Right-on Feisty:

He may have dropped out of college, but he will be kicked out of office. Those impeachment petitions are coming hot off the press.

Walker claims he's no union buster...

But what we DO know about him is he attended Marquette University for 4 years carried a 2.59 GPA and NEVER graduated...

And then there's this:

Koch Industries is a major player in Wisconsin: Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs at their Green Bay plant:

Officials at Georgia-Pacific said the company is laying off 158 workers at its Day Street plant because out-of-date equipment at the facility is being replaced with newer, more-efficient equipment. The company said much of the new, papermaking equipment will be automated. [...] Malach tells FOX 11 that the layoffs are not because of a drop in demand. In fact, Malach said demand is high for the bath tissue and napkins manufactured at the plant.

Koch Industries was one of the biggest contributors to Walker’s gubernatorial campaign, funneling $43,000 over the course of last year. In return, Koch front groups are closely guiding the Walker agenda. The American Legislative Exchange Council, another Koch-funded group, advised Walker and the GOP legislature on its anti-labor legislation and its first corporate tax cuts.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/18/business-teaparty-wisconsin/

And there you go. Thank you for posting this, Feisty. Great minds ....

Mark, this is a question more suited for the BoilerRoom.

When is someone gonna do the hardwork to let America know, just what it Cost Taxpayer's, for All of Congress's Healthcare,Pensions, etc.?

My guess it's a heckuva lot Moolah.

Also, why is'nt Congress saying they'll take a paycut back to 2008 levels, since that is the year thier using for the Budget cuts?

Inquiring minds would Like To Know!

Yes, Gov. Walker is a UnionBuster, but he's justifying it by Only Busting Unions that did'nt backem last year.

Walker pulled the classic 'Bait & Switch' with the help of the Koch brothers and the TeaParty who financed and voted for him!

Now, he's been exposed for what he really is...a Union Buster!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

He's a college dropout!

I agree with Ron; Right on Feisty.

and NEVER graduated...

And rumor has it he got kicked out for cheating. That's why he didn't graduate.

He's about to get kicked out of governorship with a recall too.

Koch Brothers are going down too.

But WAIT! The plot thickens:

Over 68,000 people have mobilized in Madison and progressive organizers are planning solidarity efforts across the country to denounce Gov. Scott Walker’s (R-WI) radical attempt to bust Wisconsin’s public sector unions. So far, Walker has refused to compromise, even though Wisconsin labor leaders are already coming to the table with large concessions. How can Walker press on, even with public opinion beginning to turn against him? Much of Walker’s critical political support can be credited to a network of right-wing fronts and astroturf groups in Wisconsin supported largely by a single foundation in Milwaukee: the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, a $460 million conservative honey pot dedicated to crushing the labor movement.

Robert Welch, who founded the Society in 1958, was a regular speaker at Allen-Bradley sales meetings. Harry distributed Birchite literature, as did Fred Loock, another key figure at the company. They also supported the Australian doctor Fred Schwarz, founder of the Christian Anti-Communist Crusade; William F. Buckley, Jr.’s National Review; and a right-wing Midwest radio program produced by anti-communist producer Bob Siegrist. Harry’s main political targets were “World Communism” and the U.S. federal government, not necessarily in that order. His political philosophy was laissez-faire capitalism, and he was strongly opposed to anything that might restrict his freedom to conduct his business as he saw fit. His promotion of “freedom”, however, did not extend to his own workers. While women had worked at the plant since 1918, and made up nearly a third of the workforce during World War II, they weren’t paid the same as men. They finally sued in 1966, charging the company paid less to women than male workers operating the same machines. A federal judge ruled in their favor. Allen-Bradley was one of the last major Milwaukee employers to racially integrate, and then only through public and legal pressure. By 1968, when the company’s workforce had grown to more than 7,000, Allen-Bradley employed only 32 Blacks and 14 Latinos.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/zombie-johnbirch-walker/

Anyone with a brain larger than a hummingbird's can connect the dots!

Ladies,

I never graduated either. But please don't lump everyone that didn't make it through with this dead beat Walker dude. I'm attending now, at 50, and should be finished by the summer. Difference between him and me. I pay attention and learn. I don't think he did! Most realize that unions are the backbone to our current working conditions. 40 hour work week, holidays, vacations, Sat & Sun off, safety and child labor laws. Without unions all those things will be chipped away until we are back in 1900 again. A third world country where labor is being shot at by the boss for organizing.

So Walker isn't a Columbia / Harvard educated intellectual moron ...... he at has the common sense to not keep doubling deficits and bankrupting his state. (BTW-Feisty, got a copy of Obama's transcripts that you can post?)

Koch brothers laying off 158. Wow!

That's a lot worse than the 18,000 Obama's best bud at GE laid off in 2009. (BTW-Did the Koch brothers get $24.9 million in bailouts that same year while making a profit of $1.56 billion.)

Hummingbirds connecting the dots. Don't tell me you can not connect the Obama / GE dots.

Of course there are ton more dots and I'll be happy to provide them for any of the liberal bird brains having trouble with the real problems.

Seriously folks? The people who elected Walker in November (a solid majority) voted for him because this is EXACTLY what we expected him to do- whatever is necessary to fix our budget. The folks who want to recall him are the folks who didn't have enough votes to keep him out to begin with.

And Feisty, Walker HAS already agreed to a number of changes to the original bill he presented a week ago. The problem is the so-called compromise the democrats want is complete abandonment of everything that makes this bill work and THAT he is not willing to compromise on. And i find it more than a little disingenuous to claim you want to debate anything when you won't show up on the floor of the state senate to do that. You can't debate a damned thing when you're hiding in a hotel (or several, really) in another state. The republicans in DC were flogged for 2 years of attempting to do their constituents business on the Senate floor but at least they showed up even when they knew the votes were not there for them to succeed- at least they did their jobs!

Thank you to the majority of our public sector employees who have actually gone to work every day since this started and done their jobs for the benefit of the rest of us. We owe you a debt of gratitude for your dedication. For the tens of thousands of teachers calling in sick, denying kids the education you claim to pride yourselves on providing while you protest for your own personal gain, feel free to quit and join the private sector. I'm sure there are plenty of applicants who are equally qualified and more than happy to take the deal on the table.

Pretty asinine comment Anna.

Unions comprise 7% of the private sector - hardly the back bone of America.

If unions disappear we're going back to child labor ......

Yea, and if GM fails, we're going back to horses for transportation.

Congrats, Ana----how wonderful that you will earn your degree!!

Just wait and see, Bob. You take for granted what was handed to you. Just wait until it's taken back.

Rand Paul and others talk openly about eliminating the minimum wage and also the laws on child labor.

Do you not listen to what your own side is actually saying?

And GM probably won't fail now, but not because of anything republicans did. In spite of it, rather.

Suzy ~ There are no words to tell you how wrong you are. Read the rest of my posts on this thread. Walker did NOT run on a platform of destroying collective bargaining. Get your head out of the sand before it's too late.

What's really disingenuous, Suzy, is that the governor claims not to be a union buster, but then refuses to compromise that part of the bill when the unions concede ALL his economic arguments.

What else can that possibly be? He lies, Suzy, and by extension, by spreading his lies, so do you.

Get used to being called a liar because I'm sick and tired of hearing people like you talk like you do without responding back in kind.

If you owe public employees anything, its not just an insincere "thanks" for being good citizens. You owe them RESPECT, And it's about time you showed it.

bob-

Yes, Congrats, Ana You Go Girl.

@ booby trap.

So Walker isn't a Columbia / Harvard educated intellectual moron ...... he at has the common sense to not keep doubling deficits and bankrupting his state. (BTW-Feisty, got a copy of Obama's transcripts that you can post?)

Transcipts are

Does graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School mean anything to you? Also he was the first AA President of the Law Review.

Koch brothers laying off 158. Wow!

So Bush lost 7000 jobs a month.

So what if he IS a Union buster. Unions are obsolete. They did their job decades ago and tons of worker's rights laws are on the books. Now, the Unions are inefficient and corrupt and most are tied into the mob in some way. They collect dues and misappropriate them. They stomp their feet and threaten to strike when they don't get their way. Have you ever seen a bunch of unions guys just standing around on a job site? That's all they do!

I live in Philadelphia and it is a union city. Good luck getting your roof fixed by a non-union company. They won't come out to do the work for fear of intimidation. You HAVE to choose a union company and get overcharged for a job that will take twice as long.

A number of amazing people in leadership positions did not gradulate from college, but went on to build great companies. Many folks, some graduating Magna Cum Laude can't function in society for society isn't a fit for their ideals.

The WI issue is an issue of unions and those who disapprove of unions. With the DNC busing in street people to protest, and the President as a leader of the DNC, has he compromised his leadership ability? Has he overreached by becoming involved in a state-rights issue?

I would be interested in hearing your comments.

That's all that Bush lost, Bev. Please tell us how many Obama lost! Sure you will not use real facts, but some left sided know it all, Try a government web site!!! See your up to your old trick, throw in Bush and run with it. That is the past! Now, thats right now, we are trying to remove Democrats that are hiding out with the Obama unions in your state!! If we get enough to sign on, we will have elections again, and you can keep those Democrats in your state! We don't need them and don't want them back in Wisconsin!! We are not busting unions, they are just going to get paid a lot less!! They want to opp out of the extra cost for Obama care, well they wanted Obama BS, they can help pay for it!! Unions are not part of the Obama depressed middle class, but they soon will be! Join the real world!!! Liberals hate it when their ideas bite them, Run from Madison, make "Walkker" a house hold name! Thanks for making a nation look up to our Governor, then again, That might be President Walkker in 2 years.

I am sickened by the lack of forethought many supporters of Walker continue to show as you write your comments. Check the facts instead of the gossip. As one of the tens of thousands of protestors at the Capitol in Madison I promise you that "street" people are not being bussed in. (@safecracker) Due to the quantity of people who want to protest we are using busses to facilitate our gathering.

Unions are hardly obsolete. My union helps to determine my working conditions, ensuring that I am compensated for at least some of the hours I work. Neither I, nor any of my fellow educators, are in no way connected to any mob. (@Lynchmob) And if you think that the laws that exist to protect workers rights will remain if the unions leave, think again.

I also want to be sure people are aware that we are protesting peacefully. I am here. I have seen what is happening and am a part of it.

I do not hold Governor Walker's lack of formal education against him. (Neither of my parents graduated high school and they are both very intelligent.) The problem with Governor Walker isn't his lack of education or even his actual intelligence, it is his lack of reasoning, logic, common sense, and general goodness.

Anna,

You take for granted what was handed to you.

Funny about the child labor stuff - I actually was forced to go to work at the age of 5. Made 10 cents an hour. OK - my Dad was self-employed and Mom threatened to divorce him if didn't get me out of her hair.

Anyway, it was really pretty cool and through the years was able to buy my first skateboard, my first .22, first little motorcycle, car, etc. A lot of the "old days" values, etc. are still pretty great.

I read quite a bit, but don't focus on the fringe stuff like you guys do. We have the Koch brothers (evidently - never read anything on them except the regurgitated crap here at FR) you have Soros and a host of others. So what.

GM? They are now run by a former telecom / Beltway burearcrat guy with out a clue about the cars, much less the car industry. They are selling a car that costs more than $40,000.00 to make for $41,000.00, a car nobody is going to buy. Yea, why don't you libs by that stock for a hold and see where you end up.

Bev,

booby trap?

I like it! I blow liberal arguments to pieces everyday. Thanks.

Still no transcripts, huh.

You realize Bush wasn't a company, right?

Bob,

Just curious, how much an hour would it take to get you out of OUR hair?

come on, have a sense of humor!

PS. Like a true Republican, I think you're conflating your expertise in how your 'arguments' are construed. Just callin' 'em like I see 'em!

Stacie, my question for you is this- when Walker made a similar benefits concession request of the MPS teachers last year and they came back with an answer of no, we'd rather see our fellow educators laid off than pay a minimal amount more for our benefits, what would lead anyone to believe they (along with the other public sector union employees) would suddenly decide to say yes this time? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that this round of talks was the one that was going to do the trick.

So let's see if I have this right----President Obama, graduate of Harvard Law School is not qualified while Gov. Walker, college drop-out, is the new hero of the right.

Stacie,

The protesters should be commended because they have been peaceful Sure, they are some carrying signs of depicting Governor Walker as Hitler and other not-so-nice banners. If there’s a crowd, there’s going to be at least a few out of line, right? Not the majority though. I also understand that the protestors were instructed not to be confrontational with the counter protestors. That’s all good.

My question, though, to you, Stacie as public employee, isn’t it the least bit frustrating to be a union member in some respects? You’re required to pay dues to an organization that forwards your money to political parties and generous salaries of union execs. Wouldn’t you like to keep those dues yourself, invest them in your own future or spend the money? I understand the unions are spending $30 million for this protest. Some of that is your money. Some of that is my money, as a tax payer. What if the union supports a candidate you don’t?

The unions want everyone to be treated the same, regardless of merit. If you’re a really great teacher and your results surpass others, you could demand higher pay and better benefits based on your individual exceptionalism. The union says the teacher that’s not as good as you are is entitled to the same recognition, pay and benefits as you. In this way, the unions are doing you a disservice. How irritating is that?

The pension you’re promised could never materialize if the money’s not there. (Look at what happened to airline employees).

People can demand respect and fair pay on their own. It happens all the time in the private sector. As long as you could outperform the competition in your field, you’d be better off. What are your thoughts?

Clara,

Good one. I actually did laugh. Point is, I need to quit, there are a lot of good conservative comments these days.

Candice,

Great comments.

Steeler Fan ~

So let's see if I have this right----President Obama, graduate of Harvard Law School is not qualified while Gov. Walker, college drop-out, is the new hero of the right.

Yep, that about sums it up. Manchurian candidates are still more rare than Harvard graduates, but they're catching up fast.

If things keep going in this direction the Koch brothers and the few like them will own everything and we'll all work for minimum wage.

Geez Ike0716, when is this fixation of the Koch Bros. going to end? We also have Soros, want to comment on him?

If we need Unions to protect our working conditions against our own government, then we are truly lost. You can't tell me that in the world of over saturation, we need this body for our public workers. This is a Union money grab.

Not to mention just last year they tried to force the goverment to give a blind simple majority to Unionize companies so that the employers only had to deal with the Union and not the employees.

Thanks to the many teachers in my state that kept working instead of joining this protest, but the marches already cost millions of dollars. Not to mention we now have to make up the extra days in addition to having the cost to run the school while no one was there, or the fact that many families could not go to work because they could not arrange emergency day care when the teachers were so sick that they could barley make it to Madison to protest.

I don't believe in having a public employee hold the nation hostage as they pursue their direction while being paid from the taxpayers. Take a page from the ATC, and fire them if they don't report for work.

sorry need to let you know what website its on. search wiseye.org ellis. under event details. interview on 2-15-2011

Accept the compromise

He can't Clara - he's already cashed & spent his check from the Kock Brothers! They don't want a 'refund' they want to see some results, as in union busting!

Exactly what would be the point to a bill requiring additional contribution for health care and a small contribution for state funded pensions if said bill can be undone with every union contract negotiation that comes up? THIS is what got us here. The public employees unions have been making contract demands regardless of the ability of the employer (the tax payers) to pay. In a private company, union demands are at least subject to the ability of the company to meet them. If the company can't, they close the doors and call it quits. The state cannot do that. When state taxes are so high they are driving businesses out of the state and keeping new ones from settling here and driving retirees to lower tax states to afford to live on limited incomes something has to give. The problem isn't that Walker and many others who side with him see a need to put an end to this system that unfairly disadvantages the tax payers, its that we ever allowed them to start in the first place.

OK, if we accept what you say, which I don't, what is his justification for not taking away collective bargaining from the police and firemen. I mean, what's fair is fair. I have not seen one instance on this vine where conservatives addressed this stupidity. The police and firemen have retirement perks most of us would kill for. Yet they're not asked to sacrifice. I guess what we're thinking on this is true. I sure haven't heard the Governor explain why they weren't included in this atrocity. I guess it pays to back an idiot.

Suzy ~ You are SO clueless that it's unbelievable. "THIS" is NOT exactly what got us here. Bad fiscal management in other areas, and a horrible economy in general, caused by republican economic policies, is what got us here. The taxpayers (who include public employees, by the way) are NOT "disadvantaged" by the system. In Wisconsin, public employee bargaining rights are subject to binding arbitration. They can't strike if they don't get what they want. An arbitrator decides in cases of disputes, and sometimes public employees lose. The factors that arbitrators consider include ABILITY TO PAY. That's how it works in the real world. Employees don't just "demand" what can't be given. Local governments have the power to raise taxes, if they so desire, or not to, if they so desire. They can say no and submit to an arbitrator. In Wisconsin, teacher salaries, in particular, have been capped by statute for almost 20 years. Last year, many public workers took unpaid furloughs in an attempt to help resolve the budget crisis. The system worked, Suzy, which is why, before Governor Walker punched the artificial hole in the budget that he now purports to be filling, Wisconsin was heading for a SURPLUS in this biennium.

I guess that probably wasn't in the talking points you got from the Tea Partiers.

But that's exactly what makes it clear that this is a trumped up budget non-crisis so that Walker can carry through the agenda that his corporate paymasters imposed on him and other republican governors.

Answer me this, Suzy -- if state taxes in Wisconsin are so doggone high, and the climate is so anti-business, then why don't those nasty Koch brothers just pack up and go? Or is it because Wisconsin has some of the best-educated, hardest workers and some of the best infrastructure in the country?

And where do you suppose those came from? This ain't Texas, Suzy. At least, not yet.

Anna Molly, you keep mentioning that you live in the district neighboring Paul Ryan's- is that actually IN Wisconsin or are you in northern IL? Because blaming WI's budget issues on republicans is a bit ridiculous- Even Diamond Jim Doyle knew there was a massive budget shortfall looming. This stupid surplus people keep trying to sell is a farce. Doyle knew it to the point that he didn't want to run for a 3rd term. Of course I fully expect you drank his Kool Aid and believe it had everything to do with self-limiting his terms in office but lets try to think logically for a moment. Doyle's budget wasn't balanced any more than Clinton's was. Both used smoke and mirror tactics like borrowing money from one fund to fill in a gap in another, projecting future money based on current promise knowing full well those promises either weren't there at all or sunsetted before they'd have allowed a surplus to actually happen.

As for the tax climate- Thomas Industries pulled out a year and a half ago, moving their manufacturing facilities to LA because Jindahl gave them a very favorable tax incentive, built them a new manufacturing facility and they are a right to work state. During the negotiations that led to that deal Diamond Jim was signing a no-bid contract with Talgo for a train few wanted built. The significance, a Milwaukee company already building trains for the Chicago L system IN WI, employing WI workers wasn't allowed an opportunity to bid the job and in response, pulled manufacturing from WI. Workers at Harley Davidson, Mercury Marine and Kohler Company, among others, have all made concessions similar to those in Walker's bill because they HAD to in order to keep their jobs. Every time a similar proposal has been put before the public unions (Milwaukee teachers is the specific, recent example that comes to mind) they have been SHOT DOWN HARD. The fact that they are willing to deal now only because they've had their feet held to the fire is a joke.

Dennis, I've asked that question myself. The only logical explanation I can come up with is the police, fire fighters and state patrol folks actually put their own lives on the line every single day they go to work. They have put public safety above personal safety. I don't know if that's Walker's impetus for exempting them or not but I can see at least a margin of logic to it. But of course I'm sure the liberal ilk have decided it's all about campaign contributions so whether I'm right or not, none of you will care.

Carla

more evidence he is a union buster, this story is on the Chicago tribune web site. a very Conservative new paper.

Wis. gov rejects compromise floated by GOP lawmaker

Gov. Scott Walker holds firm as protests continue

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A handful of Republican lawmakers in Wisconsin seemed to hold one of few paths to a compromise that could end a high-stakes stalemate over union rights that has captured the nation's attention.

Gov. Scott Walker made clear today he won't back off his proposal to effectively eliminate collective bargaining rights for most public employees -- and he ridiculed state Senate Democrats who have fled the state, telling them to call off their Illinois vacation and get back to work.

The Senate Democrats vowed not to come back to allow the bill to pass — even if they have to miss votes on other bills Tuesday. And union leaders said they would not let up on protests that have consumed Wisconsin's capital city for a week and made the state the center of a national debate over the role of public employees' unions.

That dynamic means it might take Republicans in the Legislature who believe Walker is going too far to try to break the impasse. One idea that has been floated by GOP Sen. Dale Schultz would temporarily take away bargaining rights to get through the state's next two-year budget, then immediately restore them.

Walker rejected that idea during an interview Monday on MSNBC.

this goof is not even going to compromise with in his won party.

and then this....fact or fiction, can't tell but

over on current.com/news, "the police are turning on walker"

This is what Walker is proposing

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/18/us-wisconsin-proposal-idUSTRE71H6I020110218

Now, why do I think it is the direct collection of dues, and the yearly vote to re-certify the unions, that are the REAL cause of this unrest?

Why should unions be afraid to face the membership? Why should they be afraid to rely on direct collection of dues?

chilled

and then this....fact or fiction, can't tell but

over on current.com/news, "the police are turning on walker"

chilled because to them their next. what to stop him from doing this to the cops then to the firemen, there are in a more dificult postion they can't strike, so if next year this does not solve the pension problem the cops are next, there pensions are more costly then the teachers unions.

its called NO TRUST!!!!!!!!

the only solution to this is take the pension and give them to the teachers to manage on there own, just like private people have to do. the pension plans are in trouble because of the market tanking 2 years ago, the states now have to make up for the short falls due to the market.

The lawmakers need to come clean and admitt they made a mistake putting the pensions in the market.

chilled,

great link,

Tracy Fuller, the Executive Board President of the Wisconsin Law Enforcement Association has issued a statement on the organization's page. Parts of it read as follows:

Please excuse the caps--this was how it was written

I am going to make an effort to speak for myself, and every member of the Wisconsin State Patrol when I say this.

Break*

I SPECIFICALLY REGRET THE ENDORSEMENT OF THE WISCONSIN TROOPER'S ASSOCIATION FOR GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER. I REGRET THE GOVERNOR'S DECISION TO "ENDORSE" THE TROOPERS AND INSPECTORS OF THE WISCONSIN STATE PATROL. I REGRET BEING THE RECIPIENT OF ANY OF THE PERCEIVED BENEFITS PROVIDED BY THE GOVERNOR'S ANOINTING.

I THINK EVERYONE'S JOB AND CAREER IS JUST AS SIGNIFICANT AS THE OTHERS. EVERYONE'S FAMILY IS JUST AS VALUABLE AS MINE OR ANY OTHER PERSONS, ESPECIALLY MINE. EVERYONE'S NEEDS ARE JUST AS VALUABLE. WE ARE ALL GREAT PEOPLE!!

ok so Now the Cops are turing on him, this guy is making his bed with who!!!!!!! this rookie made the mistake that unions do stick together.

i remember back in 1979 when ted Kennedy crosses the fire fighter picket line in chicago, he never recovered from that. they stick together.

Suzy ~ I'm in Wisconsin. You give one example of a business leaving, and for Louisiana, no less. Sure, where they can do worse by their employees and fit right in. Now THAT'S the nobility from republicans. Exactly what I expect.

If that's what you mean by an anti-competitive environment, Suzy, I think I'll just stay here and drink. You and the Koch brothers are free to leave for Louisiana anytime on the City of New Orleans. Or, no, wait ... you wouldn't dream of taking one of those dirty, smelly Amtrak trains, would you?

As for the budget balancing, Suzy, once again you show your ignorance. We're NOT talking about the long term, structural deficits, for which I understand that St. Walker will soon be proposing even more Draconian cuts. We're talking here about the $140 million hole that Governor Walker deliberately punched in the CURRENT biennial budget during the Special Session in January, without which the Legislative Fiscal Bureau projected a surplus of about $121 million in this biennium. Having poked the hole -- with tax cuts for the wealthy, by the way -- Walker then used that opening to smash public unions to smithereens, not to mention the other drastic changes he is proposing to Medicaid, etc.

By the way, did you know that the Legislature, after they finish smashing the unions, will next have to take up whether Milwaukee County can declare bankruptcy, all because of Walker's own mismanagement while he was Executive. In fact, the State took back Badger Care from Walker before the election because he had mismanaged it so badly.

And this is the hero you choose to get Wisconsin's fiscal house in order? A guy who would take a huge structural deficit and then unconcernedly grant tax breaks for cronies that blow another big hole in it? Guess again.

As for why the police and firefighters were exempted from the bill, Suzy, it's because they supported Walker in the election. I wonder, if you asked them, whether they would support him now. I suspect not.

And why is that, Suzy, since they were exempted from the pain. Think about it. Or, no, because that would require you to think of something else besides yourself.

Bob ~ The difference between the Koch brothers and George Soros is that one of them isn't using wealth and position trying to destroy the lives of workers, poor people, and the elderly. Guess which is which. Sheesh.

So you went to work at age 5 and liked it. That explains some things, like why you're hard-edged and bitter. Just because times were hard for you, Bob, doesn't mean that you should wish that on everyone. I had an uncle named Bob, too, who never graduated from high school and worked hard in a sweatshop factory all his life, and then died early. He never would have wished the same fate for his sons, or for me. You're no Uncle Bob. You are, however, a living, breathing example of what's wrong with the right-wing thought process -- or at least the thought process of tools like you. Drag everyone down to your level, rather than lifting yourself up to theirs.

And if you think you blow anyone's arguments away ... well, just don't think it.

no joe ~

Now, why do I think it is the direct collection of dues, and the yearly vote to re-certify the unions, that are the REAL cause of this unrest?

Why should unions be afraid to face the membership? Why should they be afraid to rely on direct collection of dues?

Don't know, no joe ... why DO you think it? There's no evidence in the article that this is what the unions are worrying about. If you think the members would be reluctant to pay dues directly, then what explains all the marching? It's not just the leadership marching, no joe, it's everyone. I think the unions have faced their membership this past week, and you see the results.

But thanks for the link because what it shows me is that Walker is essentially trying to make Wisconsin a right-to-work state. And if you take a quick peek at THIS link, you'll see that RTW states tend to be the poorer, undereducated, RED states in the south and west.

http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm

A picture paints a thousand words, no joe. And thanks for supplying the paint.

Something to aspire to, indeed. Just like Texas. Where every child has been left behind.

AM: As for the budget balancing, Suzy, once again you show your ignorance. We're NOT talking about the long term, structural deficits, . . .

As stated in another thread, to be a Liberal, you have to construct your own reality, and deny any facts associated with the situation, that is the only way you can justify your position. Teachers aren't on a wildcat strike, they're all sick. The Democrat state legislators didn't run away, they're negotiating. Doctors aren't writing phony sick leave orders for the striking teachers, those teachers are under "stress" and need to take a few (paid) days off from the rigors of their job.

Wisconsin, as well as many other states, does in fact have long term structural budget problems due to the pension and benefits systems provided to their government employees. Delaying a solution to those problems just makes them that much worse later on.

I think those Democrats holed up in Rockford Illinois need someone like Moses to lead them through the wilderness and help them find their way home.

So, Anna Molly, when Jim Doyle discussed the budget deficit we were facing you knew he was lying? That there was really a surplus and he was just waiting until he left office for us to figure it out? By gum he DID snooker me!

And when you say Walker was not elected to do exactly what it is he's doing, you are obviously the authority- after all it's pretty clear you didn't vote for him so you must know exactly why it is I, my husband, most of my friends, a hand full of my co-workers and, well, a MAJORITY of our state DID actually vote for Scott Walker- because we knew Walker would finally be a guy we could put in Madison who would not shy away from the fight it would take to balance the budget and put us back on a road to prosperity. Walker tried to do the same in Milwaukee County. Clever how you mention a lack of success without also mentioning that he was stuck with a strong liberal democratic majority in his County board and they vetoed his strongest efforts to improve the county's budget. Or that the primary reason Milwaukee County may be facing a bankruptcy filing is the pension fiasco passed by Walker's predecessor- DEMOCRAT Tom Ament (really, for any who doubt this one, google Tom Aemnt Pension Scandal- he passed a deal allowing a fair number of county employees to walk away with 5 and 6 figure one time "bonus" payouts in addition to their 6 figure annual pension payments- it would be spectacular if not for being such an economic disaster)

And for the record, I don't care that you dislike my take on the subject at hand but I am getting more than a little tired at your inability to state your point without leveling personal attacks while spouting your own intellectual superiority.

Suzie, don't forget, Doyle also wanted to use the taxes to build more freeways instead of the damaged roads in Wisconsin, not to forget he came up with the cocky idea to raise the taxed on cigarettes thinking that would get people to stop smoking when they FORGET, the tobacco industry is what brought in $$$$, I'm tellin ya, these are dweebs with no morals, reminds me of making up for a horrible childhood of not getting their way, its pathetic.. I'm glad I left this State, its a joke! Let em get pissy over what others say, do they really think people like us aren't going to say something??? God man, get a grip homosapiens, oh for the uneducated, the word homosapien has nothing to do with homosexual, just make sure you use it properly within a sentence.

Deception, just for kicks, think we should mention Doyle ramming through a tax increase on 24 hours notice with no objection from the democrats in office for rushing things but this bill given a week's notice and discussion that already changed some of it's major structural points is, by those same democrats, being rushed too fast for the good of the state's residents? You know, the 4.9 million NOT spouting off in Madison right now?

Oh yeah I heard all about it on the news, just shook my head and thought, here it goes again...

Lets just hope the public employees participating in this illegal strike are docked and/or fired from their jobs. Illegal actions by these workers would not be tolerated in the private sector and must not be tolerated in the public sector. The lies that these workers are "sick". The lies that a set of liberal doctors will write notes that excuse these workers from their job because of illness, the lies that the Democratic Senate legislators told when they took their oath of office and fled their duties. Lie upon lie from the Liberals. These lies cannot be rewarded by any compromise. They unions want to play rough? Fine, the taxpayers can play rough too.

If the unions offered every financial concession he asked for (assuming the concessions were truly necessary, which I don't think has been proven), and the Governor is not satisfied and wants to do away with them, how is that not union busting?

What is really sad is that the unions have not had effective spokespeople over the years so that the kind of bashing of them that goes on has been unanswered. The average person has come to think of unions as something for lazy people to hide behind rather than a protection for hard-working people from the over-reaching of management.

BUZZER ... wrong again, JoAnna. It was ruled by a judge NOT to be an illegal strike last Friday night.

But I would be amused to see you assessed a fine or penalty every time you tell a lie like that one on this board. Pay it directly to me, please.

And please see my post below on who's a taxpayer. We're ALL taxpayers, JoAnna. Except for the very rich, and the corporations.

A judge in Virginia and Florida ruled that ObamaCare to be illegal too AM. Do you believe that, or doesn't it fit you extreme leftist ideology?

And cut the lies on who pays taxes, it really makes you look like just another left wing nut. The top 10% wage earners. the so-called "rich", pay 70% of the taxes.

Actually, that one has me worried, too, JoAnna. I was opposed to the mandates, myself, but on other grounds. But without the mandates, most of the real reforms in the bill essentially die. My personal position is that the bill was written in the wrong way to withstand the Commerce Clause attack. It would have been easy to write a better bill from a Commerce Clause perspective, but the insurance companies never would have stood for it because it wouldn't have been the same guaranteed windfall to them.

And what my far-leftist ideology tells me about that is that the severability provision may have been left out deliberately so that if the mandates failed, the insurance companies weren't left holding the bag. If you read the opinion, JoAnna, there's a fair amount of support for that idea, and that the administration was complicit in it.

My ideology is so far to the left that I don't rubber stamp everything President Obama does.

And I don't approve at all of how he's handled the situation in Wisconsin. Satisfied?

On second thought, never mind.

JoAnnaSmith1

Lets just hope the public employees participating in this illegal strike are docked and/or fired from their jobs. Illegal actions by these workers would not be tolerated in the private sector and must not be tolerated in the public sector

Joanna you would love that but NOT!!!! the teachers union has not called for the employees to strike, the teachers have on their own choose to not go to work, by using vacation and sick time.

Its called Blue Flue.

a simular situtation happened in chicago 31 years ago. the school system ran out of money, and for 2 weeks teachers did not go to work. They did not stick but that used sick and vacation time. for everyday they are not in the class room the state looses federal matching funds so this will cost him more in the end than to let them keep there barganing rights.

what i find just laughable is Governor Walker is wimping out when it comes to the Cops, firemen and prison guards. i guess he is scared to take there collective bargaining right away, when its the cops anf fireman's pensions that are costing more than the teachers pensions. i know it pissed him off that they joined there fellow union brothers.

Governor Wimp walker.

Hell yes he is trying to union bust, or the other private unions would not be there. Nice try. even Reagan did not try and bust the air traffic controllers, that union was busted because they broke the law and struck and he then had the right to fire them. why they had a NO strick clause.

AM

My immediate reaction to JAS1 is what a lousy defense! It sounds like, "Oh YEAH, well I found two judges to side with me, so THERE!"

Talk about false equivalencies,...

Whatever floats their boat, I guess. PS. Thanks for disassembling Suzy, above. I have her on ignore. Her and only one other,...that's how bad she is. Not sure what she said to set you off; but KUDOS, GF, KUDOS!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Accept the compromise

He can't Clara - he's already cashed & spent his check from the Kock Brothers! They don't want a 'refund' they want to see some results, as in union busting!

is this your opinion, or can you post credible support of your statement? We all do not wish to promote misinformation as fact, do we.

Joanna you would love that but NOT!!!! the teachers union has not called for the employees to strike, the teachers have on their own choose to not go to work, by using vacation and sick time.

Its called Blue Flue.

Quite the example the teachers are showing their students, no? To abandon their posts to go on an authorized wildcat strike, an illegal strike by any definition. To lie to their employers by saying they are "sick". To have a liberal doctor writethem an excuse that they can't go to work because they are "sick". Quite the example these teachers are teaching their students, that if you whine long enough, and whine loud enough, and lie enough, you might get your way. And in addition, to have their state representatives skip town so that the People's business can't be conducted. Yeah, quite the example the teachers, the unions, and the Democrats are showing the children.

And "Blue Flue"? Product of a public education are you?

The Leftwing of Wisconsin is teaching our children many things. Oaths don't matter, agreements don't matter, morals don't matter, lies don't matter, not showing up to work doesn't matter, elections don't matter.

JoAnnaSmith1

And "Blue Flue"? Product of a public education are you?

Girl if ignorance were bless you would be a saint,

Blue flue is a term of flying the cope. Dam!!!!!

JoAnna: Quite the example the teachers are showing their students, no?

Actually, yes, it is.

Governement is of, by and for the people. Stand up for your rights. Your voice can be heard, no matter how small. Believe in and defend your convictions. Civics 101 firsthand.

Fielden, I'll buy your argument if you can survey the students protesting in support of their teachers and a majority can tell you exactly what it is that means.

fielden - Show us in that Civics book of yours where it says oaths don't matter, agreements don't matter, morals don't matter, lies don't matter, not showing up to work doesn't matter, and elections don't matter.

RVZ555

Please, safecracker. That's all that one does. Some of these people here are absessed with the Koch brothers.

Actually, Feisty makes me laugh with her banter......that is why today I am going to be a libbie, and as I posted to fielden before, not post with any true or logic, just post ignorance. It should be interesting to see what stupidity feels like.

and ironically, safecracker, it shouldn't be a mystery to you,...

Oh Clara, what an innovative statement from you.........nothing like being someone who values their opinion and no other. Why, I bet you would like to have this site free of anyone with a differing set of thoughtsl; a regular police state site!

Shame on those vile unions, insisting on living wages and basic human rights in the workplace. And those pesky safety regulations. We should all be grateful for the opportunity to work at the whim of corporate fatcats who haven't done a decent days work in their pampered lives; for whatever pittance they deem our labor worth, although they would have no wealth at all if not for the workers who toil on their behalf.

The assault on the workers continues unabated.

If it weren't for unions, you wouldn't have ANY of the benefits you enjoy in your job. And that's a fact, whether you admit or believe it.

Yup, and let's all blame the unions for the 5 day work week, 40 hours! Nasty bunch I'd say!

Who wouldn't want to work 6 days a week for an unlimited number of hours and no extra pay or time off! Leave me alone union, 'cause I know my BOSS will treat me ok!

My BOSS /employer has lawyers, and representatives that I know will look out for me!

Living for the weekend.....Thank the Unions!

JoAnnaSmith1: you gave up sticking to the facts of the current controversy pretty early. Remove the dividends from your ears and listen up: the unions in Wisconsin have agreed to what the governor asked for -- increased health insurance premiums and payment of a bigger share of ther pension contributions. In response, the governor has rejected getting what he asked for. There are more disconnects in that than an AT&T cell phone call. You don't have to repeal 50-year old statutory rights to collective bargaining to save money on employee benefits. The previous governor cut employee salaries each of the last two years by agreement with the unions in collective bargaining. And the state school board association in Wisconsin -- the elected local representatives who actually run the local schools -- have told the governor that his proposal goes far beyond anything they have asked for. They recognize that collective bargaining is an effective means of securing many of the things they want from the teachers with whom they bargain.

It's clear that you and Walker have the same objective: not to reduce the cost of government by securing concessions from current employees to deal with a budget crisis. But to permanently eliminate unions. So that who remains in unchallenged control??

JS writes that public employees have "soft jobs". It took awhile to comment on this, I had to stop laughing. I'm a public employee and its not uncommon for me to work 50 hr weeks and the occassional Saturday. Guess what JS, you don't pay for it either; consider it on me. I have today off because of the holiday, but my work load doesn't decrease and I imagine there will be a couple of late nights this week. Like in any workplace, public or private, there will be good folks and bad, and having worked in both arenas, I'd say the percentage is about the same.

JoAnnaSmith1: you gave up sticking to the facts of the current controversy pretty early. Remove the dividends from your ears and listen up: the unions in Wisconsin have agreed to what the governor asked for -- increased health insurance premiums and payment of a bigger share of ther pension contributions.

"Dividends"?

And no, the unions haven't agreed to a thing. How could they? Who are they negotiating with, or through? Are they talking through the Wisconsin State Senate, the very assembly where 14 of their Democratic members aren't even in town? How can they come to an agreement when they're aren't enough Senators to vote on an agreements. No, the unions see the jig is up, and now they are just posing. Any agreements have to come with a state senate assembly that is in session, and they are not in session, the cowards are not even in town.

JoAnna ~ Once again you display your ignorance. This isn't the Dark Ages before telephones, even though you might prefer it. The unions are negotiating through their own leaders with Mark Miller who is the democratic leader in the State Senate, who is in direct contact with Scott Fitzgerald, the republican Senate leader. At least one republican senator proposed an alternative plan to suspend collective bargaining rights until 2013. Fitzgerald told them all, in no uncertain terms, to go pound sand. I saw it on the TV.

Masterful negotiation skills, with the emphasis on "master." Do as I say, or else.

AM: JoAnna ~ Once again you display your ignorance. This isn't the Dark Ages before telephones, even though you might prefer it. The unions are negotiating through their own leaders with Mark Miller who is the democratic leader in the State Senate, who is in direct contact with Scott Fitzgerald, the republican Senate leader

Well isn't that wonderful. So when will they vote on it? Oh wait, they can't! The Apple Dumpling Gang of 14 Democratic Senators are vacationing in sunny Rockford Illinois, and just won't be available anytime in the immediate future. Great negotating tactic those Democrats came up with, to run away and hide. Great leadership qualities exhibited by them.

There can be no negotations until these clowns hiding out in Illinois show up to do their job. And even then they may, and probably will, lose the votes. Elections have consequences.

JS, no matter how much you wanna whine about those 14 dem senators, the facts (not opinions but actual facts) are that the union has offered all the monetary considerations being asked. The only thing they will not negotiate on is collective bargaining. If the gov. truly was concerned with the budget and had no other agenda, he'd jump all over it.

Great negotating tactic those Democrats came up with, to runaway and hide.

I tend to scroll past JoAnna's rants because, well, frankly she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about!

This one I couldn't let go unchallenged:

Wisconsin Democratic state senators who fled the state to block Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) union busting said today they have “no plans to return to the state until Walker could reach a reasonable negotiation with state employees.” Republican politicians and conservative commentators have lambasted the state senators all week for their supposed “dereliction of duty.” But those in the Party of Lincoln should look to the 16th president before they criticize the Wisconsin Democrats.

Indeed, 170 years before the Wisconsin Democrats fled Madison to deny a quorum, then-state Rep. Abraham Lincoln was fleeing the capitol in Springfield, IL — via a window, no less — to do the same in an attempt to save the State Bank of Illinois:

[Democrats] agreed to allow [the bank] to suspend its obligation to exchange its paper money for specie, but only for the remainder of the legislative session.

That’s when Lincoln determined to keep the legislature in session in order to buy precious time for the bank to find a way to survive, and that’s how he jumped into the national limelight on December 5, 1840. On that date, the Democrats proposed an early adjournment, knowing this would bring a speedy end to the State Bank. The Whigs tried to counter by leaving the capitol building before the vote, but the doors were locked. That’s when Lincoln made his move. He headed for the second story, opened a window and jumped to the ground!

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/20/lincoln-fled-state-wisconsin/

Wasn't Lincoln a Republican?

Feisty, are those members in violation of the oath they originally took when seated in their government positions? Don't you believe they have a responsibility of the citizens to perform the job they were elected to perform?

I have no issue with them standing up for their principals, but shouldn't they stand in their own chamber in their own state rather than hide from their responsibility?

JoAnna ~

There can be no negotations until these clowns hiding out in Illinois show up to do their job. And even then they may, and probably will, lose the votes. Elections have consequences.

Who put you in charge of negotiations?

safecracker ~

I have no issue with them standing up for their principals, but shouldn't they stand in their own chamber in their own state rather than hide from their responsibility?

They're not hiding. They're just trying to buy time to negotiate a deal with a governor who, instead of offering to discuss it and hold meaningful hearings, says there IS no compromise. Tell me, under the REAL facts here, which one is not living up to his responsibility? Not only has Walker lied, but he is acting like a schoolyard bully, and he doesn't like it because the other kids all ran away.

As for his dedication to fiscal responsibility, even as I write this, Milwaukee County is facing potential bankruptcy because of his brilliant fiscal management while he was County Executive.

Scott Walker is the Peter Principle in action.

safecracker: [T]hose members in violation of the oath they originally took when seated in their government positions

Qaths?! What do oaths matter to Liberals? Lies don't matter, the teachers lie that they are sick, so they get paid while they strike. Ethics don't matter, they are lying to their employers. Morals don't matter, they are abandoning their students. Elections don't matter to them either.

Only thing that matters to Liberals is that they get their way.

AM: Who put you in charge of negotiations?

If you can't vote, you can't negotiate. The Wisconsin Senate cannot vote until the cowards that left the Senate return to do their jobs.

AM: They're [the Democratic senator cowards that ran out of the state]not hiding.

Oh the lies you have to tell yourself to make believe what these Democrats are doing is somehow ethical, moral, or dare I say right. To put it in stark terms AM, what these Democrats are doing is wrong! This is not democracy, but it is anarchy. The Democrats have lost an election, and now they want to make up some new rules because they know they will lose the votes on the issues. Too bad, because elections have consequences.

Your ad hominem attack about how awful Scott Walker is was deleted to save bandwidth.

Anna,

They're not hiding.

And they don't seem to be in their state either. Should they not be negotiating or voting as they were hired to do? I will be the first to comment that I am not all familiar with the elections in WI, but from what little I read, the citizens of the state sent a mandate to the Spending Party of that state. In CA, our Spending Party has been the Democratic Party who has controlle the state for years. In WI, which party has been involved with the spending process and reduction of revenues over the years?

And why did the legislators of WI run and hide? To me it seems this hiding is not accomplishing anything; can you please provide me the upside for the hide in another state?

My favorite: "If you want to find out what is in the Health Care Bill, you will have to pass it to see what is in it." - Nancy Pelosi.

How "Well, ahhhhhh, ummmmm, I think, ahhhhh, ummmmm to ahhhhhhh, the President, ahhhhhhhh, I mean, ummmmmmmm." Robert Gibbs.

"I won the election, you didn't." Barrack Obama to the GOP

safecracker: My favorite: "If you want to find out what is in the Health Care Bill, you will have to pass it to see what is in it." - Nancy Pelosi.

Incorrect. If you're going to quote, at least quote the real statement and not the Fox News version. You have not only misquoted, you have taken it out of context.

Thank you for informing me fielden. I am on a libbie role play today and I don't have to be accurate or logical. OK?

safecracker

How "Well, ahhhhhh, ummmmm, I think, ahhhhh, ummmmm to ahhhhhhh, the President, ahhhhhhhh, I mean, ummmmmmmm." Robert Gibbs.

Straight off Hannity week before last. Thanks, safe, from those of us that don't have radios....

"But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy."

RVZ555 ~ Is that all you've got? Democrats will be glad to put their philanderers up against republican philanderers any six days of the week and twice on Sunday, and it STILL won't have anything to do with the question at hand.

But I always love to relive those classic tales of Republican family-values hypocrisy.

Let's start with Newt Gingrich, shall we ....?

Democrats will be glad to put their philanderers up against republican philanderers

---------------------------------------------------

Ick, when read a certain way, that paints a horrible picture.

Clinton was not impeached for lying under oath. He was impeached because he was Bill Clinton. The efforts to impeach him long pre-dated that little lie, which was NOT the same as the "I never had sex" remark, which was not made under oath. In the end, after all their machinations and the millions of dollars spent on persecuting him, a single lie in a deposition about an affair which, although it was distasteful, was not illegal, was all the republicans could get him on.

By the way, do you suppose Newt Gingrich never lied about his own little affair to someone? Please.

I can't believe you're arguing over a BJ, when Bush f***ed the entire country!

That's not, as I recall it, the statement for which Clinton was impeached, and I do believe that Newt Gingrich had a few ethical problems of his own, for which he was actually fined more than $300,000 by the House, and had to borrow the money from Bob Dole to pay.

Or aren't ethics violations honesty-related offenses, in your opinion?

That would explain a few things.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

I can't believe you're arguing over a BJ, when Bush f***ed the entire country!

Wow Feisty, what an op ed! Brilliant, good post, way to start the day......Nothing like having Clinton define just what "is" is.

RVZ555......they don't care if he lied under oath. It doesn't fit their agenda. If they fessed up to that, they might have to start fessing up about a LOT of things.

Safecracker.....shame on you, ...........you're jogging their memory!!!! LOL!!!!

AM - You can keep up with your wild accusations that it's all the "wealthy" and corporate America's fault, that they just aren't paying their fair-share. The taxpayer is tired AM, tired of being fleeced by their state governments, tired of putting up with inferior schools, tired of paying for someone elses retirements and benefits when they can't even pay for their own. It's over AM, the curtain has been pulled back from the state unions to show that they are the ones not paying their fair-share. Elections were held on the issue, and your side lost. And elections have consequences, and one consequence is that the unions will now pay their fair share. Get used to it, you'll be seeing a lot of it across the country.

Amen, Anna Molly.....*stands and applauds*

It comes back to the myth of Reaganomics and trickle down. If you take money away from the middle and lower classes, they have less to spend on goods and services the purchase of which benefits the entire economy. If you give more money to the wealthy, they stick it in the bank or the stock market and it benefits no one but themselves and their stock broker.

"It comes back to the myth of Reaganomics and trickle down"

No, it comes down to the Marxist world view that there are no property rights, that class envy requires that you steal from others' rightfully earned property, and that the Government is God.

The individuals who make up the 'middle and lower classes' are not static, they are constantly changing , for better or worse, because some people actually take charge of their own destiny, and dont believe they are helpless poodles waiting for a government handout.

I envy rich people as much as anyone, but the best attitude is to try to become rich yourself, not ask the Government to steal from the rich and hand it over to others.

You don't even seem to get that you're NOT Bono, RVZ, you're actually the other guy.

You see someone -- in this case a union member -- who has a better benefit than you have and your first instinct is to drag that person down to your level, not to lift yourself up to their level.

By the way, most people probably believe that the French Revolution was a good thing, for the most part, except for the head-rolling. The people living in those big houses weren't sharing either.

Or, did you -- like some republicans seem to do now -- think there really WAS cake?

Bob ~ Class envy? You think liberal envy YOUR class? No. I don't envy you, whatever your "class" happens to be.

As for God, I'd take government that cares about average folks every day as my God, over your God, who apparently cares only for the rich.

If you think public employment is such a cushy handout, I challenge you to try it. Or at least to say why you don't.

JoAnna ~

You can keep up with your wild accusations that it's all the "wealthy" and corporate America's fault,

Thanks so much, JoAnna, but I think I'd do that anyway without your permission.

Only time will reveal the truth of it. And it seems to me, we're already seeing the effects. The direction does not appear to be up.

JoAnnaSmith1, where do you live? If you are living somewhere where you are taxed a lot, and where all your services are inferior, where you can't earn enough to pay for your own benefits....maybe you should relocate somewhere more to your liking or maybe you should get involved in local politics and work to change your immediate situation.

AM: Please explain how the top 10% wage earners, the taxpayers that are paying 70% of the tax load, aren't paying their fair share. And if that isn't enough for you, what would be enough for you?

AnnaMolly.....you say "Union members pay taxes"

If you're talking about public union members........yea, they pay taxes.... with MY TAX DOLLARS.

AM: Thanks so much, JoAnna, but I think I'd do that anyway without your permission.

My Anna, you seem to want to talk about everything under the sun: Clinton, Gingrich, the Koch brothers, the French Revolution (what?!). You're flying off on so many tangents you're going to pull a muscle.

You don't care a d*mn about people AM, not like you say you do. You care about the unions and making a buck off of them, and to h*ll with the taxpayers that foot the bill.

You're flying off on so many tangents you're going to pull a muscle.

JoAnnaSmith........LMFAO!!!!

She can't defend her point, so she just throws sh!t up to see where it lands.....She has been trained well.

and they talk about the right's CONSPRICY THEORIES.........geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

JoAnnaSmith1

AM: Please explain how the top 10% wage earners, the taxpayers that are paying 70% of the tax load, aren't paying their fair share. And if that isn't enough for you, what would be enough for you?

Exon Moble and chevron made together over 50 billion last year and did not pay 1 dime in federal income tax. No Joanna this is not enough, i would be willing for them to pay 1 dollar, that will be 99 cent more than they pay now.

kate 1855079

JoAnnaSmith1, where do you live? If you are living somewhere where you are taxed a lot, and where all your services are inferior, where you can't earn enough to pay for your own benefits....

kate you can forget that, Joanna love to down every body for where they live, for me its chicago, but she will never tell you where she is from, I really think she is dead, so there for she is exempt for pay any tax.

Face it, JoAnna. The real free-loaders here are the corporations and the wealthy, who keep expecting more and more concessions and more and more tax breaks without any concern as to how it affects everyone else AND without making any effort to put that money back into the economy, which republicans repeatedly promise us they will don.

They won't. And you know it. We've had that discussion about corporate cash positions before, and you've NEVER offered one bit of evidence to contradict mine. It's all just blow, JoAnna.

The wealthy, lets start with the so-called "wealthy" AM. They're the top 10% of wage earners, correct? They pay 70% of the federal load. And that's not enough for you. What should they pay AM? And the bottom 47% of wage earners pay nothing. Does that sound fair to you AM? Are they getting government services AM? Shouldn't they pay something towards those services.

Corporate taxes. Again, what should they pay AM? Double, triple what they pay now? Who will pay those additional costs to those corporations AM? Will some of them go out of business paying all those taxes AM? Don't you care about the people that work for those corporations that will be looking for a job AM? Maybe they could take a few days off, call in sick, and protest?

And there is no "refuting" your type AM. You've got your mind made up. Corporations, bad! Rich, bad! Capitalism, bad! Profits, bad! Yeah, it's all just blow. Just make it official and call yourself a Marxist.

Howdy Frank, I'll put in my 2 cents and tell you my thoughts. I've seen the power of the unions greatly decreased over the years, especially in the private sector. As that power has evaporated, the plight of the workers has risen inversely; wages have stagnated or gone down, workplace security is almost non-existent, and all the while corporate profits and CEO salaries have gone through the roof. I believe it is no coincidence.

Putting aside the historical role unions played in getting us to where we are today with a 40 hour work week, health care benefits, holidays, etc., it seems to me that to trust in employers to obey all the laws and do the right thing for their employees is naive. And OSHA and other enforcement agencies can't keep up with the entire economy----unions can act as watchdogs for them. It seems to me we need unions more in challenging economic times----when to speak up against management might mean the loss of a job that can't be replaced, at least a union can protect its members.

And if there is no benefit from unions, why do employers do everything they can to stop them? E.g. Wal Mart.

Unions, in general, exist to create a 'bottom' for wages in select industries. That is why wages in union states are typically higher than wages in 'right-to-work' states and why the 'right-to-work' states are typically the most impoverished areas of the nation.

(Although if you listen to our friend CU Farley, he will tell that isn't the reason - the reason that the 'right-to-work' states are so impoverished is because there are more black people living in them - which is all bollocks of course.)

If there was no organized force establishing a 'bottom' for wages, then the result would be a fairly predictable depression of wages in every industry that once had a union presence over time. It would not be immediate, but the depression of wages by the private sector in this nation is already becoming noticeable through the widespread usage of temps to fill positions that were once held by regular employees.

The typical temp employee does not receive any benefits. Benefits can be valuated at anywhere from 25-33% above and beyond the actual salary of an employee. So if you are a manufacturing plant and your normal employee who runs a specific machine earns, say, $15/hour, if you can hire a temp to do the same job for $13/hour, you've depressed the actual average compensation that an operator of that machine typically earns by a lot more than $2/hour.

Employers do everything they can to stop employees from unionizing to halt the establishment of that bottom wage and every employer in an area will typically be complicit in it because they know that the establishment of the bottom will affect every employer, not just the employer whose workers unionized. In order to remain competitive with that union house, the employer who typically hires temps might suddenly see those temps looking elsewhere - especially if the compensation package offered by the union employer is a lot better.

The alternative is life in South Carolina, where the general populace hates unions in principle, even though they are one of the most impoverished citizenries of the entire nation with no to very few prospects of things ever getting much better.

Good to see you Michael! Hope all is well & we see you around more often! ;o)

BTW: CU Farley's... 'toast'! He's been banned along with all the under monikers he tried to hide behind!

Yea, Michael..............recruitment for the left on this site is paramount. I've been coming here, off and on, for about 6 months and they can't seem to get a new poster to save their a$$es. Maybe you can come back and help them out.

yea, it's terrible how those EMPLOYERS want to be able to negotiate one-on-one with potential employees without being FORCED to pay outrages wages and benefits packages to people who are ASKING for a job..........I guess you hate the free market too..........and don't give me that "sweatshop, dangerous working conditions" bullsh!t.

No, I don't hate the free market, but we've already see which way it goes when the workers aren't organized at all and the government doesn't have any particular vested interest in advocating for them, which seems to be the major point coming from the right today - that OSHA obviates the necessity for labor unions because it accomplishes every good thing that labor unions accomplish without any of the accompanying bad things.

The point is that without an organized force establishing a bottom for wages, then the entire industry will become depressed over time. I am not entirely sure whether I completely discount the notion of trickle-down. In general, when economic times are good, the top tends to do very well, the middle tends to do somewhat less well, and the bottom tends not to do particularly well at all. So in a sense, yes, there is some trickle down at least from the top to the middle.

But I do believe an economy can easily rot from the bottom up. If you depress the wages of the workers that comprise over 90% of a workforce, then the ability of that 90% to consume is similarly depressed, which in turn will ultimately lead to the depression of the income of the top, who own the businesses that the 90% are no longer using because they no longer have the money to do so.

A $15/hour employee can turn into a $13/hour temp, who in turn can turn into an $11/hour temp, who in turn can turn into a $9/hour temp in relatively short order. And since they are temps, who cares? They are temps. More will come in time. After all, the 'real' employees of the company, who were once 100% of the labor force, but who now somehow only comprise 25% of it, are paid wages competitive to the other workers in the industry.

In fact, most workers in that industry are still being paid at an equivalent rate to what they used to be paid a few years ago... it's just that there are quite a few less of them than there were then.

If there is one thing we should have learned as a people in the last 235 years, it's that a free market is a great thing, as long as it has counterbalancing forces. When there are no counterbalancing forces, we go through periods like the robber baronies of Commodore Vanderbilt and Andrew Carnegie, then the long depression, then the discovery that kids of 10 years old were working 16 hours a day in coal mines, etc.

It's not because people in general are evil. It's because free market capitalism is neither a moral philosophy or a political philosophy. It's an economic philosophy that has no moral or political underpinnings, no matter whether we want to to impose them on it or not. It is the same basic fundamental weakness that democracy has when we try to impose it on the middle east. Democracy is a political philosophy, not a moral or economic one. Which is why when democracy actually works in the middle east, you end up with a band of terrorists hostile to the west in charge of Palestine. Because democracy in its simplest form is simply the rule of the majority and if the majority of a nation are hostile to the west, then the likeliest outcome of a democratic election is a government hostile to the west.

In a nutshell, it is somewhat terrible for corporations to insist on individual negotiation with a single prospective employee. Because one man does not have the power or the leverage to impose his will over an organization, no matter how talented or gifted he might be. The only way for the small to become large, in this case, is for the one to become many. Because the only thing that can compete with a large organization is another large organization.

Then the other fish can thrive in the environment, because there is an orca in the water who can threaten the shark, which means the shark doesn't just devour everything.

And for what it's worth, I really doubt they actually need my help. They seem to be doing pretty well without me.

Really?

I imagine so. It's been almost a year since I posted here regularly. I see some of the same names around, most of whom I respect, even if they choose to post their messages in a different way than I do.

Even some of the right wingers.

Really? Rasmussen?

Wow, THAT sounds legitimate!

(sarcasm,...in case it doesn't translate)

Bob....Of course they do!.....BUT, you will never see it posted HERE! The MAJORITY of the country supports Gov. Walker, but the lamestream media would never report that.

You are listening to the lamestream media,Fox & Friends

Dale......where is it reported on here?.........

This has brought much attention to something that might have gone unnoticed. Note to tea party: you are not the only people who can organize and protest. You haven't seen anything yet, hope you enjoyed your time in the spotlight.

I think you should start a petition advocating that sort of thing. I especially like the part where a clinic could easily be sued if they refused to sign someone out of work who really did happen to be deathly ill today.

Doctors will sign them out for same reason they do everything they do - fear of liability. It has nothing to do with their politics.

The doctors went TO THE PROTESTERS......

I didn't see that. Is there a news source that verifies it anywhere?

YES, there is video.........you can look it up

YES, there is video.........you can look it up

Like the rest of the bogus ones you've been blathering about & begging us to watch?

Thanks! But NO thanks!

Which ones would those be feisty?..........bogus.........what has been bogus?.......begging?....more like DARING.

This coming from a "woman" who starts off the day saying "He's a college drop-out".........what's wrong feisty, couldn't find anything else to fault him on?

You know some of our most influencial Americans had NO college education at all...............now, your elitism is showing.

What's wrong with a person that doesn't have a college degree, feisty?.......I'm SURE most of those poor, under-privileged, people who stump for, all the time, DON"T have college degress......you're such an A$$!

TA: bogus.........what has been bogus?.......

To be a Liberal, you have to deny what your eyes see, you have to doubt what your ears hear, you have to have your mouth lie about the reality of the situation, and you have to turn off what little brains you may have.

The Liberals today have taken a beating. Doc Ron, what do you figure the score was, I have 42-2. There is just no justification for the Liberals position regarding this mess in Wisconsin.

And next on the agenda for the Liberals?Their defense of raising the debt ceiling. Their defense of Obama's $1.65 TRILLION dollar deficit busting budget! Their defense of not having the government make cuts, their defense to leave the entitlements, the very entitlements that are bankrupting the country, to just leave them alone. In other words, a lot of smoke in mirrors will be coming from the Libs.

Get ready to hear a lot about the Koch brothers, corporations not paying their fair share in taxes, the evil "wealthy", and union busting.

It's going to be a long year for the Libs.

JoAnnaSmith1

As long as your dead please try and act like a dead person, your in the dark down there!!!!!

Ah, I was wondering where you were. I see some things never change.

Class tells, as usual.

Dale......They falsified medical records right out in the open.....I guess that's OK with you as long as it supports your position.....typical.....

Ever heard of the hippocratic oath?

Oh, that's nonsense, the Hippocratic Oath states that the medical practitioners vows to do no harm to his patients either through action or inaction."

In other words, he's not going to purposefully kill someone through mistreatment or allow someone to die because he can't be arsed to administer any treatment. It doesn't say anything about signing his name to a work excuse in order to help a worker participate in a wildcat strike.

I'm a bit surprised that they are because doctors in general are typical a conservative lot who do give a crap about the rights of workers, but them doing this does not break the Hippocratic Oath in any form.

DO NO HARM.........'nuf said.

I'm fully prepared!

What we are witnessing in Wisconsin is a just a glimpse of how desperate unions get when they are on the verge of losing their power.

You mean as opposed to hiring Pinkerton detectives to beat the hell out the strikers with clubs or bringing in the national guard to fire on the coal miners?

Gee, Michael T., did these things happen last week or something? I didn't see them reported on MSNBC. ...Oh wait, I think you're talking about things last happened back in the OLDEN days. Let's try to live in the present and not fearmonger, shall we? Thanks.

You mean you believe that at some point in the past century or so, mankind has become so enlightened that they aren't capable of behaving in that way anymore?

The point is that both sides are capable, and have been shown to be capable, of behaving in the worst of ways when pushed. I have no doubt that the modern corporations would be just as capable of doing the same things or worse if pushed these days.

fearmongering is their NUMBER 1 tactic, if you take that away from them, what will they have?

Gosh Michael,

You mean as opposed to hiring Pinkerton detectives to beat the hell out the strikers with clubs or bringing in the national guard to fire on the coal miners?

Now there is something from the previous 100 years or so! Unions are not required today, big government has regulated everything, from hiring to firing of the worker. They are looking out for your interests, and if they don't have a regulation or regulatory agency, government will create one for your issue. And if you are currently a union dues paying member, your paycheck, without a union, will increase due to no dues payments.

What?

If you are trying to be sarcastic, it helps if you formulate your thought in advance.

Usually one or two snappy sentences will suffice.

If you are trying to insinuate I am in a union, you are wrong. Not surprising since only about 10% of the workforce is in a union these days. If you honestly believe that the government can advocate for the workers as well as the workers can advocate for themselves, you are seriously mistaken.

If you are trying to imply something else, then I have no reply, because I have no idea what it is.

Again, people on both sides of this issue have been shown to capable of behaving atrociously in the past. Time does not change that. Just two years ago, the mine owner in West Virginia was guilty of what? 500 violations in a single year? And that was in a union mine.

How soon would it be before he just said, "Screw OSHA" altogether if the unions disappeared entirely?

You seem to imply that without unions, laws would no longer be enforced, which is uhhhhh, false.

actually the story about the dr giving work notes was talked about last week and the tea party didn't show up until Saturday