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Subscribe to RSSHow the protests in Wisconsin have turned the political rhetoric upside down from one year ago… The physics of American politics: For every action (like the one in WI), there’s an equal and opposite reaction… How Walker’s showdown is high risk and high reward… Walker, Wisconsin Ranger… Palin appears to have more traction with the media than Iowa activists… And Obama to deliver a speech in Oregon at 2:35 pm ET.
From Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Ali Weinberg
*** Upside down: Anyone else noticed how the political protests in Wisconsin -- as well as the game of hide and seek there -- have turned the political rhetoric upside down? A year ago, during the health-care fight in Washington, Democrats maintained that elections have consequences. Now it’s the Republicans in power in Wisconsin (and elsewhere) who are saying this. A year ago, Republicans complained of partisan legislation being quickly crammed through the system (though that process took an entire year), and now it’s Democrats who are voicing this complaint in Wisconsin. And a year ago, Republicans used every parliamentary trick in the book (cloture, votes up until Christmas Eve) to stop or slow down the health-care legislation. Now we’re seeing the Democrats use what’s at their disposal (like fleeing to Illinois to deny a quorum) to stop or slow down the legislation in Wisconsin. Bottom line: Those in political power do every thing they can to pass their priorities, and those out of power do every thing they can to stop them.
*** The physics of American politics: The situation in Wisconsin is also another reminder that Newton's third law of motion -- for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction -- applies to American politics. When George W. Bush, after winning re-election, tried to partially privatize Social Security in early 2005, he woke up a despondent Democratic base. When Barack Obama, at the height of his popularity, decided to take on health care, the Tea Party and an energized GOP rose to combat it. And now the physics of politics is playing out in Wisconsin, where Democrats and organized labor are resisting new Gov. Scott Walker's (R) effort to strip state workers of their collective bargaining rights. The question to ponder in Wisconsin -- as well as in the battlegrounds of Ohio and Florida, or in the Capitol Hill fight over Planned Parenthood -- is whether these combative efforts end up energizing Democrats as we head into 2012. After all, there is probably not a more unifying force than being out of power.
*** High risk, high reward: You knew a state budget showdown in the states was coming. It’s just surprising that this showdown is taking place in Wisconsin, a state Obama won in 2008 with 56% of the vote (though Kerry barely won it in 2004, and the state has had a slew of GOP governors). It’s a highly educated, fairly unionized state that was a birthplace of American progressivism (“Fighting Bob” La Follette, anyone?). So this is a high-risk, high-reward move for Walker and the Republicans. If they’re successful in Wisconsin, they can certainly be successful elsewhere. (As Greg Sargent puts it, “If labor loses after staking so much on this battle, other state governments may feel emboldened about forging forward with their own efforts to weaken municipal unions.”) Then again, as we mentioned above, they could be waking up a sleeping giant heading into next year’s presidential contest. Remember, it was less than a month ago when Obama traveled to Wisconsin after his State of the Union address to shore up his base there.
*** Walker, Wisconsin Ranger: The other surprising part of this showdown is that it's taking place so early in Walker's term, and so early in the legislative session. This isn't over cuts or pay -- folks are missing the point on this front. The Democratic state senators fled over the attempt to strip collective bargaining rights. And what's odd about this showdown is that one would assume this THREAT over stripping collective bargaining would have been used to get the cuts he wanted and the pension contributions that he needed for his budget. But he's going for the jugular all at once. It sets a tone for Walker for his entire four years, and sets a polarizing tone for the state politically for 2012. And it could make it hard for Walker to get much done after this showdown. But politically, it will make him a hero of the right, particularly anti-union activists.
*** Palin has more traction with the media than with Iowa activists: Yesterday, Sarah Palin delivered a speech in Long Island that generated a fair amount of media attention, especially as it relates to 2012. When asked whom she might back if she doesn’t run, Palin said, per NBC’s Catherine Chomiak: “I would look for is somebody who is, let’s start off with, a woman, a mom, somebody who's administered locally, state, interstate, with energy issues, so maybe a mayor, a governor, an oil commissioner, maybe someone who's already run for vice president.” (Hmmm, who would that be?) But as the Washington Post’s Dan Balz writes today, she appears to have more traction with the media than with actual Iowa activists, a conservative group that C.W. folks believe should be a natural base for Palin. Covering a focus group of these activists, Balz said, “Palin has a reservoir of goodwill but must overcome real obstacles. Georgia Vincent, an office manager, admires Palin but doesn't see her as presidential. ‘I have tremendous respect for her, but I don't think that the presidency is where her talents could be best used,’ she said.”
*** Obama on the West Coast: At 2:35 pm ET, President Obama delivers another “winning the future” speech at Intel in Hillsboro, OR. Per the White House, Obama “will tour the world’s most advanced semiconductor manufacturing facility with Intel CEO Paul Otellini,” who was named to the White House’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness.
Countdown Chicago’s mayoral election: 4 days
Countdown to Election Day 2011: 263 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 353 days
* Note: When the IA caucuses take place depends on whether other states move up
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The protests in Wisconsin are heating up. Last week as I was writing about Egypt and the protestors there and I made the statement are you watching GOP/TP? At that time I did not think a protest was so close to home but I did say (many times) that people can be pushed only so far before they push back. Well GOP/TP the people are pushing back. The democratic State Senators left town denying the Republicans a quorum, so no vote. There are still protesters in the street. This is not going to stop here. I think this scenario is going to be played out at many more States and there is a real chance some my get ugly.
As I wrote yesterday, there was no Budget Crisis in WI. When Governor Walker took office his own independent budget office said they were on target for a 120 Million Dollar Surplus for the year. First thing Gov. Walker did was to give 140 Million Dollars in tax cuts to Corporations, and then he claims a 137 Million dollar shortfall, one of which he created not the unions. The Unions had nothing at all to do with the current shortfall. This is all about breaking the Unions and the backs of the Middle Class. This Governor is running a fraud against his own people. To make it worse he wants to do away with the Unions rights to any collective bargaining at all, period, none. Dictator Walker is making a mistake and grossly underestimating the people in his state. He is using the job cuts to pay for the Tax Cuts to the Corporations and it has nothing to do with the unions. No budget crisis just a scam to get the unions to pay for the tax cuts for the corporations and thereby breaking the unions. The same scenario is also playing out in Ohio. What is the common factor? Collective Bargaining is being attack in both cases to weaken or destroy unions.
And the hypocrisy continues, a quote from House Speaker Boehner Thursday in an interview with Hannity: “The only people cheering for government shutdown around here are Democrats, led by Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer. There’s been no talk about shutting the government down on our side. Our goal here is to reduce spending. It isn’t to shutdown the government”.
I guess these guys did not get the message.
Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR), Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-GA, Rep. Tom Price (R-GA), Rep. Steve King (R-IA),
Rep. Tim Walberg (R-MIRep, Alan Nunnelee (R-MI), Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX], Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX),
Rep. Joe Walsh (R-IL).
All of them have said shutting down the government is a viable even desirable option this week. This is a bad idea on so many fronts. Once again the GOP/TP is looking short term for immediate gratification and not the long term health of this country. They fail to see beyond the 2012 election which is what is driving this agenda to shut down the government. It did not work when Newt did it and cost the government 800 Million dollars. In this fragile economic environment the damage will be many times that number. This will have a negative impact on this country and it will be a sot heard around the world. Mark my words on this. Regardless of the spin from the right, the GOP/TP is going to be responsible for this. They (GOP/TP) talk about compromise as long as that compromise includes all of their demands. That is not a compromise that is a threat, pure and simple.
An interesting point was raised on the Rachael Maddow show last night. I said this pandering around with the spending cuts was what the GOP/TP wanted because it diverts the attention of the people away from creating Jobs and improving the Economy. Two things the GOP/TP does not want to talk about. RM offers another reason. There are over 400 Amendments to the Spending Bill and each one needs to be debated. Right now the House is not setting any speed records and we do not know how long this is going to take and March 4th is just around the corner. Is Speaker Boehner trying to run out the clock? I do not know, interesting point though. What if this is not settled by the 4th then what? Does this give the GOP/TP a CYA position?
Civil Disobedience:
For the past two weeks we have watched riots in Egypt, Iran, Libya and Bahrain, (just to name a few) and with the exception of Egypt, the military has had to enter the fray and put down citizen protests. Some say it is citizens wanting Democracy, others define it as people deciding to overthrow authoritarian rule. Common features among the rioters are that few have jobs, there is not enough food to eat, and they have little hope for the future.
Certainly in American history there have been riots, and at times the military has had to step in to maintain law and order. The civil rights marches come to mind as minorities were denied their inalienable rights. While they were usually non-violent, I still have vivid memories of police and police dogs attacking the marchers in Alabama, Mississippi, and Arkansas.
Then again, during the Viet Nam war there were some not-so-peaceful demonstrations against the government. A peaceful demonstration was held at Kent State University and the National Guard fired shots, killing a student and wounding others. A portion of American citizens had strong beliefs that the Viet Nam war was wrong and they expressed their First Amendment rights to assemble and speak their mind. .
Now today in Wisconsin schools are being cancelled as teachers, students and public employees protest Governor Scott Walker who wants to deny public workers their right to collective bargaining. Apparently he is also denying them their right to peacefully assemble and their right to speak; as he threatens to bring out the National Guard to stop them from protesting.
What is this new Tea Partier governor thinking? Does he want to create another Kent State? Maybe it's an authority-control thing to make American citizens obey his rule. Maybe, like most Tea Partiers, he is clueless about how to govern and he should be impeached. And maybe he should be looking at history and other parts of the world to learn that there are better ways to resolve disputes.
“Elections have consequences and I won”
Seems to me that I remember some famous lefty liberal telling the Republican’s that a couple of days after he was inaugurated as President in 2009. Well, the voters in Wisconsin elected a Republican governor and a Republican legislature and I guess elections have consequences and they won.
And the childish nonsense of the Dems running away and hiding in Illinois is simply HILLARYOUSLY FUNNY!!!! What a bunch of clowns and morons. What’s next? Are the Dems going to threaten to hold their breath until the die??
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From Politico:
Wisconsin Republicans won’t be “bullied” by the state’s Democrats or by the unions protesting a controversial labor bill, Gov. Scott Walker said Thursday night.
A group of Democratic legislators left the state, crossing into Illinois on Thursday to block a vote on a bill that would end collective bargaining agreements for unions that represent public sector employees, but the GOP governor said their move has only made his party’s case more convincing. “I think it’s made the Republicans in the assembly and the senate stronger,” he said on Fox News’s “On the Record.” “They’re not going to be bullied. They’re not going to be intimidated.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49800.html#ixzz1EJfTRpMF
US Navy, Ron. Excellent way to finish the week. American workers have found their voices again! This is a great week for every worker who just wants to earn a living, feed their families and enjoy a few comforts in their golden years.
Remarkable that Governor Walker exempted the police, firefighters and state troopers in his union busting strategy …
WAIT…
What’s that you say???
They ALL endorsed Walker… eh – never mind!
What we are seeing in Wisconsin and Ohio is about politics, namely breaking the unions. What is common to both is the collective bargaining rights of the unions, but why break the unions?
In 2010 of the top 10 outside money groups like PACS and Special Interest Groups like US Chamber of Commerce and Karl Roves Groups have grown at an unprecedented rate due primarily to the “Citizens United” decision by the corrupt SCOTUS and the failure of a “Disclosure Act” blocked by the GOP.
In 2010 of the top 10 outside campaign fund raising groups 7 are right wing groups and 3 are unions (SEIU, AFSCME and the NEA). That is it for the big money brokers and they account for 90% of the political contributions in 2010 by some reports.
What if those three Democratic supporting entities were no longer viable? Well, it would give the GOP/TP an open field with no competition at all. What would that do to an already corrupt political environment?
This is what Wisconsin, Ohio and others is all about? Political Elections now and in the future, the GOP/TP is trying to destroy the competition and take total control of the money machine they created just like they are trying to destroy the rights of women, gays, immigrants, etc. It is all about their agenda for more wealth and power.
After doing a little research it appears to me that the state was already in a budget deficit before Governor Walker was elected. It seems that the people in Wisconsin knew that they had budget problems already when they were making their choice in the November elections.
Note, these articles are from 2010, before Gov Walker was elected.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/opinion/column/phil_hands/article_1582f342-e9c6-11df-a6c3-001cc4c002e0.html
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/102748564.html
Note to the 'Gang of 14':
I would be more than happy to grant you 'political asylum' in my home, until Governor Walker agrees to sit down and negotiate!
Elections do indeed have consequences - let this be a WAKE UP call to all Democrats that complacency can not to tolerated in mid term elections!
Ron:
Great post to end the week. Thank you. When we all were talking about the Egyptian protesters many of us brought up the possibility of something like that happening here. We did not realize just how true we were. We talked about how the Civil Disobedience in Egypt would grow legs and it did and it appears those legs stretched across the big pond as well.
As I mentioned before, the American people will take only so much before they start to push back and it looks like they are pushing back. Many are starting to realize the bill of goods they were sold in November and they do not like it.
Ron,
Really?
There's no difference between "not having jobs, enough to eat and no hope for the future" under a dictator ....... and a governor asking the state employees to contribute 5.8% to their pension plans?
They have enough money to contribute to the unions, contribute to the Democrat campaigns, but if they are asked to contribute to their own pension plans at a rate less than 1/2 of what every one else does that pays their salaries and pensions - there's "no hope for the future!"
BTW - I thought teachers were all about "the children", selfishing devoting their lives to the education of America. So with them walking out of the classrooms, what is more important - a free 5.8% for their pensions, or the "the children?"
Welcome all you proud, new members of the tea party! Your gonna fit in just fine!
The URL below is a video of the Wisconsin union tea party attacks on gov Scott Walker at his home and throughout the state, which include signs with Nazi, dictator, rapist and calling for his death. It also shows quotes of various Dems calling for civility and claiming over the last two years that Democrats never, ever, ever, ever, engage in this type of thing or stoop to this level. Just like the libs on this blog. My oh my how the left so quickly and easily transformed into the very people they despise and claim never to be. We of course have always seen through the left’s hypocrisy and knew it was only a matter of time before they would expose themselves for what they truly are and now can no longer deny.
So much for your credibility. Now what was it Ron said yesterday? Oh that’s right …….“time to cut your losses, you lose”
All partisanship, kidding and one-upmanship aside, we are all human, left and right and it was ridicules to think otherwise or claim to be better.
The Wisconsin collision highlights the inability of the ideologically-driven far right to distinguish its agenda, supported by a very small minority of voters, from the agenda of "the people."
Joe in albany said, "Elections have consequences." Indeed, they do - and most particularly, they have consequences when the voters discover they were tricked and betrayed, as is occurring now not only in Wisconsin and several other states (Florida excepted, where Rick Scott is indeed keeping his word to the deep chagrin of both right and left), but also at the Federal level. Here are notes about the Friday budget debate projections in Congress:
The GOP/TP budget proposals range from reasonable to ridiculous. They will cost jobs, slow economic recovery, and of course weigh most heavily on the working classes. The cuts are not to block some imaginary "handouts" to lazy and undeserving people, they are ideologically-driven attempts to achieve goals the far right has pursued for decades.
For example:
An article on the budget debates also notes:
Translation: More ultra-right and fundamentalist religious pressure attacking reproductive health services (following up on the same groups' efforts attacking women's rights), shut down Army recruiting efforts using NASCAR (which has been fairly successful, especially in racing-crazy Southern states), and protect the rip-offs among vocational and tech schools that have been rampant since the early 1970's.
Last November, for those of you on the right here who love to chant, "We won, we won, read the election results," the American voters did NOT put the deficit or national debt among the leading concerns of the day. Nor did they care a whit at the time about abortion, states' rights, health care reform or other causes the GOP/TP has wasted its time chasing over the past seven weeks.
Recent polls, released this week, re-confirm election day exit polls:
So now the Tea Party is driving the GOP bus down avenues that only 22% of the voters endorsxe. That is a highway to hell for the Republican Party.
"Listen to the people!" the Tea Partiers chanted. And then they put on earmuffs over ear plugs. That's absolutely the case in Wisconsin.
It seems that the writers of this column, in addition to missing the Journalism 101 class on ethics, also missed the part of the class that covered the scoop- that Holy Grail of journalism.
The sitting president of the United States is fomenting labor unrest; indeed, inciting union workers to engage in illegal work stoppages. Yet, all the writers of this column focus on is how mean the dialogue has become.
Politico has the story. Read here
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49804.html
I guess we finally know what it means to have a community organizer for president: fiscal disasters, chaotic foreign policy, and labor riots.
Yep. I am sure that is what people meant when they voted for Hope for Change. WTF?!?!?
It was fascinating and revealing to watch Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner explaining President Obama's 2012 budget proposal and the Administration's 10-year blueprint for spending going forward in his appearance before U.S. Senators.
I learned that, over ten years, the plan would add $13 trillion in new gross debt; interest on U.S. government debt would rise to $844 billion annually by 2021 (for purposes of comparison, interest on the debt totaled $187 billion for FY 2009). To put that $844 billion interest on debt figure into further perspective, it amounts to about 23% of the $3.7 trillion total proposed 2012 budget...nearly one-fourth of the total proposed federal spending for FY 2012!
When pressed on the matter, Secretary Geithner conceded that the debt interest payments the United States faces are "unsustainable"...then went on to say that he knew of no alternative.
Apparently President Obama isn't sharing the recommendations of his National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform with members of the Cabinet.
First Read, get ready to print more and more stories like this one from Wisconsin.
See what happens when the money runs out? The people that feel they are entitled to it, that believe they have an absolute God given right to it, they will fight to their last breath to get it.
But what do you do when the money runs out? Now those workers have a right to, . . . . an empty bank account.
And this will be happening across the country. Obama used the 2009 stimulus money, not to stimulate the economy, but to pay off the state union employees for another year. States, rather than taking that time to get their economic houses in order, took that money and hoped the economy would recover enough so that they could continue their out of control spending. ObamaNomics failed though, and now the states are broke, and Republicans have been elected in many of them to clean up the Democrats messes.
And the Democratic legislators will run and hide from their sworn duties, the teachers will walk out on their students to riot, and the prison guards will leave their prisoners to fend for themselves. All because they don't want to pay a small portion of their pension and health care costs because they believe they are entitled to have the taxpayers pay for it for them.
Hey, look, you got scooped by the Washington Post, too!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/17/AR2011021707325.html
I have to wondernif fomenting labor unrest, and inciting illegal wildcat strikes, is considered a "high crime and misdemeanor".
Sure bears investigation.
Obama did term Wisconsin's actions an "assault" on unions. He also said so while admitting he didn't know or understand the details of the situation.
Kind the same thing Obama did with the Cambridge cop situation a while back. Shooting his mouth off first, figuring out the truth later, and spinning his message all they way through. Ignorance never stopped Obama from blathering.
And who is surprised by Obama showing his unmitigated support to the unions? He's bought paid for by them, the unions just pull Obama's string, and says what ever they want him to say.
RVZ:
Perhaps your memory of Kent State is clearer than mine. I stand corrected.
Every Body calm down, Jody, navy, Ron,
Lets not forget how unions got there start.
All the employees have to do is walk out, that all, the state will come to a grinding halt, with exception of cops and firemen.
If scott walker want to take away there rights, them they have the right to show him the power of the people.
SHUT THAT CHEESE FACTORY DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!
As much Sick and vacation time public employees get, i would instruct state employees not to march on the capital, but stay home for a week, then another week, the work 4 days weeks. Pretty soon once the state can't pay bills, can't have normal operations. Rookie Scott Walker will see its cheaper to renegotiate then take rights away!!!!
They have the power in numbers to shut the state down. No social services, make the managers of these department see how important the workers really are.
They can't fire everybody and we all know that the UNION will protect there jobs away right Steve, No Jo, Joanna,
What this is called is Blue Flu.
Joanna, read the links. He is doing a LOT more than simply making idiotic statements.
These wildcat strikes and protests were ORGANIZED by the White House. I posted a link last night, when the news first broke- there is more to the story today.
Is the White House also responsible for teachers busing students to these protests WITHOUT parental consent? Perhaps not- but they are certainly responsible for the illegal work stoppages.
This needs to be investigated. Now.
Well, Jeff, Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. You tell us to "calm down" but fair warning to those who discount what is happening. Nonunion jobs, wages, benefits will be next--Corporate Masters seek more profits. Get rid of the unions which set the standards, get rid of the competition.
John A;
I agree. You post lays it out plain and simple, thank you.
Jeff154:
Good points. "The power of the people" I like it. Have a great weekend.
Then in addition to trying to strip workers of their rights Walker is also guilty of lying to the residents of Wisconsin. A budget SURPLUS was claimed to be sufficient to give a tax break to businesses. When that tax break broke the bank Wisconsin Conservatives responded by attempting to strip workers of their rights.
The Wisconsin Republican Party is either incompetent or they lied to get tax breaks for business. They're either incompetent or they cynically set up an excuse to take money out of the hands of average tax payers and give it to the rich.
Which is it, incompetent or crooked?
Typical of FR to LIE. The bill in WI does NOT remove all rights to collective bargaining. That's BULLCRAP. What it does for teachers ONLY is remove the ability for them to negotiate a five-hour work day, make it possible to FIRE lousy teachers and base their pay on performance - NOT guaranteed step and seniority increase.
Why only teachers? First of all, it's NOT only teachers being asked to kick in for their bene's, it is teachers being asked to give up the right to negotiate GIMME GIMME packages that allow them to SUCK and still have a job. Second, the fire/police were exempted because they are responsible FOR PUBLIC SAFETY. Isn't the SINGLE most important job of the government, public safety?
But let's think about this for a minute:
About 12% of the nation's workforce unionized, and about half of that 12% works in the public sector.
In Wisconsin, about 300k of 5.6 million people work for the government in some capacity.
The governor of Wisconsin is asking them to pay HALF of what the private sector pays for health care and pensions.
Over the past 2 years, 8 MILLION people in the private sector have NO job while government employment has grown, gotten raises and enjoyed big fat FREE bene's paid for by the UNEMPLOYED private sector. And these people are kvetching about having to kick in LESS THAN half of their private sector counterpart's as a percentage for their benefits?
What a bunch of selfish, greedy bastids.
And they shut down the schools? They should be prosectued.
Why do some people think they should immune from the financial hardship that 88% of the country faces?
WHY IS THE MAJORITY ALWAYS SCREWED TO PANDER TO THE MINORITY?
Jody, Iowa
Well, Jeff, Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. You tell us to "calm down" but fair warning to those who discount what is happening. Nonunion jobs, wages, benefits will be next--Corporate Masters seek more profits. Get rid of the unions which set the standards, get rid of the competition.
Jody, reagan Fired the controlers because they struck, I'm not calling for a strike, I'm calling for the employees to use the benifets given to them to show the rookie he is playing with fire!!!!
After all they may want to use them before they loose them, Right!!!
I have a problem with people who see teachers as second class workers, you know, well if you can't get a real job, you become a teacher and it's your fault that you make such a low salary because you weren't smart enough to be a banker or a corporate lawyer. Uh huh. See, when you interview for these low paying teacher jobs, it's all about the benefits and pension plans compensating for the low pay. Yeah you could make more in the private sector, the recruiters say, but look at the great retirement and health plan. It makes up for it. Now, it's those very things that the budget cutters are after. So teachers are forced to quit and look for work somewhere else. Oh, conservatives say, that's fine, that's the marketplace setting limits. So we as a society are left with less teachers, all overworked, all underpaid, with less benefits so less take home pay. and more students with more needs than ever. Hmmm. And teachers are supposed to be like nuns or priests and work for less pay because they should do it for "the kids." How many conservatives in the private sector would take that crap at their job? Not many. Either teachers are professionals like doctors and lawyers and should be paid as such, or their work is not that important and education is a waste of time and gosh, who needs to learn anything except how to make money. But you need to go to school to learn how to read and write and do the math to make money, don't you? So who will be the new teachers in this hostile environment? Don't bet on it being the best and the brightest...
The situation in Wisconsin is not about cuts to wages and benefits, it's about an attack on the right to collective bargaining. Funny, the Tea Party claims to a band of revolutionaries fighting for freedom, but they deny the freedom of workers to organize. Authoritarian/anti-authoritarian, which is it?
It seems the url I referred to earlier disappeared. Trying again.
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Jody non-union workers already pay more in benefits. The fact is it us, the taxpayer, who is paying for their neighbors benefits and wages. What these neighbors want is to maintain their level of pay and benefits while the world around has changed. I do not blame unions for this. Their job is to gain the maximum compensation for the their members. What has happened though is the system of deferred compensation has come crashing to halt. The bill has come due and the money is not there. It is the responsibility of those politicians in the past who have left us holding the can. Unfortunately we cannot go back in time. Now, we must pay our way, and pay the bills of the past. Everybody, including teachers, police and fireman are going to have to expect less, just like we in the real world already have, and if President Obama was a leader then he would be out there in front explaining this.
And to the teachers who called a sick-out and then closed the schools today...there is 10% unemployment. I am sure there are a large number of the unemployed who have the education and real-world experience to teach. Lesson number one, nobody is indispensable.
I hope the teachers realize that they just caused many of the people who pay their wages to miss a days' work to stay home and look after the kids. Smart move!
Budget problems, fire and police protection will need to be cut.....the first order of business when talking about places to cut dollars. Use the lack of police and fire protection as a ruse to keep budgets. Ever wonder where dollars can be deleted from the budget while still keeping fire and police intact?
Here are a few areas where California can cut while still maintaining services, justg a few of our needless agencies funded by those crazy spending party fools in Sacramento:
These are all California State Agencies
California Academic Performance Index (API) * California Access for Infants and Mothers * California Acupuncture Board * California Administrative Office of the Courts * California Adoptions Branch * California African American Museum * California Agricultural Export Program * California Agricultural Labor Relations Board * California Agricultural Statistics Service * California Air Resources Board (CARB) * California Allocation Board * California Alternative Energy and Advanced Transportation Financing Authority * California Animal Health and Food Safety Services * California Anti-Terrorism Information Center * California Apprenticeship Council * California Arbitration Certification Program * California Architects Board * California Area VI Developmental Disabilities Board * California Arts Council * California Asian Pacific Islander Legislative Caucus * California Assembly Democratic Caucus * California Assembly Republican Caucus * California Athletic Commission * California Attorney General * California Bay Conservation and Development Commission * California Bay-Delta Authority * California Bay-Delta Office * California Biodiversity Council * California Board for Geologists and Geophysicists * California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors * California Board of Accountancy * California Board of Barbering and Cosmetology * California Board of Behavioral Sciences * California Board of Chiropractic Examiners * California Board of Equalization (BOE) * California Board of Forestry and Fire Protection * California Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind * California Board of Occupational Therapy * California Board of Optometry * California Board of Pharmacy * California Board of Podiatric Medicine * California Board of Prison Terms * California Board of Psychology * California Board of Registered Nursing * California Board of Trustees * California Board of Vocational Nursing and Psychiatric Technicians * California Braille and Talking Book Library * California Building Standards Commission * California Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education * California Bureau of Automotive Repair * California Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair * California Bureau of Home Furnishings and Thermal Insulation * California Bureau of Naturopathic Medicine * California Bureau of Security and Investigative Services * California Bureau of State Audits * California Business Agency * California Business Investment Services (CalBIS) * California Business Permit Information (CalGOLD) * California Business Portal * California Business, Transportation and Housing Agency * California Cal Grants * California CalJOBS * California Cal-Learn Program * California CalVet Home Loan Program * California Career Resource Network * California Cemetery and Funeral Bureau * California Center for Analytical Chemistry * California Center for Distributed Learning * California Center for Teaching Careers (Teach California) * California Chancellors 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THERE'S NOT AN OUNCE OF PORK HERE... Is it the same in your state?
The situation in Wisconsin, Amy, is a result of Obama deploying Organizing for America to organize the wildcat work stoppages and protests. They set up a phone bank, Facebook page, and organized the buses.
That is what community organizers do- and he has plans to bring similar activities to Ohio, Florida, and New Jersry.
I am pretty sure it is illegal, by the way, and hope that someone investigates.
It is another disgraceful display from a totally incompetent president.
Absolutely, Jeff. Teachers make MUCH less than the same level of education would in almost any other profession. Then we constantly demonize them for being "leeches", "lazy", and a bunch of other slurs. Then we put them in oversized classes with obsolete technology and old textbooks.
Then we wonder why our schools are only average among industrialized nations.
Your comment could not be m ore truthful and factural
I see that not everyone here is happy that there are people standing up for rights for workers that have been recognized for nearly 100 years. Thy're upset that Republican Conservative attacks on the rights of Americans aren't going unanswered. They're upset that people have the gall to complain at the continued GOPTP war on the middle class.
Too bad. Standing up for the rights of the average American isn't a crime, it's a virtue.
@John Have you seen classrooms in other countries that outperforming us? Maybe its just me but when I see pictures of the Asian classes they all seem to have 40 to 50 kids crammed in. They are rote learning which produces high scores. I don't see the banks of computers that I see in US schools. Ever think that you can actually learn by picking up a book. I don't know about you but I went to school in the 70's, in classes that were over 30 kids and seemed able to pick a fact or two. If teachers feel they're being under payed and demonized we live in free country, change job. Nobody is making them do it. I love this argument about how they could earn so much more in the private sector. Well what is stopping them?
To my Progressive friends. You guys hit the nail on the head today. Thanks
No one has the right to steal from someone else, and that's what the union's have effectively been doing to their members and the taxpayers in the case of public sector unions for decades.
I really cannot tolerate the "American worker" screed on behalf of 12% of the population, when 9% has NO JOB AT ALL and the ones that do have a job but have probably had to take a pay cut/hours cut or had NO RAISE AT ALL in three years have seen their state and local taxes skyrocket to pay for the pampered 12% to get their contractually guaranteed step increases, overtime, retire at 55 with an 80% pension, etc etc etc.
And I'm also sick and damn tired of the bullcrap "they serve the community for less pay".
A. They CHOOSE to work for the government, in whatever capacity. No one forces anyone in this country to take a job they don't want. If we COULD do that, many problems would be solved. And they don't make less, when you consider they pay NOTHING for their pension and health care. Those two items - planning for our retirement (at 67) and health care eats up about 20% of our budget, and we do NOT make 20% more than the average public sector employee.
PS, I AM public sector employee, and I'm disgusted by the union I'm FORCED to belong to as a condition of my employment. They steal $8 a paycheck from me to fund their ongoing efforts to guarantee that I work 4 hours a day doing ONE specific job, even though that job only requires about 2 hours of actual work. Yes, the union is STEALING from me, and the municipality that employs me.
B. They serve no one but themselves - and that's as it should be. However, they can SUCK AT THEIR JOBS and never get fired, STILL get their huge bene's and retire from SUCKING 10 years earlier than their private sector counterparts - WHO ARE FOOTING THE BILL!
If you can't see what is TRULY upside down about that, John B, I can't help you.
Most commenters here have no idea whats going on in Wisconsin. I've been there. Scott Walker recently gave huge tax breaks to Big corporations in Wisconsin. Including McDonalds, Walmart, and Apple. These cuts will cost the state 140 million dollars over the next year. What is the shortfall he claims? 137 million dollars.
He created the shortfall himself and then turned around to bust unions. Workers are willing to take the cuts, in fact they could probably deal with all the cuts he proposed for a few years until the deficit was dealt with. But he wants to break the unions, dictating out collective bargaining altogether. effectively destroying unions. These union busting measures have NOTHING to do with the budget deficit.
Wisconsin's form of the CBO finds that this will cost small business 1.2 Billion dollars over the next two years because the bill cuts all discretionary spending of 300,000 workers in the state. Nearly all the money being cut from these people's income, which is between 5 and 25% less than the private sector for the same work, would have been spent in state on business, who now have to cut back their employment because they are no longer generating the profit they could.
This bill is a small business killer. Walker simply traded out hard workers and hard working small business for a little extra change in big corporations coffers.
And to the dude who said that: Unions nowadays mainly exist to save the jobs of screw-ups and lazy, worthless, unproductive morons.
I went to school for 6 years to get a biology degree, a secondary biology and a secondary broad-field science teaching degree. I could have left after four years to work as a scientist but teaching was my calling. I've worked hard to attend the flagship Wisconsin University as a first generation college attendant and work hard every day for my students knowing they can do the same if someone gives them the attention and support they deserve. Then I turn around and do the same in the summer as a summer school teacher. Calling me and other teachers screw ups, lazy, worthless, unproductive and morons makes you look foolish.
Good point Jody. All the conservatives from Union-less right to work states who are venting their jealousy over the benefits of Union workers should watch out. Even though they plug their ears, shut their eyes and chant "la la la la" the Union's very existence protects what little rights they have left. Once the Unions are broken EVERY worker has a target on his back.
Further since the Unions are the ONLY groups that put forth any level of major money for progressive representatives (and even then they come in 5th) once their gone the US will be media locked into only one veiwpoint.
I have a Grandma mind but as I watched those students being interviewed yesterday, with no idea as to why they were there, I said a prayer for the teachers who brought them there that they had permission slips to take them into that unrest. What were they thinking? I hope they get to keep some of their money to pay for their lawyer.
ONE MORE LINK THAT DOES NOT BACK UP YOUR BILIOUS LIES, NO JO:
There are no "labor riots" in Wisconsin. For current events, visit www.Madison.com .
The President is not, at least according to the Politico story, "fomenting labor unrest." In fact, the article said he was rather late to the party. But support for the workers facing virtual disenfranchisment is an appropriate thing. There's a long history of White House actions both in support of and in opposition to union-employer confrontations - but you typically are absent from history class. You are merely a short-winded propagandist.
There was nothing in the story about "fiscal disasters," but that's your characterization of what in fact has been a VERY successful response to the fiscal disaster George W. Bush created and then left for others to face.
As for a "chaotic foreign policy," once again you just drop a little pile of poop and assume we'll all agree it looks better on the statue's head. President Obama has been very consistent and effective as the U.S. addresses popular movements for democracy and freedom in the Middle East. Of course, you don't really LIKE democracy and freedom, do you?
The ultra-right has no ethics, no principles, and no ideas. No Jo, you never get it right when you post links, maybe you should avoid that.
People can organize all they want, in to unions if they so choose. People can not work (strike) as they please. People can negotiate in good faith, and understand that may get want they want, or they may not get what they want, or they may only get a portion of what they want. When governments are involved with those negotations, people need to understand that elections have consequences, and politicians may choose to not agree with those people.
People do not have the right to tell others to pay their way though.
And people, if they don't like how they are being treated on their job, have the absolute right to quit and find something else to do.
no joe - i dont quite grasp why you are opposed to WORKERS HAVING RIGHTS and protesting what is happening.
So, here's a simple question for you - if tomorrow your boss came to all of the people you work with and said "ok, so here's the deal, tomorrow everyone is having their pay slashed by 20%, and you all have to pay 2x as much into your health care, and going forward you have no more right to "bargain" what any future wages will be. In fact, next year, we could just as easily say to you all that you'll be taking another 20% pay cut. Anyone who does not like this, you can go find a new job...hahaha...not like there are any out there. so good luck with that"
thats the world you want to live in, because this guy walker is setting that ball in motion.
I mean, if thats what you want --- for all workers (not just public sector workers) then, by all means, support this guy.
But, me as an average worker, who has seen pay freezes across the board, and having had to take furloughs, only to read every quarter that our "publically traded company" is earning higher profits every single quarter and how "ecstatic" our shareholders are...realizes EXACTLY what is happening here.
Im really sorry that you're too clueless to figure this all out.
It may also be affecting the schools funding from the state as well. I am not sure exactly how the school funding in Wisconsin works (maybe some one from there can chime in on this), but in many states, schools funding is based on attendance.
The state will set a specific amount that the school will receive per student per year. This amount is then multiplied by the attendance rate (percentage) in order to receive the amount of funding. If this is the situation in Wisconsin every day that these student are not in school is causing the schools to receive less funding.
To those of you that think Gov. Walker is simply doing his dutry to end fiscal problems that are wrecking Wisconsin - problems he himself created with an absolutely unjustifiable tax cut - here's the word from the front lines:
Analysis: Despite budget woes, Wisconsin less in crisis now than two years ago
Drop your ideological posturing and deal with the real world, righties!
@rconstant What friggin world have you been living in the last 3 years? We already have a target on our backs. Unions are irrelevant in the private sector. If we go on strike one of two things happen, one the company closes down or it moves abroad. DON'T YOU GET IT? Capital can move anywhere in the world in seconds and all your screaming is not going to change that. I'd love to hear a real world solution. Tariffs? Close the American economy? You tell me some practical solution to stop private companies from moving round the world. The difference with government is it can't move.
@Jessica
"
So, here's a simple question for you - if tomorrow your boss came to all of the people you work with and said "ok, so here's the deal, tomorrow everyone is having their pay slashed by 20%, and you all have to pay 2x as much into your health care, and going forward you have no more right to "bargain" what any future wages will be. In fact, next year, we could just as easily say to you all that you'll be taking another 20% pay cut. Anyone who does not like this, you can go find a new job...hahaha...not like there are any out there. so good luck with that"
thats the world you want to live in, because this guy walker is setting that ball in motion."
No Jessica this is the world we already live in. Wake up and smell the coffee. This why we maintain our skill set and market ourselves to employers. This is why we have to maintain our performance quarter after quarter. We have to constantly prove our value to our employer. Lets hear your ideas on how to change this.
JoAnna "People can organize all they want, in to unions if they so choose. People can not work (strike) as they please."
Even if the contracts these workers negotiated (and were agreed upon) are broken? So answer me this, if you are plumber and you go to someones house and you tell them "i'll fix your toilet for $100" and they say "deal" and you get 2/3rd through the job and the homeowner comes in and says "ive changed my mind, im only paying you $66 for this work"...
would you A) walk out on the job, leaving a broken toilet until she agreed to pay you what was originally agreed on or B) stay and finish the job and say "well, if thats what you say, ok"
I wouldnt agree with them protesting if the GOV had stated GOING FORWARD no contracts like these will ever be handed out, and all NEW HIRES must be under this new program and ALL CURRENT EMPLOYEES will never get another pay raise again...I could understand that. Thats within the power of an employer to say "thats it, we cant go any further"
But thats not what is happening here.
"People can negotiate in good faith, and understand that may get want they want, or they may not get what they want, or they may only get a portion of what they want."
Which is all well and good IN THE NEGOTIATING PROCESS but thats all been done and over with. IN fact, in the fall prior to his election, all the unions were sitting at the table willing to take a pay cut, willing to chip in more...and Scott Brown (who wasnt even elected yet) told them to end negotiations.
This is pure and simple UNION BUSTING. has nothing to do with budgets, otherwise the police, troopers and fire wouldnt have been excluded.
"When governments are involved with those negotations, people need to understand that elections have consequences, and politicians may choose to not agree with those people."
And yet, Mr. Brown is doing his best to write into law that no one following him can change the way the game is going, like he just did. So apparently, elections WONT have consequences going forward. Welcome to your new dictatorship.
"People do not have the right to tell others to pay their way though."
Um, they are doing a job in which they are paid for. What part of that dont you understand????
"And people, if they don't like how they are being treated on their job, have the absolute right to quit and find something else to do"
and in this economy thats just sooooooooooooooo easy, right? I dont even understand what planet you're living on if you think this is even CLOSE to our CURRENT REALITY. In good times, id agree...this is an option...but we arent in good times, we are in really bad times in which the few holding all the marbles are rewriting all the rules...and you, seem perfectly content with that, why?
John A:
Touche', game over.
Yep, the hard headed left and the hard headed right are about to plunge this country into a third world economy and civil war. You're BOTH flip sides of the same coin of extremist corruption. The decent people who work for a living don't have a chance when both sides are stealing their money and giving to the most worthless buttholes on the earth. That includes both the filthy rich and the dirt poor. I am sick and tired of the constant psychotic drivel from both sides. Anybody out there ever hear of balance?
I think I should start a thread on Skittle eating and watch the psychos argue over it. It might be revealing. Unfortunately, some stupid news agency would do an article on it, and one side would get legislators to make a law about it that we could never get rid of costing the taxpayer billions of dollars.
Don't get too excited.
Here is a quote from the article that you just posted. You must have not read far enough into it.
Looks like they still have budget problems. They may not be as bad as they were estimated to be for 2011, but the deficit balloons in 2012 and 2013.
One of the tax cuts that was passed was to encourage companies to hire employees. It would be a tax break for companies that hire more than 15 employees in a fiscal year.
http://wi.opengovernment.org/system/bill_versions/000/410/567/original/AB-3.pdf?1297975080
Thanks Onwisconsin for your feedback from the center of all this. It's important to keep in the front of this that the Wisconsin GOPTP created this crisis just to route more money to the wealthy while attacking the rights of workers. If they succeed in this which of our rights is next?
John A says: The Wisconsin collision highlights the inability of the ideologically-driven far right to distinguish its agenda, supported by a very small minority of voters, from the agenda of "the people."
Ideologically-driven far right? Amazing how someone from the left totally ignores the ideologically-driven far left agenda. Pot calling kettle black. I guess the left feels Obama's agenda is moderate. What pap!
The unions have taken advantage for far too long in this country. The left demonizes corporations for making profits, but fail to realize that stock holders of those corporations invest in them so their money grows. I guess this is something the left has no interest in. Really now? Unions have caused more corporations to take their business offshore because unions will never stop demanding more for their workers. The left claims that the right wants to take workers rights away from them. Again spin, spin, spin, and essentially nothing but lies. I've worked all my life without union support and I have the same rights.
What the left wants, and it's so typical, is more than rights. The left supports entitlements and government give aways to seemingly disadvantaged citizens. What the left also supports is the invasion from south of the border... taking jobs away from American citizens... Me thinks the left is screwy!
Question to the left: Who's paying for all your entitlement and give aways? Seems the rubber is meeting the road in Wisconsin. Goverment is broke - on the backs of entitlements and unions. Don't give me the garbage of 2 illegal wars (which is overused and old). The largest amount of our government budget goes to entitlement/social programs - the holy grail of democrats/liberals/progressives.
President Obama has to back the unions. Let him. He's against state governments trying to take control over any aspect of actual governing... something that is totally foreign to him. People are waking up and seeing how unqualified he is to do the job of President.
What puzzles me to this date is the way liberals think. They think the government has no limits on what they can give away. We shall see in the upcoming months as states become further and further in debt and Washington tries to handle the trillion dollar shortfalls created by liberals.
As we fall further and further into the abyss, liberals can look at each other with pride for their inability to see the big picture of what is happening and cackle about how it's all the conservatives fault.
Thank you lefty liberals for collapsing my post above. As I've said before, I consider it a badge of honor. It tells me I have nailed my point. Again, thank you.
no joe, no bo, nj
That is what community organizers do- and he has plans to bring similar activities to Ohio, Florida, and New Jersry.
I am pretty sure it is illegal, by the way, and hope that someone investigates.
It is another disgraceful display from a totally incompetent president.
INCOMPETENT!!!!
I remember learning about another community organizer that use these same tactics, your post is the same thinking a mayor from the segregated south said 45 years ago. what this man did was to turn dogs on children, beat women, jail children and the ultimate turn fire-hoses on people because in this southern city it was Illegal to assemble unlawfully, No Jo i see now your childhood Idol and mentor is Bill Connor, and President Incompetent Idol is Martin Luther King Jr.
you should be ashamed of your self!!!! you a Former teacher, you a mother and grandmother, you a Yankee from the north is endorseing Bill Connor and calling the president Incompetent for using tactics martin Luther King used!!!! WOW!!!!!
No Jo you have hit a all time low.
Hey i got it, why not More to the south and build a home where Bill Connor lives!! you and he are One in the same!!!!!
have a good weekend!!!!!!!!!!!! NO Jo Connor!!!!! Daughter of the anti civil rights movement.
Jessica, the unions were lied to by the government to get them to agree to those contracts. The tax revenue to support those contracts never existed, or was raided by the government and spent on other things. Everything worked fine, hands were waved and money borrowed when budget did not balance to support these programs. Now the states are all but bankrupt, their long term obligations to these contracts are unsustainable. The contracts in effect have been broken because there is no money to support them anymore.
And the workers have a right to be angry, but facts are facts. There is no more money.
I really wish people would bother to do the Research as to the History of the US Labor Unions.
1. The US Labor Unions of the Henry Ford Era were wiped out by the 1929-1939 Great Depression.
2. Prior to World War II, President FDR Suspended All US Labor Union Activities. During that time it was thought that the US Labor Unions were part of the "Italian Organized Crime". In retrospect he was right. As the US Labor Unions were Organized by the "Italian Organized Crime" gone legit (many of the Italian Godfathers did not want to get into other "Businesses" like Drugs and Prostitution (easier to get caught).). The "Italian Organized Crime" also started the US Insurance Corporations, like Arsonist "Tommy the Torch" selling "Business Insurance". Most of the "Italian Organized Crime" believed in what Mussolini and ally Hitler were doing, since Germany and Italy got out of the Global Great Depression (people literally dying from starvation) years before the US.
3. Prior to WWII President FDR also Nationalized all US Industry. While the US was shipping US Military "War Materials" to England before getting into the War At Europe (an Act of War). England was at War with Germany since 1939, and had set backs (loss of lots of Military Equipment) like loss at Dunkirk.
4. After the US entered the War At Europe, the US War Department conducted a Study to prevent the catastrophic accidents at the US Ammunition Plants/Factories. The Study strongly recommended a decrease in the work week to 40 hours per week, a certain amount of sleep, safety procedures, numbers of fire extinguishers, a fire department, etc.. Since US Industry was Nationalized by President FDR, this became Standard for all US Industry. It was NOT the later (after WWII) nor previous US Labor Unions that did this as they claim (propaganda). Later other concessions were made like getting the day off for Religious Worship (Sunday). The Jews demanded Friday and Saturday off for Religious Worship and received Saturday. Eventually this resulted in Saturday and Sunday off from work. Eventually, even concessions were made to make all wages equal at all the US Nationalized Industry (including for Women) this became the later Federal Minimum Wage (again not because of the US Labor Unions, as their Activities were Suspended by President FDR). You can get a copy of the US War Department Study (above) under the FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act), like I did (if I were at home not here (Afghanistan), where my copy is, I could give you the entire title, date, etc.).
5. During the US Military Invasion (Liberation, depending on your viewpoint) of Sicily, and Italy, the "Italian Organized Crime" (still believed in what Mussolini was doing) demanded and organized the US Labor Unions to strike to slow down the US Military Invasion of Sicily and Italy. President FDR states a National Emergency and orders the US Military Police (not National Guard) to stop the Strikes, with Deadly Force Authorized, resulting in the US Military Police machinegunning US Labor Union Strikers that got violent (deadly). Reference BBC Documentary. While living (stationed) at Germany and Italy while writing my Research Papers for Post Graduate Degrees I interviewed many survivors of WWII (that were young adults ("teens were considered as adults back then, as in their Military) during WWII, to get an idea of what happened at Germany and Italy). The Study of Military History/Science/Politics is job related as a US Military Officer.). Much to the displeasure of the College Professors my Research Papers were written like a Cornelius Ryan (I like his books and style of writing) Novel (including the detailed research, hundreds of pages just in the appendices.).
6. After WWII the President FDR Suspension of US Labor Union Activities was lifted. During this time the "Italian Organized Crime" took over the US Labor Unions in Full Force (financial backing, "muscle", organization based on the Italian equivalent of the National Socialist German Workers Party and "brown shirt" tactics, etc.). This has been chronicled by movies and books like F.I.S.T (1978), On the Water Front (1954), Last Exit to Brooklyn (1989), TV mini series American Justice: Target - Mafia (1993)(Jimmy Hoffa), Jimmy Hoffa (aka Hoffa)(1992), etc.. The US Labor Unions became a lucrative legitimate business for the "Italian Organized Crime", just like they started Las Vegas (eventually caught by the US Government for Tax Evasion, so the US Government ended up owning Las Vegas, including the "Houses of Ill Repute". Eventually everything was "contracted" out or sold to private corporations. Hint: "What happens in Vegas" does not stay in Vegas.). The US Labor Unions take the previous names (pre Great Depression, pre WWII) of US Labor Unions for Public sentiment, popularity and familiarity (smart move).
Back in the day. When I was assigned to US Military Training With Industry (TWI) at Detroit with a certain US Automaker. The car I was drove ended up with four flat tires (sliced), a broken windshield, and torched. I had driven the wrong brand of car into the parking lot (Ford parked at GM). What was really not so smart was that: 1. the car was a Rental, 2. Being a US Military Officer am a US Government (Federal) Employee. The Rental Agency started to put pressure on the UAW to turn over those responsible since they Lease vehicles from Ford, GM, Chrysler. Being a Federal Employee it is the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) that investigates the crimes committed. Eventually, those that did the crimes (fear as terrorism) were turned over by the UAW, and they testified that they were just following UAW Orders.
By the way I already stated in other Newsvine Forums (Topics) the Solution to Fix/Repair the Broken US Education System based on my firsthand experience with the Public, Private and International Education Systems. I will not restate it here, this post is too long, and I have to lead my men and women of my US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare Command Team plus one Support Team to the next location (commanders (US Military Officers) lead from the front, basic leadership 101).
One last thing, research who "Mr. Corporate America" is. (Hint he is NOT a Repugnant, think former Senator from Delaware (Demoncrap), Delaware Incorporation Laws, especially "Wall Street" as his major unlimited corporate campaign contributors and constituents.). If you still haven't figured out who "Mr.Corporate America" is, in 2010 he was fined $200,000.00 for violations of the McCain (yes, that one) Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Law (Act) before during and after the 2008-2009 Elections. Things are not always what they seem.
John, the article specifically dealt with Obama dispatching OfA to the Wisconsin labor protests- to organize buses, set up a phone bank and Facebook page.
I never said in my post that it dealt with the fiscal crisis- and you must never leave the temple if you do not know that we do, indeed, have a fiscal crisis. Nor did I allude to it containing information about Obama's incoherent, chaotic foreign policy. Again, it takes a true Obama worshippers not to see that.
Your nit picky, Alinsky attacks are getting increasingly more boring.
Those who read the articles will draw their own conclusions.
Isn't it fascinating that, in the age of the internet, politicians cannot hide their questionable activities? MSNBC may not cover this, but the information is out there- and most people read multiple sites!
And, no, media matters and think progress do not count as "multiple". They have site traffic that pretty much mirrors MSNBC viewership. That is to say, not much.
The people of WI are fed up with having one of the highest tax rates in the country. Schools and teachers are primarily funded through property taxes. In WI, the property taxes are through the roof. You can pay off your mortgage and still have a $600 a month payment to pay your taxes. And thats for a fairly modest home. Its rediculous. When the residents finally get to see what their property taxes are going to, which are the bloated unions, they promptly voted out the liberals who kept the status quo.
As a former Wisconsinite, I am proud of what Walker and Ryan are doing. While Illinois, their neighbor to the south, as opted to raise taxes by 67% to deal with their monstrous budget deficit. Wisconsin and its people choose to tackle the problems by voting in people that will do the dirty work, not just slap a bandaide on it and kick the can down the road. The business-friendly climate Wisconsin is attempting create will be a boon for the state when companies relocate there from Illinois and start the hiring frenzy. Like Christie said, when this is all said and done, you will thank me.
Alan, NJ
A lot of teachers DO decide to leave the profession and go somewhere else. That's why 50% of teachers leave the profession within five years. That way, they don't have to put up with condescending people like you.
US Navy Disabled Vet - retired much of what you and others say is true, but when you begin this talk of taxing the corporation more or arguing against cutting corporate taxes you lose the argument.
I am a registered democrat, a union member and a 27 year elected local union leader from New York, and can tell you that the more you tax companies the more they will leave the state and/or country. Furthermore, corporations really don't pay taxes they increase the price of what they produce/sell in order to cover the costs of taxes. Guess who ends up paying those increases in costs we do the American citizen taxpayers.
It's a never ending circle, as far as public sector Unions the same thing applies a lot of people will say the teachers don't make that much money, ha lets put the facts out on the table.
1. what are their yearly salaries?
2. what kind of health insurance do they get?
3. what do they receive for a pension?
4. at what age can they retire and how much will their pensions be?
5. who pays for the increases in the salaries, benefits and retirements for these publick employees?
Well Navy Vet it ain't the tooth fairy it's the taxpayers whose taxes contiunue to increase at an alarming rate!
All this nonsense about the education needed to fill these jobs is fine but what is the results of the endeavors. I say sorry look at the kids today they are not exactly well educated. They interviewed several of the kids who were at the protests yesterday and I would say that if they are an example of what the Wisconsin educational system is putting out we are in trouble. Not one kid could give a coherent explanation as to why they were there and what they were protesting against. The best one I heard was a kid say we gotta stop this 'dude' from doing what he is doing. He didn't have a clue or the respect that just because you may disagree with the governor you don't refere to him as dude.
Courtesy of the Collapse Cowards:
AZChzhd
As a former Wisconsinite, I am proud of what Walker and Ryan are doing. While Illinois, their neighbor to the south, as opted to raise taxes by 67% to deal with their monstrous budget deficit. Wisconsin and its people choose to tackle the problems by voting in people that will do it, not just slap a bandaide on it and kick the can down the road.
Former Cheese head, Illinois even with there tax increase we still have a lower income tax rate and coperate tax rate, tax are still lower in Illinois than chesse head land!!!!
As a Wisconsin resident who has work both union and non-union and currently work for a world fortune 200 company I applaud Governor walker and the others who support his ideas for Wisconsin has been blackmailed and raped by the teachers union for way too long. There is no job other than the teachers that can sit back on a piece of paper and collect the monies and benefits that they do and only working a partial of the year. I pay for health-care, i pay for retirement and I have to meet expectations day in and day out or I will be terminated and I can't cry and whine when something doesn't go my way because I will be told there's 10,000 people looking to replace me, I can't run and threaten blue flu and hold the tax payer hostageuntil my demands are met. Personally I think those Dummicrates that ran away should be removed from office, the teachers that called in sick should be fired and the unions should step up and admit they have been abusing the Wisconsin tax payers for too long and if they don't the Governor should fire every teacher and hire new with individual contracts and put on a merit system.
The TAX PAY-OR is tired of you Teachers and Professors raping us for what little you actually do!
Thanks JohnB! ;o)
No kidding Steve!
My daughter is a teacher and you would not believe the crap she has to put up with from the parents!
@Steve
How am I being condescending? If I walk off my job you think it will still be there when I come back? My current employer told me that there will be no COL raises because times are hard. What are my alternatives? I can either accept it or move on. If I work as a lawyer is that a respected profession (here in NJ they are not well liked). If I feel that others do not respect my work what can I do? I can change jobs or I can shut-up and get on with it. Tell me why are teachers special? I have two degrees and work in the private sector...so what? I don't expect people I meet to respect me because of what I do. I earn respect, or not, because of who I am as a person. Get over yourself.
No Jo, I called you out on your LIES about "labor riots" and "fomenting labor unrest." I stand by my post, and your feeble attempt at rebuttal just makes my point, instead:
You said there were labor riots in Wisconsin. You said the President was "fomenting labor unrest." The Democratic National Committee, which includes OFA as one of its arms, is actually the organization that dispatched the teams to help in Wisconsin. And as the article said, President Obama came to this party long after the "labor unrest" had begun in Wisconsin. And I even checked the current news at the moment to see when the "labor riots" had started. Nope, you LIED.
YOUR post brought up the other points, and as I acknolwedged in my comments, it wasn't discussed in the article. You LIED with your link to the article, which did NOT support your nasty cracks, and you simply smeared, twisted, manipulated, and mis-stated facts about the rest to suit your cesspool perspective of a fine President.
You can't even make a good rebuttal because you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
Jeff - from many posts ago, "...So who will be the new teachers in this hostile environment? Don't bet on it being the best and the brightest..."
Have you heard of Glenn Beck? He's even got a chalkboard to solidify his 'bona fides', ha ha
Would be funny if it weren't so sad,...
Or it could tell you that you are wrong...
Jeff
Not for long. What is the Illionois deficit? $13 billion??? When the tax hike kicks in, without making the necessary cuts Wisconsin is aiming for, the tax increases will just go toward more out-of-control spending and they will get nowhere. People shouldnt be an advocate of tax increases until the government proves it can watch its spending. Otherwise its tantamount to giving an alcoholic more liquor.
Remember the words of Winston Churchill. "People trying to tax their way to prosperity is like standing in a bucket and trying to lift it by its handles."
Now you're catching on John! You have summed up what the rest of us have been saying about her for years...
Scary part is, one of her many 'claims' is she's a school teacher - if she can't debate honestly on an anonymous blog can you imagine what she does in the classroom?
every time I read a blog from the so-called conservatives, I have to shake my head how stupid can these right wingers get? it seems in their attempts to uneducate this country with all their lies and hatred for obama, they're really making themselves very stupid along the way.
it is undeniable that president obama has put in a lot of effort trying to work with the repub party in order to save the american middle class. yet the repubs are too set on letting the corporation rule this country by eliminating the american middle class. I have not seen a single conservative making any attempt to really work with him. on the contrary, they keep attacking him more by the day.
"UNITED WE STAND". president obama has been trying so hard to unite with the repubs in order to rebuild this country. yet all the repubs want is to bring him down. the repubs don't care at all if they tear this country apart, drag it down to hell if necessary. all they care is to get their own way - controlling who can make big money and who can't even survive (no minimum wage but big permanent tax cut for the very rich), controlling who can love each other (no gay rights), controlling who can plan their own future (no abortion rights), makding sure their corporate buddies have total control of the country (no union negotiations), .... And this is not "BIG GOVERNMENT"?
btw, the teachers protesting has not stop teaching the children. they're teaching the children they will one day need to stand up for their own rights like they're doing now. it's not only in classrooms that they can teach the kids. kids can learn anywhere in anyway from anyone. also, teachers should not be the only ones responsible for the education of the kids, the parents must take an even bigger part in it. that's what parents should do.
if any government jobs should be eliminated, eliminate those congressmen, senators, governors, etc. who have done absolutely nothing to help the middle class, especailly those who promised that keeping the tax cut for the rich will create jobs! they said it loud and clear that this continuation of tax cuts for the rich will bring jobs at last november's election. if they are honest about it, they will not have to eliminate any government jobs! only the brain-dead will still believe whatever comes out of their mouths.
People need to wake up to the reality of what is going on in this country financially. We cannot wait 10 years and reduce spending gradually over time. It is now or never if you look at the negative effects of componding interest on a debt.
There needs to be drastic measures and they need to be implemented right now. Everyone's world will change dramatically if this is not done. The inconvenience of an increase in healthcare premiums will be minutia compared with what is in store for us as we rapidly approach a Third World status financially as a nation.
Wake up and smell the roses Sportsfans. The day of partying with the budget like it's 1999 are over. Governor Wlaker has introduced a much needed dose of reality. If only Obama would step out of his dream world and do the same.
Keep up the good work governor! Recommend that you hold special elections later on this month to replace all of the Cowards who left the state. They should be charged with dereliction of duty.
JS1 - here's where the money went? You're right others do not have a right to our money but some feel entitled:
http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/php/Federal-Loan-Data-Disclosure.html?searchFor=goldman
No BJ - Searchlight, Nevada ring any bells. Now you have a problem busing people in!
AZChzhd
Jeff
Not for long. What is the Illionois deficit? $13 billion? When the tax hike kicks in, without making the necessary cuts Wisconsin is aiming for, the tax increases will just toward more spending. People shouldnt be an advocate of tax increases until the government proves it can watch its spending. Otherwise its tantamount to giving an alcoholic more liquor.
You mention your a former Cheese head, why did you move, tax were too high, not enough job opportunitys, school system is not the best, the fact your are a former cheese head tells me you left. Illinois income tax rate was 3% now its 5% as a illinos resident i have no problem paying my fair share.
the reason for these protest is the Rookie is trying to take away basic rights given to workers years ago, if he would get the cheese out of his butt and just liston to the workers and RENEGOSIATE!!!! a fair deal this would not be happening, but no he want to prove to the cheese head that put the rookie in office that he is doing what they want. but at what cost.
I have never been a fan of teachers unions, or administrators, while we blame teachers lets look at there bosses, these are the money makers, there are the ones who are making the critical decision that affect our children. evanstion high school district supertendent makes 150k a year. but all you want to do is go after the people who don't make the money or decisions, cowards you are.
i say again blue Flu, use sick and personal time to send a statement, make the administrators do the hard work for a few days or weeks, make them give up money, but you can't there are not in the unions, and everything union is bad.
Really FR? It is exactly about budget cuts, and controlling future costs. It is also about the unions feeling that they are entitled to additional pay because they are a union. Where do they get the people that write for First Read?
Very small minority of voters? Did you not see any of the election results in November? Ok, I know, math eludes most liberals seeing how they think they can spend $10 when they have $1, but try and follow along. When someone has more votes than someone else, that is called a MAJORITY. "The people" voted for this agenda...I know, it doesn't fit your entitlement filled world, but this is what most of us that pay taxes wanted and support.
What rights of the workers are being violated? Is the working environment unsafe? Are they not compensated while injured on the job? Do they not have a right to unemployment when laid off or fired? Are they working for less than the mandated minimum wage? Do they have to work 70 hour work weeks involuntarily?
I don't have a problem with them doing their protests as long as the taxpayers aren't going to pay them to protest.
I do have a problem with elected officials leaving the state when there is a mandatory vote. Can you imagine the uproar if this happened when the democrats were pushing through ObamadoesntCare?
There would be a move to impeach every one of them.
MBeaty - maybe he shouldnt have given a tax cut to the super wealthy then huh?
Alan "No Jessica this is the world we already live in. Wake up and smell the coffee. This why we maintain our skill set and market ourselves to employers."
Trust me, im well aware of this. Every job ive ever had I needed to sell myself for any raise I ever got, no one ever said "we've watched how hard you work, and want to reward you" it's never happened. That said, i've not witnessed too many bad workers being fired, or having had their pay cut, or being demoted for NOT being a good worker - and ive only ever worked private sector jobs.
"This is why we have to maintain our performance quarter after quarter. We have to constantly prove our value to our employer. Lets hear your ideas on how to change this."
First, I think this is how it SHOULD be...I just dont think thats how it actually is. Im simply basing this off my personal experiences in the workforce, so naturally I assume there are some businesses out there that are operating with good management, that is kicking the crappy workers to the curb, or at least demoting them or cutting their wages for poor performance...and promoting/rewarding the hard workers. I just have never worked for a single one of them. In all of my experiences it's been the opposite - you get rewarded for becoming friends with/kissing ass of management, regardless of how hard you work (or dont work). The crappy workers never get fired, and if raises are given - they get the same as the hard workers. And the only thing the hard workers do get, is more work (since they do such a good job and are so dependable).
Anywho...I could go on about why I think the problem isnt with workers, but with management.
But, what does your point have to do with what the governor is doing? Why were police/troopers/fire exempt from all this? If what he is doing is right, surely those 3 groups shouldnt be treated "special" right? This is about the budget, right? Not busting unions...if so, then we need to add those 3 in...because 154 million against a 3 billion deficit, doesnt sound much like they are "tackling this budget issue". This is politics, and if you've heard Karl Rove speak this week, you know the game plan is out in the open - this is about ending the power those unions have, not just in negotiating good wages for good workers, but in having any influence in the elections. My hope is, even if Brown achieves his goal - that these unions will wake up and open themselves up for all employees to join, and form one massive union WORKERS UNIONS and we can all donate to them, so that our voices will continue to be heard in politics.
Thats why I believe ALL WORKING AMERICANS who arent in the top 10% of american wealth (which is you and me) must stand together for all workers rights. Because when we allow some americans to have their wages slashed, beyond whats fair, then expect it to happen to you...and expect no one to care when it does.
Do you think you and your family would do just fine, if your wages were slashed - despite being a really good worker? Not just this year, but for the next 5 years? (who's to say Brown isnt going to do this every year?) and if there isnt anyone else out there hiring, what choices will you have?
Where did he give a tax cut to the super wealthy? I have not seen anything about that. The only legislative action that I can find that was close to tax cuts for the wealthy was to change the taxation rules for HSA account holders. I would hardly say that this is just a tax cut for the wealthy.
What choices would we have? We would have the same choices that face the majority of non union workers in this country have already faced over the past 2 years.
We can agree on this part though :) This is a problem that faces many workplaces whether they are private sector or public sector jobs.
Sooooo.....what's wrong with having the government employees pay the same things that the private sector employees have to pay?
Oh....wait....they are only being asked to pay HALF of what the private sector employee pays. Gee....maybe this IS unfair. Oh....wait....who is being treated unfairly again?
Navy vet, Jody, anyone who wants to reply.
What if we got a law to pass that would prohibit eleceted officials from ever working in the pivate sector again?
My rational behind it is we pay these people to do a job which entails voting on the issues that effect the people of our country. Now if these officials are allowed to work outside of public service. I think we can all see the result of it. Lobbyists and any organazation that have money, corporations or unions can influence the votes of these elected officials.
Elected officials are set for life with pension and health care and I have no problem paying them for their service if they held office with reasons of holding up our constitution instead of securing their own future after public office. They would be more than welcome to stay in the public sector or work for a non profit organazation after their terms are up. After all like I mentioned before they already have health care and a pension set up. I think this might keep people out of politics who get into it for the wrong reason.
As far as collective bargaining agreements go. There are even people out there in unions that are sick of collective bargaining. They are sick of being paid the same wage as their peers who are just there to take advantage of working for a union. Just like any sector you have have employees who care about going to work everyday. Weeding the useless workers out of the union is not necessarily a bad thing. Many union workers would like to be evaluated on their own performance not the performance of the group as a whole.
JoAnna - of course the states are broke, its not rocket science...when less cash comes in, less cash can go out.
HOWEVER that is not the same thing as saying "we dont need to spend money on any of these things, or we cant spend this much on these things"
I dont get to say after I lose my job "im sorry Mr. Bank, I just cant pay that much for my mortgage anymore, you're going to have to take 1/2 that amount and like it!"
If we are being honest about all these states budgets, and our federal budget - then we have to admit THIS is what has to happen, we have to raise revenue - and revenues only come from AMERICANS, no matter how you slice and dice it. Whether its taxes, or raising costs on speeding tickets, or renewing tags...WE STILL PAY.
We all have to chip in more - and those who have the most, should chip in the most...and those who the least, could chip in the least...but we all should be chipping in.
So, im sorry but I dont believe this has ANYTHING to do with addressing the money issues..and has everything to do with politics at its worst. You can pretend all you want that Mr. Brown is doing great things, but 154 million against 3 billion...is a joke.
If i told you I was short $1000 every month, and in order to fix that I cut my $15 netflix bill...would you take me as seriously as you're taking scott brown and say "thats one great start!"?
Jeff
None of the above. I didnt have any political reasons to leave Milwaukee. I left when I was 20 because I hated the weather. I wanted to go someplace where I could play baseball all year round.
I didnt get into politics until around 2004 after Bush invaded Iraq. As a conservative, I was not happy with this at all. I was generally happy with Bush until then.
As for your comment, I agree with you about union management. But why are you using the examples of listening to the workers? What about listening to the taxpayers? After all the taxpayers are their bosses since they fund the public employees salary and pensions. Correct? You will say the public workers pay taxes too. But they pay their taxes with moeny they earned from my taxes. It appears the Walker and Ryan have broad support from the taxpayers with this legislation. I would say that is listening.
Joe-755363 - Your comment about "last election" unfortunately has set you up to be embarrassed. I had already addressed that in good detail above in post #1.11. I see now the Collapse Cowards have hit it, so I am re-posting. You are wrong, sir, about the election results, and my statement re a tiny minority of ideologues is entirely accurate.
The Wisconsin collision highlights the inability of the ideologically-driven far right to distinguish its agenda, supported by a very small minority of voters, from the agenda of "the people."
Joe in albany said, "Elections have consequences." Indeed, they do - and most particularly, they have consequences when the voters discover they were tricked and betrayed, as is occurring now not only in Wisconsin and several other states (Florida excepted, where Rick Scott is indeed keeping his word to the deep chagrin of both right and left), but also at the Federal level. Here are notes about the Friday budget debate projections in Congress:
The GOP/TP budget proposals range from reasonable to ridiculous. They will cost jobs, slow economic recovery, and of course weigh most heavily on the working classes. The cuts are not to block some imaginary "handouts" to lazy and undeserving people, they are ideologically-driven attempts to achieve goals the far right has pursued for decades.
For example:
An article on the budget debates also notes:
Translation: More ultra-right and fundamentalist religious pressure attacking reproductive health services (following up on the same groups' efforts attacking women's rights), shut down Army recruiting efforts using NASCAR (which has been fairly successful, especially in racing-crazy Southern states), and protect the rip-offs among vocational and tech schools that have been rampant since the early 1970's.
Last November, for those of you on the right here who love to chant, "We won, we won, read the election results," the American voters did NOT put the deficit or national debt among the leading concerns of the day. Nor did they care a whit at the time about abortion, states' rights, health care reform or other causes the GOP/TP has wasted its time chasing over the past seven weeks.
Recent polls, released this week, re-confirm election day exit polls:
So now the Tea Party is driving the GOP bus down avenues that only 22% of the voters endorse. That is a highway to hell for the Republican Party.
"Listen to the people!" the Tea Partiers chanted. And then they put on earmuffs over ear plugs. That's absolutely the case in Wisconsin.
AZChzhd
I didnt get into politics until around 2004 after Bush invaded Iraq. As a conservative, I was not happy with this at all. I was generally happy with Bush until then.
I know the mothers and wife's of the 4000 dead in iraq are happy your were not longer just unhappy with Bush, you should have been appalled!!!!! the same as the vietman mothers were when another wild Politican from texas caused us to loose 58 thousand!!!!
but we were all sucked by that snake oilman from texas!!!! including me!!!
M Beaty "What choices would we have? We would have the same choices that face the majority of non union workers in this country have already faced over the past 2 years."
I'm interpreting your response as this: Big Business has been screwing american workers for the past 2 years (acutally past 30, but who's counting) and have been doing their best to destroy this nation so that they can personally reap insane profits...its about time that our govt treat its workers the same! If I, as a private sector employee can work extremely hard for my employer and be part of their reason for their insanely huge profits and then have my wages slashed with no choice, well, the only right thing to do is to ensure ALL WORKERS are treated this way...i mean, itd be stupid for all us workers to ban together, demand fair wages and treatment, and work together towards creating & sustainging an America that is the Leader of the FREE world.
Is that about right? Let me know where im off base...or why im just too stupid to "get it" that its really good for 90% of americans to have 10% of americans holding 90% of the nations wealth, and thus, power.
Ya know that whole notion of a govt for the people, by the people, of the people...might as well just scratch that and say "for the rich, by the rich, of the rich"...cuz the rest of us, will have little to no voice soon enough. Democracy, the very thing Egypt and other middle eastern countries are striving for, is smoke and mirrors...or at least, it is when the populace gets dumbed down enough to the point that they support people hell bent on destroying them, enslaving them, and you still have the smile on your face the whole time saying "well, what choice do we have".
none, just the way you like it, i guess?
Collective bargaining is a privilege granted by law, not a right granted by birth, citizenship or anything else. Approximately 40% of the states in our union have survived just fine without collective bargaining for their state employees. It is a social experiment that has proven unsustainable for the taxpayers. Walker's bill expands the protections for state workers. It gives individuals the right to decide whether to pay union dues or not. It gives individuals the right to vote for whether they wish to remain unionized or not. It gives taxpayers the right to decide whether salary increases above cost of living are warranted or not (6% raises to the largest district in the state for turning out one of the nations lowest success rates simply because they expect taxpayers to accept tax increases to fund them hardly seems reasonable). It does not touch the level of health care offered state employees. It does not touch the vacation and sick pay policies they've already contracted. It promises the removal of forced furlough days that were put in effect by our last administration to close the budget gap. It allows all state workers to KEEP THEIR JOBS instead of forcing 6000+ layoffs to close the budget gap. And interestingly, the only group protesting, at least in mass, is the teachers union. The other 200+ thousand state and municipal employees have been at work doing their jobs for the people of our state. Why do the "rights" of 98,000 members of the teachers union trump the needs of the other 5+million people in the state of Wisconsin?
The USA has a lot of big challenges on their plate and people on both sides of this issue who continue to look back at how things have been are going to keep up going down the slope we have been going down for a while now. Argue a lot, change little, and keep saying everything will be ok.
We really need to work together and solve the issues as one country and that means both sides will need to give. Things are changing fast in the world and we need to compete, if we want to continue leading. This is a great country and I have not doubt that we will figure it out eventually, but how much pain are we going to put on future generations if we don't all agree (soon) that some things need to change and then work together to figure it out.
Jeff...geez, what did I say?? I said I was not happy with it. Not happy is the opposite of happy. I did not agree with it. I was happy with Bush before he invaded Iraq. I was NOT happy with Bush after he invaded Iraq. Is there a comprehension problem with you, or what?
You know, if you want to argue the logistics, go back to 1998 when Clinton passed the Iraq Resolution Act citing the need to remove Saddam from power. Read what liberals like Kerry, Kennedy and Clinton had to say about this. Then come back and argue about this being solely a Republican war.
Suzy - I think I would 100% agree with everything you said if this was about closing the budget gap, but its not...otherwise the police/troopers/fire wouldnt have been excluded from this. The focus here is on busting the unions - now, perhaps you dont WANT to believe that, but Karl Rove has been on TV this week talking about it, so its not secret - this is the idea. If it falls in wisconsin, it'll fall across the nation.
i'll say it one more time...154 million against 3 billion, isnt doing much.
as for you final comment about who's rights trump who's...thats an interesting question isnt it? look at egypt...are you going to tell me that the several thousand folks demanding democracy are speaking for all egyptians? Given what you've said, Mubarak should never have stepped down...should have demanded the people go home and shut the hell up. Because, after all...if more egyptians really stood with those protestors, well...they'd be standing with them right?
Unless, of course, they have jobs they dont want to lose...i bet you forgot about that huh?
Suzy,
Because people don't get it on newsvine. To busy fighting things straight down "party" lines. People post based on defending their party instead of what makes sense. If anyone here completly agrees with whatever either party campaigns for you are in LaLa land.
Just the fact that each party has a platform that they think is the ideal world says it all.
Everyone is created equal in the sense of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This is true and our fundemental rights.
However we are certainly not created equal in respect to how we think and act. That is a learned behaivior over time. Not being able to understand another point of view is what keeps us from building common ground and ending the "I am right you are wrong period mentality.
I believe a lot more people here would agree on more issues than they think if they really thought about it. Left or Right. We need to listen to people instead of trying to silence them with snide remarks. They key in that is forming another party that actually does think like the majority of America. Instead of fighting among each other based on two thoughts. Those thoughts need to come together.
Suzy, you might have a leg to stand on if the GOPTP hadn't just created this emergency out of whole cloth by cutting revenue enough to provoke a budget crisis.
As FR pointed out, the politics also obeys the rules of physics. If Wisconsin Republicans didn't want an uprising with their workers they shouldn't have treated those workers with utter contempt.
Well, I guess it is just a matter of perspective and your own personal attitude. I have days that I hate my job and my employer. I have experienced drastic pay cuts over the past 2 years, but guess what...I still have a job. If things got really bad, I could look for other employment. At the end of the day, I still make a good living and know that I will have a job to go to in the morning.
Good times can not last forever, you have to adapt and overcome in the times that are bad.
Well said, Jessica! I completely agree!
so Obama busses in people....to do what exactly?
John, the surplus people keep trying to sell IS A MYTH. There is not, was not nor has been a budget SURPLUS in this state in years.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2010/nov/29/jim-doyle/gov-jim-doyle-says-wisconsins-projected-budget-sho/
uhmmm...no they aren't. Where in wisconsin is there a 10+% sales tax? Property taxes in IL are up 20%. Income tax just increased 67%.
Why? Because this is one of the heaviest organized labor states in the country. Our pension liability is staggering, our debt is going to bankrupt this state right behind California. Illinois pays road workers $50-68 per hour. These aren't college grads...they are union leeches.
Oh, and we have some of the worst roads in the country.
So 7.1% of the population are union public employees. Where is this majority that the republicans aren't listening too? They are a special interest group and their needs and wants should not interfere with the greater good of the other 92.9% of the public.
“Well you’re either with us or agin us”
Seems like that hoary old catch phrase and the attitude that goes with it is being recycled by the same folks that used it in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. Except this time we aren’t talking about old Saddam and his supposed WMD’s and his supposed ties to Al Qaeda. No folks we’re talking about America and Americans this time.
I’m pretty sure that we all know the drill by now;
We’ve ginned up an artificial enemy here and if you don’t join with us to fight him you must be agin us.
This is an evil insidious enemy that can’t be trusted in any way and the only choice we have is to carry the fight to him over there and if you don’t want to fight your agin us.
We’ve manufactured this enemy so we’re the only ones that know how to deal with him and if you don’t agree with our methods your agin us.
If you question us you must be agin us
He’s the enemy for goodness sakes he doesn’t have any rights. If you aren’t willing to give up some of your rights so that we can deny him his then you must be agin us.
If you’re not with us then you must be Unpatriotic, UnAmerican and generally of such low Character that you must be agin us.
When such Foolishness was fostered and propagated to invade a country whose only sin turned out to be that they were the most likely candidate to fulfill the enemy role for the Yahoo Casting Director’s I was agin it. Still am. It was a mistake then propagated by Fools to appease Fools.
Judging by all the signs coming out of Madison, several other States and the Halls of Congress some Folks have decided that the enemy is not in the Middle East and isn’t Muslim. Lo and behold the enemy is right here in America. It’s those folks living right down the street. You know the one’s that you see down at the Diner of a morning grabbing their cup of coffee and fried egg sandwich on their way to work. You know the one’s whose sons and daughters go to school with yours and you’ll all cheer for at the baseball or soccer game down at the park on Saturday.
Any time you follow a policy or take an action propagated by Fools to appease Fools you are making a Grave Mistake.
Reckon I’m agin it. Again
Great post, IR. The GOP always creates a enemy to be feared. After succeeding in reducing private sector collective bargaining, their current goal is to do the same to public sector collective bargaining. Their goal is to destroy unions completely. Sadly, too many conservatives believe the anti-union, demonization of union rhetoric of the past 30 years and fail to see the avalanche headed toward their nonunion jobs. If the GOP succeeds, every worker's wages and benefits will be impacted and not for the good of those workers.
IR and Jody;
Nice way to end another weird week. The unions are not the blame for everything that is wrong with this country. Again the GOP/TP just will not come to the realization that they are the ones that created this mess in a large part with the failed agenda of the previous administration. Again, they blame everybody else for the problems they created and then want to do the same thing again. These people have NO shame and lost their moral and ethical compass a long time ago.
Good Morning IR.....very good post. The GOP/Tp mantra for the paranoids, FEAR is our friend. I'm beginning to think, the conservatives are a party of paranoids. They all need a little sunshine in their lives.
GM:
I think you may be on to something. These guys are over reaching and if they are not careful it will bite them in the end.
IR, you come from a state where unions are central to the communities, the workplace, and daily life. Bitter and bloody battles to protect coal miners from crushing oppression and exploitation finally brought a better way of life to folk across the hills and hollers of West Virginia. You have a clearer perspective than most Americans do about the importance of unions and the price of their success.
In the 1930's at the height of the Depression, my Grandfather was Jefferson County chairman of the Democratic Party in Kentucky (later state chairman after WWII). Every Sunday afternoon, while the family dinner was being prepared, out on the front lawn gathered a great crowd of men, all hoping that they could get a state, county or city job - many of which as political patronage posts were in the gift of my Grandfather. One of the things Grandfather did in succeeding years was successfully back public employee unions' efforts to take those jobs out of the hands of the party bosses.
Public employee unions have worked hard to eliminate undue and improper political influence in hiring, protect women's rights on the job, and maintain standards of performance.
Of course, unions have also striven to improve the wages and benefits of their members, whether in the public or the private sector. It is their duty to do so. To those anti-union commentators, let me say that complaints about union efforts to serve their members are utterly ridiculous.
The present assault by the right aims at literally every facet of the working people, whether union-busting, tax rates and minimum wage levels, access to health care, cheese and milk for hungry mothers and babies, Head Start for pre-schoolers in disadvantaged families, and so much more.
The Wisconsin union assault will have zero effect on budgets and deficits - none whatsoever. It is purely another way that the ultra-right pursues a long-cherished agenda of tearing down what Americans spent so many decades, with blood and treasure, to build up.
IR, you said it better than I could have dreamed.
If the enemy are people who look just like me, what's to stop me from suddenly being made the enemy?
Interesting opening op ed Navy.........well written, not entirely acurate, but interesting.
The fools you refer to are are the radical right wing conservative EXTREMISTS,who are hell bent on destroying the AMERICAN DREAM, THE BILL OF RIGHTS, and the US CONSTITUTION, so they can control everything!!!
JohnB..... These words come to mind:
First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Trade Unionist
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me
Pastor Martin Niemoller (1892-1984)
Great post.....now look in the mirror!
GBM - I remember that quote quite well, it was used extensively in political debates in the 1960's. There's another one, paraphrased from "A Man for All Seasons," by Robert Bolt (1960 Pulitzer Prize for a play):
Thomas More, upon hearing his son-in-law plead that More abandon his principles to save his life in the confrontation with Henry VIII:
"So, you would have me cut down every tree of law and principle in the forst in order to pursue the Devil?"
(Son in law:) "YES! Yes!"
(More:) "And then, when the Devil turns to attack me, where shall I take refuge? How shall I hide?"
We have fought without rest for decades to build a more just, more safe and clean, more promising America than the uncontrolled, Wild West version from which we sprang. We have indeed pursued the "Devil" of greed, corruption, unbridled self-interest, cynical exploitation, and sometimes brutal oppression - not only in politics, but also in business, community life and at times in our international relations (not so determinedly in diplomacy, sadly).
Those who in their zeal to achieve their own political objectives cut down the trees of principle, the trees of equity and honesty, of humble respect for others' rights, of dignity and justice, those who chop down those trees will indeed have no refuge when the demons of influence come calling. Nor will those metaphorical lumbermen be safe when voters once more decide the time for an accounting has arrived. if the national "forest" has been razed, and there are no results worth counting for it .....
John A., thank you for an inspiring post.
The Dems were in charge of the state of Wisconsin before the November elections, not the Republicans. Do not fall prey to socialist propaganda when it comes to this issue. It is about the reality of what a public servant should be paid, given the huge hits that the private sector employees and the unemployed have taken over the past two years.
The public sector union is not being realistic in terms of their expectations and they are now being challenged by a State Governor who knows what needs to be done.
No, TC, it is about a Governor that wants to break the contract with the unions making it something that HE deems palatable.
Why would the unions just 'sit there and take it'? The unions and the municipality AGREED on what the compensation package(s) are. The Union is fulfilling its part of the deal.
Why isn't the Governor upholding HIS part of the deal?
When the current contract runs out, THEN the deal can be changed - not before.
This is also about honesty, TC, and there's nothing honest about a Governor who would give away a budget surplus AND MORE in order to provide an excuse to steal the rights from workers.
AND THAT'S THE WAY IT IS......this week. Common Cause and the NY Times called attention to the possible conflict of interest of Justices Thomas and Scalia who attended secret Koch Brothers meetings and then voted yes on Citizens United declaring corporations are people and unleashing powerful, massive and undisclosed campaign financing by wealthy, corporate special interests.
Speaker Boehner declared that if spending cuts cost jobs, "so be it". Thursday he attempted to remove his foot from mouth and instead added a second foot by declaring "READ MY LIPS, we're going to cut spending." Exit stage right where Boehner remarked he couldn't believe he just said that.
Karl Rove commented on FOX that the GOP goal is to diminish union membership which would mean democrats lose--well, what do you know. Rove told the truth for once. His goal is more achievable with the help of the right-wing Justices and Citizens United, much more powerful Corporate Masters than unions ever could be.
Kansas GOP Attorney General Phil Kline may be disbarred for the illegal tactics he used to promote his anti-abortion agenda. Good, using illegal methods for personal views should be punished accordingly; a little jail time might be in order as well.
Boehner and the GOPTP plan huge cuts to education, food programs, food inspection, PBS, NPR, IRS, and dozens of other services to save money BUT Boehner refuses to cut tax payer subsidies worth billions given in the form of tax breaks to big oil--the most profitable industry ever. Exxon Mobile made $45 billion in 2008 and $19 billion in 2009. Speaker Boehner, WHY should taxpayers who purchase gas give Big Oil even more cash than we already do?
Governor Christie is described as straight forward and articulate--apparently conservative pundits and analysts find "bully threats" aimed at middle class workers a plus.
A Missouri State senator has introduced a bill that would END child labor laws in that state. No doubt child labor could be used to break strikes and lower wages for all Missouri citizens!
Iowa House Republicans, facing a reasonable budget shortfall, passed legislation cutting incomes taxes by 20%. Apparently, they do not care that next year they will face an additional $700 million budget shortfall as a result. They claim the cuts will create jobs and improve Iowa's economy--perhaps they should ask former President George W. Bush how that worked out for him.
Glenn Beck is upset--how dare Wisconsin workers protest; how dare they chant "kill the bill"; it's an Islamic, communist, socialist, Nazi, union calliphate. Rewind: weren't Tea Party protesters chanting "kill the bill" the day HCR passed? Wasn't that Michelle Bachmann, Steve King and a couple GOP pals standing on the House balacony chanting "kill the bill"? Who knew...the GOPTP was part of an Islamic, communist, socialist, Nazi, union calliphate!
Karl Rove declared that "birthers" are the result of an Obama conspiracy to divide the republican party. And they call this guy "Bush's brain". Turdblossom really is more accurate.
Sarah Palin told a group how she would fix entitlements with "common sense, constitutional, capitalistic free-market" you know, ways. Do her listeners ever understand what the heck she says? When asked about a Government shut down--"let it be, for a week or two." Exit stage right to join Speaker Boehner.
Minnesota's Governor solved that state's budget shortfall easily--he raised taxes on the high income earners by 3%. Voila, crisis solved and those people will barely notice the difference in their incomes.
Cairo West to America. Thousands of Wisconsin and Ohio citizens, workers, students protest, march and storm State Capitols to demand their rights, too. For nearly 30 years, the middle class workers have been sacrificed on the altar of big corporate business. Middle class incomes have declined, they pay higher percentages of their benefits. They have given concessions to balance budgets and prevent layoffs of people providing services to all citizens and while doing so the coffers of a few have grown substantially.
Since Ronald Reagan began this madness, I have wondered when or if American workers in this country would rise up and say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore." This week those middle class Americans are saying to Governor Walker and Governor Kasich and any others who try: ENOUGH, NO, NOT THIS TIME. Bravo! It is about time workers in America find their voices and demand their rights!
"voted yes on Citizens United declaring corporations are people"
__________________________________________
That may be the thinkprogress or mediamatters talking point line, but, it's certainly not the truth.
The Supreme Court Citizens United decision was based on a very simple, factual reading of the actual words in the First amendment which says "Congress shall make no law.... abridging the freedom of speech,"
As much as the lefty liberals wish for it, the First amendment does NOT say "Congress shall make no law.... abridging the freedom of speech except for any entity that lefty liberals would like to muzzle,"
Citizens United was decided correctly based on the actual words in the Constitution. If the lefty liberals don't like that, then they should use the Constitution's Article V - Amendment. Until then, stop whining.
You are wrong, Joe. The Citizens United case went far beyond "free speech" rights to show a movie and undid over a hundred years of decisions that protected people's voices in determining elections and in preventing special interests from buying elections. Believe what you do at your own peril, it's your democracy, too. Making a comment is not whining.
Article III.
Section. 1.
The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.
Section. 2.
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State,--between Citizens of different States,--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
__________________________________________________________
Hey Joe How about perusing that section up there and point out to me the actual language that empowers the Supreme Court to decide what is Constitutional or not for the other Branches.
Jody:
Kudos, right on. I just love the facts.
Jody:
I agree.
The "Citizens United" decision had nothing to do with the First Amendment. The GOP cloaked their agenda in the First Amendment to try and hide the fact that they sold America out to the highest bidders both Foreign and Domestic. That was and is their agenda and has nothing to do with the First Amendment.
The Supreme Court and Judicial Review
Judicial Review
The Supreme Court of the United States spends much, if not most, of its time on a task which is not delegated to the Supreme Court by the Constitution. That task is: Hearing cases wherein the constitutionality of a law or regulation is challenged. The Supreme Court's nine Justices attempt to sort out what is, and what is not constitutional. This process is known as Judicial Review. But the states, in drafting the Constitution, did not delegate such a power to the Supreme Court, or to any branch of the government.
Since the constitution does not give this power to the court, you might wonder how it came to be that the court assumed this responsibility. The answer is that the court just started doing it and no one has put a stop to it. This assumption of power took place first in 1794 when the Supreme Court declared an act of congress to be unconstitutional, but went largely unnoticed until the landmark case of Marbury v Madison in 1803. Marbury is significant less for the issue that it settled (between Marbury and Madison) than for the fact that Chief Justice John Marshall used Marbury to provide a rationale for judicial review. Since then, the idea that the Supreme Court should be the arbiter of constitutionality issues has become so ingrained that most people incorrectly believe that the Constitution granted this power.
http://constitutionality.us/SupremeCourt.html
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Hey Joe Being a nice guy and a general fine human being I’ll even give you the proper answer to the question
Hey Joe How about perusing that section up there and point out to me the actual language that empowers the Supreme Court to decide what is Constitutional or not for the other Branches.
_____________________________________________
It was established in an 1803 case named Marbury v Madison:
The justices held, through Marshall's forceful argument, that on the last issue the Constitution was "the fundamental and paramount law of the nation" and that "an act of the legislature repugnant to the constitution is void." In other words, when the Constitution--the nation's highest law--conflicts with an act of the legislature, that act is invalid. This case establishes the Supreme Court's power of judicial review.
Good Morning Jody, great post. You got it all there. I keep thinking Thurgood Marshall must spin in his grave at the antics of Clarence Thomas, his supposed replacement,which is an insult to the great Justice Marshall.
The Citizens United case went far beyond "free speech" rights to show a movie and undid over a hundred years of decisions that protected people's voices in determining elections and in preventing special interests from buying elections.
____________________________________
As did Brown v Board of Education. Are you saying that decision was wrong because it "undid over a hundred years of decisions"??
BTW, do you consider unions spending millions to elect Dems "special interest buying elections"?? Because Citizens United applies to them also.
"The "Citizens United" decision had nothing to do with the First Amendment."
__________________________________________
Did the constitutional law experts at thinkprogress and mediamatters tell you to say that?
Just more lefty liberal wishful thinking.
LMAO!!!!
Thomas Jefferson to Spencer Roane
6 Sept. 1819 Works 12:135--38
In denying the right they usurp of exclusively explaining the constitution, I go further than you do, if I understand rightly your quotation from the Federalist, of an opinion that "the judiciary is the last resort in relation to the other departments of the government, but not in relation to the rights of the parties to the compact under which the judiciary is derived." If this opinion be sound, then indeed is our constitution a complete felo de se. For intending to establish three departments, co-ordinate and independent, that they might check and balance one another, it has given, according to this opinion, to one of them alone, the right to prescribe rules for the government of the others, and to that one too, which is unelected by, and independent of the nation.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_18s16.html
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Being the exceedingly fine fellow that I am I will even save you the trouble of trying to find out what was The Founder’s intent that you’ll strict Constitutionalist’s want to rely on.
If massively funded ad campaigns can convince consumers to buy Lucky Charms cereal, which tastes like cardboard and is unhealthy to boot, for their kids, then massively funded political ads can convince voters to cast ballots against their best interests. There is too much money from undisclosed sources influencing our elections.
The Maine Commission on Governmental Ethics and Election Practices, made up of two Democrats, 2 Republicans and one Independent, just levied the highest fine in Maine history on the Republican State Leadership Committee based in Virginia, for campaign finance report violations. The group spent about $400,000 in five state Maine Senate races during the final weeks of the fall campaign, and failed to properly report the spending. The vote to fine the out of state Republicans was unanimous. Maine protects the transparency of funding in our political process.
Citizens United certainly wasn't about speech, it was about money. Previous to Citizens United anonymous money given to politicians was commonly defined as "bribery." Now it's fiercely defended by Conservative Republicans as "speech".
Hard not to see that as an attack on language.
Navy, IR. Great job with the facts. Citizens United also included unions as people, too. In my view, this is exactly why the GOPTP is now more openly targeting unions.
Did the Constitution intend to give Corporations the same rights of free speech as people? No, because corporations cannot think, breathe or otherwise behave as people, they cannot vote; and they cannot speak as one voice because they are many voices. Do they have rights to advertise? Yes, but if they are advertising for or against legislation or for/against a candidate, citizens have the right to know who is supporting that position or person--full disclosure. That's where the right-wing activist Supreme Court Justices really got it wrong; however, that was also those justices intent, undermine the many people and give the power to the few.
REALLY UNINFORMED POST.
Matter of Public Record. Think MOTIVES while doing the Research.
"Mr. Corporate America" (former Senator from Delaware (Demoncrap), most Corporations Incorporated at Delaware, especially "Wall Street" (Fortune 500) has his people brief (Legal Brief) the US Supreme Court, pertaining to Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions received prior to, during and after the 2008-2009 Elections, for the US Supreme Court to Rule otherwise would invalidate the 2008-2009 Elections for violations of the McCain (yes, that one) Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Law (Act). After the US Supreme Court Ruling, decriminalized parts of the McCain Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Law (Act) he admitted his violations and was fined, 2010, $200, 000.00.
"Mr. Corporate America's" major unlimited campaign contributors and constituents are (I warned all of you about him years ago. So now the sh!t happens, I told you so.):
The list is important because in order to obtain January 2009 Electoral College Votes in time the November December 2008 Billion USDs Bailout had to be passed by the Demoncraptic Party Controlled Congress as Time Sensitive (no Public Scrutinty). Your "Popular" Vote does not determine the President and Vice President of the US, the Electoral College Votes do.
The Billion USD Bailouts do not pay for the 60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis" consisting of the "Banking Crisis", "Mortgage Crisis", "Fianancial Crisis", "Credit Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis", etc. as caused by the removal of the Glass Steagall Acts that make legal the Causes. The Chinese retained their version of the Glass Steagall Acts as to why they are continuing to prosper without the threat of a Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction wiping them out like Greece.
PLEASE !!!! DO THE RESEARCH.
Jody, I know I'm wasting my time with this question, but it has to be asked:
What part of this simple phrase in the First amendment do you not understand "Congress shall make no law.... abridging the freedom of speech,"??
It seems to me that the phrase is so simple that nobody could misinterpret it to mean that Congress CAN make a law abridging freedom of speech like McCain Feingold did. You may not like the decision, but, that doesn't mean it is legally/constitutionally wrong.
Joe, the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech to individuals.
The Citizens United case seeks to define corporations as individuals because corporations are formed of individuals.
A corporation is NOT an individual. Pitting you and me against a corporation as equals is NOT what the Constitution intended. No matter how you try to spin it.
The case of Santa Clara vs. Southern Pacific Railroad, 118 U.S. 394, established corporations as "persons" in 1886.
 vote
Pietro:
Correct. I never said that the main HCR legislation was passed via reconciliation. What I've said all along is that if the Democrats hadn't resorted to using reconciliation to pass the amendments, the HCR law as we know it would not exist today. I'm glad you understand the distinction between those two positions, because many of your intellectually challenged leftist buds do not.
Here's where we differ. If it were not for the "branches" added to the original HCR "tree", that tree would not exist today. When you say "no one cares" that's just not how things went down. The issues addressed in the reconciliation bill were dealbreakers from the House perspective. Without those fixes, Nancy didn't have the votes to pass the Senate version of the bill.
You're right about the rationale that forced Dems to use reconciliation, but wrong about the media coverage. This was a huge process issue at the time and the Republicans were trashing the Dems up and down the street for wanting to "ram through" HCR with reconciliation. Oh, and do you remember that "deem and pass" nonsense the Dems considered at one point? I do agree it's a little hard to find those news articles today, in researching my previous posts Google was basically useless. But there's more than one way to skin a cat and I'm in the process of compiling lots of news material that will tell the story. I won't be done today and Monday is a holiday, so I'll get back to you on this Tuesday.
Feisty
Awww, here I was fully expecting one of your trademark zingers and you go kindler, gentler on me. You win the compassionate conservative prize for the week. But I'm not wrong on this issue, I'm dead solid right. Come back Tuesday to see.
Bill, I can find no reference(s) to where there were reconciliation instruments used to pass HCR. NONE. I see what you are saying about some amendments, though, and it seems that there were a lot of parlimentary menouvers used to get the amendments passed. However, I do not see any of these manouvers being used to 'set the stage for' HCR.
HCR successfully passed the cloture hurdle in the Senate, so after that, all it needed was a simple majority, which it got. The issue was the cloture vote, and you may be getting that conflated with the actual floor vote.
I remember the cloture vote beccause I think that Joe Lieberman is a snake and he vote FOR for HCR during cloture. I think he was the 60th vote!! (I could be wrong here, and I am sure someone will fact check me, and if I am wrong, I'll state that publicly).
In the 111th Congress, the rules in the Senate precluded quite a few House bills from being passed, mostly through the cloture rule. Many bills died in the Senate - including the bill that would remove tax breaks of companies that offshored jobs, for example - because they could not overcome the cloture hurdle.
I dunno, Bill, you may have your facts conflated here. The floor vote AFTER cloture does seem eerily similar to a reconciliation vote, doesn't it?
Bill, this "intelluctually challenged leftist bud" enjoyed reading your post and your reasons behind your position even though I think you misunderstand or confuse the procedures needed to pass legislation.
The cloture vote is to stop the filibuster and move legislation to the floor. Once the cloture vote of 60 is achieved, that allows the legislation to move to the Senate floor for amendment and debate. Each amendment is then passed or not by a simple majority vote. It has nothing to do with reconciliation. The Constitution does not require 60 votes for anything with few exceptions (treaties).
Don't you remember the GOP outrage when democrats discussed possibly using reconciliation in order to bypass the 60 vote cloture requirement to move HCR to the floor for debate, amendment and passage? Don't you remember when even democrats were angry at the Corn Husker, Louisiana Purchase compromises to get to that 60 votes for cloture? The anger at Joe Lieberman? Democrats discarded the reconciliation idea because they did not want to place a sunset date on health care legislation. Reconciliation can be used for legislation impacting the budget, reconciliation is when the cloture vote is bypassed completely as in the original Bush tax cuts--which were required by reconciliation rules to sunset no more than ten years later. Reconciliation was NOT used to pass HCR. All the procedures and rules that are part of the 60 vote-requirement for filibuster cloture and final passage were followed.
A second form of reconciliation occurs when either the House or Senate amends or passes different forms of the same legislation--the bill must be "reconciled" between the two legislative bodies, and it starts the process over including 60 vote cloture to end a Senate filibuster. In the case of HCR, the House passed the Senate version of the bill in order to avoid the Senate filibuster. There were a couple amendment that also passed immediately by the House and Senate, both passed using regular rules requirements. There was nothing illegal nor were there secret maneuvers to pass HCR; it passed by using the legal House and Senate rules.
It all comes down to who is going to protect US middle class jobs. If all protection is removed as the Republicans are trying to do, then you can see what corporate America has in store for us. I honestly think that many of the Tea Party people did not understand what a getting in bed with the Robber Barons would bring. If they win, all jobs and benefits will be in jeopardy, not just union jobs. Time to start protecting the middle class or accept third world wages and benefits.
This anti-union sentiment in the right wing really stems from the fact that unions, by and large, are big financial donors to democratic causes. Take away the funding of the opposition, and it will be easier to stay in power. Last I heard, the Auto Industry in America is picking up steam, and I just have a gut feeling that they are going to be just fine.
Superlogi, you are speaking as if the Auto Industry is already gone. Now are we blaming the entire Great Recession on unions? Interesting take. My take is that the poor economy almost destroyed the auto industry, and the roots of the poor economy of course were from, say it with me, 2 unfunded wars, greedy mortgage bankers, and a slew of deregulation allowing and rewarding greed to take the central role in decision making.
You don't have to be a progressive to protect the middle class. It's unfortunate that "protecting the middle class" makes all the Fauxers immediately think socialist / progressive takeover.
Superlogi, your whole tone here speaks to the fact that you can not be taken seriously in a debate. The tone is a dead giveaway - these are talking points that you are spouting, and you automatically throw hatred at anyone that has another opinion. Unfortunately, many of these differing opinions stem from actual research and thought, and you are the first in this "debate" to throw this tone out there. That alone speaks volumes.
Jennifer, well said. Obviously superlogi believes the GOP preaching that unions are the evil cause of our problems.
Degrets, also well said. Karl Rove stated this week that IF the GOP can diminish unions, it means democrats lose.
Unfortunately Jennifer, most factory workers are paid well above what they should make for doing a job that the majority of Americans could do without much education.
See, here's the thing...when you have to pay your workers where in turn you cannot sell your product or you have to raise it's price, something has to give. That's why jobs are moving overseas, because unions have created an unrealistic pay scale for their workers.
At the end of the day, globalization is here. If American workers do not want to accept a lower scale for some of these jobs, these companies will go where others will. This is capitalism. And in the end, you'd do the same damn thing if it was YOUR MONEY being spent out of YOUR POCKET if you ran the business.
No owner creates a company to give people jobs. They create a company so they have the chance to make good profits. Everyone knows in business that it's better to make sure your company is making good profits because that means you'll have a job in the long run.
James,
Not to call you out, but I did a search on google for "Factory Worker Wages". There's a million hits, and across the board we see things like this:
$10 / hr? $31,000 per year in some cases? Are these people overpaid?
Seems like what they are making is dangerously close to poverty.
There's a reason that we don't see many mansions in industrial sectors of our cities...
Take a look at some of the Detroit neighborhoods, Flint, anywhere there's heavy industry. These are depressed neighborhoods.
The unrealistic part of their pay, is that there's barely a way to survive as a "factory worker"
So James, American workers should simply accept the wages paid in China, India, and elsewhere as their new standard of living. It seems to me that American workers should set the standard for other countries to achieve. Using your logic, conservatives should embrace the illegals (they rant against) who come here and work for lower wages--oh, wait, that explains why conservatives like to complain about the illegal problem but refuse to sit at the table to figure out how to fix the problem beyond building a fence.
So sick of dems acting like they're eveybody's savior. Load of crap, waste of time. Fire them all, get back to work slackers.
Degrets, Jody
American workers are going to have to accept what their employers are willing to pay them or not work. Also, in regards to the pay, there are plenty of examples of exactly why the car companies and other manufacturers went overseas and the tying theme was unions and their unrealistic expectations of pay scale for the factory workers.
$31000 is not poverty. It's RELATIVE to the cost of living in your area. If you make $31000 in NYC you are going to struggle to find a place to live, rent, etc. If you make $31000 in Ohio or Arizona or Florida, you can get by decently. You won't struggle but you won't be poor, that's for sure. But again, if you aren't someone who is good with their money, then that's not anyone's problem but your own. I got by on $20K out of college and worked my way up to what I make now which is a nice decent salary. Never did I feel 'poor' in any sense. Live within your means. I always had money and I adapted to my pay scale by either renting or living a certain way.
Don't put yourself in a situation where you have a job that can be farmed out to India or China, etc...because this is the new reality..employers do not have to stay at 'home' because 'home' is no longer a relative term. Many companies are moving their headquarters to business friendly nations or states. Many factory workers are unfortunately just high school graduates and don't offer much in job ability..and that is the risk of not educating yourself further.
But we all know even well educated people are struggling and a lot of that also is because many of them decided to get expensive degrees that never promised them a job in the first place. But there are people that did everything right and unfortunately they are unemployed also. That's just the way thing are across the board and in the end, everyone is probably going to be living with less $$$ because of global competition.
Public workers and union workers have gotten benefits that far outweigh any private sector benefits and most of their pay scales go up continually per year where they make way more then what they should in their position (3% raises per year). Many are able to even double dip into the system which stresses it.
Many of you really really need to take a reality check here. We are at a serious crossroads and many of you seriously just don't get it. The governments is BROKE because they over promised and overpaid the majority of public sector workers.
No where in the constitution does it say you are 'entitled' or are 'guaranteed' a better life then the previous generation.
Many of you feel that you are somehow are.
Things change folks. Empires fall. Things adjust.
James,
Thank you for your respectful tone, and you raise some good points. However, I have to disagree with the fundamental choice to put these cuts on the back of the American Worker. There is a reason that we have unions, that if the American Worker is treated as a commodity (i.e. a person-less face, cost to company, etc) with no representation, then greed will govern how the commodity is treated without much regard to the human condition. We've seen this in the way companies out-source to sweat-shops. I know we are discussing public worker unions here, but I sense a slippery slope. The worker in general needs to be represented from those who would treat them as poorly as humanly possible in order to make a buck, or save a buck.
I still maintain, and I always will, that ending the tax breaks given to the highest income earners is a much better choice of how to save the government some money. Their tax rates are historically low, and they will keep pushing to get them lower and lower. If the highest income workers were taxed at reasonable rates, I don't believe we'd have a situation where we have to save money by compromising our values as human citizens, giving control of people's livelihoods to those who would seek to belittle as much as possible, and save as much money. If they aren't represented, then there's no reason to give them anything more than rent for the shack by the tracks. And in this day and age, people who have jobs are stuck with them. Hundreds of applicants for each job opening.
I am comfortably sitting in the middle-middle class. I would vote for tax increases in my bracket, as I live well within my means and am well above poverty. I just wish that attitude would also exist for those people making 5 times more than me. At least look at historical tax rates, make the connection that they are historically low right this second, and then look at our debt problem. I see a connection.
James, good for you, you are willing to accept substandard living in the USA as the price of a global economy. I do not. Auto manufacturers went overseas because of free trade agreements and because they (and other companies) were given tax breaks rewarding them for outsourcing jobs--those continue and the GOP has no intention of repealing them. In other civilized western countries like Canada, the cost to manufacture products is not burdened by the cost of health care benefits; wages are similar to US firms. Seems to me that the cost of health care to companies is one good reason to have government, single payer care--we pay premiums (like seniors do for medicare), we choose our doctor and the government simply pays the bills.
Also, whenever you use the phrase "The government is broke because ..." check yourself. The government is broke because of many, many, many reasons, and it's erroneous to say that there is absolutely one reason why our government is broke.
So, getting the government unbroke... how do we choose which problem to tackle first? Let's first give merit to your idea that public workers are overpaid and a strain on our system (which I don't personally agree with, but let's just say for the sake of argument that this is a fact).
All things being equal, since there is so much wrong with our government and so many reasons it is broke, I vote for fixing the things that don't further destroy the middle class. Lets look at tax rates and cutting programs that we can do without. Jumping straight into unions is just a focused stab at the middle class (and at a huge democratic financier), and is just a political move to keep the power to those who have a lot of money.
James, your assessment of public and union workers is NOT correct. The reason why I say this is because the municipalities that employ them have AGREED to this as their compensation. It is the job of the MANAGERS of the municipality - Governors, Mayors, Aldermen - to make SURE that they have enough money to cover the cost of running their municipality. The Union is under NO OBLIGATION to do anything other than what they have been contracted to do.
Your thinking is pervasive, and it is wrong. Why blame the Unions when the municipality managers are incompetent? Why are we allowing these municipality managers to kick the problem down the road? Why are we not holding these municipality managers' feet to the fire and demand them to ANSWER why there is a shortfall when there was none before? Why didn't the municipality manager(s) PREPARE for the worst?
Again, your are incorrect. If the Government is BROKE, we would have NO money. Period. A Broke person has NO money, correct? The current Government figures show that revenues have INCREASED over the past 10 years, so if that is the case, how is the Government BROKE?
The reality is this - the Government is OVEREXTENDED. That is COMPLETELY different from being BROKE. The Government is STILL making money, but the Government is not covering ALL of its expenses with the Revenue that it is making, and is borrowing from somewhere to satisfy it's immediate debts, adding to a DEFICIT, which is what we are trying to deal with.
What I will agree with is that these Managers MAY have overpromised, but then again, it is a promise when the deal is sealed. The fact that the Public and Union workers benefit from this 'overpromising' is irrelevant. What is relevant is that these municipal managers were incompetent for making the promises they knew they couldn't keep in the first place.
Super.. it is not the unions fault that the auto industries are not good negotiators.
Yes, James, but it's okay for a bunch of paper pushers who produce nothing and who criminally brought down the economy to now be making millions in bonuses. But those stupid uneducated "workers" who work 40+ to bring home enough to pay their bills and eat, surely don't deserve to do that as anyone can do that job. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Not!
Pietro, at the end of the day, when a company can no longer pay their debts, they go into either bankruptcy or they close and they work out deals with their creditors.
Just because things were promised, that does not mean they will be paid. I hate to tell you this, but promises are broken all the time.
Of course those legislators should be held accountable, but in the end, their accountability is in being re-elected or not and we all know that they over promise to have that happen.
The government is broke. In fact, a lot of what the government is doing is illegal and that is why many want the FED dissolved because they are not running with a balanced budget and are printing money which is devaluing the currency.
@Jody
I have not accepted a sub standard of living because I educated myself and made sure I was not a blue-collar worker where my job skills couldn't be farmed out of the country or to the next guy. The point here is many union workers are high school graduates (auto/factory) industry. They picked a field that is not 'safe' vs many other fields of work that are.
@degrets
A flat tax would be the best thing because in the end, any tax system with deductions allows ways to get around them. People who are single, don't own a home or have kids are discriminated against because they don't have these things while the others can deduct themselves down to a lower bracket. Some middle class end up paying less then 15% taxes. Same with Upper class and it all has to do with deductions. A flat tax is the best thing and then you know you are getting the right $$$ from each bracket.
It's never a good thing to tax people, especially if they worked hard for their money. The simple matter of the fact is that big government on the taxpayers dime is not a good thing at all because it leads to waste and there is plenty of that.
We wouldn't be in this situation if we got the WASTE under control that the government is responsible for. Taxing more because the government is too big and irresponsible with the funds is not the answer.
In regards to unions, there are enough laws in place that unions are just not necessary now. They basically manipulate their workers and steal from them. If workers would seriously look at what unions provide them, they'll see that they'd be better off without them because the unions are just an organized system of stealing from it's members to feed the top.
@Cathy
Did I say that a bunch of paper pushers who produce nothing and who criminally brought down the economy should not be punished?
You know it's possible to be someone who believes in fiscal responsibility but also believes in punishing those that manipulate the system.
But Cathy you better learn again that no where in the law or constitution does it say that you are entitled to a better living anywhere. You 'EARN' that through hard work and working your way up to better positions, salaries and jobs. If an 'uneducated' worker wants to stay on an assembly line and never do anything else, that's up to them, but they cannot complain if they get laid off or their job is outsourced.
James, a municipality is not a 'company', and they cannot just 'decide' to not honour their obligations. They collect tax monies from the electorate that live in that municipality. That analogy you are floating does not fly. Are promises broken all of the time? Absolutely. Does the person who has a deal with the municipality have the right to demand their money/benefits/compensation from the municipality even though that same municipality may be 'broke'?
Absolutely.
The issue is not with the Unions - it is with how the municipality is managed. The 'too bad, so sad' mantra does not apply here. Just because there is mismanagement and chicanery does NOT mean that the Union needs to 'look the other way'.
And they are not.
Governor Walker knows better. He is just choosing to do this because he can.
This whole situation in Wisconsin is ridiculous! It is time for the American people to take our government back. Public employees get paid far more than private employees and the gap is even bigger in benefits. Every democrat who ran across state lines to avoid a vote should be voted out of office and we should all remember who they are and NEVER vote for them.
I am tired of paying taxes so government workers can get salaries and benefits far beyond what I get in the private sector. Our government is dysfunctional, inefficient, and to big. It is our huge, dysfunctional, and wasteful government that is holding back our economy and job growth.
Our representatives have a sense of entitlement that must be eliminated. If a law applies to the American People, it should apply to our elected officials and that includes things like social security, pension, and healthcare.
Obama should keep his nose out of this situation. Again Obama is going against the will of the people.
We must continue to VOTE THEM OUT!!!
Got any data to back this up? What do you do, anyway? If you're going to compare educated knowledge workers to fast food counter help, OF COURSE they're gonna get paid more!
Well said, as far as I'm concerned every one of those cowardly democrats should be dismissed. They were elected to vote on legislation not cower in hiding if they don't agree on it! The democrat's are on the wrong side of the fence on this one. The taxpayers of Wisconsin voted Republicans in to get their fiscal house in order, either pay your fair share or many will lose jobs. Where's the sympathy from the unions over the people that will lose their jobs if their greedy contract is renewed? The REAL middle class of America (the privately employed taxpayer) is awakening and is saying enough is enough! As for the teachers that lied and called in sick, everyone that can be identified attending this protest should be summarily fired. Public employees do not pay taxes they are paid for with taxes!
Good point Auntie. Most government workers around here are taking furlough days and have been for quite a while. Do DMV workers get pensions? I honestly don't know. But I know they effectively got a 10% pay-cut, at least here, from regular furloughs.
I'm sitting pretty in my "private sector" job. No furloughs, overtime if I need it, great benefits. Wouldn't trade it.
Angry,
I don't know where you live - but where I live, public servants don't make more than the private sector... as a matter of fact, most public servants work in the public sector because of the "perks" like health insurance and retirement that offset the low pay. If you want to take that away for people already making far less than they could in the private sector - be prepared to not get any government services like road repair, trash pickup, interstate grass cutting, etc...
I actually believe that what the Democrats did is probably illegal in the sense that the governor could probably have them dismissed for not fulfilling their duties.
If they want to do something, then do it within your means of power like filibuster or something like that...but by leaving the state like a bunch of weasels and hiding and not performing your duties because you don't like the fact that the democratic system is going to go against you in the vote is hypocrisy at it's finest.
Public workers need to get real. They've been overpaid for decades. Reality is going to set in in the next year. Welcome to it.
James - I dunno if the tactic was legal or not, but it seems to me - from what information that I did get - that this was the ONLY way to hold up the legislation. The legislation is poised to be passed, but at least ONE Democrat had to be present for the rules for passage of the legislation to be satisfied.
I am sure that is because of something called 'representation'.
What I CAN say is that the Democrats in the Wisconsin Legislature are pretty shrewd. Their action(s) have caused this whole issue to be front and center so that the whole WORLD can see what is going on.
Depending on which side of the divide you are on, you can make your own judgement. However, the Governor - and his methods - are now under scrutiny. Maybe the Governor should have been more conciliatory and he PROBABLY would have gotten what he wanted. Maybe his ego got in the way of his thinking and now we see the result.
No matter what happens after this, the electorate is watching. If the Governor wanted to do something 'under the table' or 'behind closed doors', it is a LOT harder to do that now.
If you maybe actually read the news from sources other than "MoveOn.org" you'd already know that the public sector has been making much more than the private sector for quite some time:
The private sector is fed up with the situation and has zero sympathy for unionized public workers. Take some massive pay cuts or start paying for your benefits and pensions.
A lot of the people complaining don't even understand why they are out there.
Most are saying their pay is being cut and it's not. They are being asked to put some $$$ into their retirement and benefits like the private sector has to do and even the 8% they are being asked is nothing compared to the private sector and they are whining and crying like they are being oppressed. If they make $50K a year they are still going to make $50K a year. The difference is that their paychecks will be smaller because some of their money is going into their pensions and benefits. That's hardly something to riot/picket about. If they keep doing it, some of them are going to get laid off and I really hope the governor does not pay them for their missed days.
As for the Union part, they are being asked to accept a pay scale that is realistic to their fields. They aren't being told they cannot meet or form a union. It's absolutely hilarious to see that the Unions are going to spend $30 million on anti union ads coming up. Way to spend your money. How about using that money for your workers...
These public sector workers just don't get it at all. The state is BROKE. That means something has to change and it's going to be $$$.
Collectively bargaining is not a constitutional right by the way...people spouting this nonsense need to really stop.
Wisconsin GOP Senate Leader Sends State Troopers After Missing Top Democrat
The public workers in Wisconsin make 4.8% less than their private sector counterparts. 59% of the public workers have a 4-year college degree and make 25% less than their counterparts in private sector jobs. They like their jobs, and please tell me why they should be required to cover Governor Scott Walker and his GOP State legislature's backsides for passing unsustainable tax cuts to benefit the rich and big business.
It seems to me that the people buying the ideological kool-aid of their preferred party are the conservatives--the GOP has succeeded in convincing their base that government public sector jobs are the evil monster causing all the state or country's problems. How many conservatives want to pick up the garbage or plow the streets? How many want to chase criminals or run into burning buildings for a pittance in pay because conservatives think they are less important to the economy? These workers pay taxes, too.
As for President Obama defending the rights of people to bargain collectively, the right to protest, to right to civil disobedience, so did President Dwight D. Eisenhower, republican. How dare conservatives speak as if the people marching and protesting for THEIR rights are not people and should not be listened to. Disgusting. When the war on the middle class hits nonunion, private sector workers--people like ProIndividual will be the first to squeal.
The Cato Institute, was founded and funded by Charles Koch, sponsor of every part of the Conservative universe from Glenn Beck to the Tea Parties.
They aren't an unbiased source and you shouldn't pretend they are.
John B
The Cato Institute is to "independent" what TheBlaze.com is to credible,...
Somebody made the point yesterday and I First Read is making it today. This episode combined with the HCR debate shows the general hypocrisy in politics. It's not about right vs. wrong, it's about Democrat vs. Republican. One side used tricks and gimmicks to slow things down and now the other side is using tricks and gimmicks to slow things down. Only difference is which party is doing it and how the other party is reacting. According to the Dems, the GOPers slowing down or protesting HCR were obstructionists, not patriots. But, now that it's the Dems using tricks, the lawmakers and protesters are patriots not obstructionists. Likewise, according to the GOP, the protesters in the HCR debate were patriots and the lawmakers in Wisconsin are obstructionists.
First Read crew. A question for you. What makes a quorum in the US House or Senate? Has something like this ever happened at the Federal government level and would it even be possible?
Ah, Grimey.....you're right again. As our hosts point out above, "Bottom line: Those in political power do every thing they can to pass their priorities, and those out of power do every thing they can to stop them." I guess in the end it all comes down to the differences in our parties' priorities and how those fit in with our personal principles.
As for your question about quorums, it's just simple majorities:
From www.clerk.house.gov:
"A quorum in the House of Representatives is when a majority of the Members are present. When there are no vacancies in the membership, a quorum is 218. When one or more seats are vacant, because of deaths or resignations, the quorum is reduced accordingly. Because of Members' other duties, a quorum often is not present on the House floor. But any Member may insist that a quorum must participate in any vote that takes place in the House. If a member makes a point of order that a quorum is not present, and the Speaker agrees, a series of bells ring on the House side of the Capitol and in the House office buildings to alert Members to come to the Chamber and record their presence."
From the glossary on www.senate.gov:
"quorum - The number of Senators that must be present for the Senate to do business. The Constitution requires a majority of Senators (51) for a quorum. Often, fewer Senators are actually present on the floor, but the Senate presumes that a quorum is present unless the contrary is shown by a roll call vote or quorum call."
I have no idea what happens in the House if those bells ring and nobody shows up. Does Speaker Boehner get to send out the National Guard to haul them in to vote? :)
JoAnne...
Thanks!!! You're the best. Looks like it's not really an issue at the Federal level since if you're party is in the minority, you can't deny a quorum.
Hope you have a great weekend and thanks again!!
I'll drink a margarita in your honor this evening! :-)
First round's on me, Grimey - frozen - and as always, save the salt for the popcorn!
P.S. - Technically, I guess the minority party still could deny a quorum, depending on when the vote was called and who was in or out of town at the time, but I'm not good at math on Fridays.
This is an assualt on the Middle Class plain and simple, anyone who supports the GOP are truly a bunch of morons, this is the Koch Brothers main goal, destroy the Unions, funny thing when the GOP bankrupt the country the morons who listen to the likes of Beck, Palin and Rush vote them back in, kind of like sticking a pin in your eye and asking someone to push it in further. Look at the states where this is happening, all key battleground states for Prez, you think this is about budgets, think again, even if your not in a union, and I'm not, the wages negotiated by unions directly affect wages for other similar jobs. Break the unions and we can all go back to working for $4.00 an hour and no benefits maybe 18 to 20 hours a day. Because this is what the corporations want, those big bonusus and profits and tax breaks aren't enough for them, they want your sole and with the baggers and GOP's help they just might get it!
GREAT POST NAVY!! Now is the time to start fighting back! Do not let the GOP/Tea Baggers destroy the middles class and the poor. Why is it that the GOP can find money for the rich on the backs of the poor?
Tommy-499410:
Thank you for the kind words. The Middle Class is in trouble. The GOP/TP solution is to make the Middle Class responsible and put the DRACONIAN solutions squarely on our backs and let the ones who created the problems to begin with get a free pass. And to make it worse, they are dong it again which in part is our own fault because we voted these knuckle heads in. Maybe now some people will wake up and realize the fraud that was imposed upon them by the GOP/TP. Virtually none of the campaign rhetoric can be supported by their deeds. In fact, most of the time they are in opposition to each other.
Gov. Walker actually inherited and budget surplus when he came into office. He then had a Tax Decrease aimed at the Wealthy and Corporations which turned a surplus into a deficit. Now he wants to balance the budget off the people who did not support him in the last election. He is exempting police and Highway Patrol because they did support him. This is as calculated and political as it gets. These Republicans are using the George W. Bush Playbook and they have No Shame.
Rick:
You are 100% correct. The States own independent Budget office said they were on track for a 120 Million dollar surplus. Walker then gave the tax breaks to corporations, etc to the tune of 140 Million Dollars, now he has a shortfall of 137 Million. Funny how those last two numbers are about the same. If Walker did not give the tax cuts he probably would not have the shortfall. And, in true GOP/TP ideology, he blames somebody else for the problem he created, in this case the unions are the scape goat. Repugnant all of them.
I hope that the silent majority of Fiscally responsible citizens of Wisconsin are taking pictures of the protesters and comparing them to photos of Wisconsin teachers who called in sick and that any teachers who are found to be protesting when they called in sick are fired.
Its their sick days - no one said you actually have to be sick to take the sick day.
Its called a 'benefit' and your sick days accumulate based on how long you work - just like vacation.
I suspect that even you have taken a sick day from work at some point even when you were well enough to work.
Seeing that you can't fire a poor performing teacher, I seriously doubt you can get one fired for taking a sick day -even if you have pictures of them at an amusement park.
People have a right to protest - let them protest.
One day, it may be "you" that will need the right to protest
I posted yesterday concerning this subject. I feel the need to post again. I live in Wisconsin. Milwaukee to be exact. The Teacher's union in this state has come to the table every time to negotiate their contract for the last 35 years. There has not been a teacher's strike since 1975. I would venture to guess that the teacher's would have paid more into their Health Insurance and pension if they had been asked to come to the table. The issue is this: Governor Walker never invited them to the table. After repeated phone calls from the union since he has taken office, he chose to ignore them. The issue is also the collective bargaining rights. It has been a mainstay in this state and it also has nothing to do with the budget. For those of you calling the Democratic Senators "losers" or "morons" or whatever else that you are calling them: they are doing their job. They are protesting for the people who elected them. For those of you asking "what about the kids not being in school?" You are not seeing the big picture. The teachers and the Senators were given no other option. This vote would have gone through yesterday. At the very least, they are stalling the vote to let the lawmakers hear from concerned citizens. These teachers did not have a "free ride". They did not "steal" anything. Anything they have they negotiated. They have paid into their Health Insurance for the last 20 years. If teaching is such a cushy job, why aren't YOU doing it? You will push well educated and good teachers to different jobs. If that is what you want, then fine. But do not turn around in 10 years and ask why our education system sucks even more.
Be careful what you wish for. What you think will only affect the Public sector will come back to bite us as a country.
It works like this: If you want to be a public school teacher you have to join the union once hired. Union dues are automatically deducted from your pay check and then distributed by the union leadership to political candidates. These candidates are then elected and beholden to the union-money train. They, in turn, have a direct or indirect influence on who sits down to negotiate with the unions. There is little, if any, discussion because whatever the union wants is rubberstamped. Some negotiation. Conflict of interest anyone?
The fact is most of the "good teachers" actually teach in the religious and private schools. They are pursuing a "calling" not a "job." Hence, all the money teacher unions throw to defeat charter and school choice vouchers. Who needs accountability? I won't hold my breath over how many "well educated" and "good teachers" go to "different jobs."
Furthermore, the legislators who went AWOL are not doing their job. Why don't they just wear signs that say, "We only work for Unions." I'm sure union members do not make up their entire electorate. I guess the other citizens in their district are not worth their time and effort. Huh...how democratic is that?
dapenate:
Correct. The union leader has no problem with paying more and said so again today. What they object to the the stripping away of their collective bargaining rights. He went on record that if the collective bargaining stays, they do not have a problem. It is all about weakening or destroying the unions because most of them back the democrats come election time. That is it in a nut shell.
Gov. Walker himself does not value education, and doesn't have a college degree. He took classes, but thought that the "point" of college was career training, and he got a career entry-level job, so abandoned his degree program. The state of Wisconsin has been at the forefront of education and innovation. In 2010 it ranked 9th among all states for its education, and on "standard" measures like SAT results, it is in the top 5 (along with Iowa, Minnesota, North Dakota). So the residents of Wisconsin have seen proven results from their teachers as a general rule. To repay them, Gov. Walker decides he will strip collective bargaining rights from state employees and limit their pay raises -- that doesn't sound like anything resembling a free market. Either they should be able to bargain collectively for their work OR they should be able to compete and command a salary on the free market. Gov. Walker is also trying to bleed the university system and pit one school against another.
Casey13-So you are now telling me how it works? I know plenty of good teachers who work as Public School teachers. They believe in Public Schools. Many of the teachers in the public schools have Master's degrees, But you can demonize public school teachers all you want. For the ones that I know, it was a calling.
As to your last point...I could say the same for the Republican Legislators. I am sure the non-union citizens do not make up their entire electorate.
Casey13 -
I'm afraid I'm not following your logic here - some teachers decide to take the safe, well-paying jobs with great benefits in religious and private schools. Some teachers decide to teach in inner city schools with low pay and benefits, crappy conditions, daily security risks, and often have to augment classroom supplies out of their own pockets. And you're saying the former group is the one with the "calling"?
Please,.... The years of bargaining (35) regardless if under republican or democrat controll is not the issue here! The Govener ran without the Union support, promoted his agenda, and won an election. He is now acting in a responsible way and addressing his constituents as prommised. The Union representitives KNEW his slate PRIOR to his WIN!!! This is why they wanted to sit down at a table on his first day on the job. I can only LIKE YOU believe both sides want what is best for the Union they represent. DON"T FORGET... The Voters in Wisc. have asked him to do a job and he is doing it. I hear the Union workers complaining loud and clear. I hear the state of Wisc. Union sticking by thier Gov!!
Dapenate, I was a professional who gave up a lucrative consultancy to work in higher education. I, too, know a few dedicated public school teachers, most of whom cannot stand the union. They also believe in public education, but have no choice but to belong to the union. Regardless, you could not dispute how the unions and politicians have a symbiotic relationship that is tantamount to a conflict of interest.
Frankly, I'm an Independent. I thought Tom DeLay was a travesty and happy he is now in prison. I do not agree with all aspects of the Republican platform, especially on social issues, but I do not recall them leaving Congress during the Healthcare debate or at any other time. That's the point. These elected officials in Wisconsin who left the state have snubbed their nose at their duty. I am sure if the situation was reversed and Republicans had walked out than you would be up-in-arms over it. So, please spare me your hypocrisy.
Is creating a budgetary crisis for the specific purpose of stripping workers of their rights a legitimate agenda?
If so then you're telling us the ends justify the means.
Welcome to the new America, in which we chase the Third World for excellence in desperation.
Abattaglia-
While I understand your point, I would just say this: I do not believe Collective Bargaining Rights had anything to do with the election of Scott Walker (or the budget). I believe that had they negotiated, Walker would have been able to get MORE in contributions to their benefits. I can only believe that part of this is political on Walker's part. If he busts the union, Republicans jobs are safe.
Casey13
You do not know what I get "up in arms about". And please do not call me a hypocrite without text to prove it. If I am ever a hypocrite, I invite people to tell me about it. I do not like hypocrites and I try very hard not to be one.
President Obama 's dangerous comment that the actions of Wisconsin's duly elected Governor and Legislature were somehow an "assault" on public unions is an outrage.
The President made a great speech about 'civility' recently; yet at the first sign of problems he reverts to his radical upbringing. A real leader would ask his own out-of-control union thugs to tone down the rhetoric, and stop the threats against Republican legislators. Instead the radical community organizer fans the flames.
Obama is not the leader of ordinary Americans; we are but a hurdle in his way.
I think the President, DNC and MSNBC think that they can use this to their advantage. I'm not so sure it's going to work. I also think that Ed Schultz is no longer is not there as a commentator or a journalist and I hope as he whips the crowds into frenzy he remembers that their are children in the crowds. My other question is for teacher's who will be laid off if these cuts are not implemented how do they feel about their fellow workers?
Who are those cowardly Democratic senators accountable to? Meaning, can their employment be terminated? Talk about a group of sissies... The senators on TV seemed to be proud of running out of town. I can't believe it.
I work in private industry and what Walker is asking looks like a good deal - it sure beats losing a job. Big Eddie Schultz portrays this like the Apocalypse is coming.
I do have one question and that is: why do I need (or would I want) someone speaking on my behalf on a job (and to pay them on top of it)?
As an engineer, I've worked at nuclear and fossil plants (under construction and operational), and factories.
The ignorance of educators. This is about fiscal responsibility; they can think about it now or they can think about it when the state is bankrupt and they're unemployed. Can't milk a dry cow.
Read my post below, Redford. That's NOT what this is about.
Yes it is Anna Molly, but you have already displayed your very partisan colors. You may be interested to know that FDR - that supposed Deity of the "working man" - thought Public Employee unions a terrible idea.
Why should public workers have to pay for a giant tax cut that Republicans passed, big enough to turn a surplus into a deficit?
One more Republican assault on the average American.
Did ya'll go to school? I ask because apparently you can't read. Did you not read where the state HAD the money BEFORE Walker pushed through a huge CORPORATE tax cut....for HUGE corporations. Now, instead of sitting at the table and talking with these ppl, he just wants to break the union. Same as Ohio. This is NOT about accepting cuts to make things better, this is about unionbusting and laying the problems on the back of the middle class....again.
This is a war between the tax payer and the deadwood Marxists unions in the public sector. They killed off the auto business, now they want to kill off the tax payer and put us in bankruptcy for their greedy leaders and followers.
The prophesy of Unionizing public sector are , is, coming true: eastern Europe style communist unions and thuggery. And they are using our kids and their educations as weapons, they cannot teach, but they want all of the money.
It is clear the public sector workers do not respect the constitution, nor freedom to vote, nor respect the process! and it is clear where the Demonrats stand: they stand against the voter, tax payer and our democratic process.Â
The tax payer is in the right, has the power, and the numbers to win this war, if our elected leaders will lead, and not run and hide like the cowards the demonrats are in Wisconsin and elsewhere.
Let the voter be heard, and the tax payer: NO mas, NO mas!
If you think it is bad now, wait until Obama gets re-elected, or we keep t he Demonrat Senate! the unions will be so embedded and sucking up our money, like a cancer that has metastasized, we will never get rid of them! they will drain us dry, they have already.
Edwardo ~ Read my post below. You're wrong. You've drunk the kool-aid. That's all.
By the way, Edwardo, public workers pay taxes, too, but they'll pay a lot less in Wisconsin under Walker's plan. How do you think that will impact the deficit, together with the additional negative impact that taking that much money out of people's disposable income will have on the economy as a whole.
But the rich will be happy, Edwardo. I hope that makes YOU happy.
As to whether teachers can teach, Wisconsin consistently ranks #1 or 2 in the nation on ACT scores and SAT scores, despite those nasty ol' unions.
I see that teachers failed with you, though. Pity, that.
without unions edwardo would have never gotten a job or an education
you pay taxes with our tax money, it is a pyramid scheme, you should be in prison with Madoff, get a real job.
@ Anna -- Preposterous! All monies going to public and/or govt. workers come from private sources! Even though taxes may be withheld from your paycheck there is no net gain from it, the money is merely being recycled. Without an influx from private taxes it would quickly disappear.
To Allen in NJ,
Whats stopping them is a passion for the job, a sense of civic duty ( clearly lost on you) and a knowledge that if they (college educated, intelligent individuals) weren't there to teach our next generation, those who would step in their place would not do as good a job as they do.
...from a union 'sister' and public servant in the Northwest, stay the course! Union-busting in Wisconsin or anywhere else should not be a part of our economic equation, under any circumstances!
The class warfare and clash within the confines of the American middle has resulted because of our dismal economy; with those in control in the top tier, expecting all of us to earn less = greater profits at the top end.
Where does it all end? Stand your ground and you will prevail...
If you're talking to me "Edwardo," I have a "real" job -- I'm an attorney, and not in the public sector.
If you all think that public employee tax money just gets recycled, then let's talk about not making them pay taxes anymore. I'm sure they'd be willing to take a little less money if they didn't have to pay any taxes.
But one thing you miss -- public sector WAGES also get recycled back into the economy where private sector businesses feed off of it. Or do you think public sector workers don't pay for groceries, cars, mortgages and all of the things that you SUPERIOR beings do? Where do think you get your money that you pay YOUR taxes with? You get it with the money that private AND public sector employees SPEND.
How silly you all are. If it's so darn cushy, then why aren't YOU doing it?
When you have a candidate for public office - outright lying about what he's going to do.... and pulling his "stunt" in ignoring the will of the people - (Union members are your NEIGHBORS, people - firefighters, nurses, sanitation workers, cooks, etc.... ), then something is clearly up. This is about the future of the Democratic party.
This is nothing but a pure power grab. If the Republicans can get rid of unions in Wisconsin - they can do it nationally. Unions are the force behind elections. They are the boots on the ground - the largest contributors to Democratic candidates.
OF COURSE the Republicans want them gone. OF COURSE, Corporations want them gone.
As a Madison native and a public employee, I write in solidarity with the Madison Workers.
BS! union s are NOT our neighbors: they are our enemies, they are greedy, deadwood. If truth is the test in getting elected then Obama and every demonrat mayor should be OUT or in prison.
Thanks for posting Molly! Even though I'm a couple of hundres miles away, I too write in solidarity with the WI workers!
Well said proletariat sister! I'll see you in the square and we will march for worker solidarity and the redistribution of wealth and land! We will dance on the bodies of our capitalist oppressors and drink from the cup of brotherhood and to a workers paradise! March on! March on!
The unions are not our enemy, you are.
Yes. All too painfully, actually. And it just goes to show that what goes around comes around. This may not have happened had democrats in Washington fulfilled the mandate THEY were given in the 2008 elections, rather than just engaging in more of the same-old, same-old.
However, people here at First Read need to have a better understanding of what actually caused this "crisis" in Wisconsin. Ed and/or Rachel could tell you. And so can John Nichols of The Nation ....
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html
I dare conservatives to read the article and the underlying Legislative Fiscal Bureau report and then tell me to my face how it's either "fair" or morally honest to require public workers, either union or non-union, to pay for these new and unnecessary political pay-offs by the Walker administration.
And before you start your personal attacks, keep in mind that I'm NOT a public worker and have no personal skin in this game. I just care about other people. You?
Anna Molloy:
I agree and your post is accurate. Walker created the budget shortfall when he gave 140 Million in tax cuts to corporations, etc and then said he had a 137 Million Dollar shortfall. He created the shortfall and then blames the unions which had nothing to do with it at all. This is the GOP/TP model, cook the books and then find somebody else to blame trying to hide what they did. The GOP/TP is running the cook and blame tactic across other states as well, like Ohio.
"Figures do not lie but liars figure" this is what they are doing. It is all about politics and more wealth and power for the select few. Nothing has changed.
the point i see here is any government employee, whether civilian or military, is deemed AWOL when not at their appointed duty station. and this is grounds for dismissal. simply replace thwe ones who say "if you wont play my way, i will take my ball and go home so noone can play". very childish and nearly illegal on their part.
Anna Molly-I live in Wisconsin. I believe that I have read in the past that you also live here. I don't know about you, but I am absolutely sick to my stomach over this. To demonize teachers and nurses this way is sick. It is our path to a Third World America.
AM: The costs to the states for supporting their government workers pension plan systems and their health care costs are well documented. All totaled, the states are trillions of dollars in-debt to these programs. Because of that, the governments of these states are finally starting to face the truth of the problem that has brewing for decades. Promises were made to the state unions workers, but those promises turned out to be nothing but lies. Now the states are on the verge of insolvency, and the problem needs to be addressed. Part of the addressing of that problem is finally telling the unions the truth, the truth that the promises made to them were in fact lies, and that they need to sacrifice and pay a small portion of the pension and health care costs.
The unions can now either step up and be partners in the solution to the problem, or they can run away and hide, like the Democrat state legislators did, or just walk off the job. It's their choice.
The problem, as I see it, is that NO ONE did their homework. The Unions made their proposals and the municipalities AGREED TO HONOUR THEM.
Now, because there is a shortfall - not through the actions of the unions, no less - the UNIONS have to bite the bullet?
That does NOT pass the giggle test. At all.
What this does show is that the municipalities did NOT do their due dilligence when evaluating these proposals. They did NOT do their cost analyses to see what the worst-case scenario is. They did the politically expedient thing when there was a problem - kick the can down the road for someone ELSE to deal with.
That is the reality.
For someone to write that the unions can either step up and be partners in the solution, the unions were NEVER the problem in the first place. The Unions are there doing what they were contracted to do.
It is up to the municipality to MAKE SURE that they have the monies to take care of the expense of running that municipality, and as we can see, many of these 'managers' - governors, mayors, aldermen - fell down the the job and are sticking SOMEONE with the bill for their mistakes.
The Unions are saying why should WE pay for the sins of the others when we are doing what we agreed to?
I would have to agree with that setiment.
Let Gov. Walker put his head together with the best and brightest in his cabinet to come up with some ALTERNATIVE solutions.
Based on philosophy that money equals tax revenue for the government to scavenge and redistribute I can see your point Navy Vet, however tax money was earned by the people outside of the government and does not merely exist to be taken away and handed to public labor unions.
JoAnna ~
Pretty sentiment, JoAnna, but thing is, the current shortfall which the governor is using to justify this budget "repair" bill was caused by the governor, not the workers. In addition, the governor never asked them to partner, and they never got a choice.
Sounds pretty darn dictatorial to me -- Communist, you might say. But not on the part of the workers.
All your pretty words, JoAnna, don't hide the ugliness inside, and they still don't answer the main MORAL question in all of this, which is why public workers -- union or non-union -- are required to give up their benefits and their rights to pay for a specific set of tax breaks given to the wealthy. Just like why is it fair to make the average worker give up Social Security benefits he/she paid for to fund tax breaks for the top 2 percent of earners.
Where's your MORAL compass on this, JoAnna?
If you have one. Honestly? I never seen one bit of evidence to support it.
bepatient ~
Handed to them? You mean they should work for free? On what theory? And where do you think that people in the private sector GET the money they "hand" to those in the public sector. They get it by selling goods and services, including to the government directly and to workers in the public sector. Or do you think the government and its workers get goods and services for free, too?
I don't usually call people names, but your statement is just plain MORONIC. The whole theory of how an economy works is that it's all recycled. That's healthy. Hoarding, on the other hand, hurts.
And if you think that you're handing so much money over to "unions," then why don't you just join one of them and get in on all this cushiness?
Never mind, I think I know. You sure would never qualify to teach economics.
The facts are very clear regarding the Wisconsin (and soon to be folowed by other states) fiscal problems and I would welcome other explainations as to why our state and federal governments are flat ass broke. During the 1960's dems who had assumed control of many state legislatures began passing laws allowing unionization of public employees including teachers. Unions rushed in and an within 10 years the majority of public employees were unionized. Now if any arrangement in the entire world represents a clear conflict of interest it is allowing for unionization of public employees and soon after the unions were installed the proof became evident. Politicians (almost all dems but including RINO republicans) began running for office with enormous support from these public unions. This created the obvious quid pro quo of votes in exchange for the politicians support for the ever increasingly rich contracts proposed by unions and accepted by these very same politicians unions put in office. In the private sector this would be tanatamount to managers of a company being in collusion with the unions representing the employees. It is not hard to imagine what would happen to a company with this sort of arrangement. In the public sector this is exacerbated by the fact that governments (including schools) have no competition that could at least put some check on public employees demands. The result has been continuingly more outrageous demands of unions that have been approved by mostly dem politicians (including their idol sahib Obama as proven by the stimulus payoff of the last 2 years). The US is at a crossroads and this is perhaps one of the top 3 or 4 domestic crises in our history. Its not going away because the pigs that have been feasting on our money will not rollover. The good news is the substantial majority of the country supports the gov of Wisconsin, Chris Chrisie, Mitch Daniels and even gov Cuomo of NY. So FR and the lefty press will try to spin this whole situation so that an impression that right is on the side of the public employees is created and predictably more and more people will desert the lefty press shaking their heads and wondering why these guys just can't seem to publish an honest story
This diatribe would probably be accurate if the municipalities did NOT ACCEPT the agreements with the unions. So the question is this - why EXACTLY DID the municipalities accept what the unions were offering?
There is a political influence. no doubt. But these contracts with Unions are finite. When the union contract comes up for renewal, why DOESN'T the municipality say NO, we are going to do it differently? What is keeping the union at the barganing table if the municipality does not want the union?
I have seen many posts disparaging unions, what the people in them get paid, and why they are even necessary. What I HAVEN'T seen is the reasoning behind why the municipalities continue to deal with unions if they are such a scourge. Could a municipality actually be run WITHOUT union support?
I guess time will tell.
Pietro,
The gravy train is off the track and Wisconsin is the first test (and most important test) of how far the public employee unions will go to hold on to their ill begotten gains (really it has been a criminal collusion). I can tell you the overwhelming majority of americans do not support the union viewpoint and every day these children continue to act this way builds the resentment among the people of this country. The old saying "all pigs go to slaughter" is representative of the greed exhibited by public employees and their unions and how they kept on eating at the public trough long after they should have been sated. I will not shed a tear for any of them.
Uh, down? How do you feel about the fact that the governor artificially created this crisis by giving away a budget surplus AND MORE in business tax breaks to create a deficit? That AFTER the unions made concessions in December.
Does the term "bargaining in bad faith" ring a bell?
It is not the fault of the union or workers that the state is a bad negotiator.
THERE IS NO BUDGET CRISIS IN WISCONSIN. The Wisconsin equivalent of the CBO indicated there was a SURPLUS when Walker came into office.
He then GAVE AWAY $140 million in tax relief to Wisconsin Corporations.
His "stunt" is based on a lie.
lets go back to the time when the rich controlled every aspect of American life .. when child labor laws were non existent where you worked for whatever the Company said you would work for.. where overtime was just routine with no additional pay...let the rich and powerful have there country back... yes elections do have consequenses...wisconsin will see some of the consequenses when Boehner cuts off funding for liheap and the elderly freeze
Wisconsin...
Pretty soon you'll see more massive rallies in protest, except they will consist of taxpayers held hostage by these union thugs and leaders !! Many are at the verge of being driven out of their homes and communities with overbearing tax burdens caused by unions in state, city and federal governments... with no end in sight. No unions in sector governments... PERIOD!!
BigLou this is a Lou also---you are exactly right---why have public unions? Unions were first established because the employer wouldn't/couldn't be trusted to treat the worker fairly---unions had/still have a place in our economy--but not for public workers!!! So what these people are saying out of both sides of their mouths is--we the common middle class should trust the government but they won't!!! Let's face it kids these unions are all about big, and I mean really BIG money---if they tell us to trust the government I say you first!!!
Yet you BOTH disparage unions without any regard to the municipality that makes a deal with them.
It takes two to make a deal, and in this case, the municipalities have decided to make a deal with the unions. They COULD have decided to make a deal with a private company to do the same job, so why DIDN'T they? They Could have just hired people off the street to do the jobs that are needed, so WHY DIDN'T THEY?
I actually agree with one of the posters above. I am and have been a union member against my will for the last 20 years. Unions really do protect the weak/incompetent. In theory it's a great idea, collective bargaining, in reality, if you manage to stay employed and gain seniority, all you need to do is show up for work and you are above reproach.
This is an inherently flawed system. I for one would LOVE to be paid more, as I work harder and produce far in excess of many of my co workers, the reality of the situation is that I am frowned upon for working hard as I 'make everyone else look bad'.
This case is one of those rare situations where both sides are right. On the one hand, Unions do serve a purpose, especially in municipalities and states with tens of thousands of workers. On the other hand, they should move to a production based pay scale.
In the years before I began working in a union, I was a manager. My style was easy going, and my philosophy was very simple. Give your workers the tools and training to perform a task. Establish and communicate attainable goals to your workers, and if they are unable to meet them, review the standards to determine why they cannot meet them. If its not the tools or the training and the standards are reasonable (everyone else can do it), fire the employee, they are not good at this particular job. Really simple.
I would never subject myself to manage a unionized entity. Not worth the hassle.
@right
'Why have public unions?'. Its a good question, and it has a good answer as well. Logistically administering a different pay rate/scale/deal for tens of thousands of employees is quite hard, in fact it might be impossible. The union system suits states/municipalities very well, pay grades, step increases, and most importantly, it can easily be budgeted for.
Imagine every worker trying to negotiate a different deal for themselves. Particularly the people who are in high demand who perform critical services, the kinds of people who do jobs we cannot live without. The union structure guarantees workers will be at work, and one deal is negotiated for all. It's pure math and makes perfect sense.
Fire them all for failing to report to work, and ban them from ever having a State job again.
Unions MUST go...they are simply interested in power and money...worthless bastards!
If you think being anti-union is a winning strategey for Republicans, think again. You may have big corporations and billionaires on your side, but attacking working Americans, police, teachers and firefighters is attacking a group of people who form the backbone of this country's Get Out The Vote efforts on election day.
"is attacking a group of people who form the backbone of this country's Get Out The Vote efforts on election day"
People who are in unions are NOT the backbone of America.....maybe back in the 50s and 60s.
Tracy1973
I'm referring to the fact Union members often volunteer en masse to man Democratic Party phone banks, knock on doors, and provide rides to the polls, during elections campaigns. This is what I mean by saying they are the backbone of the GOTV drives. Of course, working Americans, like firefighters, cops, teachers, etc are also the back bone of America and, among those most likely to vote.
The backbone of America is the middle class!!! not the rich union people---it's those of us who pay taxes that pay their salaries that are the backbone---please don't buy the union hype about how everyone but you are rich---I was hoping union workers wouldn't be fooled so easily.
Six thousand teachers will be laid off in the next two years if their fellow teachers won't take cut. That's from CNN. I don't no but I personally would rather get a little less for myself than have others loose everything. When you neighbor looses a job it can destroy a whole family, when they loose their homes it destroys block, when more loose their homes it destroys the neighborhood, that destroys business.
Amy sorry to bust your bubble, The essentials of life are food and water. Truckers and farmers are the backbone of the country. These jobs you mentioned are not vital. They are jobs that will pay in other ways rather than money. These people are there to help others and if their priority is money first, than they are in the wrong profession.
looks like union commie teachers are the only ones defending the actions on this blog! how does it feel to get up every morning and know your all systematically exploiting our kids for your greedy purposes! and not doing your job! you all could not hold a job in the private sector, it would be too demanding and require too much intelligence on your part.
you don,t realy have a clue-do you---------------better ask why eric colter from the justice department is not prosicuting the biggest scam in world history----and why your controled media is supressing the truth-------your should be wanting election reform--tax paid elections---stop economic terrorist from owning your politicians--------we do have problems-----people at the top want to much and people at the bottom want it for free---------------------------all said life time politicians did this to us---------they govern for the wealthy big interest that treat them like kings and queens------------------things must change and fast or the people in this country are going to the streets and that want be pretty-------our politicians need to get their act together fast------all lifetime politicians need to step down now---you have done enough damage
Unfortunately, Eduardo, doing it "for the children" doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table. But then again, Republicans tend to label anyone who fights for their rights as communists, which is why they hate unions; the unions call people out on their mistreatment of others and the Republicans don't believe in accountability.