Anna Molly

And that's 31 times too many.

One was more than needed.

AMEN to that, Beverly.

AM: -- he wouldn't have fired 31 shots into that crowd if he hadn't had a gun

So what do you propose pork chop? You know, rather than the usual Leftist rants.

Anna Molly, I can understand your point, but. . .

Pot is illegal, and it has been widely reported that he was, in fact, a frequent user. Heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine- these, and many other illicit drugs- are all illegal, yet we know that there are users, in fact, addicts.

I do not and never will own a gun, but I can understand that if guns are illegal, only the criminal element will own them. UZIs are illegal, and, to my knowledge, they are only owned by drug dealers and other criminals.

Would that it would be so easy as to simply ban guns in order to stop the violence!

@ LambChop ~ #1.3 -- So how is it a "leftist" rant NOT to want people to kill other people? Is that like saying that right wingers DO?

By the way, for my sauce, I'd like an orange juice reduction with brown sugar and rosemary. Mint jelly for you?

One thing's for sure. You're easy to bait. And that's a coincidence -- so am I.

@ no joe ~ #1.4 -- and that means we shouldn't try? Okay. I give up. But you'll tell that to the families of the current and the next shooting victims, won't you?

Because, ironically, I don't have the heart.

This is important information. Even for a "reasonable" second amendment, self protection person, there is almost little self protection value in this kind of automatic round instruments that were banned until 2004. We also need to do better with ensuring only responsible people get to own these things including possibly not making issues such as drug and mental condition to be self regulated criteria basically.

So what do you propose pork chop? You know, rather than the usual Leftist rants.

Very simple...the United States Army rejected Jared Loughner because they found him to be mentally unstable. If the Army won't let you carry a gun because of your mental condition then you should not be allowed to carry a gun as a civilian.

Can you not agree to that?

That might have been enough in this case, Da Noid, although I heard he was rejected for drug use, not mental instability. Even so, however, there are many others that wouldn't have been affected.

We need to do more. What I want to know is why "now is not the time to talk about gun control," which is what I keep hearing from both left and right, and just heard again now on Andrea Mitchell's show.

WHY is this not the PERFECT time to talk about gun control?

true...

instead he would have brought a machete in and started hacking people to bits...

or perhaps grabbed some fertilizer and made a bomb...

GET REAL! Where there is a will there is a way and taking away his gun would NOT have prevented this mad-man from doing harm to others!

...so, obviously, we should just do nothing. Really?

no joe, no bo, nj

My post early i said that there is NO reason why a civilion should be able to buy a 30 clip mag. the glock is used by cops all over, that model is popular with street cops. the mag 30 clip mag however is not standard issue for cops, so why should a civilion be able to buy this. also that 30 clip mag was apart of the assult weaponds band under the clinton administration.

@ SickOf ~ I simply MUST get Rachel Maddow busy preparing a list of all the mass machete hackings in the past few years. I wonder how she could have overlooked it.

In the mean time, on the subject of bomb making, most of the recent domestic terrorist bomb throwing, including the recent bombs on the east coast, one of which was aimed at Janet Napolitano, appear to have been done by the right wing. Do you REALLY want to have that discussion?

Da Noid is right. Since drunk driving happens, should we stop trying to prevent it? Since murder happens anyway, should we just stop prosecuting it? Might as well stop filling the potholes on the road. They'll just come back anyway.

Sigh.

Perhaps the school officials could have petitioned the court to compel him to have a psychiatric evaluation? I am pretty sure that an open petition would have shown up on the instant background check, while a dismissed drug paraphernalia charge did not, nor would it.

There are plenty of failures that led to this tragedy, but I agree with those who say that, since he was determined to kill, he would have found a way.

If only he had been forced to undergo evaluation and treated. . .

That's right!

Why do you liberals ALWAYS think you have to fix EVERYTHING? Life can be mean and ugly. You can't fix that. How naive you must be.

People that dont have guns but want to hurt someone can simply drive their car... really fast... right into a crowd. Should we take away cars now?

Grow up! We don't need you to fix everything in our lives... we understand that sometimes that means people get hurt... that's life... and dont talk to me about how I would be talking differently if it had happened to someone in my family. My little sister was beat to death by a wackedout SOB. It cause an infinite amount of pain to my family... but that SOB died in prison.

WELCOME TO LIFE!

BTW.. Anne Molly... your are so idealistic you dont make sense.

Becasue drunk driving happens we should just make all cars illegal shouldn't we! WRONG! the car did not kill the victim... the DRUNK DID!

Use the brain God gave you girl!

Jeff, there are few people who know less about guns than I. Perhaps clips that hold that many bullets should be banned. I truly would not know the difference between a glock and a Remington rifle.

It might have slowed him down, but I do not think it would have stopped him. In his irrational state, he seems to have developed a fixation with the congresswoman, thought she had either rejected or otherwise harmed him, and was determined to harm her.

If only the school officials had done more than suggest he get a psychiatric evaluation, we might all have been discussing something else.

Anna Molly's views on gun ownership and gun control remind me of mine when I was young - very young, in fact, perhaps about 13 or 14 - and well before I learned to think for myself instead of buying into the idea that the liberal viewpoint is the only default and correct viewpoint.

Sick of the Bickering.

You're the one bickering here, or at least kvetching, and that does little to further discussion. Really old, stale, overused and easily disabused as an argument. Seriously. This is precisely what we must get over if we are going to survive as a free democracy anywhere close to being worth living in.

Unlike what we see in movies: someone brandishing a machete with karate like moves and perfect reactions--realife machetes are heavy, and awkward. The killer wouldn't get very far into the crowd before being disarmed or subdued. As to the fertilizer--well, they do have watchlists on those things, because we all know that Bombs kill people and/also People kill People.

The reality is, we are far more dangerous to one another than we are to any "government overthrow" and except for the few that can't let go of their re-enactment groups, we need to stipulate to that devil's advocate and completely disingenuous argument.

In other words, the question remains this: Do we want to live in a society where any and every one of us could kill the other and maybe 20 more if (you/I) piss one another off?

The question is: How is it that the NRA and the RRRRWW have convinced some of us to embrace and even insist upon owning huge caliber automatic, machine guns such as the "Ruskies" carried around in the 1960's?

No one is saying we are going to take away hunting rifles and even personal protection handguns properly registered with --wait for it---enforceable regulations. We're saying that the odds of you getting mugged by 20 or more thugs out of nowhere as you're shopping at your nearby Safeway--are as we say in Vegas:

Slim to none.

Unless, of course, practically every single one of us is also armed and dangerous?

Frankly, I'm sick of it.

So, all I am asking is that we learn to begin to unravel the false talking points, devil's advocate alternatives, all diversion tactics. We've been there. Done that.

Move on already. And if you don't know something for sure--we librarians have a saying we're fond of passing on to you.

Look it up.

Hey Librarian...

Perhaps you should do some research regarding a half a million people that were killed by machete in Sudan during their bBLOODY civil war...

LOOK IT UP!

As for Anne Molly, she would do well to learn the serenity prayer...

God, grant me the serenity

To accept the things I cannot change;

Courage to change the things I can;

And wisdom to know the difference.

Perhaps this will make more sense to her has she matures.

Here's my serenity prayer:

Hail to the Ineffable! Please grant me the wisdom

To visualize change that You would approve of:

And the mind and clear-thinking to follow through.

Courage in the face of all obstacles and

The Innate ability to maintain Serenity.

Thank you, God, Awesome.

ED: Anna Molly's views on gun ownership and gun control remind me of mine when I was young - very young, in fact, perhaps about 13 or 14 - and well before I learned to think for myself instead of buying into the idea that the liberal viewpoint is the only default and correct viewpoint.

One of the things that is interesting with Liberals is their desire to make sure for what ever bad has happened, it "Will never happen again". Certainly measures can be taken to mitigate many if not most of the problems in society. But you get that feeling, the Liberal feeling, that that is just enough for the Liberals.

And this brings us to the "Well, what do you suggest?" question to the Liberals. For example, think about what it would take to eliminate all guns. We would need an authoritative government, a government that would first outlaw weapons for the masses. A government that would execute unannounced, unwarranted search and seizure of weapons from all of our citizens, and access to all citizens property to conduct those searches. Penalties for noncompliance would be stiff, up to and including state and federal executions. The populace would of course be "safe". That pesky 2nd amendment would have to be repealed of course. And any protesters of that happening would of course be a problem, they would need to be labeled instigators and threats to society, so we might as well get rid of that pesky 1st amendment at the same time so they too can be punished.

Welcome to LiberalLand where you will be well protected from everything, except the government.

The 30 round clip argument is nebulous. The AWB prevented the manufacture and import of high capacity clips/magazines - he could have bought a used one (pre ban) for an extra $5.00. Get rid of and confiscate every 30 rounder - the competitive shooters make changes in less a second. So what if he downloaded a video / practiced a few minutes and got it down to 2 seconds?

No joe is the one of the few (if not only) who have addressed the real issue that we should be addressing, that is relevant and meaningful. The mental health issue.

One of his teachers at community college had other students from the class coming upto him expressing fear and worry about him being a crazy. They were worried about him being a shooter! Campus police came 5 times to the class? The guy standing in the class, ranting, clenching his fists while grinning.....on and on. No one reported him! No one has a DSM IV diagnosis on him, but the kids in the class knew he was crazy!

Schizophrenia typically starts manifesting at late teens / early adulthood. Look at the shoootings history. Should there be a discussion about teachers receiving some type of training/understanding on mental health disorders, what to look for - the civic responsibility to at least issue a concern that might lead to the discover of these very disturbed individuals.

Doesn't this make much more sense than all the other emotional hyperbole such as cross hairs, political rhetoric nonsense and hysteria of 30 round clips?

One thing for sure, if he had been discovered as he so easily could have been, there would be no nebulous stuff about cross hairs and 30 round clips.

"SickOfTheBickering",

Banning cars and banning guns are NOT the same thing.

1. The car has multiple purposes. Yes, you can use it to intentionally run over someone but that was not the reason why it was invented. The gun has one purpose and one purpose only...to injure or kill someone.

2. I have to pass a road test (demonstrate that I am capable of safely operating a vehicle) to get a driver's license. Am I required to pass a test to be able to get a permit to carry a gun?

One of my hobbies is auto racing. We deal with something called "acceptable risk". That means that nothing is ever going to be 100% safe (kinda like life) but there are things that are more prone to put you or someone else in danger.

Would Loughner have found a way to try and kill if he couldn't get a gun? Sure, but that doesn't mean that you just throw up your hands and say, "Oh, well." It's simple logic...if the US Army won't give you a gun why should we let you have one as a civilian?

Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

"Anna Molly",

Well, there was Governor Brewer's issue with the headless corpses found in the desert...

no joe, no bo, nj

One thing for sure if this guy would have been in Illinois, there is No way he would have been able to buy a gun as quickly as he did.

DaNoid,

The gun has one purpose and one purpose only...to injure or kill someone.

Well, except for target shooting, recreational shooting, competitive shooting and that personal/home defense stuff. Might want to rethink trying to preserve your life, or the life of a loved with your race car in the middle of the night with an intruder in the house.

Am I required to pass a test to be able to get a permit to carry a gun?

Huh...yea!

I've been around a track a few times (3 laps - Ferrari F-40 @ College Station; Indy car ride / tandem @ Las Vegas), have the run lights a few times and did more than a little moto-cross. Hitting a milk carton at 700 yards is actually more exciting than the Indy ride. I admit that driving a paddle shift Gallardo or riding an R1 is more fun, but you would be surprised at how the focus and being smooth in a corner - getting it right - is similar to the focus and being smooth - getting everything right - on a long distance shot, or shooting a half inch group at a 100 yds, or.......

You should be able to grasp that, unless you believe no one needs to drive a car except for utilitarian reasons.

Thank you,Bob...

What noid seems to be unable to grasp is the fact that my example... however simple or ridiculous... is on par with his idea regarding guns.

"Why is this so difficult for you to grasp" I'm sure...

Uh, no...no, the example you gave is NOT on par...it's not even close. Only because of your desire to be correct do you think they are equivalent.

By the way, it's important to note that I'm not looking to take away everybody's guns. I'm saying we need to try and keep them away from the Jared Loughners of this country. But, in your world you look at the situation and have declared, "Ah, screw it, he'd have found some way to kill people anyway so, go ahead, let him have a gun."

Steven ~ From what I've been reading out here, I think it couldn't hurt. People need to confront the details of these tragedies -- otherwise, it's too easy to just dismiss them, as I have already seen some do, as just another bad act by a mad man. Maybe so, but those were REAL people who died and were injured. We have to stop treating mass shootings like some sort of video game.

Dear Steve in Highlands Ranch--I used to live in Lakewood and LoDo How are you doing with that big mcMansion out the in Highland.

Do you watch TV? Do you watch Law and Order, CSI, NCIS, Burn Notice--most of it in other words. I can't imagine you are that queasy...

This is real. And I do think that we should know the details, gory as they are. We should have it brought home and hard to each and every one of us. Why did he have an extended magazine or three? Why could he buy a human killing weapon? Why? Why? Why did these innocent people including the Congresswoman have to die or be wounded for life? Things need to change. We need to change.

I'm also from Tucson--I was born there. My grown daughter lives there and was about half a mile from the shooting massacre when it happened and was locked down in her neighborhood the next day. Too much information for you?

Let us know when you stop watching TV.

Actually I hate commercials so I watch movies and pay channels, sports sometimes not the soap opra or 'reality' tv shows. I don't live in a McMansion (lol I wish -1650 sq ft.) It has nothing to do with queasiness, I'm thinking of the victims. I personally believe that ALL handguns should be banned (handguns are made for killing PEOPLE nothing else) and that it shows alot about our species that we need any type of weapon at all to settle our disputes or vent our frustration.

These innocent people die every day because we absolutely SUCK as a species.

He had a permit. He used an extended clip so it held twice as many rounds than normal. As long as this fool didn't have a felony conviction; he was allowed to purchase a weapon. The weapon and clip used are both legal. There are many things including weapons that some may think you do not need but in this country you are free to purchase whatever is legal or illegal if that is your perogative.

This guy was a damn fool period. Shootings like this go unoticed in the hood everyday. Gangs kill in mass at times and nothing is never said. America has a MURDER problem.

IntheMiddle, TX

Please post the artical of mass Killing in the citys like what happened saturday, it has never happened.
the worse shooting a ever heard of in chicago was a few months ago when a kid was shot 21 times.
but mass killing INtheMiddle please post artical.

i agree this guy was a dam fool, and hell bent of doing nothing but killing.

True, ITM, very true. But that's not cause to dismiss it or ignore it. Indeed, that's all the more reason to address it.

And just so you know, I bang this particular drum all the time ... not just in cases like this.

Indeed, Hamlet--

I, too, have noticed the uptight return to the wild west atmosphere. I drive to Tucson from Vegas to visit my daughter and the situation there is terrible.

The fear and mistrust are almost palpable.

Poor Arizona.

LibLib;

AZ was hijacked by the Crazy Rightwing Retired Religious Republican War Wing of the crazy rightwing is my take on it for now?

RRRRWW?

Yes Hamlet--

That's one acronym you could place on RRRRWW. Fact is, I just started thinking that it was such an amalgam of Rs and Ws to describe the worldview of a certain take...

It can stand for anything you want. Personally, I like your straightforward names. Less insulting than say, *libtard...

Just sayin'

Dear LibLib;

But Retard is a word and so is Republican and so on... What shall I do?

Dear Hamlet.

I've read your posts and many of them are spot on and hilarious to boot...

Not sure what to advise you other than to hang onto your better angels..

...as much as you can!

Dear LibLib;

"Really Ridiculous Realizing Reality Would Work" hows that?

Ok!

See, I like that! That works for me. It's the beauty of acronyms...

Sometimes when words leave much to be desired, a good acronym can come in so handy!

"Crazy Rightwing Retired Religious Republican War Wing of the crazy rightwing" or RRRRWW, I've been trying to be good and non-partisan all day, but that's funny.

WOW! this chain of posts equates to a "Liberal Knob-Slobbin' Contest'

You go Girls!