You beat me to it! IMBD!

This doesn't have anything to do collective bargaining rights...

It's ALL about the Koch Brothers getting a 'return' on their investment!

RECALL Governor Walker!

NO......public employees should not have the right to collective bargaining......period!!!

Can we recall feisty?...btw...who's paying for those 14 state senators to hold up in another state feisty?....do you care about that?

Yes, RECALL Governor Walker and fire the Koch Brothers.

@ True ~ They're paying for themselves. Why don't you just look it up first, instead of trying to make an ignorant, uninformed accusation out of it?

Or did you?

Anna if their paying for themselves,why do they need collective bargaining?

Wow stormer, pay attention

ANNA wasn't alking about the public workers, she was responding to TA about who was paying for the Senators to be out fo state. Try READING. It works.

The Party of Cowards. (democrats) Another set of Democrats leave their Post so they dont have to do their Jobs and actually Vote.

Indianna Democrats just as much Cowards as those in Wisconsin. More to come people.

So when you are left with no recourse, like most of these senators, it's cowardly to step away from the process knowing there will be censure and possible fines when you come back?

Then it was cowardly for the the Republicans to put annonymous holds on bills in the Senate? Same basic I dea. " I don't like this bill, but I'm not going to stand up and say so, I'll just put this hold on it and pretend it wasn't me."

Words like cowardly should only be used in the face of dangerous situations, I.E. running away in from combat adn the like. One persons cowardly action, is another stand of courage.

From the department of "ain't that the sad pathetic truth": "One persons (sic) cowardly action, is another stand of courage."

Thanks for shining the light Brian. Well said.

But I do wonder Brian. The "runners" are democrats. Democratic principles, like elections, voting, being a part of a representative governing body seem to be lost on them. Running seems a might un-democratic, no?

Spanky,

SO is scheduling a bill in such a way that NO disccusion can happen on it. At least that is what you claimed the Dems were doing with Health Care right? The Republicans HAD to take the actions they did to force a discussion. Meanwhile, these Dems are doing what they HAVE to do to force a discussion. I do not see a major difference beside what letter comes after their name.

Let’s see, to believe the Liberal line of "reasoning", you have to believe that the Wisconsin state budget is in just peachy shape (it isn’t), you have to believe the Democratic state senators are noble in their adventure to run away across state lines to avoid doing their job (they’re not, they are in fact cowards), you have to believe that state union workers are paying their fair share into their pensions and benefits packages (they’re not), you also have to believe that lying to your employer saying that your “sick” so you can go protest and continue to take paid sick days is the ethical thing to do (it isn’t), and you also have to believe that doctors can examine you outside the state capital of Wisconsin and write you an excuse for your phony illness, even though you aren’t sick and they didn't really examine you, is the moral thing to do (it isn’t), and lastly, you as a teacher have to explain to the children you abandoned to go on a wildcat strike that you’re “Doing it for the children” (you aren’t, you’re doing it for yourself).

Lie, upon lie, upon lie. A house of cards, soon to collapse.

I know Libs, I know. It's the Koch brothers fault.

Awww Brian, the "discussion" is over. It's voting time.

Think it through Brian - is this how it's going to go from here on out on all votes? One side usually loses, so how does anything ever get done? The major difference is the Republicans fought healthcare. They lost. They didn't run away, they stayed and took it. They then used it to get elected in large quantities and are now "fixing" the situation.

You get the very big difference right Brian?

This comment is for True American.

First question. How is it that you're True American, and that makes the rest of us what? Do you paint yourself in red, white, and blue every morning? Just curious, because I consider myself a True American--and I am --I've lived my life well, in service to others, I'm a Mom (daughter is 25 and attending a (Public) University. I don't make much money--never have, so my payments into Social Security don't leave much. But since I've been working since I was 16, have 2 degrees, (which my parents paid for half the first one)...

I've voted, helped with campaigns, given blood to the Red Cross.

I just want to know how you can think of me as a welfare rat, when not only do I pay a teensy weensy bit of my own salary (you know, taxes) just like everybody else. Everyone else (mostly county) can pitch in to the tune of:

$35 a year. Oh, wait, that's for the whole library district's expenses. Ok, hold on... 35 x.66 (personnel%) =23.1 You can mitigate those costs by signing up for a library card (first one free) and checking out a movie, book, cd, look up databases for real facts, or even check out your favorite Bill O'reilly book.

I'd call that a bargain every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

The head librarion around here just retired. She got a "pretty" good deal. I am very jealous.

But I can assure you it was not such a good deal for our city. In fact she is the new poster child for public employees gone wild, so there is that.

JoannaSmith--

Sorry to disturb your sanctimonious, emotional rant, but your black/white view of our democratic process leaves quite a bit out.

Like the right to assemble, the right to collectively bargain (for lots of things), the right to "a fair day's pay for a fair day's work"--

If it were only about "government employees" (can you be more specific? Federal, State, County?) I could just let you get yourself worked up in a lather,

But you see, if the protesters fail and get run roughshod over by the Governator and his rich, fundie friends, all of our Rights are compromised.

Let me say that again: All of our Rights are Compromised.

Think about it.

LL: Let me say that again: All of our Rights are Compromised.

This is what happens when the money drys up LL. What do you want, the keys to an empty bank account? You can assemble all you want, you can collectively bargain all you want. If the money isn't there, it really doesn't matter.

Spanky,

do you understand that, unlike the US. Senate, the Wisconcin Senate has no filibuster rules? There are no Rules in place for the Minority to Slow down a bill and fight a huge majority like the Repbulicans have. No there wasn't discussion. If you bother to listen to the sequence of events, you'd know that.

Bill came out on a Monday, With out informing the Democrats it was coming. Vote was scheduled for a thrusday at 5:00. 4 days to read a 140 page bill. Dems had no way to request more time. Vote began being taken at 4:55, while the Dems were in a caucus meeting. Dems managed to stall the vote on a procedural method, then left when they saw what tactics the Republicans were using.

You call that discussion? That is not discussion, that is worse than anything the Dems did on Health Care, and the Minority has less options. They took the one they had. They are fighting with the only option they have left.

SOunds like what you claimed the Repbulicans were doing in the Senate.

JoAnna: Let's see...

The budget - Didn't the governor just increase the budget or give tax breaks which contributed to the shortfall?

Democrats running from their duty - What duty? To act as a rubber stamp for a bill with which they disagree but which they are not allowed to debate?

Workers paying thier fair share - They have agreed to pay the money. The protest is now about collective bargaining.

Doctors and sick days - You're telling me you have NEVER called in sick when you really weren't? EVER?

Doing it for the children - Standing up for your principles and your rights and your freedoms seems like a pretty good civics lesson to me. Would you rather tell children that they have no business protesting when their rights are being abridged?

Brian:

So what you're saying is these so-called "I'm smarter than you" Liberals could not read 140 pages in 4 days? Instead of reading and preparing to vote yes or no, they were in a CAUCUS meeting???? A Caucus meeting??????

The only thing that will come out of this, the Republicans will become more hardened and the Democrats will not get shiznit.

I guess everytime a vote comes up they don't like; they will run away like little .....es.

fielden - You certainly are a hoot. I guess the truth doesn't matter to you either.

You Libs can't run and hide anymore fielden. You've been exposed for what you are, a bunch of liars that want to invalidate the last election. The public unions have bilked the taxpayers for too long fielden, and now it's time for them to pay their fair-share. But the representatives of these unions, the bought and paid for (with campaign contributions) senate Democrats are nowhere to be seen. They can't vote if their not where they're supposed to be, right fieldon? When are they coming home fielden?

Yeah, it's for the children alright, the bills they'll have to pay if the unions get their way.

BfS: You call that discussion? That is not discussion, that is worse than anything the Dems did on Health Care, and the Minority has less options. They took the one they had. They are fighting with the only option they have left.

No, no it's not worse. Not at all. This isn't the Democrats "fighting". You have to show up to have a fight. They ran, like cowards, away from their jobs. It wasn't very pleasant watching the Dems steamroll their agenda through the US Congress, but the Republicans didn't run away, they took it, elections have consequences you know.

So don't give us this nonsense that the Democrats in Wisconsin are some how "fighting" anything. This isn't how democracies work.

JoAnnaSmith1: I'd have to say you didn't get much worth for your education. Your English is wrong. Bad punctuation, bad grammar. I guess that's why you're against the teachers. They obviously failed you, so shame on them.

Ralph, that pretty lame to counter argue during a debate with attacks on grammar. Why don't you stick with substantive arguments from now on? Do you have any valid arguments?

Way to go Joanna. Don't respond, just raise the volume of your same arguments. And throw some name-calling in for good measure.

That's OK, it's about what I expected...

JS1: Sorry your just a party hack with no real arguments.

IMT:

Lets see, they need to read a 140 pages of legalize, research the issues, and, essentially write a five to 10 page paper, all in four days. No I don't think either you or I, or any other person could pull that off.

As to the second part of your riff.. Yes a Caucus meeting, where they were more than likely trying to discuss their strategy before the vote. That was scheduled at 5:00 but the Republicans began at 4:55.

Have a strategy meeting prior to a controversial vote is extremely common,to ensure everyone is on the same page, and hitting the same points. That the repbulicans went forward with the vote 5 minutes early is the crime, not that the Dems were in a pre-scheduled meeting. You are such a farce.

Alright- leave Ms Palin out of this....

it takes 2 redheads to get it said !

;o)

If I wasn't maried, I'd happily take two red heads. :)

See how Trenton ,N.J. delt with the police and firemen's unions when they refused the give an inch they fired half of them,so you 50% need to rethink you Union wannabees and stop whinning if you have a job.Collective bargianing helped them out of a job.

Virginia was 10th in the nation in the SAT, with 59,573 public and private high school graduates taking the tests. About 51,000 of them attended public schools

You are just an out-and-out LIAR!

True ~ still lower than Wisconsin, whose numbers by the way, are held up by the VERY high scores in this heavily unionized, heavily-public-sector-employed, liberal pocket where I live.

Now here's a funny thing ... some analysis of Mike's numbers that still puts Virginia in the middle of the pack. It also includes some interesting analysis that tries to explain away why Wisconsin might have higher ACT/SAT scores than places like Virginia and Texas ...

http://studentactivism.net/2011/02/21/teachers-unions-actsat-and-student-performance-is-wisconsin-out-ranking-the-non-union-states/

But there's another problem. Most of the states that don't have teachers' unions are poorer than Wisconsin, and have more English Language Learners in their schools, and rank higher for other demographic factors that make strong academic performance less likely. Rich kids in a school with a teacher's union will do better than poor kids in a school without one, generally, but that doesn't have much to do with the union itself. States with teachers' unions do better, on average, than states without, but is this because of the unions, or state demographics?

Well, duh. And Exactly WHY does one suppose that state demographics are what they are?

Could it just be that having ... unions ... generally makes the richer states richer - or at least contribute to it -- and not having unions makes the poorer states poorer, leading to higher achievement in education in the richer states?

Sheesh.

AM

"Most of the states that don't have teachers' unions are poorer than Wisconsin, and have more English Language Learners in their schools"

The difference is that other poorer states have to spend time and money educating students that have English as a second language. Try teaching a kid math when they don't understand English. So tell me again if we have 10% unemployment and 20% underemployment why are we even discussing an amnesty for illegal immigrants?

We have lots of immigrant workers here in Wisconsin, Alan, being largely an agricultural state -- Mexicans, Vietnamese, you name it. We also have lots of ESL issues. By and large, because we recognize the value of education here, we bite the bullet and cope with it. Until Scott Walker came along. By the way, since when did Virginia become a border state? Or South or North Carolina. Or Georgia? Cry me a river, Alan.

Don't try to make this about immigration. I'm not for illegal immigration, either. But if you insist, amnesty would at least make the illegal immigrants pay their taxes into a fund that could be used to pay SS benefits. Right now the taxes collected from illegal aliens are put into the general fund, where it can be, and has been, raided by Congress.

Now ask yourself who is hiring all the illegal immigrants, and thereby inviting them to come here. Democrats, do you think? Or republicans? From what I've seen, and I've seen some, I think republicans.

Hypocrisy within a Republic.

5 States have made collective bargaining illegal. Their rankings on ACT/SAT are as follows:
South Carolina: 50th
North Carolina: 49th
Georgia: 48th
Texas: 47th
Virginia: 44th

Wisconsin: 2nd

Here are some real statistics, the only problem is that they do not agree with what you said.

http://www.act.org/news/data/10/states.html?utm_campaign=cccr10&utm_source=data&utm_medium=web

ACT scores in the Milwaukee Public Schools, the schools where many of the wildcat striking teachers came from, have an average ACT score of 15.8.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Source: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/101592798.html

I do SO agree, JoAnna. Let's start with yours.

And let's see ... Ah. ALL of the students in Milwaukee took the test, rather than the 22 percent cherry-picked in, say ... Virginia (according to MBeaty's numbers, anyway).

http://www.weau.com/home/headlines/100963504.html

And despite those low numbers in Milwaukee, Wisconsin still ranks among the highest states in the country, despite the fact that nearly every school district is unionized. Still tied for third, matter of fact, with Iowa and Minnesota, in states where at least 50 percent of students took the test. In states where fewer students took the test, why is that, do you suppose? Because the ones who didn't would have done better and gotten into a better school?

That's a no joe sort of argument.

But I don't think teachers' unions are the reasons why Milwaukee is failing -- more like the fact that Milwaukee is now one of the poorest, most segregated cities in the US, and Milwaukee schools are badly underresourced, considering all their problems. To emphasize that point, the average at the only other school district in the state where everyone took the test, which is a relatively affluent school district in this area, was 22.4.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/article_e1a9af02-aa5f-11df-a9ff-001cc4c002e0.html

Otherwise, what explains the consistently high scores in our heavily unionized little burg? 24.2 in 2010, with the three high schools nearest where I live, including Middleton, all over 25, and all with very strong teachers' unions.

Just smarter folks, do you think? Or what?

Give it a rest, JoAnna. Until the facts catch up to you.

Here are some real statistics, the only problem is that they do not agree with what you said.

Actually, they do, if you read them right, as my post above establishes.

The advantage of a GOOD education, I suppose. So sorry, MBeaty.

Here are some real statistics

Darn it, AM, we forgot only republicans have REAL statistics...

I just created my account, so I apologize in advance if this shows up as a double post, but:

And let's see ... Ah. ALL of the students in Milwaukee took the test, rather than the 22 percent cherry-picked in, say ... Virginia (according to MBeaty's numbers, anyway).

I'm guessing you did not know this, but outside of the Midwest, ACT scores are not important. Virginia is no more "cherry picking" than New York, California or Massachussets (I'm sure you didn't look at their statistics). Most schools outside of the Midwest ask for SAT scores and ignore ACT all together.

To state that the statistics are invalid because Virginia is only having its best students take the ACT, or "cherry picking", is blatantly false. Students who wish to open up additional college options, particularly in the Midwest, would take the ACT. Students who are focussing on state schools, or Ivy League schools for that matter, would take the SAT only.

AM: I do SO agree, JoAnna. Let's start with yours

AM: Give it a rest, JoAnna. Until the facts catch up to you.

My AM, why so bitter today? All this lashing out, quite unbecoming.

You're just not your usual care-free happy-go-lucky self today. Problems?

Sigh. This gets so tiresome after a while. I guess YOU don't know that Wisconsin also does VERY well on the SAT -- just about the same national ranking, as a matter of fact -- despite a number of economically disadvantaged students who, contrary to your theory, apparently, also take the test. They do better than the national average, too.

http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009/08/25/state-sat-scores-2009.aspx

http://dpi.state.wi.us/eis/pdf/dpinr2010_116.pdf

The 3,002 Wisconsin graduates who took the SAT during high school tend to be higher achieving and from higher income families. In Wisconsin, 70 percent of SAT-takers report that they are A-students. About 21 percent of Wisconsin’s SAT participants report family income above $120,000. The achievement gap is quite large between the lowest income students, those from families earning less than $20,000 per year, and the highest income students, whose family income exceeds $200,000 annually. Among higher-income students who took the SAT in Wisconsin, scores averaged 75 points higher than those for lower-income students. Students of color represent 16.9 percent of the state’s SAT-takers. Their SAT scores, while lower than for white students in the state, were more than 70 points higher on each test than their peers nationally.

Thus, proving my point elsewhere about the reason why Milwaukee students score lower on the ACT than the rest of the state, as well.

Students who are focussing on state schools, or Ivy League schools for that matter, would take the SAT only.

Personally, I took both tests and did quite well on both -- better on the SAT, in fact, than on the ACT. As I understand it, the ACT has recently come back into favor, and is now the preferred test for many colleges.

But as Wisconsin students tend to do extremely well on both, even when throwing in the disadvantaged students, what's your point?

No, I'm happy as a clam, JoAnna, and thanks for asking,

You?

AM: No, I'm happy as a clam,

Good to hear! We've missed you're sweet disposition and positive outlook on life! I'm just so glad to hear you're all peachy!

You point out that 3,002 Wisconsin students took the SAT and did well, yet you acuse Virginia of "cherry picking"? Choose one or the other, please. Either Virginia's performance on the ACT is valid, or Wisconsin's performance on the SAT is invalid. You can't have both.

I'm not saying Wisconsin has a poor education system - they actually have one of the best. Whether due to unions, as you claim, or for some other reason, I don't know, and couldn't care less. I was merely pointing out that your accusation of "cherry picking" was false.

For me, I didn't bother with the SAT. I'm a Midwesterner, and never intended to go to school outside of the Midwest. My high school had poor union representation, one of the smallest budgets in Illinois, yet had an average ACT of 28 in the year I graduated. Were the scores better or worse due to the lack of strong union representation? I doubt it.

Please read this.... Your Gov. Walker is owned by Koch and this is thier plan....

The fight in Wisconsin is over Governor Walker's 144-page Budget Repair Bill. The parts everyone is focusing on have to do with the right to collectively bargain being stripped from public sector unions (except for the unions that supported Walker running for Governor). Focusing on this misses a large part of what the bill would do. Check out this language, from the same bill (my bold):

16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).


The bill would allow for the selling of state-owned heating/cooling/power plants without bids and without concern for the legally-defined public interest. This excellent catch

Your attack is wrong on so many levels. At least the unions disclose where their money comes from and to which candidates they donate. You can't say the same for corporations and the US Chamber of Commerce. At least you have the right to rail against the unions. You may not have the same right against Target, because they don't have to tell you to whom they donated money from the products you purchased there. And if you want unions out of politics, are you willing to keep corporations out, also?

Here's the thing about "compulsory dues," Bobby. If you join my union, I won't make you pay any dues, and I'll let you share in all the benefits I am able to bargain for you and my fellow union members.

Just DON'T come crying to me when something goes wrong, and they're trying to fire you. I have seen that WAY too many times. Sort of changes a person's attitude about their union real fast, though.

No one wants to pay union dues, Bobby. It's just that it beats the alternative.

And that's not what's bankrupting the taxpayer, as fiscal troubles are EVERYWHERE and not just in the public sector, or in the highly unionized states. And just look at Mike's list to see what your philosophy has given us in public education, as opposed to mine. And Wisconsin's education numbers are highest here in my little liberal pocket, where collective bargaining is celebrated.

@ Mike ~ They haven't done it yet.

Bob: Put down the GOP talking points and come back to us when you have something substantive to say.

Paid posters don't work that way, Grand....

"Paid posters don't work that way, Grand...."

How ironic, though...my huge check from the evil Koch Brothers has mandatory union dues taken out!

Drive By- are there posters other than yourself that are getting paid to post here? Is the ability to participate iin this website part of your collective barganing agreement Drive By? If so, good job. But really your ability to speak about "paid posters" is fantastic. Obviously you are totally in favor, right?

How much do you make an hour? Have you ever calculated the amount of money your employer pays you, as a percentage of your salary, for each post? Is that why you keep them short?

Hey Anna M. how come if you don't want to join the union the union can get you canned? Seems compulsory and anti-democratic, no?

No, Spanky .. that's not how it works. I'm just saying that some people are always happy to take the benefits a union gives them but don't want to pay the dues. They protest and protest, right up to the moment when they get into trouble and they realize that, without the collective bargaining agreement giving them a right to due process and just cause, as well as free union representation, they'd be plum out of luck and out the door. THAT'S the day they really learn to appreciate the union.

Your employees should try it, Spanky. They might just like it, too.

Or is that what you're really afraid of?

Bob,

Union dues are not allowed to be given to ANY political candidate. Unions must set up a political action committee, they also have to ask their members if they would like to put money into that PAC to help fund candidates.

Yea, John.....I'll bet that's always on the up and up.

Trust me TP, I mean TA, if you knew what your heroes (republicans) were doing with your money, you would be as disgusted as I am.

And the other thing Walker doesn't mention is that teacher salaries are already more-or-less capped by statute, and have been for the past 17 years, meaning that the School Boards have had to AGREE to larger increases on those occasions where such increases have occurred.

And they have, of course. Because not everyone hates teachers and some people even see their value.

Walker, on the other hand, is one of those folks who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Good golly I'm just jeolous - those teachers make all that money in just 9 short months. And don't forget about getting every single holiday, half days and my favorite - "preperation" days.

Was the value of a teacher in say 1965 lower than now? How come the pay scale is soooo much better now? How come the students are soooo much worse off now?

Anna are you good with the legislators bailing out? Vote, take the loss and try to us it to get more democrats elected next time. Or just stay away for good, your choice.

Spanky: Good golly I'm just jeolous - those teachers make all that money in just 9 short months

Yeah, you wonder how many of these teachers would have shown up in Madison if this had happened, say, in July. Those teachers would still be angry, angry enough to take a few minutes out of their busy day at the beach to pen a letter, a really harsh letter, to the governor of the state.

To both of you cuddly ignoramuses, most teachers don't get three months off in the summer, and their so-called holidays are tied to the school calendar, meaning that they're not free to take off whenever they like, like private sector employees. I have a friend who is a teacher who started in the middle of August, and will work till the second week of June. Right there, we're down to two months, and during the summer this person will also work several curriculum workshops, read, and perform other tasks relating to preparing for the following year.

Spanky, it's always interesting to me that conservatives, who complain the most about the quality of education, are the first to complain when told that teachers need preparation time. The ones who need preparation time are the ones who do their jobs. If you don't care about that, take away their prep time and see what results you get. Prep time IS work time.

Or don't you suppose lawyers charge for the time it takes to get ready for trial? Or doctors, for the time it takes to prepare for surgery?

I guess maybe you just don't care that much about kids, after all, if you don't mind their teachers being unprepared.

Everyone's value was lower in 1965 than it is today, Spanky. Just ask NFL players. Do you think they would go back to 1965 salaries? And do you really think the quality of play is any higher now than in 1965?

But students are worse off now, to the extent that's true, for a lot of reasons having nothing to do with teacher pay. Otherwise, they'd be worse off EVERYWHERE, and that's just not the case. Check elsewhere on this thread for the statistics from my area on ACT scores. We're not worse off here, despite those horrible teachers' unions, those extravagant salaries, and the teachers' oh-so-decadent lifestyles.

The legislators have to make those decisions for themselves, Spanky. As someone else pointed out here earlier today, it seems no different from the Senate practice of putting secret "holds" on legislation or phony fillibusters, a lot of which we saw in the past two years by your own republican idols.

Not exactly models of legislator integrity, either.

I'm sure you'd recognize a harsh letter when you saw one, JoAnna. After all, it takes one to know one. But if that's what you think, then you REALLY don't know teachers. At least not the teachers in this state. That's probably exactly why Walker chose NOT to drop the ball in July.

And just where do you suppose HE will be in July? Or maybe August. Right there on the beach with Congress. The Koch brothers' beach, probably. Getting a tan with John Boehner.

Anna Molly

Spanky, it's always interesting to me that conservatives, who complain the most about the quality of education, are the first to complain when told that teachers need preparation time.

Ironic, isn't it? The conservatives are usually the first to paint others with the "something for nothing" brush. Seems to me that "something for nothing" is pretty much what the right-wing's wanting. No taxes, no rules, all the gravy.

Listen Spanky, the reason people's salaries have gone up is because things cost more than they did in 1965. Maybe the students are doing so much worse now because there is less money to go around because of our country's gigantic defense budget, or maybe the greedy politicians who have their hands in everyone's pocket and don't care who they're hurting because of that. Those things seem much more out of control to me because no one is monitoring where this money is going.

Whoa. Welcome to the neighborhood, John.

Thanks much Anna

It would be nice if the Northwest Indiana Times would pick this up, but I notice more and more each day that the editors are mostly conservative stooges. They bury the real news from Indi.

They're not, you know. And thanks for calling it out. Good post.

@Wm - WTF (and I don't mean Win The Future)

We in private sector haven't had a raise in the past 3 years. I would love a COLA. Out of interest to teachers get raises based on length of service? From what I understand Federal employees do. So, not only do they get COLA but they also moved up bands based on service. That doesn't happen in the private sector either.

Good post nit wit only problem is where is the money your so freely willing to spend?

Alan ~

So, not only do they get COLA but they also moved up bands based on service. That doesn't happen in the private sector either.

And, to use your words, WTF not? After all, corporate profits are at an all-time high, and so are corporate cash reserves. To put it plainly, they have the money to pay you more and give you better benefits. They just don't want to.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704774604576035791444372756.html

And why is that? Because you have no power whatsoever to persuade them to.

And why is that? Because you have no unions.

And why is that? Because you let it happen.

Don't blame the public sector for the private sector's failures, Alan.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Thank you so much Wm for highlighting your (and maost all libbies') fundamental failure of understanding of how the private sector works.

Newsflash my man most private sector jobs don't have cost of living increases of gaurenteed raises of any description.

Anna Has it right - the boss, or as you all like to say "the man" can give you a raise or not. You no like, it on you to get a different job. As an employer there are many, many reasons why raises, bonus and the like are, or are not given.

But I have to belive you all kind of know that? And good golly Anna Molly is unions are so great why are there so few union folk? Based upon your line of thinking it'd seem everyone should be in a union. But most do not want to be. Why is that?

@AM

That's the whole point I don't blame other people. I get paid what the market can support. If I ask for too much then someone else will come along and do my job for less. Or, as happened to the auto industry, I can get wages negotiated by the union that are above the market but eventually my employer will go out of business.What the public sector hasn't figured out yet is that the market has changed and their services are no longer as valuable because the source of revenue is drying up. You may not think this but the stimulus that saved these jobs for a couple of years will now came back and demand interest payments. Those payments, that could have been used for wages and benefits will no longer be there. You can rant all you want but unions aren't going to bring that money back. The pie has got smaller!! Deal with it.

And BTW if you think giving amnesty to 11m illegals is going raise wages I have bridge to sell you.

Damn. I feel so sorry for all you guys working for jefe. No the boss man doesn't owe you anything. And in times of wealth, prosperity and full employment you can certainly try to change jobs. But these aren't those times - unless of course you are in the top 2 percent of earners in which case you must be singing that old FDR refrain "Happy Days are here again." There is a social contract between all in a society. You stretch to bonds by asking for too much or trying to acquire too much, there are going to be problems. 98 percent can easily tax the crap out of the 2 percent - we don't because we exercise some good sense. But BS from those willing to tolerate the crumbs from the table are surely trying the patience of the rest of us.

Good to hear you are self employed Wm and would never work for EL Jefe. Me neither.

Unless maybe Drive By's boss - he let's Drive By play here all day while on the job. That rocks!

Our own little paid poster. Make us proud Drive By, you owe it to El Jefe.

Well we believe and no the money is gone and not coming back, and you are right the market has changed because we know under G. Bush we gained more MILLIONAIRES in the country and the size of the MIDDLE CLASS shrank drastically, as more illegals did the jobs for a whole lot less, and of course the RICH got RICHER and we know the rest of the story.

Oh no. I have a boss. He's in Florida for 3 months. When last in town, he and his wife took the bus to the opera, and he's too cheap to stock the office with paper towels now that the building switched to hand dryers. And he votes Democrat.

That's because you don't have a union Alan.

Hey, Alan ~ Just what do you suppose the "market will support" when these out-of-control thugs break the backs of all the unions and cram down wages and benefits in the public sector like they did in the private sector?

Do you suppose your wages will go up? Ha. Just ask the private sector pizza guy who supplied the pizza for Ed Schultz when he was in Madison. He may just be a pizza maker, but he sees where all this is going for him ... and up it ain't.

Sure, sources of revenue are drying up. The rich are hoarding the cash. Just how many pizzas can a rich person eat on Friday night, anyway? When the money is concentrated in the hands of the few, they don't spend enough of it. What is it about that that you don't get?

John has it exactly right, Alan. You CAN get fired anytime, and someone else will take your place.

Because you don't have a union.

Isn't that great? It's just LIKE being an illegal immigrant, Alan, and you don't even have to pay for a fake I.D.

But tell me more about the bridge. I happen to collect them.

Don't worry he's just trying to get rid of the bridge the conservatives already sold him. Bad investment man.

No collective bargining is not a constitutional right,you bedwetters need to try and understand what you read,that is if you can read?

It's only a constitutional right for the PRIVATE sector!!

AnaBanana stay in your cabana.

"It is a constitutional right to organize and collectively bargain"

Anabanana, even MSNBC acknowledges that the gravy train for public unions is not written in the Constitution, federal or state

Public employee unions were voluntarily given these privileges by the sovereign State of Wisconsin. It has proven to be bad public policy. The Governor and Legislature now will change the law. You can stomp your feet and hold up Hitler signs , it wont change the reality.

Elections have consequences.

"Citizens United" recognized as a first amendment right the ability for corporations to collectively act. Hence the people through any means they see fit, including unions, have that right also. All of you need to read and stay in toucn.

Bob,

You are sooo right! Elections have consequences. Bend over and kiss your Republican a#$ goodbye!

cedarbud ~ You need your own cabana. The right to bargain is not a constitutional right in the private sector, either. It was established by the National Labor Relations Act. Look it up.

Before that, we had sweatshops and Triangle Shirtwaist Company fires and J.P. Morgan and stuff like that.

I hope you won't mind going back to those sorts of conditions because that's pretty much what you and other conservatives are advocating. When unions no longer exist, there's nothing to prevent it.

Bob ~

Public employee unions were voluntarily given these privileges by the sovereign State of Wisconsin. It has proven to be bad public policy. The Governor and Legislature now will change the law. You can stomp your feet and hold up Hitler signs , it wont change the reality.

Bad public policy based on what evidence, Bob? I said, what evidence, Bob?

It turns out that Wisconsin's economy is better off than most, despite those nasty unions. HERE"s the "reality," Bob.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.

The general recession that caused almost every state to go into fiscal sticker shock was NOT caused by Wisconsin's public employee unions. But they did voluntarily sacrifice last year to try to help solve the crisis that is not their fault. Did you?

But keep it up, Bob. Why would I want to interfere with your delusions. After all, ignorance is bliss. And your mindcontrol masters at FAUX News will be SO pleased with you.

It's not nice to fool "Mother Nature" or debate Anna Molly. When you do, you lose.

Ron, Indiana: It's not nice to fool "Mother Nature" or debate Anna Molly. When you do, you lose.

I see scorekeeper Doc Ron is back in action.

I've got 52-6 Doc Ronnie, Conservatives in the lead!

Cheerleader, scorekeeper, referee, where do you find the time Doc?

So odd - Ron only seems to chirp in when he thinks his side is winning.

Ok Ron - given the goings on in Wisconsin and now Indiana, you still think you got this one?

How about you anna m - you see that this is not going too well, right? I trust you read the FRONT PAGE story in the NY Times?

It's getting ugly guys, mighty, mighty ugly.

Spanky: It's getting ugly guys, mighty, mighty ugly.

I see the Democratic Senators from Wisconsin have some new friends heading their way. It looks like the Indiana state senators are using the same tactic, and running away from their obligations, their duties, their commitments, and their jobs. The money quote from the indystar:

"A source said Democrats are headed to Illinois, though it was possible some also might go to Kentucky. They need to go to a state with a Democratic governor to avoid being taken into police custody and returned to Indiana."

Now I don't think any governor is obligated or empowered to return the nomadic state senators, but it's interesting this reporter thought that a Democratic governor, Pat Quinn from Illinois, wouldn't bother with returning the lost Democratic state senators, while a Republican governor would.

Illinois is looking to be the sanctuary state for other states pols who don't want to do their job. They're already a sanctuary state for illegal immigrants, what's a few more, right?

Sorry AM but HERE is the reality....

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/

... you have to get liberals to read the fine print it seems....

"The confusion, it appears, stems from a section in Lang’s memo that -- read on its own -- does project a $121 million surplus in the state’s general fund as of June 30, 2011.

But the remainder of the routine memo -- consider it the fine print -- outlines $258 million in unpaid bills or expected shortfalls in programs such as Medicaid services for the needy ($174 million alone), the public defender’s office and corrections. Additionally, the state owes Minnesota $58.7 million under a discontinued tax reciprocity deal.

The result, by our math and Lang’s, is the $137 million shortfall."

Spanky ~

It's getting ugly guys, mighty, mighty ugly.

Q. What kind of person gets gleeful when things get ugly?

A. A crazy, mixed up republican. You seem to thrive on the misfortune of others.

Wait till it's your turn. Because it will be, soon enough.

By the way, I've got chaos in Libya and earthquakes in New Zealand on my screen. Is that what you mean by ugly?

CJS ~ Let's accept your interpretation as correct. At the very least it says that revenue shortfalls were not the fault of labor contracts, but rather were tied to specific programs, such as Medicaid. One of the many programs that Walker bungled while he was Milwaukee County Executive, by the way.

According to the Lang report itself, there is a projected revenue shortfall of more than $200 million, with more than half of that attributed directly to the programs approved during the January Special Session. I'd quote it directly but it won't cut and paste directly from that link.

What that says to me is that Walker's tax break programs would cost the state more than $117 million in lost revenue. What's the REAL difference then, between what I said, and what Lang says? Walker blew an unnecessary hole in the budget, however you cut it, and he's trying to fix it on the backs of people who had nothing to do with it and didn't benefit from it.

Either way, give me a reason why public employees should have to pay so drastically for shortfalls in other programs caused by fiscal mismanagement and general economic conditions.

Anna M - A lot of people are running around yelling how Walker had a surplus and made a deficit with tax cuts. That alone is what I was refuting as stated above. The irresponsible media abounds and SO many people just jump at the first thing they hear and repeat it. Not a personal attack on you. With that said...

Walker's budget will not begin until this summer and run until 2013. Therefore what, if any, effect tax cuts or any other policies by Walker will have are yet to be determined. You say his budget will be worse, I have seen nothing on this. Seems WI has been on this path after former Gov. Doyle did manage to get the State debt down to $2.1B. Yet since 2006 it has soared back up to reach $3.5B and I would have to look more into this myself to find the numbers, reasons, etc.

But just what makes Walker such a monster when in 2009 Doyle used similar tactics to reduce the state deficit?

"On May 7, 2009, Doyle controversially announced that the state budget was in such severe straits he was laying off 700 state workers and would lay off another 400 if state employee unions did not consent to the revocation of their contractually-scheduled June 2% raises. He also announced that all state employees would be furloughed for 16 days without pay over the next two years.^[17] His budget also raised property taxes by 4.2% mainly due to cutting state funding for education.^[18]"

Both the Dem and Rep Govenors of WI are having to come down on unions time and again now and the excessive budget deficits they are adding to. So its not so Red vs Blue or black and white. Its a perpetually growing problem everywhere as debts are piling up and becoming unsustainable. So maybe its time to address it.

The economies and wages in all states that have collective bargaining are better than the states that disallow collective bargaining. Period. The states that do not allow collective bargaining (so called "Right to Work" states) have salaries that are, on average, 13% LESS than states that allow collective bargaining. So what does that extra 13% give the states? better schools, more employment because of more disposable earnings, better roads, better public works, LESS UNEMPLOYMENT, lower poverty rates, fewer working people partaking of public assistance programs, higher rates of participation in health insurance, auto insurance and homeowner's insurance (making rates lower overall), LOWER RATES OF FORECLOSURES ON HOMES...in short, that extra 13% makes it better for everyone who lives there than in states that have no collective bargaining.

The logic of forcing LOWER WAGES on public workers when it is the people who have been put out of work because of the recession that are the biggest drain on state economies through revenue loss and needing support just boggles the mind. DECREASING the ability for those who are still working to keep the economy afloat can be seen as nothing less than a drive to the bottom...a concerted effort to sustain a recession as long as possible.

Interesting how, with economic indicators showing a slight nudge upward in growth, a slowing of foreclosures, some rehiring and new orders for durable goods, suddenly the Republican governors have not only signed tax (revenue) reduction legislation, but followed it with an attack on a stable work force.

This is, when one steps back and looks at the bigger picture, a very interesting way to try to manipulate the recession long enough to use it as a tool to gain more seats, more power and perhaps even the White House by pretending Republicans had nothing to do with the loss of jobs and that Obama and the Democrats must be blamed...but America isn't quite that stupid. The public employees who will be facing lower pay, loss of worker's rights and perhaps enough financial stress that they too will fall as manufacturing employees have will not be forgetting who took their jobs and their rights away.

Everyone else who is still hanging on will remember too - just when they thought it was ok to breathe a little easier, that the foreclosures had slowed and their own homes would not lose more value will have the shock of the neighbors with formerly stable employment go belly-up. The businesses that hung on because there was a core of local economies that was stable will fold, adding more fuel to the downward cascade.

In the case of teachers - it costs about $30K at an average public university (not including books, fees and living expenses) to get a Bachelor's Degree in teaching, the average starting salary between $30 and 35K. Add a Master's degree at a cost of $10-15K at the cheapest schools in return for a bump of $6-8K in pay. In a "Right to Work" state, the cost to GET the degree is the same, the pay is still, on average, 13% lower...which explains why the states that HAVE collective bargaining also have better schools, better test scores and better outcomes overall. The push to take collective bargaining away from teachers is a push to poorer outcomes for all our students.

I am stunned to be sitting here watching so many who actually believe that unions - and not THE LACK OF WORK, EDUCATION AND OPPORTUNITY FOR EVERYONE ELSE is the problem! PEOPLE!!! public employees are the only ones who's jobs CAN'T be outsourced overseas! and, at least for now, not be replaced by automation - although keep a watch for the proposals to have your students taught from a computer screen rather than actually attending live human instruction.

How, on God's Green Earth, did so many of you manage to be duped like this???

Thank you, Angela--

Don't forget that we pay in collectively. (maybe it's the word "collective" that freaks them out--hey it's not the Borg)

We pay into the Union (called dues)--they take another $60 dollars more or less out of monthly check --it's based on salary. That way, they take it upon themselves to make sure we're treated with respect and with laws or agreements. Mediation.

If we didn't have a Union for this county library district, I would be either unemployed or miserable--I'm 56 years old, have chronic illnesses, but I'm a very good librarian--I love my job and do it very well. So, I've needed the union for representation to help with FMLA, working through issues with a "crazy boss" without either of us quitting...medical, pay increases (that are bargained for).

Wouldn't it be nice if all kinds of groups of employees had these things? So they didn't have to just take it on the chin each and every time a private (non-union) company decides to sell, downsize, hire a 13 year old, move overseas, or just plain axe your a$$ with a three day notice if you're lucky...

It never fails to amaze me how 1930's everybody gets whenever we the people have to fight for our rights--rights that have already been granted, and help everyone.

Truly bizarre.

What do you know from retirement plans? You can usually contribute what you want, up to a maximum.

But it's never too late to get on the gravy train, Bob. I know teachers here in my state who have already decided to leave the profession because of Scott Walker.

It's obviously not too hard for someone with your intellect, so go for it. We need geniuses like you now.

Bob, why didn't you?

Dude, most likely you didn't get on the "teacher gravy train" because you knew (hopefully from experience--like being a student)-that

teachers get paid a pittance. teachers work very hard all day long with hundreds of ooky or snarky (depends on the grade) germy children every day (and they love them)...

teachers have to take continuing education and are expected to get a Master's Degree at some point

teachers grade papers, go to conferences, make up curriculum during their "free time"

You most likely joined the Private Sector because you figured you could make Way more Money and have a Way cushier life.

Sorry it didn't work out that way, friend. Don't blame the teacher.

You do know what a teacher's salary is right Bob "Spade"? You must not be the sharpest "tool" in the shed.

Sure, they knew the pay and benefits that had already been established through collective bargaining. Not the ones that Walker is proposing now.

Fire everyone and re-hire the best? Good idea. Ought to work well in the private sector, too. Let's do a little experiment, starting with YOUR company. I wonder how that would come out.

Don't you?

So the police and firemen shouldn't be in a union also correct?

Who among you mean, opinionated, under-informed, kibbitzers out there have ever won an argument with a teacher when you were say, a snotty sophmore in high school? Raise your hands!

Thought so. Zero!

Back in the early sixties when I went to an all male Parochial Prep School a snotty remark to one of the Marinist Brothers usually earned you a good smack upside your head. Fortunately I wasn't stupid enough to go home and complain to my Dad about it or I would have gotten another one for disrespecting my teacher. Talk about teachers who didn't make much money. These guys got a room with a bed, a sink, a place to hang their black suit, white shirt and black necktie and three meals a day. They did it because they had a vocation for teaching and a love of God.

And who would love teaching anymore, Johnny Q. Nowadays your parents would sue the teacher.

I have to laugh, though. You sound almost proud of the fact that your teachers lived in abject poverty. If starvation and self-flagellation was good enough for them, then by God, it ought to be good enough for the rest of you. What happened to all those martyrs who taught you, by the way? I guess there's no market for martyrdom nowadays, either.

And if that's the way God really wants it to be, Johnny Q, then why isn't it still that way?

Hi Bob,

So question for you, do you have any kids? If you do, are they in Public Schools? If they are, how often do you sit down with them to see how much homework they have? How engaged are you in your PTA? Do you go to school board meetings? Where does Wisconcin place in Standardized Test Scores, HS Graduation Rates, and College Graduation rates?

If the teachers are so bad, proove it. SImply stating it doesn't make it true.

So U are saying unions for private workers are ok but public employees aren't good enough

Bob ~

it is all about the boodle.

Now you have teachers confused with Britney Spears, Bob. ;-)

But seriously, teachers ARE the unions. Where you get these silly notions that unions somehow exist separately from their workers is beyond me -- especially in the public sector, where union jobs are mostly unpaid volunteer positions.

And I think our overall ACT and SAT scores, National Merit scholars, and overall climate of well-educated and well-trained workforce, with unemployment below the national average, and unemployment in my own little town about half of the national average, belies your general proposition that teachers here are doing a "cr@ppy job."

Or do you have some secret evidence to the contrary? If so, let's see it. Otherwise, to put it politely, keep your "cr@p" to yourself.

Yes, reading up on union history is very interesting. You gave us the leftist koolaid drinking version, all warm and fuzzy.

An objective history of unions, will also include other aspects: their use of violence and murder, their incredibly massive corruption scandals , and their infiltration and takeover by avowed Communists (Reagan was involved in that battle)....

Would could apply the same learnings to capatalistic corporations. Company Towns, where the manager is really a dictator. Stringent morality clauses. Firings because they feel like it. Child Labor. Factory Deaths do to lack of safety precautions. The ideal that your only value is what you produce for the company (society). Greed company owners paying off cops to get favors. Paying off officials to get favorable zoning rights, and other such events.

HEre is one difference. Most of the Union corruption is in the past. Most of the Corporate corruption continues. (Please not I said MOST, not all).

The difference between true Captalisim and True Communism, is that in a captalistic society, all the money goes to one person, and one person only, while in Communisim it goes to the works.

(This is not me endorsing Communisim, just pointing out the similarities between True Capitalism and True Communisim)

Paranoia strikes deep, Bob ... into your life it will creep. Or was that cr@p?

The 40-hour work week was won in Wisconsin at the cost of several lives. Maybe we should just get rid of that. Overtime laws, too, and child labor laws, and leave laws, and discrimination laws, and OSHA, and all the laws that protect workers that were won by LIBERALS.

OMG ... it's a commie liberal offering me a benefit ... RUNNNnnnNNNN.

Do you realize how silly you are, Bob?

Do you realize how silly Ronald Reagan was, too? Right up there with Joe McCarthy.

McCarthyism LOST, Joe. Losing has consequences.

We all would like to be wealthy one day sir, again you are pointing the blame at the union teachers, police, and firefighters are not rich if you know of any in this great country please let me know.

Are you suggesting because coperate america pay you less, that teachers should get paid less, they should not live comfortable middle class life. Were you homed school?

What happened to the pioneer frontier style of capitalism?

Progress. Catch the fever.

I for one have lived that way my whole life. I don't depend on the government and never will. Too bad the hippies of the 60s fell for the lies, they had such promise...

What taxpayer told Gov't Walker to go after the union? They have agreed to his concessions but thats not good enough he wants to get rid of the unions and this is only his first step.

The Koch brothers. That's pretty clear. Other governors, too.

p.Mack...."What taxpayer told Gov't Walker to go after the union?"

Simple.... The majority of Wisconsin voters.... remember?

Based on Governor Walker's campaign platform.... the majority of Wisconsin voters elected him to DO WHAT HE IS DOING... PLAIN AND SIMPLE !

Hello America, you are so proud and so wonderfully stupid. You can't even see past the fact that Walker is trying his hardest to kill unions. The unions have already agreed to his paycuts and the increases that their members will have to live with to keep their benefits. You just can't live with the fact that people want more than what little they're given, I challenge you to live on a starting teacher's salary and tell me you wouldn't want more. You do realize that if people just didn't fight for their rights there wouldn't be an America.

kr -- I am not interested in the illustrated history of unions to the present day. 100 years ago, I might have been with you to a small degree because of safety issues and children, but even those things could have been remedied by simple legislation. The time of the big unions is fading, and not a moment too soon! Our economy needs to stop the bleeding (deficit spending) so we can then work on getting our global trade back in balance and get Americans working and creating jobs again!

Miguel, I deplore you to point me to a "big" union. Did you know that only 5% of current private sector employees are unionized. Maybe you do need to open a history book my friend, turn off the TV and stop listening to the lies of Rush, Glen and the like.

I respect your argument, here's what you fail to realize though... it would be discriminatory if a union said to a company, "You should give a raise to Jack, but not Jill". Whether or not people are the most skilled at what they do, if they work hard, (unions are more likely to generate hardworking, happy employees because they don't have as many financial worries) they should be given raises and benefits.

OK, Miguel, if that really worked then all the non-union high level CEO's who caused the 2008 Wall St. crisis, should NOT have gotten their bonuses and should have been canned from their jobs and lost all their benefits because they DIDN'T DO THEIR JOBS RIGHT! Did that happen? NO!

If some public workers are expected to take these cuts and lose their right to negiotiate, then ALL public employees, including elected officials and their staff, ALL OF THEM, statewide and potentially at the federal level, should have to take the same cuts in benefits. When I see that happen I will gladly agree that union public workers must do the same. Otherwise, this is just plain discrimination! No other word for it!