Well said Bev... what people fail to realize is that when a group of people get riled up with simple words... there are always consequences to be faced. In this shooters case, we can't say that he was directly led by right wing operative because he seems to just have a screw loose; it's a fact that the political atmosphere is at fever pitch and it will only end bad. It's simple logic people.

Beverly: the problem with treatment of the mentally ill is that mental illness has no parity with physical illness in most insurance plans. Also, money to communities to provide treatment and care for the mentally ill have been eviscerated by the right wing, starting with Reagan and going forward. If people want to have a serious dialog about mental health and treatment, it begins as it always does with money. We know so much more about how the brain works now, there is no excuse for treating mental illness as a separate issue from physical illness. So, folks on the right, and I begin with no jo....what are YOU willing to fund?

newdayDAWNING10

Beverly: the problem with treatment of the mentally ill is that mental illness has no parity with physical illness in most insurance plans.

I glad you pointed out insurance. newday

This is even more reason healthcare should not be repealed. In addition to the services needed for the mentally ill, the law would also provide a sane, healthy economy.

Bev;

I agree. This is the time to acknowledge our short comings, take responsibility for our actions (all parties) and work to make sure it does not happen again, or at least reduce the possibility.

Words are a powerful tool. They have meanings and conjure up images. High schools, colleges and universities all have teach classes on how to use words. We learn it in debate club, we learn it in Literature when we write our term papers, there are even degreed people who work with words everyday to sway the opinions of people. Marketing, Advertising, Sales, Politicians, Public Speakers etc, are all train in the power of words. We learn how to create power phrases to solicit a particular response. It is when these tools are misused that the problem develops.When you cloak you speech or rhetoric in hate and violence you are going to get a similar response from some people. It makes no difference if you claim, "well it was a metaphors" BS, that is a cop out and false. Anybody who promotes hate and violence needs to be called out and held responsible. I will support that position 100% with anybody. No party favorites here.

Maybe America will wake up and write their elected officials, send letters to the media, send letters to sponsors of radio and TV and tell them we are not going to stand for it anymore. We are better than that and we deserve civil and honest debate. Anything else is not OK.

MSNBC’s feisty redhead, Ed Schultz, of the Mr. Ed Show was in his usual full-moron form last night. Who does he have on as a guest to speak to the question of whether or not Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman “are going too far” with their gunsight poster and “armed and dangerous” statement?

None other than the king of “going too far”, loud- mouthed, moron, one-term ex-Congressman Alan Grayson!!

That clown got clobbered in his first re-election try last year, losing by 60% to 40%. Someone needs to tell Grayson and Mr. Ed that Grayson’s 15 minutes were up last November 3^rd.

How true. On FT yesterday after the first page it became a hate fest with name calling and all the trimmings rom one side

No kidding Retired! I'm kinda disappointed with out hosts for allowing the collapse-a-thon that happened over there!

My hope was that if anything positive could have come out of the senseless tradgedy was that we could have an open honest discussion on political discourse...

By 10:00 yesterday morning it became apparent that was NOT going to happen! :o(

Go back and listen to the clips of Palin hollering, 'Don't retreat - RELOAD'!!!

Listen to the crowd go beserk! It's like every single one of them found out they are on the Oprah's Favorite Things Show!

SICKENING!

Joe;

Stop with the name calling already. You complain about it and you do it in the first sentence of your post. Disagree is fine and I encourage it. I even sometimes think you have a point but do not respond because I know you will eventually start with the name game. Let us all try to be civil. If not, we become part of the problem.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Joe;

Stop with the name calling already. You complain about it and you do it in the first sentence of your post. Disagree is fine and I encourage it. I even sometimes think you have a point but do not respond because I know you will eventually start with the name game. Let us all try to be civil. If not, we become part of the problem

Navy

This is why I agreed with yesterday's thread even though I did have time to weigh in.

Mixed (bipartisan) seating at the SOTU, to avoid the spectacle of one side jumping up to applaud and the other sitting glumly.
2. A bipartisan retreat for each house of Congress.
3. Regular visits to the district/state of a member of a different party.

If any one knows anything about group dynamics they'd almost be forced to agree these suggestions are a step in the right direction.

==================================================

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

How’s this for ‘Fair & Balanced’?

Fox News Abruptly Cuts Feed From Giffords Vigil When Mourner Mentions Sarah Palin

I saw that yesterday and put it in one of the numerous posts where righties were trying to defend the right. The point is GF they can't. It's a false equivalency.

Furthermore, Fox has out Fox their lies.


I peeped in yesterday. They are lost trying to defend their violent metaphors.

Fiesty...what about Obama saying "if they bring a knife to the fight you bring a gun?"

Before we start with this bullsh!t again this morning - here's that comment amongst others in 'context':

Shout out to Fletch2 for allowing me to borrow this!

Obama: "They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun"“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama told the audience. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.

** Obama to His Followers: "Get in Their Faces!"“I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: "I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I'm angry!".......I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry. I’m angry,” Mr. Obama said, his voice reaching a peak seven days after learning of the bonuses given to employees of the American International Group. “What I want to do, though, is channel our anger in a constructive way.”

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: "Hit Back Twice As Hard".....And they screened TV ads and reviewed the various campaigns by critics of the Democratic plan. If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard, Messina(not Obama) said, according to an official who attended the meeting.

** Obama on the private sector: "We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick."....NBC's Matt Lauer asked Obama about the criticism that he should spend more time in the Gulf instead of with experts and "kick some butt."...Obama told NBC his deliberations have been more than academic......."I don't sit around talking to experts because this is a college seminar," Obama continued. "We talk to these folks because they potentially have the best answers, so I know whose ass to kick."

Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean "hand to hand combat"...........A Republican majority in Congress would mean “hand-to-hand combat” on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy, President Obama warned Wednesday…"They are fired up. They are mobilized. They see an opportunity to take back the House, maybe take back the Senate," he said. "If they're successful in doing that, they've already said they're going to go back to the same policies that were in place during the Bush administration. That means that we are going to have just hand-to-hand combat up here on Capitol Hill."

Obama to lib supporters: "It's time to Fight for it." ...."When it comes to taking a punch, I don't know whether you're Muhammad Ali or Floyd Patterson," Axelrod wrote to Obama in a November 2006 memo reported in a new book that reprises the campaign by Washington Post political reporter Dan Balz and former Post writer Haynes Johnson. Now Obama supporters are wondering about their man. If they're to see what he's made of, Obama has to first get in the ring. Forget the niceties, it's time to fight.

Obama to Latino supporters: "Punish your enemies."..“If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, ‘We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,’ if they don’t see that kind of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it’s gonna be harder and that’s why I think it’s so important that people focus on voting on November 2.”

** Obama to democrats: "I'm itching for a fight."As fellow Democrats accuse him of caving in to Republicans on the tax cut deal, President Obama is repeatedly promising them that he will fight the GOP aggressively when it takes over the U.S. House and adds senators next month. "I will be happy to see the Republicans test whether or not I'm itching for a fight on a whole range of issues," Obama said last week. "I suspect they will find I am. And I think the American people will be on my side on a whole bunch of these fights."

Enough with this... well you guys do it to!

We'll be waiting for you to put into context: 'Bullets over Ballots'! or 'Second Amendment remedies'!

newday:

You are absolutely correct that currently mental illness does have parity with physical illness.

Mental illness is an equal opportunity disease. It strikes rich/poor, males/females, republicans/democrats, old/ young (depending on the dx). There are some excellent medications now available to quiet the demons, control the impulses, reduce delusional thinking. There have also been improvements in treating the mentally ill in terms of case managers involved with treatment as opposed to old fashion "therapy'.

With the new health care law, there will be parity with physical illness, but it doesn't begin until 2014. It's a shame that Republicans resisted the bill as the law will greatly reduce the pain and suffering of families and victims.

Well said, Beverly and others. The Life-affirming Health Care law passed by democrats, which republicans plan to repeal, included mental illness treatment on parity with other illnesses; it requires insurance companies to allow treatment. There are many aspects of the demonized HCR which greatly improves the health of people, not just physically but mentally. If we as a society are unwilling to help with treatment for the mentally ill, then we continue allowing people like Loughner who need help to do harm.

We also need to step up and fund Community Services programs. Things like Social clubs, to help avoid isolation, transportation to get folks around the community for the same reason, help with medication costs, the new line meds are VERY expensive. Increased funding for individual living sites as well as group homes. ALL of this needs to be funded, I wonder if the folks on the right will be more willing to talk about this now.

Wow...President Obama's so called violent hate speech is such wimpy, milk toast by comparison. The most violent thing up there is the comment about bringing guns to a knife fight which images two armed individuals who have enjoined with the intention of fighting.

The imagery of the right over the past two years has been, generally speaking, "EVERYBODY GO GET YOUR GUNS AND LETS SHOOT THE LIBERAL CONGRESS! IT'S THE END OF AMERICA! TO ARMS! TO ARMS!"

Can the same person who culled out these quotes gather up a dozen or so of the best ones from the right side of the isle, Feisty? I mean...There are so many to choose from. I guess photos from the various political rallies with people brandishing handguns and assault rifles will have to be left out considering the fact that images can't be shared here.

Feisty;

Nice touch. How about they defend "lock and load", "don't retreat, reload", Obamacare is going to "kill" grandma. What images do they think these generate. I do not think they are talking about changing pen refills. Words have meanings, they conjure up images and sometimes this is all the stimulus a nut job needs to justify a violent action. Freedom of Speech comes with responsibility and accountability.

Did the media (including political rhetoric) contribute to the slaying this weekend? I think so, at least in part. Too many people use inappropriate speech for their own agenda. Why do we have Rush, Glenn Beck, Hannity, Fox News and others? Because people follow them and listen to them and even believe them. Why do we have Rachael, Keith and LarryO? For the same reason. Each trying to counter the other to some extent. One group resorts to hate and violence in their dialogue, the other tries to approach it from the opposite side.

The crap I am still seeing leads me to believe that those 6 precious lives have been lost in vain. We have learned nothing and it will back to te same old same old in no time. Too bad. We have every opportunity to be a Great Nation and we are turning our backs on this opportunity.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Joe;

Stop with the name calling already. You complain about it and you do it in the first sentence of your post. Disagree is fine and I encourage it. I even sometimes think you have a point but do not respond because I know you will eventually start with the name game. Let us all try to be civil. If not, we become part of the problem.

__________________________________

Get back to me after you start holding the posters whose positions you agree with to the same standard.

Our forefathers all felt that freedom of speech, primarily political speech, should be protected at all costs. They had suffered under the oppressive rule of the monarchy and it's limits on free speech in the public forum. Anyone that tries to score political points from this tragedy is self-serving and should be chastised, but it is certainly their right.

Funny thing about all those wanting the rhetoric toned down: It only applies to the other guy.

Well said Watt,

I know that Feisty can have calm collective intelligent conversations, I have been involved with her on them when you take up certain topics. Even Navy can do it when he is thinking for himself and not "cutting & pasting". Even First Read has asked for civil behavior, and yet it can't happen. Whether it is the right or the left--everyone points a finger. Sad isn't it?

Whether it is the right or the left--everyone points a finger. Sad isn't it?

Sooner or later... someone's gonna have to 'blink' first!

Thanks BigBear! ;o)

US Navy-

I seem to recall that you once expressed to Eric, Salinas how much you enjoyed reading his posts.

That really kind of sums up your credibility on the issue of more...not less, civility, doesn't it?

Big Bear:

Well said!

Our choices are rather simple. Either we get along and engage in civil conversation...or this will not end well for our country.

Now Mixed Bag:

Play nice. And I still owe you a compliment. I'm sure we can find common ground at some time in the future.

My dear old friend, Bagboy ~ I confess to having liked Eric's posts, too, actually, but you would be hard-pressed to accuse me of being uncivil -- except to you, of course, and then only when you deserve it. There's a big difference between thinking and doing, which is why we have the First Amendment in the first place. Some of the extremist rhetoric I have heard, including Glenn Beck's, for example, seems deliberately calculated to incite people to cross that line.

I seem to recall that you once expressed to Eric, Salinas how much you enjoyed reading his posts.

Very disappointing that you have bring up someone who quit posting here 6+ months ago!

I guess if that's the only hand you have - you might as well play it!

So much for moving the conversation forward...

PS: Let me save you the trouble - I also enjoyed some of Eric's posts!

Snausage?

I'm going to leave the "fault" conversation alone - there's been enough of that.

Having said that, am I the only one who thinks that in this day and age, a call to arms and weapons to resolve political discourse is the workings of a small mind calling out to other small minds? No one knows better than a politician (or a media person) the power of words to ratchet up fear and hate - it's how they do their job. If the only argument you have is "don't retreat - reload", is it impossible to figure out that you don't have the intelligence to form a valid argument based on facts?

Why would you need guns in any political discussion? The only reason I can come up with is to incite violence.

Feisty-

Not a very effective rebuttal to what I actually posted.

The issue was not WHEN Eric, Salinas posted here, but rather, the content of WHAT he posted here...and the positive response by many of you to his hateful rants.

Judging from those responses, I'd say that the level of civility shown by Eric was well within the boundaries that most First Readers not only found acceptable, but laudable.

Now, most of you are furiously back-pedaling in an effort to establish your sincere desire for an end to ungracious discourse...not too convincingly, I'm afraid.

I will apologize for cutting US Navy out of the First Read herd...when it comes to incivility at this site, I should have cast a much wider net.

Again...sorry.

Well stated Beverly. And note the response fom Dennis indicates he subscribes to the planned book release called Palin-tology. A study of the profound and deepest of deep insights of Sarah Palin. Its three pages long.

@ Dennis ~ Even if this WAS a political assassination attempt, the mere fact that there have been others throughout history hardly makes it acceptable. Apparently, from Chris Mathews reported, we lead the universe in political assassinations. What's that all about? Moreover, there is a BIG difference here. And that's the morphing of this maybe-political shooting into a random mass shooting because of the availability to the shooter of an assault weapon. However you weasel, Dennis, you can't ignore the implications raised by that, unless you are saying that society should be prepared to tolerate not only political assassination, which is bad enough, but also the random murders of others who only happen to be nearby.

Stop spinning for a moment and answer this question:

What is the reason why we should tolerate any of those things, Dennis?

p.s. I'd say something about your calling Beverly an idiot in the first line of your post, the ad hominem attack being the first response of a person who has no argument himself, and hardly calculated to provoke civility from the rest of us, but it speaks for itself, doesn't it?

road, you're right, if you watch closely, you can see palin on the grassy knoll. the media and the left are the only people paying any attention to palin.

as for the media, I now know that the nutjob in az probably has links to the left. if there were anything to link him to the right, besides the media's lame attempt to bring up a celebrity (palin), had there been any real link to the right, every headline would be calling this guy a right wing this and conservative that, plus it would be mentioned several times throughout the articles. this hasn't happened, so the media is obviously burying it. not that it would matter to the lemmings on this board.

Uh, this shooting was done by a kook. Case closed.

johnluci: Why would you need guns in any political discussion? The only reason I can come up with is to incite violence.

This is exactly the point.

I will not blame anyone other than the shooter for Saturday's violence. He bought the gun, he aimed it, he pulled the trigger.

However, in the kind of society where that is possible and (gasp) legal, are we really wise to use words which can incite crazies like this to do this terrible things?

We may be able to account for our words and to speak them and hear them and not act on them. But there are those out there, and they will always be there, who do not have our self control. Can we really afford to be so careless? That's all people are saying. Use some judgment, choose your words, give it some thought before reacting.

So all of us need to be more discerning. We need to temper the things we may say in anger. We need to have more respect for our fellow man. We are intelligent enough to make our point without inciting violence. Aren't we?

@gfganesh ~ Three pages? The authors clearly overthought that. What a waste of ink.

If anyone TRULY believes that conservative talk-radio influenced the Arizona shooter (who is in the left-wing camp anyway) to commit his horrendous crime, then we should ban violent movies, gangster rap, and sexually provocative TV shows/ads. We should enact all those bans to deter future bombers, cop killers, rapists, misogynists, perpetrators of domestic violence, madmen, etc.

Gee, if the comparatively tame speech of Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, O'Reilly, and Fox News is so dangerous that it motivates unstable nuts to commit heinous acts, we ought to take action against shoot-em-up "action movies" that showcase death and destruction, raunchy music lyrics that call cops "pigs" and women "whores" and "bitches," and TV shows/ads designed to appeal to prurient interests. But guess what? When such censorship is considered/debated, the same critics of conservative talk-radio howl their collective disapproval and cite the concept of "freedom of speech." A double-standard is the religion of the left-wing.

Your comments are made less palatable for patriotic conservatives, those you might hope to influence, by closing with an appeal to "comrades", the favored word for fellow communists among communists.

Dennis "It does not surprise me that the liberal politicians and media are trying to exploit this as something other than it is. A whacked out sick individual that is an extremist in his views."

Not at all unlike 9/11 and launching 2 wars against 2 nations that had nothing to do with 9/11 right? Please dont use the excuse "they trained in afghanistan"...cuz, they trained how to fly planes into buildings in america, and we didnt attack florida...did we?

Im sorry, but 9/11 has changed everythign...and if it was ok then to "root out extremist views" the world over, then surely its justified to root it out here in america, in which its taken an ugly hold.

What you have said is very true, however, as you have read in the news today no politican has allowed this to interfer with their hate messages...the sad thing today is that no politican we have really does or says what they mean only what they want us to hear....the news media is no different...the right and left both claim to be free from any blame nor will accept any...it is always someone elses fault....unless it has to do with this failing economy,,,then its the middle class at fault as with the housing mess..first..banking lobbyist wanted and got the deregulation of the financial markets..then the banks created the loans that were sold both to home buyers and wall street..of course the first ones to feel the pain is the home buyers when the bankers raised the interest rates...

The politicans today and the news media have their own issues in mind when they do anything...for the politican, its either to get re-elected or get elected...for the news media...its to make money...if spouting hate messages to the public does it for them..then so be it..they will not stop as long as it suits them..

All this sanctimony. . .

Before this tragedy, I asked the moderators to, once again, allow Tyler to do his job, as things had certainly deteriorated.

The ad hominem attacks, name calling, and vitriol have reached new heights on this board. Not surprisingly, this escalation occurred AFTER the mid terms.

If you guys are serious about "changing the tone", for heaven's sake let Tyler go back to work. If the people responsible for most of the vile postings do not straighten up and fly right, ban them. They add nothing to the discussion.

Per Merriam, just a few synonyms for "feisty": assaultive, aggressive, warlike, belligerent, bellicose, touchy, quarrelsome, combative, militant.

So, if you mean what you say, why don't you set an example for the rest of us by changing your name? For once, why don't you start practicing what you preach from that high horse of yours?

MB:

I have acknowledged many on this board for their individual comments, even republicans. That does not mean in any form that I agree with their attitudes or some of their other statements or posts. Just that particular piece or even a piece of that post. To try and paint me with such a broad brush is wrong in my opinion and lumping me in with masses is a mistake, in my opinion.

As with others on this post I am reviewing my own rhetoric as well.

Bev,

I don't know why you were collapsed. But if you're waiting for any sense of remorse or responsibility from the Right, you can forget it. My advise to all of my fellow Democrats and Progressives is to buy a gun, learn to shoot and defend yourself. Don't start anything. Don't push back. Just wait. Read your state laws about carrying a firearm. Obey those laws. If you go to a political event, be prepared to defend yourself and those around you. I do not advocate violence at all. But none of us needs to be a victim of this kind of fear and hate mongering.

Everyone was pissed when the girl shoving her way towards Rand Paul and got her head stepped on. Dont you wish someone would of stepped on this cowards head. As for your thoughts Beverly it was not an assault that caused this. Maybe if one person would of had a CCW it would of ended in a couple of deaths(still tragic). So before all the people start firing back think about this maybe we should put a ban on the internet. It leads to whole lot of deaths by why of terrorists use it as a recruitment tool so do white and black supremest. There are web sites for child pornography and to have an affair on your spouse. You look up how to make a bomb. Also if you read alittle more on the many stories about this topic you would of seen this moron hated government. Im sure he would shot people from any party. You have no more proof than me saying it was the liberals who did it so they could try to enforce a gun ban.

KSte

Also if you read alittle more on the many stories about this topic you would of seen this moron hated government.


I read that




Beverly in Chicago Comment collapsed by the community

Reposted due to the cyberspace bullies

Clip it

When the Virginia Tech shooting occurred, I began to reflect on it and the consequences of the killings at Columbine High School too. I reject that rhetoric and metaphors alluding to death and violence did not spark the shooter’s becoming unhinged. When Byron Williams, another troubled young man, attempted to assassinate the leaders of the Tides foundations and ACLU leaders, Williams confessed he was inspired by right wing radio talker & TV pundit, Glenn Beck.

Now is the time for a ban on assult weapons as well as better monitoring and restrictions of people with psychotic disorders.,

As I’ve said before I’ve lived through Jim Crow, multiple assassinations of our leaders, including President John Kennedy and his bother Robert Kennedy, Dr Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, (who changed his militant views after a visit to Mecca), Medgar Evans, the 2 white men KILLED during the struggle of the Civil Rights, the bombing of little children and the ugly violence which led to the deaths of 6 people including a very bright 9 year old. This shooting also injured and maimed 13 others, plus the grief felt not only by their families and friends feel but also this whole nation.

All this was to supposedly win equal protection under the law for citizens. No, No, violence and death is NOT the answer. Progress was painfully slow prior to the time since and after the end of the Civil War. We can’t duplicate the time factor of yesteryears in modern days because we can advocate for greater gun control. Certainly, if we realize how NOT having better laws and restrictions we could stymie the murky process We don’t need violent rhetoric, deaths, and assault weapons which could led to another one because of paranoia fueled by talking points and calls to action. The perceived expression for free speech and the right to bear arms soon becomes an illegall blocking for everyone in this country. Life, liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness were spoken by one of our Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson. The most important of these is precious LIFE. The right to ratchet up violence, death, and hostilities against either side is not what Thomas Jefferson meant; even if it makes one happy in some perverse way.

Sarah Palin? Here’s a chance for her to prove her symbols were really harmless. And that the tea she drinks honestly is for its flavor rather than its syllogisms of hate, vitriolic, obstruction, more tax beaks for the rich and powerful, and anti-government. If she could be sincere, it is time for her to prove to America her presidential aspirations have leadership qulities. She should NOT hide behind Fox Noise. Even if she doesn’t want to apologize, she can pull her troops together by advocating she does NOT think the overthrow of the U.S. government with violent actions and death threats is American or patriotic.. She could also push the issue of banning assault weapons and advocating bold restrictions on the mentally ill. The reality for Sarah is our society does not need individuals experiencing delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, visibly incoherent thought patterns influenced by violent rhetoric symbols, and incendiary metaphors.

I have several wishes for the future. I wish Congesswonan Giffords continues to have less edema (swelling) in her brain. I hope whatever functions she has left she will use them to the of her abilities and contine to do whatever makes her happy. I want all all the families and friends of those affected by this tradgey find peace and hamony.When President Obama head to Arizona for the Memorial Service may he be safe.

Fellow comrades, let’s turn our collective pain into the power that will “nip mocked justice in the bud”.

There is no doubt this young man is severely disturbed.

But to claim that the bile spewed forth daily on hate radio shows has no affect upon people is ridiculous. If it didn't they wouldn't continue to spew their hate on a daily basis.

Some commentators have gotten very very rich inciting the intellectually challenged.

The average IQ in America is only 100. That means half the people you see in your local shopping center have an IQ of 100 or less. Perhaps 1/3 have an IQ of 70 or below. These people believe you really save money rushing out to buy stuff advertised on sale.

Advertising pays and pays well.

Hate radio is a form of advertising.

It advertises the philosophy of the right wing and with the right wing language of " don't retreate -- reload " and numerous other uses of incendiary language the right wing attempts to militarize the mindset of it's listeners. Many of whom are intellectually deficient.

You don't have to be an Einstein to understand that when people with limited mental facilities or mental illness listen to this hate being vomited forth every day ... day after day ... it can motivate people to action such as occurred in Tucson.

Free speech has it's limits ... you can't shout " FIRE " in a theater. Nor should radio personalities and / or politicians be allowed to use the terminology of violence. Using terms such as " don't retreat .. reload " and " we'll use bullets if ballots fail " should draw prison terms. Both these phrases have been used by politicians recently. And repeated by some political commentators.

Placing the image of gunsites on your targets is another example of things that should be banned.

Sure rational people don't act because of these things ... but not everyone walking the streets is rational and they ARE influenced by the rhetoric.

You are sick, and your thinly veiled accusatory tone is plainly partisan. Fellow comrades sums you up perfectly, you sick twisted waste of oxygen, all of you misguided lefties on here are so effed in the head its beyond belief!

Wow, the leftists here have really gone daft recently. You want to know why the right can't let this shooting become a conversation on political discourse? Maybe it's because the two have nothing to do with each other! Why not let it become a discourse on immigration laws? Because that would degrade the severity of the tragedy and ignore the real problems, solvable problems, that could help prevent things like this from happening again. And MSNBC is now blaming the right for pointing out that this wasn't a political assassination, that it was one psycho who was apparently angry at someone for using special mind-control powers? Geeze, this guy was as likely to be set of by the kind of cereal she ate as by the political rhetoric surrounding her.

The right tried to defend their symbolism by pointing out that the left was just the same, and that this was just political discourse. Remember the pictures of Bush in crosshairs? Remember the books about assassinating him? Remember Palin hung in effigy? And you think using sights on a campaign strategy map is bad taste (which the left did before Palin did)? Ok, 'second amendment remedies' was too far, I'll agree with that. Sharon Angle lost for good reason.

You want to know why the Right is outraged? It's because so many in the Left (not all, and not most politicians, but a few politicians even) are trying to blame the Right for the actions of a leftist nutjob (where nutjob is a much more significant factor than leftist, the leftist bit is just a bit of irony).

It was people on the Left (again, not most, but many) who first started distracting us from the tragedy. The Right simply tried to defend themselves and point out the Left's hypocrisy.

Oh, and by the way, this kind of political atmosphere goes all the way back to the Founding Fathers: people hung in effigy/burnt in effigy, newspaper articles calling people traitors and enemies of our country, etc. It may be disagreeable, but it's nothing new for either side.

Not to mention that the "they bring a knife, we bring a gun" spoken by President Obama was taken from "The Untouchables" when Malone was educating Elliot Ness on how he will win the battle against gansters: "They pull a knife, you pull a gun; he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue...and that's how you get Capone!"

Stop playing tit-for-tat; put away the childish games and act like adults. Wrong is wrong regardless from which side it comes. No one wants to be held accountable. Words have consequences and once spoken cannot be retracted so easily. The damage is already done.

The responsible thing to do is to acknowledge that the vitriol in our politics can affect unhinged people, de-humanize others and lead to the type of terrorist attack that stole the life of a 9 year old innocent girl and five others.

I'm sorry but political rhetoric wasn't responsible for this tragedy. A deranged individual who got their hands on a gun was. It has been reported that this individual had pretty much been stalking Rep. Giffords since 2007 and has a history of making death threats. The sudden escalation of political nastiness didn't cause this. Otherwise we'd see a lot more of this by now and earlier.

The problem is that people on both sides will see what they want to see. Unfortunately the "Right" is on the defense because the "Left" put them there.

Sarah Palin wasn't responsible for this so she has no need to come out and say anything more than what she has. Especially given all the attacks she's been getting. And who is to say she is a Presidential candidate? No one (other than MSM) so far including her!

And why is it when the "Left" calls for a stop to the rhetoric and vitriol it is only directed towards Republicans, Tea Party Supporters, Independents, Democrats who disagree with their position, people stating facts, etc.? Why isn't any of this directed towards individuals like Sheriff Dupnik who is now blaming Limbaugh because it has been determined that the shooter is a Liberal (yet he apparently knew of this guy's history!). Or the Hollyweird coming out blaming all conservative talk show hosts and Palin? No one is telling Hollyweird, Democratic politicians, political cartoonists, Olberman or Mathews to scale their vitriol back.

The really sad thing is if this shooting didn't impact a noteable Democratic politician this wouldn't be as newsworthy and the flames would not be up so high. What is being lost is the innocent individuals who DIED and were wounded and the fact that a clearly disturbed individual went unnotice by family and friends and was allowed to spiral out of control to this point.

And all that is getting people's undies in a bunch is free speech of politicians (mostly conservative apparently), Sarah Palin, GOP [self-]defensiveness, and conservative talk show hosts. Priorities people....priorities.

The priorities should be how to address the millions of mentally unstable individuals in this nation who are essentially off the grid and have no one to keep them in check (family, friends, caregiver...) who are known to have violent thoughts and have made statements, and manage to get their hands on weapons. Also KNOWN unstable individuals who are left to their own with no real monitoring and the only thing to get them off the street is when they go on a killing spree.



The response to this tragedy is typical of the erosion of political discourse; regardless of party affiliation or point of view. Journalist, pundits, politicians and now bloggers have decided to focus on the opportunity to discuss there ideology in the wake of any high profile event. The reason is simple, everyone is watching, and their response will get the most attention. So many have become, not only lazy in their compiliation of opinion, but also their ability to provide context, providing limited insight and highly charged opinion. Each individual or group inventing a puzzle formation that easily leads to a basis for their point of view. We need journalist to perform like well journalist and investigators to be investigtors before we can accurately and factually present any form or causation or correlation and then have a discussion about what can be done to change the negative or positive impact of the issue.

Our political discourse needs to be about the serious issues we face and possilbe solutions we can control and manage. Far too many times the issues are lost in the rhetoric and communication is dominated by end games that have more to do with selfish outcomes than the crisis at hand. We deserve and must demand better. Nothing is accomplished when we argue but that does not mean we should limit debate. Constructive individuals can master both sides of a debate, at the same time, fully understanding each presenter based on the formulation of opinion derived from the extrapolation of facts. Its called thinking and sometimes when we allow ourselves think we may change our opinion of the resolution because we have listened to our presenter or maybe we don't.

As it stands now it has become more noise than thought and thus our politicians are more than willing to craft their response to these events in the most advantageous frame to suit their need to remain electable to their major stakeholders, which is normally not the majority of people they represent, but the people that have paid for their election.

We need Americans that will stand up for the principles of a great society. No political affiliation required just patriotic men and women that care more about the longevity and sustainability of our nation more than re-election, great sound-bites or segement on Bill Maher or Bill O'Rielly.

The real issue that should be discussed in my humble opinion:

1. Mental Health Awareness and Reasonable Citizen Action

2. Personal Security for Everyone not just Politicians

3. Gun Control that doesn't Limit Lawfull Ownership but Controls Unlawful Use

My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the families affected by this tragic and senseless shooting in Arizona.



Amen

If Fox did cut off the Sheriff, I'm glad. On one hand liberals are saying to tone it down then they complain when Fox tones it down. The sheriff is as democrat political hack. He had zero information to base his leftist screed on and considering the info that came out later he looks like a fool. All he succeeded in doing was fanning the very flames you claim to want put out.

Get a clue, nothing will change. Liberals will shamelessly try to exploit the tragedy to further their political agenda and conservatives will use the liberals efforts to further their political agenda. By attacking Rush, Palin, etc. you are adding fuel to the flames. In your selfish world of blame, you are making matters worse, not better. It is the height of elitism to attack while telling conservatives not to. You've already seen the response.

In the end, "Don't retreat, reload" will join the gun refernces in our vernacular like "Keep your powder dry", "On target", "Lock and load", "2nd amendment solution", etc. The "Don't tread on me" flag will not disappear just because the nut job had one on his wall.

No new gun laws will pass because the democrats know what happened to them last time they tried that. With the vast majority of the nation supporting the 2nd amendment, as adjudicated, they know it would be even worse this time around. The NRA will not go away.

Conservatives are claiming that this was an isolated case by a severely disturbed individual because that is exactly what it was. Your attempts to use it to silence conservatives and gain political points at their expense will backfire. The more you point fingers, the more ridiculous you look.

"Don't retreat, reload" was meant as rally cry against those who want to take away the 2nd ammedment. It was not meant as a violent suggestion. To place blame on an individual or group for the actions of another is the base of so many problems plagueing this country today. The shift of responsibility.

No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions and every person and/or group wants to place blame on their opposition to gain greater influence. This evil creature who committed this horrendous act is responsible, end of story. He had contact with Mrs. Gifford on previous occassions and was displeased with the answers to the questions he asked her. It was his finger that pulled the trigger and his own paranoid, phsychotic mind controlling that finger.

If you are going to blame anyone other than him for this, then you must also be willing to admit that the tv shows about crime, rap music and video games such as GTA are responsible for drug dealers, rapists, pimps and various other crimes committed by those who partake of these forms of entertainment. I have a son who loves Harry Potter, you don't see either one of us running around trying to cast spells with our magic wands.

Why, oh why do we have to regress into name calling ? Six year olds have learned to be more mature than some of the posters I have read here. Words do matter, they have consequences. Take up the pledge, do not denigrate your fellow man by calling them something other than the moniker they have chosen. PLEASE, do you want to bury another nine year old little girl, your mother, your friend, your grandfather, your father, your son ?

While the 2000 election was divisive, then John Kerry was Swift-Boated, the vitriol really ratcheted up during the invasion of Iraq. Those of us who did not support the war were subjected to horrible Hate Speech, and not just from the extreme fringe, but from friends and family. I remember my sister yelling "How can you forget 9-11?!!"

Well we all know the Bush/Cheney terms ended in the Great Recession, and most know there was no connection between Iraq and 9-11, and the Iraq war wasn't worth the cost. One might think there would be a teachable moment about now. Progressives know better than to expect an apology.

Because the right-wing will never admit fault -- Certainly not the King of Hate Radio, Rush Limbaugh, and the King of Conspiracy Theory, Glenn Beck. The Teapublicans, like Sarah Palin just go silent until the masses have forgotten (which doesn't take long), and then they'll be right back at it too.

The "two wrongs make a right" fallacious argumentation is a favorite of conservatives. For example, you think Bush was bad, what about Clinton? You think Bush created a deficit, what about Obama? You think head stomping at a Tea Party protest is bad, what about…what? They know dang well there's no comparison.

Why do you think Jon Stewart and Stephen Cobert held their rally to Restore Sanity in October? The theme was to take it down a notch -- The problem with right-wing hysteria has been well known for some time. Really, people's (and the media's) memories are so short—that rally was only two and a half months ago.

What conservatives really want is to squash all opposing views, dissent, reality checks, etc. completely. They don't want to be held to their own calls for "excellence" and "accountability." The progressives could take the high road (as they usually do) and not point a finger. But they've learned that if they lay down, they will be nothing but a door mat. No can do.

Rhonda,

You seek to absolve far right agitators who drive their ratings and income higher and higher by pandering to the most base and venal members of our society by comparing their actions to singers and actors. These people position themselves as political experts voicing a truth Americans must heed. When a Limbaugh, Savage or Coulter state that if we killed all the liberals the world would be a better place and if challenged claim it to be their highbrow humor. When Sarah Palin uses crosshairs and bullseyes to identify opponents or Michelle Bachman tell Americans to rise up against ganster governments or that she will lead them into the halls of Congress until they can "see the whites of their eyes as in (don't fire until) or that unamericans in Congress need to be investigated. or tells her constituents they need to bearmed and dangerous. O'Reilly called repeatedly for violence against Dr Tiller including stating that he would strangle him to death if he ever got close enough to get his hands around his throat. Beck incites violence daily and Hannity has called for a Resistance Movement and since his earliest days associated with homophobic neo nazi listeners giving them a radio forum to spew their venom he also has complimented his teaparty audience playfully calling them his Tim McVeigh wannabes. There ar no liberal commentators or politicians making statements even remotely close to what comes from the Right on a daily basis.

JKH

It's amazing to me that people can't distinguish between "Rush is a jackhole and should stfu", "Obama is a communist and should be impeached", or "Palin is an idiot and I think she should move to Russia" and "Don't retreat - reload", "If ballots don't work, bullets will", or "the public will bring down an out-of control congress with second amendment remedies".

Am I the only one who thinks there is a vast difference between these two? Isn't there a difference between expressing hate and encouraging violence?

Reading about Tom Delay, I realize that unfortunately justice is not served. The entire last decade was nothing but Republicans scandals, whether Jack Abramoff and K-Street or Scooter Libby and outing Valerie Plame.

Then of course there are the Republican hypocrites like Vitter, Ensign and Sanford. Yet we have to listen to more drivel from Congressman Issa about how corrupt President Obama is. The fact is conservatives wouldn't know corruption or values if it bit them in the arse.

Why aren't Republicans like Issa under fire for their unfounded Hate Speech? Oh that’s right, FOX won’t speak ill of their own. Glenn Beck is too busy selling precious metals, and Limbaugh is too busy planning another Operation Chaos.

"In 2012, Obama and Dems will have to improve their performance with whites, or will have to pull of what they did in ‘08 (and what Michael Bennet did in ‘10): overperform with minorities, young voters, and women."

Hope springs eternal, but if only 3% of people that voted for Obama in the 2008 elections change their minds, Obama is going to join the 70 Democratic members of Congress that got sent home.

The key is the independents that make up about 40% of the voters, who voted for the "Hope & Change" rhetoric in 2008 by almost a 20% margin. As of now, Obama has lost his appeal with those Independents by about a 20% margin (a swing of an astounding 40%). Unless something dramatic changes with the economy, it doesn't look good for Obama, and perhaps he should step aside and let Hillary run, which would be a welcome "change".

Exactly, johnluci. There's a world of difference between a brash statement and claiming it might be necessary to take out the government by force.

Too many children have been left behind. Stop the anti-intellectualism movement and see what a wonderful difference it would make.

This action was carried out by a lone nut, all the new anti-American laws in the world cannot stop a determined nut. I'm sick of the left jumping on every tragedy and making it into a political issue to further their commie goals. By the way I'm not your comrade, so please don't address me as one. If government started caring about America more and less of china, russia, iran, etc. they might not have half the country up in arms. I for one am sick of being lied to, ripped off, and sold out by the same government that is supposed to be working for me. When you totally ignore the wishes of we the people like we are beneath you, when government workers are the highest paid work-force in the country and the rest of us can't beg a job or except minimum wage, then something is wrong. So stop the blame game to justify taking more of our freedoms away, and just look in the mirror. If you don't want to live in the land of the free then just get out.

Sorry, Mr. Emerson - your point is lame. Footstomping, threatening and calling for violence when you don't get what you want is for elementary schoolyards, not democracies. What YOU want may not be what the majority of US citizens wants. Get over it. Join a PAC. Call your congressman. Run for public office. Do what real Americans do - stop the blame game to justify taking more of our freedoms away, and look yourself in the mirror. I don't have to get out - just like you.

Roy Wilson,

Take the bag off your head and remove the ear plugs. This discussion is about the murdering psycho in Arizona. Go preach your useless crap somewhere else. What does your post have to do with anything on this thread?

Johnlucci-You rail against the "footstomping, threatening and calling for violence" saying it is for "elementary schoolyards" yet it is the left who call people racists, bigots, homophobes or any other manner of slurs when they simply don't agree with the multitude of socialist and "progressive" changes the left want to enforce on us. The "majority" of this country are moderate, neither far-right nor far-right, yet every "progressive" program the left wants in place is what the "majority" of Americans want, or so you claim. Every poll that shows otherwise, as far as you are concerned, is simply a small sampling of "Right wingers" even when the polls are conducted by independent studies.

I abhor violence, I saw too much of it during my time in the military. However, I do realize that sometimes it is a necessary evil. I do not condone violent threats, the "call to violence" by some members of the media or politicos. Neither do I blame them for this tragedy. It is time for all people in this country, right, left, independent, catholic, protestant, atheist, to be able to voice their opinions without having to incur violent threats, name calling and hate. The bipartisan system is encouraged to allow for different view points and opinions. However, that is no longer the case from either party and it is time both sides be allowed to voice those opinions.

I so enjoy reading these posts where names are named and blame is assigned as long as they are neither democarat nor left winger. So, to, witI offer the following to Beverly andher "follow comrades." Do with it as you wish....

"On Monday, Madison-area WTDY morning host John "Sly" Sylvester criticized Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor Rebecca Kleefisch's cold-calling attempts trying to woo businesses from Illinois to Wisconsin in the wake of the former state's financial woes. In response, Sylvester mockingly impersonated Kleefisch and said she was only elected after performing sexual acts. He then later referenced Kleefisch's bout with colon cancer and wondered if her hairstyle is a result of having to wear a wig."

QED

Here’s hoping the righties that hang around here have switched to ‘decaf’ this morning! For some reason they were remarkably more irritated than usual yesterday! lol

How’s this for ‘Fair & Balanced’?

Fox News Abruptly Cuts Feed From Giffords Vigil When Mourner Mentions Sarah Palin

Since Rep. Gabriel Giffords (D-AZ) and others were shot in Tucson, AZ this weekend, Sarah Palin has received renewed criticism for a map her PAC posted last year with gun cross-hairs over the districts of several Democrats who voted for health care reform — including Giffords’. Hours after the shooting, Fox News — which employs Palin — aired scenes from a vigil in Phoenix, but when one mourner appeared to began to call out Palin’s incendiary rhetoric, the Fox feed abruptly went to commercial.

"Everyday brings a new level of low from the Left." Ooops- don't want to leave anyone out here....

Good Morning US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

It has nothing to do with republican, democrat or independent per se. They all do it to some extent. It becomes an issue when it is used to promote hate and violence and then not taking responsibility or accountability for your actions. That is wrong no matter who does it.

That is so true, but Sarah is NOT toning down her rhectoic. She is hiding.

John Boehner acted like a responsible Republican adult and appealed for calm and restraint saying...

I know many Americans are angry over this health-care bill, and that Washington Democrats just aren’t listening. But, as I’ve said, violence and threats are unacceptable. That’s not the American way. We need to take that anger and channel it into positive change. Call your congressman, go out and register people to vote, go volunteer on a political campaign, make your voice heard — but let’s do it the right way.

Keith Olberman said he too would refrain from such language. Where oh where is Sarah? It would be to her benefit if she wants to be President.

Words have meaning; we all have to understand for our children to have a future... just a summary of what I saw yesterday

Left leaning individuals tried to persuade those on the right that words could have possible contributed to this senseless violence.

Right leaning individuals were simply in defense mode, saying that the fever political atmosphere had nothing to with it...

The bottom line is liberals need to understand that from all we've heard so far, the situation in AZ - Glenn Beck is most likely not a factor in this case. And Republicans need to finally agree that the fever pitch vitriol coming out from individuals in their camp will (if it hasn't yet) lead to bad circumstances. There's no way you can tell me as an adult that words like "Not Retreat, Reload", "2nd Amendment remedies" wont eventually lead to a bad outcome. It seems that those on the right do not want to accept it. This is what generated the 1200 post yesterday.. because no one wants to agree or simply agree to disagree.

We have to learn to live together and sing kumbaya or whateva, but we need to learn to live together again.

Disregard above. SOmething screwy going on with posts this morning.

Feisty- I think Palin needs to disappear from the airwaves. Because I think she meant for some one to acutally shoot someone else? Of course not. Not in a million years. I think she needs to disappear, simpley because she's dumber that two cat turds, and has not earned a place as high as she has in the public forum. Nothing more, nothing less.

she's dumber that two cat turds,

Why are you insulting cat turds? lol

Palin is WAAAYYY beyond her '15 minutes' expiration date that's for sure!

Let us be civil and not resort to the tactics that we oppose.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

Let us be civil and not resort to the tactics that we oppose.

Navy

This is one of the reasons I have the utmost respect for you and Ron and others. I can't recall you ever being scarcatist. However, my dear friend the derisive tone I and others use in no way called/calls for violence or government overthrow with bullets.

Sorry to disappoint you my friend I will continue to be the sneering person I am when I see fit.

Bev;

I have no problem with your posts. You say exactly what needs to be said and I respect that. I was referring more to the people that seem to have a need to start a dialogue with you moron, idiot, stupid etc. It was in no way directed to you. I am sorry if you thought it was and I apologize.

I happen to like a little snark and sometimes it is the only way to get through. Sometimes you do have to fight fire with fire. Again I apologize, was not directed at you or most others.

So this is what you call toning down the hateful rhetoric? Cat turds? I rest my case, you are hypocrites in the truest form....

watt;

You should go to FT yesterday and see some of the comments from the right. Cat turd is mild in comparison.

Joe: And I have called out my fellow democrat's when they cross over the line., unless they are responding to a uncivil poster. At that point it is between them. You just choose to ignore that. I did it when that plane crashed in AK and many said that Sarah Palin should have been on the plane. I called that remark repugnant. I do not flag people unless they are promoting violence. I feel they have every right to speak their mind.

If I call people names I expect to be called out and should be. Sometimes it is in the heat of the moment or in response to address an uncivil response. And when I have, I have apologized (most of the time) sometimes it is just tick for tat and nothing more, or the post was so vile I will not back off.

wow- hard to see why the left (except for me) doesn't see they are digging there own political grave with this whole shooting thing. For one, The Congresswoman is a self-admitted conservative. (blue-dog democratic), hanging around with a Bush federal judge. two: The suspected killer sought her out way before Palin ever became known to the public. Three: His reading list is blatantly leftist; of course there is the communist manifesto, but as any basic poly sci professor will tell you: Mein Kampf is too: that is why it is National Socialism...so far right it circles around to leftism.

Compliments of the Collapse Cowards:

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community

*** Playing the victim card when you’re not really the victim

Are you kidding me? The righties are PROFESSIONAL victims!

The stiking thing yesterday was, not a ONE of them showed anything resembling an ounce of responsibility!

Regardless of whether or not this massacre was politically motivated their REFUSAL to acknowledge that words have consequences says everything!

If anyone TRULY believes that conservative talk-radio influenced the Arizona shooter (who is in the left-wing camp anyway) to commit his horrendous crime, then we should ban violent movies, gangster rap, and sexually provocative TV shows/ads. We should enact all those bans to deter future bombers, cop killers, rapists, misogynists, perpetrators of domestic violence, madmen, etc.

Gee, if the comparatively tame speech of Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, O'Reilly, and Fox News is so dangerous that it motivates unstable nuts to commit heinous acts, we ought to take action against shoot-em-up "action movies" that showcase death and destruction, raunchy music lyrics that call cops "pigs" and women "whores" and "bitches," and TV shows/ads designed to appeal to prurient interests. But guess what? When such censorship is considered/debated, the same critics of conservative talk-radio howl their collective disapproval and cite the concept of "freedom of speech." A double-standard is the religion of the left-wing.

Boycott - Limbaugh, Palin, and Beck. In the late 60,s and early 70's they would be accused of inciting a riot!

Rock,

The writings of Ayn Rand, are definitely not liberal and speak stongly of conservative beliefs. The Alice in Wonderland was a allegorical story written against the government at a time that free speech was depressed.

Well said. Not that I don't agree with Chuck Todd's point in the article--but easier here even for him to miss the bigger picture. Why would you frankly look for civility from those quarters when there's been no evidence they'd be capable of it? More interesting to me is the reaction of the mainstream (grownup) portion of the Republican party, in office and out, which has been pleasingly sane. And still more telling to me will be the reaction of Independents who were willing to hold their nose in the mid-terms and vote Republican, despite the party embrace of extremists . Methinks they won't be quite so willing to do that again.

(There was speculation in the Wash Post this morning that even the Palin herself may be rethinking her speech moving forward, with the thought she might want to still be taken seriously as a Presidential contendor. I wouldn't go that far, but it was an interesting editorial piece.)

Too bad the mainstream media is owned by the "Left"....they never report the contant hatred spewed by the Progressive, liberal left. Remember, the truth of history past "proves" that it's these people, with their views who are really the violent haters. It's them who "round up" those of us who disagree with them. Facts are facts, history proves it.

This is what the liberals think about conservatives. Taken from the article:

Will they accept the reality of what’s happening to America, and take a stand against eliminationist rhetoric? Or will they try to dismiss the massacre as the mere act of a deranged individual, and go on as before?”

The only thing I can say about liberals is: They are deranged. The shooter was mentally imbalanced irregardless of what the left says. For some reason liberals cannot accept individual responsibility without trying to tag some sort of community involvement. The left will not own up to a person taking responsibility for their own actions. They HAVE to blame conservatives even though this person was NOT a conservative. Liberalism is a sickness that has invaded a persons mind causing thought patterns to eminate from another universe. I guess Marvel Comics was on the right track with Bizzaro World. They have liberals pegged.

Rock, I agree. I've totally lost respect for the "liberals" who in fact don't know the meaning of the word.

The hate speak ratio of left to right was at least 10 to 1. After this shameful behavior, they no longer have anything of value to listen to. The worst are those that should know better, like the columnists for the New York times. Had an opportunity to take the high road and they all acted like Liimbaugh at his worst.

BTW, the vast majority of Americans don't care what Palin says or does. Picking on her is like beating a dead horse.

I voted for Obama and a straight democratic ticket in 08. I supported and voted for Democrats running in 10. I now feel doing so in 2012 would be a mistake. (Not that I like Republicans, after Bush, that ship has sailed permanently). Might have to search and support independents only in 2012.

My own politics are very much like Giffords and was pleasantly surprised by all the things she supported (including motorcyclist rights, near and dear to my heart). If she is unable to continue her duties I fear the tea party may get another hate monger voted in. Because of their behavior in all this, I'm pretty sure the left has guaranteed that

I do not blame the right for the shooting, but I will say that they made an extremely bad decision in choosing their talking points. Everyone knows that political figures have a very wide reach, and their words are heard by both the sane and insane. It was, for lack of a better word, stupid to use gun/war/violence analogies when discussing politics. This is just common sense . . . at lease I thought it was common sense.

It's funny that all this talk about civil discussion was the exact same thing that John Stewart was promoting with his Rally to Restore Sanity. The point was that we can disagree, but still have an adult discussion about the topic and find some middle ground. The Health Care bill is the perfect example . . .

The discussion should be, "I know that we agree on some of the changes in the health care bill, like pre-existing conditions, but not others. So let us discuss the options for the parts we do not agree on, while keeping the good parts we all like. This will lead us to improving the bill into something that will benefit everyone." (See, everybody is calm and respectful)

Instead, the current discussion looks like this, "ARGGHH, the socialist liberal scum pushed an evil health care reform that will destroy America and usher in the arrival of the anti-Christ. Get rid of this monstrosity before the lord of darkness consumes our country and kills our children. Liberals are socialists . . . Conservatives are nazis. Liberals will take away your freedoms and you will become slaves to a government that will take all your money. Conservatives will take your freedoms and force you to follow their religion or be punished by their old testament Christian/Sharia Law. Liberals eat babies. Conservatives eat puppies. ARGGHH"

Very good point Joe. It is the left that always trys to stifle free speech. They want to shut down Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity and other conservative speakers. What it boils down to is "why?" Liberals fear free speech because they can't win when the truth of what they are all about is exposed. They mask their intent with lies and false realities. They falsely blame those of ideological difference with the things they themselves are guilty of.

Liberals - you are being exposed for who you are. Why you want total government control and our free speech taken away is a total mystery. I guess you just don't have enough intelligence to realize that when free speech is taken away, it's taken away from YOU too.

No Mr. Glen Beck, Sara Palin is not dangerous in my opinion. She is simply a stupid woman and THAT is what is dangerous. That is why she destroyed John McCain's chance at the presidency. I don't care if the next president is a woman and or a republican; she or he must be an inteligent and articulate person. Sara Palin is neither.

I'm truly shocked that Navy boy is not on the "Feisty" bandwagon this morning. He does show somewhat of a conscience. However, the other left pigs can't help but blame the right because it's what they do best - point the finger. You really believe that Sarah Palin had everything to do with this? I guess if this is the best you can do, you are as pathetic as thought to be.

Tell me, why didn't your beloved President, with all his government-funded health programs catch this guy? How did this murderer "get through the system"? I'm sure Palin was doing some mind telepathy. Reminds me of Ricardo Montalbon in Naken Gun sending his telepathy - "I must kill the Queen, I must kill the Queen." Please, take a good look in the mirror and see what stupid looks like.

No Sarah Palin is not dangerous but, putting crosshairs and gun sites on people/districts cannot help but inflame individuals who are not stable. This is not about Republicans/Democrats. It's about being responsible Americans. And, I have to laugh at Christians who are insulted by calls for civility.

Brianb -

It is the left that always trys to stifle free speech. They want to shut down Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity and other conservative speakers.

I am going to have to disagree with you here . . . as a liberal, I am in favor of free speech even more than any conservative I have met. You also discussed "personal responsibility" before, and again, I am in favor of MORE personal responsibility than YOU are.

For example: I am in favor of removing the FCC (smaller government) and all censorship on TV and radio (free speech). I think people should take "personal responsibility" for what they watch. If you don't like the language or nudity, take personal responsibility and change the channel. If you don't want your kids seeing it, take personal responsibility and do not let them watch it. If you do not want the responsibility to monitor your children, take personal responsibility and DO NOT have kids.

Look at that . . . free speech and personal responsibility that YOU and every other conservative hate. Want more? Ok.

Another example: Legalize drugs and tax them . . . make people personally responsible for what they ingest. If they want to take drugs, overdose and die, they made that decision. Again, this is personal responsibility that conservatives hate to discuss because they do not want to be responsible for the outcome.

As you can see, I can easily take a concept like free speech and personal responsibility, and show you how conservatives (like YOU) are completely against it.

Sometimes you do have to fight fire with fire.

Better be careful US Navy Disabled, or some will accuse you of inciting setting things on fire. Palin's comment (Not Retreat, reload) is no more a call to using guns as your METAPHOR of fighting fire with fire is an incitement to set things on fire.

Being a huge history fan if you think what is coming out of the radio and TV from either the left or right is vitriolic than take some time and go to the library or do a search on the Internet regarding some of the language used in past elections and other political arenas here in this country. It did not foment violient action and yet was in many case considerably more nasty than anything Oberman, Rush or Palin has ever said.

look too at the tabloids in the U.K. once again if you think our so-called shock jocks and political satirists are too much, check those out. What this disturbed kid did was an aberation and regardless of what some are trying to say had nothing to do with what Palin, Malkin, Obermann, or anyone else said.

Be very careful folks of what you wish for, when we start going down the road of "speech crime" where a metaphor might be considered illegal than we will no longer have any of our freedoms. The day speech becomes so censored is the day we will lose our liberty.

I ask you all to re-read the article which these posts are attached to. Anyone who reads this with an open mind will see that it is most definitely slanted to the left, or at the very least anti-conservative. The one comment that really pointed this out to me was the suggestion that calling a politician a socialist should be considered too negative a comment. Sorry folks but the liberals in both partys for years now have been promoting socialism in this country and if it becomes "unacceptable speech" to call it what it is than we have fallen prey to the lefts rhetoric.

I have been seeing similar discourse over the years and attempts to get conservatives from pointing at someone and calling them liberal, of course that was after most people in the country saw what the liberals of the 60's and 70's did to this country - remember the "War of Poverty" - does anyone think there is less poverty now? Those SOCIALIST programs worked really well didn't they. Oh ya and by the way, it was okay when the left were totally in control in those days to call even someone mildly conservative a Nazi. I didn't hear any talk about toning down the vitriol back then.

I am reminded of two sayings as I finish this post.

1. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.

2. The best job that Satan has done has been to pursuade everyone that he does not exist.

Peace

I doubt if the Arizona shooter ever listened to Limbaugh or , Hannity radio shows are watched Beck and O'Reilly on Fox News.

Fiesty...I swear I remember that stupid "crosshairs map" you lefties are so obsessed about was used in '94 and '96 campaigns by the Democrats as targets against the Republicans and their districts. Get over yourselves already.

Will ALL of you just knock it off about Palin. She is NEVER going to get the nomination of ANYONE! Her numbers among independants, which IS THE LARGEST block of voters in this country, is so low it's in single digits. Therefore she couldn't be elected dog catcher. Yes, she can sell books, and people pay to see her, so what. She WILL NEVER BE THE NOMINEE of ANY party, and dreaming so will not make it so.

Enough of this mindless junk. I'm sick and tired of hearing about this intellectual nothing! Stop bringing her up, everyday, all day! She's the "leader" of NOTHING, she was a 2 year Governor of a state with a population of a small metro, and she quit halfway through her term to make money, end of story.

Using battle field or war time terminology when describing everything from football to politics is one thing but when the appeal to action from the Right is for the electorate to load their guns and take back their Country it is another thing entirely. Describing a close election in a "battlefield state" is a just a tried and true metaphor - on the other hand telling voters if and when they don't get their way that they have the default/option of 2nd Amendment remedies is not an implied threat but one that is obvert!

A decided difference in putting targets on real people and pointing at inanimate objects..like bills- opinions and political ideas! Who does what -- The video makes it clear..This article gives cover for the right with false equivalencies-- It is not the same at all!

There is a legal precedent to inciting violence and murder --even when not there ---Charles Mason comes to mind...

The GOP/wingnuts are looking for cover when there is none! Nationally, this is not going to go away..Too much out there on video..

If I were President - I would let this run..and concentrate on the loss and ignore the shrill right wing -gop attempts to cover!

Would like to hear the President say in Arizona'==" I am here to honor the fallen, those fighting for life and the bravery of the citizens that saved lives...any guilt or innocence is up to the Federal Courts!"

Micheal Moore asked an prescient question...If this were a Muslim person making such maps or spewing such hatred where would they be sitting today?

Yesterday afternoon I went to my small town gym....in Lockhart, TX. A Tea Party Republican was giving the Pontius Pilot hand washing of responsibility for the shooting in Arizona. I was sickened to hear the callous disregard for the consequences of hate speech. The man spouting this justification for hate speech had a t-shirt with two phrases on the back. One said "VOTE NOW" with a checked box. Underneath was "HUNT LATER" with a bizarre symbol.

The Tea Party and Sarah Palin as a designated leader needs to speak about not using gun violence to solve problems. It's obvious the party has a snicker and flippant smile...as the shooter...when it comes to dealing with the extreme elements of this right wing dangerous group.

Beverly in Chicago,

Anyone from Chicago shouldn't be able to post. How are those gun laws working out for you? Congratz on being the crime capital of the US. Geesh you guys can't vote right to save your life.

As for the topic, I think enough is enough. Crazy people are not specific to one political party or the other.

For those of you who are making this into a reason to hate, I think it is very underhanded and pathetic. If this is how you want the rest of the world to see you, then so be it.

Also, using guns, sniper scopes, targets, crosshairs ect as a political ideology isn't exclusive to the 'right'. The DNC used sniper crosshairs BEFORE Palin did and the President used the term "if they bring a knife to this fight, we will bring guns". I don't see you lefties whining about what he said, or did you forget? We call this selective memory and it is rampant in your party.

Enough is enough...

I could not have said it better myself, those who engaged in hate speech are complicit in the atmosphere they created and lit the fuse for something like this to happen.

I am certaily glad all our sensitive, oh so correct, liberal friends have ceased the incendiary language

I find it amazing you do not see yourselves in the mirror. You don't think Olbermann or Maddow enflame conservatives? What about Chris Matthews talking about what a wonderful thing the death of VP Cheney would be? Onthe air! o'bama's comments that the GOP is your enemy? Cindy Sheehan on Bush? All ok with the libs, right? There's more, but I know its useless...Until you lose the santimony and the faux elite intellectuality, you are no better than those you chastise. But that's just my opinion...

Let's remember, a liberal doesn't mind of you have an opinion, as long as it its the same as theirs.

And Thoughts from Cali...was it not Rockefeller that wanted to shut down Fox News (in a recent speech)? He's a rather liberal democrat, is he not? Forgot about that, huh?

The tone of political discourse in this country will improve only when both sides are willing to step up and say "You know, my side sometimes goes too far." Currently, it seems that no one is willing to actually do that. These days, the "politics as war" mentality leads people on both sides to instantly and mindlessly defend their own side against any suggestion that they may have done wrong. As long as we hold on to that mindset, nothing is going to improve. We must be willing to step up and say "you know, I'm a fan of that radio personality but he was irresponsible when he said that" or "I voted for him and I support him but that comment he made was childish and insulting".

The next step is to acknowledge that people on the "other side" are patriotic Americans that sincerely want what is best for our country. As a liberal, I have no doubt at all that conservatives are good, patriotic Americans that want our country to be the best it can be. I hope that those on the right are willing to say the same about me.

The left wrote the book on propaganda, vitriol and insults Remember these little gems:

Obama:“They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”

Obama to His Followers:“Get in Their Faces!”

Obama to lib supporters:“It’s time to Fight for it.”

Obama to Latino supporters:“Punish your enemies.”

Obama on the private sector:“We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“

Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

Obama to democrats:“I’m itching for a fight.”

Obama on ACORN Mobs:“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

Obama to His Mercenary Army:“Hit Back Twice As Hard”

OHHHH YES! Leftists mastered the art of propaganda and deception. They control the bulk of media outlets (except Fox, and they HATE that) and so can spread all the hate and venom they like, then turn right around and perpetuate public debate on how the right is spreading hate. Amazing.

What's more, if you had any doubt about who the REAL ANTI-AMERICAN agents among us are, look at the Communist Party USA's web-site, their policy platform is EXACTLY the same as the Democrat party's platform, even the same criticisms of America. Look it up yourself at CPUSA.org.

I guess it would take a group that is King of politicizing to know when another group is using a tragedy to be political. Your children are watching you.

Hypocrits. Who owns NBC?

WOULD THE MEDIA PLEASE STOP THE RHETORIC. There is other news out there like oh maybe a war? Our news just plain sucks. I find myself having to watch Al Jazera to get an idea of what is going on in the world. You all are so freakin fake its sickening.

Journalist are so frantic trying to sell a story you never get the real story out. Everyone just shut your TV's off.

By the way, to the leftists that were trying to frame the shooter as a "white supremacist, or "anti-semite", you may be interested to know that this maniac is a JEW. His mother is a jew, and according to a friend, they may have even belonged to the same congregation of the same synagog as Gabrielle Giffords. You will find this info if you bother to Google it, but the leftist main stream media will not volunteer it. What a surprise.

I'm readily convinced that no one specific commentator, website or posting drove this guy to the mayhem he committed in AZ, but if you are deloused with it every day. If you are swimming in hate, vitriol and allusions to violence all day everyday it is going to impact you. It impacts all of us.

Hyperbolic language and gun metaphors may not be the causal link that sent this guy over the edge, but you can count on the fact that it helped nudge him in that direction.

The really sad part is, as long as that kind of language is what gets the ratings, that is the kind of language that is going to be fostered by the opinion based commentary shows. These guys make millions by feeding raw meat to an audience base they keep whipped up. They don't care about the state of the country, just the state of their bank account.

In short, Why would we expect them to dial down the rhetoric when we are paying them to be divisive.

Machinehead,

Please use the quotes in context......

** Obama: "They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun""If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun," Obama told the audience. "Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I've seen Eagles fans.

** Obama to His Followers: "Get in Their Faces!""I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: "I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I'm angry!".......I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry. I'm angry," Mr. Obama said, his voice reaching a peak seven days after learning of the bonuses given to employees of the American International Group. "What I want to do, though, is channel our anger in a constructive way."

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: "Hit Back Twice As Hard".....And they screened TV ads and reviewed the various campaigns by critics of the Democratic plan. If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard, Messina(not Obama) said, according to an official who attended the meeting.

** Obama on the private sector: "We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick."....NBC's Matt Lauer asked Obama about the criticism that he should spend more time in the Gulf instead of with experts and "kick some butt."...Obama told NBC his deliberations have been more than academic......."I don't sit around talking to experts because this is a college seminar," Obama continued. "We talk to these folks because they potentially have the best answers, so I know whose ass to kick."

Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean "hand to hand combat"...........A Republican majority in Congress would mean "hand-to-hand combat" on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy, President Obama warned Wednesday…"They are fired up. They are mobilized. They see an opportunity to take back the House, maybe take back the Senate," he said. "If they're successful in doing that, they've already said they're going to go back to the same policies that were in place during the Bush administration. That means that we are going to have just hand-to-hand combat up here on Capitol Hill."

Obama to lib supporters: "It's time to Fight for it." ...."When it comes to taking a punch, I don't know whether you're Muhammad Ali or Floyd Patterson," Axelrod wrote to Obama in a November 2006 memo reported in a new book that reprises the campaign by Washington Post political reporter Dan Balz and former Post writer Haynes Johnson. Now Obama supporters are wondering about their man. If they're to see what he's made of, Obama has to first get in the ring. Forget the niceties, it's time to fight.

Obama to Latino supporters: "Punish your enemies.".."If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, 'We're gonna punish our enemies and we're gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,' if they don't see that kind of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it's gonna be harder and that's why I think it's so important that people focus on voting on November 2."

** Obama to democrats: "I'm itching for a fight."As fellow Democrats accuse him of caving in to Republicans on the tax cut deal, President Obama is repeatedly promising them that he will fight the GOP aggressively when it takes over the U.S. House and adds senators next month. "I will be happy to see the Republicans test whether or not I'm itching for a fight on a whole range of issues," Obama said last week. "I suspect they will find I am. And I think the American people will be on my side on a whole bunch of these fights.

I am willing to play again, anytime!!!!!!!!!

OHHHH YES! Leftists mastered the art of propaganda and deception. You are keeping up quite will.

Sarah Palin is no dummy. She knows when you have nothing intelligent to say about the subject matter you keep your lips zipped!

Remember when whacky liberals were thought to be the ones out of touch with reality? Now it's the right shoe that's being shoved down the mouth of humanity!

The shooter was mentally imbalanced irregardless of what the left says. For some reason liberals cannot accept individual responsibility without trying to tag some sort of community involvement. The left will not own up to a person taking responsibility for their own actions.

Brianb, leave it to the left to make the shooter the victim.

On the contrary, the shooter is fully responsible for his actions.

I'd simply like those who foment violence with lines like "hopefully we can handle this with the ballot box so we don't have to handle it with the bullet box" and "second amendment remedies" to be as responsible for their actions as Loughner will be held by the courts.

Language has consequences.

Navy, as you attempt to tone down the toxic statements on this site, perhaps you should also look into the mirror at some of the comments you made yesterday. several comments were rather blunt and to the point, after first beginning the discussion with the need to refrain from such comments.

I admit that I am also guilty for several comments, and like your two attack twins, I will attempt to refrain until attacked by the non-dynamic duo.

But let's be realistic navy, until the lPresident, legislators from both parties, and the liberal media begin to have polite discourse about the issues relative to moving the country forward, we will not see civility in the country. Many don't trust government, don't want big gov; are amazed at how truth is spun by the opposition and the media; and have just had enough with the elitist policies of the career politicians from both parties. This past election was vindication of the statement. Now, you lefties call many of us teabaggers - and for that I thank you.

Teabaggers are a mix of Americans who have value beliefs that differ from the administration, from middle of the road Dems, and without question from the far-liberal left. There is no formal group in charge, and no, Bauchmann is not the leader of the group. It is not a formal political party and no one really wants one to exist. But it is a trreat to the libbies, just as FOX is a threat in ratings to the MSNBC, CNN networks.

Unfortunately, I would like to see a return to honest politics where legislators work toward the betterment of the people they represent. But in politics, from time immortal, has this ever happened? Personal power, party power and staying in power at any expense has been the mantra of the professional politician forever. Limiting terms to 12 years total without another run for time served may correct this, and change politics to the discourse everyone would like to see; however, I can't see such a bill entered into legislation by the professionals who make their living telling us how great they are for leading us.

REPOST - Courtesy of the Collapse Cowards:

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community

Here’s hoping the righties that hang around here have switched to ‘decaf’ this morning! For some reason they were remarkably more irritated than usual yesterday! lol

How’s this for ‘Fair & Balanced’?

Fox News Abruptly Cuts Feed From Giffords Vigil When Mourner Mentions Sarah Palin

Since Rep. Gabriel Giffords (D-AZ) and others were shot in Tucson, AZ this weekend, Sarah Palin has received renewed criticism for a map her PAC posted last year with gun cross-hairs over the districts of several Democrats who voted for health care reform — including Giffords’. Hours after the shooting, Fox News — which employs Palin — aired scenes from a vigil in Phoenix, but when one mourner appeared to began to call out Palin’s incendiary rhetoric, the Fox feed abruptly went to commercial.

Fletch...I wouldnt be talking about "context." If you want the right to keep Obama's and the Democrat's words in context (which they have been, until the left started accusing the right of inciting violence with their words obviously taken out of context), I suggest the left do the same to the right's. Or doesn't it work that way?

NotGoingAnywhere...Would I feel the same way? Yes, I did feel the same way when it was actually done by the Democrats in the '94 and '96 campaigns. The crosshairs stuff was on those "targetted" Republican districts then. Geez, do some research.

Why dont you go back and find all those "kick ass" comments by Obama and all the violent rhetoric he used when descibing the "enemy", the Republicans. We all understood those were metaphors and not to be taken out of context. Man, selective memory is a prominent trait in liberals these days.

I am surprised none of you right wingers seem to remember the fictional documentary film where they assassinated Bush--and all the post viewing wishful commentary...can u imagine if someone did an Obama film like that?? I am a liberal, but in the Jeffersonian, Madison, Franklin, and Adams sense...and no politician, right or left, is anything but a lapdog for their own financial masters...

Yes, it sure is a lost cause at this point. But we have to have hope and faith that this isn't the future we are leaving our children. A future with no civility and ever increasing violence and back-stabbing; a place where our politics defines who we are. It will be sad... but I CLING TO MY HOPE AND CHANGE, that this will not be the my future America.

JoAnne---I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers as you heal and hope you will return here---we need your voice and respect your opinions.

Of all the vitriol I read yesterday, what was particularly troubling to me was the finger pointing---"well, you started it", as if we were on a playground. It doesn't matter who started it, why can't it end?

JoAnne:

I look forward to your speedy return. You are a gentle spirit and we need more than ever the kindness you have to offer. Take care my friend, I will sorely miss you.

JoAnne, you will be missed every day. I hope to see you back here at some point in the future.

So sorry for all your loss JoAnne.

Thanks for all the great thought you have shared in the past.

Be well and check on us all when you can.

Oy.

Joanne, PA;

Please take some time off and recoup. I will miss your inspiration and guidance and hope you will come back when the time is right for you. Be safe and take care my friend.

JoAnne: You will be sorely missed. Thoughts and prayers to you, and many thanks for your reasonable, educational and civil posts.

JoAnne: I wish I could find the right words to express my sorrow at what you have been going through. It is all so so sad I know. I just lost my brother since the holidays.

You are going through such a tough time. Please always know that you are in all our thoughts.

Take care of yourself JoAnne - you're voice of reason will be missed! ;o)

Sadly, JoAnne, that's the tragedy of our politicized country - good people dropping out of public debate. Don't let the blowhards win! Stand up for reason, moderation, and civility. Don't forget the thousands of people who turned out for Jon Stewart's rally for a return to sanity. You are not alone.

JoAnne,

Take all the time you need to heal. You input has been greatly inspirational and you will be missed.

Please check in when you feel better.

Good-bye for now.

Godspeed, JoAnne. May you find the peace and comfort you so sorely need right now.

Good bye, JoAnne. Take care and my best wishes for your happiness are yours. Beautiful final note there in your post. Love the bumper sticker quote. ;-)

I know we've had differences of op ions and philosophies in the past, but Ican't help agreeing with you on this post. I also feel for your personal sorrows and wish you well. Please don't discontinue your posting. Whether I or anyone else always agrees with you is not important. Your thoughts and impute are. Please stick around, I'd miss you.

JoAnne, you've had one heck of a tough year, and yet through your troubles you often came here to contribute to the conversation. Thank you so much - and thank you, too, for your excellent post.

In a long career that included professional political campaign consulting beginning in 1966, I have seen the rhetoric of hate, anger, and fear rise in strength. Much of it has been intentionally fueled by the advice of campaign consultants, who for decades practiced the credo of destroy and discourage. It was a basic strategy intended to win elections, and here's how it works:

For a long time, both major parties have been able to count on about 30-35% "base" voter commitment. That left between 30-40% "swing" voters, who of course then separated into a number of segments motivated by disparate appeals - to patriotism, religion, gun rights, disgust with government, individual local matters, many things. Political scientists in the 1960's came to recognize that especially nasty campaigns tended to not so much hurt the opposition as to discourage the unreliable "swing" voters from going to the polls at all. Unfortunately, this same effect also took place within a portion of a party's "base" voters.

So the strategy became one in which each party sought to "activate" their base voters at the same time employing tactics deliberately aimed at depressing "swing" voter turnout.

In practice, this method meant more and more vicious attack advertising, outrageous falsehoods dropped into the discourse at the last minute, and progressive hardening of attitudes among "conservatives" and "liberals" and others. And the campaign of 2010 was probably the most extreme example of this in the past 40 years.

As a result, public disaffection with government - and most other civil institutions, including the news media - has become widespread. Trust in government, at any level, has also been badly damaged by so many terrible scandals, from the time of the Vietnam War, through Watergate, the Iran-Contra scandal, overblown response to Bill Clinton's shameful behavior with a White House aide, and then the cascade of business and government scandals throughout the last decade.

Now the world sits enmired in economic distress that may be traced back to bad behavior in business, excessive individual debt encouraged by the President of the United States (Bush, in this case), inadequate or simply intentionally lax oversight, and much more - ruining millions of families' lives, costing countless jobs worldwide, disrupting societies across the globe - and people in leadership positions of all kinds think they can ask the ordinary person to be trusting and positive?

An enveloping miasma of uncertainty, resentment, and anger lies over American society today. And it has already produced the kinds of reactions seen over the past two years, culminating in the vicious campaigns of 2010. A person such as Jared Lee Loughner, already tortured by his own demons, spends years becoming more and more alienated from his family, friends, society and nation, and in the climate of hateful speech about all of those things absorbs a conviction that government and those within it are malign.

And, unfortunately, Loughner gets a gun.

American society, also targeted for decades by callous political consultants who want to win at all costs, seems far less commited to a national identity. People have acted more and more over past decades on behalf only of themselves and certain narrow subjects that matter to them, and see their greater society of an amorphous "enemy." Campaign strategies have only encouraged this disaffection - even as America needs more than ever to come together as a society, commit to addressing huge problems as a nation rather than a collection of neighborhoods, states or regions, and recognize a vision for the land that spans more than a few weeks or months.

Political vitriol has been building in the nation's spirit for a long time. Perhaps from this horrid tragedy will come at least some good, some sort of "transfusion" or "antidote" to that poison, and a reawakening of the principles of decency, community and common interest that will make the country whole once more.

Terrific post, JoAnne PA. I agree, the beginning of yesterday's debate was civil and thoughtful but immediately the verbal assault began. One name calling poster can reduce a good discussion to a shouting match in the time it takes to click "post comment".

Pat---sorry to hear about your brother---my sympathies to you.

The real subject here should be Longher's victims and their very sad families and his totally devastated parents who didn't see this coming.

Instead we see a treatise on which side of the political spectrum is at fault, totally inappropriate and very immature to say the least. The emotion behind this type of dialog is what's really wrong with our society.

John A, fantastic writing as always. You've cut to the heart of the issue.

It isn't anything intrinsic to Conservatives or Liberals as such, it's the way consultants have advised all parties to use (and misuse) their public stages.

Thanks, John B. I think it necessary to speak to the last line of your note.

It may not have been clear enough, but part of what I inteded to communicate was that as the years have passed, and political parties have become more strident and focused on their negative arguments aimed at their own base voters, the views of each side have deepend and hardened. It may now be somewhat "intrinsic" on opposite sides of the political specturm for almost-reflex statements to pour out, consequent to all those years of direction and reinforcement during campaigns.

Thus, to maltreat poor William Shakespeare, the major parties now are in the mode of the Capulets and Montagues - let their adherence meet on the street, and the swords are drawn.

It is not wrong to direct responsibility for this onto political campaign consultants and strategists - there is a reason Karl Rove is largely despised by the left, and that James Carville is a nasty word to the right. I made my own contributions, long ago, too. Bill Press, for example, will remember to his dying day the slogan of a campaign I led in California, while he was the principal spokesperson of the other side. That slogan by inference helped tear down public respect for government: "Let the bumblers do it? S-U-U-R-R-E we will!"

Regardless of a candidates political leaning, I want to see more political campaigns operating with a sense of moral responsibility. If we don't deal with the root causes of such violence, we will continue to see these kinds of ungodly acts. It is so easy for "the nuts" in our society to obtain a sense of purpose and legitimacy from the irresponsible ramblings of the "Limbaughs, Palins and Becks." They speak in abstracts about government, such that too many Americans viewed "government" as an "evil" because someone is getting paid millions of dollars to tell them that. This was a senseless act of pure hate.

JoAnne,

God bless you. I read more than comment and have enjoyed your posts. Please, don't stay away too long. I want to respect your right to take time to heal, because you need to, after having such a hand dealt to you. But I am selfish enough to say hurry back :-)

Take care, you will always be in my thoughts.

Pat.

I an sorry for your loss. Please accept my condolences.

http://www.binscorner.com/pages/d/death-threats-against-bush-at-protests-i.html

It would seem that Michelle Bachmann has achieved her objective. We are in fact armed and dangerous. I hope she's happy.

Nothing new to post so you paste the same thing you've pasted like 14 times yesterday?

Seriously, if you've got nothing to say, it's ok not to say anything.

And pointing out only one side's transgressions without mention of the other's equally inflammatory behavior makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Every one of us needs to take a step back and reflect on our own behavior as it is the only behavior we have any power over to effect change. Finger pointing and accusing others of bad behavior without considering your own actions will accomplish nothing. This seemed quite obvious after yesterday's rants. Yes, words have consequences but at some point blame also needs to fall on the only person truly responsible, in this case the shooter. It is ultimately him and him alone who is responsible for his actions. How many times as a kid were you asked the question "If your friends all told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it"? It is a matter of choosing right or wrong. Tragically he chose wrong but no one else pulled that trigger.

Language has consequences and our language today is as it has been for years, divisive. How is it that a country that was founded on one government has come to this?

By the People for the People---Gone

We the People in order to form a more perfect union.....Lost

We have created nothing more than a competition which uses words to make a point or trash an opponent. Elections aren't there for voting in the best candidates to run all the levels of government. It is strictly a contest for the elite. It is a game with a good paycheck and some great retirement benefits. It is all talk with no beneficial decisive actions. It is an embarrassment. Politicians get elected to office and worry about how they are going to win the next election instead of doing their jobs. Their job is to manage the country not run everyone's life.

Look at the overall picture and stop blaming another party because this was a complete group effort. The United States is where the world turned for innovation, protection and to restore stability. Now this country has been raped of everything it did best. Instead of being a leader in export we import almost everything. Now we don't restore stability we create instability. We do not learn from our mistakes we just repeat them on a grander scale. Look at the dot com blow up yet we created a housing bubble that made the dot com fail look like a minor bounced check. But when it comes to pop culture, sports and entertainment, nobody can hold a candle to us. WooHoo. Good to see our priorities are straight.

Crazy people do things for reasons sane people will never comprehend but yet we look for answers. The number one reason he did it is because he is crazy. Whether someone planted the seed makes no difference. He could have heard a thousand different statements that would have set him off. The good that you can find in this is people are looking a little closer and reading between the lines. He could have just as well got this idea from reading a blog and some of the senseless comments that are written. What is shocking is that this man wasn't a mystery. All the statements being made point to him as being unstable most of his life yet it would appear nothing was ever done to try to correct it.

We are all human beings and until we start treating everyone like equals this will continue. The elite run the country without having any idea what it is like to live like the middle and lower classes. It's hard to grasp the concept of living paycheck to paycheck when your check is in the thousands. On the other hand people that can't afford to, put themselves in debt all the time because they have to keep up with the Jones'. All the while the media and their advertisers push more and more crap in your face.

The language of this country is greed and as long as there is money to be made people will say things without the smallest thought of the consequence.

Family is no longer a priority. Safety is one of the first cuts being made in cities under financial crisis. We are allowing our children to take over and make the rules. When the government gets out of our houses and concerns themselves more with the infrastructure things can change. Please don't tell me I am not smart enough to know what is good for me and what is not. You don't have to ban fatty foods because I try to stay away from them. On the flip side, instead of putting limits on where I can smoke make cigarettes illegal. After all they do kill non-smokers too.

We will keep searching for the reason why something happens. We will blame Rush and Glenn because of the dumb statements that come out of their mouths. We will always blame the other party. We will always point a finger. It's amazing how much money a person can make running their mouth on the radio yet they don't help the cause. They aren't trying their best to make this a better country. When you are a Rush and worth billions how on earth can he relate to Obama or even Bush for that matter when they are making 400,000 a year? How can he relate to any politician and more importantly, how can he relate to you and I?

Language can make you incredibly wealthy but sadly it is our own fault because we support it. So the next time a rabid fan of (insert name) hears him/her say someone should be dead let's not be surprised if we are having this conversation all over again.

Sorry for being all over the place. It's hard to stay focused when the reasons are endless.

John, if not a single crazy had tried something stupid and tragic under Bush because, in his own deranged mind, the Right had driven him to it, then you'd have a point. Since there were radical, crazy, violent, and tragic individuals on the Left under Bush (and it looks like under Obama as well), yes, we can say these were isolated incidents and you can't predict crazy.

Realize, in a nation of 300+ million people, with the sad state of mental health today, isolated crazies do, or at least try, crazy, tragic things every day. You don't hear about most of them, because most of them aren't public mass-murders like this. Some fixate on politics. Some fixate on finances. Some on speeches. Some on jobs. Some on cereal boxes. This one was apparently on mind control.

Yes, language has consequences. This wasn't one of them. The man that did this was beyond the influence of language. Your attempts, and others, to lay blame at the feet of those you disagree with, however, does have a consequence. It has robbed us all of a chance to mourn, to understand, to come together, to heal, and to address the real problems that led to this: the sad state of mental health in American and the ridiculous state of gun laws in America. Thank you for sticking a rusty knife in the wound a tortured mind left.

Chef Daryl:

Seriously, if you've got nothing to say, it's ok not to say anything.

So what's your excuse for wasting time and bandwidth to say nothing? Since most of the media avoid talking about the sharp rise in rightwing violence since Obama's election, it bears repeating whenever right winger extremists start whining because someone says their violent rhetoric contributes to the general climate of violence.

Really Houston? Really?

You libbies are so good at cut and paste that you can't even paste my name correctly?

Maybe the media should report on how many more soldiers have died in Afghanistan since the president took office then in the years his predecessor held the office. That bears repeating.

Hi IR

Well let's see what we can do to ease your troubled mind here. Why don't we just start in Arizona so the list doesn't get unwieldy?

IT'S A SHAME these type of fears are being fueled by those whose only interest is money and power.

BTW If I were you I do believe I'd shy away from the country metaphors. Ain't much in life more disappointing than watching a Wannbee turn themselves into a Neverwas

LOL talk about delusions of grander.

IR;

On target as usual. Thank you.

More pearls of wisdom from IR, well done.

Joe

Where did I say that your Freedom of Speech should be abridged?

Constitution guarantees you and every other citizen of the United States that right and a bunch of folks over the years( including myself) have done their utmost to make sure you were able to continue exercise your right to sound off and make a dang fool of yourself anytime and everywhere you so desire.

What you’ll and the rest of the Yahoo’s like yourself don’t quite seem to grasp is that the Constitution does not guarantee you the respect that you think that you deserve for exercising that right in such a way.

You want your rights to be respected then why don’t you step back and learn to use them to pursue a worthy goal instead using them to tear down and denigrate the very principles that guarantee them to you.

Kind of overheated, aren't you Joe? No one said free speech should be restricted. We're saying that people who seek to be in the public eye ought to be sensible enough not to say things like "gather your armies" or "hopefully we can settle this with the ballot box so we don't have to settle this with the bullet box." We're saying that an environment in which Gabrielle Giffords' political opponent appeared in campaign literature in fatigques, holding a weapon, and encouraged potential supporters to shoot an M16 to "get on target...help remove Gabrielle Giffords for office" use language in a way that's unsuitable to a civilized nation.

We're saying that those who choose to ply that corner ought to be marginalized by the rest of society. They've earned it.

Language has consequences.

Occam’s Razor

The principle is often incorrectly summarized as "the simplest explanation is more likely the correct one". This summary is misleading, however, since the principle is actually focused on shifting the burden of proof in discussions. That is, the Razor is a principle that suggests we should tend towards simpler theories until we can trade some simplicity for increased explanatory power. Contrary to the popular summary, the simplest available theory is often a less accurate explanation (e.g. metaphysical Solipsism). Philosophers also add that the exact meaning of "simplest" can be nuanced in the first place.^[4]

So there you go Sport. Enablers-R- Us. The Taliban American Style. Word of advice unless you can channel Bat Sh!t Crazy and Apocalyptic Visions of the never ending struggle against the New World Order and Extreme Paranoia you may not fit in with these fine folks very well.

"Extreme paranoia about the New World Order" - So you're saying what, that it's not really the stated goal of the elites to destroy the sovereignty of individual nation states and form a totalitarian global government? You stupid fool! Google or look up on youtube speeches made by the members of the Bildergergs, Council on Foreign Relations, themselves about their goals. Look up folks like Henry Kissenger, Zbignieu Brizinski, the Rockefellers, George Bush Sr. and Jr., Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, their ties to international banker families - the Rothschilds, the Warburgs, and the Federal Reserve.

You know nothing about what's really happening. Unfortunately most people don't either.

Quick there Machinehead use one of those links up there and join up. Sounds like your just the kind of fellow that would be able to set around the fire with those old boys and do a fine job of bolstering that Paranoia when they run short on the medication when their out on Maneuvers. Why waste a talent like that on mere blogging. I'm sure there's a Militia somewhere just salivating over the opportunity to recruit someone with your prodigious talents.

Independent Redneck Va. You really are an ignorant fool.

You just keep your head in the sand and pretend that none of the NWO agenda is real. You and your descendents will make good obedient slaves some day. Cheers.

And of course the next thing the Left will be doing is to have their usual rant and hissy fit against guns.

That of course will be followed by a fundraiser.

You can't make this stuff up. Everyday brings a new level of low from the Left.

Tragedies are always a political event for the Left.

"So the saintly left...."

Thank you, Bill, for illustrating my point above...

Excellent post, Bill in Fairfax. I have many of the same questions. I can't wait to see what the left wingers on this site say in response. It should be interesting to watch them squirm.

Let's suppose you are correct, Bill, and there is no connection between the Az. tragedy and the current state of political rhetoric in our country. Why can't we all say----if there is no connection, we are grateful and let's make sure that it doesn't happen in the future because there is a risk of it. Let's tone down the rhetoric ON BOTH SIDES---avoid incendiary phrases and be as civil as possible.

Good morning Bill.

Regardless of what motivated the sick SOB who shot all those innocent folks in Arizona, this situation is shining a light on the simple fact that folks need to quit talking so much irresponsible crap all of the time.

Pointing out that other folks are irresponsible too is hollow comfort when someone decides to get all literal and start shooting folks in church pews, or military installations, or museums.

So enough with the "he hit me first" stuff . . . EVERYBODY needs to STOP IT.

Attacking them? No, we're just asking them to accept and admit that incendiary rhetoric leads to violent deeds.

That's not going to happen, though, will it?

Mike in Woodridge, IL

"Excellent post, Bill in Fairfax. I have many of the same questions. I can't wait to see what the left wingers on this site say in response. It should be interesting to watch them squirm."

SO, you are more interested in watching someone 'squirm', than watcing them 'respond'?

Nice sentiment. See how we get nowhere fast on here?

The Lefts fascination with Palin is perplexing. They never miss a chance to be critical of her, but they turn around and for some odd reason have all these expectations of her. Certainly there is a vacuum of leadership on a national scale from our current leaders, but Palin is a private citizen, an Conservative advocate, a rallying point for the Tea Party movement, and a wife/mother. Her only position on what is happening in Arizona is to express her sympathies, and she has done that. That's not good enough for the Left though, which apparently wants her with boots on the ground in Tucson. And of course if Palin does take on a more public role, she'll be soundly criticized by the Left again for doing just that. It is quite evident that the Left wants to continue to make this tragedy into a political event, an event where they take their shots once again at the people they hate. It just never ends.

"And of course the next thing the Left will be doing is to have their usual rant and hissy fit against guns."

Because this isn't the first mass killing we have seen in the United States, and because reports are that Mexican drug cartels are defeating law enforcement with guns purchased in the U.S. If you were smart, you'd be calling for action to stop the bloodshed, instead, you are handing this issue to the Left. Well, OK, the Left will lead in trying to solve this catastrophe, like it usually does. This is why I am a Democrat: Democrats lead.

".... but Palin is a private citizen,..."

Yes- but with a megaphone bigger than all of the rest of us combined. Private, my ass.

Amy B.Portland,ME: you'd be calling for action to stop the bloodshed

This is rich. So, do tell, how have the Democrats "led" with stopping this bloodshed? By suing the state of Arizona when they want to, horror of horrors, enforce the illegal immigration laws? By proposing an amnesty bill called The DREAM Act to fast track illegals into the country? By not enforcing illegal immigration laws in our so-called sanctuary cities?

Some leadership.

Words have meaning. But it helps even more if you can find someone to enforce the laws too.

No, JoAnna -- For this lefty, gun tragedies are always just that. Unlike you, apparently, I don't see them as a price that society has to pay so that society can feed its ever-growing bloodlust. Unlike the right, I don't see this as an occasion for arming everyone. I see this as yet more evidence that guns DO kill people, and that some of us don't seem to mind when a 9-year-old child becomes "collateral damage" to WHATEVER twisted message this particular shooter thought he was trying to send. Political crime or not, that girl would still be alive today if Loughner doesn't get access to that gun. How do YOU live with that?

The West wasn't won with a registered gun? Well, turns out, maybe the West was never won.

JoAnna,

Is this the type of enforcement you are referring to?

"Deportation of illegal immigrants increases under Obama administration

By Peter Slevin

Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, July 26, 2010

In a bid to remake the enforcement of federal immigration laws, the Obama administration is deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants and auditing hundreds of businesses that blithely hire undocumented workers.

The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency expects to deport about 400,000 people this fiscal year, nearly 10 percent above the Bush administration's 2008 total and 25 percent more than were deported in 2007. The pace of company audits has roughly quadrupled since President George W. Bush's final year in office.

This focus by the Left on this 9 year old girl is also perplexing. Why all of sudden the concern by the Left for this child? There is collateral damage done to children in our major cities every single day. These are the cities built and controlled by the leading Democrats of our time, and with the Liberal policies they implemented to control those cities, including making guns illegal to own. Having 500, 600, 700 people murdered each year in those cities with those illegal guns is not unusual, and sadly it is considered "normal". It's normal, because you don't hear about it much.

So where is the concern of this everday tragedy by the Left? There appears to be none. No on the Right controls those shooting galleries.

But now a child dies in Arizona, and suddenly the Left is oh so concerned about controlling access to guns. They think gun controls are the answer, but yet their very liberal cities where guns are illegal to own are nothing but killing factories. Seems the Left is a little late to the party, and a lot hypocritical on this issue.

So how do you Leftists sleep at night? Or is it the thought that counts for gun access control, and not the results?

Actually, I don't sleep well, and those who really know me know that I've always had the same concern for urban violence, as well as for other senseless violence. Don't be so quick to assume, JoAnna.

But I do notice that you have now officially called the little girl "collateral damage." That gives me a pretty good idea where your own values lie.

As for who controls the inner city shooting galleries, who do you think profits most from the sale of guns -- the left, or the right? Which side consistently argues in favor of their proliferation?

Shooting galleries wouldn't BE shooting galleries without any guns, JoAnna. That's MY point.

What's yours?

Bill.

Fabulous post! ...I am only hearing crickets from the usual posters....

JoAnna:

Your partisan diatribes are becoming shriller and more non-sensical.

Surely we can all agree that no one using a gun for a legitimate and legal purpose needs a semi-automatic weopon capable of shooting off 30 rounds at a time.

A little common sense goes a long way.

Anna Molly #6.12: I see this as yet more evidence that guns DO kill people, and that some of us don't seem to mind when a 9-year-old child becomes "collateral damage"

Anna Molly #6.15: But I do notice that you have now officially called the little girl "collateral damage." That gives me a pretty good idea where your own values lie.

Umm, I was relating my response to a level that you might have had a chance of understanding. Do you not even read what you write?

Anna Molly: Shooting galleries wouldn't BE shooting galleries without any guns

So make them illegal. Let us know how that works out for you. Please use Washington DC, Detroit, and Chicago as your examples of where guns are illegal and how wonderful things are going in those cities.

Anna Molly:

I agree. The spin from the select right is giving me a headache. They are using this as a political talking point as well, even some claiming that the shooter is a liberal democrat to try and use words again to solicit a desired emotion - The liberals did it? They always try to place themselves as the victim.

We do not know what political affiliation the shooter had, if any. We do not know what was going through his head. We do know he did not like Rep. Giffords position on the HCR, we do know he bought the gun days after the election. We do know he planned the shooting and we do know what little writings that have been made public that he had some leanings toward the right.

Only time is going to sort this out. The bigger problem as I see it, is the failure of people to acknowledge that the violence and hate in today's media, Internet, radio, TV, etc, etc, etc may have very well been a part of the tragedy. It makes little difference if political or otherwise at this point. There are unbalanced people running around out there and it does not take much to push one of them over the edge. We as a people have to stop providing a validation to their emotions by using hate and violence as a model for our dialogues.

Some are spinning that it was not political or their rhetoric had absolutely nothing to do with it. We do not know that, nor do they. We do not know what was in his mind and we most definitely cannot qualify it with any certainty at this point. We do know that the environment we are in today has more hate and violence than most can remember. How can that toxic environment not have an impact on some when they are exposed to it 24/7/365/?

Bill, Fairfax VA

The Arizona shooting was a tragedy that all Americans condemn. But the left is making this bad even situation worse by exploiting the tragedy using the pain of the Arizona victims to attack their political foes on the right.

I am willing to bet those family members are most appreciative. You don't really believe grieving family members would embrace hateful right wing rhetoric; now do you after what the right did?

How else can we explain the rush to judgment in this matter coming from the left? There is not a shred of evidence that the Arizona crime was motivated by political extremism (whether from the right or the left). But they connect the non-existent dots to arrive at their preferred conclusion because to the left, truth is self-evident and there is no need of proof.

Don't be ridiculous!!! The right-wing is so livid that their irrational, illogical, imbalanced act to have been exposed. So they go batt 30 years to point out violence from VietNam.

"Why all of sudden the concern by the Left for this child?"

Excuse me? Democrats have lead in the fight to reduce gun violence since President Clinton's administration. And the right-wing have fought them every step of the way. This child's death is the clear result of our society's ability to solve its problems. While we play politics, the sickest among us arm themselves with impunity and destroy young lives. I'm not going to play games with you, I ask the right wing to show they are willing to control sales of weapons of mass destruction in this country.

Excuse me? Democrats have lead in the fight to reduce gun violence since President Clinton's administration

But they haven't. That's the punch line to the "joke" Amy. The Democrats have led "feel good and politically correct legislation". That's it. The Left has made guns illegal in their cities, and those cities have become the Wild Wests of modern times. What the Left has implemented has failed, miserably.

Navy - I agree. The spin from the select right is giving me a headache. They are using this as a political talking point as well, even some claiming that the shooter is a liberal democrat to try and use words again to solicit a desired emotion

"Some claiming that the shooter is a liberal. . . " Some?" Can you name that "some"? The vast majority of the Left is blaming the rhetoric from the Right on the shooting. If you're seeing the Right doing the same, please provide some proof of that behavior. What the Right is doing is saying lets wait and see what the story is with this guy. Up until now, it doesn't appear he was influenced in any way by any political rhetoric. It is the Left that has leaped to this conclusion and pounded the drum to get that message out.

So please, be ever so careful when you're attempting to smear people you disagree with.

I had a comment for you Navy, but this darn system doesn't seem to be accepting it. Suffice it to say it was similar to JoannaSmith

@ JoAnna ~ Yes, I see where the collateral damage reference came from and I apologize. But does it occur to you that you're taking the position that we should tolerate senseless killing because it's just too much trouble to stop it? This ain't exactly like prohibition, JoAnna. Hey, maybe we could take that tax cut extension for the wealthy, pull our troops out of Afghanistan, and set them to work where the REAL wars are being fought.

Maybe we could. If we weren't so weak. Weak-headed, anyway.

Who doesn't love a good, ol' fashioned pissing contest?

@Vet ~ A thousand votes for that. Thank you for saying it so well.

Nash;

How true. I am a gun owner and so is my wife. Guns, per se, are not the problem. I do not have any problem with responsible people owning fires arms for protection and/or hunting. That is about as American as American gets. I object to lax laws like in AZ. Who needs a clip with 30+ rounds? Who needs a automatic rifles for hunting?

Guns do have a place in society (unfortunately that is a fact). It is the some of people that have them thatscares the he!! out of me. This weekend is a case in point.

And yes, the democrats have been fighting for tougher gun laws and the republicans are on the opposite side of that argument.

Nobody needs an automatic rifle, 30 round clip, etc. Everybody who buys a gun needs to be screened, and that does include their mentality state as well. I would also make it mandatory that they complete a certified training course.

@Exodite ~ Always depends on who's playing. Some are much more fun to watch than others.

But they really should come with disclaimers not to try this at home. It's way too easy to ruin good carpet.

JoAnnaSmith1

Joanna, after yesterday i did not think you could go any lower, but today is a new day and a new low for you Joanna,

In chicago that guy would not have been able to buy that gun, since the high court threw out our gun laws, chicago has made it aviable for citizens to buy guns,

Now, i must let you know that in cook county this guy would not have been able to buy that gun and that double mag clip. with the new laws, there is a waiting process that would have prevented him from buying, Not the instant purchase as it is in AZ.

Joanna, you can talk that crap about liberal citys, but lets look at the mass shooting in the past 10 years, Not one has happened in a major metro area, the closest to Chicago was at northern univ in dekalb IL. 40 miles away 5 were killed. name me one other mass shooting that happened in a major metro area. I said mass shooting where a person empties his clip with the intent of killing who ever is there.

In the past you have made Fun of the inner citys problems with gun violence, well i will saythis, in Chicago never has a group of people including that little girl been shot down like Saturday, yes we have gun violence, gang bangers shooting at each other fighting over drug territory, but to have a political event where a US congressmen is wounded and 6 killed, NO Joanna, Not in Chicago.

In our city the crime rate is down, gun Violence is down, shooting deaths are down, do we have a long way to go yes, but thank god people in Chicago can't get easy access legally to gun that guy had in AZ.

Since the police office was Killed last august with guns illegally purchased in MS the Chicago police, cook county sheriff police and state police have made alot of progress catching a prosecuting these gangs that run guns from states like AZ where gun easy to get. so if states like MS, AZ would do a better job regulating the purchase of guns, streets in Chicago, NY, Philly, Detroit, would be safer.

Chicago Police office Wortham a Iraq war vet was shot and killed while off duty, visiting his parents on the south sides chatham neighborhood, thank god his father a retired Sergent saw this unfold and killed one and wounded 2 more. the gun that killed his son were not bought legally, there were bought in MS and funnled to Chicago by street gangs. so again Joanna if states Like MS and AZ had done job regulating the purchase of guns this officer, Iraq war vet would still be with us, in AZ if that goof had to wait 3 days with intensive background checks that little girl would still be with us.

i grew up there Joanna, a upper middle class Hood where i did not know what a gang , drug Conner, prostitute was. my grand father bought there in 1957 and to today is still one of the cleanest Hoods in Chicago. Look it up.

Let's see if this one will work

Only time is going to sort this out.

So Navy, I'll take that as your acceptance of my offfer to join me in waiting for the facts to come out before drawing any conclusions. Unfortunately, the rest of your post is just one big caveat that suggests you've already made up your mind. I take particular issue with this part:

The spin from the select right is giving me a headache. They are using this as a political talking point as well, even some claiming that the shooter is a liberal democrat to try and use words again to solicit a desired emotion - The liberals did it? They always try to place themselves as the victim.

By all means, share with us the documentation that proves your assertion that the right is saying the Arizona shooter was a liberal Democrat. Inquiring minds want to know. And if this mind finds a responsible spokesman on the right saying something like that, then I'll turn my rhetorical skills towards carving out a new you know what for that person. But in the absence of the proof needed to back up your claim, maybe you're the one who needs a new one.

Anna Molly: Maybe we could. If we weren't so weak. Weak-headed, anyway

You can't remember what you wrote between posts in a gap of 28 minutes, and you're calling me "weak-headed"? Too funny.

And Jeff, let me know when we get to the point where you tell me to go to hell. Thanks.

This focus by the Left on this 9 year old girl is also perplexing. Why all of sudden the concern by the Left for this child? There is collateral damage done to children in our major cities every single day.

Wow. I mean WOW. Words that speak for themselves.

JoAnnaSmith1

And Jeff, let me know when we get to the point where you tell me to go to hell. Thanks.

when you post twice that liberals are trying to capitalize on 6 murders, that when. Now today your using that little girl to further your agenda. post like you have no heart and i will give it to you again.

Wow. I mean WOW. Words that speak for themselves.

Add that to her rant last week about affirmative action and comparing Martin Luther King to Al Capone!

I'd say she's off her med's again...

Further MY agenda? Please. I guess getting your rhetoric thrown back in your face really hurts you Libs. Good. You're behavior has been abysmal the past few days. The Lefts agenda has been on center stage and displayed for all to see. Politicizing the tragedy in Arizona was mothered by the Left, and now that you've been exposed for the rats you are, now you're trying to say the Right started it. That is just warped.

One wonders how this bad behavior by the Left is playing with, oh, say, the Independents?

Has it occured to anyone that politicians on the left may be making all this noise because they're scared?

And by the way, the tea party express is ALREADY using this to raise funds.

"By all means, share with us the documentation that proves your assertion that the right is saying the Arizona shooter was a liberal Democrat. Inquiring minds want to know. And if this mind finds a responsible spokesman on the right saying something like that, then I'll turn my rhetorical skills towards carving out a new you know what for that person. But in the absence of the proof needed to back up your claim, maybe you're the one who needs a new one." - Bill, Fairfax, VA

Google these headlines:

Tea Party Group Blames 'Leftist' for Giffords Shooting

Assassin's politics lean 'left wing, quite liberal'

Klein: AZ shooter ‘left wing, quite liberal.’ Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, The Republic listed as suspected gunman’s favorite books

Feisty;

It is the same old crap from the same people. All they are doing is pointing out to everybody who visits this site that they are indeed a part of this problem. They yap about being civil and name calling but you cannot get through one of their posts without seeing what they claim they do not do. There is a few words for that.

NoJo is crying to Tyler again. The irony is that she is doing the very thing she is complaining about.

It is the same people that have been called out by the monitors for their inaccuracies of their posts, some suspended even. The problem is that they do not even know they are doing exactly what they accuse others of doing. They even try to claim the shooter was a left wing liberal that was debunked yesterday. If anything based on the very limited information on some of his writings he was leaning toward the right. He was against the HCR, against government etc.

This is part of the problem. Why even bother trying to reason or even talk with them. They are so full of hate for this country you can smell it. They are not going to change, they are going to continue to be part of the problem and not the solution and more people are going to get hurt.

This constant ads are messing up my screen, will the powers at MSNBC get rid of these things. Are you guys getting a commission or what?

The gop has democrat's in their crosshairs,incinderary bombs,anthrax,and threats from their ex dopehead

speaker(limbaugh),hennedy, fox etc.They have convinced me that the only real American is a Corporate

republican.they now own our gov.We will now have hi prices for ins,health,gasoline,more war contracts etc.

Ask not what your gop can do for you,ask what you can do for your gop.We all need more rapid fire

hand guns to help the nra,especially the mentally ill.

domer-2639681

hand guns to help the nra,especially the mentally ill

Exactly right

Beverly in Chicago Comment collapsed by the community

Repost due to cyber bullies

Clip it

When the Virginia Tech shooting occurred, I began to reflect on it and the consequences of the killings at Columbine High School too. I reject that rhetoric and metaphors alluding to death and violence did not spark the shooter’s becoming unhinged. When Byron Williams, another troubled young man, attempted to assassinate the leaders of the Tides foundations and ACLU leaders, Williams confessed he was inspired by right wing radio talker & TV pundit, Glenn Beck.

Now is the time for a ban on assult weapons as well as better monitoring and restrictions of people with psychotic disorders.,

As I’ve said before I’ve lived through Jim Crow, multiple assassinations of our leaders, including President John Kennedy and his bother Robert Kennedy, Dr Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, (who changed his militant views after a visit to Mecca), Medgar Evans, the 2 white men KILLED during the struggle of the Civil Rights, the bombing of little children and the ugly violence which led to the deaths of 6 people including a very bright 9 year old. This shooting also injured and maimed 13 others, plus the grief felt not only by their families and friends feel but also this whole nation.

All this was to supposedly win equal protection under the law for citizens. No, No, violence and death is NOT the answer. Progress was painfully slow prior to the time since and after the end of the Civil War. We can’t duplicate the time factor of yesteryears in modern days because we can advocate for greater gun control. Certainly, if we realize how NOT having better laws and restrictions we could stymie the murky process We don’t need violent rhetoric, deaths, and assault weapons which could led to another one because of paranoia fueled by talking points and calls to action. The perceived expression for free speech and the right to bear arms soon becomes an illegall blocking for everyone in this country. Life, liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness were spoken by one of our Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson. The most important of these is precious LIFE. The right to ratchet up violence, death, and hostilities against either side is not what Thomas Jefferson meant; even if it makes one happy in some perverse way.

Sarah Palin? Here’s a chance for her to prove her symbols were really harmless. And that the tea she drinks honestly is for its flavor rather than its syllogisms of hate, vitriolic, obstruction, more tax beaks for the rich and powerful, and anti-government. If she could be sincere, it is time for her to prove to America her presidential aspirations have leadership qulities. She should NOT hide behind Fox Noise. Even if she doesn’t want to apologize, she can pull her troops together by advocating she does NOT think the overthrow of the U.S. government with violent actions and death threats is American or patriotic.. She could also push the issue of banning assault weapons and advocating bold restrictions on the mentally ill. The reality for Sarah is our society does not need individuals experiencing delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, visibly incoherent thought patterns influenced by violent rhetoric symbols, and incendiary metaphors.

I have several wishes for the future. I wish Congesswonan Giffords continues to have less edema (swelling) in her brain. I hope whatever functions she has left she will use them to the of her abilities and contine to do whatever makes her happy. I want all all the families and friends of those affected by this tradgey find peace and hamony.When President Obama head to Arizona for the Memorial Service may he be safe.

Fellow comrades, let’s turn our collective pain into the power that will “nip mocked justice in the bud”.

Bill-Fairfax:

The right and the left have been overheated for about two years now but the right took it to a whole new level with Angle, Bachmann and Palin using languare that is inappropriate for public discourse.

Sarah Palin didn't just have cross-hairs on her website she is on video spouting off about "lock and reload"; Bachmann and her nonsense about how she wants her constituents "armed and dangerous" and of course last but not least, Angle and her "2nd Amendment Remedies".

Clearly the gunman who pulled the trigger Saturday is responsible for the death and destruction he brought to Tucson but one can't help but wander if deranged individuals hear all the chatter around them act out in violent ways.

I am not a psychiatrist and will leave the analysis to the professionals but all of this wild and crazy screaming at each other and our elected representatives cannot be good for the psyche of fragile minds.

Just thinkin'

Whole article is baloney. Noone is playing the victim card. Left wing media started naming of and saying it was result of hate spewed by Limbaugh and Fox. Noone is playing victim. MSNBC you make me sick you liars.

Joanna Smith -

"By proposing an amnesty bill called The DREAM Act to fast track illegals into the country?"

Not only that you keep on bashing people on the left, you're also very uninformed. The DREAM Act was supposed to help the CHILDREN of illegal immigrants who were brought to this country without having any say in the matter. It's NOT about fast-tracking anyone.

look at this

Sheila, I know several psychologists, and they all tell me this guy was most likely beyond the influence of words. He's most likely schizophrenic. These are the people that believe aliens in black helicopters have planted mind control chips in people's necks. They need drugs. Talking doesn't do much of anything until then. If you do talk to them, the most enraging comments can get no reaction at all, while the most inane comments about weather can trigger violent episodes. You see, whatever you say, it gets filtered into their own delusional version of reality, twisting your words into something usually completely unrelated to what you actually said, and completely unpredictable. His is probably not a 'fragile mind'. It is probably quite resilient to the influences of reality, for good or ill.

The vitriolic rhetoric that has been seen on both the Right and Left for many years is worrying, but it's unrelated to this tragedy. Turning this into a political game on that point is no more valid than someone using this to justify abortions ('Just imagine if he had been aborted, all of this would never have happened') or whatever.

Klein: AZ shooter 'left wing, quite liberal.'

Assassin's politics lean 'left wing, quite liberal'

These headlines are both based on a story from WorldNetDaily, which I personally never heard of. In that story there is this passage:

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=248829

"One user on Twitter, Caitie Parker, wrote she went to high school, college and was in a band with the gunman. She said she hadn't seen him since 2007.

Parker wrote of Loughner, "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal and oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

She also described him as "more left."

So what we have here is some obscure person on Twitter who claims to have known the shooter describing him as "more left." Good grief, this hearsay hardly passes the most basic of smell tests and surely does not rise to the level of being an expression of a responsible spokesman from the right. Next case:

Tea Party Group Blames 'Leftist' for Giffords Shooting

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/tea-party-group-blames-leftist-for-giffords-shooting/69153/

This headline is more troublesome and describes Judson Phillips, the founder of Tea Party Nation, as emailing his supporters thusly:

"The left is coming and will hit us hard on this. We need to push back harder with the simple truth. The shooter was a liberal lunatic."

Sorry Judson, but you're an idiot and you're not helping matters. The question then becomes whether Judson rises to the level of being a "responsible" spokesman for the right. On the basis of that quote, I would surely say hell no. Now if John Boehner had said that, well that would be different. Besides, it looks like those guys are an outlier. The same article includes this passage:

"Other tea party groups took a less combative tone. Tea Party Express Chairwoman Amy Kremer said Saturday her group was "shocked and saddened" by the "terrible tragedy."

"These heinous crimes have no place in America, and they are especially grievous when committed against our elected officials. Spirited debate is desirable in our country, but it only should be the clash of ideas," Kremer said in a statement published by the New York Times. "An attack on anyone for political purposes, if that was a factor in this shooting, is an attack on the democratic process. We join with everyone in vociferously condemning it."

Now that's my kind of Tea Party. So painting all those folks with the same broad brush just doesn't cut it.

Bill, you're referring us to a source with a "Survival Seed Bank" banner ad. Their lead stories include "How to Hide your Guns", "Bill Ayers, communist provided shooter's curriculum", "Is This the End of America" subtitled "In 2011 an Event will likely change your Life Forever", "Obamacare's baby death panels", and "Obama constitutionally eligible to serve?"

In other words, zero credibility.

When will you all stop? ALL remarks on this blog are hateful.........All of the Republican or right, Democrats or left.........everyone of you is vitriolic in your posting. Frankly I became an Independent because of the hate (used to be registered Democrat) I just could not take it any longer....Let's talk, not point fingers..let's be respectful. You all have rights to your own opinions but we don't have to yell at each other, just talk and discuss things like civilized people.

John B. -- geez, what a dolt. I'm responding to sources posted by Nashville_Fan in post #6.38. You really need to keep up. But you're right about the first source, zero credibility. You can thank Nash for that.

And you know John, if you weren't so anxious to immediately revert to knee jerk attack mode around here, you might be a worthwhile person to debate. But sadly, you seem to prefer being a low life attack dog instead. Such a waste.

Bill,

You asked why folks were saying that some folks "on the right" were saying that the Arizona shooter was a liberal.

I answered that question. . . whether or not you feel these folks are high enough to be noticed is a subjective opinion.

Folks around here have believed much loonier stuff based on much weaker evidence for sure.

Jared wasn't listening to Palin, or Beck, or Obama, or Al gore, or even Ms. Giffords.He was listening to the voices in his head, and couldn't hear anyone else.Politics and rhetoric had no part whatsoever in this tragedy.Those who saw the signs of his mental health problems and did nothing are to blame.

I agree, Nash---it is too bad that we aren't able to respectfully disagree any more. The "my way or the highway" mentality doesn't promote compromise or an ability to discover new solutions to problems.

Nash and Steeler Fan;

Just look at the post here today. What has happened over the weekend has had no effect on the right. The uncivil dialogue continues, worse than ever. I do not see anything changing any time soon other than we are putting more innocent people in harms way for what?

This is not a right, left or center issue. It touches everybody and we better understand that and stop the snarky little remarks.

I second your comments Steelerfan and Navy . . . it seems many are choosing to "reload" instead of reflect . . . sad.

You are right, Amy----our hosts here at FR have made a powerful statement. I think we should all call out any violent, de-humanizing or de-legitimizing rhetoric as they put it---regardless of who utters it.

Amy, I as well agree that yesterday and today on First Read, these articles written should give us all pause as to how we are all reacting to what happened in Tuscon. We know more today than we did yesterday and Sunday & Saturday. We ought to be looking at why this happened. Yet again.

Websites as a whole aren't helping the situation. Everyone is looking for that "smoking gun" so they can blame someone or some party. Negativity I would think would push an already unstable person over the edge towards something like this. Sometimes all they need is the justification for their behavior. And it is very hard to know who is capable of such a thing. Which is why we need stricter gun laws. As strict as humanly possibly.

And yes, the right needs to tone it down. All I see from them is images of guns blazing. Why? What are their issues? Can't they talk about them instead of scaring people?

But to repeat, great First Read yet again. It's nice to see thoughtful mature articles that make us think of how we're engaging with others. And to look at the possible reasons as to why this man did this.

This reminds me a little bit of the JFK assassination. The evidence was there all along. The motives were there all along.

Yet we heard for decades how this one did it, that one did it - and no one was paying attention to what we had learned from the evidence.

It was there all along. Is this the case here as well? That he had a personal vendetta against Rep. Giffords? Just as Oswald did against JFK?

John in Des Moines, has there been any evidence presented that the Tucson nutjob ever listened to Limbaugh, Beck, or any other conservative commentator? I am not aware of any.

Back in 2009, I posted on this blog about the Fort Hood shootings. I suggested that Islamic hatred of America may have been responsible. Boy did the liberals on this site ever let me have it for that! How dare I suggest that anyone other than the shooter was responsible. This was the act of one lone person, and no one else is to blame.

My how times have changed.

Here's an idea, sweetcakes:

Why don't you spend the rest of the day on here bitching about the left. That ought to help the situation a bunch.

Argue With Your Neighbors, Get In Their Face!! - BH Obama Sept 19, 2008

Language has consequences.

** Obama to His Followers: "Get in Their Faces!"“I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.

Got any more I can dispel for you?

We'll be waiting for you to put into context: 'Bullets over Ballots'! or 'Second Amendment remedies'!

But we won't be holding our breath! ;o)

JoAnnaSmith1

Argue With Your Neighbors, Get In Their Face!! - BH Obama Sept 19, 2008

Language has consequences.

YES HE SAID ARUGE, NOT SHOOT !!!!!!!!!

Folks, there is no sense in reading or responding to JS1. She adds nothing to the dialog.

It's kinda fun watching her grow more desperate when she's ignored though! ;o)

Yesterday was a real hoot! lol

I said not one word about whether Loughner was motivated by Conservative ideology.

I said that Conservative leaders are most comfortable in an emotional environment and that is why "activists, especially on the right, were playing the victim when there are so many actual victims -- the deceased, the wounded, the grieving -- in Arizona."

They've responded in a way that indicates they have no intention of backing away from the incendiary rhetoric as well. People like Rush Limbaugh will lead the attack, hoping to silence the opposition through bellicose indignation. Those who are participants in the government will run the clock by saying "this isn't the time for that discussion." After a few days the whole thing dies down a bit and they can go back to the same rhetoric they've used in the past -- "Hopefullly we...don't have to resort to the bullet box."

Unless we accept that language has consequences.

So all you great thinkers how is it that political speech drives one to murder innocent people but violent video games do not? violent gangster rap does not? violent heavy metal music does not? violent movies do not? Thousands of violent images on the internet does not? Far more people are affected by these than politicians yet political speech is the major factor you all make me laugh

bcct, worthy of discussion but not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is;

Language has consequences.

So the language in the above mentioned media is not language

John B- "I said that Conservative leaders are most comfortable in an emotional environment and that is why "activists, especially on the right, were playing the victim when there are so many actual victims -- the deceased, the wounded, the grieving -- in Arizona."

Here's a thought for you John - Maybe if we on the Right weren't always having to defend against the demonizing and the baseless attacks from the Left, you wouldn't think we were always " playing the victim". After reading the comments today what I'm seeing is you folks on the Left, STILL trying and hoping that there's some connection to this nutjob with the Right. Do you ever defend yourself when attacked? Of course you do. To say that we are "playing the victim" is just another baseless accusation.

Language has consequences...yeah it does. It had consequences in 1776 when a room full of men wrote their declaration to George III. A liberal named Thomas Jefferson wrote that.

It had consequences when the framework of the new country was set forth in the constitution. A liberal named James Madison wrote it.

It had consequences when that same liberal added the Bill of Rights to the document. There was language such as

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

and

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

There are indeed consequences to language, especially language which looks to restrict the rights of all citizens.

If you enjoy the freedom to utilize graphics which depict crosshairs over congressional districts, thank a liberal.

Maybe if we on the Right weren't always having to defend against the demonizing and the baseless attacks from the Left, you wouldn't think we were always " playing the victim".

District Judge John Roll and 5 others are dead, but you're the victim.

Thanks for making FR's point.

Stop being an idiot John. I never claimed to be a victim. Read back to your statements, YOU say the Right claims to be victims. The only thing I said is we fight back against the demonizing and baseless accusations.

Thanks for making MY point.

Typical liberal, always twisting peoples words for their own gains. Never acknowledging that you are as guilty as those you accuse.

The biggest problem with the hateful speech is not only what it does to politics. It seems to inflame people so much that it carries over into their daily lives. Have you not noticed how aggressively people drive these days? Have you not noticed how impatient people are at the grocery store and everywhere you go? The anger and aggression is everywhere and I think it's a carryover from the overall language we hear from the media. I've only heard Rush Limbaugh when I get in my car and the radio is tuned to the station he happens to be on, and I never have listened to FOX or whatever channel has those pundits from the left, but whenever I've heard Rush speak he's always yelling. I don't believe the man knows how to speak in a conversational tone of voice and he's always angry about something. I have members of my family and many friends who do listen to him and I detect in their thinking about many things just a whole lot of anger and hate towards people, politicians, our country, just about anything you can name. These people used to be sane people with opinions but not so mean and hateful. I think whenever anyone willingly allows themselves to be brainwashed by anyone three hours a day five days a week they are going to act on what they are putting into their brains.

I don't know what was going on in the mind of the shooter on Saturday to make him have so much hate against this member of congress, or whose fault it might be. But even if he had never listened to any of the pundits from the right or the left the hate that they've spewed the past several years has permeated all of society and he obviously had picked up on some of it. As others have said, language does have consequences.

And we've been told he bought this gun legally. Why does anyone need a gun that is only good for one thing, killing a lot of people? If people think they need a gun for their protection, that's fine with me. If a person wants a gun for hunting that's fine with me. But nobody except law enforcement needs a gun that can spray 20 or 30 rounds so quickly unless they intend to kill a bunch of people. These guns should be outlawed. I know many people don't agree with me, but if you or someone you love has the misfortune to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and ends up getting shot by one of these weapons I have a feeling you would change your mind real quick. Only a coward needs something like this.

11acr,

Must be hot out there at Irwin............remember this..........."if they bring a knife, we'll bring a gun"

Before we start with this bullsh!t again this morning - here's that comment amongst others in 'context':

Shout out to Fletch2 for allowing me to borrow this!

Obama: "They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun"“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama told the audience. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.

** Obama to His Followers: "Get in Their Faces!"“I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face.

** Obama on ACORN Mobs: "I don't want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I'm angry!".......I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry. I’m angry,” Mr. Obama said, his voice reaching a peak seven days after learning of the bonuses given to employees of the American International Group. “What I want to do, though, is channel our anger in a constructive way.”

** Obama to His Mercenary Army: "Hit Back Twice As Hard".....And they screened TV ads and reviewed the various campaigns by critics of the Democratic plan. If you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard, Messina(not Obama) said, according to an official who attended the meeting.

** Obama on the private sector: "We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick."....NBC's Matt Lauer asked Obama about the criticism that he should spend more time in the Gulf instead of with experts and "kick some butt."...Obama told NBC his deliberations have been more than academic......."I don't sit around talking to experts because this is a college seminar," Obama continued. "We talk to these folks because they potentially have the best answers, so I know whose ass to kick."

Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean "hand to hand combat"...........A Republican majority in Congress would mean “hand-to-hand combat” on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy, President Obama warned Wednesday…"They are fired up. They are mobilized. They see an opportunity to take back the House, maybe take back the Senate," he said. "If they're successful in doing that, they've already said they're going to go back to the same policies that were in place during the Bush administration. That means that we are going to have just hand-to-hand combat up here on Capitol Hill."

Obama to lib supporters: "It's time to Fight for it." ...."When it comes to taking a punch, I don't know whether you're Muhammad Ali or Floyd Patterson," Axelrod wrote to Obama in a November 2006 memo reported in a new book that reprises the campaign by Washington Post political reporter Dan Balz and former Post writer Haynes Johnson. Now Obama supporters are wondering about their man. If they're to see what he's made of, Obama has to first get in the ring. Forget the niceties, it's time to fight.

Obama to Latino supporters: "Punish your enemies."..“If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, ‘We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,’ if they don’t see that kind of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it’s gonna be harder and that’s why I think it’s so important that people focus on voting on November 2.”

** Obama to democrats: "I'm itching for a fight."As fellow Democrats accuse him of caving in to Republicans on the tax cut deal, President Obama is repeatedly promising them that he will fight the GOP aggressively when it takes over the U.S. House and adds senators next month. "I will be happy to see the Republicans test whether or not I'm itching for a fight on a whole range of issues," Obama said last week. "I suspect they will find I am. And I think the American people will be on my side on a whole bunch of these fights."

Enough with this... well you guys do it to!

We'll be waiting for you to put into context: 'Bullets over Ballots'! or 'Second Amendment remedies'!

ahhhhhh, ok that clears it up.

Enemy:

1. One who feels hatred toward, intends injury to, or opposes the interests of another; a foe.
2.
a. A hostile power or force, such as a nation.
b. A member or unit of such a force.

3. A group of foes or hostile forces.
4. Something destructive or injurious in its effects:

Feisty, I understand what Obama was/is saying, I don't have a problem with it. The problem is that you can't have one side say what Obama said and then turn around and slam another person for the same metaphor.

Ye'see Paul, that's the thing. The left bellows "Language has consequences", so what exact language do they want people to use? Who determines what language is proper and what language is threatening? The answer you'll probably get from the Left will probably be "It depends on the context". Well, okay. So when is it okay to say "If they bring a knife, we'll bring a gun"?

I guess we'll need a new federal Department of Language to sort this all out. They can work with the Federal Election Commission on making sure politicians "talk right" when they campaign. At least then tragedies like we see in Arizona will "Never happen again".

Why thank you Paul for reminding all of us the definition of 'enemy'! That's VERY generous of you!

I will now be able to sleep comfortably tonight!

In the meantime, how about you put into context: 'Bullets over Ballots'! or 'Second Amendment remedies'!

And share that with us as well?

Inquiring minds would like to know...

It is surprising by comments posted here; Democrats don't blame God as well. You seem to think a person's political affiliation or not; are responsible for the actions or in-actions of a mentally disturbed individual. Of course, everyone knows in a Democrats mind; they think "In the beginning the Democrat created the earth" anything less perfect is unacceptable...

If people like Obama and Democrat Supporters have their way: every bible in the country would be burned; any mention or teaching of faith would be subject to arrest; one out of two pregnancies would be subjected to mandatory abortions; the act of marriage would be disallowed; every computer would be monitored by the government; our borders would be open to anyone crossing with any agenda; we would all be standing in line for government approved health-care; government sanctioned employment; and food staples issued by the government; children would be educated under sanctioned government revised education programs and brainwashed to report any "Conservative Thinkers" out there.

Isn't the Democrats version of America wonderful? Let's not forget our national debt, however, not to worry; Obama will just borrow additional loans from China. Fundamentally, we wouldn't be calling it "United States of America" anymore; that's too "free thinking". Obama and his like, won't be satisfied until this country is government controlled and all liberties and freedoms, such as the "Constitution and Bill of Rights", are a thing of the past; and this country is re-designated something, such as, "Socialist North American Union".

You want this to stop; contact the sponsors of these vitriolic programs and tell them you will no longer buy their products! Nothing speaks louder than the loss of revenue to these companies. This goes for both sides!

Who is dead because of any of the statements you're using against president Obama.

June, 2009;

A rifle-wielding white supremacist entered Washington's Holocaust museum on Wednesday afternoon, fatally shooting a security guard before being wounded himself by return fire from other guards, authorities said.

Stephen Tyrone Johns, a six-year veteran of the museum's security staff, later "died heroically in the line of duty," said Sara Bloomfield, museum director.

Therese, you're exhibiting the same inflammatory language that we're trying to warn against.

I am a deacon, elder, and board member in a Christian congregation. I serve as a committee chair, and tonight will attend a board meeting for one of the organizations supported by my denomination.

I, like a number of my fellow congregants, am politically Liberal. Your attempt to steal my God, my Christ for political gain is repugnant and ridiculous. Practice your faith as you see fit, it's your right under the First Amendment.

It's also MY right under the First Amendment. Don't pretend to speak for all Christians.

Feisty,

Good, I'm glad I'm able to make your life a safer place. See what I do for you?

To answer your question and this is my opinion, the "bullet over ballots" and 2nd Amendment remedies are stupid statements. There's no excuse for it and still doesn't justify the comments like "they bring a knife, we'll bring a gun", also a stupid comment. I don't know where you think I support those such comments or why you want me to defend it. That doesn't make sense to me. That's like this Skip guy that says you have to be either a Liberal or Hard Right. I guess seeing both sides of the issues make me some kind of out cast. What I do see is that people like Olbermann and Matthews twist and provoke their followers to think the worse in people THEY don't like and yes Beck and Hannity do the same on the Right.

There, that's my opinion and now that I know you sleep better at night, my job is done!!

ThereseInNevada

It is difficult to follow this rambling description of the Democratic party. However, I am interested in being linked to your supporting Facts...where would I find them? I am particularly interested in reading where they want to burn all Bibles, abort one of every two fetuses, disallow marriage, and get all our food directly from the government....OMG!!!!!!!! Truly, this is scary stuff......

Re ThereseinNevada: See, This is exactly what I mean. The lies and distortion preached by the right are very effective. Despite evidence to the contrary, despite a reasoned argument, Therese believes these things. Republican elected officials are pleased this is so--it means she will be motivated to vote for them. Means justify the ends.

Therese--President Bush put us in the deficit hole borrowing from China to pay for his Iraq War, his War on Terror and great hunt for WMDs, crashing the economy while he was in office and coming up with the wonderful TARP program that required even more borrowing from China. Yes, I do wish the president had not supported Bush's folly and let the banks fail.

How can anyone respond to her claim that President Obama hates Christianity so much that he wants to burn all the bibles in the country. This has been repeated to her so much that she will never believe otherwise.

Alas, we did not get much in the way of health care reform. The insurance companies still rule. Sure, they are supposed to insure people even if, they have a pre-existing condition--the alternative being that they just die, I guess--but now everyone will be forced to buy health care insurance. By the way, once you reach age 65, you'll go into a govt-controlled health care program--Medicare. Of course, you don't have to take advantage of it. You can continue to buy your own insurance or foot the entire health care bill out of your own pocket.

Where you got the notion that you will be forced to have an abortion or not permitted to marry, I can only surmise that either Rush Limbaugh or Fox News advised you of that.

A perfect example of how effective this rhetoric has been.

BlueBurner;

And thereinlies the problems. Given enough time some people will believe anything or distort what what said into something they want (or need) to hear. This is what make unbridled rhetoric so dangerous.

Yes Navy, during the past four years we have head distortions from what the legislators has told us. It does make unbridled rhetoric even more dangerous when the media expands this methodology in their reporting.

One of his favorit books was the Communist Manifesto. Another was Mein Kampf. His girl friend identified him as a "left-wing pot-smoker." The pieces of this puzzle are fitting together as many have suspected all along!

This guy was acting on instructions he recieved from Obama! You know the ones:

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.”

Get out there and “punish our enemies”

“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

“Punch back twice as hard.”

I want to know “whose ass to kick”

“…I’m itching for a fight.”

These were all from Obama and it looks like someone actually followed through!

She never said "Pick up a gun and shoot your representative".

She was saying, "Hey republicans in these districts, vote"

Chef Darryl, no one has claimed that Palin is to blame but everyone should question the words. Why didn't Palin just say, "take back your country with your VOTE. Why suggest violence, why don't retreat, reload, why put crosshairs on certain candidates. Most people hear the intent but the deranged hear the actual words. There is blame for Palin and all the others, not directly, but words have consequences.

Jodi,

Oh stop with that crap. The past 4 days I've seen plenty of posts here claiming Palin should be arrested for murder.

I think you could make similar points on other issues, Jody---health care reform, for example---the larger point being that our government is bought and paid for by monied interests and they dial up the rhetoric to hide that fact. And I think this applies to Democrats as well as Republicans----they answer to their masters.

We cannot have a reasonable discussion of the gun problem because it results in the automatic NRA response, hateful attacks on liberals with threats that say democrats want to take away your guns, they want to take away your 2nd amendment rights, they want to ban all weapons, they plan to have One World Order, and so on.

Those anti-gun control arguments sound like the sort of incoherent beliefs that a disturbed individual like Jared Loughner might have, but there are apparently millions of people who buy into such nonsense. There were so many people who believed it that the price of ammo spiked after President Obama was elected. None of those people will probably ever go off the deep end like Loughner, but the prevalence of irrational paranoia will enable more like him. Loughner was using his Glock for the purpose for which it was intended, and there is no hope that such weapons will ever be put under rational regulations in the present political climate.

Steeler Fan:

I think you could make similar points on other issues, Jody---health care reform, for example

And people like Palin are still talking about death panels, which is a rightwing lie that even the NY Times treats seriously despite the fact that it's another claim that's as deranged as anything on Jared Loughner's web site.

When the Founding Fathers wrote the 2nd amendment, they had muskets, revolvers and cannons. They never could have envisioned machine guns, AK47s, semi-automatics and mass-killing weapons. That to me is a distinction between intent and reality; it is something to think about. Technology allows tremendous progress in so many areas but that same technology also can be used to cause tremendous harm.

April, 2009 Richard Poplawski killed 3 police officers and wounded another because he believed President Barack Obama would send people to take his guns.

No one was planning to take Richard Poplawski's guns. TO THIS DAY no one is planning to come for anyone's guns, yet fear of gun control is one of the reliable talking points of the Right wing echo chamber.

Exactly the kind of deliberately inflammatory rhetoric that creates these situations.

Language has consequences.

Those posting here have probably read comments elsewhere and those from the right sound desperately similar. Someone has tried to google instances of when liberals have used a sentence that has "gun" in it or find other examples to prove that--what?--the left is just as bad as the right.

So now we can these laundry lists of very weak examples. Like when the president quoted some film dialogue with the trite saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight. Or when he said "oh, shoot!" Or when he referred to someone as an enemy (which he immediately apologized for) instead of an adversary. The Fort Hood Shooting example continues to mystify me. I believe it is provided as an example where leadership cautioned against assuming terrorists were at work just because the shooter was a Muslim. I guess it's an example to show that we are jumping to conclusions by speculating that the shooter was fueled by some political rhetoric, although it's pretty clear he had some political motivation given the scene he chose and the people he targeted.

The complaint here has to do with the kind of politically toxic atmosphere that has existed in Arizona for quite some time now, the kind that breeds this kind of derangement. I've lived through this before. During the civil rights era when integration was being implemented, those opposed constantly screamed their opposition fueled by the most outrageous lies. Blacks were inferior, animals, rapists, murderers who if allowed into schools and neighborhoods would destroy the superior white culture. As a result, black leaders were killed, lynched, drowned and beaten. Churches were blown up and children killed. Houses were blown up if they were sold to black people, crosses burned on lawns. In response, King crafted a response of nonviolence rather than a call to arms. So black people took the beatings, the hosings, and buried their dead. He believed that Christian principles and reason would prevail.

The Right has fueled their base by using the most fiery oratory 24/7. It's been very effective. Their voters actually believe that the president is a socialist and that he and his wife are terrorists out to take their country. They believe that he is an illegal immigrant whose presidency is illegitimate. They believe that he wants to kill elderly people. They believe that he is out to punish whites for their enslavement of black people. They believe that he was raised in a radical Islam madrassa and wants to turn the country over to the Muslims. These are all lies that breed fear and rage. Of course Bill Reilly would employ security knowing the tempest he is cultivating. You engage in this kind of illogical, inflammatory rhetoric, you are afraid of the flak.

What are you saying? That the vile things Rush Limbaugh spews day in and day out is the truth? If people believe these things, they are going to be angry thinking everything is going to be taken away from them. So you have constant conflict--sparks lead to flames.

There is a big difference between heated debate and speeches made of lies and distortions. Even when you present someone with evidence to the contrary and a reasoned response, they still won't believe you.

During Bush's presidency, the left did not indulge in this kind of nonsense, although some say the left called for his assassination. I have yet to see any link referencing this claim (although the president has endured death threats from day one of his candidacy to this day). But we did call for his IMPEACHMENT and his INDICTMENT for war crimes. I can't recall any insane liberals running out to political events to assassinate political figures.

They made movies about assassinating Bush for God's sake. You guys have blinders on!

You mean the movie made by a British producer and shown on British TV, stillkickin?

Perhaps you'd like to share with us how something that happened overseas is the fault of American Liberals. I suppose we must be responsible for the jihad against Salman Rushdie as well.

Yes, that movie. I'm glad you're familiar with it. Tell me John, I'm curious, did you speak out against it like Hillary did, or did you stay quiet. Maybe share a wink or a chuckle about it with your friends. Many, not all liberals, thought it was funny.

How about the map with Republican bullseyes that the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee used last year, or the map with Republican bullseyes that the Democratic Leadership Committee used in 2004.Or maybe the one on the Daily Kos that was taken down the same day Sarah Palin's was. Did you speak out strongly against those?

You don't get to have it both ways. If it's wrong for one then it's wrong for all.

It was the worst sort of crass, exploitive commercialism. The Producer clearly took advantage of the unpopularity of GW Bush to tell a story he couldn't have in his country had the subject been, say, Tony Blair or Angela Merkel.

As such it still had nothing to do with American Liberals or the Democratic Party.

Don't care to answer my questions, huh? Thought so.

I just answered your question about the movie. As for your attempt to build some sort of equivalency, there’s a clear pattern of people being motivated to commit violent acts by inflammatory language from the Right;

It was an isolated event, we were told, you can’t predict what crazy people will do or where they get their crazy ideas.

February, 2009 the FBI revealed that James Cummings of Belfast, Maine had been stockpiling uranium, thorium, lithium, beryllium, and other materials to construct a radiological “dirty bomb.” Cummings was “very upset” when Barack Obama was elected president.

It was an isolated event, we were told, you can’t predict what crazy people will do or where they get their crazy ideas.

April, 2009 Richard Poplawski killed 3 police officers and wounded another because he believed President Barack Obama would send people to take his guns.

It was an isolated event, we were told, you can’t predict what crazy people will do or where they get their crazy ideas.

May, 2009 Scott Roeder was arrested for the killing of Dr. George Tiller as tiller served his church as an usher. Cable news personality Bill O’Reilly had focused his attention on Dr. Tiller over 2 dozen times previously, normally referring to him as “Tiller the killer” do to the fact that his practice provided legal abortion services.

This is a difficult subject, one people feel passionate about. It’s no wonder Tiller was killed in that environment. O’Reilly certainly bore no responsibility, because you can’t predict what crazy people will do or where they get their crazy ideas.

March, 2010 a propane line was cut at the home of the brother of Rep. Tom Perriello in an apparent attempt to cause a fire or explosion. The address of Perriello’s brother had mistakenly been identified as the address of Congressman Perriello by Tea Party activists who wished to inspire protests at the Representative’s home.

This is certainly NOT what the Tea party means when they speak of “taking back our country”, “second amendment remedies”, or “watering the tree of Liberty with the blood of Patriots and tyrants.” In any case you can’t predict what crazy people will do or where they get their crazy ideas.

July, 2010 Byron Williams is involved in a shootout with California Highway Patrol. This altercation undoubtedly saved some innocent lives because Williams was on his way to the Tides Foundation intending to kill anyone he could at that location. Williams was inspired to kill because Glenn Beck’s broadcasts had convinced him that the Foundation was center of a secret Liberal plot to destroy the United States.

You can’t predict what crazy people will do or where they get their crazy ideas. In any event Glenn Beck isn’t responsible, and he renewed his attacks on the Tides Foundation the next day.

January 8, 2011. Jared Lee Loughner attempts to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords at a Safeway store in Arizona. He then turns his gun on anyone in the immediate area. Six are killed, ranging in age from 9 to 79, 14 others injured. Loughner believes among other things that the present government is a threat to his Liberty and that there is an impending monetary collapse. Sources are available to fan the flames of such paranoia.

Can you build a similar case against the Left?

Language has consequences.

Nice deflection. Still didn't answer my questions.

Edit to read : Nice deflection. Still didn't answer my questions. I guess Liberals think it's ok for Liberals to do something but if anyone that doesn't agree with you speaks up - demonize them.

And you still trying to blame the actions of this deranged person on the Right, after all that's come out, is insane. Tell a lie enough times.......Never let a crisis go to waste........Alinsky would be so proud of you. I think it's disgusting but pretty much par for the course for most Liberals.

Deflection? No, the deflection was WAY up the page when, given the opportunity to speak on behalf of civil discourse you instead responded by claiming the Left does it all the time. Asked if you had any examples of people on the Left being moved to violence by inflammatory language you just repeated the charge. Given examples of violent actions of people motivated by inflammatory language from the Right you just repeated the charge.

You're comfortable dealing in an overheated, emotional atmosphere. As long as you can point and say "yeah, but that guy was crazy" you've absolved the Right of responsibility.

You've had repeated chances to speak on behalf of civil discourse and you refuse to do so. That's not on me, no matter how hard you work to make it so. That's on you.

Sure John, whatever you say. You're always right. Anyone with an opposing view is always wrong. It's all on me. It's never on you or any other liberal. OK John, thanks for clearing everything up. I sure wish I could live in a world like yours where I could always blame someone else and never have to have any personal responsibility or acknowledge that people with the same beliefs as I could be wrong also. That will never happen though because I won't ever be a liberal. I know, that's on me too. Have a good life.

Too easy, Houston. When she stops saying stupid things and takes a much-needed time out to study ... oh, I don't know ... anything.

Interesting, introspective (not) response, Floyd. While we're at it, though, perhaps we ought to ask: which came first, Rush Limbaugh or his detractors.

Sarah Palin's wounds are self-inflicted. If she would engage her brain before opening her mouth she would save herself a lot of embarrassment. She's a beauty queen and has reached well beyond her meager mental resources. But what's left for her? Go back to fishing with the First Dude? She's had a taste of celebrity and she wants more. It's a tragedy worthy of the bard. The more she reaches for more fame and fortune the deeper the hole she digs for herself. I would pity her if she weren't so dangerous.

Liberals eat their own Floyd, you see it on here from time to time. To be fair the Hard Core Right does too. Liberal's need Palin...........

My Paul, what a brilliant response. Did you think of that all by yourself? Unfortunately you are wrong, I have it on good authority that neither "Liberals" or the "Hard Core Right" eat their own.

Perhaps you are drawing on personal experience? Has anybody checked on the whereabouts of your children? Immediate family? If you are neither "liberal" or "Hard Core Right", what are you then?

Oh, I see, stuck in the middle again are you?

Well, thanks for stopping by and sharing your..uh...observations with us.

Skip,

Your "authority"?? Ok, please explain? So in your opinion, you have to be either Liberal or Hard Right in political views? Boy, that's pretty one sided don't you think? Can you think outside the box there Skip? That statement below says, "Hey, can somebody tell me what to do, because I can't think on my own".

Yup, I'm in the Middle, because that statement below is what's wrong with this country, you have one view and one view only.

"Perhaps you are drawing on personal experience? Has anybody checked on the whereabouts of your children? Immediate family? If you are neither "liberal" or "Hard Core Right", what are you then?"

Floyd-779397

Balz is correct.

Balz is full of it. The "left" goes after Palin a lot less viciously than the right goes after Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama. But that's quite beside the point. Balz is pretending to be an "objective" "journalist" who's just reporting the facts, m'am. And he shouldn't be sneaking his right-wing opinions into a purported news article in the Washington Post. If he wants to spout rightwing blather, he should take it to the editorial page.

People on the left aren't saying that you can't criticize and satirize political figures like Palin (and Obama, for that matter). What they ARE saying is that maybe it's not a good idea to talk about "taking them out" and using gun sights on maps of their Congressional districts and "2nd Amendment remedies" if they don't do what you want them or claiming they are evil tyrants who want to destroy America and nutty stuff like that.

What are you saying here, Floyd? It sounds a great deal like "be quiet if you know what's good for you."

Language has consequences.

What's messed up this this whole thing, you have a Sheriff that made a POLITCAL statement based on HIS OWN OPINION on National TV and Olbermann got all excited and repeated and repeated and repeated it.

This Sheriff based his opinion on what HE doesn't like to hear and used the media to get his point across. Why don't you think he won't appear on Fox after he was asked, what evidence do you have to base your claims this was political and when he answered I don't have any, well that shot his creditibility out the window.

This was a chance for the Left to use this horrible event to gain, exploit, or whatever you want to call it to get their message out. Honestly, I think it will bite Liberals in the A@@, time will tell.

oh, by the way Skip, I came across this a few minutes ago, “People on the hard right think I’m a sellout,” maybe he didn't say "eat their own", but I hope you understand the similarities. Heck what do I know, I don't have any authority.

Really John B? You took that as a threat? WOW and you're a Deacon? MAN maybe you need to practice what you preach!!!! You're a hypocrite times 10!!!

Hey Paul, thanks for dropping by again and for using my proper nickname. I appreciate it.

Actually I consider myself a centrist. I am an independent and always have been. I do not claim allegiance to either political party. I'm probably a little left of center but not that much. Hey, I live in Oklahoma. Ronald Reagan is regarded as a flaming Hollywood liberal here. But I digress.

Your original comment made no sense to me. Sorry.

Have a nice day and thanks for participating.

Paul, I'm not the one saying to lay off Palin or I'll be hated.

Houston

I guess that goes for the book written on how to assassinate former Pres Bush when he was pres That was perfectly ok with the left just like the violence in music and movies and video games have nothing to do with the current atmosphere. Its only conservative speech that drives people to do violent acts You think if the conservatives had that power it would not be used every minute of every day until all libs were gone ?

Floyd -

"If you want to lower the temperature of this discussion, you better lower those attacks on Palin. It's time for you to stop hating on Palin if you don't want libbies to get hated too."

It's obvious from some of the comments on here that we liberals are already hated. We'll stop attacking Sarah Palin as soon as conservatives leave President Obama alone.

"Perhaps you are drawing on personal experience? Has anybody checked on the whereabouts of your children? Immediate family? If you are neither "liberal" or "Hard Core Right", what are you then?"

This statement sums up soooooo much of what is wrong with government these days. The ironic thing is, I'd bet that the majority of the voting public sits right in the middle. I believe these centrists are the ones that put the GOP in control of the senate this time, primarily because they were not happy with the shenanigans of the Democrats, and Pelosi's and Reids unwillingness to do what is right for the majority of the people, as opposed the extreme left. I'd be willing to bet that if the GOP tries to play the same game for the next couple of years, then the swing will move back to the left. You'd think that being in the center is a bad thing. Why is it bad to agree with some republican viewpoints and some democrat viewpoints??

bcct:

Its only conservative speech that drives people to do violent acts

If you say so. But I certainly said no such thing. There have been periods in US history when left-wing violence was worse than right wing violence, most notably in the 1960s. But now it's mostly right-wing violence that's the problem. As for Palin, I doubt Loughner even saw her gun sight graphic or read her crazy "Don't retreat, reload" comment. Violent video games and movies may have been primarily what influenced him to do what he did. But that doesn't mean that violent rhetoric like Palin's shouldn't be condemned.

You don't really have to ask that question, do you, Tom? ;-)

Floyd, us libbies hate what the teapartiers represent. We hate it. Did you watch Rachel last night as she spoke about the campaign offices across the country which were smashed because their representative voted for health care reform?

What the hell is going on with them? Are you going to speak up and demand that they stop it? If not, don't talk to us about being hypocrites.

These teapartiers stand for what? Over throwing the government? Over what? Health care?

Which 'party' showed up at public appearances with signs saying "we came unarmed...THIS TIME"? Who could that have been...?

Floyd, we've repeatedly backed off after tragedy because "now isn't the time to debate this issue." WHEN is it time to debate this issue? It's no coincidence that after each violent occurrence everyone agrees to not talk about it, then things just get worse.

That's WHY things get worse.

Language has consequences.

You named 4 people who supposedly speak for the conservatives, and say they are to blame. I could name 4 liberal commentators for every one of yours, who are just as caustic, if not more so. And you are quite misled about "calling for violence". I have never heard Beck, Palin, or any other conservative call for violence. While on the other hand, communists such as Van Jones, Andy Stern and others are always calling for it. You use any act of violence, or any inequities in our society, from whatever areana it stems from, to promote gun control, and all the other socialist programs, and now even free speech. Why don't you just learn to govern yourselves instead of trying to control everyone else?

And as per Pat in Boston, it is just like a liberal to demand that conservatives be constricted in their views and actions. And THAT is what the Tea Party is all about. Liberty. Just as the Tea Party in Boston over 200 years ago demonstrated that free men were fed up with government control and taxation, so we are today!

Floyd, we've repeatedly backed off after tragedy because "now isn't the time to debate this issue." WHEN is it time to debate this issue?

Debate? Kind of hard to "debate" when the Left comes out swinging and bellowing: "The Rights rhetoric is to blame!!"

You're not interested in any kind "debate" John. You're interested in performing a smear job. And it's not going well for you. Not well at all.