You're absolutely right. Worse still, of course, is that this is probably going to serve as an excuse for Mubarak to invalidate the protests as violent and/or anarchist in nature and use the claim to keep his grip on power.

And the Iranians didn't tell Carter that they were going to take the embassy. But by all means, do continue to support the Brotherhood, you know as long as they renouce violence and thuggery. Which means that the White House is fully aware of their violent and thuggish behavior.

What could go wrong?

Navy, President Obama won't be drawn into this. His & our concern should be"Chaos in the streets can't go on Forever"!

The Egyptian Military will make sure that Mubarek keeps his Word!

No One Else !

It's never easy playing Both sides, but right now as fragile as the World economy is, The Suez Canal remaining free to pass thru, should be Our's & the Worlds main Focus. Oil is above $90(gone up $5 since this started). Adding 6,000 miles to a journey just does'nt make much sense to me.

Only when Isreal is in Danger, will President Obama come with a Firmer hand & not until then.

Perhaps Obama can start to do somethng about the price of oil? This situation will only drive prices up, as did Obama's moritorium on drillingin the Gulf. How many rigs have already, or about to leave?

Bottom line is we have more than enough oil here in the good old US of A. Time to stop with the enviromental bull and start drilling. You want to pretend there is some VIABLE alternative to oil, great. But until you prove it, I think it'd be a real good idea to get to producing more oil and build a bunch of nuke plants NOW.

Or we could continue to pander to enviromentalists and do nothing. I'm sure that tax payer subsidized Volt will be a game changer.

Spanky, although they've tried to many times, Republican's are'nt Good at Seeing into the Future. President Reagon supporting the Mujhadeen(BinLaden) against the Russians. President Reagon supporting Saddam. Trying to Police the World is coming back to bite us in butt.

Democracy is Not what we say it is, "It is what it Is"!

President Obama's foreign policy is slowly takeing us away from Years of supporting Dictators.

I say, lets see where it takes us.

Could'nt be No worse than the Previous 30-40 years of Republican Foreign Policy!

Spanky, we went thru this a couple days ago, try & keepup.

If you or anyone else Can Guarentee that Oil drilled in the USA, will stay here to be used, then I'm with ya.

Until then, just STFU with your Drill Baby drill Nonsense!

Spanky... what's with the Anti-Obama rant? is that all you are here to do? give it a rest, will ya?

I get it.... per you,

• the moratorium was not a good idea
• the stimulus was not a good idea
• you loath the health care reform
• you hate the presidents appointments
• you don't like the presidents wife
• you have absolutely no interest in seeing this prez succeed
• etc, etc, etc

And yeah, I get the carter thing was a DIG at Obama.... he's carter-like, right? If I remember correctly, Carter did predict our current level of dependency on foreign oil and actually put a plan together for alternative forms of energy.... and guess who gutted the funding for these... right - RONALD REAGAN..........he then lowered taxes, deregulated a lot of industries and rocket deficits.....

Golly Rick it just seems to me that if there is a lot more oil on the market, i.e. and increased supply, then the effect would be a reduction in the cost of oil. It would also effect the short term price increases when issues like middle east unrest arise. Or are you opposed to increasing supply? Is there any reason why we should not produce more domestic supply?

Trunde, unless I'm mistaken, Carter was not advised in advance that the embassy would be taken. That is very similiar to the point of this article, no? My other post was about oil and the related price increase that will occur domestically due to this issue. Problem is gas prices and energy as a whole are going up at an alarming rate. Yet it appears to me that not only is nothing being done to correct, the things that have been done - moratoruim, failure to build Nuke plants, are making matters worse.

But hey, if you want to raise the other issues, by all means. But do tell me Tunde, what was Carter's plan, and how do you think it would have worked out if implemented? Also for a bonus round compare and contrrast the "rocket deficits" of Reagan to the last year and a half.

"Bottom line is we have more than enough oil here in the good old US of A."

That statement was debunked by the experts during the 2008 campaign. Don't you remember T. Boone Pickins slogan "We can't drill our way out of this?" The US uses 12 million barrels a day. Saudi Arabia only produces 9 million a day. You really think the US has more oil than Saudi Arabia?

And the kicker is, solar, tidal and wind energy are all non-polluting AND renewable. Burning up oil for energy, when we will still need it for petroleum products, seems incrediblly wasteful when other sources are much better.

Furthermore, drilling for oil is expensive, dangerous and creates hazardous waste. If a wind mill falls over in the ocean, what do you get? A big splash. The fishermen in the Gulf will tell you its not so simple when an oil rig explodes.

Thats My Spanky, let's just suckit all out of the Earth for OUR consumption, without regard to other's who'll behere when You & I are pushingup daisies.

You wonder why we call yall Republican's "Me Firster's"!

If BigOil was gonna do something to help America, they'd have built a couple more refinery's here in America in the last 30-40 years, Doncha Think?

I live less than 45 miles from Ashland Oil Refinery, any reasonable person woulf think that living that close, one would'nt havta Pay all the added cost associated with transportation of a product to market.

Oop's, wrong, we pay $3.16 a gallon, so Cost & More have Nothing to do withit!

Spanky-

And the Iranians didn't tell Carter that they were going to take the embassy. But by all means, do continue to support the Brotherhood, you know as long as they renouce violence and thuggery. Which means that the White House is fully aware of their violent and thuggish behavior.

What could go wrong?

Well, something like the last chapters in the bible coming true; if you read the bible, for one .

Secondly, It was the republican right which upset the "Middle East" and set up dictators wheresoever they could including South America.

Thirdly, what proof do you have the President is supporting the Muslim Brotherhood. Those are paid thugs on horse and camels supporting Mubaarak causing the violence. See post #3.1 - Wed Feb 2, 2011 12:45 PM EST

Finally, it was RAYGun who started the surprise in Iran

Stop being some chowderhead, turn off FOX NOISE, and educate yourself.

The leaders of the U.S. exposed themselves to the possibility of blackmail by Iran or Israel. Third, the events suggest that the arms-for-hostage deal that in the twilight of the Reagan Presidency became known as the Iran-contra affair, instead of being an aberration, was in fact the re-emergence of a policy that began even before the Reagan-Bush Administration took office."

"A top aide to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat has dropped a new clue about the original 'October Surprise' mystery of 1980: the name of the Republican operative who sought the Palestine Liberation Organization’s help to block President Jimmy Carter’s negotiations to free 52 Americans then being held hostage in Iran.

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/coupreaganbush.htm

It's the speculators licking their chops to exploit the situation for a bubble.

Solar? Tidal? and wind. Ok Amy which of those do you use to heat your house or power your car? None of those are viable, it's just that simple. And yes we have more than enough oil here.

And really, was the use of oil and the most efficient and current best energy sourse de-bunked "during the 2008 campaign?" Slogan don't de-bunk.

And Rick do you think it's "Big Oil" that has prevented building refinerys? The enviormentalists and regulations played no role? By the way here in Ca we get to "switch to a summer blend." Who's idea you think that is, and do you think it's cheaper?

But I do gotta admit - I hate paying more for gas, but it does do wonders on the traffic congestion.

Spanky, If I'm not mistaken Reagan didn't inherit an economy on the verge of collapse. What he did do was spend, spend, spend the military and oh the Supply Side Economics (known as Voo Doo Economics by some in the GOP). How about David Stockman's accessment of furthering the Bush Tax Cuts?

IF there were such a thing as Chapter 11 for politicians, the Republican push to extend the unaffordable Bush tax cuts would amount to a bankruptcy filing. The nation’s public debt — if honestly reckoned to include municipal bonds and the $7 trillion of new deficits baked into the cake through 2015 — will soon reach $18 trillion. That’s a Greece-scale 120 percent of gross domestic product, and fairly screams out for austerity and sacrifice. It is therefore unseemly for the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, to insist that the nation’s wealthiest taxpayers be spared even a three-percentage-point rate increase.

More fundamentally, Mr. McConnell’s stand puts the lie to the Republican pretense that its new monetarist and supply-side doctrines are rooted in its traditional financial philosophy. Republicans used to believe that prosperity depended upon the regular balancing of accounts — in government, in international trade, on the ledgers of central banks and in the financial affairs of private households and businesses, too. But the new catechism, as practiced by Republican policymakers for decades now, has amounted to little more than money printing and deficit finance — vulgar Keynesianism robed in the ideological vestments of the prosperous classes.

Those wacky Conservatives. I do believe he does know something of your hero Ronald Reagan's finanical policies.

The US produces 4.95M barrels of oil a day, which is about 5.8% of the World's 85.2M/day. So even if we were able to double production, it would drop prices by 6% max.

Oil companies don't want to increase production. They would rather sell low annual volume at high prices than high volume at low prices. Since there is a finite amount of oil, they are going to try to get as much revenue per barrel as possible.

What we should do is develop an economy that depends very little on oil, so when the middle east runs out, we can ramp up production and sell our oil at huge prices to the countries that depend heavily on it.

Solar? Tidal? and wind. Ok Amy which of those do you use to heat your house or power your car?

You didn't ask me, Spankster, but since when did I ever let that bother me?

I use the hot air generated here to heat my apartment. A monster Mac helps me distribute it evenly.

Toasty.

Of course you use hot air - your a lawyer and hence have a never ending supply.

What was your line the other day softballs/straight lines?

But hey you all want to keep tilting at the green shoot windmills, knoch yourselves out. I'm sure the local Chevy dealer will readily take yur cash for on of the Volts.

Oh yeah, and golly Devie isn't it Reagan that the media is currently lionizing? Besides bro Obama's "tax cuts" improve my bottom line. How about yours?

spanky - But until you prove it, I think it'd be a real good idea to get to producing more oil and build a bunch of nuke plants NOW.

Nukes? Really? As someone who grew up in S. Central PA (remember TMI, Chernobyl maybe?), let me just say that human arrogance never ceases to amaze me. "The technology's better now" "That could NEVER happen again"

Nukes are NO PART of the answer. Nukes are stupid. No need to mention the oxymoron of "Controlled fusion", because the nuclear (Republican translation - "Nukular") reactor wasn't even the problem at TMI. It was the coolant system. F*&% controlling a perpetual nuclear explosion inside a stone box -- we can't even keep the radiator working!

Yet it appears to me that not only is nothing being done to correct, the things that have been done - moratoruim, failure to build Nuke plants, are making matters worse.

Spanky Dude, u r mistaken, the moratorium was not to curb crude oil cost but to understand what caused the massive oil spill in the Gulf Coast - the leak has been plugged and the moratorium lifted... yet prices keep going up. Don't absolutely know why u r still bringing this up. Go build Nuke plants in ur backyard... even though I support it, good luck getting it passed in a congress in a specific place.

But hey, if you want to raise the other issues, by all means. But do tell me Tunde, what was Carter's plan, and how do you think it would have worked out if implemented? Also for a bonus round compare and contrrast the "rocket deficits" of Reagan to the last year and a half.

By the way, since you bring up carter to denigrate the Obama... and you've now asked for Carter's specific plan I talked about....here it is, buddy:

These are the goals we set for 1985:

--Reduce the annual growth rate in our energy demand to less than two percent.
--Reduce gasoline consumption by ten percent below its current level.
--Cut in half the portion of United States oil which is imported, from a potential level of 16 million barrels to six million barrels a day.
--Establish a strategic petroleum reserve of one billion barrels, more than six months' supply.
--Increase our coal production by about two thirds to more than 1 billion tons a year.
--Insulate 90 percent of American homes and all new buildings.
--Use solar energy in more than two and one-half million houses.

According to Spanky... these are not American Ideals, but that of the Terrorist Carter trying to destroy America along with his protege - the Obama Socialist. In any event,

And you know that he record deficits were indeed caused by Bush's policies right? I can list them out for you.

• - Cut taxes "significantly" for the 2% wealthiest Americans...
• - Two unfunded wars....
• - A crashed economy (Tax revenues come from from business incomes - which were essentially slashed in half), so tax income to the government was also slashed in half... and to add that to the money used to shore up Banks and Auto industry to prevent a complete collapse. That's what Obama truly inherited from your boy Bush. THESE ARE NOT TALKING POINTS... these are researched truths that I can 100% validate. Go research it urself too.

According to Spanky... these are not American Ideals, but that of the Terrorist Carter trying to destroy America along with his protege - the Obama Socialist. In any event, good luck buddy.

And Spanky, being an Engineer in my past life, I can validate that if we had researched/invested in alternative energy when Carter proposed it, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in today....

- did you know that the internal combustion engine only had about 20% efficiency? while that of electric engine is > 70% due to regenerative braking et al?

- did you know that the energy captured by solar panels is only about 40% converted to electricity?, same as levels seen in the 1960s... and if more research had been done in this area, we'd be seeing upwards of 90% with current technologies - making it a more viable option for an alternative today.

Just keeping digging the ground for more oil and when we run out, we'll start thinking about alternative energy.

You're WAY too easy, Spanky. Of course, I left that open for you.

How else would you get your jollies?

Spanky, Nice GOP tactics you got there attack at the strength of the argument with no facts just gibberish. Sorry this isn't Fox or talk radio with a captive audience of magpies who hang on your every word like it's the gospel.

Spanky, more info on Carter for your sweet digestion.... don't choke on it though, but these were proposed by Carter.

The first principle is that we can have an effective and comprehensive energy policy only if the government takes responsibility for it and if the people understand the seriousness of the challenge and are willing to make sacrifices.

The second principle is that healthy economic growth must continue. Only by saving energy can we maintain our standard of living and keep our people at work. An effective conservation program will create hundreds of thousands of new jobs.

The third principle is that we must protect the environment. Our energy problems have the same cause as our environmental problems -- wasteful use of resources. Conservation helps us solve both at once.

The fourth principle is that we must reduce our vulnerability to potentially devastating embargoes. We can protect ourselves from uncertain supplies by reducing our demand for oil, making the most of our abundant resources such as coal, and developing a strategic petroleum reserve.

The fifth principle is that we must be fair. Our solutions must ask equal sacrifices from every region, every class of people, every interest group. Industry will have to do its part to conserve, just as the consumers will. The energy producers deserve fair treatment, but we will not let the oil companies profiteer.

The sixth principle, and the cornerstone of our policy, is to reduce the demand through conservation. Our emphasis on conservation is a clear difference between this plan and others which merely encouraged crash production efforts. Conservation is the quickest, cheapest, most practical source of energy. Conservation is the only way we can buy a barrel of oil for a few dollars. It costs about $13 to waste it.

The seventh principle is that prices should generally reflect the true replacement costs of energy. We are only cheating ourselves if we make energy artificially cheap and use more than we can really afford.

The eighth principle is that government policies must be predictable and certain. Both consumers and producers need policies they can count on so they can plan ahead. This is one reason I am working with the Congress to create a new Department of Energy, to replace more than 50 different agencies that now have some control over energy.

The ninth principle is that we must conserve the fuels that are scarcest and make the most of those that are more plentiful. We can't continue to use oil and gas for 75 percent of our consumption when they make up seven percent of our domestic reserves. We need to shift to plentiful coal while taking care to protect the environment, and to apply stricter safety standards to nuclear energy.

The tenth principle is that we must start now to develop the new, unconventional sources of energy we will rely on in the next century.

Amy and others,

American Petroleum Institute, federal lands alone hold an estimated 116.4 billion barrels of recoverable oil, enough to run 65 million cars for 60 years. US Department of Transportation Statistics - roughly 63 million vehicles in US 2005. Whatever even if it is doubled now.

Manhatten Institute says America is sitting on the natural gas equivalent of more than 350 billion barrels of oil - approximately double the proven reserves of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela combined.

Enough to run all US households that use natural gas for 160 years.

Add new nuclear, clean coal.....

Obama's policy is asinine.

...well this thread just turned into a massive pile of faggotry and fail.

What exactly is clean coal? Isn't that an oxymoron?

bob - 116.4 billion barrels of recoverable oil, enough to run 65 million cars for 60 years

I don't know what country you live in, but there are 230 million cars in this country (& goes up by over 5 million/year - your 2005 # wasn't even close for 2005). Even if there were only 60 million, AND your kids & mine only lived to be 60 (current projections say life expectancy will be around 100 at that point!), WHAT THEN?!? I suppose you republi-can'ts will all of a sudden say "ok, NOW let's plan for a non-Mad-Max-type future - we're close enough now!"

...and yes, Devie, thank you! Clean coal doesn't exist. Not now, not in the works, nothin'...

exodite: fail is a verb...

Clean Coal - CCS? Carbon Capture and Sequestration

Obama has even talked about it, seems he allocated $3.4 billion in 2009 to it in the ARRA. Hillary has talked it up, even Steven Chu, Obama's Energy Secretary has said "It is absolutely worthwhile......

Wow.... you guys really are dumb.

Chris the Lib

"The US produces 4.95M barrels of oil a day, which is about 5.8% of the World's 85.2M/day. So even if we were able to double production, it would drop prices by 6% max."

AND- decrease or deplete OUR supply, so in the future, we will REALLY be begging at somone else's feet.

Oh, and who all here thinks the middle east will be one big, benevolent , happy family by then?

Who besides Spanky, I mean.....

"A top aide to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat has dropped a new clue about the original 'October Surprise' mystery of 1980: the name of the Republican operative who sought the Palestine Liberation Organization’s help to block President Jimmy Carter’s negotiations to free 52 Americans then being held hostage in Iran.

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/coupreaganbush.htm

It's the speculators licking their chops to exploit the situation for a bubble."

Spanky- would you mind commenting on the above, so we don't have to start thinking you are not serious about some of your posts?

Thanks- your pal Drive-Thru-Observer (thanks, JoAnnaSmith- I like it...)

THe answer is simple Tundie - you need to use less oil. Or have you not been personally adhereing to Carter's brilliant plan? Have you been conserving since 1976?

Do you drive a Prius? So how about it Tundie you got solar? Would anyone use solar on their home with out a big fat subsidy? Engineer us something viable. Right now it does not exist. Unless you have a car that runs on solar. Do you, cause that would be the bomb!

DBO - not serious? Me? Don't know about that stuff. I do know that Ronnie got them out. And really are we to believe the word of anyone associated with Arafat?

And Devie - you are not hanging on my every word? Are you trying to make me cry? But seriously how about those tax cuts? Helped out a lot, right? Heck we even get to file a few days late cause the wizards at the IRS don't have the act together.

Spanky-

DBO - not serious? Me? Don't know about that stuff. I do know that Ronnie got them out. And really are we to believe the word of anyone associated with Arafat?

Spanky-

You didn't notice how Raygun got them out; did you? You'd rather give praise to a decrepit old man so craven for power he would allow 52 American lives to face death or torture .

The leaders of the U.S. exposed themselves to the possibility of blackmail by Iran or Israel. Third, the events suggest that the arms-for-hostage deal that in the twilight of the Reagan Presidency became known as the Iran-contra affair, instead of being an aberration, was in fact the re-emergence of a policy that began even before the Reagan-Bush Administration took office."

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/coupreaganbush.htm

What is so great about selling arms to Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala countries that were found guilty of human rights violations connected with insurgencies arising from longstanding social and political inequities so he could be president?

We could, but then what would will run our SUV's on?

Tidal.

I was thinking tremendous amounts of gerbils on exercise wheels, honestly. Food pellets and bits of carrot are surely cheaper than gasoline these days.

Hey, Spanky I voted your comment up because that was kind of cute :)

It might interest you to know what's going on in Maine around tidal energy. It's so exciting! There is technology designed, developed and beginning to be manufactured right here in Maine!

The turbines were designed in-house with assistance from the University of Maine and Bath, Maine-based U.S. Windblade, which fabricated the turbines. The proprietary design uses almost entirely composite materials and has no gears, which makes the unit resistant to corrosion; also, the unit requires no lubricants.

“It’s newer technology, but we’re borrowing and adapting a lot of technologies,” says Chris Sauer, Ocean Renewable Power Co. CEO. The company, which has been in existence for about six years, received assistance from the U.S. Navy to help determine which technologies and materials might be best for the harsh marine environment. The company has received grants from the government as it has been developing the project—the most recent a $750,000 grant in July from the Dept. of Energy because the project will help mature ocean energy to a commercially viable state.

By Pam Radtke Russell
This article originally appeared on Engineering News-Record

Thant's great. Please get back to us when that technology is actually used in a non governmentally subsidized manner.

Question is - could Renewable Power Co. exist absent governmental subsidies? Last I heard it takes more energy to make a wind mill than said wind mill will produce during its useful life. Then of course you have the issue they just had over in England - the wind mills froze. Frozen willmills, like deadmen, tell no tales.

I could start a business knitting windmill sweaters and bring manufacturing back to Maine.

Would buying and downing a lot of beer and pissing on every frozen windmill in the UK count as an economic boon? I mean, surely, Guiness fuels the fires of industry.

Spanky, I sure am glad the FDR Administration had the foresight to to bring electricity to rural America with REA and TVA aren't you? Those pesky government agencies planning for the future. Like who wants electricity when you have candles and kerosene?

That's what you got devie? FDR?

I like electricity. Energy equals freedom. You limit energy resources you limit the ability to move about. Right now there is no legitimate dispute that the cheapest and best energy sources are coal and oil. Or are you aware of a lot of airplanes using solar, wind, or some "green" source.

You do like airplanes, don't you devie?

LouisJ

I guess since the president would not conform to the way the media would handle it is a negative against him especially in the Rush Limbaugh Circle Circus.

Of course it is LouisJ

Those clowns on the right have no idea how other countries hate dictators propped up by the USA.

Then you've got that John Bolt-on wanting to bomb Iran because of poor little Israel.

Mr. Prime Minister, if you go to Washington as the leader of fractious government whose primary agenda is to sustain your coalition, you will not only continue to alienate President Obama, but miss your moment in history. If, however, you go as the leader of the Jewish State, whose commitment is to lead our people, you will neither argue about settlement freezes or the legitimacy of "natural growth." You will refrain from offering self-validating factual arguments which show that the "fault" for the current stagnation lies elsewhere. Instead, you will speak about a yearning to live at peace with our neighbors. You will speak about doing whatever we can without endangering our security in order to enable the growth of the Palestinian entity at our side. You will initiate and take the lead in presenting confidence building measures, even though you would be right to argue that it is time for the Palestinians to do the same. You will present yourself and Israel as responsible and sober yet at the same time visionary and courageous.

Mr. Prime Minister, stop trying to present arguments which prove that we are right and instead present ideas which prove that we are smart. It is in your power to return hope and vision to Israeli politics. I am not suggesting that you ignore our security needs, nor your political philosophy. I am suggesting that this is the time to put forth creative ideas and visionary policies which are consistent with your views. It is the time to reclaim our place as leaders in the solution, instead of letting others define us unjustifiably as the foundation of the problem.

http://www.hartmaninstitute.com/Opinion_C_View_Eng.asp?Article_Id=520

Their representatives also meet with ministers whose remarks and actions negate the rights of the Palestinian people with no less determination than those of Hamas ministers, who refuse to declare their recognition of Israel's right to exist. The Western countries chose to punish the occupied with very concrete means - but not the occupier, which it sees as part of their Enlightened Civilization. They thus signal to Israel that it may adhere to the same policies whose impact the reports are warning against.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/words-instead-of-actions-1.220906

Egyptologist, who had been in contact with Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, said it seemed the petrol bombs were being thrown by protesters demonstrating in favor of President Hosni Mubarak.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/us-egypt-clashes-idUSTRE71164320110202

Mubarak backers charge camels towards Tahrir: witness

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/02/us-egypt-protest-camels-idUSTRE7113QQ20110202

I think the Fox noise machine is doing a job of wanting President Obama to prop up a dictactor because, Israel is our ally.

If this is so why isn't Israel in the NPT? Israel is capable of taking care of herself and should stop their apartheid. Palenstiains have no one to protect the land which is theirs.

I Must Be Dreaming

The Muslim brotherhood just got 40 million young radicalized new members ....Good going !... Is this where i wish Israel good luck ?

How about wishing those people living on the land exploited by Israel some luck?

Due to the impact of Israel's occupation those people can't even go to work without fear of repression. Neither could they receive goods because of Israel's flotilla attack on Gaza Aid Fleet. Isn't that piracy?

There is no pride in occupation and stalking of human beings and human rights

Beverly, I normally agree with your posts, however this one is over the top. Kindly allow me to give you a history lesson:

People need to remember that "Palestine" was a creation of the British when they took over the region from the Ottomans after the First World War. The "Palestinians" in the West bank are Jordanians (another invention of the British), and those in Gaza are Egyptians. I don't see anyone clamoring for Jordan or Egypt to take back their citizens. The "Palestinian" cause predates the 1967 war, even prior to the annexation of Gaza and the West Bank by Israel. The Arabs want Israel gone; the palestinian's plight is simply a convenient excuse. There has been a Jewish presence in Israel for 3500 years- the Muslims haven't been around for half that long. The Romans took Israel from the Jews; the Byzantines (Western Romans) inherited it; the Caliphate Arabs took it from them when they waged Jihad across the Middle East and Northern Africa in the 8th century); the Seljuk Turks, and then the Ottomans took it from them; and finally, the British took it after WWI, splitting the area into 2 parts- Palestine, and Transjordan, with Palestine further divided by the UN partition into the Jewish state of Israel, and the West Bank (which became part of Jordan, along with Transjordan. The Arabs response to the partition, 20 years before the West Bank and Gaza were issues, was an attempt at annihilation of the Jewish state- and so far, 61 years later, only Egypt and Jordan, the 2 countries who lost the territory disputed by the Palestinians (only Syria gripes about the Golan), are the only ones who have normal diplomatic relations with Israel and recognize Israel's right to exist. Odd, no?

The land of Israel was and will always be that of the Jews; we don't see Israeli Jews who were thrown out of Iraq, Iran, Syria asking for their land, (right of return) homes, businesses, etc back (about 800,000 of them)- perhaps those countries should give the Jews former properties to the "palestinians", and call it square?

It appears that you believe that the oppressed have become the oppressors.' Can you blame them given the history of the region, the Churches and Muslims treatment of them over the last five hundred years and their legitimate security concerns after seeing their loved ones blown up by suicide bombers. Context is everything hare since Israel is a small country and the loss of 30 people there is the equivalent to a 9-11 here. Beverly if you are a Christian, the fact is you would not have access to Christian shrines if they were under control of the palestinians. You have only to look at desecration of Christian holy places throughout the Muslim world for the answer to that question.

All that being said, I do believe that all settlement activity should cease and that any talks should be based on the Saudi Proposal.

So you see Bev..The problem is much more complex given the history of the region.

Torpedo you,

Good rebutal and information of the complex history of the state of Israel. I have noticed that most progressives seem to take a hard look against Israel due to the Palestinian Israeli problem. As your post detailed it is a Arab Israeli problem with some states refusing that Israel has the right to exist. After all their are Arab Israeli citizens.

To date, I find it interesting that opponents or detractors of Israel don't note that they are one of the only countries who after protecting themselves and winning land in times of war have given back land in the hopes for peace. Israel protected themselves in 48 after the surrounding Arab armies attacked simultaneously. They won in 1967 and in the 73 Yom Kippur war. In attempts at peace they have yielded the Golan Heights to Syria, the Sinia to Egypt and left Gaza to the Palestinians. Can you imagine the US giving land back to countries like Mexico that was won after winning the Mexican American war of 1846-48?

That is not to say that Israel is not at fault. For example, the aparteid like conditions that they employ in the occupied territories should be condemend. The continued building of Jewish settlements in the West Bank should cease. The US would not sit still if we were attacked by groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas so why is Israel blamed for defending themselves?

As with most issues and problems there are two sides to each story. Unfortunately the Palestinians and their trials are being used as pawns by the Arab states who refused to give them sancturary or citizenry status in their own countries.

TorpedoYou

Beverly, I normally agree with your posts, however this one is over the top. Kindly allow me to give you a history lesson:

I don't take offense with the history you've read. Perhaps you could have toned own your sarcasm about lecturing me on history. Donno In fact, I see a few details of you studies are missing.

But when you speak of the Arab Caliphates are you aware those Jews were forced to convert?

I've often wondered how people who were not connected to Israel sans DNA could lay claim based upon a Biblical prophesy. I've read there are Jews in Israel who feel the same as I do. I don't remember the book. When my husband comes in tonight I'll ask him if he remembers. I searched the internet for you but at the moment I can't find the author since I don't remember the the title of the book or the author.

Anyhow, the author himself is Jewish. He traces the history and the choice the Jewish people needed to make to avoid invasion /extinction? they chose Judaism since it was older than Christianity.

Here are a few snippets to substantiate there is no DNA or biblical claim that rings true.

an indigenous Caucasian people who converted en masse to Judaism in the eighth century, in a vain attempt to fend off Christian Russians and Islamic Arabs.

http://www.khazaria.com/mountainjews.html

Although they stopped the Arab expansion into Eastern Europe for some time after these wars, the Khazars were forced to withdraw behind the Caucasus. In the ensuing decades they extended their territories from the Caspian Sea in the east (many cultures still call the Caspian Sea "Khazar Sea"; e.g. "Xəzər dənizi" in Azeri, "Hazar Denizi" in Turkish, "Bahr ul-Khazar" in Arabic, "Darya-ye Khazar" in Persian) to the steppe region north of Black Sea in the west, as far west at least as the Dnieper River.

In 758, the Abbasid Caliph Abdullah al-Mansur ordered Yazid ibn Usayd al-Sulami, one of his nobles and military governor of Armenia, to take a royal Khazar bride and make peace.

Jews fled from Byzantium to Khazaria as a consequence of persecution under Heraclius,Justinian II, Leo III, and Romanos I.^[17] These were joined by other Jews fleeing from SassanidPersia (particularly during the Mazdak revolts),^[18] and, later, the Islamic world.

At some point in the last decades of the 8th century or the early 9th century, the Khazar royalty and nobility converted to Judaism, and part of the general population followed.^[19] The extent of the conversion is debated.

the Khazar empire was between growing populations, Muslims to the east and Christians to the west. Both religions recognized Judaism as a forebear and worthy of some respect. The exact date of the conversion is hotly contested. It may have occurred as early as 740 or as late as the mid-9th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar

You may find this an interesting read. Perhaps this may be cultural folklore and fallacy. Dunno

The Jewish claim God promised Israel to the Jews and their descendants is not true the land belongs to the people of Palestine. Palestinians have occupied the land through birth since the Canaanites even recorded history.

It is very difficult from my perspective for Jewish people today to claim an origin to that of the those who made up the early Jewish religion based on those readings.

The European Jewish people weren’t welcomed in Europe after WWII despite fleeing persecution in Eastern Europe; which is sad. But, the truth is the promised land came about by UN.

As I actually see it, East European people who took on Judaism as a religion. Some may be genetically linked; some not.

The point is Jews and Arabs lived side by side for more than 2,000 years ago without conflict.

The Zionist came in and colonized them for greed in my opinion. Since it appears the Eeastern jew is not authentic why not go back home

Oh, and I'm not a Christian and I detest colonization.

houston - don't underestimate the power of social networking via the internet. If it is true that 60 % of Egyptians are in poverty earning less than $10/day their cell phone plans and Internet rates must be extraordinarily cheap.

Houston, kind of like the SEIU and other unions being bussed into pro Obama rallies, and other political rallies. If I remember right those demonstrators were paid with union money.

sfcret

Houston, kind of like the SEIU and other unions being bussed into pro Obama rallies, and other political rallies. If I remember right those demonstrators were paid with union money.

Ohhh, now the pot is calling the skillet black? You can't make any equivalency there. Nor can you justify the Tea Baggers actually intimidation for the past 2 years and even until today committing or threatening violence.

A tea bagger assaulted a woman for showing a picture of Rosa Parks for showing it to a journalist at a town hall.

She and a few other women had brought posters to the town hall, but they rolled them up after being booed and berated by the crowd. When the woman unrolled one to show to a journalist, an angry man in the crowd rushed over and tore it up. A poster of what, you ask? Rosa Parks. When the woman moved to take her poster back, the police stepped in and escorted both parties from the building. But only the woman made national news.

Watch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6lP_eRJLSc

Don't forget the most recent death threatening racist fax sent to Asian american Mayoral candidate and state Sen. Leland Yee.

The anonymous faxes, laced with racial epithets and misspellings, were addressed to "JoBama Rectum Sniffing Moron LEELAND LEE" and call Yee a "fish head," according to a copy provided by Yee's office.

It include a drawing of a U.S. flag-adorned pickup truck towing a noose that is looped around what appears to be a caricature head of President Barack Obama. The document says: "Without exceptions, Marxists are enemies of the United States Constitution! Death to all Marxists! Foreign and Domestic!"

It also says: "Achtung! Fish Head Leeland Lee. Rush Limbaugh will kick your (insert racist and profane words here) and expose you for the fool you are."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=81823#ixzz1CpQeN7bV

You sure can't deny the anonymous caller was not listening to the right wing whacko-doodles.

ANd that is just one out of many.

sfcret

Houston, kind of like the SEIU and other unions being bussed into pro Obama rallies, and other political rallies. If I remember right those demonstrators were paid with union money.

Geez, is there any topic that won't draw delusional anti-Obama rants?

Beverly, isn't the first amendment great!! as for wacko doodles, got any cutsy names for those who are led astray by "thinkprogressive" radicals?

No disrespect for Senator Lee, but we are talking california here. Seems that alot of radicals have been known to live there, all the way from the extreme left to the extreme right. Hmmmm, I wonder if their really is any difference between the extreme right and the extreme left.

I tend to agree with Houston.

Note: Conjecture and opinion follows.

The Pro Mubarak protesters are probably paid and bused in supporters of the dictator. Isn't it intersting that thousands of prisoners somehow escaped the Egyptian prisons in the fist days of the protests. I would guess that those are the thugs killing and looting. The Egyptian army will stand back until there is violent bloodshed so the dictator can swoop in to appear to radiate confidence and stability. This is Mubarak's last chance to stay in power. He will offer stability to the world. However, the will of the people, who the majority are not the radical Muslim brotherhood must be heard.

Also I see a lot of anger from the right in our country towards our President. To the detractors of President Obama, I wonder what you would have him do? This is a very delicate situation, I think Obama should privately call for Mubarak to resign, don't leak the conversation but allow Mubarak to resign and leave the country. Make it appear as if the US was not involved. The less involved we are the better. As it is well documented that the reason for the arab streets anger against the US is because of our some time hypocritcal foreign policy decisions that fly in the face of our democratic ideals.

Well, we should be hearing from no jo about how the President failed at reading minds...in 3...2...1...

Sorry the prognosticator of prognosticator's, the seer of seers. For today is Punxsutawney Phil! njnb the President will have to take a back seat to the seer of the hour who is telling us that we will have an early spring! I certainly hope so as I do like the spring and summer. Oh and before I forget I'm with Phil on his Super Bowl Pick. Go Steelers! Sorry, Packers Fans just can't do it.

Phil Says Expect an Early Spring!

Phil's official forecast as read February 2nd, 2011, at sunrise at Gobbler's Knob in Punxsutawney, PA:

Here Ye, Hear Ye, Hear Ye

Groundhog Day, February 2, 2011
Punxsutawney Phil was raised from his burrow
By the call of President Bill Deeley.
He greeted his handlers, Ben Hughes and John Griffiths.

After casting an inquisitive eye towards thousands of his faithful followers,
He proclaimed that the Steelers are going to the Super Bowl!

Back to the business at hand...
He surveyed his surroundings carefully and found that there was no shadow around,
So, an early spring it will be.

Note: In order to help handle the enormous amount of traffic on the web site, we have temporarily trimmed the site to a bare bones, low-bandwidth version. Please visit us again for the full version of our site, with news and other fun features about Punxsutawney and its most famous resident! Oh, and GO STEELERS!

We had the same result here, but probably because Jimmy had no business sticking his head out anywhere. If he came out later, however, we're doomed, as the sun is now glaring brightly on the new-fallen snow, throwing luster of mid-day on objects below. Because it's mid-day.

The Steelers are going to the Super Bowl? Oh, my. Ask him about the Packers.

Devie, if the 15 or so Robins I saw a couple days ago in my yard are any indication, i'd say the GroundHog is Correct.

As for the Superbowl, is there any doubt aabout the "Stairway to Seven"?

Go SteeeeeeeeeeeelerZ !

You Betcha!

Sorry Anna,

I just can't root for the Packers due to a divisional rivalry. Nope can't bring myself to do it. Sorry.

We would have war #4 (after Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran).

You forgot North Korea - Al! lol

Consider this, McCain/Palin don't occupy the White House, so its a non-sequitir.

All right Torpedo. Someone actually got it right.

Thanks for thinking of me.

perhaps ask hillary clinton ,cant say i have any confidence in the current administration that relies on the ole ,,I did not know answer,,,lord help this country

You are probably right Feisty. McCain and Palin would probably try to get us in more wars than the Steelers have Super Bowl rings.

After all Al - aren't we all Georgians now? lol

Crusty old war monger and his lipstick wearing pitbull sidekick!

Maybe we can give the Russians the State of Georgia and call it even. After all, don't the good people of Georgia want to seceed anyways?

Will someone please send me a weather report from Hell? I actually have to give John McCain an "atta boy." From the BBC:

US Senator John McCain has just released this statement: "The rapidly deteriorating situation in Egypt leads me to the conclusion that President Mubarak needs to step down and relinquish power. It is clear that the only institution in Egypt that can restore order is the army, but I fear that for it to do so on behalf of a government led by or involving President Mubarak would only escalate the violence and compromise the army's legitimacy. I urge President Mubarak to transfer power to a caretaker administration that includes members of Egypt's military, government, civil society, and pro-democracy opposition, which can lead the country to free, fair, and internationally credible elections this year as part of a real transition to democracy

Senator McCain continues: "I remain concerned about the role of the Muslim Brotherhood and other organizations in Egypt that espouse an extremist ideology. But Egypt must have a democratic future. It is the will of the Egyptian people. It is in the interest of the United States. And the greatest contribution that President Mubarak can make to the cause of democracy in his country is to remove himself from power."

I have to admit that McCain's statement is what Obama should say to Mubarak in private. Obama's private talk with Mubarak should let him know that the US does not and will not support him. Despite McCain's frankness and truth, I wouldn't suggest Obama to make this type of a statement publically. I agree that the US President must continue to walk a fine line here to shore up our relations with the other moderate Arab leaders who I bet are pretty skittish right now. If those moderate arab dictators, I mean state leaders, knew what is good for them they would be calling for Mubarak to step down.

Let the protesters perceive that their actions and their actions alone without western influence were what caused the dictator to fall.

I assure you that I call my old buddy "Bag Boy" by that name in the spirit of fun. But you can probably discount my arguments anyway. I know he does. ;-)

I'm pretty sure we all discount (whilst we discredit!) each others' arguments. It's the American way~

What? Oh no - you think I can get my money back?

I bet that made you feel a lot better. And probably a lot smarter, right?

Spanky. It does not take much to feel smarter then a teabagger.

Except a smug sense of self-aggrandizing righteousness.

Dragon. Nope, sorry to disappoint.

Cool story bro

It cool patrick we know your junk is HUGE and you probably drive a really cool sports car.

So tell us Patrick are you just smarter than everyone, or just everyone here?

Spanky.My junk is average, my car is a Rendezvous. And lots of people here are smarter then I. You are just not one of them

Patrick, did you see that vid capture of a Faux broadcast where they showed Egypt where Iraq is supposed to be?

Egypt where Iraq is supposed to be?

Details...details...

Then they wonder why they're referred to as low information voters!

Patrick had it right 99.9% of them had NO idea Egypt is located and you can thank Fox News for that! lol

They saw that point on the map where the Tigris meets the Euphrates, and thought it was cleavage. Simple error, likely.

Al. Sorry missed that. One more reason not to watch Faux News.

Ah Patrick, the best part is I bet you don't even feel like a douchebag for your original comment. But hey you got Fiesty to agree with you and you know what they say about the company you keep.

But hey I'm glad to see your driving and American car. Go Patrick!

Spanky. I never feel like a douchebag, tell us what it feels like?

Well, thanks a LOT, Patrick- now he's gonna go pester someone ELSE!

Anabanananana,

Considering we get about 1% of our oil from those hostile middle eastern countries, I don't see how your argument is even remotely valid.

Guess old AnaBanana doesn't have to fill up the old tank. Maybe she's got one of those fancy electric cars. No money of heres goes for energy costs I guess.

Hey AnaBanana - how come "your" president won't pull the troops out? And don't worry about me, I sleep pretty good.

anabanana - what an astute observation...

Egypt will have the government it wants. Not the government America wants.

And yet obama and company seems to be interested in interferring in Egypts domestic affairs, from last fridays speech to last nights 4-5 minute speech and to todays comments from congressman Leahy after conferring (he said) with obama and company.

Go figure, as I agree this is Egypts concern not ours. Obama should just let the crises play itself out by the Egyptians.

Mongolians? Get a map out and read some ancient history. Focus on Asia if you like the word "Mongolians".

KingK....Just another right wing pseudo patriot foreign policy expert. Please report to your nearest USMC recruiting station and sign up for combat duty in Afghanistan because that appears to be limit of your foreign policy experience. No insult intended to our men and women in service.

KingK is just spouting right wing talking points. He obviously has zero understanding of foreign policy.

Not quite boys. But you don't need to take my word for it. The NYT report posted on this site yesterday confirms that Obama sees a role for the Muslim Brotherhood to play in the new government. Reports elsewhere are indicating that there has been communication between the Admin. and the MB either deirectly or via back channels;

Mrs. Clinton, officials said, suggested that the administration send Mr. Wisner, a former ambassador to Egypt who knows Mr. Mubarak well, to deliver a message directly from Mr. Obama to the Egyptian leader. Officials said Mr. Wisner urged Mr. Mubarak to declare publicly that he would not run for re-election. But Mr. Wisner has extended his stay in Cairo, officials said, and may have a follow-up meeting with Mr. Mubarak if events seem to demand a quicker exit.

Interactive: Timelines, profile & U.S. ties (on this page)

At the Saturday meeting, the officials also agreed that Mrs. Clinton would start calling for "an orderly transition" when she taped a round of interviews for the Sunday talk programs. Administration officials were already smarting from not coming out more fully in support of the protesters earlier. In particular, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. had been criticized for an interview with "NewsHour" on PBS on Thursday, in which he answered "no" when the host, Jim Lehrer, asked if the time had come for Mr. Mubarak to go.

"They took a little while to catch up, but by Sunday morning they understood that it was over, and since then, they've understood how to make it happen," said Martin S. Indyk, the director of foreign policy at the Brookings Institution.

Still, administration officials were grappling with their public message versus their private message. Senior officials say that as Mr. Wisner traveled to Egypt, Obama officials in Washington were working on his message to Mr. Mubarak: to announce that he would not run for re-election (he did that), and to promise that his son would not run for election (he did not do that).

"No one wanted it to seem as if we were pushing him out," one administration official said. "That would not serve American interests. It was important for President Mubarak to make the decision."

Two hours after Mr. Wisner's plane left Andrews Air Force Base, White House officials sent an e-mail to more than a dozen foreign policy experts in Washington, asking them to come in for a meeting on Monday morning. "Apologies for the short notice in light of a very fluid situation," the e-mail said.

The Roosevelt Room meeting, led by Benjamin Rhodes, the deputy national security adviser for strategic communications, and two other National Security Council officials, Daniel Shapiro and Samantha Power, examined unrest in the region, and the potential for the protests to spread, according to several attendees.

Significantly, during the meeting, White House staff members "made clear that they did not rule out engagement with the Muslim Brotherhood as part of an orderly process," according to one attendee, who like others interviewed for this article spoke on condition of anonymity because he did not want to talk publicly about the meeting. The Muslim group had been suppressed by Mr. Mubarak, and Bush administration officials believed it was involved in terrorist activities. It renounced violence years ago.

Several times, two other attendees said, White House staff members said that Mr. Obama believed that Egyptian politics needed to encompass "nonsecular" parties: diplomatic-speak for the Muslim Brotherhood

BTW, it would be irresponsible if the Obama administration was not in contact with them, given their numbers and the role they have played in Egypt as the largest opponent of the government. All I'm asking for is for the administration to disclose the details of the contacts. If there were none then that too is a sign of Obama's incompetence.

Yup...Just like the tea party plays a role in the good ol' USA. State department estimates that the Muslim Brotherhood is 20% of the population with about 3-5 different factions within the "movement." In short, the Muslim Brotherhood is not the MONOLITH you make it out to be. Those be the facts Jack! Sorry to confuse you.

I didn't say it was monolithic, did I. What is your problem. Apparently you think it's acceptable to ignore the potential pitfalls of this crisis and just go along with whatever Obama and the gang say or do, or more importantly, fail to say or do. The following is from Slate:

A poster of Hosni Mubarak with his face crossed out is held up as Egyptians gather in Cairo's Tahrir Square heeding a call by the opposition for a "march of a million" to mark a week of protests calling for the ouster of Hosni Mubarak's long-term regime, on Feb, 1, 2011Now that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's regime may soon come to an end, Americans are asking what might take its place. A prime candidate is the Muslim Brotherhood, or so it seems. The Brotherhood is the largest organized opposition group in Egypt, with hundreds of thousands of members and supporters. In official Washington, the name of the Muslim Brotherhood conjures up fears of another Iran. Already, Western policymakers and analysts have sounded warnings about anti-democratic forces taking over the revolution. Theocracy, we are told, may not be far behind.

Once again, the United States finds itself torn between interests and ideals—and between democracy and its outcomes. This is the "Islamist dilemma" that has long paralyzed American policy in the region. Is a democratic revolution worth it if it brings the Muslim Brotherhood into government?

BTW, I'm not a member of the TEA party.

From the CIA Fact Book:

Muslim Brotherhood (technically illegal)
note: despite a constitutional ban against religious-based parties and political activity, the technically illegal Muslim Brotherhood constitutes Egypt's most potentially significant political opposition; President MUBARAK has alternated between tolerating limited political activity by the Brotherhood and blocking its influence (its members compete as independents in elections but do not currently hold any seats in the legislature); civic society groups are sanctioned, but constrained in practical terms; only trade unions and professional associations affiliated with the government are officially sanctioned; Internet social networking groups and bloggers

This situation is not analogous to Iran circa 1979. There will be NO Islamic Republic of Egypt! The Army will not stand for it.

Just who in the hell do you think will take over if Mubarak is out? The Muslim Brotherhood that's who. And they are big time Radical Islamic. This is the democracy all of the idiots on this board are calling for. This is no democracy this is a coup and Obama is probably behind it.

Wake up all of you fools in a dream. Obama is a complete disaster, everything he touches turns to crap. Obama has destroyed our economy, he is trying to destroy our Energy Industry, he is making us completely dependant on a area of the World that will soon be controlled by radical Islamists. Obama hates America, he goes around apologizing for being the greatest Nation on earth. Obama has already installed two Muslims in two African Nations that replaced democratically elected leaders. Obama has our borders completely open and soon Mexican Trucks will be rolling in full of terrorists, weapons and drugs. Of course Obama will make it illegal for us to search. Obama and Holder are releasing black criminals back on the streets as fast as they can be arrested. I'm amazed at what I hear people saying when it's so obvious at what this usurper is doing. He's keeping us in Afghanistan but won't allow us to shoot our weapons unless we're shot first. Obama has divided this country by every difference he can. Blacks v Whites, Mexicans v Whites, Asians v Mexicans, poor v rich, middle class v rich, lazy v workers, Steelers v Packers, South v North, Christians v Athesists, Jews v Everybody. Surely you've heard divide and conquer, well that's his plan and there are so many people who are so stupid they are falling for it. It sickening how many people Obama has turned against America.

Juven - apparently diplomatic speaking skills are not your strong suit.

I do agree with the premise that there has been enough time for radical (non-democratic seeking) groups to come up with a disruptive game plan and I am neutral on the muslim brotherhood intents.

Did you miss me Drive By?

Or is it you just can't help it?

After reading ol' Spank's stuff for so long, I'm actually looking forward to some intelligent recourse from you.

Funny DBO! I was thinking the same thing!

Spanky - is soooo yesterday! lol

Maybe we should sneak ol' Juven up to the secret treehouse.....

...Do something subversive with him. like maybe teach him to smoke cigarettes or something.