It's not about the budget, it's about the collective bargaining rights. The Dems and the unions offered to compromise and give Walker what he wanted on the pension and health care issue if they could keep their collective bargaining rights and the Gov and the Rebubs said no way. They said NO COMPROMISE. If it were about the budget, they would be willing to take the offer to comply with the part of the bill that affects the budget. They just want to get rid of the unions. (Except the ones that contributed to the Gov's campaign - they get to keep theirs.)

This whole scenario is appalling. There was NO budget deficit problem in Wisconsin until the Republican Governor and Legislature gave huge tax cuts to their wealthy Masters. That's a fact. Now the Republicans continue to try to insist on paying for their tax breaks for the wealthy by attempting to eliminate the Unions and by slashing programs to feed, shelter, and provide care to the poor and disabled. I applaud the Democrats use of any tactic necessary to prevent these from happening. Nothing they do can be worse than the Republicans' attempts to let old people die by eliminating Medicare and Social Security. Let Grandma and Grandpa die in poverty to protect Corporate profits and billionaires from paying their fair share of taxes? Good job guys!

"There was NO budget deficit problem in Wisconsin until the Republican Governor and Legislature gave huge tax cuts to their wealthy Masters."

When did this happen? This Governor just took office 51 days ago. Before him, it was Democrat. So you're saying this all happened in 51 days?

So you're saying this all happened in 51 days?

Believe or not, yes, all this did happen in 51 days. Government can move fast when you least expect it to.

The Scales have definitely shifted towards public workers, My aunt who is a school teacher's pension is far less than what i will be receiving if i retire form my job. Don't believe what some people are saying....

The Independent-2245816

The real problem is the budget, and for that I would like to hear alternative suggestions to managing down the pension & health care costs.

I disagree the real problem is the Republicans attempt to union bust in order to lessen the members of the Democratic Party; even Karl Rove said so.

Karl Rove admitted it on Fox News on Wednesday. If you can bust the unions then their money will dry up for the 2012 presidential elections. Since private unions have gone down since Reagan declared war on them from 35% to 7%, Republicans are focusing on the public unions, the last source of cash for the Democrats to fight against the Citizen's United ruling. This is just the opening salvo. If they succeed in WI, it will spread to all other states, and we will no longer have a democracy. We will have a corporatocracy.

http://thespiritualprogressive.blogspot.com/2011/02/war-against-public-sector-unions.html

The solution should be Gov. Walker sitting down with the unions to discuss "collective bargaining since the unions have conceded the monetary aspect.

@ The Independent ~ You're absolutely wrong and don't know anything about it. The real problem is that the governor blew an artificial hole in the budget at a Special Session in January by proposing and ramming through $140 million in tax cuts for the wealthy. If the budget was in such a fragile position, then why did he propose those cuts? Ask yourself that question.

The answer isn't very far to seek. He proposed $140 million in cuts so he could then ram through a $137 million budget repair bill. If you don't believe me, read this article ....

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

This was written by John NIchols, a very respected journalist and Madison native who now works for The Nation. But if you don't believe Nichols, read the underlying Legislative Fiscal Bureau Report.

Walker ran on the need to make cuts, including cuts to pay and benefits, but he never mentioned this little bit about throwing out collective bargaining rights. You don't know, I'm sure, that the firefighters and the police officers are marching with other public workers, even though they're not affected. They're not affected only because they supported Walker in the election. I doubt they support him anymore.

So, the collective bargaining issue IS the big deal here for the public workers, who have already made a counterproposal conceding the cuts that Walker has proposed. Yet, the governor still insists that his proposal on collective bargaining is non-negotiable.

NOW tell me again, but without your smug, uninformed ignorance, what this is all about.

And if public sector employees make more than their private sector counterparts -- it simply isn't true by the way; in Wisconsin it's about 5 percent LESS -- so what? Why shouldn't private sector workers aspire to do better, rather than insisting that others be brought down to their level? If public workers have it so good, then why doesn't everyone do it? And why don't private sector workers just go get unions?

Why not lift everyone up instead of dragging everyone down?

I'll tell you why. Because DOWN is the direction that republicans want to take workers, and so far they're winning.

Paul ~

When did this happen? This Governor just took office 51 days ago. Before him, it was Democrat. So you're saying this all happened in 51 days?

Read my post, Paul, and the linked article. It happened in less than 51 days. Really.

For heaven's sake, everyone, please INFORM YOURSELVES BEFORE YOU START SPOUTING IGNORANT NONSENSE. Ignorant nonsense is just what republicans want you to think.

Well, I learned something interesting this weekend: the REAL reason for these labor protests.

No, it is not cutting back on collective bargaining rights. It is, however, about what is called " union busting".

I heard Walker on the Sunday talk shows. It seems that he has two pretty interesting proposals that the unions do not like AT ALL.

See, it costs Wisconsin a couple of million every year to collect and distribute union dues. He wants the membership to simply pay their union dues to the unions- cutting out the state as the middleman.

He ALSO believes that the membership should be allowed to vote on whether or not to maintain their union as their representative. What could be more American than giving people the right to vote for representation?

THAT, by the way, is why the police and firefighter union have joined these protests.

If the unions are so wonderful, why would they fear having their members pay their dues directly to them, never mind letting them vote on whether or not they want to belong to the union at all? After all, if union membership is such a great thing, the elections should be a slam dunk, no?

Seems to me that there is nothing so unAmerican as being forced to belong to any group- let alone pay for the privilege.

Anna Molly

Thanks for the information. Why is it so difficult for some to accept facts? I can understand a quibble when it is opinionated; but when it's explained in plain and simple facts I just don't get it.

To answer Paul's question, this is when and why it happened according to the NYT...

Just last month, he and the Legislature gave away $117 million in tax breaks, mostly for businesses that expand and for private health savings accounts. That was a choice lawmakers made, and had it not been for those decisions and a few others, according to the state's Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the state would have had a surplus.

But he also decided a budget crisis was a good time to advance an ideological goal dear to his fellow Republicans: eliminating most collective bargaining rights for public employees.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/opinion/18fri1.html?_r=3&hp

As you point out the reason is the republicans want the middle class to go down; Anna Molly

They want this so democrats will appear unproductive so they can regain the WH and continue their pursuit of greed and betrayal.

Karl Rove made it very clear. See post 1.6

When someone as far left as Joe Klein calls this the "Hemlock Revolution"- you have got yourself a losing cause.

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/02/18/wisconsin-the-hemlock-revolution/

I wait, with bated breath, to see the reaction to Obama's inserting himself in this losing cause- the daily tracking polls will tell the story. However, internal polling may be telling them the story- the DNC is now seeking to distance itself from these protests, according to a story on Politico.

Seems the writers on this site are psychic- they would not touch the story of Obama dispatching OfA and the DNC to Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, and Missouri with a ten foot pole, when even the Huffington Post reported on it, with breathless admiration, no less.

I guess your status as Obama's PR wing is safe- well, until maybe Comcast starts asking questions about why you do not report news everyone else covers.

Or why your ratings are so low.

Maybe the two go hand in hand?

Governor Walker and his GOP legislature passed three separate tax cut bills since taking office--decreasing taxes on the richest of residents and big business including multi-national businesses. For years we have been hearing from republicans that the tax rates on businesses is too high yet big corporations actually pay little to nothing in taxes. Genuine Mom & Pop small businesses see little benefit of those tax cuts. Instead of broadly targeting business as a whole, focus on making the tax base better for the genuine small businesses within the state--the ones that do not make multi-million dollar profits.

As we see in Wisconsin and soon to follow in GOP states across the country, the cost for these tax cuts for the wealthiest of people and business will be passed to public employees and private citizens--it's the average worker and resident who will ultimately subsidize the tax breaks for a small portion of any state's population. We watched that happen nationally during the Bush 43 years--the massive debt created by Bush and his GOP has caused great damage to the Government's ability to function and to its ability to help get the economy rolling again. Tax cuts sound wonderful but no one is willing to acknowledge that taxes can be too low and can hamper federal, state and local governments' abilities to provide the services needed, the protections necessary. We have seen the harm caused to the American worker, the economy by 30 years of trickle-down, voo doo economics and it is not pretty.

Contrast what Walker is doing in Wisconsin to Minnesota's Governor. He solved MN's budget crisis by raising taxes 3% on the richest residents. That protects jobs in both public and private sectors allowing the economy to continue growing. If wages are reduced, it means less money in the economy for discretionary spending which means less revenues and the snow ball of decline continues.

I find it troubling that republicans speak as if "public" jobs aren't real jobs. Tell that to your childrens' teachers, the garbage pickup crews, the snowplow drivers, fire and police. They are real jobs and they are important to maintaining civilized and functioning local and state enterprises. Are there changes that can be made to pension and health care payments, absolutely, but busting the right's of people to bargain collectively is simply removing workers' rights to be heard, to argue their case and to protect themselves.

no joe, no bo, nj

Well, I learned something interesting this weekend: the REAL reason for these labor protests.

No, it is not cutting back on collective bargaining rights. It is, however, about what is called " union busting".

I heard Walker on the Sunday talk shows. It seems that he has two pretty interesting proposals that the unions do not like AT ALL.

Dr NoNo Jo

I learned too. I think this sums it up

http://www.behindthehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/bush_target.jpg

The budget deficits in Wisconsin are a ruse and something I think most people know.

If Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker isn’t trying to strip most collective bargaining rights from public employees, then why do workers keep pouring into Madison by the thousands to demonstrate against him?
Your post was an opinion not a fact;read this opinion if you will.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02. 21/opinion/21krugman.html?src=me&ref=general

Jody- did he pass a law forcing those "rich" people to stay in Minnesota? Put up a fence around the state to keep them in?

Minnesota has a hard enough time keeping residents due to the climate; I cannot imagine why it would be a good idea to have a political climate that was equally poor.

The "tax cuts" Walker enacted were for NEW businesses entering the state, and for NEW business expansion. One hundred per cent of nothing is still nothing- no matter who the governor happens to be. Attracting businesses to employ people would seem to be a good idea for the state- besides which, he CAMPAIGNED on it.

And got elected, which is something the unions and democrats do not seem to accept.

The endgame is breaking the unions. Walker as much as said so, to GEORGE WILL. Since the SCOTUS Citizens United ruling, corporations & unions can donate unlimited cash to elections. Corporations usually back Republicans, while unions usually back Democrats. Walker thinks this can eventually weaken unions ability to donate---if their membership diminishes--leaving corporations buying any election they wish. The Koch brothers connection to Walker just confirms this.

And, yes--January first, there was no budget crisis in Wisconsin. Walker then gave $137 million in corporate tax breaks, creating the deficit, for which he blames the unions. Had he not given those tax breaks, we'd not be having this conversation.

Right Pat,

and all state employees in Wisconsin should be given whatever their hearts desire. that is only fair.

When Wisconsin goes belly-up, the federal government should bail them out. This sets a sterling example for the rest of the states. All of us who pay taxes should be proud to have our hard-earned tax dollars go towards protecting the incomes of the privileged few in Wisconsin who happen to belong to a public sector union.

This is only fair.

Edward

The police, firefighter, and state troopers unions endorsed the current governor during the election, and now all 3 are exempt from losing their collective bargain while the union who didn't support him are losing theirs. This has the perception of political reprisal, which violates both Wisconsin law and federal law.

No they should be renamed the SDP Socialist Democratic Party. This titlw suits them fine.

Ask Pelosi and Obama where are the jobs. They won the last general election with the promise of jobs, and prosperity. Instead we got Obama Care , Pelosi Care and Shovel ready jobs. Now take that and shovel it.

Why not ask the GOP? They got the tax cut extension for the rich(the ones that creates job).

union employees as well as public employees both pay taxes like every one else that works for a living.i find it interesting that tea party people was for getting the goverment off the backs of the people and giving the people the freedom to run their own lives. the governor said that the goverment in wisconsin hasto have control to move people , transfer workers, lay off workers, cut wages and benefits as they see fit without interference. this is exactly what the tea partiers said they were against. so why are they coming out in support of the goverment. what a bunch of hypocrites!!!!!!

The unions are a mere shadow of their former selves. Those who whine about the unions owning the Democratic party, are deluding themselves. Only 11% of workers belong to unions any more. That is less than the percentage of blacks(12%) or latinos(14%) in the population. Unions do not have nearly the influence you think they do.

glory castle

You're talking about the people who stayed silent about the debt and deficit for eight years under a Republican before coming out of the woodwork when a Democrat was elected into office. Real conservatives were warning them for years that the economic policies under Bush where unsustainable, yet they ignore that advice, preferring to remaining lockstep with the party ideology. Now that the president isn't one of their own, they jump on the new guy as if he's the origins for all their troubles. And they have the gall to claim the mantle of conservatism.

I see alot of quotation marks and no names to go with the quotes! I'll bet most of them came from unsubstantiated sources, ie New York Times, MSNBC(Kieth Olbermann truths),Moveon.org etc. If these State employees figured out that they will lose their jobs if cuts are not made(mainly by having to pay part of their own pension payments and medical payments,they pay 0% now)they just might say that the Governor is right.

They aren't out over pay, they have made concessions. They are out over collective bargaining rights. Do catch up. That Governor is union busting for his rich buddies. Pure and simple.

As a Wisconsin teacher, I have a vested interest in what is happening in this state. Teachers have made, and are willing to make, concessions. What we are not willing to do is allow our right to collectively bargain to be stripped away from us without any say. Even the United Nations sees the right to collective bargaining as a basic human right. I am not willing to give up this right, so Gov. Walker can give more tax exemptions for his big business "friends" who helped buy him the election.

Good luck, ProudtoTeach: I don't think the "teabaggers" can quite get through their thick skulls that your fight is for all the workers in America. If Walker gets away with this, no one's job is safe.

ProudtoTeach, I come from a family of proud united mine workers coal miners in west va. all the coal miners know your pain, hang in there God is on your side. ( you can't loose )!!!!!!

ONGOING - according to the Wisconsin Dept of Workforce Development, preschool teachers make an average of $23,460, elementary school teachers make $51,240, and high school teachers make $49,400. That is not big bucks. According to those who whine about $250,000 being middle class, that would make teachers wages borderline poverty.

Heartlight3 - thanks for making the point about the middleclass being $250,000 this point has been lost. None of the teachers in WI or in any other state will ever get to the middle class. So how can they be to blame for the millions in debt in the states. It is just an excuse to break the unions and while everyone is up in arms about that no one is talking about the tax breaks to businesses with no strings attached - like creating jobs?

Oh they'll create jobs alright, just not here in the United States. Even if we lower the corporate tax and capital gains tax to zero, disband all unions and abolish the minimum wage, it'll still cheaper to hire a worker in China then here at home. No matter how much the government caves to the demands of big business, they will never be satisfied. Just like big government, big businesses are the beasts that must be starved and brought to heel, or their insidious nature will ensure the continued privatizing of profits and socializing of losses (TARP anyone?).

Conservative Republican,

You are exactly right. The work goes to the lowest bidder, always. This is called the profit motive and is the reason anyone goes into business in the first place.

I don't think that businesses are beasts that need to be starved, and I don't view their profit motive as insidious. It.s just business, nothing personal.

Why should a unit or work cost, say, .10 cents here in the U.S., and .01 cent in China or India?? Same work, same tools. We have priced ourselves right out of the competition. We are just too expensive. We are now part of a world economy, and we can't compete with the third world.

Obama's idea of new innovation, of new American inventions and so on....can you think of anything that we could come up with that can't be produced cheaper overseas?? No, of course not.

Sorry, but those jobs aren't coming back. No reason for them to come back ever. This is called reality.

The reason it costs 0.10 cents here in the U.S. compared to 0.01 cents in China, is that China doesn't have policies that protect the health and welfare of their workers. Nor do they have environmental laws to protect the Earth for future generations. We need policies that level the playing field so big business can keep the jobs here.

Those policies to level the playing field will never come about. Years ago. I remember under the Clinton presidency, the mere mention of a tariff being imposed on some specialty steel items. Not all steel products, just a few specialty items. And the reaction from the world was enormous. A trade war was threatened by England and Japan. Wow, can you imagine if we started to charge a tariff on all imported goods that are cheaper than their American counterparts?? The tariffs would nullify any labor cost advantage enjoyed by outsourcing overseas. They would also bring in plenty of revenue to our federal coffers. But the whole world would be in revolt. Economic turmoil.

We are the market for the world. We consume more than anyone else. They have to sell their goods here or they starve. (and that may be the catch in the long run)

What happens when we finally sink down to survival mode and cant even buy the cheap foreign goods?? Who works then??

Right on june , fl. i believe you hit the nail right on the head. the sad part with all this , is that all these fox news zombies is that they are being taken down the primrose path by the gop and they don't even realize it. (so sad)!!!

Glory castle and June

The zombies are taking all of us down the path. We need to let them know that we are blaming them now, not after it is too late to save our middle class from third world status. The Tea Party people who were bussed in by the Koch brothers should be ashamed of themselves.

Nice rant but I do have a problem with one of your statements. "Congress just gave Our Tax Dollars to the Rich a $1 Trillion Dollar Tax Cut, Prior we Bailed Out Wallstreet and all the Banks come Corporations were even Bailed Out for Trillions of dollars" First of all is not your tax dollars, it's not Congresses tax dollars. It's money that belongs to the peole that earned it. Now you may have a problem with rich people in general or how they got that way but it is their money. Do you look at your paycheck and say wow, I'm so lucky that I get to keep this much. Or do you say wow, that's a lot deductions.

CLKinATL

How do you think the money that was used got there? You arrogant jerk. The corporations did not get wealthy without the help of the workers and the public who buy their products. Don't give me that crap about the wealthy deserve to have huge tax breaks, no matter who paid in. The dispairty if wealth did not come about by accident, it was co-ordinated by those who look out for them and take money from them in pay back. Corporations have been corrupt in their business practices in many cases and are getting allot of tax breaks now and they will take more and more of what is not theirs if they can. It is their nature to make profit, remember? It is not always their nature to do it fairly and while looking out for the working class. You can feed people crap, if you choose, but just don't try and call it apple butter. We are not going for it anymore.

The sad part is that some people are so uneducated that they believe that you can't become wealthy without somehow feeding off the souls of children or doing dirty deals with politicians. Amazingly enough, people are generally rewarded in accordance with their talents and you may just invent something, start an efficient business, or take other actions that anyone in the country could have taken, and find yourself wealthy. Then you'll get to see the jackals line up and talk about how much of that wealth that YOU EARNED that you "deserve" to give back so that some lady down the street can pop out 9 kids without a dad and not have to work.

The people that actually drive this economy -- the ones that actually produce products and services, rather than the administrators in government or the safety net riders -- we're sick of carrying the dead weight and funding ridiculous union benefits that are way, WAY out of line with what the labor marketplace offers. Unfortunately for the unions, most of America feels this way, and they'll either succumb to action like Wisconsin's or they'll watch as companies like Boeing and the car manufacturers slowly flee their states (and the USA if they have to) to escape ridiculous, business-destroying union practices.

Well Vortex, everyone can't be a genius like you. Most of us are just working stiffs who work for a company and give our all and do our best. I guess we are just dumb asses and should go start our own companies so we can look down the inferior people we hire. Why they are ignorant lazy bums afterall. Well I can't say that now becasue I am still one of them but you have given me something to work towards.

"...public workers (teachers, firefighters, nurses, policeman) stay in their jobs longer than those in the private sector and thus accrue better wages and benefits just as a matter of longevity."

That is true. In fact, the longevity, stagnation and level of effort is such that many public employees are deceased on the job for years before anyone notices; this is especially true at the Department of Motor vehicles customer service line.

"There should not be one and I mean not one government employee that is a republican anymore"

Totally agree. The Democratic Party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the parasitic public sector; bought and paid for by the unions. Democrats do your bidding, and consider the private sector solely as a cow to be milked.

Conversely, there really should not be one private sector taxpayer that is a Democrat, unless they enjoy being fleeced by the public sector parasites, and then lectured about 'greed'.

Most people do not want to do government jobs!! They use too, use too, laugh at the people that did. Now that the freemarket is kicking their azz they want to be mad at people that took jobs that ensured security instead of money? Really, this all sounds like envy to me. Sorry you private sector job did not work out for you but the government job did for them. Maybe you should have voted democrat instead against your own interest!

Also how do the same complainer's like medicare and ssi? Really!! Government bad when it comes to being involved in everything. Government good in telling a women what to do with her body? Morons!!