been focused on improving our schools, increasing spending on Pell grants, etc. This is what forward thinking people focus on. We have to prepare for the future. (If the nation had listened to Jimmy Carter in 1976, we'd be off oil by now.)

Funny fact: The REPUBS under Bush passed that bill!

Did you predict that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi would take over both houses of Congress in 2007? Did you predict that when Nancy Pelosi said "No new deficit spending, pay as you go and unlimited opportunity for Amercans" that she would add more to the National debt than the first 57 speakers of the House combined (over 5 trillion dollars). Did you predict that Obama would be miserable failure on foreign relations and improving unemployment? Did you predict that we would be worse off two years into Obama's administration than we were before? I wonder what your next prediction will be: The bankruptcy of America? Public unions riots much like those in Greece? A socialist style of government where we take from the rich and give to the poor?

Did You PREDICT that the Republicans would do nothing but obstruct? HMM....

Matthew----from your lips to God's ears!!! I guess the egos of the Republicans make them want to see the 2008 elections as a mandate for budget cuts but I think they are wrong. I hope the Democrats see it as a lesson about voter turnout---mid-term elections matter as we are now seeing.

Matthew - Would love to see your link proving what you predicted...

That being said, when GW Bush was just a candidate, I predicted that, if he won we would become involved in a war we had no business being involved in (Iraq), the nation would suffer economically (worst recession since the Great Depression), and unemployment and poverty would rise. I also predicted that the 2010 election would result in the House changing to a Republican/TP Inc. party majority and the Senate would lose Democrats but still remain in Democratic control

Got any info on what will happen Dec 21, 2012??? BTW, Independent redneck is a much better story teller than you.

NEWSFLASH-The government doesn't create jobs, the private sector does.

Tell that to the former NASA and NASA contractor employees who lost their jobs when Obama cut some programs.

Houston - lukewarm is correct when he says "The government doesn't create jobs, the private sector does,"

Just follow the money. Government depends on private sector taxpayers and businesses to create the revenue required to fund government workers salaries and bennies + funding for gov't programs. without private sector support no NASA no government sponsered jobs.

Government policy encourages jobs and has since the country was founded. Government investment has spurred economic growth since the National Road, so let me list a few Erie Canal, Transcontinental Railroad, the Homestead Act(damned socialism, giving people free land), WPA, Tennessee Valley Authority developing a whole area, the GI Bill (more damned socialism, giving people free educations), the Federal Highway System, the whole space race, the internet, a government invention. The notion is that the market alone creates jobs is Milton Friedman fantasy.

irish radical - funding was still created by the private sector for all programs you stated except part of the homestead act. The part where the government stole the land from the variety of indian tribes to encourage expansion west. Damned government imperialism!

Wake up:

It has never been more clear that Liberals and their fervent supporters have completely lost their mind. Why would an article ask the question "jobs and not cuts"? The two are linked, because high taxes hurt job creation in the private sector

It's time for YOU to wake up. Taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years. Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy resulted in a huge deficit, nearly a second Great Depression, but no jobs at all.

Wake up - just cutting the budget does no good unless you couple the cuts with increasing revenues. With all of the tax breaks we have seen over the last 10 years, we should NOT have any problems with job creation.

But yet we do.

Could it be that cutting TAXES deeply - one of the sources of revenue for our Government - was NOT such a good idea?

Cuold it be that your RIGID ideaology may be WRONG and that you will have to admit that you have been following a LIE?

Could you even admit it if you were confronted with irrefutable proof that your ideaology is incorrect?

As there is with anything, we need to have a BALANCE. I have no problem with tax cuts and spending cuts if the make SENSE to do, and if they are done in a manner that will HELP and not harm.

Pietro:

As there is with anything, we need to have a BALANCE.

A few months ago, I left a post here acknowledging that I think that at some times in the past, taxes have been too high. I asked the right wingers here if they would also acknowledge that taxes can be too low. All I got for that in response was a lot of incoherent ranting, but never a straight answer.

Since taxes are the lowest they've been in 60 years and since we do have a huge budget deficit that needs to be addressed, I believe that we are in fact in a time when taxes are too low. We may need spending cuts, too, but they simply are not going to be sufficient on their own to solve the deficit problem unless we're willing to see the U.S. become a Third World country.

Houston - after looking at the 2010 budget (on wikipedia, if anyone else wants to take a peek), I think that the taxpayer revenue - as shown - is probably correct for the budget and what was spent. However, the Corporate tax revenue was at $800 BILLION - almost 1/4 LESS than the revenue from the taxpayers. The question I asked then, and I ask now - why is that? The Corporate Tax Revenues should be at on par with or greater than that Taxpayer revenue, at a minimum.

With that rationale, I would agree that the revenue stream is not robust enough and that the revenue part of the budget equation needs to be bolstered.

In other words - we are not collecting ENOUGH Corporate Tax Revenues to sustain the economic model we are a part of. I do believe that the individual taxpayer is tapped out.

If these two identified sources are not enough, then we need to find NEW revenue sources and quickly.

Pietro,

"THE LAW OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES"

Corporate taxes are 33% federal plus state taxes. If a company pays a dividend the person reflects it at a qualified rate of 15%, so a company makes $1.00, they pay Uncle Sam $0.33 and the dividend could be $0.67 and the person pays (15%); $0.10 . As a percentage that's more than we pay.

Our problem is Jobs... The USA has one of the top 3 highest corporate rates in the world (Japan, Germany and USA). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg Higher Corporate rates WILL push more jobs overseas, due to the fact that EPS are after tax. If they leave the $$ outside the US, EPS is reported after the rate paid, not the US rate. Profits made overseas will be continued to be kept overseas...second, if they declare more income on goods made in another county, their EPS will go up and stock price may follow and again the $$ don't return for USA investment , but are invested in another country... Lower corporate rates are a good thing...

teo, you cite published rates, not actual collections. Take Exxon, for example, they paid zero taxes and actually collected $160,000,000.00 in 'tax refunds' in 2009 despite having billions in profits. The right wing keeps touting us as having such a high tax rate but never look at the loopholes that allow corporations and the rich pay less as a percentage of their income or zero taxes. The right also point out that the rich pay more as a percentage of taxes collected but neglect to tell you that they also pay less as a percentage of their income. They are not lying, they are just misrepresenting the facts to come to an erroneous conclusion that is being swallowed whole by people who do not take the time to check out the facts.

matthew please provide us a link to exxons P/L statement for 2009 from which you derive your numbers.

Should it be their fault that the politicians (L & R) have made loopholes available. Since you are from an oil state how about telling us from non'oil producing states the costs of drill baby, drill along with the frequency of dry wells and licensing costs.

Since exxon-mobil is a multinational, revenue earned overseas is not taxable in the US until it comes back to the US.

Corporate Taxes...

Matthew, You have a good point... I can't speak for Exxon... My company paid the following in 2009 ...$36 Mil sales...$1.22 mil income...$433 K income taxes... 35.5%. Yes... we used a large national accounting firm which understands all of the loopholes to do our taxes... Of the $787K left...$250K went to new capital equipment, $730K for bank principle payments...funded by net income, depreciation and reduced inventory...

Give me the money!

Spent $787 billion in stimulus. 3.4 million jobs...YEH! $787,000,000,000 divided by 3,400,000 jobs equals $231,000 cost per job!...say it lasts two years, that still $115K year per job...You would have gotten more by giving every person in the USA $2,500 to spend! If the average pay is around $50K a year, it should have been 7.5 million jobs for two years!

Teo,

Looks pretty stupid when you do the math. They're not "creating" jobs at all, they are simply buying votes with our money.

Our interest charges on the Federal debt amout to 4 billion a day. That's 1 TRILLION, 460 BILLION per year before we have spent one dime on anything. This problem is the greatest threat to our entire country, and our "President" fails to do anything about it.

That 60 Billion that the house wants to cut from Obama's budget amounts to just 3.6% of that budget.

Just 3.6%

If we can't cut even that little bit, what hope is there for any of us??

Like I said, its one example. There are many more. Please do some research.

teo-359675

Spent $787 billion in stimulus. 3.4 million jobs...YEH! $787,000,000,000 divided by 3,400,000 jobs equals $231,000 cost per job!...say it lasts two years, that still $115K year per job

You're math is a bit simple minded. Some of those jobs that were saved were those of cops, who were on the job preventing crimes that would have had high costs in property and lives had those cops been laid off. Other jobs saved were those of firefighters and other public sector workers who perform vital services that save taxpayers' money. Some private sector jobs were in infrastructure building like roads and rail lines, which are necessary to keep the economy functioning at something above a Third World level.

Had it not been for the stimulus bill, TARP (nearly paid off), and the "bail out" of the auto companies (now making a profit) we'd very likely be in the depths of the Second Great Depression.

You would have gotten more by giving every person in the USA $2,500 to spend!

Actually, about 25% of the stimulus DID give money to everyone in the form of tax cuts and tax credits. So if the stimulus didn't work to your liking, you can't pretend that tax cuts, the Republicans' preferred method of solving all problems, worked any better than the rest of it

job1 and houston - the math is still valid for showing government waste vs what it was supposed to do.

No doubt that the auto bailout prevented a massive job lose in the US, but since many liberals think that every $1 spent on unemployment returns $1.64 to the economy perhaps it would have been better for GM and Chrysler to fail on their own. After all Ford is still chugging along without filing for bankruptcy.

Fanny and freddy are still problematical on returning any type of profit to the taxpayers.

Nice misdirection on the protective services angle, Houston. Protective services should always be the last to be cut. other government workers can go first. I don't mind waitimg a little longer to pay my taxes or get a license or even to have students class size increase.

I did notice that GDP went up 4th qtr 2009 but promptly declined in 2010, apparently job growth was but a flash in the pan. Rather make me wonder if government employment is figured into the GDP?

The contention of Obama's bailouts saving America from a Great Depression reminds me of the story of the salesman selling tiger repellent in Illinois.

When asked if it truly works, he replies: " well, you don't see any tigers do you??"

You don't see the Great Depression, do you??

Nice try at revisionist history, Edward.

The entire world banking system days away from collapse.

700,000 jobs being lost per MONTH.

Most of the American auto industry insolvent.

But if you say it wasn't a big deal why consider the evidence?

Hannah, it is true that there are many paid trolls on here from the right. The first clue is that they post a derogatory response to every single post that a liberal posts, the second clue is that they repeat the same debunked right wing talking points and lies. The third clue is that they always have some kind of personal knowledge of every single blog subject or have a friend or family member who is an expert. Another clue is that, when presented with facts that prove them wrong, they either ignore those facts or attack the person who proved them wrong.

Also, as a grain of salt for the above, consider that there are many who post here who have retired or have their own businesses and are able to legitimately post quite a lot. Others, like myself, have positions that have times that are quite busy and times that are quite slow and post accordingly. Having been here for quite some time (for over 3 years), I have gotten to know many of the posters on here. While I have no direct knowledge of who is a troll, I use the above to guide me in that decision and post accordingly.

I did not post a bio because it is none of anybody's business and I prefer to keep some anonymity/privacy. My first name really is Matthew and I really do live in Houston but because of the vile and threatening things many on the right have said, I do not want them to know who I really am and open myself up to personal attack outside of this forum. Many of the people who I work with are conservative and while most are good, decent people, there is that fringe element that could possibly cause problems for me in my job.

So, Hannah, welcome and enjoy your time here. Know that you will need a thick skin but that you will hear some very interesting, crazy and funny stuff here.

Hannah - there are many posters that will do what I call the 'swoop and poop'. They swoop in - usually under a name they JUST set up - and drop their vitrolic load on whatever the topic is (the poop) - and then disappear. They are never around to answer any rebuttals or to have any sort of conversation.

These are also the ones, I believe, that target and collapse posts of people they don't agree with.

Since this IS the internet, many of us have NOT filled out our profiles because of the reason(s) stated above in Matthew's post.

I also have been here for a little over 2 years, and if you want to see what I have been posting, you can do by clicking on my moniker (Pietro) and under that moniker it has a record of EVERYTHING I have posted going back at least 2 years.

Welcome and good luck.

hannah - welcome, since you are a stated independent I do hope that you will bring interesting points to discuss and a balance to the topics at hand, I believe that you will find pietro to have some interesting points of disussion.