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Subscribe to RSSWith tens of thousands of public sector workers jamming the halls of the Wisconsin statehouse – and similar labor battles brewing in Ohio and Michigan – Republican governors and Americans around the country are contemplating the state of the unions.
The fracas in Madison has emphasized the divide between those who view unions favorably and those who don’t – a gulf that has also deepened as union membership has declined.
Per a new survey from the Pew Center for People and the Press, Americans’ positive perceptions of unions are languishing at the lowest levels in the last quarter century. Just 45 percent express positive views about labor unions, and only a quarter say that they help American companies to compete globally.
Another poll conducted by the Clarus Research Group found even deeper opposition to the unionization of government employees specifically, with 64 percent of registered voters saying that government workers should not be able to join unions that bargain for higher pay and benefits.
Both surveys found sharp differences along party lines, with Republicans much more likely to have an unfavorable view of unions than Democrats.
But, Pew notes, the public's opinion of labor organizations is similar to its wariness of big business. Public approval of corporations has plummeted even more sharply than that of unions in the past decade. According to the poll, 47 percent of Americans say they view corporations positively, down from about 70 percent in the late 1990s.
And, despite the data showing lower national esteem overall for unions, Americans still say that they’re generally inclined to side with labor groups in disputes with state or local governments.
Asked whose side they would generally favor in a conflict between unions and state or local governments, 44 percent of respondents told Pew that they would support the labor group while 38 percent picked the government.
According to the Bureau of Labor statistics, union membership has declined from 20 percent of all wage and salary workers in 1983 – the first year that the bureau collected comparable statistics – to just under 12 percent today.
Public sector workers are much more likely to belong to a union than those who work in private industry. Over 42 percent of local government employees – many of them teachers, firefighters, and police officers – say they are members of a union, while under seven percent of private sector workers are members of a labor organization.
Union membership is highest among African Americans and workers 55-64 years old. Less than 5 percent of workers under 24 are members of a union.
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Private retirement - 100% from your own pay.
Government union pension - 100% from taxes. 0 copay.
Yep, seems totally fair and a winning argument for them unions.
agree spanky.
Unions had a purpose at one time, but much like politicans they got greedy and power hungry.
they will hurt you, kill you if you speak out against the unions, and if you dont believe me see Jimmy Hoffa.
money is the root of all evil, and unions are full of both!
Spanky, you are incorrect. I teach, and I have money taken out of my pay check every two weeks and put towards my retirement fund. I also worked in the private sector for many years and never had an employer that didn't contribute to my 401K.
Either you are not in Wisconsin or Jansing & Co got it wrong. They had a pretty little graph and a chart and everything. Employer contributions are great, but not nearly as cush as a pension.
But regardless, 100% of the pay you recieve is from tax dollars. Big difference, right?
I was a union employee for the Commonwealth of PA. I contributed 7% of my pay off the top, each and every payday towards my retirement. I also contributed towards the cost of health insurance. BTW, I had a "manager" who showed up for work somewhere around 11:00 A.M., left for lunch at 12:00 and returned after her nap at 3:30. She was nonunion, of course.
Republicans just seem to live in an evidence free zone. Here are the numbers (empirical and indisputable) for for my misinformed and blissfully ignorant Right leaning friends. Wisconsin by its own accounting projected a BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012 of 121.4 million dollars. Let me repeat that - a BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012 of nearly one hundred and twenty four million dollars! One more time - a BUDGET SURPLUS of 121.4 million. However, the very first order of business by our good Republican Governor was to piss away nearly one 140 million dollars in tax breaks for corporations and multinationals (many based out of state)! DO THE MATH!
To the extent that there is an imbalance governor Walker is claiming there is a $137 million deficit - it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker's new spending schemes or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues THE CRISIS WOULD NOT EXIST! Further, the only Unions exempted by his draconian measures are not surprisingly the police, fireman and state troopers unions of his state - why you ask - they were the only unions that donated to his election champaign! Further, the average salary and benefit level accrued by Wisconsin state employees is nearly 4% LOWER then their private counterparts. This is simply about going after state and federal employee unions nation wide because they are the number one contributor in both campaign dollars and man power for the Democratic Party. This is about destroying the American right of collective bargaining so in the end the only entities that can benefit from Citizens United are corporation many of which are foreign owned. So when FOX News vomits up a figure of 37 billion dollars for the budget surplus in Wisconsin - they are pulling it out of their a-s-s! And for those of you who characterize snow plow drivers, teachers, cops, sanitation workers etc. as thugs, Communists, Socialists and even as lazy pigs - you are callous, ignorant, mean spirited, nasty un-American fools who wouldn't know a FOX free fact if it it hit you in the face!
I keep hearing that "unions had a purpose at one time." What has changed? Please explain to me how an employer will no longer exploit their employees? Nothing has changed, this is the way it always has and always will be.
And I'm not even in a union.
Please be more specific and factual in your claims. Your numbers are all ideological not factual, and your premise is incorrect. You do not know what agreements were made, you do not know what promises were broken, and you certainly do not know the amounts that are taken from government related employees to fund a portion of their retirement plan. You also have never worked for the wages teachers make with the promise that to make up for the low wages they would have a retirement.
I used to believe unions had served their purpose and were a negative for the country. After the last three years I have come 180 degrees, and take heed of the fact that without unions we would be working 6 days a week, 16 hours a day, at a dollar an hour, no vacations, no sick leave, no work rights at all.
If you don't see that coming back within the influence Corporations now have in Washington, please take a second look.
Well, at least we know how 'Spanky' got his screen name. Let me guess. Sit at a desk all day? Produce nothing? Spend a lot of time on the Internet at work?
Guess who makes your buildings, puts out your fires, maintains your infrastructure, and educates your children? Yep, union members.
But none of that is important as long as your computer in your little cubicle keeps working, right Spanky?
Tank...time to post something new, man.
The Republicans in Wisconsin are doing their work as advertised. They ran their campaigns on doing things like this...and won.
The Republicans are listening...to the taxpayers, not the union workers. The Democrats are listening to the union workers, not the taxpayers. If public employees are funded by taxpayers, that makes the taxpayers technically their boss. And the taxpayer just got fed up with their sky-high property tax bills with no end in sight to fund the union demands. Even Jerry Brown in California acknowledges that public workers and their pensions and benefits are drowning the state. Ironically, Brown is about to attack a beast he helped create in his first go-around as governor in the 70s.
I don't know where you get this No Union co-pay. Our township employees and teachers pay 7.5% of our salary... so speak of what you know.... not what Fox/Journal/Murdoch tells you to say.. and we pay $70 per paycheck for family medical care.... (biweekly)....
!00% of government contractors, consultants and vendors pay comes from taxes as well but nobody seems to want to curtail their bonuses, retirement, stock options or profit! Why is that? Something I have never understood from the idiots and kool-aid drinkers, that a private business that rapes the taxpayers is perfectly reasonable but a governement employee who sacrifices, yes, you heard me, SACRIFICES high income potential in order to serve the public interest is nothing but a dirtbag greedy bottom feeder. Amazing!....
Most government employees are college educated and professionally licensed individuals who have elected to serve YOU, the taxpayer and private citizens of this country. They are now under attack by those who will start in the public sector and then spread those same "ideals" to the private sector. Anyone who doesn't believe that deserves what is sure to be coming.....
Tank:
What is the source of your data? I'd like to read it.
Thanks.
Unions have a purpose, to protect their members against the nature of the universe (i.e. against God).
Unions have one purpose, to become so powerful as to be able to destroy their enemy (the employer).
Public employees who are union members have one significant enemy: THEIR NEIGHBORS! They hate their neighbors and desire to blackmail them to give them more money up until they are sated. If not, they threaten to destroy their neighbors lives, their neighbors children, their neighbors freedoms!
Well done state employee union members, you have the power. Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! It's all about you!
g momma,
Sorry you were raised in public schools. The message was clear. Unions have one weapon, to punish and shut down an employeer and to defeat the forces of nature in the form of natural competition. The strong survive, the weak don't. Why do you think so many jobs have been lost overseas? Because the identical thing can be done over their cheaper!!! That means the employees that think they're worth more, aren't and never were! Their desire to remain in a utopian universe is unsustainable and they suffer awfully as a result. Unfortunately, they're dragging the rest of the country down with them. The rest being those that are willing to compete against market forces (i.e. nature)!
Public employee unions are unique in one way. They desire to force the taxpayers to give them more. The taxpayers are their neighbors, so public employee members have created a universe where it's them against us! us being the people paying for them! And they're too uneducated and insecure to realize that what they're doing is morally wrong. If you can't stand up for your own worth, then you can't stand up at all!
RDecker, maybe you should look into the process of how the scumbag contractors and suppliers get their contracts with the goverment. I work for one of these "scumbag contractors" bidding this work and we have to bid public work with so little profit margin that we barely can keep the doors open. And thats if everything goes right, if something goes wrong or if we bid it wrong we could potentially put the company out of business, because there is no pleading for more money, what we bid is what we get unless something justifies a change order. I don't know how it can get any more fair for the government.
Beyond the hysteria that folks like rrobeson insist upon or the past prejudices exampled by those such as Spanky, who ya gonna trust more? Government, corporations, or unions? Unions have helped me and two generations of blue-collar workers before me help ourselves out of mind-numbing poverty and into productive careers. Unless you've served in a union, you should keep your ignorant opinions to yourself. The "organized crime" aspect is no worse than the corruption you tolerate in DC by constantly voting for one of two parties. Where doesn't the hypocrisy infiltrate?
Transorbital, Rob Simpson, Doc Strange, and others: head of the class for you guys! :)
Unions are a Necessary Evil. If you didn't have them, corporations would abuse its workers to make more profits for the board and major shareholders.... With that said, Unions heads have now gotten fat on the gravy train. They don't care about the union members and their issues. They want their DUES. Does it make sense to see joe the plumber paying $200 copay into medical and $100 into his retirement monthly, while the Union workers pays 0 and 0? Come on and smell the coffee. NEGOTIATE and make yourselves look better. We are tired of seeing the Unions as "Do it our way or else!" Good luck to both sides, but there will be no winner I am afraid.
Rob Simpson, please go down to your state capital and read "ALL" the employer laws in place. Unions are destroying our ability to compete in todays world, I do not have to explain or tell you much more just listen to anyone answering a customer service call? India? How about paper or clothing? China? At some point unions have to decide if making less money keeps corporations here. I own my own company how about you? Go ahead and hire some union guys and see how productive and profitable you are, you will head straight to that same state capital and research BANKRUPTCY LAW!
What - are you Glenn Beck? Fear mongering in CAPS - scream louder and we might have to believe.
Look, the word is Union. It means a collection, a group - in this case a collection of workers that are able to negotiate for their benefit. Like your weekends, thank your Union members.
The alternative, one that we are rapidly approaching in this society of have and have nots, will be a nice gathering in the city square. For a couple of weeks. That should ring a bell for you Bucky - I think even FOX showed the free video.
I see there are a lot of misinformed people posting here. If you don't want to look ridiculous, you sure fooled me. Opened your mouths and removed all doubt. Wisconsin public workers do indeed contribute. The state matches what they put in. Also, if it weren't for the work of unions, you wouldn't have your cushy 9-5 M-F jobs, or OSHA regulations, safety protocols, and above-minimum wage. Now you want to throw them under the bus. You'll be next. Then, do you think those public employees will stand up for you? Hell to the no.
@ Transorbital
Excellent comment! Well said!
androloma,
The only hysteria is you thinking the government is different from us. You trust those that feed you more. Fair enough. That is a law of nature. But you're feeding from a fixed pie and the more you eat, the less somebody else eats. And the taxpayers are eating less compared to union members now and they don't like being forced to pay for the union members in that way. Your happy with the union that feeds you. Ok, but be warned, the union doesn't create anything. It isn't anything. It's just a threat against us, and we're not buying it anymore!
Most government employees may be college educated...........Scott Walker, the governor of Wisconsin, is not a college graduate. He dropped out of college with about a C average. Just wanted to point that out. Not saying it's good or bad.
It scares me when any governement official is in a rush to push a bill through that hasn't even had time to cool. And, after announcing that he wants it passed in a week, has the National Guard on stand-by if needed??? Sounds like paranoia...and, that maybe he knows he's not following an ethical course or approaching it with integrity. My representative has not talked to me or my neighbors or my community to get out view point-to represent me. There hasn't even been time to go through the bill and take a good look at it.
I would say this regardless of the party. Many politicians seem to think for themselves and lean towards things that will better themselves as opposed to the people they represent. Sad and out of control.
I worked as a public sector employee and got all of those great benefits. Then I found out that I could make almost three times as much at GE. I also paid for Health Insurance and Retirement at my cushy public job and didn't have enough money left over to pay child support and eat. Maybe there are a few cushy public sector jobs out there but I sure didn't have one or see anyone that did.
Just because we pay for teacher, firefighters and police with taxpayer money doesn't mean they didn't earn it. What upsets me is this jerk off Governor is leaving the police out of it so he can call them in to beat up the protesters if he needs them. They need to impeach this idiot!
Lisa, you're a financial idiot. Matching funds! Really! Hmm, read this real slowly then read it again or have somebody read it to you. Your salary is paid by taxes (all of it). Those taxes are paid by your neighbors, and yourself! You put some of it back to your pension. The state also pays for some of your pension. That really only adds to your salary. It does this through 'taxes', paid by your neighbor. Your salary is determined not by the market, but by union contract, so outsourcing is an option to those people who want to save money. Those people who want to pay less taxes are your neighbors (and yourself), the taxpayers. Do you really think the state produces profit which is owed to you? Do you think if you contribute part of your taxpayer paid salary to your pension that your actually 'contributing'?
That's the problem with unions. They were designed to extract unnecessary profits from greedy owners of corporations. Unfortunately, the only owner of the state is the taxpayer. You're extracting solely from them (and yourself).
The government serves best that serves least (Thomas Paine).
If the work you do is worthwhile to others, you don't need a collective to defend it. If it's not, then you morally shouldn't defend it! Remember the tenth commandment: Thou shalt not covet...
The sole purpose of unions is revenge by way of coveting.
Spanky you are incorrect about pensions. For instance, in Texas we contribute 6% of our income each paycheck to the pension fund. The state contributes 6% by law. Those funds are invested by the fund. Pension funds have huge portfolios of stocks and bonds. They try to make 8% each year on the investments for the portfolios. States have gotten trouble because:
1) many government entities (state and local) stopped making their part of the contributions when the market was doing well. The funds were making enough money without the government contributions.
2) when the market crashed those portfolios lost a lot of value - which is why they are short now. By 'short' I mean at current estimates they 'may' not have sufficient funds to meet their obligations. Of course, if their investments grow enough this won't be a problem.
3) because of these funds taxpayer monies are not used to pay the benefits. Taxpayer money is only used when matching funds are provided but as I pointed out - for years many government entities did not even contribute what they were supposed to (in spite of laws).
There was a time not too long ago that most companies had the same structure as the government funds. The Federal government created 401Ks for people who were not covered by a defined contribution pension. If you were covered you were not eligible for a 401K. When I started working for the state I was not eligible.
Then companies found that they could save money by not providing pensions and more and different vehicles were developed around the 401K idea.
It is obvious from your posts that you know nothing about how pension funds work and that you are jealous because you don't have one.
I'll ditto that, Androloma! As a union, card carrying retiree from the Northwest, I support ALL public employees at all levels of government.
Strength, courage, and power to the People....my wish is that you prevail in this great fight in Wisconsin and in every state in the union for that matter.
As far as I am concerned, the WI Governor is the employer of all public employees---i.e. the Teachers---and is wreaking havoc upon them! How can their union not be there to protect them?
bigD
My wife's employer puts in 1 dollar for every 2 my wife pays to her 401k, and she pays 50 percent of her medical. My employer puts in ZERO in my 401k and pays 80 percent of my medical. Bet neither of these come close to your benefits, and we work 12 months a year, have to attend night classes at our expense to keep up with our industries, and I have CEC's I have to obtain to continue my license.
You work 8 to 9 months a year, get summer's to vacation, attend classes, etc. and our students are learning so much we rank towards the bottom in the world in math and science. Oh that's right, we only teach test taking and diversity now.....
@ spanky...the pay comes from taxes, because public workers are doing the peoples work, where else would it come from? As far as your pretty little charts, they are mistaken, I pay every paycheck for retirement, medical etc. So you are just advancing the intentionally ignorant position of the Republican party which is trying to break unions, not because of money, but because this is their mantra for the 2012 election, a way to limit the organizational strength of the working class!
There's a reason why we're heading towards another Gilded Age full of plutocrats, and a growing gap between the workers and the corporations. The GOP has done a number on normal Americans, convincing them that union-members, not Wall Street, are the one's to fear and hate. Of course, Wall Street swindles hundreds and hundreds of billions from taxpayers each year, and the GOP is focused on teachers and others who make around 40k a year with decent to just okay benefits. Go figure.
I don't see how this is not big government telling what they can and can't do. That's the crux of the issue isn't it? Why in the world is it okay for the government to tell a group of people they can't work together to get better pay? This seems like the most un-republican, and downright Un-American thing ever.
It's simple freemarket economics. If they could replace the teachers easily then a union wouldn't matter. The government could go out and hire a 1000 new teachers tomorrow...The problem is this is skilled labor... and you can't just grab any Tom, Dick, or Harry off the street to teach a kid calculus (or anything else for that matter), well not effectively.
Another problem I see is most people against teacher's unions seem to believe that teachers are way overpaid. Based on the average education acquired per career, teachers are no where near the top of wage earners. Now I know someone is bouncing in their chair right now screaming they only work 9 months a year! Guess what, the average I just listed was based on an hourly wage so the 9 month a year argument doesn't hold water. Newsflash teachers are paid only for the work they do during the 9 months they choose whether or not to receive paychecks over the summer or not by dividing their salaries by 9 or 12. Simple test, how many teachers you know are living in huge houses and driving luxury cars?
Another argument I've been seeing is they're all lazy and overpaid. Well let's see if it were easy work, more people would be doing it wouldn't they? Especially, given the arguments of the anti union movement that they are overpaid for too little work, we should see a rash of new teachers bounding out of college for the "gravy train" life of the Union Teacher. Fact: Only 60 percent of those trained to be teachers move directly into teaching jobs, and of those who do, only 50 to 60 percent will still be teaching five years after entering the profession. Translated: due to low salaries people get private sector jobs instead, and the job is so hard after five years a large percentage quit.
I don't see how it's okay that the government tell people what they can and can't do.. This doesn't seem like a democrat or republican argument to me, its about American and Un-American. It is Un-American for a state government to BAN a group of people from joining or creating a union when other American's have that right. It is Un-American for a governor to send police after members of congress who are peacefully protesting. But what do I know... it seems I am the only sensible republican left.
I am a union government worker, and I pay for my retirement. I think it's funny when someone says something totally baseless, like that we dont' pay into our retirement, and that it's 100% tax based. It's even funnier when other people believe it because they want to, but haven't done any research. Those might be the dumbest Americans out there - the ones who don't know how to think for themselves. Organized labor is about the only thing keeping corporate America from winning their class war they've waged upon us, and turing this into third-world Argentina, circa 1982.
I keep hearing that "unions had a purpose at one time." What has changed?
I will answer this question, when unions were created it was to defend against big business, today there are so many laws to protect the workers that did not exist in the early 1900's. For example, FMLA, ADA, FLSA, workers comp, civil rights act, EEOC, DOL to name a few. Unions are not needed to protect the worker because the law protects the worker. If you are wronged you can file a claim with the EEOC or Dept of Labor, or file an individual lawsuit.
Just like social security, the free ride will eventually end as not enough money goes into the pot as is taken out. That is the same for benefits and pensions.
Doc Strange - "I keep hearing that "unions had a purpose at one time." What has changed? Please explain to me how an employer will no longer exploit their employees? Nothing has changed, this is the way it always has and always will be."
What has changed is the Unions dont protect all employees anymore. They protect the poor workers, that are only there because they cant be fired due to the unions. They protect based on tenure vs who is a good worker. The good workers do not need the protection of the union. If they are good workers, they will be in demand. They will get paid & treated well because the company will not want the lose of the quality worker. If the company doesn't care/doesn't treat that employee right- the good employee will be able to go find work elsewhere.
Yes, there will always be employer's that will take advantage of the worker. Just as there are good, hard working union workers and lazy workers, and good cops & bad cops etc. There will always be the exception - but in todays age - the employee can negotiate by letting his work speak for him, instead of being lumpped in with the poor worker who leeches off the company because of the protection of the union.
Based upon basic laws of protection ADA etc - good workers dont need the unions. They would get to keep those dues, that are basically being stolen from the worker. Unions are no longer about worker's rights. They are about being political machines. They are nothing more than lobbiests with forced dues.
Interestingly, Spanky, that's not my situation as a public employee.
Right now 8.9% of my paycheck goes toward my retirement plan (our Legislature wants to raise that, by the way).
On average, private employees in my line of work earn 15-20% more than I do (with an advanced degree).
So please don't tell people this yarn about overpaid employees with free retirement plans, because it is patently false!
Oh, and BoBo, the name fits.
EddieP says: "If you are wronged you can file a claim with the EEOC or Dept of Labor, or file an individual lawsuit."
Ever tried to file a claim like that? Ever tried to generate the legal funds to defend yourself against corporate lawyers, while making barely enough to pay the rent? Ever tried to survive on workman's comp in the last 20 years? Nope, you haven't. And, that's apparent.
"Strength, courage, and power to the People....my wish is that you prevail in this great fight in Wisconsin" sounds awfully similar to "Strength, courage, and power to the People....my wish is that you prevail in this revolution in the People's Republic of China/ Democratic People's Republic of Korea"
This is just sad...it's simple: Union = Socialism & Communism. And we Americans don't want either. For those who are so in love with unions, I suggest you go and immigrate to China & North Korea, I'm sure they'll show you the "real love".
Hey, T-Penn:
I'm a combat veteran; two tours. I was an infantryman in the US Army. I'm also a government union worker. You don't speak for me. Get out of my country, and get off my coattails. I hope I get to see you on the sidewalk someday so I can spit in your ungrateful, undeserving face. Seriously. Get out of here. You don't deserve to live in this country. Having fought for it, I know.
And there youhave it according to an bonifide government union worker.
If you disagree with him you need to "get out of the country." And let not forget - you get a spit in the face, to boot.
Really? Is that how it works Mr. foxhole?
You think you come off as a tad bit uncivil?
Yes, I am paid by the taxpayers, and every morning I go to work I am thankful for their generosity. The tax payers inturn I hope are thankful for me. Not only am I educating and keeping their children safe during the day, but I am maintaining the high value of their property as well. My district (which is in Ohio) is rated Excellent with Distinction. Which is the highest rating a school can get. It makes our community a desirable place to live, especially for young families. It's a symbiotic relationship. Their taxes pay for their school, their school serves the community. Sorry for any spelling errors, I don't like typing on my phone.
Gee, Spanky. I'm feeling a little left out here. Care to rebut my comment?
Bobo,
How can we judge a teacher? Or a cop? Or a firefighter? If there are less fires in a year they make more? Their response time? Its not possible. A teacher in NJ (one of the most liberal states in America) gets paid less than 1/2 of their counterparts in the private sector. I know this because I'm and accountant and my wife is a teacher. She makes less than 1/2 of what I do 6 years into our careers. Even if you extrapolated her salary for 12 months (which isn't possible since getting a job at that rate for 3 months is impossible) she still makes less than 1/2 of what I make. And she pays 1.5% of her benefits and about 7% towards her pension. The teachers contribution to the pension btw is paid in full. ITs only the state side that is not.
And to RRobeson, you fail to realize that a teacher/firefighter/policeman takes ownership of their salaries based upon the work they do. SO your analogy that they are paid in taxpayer funds which is part then paid into a pension fund is still taxpayer funds is wrong. They are paid with taxpayer funds but their salary becomes theirs once they perform their services to the state. I'd think you'd be able to follow that but if not please repost your nonsense and I'll try again.
union-busting republicans, what else is new.....union workers are willing to pay increased medical and retirement increases. but you can't outlaw collective bargaining in the state.....what happens if santa fe railroad transfers me to wisconsin, will i lose my right to bargain because i work in that horrible state??...republicans, WHERES THE JOBS??
Too add onto the previous post listing government departments, there are also laws in place to protect the employee from exploitation. Overtime laws, child labor laws, minimum wage, OSHA makes sure the work environment is safe, social security is in place, workers compensation, state department of labor, unemployment benefits, employment practices laws regarding terminations, hiring, etc, etc.
As to foxhole complaining about not being able to afford a lawyer to file a lawsuit.....BS! All you have to do is call the department of labor and file a complaint. Or could it be possible you were fired for cause and didn't have any basis to sue?
Unions have a strong tendency to join in "sympathy" strikes when another union goes on strike. Don't think for one minute that the problem brewing in Wisconsin will only involve state gov't workers and teachers. Many other unions will join especially if it is perceived as an opening round attack against all forms of unionization, which it appears to be. Then Wisconsin will grind to a halt.
But they'll always have plenty of CHEESE!!
Not sure everyone is talking the same language here. A 401K plan is not a retirement plan. It is funds to be used when you get to retirement age. Retirement plans are normally funded only by employers, private or public. My understanding, which is limited is that public retirements plans are based on years of service and salary for the last X years at least here in NY. That is how SOME public employees PAD their retirement plans. They save up overtime / vacation days to be paid out in the end thus increasing their retirement payout. It's a touchy subject so just my two cents worth - actually only worth a penny but what the heck....
@rrobeson
That's the best thing I've heard all day! So, unions will destroy their employers, right? And when that's done, the employees won't be able to pay the union dues OR have a job OR need for the union. Once the union 'destroys' the employer, there's no need for a union because there's no job.
GENIUS!
I said earlier that I had a cushy public sector job that I couldn't afford to keep. I paid for Health Insurance and contributed to my pension. General Electric offered me almost three times as much to work for them. I had to take it because I couldn't make ends meet paying Child Support and trying to eat.
What I didn't tell you is that General Electric damn near killed me. That non union job was exempt from overtime so I ended up working 65 to 75 hours a week. I was also on call seven days a week, 24 hours a day, 344 days a year. I am being fair here because I did get three weeks of vacation. I was almost always called up in the middle of the night since I was supporting Servers all over the world.
After I worked at General Electric for a couple of years they started outsourcing jobs to India and things got even worse. I was a slave for the company in every sense except that I could quit. It took 3 offshore workers to get what one person could do in the United States, the quality of our software went down. Our support suffered because of language barriers and not to offend anyone but when these workers came from overseas to the US to work they stunk up the place. It wasn't the fault of the workers but they only showered once a week and they used cheap cologne and had that curry smell. There were several times during the end of the week when I got on the elevator I would be gagging from the smell.
We needed a Union but didn't have one and then to even make it worse they started laying Americans off and bringing in people from India. They even made the people getting laid off train the person that was taking their job. General Electric and other multinational corporations started abusing H1B Visas and broke the law in doing so. They didn't get in trouble they just paid off some politician.
Most Corporations are abusing their workers today and getting away with it. The middle class needs to stand up for themselves. No one is going to give us anything unless we fight for it. When I pay taxes and my friend next door who is a firefighter gets paid its his money, he earned it risking his life. When my sister who is a teacher gets paid she earned it and she works her tail off and really cares about your kids while you are off at work. Could you imagine what you would pay in daycare if the teachers were not there.
Wake up people Republicans are on the side of corporations and the rich, they have always been, they hook you in with their BS family values right after they send a sexual page to one of their workers. We do need to rebel or we won't have any rights left either, we will be slaves of Corporations, hell we already are.
Kevin Q. There is a difference between public and private unions. When public service unions negotiate a new contract, they are sitting on both sides of the table. They donate to candidates to get them elected and then those elected officials are the ones deciding on contract provisions. It was FDR who said that public service workers should not be unionized.
goliph: "It was FDR who said that public service workers should not be unionized." I believe JFK said basically the same thing - it's an inherent conflict of interest. The negotiators on the other side of the table don't have their own skin in the game....they're simply playing with Other People's Money (i.e. the Taxpayers' money), not their own. They're not particularly motivated to push back union demands. So of course, over time, the unions will get more and more of what they want....until the money runs out.
Union's can serve a purpose good for both individual members and their communities... but most often they don't. Consider, for example, teacher's unions. The have initiated an intense bureaucracy that makes it almost impossible to fire a teacher for any offense at all-- including negligence and sexual misconduct. As a result, there are hundreds of teachers that are paid to sit in an off-campus room for 8 hours a day doing whatever the hell they damn well please (crossword puzzles, surfing the net, reading) all on the tax-payers' dime while their lengthy (and I mean lengthy) firing process is carried out.
Don't believe me? Check out 20/20's special report:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw
The point Spanky is trying to make here, and it is a valid one, is that every dime a federal, state or local employee makes, either now or in perpetuity, comes from the taxpayer dime. Whether a state employee chooses to get all their money now or defer it till later in hopes of a greater more stable future, it is all done with "public" money.
Every government employee earns its living from the sweat and effort of non government employees. That may not be a very popular viewpoint, but it is true, nonetheless.
In my opinion, the more private employees we have, the better.
Unions have had a history of strangling their employers to death, then wondering where did all the jobs go? Hmmm...
Look at the slow, painful death of the US steel industry, once an employer of hundreds of thousands. Unions will blame it on the greedy CEOs (or politicians), usually anyone but themselves - that's standard union propaganda. But the reality is that the U.S. is no longer an "island" in the global economy (as it arguably was during the 20-30 years following WWII), and US labor must compete against labor the world over. And, as long as there are people on this planet willing to work for $2/day, production will always go to them. Why? You may blame it on the CEO who moved production overseas, but he or she shouldn't be the ultimate target of your blame. The ultimate target should be yourselves, as consumers. You pride yourselves in shopping around for the most cost-effective products, getting good deals, in so doing preserving just that much more of your hard-earned money for other necessities. Keeping materials costs down is one of the ways those products stay affordable to you, and purchasing managers will shop around to keep those costs down. (If they don't, you'll buy from their competitor who does.) If they can't get favorable pricing on American-made products, they'll go overseas for them. Obviously, China has been more than willing to compete in recent years.
So you can spew your obsolete union propaganda all day long, but until you can figure out a way to force consumers, yourself included, to buy overpriced goods against their will, you've got nothing. The old adage, "follow the money," is particularly applicable - because if you really follow it full circle, you'll trace right back into your and your neighbor's wallets.
Unions protect jobs of people that will not work
They are all lazy
I would like to invite you to join me on a day in the life of a County office and meet some county workers. Over the past 10 years, as a small business owner, I have seen the great work that rank and file workers do under incredibbly stressful circumstances and overwhelming work loads, unlike the private sector. I know what they earn and it is not anywhere near what is earned in the private sector (except for those private sector owners who pay minimum and a not-living wage). They work for a public employer who pays $13.00 an hour, provides poor to fair benefits, makes employees pay for most, if not all of their benefits and work 35 hours a week because of furloughs? Pensions are agout 30-40% of their earnings starting at 60 after 30 years. They are thrilled to be working and work harder than anyone I have known, including me! Please come join me for a day or a week and meet the real workers in our country (in addition to teachers). But Jamie Diamond gets 15 million today for taking money from taxpayers WHO BAILED HIS ASS OUT.
Stinkin' policemen, firefighters and teachers. Those lazy bastards. They don't work hard. No one works hard in this country but me. All union workers are lazy even if I don't even know what their job is.
We have a 40 hour work week because our grandfathers got their heads bashed in on picket lines for us. We are not all that far from a return to serfdom which is what the greedy SOB's would like.
miket - that's the most ignorant, lame comment I've ever read.
WOW, Jason. Is being an uniformed blowhard really how you want to be preceived in life? Wait....why do I bother? I just read his post and that says it all.
miket-2942709, you are either misinformed or completely ignorant {thank me for not calling you stupid}
My union has saved the taxpayers in Ohio $250,000 over the last two years in concessions made by employees. I've not had a raise in five years, gave back $2,000 each year for the last two in furlough days yet still go to work every day. Over the last 28 years I have missed out on countless Christmases with my family, my kids sporting events and many other activities I'd have much rather have participated in to go out in the blowing snow and operate that plow so everyone else could have safe passage to do those very things. I have worked many a 16 hour day and take a great deal of pride in what I do. To think union employees are lazy has to be without a doubt one of the dumbest statements I ever heard made. You aren't a politician are you?
Wow, 40 hour work weeks? You're so overworked!
You're in the public sector because you have a steady job with a steady income with stable hours. Private employees work much more than 40 hour work weeks and thus deserve more. Let's reward hard work, creativity, and risk-taking and not complaints.
@ Brent-3019177
I was being sarcastic, but re-reading my post I realize that it's so close to conservative rhetoric it could be hard to tell.
Jdrizzle, I somewhat agree with you. If poeple work hard, they move up and keep their job, simple as that. I wouldn't want to be union and be able to out perform others to get that raise, get that better bonus, ect. As far as wages go, supply and demand is the name of the game, it just like everything else.
LOL @ 40 hour work week. My counties Govt employees, a FULL TIME WEEK is 35 hours, and they get more paid time off than any private business gets or offered. My job gives me 6 paid holidays, my county Govt workers get 13. They are closed on days that the rest of the businesses are open(like MLK day and Good Friday). My county employees are spoiled brats, onlyhave to pay $1/month single and $2/month Family for health insurance. And the kicker? A secretary starts at $35K/yr. A freiking secretary makes $35K. And I am supposed to feel sorry for them when they have to be fired or asked to cut back? I don't think so. Thats a fine union example right there, high pay great benefits, but ask them to pay more than $2 for insurance and I am the bad guy
Jason, thanks for the clarification.
Miket-dickit, you are a moron. I worked 43 yrs for the same co. and I can tell you I never had one bad piece of paper on my record, other than one I never saw and was removed. I saw kiss a**es recieve promotions while I was redoing their work. If it wern't for unions every suck a** would be gone because there would NOT be anyone to cover their butt. I paid my dues and am happy to have a a pension! Stay at burger king and see how far you get in retirement!!
Where'd they get those T-shirts from? Seems like those were made up awfully fast.
I saw a video earlier today of 2 of the Senators-in-Hiding....making their escape from the motel in Illinois...and they were driving a Toyota....isn't that a foreign car ??....so much for the union brutha and sista solidarity krap....I bet if you check the teacher parking lots....you'll find a lot of cars NOT made by the UAW.....same as the parking lots of Union Workers at GM and Chrysler and even Ford....
union bricklayer for 40 years. litterally worked my fingers to the bone. the only time off we get is when it rains, snows, or is too cold for the mortar. or a bad economy. oh, and we don't get paid for that time off. i'm not wining, just the way it is. miket, you are an ass. i'd like to meet you face to face.
So the basic premise of this article is that Americans are not to fond of their government or unions.
OK, fair enough. One PMSNBC reporter that got something right.
Bravo!
Behind every lazy worker is a lazier/inept administrator.
Come work in an Iron Ore mine with me. I'll show you hard work.
Anybody poll on whether or not voters approve of the White House fomenting this unrest? Cause, I'm pretty sure that's a loser.
Give it up with that "White House fomenting unrest" horse excrement, NoJo. What's next from you, birther rants and death panels?
Not everyone's stupid enough to buy into that kind of rhetoric. If that's the audience you're looking for, may I suggest Fox? You should be in fine company.
The latest poll in Wisconsin, the election in November, shows that the people of Wisconsin wanted change. They are getting it and the minority is whining. Scott came into office with a couple billion $ deficit and the people want it fixed. Of course those who make the most at the expense of taxpayers are whining because they don't care about the taxpayers, only themselves.
Maybe the Wisconsin government should just shut down, fire everyone, and start from scratch. No more seniority, no more whining, no more jobs forthe whiners.
According to the article, the bulk of the union members are black. Isn't that racism? I see that blacks are few and far between in the protest. Isn't that racism? The tea party protests had more blacks than the Wisconsin union protests, and they were/are called racists. Looks like the kettle calling the pot white syndrome.
Government Union Pension is not I repeat is not 100% far from that, but we have come to expect a determined denial from Republican low information and refusing to get the facts based citizens. You are entitled to your own truth but you are not entitled to your own "facts" Here's the truth
Walker’s assault on unions comes less than a month after the state’s fiscal bureau — Wisconsin’s equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office — stated that Wisconsin is not in need of austerity proposals, and that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of the tax cut policies Walker put in place during his first days in office.
In fact, Wisconsin could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus without Walker’s bill.
Conveniently, the unions that supported Walker’s campaign — the State Patrol, local police, and fire departments — would stay completely unchanged under the new bill.
Wisconsin state employee unions already made $100 million in concessions last December.
Now, Walker’s new proposal would effectively take away the right of state employees to collectively bargain for everything from vacation, sick hours, and even the hours they work.
I really wish my plate wasn’t so ‘full’ this weekend or I would hop in the car for a little ‘road trip’ to the great city of Madison to support the hard working people who are being bent over by a corrupt Governor!
Know that I am with you in solidarity! Keep up the fight! We MUST not ALLOW greed to disseminate the middle class under ANY circumstances!
That's right they are Public Employees and they should not have the right. There pay should be based on what the economy is doing and where the State is at financially and the State government should have that right not the unions. They work for the people they are not working for a private company. This has gotten out hand and Public Employees wages have gone up over private employees way too much. They are providing public service if they don't like it they should go out in the real world and work.
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL, if you really felt like supporting them you would drive up there and do it instead of making an excuse. Imagine if the american colonists decided not to rebel against the british because they had to ride their kids to soccer practice? Don't say what you intend to do if there's no intention to actually do it.
Len, WTF? Do you even know what you are talking about? You do realize that cops are public servants also? IF you think they aren't desrving, then maybe you should give up your right for them to service you against crime. Maybe you should actually read June's post again. This is all because the Gov. decided to give tax cuts to his corporate campaign donors (about $140 million worth), it has no factual link to unions or public servants at all. Sorry, don't let me confuse you with the facts.
Len's right! How dare cops and firefighters expect to make a decent wage, or have a comfortable retirement after they finish a career risking their lives to protect the rest of us? Where do they get off expecting a pension, just because the signed a contract guaranteeing them one and they've been paying into a pension fund their entire careers?
Don't they know they've been paying into pension funds so the governor can take their money and use it go give huge tax breaks to out-of-state corporations? Those are the people we should really be fighting for, big corporations! The forgotten heroes!
The fact is, there was no budget crisis. Wisconsin was one of the rare states running a surplus. Then the Republican governor - not the big, bad unions - demolished the state's revenue by giving huge tax breaks to corporations and the super-rich. Now they're blaming it on the unions. When will people learn that Republicans don't care about anyone who doesn't have a billion dollars in their bank account? Everyone else is either sap to be separated from their money, or a scapegoat to be blamed for their own endless greed. The union workers in Wisconsin have the misfortune to be both - the Republican governor is stealing their pensions and then trying to make them into the bad guys.
You're right - any ideas on how I can tell my family members I won't be able to attend a funeral and accomodate out of town guests?
I'm open for suggestions...
Do you think that you pay should be based on how the ecomony is doing or on how you do your job?
Geez, you would think from reading the above comments that only red diaper-doper babies are qualified to tell us lowly private industry workers what it is like to work sooo hard, and that only they really qualify for a lifetime of benefits. Well here is some reality, when the bill passes in Wisconsin, other states will follow, or they will become insolvent and then the Federal Government will have to print more worthless money to bail them out. Unfortunately, for many states it is too late; especially those with public pensions that can't be funded. And China is starting to turn their nose away from our bonds. If you can't afford something, what makes you think that you deserve to have it your way.
I think we need to clarify what a right to work law means. It doesn't mean unions cannot exist. It just gives an employee the right to join a union or not. Its all about choice. In a right to work state you have a choice as to whether or not you want to join. In a non right to work state you can be fired for NOT joining. That is the ONLY difference.
Junefl- thank you for having intelligence. WI is saying yes to some state workers and NO to others? What happened to "equal protection"? Or taxation w/o representation? This guy would make KimJungIl proud!
Right to work means you will work with illegal aliens and get paid what they get.
Look at you right to work states, highest welfare, and highest crimes. They have the lowest education no wonder they like right to work.
just want to say im a union construction worker i worked nonunoin for about 15 years now union for past 10 pay is double with pension and ins. i didnt have before, and now i can look foreward to retierment instead of working till i die. i used to think unoin people were lazy , dont get me wrong theres alot of them out there but the co. i work for you work your ass off or you dont work.and 9 times out of 10 in construction union is better craftmanship than non
rrobeson said, "…Taxpayers are eating less compared to union members…" Aren't government employees taxpayers too? There is no disconnecting between being a taxpayer and being a union member. Your argument is unintelligent and ill informed; theoretically, taxes are paid by all wage earners, both union and non-union, within the community to meet a mutually desired end. Certainly, you cannot believe that those employed by your government somehow getting a free ride. Furthermore, I know for a fact that for teacher collective bargaining is required by federal law under the Fair Labor Standards Act. Not all teachers must join said unions but all reap the same benefits and/or challenges of said negotiations. As integral part of the FLSA, it's illegal for teachers to strike, unlike conventional unions, their ability to do labor actions are extremely limited in scope. It's far too easy for the naïve to clump all unions into one nice and neat little package to kick around; but the honest to God truth is, the Governor of Wisconsin is biting off his nose to spite his face (doing more harm than good to his constituents)! He'll be lucky to get new teachers to come and work in his state or retain the ones he has. My wife is a teacher and if it weren't for her pension plan we'd been long gone to greener pastures at the drop of a hat.
BGwkstff: Read the provisions in the Taft -Hartley Act. The option of joining a union is there, but it doesn't mean the employer has to recognize it or even have any response to demands it may make. "Right to work" states are all union-busting, anti-labor, pro-employer, mostly Republican states. What's next, amend the Child labor laws?
The GOP were the fools that created the Davis Bacon Act to compete with the unions. Listen up folks, if the GOP gets its way, not only do the unions get screwed but so do all you nonunion rats. OMG the country run like Wal-Mart, is that what we want?
No Rats - It is up to US, who need to remain diligent in exterminating these cockroach's!
There is NO better disinfectant than sunlight!
"Wisconsin’s equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office — stated that Wisconsin is not in need of austerity proposals" June Fl, you do know the CBO only reports on the "data" it's given. There is not independant fact finding. garbage - gargae out.
I have worked union all of my life and can testify that most unions can be good for members and management. In most cases private sector unions are a good thing when they negotiate fairly and support realities in their industry. Everybody benefits. Union officials can negotiate anything they think, but management must agree and those agreements must be ratified by the rank and file membership of the union before a contract takes effect. The problem with government unions is that taxpayers have no seat at the table. Taxpayers, who pay the bill have no say in the compensation packages negociated by public sector unions with politicians at the top of the taxpayer supported food chain. That's why compensation for public jobs has exploded in the last 25 years to twice the pay for comparable jobs in the private sector. Nobody should be denied the right to collectivly bargain for the terms of their employment with their employer, but the cost of compensation for government employees should be subject to voter/ taxpayer approval. That's the arguement. There's a problem when everybody negociating government pay is a government employee. Government employees compensation is 100% tax money. They pay no taxes. All taxes come from the private sector without which there would be no government.
I just have a simple question for all you pro-union posters on here.
Let's assume that you all were to see your ideal realized....everyone belongs to a union, no one works more than 30 hours a week, everyone can retire at 59 (or 49) and receive a healthy chunk of their salary, and full medical benefits, for the remainder of their lives.
Where does the money come from?
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
Easy! Just tell your relatives that you have to do something important or if you don't think that will work tell them you forgot something at work. How far can it be from Roselle to Madison anyway? You're a lot closer than the vast majority of the rest of us, Geez!
Iave you heard the one about all this Corporate welfare that we can NOT afford has yet to produce any jobs?
the Republicans keep talking about cuts but why is it just workers that are getting the shaft?
How many politicians have given themselves a pay or bennie cut first? NONE!!!
How many upper level staffers have had their pay or benefits lowered? NONE
Tell me someone why not one single executive public or private have cut wages and benefits for themselves and staff?
Further, why are good working class Americans standing up for executives and their staffs to make as much as possible while stickin' it to the "little man"?
Please review. You will see how wall street continues to flip us all the bird.
We need to contact Fox/ MSNBC/every media you can, to get this mess straighten out. PLEASE REVIEW............
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/
www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216?page=6
The reality is there is a stark difference between public union workers and private sector workers. It is the public union workers ridiculous sense of entitlement. Most if not all private sector workers lost there pension and 401K plans over the past few years with out any chance for a bailout. Yet the over bloated pension and health care plans funded by citizens for public sector workers should be protected? Because of some poor management by government. Then if that is the case all the private sector workers who lost there tails because of mis management should receive the same salvation. What a joke!!!!!
"– Republican governors and Americans around the country are contemplating the state of the unions."
This is Wrong, and again the G-NO-P pushes to hurt working Americans.... Where are the jobs Republicans?
The latest poll in Wisconsin, the election in November, shows that the people of Wisconsin wanted change. They are getting it and the minority is whining. Scott came into office with a couple billion $ deficit and the people want it fixed. Of course those who make the most at the expense of taxpayers are whining because they don't care about the taxpayers, only themselves.
Maybe the Wisconsin government should just shut down, fire everyone, and start from scratch. No more seniority, no more whining, no more jobs forthe whiners.
According to the article, the bulk of the union members are black. Isn't that racism? I see that blacks are few and far between in the protest. Isn't that racism? The tea party protests had more blacks than the Wisconsin union protests, and they were/are called racists. Looks like the kettle calling the pot white syndrome.
Rixar, Dems have been in control for the last 4 years, including the executive for the last 2. What you don't understand is that it is not the governments job to create jobs, and if it chooses to do so, it is always government jobs it creates. Whether dem or rep, they really don't care about you or your job.
The only folks who create real jobs are businesses. Vote for those who will get business back to America, regardless of the party. And if you still believe obama ever cared about you, then you need mental health, but then they don't care about you either, unless you can pay, and then they still won't care about you. It is time to get off your knuckles and use your brain. If you can't do that, then you have lost. Blame yourself for that.
The tide is turning. Dems (especially government dems) get ready to learn to live without 2 late model cares, mortgages you can't afford, a few less gameboys and xboxes, and less starbucks. The tide is turning to the practical. If you want more for less, turn to China. Move there and you can live like kings, if you can keep the wages you currently "earn." And I use the term "earn" losely because you will never be able to "earn" what you get now by constsantly whining. You think you are worth more because a union represents you, but those days are coming to an end. Thank God. lol
All of you government employees got a holiday today while no one else did. How did you earn that? And Columbus day? MLK day? Veterans day? No one else gets those days off, except for banks, that are regulated by government. And teachers? My daughter is a teacher. She gets them all like you do, plus several months off during summer, Christmas, spring break. The average person gets 12 holidays and 2-3 weeks vacation. If you want more, move to France. Even they are beginning to see the light.
Go ahead and riot. Since most of you are against gun ownership, let us know how that works out for you. Just try to trash the neighborhoods of real Americans in protest.
Yeah, Spanky...those great paying government jobs, eh? That alone should be all the motivation a person needs to do it, right?
Mark - ZERO contribution to a pension. And if the salary the get is not motivation enough they are free to look elsewhere -free country and all.
Bye the way, see if you can guess the number of $100k+ government jobs now, vs. five years ago. And that's just salary, not including benefits.
Go ahead, give it a guess.
Mark evidently you don't know what government jobs pay with perks or the unrealistic early retirement benefits. one reason among many that people fight hard for these jobs even during good times
Looks like that's the trend. See links below for details.
So apparently government jobs are now highly secure, they pay great, provide the best benefits, and you can get a terrific retirement and benefit package when you take your early retirement!
And to keep this gravy train on track, the government and the unions just have to pry those tax dollars away from those stooges that work in the private sector.
And of course if anyone tries to take any of that away from the government worker, that worker can just walk off the job and go protest for a few days/weeks. Doesn't matter, there are no consequences. It's not like anyone will fire them or anything.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-6270781-503544.html
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/federal-pay-continues-rapid-ascent/
Spanky, why do you keep posting the crap about 0% toward pensions. Most of the Government employees pay something into their retirement pension. Where do you come up with your crap??
True, but not much, at least in Wisconsin. The money quote:
The measure [Gov. Scott Walkers plan] would increase the contributions of public employees to their own retirement and medical benefits. The plan, put forward by new Gov. Scott Walker, R-Wisc., would have public workers make equal contributions to their retirement funds (teachers currently contribute $1 for every $56.94 from the state) and increase workers share of health insurance premiums to 12.6 percent. Teachers in most districts currently pay less than 5 percent of their insurance costs. The national average for workers is 27 percent.
Source: http://www.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=22995&external=743086.proteus.fma&pageNum=-1
Why MSNBC of course. That's what Jansing & Co said with that funny little fellow Richard Lui and his graphs and charts.
Were you not watching? Come on now - they really really need the rating.
How about Schultz and co last night saying there is no budget crisis in Wisconsin. Huh, and here I was thinking $3.5 billion was real money. Guess not if you are a union sucking at the tit.
I am absolutely not a union supporter. Because of the union it helped close our place where I worked for 20 years. I do however fear businesses attitudes if there were no unions in sight. I have seen first hand that companies now look to their employees as a revenue source. Cutting back on contributions, reducing of benefits etc. I guess if I would to have my way, Unions would be ok if they did what they were originally meant to do. I saw a guy speak from the AFLCIO and he said people shouldn't be mad at Unions because the have pension plans, they should be mad because everyone doesn't. Now that is a little far fetched but as an example of what I spoke to earlier. The cost of a 401K now to a company is a fraction of what a pension was. The reason why is now the employee is the main contributor with a small match. To boot the employee is now responsible for managing their own. 401K were never meant to be a retirement plan, it was a loop hole to amend for pensions. Over time things have gone astray.
The current Wisconsin bill affecting state governmental unions is a state issue and the federal government has no business involving themselves in this debate. I am sure the President of the United States of America means well, but he is showing poor judgement by his involvement in this issue.
Thank you Joanes. President Obama's involvement is just another oversight of the federal government over the states. What happened to dual federalism, and what can we do to get back?
This Governor is a fool, he'll be fighting this in the courts for years and he'll lose and have to pay even more out than is already owed. A recall is Wisconsin's only hope!
Unions have a place, but have become too powerful and political. They should and do have the right to negotiate collectively, however when they go too far and dictate to the elected government, they must be desolved.
All employees have the right to leave their employer and work elsewhere and should do so if they are unhappy or dissatisfied.
I don't know if the Governor wants to break the union but I for one as a taxpayer would love to see NO collective bargaining in the Public sector period !!!! Later we'll talk about private sector UNION SCUM !Those jerks in the construction trade that call non-union guys scabs but when they are out of work (like most constuction union scum are ) they steal our work !!! Union SCUM !!!
Well Mr Spanky, I see you are Republican just by looking at your name.
If the budget was/is so bad why did the Governor give all that surplus from last year to Corporate interests and then pay fro that Corporate welfare by cutting workers wage/benefits.
Why have not one staffer or Politician taken a pay cut or bennie cut?
Did you vote for so many Politicians to get retirement and health benefits after as little as one term?
Why has not one executive public or private taken a hit on pay since all this budgetary crisis started, I mean is this really a crisis and the state can still afford executives and staff wages 2-10 times what workers make?
Hypocritical?
Mark_n_Indy
"Yeah, Spanky...those great paying government jobs, eh? That alone should be all the motivation a person needs to do it, right?"
Mark, do a google search in Wisconsin jobs. Top of the list is a detective making over $350 straight time. Maybe you should apply.
Any google search you do will show that the bulk of public union employees make more than nearly anyone in the private sector for similar education. Why is that? Public employees special, or just powerful unions that are headed by once public employees, backed by government employees, who threaten to strike? Let them strike and do what Reagon did. Fire them all and get people willing to work without ripping the public off just because they think they can. Dems are behind the rippoff. Always have been, always will be. They don't care about those paying the bill as long as they get to be above the cut. True story.
Let's re-elect Blogovich.
The was WMD in Iraq, trickle down works, politicians don't lie, bears don't crap in the woods, the BP oil spill had no effect on the gulf.
So is the beginning of the next civil war? Right now it's a battle between the government and the unions. But look for those two to team up soon and fight their common enemy, the taxpayer. Obama is already with the unions, and he's part of the government, so that truce shouldn't be hard to broker.
Suck they lost all those state governorships, eh?
Is it just me or have Fiesty, Bev and the gang picked up and gone home? These must be very trying times for the old dears.
They're close enough to Madison, they probably made it a day-trip. Never want to miss a big Libby-fest. Btw, Jesse Jackson showed up, so now it's officially a three ring circus.
Either that, or they went to Rockford IL to provide aid-and-comfort, if you know what I mean, to the nomadic Democratic State Senators from Wisconsin. You know, hot towels and such.
No kidding, you have teachers, supposedly profession dragging their politics into the classroom. And you have renta-protestors at picketing at the capitol. There is no sense nowadays. Soon you will have the "to each according to their "need", from each according to their "ability" teaming up with the I am from the Government and I am here to help for a superfascist socialist state. (and no, they(fascist and socialist) are not opposites)
Tea Party is showing up in Madison tomorrow.
Might want to notify those National Guard members to be on hot-standby. Maybe they should do some stretching and gas up the trucks.
Not a good reply JoAnna we don't want Americans turning on each other. A few weeks ago we were talking about civility. Maybe we could all take a step back.
I find it intriquing and rather disappointing that Americans are predominately focused on visciously attacking each other regarding the issue of labor unions (public or private). This whole labor union issue has expanded from originally being about money to now about the right to collective bargain. Will the winning side truly solve the economic problems? No, so we are polarizing ourselves over an issue that will not net winning results. Instead, the results will leave deep scars that do nothing to develop solutions to the real problems. Most rational people would agree that middle class workers are not responsible for individual state's budget woes or the federal deficits. The middle class (both public and private) carry the brunt of the tax burden in this country and dictate the business movements in the US economy based on their ability to consume goods. Business will always remain strong in America so long as their is a large middle class with consumption power. Middle class consumption generally keeps money in the country and any attack on its ability to consume should be treated with skepticism. As a matter of fact, the middle class is the most important and most maligned component in the American economy (state or federal). Business and political practices are designed to manipulate the middle class and the middle class is usually successful in responding. If you find yourself a member of the middle class, be careful about buying into political rhetoric that promotes division in this class..because who truly benefits and who has benefitted from a divided middle class?
Once again, the middle class finds itself turning on each other and focusing on issues that will NOT solve our budget problems while those people/institiutions responsible for creating this mess escape under the radar.
Sorry lisa s - just stating the truth. It's not like I'm sending them.
Battle lines have been drawn. Obama and Pelosi are on record that they side with the unions, the teachers that walked out on their students, and the Democratic State Legislators that ran away across the boarder. The Republicans and Tea party have sided with the overtaxed taxpayers of the state. Obama and Pelosi have nationalized this issue, so now everyone is watching. Emotions are high, and that probably means a conflict.
Al this was as predictable as the sun coming up. It's what happens when the money runs, and people getting the benefits of their entitlements no longer will be getting them. Get used to it.
JoAnnaSmith1, may I ask what you do for a living?
Here is how it is in the private sector. I have sometimes been lucky to have a company have some sort of matching on a 401K. But I have to invest my own money to get any of it. Have usually been lucky to have about 50% of the insurance premiums paid for by the employer. Worked upwards of 60-70 hours a week at times, and never less than 40, all without any extra pay above my salary.
Compare that to government workers that get tons of holidays, get paid overtime for anything over 40 hours a week, pay little or nothing for their insurance, and pay little or nothing for their pensions.
Unions have pretty much killed the golden goose as far as manufacturing goes in the US. They sucked the companies dry so that it eventually became cheaper for the company to just close the factory and make it in China. The unions pushed so much that they killed their own jobs.
They have done the same thing in the public sector. Thing is, that instead of going out of business, or moving offshore, they just increase taxes to pay for it. All the companies that moved offshore could have stayed here and paid for the huge costs of working with a union if they could force people to pay a much higher price for their products, like the government does with our taxes.
They should treat government workers just like the private sector. If they do not like it, let them go work in the private sector, if they could cut it. Last company I worked for cut the workforce by 50%, and those of us left had to take a 10% pay cut to keep the company in business. They should do that to the government employees. Problem is that when a private company cuts like that, everyone has to work harder, and usually does. If it was done with the governemet employees, they would either just work at their normal sub-private sector level, or slow down even more in protest.
Todd, I totally agree with you. I've been saying that all along: the middle class pays everybody's bills. And, the middle class is the result of the unions.
To all the 'conservatives' jumping on the government bandwagon:
True conservatism means an inherent distrust of government action, be it from a Democrat or Republican. When the opposition is willing to negotiate (which the unions are), and the government refuses, then it becomes the job of the conservative to ask 'why?'. The unions are willing to pay more into their pensions, pay more into their health-care, forgoing any raises, and cutting the bottom performing 10% of their members. All this, in exchange for not taking away their collective bargaining. If they had brought this deal before the governor of my state, he would have jumped on it. If they had brought this deal to the state next door, the governor there would take it as well. So why is Scott Walker rejecting what most state executive's would accept? What would he achieve by braking the backs of the unions for a gain that is significantly less than what he proclaims to budget shortfall to be?
It's one thing to believe the government because they are right (unusual that it happens, and questionable in this case). It is another thing altogether to agree with the government just to tote the party line (the fundamental opposite of true conservatism, unless you're a neo-con, then feel free to drink the kool-aid).
I wish these union people would stop the lies.... 1) Cathlic & Christian school teachers make 20% less not 25% more, those kids are far more advanced those teachers pay 50% healtcare, 50%401k...... And of course the big lie that they know as well as the demacrats is the more you tax the businesses the more they charge but to listen to these guys they think we are stupid enough to believe that if we tax them lets say 20% that no matter what business it is they are just going to eat the 20% and not do anything, FACT they raise prices by what ever you charge them and guess who pays since the union only represents 10% thats right the rest of us. PEOPLE THEY KNOW THIS THEY THINK WERE TO STUPID TO GET IT. IF THE UNION LEADERS WOULD NOT SPEND ALL THE MEMBERS MONEY ON PUSHING IT THIS FAR THE PEOPLE WOULD BACK THE MEMBERS WE THE PEOPLE DONT HAVE ANY MORE. PS the reason for fixing the collective barganing now is that as soon as demacrats get back in they would just give them back.
JoAnnaSmith1
"Tea Party is showing up in Madison tomorrow.
Might want to notify those National Guard members to be on hot-standby. Maybe they should do some stretching and gas up the trucks."
The tea party is not your enemy, The teabag leftists are. Just look at the violence in the past, it has always been leftists. Not once have the main stream right started violence. It is always the left and they are always on the losing end. You whined about Viet Nam when the dems escalated the war. You whines about WW2 when America was attacked. You whined about 9/11 when America was attack by those trained in Afghanistan. About the only thing you may have a bone to pick is with the Iraq war. They didn't have what everyone said they had, except yellow cake, 550 tons of it: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/05/world/main4235028.shtml as reported by leftist media that you ignored. Imagine them dumping that on you and then imagine that the government did not do anything about it. You would still be whining.
You would be the first to sue the government for not protecting you.
Bottom line is that the left wants to be protected when it is nearly impossible, they want to believe moslems are good, when everything show they are not. You want the highest wages in the land, when the bulk of you don't earn it, and you want taxpayers to give you the life of Riley, whether you have earned it or not.
So you want a civil war because you don't get enough from government even tho the poverty rate in America makes the rest of the world look like slugs squirming around. You have been a spoiled princess that deserves to squirm.
Bring on the civil war and see where it gets you. Of course you will fight with stupidity while the rest fight with guns that you think should be banned because you are afraid of self defense. Might blow your toe off because too stupid to learn mechanics.
Joe Scarborough: Wisconsin Public Unions Are ‘Greedy’ Free Riders
"Greedy Free Riders" We would love what Joe calls the Bankers, Wallstreet and his Corporate friends who took Billions in Bailouts from these Public Employees.
How very unfortunate Joe does not live in Wisconsin, was practically thrown out of Congress, still has issues by many that are yet unresolved!
Here’s what Joe said:
This morning, in apparent opposition of the protests, MSNBC host Joe Scarborough said that the unions “free-ride” and are “greedy“:
SCARBOROUGH: Are you kidding me? They are shutting down the state. You see these young students, mike, instead of trying to end a war, they are trying to make sure state employees don’t have to pay off 3 percent of their salary to our — or 4 percent of their salary for health care benefits. They are trying to make sure that these people do not have to pay what every other American who works outside of government has to pay. Are you serious?
You’re going to shut down schools because you have a union that is so greedy that they want their people to be held to different standard than working class americans who sometimes pay 15 percent of their salaries to benefits? [...] hey, we are not going to let you get a free ride on benefits
Here Are The Facts
Walker’s assault on unions comes less than a month after the state’s fiscal bureau — Wisconsin’s equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office — stated that Wisconsin is not in need of austerity proposals, and that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of the tax cut policies Walker put in place during his first days in office.
In fact, Wisconsin could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus without Walker’s bill.
Conveniently, the unions that supported Walker’s campaign — the State Patrol, local police, and fire departments — would stay completely unchanged under the new bill.
Wisconsin state employee unions already made $100 million in concessions last December.
Now, Walker’s new proposal would effectively take away the right of state employees to collectively bargain for everything from vacation, sick hours, and even the hours they work.
Scarborough has found himself positioned against prevalent public support, siding with Walker, who publicly said the National Guard will be used against a worker “walk-off.”
He also warned President Obama that it would be “wise” to stay out of his state.
Scarborough should learn to play in his own Back yard and stop carrying “Water” for his Republican Friends.
Joe carries the “Water for the Republicans” 3 hours every morning and that my friend is more than most can take.
Joe’s not fooling anyone with his on and off again attempts to “Play Nice” in lock step with the Republican stragety.
We’ve seen this Playbook, it just played in many cities near you, the Republican Party ‘Fool the Voting Public” and returned with a surprising agenda.
Well hey June, there's your problem - you are looking at the wrong book.
Stop focusing on the playhbook and start looking at the checkbook.
Glad i could help.
Don't worry, by the time these children are able to picket, they will already be supporting their thug parents.
Spanky: Let's use your analogy. You say the tax payer pays the teachers salaries, so any money they put into retirement is still paid for by the tax payer. Right? Then if you work for a company and the company puts any money into your retirement, or even pays you, then the taxpayer is paying your salary...because that taxpayer is buying your companies product or goods. How is that different??
Whoa verno, you completely misunderstand the difference between voluntarily exchange and theft. No private company can do business with you unless you agree to it. Contrast that with the forced taxation.
They couldn't be more opposite in nature. That is how it is different.
I don't see the DOJ going after any of the crooks on Wall St. either that's because they have all the power. The only reason AIG wasn't allowed to fail was because they owed Goldman Sachs too much $. Real reform would be for someone not involved with Wall Street or the big banks head up Treasury or the Feds. There truly are other smart economists out there. Maybe put someone in those positions who wasn't corrupt. The last person who tried to alter the way the Fed works was JFK his attorney general was RFK. Notice where they both are
Verno my man I don't scare easily, but what you just wrote? Oh my!
The real reason for this issue is being totally missed. This root cause of the Wisconsin Governors position is because THIS IS POLITICAL PAYMENT to the KOCH brothers. Two conservative billionaire brothers who funded not only Walkers campaign but others in their personal pursuit to gain more money for folks in their tax bracket. They present an image of 1)Grass roots movements, 2)The issues are about "out of control budgets and being fiscal responsible, 3) It's about "Americans" doing their "Fair" share. When the real reasons are 1) The movements are funded by the riches indidviuals to push agendas that support re-distributing wealth (money) from others to them. 2)The real issues are reducing their tax liabilities while increasing others. 3) Its about reducing regulations on Corporations, resducing Corporations from paying any taxes, i.e. Not paying THEIR own fair share of taxes that All Americans (individual and Corporations) have an obligation to pay. The constantly state "what America wants", when their focus is not on "America" but on lining their own pockets at the expense of All of us Americans. It Class Warfare. Wake Up America. While us little people are fighting/rallying about issues, the top 2% of americans are enjoying 80% of the wealth. Watching their Pon pieces play their games. WAKE UP AMERICA WAKE UP!
Could Scarborough be quoting the office memo from COMCAST?
Verno and Voice, you both brought up good points. Voice, I doubt I'd hear about the back room dealings.
Verno...I agree with you completely. The "taxpayers" no more pay my wages as a gov't employee than I pay the wages of burger flipper, or the car salesman. The gov't pays my wages, not the taxpayers. The taxpayers pay to live in this country, and if they do not like it, they have the option to leave.
As for those saying they have no choice in this, and that taxation is illegal or theft...I have other news for you. Your taxes fund the services you have voted for (either directly, or via your elected official).
Public unions are no different and no worse than private unions. As a matter of fact, the gov't is required to vote the contacts into law...so basically, you, as the taxpayer, have voted to approve any and all pay raises (again, via representation).
And as for the pensions, it has been proven again and again (if you do your own research, and not listen to the media) they are mostly funded by the employees, but are shortchanged because the elected officials continue to raid them.
And for all those whining because our wages and benefits are so good (again, a lie within itself...do your research)......I don't remember anybody say "Hey..share the wealth with the gov't employees" during the better years when most private sector workers were getting stock options and bonus. And believe it or not...most gov't employees are willing to, or have taken a paycut.
As an African-American female child of the sixties and the seventies, I have watched this country go through numerous transformations some good, some not so good and some just bad. Today, I think we sit squarely in the bad. When African-Americans fought for equal social rights in America it was the decency of the American public that led to change. It was not Martin Luther King, it was not freedom riders, it was John Q public who looked at a system that was wrong and committed to change it. Yet, soon after Civil rights were granted I saw the African-American community implode or disintegrate on unforgiveness, victimhood, anger, violence, drugs, laziness, false-religions, etc... In one generation, we have destroyed everything all the previous generations had worked so hard to achieve. While my grandparents worked at US Steel, raised hogs, ran a smokehouse and a catering business to ensure their seven children could attend college when they could not attend high school, today less than 50% of African-American children graduate from high school. The responsibility for that lays squarely at the feet of the African-American community and the political left. On the other hand, the 1970's ushered in decades of excess, unreality, greed, lust, and much of it fueled by corporate America. They use every means of advertising to stimulate in the average American adult and child the need for stuff. We have developed an insatiable appetite for things from clothes to houses to cars to investment accounts to drugs to sex to vacations to jordans to McDonalds, etc.... Everyone in this country believes at this point they have a right to everything, why not, isn't it what TV tells us. Big business drove our desire for things but took away the jobs which would allow us to acquire those things. At one point most Americans could afford a comfortable life, even African-Americans. The unions made sure of that. The men and women that worked hard in the manufacturing world were well compensated...until big business discovered that Asia, India, Africa, Mexico, Central America, offered workers without unions or laws to protect the workers and costs assoicated with those protections. The rust belt is about greed. Let me make myself clear, I don't thing the unions are blame free but big business ultimately demonstrated it is not nor will ever be a corporate citizen. A citizen shows loyalty and Corporate America has none. This is why when the Banks failed I believed and still believe America would have been better off to allow this country to return to a depression. Unfortunately, it will probably only be then that we will again get our priorities straight. Now, the fight has moved to government employees and teachers unions. This is a move to further privatize government. Pay attention, it didn't start here, the process began twenty years ago with privatizing Medicaid, Charter Schools, Waste Management, etc... If we break the unions, and there is no collective bargaining (i.e., no voice), I give it five years before the states begin privatizing the teachers, health care workers, court employees, and all other departments. The American public will buy the changes because we love rhetoric that says we are doing this for you the taxpayer. We care about your pocket. Maybe it might feel good to your pocket initially but what are the longterm costs. Let's say you work in private industry already but your wife is a teacher. All schools become privately managed. She now must work 8:30-5 M-F and weekends, if necessary. Schools go year round and there is no more Christmas break, Winter break or Spring Break and because there are no longer unions she can only accept the changes or lose her job. Maybe even her salary increase by 5 or 6 thousand dollars a year but what now are you child care costs if you have your own children. And more importantly, even if money is not the issue, what costs will your family incur when your wife, the mother of your children gives up literally months of time she was previously able to spend with them. So while the political and so-called Christian right proclaim to be the champion of the family, in fact, they support most policies which serve to undermine and destroy the family.
So, let's recap. Today we live in a country where every manner of sin runs rampant. Violence, drugs, abortion, gay marriage, gender confusion, crime, disrespect, corporate theivery, bank deceit, financial ponzi schemes, laziness, greed, individual excess, and unbridled selfishness. Some of these things are not crimes but they are no less wrong or responsible for the continuous demise of our country. There are millions of honest hard working couples, seniors, and singles who respect and trust the government and corporate America without realizing they are two sides of the same coin which no longer represent their interest. They tax us to hell only to bail out the banks foreclosing on our homes, and who happened to finance our companies move to shut down our jobs, close our plant, financially devastate my family and open a new one in Bangladesh. Its also the same bank which made sure the government keeps Pell Grants so low that it doesn't even cover a fourth of the costs of the averge state University. So even if you qualify, your family must still apply for at least 15,000 a year in loans for your child to attend college. If you don't quality for a grant you will pay on average, $20,000 a year for college. I don't know how many of you have an extra $20,000 a year laying around but I sure don't but that's what I paid for my daughter who graduates from Indiana University Bloomington in May. So, her four years as as in-state student costs me over $100,000. When I attened the University of Michigan in the eighties, my four years did not costs my parents less than $20,000. Something is wrong with that picture. There is no way the costs of an education should increase to such a degree in 25 years. That's why people in Wisconsin are fighting back, they are tired. The war on the middle class has been unrelenting for almost 40 years. Our incomes in real dollars have shrunk, our parents are elderly and require more from us than ever, we work harder and longer hours to make the same money, mothers are not home to prepare healthy meals for their children or to be their first teachers, our children are constantly begging us for all the stuff everyone else's kids seem to have, teens are disrespctful, many pastors are teaching God is a rich Santa Claus, and trying to send our kids to college is financially back breaking. Enough, we are not taking it anymore. The last thing we do have is our voice and without it how are we any different from Egypt or China.
I hope I have conveyed in this letter what I grew up on: common sense. The excesses of the left and the right are killing this country. America was built by people, white, black, brown, and yellow that believed in hard work and opportunity. When we again commit to supporting those values we will changes this country for the better. I believe we need to re-establish a few clear standards:
Marriage is a relationship between a man and a woman, abortion breaks God's heart, a man who refuses to work should not eat, Education is a fundamental right, all citizens individiual and corporate have a responsibility to demonstrate their loyalty to America and not to it's individual gain but respecting the basic truth that we are our Brother's keeper, properly caring for our young and our elderly is a true measure of our culture, Christianity needs to stop hiding and bring prayer back to our schools, excellence in parenting should be strongly encouraged and supported, finance reform in politics is the only way legislators will regain integrity, food system needs transparency and overhaul, no more genetically modified foods, turn off the TV, open a book, read to your children, cook a real meal, and bring back family life.
@verno
A business owner does in fact get business from a taxpayer. However, here's the difference. A business owner has competitors, he/she has to bust their butt and price competitively to win the business over said competitors. A taxpayer has the freedom of choice whether or not to utilize/buy their service and they are rewarded with payment for their hard work.
In contrast public schooling is a monopoly. Unless you are nice and rich and can afford private schools, there is no competition. I don't get to choose the best teachers/schools for my child. I get stuck with whomever has been there the longest irregardless of their ability to do their job. I have no freedom of choice and our country has a failing education system, but I still have to pay.
Jill, are you clueless? Your governor came into office with a huge debt, and like most states, was caused by dems who treat the people like watering troughs. As JAc says, the government has no competition. It just sucks and sucks the taxpayers for funding that the tax payer has little control over. I live in a leftist stae that is bankrupt - Oregon. It only happened when out of state dems moved in and took it over. The state is screwed now. All about the green energy that never gets paid for. Industry here sucks because of an owl few have ever seen. And now they want to kill owls that have migrated here to save the owl that forests have burned over. Dumb leftists.
If the world needs saving, compost a leftist. 3 billon strong - plentey of furtilizer. All fos.
In an op-ed piece in today's Washington Post, Ezra Klein argues that the unions are not responsible for Wisconsin's budget deficit, and that lawmakers should focus on the real sources of the problem.
Klein asserts the state's fiscal woes are actually due to business tax breaks and conservative health policy:
The new legislation was not offset, and it turned a surplus into a deficit.
As Brian Beutler writes, "public workers are being asked to pick up the tab for this agenda."
But even that's not the full story here.
Public employees aren't being asked to make a one-time payment into the state's coffers.
Rather, Walker is proposing to sharply curtail their right to bargain collectively.
A cyclical downturn that isn't their fault, plus an unexpected reversal in Wisconsin's budget picture that wasn't their doing,
is being used to permanently end their ability to sit across the table from their employer and negotiate what their health insurance should look like.
Ezera Klein? Wow. You could do better.
June do you agree that Wisconsin has a $3.5 billion deficit? Because Ed the ginormous moron Schultz and his guest flat out deny there is a crisis.
Math is hard, huh?
Wisconsin should just start printing their own money, just like the Feds do. They can put a Cheesehead on their dollar bill. Motto: In Cheese We Trust.
It would solve a lot of problems.
Governor Walker could have raised taxes or fired 6,000 state employees. Instead, like Governor Christie, he decided to actually fix the problems that brought Wisconsin to this point. His budget limits government collective bargaining to just wages, taking benefits and work rules off the bargaining table. He would also require voters to approve any raises above inflation. Walker would prevent government unions from forcing taxpayers to cough up for their gold-plated benefits.
I applaud the Governor for trying, but in the end I think he will regret his discussion and should have just fired the 6,000 state employees.
Spanky
Regarding the states budget:
And striping the Union Employees of Barganing Rights does not affect the budget.
I live in NJ. I don't know of one middle class working person who can stand Christie
The first thing that that Fat Windbag did was give a massive tax cut to the rich then he started to cut money for schools and programs to help the children of poor people (his little darlings go to private school so to heck with the children of the poor). He then stuck it to the teachers and other government employees who he got to support him by promising them the stars and the moon.
He then scrapped a much needed project (that was paid for) to build a new tunnel from NJ to NY putting thousands of people out of work and wasting billions on dollars already spent on the project. We have seen everyone go sky high under this Repug darling.
He is a liar who made his Education Chief take the fall for something that he did and lied about and then when he got caught intead of being a man, fired the poor guy. He is a prize alright. I would love for the "gasbag" to run for President, his one year record here in NJ would make very good ads for President Obama.
Spanky,
You are only half right. WI currently has ~$140M deficit. It has projected to have a $3.6B deficit by end of fiscal 2013 (not sure whose projection). So clearly a problem is developing that needs immediate attention. Unfortunately, Gov. Walker's bill to strip collective bargaining rights will not put one dime into the state treasury by then. The state pension is one of the few states that is actually fully funded. This probably won't last as we "shrink government" so newly hired state workers will have to receive smaller pensions of which they contribute to partially. Existing and (obviously) retired state workers would need to be grandfathered unless WI wants to spend more than it can possibly save on future legal bills.
With a projected $3.6B deficit by 2013, Wisconsin, which lacks in significant industry, will probably be forced to do the same thing as Illinois: Raise corporate and individual income taxes. Spending cuts will help, but they aren't going to get you anywhere near $3.6B by 2013 in Wisconsin. So much for Illinois companies moving north across the border for lower taxes let alone political and civil stability!
You are right-on that this is a "manufactured" financial crisis the Walker is using to punish those who did not support him and to break the unions (that did support democrates). Sparky will never get it based on (his/her) postings!
Never understood why New Jersey voted for Christie. Thank the stars we got Coumo. I may disagree with the man on most of his policies, but at least he's willing to compromise (and not passing around bestiality porno to his friends like the other guy).
D. Sen. Bingham of New Mex. annouces retirement. Will not run in 2012. Democrats are bailing faster than the perverbial rats on a ship. Hang in there conservatives. 2012 is coming.
I'm sure we will lose even more "moral" republicians like Chris Lee than retiring Democratic congressmen/women.
At this rate, my party will be dead in a few more decades.
P.S - When I say 'my party', I meant the party of Lincoln through Goldwater. Everything from Nixon onwards you neo-cons and Christian fundamentalists can keep.
you are incorrect. I teach, and I have money taken out of my pay check every two weeks and put towards my retirement fund. I also worked in the private sector for many years and never had an employer that didn't contribute to my 401K.
and prey tell where does the money come from to pay you your salary?
Not like the school earns income, right. Please just try to think this stuff through. And as for the 401K - exactly my man, that's right.
my god you're an idiot spanky. Do you think we should turn all those kids they teach out into the steets? maybe they could find a good sweatshop to work in? We could all pass laws like Kansas is prop;osing eliminating child labor laws...put the little brats to wotk?
My employer did not contribute to their employees 401ks this year due to a financial crunch. In addition, public employees are able to buy into a public retirement fund rather than social security.
Actually, as a state employee in CA I contribute to my pension (just raised by another 3%) as well as social security, and by option, a deferred comp plan. I also pay 20% of my health benefits.And we are furloughed at the moment, by the way.
Give the rich their tax shelters and cuts, give the corporations their loopholes, and attack the unionized workers....nice plan to create a country of rich and not so rich. If you want to cut the budget, then end the wars, tax the corporations, tax the rich and attack the executive, legislative and administrative branches' pensions, outrageous salaries and perks, and golden health care packages!
That's exactly right Anita... all of this is to do just that; the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Doesn't the true solution seem so much easier than all this?
The poor get poorer because they have to support their thug parents who want everything handed to them, and the rich get richer because they actually have a marketable skill with real education and work smarter not harder.
It's so easy to throw out those blanket statements, which cover everything but the ignorance of that concept. Plenty of people make a living off the interest of their millions, I know a few of them. I'd hardly call that working.
Why does it matter to you what rich people are getting? If someone inherits millions and is able to keep those millions, then honestly he deserved them. Because, let's be honest, no amount of money can keep a slacker from slacking. So, don't complain that others have more than you. Let's be adults and earn for ourselves what we want to earn.
anita
attack the executive, legislative and administrative branches' pensions, outrageous salaries and perks, and golden health care packages
Aren't these government employees? Which side of the battle are you on?
Obama is already with the unions, and he's part of the government, so that truce shouldn't be hard to broker. Joanna get the facts just this a.m. John Boehner said loud and clear he Stands With the Gov Of Wisconsin. That means Boehner stands for making differences, discrimination since the Firefighters, police and another Union who Endorsed the Gov and voted for him are "Exempt" Last time I checked we live in a Democracy even the Gov dow not have the right to Silence we the people and Discriminate based on who he likes, and who votes for him.
If America looses this value and allow Republican Governors to Discriminate based on who votes for them, get ready the city's will be standing up. You can only do so much and people will stand up for their rights.
Even the news media is only reporting half of this story, just that the Public Employees are standing up because the Gov is "taking away their rights to negotiate" no one is reporting that the Governor is Officially "Discriminating against Employees" Last time I checked that is Illegal in Our country.
If the President and our Lawmakers let this Discrimination and Take away our Citizens Democracy their ability to Negotiate, we can look forward to serious issues and no longer proclaim that America is a Democracy
June,
and the democrats have never done that either
June who said they have a right to negotiate? What makes you think that because there Public Employees they have a right to even be union? Where and what law is it that says this. You work for the Public our taxes pay for there wages. The government needs to govern the way they need and when they need to. The unions have been breaking the backs of these States and it's over. We can't afford it, they need there pay in line with the private sector and since they are Public Employees it actually should be a little lower during these hard times for the taxpayers who are paying this. There are millions of Public Employees that are over paid for what they do, and that's the truth!
Len,
Only 12% of Americans belong to a union. How is that "breaking the back" of anyone? What about the other 88% non-union?? Someone is really blowing some serious smoke up your ass. Did I mention that on average public employee salary/wages are less than their private counterparts? How do states/municipalities attract talented workers? By making the benefit portion of compensation more attractive and, if civil service, more job security than their private counterparts. You have to look at the entire compensation package: Salary/wages, benefits, and retirement to make a real comparison. Public employees are also taxpayers. You seem to have forgotten this.
As far as the right to negotiate, even an individual can negotiate with their employer. As for groups, there doesn't need to be a law giving them the right to negotiate, they have that right by default unless precluded by law, as in the case of some worker's unions responsible for public safety. You definitely have this concept ass-backwards.
And in your future posts, for everyone's benefit here, please crack open your school days grammer book on the proper use of there vs their vs they're. But I guess if the teachers in WI walk, soon everyone in that state will be writing that way.
I love it rapture! kids in third grade learn the use of their, there and they're! However, in many states, there were laws that had to be passed by various states to entitle unions to the right of arbitration. Wisconsin is one, and New Jersey is another, and in both of those states that right is being threatened. You are right, there should not have to be a law for what should be understood by all as a right. But in the real world, school boards and state and municipal governments can shut the door and decline to listen to any group when it comes to pay and benefits. If there didn't need to be such a law, what is all the fuss about in Madison? The law is there to keep politicians honest and to force them to remember that there is that basic idea of freedom of speech. When the bill of rights was written, perhaps for politicians there should have been mandatory listening as well as free speech.
Republican Strategy For Taking Teachers & The Rights Of Public Emloyees; Gutting the Collective Bargaining Rights of The Public Sector Teachers, and lowering their salaries and benefits, The most competent teachers will leave teaching for more lucrative employment –
Leaving the most Incompetent Teachers in the Public Schools.
Then -- PRIVATIZATION -- of the School System because the Public Schools are failing to teach young people.
PRIVATIZATION Of Other Public Areas Will Occur also
It all makes perfect sense.
It has never been about jobs.
That was only an excuse by Republicans To Get The “Voting Public to put them back in power.
This is all about “Eliminating those programs Repubicans are ideologically opposed to, and
do not want to pay for.
Look for more attacks on
Unions,
Medicare (Our Elderly Sick Citizens),
Social Security (Our Elderly Retired Citizens),
Medicaid (Our Poorest Citizens women and children), and
EPA (Throwing The Environment To H***),
Uninsured Americans
Immigrants
Muslims
This is Just a “few”
Notice, many are about the Public Good
You are already stretching the truth . Its "illegal" immigrants.
The "public good" doesn't matter when you can just control them, strip their freedoms, while at the same time have the freedom to buy whatever you want, whenever you want. It's a sad state of affairs... it's now or never, the pressure is on to empower the people now.
Well the EPA can go to h3ll, they're about as corrupt as it gets. They need to be replaced with an organization that actually cares more about the environment than their own pocketbook, and also no when to put man above animal.
Medicare, SS and Medicaid are all in the red or headed there, even liberals will agree something needs to be done about those.
Unions have their use, but like the EPA, they've lost sight of what they are supposed to be about. Trying to force Viagra to be covered by their health care is BS (just an example I've seen multiple times in the past year).
Uninsured Americans... been there myself, it's tough but I survived.
Immigrants... this country is over run with illegals. As soon as they cross that border w/o authorization, they are a criminal and should be treated as such. Never mind the billions in health care, welfare, crime, incarceration, ESL courses, government paperwork printed in 100 languages, etc, etc.
Muslims... same as illegal immigrants, multiculturism does NOT work. Take a look at Europe, take a look at history. Liberals choose to forget history and what it has proven. For that, they will drive this country into being a third world country with conflicts and hunger just like Africa.
How do we destroy the Republican party? Expose their donors! The Republican corporate donors are responsible for everything the Republican party does. We must financially devastate their corporate donors.
Yes Flex immediately stop buying stuff. That should cover it. Good luck with that.
Psst, what type of entity do you suppose owns this website?
I'm with you Flex. I am outraged by the corporate sponsorship and lobbying that is used to create power against the working people. And I'm even more outraged that the highest paid guys in the room are crafting lies and talking points to get average people on their side, before the people have any time to do their own analysis of what's going on in this country. FOX is their ultimate tool of disinformation, to rally up public support.
Ah yes, since Republican McCain received more corporate donations than Democratic Obama in 2008...
Oh wait.
Well, actually, Obama was able to raise record amounts of campaign money through grass-roots efforts, which eclipsed the corporate sponsorship McCain drummed up. A case of the American Public winning over corporate greed, which is a rarity.
And union sponsorship.
McCain is a RINO and should not be called a repub. He flips and slides and lies more than a CEO.
they look like tea partiers to me, liberals want them all shot.
I used to believe unions had served their purpose and were a negative for the country. After the last three years I have come 180 degrees, and take heed of the fact that without unions we would be working 6 days a week, 16 hours a day, at a dollar an hour, no vacations, no sick leave, no work rights at all.
If you don't see that coming back within the influence Corporations now have in Washington, please take a second look.
Except that history has shown that unions can be just as corrupt as the corporations. Unions, in fact, have a lot of influence in Washington. The economic interest groups do not just include corporations; they also include unions. If your goal is to destroy corruption, unions have not helped. If your goal is limit the wealth of man, unions have succeeded.
Rob, thanks for your support and you are 100% right. I keep reading about all these 100,00 dollar a year gov jobs, I've had the same one for the last 28 years and still don't make 20 bucks an hour????
Yes, if companies were not so greedy and tried to abuse their workers, there would be no need for unions. We have companies to blame for greedy unions.
Unions, in fact, have a lot of influence in Washington.
The day unions match multinational corporations in campaign contributions and political influence is the day when the balance of power will be even of both sides. Since that will never happen, I'll just go back to my non-unionized government job.
Democrats get elected by union money and then sign their inflated contracts for government jobs, how is this not illegal? Unions know they can buy politicians and Obama is one of the worst I have ever seen. Unions in the private sector are often needed to protect employees. In the public sector, they are used to buy influence and therefore obscene wages and benefits.
I see the union paid shills are out in force today, lol
Does the union pay you or the DNC?
want to make moeny, start taxing colleges. How is it that Notre Dame can fire their football coach and pay him $30million and hire another for more than that and claim they are non-profit? Liberal bullpoo!
Sure they want young people to be educated, thats why they requier text books for $90 that they like to change every year so u cant get used books.
The US is a scam run by a liberal oligarchy.
.
Well HO FAT...obviously you have neglected to better yourself through post secondary education. I never paid full price for books, always paid used prices and was always able to sell them back at the end of the year.
You'd be better off taxing churches. At least colleges have some value-added for the economy...
Never understood why we don't tax churches. I thought they were suppose to render onto Caesar what is Caesar's (taxes)?
hey hey ho ho mr. walkers got to go!!
ho ho hey hey unions unions here to stay!!
Always good to hear from the communist party.
Funny. However, UNION, doesn't mean communist. As an example, the constitution of the United Steelworkers forbids membership in the communist party. At least if you are running for an elected position in the Union leadership.
Given how the United States of America is a UNION of the fifty states, no citizen can make a statement equating union membership with communist without implicating themselves.
One year from now, Wisconsin will have a new Governor. Book it.
I'll pul money one that!
I don't know, I think the people of Wisconsin have lost their minds. They used to be a progressive state where the working person was respected.
One year from now America will have a new president and Obamacare will be on its deathbed, BOOK IT !!!
The American citizens are not conflicted about Unions. We may have been misinformed for years - Did anyone know that until School Teachers unionized that female teachers could be fired for getting married???? Because we have had such decent working standards for so long people have forgotten how it was over 80 years ago because no one is around to remind us. But just like we got those workers rights - we can lose them! Believe it!
Because you can't make married/single people a protected class, right? Gotta have the unions though!
These action occurred at the turn of the century BEFORE the unions began protecting the workers. Read a history book.
flip side. did anyone know that there are RN's who vacated their posts in a large hospital, deserting their patients, and the union retained their joby with threats of reprisal. i worked with them. this is one reason unions need to be contained. they have priced "union made" products out of reach for most of middle america. constant demands for fewer hours and higher wages, free health care, and retirement that noone else can afford has sent more jobs overseas than any one other thing. and its not the CEO's who are to blame. the unions are. corporations are required to maintain profits. even union members who invest want the company to maintain a good profit. and the only way to do that is to cut production costs or increase sales. neither of these options is left open with increasing union demands to the company.
We must expose the Republican party donors. The corporations that fund them are responsible for this!
We must expose the Democratic party donors! The unions that fund them are responsible for this!
@JDrizzle...Unions are made up of people, in the United States each "person" gets one vote which there by entitles that person to finance their choice for public service in any way that is legal. Corporations do not have a vote in any public election, but yet they are now allowed to contribute at any level they see fit. In essence, the Supreme Court gave corporations the same privileges as a person?? This is why we need to know who the Corporate Contributors are! Does that help you understand??
Straightline
Unions make everyone (even non-union employees) pay dues that they use to support candidates under the same rules as corporations. But they can use the money of the non-members to support candidates that the non-members may oppose. Seems quite communist to me.
This whole scenario is appalling. There was NO budget deficit problem in Wisconsin until the Republican Governor and Legislature gave huge tax cuts to their wealthy Masters. That's a fact. Now the Republicans continue to try to insist on paying for their tax breaks for the wealthy by attempting to eliminate the Unions and by slashing programs to feed, shelter, and provide care to the poor and disabled. I applaud the Democrats use of any tactic necessary to prevent these from happening. Nothing they do can be worse than the Republicans' attempts to let old people die by eliminating Medicare and Social Security. Let Grandma and Grandpa die in poverty to protect Corporate profits and billionaires from paying their fair share of taxes? Good job guys!
spanky: I am a teacher and I pay a lot of money into the TRS retirement system every month!! and I have my own personal retirement fund. So why do you think that all people that work under unions pay nothing into their retirement?? Unions aren't just for government workers you know.
Steve, define " a lot" of money. In CA, teachers contribute 8% of pay which buys them a lifetime income stream of 70% of their highest 3 years of compensation. Average teacher enjoys 27 years of retirement. In a word .... UNSUSTAINABLE
Yes, and why are teachers exempt from paying into Social Security while the government plunders this fund. That's what's not fair. If teachers are exempt, so should private sector employees
I was a teacher and I have NO CLUE why you believe we are EXEMPT from paying SS. I paid more in SS and MediC SS than I did in taxes!!!! Our state (NC) has not raised teachers pay in the last 3 yrs. I paid around 7% in retirement and medical. After teaching for 20 yrs(in NC) and reaching 62, I receive the astounding large retirement of 1000 a month! That is fair, based on what I paid in....WI needs to get rid of public servant unions....new teachers in our state make around $30000 a yr. I don't see them running to WI to teach....tooo cold, tooo liberal, toooo unionized. NC is a right to work state....you don't have to pay some fat cat union dues.....how much of that $89000 they make goes to pay dues?
I have been in the work force for 38 years. 20 of that in the armed forces, the rest in the private sector. Both working in a union shop, and non union.
Since my separation from the military in 1996, I have seen the erosion of Veterans benefits at an alarming rate. Where was and is the outcry of the public for our veterans? They don't get to collective bargain for a good wage. In fact, until Reagan, their pay was so low, it was pathetic. Yet, they go into harms way, without whining, and serve the public, that they swore to do.
Working in a union shop and a non union shop;
The only difference between the two, there was none. My union dues paid for my health insurance, funded my retirement.
The non union shops, I paid for my insurance from my paycheck, my employer matched my 401K funds. I worked 5 days a week, 40 hours a week, with paid overtime.
There seems to be some misinformation. Private sector unions, are not bad, per se, I got a reasonable pay for the work I did, it was exhorbitant, like some unions DO, UAW comes to mind.
But for the most part, unions have run their course, there are enough labor laws on the books, to where it is and would be difficult for a business to take advantage of their employees, as they once did.
Firemen, Policemen and State Troopers, they should have a union, as so much for collective bargaining, but for the union rep to protect them against unfounded claims. They go into harms way everyday, and should be compensated as such.
Teachers and other government employees, (including our legislators), if they want a pay raise, more benefits, they need to do it the old fashioned way, THEY EARN IT!
No more of the unions raping our states. I applaud WI for their initiative.
You will feel exactly this way "tea" until God forbid someone breaks into your house, or your kitchen catches fire, your kid in the charter school full of unqualified teachers gets a 300 on the SAT or you have a heart attack. Such imagination with your handle. I guess your dog is named Fido and your cat is named Puff.
Hey whocares. "Whocares"? You people are all brain dead from frost anyway.
Please review. You will see how wall street continues to flip us all the bird.
We need to contact Fox/ MSNBC/every media you can, to get this mess straighten out. PLEASE REVIEW............
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/view/
www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216?page=6