Looks like the lefty liberals are getting really worried about what kind of dirt the Republican’s will find on them when they start investigating the last two years of Dem spending like drunken sailors. A couple of days ago Politico reported on a lefty liberal group getting organized on the Left Coast with the sole purpose of looking for and publicizing dirt on Rep. Darryl Issa, chair of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform. The group’s purpose is to try to discredit any dirt, scandal, corruption, waste, fraud and abuse Issa finds with lefty liberal fingerprints on it. Joe McCarthy must be laughing from his grave to see lefty liberal’s adopting his own tactics.

And last night, Shemp Matthews ended his Wiffleball show with a call for all his few thousand lefty liberal viewers to call their Senator’s and demand an investigation into “how we were led into the Iraq war based on lies”. It was a clear (and Hillaryous!!!) attempt to create another distraction to mask the dirt that he knows is going to come out over the next couple of years on Barry/Botox Pelosi/Harry “Droopy” Reid and company. If THAT’S the best he’s got, it’s pathetic.

I see lots of LAFF’s coming my way!!!!

I’m sure many of the FR lefty liberals subscribe to SnoozeWeek (Iwas reading it at the dentist's office(. This week’s issue must be making your skin crawl with the cover story being “Egypt: How Obama Blew It” and the last page detailing how Bristol Palin is cashing in for millions. Not bad for a teenager from Wasilla Alaska.

Good Morning Navy – Did you happen to catch this little scheme?

Missouri State Sen. Jane Cunningham (R) is pushing a bill which would dramatically claw back state child labor protections. As the bill’s official summary explains:

This act modifies the child labor laws. It eliminates the prohibition on employment of children under age fourteen. Restrictions on the number of hours and restrictions on when a child may work during the day are also removed. It also repeals the requirement that a child ages fourteen or fifteen obtain a work certificate or work permit in order to be employed. Children under sixteen will also be allowed to work in any capacity in a motel, resort or hotel where sleeping accommodations are furnished. It also removes the authority of the director of the Division of Labor Standards to inspect employers who employ children and to require them to keep certain records for children they employ. It also repeals the presumption that the presence of a child in a workplace is evidence of employment.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/15/missouri-child-labo/

Now I understand why the Teapublicans are waging war on women’s reproductive rights…

Now I understand why the Teapublicans are waging war on women’s reproductive rights…

They will no longer have to 'out source'!

They can pay the children of MO .20 a day instead of the kids in China!

Navy Vet – Boehner and Cantor didn't try to shove the engines down the Pentagon's throat. Did you cut and paste that from ThinkProgress? What both of them did was vote for the second engine, which is their prerogative. More importantly, what Boehner did (unlike what Nancy used to do) was open the floor to all manner of amendments and give every congressman a chance to advance ideas important to them. One of those ideas was killing the second engine for the F-35 and we all know the result. And as a public service, I'm going to explain to you what's really going on:

"The culture of endless money that has taken hold must be replaced by a culture of restraint."

Secretary Gates said that in relation to cost overruns in the F-35 program. He also has said the second engine is "an unnecessary and extravagant expense." In fact, the Pentagon under both the Bush and Obama administrations has opposed the second engine for the F-35. But Congress kept appropriating the money to keep the second source alive.

So yesterday's vote in the House on this issue was a good thing. Some have argued that having two manufacturers for the engine promotes competition and thereby will tend to lower costs in the long run. That's true as far as it goes. The problem is there are costs associated with getting a second manufacturer up and running and keeping it running. In Gates' view, those costs are extravagant in comparison to any potential savings down the road.

These are complex decisions and the answer is rarely straightforward. But no matter what Pentagon analysts may have concluded, at the end of the day the real issue boils down to jobs in congressional districts. So while I can't really blame any congressman from Ohio for voting in favor of the second engine. I do have a problem with a culture in Congress where a congressman from Colorado might say "I'll vote with you Ohio guys on this one if you'll support me on the XYZ project in my district."

That's precisely the culture that leads to bloated federal spending and that's precisely the culture Tea Party Republicans are committed to smashing. Yesterday they took a really big whack at that. And to those who continue to criticize the Tea Party, and continue to ignore their positive influence in dragging Republicans back to their fiscal conservative roots, I say you ain't seen nothing yet.

They try to say well they pay taxes in Europe, well this is the USA and you are extracting our oil so now pay up. Show me one US manufacturer that gets raw materials to make their products for FREE.

They do pay for every barrel that is extracted from a lease. Not to mention the cost they pay for the lease itself.

http://www.gomr.boemre.gov/homepg/lsesale/swiler/Table_1.PDF

Take a look at this spreadsheet and look at the money that is paid just for the leases (not including royalties)

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Ok ladies, you all know your role in this new GOP/TP Society – right??????? Back to the 50’s here we go. At least the music was good.

Wonderfully put Navy

Yes the music was good but being thought of as implement of society without a voice as a woman is not.

For some reason the GOP/TP has this dark age ideology that union jobs are not as important as non-union jobs

The reason is they think if they portray a Mafioso like proto type such as Gov. Dough Boy, Chris Cristie, with his soprano land style of governing to back the Gestapo governor in Wisconsin ; then we'll be back in their glorious 50s. You know the time when gangsters knocked off businesses if they didn't comply to the demands of gangsters.

Also, last night Lawrence O'Donnell revealed on MSNBC that Bush's brain, Karl Rove, admitted the truth; finally.

Rove on his white table explained the percentage of union remaining to take out.

The masses of the people and women want good government not Mafioso style tactics as compromise.

They are not paying their royalties and that is the point.

All good points, USN.

Here in Iowa our new GOPTP House and Governor manufactured a budget crisis which "forces" them to eliminate universal preschool subsidies. "We just can't afford it" they all claimed.

That was last week. This week their task is a tax break which will cost the state 10 TIMES the revenue saved by attacking education. The average savings for a taxpayer in the lowest bracket will be $18. The average savings for a taxpayer in the highest bracket will be $6,800.

The GOPTP is serving its wealthy elite masters well.

I hope they do stop the subsidies, I want to listen to the libbies crying and bawling when the price of gas and home heat starts up.

Remember, keep to yourself when the prices stat up handouters.

They are not paying their royalties and that is the point.

Show me where you are getting this information. According to the MMS green book on leasing, the royalty rates range from 12.5 percent all the up to almost 35 percent depending on water depth. How do you explain the over 89 billion that have been paid to the MMS, now BOEMRE for royalty payments.

I know that some companies have an arrangement where some of their royalty payments are made by contributing oil to the strategic reserves, rather than money to the BOEMRE, but they are still paying.

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/energy/tp/MMR_Royalty_In_Kind.htm

http://www.api.org/aboutoilgas/sectors/explore/upload/Fact_Sheet_on_Royalty_Collection.pdf

John B;

It just keeps escalating does it not. I saw reports where the Oil Companies are skating away from 11 Billion Dollars in royalties. Add that to the 40 Billion in subsidies that we give to them while they are making RECORD PROFITS, some paying no taxes and even getting refunds to boot. That is 50 Billion that we are funnelling to them and they do not need it. We can do a lot here in the USA with that 50 Billion like save a lot of those Social Programs (70 of them on the cutting block) from the GOP/TP Spending Cut Axe or put it toward the deficit/National Debt etc.

A question for all the legal minds.

Yes, last Hardball Chris did request folks to call their Senators and voice support for a Senate investigation into the march to war in Iraq. Why, how did we get there, based on lies!

Question.....why a Senate investigation of the lies told by folks no longer in office? Why not an outright criminal investigation of war crimes?

A Senate investigation would be nothing but a stall tactic and yield nothing!

Navy:

For your enjoyment I will give you yet another link that talks about the money involved in OCS leases and the royalty revenues our government receives. You should take a look at these documents rather than just making up "facts."

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/142736.pdf

Page 24 on this one talks about OCS leasing revenues.

Good Morning Feisty

This act modifies the child labor laws.

Thank you for the link. When, opps I mean, if the union busters are successful tea baggers will need to ponder why did they put an intelligent weepy drunk in charge.

You know how they don't understand anything that is dark .

Also I , think Gov. Dough Boy in NJ would be a good GOP/TeaBagger presidential nominee. I like his fat @aa. Before you ask me have I lost my marbles, let me tell you why. Christe has pompous style. I mean he doesn't talk crazy, crazy like all the other psychos they have offer up; especially that twit Sarah. BTW: seems like her radar scan isn't working here lately.

President Obama would run Cristie fat @aa so hard he'd lost weight and get some sense.

Christe has pompous style. I mean he doesn't talk crazy, crazy.

Good Morning Bev!

I hear you!

He hasn't yet crossed over to bat sh!t crazy... but there's still time! ;o)

Hope you niece is recovering comfortably. *hugs*

I see one of the Cyber Bullies is back. Sorry I do not play your game. My post stands.

Sticks and stones may break your bones but names will never hurt you is elephant poop. Name calling does hurt people and shows a lack of respect for others and is the trait of a very weak and unhappy personality.

CYBER Bullies are anonymous phantoms online, and nobody can hurt them back. Cowards like that. There's also the ignorance and lack of compassion factor. That's huge from the comments I see on news stories and opinion columns and on this board from the same people over and over.

These CYBER Bullies say much more revealing things about themselves than they realize, and what they are saying is repugnant, usually a lie or gross exaggeration, and sometimes out right creepy. To really understand a true bully, read the book, "The Sociopath Next Door," by Martha Stout, PhD.

Those who often resort to such behavior tend to try to seek control of their own problems online, rather than constructively dealing with them in real life. I think that those who are consistent with whom they are (authentic) in real life/online are the LEAST likely to bully. They are comfortable with themselves, like and respect their own being. They are proud of their accomplishments and do not feel a need to shout them from the highest tree.

The cyber bullies on the other hand are first and foremost cowards. They do not like themselves very well or their positions in life and are starved for attention. They will take their frustrations out on others by demonstrating name calling, trying to shout (type) the other person down with random rants not germane to the discussion. They become being nasty because they can as they know that in the cyber world there is little one can do other than ignore them, which by the way just makes them more vile and persistent in trying to get attention.

They basically are very insecure in their station in life almost to the point of being impotent.

Oppsie, I meant if the union busters are successful, tea baggers will need to ponder why did they put an un-intelligent, weepy drunk, John Boehner in charge to lead them back to the Dark Ages.

You know how they don't understand anything that is dark .

Hey Feisty Stay in Ill you people over there have screwed that state into the ground and leave Missouri alone.

I see one of the Cyber Bullies is back. Sorry I do not play your game. My post stands.

I am not trying to bully anyone, I just think that "facts" need to be verified. I have not posted any personal insults or any other derogatory slurs, I just want to see where you are getting your information.

I have been to the point and have posted links that are from reports that our own government and the BOEMRE have published about the issue. I do not see how this construes as "cyber bullying"

Sorry If I am not the one you are referring to as being a cyber bully. Maybe you meant to post this in response to Beverly's reply. It did contain some "bully" language.

Gee MBeaty, no one called you out by name yet you volunteered a defense.

Feeling a bit like you resemble that remark?

Chris Matthews' call for action last night was a refreshing confrontation with truth. He named the most extreme of the Libertarians and Tea Party figures as reconstituted John Birch Society adherents - and when you review some of their positions, he's dead on:

1. Get the U.S. out of the U.N.
2. Impeach the Communist in the White House
3. Impeach the Communists on the Supreme Court
4. Repeal all laws regulating business, Wall Street, and the use of private property for any reason
5. Repeal zoning laws
6. Repeal minimum wage, child labor, overtime pay, and union rights' laws
7. Close the Federal Reserve bank system and reinstate the Gold Standard
8. Shut down Social Security and Medicare
9. Shut down all social welfare and service programs
10. Stop all foreign aid
11. Conduct a first-strike nuclear war with foreign enemies, especially Russia
12. Deport all foreign nationals from the U.S. immediately, with only a very few exceptions for some filling essential jobs no American citizen has been found to perform, and in their cases, require them to begin the path to citizenship
13. Stop "coddling" prison and jail inmates
14. Limit appeals by convicts, particularly those facing execution, and conduct executions as soon as practical after sentencing
15. Limit or prohibit all product liability, professional malpractice, and personal injury lawsuits
16. Remove all laws restricting the ownership or "legal" use of any type of firearm (nearly accomplished)
17. Create a national "passport" or identity card system (nearly accomplished)
18. Either eliminate or privatize all non-essential Federal and state government agencies, retaining only defense, police and public safety, customs and immigration, and the few additional specific Constitutionally-defined functions
19. Return to the excise tax on imports and exports as the sole source of financing the Federal government, and repeal all other tax laws
20. Make the possession, use, and sale of marijuana, barbiturates, opiates, and other medical drugs when discovered absent a legal prescription, and other proscribed drugs a capital offense with special provisions for swifter execution of sentences

Sift through the John Birch Society's past records, and these as well as other extreme provisions line up - and so do various positions taken by Tea Party spokespersons or candidates and office holders.

Frankly, this is a platform for destruction of a nation, a fall into barbarism, and ultimately of course - in the event some loony Tea Party generals decided to nuke Russia and half the Middle East, plus perhaps a major chunk of Asia - global devastation. Even without the wars some of the extremists promote, there will be global devastation as the United States virtually dissolves.

Matthews had it right. This is a movement that must be confronted, repeatedly, at every turn, and the broader American public shown just what the radical fringe has on its agenda.

The old John Birch Society was composed of some very nasty folk - some moved on to the the tax revolt crowd of the recent past, others to the militia movement, and still more to the violent wing of the anti-abortion movement.

In the mid-1960's I briefly dated a young woman whose father, I learned to my disgust, was head of the Orange County, CA, branch of the Society. He was a brutal parent, who on learning his daughter had become pregnant after the family's pastor raped her, blamed the entire incident on his own child. He forced her to carry the baby to term, but without informing her, then immediately placed the infant out for adoption. She never even saw it. The last time I encountered her or anyone in her family was at a Society-sponsored speech by the bilious and vile news columnist, Westbrook "Poison Pen" Pegler. He spent most of the evening vilifying an American saint, Eleanor Roosevelt.

So, yes, Chris Matthews, I have already called both of my U.S. Senators to make clear the Tea Party is dangerous, misguided, and not as truly powerful as they like to assert. Now, then, Mr. Matthews, what's next on the program to turn back this fringe element in American politics?

MBeaty- you now have a shining example of how liberals respond when knocked off their talking points- they accuse you of bullying.

There was no bullying in your posts, merely facts, that refute the baloney put forth by the left. Keep posting!

Speaking of baloney, did anyone watch Geithner yesterday? Somebody should have informed him that in order to succeed at baffling "them" with B.S., you must first believe your own B.S.

As bad as this administration's fiscal policy is, it is eclipsed by the incredible ineptitude of its foreign policy. Bahrain, another ally, is now besieged- on the heels of Tunisia and Egypt. Yemen is also subject to violent protests, Jordan is simmering- oh, and did I mention that the Iranians have dispatched warships through the Suez Canal, headed toward Israel? Sure tells me all I need to know about the sympathies of the Egyptian Revolution.

I, for one, sure find myself saying WTF more often.

Well said, John A. These dots aren't hard to connect. Fred Koch was a cofounder of the JBS, a group so dangerously crazy that preeminent Conservatives including Barry Goldwater and William F Buckley publicly disowned them.

Now Fred's sons have sought to pull this rusty old relic out of the cedar chest, dust it off, and spend their vast fortunes selling a distinctly anti-American view of America. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1

Navy:

Why don't you spare us with the ThinkProgress crap. This is FR not ThinkProgress. If we want to read that BS, we would go to the site.

BTW: Chris Matthews is an idiot. He frikken viewership is so low he feels the need to slide way left.

Gee MBeaty, no one called you out by name yet you volunteered a defense.

Feeling a bit like you resemble that remark?

Lets see here, taking a look at a quote from Navy's post for context clues.

I see one of the Cyber Bullies is back. Sorry I do not play your game. My post stands.

Looking at all the posts in this thread, there are only a few that are attempting to counter anything that navy has posted, so that narrows the possible people his post was aimed at. The other posts in the thread that did counter him were much earlier, so one could deduce that Navy would have already replied to them in the numerous other replies above.

Either way, if it was not aimed at me, I already said I was sorry in post 1.20

MBeaty-Liberals don't like facts, you should know that. Democrats have controlled congress for 48 of the past 61 years, where did that get us?

I did not single anybody out. Just an observation that I have seen on this board over the past several months. Let the readers decide.

If I want to post an article from ThinkProgress I will, period. I have not violated the COH and those that try to tell me what to do are playing right into my hand about the cyber bullies. A lot of us post the site where we got the information from. The rules of this board say we should. If you want to read it, fine, if not don't but you do not have the right to discourage others from learning the facts just because you do not like them. That is being a bully (coward) in my book.

If the shoe fits wear it.

If the shoe fits wear it.

LOL Navy!

A whole bunch of the right wing critters are prancing around here in glass slippers these days!

I don't see anyone disagreeing that the GOP has been taken over by a reconstituted John Birch Society.

RVZ555

Beverly, aren't you the one that woke up extra early yesterday morning so you could paste some fake, pathetic chain email you thought was real? How are we supposed to take seriously anything you post after that? It's already hard enough trying to wade through your nonsense and non-sequiturs.

You have absolutely nothing to offer again. Hint see Navy's post about cyberbullies who have some unfulfilled needs. You are a perfect example/

Maybe it was a fake e-mail; donno. However, this link is real and addresses the same problem of suicides related to the economy.

[snip]

Rumors of an economic recovery may be whispered elsewhere, but here, where the downturn remains entrenched, 22 people have killed themselves this year, and two more cases were likely suicides, outpacing the county's annual average of 16 self-inflicted deaths.

In more than a quarter of the cases, White said, distress caused by job loss or financial failure was cited as the last straw.

“We have a real problem,” said White. “They left notes specifically stating that the reason they did this was because of the economy.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33738656/ns/us_news-the_elkhart_project/

As someone who has been subject to exactly the kind of bullying intended to discourage those with a non- liberal viewpoint from posting on this board, I recognize the tactic being employed against MBeaty.

There is fear here, fear that those who read, but do not post, will be swayed by cogent argument. Fear that facts trump talking points. Chagrin that those talking points are challenged at all.

They are trying to nip your cogent, fact based arguments in the bud, MBeaty.

Please don't let them.

It really is almost sad around here now. I mean good golly, but Navy you just literally took a beating. You made a post, asserted the usual Think Progress drivel, then when confronted with actual facts, you run and hide. And really you are calling some else a bully? What is the behavoir you find to be offensive? Was it the facts, or the citations?

Navy, man up and respond to the facts. It's bad enough that Fiesty and Bev play cut and paste avaiodance of anuy and all facts, but you seemed to be better.

Ron, o' keeper of the score, please tally Navy's failures accordingly.

There is fear here, fear that those who read, but do not post, will be swayed by cogent argument

The paranoia runs deep...

John B:

It is pretty hard to argue against the facts that are so easily verified. Great post.

Please Insult Me!

he too busy the last two years trying to shove Obamacare up everybody's @ss to bother.

A man can't ride your back unless it's bent.
Martin Luther King, Jr. quote

Ah Navy, I see that several hours have past, you have had an opportunity to respond, yet you still run away.

What's the matter, no ability to formulate an actual response? How about you apologize for the "cyber bullies" crack? It'd be a good start.

But look on thee bright side - you'll always have Fiesty and Bev. Theirs is unconditional support. So there is that for you. Cold comfort I know.

It is true that some " liberals" are doing some name calling but if you read all of the post more " Concervatives" are into vile name calings than Liberals. The point is why does there have to be any name calling from either side, can't we be civil to those who don't agree with our own position, can't we just post our own ideas with facts we can verify, prove what we believe in and let those facts/proof give our positions/beliefs strenth without the name calling. This is America, I believe that everyone has a right to express their own oppinion, yes I wish they would prove their point, but we have a right to disagree, but can't we still be civil in doing so?

Realnard:

I don't know if I agree with the assertion that the name calling is coming more from one side than another, but I absolutely agree that fact based conversation is the only productive way. Either way though it does not matter. No matter what side it is coming from, all it does is lowers the quality of posts here and in general dumbs everyone down.

I try to keep my post from being partisan and avoid any name calling and I wish the other users here would do the same.

MBeaty,

I just wanted to thank you for your efforts in posting some actual facts to refute the claim the claim that the oil industry doesn't pay revenues. It really is great to see that.

As for "Cyberbullyggate", ignore it. I find it ironic that the man who labels someone else a coward for standing up and presenting facts that refute an idea, would in fact refuse to acknowledge those facts and attempt to argue in any civil manner. Seems to me that the comment about cowardice reflects more on him than you, but you will find few here who would call him out on it. Most will support him, even though they would attack anyone of a differing view that used that tactic.

Just, good job, and thank you for posting that.

Typical Responses from the ones who are guilty the most. You just keep proving my point.

Sticks and stones may break your bones but names will never hurt you is elephant poop. Name calling does hurt people and shows a lack of respect for others and is the trait of a very weak and unhappy personality.

USNavy...are you speaking of certain people on here such as Fiesty and Bev? Calling Christie "Doughboy?" Teabaggers? Right wing critters? Just some examples from your "friends." I assume you are speaking to your "friends" as well as us right wing critters, arent you?

Navy:

I guess the bytch in you is finally exposed. You set yourself up for embarrassment. You are a typical Liberal that just cannot believe someone would have the audacity to disagree. You honestly believe ThinkProgress, DailyKos, MediaMatters, MSNBC are legitimate down the middle, unbiased sources. Wake Up they are not. This is the reason people just scan over all of that Cut N Paste you do.

Bev:

Top of the morning to you. It is all about what "they" think is important and what the powers to be that bought their vote say is important. As long as money keeps playing such an important role in our politics, politicians will vote the agenda of who paid them the most during their campaigns. This is true for both sides not just the GOP.

I watched MSNBC this morning and they were talking about leadership and trashing President Obama. My questions are where is the leadership in the GOP/TP. Where are the plans/ideas on how to create jobs in the USA, where are the plans to keep an improving economy keep improving? No new ideas at all.

Instead they are on a witch hunt for women's reproductive rights and equal pay. As I posted above they want women married, have kids and stay at home. Dark Ages here we come. They attack the Gay Community, Immigration, Unions, Religion etc. Everything but Jobs, the economy, and MEANINGFUL and FAIR spending cuts where everybody has to take a cut in something, NOT just the Middle Class.

Another solid post, thank you.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

They attack the Gay Community, Immigration, Unions, Religion etc. Everything but Jobs, the economy, and MEANINGFUL and FAIR spending cuts where everybody has to take a cut in something, NOT just the Middle Class.

I find it so ironic that is becoming more obvious they can't talk about jobs because John Boehnor is incapable of leading. Boehnor is doing everything he can to placate the teabaggers who in turn are turning their backs on him.

BTW; There is no MEANINGFUL or FAIR spending cuts in the present GOP. The most meaningful thing they could do is admit they want to drive this country into the worst depression, almost to the point of no return so they can regain the White House.

Of course they won't it's Obam'a fault

It isn't just some inanimate entity called "the union" that Walker is attacking, it's American citizens.

Yesterday's Glenn Beck radio program dealt extensively with trying to connect between Egyptians who threw off the shackles of our "friend" the iron-fisted ruler Hosni Mubarek and Americans trying to get a fair deal in their labor negotiation.

That's right, if you want a fair day's work for a fair day's pay you're no better than an "Islamist" trying to "overthrow the country."

BEVERLY---------- Try to remember you libbies just had your fanny handed to you in Nov. of last year, the worst electoral defeat in 70 years, you were spouting the exact same drivel, you are mewling now.

Apparently you suffer from attention deficit disorder.

So Be it....................... End the Unions Thuggary............. They are a bane on this country. and cost the American Tax Payers More then they provide

WTF..................

Here's something I don't understand when people bash unions----the unions BARGAIN with employers--so there are 2 sides at the table and they reach an agreement about wages, benefits, etc. So why bash the unions---management negotiated with them and agreed to the terms.

Steve-505729

So Be it....................... End the Unions Thuggary............. They are a bane on this country. and cost the American Tax Payers More then they provide

WTF..................

Steve,

Know your history. Those union thugs died so you could...

enjoy working in a safe environment

your pay would not be low

you'd have benefits

your work day be 10 to 12 hours, six days a week or else you get fired

jobs wouldn't be brought off by the crook and liar multi nation corporations to be sent off shore

Karl Rove, John Boehnor, Gov. Walker and Christie care nothing about the middle class or you.

In fact, it been revealed Gov Walker in Wisconsin has dictator tendencies similar to Murburak. He came in with a surplus budget; but gave at all back as tax breaks to the donors who gave huge dollars to his campaign.

Unions set these standards so non union jobs had to be competitive only with out the collective bargaining. WtF CAN'Y U C

Google the Knights of Labor or Haymarket square Riot

Bev & USNavy

You raise many good points, and I think the influence of the TB/GOP is steering our country in a scary direction, by pushing their agenda behind doors, back-room shenanigans, pushing to remove our rights as individuals. Is it possible to create healthy debate and compromise with a group who is so focused on everything we socially minded people are opposed to at our very cores? We know from examples that these people don't listen, they interrupt. They force. They have way too much power, and their "holy grail", I believe, is complete control and anti-democratic. They want to find a leader, and have him be our own Mubarak.

Jerry - Your response is a typical response that tells me that you haven't even read the arguments, thought about them, or really have anything to say at all. Public Opinion doesn't mean very much, because it's ALL PROPAGANDA driven (left AND right). Who's propaganda gets the most people on their side? Thats what November proved.

We are in deep sh*t here, on many levels. And I don't even care anymore whose fault it is (trickle down economics and historically low income tax rates though ;) I would rather have somebody lead who actually gives a crap about people than have somebody who only cares about wall street, smoke and mirrors, argumentative bull... Who wins these political arguments these days? We all know who... the one with the loudest voice, and the quickest wit. That one will shape public opinion more than anything else.

Steve, "Union Thuggary", what era are you living in? Heres an example...Have you heard of Walmart? Watch "The High Cost of Low Prices" and see how these workers are treated, and how anti-union Walmart is, and how people get fired just for speaking with union reps. Who is the thug in that scenario? I think it's Walmart. I think a union would help these people get fair wages, medical insurance... we all know that Walmart can afford it. Capitalism at it's best, right? You know they support the TP/GOP too! Boy, those values are impressive, I hope Walmart becomes president someday, so we all can be treated like crap and not have any insurance on a national level and get paid $.20 an hour for hard laborious work. These corporations donate so much to create a society like that, it's all greed. We need to end corporate personhood and take the share prices out of the #1 priority slot.

Ok a bit of rambling, sorry about that.

Good posts everyone.

Very thoughtful post, dgrets, thanks.

Unions are the Reason we are 14 Trillion dollars in Debt.. Unions are the REason our Cars are so expensive. Unions are the Reason our Food is so expensive. Unions are the REason our Roads are so expensive to Fix. Unions are the REason our Buildings are so expensvie to build. Unions are the REason Most of our State Govts are in the Red.. Unions are a life Sucking Drain on our Society,

7 percent of the United States workers belong to Unions.. .. 7 percent of the population Benefited from Obamas Stimulus Money. While the Rest of Americans Suffered.

There are alot more Middle Class Workers in this country that Are Not Union then are Union.........

End the Unions. SO BE IT................... WTF.........

Wait, unions are the reason we are 14 trillion dollars in debt? Why don't you lay it out for us. Go ahead, I'd like to see your math, I want to see exactly how the unions were responsible for 14 trillion dollars of debt, especially since by your calculations, only 7% of workers are even in a union. Those 7% must be getting major paychecks from the government. I don't see the connection.

It's easy to state reasons without backing anything up. You might have a hard time backing up your claims. But why don't you give it a shot?

Great points degrets, thought provoking. Please feel free to participate any time you have something to say.

Steve, care to back up your assertion that the ENTIRE stimulous was routed DIRECTLY to dirty, thieving union members?

Never mind, since a big chunk of it was tax breaks your claim is already exposed as a lie.

degrets - great post today, and yes, I agree, I would love to see Steve's math on how unions are causing $14 TRILLION in debt.

I wouldn't hold my breath, though, because you already know that Steve is just parroting the 'company' line. He is discounting the fact that we have been spending $15 BILLION a MONTH for two wars for OVER TEN YEARS.

Nah, no... couldn't be that.

He is discounting the fact that the Corporate Tax Revenue(s) being collected are only 1/3rd of what is collected from ALL taxpayers.

Nah, no... couln't be that either.

He is discounting the fact that many jobs - ones that COULD be producing tax revenues - are being outsourced offshore.

Nah, no... couldn't be that.

No, Steve just goes after the 'easy' ideaological target - the unions. Funny how the unions - and their packages - were NOT A PROBLEM for the companies/municipalities that accepted them.

Do we expect Steve to provide ANY sources or references to back up his claims?

Nah, No... not happening.

But you WILL get a snarky response.

Typical.

Thanks John B... I've been reading First-Read comments for long enough, figured it was time to dive in.

Back to topic, I don't think it's Steve's fault that he's spouting lies... I think the lies are scientifically fostered and driven into impressionable people, through a great talent of the far right to shape opinions of those who do not do their own research. I'd say a majority of people just want it told to them "like it is", and that's a dangerous thing. There is no "telling it like it is", there are far too many personalities forcing propaganda upon our society, that really, we all have to be responsible for doing our own research and forming strength in our opinions, based on "what's actually happening in Washington", not "so-and-so's analysis of what's happening in Washington".

Many of the posts here are derived not from talking points but from actual analysis of bills and congressional happenings that sometimes I had no idea about, I've enjoyed this forum and sometimes the posts here prompt a bit of research from me, and I'm more informed for it.

Now, we just have to get the conservatives here to do the same. But if it's FOX they're watching, then I'm not holding my breath.

degrets:

Great posts, keep them coming. They are right on point and very well thought out. Not rants at all but a very constructive dialogue.

I agree with John B. post often I want to see your opinions. You posts got my vote today.

Steve-505729

Unions are the Reason we are 14 Trillion dollars in Debt.. Unions are the REason our Cars are so expensive. Unions are the REason our Roads are so expensive to Fix. Unions are the REason our Buildings are so expensvie to build.

Steve, i must take exception with what your saying, But before i start skilled labor unions are not our problems, municipalunions are a concern. what happening in Ws I'm sorry to say will become the normal way of doing business.

American cars are in terms of pricing, are the cheaper, when we compare the cost to the japanisse automakers, Honda and Nissan, Toyota cost more then American cars. unions have nothing to do with that.

Next, and read very carefully, labor unions verses non union companies there is no difference in cost to build, example, I'm a construction estimator, i'm working for a non union plumbing contractor in denver now and i worked in the chicago market for 20 years before this, (got layed off last january)

labor rates with this non union company are higher than a union company i worked for in Chicago. to install a toilet for example in denver the labor rate is 3.9 hours per unit at 38.00 per hour, cost is 148.00. in chicago the rate for the same unit is 2.0 hours at 75.00 per hour. cost is 150.00. there the cost for union and non union are basically the same, however the difference is, skilled labor and the trained union workers have to go through is 5 years of school, a non union company does not have this requirement. they hire guys off the street and because they don't have the training it takes them longer to do the same thing as a union worker.

Now i will say before i started working here i felt that that non union was cheaper, but after working here for the last 10 months i now know that union workers do cost more, but you get a better job for the samemoney. example, i when i was in chicago the number of call back for leaks, was very mininal, but here its a shame, call back are triple the number as in chicago. again a better job for the same money.

If you want to get rid of union that your opinion, but i wil say this, if you trust a non union worker to build your house, Good luck. more power to you, but the problem that goes with non union you will in the end regret your decision, based upon my experince here in denver.

Road construction, back in the 70s and 80s most road were made with concrete, this practice has made road repair for concrete very expensive, a concrete road last about 15 years depending on truck traffic (truck traffic is what tears up roads), asphalt last about 5 years, but the cost to repair concrete is 4 times as much. now using my experiences in Denver the labor cost for non union is lower but it takes then twice as long to build the same road a union worker there the labor cost are the same.

In Chicago Soldiers field went through a 650 million dollar renovation on a 18 month schedule, it was a liquidaded damage job, so for every week the job was not finished on time the cost would be to the general contractor would have been 5 million per week, the job was finished 2 weeks early, a non union company would still be out there working.

the Dan Ryan expressway renovation in Chicago was a 400 million dollar project that was 10 miles, 4 lanes in both directions, with a 24 month schedule LDD was 50k per week, that job finished 1 month early. Steve i can go on and on, but if you want to get ride of unions, fine, you can trust the bridges they build, because i won't.

Jeff-1541632

Thank you Jeff

I hope this sheds some light to Steve.

Have a nice day.

Beverly in Chicago

Jeff-1541632

Thank you Jeff

I hope this sheds some light to Steve.

Bev, in steves defense, and i can't believe I'm saying this. before i came to denver and worked, i was with him, untill i saw the differences for my self. alot of times people see construction workers as lazy and non productive workers, but once i saw the labor rate for this non union company verses a union company that changes my mind, but i unlike steve, work in construction so i see it first hand, Steve does not, so he is taken in by the perception that union workers are expensive and non productive.

Jeff

I have been in the Construction Industry for over 30 years............ I built houses in Colorado over 26 years ago. in the Littleton, Aurora and the lakewood Area.

dont try and sell me your Union crap. I would put my skill as a Carpenter against that of a Union carpernter any day.

Yawn. . Unions are a Bane. I have worked in both UNION and Non Union Jobs. and i would put the skill of Non Union carpenters against those of Unions anyday.........

And jeff i would put my skills against you anyday....

Pietro, Columbus, Ohio

degrets - great post today, and yes, I agree, I would love to see Steve's math on how unions are causing $14 TRILLION in debt.

Pietro, Municipal unions are a problem, there pensions are causing states to go broke,

example, my Uncle was a chicago cop, he got on the force at 23 years old, he retired after 30 years at 53. what he contribuled to his pension is a fraction of what he is getting and will get from 53 years till death. between his pension he collect over 4 grand a month, unlike the past, a cop would work til 65 this works because that 12 years he would have contributed that he is not. i love my uncle he is my Godfather and looked out after me when my dad died when i was 9, but his situtation is what causing pension plans to go broke. on the other hand my cousin was a firemen and worked till retirement his situtation should be the norm.

Jeff, there is one player in this equation that no one wants to discuss.

The municipalities AGREED to these terms. If this was going to make them go broke, why agree?

Jeff-1541632

Bev, in steves defense, and i can't believe I'm saying this. before i came to denver and worked, i was with him, untill i saw the differences for my self.

But, Jeff what about the working conditions and the rules and regulations?

For instance...

like the mining explosion in Virginia

the downsizing to part time which denies benefits

no representation for collective bargaining without the threat of being fired

if you do get fired the union helps you get another job.

I agree money is relevant; however, when your factor in the missing parts it's almost a zero sum game.

Steve,

Your views are shaped by your personal experience, and that's fine - I accept that - however, so far, you haven't answered the call to produce facts backing up your initial claim which basically states "if it weren't for unions, we'd have exactly $0 of national debt".

You've resorted to "pitting your skills up against Jeff" types of arguments, which don't really rely on facts but kind of speak to more of "who's a bigger man" types of things, which I don't think anyone here really cares about. Have you thrown in the towel about the union = $14T debt issue?

Steve-505729

Jeff

I have been in the Construction Industry for over 30 years............ I built houses in Colorado over 26 years ago. in the Littleton, Aurora and the lakewood Area.

dont try and sell me your Union crap. I would put my skill as a Carpenter against that of a Union carpernter any day.

Steve go suck a Door!!!!!! i was just defending you to peitro, but if you want to go there with me cool,

You were nothing but a field grunt, i on the other hand i estimated and built 60 story towers, one year i had a 30 million dollar year and every dam job came in on time and MADE money in one of the toughest construction market in the midwests . i have estimated jobs for 23 years while you were putting your overalls on, as a estimator I was the person who determained how long it took you to do your job, if is was not for great estimator, like my self, you would have been sitting home.

I also want to say, denver sucks, the workers here would compaire to 1st year apprentices, in chicago. please these guys don't know Sh*t. you can put your skill as a Carpenter against that of a Union carpernter, but your plumbingers here are just plain stupid compaired to chicago, 3.9 hours to install a simple toilet when in chicago it 2.0.

Don't go there Girl friend, you better go kick rocks!!!!!

Jeff, you mention about your uncle and his situation.

I DISAGREE that it is the union ALONE that is causing the problems with the municipalities. I lay the blame at the feet of the persons negotiating these contracts with the Unions and with the political officials that AGREED with them.

Unions have their own problems, no doubt, and they can BE a problem. However, in this case - and the case of your Uncle - they did a POOR job of negotiating. Did ANYONE think ahead when they were negotiating these contracts?

It doesn't look like it.

Did anyone do a cost analysis before signing on the dotted line for the Union to do a job?

Looks to me like it was 'kicked down the road' like every other legislation.

Did anyone ever think that MAYBE the tax revenue would not support what the municipality is agreeing to?

Doesn't look like it.

So why is there demonization of the Unions? Seems to me like the unions are keeping the end of their deal... and the municipality is not. Now that we see that the 'powers that be' had their thumbs up their azzes - for years - when they should have been negotiating with an eye to the FUTURE, we want to Unions to take the brunt of the hit?

Now, I DO understand that there are declining tax revenues in the states. Just like any entity, they have to balance their budget(s). It seems that the Unions are saying NO, you agreed to it, so you have to pay for what you agreed.

Isn't that the American way?

What I am seeing is that these Governors are taking the EASY way out by trying to 'bully' the Unions into taking concessions, possibly following the lead of the airlines. Instead of making hard choices and living within their means and contracts, they want to 'bust' out of their obligations, and the unions are saying NO.

Do you think that MAYBE there are other means to balance that budget?

I tend to look at all sides of an issue. We have NOT heard anything about the mismanagement or misappropriations that the municipalities have made. We have NOT heard about any lawsuits for brutality that the municipalities could have avoided - but didn't - and now end up having to pay that out of the General fund.

And it is the Unions ALONE that are causing the budget shortfalls?

Not hardly.

Jeff,

I have to agree. Denver does suck. But really Jeff. I was a General contractor. I am well aware of the work it takes to Bid jobs all the while running a company and keeping people working.

Please share more of your knowledge with me..

Jeff - one other thing. I see your point when you were explaining your point of view and how Steve may be biased in his thinking because he hasn't seen the WHOLE picture. I get that.

However, it seems that Steve was a little slow on the uptake and decided to slam you instead of looking at the fact that MAYBE his views may be skewered. Steve didn't see - or didn't want to see - the olive branch that you've extended and decided to blast away.

I guess we can see how the President has felt for the last 2+ years.

Unfortunately for Steve, you had to slam HIM. I think he deserved it. Instead of an insightful conversation between two unlikely participants, we have partisan rancor with no resolution.

It's too bad, really.

I have been reading your posts for a long time, Jeff, and I really gets a lot of insight into what you have dealt with regarding unions. My father was a union man. I grew up in a Union household, and I would not be here today if it WASN'T for Unions and I suspect that many reading this post are ALSO the product of Union households.

The bottom line - we need to look at ALL of the players in this debacle that we are seeing played out in Wisconsin and soon in Ohio. The Unions are just the higest profile at the moment.

I enjoy your posts. Keep challenging me with your insight.

Beverly in Chicago

Bev, the plumbing union 130 in chicago workes close with the business owners, if a worker is fired because he is non productive word get around and there is nothing the union can do if companies will not rehire.

here with this non union company, if a worker is non productive they can't fire him because unlike the unions the non union companies don't have a pool of workers to draw from. so they are stuck with who ever they have.

Jeff,

Interesting post. I am a licensed architect with much of my fifteen years of experience being on the production drawing not the design side. Currently working with a state agency solely on the contracting and construction administration side of projects. Anyway, your take on the wage differences betwen union and non union rates points out an important fact. Many non union firms might not require certifications or training seminars, let say for installing a certain type of roofing, glazing, finish product etc. As you mentioned poorly installed equipment will skew life cycle costs to maintain the products'equipment and or replace incorrectly installed products/equipment.

I know in my position the state mandates all of our contractors to pay an authorized wage based on what skill that particular sub is performing. That way we can make sure that a skilled properly trained individual is slated to do the work (it helps avoid contractors low balling a bid). In my time in the private sector we had no such way of judging bids.

I'm not doubting you at all, but I would have thought that due to city cost indexes the general weighted average for work done in Chicago would be far greater than in Denver due to limited construction seasons.

I do have much love for estimators though. Good estimators.

Steve-505729

Jeff,

I have to agree. Denver does suck. But really Jeff. I was a General contractor. I am well aware of the work it takes to Bid jobs all the while running a company and keeping people working.

Please share more of your knowledge with me..

Steve i apoligize for calling you a grunt, but i don't apologize for slamming Denver.

You as a general you know that labor is the Key to a job making it or loosing it. when i got here i though denver would be using the same rates as in chicago, denver uses full MCA rates while chicago uses MCA and cuts the rate by 40%. that the normal rate i have see for 23 years. Again I'm sorry. i just see such waste here with this company, maybe all are not like this one, ,but man i was horrified.

Compaired to chicago there is too much standing around, and these Plumbers inlike chicago work from 7am -4;30 in chicago is 7-3 and they get more work done.

i will say this, some construction schedule i have put together in chicago made some plumbers mad at me but i did not care, becasue i'm the type of estimator and PM that pushes. i don't want to have a job that a looses, becasue your projects are a reflection on the estimator.

Yellowdog-Mark D

constructuon schedule in denver is longer, than chicago, believe it or not, the weather here is much better than chicago, also the unions will make you show to a site nomatter how the weather is, unless its below Zero, and that decision is on you as a worker, no show, no pay!!!!

Jeff,

I never take anything anyone says on these Boards personally, I did however take Exception when you said I knew Nothing about Construction, I am well aware of the Waste in the Industry, But i will say there is awhole lot less in the Non Union sector then there is in the Union. One of the things my Employees never understood is that when they were Home enjoying their Families, I was Dealing with Customers and Banks. Going over Blueprints, ordering materials ect ect ect, My Average Work day was 16 hours a day. 6 days a week, My Wife made me take Sundays off to go to church and be with the kids, Those long hours were my Choice. and i dont regret them at all. It has given me a good life and provided for my Childern and their futures.................

No hard Feelings.

Jeff,

and anyway. Everyone starts out as a Grunt/gopher. its what you do with what you learn

Pietro - So why is there demonization of the Unions? Seems to me like the unions are keeping the end of their deal... and the municipality is not.

Missed your post while I was writing mine. I'm rooting for the union members in Wisconsin as every other progressive should. I'm also perplexed about the union bashing that is widespread. In my state the state employee pension program only amounts to 2% of total expenditures. Yet everyone from the local news to op eds says that the state should cut from there to cover our $25 billion dollar deficit. It is just not realistic. Its similar to the GOP Tea Party idea that we can balance the US yearly deficit by cutting a portion of non defense discretionary spending.

I wonder where was the GOP outrage when wall street fat cats were getting bonuses as part of their contracts. Why does the public think the unions should not fight for their ability to protect their members?

IR:

Right on target. The GOP/TP Governors are cooking the books trying to make the case that Public Unions (all Unions really) are to cause of all the problems in America. They forget that the current problems were created by the previous administration with two unfunded wars (one based on lies the other totally mismanaged), two unfunded tax cuts and a trillion dollar drug bill, also NOT paid for, plus the deregulating that lead directly to the Wall Street melt down.

The problem is not the Unions, it is the GOP/TP party in general with their failed economic agenda that they now want a second chance at.

Cheers to the Green Bay Packers and to the American workers who are united to defend what they have worked so hard to receive. Unions set the standard for every worker in America. If the unions go, business will have no reason to retain the benefits they currently provide their employees because without the unions, there is no competition to find and retain quality employees. Big business will be able to do whatever they wish. This is NOT conservative or liberal ideology, this is just fact. How sad that working class, middle American conservatives have bought the anti-union rhetoric because by doing so, they have empowered Corporations to dictate wages, benefits, and everything else. Those well paying nonunion jobs, health care, vacations, holidays, sick pay will disappear for every worker IF the GOPTP succeeds in their goal to erradicate collective bargaining and unions.

Bravo Madison Wisconsin workers, students, Packer football team, citizens for fighting for worker rights!

IR, Navy - you've hit the nail on the head. "Listen to the people!" declared those angry folk at Tea Party rallies and at town hall meetings.

But it turns out, they do not represent "the people," after all. And as the attacks on unions continues, they certainly do not represent working folk in particular. They claim our President is not exercising "leadership," which he most definitely is - just compare the comments cited in the article by Christie and Obama for an excellent example - but the Tea Party finge folk themselves certainly offer none.

Some Tea Party folk think it's leadership" to force the House GOP majority to adopt their version of a budget they kinow will be defeated. This is wasteful posturing by a Republican majority which has been hijacked by an extremist minority from the Tea Party.

During the election, JOBS and the ECONOMY were the voters' number one issue - not the deficit, not health care reform - but JOBS. Right behind that was complete disaffection with incumbents and "politics as usual" in Washington.

Only 22% of voters stated in election day exit polls that they were motivated by Tea Party positions.

So now Obama shows that he's willing to work on issues and has made several public overtures to Republicans. Their response is a die-in-the-ditch hard line with their own budget bills, knowing perfectly well that it will be defeated, or, if necessary, vetoed.

Some of the cuts in the GOP bill are literally absurd and self-defeating. but they satisfy rigid ideologues from the Tea Party.

The "Train Wreck Theory of Government" didn't work for Newt Gingrich and the GOP in 1995. It instead cost the nation many millions and ultimately turned the voters against the conservative right. The same result is absolutely building up again.

So many posting in the FR blog claim "the American people want" ... and then complete the sentence with what the person posting wants. The American people expect the government to contiinue programs and activities that both protect existing jobs, and generate conditions to create new employment - just as the Obama Administration has been doing for the past two years, with increasing success. The American people also want the kind of ideological foolishness and squabbling exibited in many right-wing comments seen around here to STOP.

Only a tiny percentage of the country endorses the extreme views of the Tea Party. Most Americans do NOT want to privatize or shut down Social Security, nor to chop Medicare. And those programs are not really "entitlements," either - they serve people who have earned the benefits and paid for them well in advance. Neither of the programs contributes to the deficit, they are off-budget "trust fund" programs which are self-financed.

Claims that the President is not exercising "leadership" are simply more spin and propaganda offered by a right wing with no constructive offerings of its own. The proposals they have brought forth are stale, ancient efforts first raised during the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Administration in an attempt to unroll Social Security and other programs. The tiny numbers of Tea Party voters look more and more like a re-named, rejuvenated old John Birch Society.

So that's where my Terrible Towel went!! At least we lost to a team that supports unions!

It is popular for the right to bash unions but I wish those doing the bashing would take a look back in history at the benefits unions have brought to us all. It is a way that the right divides and conquers people who should otherwise be in agreement about basic economic issues.

I was a Packer Fan when Bart Starr came up, in 1958., have followed them faithfully, since then.

I am no longer a Packer fan.

jerry then we can probably agree that the Ice Bowl was the greatest Football game we have ever seen if on nothing else. That would be a start in a positive direction don't you think?

IRV---------- Lol, yeah that we can agree on.

Hey Jerry-What you should probably do is not watch football anymore. Those guys are part of a union too. Are they playing next year?

Oh and...I, for one, will not miss you as a fellow Packer fan. We, in Wisconsin, are very proud to have the only team owned by the public.

JOHN A-------You are quite simply another libbie, with attention deficit disorder.

Go back, review the results of the election, Nov., last.

Well now jerry, that's the thing. We have an election every 2 years.

Already there's a fair bit of buyer's remorse over the most recent election, not unlike the historic Republican rise to power in 1994, when the Democratic Party was thought nearly extinct, and the "Permanent Republican majority" of 2004.

If Republicans would focus on increasing employment as they promised during the campaign season instead of concentrating on giveaways to their wealthy contributors and attacking the rights of average Americans it might be different.

Republicans promised to balance the budget while cutting taxes. Where's their plan for that? It was, after all, the centerpiece of their campaign.

jerry we were doing so good there for a minute. Since we started from a small place of agreement how about expanding a little bit for us as to exactly why you don't agree with John A's point. Sorry us old Rednecks are a little thick headed some times and those short pithy comments about his political leanings and possible mental challenges just aren't doing it for me

Yup, that's who I want setting my fiscal policy- a bunch of football players. They are, of course, all know for their financial acumen, correct?

jerry 194283: "Go back, review the results of the election, Nov., last."

Jerry, while we're at it, let's go back and review the results of the election, November 2008. You - and those who share your views - could have avoided all of the so-called horrors of the last two years simply by taking 10 minutes out of your busy day and voting that time, too. Apparently, most of you didn't bother, or the results would have been a lot different and the libs on here would be busy attacking President McCain and Vice-President Palin.

Yes, last November's results were impressive. So were those of November 2008. But this isn't 15th century China or even the 1970's NFL - so much as we both would probably hate to admit it, there are no dynasties. (sorry, Steeler Fan!)

NoJoe: "Yup, that's who I want setting my fiscal policy- a bunch of football players. They are, of course, all know for their financial acumen, correct?"

I'll give 'em one thing, NoJoe - they're all making more money in one year than I'll make in my entire lifetime. They can all work for 10 or 12 years and retire at age 35 and never have to work another day in their lives. I'm going to have to work till I'm at least 68 or 70. Maybe they have a bit of finanial acumen. Or maybe I just need a better agent? :)

jerry194283

JOHN A-------You are quite simply another libbie, with attention deficit disorder.

Go back, review the results of the election, Nov., last.

Jerry, do you look like a sea gull, or just act like one - dive down, swoop and poop, and fly away ....

First of all, Jerry, if you examine my posts you'll see that indeed they are hardly an example of ADD - focused, clearly written, and substantive. Nothing at all to compare with YOUR remarks, which indeed might be prima facie evidence of your own mental issues.

As for looking at the results of the last election, indeed I did, and cited specifics from not only those results but also had elsewhere compared them with a poll released this week that virtually mirrored the election day exit polls:

From http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vote-2010-elections-results-midterm-exit-poll-analysis/story?id=12003775 ....

• 88% of voters cited economic concerns as their main issue
• 73% of voters were deeply disaffected with how Washington was working
• Only 22% said their vote was influenced by a Tea Party position, while 56% said they paid no attention to the Tea Party and another 18% were actively opposed

Those ARE the results of the election, Jerry. They clearly show the mainstream GOP has been hijacked by a minority fringe group with an agenda a large majority of "the people" do not endorse.

I hope you were able to concentrate long enough here to read what is by your standards a long book. If you want to fling insults, I've plenty that are far more colorful than anything you can possibly think of, but even more to the point, I've got the facts. And you do not. Go away, little man, you bother us.

Getting back to those football players and their "financial acumen", wasn't former Philadelphia Eagles lineman Jon Runyan just elected to Congress this past November? The same Jon Runyan who avoided paying a ton of property taxes by buying a couple of donkeys so he could pass his lavish 20-acre estate off as "farmland"?

Let's see, which party does he belong to again? Oh, right......Republican (no irony there with the donkeys!)

And which state was he elected in? Couldn't possibly have been.....New Jersey.....could it?

John A:

Enjoyed your post today. Right on the money and I love the facts. Will try to remember them .

Dennis:

"There you go again" (Ronald Reagan) using facts. Now we will wait for the unworthy opponent, with no credibility, to give opinions.

Dennis:

Put your hazard suit on, you just put up facts and you know how they are going to react to that. Lets see how long it takes 3....2......1

Good for the Packers! This is an attack on the working people of Wisconsin that should not be tolerated by the electorate. I have a feeling there is lots of buyers remorse there now. Walker is after the unions to pay back his corporate masters. If he succeeds in union busting Wisconsin, don't think that any benefit that you currently get from private employment is safe.

I heard Howard Fineman say on Chris Matthews Show last night, that he had attending the Repubican Governors Convention and one of the KEY objectives is to union bust!

Rather than 'organized' labor they believe it will become 'dis-organized' and thus, less Democratic votes!

Sneaky b@stards!

Where's Jerry and his "libbie" trump card? LOL. He must be at recess.

I read that poll, Dennis- and it proves my point.

Obama loses to a generic opponent, but not against any that the media have declared the front runners. Gee.

Here is a little history lesson for you: in 1979, there were 25 'candidates' for the republican nomination, 15 of whom were media driven names.

When two of those 15 , ( Gerald Ford, a nd Delaware Governor Pete DuPont), declined to run, the media anointed Carter with another term. The rest of them, including astronaut Frank Borman, never had any interest in running, but that did not stop the media from telling us that the lack of one of them jumping into the race was a clear indication that Carter would coast to a second term.

Ten candidates ran, two dropped put before the primaries, and we were told that a field that large would harm the eventual candidate because they would have a hard time raising money, and their backers would be discouraged when their candidate lost the nomination. Therefore, Carter was a shoo in.

We see how that turned out.

The fact that Obama loses to a generic candidate, if you had read the article on the PPP website, is a sign of vulnerability. See, it means that the electorate is not too happy with all his hopeful changiness. It means they are looking, and listening, for an alternative.

Every day in this administration brings a new disaster. His fiscally disastrous economic plans. His completely chaotic foreign policy. His unwillingness or inability to admit to his failures.

His profligate personal spending, being footed by the taxpayers.

Republicans will put forth a candidate who can repair the Obama damage. What you, and the rest of the democrats, need to understand is that, while hardcore democrats will only vote for a democrat, the same is true of the socially conservative republicans for whoever the republican candidate happens to be.

That leaves the independents, who are inclined to vote republican. You can bet your bottom dollar that the republicans know this, and will nominate a candidate who can win their votes.

How do I know this? You have apparently missed the polls, ( one by PPP, in fact. Another by Gallup, still another by Rasmussen, as well as republican polling organizations), that show that close to 80% of republican voters want the party to nominate a candidate who can WIN.

So, to PPP, a democratic polling organization, by the way, I say : thank you for doing the field work. We will keep that in mind during primary season.

Dennis -

I think what most of us political junkies on here tend to forget sometimes is that whether it's Romney, Pawlenty, Pence, Daniels or whoever - all of these guys are still somewhat "generic" to the average American voter. They know little or nothing about them except that they're not Obama, and to these uninformed voters - at this stage of the game - the choice is still between Obama and "NotObama". As you indicated, when the choice in the poll is between him and someone they DO know something about - Palin or Gingrich, for example - Obama mops the floor with them. Sooner or later, the "generics" are going to have to leave the safety of their own private fundraisers and rehearsed speeches and get out there and let people see who and what they are. And once they formally declare, the dirt-digging will start. Then the debates. And at some point they're ALL going to have to bite the bullet and decide whether they're going to court the Tea Partiers or not. It might not be pretty, but it's sure going to be interesting.

Republicans can mock the "hopey-changey stuff" all they want, but in 2008 we chose the candidate who most inspired us, who ran the most positive campaign, the one we actually WANTED. Seems to me - at least so far - like the Republicans are going to end up having to settle for the least worst of the "generics". And when you start off by settling, you've already conceded a lot.

I kind of started thinking about this the other day when FR had the results of the straw poll at CPAC and "Other" beat out half the supposedly established names. Not good news for the generics.

P.S. to NoJoe: "Profligate" spending? Great word! Sounded almost as cool when your guy Christie used it just yesterday.....

JOAnne PA;

Kudo's. Right now this is still an Obama vs Not Obama race. Once the players are announced then lets see how the GOP/TP fairs then. If WI is any indication they may have a very long night come November 2012.

Currently it appears the snake oil the right is trying to sell is kinda going the way of the of that gull winged car.

Dennis, since you seem to be interested in thses polls

http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0211/mystery_men_c2e3b9c3-b838-42d4-9742-2550140396cb.html

45%. That is all he garners- with all adults.

And, JoAnn- I have been railing against Obama's profligate spending since just after his inauguration- started with the little trip to Manhattan he took with the wife, that cost the taxpayers a hundred grand just for Air Force One. Then there are the weekly Wednesday soirees, that have just the number of cabinet officers, or democratic senators or representatives needed to bill us for their entertainment.

I don't need to copy anyone. My vocabulary is quite large enough.

The poll dancer just gave her opinion...no facts.

The poll dancer just gave her opinion...no facts.

I wonder how she feels about the fact that President Obama is still more popular than Reagan or Clinton at the same point in their terms...and both went on to win reelection.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Approval-Center.aspx

I agree Patrick, I guess they don't wan't to make the fat man mad.

Apparently it would be OK with some of the FR lefty liberals to call Michelle Obama a "Fat Bottomed Girl".

Not that I would ever say that.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good question, Patrick. If this effort succeeds in Wisconsin it will be emulated around the nation. This is a big deal and the media doesn't seem to care.

Lol.

"...teabagger (political definition)..."

You're not fooling anyone, Patrick.

As I've said on numerous occasions, the use of this particular obscene epithet is most revealing in terms of what it says about the user.

The fact that you're trying to somehow "qualify" its use is merely amusing...and, pathetic.

Why are you so defensive?

Be loud, be proud...like Bev.

Mixed Bag. Very proudliberal. I just refuse to be diverted from issues, by phony indignation over definitions.

You a little sensitive about the name you gave yourselves Bag. A little investigation before you took the name teabaggers would have been helpful. But we all know how you guys hate facts.

Thanks, Mo-

I'd expect you to be a big fan of the word...no surprise there.

Not indignant, Patrick.

That's an incorrect reading of my thoughts on the matter...happens to me all the time here at First Read.

On the contrary, your use of the word tells me exactly who and what I'm talking to.

Indulge all you like...it's an assist, if anything.

:-)

Paul (MI) Mirror of Truth:

Last week you posted that liberals were using multiple monikers (which is far from the truth). How you coming on your rebuttal. Or are you still slinging mud hoping something will stick...somewhere.

Kudos to you Ron for taking the time to read Paul's drivel!

After his earlier 'hatchet job' on the multiple monikers, what ever credibility he may have had, sent him right into the 'NJNB BS' Zone!

Ron:

Selective Memory rings a bell. The mushrooms better get into the sun light and stop eating the GOP/TP waste. Their current ideology as noted above is not flying well with America. Just look at WI for an example and other States that are protesting.

Good Morning Feisty:

Will the Tea Partier who tells the truth please stand...Why is no one standing?

Good try, Paul, who has delusions that he is the mirror of truth, but no bronze ring. It was the "teabaggers" that put Walker in power, and it is the state employees who are making a stand for all WI. Follow the money, who benefits if Walker succeeds? It isn't Joe and Joan America. It is the astroturfers that encouraged the rabble in the first place. It is a rewriting of history to suggest that the "teabaggers" have anything in common with the Boston Tea Party. Those patriots were out to break a monopoly of the Tea Company, which the "teabaggers" either never knew or conveniently forget. This bunch is trying to further corporate control, through the Koch brothers. Trust me, the Founders, known for thoughtful discourse, would laugh at this bunch of reprobates.

No kidding, Feisty, Paul whatever happened to your response to our request for evidence that Libs use multiple monikers?

Where's the beef? Illegals killing Americans? Well, Americans murder other Americans. It appears conservatives believe Tea Party protests about nonexistent death panels and nonexistent tax increases, protesters carrying signs about government take over of health care and other signs saying "keep your hands off my medicare" which is government health care are patriots. Toppling Saddam Hussein by invading a country and killing a 100,000 Iraqi civilians, 4000 Americans and a trillion dollars of unfunded spending was good but promoting the Egyptian people (and other countries' people) to do it through peaceful protests is not good. When hard working middle class Americans take to the streets to protest their State Government's attempts to take away the rights of Wisconsin citizens, they are not patriots but instead are labeled as union thugs. Hypocrisy is what I call such contorted logic.

Will the Tea Partier who tells the truth please stand...Why is no one standing?

Ron -- I'll stand up to you any day of the week...with the truth no less.

Paul -- nice piece, you stirred up the rats.

Ron -- I'll stand up to you any day of the week...with the truth no less.

Starting... WHEN? lol

Feisty: do you ever notice how Bill gets his knickers in a knot when he is challenged by truth from the Libs? He turns nasty rather quickly, don't you know.

Ron

If I thought proof would make a difference I might consider spending an hour or more to search the MSNBC archives for what I know I read. But I know it to be true so why bother. I gave you the time frame, so if it matters so much, you are welcome to search the archives if you like.

By the way, your daily fallback position of questioning the credibility of others as a deflection when you got nothing else is ineffective.

Feisty: do you ever notice how Bill gets his knickers in a knot when he is challenged by truth from the Libs?

I don't think the 'sting' has worn off from getting his a@@ handed to him earlier this week over his HCR hype!

Come to think of it the all right wing nuts are a wee bit nastier than usual this week! ;o)

Is asking you to support your own position "deflection", Paul?

Is expecting you to support an argument with facts "deflection", Paul?

Sorry, those are basics in debate.

Epic fail.

Right, John B: Classic. When you can't provide proof, feign outrage. Poor Paul.

I don't think the 'sting' has worn off from getting his a@@ handed to him earlier this week over his HCR hype!

Now Feisty, there you go again. The one who got his a$$ kicked -- again -- was the idiot John B. You folks just don't want to remember how slimey the HCR process was last year.

Now Feisty, there you go again

Now Bill, there YOU go again, it's alright - being wrong once in a while proves to us that you are indeed human! ;o)

See what I mean, Feisty? Bill just can't help himself.

Now, Now, Bill. I read your citations about the HCR and how you felt reconciliation was used to pass parts of HCR.

Let's be clear here - HCR - on it's own - was NOT passed by reconciliation. I think that we can agree with that assertion up front.

However, I did see that some AMENDMENTS were passed USING HCR as the budgetary vehicle to get them passed via reconciliation. Those Amendments would be subject to the sunset clause that all reconciliation bills are subject to.

The HCR law is like the main part of a christmas tree - it has branches that come from that main part. You can ADD new branches to the tree, and if those branches are added via reconciliation, no one cares. However, the main part - the part that nourishes the branches - is rock solid LAW. The only way that it can be stopped is through REPEAL. The SCOTUS can declare parts of it unconstitutional, but the parts that are constitutional will STILL be the LAW.

I agree there were parlementary manouvers used to pass the Amendments under reconciliation, and I think that this was necessary because at the time, getting 60 votes for cloture was not going to be possible. I find it interesting that we did NOT hear much about the bills passed under reconciliation when the 111th Congress was in session. What say you, media?

If you want to see more, look up 'reconciliation' in Wikipedia. You will see the definitions as well as the bills passed by President Obama that became law via reconciliation.

Paul:

You are right-on. Credibility does mean something to me. Doesn't credibility matter to you as well. It used to be that conservatives valued things like honor, integrity, trust, truth. Apparently all that is lost with the Tea Party. Now, I'll say it again. I can think of no liberal who has multiple monikers, but I can, and have pointed out several Tea Partiers who use multiple monikers. It's time to cut your losses. You lose.

Now Feisty, there you go again. The one who got his a$$ kicked -- again -- was the idiot John B.

Where do you get the right to call anybody an idiot? John B. backed up his arguements with fact which just drives you nuts because you did not or could not argue against them. Read below

Sticks and stones may break your bones but names will never hurt you is elephant poop. Name calling does hurt people and shows a lack of respect for others and is the trait of a very weak and unhappy personality.

CYBER Bullies are anonymous phantoms online, and nobody can hurt them back. Cowards like that. There's also the ignorance and lack of compassion factor. That's huge from the comments I see on news stories and opinion columns and on this board from the same people over and over.

These CYBER Bullies say much more revealing things about themselves than they realize, and what they are saying is repugnant, usually a lie or gross exaggeration, and sometimes out right creepy. To really understand a true bully, read the book, "The Sociopath Next Door," by Martha Stout, PhD.

Those who often resort to such behavior tend to try to seek control of their own problems online, rather than constructively dealing with them in real life. I think that those who are consistent with whom they are (authentic) in real life/online are the LEAST likely to bully. They are comfortable with themselves, like and respect their own being. They are proud of their accomplishments and do not feel a need to shout them from the highest tree.

The cyber bullies on the other hand are first and foremost cowards. They do not like themselves very well or their positions in life and are starved for attention. They will take their frustrations out on others by demonstrating name calling, trying to shout (type) the other person down with random rants not germane to the discussion. They become being nasty because they can as they know that in the cyber world there is little one can do other than ignore them, which by the way just makes them more vile and persistent in trying to get attention.

They basically are very insecure in their station in life almost to the point of being impotent.

" Since the Boston Tea Party, the term tea party has been synonymous with a group of people organizing to protest the actions of their government they perceive to be wrong."

I am sorry, that is incorrect. The original Tea Partiers were protesting taxation without representation. They were protesting being taxed by the King of England, not "actions by their government." I think Paul Revere would be appalled at today's Republicans who equate his fight for representational government as an excuse for tax evasion.

Amy

I see your still practicing more hairsplitting selectivity? So a government body that has control over the people and taxes its people isn’t really considered their government. The whole war was about tea? And now it seems protests are only acceptable if connected with taxation without representation? Got it, the Wisconsin tea party can all go home now. Your myth continues with suggesting repubs equate this to justify tax evasion? Where did that come from? Geithner and a few hundred others in the current administration are the only ones who have recently and are currently evading taxes to the tune of millions. How about you get indignity about that.

Ron

So you “recall and have pointed out” (without proof) as did I “recall and point out”…and you, the keeper of credibility, decided you were more credible than I. Who would have thought.

Paul it's never been America's role to invade a country where we didn't like the leader and remove him, at the cost of American lives and economy, so your last point about toppling Saddam is the lamest of all your points.

Liberals don't trust the Tea party movement because we see right through that movement. It's not as you describe, people organizing to protest against government. The Tea party movement is really about protesting a different looking President.

BTW Paul, you must have one of those amusement park mirrors

Bob: Translation: Their crooked leftist unions fund my campaigns. I am their President, not yours. The President and the Party of Government.

Truer words.

The union members of Wisconsin are finding out today that elections have consquences. And one of those consequences is that the burden is shifting from the taxpayer to the union members, and those union members will now be asked to pay their fair share.

Watch as this trend continues in other states, well, at least states that are attempting to be fiscally responsible.

More BS from the "Mushrooms", now they are "translating" for President Obama. This is what happens when they have no new ideaas and the old ones suck. Several of their own party told the Speaker of the House no, no, he!! no on the F-35. More to come

Navy Disabled continues his senseless shrieking.

Unions are just people, people that somehow got this sense of entitlement that the taxpayers will pay for their Cadillac benefit packages, that the taxpayers would pay for 100% of their pensions, that the taxpayer is an endless piggy bankthat is obligated to supply the union member with their every need.

All that, and the union member also wants guaranteed job security built into their jobs too. Oh, and early retirement.

We should all be so lucky.

Time to pay your fair share union members. The gravy train has ended.

.

Let's look at what Wisconsin Conservatives would like to give the state's publica workers, shall we?

-No bargaining on benefits. Workers will get whatever benefits the state decides, and take them away if they choose.

-Minimum contribution levels for benefits. The state can decide to make workers contribute more, but never less.

-Bargaining will only apply to wages, but that will be limited. Workers will never be entitled to more than an increase greater than the rate of inflation. They'll still be expected to forgo increases when the budget is tight, they'll just never be legally allowed to make up the lost ground when times are good.

As you can see the reality of this draconian attack on Americans who live in our neighborhoods, go to our churches, and pay their taxes is totally different from the hateful, anti-union rhetoric.

JoAnnaSmith1 -- You are talking about unions for public employees -- would you also say that taxpayers pay benefits for unionized members of private companies? Butchers who work in grocery stores? People who clean hospital linens and hotel rooms? If you are not a union member, how do you know what union members want? The right to organize and bargain for the same treatment as employees is important. It is especially important when there is a surplus of labor and employers can treat employees callously. Union agreements for public employees also help states -- the "management" AND the union agree to contracts, and each side is clear on what each will do and provide.

John B.: As you can see the reality of this draconian attack on Americans who live in our neighborhoods, go to our churches, and pay their taxes is totally different from the hateful, anti-union rhetoric.

Looks like the union people will have (almost) the same deal as everyone else. Some would call that putting the unions on a level playing field with the rest of the world. And you're upset about this? So why in your eyes are unions members special and more privileged than the rest of the world?

Kate: The right to organize and bargain for the same treatment as employees is important.

And no one is taking that right away.

The unions though have gotten the sense of entitlement of setting the terms. It looking like that is changing.

Of course, the union also has the right to strike, so they can try that.

And of course, you as an individual, if you don't agree with the terms, you have the right to go somewhere else.

Kate: Union agreements for public employees also help states -- the "management" AND the union agree to contracts, and each side is clear on what each will do and provide.

It appears like Wisconsin is looking to re-define those terms.

...a level playing field with the rest of the world.

Let's not forget that's the goal of Conservatism...to make sure average Americans get all the same benefits and wage advantages as workers in India, Malaysia, China...

You know John, I read your post, and drew the conclusion that, if all this goes through, there will be fewer people working for the state of Wisconsin.

If that state is anything like my own, there are currently three people doing jobs that one person would be doing in the private sector.

That the state labor force would be reduced by this would be a good thing.

Kate, the democratic Senate leader in my state, Steve Sweeney, has put forward a plan to have our state workers pay more for their bennies than the governor in Wisconsin. You want to know something interesting? In his private life, he is an officer with the Iron Workers union.

Seems our state employees have it better than his membership.

Isn't that a kick in the pants.

So this is all because you "think" government workers don't work hard enough.

I know someone who works to collect child support from deadbeat parents. When she started in her job over 10 years ago she was expected to carry 125 cases at all times. That's 125 people who don't want to pay what they owe, track them down, and take legal action if necessary to force compliance with court orders.

Now she carries almost 1200 cases at all times. To spend ANY time with each case on a weekly bases she needs to look at 30 case files per hour. That would be 45 seconds each to make sure that children get the support the courts ordered on their behalf.

I'm sure those kids would be thrilled to know that you believe they're only worth 15 seconds of someone's time.

Wow, I can't believe how the rightwingers on this site are attacking working people. Hopefully their kids' teachers don't know how they feel about government workers, or the cop who patrols their road, or the guy who plows their highway, or the animal control officer who comes out when they call about a rabid racoon in their garbage...come to think of it, these ringtwingers sound like rabid animals themselves.

Amy B.: Wow, I can't believe how the rightwingers on this site are attacking working people.

Attack? Hardly. It's more education and training for the Left that there is a new paradigm that the government union workers will be working under. Obviously those workers don't seem to like the new terms, but that's what happens when the money run outs.

Amy B: Hopefully their kids' teachers don't know how they feel about government workers

I guess the kids can make that determination for themselves. The largest Wisconsin teachers union called for their 98,000 members to come to Madison to protest, so schools out!

Source: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/local_schools/article_c40c09e4-3a43-11e0-91c0-001cc4c002e0.html

John, my husband works for a company that has $8 billion in sales per year, representing literally thousands of customers.

They have fewer than 200 accounts receivable people worldwide.

How? Computers, John. It is simply amazing what those machines can do!

So, for your 'friend', I suggest learning an application that allows her to trace the whereabouts and earnings of the deadbeats using- brace yourself- social security numbers and drivers license information.

She will save herself a lot of time fruitlessly knocking on doors.

She will save herself a lot of time fruitlessly knocking on doors.

My GAWD! Does this old broad have the answers to everything or WHAT?

She's BEYOND ridiculous...

Forty five seconds per case to pull up each case, have a glance at what action has already been tried to recover the funds, either make a phone call, send a letter, or file a cort action, and record what's been done accurately into the system.

And some claim it can be done in 15.

You can't even get a Happy Meal in that amount of time, but we have people claiming it's an excessive amount of time to spend making sure that custodial parents have money for food, clothing, and all the other necessities of raising a child.

Add children of divorced parents to the list of people who can just lump it so that the rich can do less to support the society that facilitates their wealth.

"but that's what happens when the money run out."

The money didn't run out, it was lost to fraud and mismanagement in Iraq, lost to the Bernie Madoff's of Wall Street, and lost to tax cuts for billionaires and oil companies.

If we don't pay teachers decent wages and benefits, than the brightest college graduates will go to work in the private sector, and our public schools will be staffed with young teachers who don't stay long enough to become experienced, or third rate graduates who don't know their subjects.

But that doesn't bother the Republicans does it? After all, their base is pretty ignorant.

No Jo,

Do you have any idea how expensive your husbands companies IT system and computer network is. If the social services department in any state said they need a system that costs that much you would be on here complaining about how much better those computers are and how the government is wasting money by having them. What many of these "new lawmakers" are finding out is that there are no easy answers to these problems. Guess what, if common sense answers worked the folks who served in the offices before them would have applied them and solved all the problems. Compensation and Benefits is a complex issue that can not just be corrected by a sweeping legislation. I have learned in my time in the private sector is the less you pay in wages and benefits the less quality individuals you hire and retain. I think we can all agree the last thing we need is less quality government workers.

Ursula- remember all those voters in Nov who put in a GOP house and almost elected a GOP senate? Remember, all the experts predict not much will have changed in 2012. Unemployment will still be over 8%. However, gas and food prices will be much higher. Bottom line is Nov proved once again that Americans vote with their money or lack there of. The GOP can run Mickey Mouse against Obama and still win.......

Larry - as far as I can see, Mickey Mouse would be the GOP's best chance!

Alan:

You are joking...aren't you?

Cory Booker will save the state for the President.

Even if Christie doesnt run for President in 2012, perhaps they can recruit him for VP, make him an offer he cant refuse!

His presence on the ticket would put NJ in play, and would help in PA, which would be a problem for the Democrats, no question.

If Gov. Christis is indeed a miracle worker, why are New Jersey residents so eager to kick him down to Washington DC? Who would the next governor be?

Ron, Chris Christie is popular in NJ. We like him. He makes common sense statements like asking why the superintendent of a school district is paid more than the Governor. He has finally, after a series of failures Democratic and Republican, slowed the gravy train of taxpayers money. He won on the tunnel issue and saved the state billions. Why he is dangerous is that he a NE Republican running on fiscal rather than social issues, and he can win the Republican primary. That is a dangerous combination to Democrats. And yes NJ will be in play. At the very least the Obama team will have to spend money in the tri-state market which something they will not be budgeting for right now.

Regardless how you want to spin it there's more to it than talk. When President Obama took office the economy was LOSING 700,000 jobs per MONTH. Job growth in 2010 was over 1,000,000 and expected to double that in 2011.

I know it irritates you that a Democratic President led us out of the enormous hole created by Conservative, ideologically-driven, Laissez-Faire economics, but them's the facts.

Really? Christie has a PROVEN track record cutting debt and has improved his state's economy. Now remind me, what has Obama done in over 2 years? Are there jobs? How about that record debt? Gas prices? Food prices? Better yet, let me make this very simple for those of you are politically challenged. Is America better off now than 2 years ago? All the factual numbers say NO!

big hat ..no cattle !

But - plenty on 'chins'!

ROFL...Back to the fat jokes again. Where do you find this original material? It's hilarious.

Christie is just to BIG a target to resist Alan.

Back to the fat jokes again.

By Golly Alan!

How did I miss your 'poutrage' over the Michelle Obama FAT cartoon?

No joke, he really is fat!

Sorry I don't surf to insulting cartoon sites. Its pretty obvious that the First Lady is not fat and that any attacks on her nutrition campaign are infantile and as such I just ignore them.

Sorry I don't surf to insulting cartoon sites.

Sorry, Alan - you don't have to 'surf' insulting sites...

If you read something other than the 'Tea-Bagger' Times you would have been aware of it!

You're too funny!! Please direct me to the "Tea-Bagger" Times? Is this like the Huffington Post? Please enlighten me as to what I'll find there. From your point of view wouldn't I have found the offending cartoon on the front page of the Tea-Bagger Times?

To be honest I find you and your derisive humor pathetic. You add no value to this site and I suspect to anything else so why don't you crawl back into the hole that you come from and make the world a better place by your absence?

And if I ignore you from now do not think its because I have no come back its how I deal with irritants; ignore them and they go away.

My Alan!

Why so touchy this morning? lol Need another cup of tea?

It's okay... we know the truth stings a bit, but you'll get over it... eventually! ;o)

Umm, may-be you were not paying ATTENTION, but DEMOCRATS controlled congress for FOUR FREAKING YEARS! Sorry but Obama and his party had all the power for 2 of those 4 years and what do we have to show for it? People need to forget ideology and start discussing FACTS. Now I understand the Obamaites would rather we not discuss numbers and records but in the end, it's all that matters.....

Dr. Nash---I wish every member of Congress---Democrat or Republican---would take your post to heart. The past few years have demonstrated to us how broken our system is--beholden to outside monied interests, hamstrung by archaic rules and in the end more focused on their own jobs than representing the American people.

Absolutely Nash, the contrast in leadership is astounding. The "My way or the highway" mentality that is so popular with Conservatives ignores the will of large blocks of America and does more to shut down the people's business than to complete it. President Obama's hard work and pragmatic vision has, in spite of an obstructionist GOP, managed to;

Since coming into office on January 21, 2009, President Barack Obama has:

1. Signed an Executive Order on government contracting to fight waste and abuse:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/economy_in_government_contracting

2. Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, restoring basic protections against pay discrimination for women and other workers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtKAKlurRAY

3. Renewed dialogue with NATO and other allies and partners on strategic issues:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/04/04/Afghanistan-and-NATO

4. Announced a plan to responsibly end the war in Iraq:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/washington/28troops.html

5. Provided funding to families of fallen soldiers have expenses covered to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/18/pentagon-will-help-families

6. Ended media blackout on war casualties and the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7986203.stm

7. Signed the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act:
http://www.recovery.gov/About/Pages/The_Act.aspx

8. Launched Recovery.gov to track spending from the Recovery Act, an unprecedented step to provide transparency and accountability through technology:
http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/home.aspx

9. Announced the "Making Home Affordable" home refinancing plan:
http://www.makinghomeaffordable.gov

10. Launched a $15 billion plan to boost lending to small businesses:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-to-small-business-owners

11. Invested heavily in education both as a way to provide jobs now and lay the foundation for long-term prosperity:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/education

12. Provided the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) with more than $1.4 billion to improve services to America’s Veterans:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/veterans

13. Signed an Executive Order establishing the White House Office of Urban Affairs:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/02/AR2009070201410.html

14. Limited lobbyist's access to the White House:
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/obama-outlines-lobbying-restrictions

15. Issued an Presidential Memorandum to restore scientific integrity in government decision-making:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Memorandum-for-the-Heads-of-Executive-Departments-and-Agencies-3-9-09

16. Answered questions at the first online town hall from the White House that were submitted and voted on transparently by the public at WhiteHouse.gov:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h2uzQs2_XBgeHotRBvNhY7DR572g

17. Established a central portal for Americans to find service opportunities:
http://www.serve.gov

18. Launched Business.gov – enabling conversation and online collaboration between small business owners, government representatives and industry experts in discussion forums relevant to starting and managing a business:
http://www.business.gov

19. Appointed the first ever Federal Chief Information Officer to provide management and oversight over federal IT spending:
http://www.cio.gov

20. Signed the Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act on February 4, 2009, which provides quality health care to 11 million kids – 4 million who were previously uninsured:
http://themiddleclass.org/bill/children039s-health-insurance-program-reauthorization-act-2009

21. Issued an Executive Order repealing the Bush-Era restrictions on embryonic stem cell research:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/09/obama-administration-stem-cell-funding

22. Signed the Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act, the first piece of comprehensive legislation aimed at improving the lives of Americans living with paralysis:
http://www.christopherreeve.org/site/c.ddJFKRNoFiG/b.4442889/k.EC4B/Christopher_and_Dana_Reeve_Paralysis_Act.htm

23. Announced creation of a Joint Virtual Lifetime Electronic Record for members of the U.S. Armed Forces to improve quality of medical care:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/04/09/The-Care-They-Were-Promised-and-the-Benefits-That-They-Have-Earned

24. Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/washington/19gates.html

25. Committed to phasing out the expensive F-22 war plane and other outdates weapons systems, which weren't even used or needed in Iraq/Afghanistan:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/06/gates.budget.cuts

26. Provided federal support for stem-cell and new biomedical research:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1908954,00.html

27. Provided new federal funding for science and research labs:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/science/18sfstimulus.html

28. Played a lead role in G-20 Summit that produced a $1.1 trillion deal to combat the global financial crisis:
http://www.g20.org

29. Signed the Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and wasteful spending in the defense procurement and contracting system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_Systems_Acquisition_Reform_Act_of_2009

30. Ordered the closure of the prison at Guantanamo Bay and a review of our detention and interrogation policy, and prohibited the use of torture:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/22/guantanamo.order/index.html

31. Appointed Special Envoys for Climate Change, Southwest Asia, the Middle
East, Sudan, and a Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan:
http://www.america.gov/st/peacesec-english/2009/January/20090122175146idybeekcm1.328677e-02.html

32. Empowered states to enact federal fuel efficiency standards above federal standards:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/us/politics/26calif.html

33. Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect:
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/stimulus/2009/01/08/poll-americans-strongly-back-increase-in-infrastructure-spending.html

34. Increased minority access to capital:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/16/increase-minority-access-to-capital

35. Developed a comprehensive new strategy on Afghanistan and Pakistan that will help defeat Al Qaeda and authorized the deployment of more than 21,000 troops to Afghanistan:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032700836.html

36. Signed the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act which gives the federal government more tools to investigate and prosecute fraud, from lending to the financial system, and creates a bipartisan Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission to investigate the financial practices that brought us to this point:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/05/obama-signs-hou.html

37. Signed the Helping Families Save Their Homes Act, expanding on the Making Home Affordable Program to help millions of Americans avoid preventable foreclosures, providing $2.2 billion to help combat homelessness, and helping to stabilize the housing market for everybody:
http://www.zillow.com/blog/mortgage/2009/05/21/president-obama-signs-helping-families-save-their-homes-act

38. Increased, for the first time in more than a decade, the fuel economy standards for Model Year 2011 for cars and trucks so they will get better mileage, saving drivers money and spurring companies to develop more innovative products:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22650.html

39. Issued a Presidential Memorandum to the Department of Energy to implement more aggressive efficiency standards for common household appliances, like dishwashers and refrigerators. Through this step, over the next three decades, we’ll save twice the amount of energy produced by all the coal-fired power plants in America in any given year:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ApplianceEfficiencyStandards

40. Unveiled a program on Earth Day 2009 to develop the renewable energy projects on the waters of our Outer Continental Shelf that produce electricity from wind, wave, and ocean currents. These regulations will enable, for the first time ever, the nation to tap into our ocean’s vast sustainable resources to generate clean energy in an environmentally sound and safe manner:
http://www.earthday.org

41. Announced a new U.S.-Mexico border initiative:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Administration-Officials-Announce-US-Mexico-Border-Security-Policy-A-Comprehensive-Response-and-Commitment

42. Concluded cyberspace policy review:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-by-the-Press-Secretary-on-Conclusion-of-the-Cyberspace-Review

43. Announced a strategy to address the international nuclear threat:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-By-President-Barack-Obama-In-Prague-As-Delivered

44. Established a new "U.S.-China Strategic and Economic Dialogue":
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-On-Bilateral-Meeting-With-President-Hu-Of-China

45. Announced new policy steps towards Cuba:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/world/americas/05cuba.html

46. Increased minority access to capital:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/16/increase-minority-access-to-capital

47. Issued a Presidential Memorandum on the Freedom of Information Act instructing the Attorney General to issue new guidelines to the government implementing those same principles of openness and transparency in the processing of FOIA requests:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Freedom_of_Information_Act

48. Funded the design of a new Smithsonian National Museum of African American History scheduled to open on the National Mall in 2015:
http://www.facebook.com/NMAAHC

49. The Executive Order on Presidential Records brings those principles to presidential records by giving the American people greater access to these historic documents, severely curtailing the ability to use executive privilege to shield those documents:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Presidential_Records

50. Signed the Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act, a hallmark piece of legislation:
http://www.democrats.org/a/2009/04/edward_m_kenned.php

51. Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act to protect Americans from unfair and deceptive credit card practices:
http://www.newsunfiltered.com/archives/2010/02/pew_finds_credi.html

52. Signed an Executive Order establishing a White House Council on Women and Girls to provide a coordinated Federal response to the challenges confronted by women and girls and to ensure that all Cabinet and Cabinet-level agencies consider how their policies and programs impact women and
families:
http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/11/obamas-council-on-women-and-girls

53. Launched a U.S. financial and banking rescue plan:
http://www.america.gov/st/econ-english/2009/February/20090210163128saikceinawz0.7537805.html

54. Ordered secret detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere to be closed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

55. Ended the previous policy; the US now has a no torture policy and is in compliance with the Geneva Convention standards:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Accord

56. Launched U.S. Auto industry rescue plan:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/31/content_11102980.htm

57. Provided better body armor to our troops:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-26-body-armor_x.htm

58. Authorized cutting the missile defense program by $1.4 billion in 2010:
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=62548

59. Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/25/world/fg-obama-nuclear25

60. Reengaged in the treaties/agreements to protect the Antarctic:
http://jonbowermaster.com/blog/2009/04/obama-calls-for-limits-on-antarctic-tourism

61. Reengaged in the agreements/talks on global warming and greenhouse gas emissions, and addressed the U.N. Climate Change Conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ-SMqh7q3o

62. Supported the first steps of a legally-binding treaty to reduce mercury emissions worldwide:
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2009/2009-02-16-02.asp

63. Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/nov/19/chain-email/chain-e-mail-claims-obama-has-visited-more-countri

64. Managed several natural disasters successfully, including severe winter ice storms and flooding in several states:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drlsi3Ng4jw

65. Provided new car tax credit:
http://www.soundmoneymatters.com/new-car-tax-credit

66. Provided attractive tax write-offs for those who buy hybrid automobiles:
http://www.hybridcars.com/federal-incentives.html

67. Purchased fuel efficient American-made fleet of vehicles for the federal government:
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2009/06/gsa-buys-210-million-worth-of-fuel-efficient-vehicles-from-us-carmakers.html

68. Endorsed Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act of 2009 that would close offshore tax havens:
http://www.financialtaskforce.org/2009/10/27/the-foreign-account-tax-compliance-act-of-2009

69. Nominated Sonia Sotomayor to Supreme Court. She was confirmed and becomes the first Hispanic Supreme Court justice:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/sotomayor-confirmed-by-fu_n_253146.html

70. Helped reverse a downward spiral of the stock market. On January 19, 2009, the last day of President Bush's presidency, the Dow closed at 8,218.22. Today, the Dow closed at 10,309.24:
http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html

71. Earned an unprecedented success rate of 96.7% on winning congressional votes on issues where he took a position. He did even better than legendary arm-twister Lyndon Johnson who had a 93% success rate in 1965:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122436116

72. Provided affordable, high-quality child care to working families:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/244/provide-affordable-high-quality-child-care

73. Restored America's reputation as a global leader that will do the "right thing" in world affairs:
http://pewglobal.org/docs/?DocID=12

74. Issued an executive order to create the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/18/news/economy/obama_debt_commission/index.htm

75. Increased funding for student loans and pell grants for 2010 students:
http://www.ourfuture.org/report/2009031325/obama-s-budget-supporting-students-not-banks

76. Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals:
http://www.law.com/jsp/law/international/LawArticleIntl.jsp?id=1202433002570

77. Provided tax credit to workers thus cutting taxes for 95% of America's working families:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/sep/18/barack-obama/a-credit-for-workers-cuts-taxes-for-middle-class

78. Cracked down on companies that deny sick pay, vacation and health insurance to workers by abusing the employee classification of independent contractor. Such companies also avoid paying Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes for those workers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/18/business/18workers.html

79. Signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act that made it a federal crime to assault an individual because of his or her sexual orientation or gender identity:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/28/hate.crimes/index.html

80. Appointed the first Special Assistant to the President for Disability Policy:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Vice-President-Joe-Biden-Announces-Kareem-Dale-As-Special-Assistant-to-the-Preside

81. Signed the Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act authorizing advance appropriations for the Department of Veterans Affairs by providing two-fiscal year budget authority thus enabling better medical care for veterans. Endorsed by the American Legion, American Veterans, Blinded Veter...ans Association, Disabled American Veterans, Jewish War Veterans, Military Officers Association, Military Order of the Purple Heart, Paralyzed Veterans of America and Vietnam Veterans of America:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-Signing-of-the-Veterans-Health-Care-Budget-Reform-and-Transparency-Act

82. Held impromptu press conference to urge Congress to investigate Anthem Blue Cross and other corporate health insurance companies that raise premiums in high amounts without explanation. Rep. Henry Waxman launches probe. In this case, Anthem Blue Cross wanted to raise premiums 39%. They have now put the increase on hold for two months (as of February 2010). Legislation preventing such increases pending:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100218/hl_nm/us_usa_healthcare_insurers

83. Designated $1.5 billion from the Troubled Asset Relief Program to fund programs at local housing finance agencies in the states hardest hit by the housing crisis: California, Florida, Nevada, Arizona and Michigan. The MBA forecasts that foreclosures will peak in the last quarter of 2010:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35476054/ns/business-stocks_and_economy

84. Protected 300,000 education jobs, such as teachers, principals, librarians, and counselors through the Recovery Act that would have otherwise been lost:
http://www2.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2010/02/02012010a.html

85. Extended discounted COBRA health coverage for the nation's unemployed from 9 months to 15 months. Workers laid off between September 1, 2008 and February 28, 2010 qualify:
http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/23/how-to-get-extended-cobra-health-coverage-subsidies

86. Extended unemployment benefits for 2,000,000 unemployed Americans by 20 weeks. At the time the bill was signed 7,000 unemployed Americans were losing their unemployment benefits each day:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/05/news/economy/Extending_unemployment_benefits/index.htm

87. Eliminated federal funding for abstinence-only education which was significantly increased during the Bush Administration to $176 million annually:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/20/bush-teen-pregnancy-cdc-report

88. Rescinded the Global Gag Rule:
http://www.guttmacher.org/media/inthenews/2009/01/23/index.html

89. Appointed the most diverse Cabinet in history including more women appointees than any other incoming president:
http://www.diversityinc.com/content/1757/article/6319

90. Committed to no permanent military bases in Iraq through the Defense Authorization Act. For your reference:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/132/no-permanent-bases-in-iraq

91. Provided tax credits to first-time home buyers through the Worker, Homeownership, and Business Assistance Act of 2009 to revitalize the U.S. housing market:
http://www.federalhousingtaxcredit.com

92. Provided the Department of Veterans Affairs the largest spending increase in 30 years to improve medical facilities and national cemeteries, and to assist states in acquiring or constructing state nursing homes and extended care facilities:
http://www1.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=1671

93. Strengthened the Endangered Species Act:
http://www.stopextinction.org/media/releases/89-release-president-obama-restores-endangered-species-protections.html

94. Empowered states that legalized medical marijuana to regulate themselves. Fourteen states have allowed some use of marijuana for medical purposes: Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Maryland, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/19/new-medical-marijuana-pol_n_325426.html

95. Enhanced earth mapping:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/345/enhance-earth-mapping

96. Increased funding for national parks and forests in 2010, and plans to do it again for FY 2011:
http://www.defenders.org/newsroom/press_releases_folder/2010/02_01_2010_obamas_budget_includes_key_funding_for_land_and_water.php

97. Changed failing war strategy in Afghanistan:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/01/obama.afghanistan/index.html

98. Allocated special funding to the Labor Department to provide green job training to veterans:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/466/create-a-green-vet-initiative-to-promote-environ

99. Allocated funding to states and the Department of Homeland Security to save thousands of police or firefighter jobs from being cut during the recession:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/188/increase-funding-for-local-emergency-planning

100. Created and sustained 2.1 million jobs and stimulated the economy 3.5% [as of December 31, 2009] through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2311303720100223

http://simplifythepositive.blogspot.com/2010/03/100-accomplishments-of-president-barack.html

Larry,

Yes both sides can put aside ideology when it can benefit the country. However, for two of those years Democrats had to deal with the loyal opposition/back stabbing enemy in the GOP party. Look at but ten or twelve of John B's list above, In my opinion the Repubs made no attempt to help stimulate the economy or create jobs. The only thing the GOP has done lately is to propose job cuts not job creation.

In the two years the Dems had control and in the time since the GOP won back the House, they have not tried to work with the president or the democrats. Every attempt made by the President that would truly benefit the country is met by a slap in the face. By the way, I don't count the tax cut extension deal because that will not benefit the country, the only thing it will do is create more deficits. Remember deficits that thing that your side claims to loathe.

You are right, though politically, records and numbers are all that matters in the end. The GOP can continue to slam on the breaks or try to drive the car in the opposite direction, but at what cost to the country. Your leader's flippant line about upcoming job losses was "So be it". Remember Larry this is real life, people are affected by the GOP attack against government jobs, unions and the middle class.

Dear Larry:

I did not see a single solution to a problem in your post. Playing word games on the internet is fun, but negative ranting has a really short shelf life . . . as in your post is super stale.

It's okay not to post if you don't have anything to say.

Steeler fan and John:

Thanks for sharing your insights . . . and that list . . . quite impressive.

Nashville: you're right. Larry can "list" all he wants and Obama can "sign" all he wants but if the policies are ineffectual and costly ie Health Care Reform as an example, what the hell good are they?

annirich:

Your post seems to be solution free as well. And Health Care Reform reduces out of pocket costs for consumers and reduces the deficit. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant, right?

To Save Money, Save the Health Care Act

How Health Care Reform Reduces the Deficit in 5 Not-So-Easy Steps

(Google the title's above to read more about it.)

So annirich, what's your plan to balance the budget while reducing taxes?

If you don't want to answer that's OK...none of the other Conservatives seem to want to be leaders on that issue either.

John B:

What a post. Can I copy it??? #16.3

Absolutely USN, feel free.

And thanks for the compliment, coming from you that's high praise indeed.

Why? It's dapenate's state, dapenate deserves a say, and deserves to be heard.

I'm sick of being told by Conservatives to be quiet, that my opinion doesn't matter. For years I was polite while Conservatives shouted over the top of me. I was accused of treason for years just for disagreeing with the Republican president. My views were dismissed as being unimportant while I've watched my fears of middle class struggle, educational decline, and infrastructure collapse become real. My opinion didn't matter when I felt that going to war in Iraq was an expensive, destructive folly. It will never happen again. I won't be silenced, and I won't just shake my head and walk away when crazy people try to dominate.

Neither should dapenate.

John B:

How true. I agree that everybody has a right to post on this board their thoughts and opinions. Dapenate, keep posting and ignore the Cyber Bully. See the first post on FT for a definition of these guys.

Children do not scare me.

Unless they look like the Chuckie doll.

John B., right on!

Amen brother! We spoke loud and clear last Nov but apparently, the people in power did not get the message.

Couple of things to keep in mind sunshine, there are at least as many conservatives in this country as their are libbies..

This country has the 2nd amendment and my state has castle laws, when you get to my house you want to make sure no one tries to throw anything at it. or burn it, or you will have some serious health problems.

Jerry. Not sure how a peaceful demonstration by the American middle class worker poses any threat to you? You might want to check your paranoia at the door.

Daniels went to CPAC. That pretty much disqualifies him as "mainstream".

nonsense

Dengerfield. Could you provide the source for you statement that Cuomo is asking for an 8-10% reduction of salaries for state workers?

Follow the links provided, as nothing in that post is "My statement", but simply excerpts from the articles, and the transcript of the speech.

Of all the things Gov. Christie said, I like that he says he is not looking for the President to fail. I have never understood those who say that---seems to me we should all wish for any President to have tremendous success---to benefit us all.

Dangerfield. Read the speech, followed the links. I did not find anything about Cuomo cutting salaries, beyond what Christie said. I just wondered since you emphasized that part of his speech if you had corroborated it?

Also coming out in force will be the younger, more diverse electorate that showed up in 2008. GAME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AF: Also coming out in force will be the younger, more diverse electorate that showed up in 2008

They got younger since 2008?

And would this be the same "younger and more diverse electorate" that will be forced to buy health insurance because of ObamaCare? Oh wait, that requirement will be only for the ones that managed to age beyond 26, otherwise they can be on momzies and dadzies policy. Never did get an answer on when the 26 and under crowd have their own kids, are the grand-kiddies also covered by granpa and granma's policies?

And all the youngsters will have to be covered by the older generation, because there just doesn't appear to be any jobs for the young'ns these days.

AF: GAME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fur'sure.

No, young voters tend not to vote in midterm elections. Looking at voting rates for 18-29yo's in recent elections;

2002 midterm 22%

2004 Presidential 49%

2006 Midterm 25%

2008 Presidential 51%

Expect a much higher proportion of young voters in 2012 than 2010. As such the electorate will be decidedly more Liberal.

Yes! In Maine the Tea Party Governor has proposed cutting back retirement benefits for state workers while looking for a tax cut on the estates of people leaving more than a million dollars to their heirs.

Quit your whining. You people sound like the world owes you a living. What's wrong with folks eavingtheir estates to their heirs? They worked for it and should be able to do what they want with it. Why do state workers feel they should get a piece of what evceryone leaves behind?

You've bought the BS pedaled by the Repubs hook, line and sinker. Stupid is as stupid does.