The austerity will only affect the middle and lower economic classes, not the RICH!

Republicans miscalculate on everything else, why should 'austerity' be any different?

Ron Indiana

Are Republicans miscalculating austerity? Yes...You betcha.

I agree. What I can't understand is why politico would write an article going against the grain and not cite the real labor people who said it?

Obama from a June 28th 2010 speech after the G20 Summit in Canada:

"Next year, when I start presenting some very difficult choices to the country, I hope some of these folks who are hollering about deficits and debt step up," Obama said after the G-20 summit in Toronto. "Because I'm calling their bluff."

Obama just made some very difficult choices when he proposed a budget with a $1.65 trillion deficit. Yeah, some real hard choices were made with that budget. Obama punted. He told the country "Let someone else figure it out!". He ignored his own deficit commission findings. He was critical of Republicans like Scott Walker in Wisconsin for attempting to balance that state budgets as being an "assault" on the unions.

The man is a pathetic leader, a pathetic President, and a pathetic liar that is bought and paid for by the unions.

Source: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2010/06/obama-signals-coming-battle-over-debt/1

Of course they are, math is NOT a strong suit for them, so anything that involves 'calculation' sets them back a bit!

Above written 'from the hip'; and I see Feisty has beat me to the punch! Great minds, honey, GREAT minds!

They can't help themselves. They seem to have been born that way.

JoAnna:

Have you tried peppermints for that really bad taste you always have in your mouth?

Mercy.

The wealthy are doing better than ever. The Republicans must be doing something right. Maybe they need to speed up the attack on unions, and their hard-working membership. That should help the wealthy do even better. That should also create more jobs, right? Like in the last 8 years. Right?

BTW- last week's word to be used among all the paid posters was 'punted'. I think it's something else for this week. Let me check over at 'fair-and-balanced', to see what it is.....

I think when you take polls that say---do you want to cut the deficit---it is very easy to say yes to that. I would say it myself----less deficit is better. But when it comes down to the reality of what cuts mean---that people lose jobs and important work goes undone---then it is a different matter. The reality is more difficult than the theoretical.

Same old same old from the Republican folks. "If you can't dazzle the crowd with brilliance baffle them with a line of B.S. that would make a Brahma proud"

Obama from a June 28th 2010 speech after the G20 Summit in Canada:

"Next year, when I start presenting some very difficult choices to the country, I hope some of these folks who are hollering about deficits and debt step up," Obama said after the G-20 summit in Toronto. "Because I'm calling their bluff."

Still no Liberal will step up and defend Obama statements from nearly 8 months ago. It looks like someone has stepped up Mr. President, and that would be the Republicans, both in the House of Representatives and the Republicans in many of the state houses across the country.

But where are you Mr. Obama? Your budget for 2012 includes $1.65 trillion dollars of deficit spending. That's your idea of "stepping up and calling the Republicans bluff"? The Republicans have passed $62 billion in cuts to the 2011 budget Mr. Obama, that is what they are doing to cut back the deficit spending. Where are your cuts Mr. Obama? Where is your Democratically controlled Senate this week, why are they not voting on those cuts that came from the House? They seem to be out of town, just like the Democratic cowards in Wisconsin's state senate are out of town.

It's time to step up Mr. Obama, because it appears the House lead GOP has called your bluff.

The Republicans have stepped up?

Where's their plan to balance the budget while cutting taxes?

Republicans promised they'd do it if given the House of Representatives.

All budgetary action originates in the House.

Where's their plan?

Yes,

They are only targeting $60 billion. This is just window dressing compared to what is really needed to be cut.

And there is PLENTY of room for cuts. Whole agencies that can be dissolved.

200 to 300 billion would be a good start, then more each year. This is what they were elected to do, and we, as a nation, are running out of time. When our whole economy collapses, we won't have the luxury of choice.

Guess we have to get a new president and a majority in the Senate before we have the synchronization and collective will to do what is necessary. New taxes are certainly not the answer. More revenue going to Washington is like giving more cocaine to a group of addicts. It solves nothing, and just prolongs the problem.

Republicans destroy everything for the middleclass and poor, they never do anything to build this country up. They cut good programs, out-source our jobs, steal all the monies from the government coffers disquised as war, etc.. And the sad thing is Republicans get Democrats to vote for them and when they loose their jobs (Wisconsin), homes, 401K's, etc., they look like deer caught in the headlights. The Republican want to drive this country into the ground and try to blame Obama for it, the American people don't want to remember what the Republican Party (George Bush) did to this country before Obama saved us from these crooks.

Go Barack !

(Your President until 2017)

Go Wisconsin protesters !

Don't let the bastards give a massive tax cut to the rich and then put it on the backs of the middle class !

Fight ! Fight ! Fight !

Dutchboy, your comment about losing jobs in WI is a bit off- Walker is trying to keep everyone in their job and give them back full time hours. The tax and business climate in this state has caused jobs to leave for locations with lower tax rates and right to work rules on the books

Why is it necessary to destroy the collective bargaining rights of employees to accomplish that?

Should the whole world collectively bargain, John?

Johnb (post 1.13) - Yes, stepped up, $60 billion + in recomended cuts for this fiscal year, whereas the liberals were cowards in submitting a budget for this fiscal year.

Where's their plan to balance the budget while cutting taxes?

Where is the specific news link stating this???

Republicans promised they'd do it if given the House of Representatives.

Where is the specific news link stating this??

All budgetary action originates in the House.

Really johnb? How many presidents have submitted to congress in the past what their budgetary goals are?? Think obama is striking new ground here? Your comment is like saying only congress can originate bills.

Section 7 para 1 of the constitution...

All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

The house has the responsibility to write the numbers and allocate as needed, submit for approval. all while hopefully taking into account what revenues are available to pay for the allocations. Yes Johnb, I realize that we are both walking a fine line here on our interpretations.

Where's their plan?

Where was the democrats plan for this fiscal year???

Are the democrats on board with obamas plan for fy 2012??

The republicans in the house are using the budget cutting process as a political tool to strip funding from programs which they do not agree with. The right way to approach reducing the deficit is to go through all the programs and those that are redundant, combine or cut funding. They should revamp those programs that are riddled with fraud, tighten the loopholes and impose stiffer prison sentences. The Congress should look at those programs that are ineffective, and cut the funding or modernize. If the republicans were serious, they would use the Deficit Commission's Report as a guideline to make some meaningful cuts. Isn't it ironic that the republicans on commission did not vote for the commission's findings? But they maintain that they are so interested in getting deficit spending under control. Yeah Right! They are only interested in advancing their political agenda. It is evident by the programs the want to cut; Public Broadcasting and Planned Parenthood to mention two.

The proposed cuts from the house amounts to just 4% of the total budget. Just 4%.

If we can't cut 4% off our bloated spending, then we are all doomed to failure.

I believe 4% is just window dressing. We need cuts of more like 10 to 20% every year for the next 50 years to really address the problem. But that would entail some pain, so forget it.

Edward the question is not can we cut 4% but where do we cut 4%, the Defense Budget is $700 Billion a 10% cut there would save us $70 Billion a year.

But the Republicans will continue to blindly fund both of the stupid wars we are in today the War In Afghanistan and Bush's folly that was based on lies the War in Iraq. Rather than admit that we were wrong to get in one of them and that we cant militarily win the other one.

In my own opinion a contest for the hearts and minds of a people in America or any other nation in the world can not be won at the end of a gun or the blast of a bomb.

I honestly think that Facebook, Myspace, You Tube and Gangster Rap, American Idol and other American Pop phenomenon is winning more hearts and minds than our religion and guns ever will.

Well said, USN. Don't think Wisconsin is the only place this is being fought, either. In Iowa a new bill would "preserve" collective bargaining, but in name only. http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110220/NEWS10/102200342/Will-Wisconsin-s-fight-over-unions-spread-to-Iowa-

The process would include collective bargaining and even arbitration...after which the Governor could veto the entire deal and impose his own terms.

No wonder our newly-retreaded, Tea Party-approved Governor is after 1 month approved by only 45% of the public. Less than have of Iowans believe he'll achieve ANY of his signature campaign promises.

John B:

Agreed. No matter how they try and spin it this is still about Union Busting. The union has accepted the budget cuts. The only thing left on the table is the Collective Bargaining Rights. If Walker hold fast on this alone he will prove that he is a paid Koch Union Buster, regardless of the flowering rhetoric he said on TV. He is right though, this is long term, long term suppression of the unions.

What about these results comparing private sector pay to public sector pay. This is comparing pay on a job per job basis.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm

This is where the misconceptions come in. The right is not comparing equal education and experience in their claim that unions make on average 25% more in total pay. They compare high school grads or less to people with College degrees, some with Masters and use this comparison which is not accurate at all.

Taking in account the educational level of the average employee in a job is really should not matter in these statistics. A job is an individuals choice and they are not forced to take it. If they feel like they are over educated for the job, or if they feel the job underpays for their education, then they are free to find a new one.

Speaking of education... The dumbing down of America marches on...

Anyone else see where Governor Walker spent 4 years at Marquette with a 2.59 GPA and NEVER graduated?

More celebration of mediocrity & stupidity!

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

what i had to laugh at was that governor walker retreated from trying to do this to the cops, firemen and prison guards, he chooses to attack teachers. WHAT A BIT&H
so guess who showed up in force to support the teachers and other workers, yes the cops, firemen. they had nothing to loose or gain by doing this. so governor show us what kind of man you are and go after the cops, firemen, and prision guards, he wont navy because he is nothing but a union busting bi*ch!!!!

The tide of is Turing against him when the iron workers showed up Friday, i guess he did not have to brain to realise that unions stick together.
Governor Walker is trying to bust the union but what he failed to realise is that unions stick together.

In chicago 4 years ago the city got the public sector unions to give these same concession, including ferlow days 26 per year, pay freezes, no more over time. during the snow storm 2 weeks ago snow plow drives worked around the clock with out any over time. they understood that giving back was the only way to save there jobs.

What Governor Walker underestimated was that, you can take money, benefits, overtime, pensions and what ever else but trying to rid the union of Collective barganing will sink him.

I did some research and found out that pensions are in so much trouble is because the states put the funds in the market, they lost there Ass 2 years ago when the market tanked. instead of putting the pension funds in the public employees hand like Private sector workers, the states are now forced to make workers pay more there there mistakes. i lost 20k in my retirement fund in 2009, but i unlike state employees, it was my decision to stay the course or re diversify. the states need to turn those plans over to the employees. so if they mismanage there funds its on them not the states.

Just think a former president wanted SS to be put in the market. WHAT A DISASTER THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN.

MBeaty, point taken.

But it's not that simple. Giving up a job, one gives up seniority on the job, accrued benefits and perceived employment stability. Particularly in the current market, another job may not be that easy to find. One is not forced to take any job, but the choices are not always as cut and dried as you paint them.

These choices become even more pointed when one thinks about moving for a job. There are considerations of family, housing investment, moving expenses.

Good for you that you are happy where you are. But please do not assume that the scenario is the same for everyone else.

1. Has nothing to do with " our children". Pure self-interest.

2. You ignore the fact of their budget law and the $3.6 projected deficit. Intentionally missrepresenting the argument? What's new.

3. The average salary in Madison is over $50,000.00 with secondary school teachers making almost $70,000.00. Some districts are as much as 10% higher. Three months vacation to make extra money. I'm sure the unemployed really feel sorry for them.

4. If they are so underpaid for their education level, why don't they get a job in the private sector that pays for the education level? Afraid of having to compete, be judged by their merit, afraid of not having union protections? Afraid of the real world where you can't call in sick, walk off your job, walk away from your responsibilities and throw a tantrum if you get mad?

5. Public unions need to be busted, it is wrong for the taxpayers to pay their union dues to be used by politicians to negotiate against the taxpayers best interests. Absurd, or as FDR said, unthinkable and intolerable.

...but this isn't even about that.

Umm, MBeaty,

A high school grad won't be considered for many of the public sector jobs. Of Course Education Matters! It helps you read articles for comprehension!

for instance:

But National Treasury Employees Union President Colleen Kelley says the comparison is faulty because it "compares apples and oranges." Federal accountants, for example, perform work that has more complexity and requires more skill than accounting work in the private sector, she says.

"When you look at the actual duties, you see that very few federal jobs align with those in the private sector," she says. She says federal employees are paid an average of 26% less than non-federal workers doing comparable work.

Or THIS gem:

•State and local. State government employees had an average salary of $47,231 in 2008, about 5% less than comparable jobs in the private sector. City and county workers earned an average of $43,589, about 2% more than private workers in similar jobs. State and local workers have higher total compensation than private workers when the value of benefits is included.

I will give you props though, that article had a line I found funny, the PR Manager working for the government is paid much higher. It made me think of Robert Gibbs. I don't think the government could pay my fee to take that level of crap and abuse,...HA

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

From a EPI Report released Friday: http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/policy/EPI_PolicyMemorandum_173.pdf

"But when we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons—controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability—demonstrate that full-time state and local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation (including all benefits) than comparable private sector employees".

Thanks again for the information; Navy I hope this clears up a lot of uncertainty.

"Why does it appear otherwise?

Here is the answer...

http://www.goats.com/store/images/preview_foxlies.png

Umm, MBeaty,

A high school grad won't be considered for many of the public sector jobs. Of Course Education Matters! It helps you read articles for comprehension!

Yes, I know that education matters, but comparing pay just based off of education levels is not a good way.

Federal accountants, for example, perform work that has more complexity and requires more skill than accounting work in the private sector, she says.

Of course that is what the union president is going to say about the people they represent. Would you expect anything else? If they talked down on their people they would not be a the union president.

But it's not that simple. Giving up a job, one gives up seniority on the job, accrued benefits and perceived employment stability. Particularly in the current market, another job may not be that easy to find. One is not forced to take any job, but the choices are not always as cut and dried as you paint them.

These choices become even more pointed when one thinks about moving for a job. There are considerations of family, housing investment, moving expenses.

That does not matter in this discussion. Public or private sector, anytime you take a job, no matter how good or bad the economy is you are making a decision and you have to live with the consequences until your situation can be bettered.

If I went and got a PHD, but took a job as a secretary, I should not expect to make the same as other people with PHD's. The link that Navy posted is basically assuming that education level defines pay, regardless of what field or job you are in and that is simply inaccurate.

Bob:

So tell me, How much do you believe a teacher should make? 20,000; 30,000, 40,000, 50,000.

You must not have ever had a teacher worth that much. Too Bad.

This goes hand in hand with the GOPTPs complete disdain for education. They would rather embrace mediocrity then want the best education possible for their children. They seem to think that their kid is doing OK even if all he/she is qualified to do is say,"Would you like to super-size that order?"

Using the teachers as a whipping post and blaming all of this countries budget problems on teachers unions is a misdirection ploy. It diverts peoples attention from the fact that all the GOPTP seems to know how to do is slash and burn and not improve.

If you spend a lot of time crowing about exceptional ism but attack education budgets it looks, at best, disingenuous and at worst, criminal.

MBeaty: That does not matter in this discussion

Of course it matters! It's the very purpose of collective bargaining.

There are lots of people working jobs for which they are overqualified because they want and need to work. By your definition, education would have no bearing and without collective bargaining, employers could pay what they want regardless of training and education. And you would have untrained labor or labor not trained for the positions they hold.

So tell me, How much do you believe a teacher should make? 20,000; 30,000, 40,000, 50,000.

You must not have ever had a teacher worth that much. Too Bad.

The can make what ever the market will bear. If they don't feel the public/government school system is paying them enough, maybe they should try working for the private schools. It's their choice.

Dennis Price writes: This goes hand in hand with the GOPTPs complete disdain for education. They would rather embrace mediocrity then want the best education possible for their children

As teachers are paid more and more, the profession will attract better and more competent people to the profession, leaving many of the teachers protesting about their "rights" today out of a job.

I will give you props though, that article had a line I found funny, the PR Manager working for the government is paid much higher. It made me think of Robert Gibbs. I don't think the government could pay my fee to take that level of crap and abuse,...HA

You got that right. That would be a miserable job trying to defend someone else and attempting to explain their thoughts, even when the obviously have already talked themselves into a hole.

There are lots of people working jobs for which they are overqualified because they want and need to work. By your definition, education would have no bearing and without collective bargaining, employers could pay what they want regardless of training and education. And you would have untrained labor or labor not trained for the positions they hold.

That is why there are minimum requirements on jobs. I am not trying to say at all that education does not matter or it is not important. I understand why and engineer or doctor makes more than someone working an unskilled position. I am merely stating that just because someone has a degree, it does not entitle them to a certain pay range. They will most likely seek jobs that are willing to pay them what they are worth though.

I understand that there are people working jobs they are overqualified for, but at the end of the day, a job is only able to pay an employee as little as an employee is willing to accept for the job when they choose to take it.

I understand all of what you are saying about job security and the hassle of moving. I am not terribly happy with my job, but at least it is a paycheck right now. I am looking at other options though.

JoAnna

What you said is becoming the rallying cry of the GOPTP. "America, love it or leave it", "If you don't like what the GOPTP is doing to the country, get out". I keep seeing this type of mentality over and over again on these vines. What the hell ever happened to"America we have a problem. Let's fix this?" Slashing the budget with no regard to the ramifications of what you're cutting is ridiculous. There are consequences for these actions. The saddest part is, it's the poor that are usually screwed over when this happens.

Most of these teachers love what they do and want the best for your children. All your kids are hearing from you folks is how greedy and lazy their teachers are. From that we have a classroom full of kids with zero respect for their teachers. Nice example your setting. It's tough enough teaching you kids, stop making it harder and more stressful.

Ron,

My point was that teachers are not poor under-paid victims that Navy was suggesting. Their pay seems fine to me.

Public teachers have no business being unionized. If a private school wants union teachers - fine pay whatever they can get and the market will bear. But public employees are to serve the public. The public dosen't serve the employees.

People want good education for the children, want good education to attrack business, etc. The people through their representatives can decide. Not unions who's interest is not the children, but sole interest to protect their members and their political clout.

You against the will of the people, Ron?

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Speaking of education... The dumbing down of America marches on...

Anyone else see where Governor Walker spent 4 years at Marquette with a 2.59 GPA and NEVER graduated?

More celebration of mediocrity & stupidity!

I heard worst. Not only did he not graduate; but also he got kicked out for cheating!!! That fits right in with the rest of the crooks and liar inn his party.

@ Noooooo Nooooo Jo

Here's a poll for you to dance on...

Most In Wisconsin Disagree With Governor Walker

America poll shows that the governor does not have majority support for his policy on teachers (via Political Wire).

POSTED IN LIBERALAND BY ALAN • FEBRUARY 18, 2011

As you may know, Gov. Scott Walker has proposed a plan to limit the pay of government workers and teachers, increase their share of the cost of benefits, and strip some public-employ unions of much of their power. We’d like to know if APPROVE or DISAPPROVE of Gov. Walker’s plan.

While 43.05% approve, 51.90% don’t, and, and 5.05% don’t know. But the majority also want Democratic legislators to return from their Illinois winter vacations and get back to work.

http://alan.com/2011/02/18/most-in-wisconsin-disagree-with-governor-walker/

Have fun spinning; Noooooo Nooooo Jo

I find the following to be quite ironic.

Speaking of education... The dumbing down of America marches on...

I heard worst. Not only did he not graduate he got kicked out for cheating!!! That fits right in with the rest of the crooks and liar inn his party.

I saw worst

I usually hate when people resort to picking at grammar, but that is just too funny, considering the first line of the post.

bob-1805084

Ron,

Public teachers have no business being unionized. If a private school wants union teachers - fine pay whatever they can get and the market will bear. But public employees are to serve the public. The public dosen't serve the employees.

Bob, as a son and grand son of Public school teachers, the reason why they are unionizd is because school districts in the past choosed not to pay them the going rate for a college grad, not the pay them as professionals. the reason why teachers benifets are better than private sector workers is because the in the past the districts felt it was cheaper the give benifet than pay raises , it was cheaper the give the cadilac health plans and contridute more to the pensions than to pay then as professionals. my mother went years with out a pay raise, but what she did get was the best health care the board of ed could buy. so don't blame teachers for having what they have, blame the districts for not paying up years ago.

Bob the root of this problem is that the districts, tied the pensions with the stock markets, when they tanked in 2009, the pensions lose there ass and now the states are lift hold the bag, simple soulition to this problem let the teachers, cops firemen and other public employees manage there plans. let them have the power to make decision for their future retirement not the government.

I would love to see Governor walker be a real man and go after the cops, firemen and prision guards, but he wont because he is a spine less Bi^ch that is scared of cops.

i would also see the governor be a real man and try to move the iron workers and other private unions from the State capital, he wont becasue again he would rather go after teachers than strong tough Private unions.

collective barganing is what seperates us from the communist.

This is the underlying problem with conservatives they think your healthcare and a your childs education should be gambled on the stock market. They want to strip workers of their rights. The teachers in WI need cough it up because its very important we give more tax cuts to rich corporations. An education is not important and should only be given to rich kids in private schools. As long as the rich are happy the economy will recover someday we need you to believe that. This is why it is super important we continue tax cuts for the rich because they still don't have enough money so they need your money and republicans will make sure they get it.

Bob:

Thanks for your civil comments: If you are talking about the results of the last election, yes, election results do have consequences and in a Republic, I'm for the will of the people.

What troubles me is an agenda of union breaking which was not mentioned in the dialogue in Wisconsin's race for the governorship. Believe it or not, money coming from the Koch brothers doesn't bother me so much. It is no different than money coming from Soros family.

Do you want to explain why, in your opinion public employees do not have the right to collective bargaining? You are not considering them second-class citizens...are you?

But National Treasury Employees Union President Colleen Kelley says the comparison is faulty because it "compares apples and oranges." Federal accountants, for example, perform work that has more complexity and requires more skill than accounting work in the private sector, she says.

"When you look at the actual duties, you see that very few federal jobs align with those in the private sector," she says. She says federal employees are paid an average of 26% less than non-federal workers doing comparable work.

So if the duties between the public and private sector do not align how can she make a comparison between them? I don't think I'd want this woman calculating my payroll.

and Jeff, not to fear monger or gossip monger (he he)

But many feel this move is ultimately a swipe at 'gender' bias, since the unions he is going after are predominantly female employees.

Not sure I agree with that; but it certainly is one of those things that makes you go, "hmmmm", no?

Ron,

Politics.

The unions are a tremendous political force. The public unions tax payer dollars in the way of involuntary dues from the members and give over 91% of the money to Democrat politicians. The members do not have the freedom to say where their dollars go. The unions man phone banks, organize demonstrations, etc. Again, a tremendous political force.

Do the Democrats respect this tremendous political force? Absolutely, and they serve the interests of the political force, not the tax payers, not the people. The unions use tax payer money to pay the very politicians, to put into office the very politicians - who negotiate their contracts. What is more corrupt than that?

Put yourself in our shoes. Do you want your tax dollars to be funneled to the Republican party to be used against your candidates? If you are a liberal teacher, do want union bosses telling you that you have no say in where your dues go, that they are going to the Repubs. It's corrupt.

Second class citizens if they do not have the right for collective bargaining? Unions comprise 7% of the private-sector work force. Are the 93% second class citizens? Or are the 7% the privileged.

Public unions are the privileged, they have political privilege.

Wisconsin is the perfect example. The people want reasonable, balanced budgets. Their elected representatives have tried to do this. But it all basically comes down to the tax payers vs. union.

Obama has come out and sided with the unions, not the taxpayers. And why is Obama even involving himself in a state issue when he has so many problems of his own?

Politics. Re-election.

Sorry this wasn't more articulate, anyway, thanks for the exchange Ron.

fiesty (pot 2.4) - So graduation from university + a high GPA is a requirement for success? How droll!. By your standards and other posting here today. Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Henry Ford, tom Edison, Mark Zuckerberg, among many others have no right to be where they are today.

A degree and a GPA only makes it possible to attract the attention of those entrepreneurs and risk takers looking for those willing to work for the wages and benefits offered to keep them employed..

I am sure that todays unemployed have a range of educational degrees and GPA's. I wouldn't doubt that many politicians have the same type of background. If you and your buds want to have an elitists attitude that aint gonna hurt anyone but yourselves.

Johnb - your post concerning sundays des moines register article ignores what was really said. The register provided a far better balanced report on what was happening within the government of Iowa than you would have non-iowans believe. Since you believe yourself to be an educated person why not present both sides as presented in the article and please do be careful about what is happening in wisconsin from what may happen in iowa.

american-2051576

Johnb -Since you believe yourself to be an educated person why not present both sides as presented in the article

American that would go against her religon, to persent both sides. and being apart of the human race.

Fiesty, us navy, beverly, dennis price et al...

Speaking of education... The dumbing down of America marches on...

Since we have continually been throwing more and more money at education and have still shown declining k-12 stats compared to the rest of the world, what do you propose??

Jeff-154...

because the states put the funds in the market, they lost there Ass 2 years ago when the market tanked. instead of putting the pension funds in the public employees hand like Private sector workers

Unfortunately Jeff, 401k's took a hit as well because they are also market based. BTW - I have no problem with letting the individual handle their own retirement affairs.

Speaking of education... The dumbing down of America marches on...

OK, how's this for presenting both sides;

The Governor says he'd preserve collective bargaining.

He'd reserve the right to set aside any contract his administration negotiates as well as the results of any "binding" arbitration.

So much for preserving collective bargaining.

I was kind of wondering which University Feisty graduated from, what her overall GPA was and what her Core GPA was.

yes johnb and from your link we have...

Horbach said he’s had no conversation with fellow Iowa House Republicans or the governor about getting rid of collective bargaining altogether.

Branstad wants to "restore the rights of management and ensure Iowa taxpayers have a seat at the table," his spokesman said.

Branstad told the Register that Iowa’s current collective bargaining system is too expensive. "We’ve got an unsustainable situation that was brought to a head by what happened when (former Gov. Chet) Culver just took the unions’ first demands without any negotiations," he said.

Then we have what you seem to think is the crux of the problem....

Essentially this says that the state government is responsible for budgetary issues affecting all Iowans taxes, rather than having a union or arbritor decide.

As for bransteds approval after 1 month, so what? I gave obama over a year to define his policies, but you give conservatives only days or a month at best. How liberal of you.

An arbitrator’s decision on state employees’ wages would no longer be final — either chamber of the Iowa Legislature or the governor could reject it, the bill says.

Hmmm, so much for saving changes to include block quotes, let us see if this works...

yes johnb and from your link we have...

Horbach said he’s had no conversation with fellow Iowa House Republicans or the governor about getting rid of collective bargaining altogether.

Branstad wants to "restore the rights of management and ensure Iowa taxpayers have a seat at the table," his spokesman said.

Branstad told the Register that Iowa’s current collective bargaining system is too expensive. "We’ve got an unsustainable situation that was brought to a head by what happened when (former Gov. Chet) Culver just took the unions’ first demands without any negotiations," he said.

Then we have what you seem to think is the crux of the problem....

An arbitrator’s decision on state employees’ wages would no longer be final — either chamber of the Iowa Legislature or the governor could reject it, the bill says.

Essentially this says that the state government is responsible for budgetary issues affecting all Iowans taxes, rather than having a union or arbitrator decide. Hardly an indictment against collective bargaining.

As for bransteds approval after 1 month, so what? I gave obama over a year to define his policies, but you give conservatives only days or a month at best. How liberal of you.

american--It isn't actually collective bargaining if you can go through the entire process--bargaining, arbitration if necessary--and then one party has veto power to set the whole thing aside if he doesn't like the outcome.

Branstad tried that the first time he was Governor. It cost the taxpayers $150M in back pay, interest, penalties, and court costs. He created a huge fiscal hole that Tom Vilsack had to pull us out of.

Now he just wants to overturn the bargaining process by fiat. He was elected Governor, not Caesar.

The masters of authoritarian "we will TELL you what to do" govt. overreach? I vote yes.

And I vote for your vote! lol

Politico mentioned exactly that, John- and added that the DNC is seeking to distance itself from reports of its involvement.

I'm guessing the polling did not look too good.

I suppose that means that they will pull out of Ohio, stay out of Indiana, Missouri, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey- which is too bad, really.

I would have loved to have seen my governor do to the DNC what it deserves to have done- sue it out of existence.

Dream on nojo, dream on at your peril.

The GOp will never disappoint in how they over reach and over calculate. There is a sleeping giant out there, that WI is awakening, keep dreaming and wishing your Presidnt would disappear and every Dem with him, it will never happen.

I would have loved to have seen my governor do to the DNC what it deserves to have done- sue it out of existence.

I'm generaly liberal but I don't want the RNC to cease to exist. I prefer the two party system. I would not want to live in a country where one party has control of everything.

JohnB.....I posted this to you on an earlier thread, I think it bears repeating.

between 2005 - 2009, the Koch Bros. donated to Wisconsin politics a princely sum of $2.6 million of which $2.1 million went to various GOP candidates and causes and the balance went to Dems.

That's 81% of the total went to GOP/TP. Who says they are not buying their way to vanquishing the middle class.

And to this I would add, how much have they donated to other states for the same nefarious reasons.

Here is the problem, GM- the real reason for these protests is being kept hidden by the media in general, the the unions in particular.

I heard Walker on the Sunday talk shows, and he revealed the actual reason for these protests, as well as why the police and firefighters unions have joined in, despite being exempt from the pension/ benefit cuts.

It seems that the governor wants to get the state out of the position of middleman when it comes to collecting union dues. It costs the state millions to collect and transfer the monies- he thinks the membership ought to pay the unions directly. Now, ask yourself, why would the unions have a problem with that?

He also wants the membership to have the right to vote to re-certify the unions every year. Given that the unions believe that their membership is helpless without their representation, why would the unions buck elections to re-certify their representation?

Most, if not all, the the union membership had no input as to their representation- they came into their jobs with unions firmly entrenched, well before they were even born. Why on earth would the unions fear elections?

Those are the questions I would like answered- seems to me that most liberals do not even like them to be posed.

If that's the "real reason" why does the bill remove virtually all rights to collective bargaining?

Saying that's the "real reason" to defend a bill that goes MUCH farther should be easy to fix...amend the bill.

Or Walker is lying.

Or Walker is lying.

And NJNB is self-medicating... again...

Charles, Arlington

I agree; but I do expect a certain amount of FAIR and HONEST brokering by the opponent. They have shown that there is no gutter to deep for them to invent their lies and misrepresentations!

nojoe

I see you showing your usual "mastery" of every topic by portending to understand Unions and Collective Bargaining. Please stop. It's getting too painful to watch, even on the surface.

In a TV interview this morning Scott Walker said he would not consider a compromise that would remove collective bargaining for 2 years as a trial/test of the impact of such a law.

The Governor has dug his heals in and now it is up public opinion which has recently moved away from the Governor.

I heard that Dennis - so much for compromise!

Walker cashed the check from the Koch Brothers and now has to deliver the 'goods'!

The Governor has dug his heals in and now it is up public opinion which has recently moved away from the Governor.

Has that public opinion shifted to the taxpayers of Wisconsin agreeing to pay more and more in taxes for a failing public school system?

It's interesting that most of the teachers that abandoned their students to participate in this wildcat strike are from the Milwaukee school system, the system with some of the worst nationalized test scores in the country.

It's looking more and more like the governor has about...roughly 10 more months in office. A lesser amount of time for 8 Republican senators. Those impeachment petitions are coming hot off the press.

As usual nojo, you have the wrong end of the stick and what's more you've twisted it.

If you are relying on Scott Miller and Fox to enhance your argument, you need to broaden your horizons. Scott Mller has no intention of changing the bill anymore than I have to vote for a TPer.

He stated categorically this morning to Chuck Todd, who asked him point blank, will you consider the union offer of setting aside the bargaining rights for a year or two until the budget has been settled, he answered no, absolutely not. That tells me he is only interested in union busting for his undrwriters, the Koch Bros and Co. Nothing else.

Ronnie Indy: It's looking more and more like the governor has about...roughly 10 more months in office. A lesser amount of time for 8 Republican senators. Those impeachment petitions are coming hot off the press

What a laugh. So Doc Ron, what impeachable offense has Scott Walker committed? Come'on now Doc, you blather on endlessly with your liberal fantasties, and now it's time to back it up. And of course any impeachement trial would be in the Wisconsin State Assembly, where Republicans are in the majority, 60-38. You're full of it Ronnie.

He doesn't have to be impeached. He can be recalled.

He doesn't have to be impeached. He can be recalled.

One wonders if the 14 Democrats that fled the Wisconsin State Senate for their safehouse in Illinois can be recalled, or impeached, or just plain thrown out of office, you know for abandoning their jobs, the very jobs for which they took the oath of office?

Don't hear much talk about that from the Liberals.

He doesn't have to be impeached. He can be recalled.

Can we do that with Obama too?

Dennis of columbus - Why not tell us the rest of the story of the interview when walker said that he considered that option to only be a short term solution not a lasting long term solution to the budget problems facing wisconsin. He didn't want short term solutions.

american,

As usual you have all the answers

Dennis - Thank you, I do so want to try and emulate the FR liberals posters here. Just hope that I can present the same unbiased rhetoric that they do, after all language has consequences.

american,

I didn’t say you had ANY of the correct answers.

Dennis, as long as the answers make others think of alternatives. Only history will show what political, social and economic answers were correct. Then again, such areas are always subject to ones POV.

BTW - since the single family houising market is still in decline guess wanton borrowing & spending by the owners wasn't such a good thing.

That is the part I don't understand, Jody---with unemployment so high, if government jobs are cut, those people can't just go to the private sector to get another job. So you have to think that the Republicans just don't care. "So be it", indeed.

The conspiracy theorist in me has to wonder if they are pushing for government cuts to drive the slowly shrinking unemployment rate back up before the presidentials. But that's just my tin-foil hat mind working. The Republicans would never be that crass. I really really hope it's just the tinfoil hat mind working...

Brian - funny! I thought it was standard politics (R or L) to try and keep kicking the can down the road.

Hmmmmm.... Democrats control the senate, Obama controls the executive branch and the republicans kind of control the purse strings. Let obama veto and senate block the republicans FY 2012 budget (when submitted) or the houses proposed 60 billion in budget cuts for FY 2011. Won't matter in 2012, the campaign ads will be just as negative in 4th quarter 2012 as they were in 2010.

No Joe: A much better question would be "are the Democrats miscalculating on the debt?".

And THAT was addressed in the First Read article.

It is the democrats who are completely out of touch with the electorate. It is now a fringe, regional party

Yet, it is the Republicans who have crawled into bed with the Tea Party...

Warm & Toasty!!!!!

nicely stated true american.

Fieldon - didn't beverly just the other day post a link for a new liberal party pac being formed...progressive united??

Say it correctly, Christie's supporters backed his cuts and Christie's supporters want to impose deeper cuts. Christie is not supported by all of New Jersey's citizens and he is governing as such!

Christie is the poster boy for only a fraction of the citizens of New Jersey.

BUsbus - isn't that the nature of politics, has anyone really garned 100% support?

You are ASSuming that no one will step in to fill those vacant spots if union workers quit? Working for the state govs? Puleeese! Most will be filled before lunch the same day! If not, what 800k jobs being dumped onto the private sector are you talking about?

They are cutting jobs not hiring and it is thousands in multiple states. Just more people with good educations chasing the jobs in the private sector. So instead of 1,000 people applying for a job now it will be 3,000 for each job.

Not to mention that they are eligible for unemployment payments - which cost money.

And you loose the interents. Any reference to Hitler or the Nazies automaticaly disqualifies you. ;)

While I get and agree with your point, find a way to make it with out invoking the Nazies.

Brian, as painful as it may be to you, the truth is, the tactics are the same no matter the cause......no matter where or the color of their shirts. Bullying and intimidation, if unchecked or unchallenged, are the actions that lead to the same results in Germany in the 30s. I, for one, will not be silent, as to do so, allows the cowards and bullys of the world to feel empowered.

If people are honest with themselves and read history books, there is a lot to keep us vigiliant that much of what happened before us must never happen again. I hope you understand my point

Brian, angellight didn't call the Republicans Nazis. Angellight pointed out that Republican Conservatives are doing something the Nazis did.

Godwin's Law doesn't say you're required to ignore the facts.

It does require you to use an alternate mettaphore that doesn't cause an immediate visceral reaction. If we complain about the TeaPublicans using Commuinism and Nazis to compare the wants of liberals, then we can't use those some comparisons for actions of the Teapublicans.

One could have said. "One of the fist actions of many Authoritarian regimes is to ban unions of all types." And give multiple examples of that happening, from the Nazis to other authoritarian regimes that mimicked that style of government. This avoids the appearance of calling someone a Nazi, and gets your point across much more effectively.

OK Brian, I'll buy that.

You're right that Nazi references are so volatile that they have the potential to immediately turn the debate in a direction that isn't productive.

Nazis also built the world's first limited access, high speed superhighways. The Autobahn isn't a bad thing.

Nazi's did a lot of engineering, and scientific discovery as well, (Jet Engine anyone?), but that doesn't counter the massive, massive, negatives of the World War II.

We have been trained by movies, war propoganda, and common human decency, that the Nazi's were the single most vile organization to have come into power anywhere ever, that any reference immediatly shuts down the ability of people to read a message in context. It is an unfortunate part of the way the human brain has been trained. :)

Brian from Seattle

And from that same propaganda machine (or one eerily similar) we are being 'trained' to believe Democrats are the NEW '...most vile organization...'

Don't mind us while we fight back at that inaccurate assessment. And in so doing borrow a page from the Republican Playbook. We are nothing if not sentient beings who CAN and WILL let past be prologue,...

Clara,

I'm not saying don't fight back, but the Nazi label doesn't help fight back. It just turns people off. Showing how Authortarian Regimes are formed using the Repbulican Tactics are fine, just don't use Nazis. Seriously, it weakens the argument no matter how good your intentions.

Use Saddam Hussein, or Iran. Show how the Actions of the Repbulicans are reminicent of the rise of the Ayatollahs. Show how they are representative of opressive regimes in other Arabic countries, or other countries. Nazis just have such a gut responce that they turn off most readers.

anyone have a list of unions that the republican political party has disbanded?

Angelight - please do tell us why the democrats have supported tax loopholes for corporations and the shipping of jobs overseas?

While you are at it why not explain how the consumers greed for low cost consumer goods forced the corporations to seek lower manufacturing costs by going overseas to compete on price. Just how many cell phones, flat screen TV's and other electronics does the American consumer need?

Steeler, I happen to think it was a referendum on the economy and therby lack of job.

I keep wondering, why on Saturday, in Wisconsin, the pro Walker supporters were outnumbered 35-1, and that includes the bus loads the Koch Bros paid to attend including, the master of deceit, Andrew Breitbart, of the Shirley Sherrod defamation.

As Scott Walker won by a little over 123K, where did they all go to? Are they now realising they bought a lemon and and are now keeping a their heads down, which they ought to, in shame for buying pretty words of easy budget balance, debt reduction and not asked exactly how?

Gingerbread---I agree with you--I do think most people were expressing an opinion on the economy and jobs. But I understand that people can think differently. I do think that it was not an abiding love for Republicans, as they seem to want to believe. Time will tell.

I do think there is buyer's remorse in Wisconsin and elsewhere. Hopefully those memories will last until 2012.

Gingerbread, It Truly doesn't matter who we think the man behind the curtain is. it doesn't matter if we think the evil is Koch or Soros. It will be up to people like you and me to clean up this mess. The hardworking people always clean up the mess politicians make.

Idaho Grandmother, as one grandma to another, we have to speak out for grandchildren's future education. My daughter was mostly educated by private schools including college, although she and her husband make lot more than either her parents, private schools are not on the agenda for my grandchildren.

I volunteer at our local elementary school and I see how hard the teachers and administration work to help make the children successful. Eighty per cent of the studentbody is Hispanic and low income so there is much the teachers have to contend with and provide. I support all teachers and always have, in Fl where I live the public school teachers are being threatened with the same treatment as in Wisconsin, as we have TP Governor. Glad to see you here, keep posting.

You were expecting this miserable, left bent excuse for journalism called MSNBS to tell the truth? Instead of cosigning the liberal BS of all 26 of it's serious readers. Puleeesee! Sometimes the amusement value is worthwhile though.

I believe the democratic constituency will be hit a lot harder than the Tea Party constituency, by the scenario you describe. In fact I know that to be the case. BTW....Do you ever intend to make sense?

Jed,

I know you don't know. As far as making sense, your side has failed on every front.

Becks 72. There is one SMALL, glaring defect in your reasoning. The money that pays those gov workers has already been taken out of the economy through taxes. Your reasoning suggests that I could take one dollar from the pot, put .60 back in and everything is flush. Letting go of gov workers can not hurt the economy if the money to pay them is left in it.

OK Jed, so who runs the basic necessities of the governement? How do you convince people to do the daily business of the Gorvernment with out paying them? In addition, how do you retain Qualified, worth while people to do those jobs, if you don't pay them a comporable salary to the private sector? Explain exactly how you would run a government with the lowest common denominator employee?

You go on and on about the cushy job of Public Workers, but you have yet to explain how many of these necessary tasks would be accomplished with out them? Eliminate the people who process permits, and you have to eliminate the permits. With out the permits, you get some really screwed and dangerous housing and building construction. (Look to many third world contries for examples).

Eliminate Teachers? Who then educates our children? Do you have time to do it? Or is it just that you want all the wives to stay home and do this. Or perhaps it should be done by Governesses the way it was done in the 1800's. So those with out money simply can't get educated, yeah our economy would tank so fast under that setup, you'd be lucky to keep what ever job you currently have.

Lets see.. Sanitation workers? Welp, guess you are driving your own garbage to the dump, or just leaving it piled up around your house. OH yeah, and eliminate those electircal workes to, (Public Utilities and all), nope no one to fix the power lines when they break.

Better eliminate those Road workers to, can't have anyone fixing our roads, or building new ones.

Bus Drivers? In their cushy chairs, driving those big busses all over town? Eliminate them, we won't have roads anyways so no need. Oh and judges don't need clerks to arrainge for casses, they'll just sit in their courts and take casses as they come. Oh yeah, and Jury's are made up of who ever bother's to show up today for the job, since we don't need any government workers to creat jury rolls.

The effect of not having government workers is just monumental. The idea that we can operate any government with out them is just assinine. People will not volunteer to do these jobs, not when they need to work in the private sector to feed their children. Corporations are to greedy to be trusted TO do these jobs. I really don't want a corporation issuing building permits, especially when they will be benefiting from said permits, do you?

And do those government worker collect unemployment or go straight on welfare ? I don't question the need to eliminate those jobs only the poor timing ! At this stage of a fragile jobless recovery cutting jobs of any kind is insane. Would it save money yes but what are the other consequences ?

Becks, The point is that there is alot of extra fat that needs to be trimmed. It could be absorbed one of two ways. Less pay or less workers when it comes to gov spending. In the private sector, productivity skyrocketed after 08. The public sector stayed inefficient and wasteful as ever, keeping bennies and pension plans that the equal job private worker would kill for. While growing at an astounding rate. Those are the facts! To break it down, the equal job private workers had to work twice as hard for less money than the public sector. All the while, paying their salaries. How long do you think that is going to fly? Sooner or later, the golden goose is going to turn into an alligator. Please remember that the government already receives .40 of every dollar that the economy produces in earnings. Enough is enough. If not now, when?

Nice Jed. Now back it up.

Where is the fat. Give specifics. Generlizations leaves it far to open to interpretation. There are inefficiencies in any Beuarcracy, but just stating "Trim the fat" doesn't help improve them. Document them, bring them forward. I hear this call so often, with out any real evidence to back it up. No documentation, no neutral reporting, just "There is so much fat!" Really?

Show it.

Are you serious, brian? Man, just google it. Doesn't matter which sides point of view ya want to believe. There is plenty to go around.

I'm not saying there isn't areas for improvement, Jed. But simply spouting out "TRIM THE FAT" doesn't identify it. Everyone has their own opinion on what is fat and what is necessary beuacracy. Identifying actuall redundant areas isn't as easy as you might think. Give it a try.

Take for example the attempt by President Obama to use the Pacific Northwest Salmon Managment as an example, unfortunately, on deeper inspection, there isn't as much redundancy as was supposed. Salmon Management is set up in a specific way that makes sence based on their habitate, and actually isn't managed by two seperate agencies for fresh water versus salt water. More like, in US waters, and out of US waters. Two very different jurisdictions.

So, take a shot. What do you see as Fat that needs to be trimmed?

Industry standard pay and bennies for gov workers.

And these workers agreed to that? What else?

And what about those areas where they are paid less then industry standard? Do we get to raise their pay?

Never have seen such a place. Also, what these workers have agreed to was a temporary cut in pay and a very modest 7% payment for their HC plan and temporary pension payment increase. Bennies that the private sector have never heard of. So next cycle they just go back to riding the tax payers into the ground. This governor is trying to stop that cycle. If they feel so strongly about it. Why don't they just quit their positions and work elsewhere? Because their positions would be filled by workers ready to work by lunchtime tomorrow.

That's not what's being Reported Jed. They agreed to the tax cuts, and bennie package, as a permanent thing. They just asked the wording that removed collective barganing be removed.

They moved well past the midway point, yet the Govenor won't budge one step.

Imagine this was a democrat working on say Gay marraige. He presents a bill that says Gay Marraige is legal, and a repbulican minority ran away, what would you be saying?

Collecting barganing is a cornerstone of Workers Rights. You are asking the Dems to give up one of the Planks of their beliefs, with out giving anything back. It is no longer about the money, that's been given back, it's about removing this single plank, and it is wrong.

Jed233..wake up! Fat Trimming is a code word for 'how much can I get out of it'. The more tax cuts your people afford their rich buddies the more they get too. What do you get out of it?.... a mere empty thank you. They are using you and your vote to get them power. You give them what they need and in return; you pay more at the grocery stores( the last time I checked, the prices have yet to be adjusted], unemployment will go up and the list goes on. Yet... YOU get NOTHING! We need all 50 states to uniformly raise corporate taxes on these rich corporations and wall street companies. These companies won't have reason to take their businesses elsewhere to get away from paying higher taxes. If the states do just that and then ask the middle class workers to chip in, as a worker I will breath easier and be willing to sacrifice. Gov.Walker is just working for himself so ... wakeup!

So Jed, would you be too much of a chickenhawk to cut defense? We spend $700 billion a year on defense, and Sec. Gates said last week, he only needs $540 billion/year. Maybe the Republicans could cut the $100 billion they promised, right there from defense, and still have some leftovers to spare. Then ask yourself just how much you would cut from medicare, and medicaid, since these are 3 of the 4 elephants in the room? Wouldn't you consider that a start, rather than trying to completely gut the 12% discretionary spending of the budget that doesn't come from those 3? If all of the cuts you want to make come from that 12% you aren't really doing anything in a real mathematical reduction process. Gotta take on the big elephants in the room, if you want to make real changes to the budget. Food for thought.

The savings from closing five hundred foreign military bases and a fifty percent cut in foreign aid and support for the UN would put us in tall clover. Oh ending these wars that we will loose any way would not hurt .

They are not feeding, they are mentally masturbating. Things that are real are too much for them.

Does that make you two Yahooz voyers?

ewwwwwwwwwwww! I feel so NAKED!

Get over yourselves.

No Clara...It makes us independent thinkers!..............what "surveys"?

Okay, TA

If you think this qualifies as 'thinking', go for it.

So Clara, I guess you don't care what "surveys" FR is talking about as long as it supports your opinion?

.......and that is what liberals call "thinking"

TA

Since you've already predisposed the outcome by declaring it a '...leftist agenda...', I take it at face value.

Pretty much the same way the Rasmussen Poll spinning around today underscores the Right Wing belief system.

If you KNOW this about the site, I'm curious why you choose to spend so much time here? Are you really seeking validation for your belief system here? Or is it because it is so much fun to dander up the opposition? Imma' go with the second answer. I know that's why I participate!

It's because it's SO much fun to dander up the opposition....you know hit them with FACTS and such......

and because, just in case there are any of those "youths" lurking around here, I want them to have a different take on the indoctrination propaganda......do you NOT have a leftist agenda?

btw.....I hit the vote button on your post by accident....so, you still only have the vote you clicked for yourself.

Oh, SNAP, TA

but I didn't vote for myself.

and you might go ahead and post a link when you're '...back to posting FACTS...' as yet, me and my compatriots haven't been able to find any in your usual drivel.

TA, I told ya already. Libs don't think. They mentally masturbate. Self satisfying but has nothing to do with reality!

jed33.........I think it's actually a circlejerk.

Quite possibly.

If it's a circlejerk, why are you guys standing in the middle of it? On 2nd thought.....I don't want to know that badly.

Technically the Koch bros only own 1 1/2 branches of our government. They are working on the Senate and Presidency; but they aren't there yet.

Absolutely jo ann. This is part of an effort to pit union against nonunion, public sector against private, manufacturing against service sector, poor against middle class...all the while ignoring the plutocracy that is rapidly concentrating more and more wealth into their own hands.

..........and you guys talk about the right's CONSPIRACY THEORIES....lmfao, John

Really TA? The Kochs were Scott Walker's 2nd biggest campaign contributor. The Kochs fund Americans for Prosperity, the Tea Party group that arranged to bus counter protesters to Madison. The Kochs are major benefactors of Glenn Beck, who started warning of "Egyptian-style riots" just as the bill was introduced in the Wisconsin Senate. Koch Industries subidiaries are at 17 locations in Wisconsin and thus benefitted heavily from the business tax breaks that created this phony crisis.

There's no need to put together leaps like Glenn Beck's "George Soros is starting to invest in gold, therefore he's planning to destroy the United States" in order to connect these dots.

Careful John, your "Crazy" is starting to show!

So, your ok with the protesters that were BUSSED in to support the teachers, just not the protesters that may have been bussed in to support the govenor, right?

I believe it was last friday that feisty was going to drive herself to Wisconsin in support of the teachers, but let ANYONE show up and support the gov. and you guys foam at the mouth.

I will remind you that Gov. Walker was JUST elected by the MAJORITY of the people of Wisconsin to do exactly what he is doing. GO GOV. WALKER!!!!

Nothing crazy there TA, it's all readily documented through mainstream sources.

Actually I'm fine with those protesters, TA...notice the TP protesters were outnumbered 35 to 1 and I'd say that speaks volume to the overreach that Conservatives are attempting.

If Walker was elected to destroy collective bargaining rights for employees I'm going to need to ask for proof of that. Otherwise you're asserting that Walker was victorious therefore it's the responsibility of the opposition to stand out of the way and let him do whatever he wants.

I doubt that's the case.

John B. Tell that "responsibility of the opposition" shiit to your messiah.

Awww, poor jed got nuthin' and it upsets him...

Always interesting when John B. won't answer the questions!
I believe that's 3 for today, huh John?
I guess it's hard to continue to be sanctimonious when you don't have a leg to stand on.........lol

I answered...if you don't like the answers you don't just get to ignore it and ask for a different answer.

Although that seems to be typical for Conservatives.

This isn't actually to surprising, Bob. And really means nothing until closer to the election. It was kind of hard for anything to shift further towards Democrats then they did in 2008. They had taken as much ground as they were going to gain, and were up against solid firewalls in much of the country.

However, a new generation of voters is coming up, at least as large as the baby boomers, and the Millineum generation is already more liberal then the GenXers. Which way do you think it will go in the long run? (Your short terms gains are only hurting you in the long run, honestly.)

Bob, I don't know what kinda' tobacco you are smoking where ever you are from but there is NO WAY in heck Kansas, Alabama, Montana and SD have been considered "Leaning" Democratic. WTH?

And Missouri has NEVER been leaning Democratic. They didn't even VOTE for President Obama. You guys will just lap up any BS they sit in front of you. Oklahoma? Louisiana? Did you even THINK about this before you decided to post it?

Geesh, you're starting to sound more and more like a nojo minion every day. Whatever, troll, whatever!

PS. This little stunt in WI will return that state to it's blue hue,...Funny thing about 'bleach' - it grows out and you're stuck with the roots of your problem,...

Miguel, what makes you think the Republicans who refused to back tax breaks for small business and filibustered removal of tax breaks for moving jobs overseas have any intention of fixing the trace imbalance?