You are right on the mark.

When are the repubs going to restart the conversation about creating jobs!!

Amy and the other libs who cry about the Bush tax cuts vs. revenues collected.

Check out the revenue line on the graph above. Which way was that line going after the tax cuts took effect in 2004.

Amy that's great you are planning on working until 70, but forcing people that may not want or be able to is cruel and unjust, one size does not fit all, Congress is going to push it as far as they can with complete disregaurd to the well being of people, that really is all I am sure of, collateral damage is acceptable on the home-front to them, I believe Congress is going to test the threshold of the American peoples good nature on this one, they won't back off until something tragic occurs, which is a damn shame.

Not fair bob. You are asking them to observe objective facts. That's not the Media Matters way.

So sad to see those b's turn into T's.

Wow look at how revenue is projected to go up, due to the recovering economy. Now, if we could get Social Security and Medicare under control we'll be all set.

So Amy what do you think is the basis of those revenue projections? Think they might just be a tad unrealistic?

It isn't necessary to raise the retirement age and that should be the last resort. People are ignoring the frequent medical reports that many young teenagers and young adults are obese, they may or may not be able to work longer. There are currently people whose jobs are physically demanding, and in their 60's, they cannot continue doing those jobs without risk of injury. They have bad backs, leg and neck problems, arm and shoulder problems. Those same people end up being injured on the job not because of carelessness but because of lack of physical strength as they age--that adds to workers' compensation expenses for companies.

Amy: Wow look at how revenue is projected to go up, due to the recovering economy. Now, if we could get Social Security and Medicare under control we'll be all set.

What in the world were we all worried about? Here we were all upset because the tax revenue was so much less than the government spending these past few years! Turns out all that worrying was for nothing. My goodness, lets just go off and spend that projected revenue!!

Happy days are here again!!

american-2051576

The Republicans plan have/are killing people.

In the US, Men and women between 45 and 54 years old have the highest suicide rates in the country among nine different age groups as economy tanks and GOP blocks jobless benefits.

http://economiccrisis.us/2010/08/rising-suicide-rate-worldwide-linked-economic-crisis-expert/

Yes Bev we know, we all heard Mr. Grayson. Except see dear, that whole thing really didn't work for him then, nor does it work for you now.

How long should job benefits last? Why not just forever?

I heard last night that when John Kyl retires, he will receive about $140,000 per year pension. The same is likely true for all the other Senate retirees, right and left, although the amount would likely vary due to years spent in Congress.

Beverly in Chicago

what in the world happened here,

2000: $1.79 trillion/$236.2 billion surplus
2001: $1.86 trillion/$128.2 billion surplus
2002: $2.01 trillion/$158.8 billion deficit
2003: $2.16 trillion/$377.6 billion deficit
In 2001 we increasaed spending from 186 trillion to 201 trillion but went from 128 billion in surplus to 158 billion in deficts. some how this does not add up. then in 2003 our deficts more than doubled. 236 billion in surplus to 1.6 trillion in deficts 10 years later.
then in 2008 to 2009 while Bush was still in office we doubled the deficits again, was the stimulus included in this.

2008: $2.98 trillion/$458.6 billion deficit
2009: $3.51 trillion/$1.4 trillion deficit

Jody, Iowa

I heard last night that when John Kyl retires he will receive about $140,000 per year pension.

$1,680,000 a year plus his SS. Yet, he didn't want to create jobs or extend UI for people who helped pay his salary. What a despicable, big-headed ba$-tar$d

Spanky-

Yes Bev we know, we all heard Mr. Grayson. Except see dear, that whole thing really didn't work for him then, nor does it work for you now.

How long should job benefits last? Why not just forever?

Your lack of compassion is typical right wing selfishness, greed, and stupidity.

Do you think it's fair to give big oil companies big tax loopholes when they pay nothing? That money could be used on infrastructure to avoid the forever as you put it. That'd be returning to forever i.e. the land of the clouds because they couldn't survive.

Who me? Not compassionate? Good golly no BEv. I care very deeply for my family which is why I same my money like a MOFO. 1/3 goes to expenses. 1/3 back into the business, and 1/3 to savings, 401k and education funds.

How about you? You got a nice savings account? Own investment properties that produce income? Did you start retirement planning and savings when you were 19? I did.

As for the corporate tax issue, I'd love to engage but honestly I give up. Your clear lack of understanding precludes my ability to have a meaningful discussion. But I will pose this query: who do you suppose owns, and therefore benefits from all those corporate profits? Go ahead, look it up. I think you are going to be mighty surprised.

Use her correct name It's Beverly not BEv you self righteous moron.

Timothy C-2601920

Use her correct name It's Beverly not BEv you self righteous moron.

Thank you Timothy C

Conversing with this moron is a fruitless endeavor.

First of all, he is forever trying to denigrate someone.

Second of all, he is/ has taken a vow to live in fantasy island

Finally, he refuses to accept facts.

Spanky, you idiot, you missed the point. I don't care if you started your planning at the age of 9. The middle and poor working classes savings and investments have/are being swiped out because of the Republicans taking from middle and poor working classes what they worked so hard to build.

Spanky, taking money away from the worker bees does not grow the economy.

Since you are a selfish, sh!t flinging. baboon, I don't expect you to either understand it or care. Maybe when your stock of bananas finally are all gone you'll understand.

Have you not watched what is going on here in America? People are facing more and more obstacles to their survival. The National Guard in Wisconsin is being called because working people are taking a stand for not letting the crooks and liars Union Bust or take more money out of their pockets.

If you want to continue throwing you stupid little curve balls to slant what is actually taking place today in this country, it is not gonna work with me and other intelligent people.

I repeat people are dying in this country because of Republicans.

More suicides under Conservative rule

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2263690.stm

This is a very real and trending pattern under the Gop?TP

A Disillusioned 99'er Shares His Disappointment With The American Dream, Welcomes Death
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/disillusioned-99er-shares-his-disappointment-american-dream

Spanky,
Will you thumb you nose at a person like this person who has exhausted everything he has?

Spanky since you live in a fantasy world a refuse to accept reality, I thought I would post this for your discretion.

A Disillusioned 99'er Shares His Disappointment With The American Dream, Welcomes Death

From Mark's letter:

To the unemployed, sick, disabled and poor:

Hello,

I'm unemployed over two years now, a 99er without any benefits for three months. I followed Unemployed Friends almost from its start, never posted until now, but am grateful for my time with you all. I did as asked with calls and e-mails, etc. I've a confession to make to you all. I'm a criminal.

I've obeyed the 10 commandments and all laws except: I'm unemployed and that's now a crime, I'm poor and that's a crime, I'm worthless surplus population and that's a crime, I'm a main street American Citizen born and raised in the USA and that's now a crime, and I'm euthanizing myself as I write this note -- so arrest my corpse. This isn't a call for help, the deed is done, it's not what I wanted. Death is my best available option. It's not just that my bank account is $4, that I've not eaten in a week, not because hunger pangs are agonizing (I'm a wimp), not because I live in physical and mental anguish, not because the landlady is banging on the door non-stop and I face eviction, not that Congress and President have sent a strong message they no longer help the unemployed. It's because I'm a law abiding though worthless, long-term unemployed older man who is surplus population. Had I used my college education to rip people off and steal from the elderly, poor, disabled and main street Americans I would be wearing different shoes now -- a petty king. Hard work, honesty, loving kindness, charity and mercy, and becoming unemployed and destitute unable to pay your bills are all considered foolishness and high crimes in America now. Whereas stealing and lying and cheating and being greedy to excess and destroying the fabric of America is rewarded and protected -- even making such people petty king and petty queens among us.

Since the end of 2008, when corporate America began enjoying the resumption of growth, profits have swelled from an annualized pace of $995 billion to the current $1.66 trillion as of the end of September 2010. Over the same period, the number of non-farm jobs counted by the Labor Department has slipped from 13.4 million to 13 million -- there is no recovery for the unemployed and main street. We taxpayers have handed trillions of dollars to the same bank and insurance industry that started our economic disaster with its reckless gambling. We bailed out General Motors. We distributed tax cuts to businesses that were supposed to use this lubrication to expand and hire. For our dollars, we have been rewarded with starvation, homelessness and a plague of fear -- a testament to post-national capitalism.

Twelve years ago, I lost the last of my family. Ten years ago, I lost the love of my life, couldn't even visit him in the hospital because gays have no rights. I fought through and grieved and went on as best I could. Seven years ago, I was diagnosed with Diabetes and Stage 2 high blood pressure with various complications including kidney problems, mild heart failure, Diabetic Retinopathy. These conditions are debilitating and painful. I am on over eight prescribed medications, which is very difficult without insurance and income. But I struggled on and my primary caregiver was very pleased with my effort overtime with my A1C at seven. Still these physical disabilities have progressively worsened, and I have had a harder and harder time functioning in basic ways. All the while, I give thanks to God because I know there are many more worse off than me -- and I tried to help by giving money to charities and smiling at people who looked down and sharing what little I had.

I am college educated and worked 35 years in management, receiving written references and praise from every boss for whom I worked. Yet, after thousands of resumes, applications, e-mails, phone calls, and drop ins, I've failed to get a job even at McDonalds. I've discovered there are three strikes against me -- most 99ers will understand. Strike one -- businesses are not hiring long-term unemployed -- in fact many job ads now underline "the unemployed need not apply." Strike two -- I am almost 60 years old. Employers prefer hiring younger workers who demand less and are better pack mules. Strike three -- for every job opening I've applied, there are over 300 applicants according to each business who allow a follow up call. With the U3 unemployment holding steady at 9.6percent and U6 at 17 percent for the past 18 months, the chances of me or any 99er landing a job is less than winning the Mega Million Jackpot. On top of that, even the most conservative economists admit unemployment will not start to fall before 2012 and most predict up to seven years of this crap.

I believe the Congress and President have no intention of really aiding the unemployed -- due to various political reasons and their total removal from the suffering of most Americans, their cold-hearted, self-serving natures. Had they really wanted to help us, they could have used unspent stimulus monies or cut foolish costs like the failed wars or foreign aid, and farm subsidies. The unspent stimulus money alone cold have taken care of ALL unemployed persons for five years or until the unemployment rate reached 7 percent if Congress and the President really wanted to help us -- and not string us all along with a meager safety net that fails every few months. In any case, if I were to survive homelessness (would be like winning the mega-millions) and with those three strikes against me, in seven more years, I'll be near 70 with the new retirement age at 70 -- now who will hire an old homeless guy out of work for nine years with just a few years until retirement?

So, here I am. Long term unemployed, older man, with chronic health problems, now totally broke, hungry, facing eviction. My landlady should really be an advocate for the unemployed -- she bangs on my door demanding I take action. A phone call and a "please" are not enough for her -- she is angry. She is right to be angry with me, I am unemployed -- as apparently everyone is now angry with us unemployed.

Two hundred and eleven and social services cannot help single men. Food banks and other charities are unable to help any more folks -- they are overwhelmed with the poor in this nation. So I have the "freedom" to be homeless and destitute and "pursue happiness" in garbage cans and then die -- yay for America huh? It's the end of November and cold. A diabetic homeless older person will experience amputations in the winter months. So I will be raiding garbage cans for food, as my body literally falls apart, a foot here, a finger there. I have experienced and even worked with pain from my diseases -- hardship I can face. I just cannot muster the courage to slowly die in agony and humiliation in the gutter.

I have no family, I have no friends. For the past two years, I've had nobody to talk with as people who knew me react to the "unemployed" label as if it were leprosy and contagious. I am not a bad person, in fact people really like me. But everyone seems to be on a tight budget these days and living in incredible fear. It is hopeless since we all are hearing more and more that we unemployed are to blame for unemployment, that we are just lazy, that we are no good, that we are sinners, that we are druggies, yet we are the victims who suffer and are punished while the robber baron banksters and tycoons become senators, congress, presidents and petty kings. So the only option left for me is merciful self euthanasia.

It is with a heavy heart that I have set my death in motion, but what I am facing is not living. So off I go, I have made peace with God and placed my burden on Jesus and He forgives me. This nation has become evil to the core, with cold-hearted politicians and tycoons squeezing what little Main Street Americans have left. It is not the America into which I was born -- the land of the free and the home of the brave with kind folks who help neighbors -- it is now land of the Tycoon-haves and the rest of us have-nots who march into hopelessness and despair.

Every unemployed person I have met over these past two years have been saintly. Sharing what little they have, and being charitable -- being kind and patient and supportive. Isn't it amazing that we Americans who suffer so much, have not taken to the streets in violence, riots or gotten out the guillotines and marched on tycoons and Washington in revolt as would happen in most other nations? But rather we plead with deaf politicians to please help us. We don't demand huge sums -- just 300 bucks a week, barely enough to cover housing for most. Most of all we say, please help us get a job, please allow us dignity.

I can't help but juxtapose our plight to the tycoons and politicians. They are never satisfied with their enormous wealth, and always want more millions no matter whom it hurts. They STEAL from pension funds, banks, the people and government, and little Wall Street investors. Then rather than face punishment, they become petty kings in this world. They are disloyal to America, unpatriotic, and serve their own foreign UN-American greedy causes and demand more and more and more. I feel that this is not the nation into which I was born. I was born in America, the land of the free and the home of the brave. America, where people give as much as they receive. America, where all people work for the common good, and try to leave a better and more prosperous nation for the next generation. America, where people help their neighbors and show charity and mercy. This new America is alien to me -- it is an America of greed and corruption and avarice and mean spirited selfishness and hatred of the common good -- it is an America of savage beasts roaring and tearing at the weak, and bullying the humble and peacemakers and poor and those without means to defend themselves. I am not welcome here anymore. I don't belong here anymore. It's as if some evil beast controls government, the economy, and our lives now.

I must go now, my home is someplace else. Goodbye and God bless you all. God bless the unemployed and poor and elderly and disabled. God bless America and the American people except the tycoons and politicians -- may God retain the sins of tycoons and politicians and phony preachers and send them to the Devil.

Mark

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/disillusioned-99er-shares-his-disappointment-american-dream

beverly (post 4.1) - I am sure that Johnb would have someting to say about your "supposed" cause and effect argument or on causality, correlation and statistics you are trying to make.

Once again it has to be said, the republicans wanted the program to be funded rather than just added to the deficit. And still we have unused stimulas funds that could have been redirected.

Your post (4.9) - I do marvel at your capacity to misdirect while still maintaining an air of righteousness. I wonder if Dr King would agree with your conclusions.

Beverly - I must ask this question of you..."Have you stopped beating your son yet?" Yes or no?

Have you no compassion??

american-2051576

Once again it has to be said, the republicans wanted the program to be funded rather than just added to the deficit. And still we have unused stimulas funds that could have been redirected.

Republicans and 'Baggers' screw and lie to the people to help the wealthy and corporatio­ns; plain and simple put.

Republicans and PAYGO-- President Obama and other administration officials said offsetting that spending with other spending cuts or tax hikes would be unwise because it would undercut the ability of the stimulus money to jump-start the economy.

Essentially it's like this-- PAYGO means Re-pubs are not willing to PAY and the Republicans will GO away with jobs to an offshore place.

It is funny to me that you reference Dr King by glossing over the real hurt here in America.

Again, as I told your bud Spank(er) ...

A man can't ride your back unless it's bent -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

I stand tall against you and the Spank(er) bullsh!t.

FYI: I don't condone violence.

beverly - and still stimulus funds are left unspent, wasn't it navy retired, johnb and others who implied that $1 spent on unemployment returned $1.64 to the economy? Seems that by those calculations it would have been better to use those same stimulus funds (already budgeted) to go towards UE extensions than to create additional debt.

I believe that Dr King was a great man cut down in his prime. He believed in his fellow man and was against the injustices one group of people can deliver against another group. Those same injustices today are not limited only to skin color as in the day of Dr. King.

Today it is very apparent that it is ideology against ideology regardless of race, creed, religion, gang affiliation or politics, but yet you insist that it is all the republicans fault and do everything possible to paint that picture without showing the capacity of seeing bipartisanship or compromise as having a positive role. A role I might add that obama is trying to take by trying to capture reagans ability to compromise and to sell his ideas.

Perhaps my images and ideals of what Dr. King was trying to realize are at odds with what he really was trying to do as I was just an easily impressionable pup during his time. I don't believe that his "I had a dream..." was just about colour, but something more in line with all people working towards a common and responsible goal. Yes I know, rather idealistic of me but I still don't believe that the path is one of which government is to control us from the cradle to the grave.

You may say that you don't condone violence but you have no problem with instigating others to do it. Remember, language has consequences!

Dude, what graph are you looking at? The pretty purple line just goes up and up and up.

Spanky,

Really stay focused my friend those numbers on that graph after 2012 are estimates based on what? There's been no actual budget submitted for the out years. Maybe they just based it on healthcare expense but really I wouldnt look past 2012 because they're really are just assumptions after that. Thats why when the budget that was submit calls for saving ten years I look at at it very skeptically. We may be in a budget busting conflict ten years from now. Remember 9/11 noone cared about the cost of getting retribution we just wanted justice.

Pablo, the media doesn't do a good job reporting on the successes except once in awhile but they're very good at discussing nonexistent death panels and killing grandma.

Don't forget, Bush 43 did not include the costs of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, and of natural disasters like Katrina in his budgets. Those were handled separately as "extras".

UCG - I'm focused my man. Those are their estimates and they still look horrible.

And here's a question...because I don't know how this graph is counting cashflows...but wouldn't the drop from 2009 to 2010 be due to the stimulus spending being shown in 2009 and not being there for 2010? The greatest increase in spending on the graph occurs from 2008 to 2009 and it's followed by one of the only decreases...that leads me to believe that the full stimulus spending was shown in 2009 and the only reason for the decrease was no stimulus...really, if you exclude stimulus spending, you'd still see a steady increase in government spending...regardless of who's the President or who controls Congress.

Frank - the slope of spending, if you account for the gaps, tends to be a steady rise from 2000 through 2010. the interesting this is that the slope for the REVENUES is flatter, with a 'rosy' projection for 2011 and beyond.

Personally, I think that REVENUE Delta is too high for 2012 through 2016. It does not fit the 'trend' of the flatness of the slope of rise of revenues from 2000.

With that being said, I agree with your Frank, the projections from 2012 to 2016 are unrealistic as drawn.

However -

We are still seeing the difference between the revenue and the spending slopes increase, and this is where they should be DECREASING (my opinion).

Just looking at the spending curve - and cutting from there only - will NOT solve our problems (you can see that from this graph). We have to go back to 1997 and 2002 where we see the intersections of the slopes, and to intersect the slopes we have to RAISE REVENUES as well as REDUCE SPENDING.

This graph CLEARLY shows that the 'cut, cut, cut' crowd is blowing smoke.

I'm just sayin'.

So why doesn't the spending line EVER go below the revenue line?

It just doesn't seem like these folks understand the nature of the problem. This really is not hard - stop spending more than you have.

Hey Pietro it kinda seems if they cut back spending to less than the revenue the problem would be solve, no? Too simple?

Spanky - the difference between the slope of the lines bothers me.

The two lines intersect in 1997 and 2002. That is the OPTIMAL level we needed to be. Notice that at those intersections, what we see is the spending was less than the revenues collected.

So far, so good.

What happens next - especially from 2007 through 2009 - notice the difference between the slopes of the lines widen considerably. I would estimate - and this is a best guess - that if we had attacked the difference between spending (top line) and revenues (bottom line) at that point in time - like in 2004 or 2005 - we COULD have just reduced spending to bring the two lines back into equilibrium like in 1997 and 2002, without having to do much with revenue generation.

Now that there is such a BIG gap between the two, just trying to bend the top line will not be sufficient. We will need to bend the BOTTOM line as well to get us back into a position where the spending is in line with the revenues we collect.

As you can also see, the spending and the revenues are on an INCREASING slope; that means that we are spending MORE and we are also collecting MORE revenues. This would debunk the 'stop spending' crowd because, as a country, WE CANNOT. The graph shows that, well, graphically.

I guess the argument(s) should be that we DECREASE the RATE OF SPENDING and INCREASE the RATE OF REVENUES to a point where there is equilibrium.

Finally, this graph CLEARLY proves that we are not 'BROKE', as the Speaker of the House so poingantly stated.

I doubt the WH used the most optimistic forecast numbers because I've seen a wide range of economist forecasts from doom and gloom to robust; it is likely, they used middle of the road ones. The graph provides an interesting look at where we've been and where we could go. Bending the top line of expenditures too quickly can interfere with the out years growth.

Pietro, great points.

Pietro - what is your definition of spending more than you have?

What do you call it when your expenses exceed revenue? Care to take a look at the Bankruptcy Code? It contains some very insightful definitions that would precisely define that pretty chart.

And again, what would happen if we continued to collect the same amount of revenue, but spent less than we collected. There's a definition for that:solvent.

It really is easy if you try.

Spanky - I am glad you live in such a black-and-white' world.

I explained in my post that our revenues as well as our expenditures are on an UPWARD slope.

What part of UPWARD do you have a problem with?

That means that our budget picture is FLUID; it changes based on external stimuli. That budget picture would change dramatically of we had 1) more revenues and/or 2) a reduction in spending.

The change in the slopes are a problem, especially in 2009. However, they are still UPWARD slopes, meaning that we have more money flowing in the economy than we had 10 years ago.

We NEED to CONTINUE to collect more revenues; since this is FLUID situation, we also need to reassess our expenditures.

In other words, Spanky, the United States has good cash flow. We are using that cash flow to stay ahead of the creditors. That is a crude analogy, but crude may be the only think I can get you, Spanky, to understand out situation.

The bottom line is this - we can get back to equilibrium, but we need to bend BOTH lines, not just one. Since the situation is FLUID, a small amount of impetus will go a long way in bending those lines however we want to them to bend.

Finally, this graph CLEARLY proves that we are not 'BROKE'

No, we're not broke. Taxes are still being collected, services are still be provided. But America is like the loser with 15 maxed out credit cards, barely able to keep up with the interest payments every month, moving the balance of the credit card debt from one card to another and hoping the bankers don't catch that little shell game, saying that we'll get this debt problem solved "soon", but then going out and buying that super-cool 58 inch HDTV on credit because we just have to have it! And we can afford it! Well, as long as those current interest rates hold steady on all those credit cards, and as long as we keep our good cash flow!

You know how this story ends, correct?

Pietro you really are precious.

I know many people who make lots of money. But many still spend more than they make. That's a "crude" but real problem for them, then their creditors when they go BK.

All that has to happen is the expense line to go down. I know, simple right?

Now why is it I think you disagree? What shall we socialize this time?

All that has to happen is the expense line to go down. I know, simple right?

Actually, Spanky, NO, it is NOT that simple.

Remember that I told you that the budget is FLUID, correct?

YOU do know what FLUID means?

In case you have forgotten, it means that it is NOT static. It means it responds to STIMULI, either internal or external, and that stimuli has a resultant result or effect.

How do I know the budget is fluid? It is because there is a UPWARD SLOPE on the lines that have been drawn. If the budget was STATIC, the lines would be more jagged, showing where there is an incerease/decrease.

Because the budget is fluid, the lines oscillate. The trick here is to apply the right external stimuli to the items you want to see change and the lines move in that direction.

The problem is that in 2009, the gap between expenditures and revenues widens considerably. That means that you CANNOT 'just move the expense line down' because there is not enough stimulus in 'just cutting expenses' to bring the equation back into equilibrium. You have to SIMULTANEOUSLY apply varying stimuli to the top AND bottom lines to bring the lines back into equilibrium.

So NO, Spanky, It ain't that simple.

Absolutely. This is a great aid when making arguments for/against our budget issues.

My take is that we see a precipitous drop in revenues in 2009 as well as an increased spending 'bump' approximately the same time. I am sure that we can argue either way WHY we have that sort of bump, but it is clear that we can STILL reach equilibrium - and still grow (as the slopes of the lines are upward, not downward) as a country.

I guess the argument is on how we get to that point.

Kudos to you, Ali, Mark and Domenico, for providing so much information for us to analyse.