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Subscribe to RSSThe shooting in Tucson, AZ, of, among others, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, prompted a debate among conservative and liberal bloggers over whether heated, often-violent rhetoric should be discouraged from political discourse or left alone for the sake of free speech.
Jack Shafer from the left-leaning Slate wrote over the weekend that any restrictions on language, inflammatory or not, would contradict the democratic principle of freedom of speech, and the ability to express one's views verbally, rather than through violence or other actions.
Our spirited political discourse, complete with name-calling, vilification—and, yes, violent imagery—is a good thing. Better that angry people unload their fury in public than let it fester and turn septic in private. The wicked direction the American debate often takes is not a sign of danger but of freedom. And I'll punch out the lights of anybody who tries to take it away from me.
Conservative blogger Ed Morrissey at Hot Air also wrote of what he saw as a slippery slope if any type of political discourse, violent or otherwise, is discouraged.
Already we have at least one member of Congress proposing to outlaw the use of crosshair symbols in political advertisements, a bill that should run afoul of the new House rule to cite constitutional authority for any new legislation. It also would create the ironic situation where the government could create a prior restraint on political speech by banning the use of crosshairs or bullseyes when the plain meaning isn’t violence, but where their use on actual shooting targets would still be allowed. What’s next, the banning of dart boards?
But Steve Benen, the liberal blogger at the Washington Monthly, who has been critical of overheated rhetoric in politics, said that he doesn't advocate legal limits on speech, just simply the cooling of particularly inflammatory speech.
I'd like to see conservatives turn down the temperature on some of their more extreme rhetoric, but it's never occurred to me to call for legal restrictions on anyone's speech...
...Perhaps the single most outrageous form of political speech I can think of in recent history was Sharron Angle's talk of 'Second-Amendment remedies.' All kinds of people said Angle's comments were disgusting, but did anyone suggest for a moment she shouldn't have been allowed to say it? Shafer fears a slippery slope -- first we urge people to show restraint, and the next thing you know, the First Amendment is under attack. These fears seem wholly unnecessary -- the point is about unenforced societal expectations and basic political norms. Nothing more.
Daily Kos' Barbara Morrill maintained that Jared Lee Loughner's shooting spree was affected, to some degree, by Republicans' use of violent rhetoric, despite proof that Loughner was influenced by any organized political group or ideology.
Since the election of Barack Obama, the right, both elected Republicans and their minions in the media, have pounded the non-stop drumbeat that Obama/Democrats/liberals want to destroy the country, they want to kill your grandmother, they're shredding the Constitution, they're terrorist sympathizers, they're going to take away your guns, that they're enemies of humanity, that the government is the enemy ...
And that, as much as the obvious examples of violent rhetoric, can appeal to the extremist, the mentally unstable, or the 'lone nut,' to act. And last Saturday, one of them did.
Mistermix at Balloon Juice responded to a New York Times op-ed by the conservative columnist Ross Douthat in which Douthat wrote:
If overheated rhetoric and martial imagery really led inexorably to murder, then both parties would belong in the dock. (It took conservative bloggers about five minutes to come up with Democratic campaign materials that employed targets and crosshairs against Republican politicians.) When our politicians and media loudmouths act like fools and zealots, they should be held responsible for being fools and zealots. They shouldn’t be held responsible for the darkness that always waits to swallow up the unstable and the lost.
Mistermix's response:
The final fallacy in these two paragraphs is the straw man that people are holding Republicans responsible for the actions of the killer in Tucson. No, they aren’t. We’re saying that the whole climate of the past couple of years stinks, and that it’s time to tone it down.
Leave a Comment:
Don't think of it as discouraging political discourse. Think of it as respecting an opposing opinion and promoting civil discourse. Or is that too much to ask anymore? Not just Morrissey or the right. If you read the comments on the Delay conviction you see some inappropriate comments about what should happen to him! ENOUGH!
Given the cage full of howler monkeys flinging poo that we appear to be around here (Note: If I were a betting man I'd bet that I'm guilty, too.) I'd say, no, we're not capable of that.
Then we're screwed, because anyone with half a brain won't put up with this crap! Too many better ways to spend your time and use your talents than having yourself and your family defamed or threatened!
But, clearly, it's the Internet and we're all therefore very, very bored.
Just because you have the right to say something doesn't mean you should. Stop, take a deep breath, read what you write and think next time before you click "Post Comment"...you might surprise yourself and not go through with it.
THis so call heated rhetoric did not start over the last couple of years! Anyone who thinks that is a fool and hippocrat.
Bush endured it for at least 5 or 6 years!!
Wasn't it Cheney who told Sen Leahy "go "f" yourself" on the Capitol floor?
Go back and read some of the quotes of Spiro Agnew.
John. And Clinton for eight years prior to that. Whats your point?
Bush earned it. The guy had it pretty good the first year or so...
Apparently it costs less to assemble a bunch of pundits around a table to shout over each other, hurling half baked truths, then it is to hire real journalists to investigate issues and present the facts. This is where the problem really lies: the focus on "politics" over the substance of politics. The swiftboating of candidates, the negative ads, the spin rooms, it's all out of control and its hurting our democracy.
Amy. I second that.
Absolutely it is.
You have the right to say whatever you want, and we have the right to point out the consequences of your intemperate rhetoric, such as Saturday's events
It is amazing to watch and listen to the pundits fall over themselves, excusing the hateful rhetoric from the teabaggers. It is not a question as to whether Saturday's tragedy was a direct result of that hate, but if it debases the whole society.
The knee-jerk reaction from the left, seeking to exploit this tragedy for political gain, was and is beneath contempt. There is no excuse for it-none- and will, in fact, come back to haunt them.
Posters on this board, even today, had no compunctions about labeling Loughner a Palin acolyte, a TEA party activist, or. Beck follower- despite the lack of any evidence. Outright lies were presented at truth, as we were told that Loughner referenced Palin on his Facebook page. The fact that no such thing existed deterred them not at all.
In the instant, I believe that such reactions were, in fact, knee-jerk. However, when the facts arose- that this individual had been spiraling down into mental disease; that he had been forced to withdraw from college until he presented a certificate of mental health from a competent professional that he posed no threat to himself or others- then, I believe, the finger-painting became a diversionary tactic.
No one wants to address laws that protect the rights of the mentally disturbed from being forced to receive evaluation and/or treatment.
This is not the first such incident. Why not address the issue honestly, and make strides toward having it be the last? I have no doubt as to the good intentions of those who have drafted those laws, nor of those who brought lawsuits to have such laws implemented, but the unintended consequences are too dire to ignore.
There were people in authority- namely, school officials- who witnessed his erratic, dangerous behavior and outbursts. Their hands were tied by well meaning laws that, unfortunately, do not protect society from individuals too ill to know that they are in need of help.
That is the discussion we SHOULD be having.
If anything, we should be banning the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Dangerous thing, that - nasty little Austrian tome questioning the validity of verbal speech...
Mind you, Joe, as a counter to your comment regarding the left's demonizing of conservatives, I've seen plenty of reprehensible blathering from right-leaning posters positively giddy about the perceived leftist views Jared Loughner possessed. Is it any less disgusting to have someone bearing the badge of the GOP listing the views of an assassin, point-by-point, which mesh with leftist philosophy for the sole sake of scoring points?
Never have I seen so many vultures so eager to desiccate a corpse already striped and picked clean.
That aside, there only a handful of things I really care about regarding this weekend's shooting. I want Rep. Giffords to achieve a full and complete recovery, no matter how remote that likelihood. My heart goes out to the families and friends of those who were killed and wounded in the attack. Quite fervently I want to see Loughner punished appropriately for his actions.
I've no interest to wax philosophical more'n I have on any of the petty viciousness hurled over the ramparts.
No more knee-jerk then the response of the rightwingers and the pundits who supported them. As they scramble to defend the indefensible behavior of people talking about second amendment remedies.
Will you provide equal condemnation of the Right Wing that wants to slam him as a liberal based on a single shred of evidence because, "Well, a classmate of his SAID he was Liberal Pothead"?
You want to know what's 'beneath contempt'?
Someone who continually comes here and spreads blatantly false information about our President.
And, when called out of it refuses to either acknowledge it or refrains from continuing to do so!
Feisty. Well said.
No one should be exploiting this tragedy, X. D. No one, left or right. It is beneath contempt.
Of course i pray for the victims, all of them.
I live in an area of the country that was savaged by a similar societal failure. A nine year old boy was raped and murdered by a sixteen year old who was forced to withdraw from his prep school, whose parents, on the recommendation of a competent psychiatrist, tried to have their son involuntarily committed, but were refused by a Superior court judge whose hands were tied by the law, which states that he could not be committed against his will because he was sixteen, and competent to speak for himself.
The rape and murder took place two days later.
The laws have not changed.
This tragedy could have been prevented if Loughner were forced to have a psychiatric evaluation, and if that evaluation had shown him to be dangerous enough to be involuntarily committed.
The law as it stands only allows for involuntary commitment AFTER an individual has endangered himself or others.
In the light of this most recent tragedy, can anyone still defend the protection of such "rights"?
Joe. There is a differance between exploiting a tragedy, and learning lessons from one. I hope in future people will not talk about second amendment remedies, if they are not successful in an election.
Thanks Patrick!
OH! The irony of a pathological serial liar telling someone they are 'beneath contempt' lol!
For someone who rails against Government - imagine the chuckle I'm having listening to her wail about laws needing to be changed!
no joe, no bo, nj
I can't believe some of the post left here today, some on the left are saying this is Rush, Glenn beck and sarahs fault, that is just plain stupid No Jo, Like they can control what people do from what they say. Joanna pissed me off on the first though, saying that liberal are trying to gain politicilty from this, How stupid, almost every post here today was just plain stupid.
i though today would be a day with out politics, to reflect on the tragety, six peolle were killed,
I read the BIo on this elderly couple, they were married for 50 years, when the gun fire started, the husband tired to cover his wife from gun fire but she was killed.
i thought today would be the one day when Liberals and concertives would come together and agree that the political redheric from EACH side is what caused this, but no just more finger pointing.
your post was the only one giving a update on the second person of interest, that is whats important, not what sarah said 5 months ago or what the president said during the election or what glenn said yesterday, No Jo that is not important, for me what important is that i hope this shooting will not cause our lawmakers to be afraid to connect to voters, that all this lady was trying to do. something the tea party, democrats and republican voters want there reps to do.
Jeff, you give me hope for a suffering humanity. It is always heartening to me that you and I, from opposite ends of the spectrum, can converse on subjects, correct each others misapprehensions, and remain respectful to each other.
I wish I could say the same for every poster on this board. . .
Lord. jeff's an emotional little b!tch of a man who can't spell or think. Why would he come to a political blog and expect it to be a day without politics?
Yeah kind of like someone gets on here and blames the Government for 9/11, oh yeah it was also released that this freak in Tucson also had this belief. Like I said, you're one step behind, you have the anger, rants, and the thought process. Don't belive me, re-read your post, maybe that 40W light bulb might shine bright!!
Paul-977599
Lord. jeff's an emotional little b!tch of a man who can't spell or think. Why would he come to a political blog and expect it to be a day without politics?
I may not be able to as you say spell or think, but at least I'm not the Ass wipe you are, if you met me, you would see whos the bitch!!!! Bitch!!!!
See how emotional both of you are. Try some Midol.
Paul-977599
See how emotional both of you are. Try some Midol.
Midol, well it sound like you have used in the past, i guess this is why your such a ass wipe, don't worry your male period will end in 4 days and you can go to just being a regulas ass wipe.
Still can't think, or write in English, emotional little b!tch.
None of us wants to infringe on free speech, but it is the responsibility of those we elect, those who have the microphones, those politicians present and past to consider that their words have consequences; it is their responsibility to set the tone and refrain from the vitriol we have seen the past three years. Free speech is one thing, allowing speech to become nothing but hate with violent innuendo is not acceptable speech. It is illegal to yell fire in a theater for a reason. Just because the 1st Amendment allows it, does not make acceptable to say. Standing on a corner advocating violence, a person would be arrested for inciting a riot. Some of the political rhetoric has been suggestive of violence, why is that acceptable just because its politics?
Exactly right, Jody. Here is what no jo is unable to take in: With every right you have in this nation, you have an equal responsibility. Rights do not come without responsibility, or we would have anarchy. no jo, in her zeal to deflect blame from those who are responsible for the current heated political atmosphere forgets that, or did not know it. Those on the national stage have more of responsibility than the average citizen to be mindful of the duty they owe. No one should have to be fearful because some right winger thinks it is clever to use cross hairs on a public blog.
It is the microphone, the website, the twitter account, the television or radio show which is the issue. AMPLIFIED speech should be in a different category from "free speech". Mass media has too large a power to misinform far too many of us. It is a bell that is difficult if not impossible to "unring".
You didn't have to visit Sarah palin's website to see the map with crosshairs on it. It was viral.
I think that difference is important, Paul, and that point needs to be made. The people who do this, like Palin, have an awful big microphone.
It is agreed that with rights comes responsibility. However, I respectfully disagree at those who wish to blame the Arizona tragedy (and it is, indeed, a tragedy) on one side of the political spectrum or another. How easily people forget about the incendiary rhetoric on the left while Bush was President. Just as an example, how would/should people have reacted had Bush been assassinated in much the same way as depicted in a British movie? A quick google search of bush protest signs reveals the following:
Now, I say none of this in an effort to shift blame. I say these things in an effort to open people's eyes that this idea of heightened political rhetoric is an equal opportunity idea, i.e., that the left is just as guilty as the right for the sorry political state in which our country exists today.
I really hope that people will STOP accusing one side or the other, as if that makes any of the things that happened this weekend better. I hope that those who post on this blog will understand that they, too, contribute in a small way to the vitriol that is so pervasive in this country today. It is up to all of us, not just those on the opposite political side to which you happen to belong and not just those who occupy a national platform, to become more responsible regarding the means by which we express our political ideals.
Bush/Cheney deserved all of the inflammatory rhetoric they brought upon themselves by getting Americans killed due to their willful negligence prior to 9/11 and their choice to invade Iraq , justified by lies. If that weren't bad enough they kept subpoena empowered investigations from looking into their activities by switching out the attorney general.
Continue on Paul....talk like that does nothing to move this country forward.
I'm sure that some on the right will say that (insert name here) deserves inflammatory rhetoric because they brought it upon themselves by doing (insert political action here).
And so it goes, on and on and on....
You seem to have missed the point, likely deliberately. Loughner had some "crazy" beliefs about currency and mind control and government and apparently zionism. When government drops the ball so badly whether it be 9/11 or Gramm-Leach-Bliley and the predicted bubble and collapse that followed, and these failures aren't followed up with investigations with subpoena power, prosecutions for dereliction of duty, and convictions for the guilty parties which must exist, but instead all of it is swept under a rug: people will begin to embrace "crazy" theories about what is "moving the country froward".
All that matters with this discussion is this: there were people, predominately on the right, making irresponsible statements using violent imagery against their opponents. There is NO EXCUSE for that EVER. These same people are constantly running off at the mouth about personal responsibility. It is time for them to take responsibility for the heated political discourse they have fostered. If they don't....they need to sit down and shut up and let more responsible candidates run.
Hmmmmmmmmm Olbermann comes to mind of running off at the mouth, but I'm sure that's alright for him to do so since he's a hero of yours. Look in the mirror, it's both sides and if you don't think it is, that's your problem.
Citation required, Paul. When has Olbermann advocated violence against political opponents? Grow up.
And the blame game continues....
Nobody on the left has EVER done or said anything wrong. It is entirely the fault of the right.
Grow up. This is not a game to be won or lost, necessitating the keeping of points.
Until people are ready to grasp the fact that (gasp) their side does just as much to destroy civility in politics as the other, nothing will change.
And THAT is truly tragic.
We apologize and strive to do better at controlling ourselves. You say you're not to blame for anything and shouldn't have to apologize or adjust your behavior. Very mature.
Newsday,
here is a link of the map used by the Democrat leadership council in 2004, since this was before Sarah palin ever hit the national Political Scene. We can then assume that it is the Democrats that first started puttting Targets on Maps of Republicans they wanted to take out.
http://usactionnews.com/2011/01/democratic-leadership-council-had-target-map-in-2004/
What is really Evident is that the Leftwing Progressive liberals are so upset that thier Messages is Failing. The country is so Against what the Leftwing liberal Progressives are pushing on America that the Left wing liberal progressives will stop at nothing to try and Blame Republicans.. It wont work. we are on to you.
Bullseyes are targets. Crosshairs are indicative of sniper fire. If you don't see the difference, it is because you are working hard not to see it.
Since this tragedy I have listened to both sides trade accusations about whose rhetoric is more responsible. There is indeed blame to go around on both sides but no one can seriously argue that the liberals or Democrats incited violence anywhere near as toxic a brew as that concocted by the Republican Tea Party since 1/20/09. And the notion that this was the action of a lone, deranged actor that cannot be attributed to political motive or a political party is utter nonsense. It is unlikely that there will ever be a perpetrator of this type of violence that acts at the clear behest of a political party. Or who, like the Watergate perpetrators, had connections to the White House and Nixon via lawyers and other mutually connected persons. So, the fact that he may be mentally impaired cannot be used to deny a political nexus or used as an excuse to absolve political leaders, factions or parties of their responsibility to engage in respectful dialog and discourse.
When terrorist acts are committed we don't dwell on the mental acuity of the perpetrators. We dismiss them and their ideology and focus our efforts on hunting down the masterminds of the specific act or those engaged in masterminding future attacks or those whose inflammatory, incendiary speech and actions have the tendency to influence others to inflict harm. A terrorist act was committed on Saturday in Tucson. Plain and simple. Yes, the man appears to have been mentally impaired but that does not negate the possibility that, like any lone or organized terrorist, he acted in a toxic environment that reinforced some baseless, heated rhetoric that ultimately influenced, indeed, compelled him to act.
This toxic environment has its genesis in the political boxing ring, but for some time now it has been gleefully promoted by a willing media acting more like Don King than Larry King. Every Palin utterance, tweet, or simpleton missive is given credence when it should be dismissed for its inanity or remain unreported. Rather than report the true facts of healthcare reform benefits the media opted for the sensational effects and media one-upmanship of incessantly reporting the anger, anarchy and sheer falsehoods under the guise of "news". To be blunt, the media, like the Tea Party has been equally culpable in whipping up the frenzy of fear, demonization and demagoguery to the delight and benefit of the Republican party. Our plea for a toned-down rhetoric among political factions is justified. Our demand for the media's return to substance and professionalism rather than vitriol and sensationalism should be no less strident.
How appropriate this article and blog are.
I am sitting here with Ed Schulz on in the background, don't ask me how it happened I was watching HardBall and then it just was there
Ed is the poster child for liberal rhetoric as some of the clowns on Fox are for conservtive rhetoric and we need a lot less of all of them
We need civil discourse, problem solving and respect for each other to move our country forward.
Name calling, hate speech, political metaphors that include violence, and partial truths to fir a parties message have no place in a civilized society and I think we are a civilized society.
Just my opinion
You know Robert, I agree with you. I am a lib and I can't stand it when the left news media demands that everything is their way or the highway. I think that they are trying to counter FOX News but I would prefer just putting the facts out there. I like listening to NPR when they are discussing a subject in detail from experts in the field or researching information on subjects. I think we need more real analysis and less grand standing in our news. It gets old just throwing barbs at the other side. Our nation needs to start thinking about finding constructive solutions to issues if we are to continue to compete in the world. We need more intelligent thinkers who do not have an agenda going in. It is too bad when political agendas stifles good ideas, no matter where they come from.
Robert, don't waste time listening to Chris Tingle.
Allright Dems, where is that movie of "The Assassination of President George Bush"?
Paul 977599, Paul crosshairs was first used by Beckel, your Democratic strategist, Go and research and
recently by your local kooks Daily KOS. By the way what does KOS stand for?
Beckel didn't get a Republican congressman shot, nor those around him killed. Did Beckel run for vice president?
Beckel should apologize for using the crosshairs to depict political "targets'.
Paul, what about President Bush killing 3000 Americans and Leftie movie of his assassination and the years of abuse by the Left and Dems to kill him, he is Hitler etc , etc
JuvenileB!tchen: Cheney killed 2979 American civilians on 9/11, Bush covered it up and lied us into a war with Iraqis who had nothing to do with 9/11. They both failed to capture Bin Laden when they had him surrounded at Tora Bora. They stole their way into office twice, and have set our country on a course to economic disaster for the majority of us, all the while enriching their friends and families. Bush/Cheney are easily the equivalent enemy of the people of the United States, the 98% of us who value country over money anyway, as Hitler ever was. You are aware that Prescott Bush was a Hitler supporter, right?
Paul-977599, Never before has a sitting President like Bush been made a target of a movie called, "Assassination of President Bush" If a movie calling for the "Assassination of Obama" was made you and the Dems and Lefties would be calling for the head of those concerned.
Now that Loughner is a Leftie, I don't hear the cacophony of lies accusing the Conservatives. They suddenly seem silent. And Lefties don't twist and turn my words for your benefit.
It gets me that the right wing had 10 or 15 years of Rush and others before the left got MSNBC and blogs. It was ok to dehumanize Democrats for all of those years. When the Democrats started to fight back it was NOT ok. I think to the extremist GOP it is NOT ok for Democrats to fight back. I think that most left of center Americans would cool down if the right wing would do so.
Well said, Ralph.
Hmm
Say Dems and Lefties, I thought that talk radio had the most shows. Now, I'm learning that NPR has a
1000 or more stations nationwide. There is more NPR than NTR. Come Dems explain that.
Loughner smoked dope etc
Loughner possessed the Commie Manifesto
Loughner was a volunteer for Giffords campaign
Loughner stalked her meetings.
Loughner ran traffic stop. Policeman failed to arrest him
Loughner bought a gun
Loughner planned assault on Giffords campaign.
Loughner was a Leftie.
Hey Dems jump to your own conclusions.
Come Dems and Lefties, Bring back the Mental Asylums that Kennedy dissolved and put all the loony tunes
inside. Including yourselves. All the countries of the world have these abnormal people locked up or
quarantined until they feel better. No, but instead in the US we have them in the schools, universities,
shops, subways, streets running stop lights, buying guns, smoking dope from other countries. And I don't
blame them. Most of their parents are just as loony as them. A legacy of the Sixties when the world
turned tupsy turvy.
The Left carried out a barrage of propaganda against Conservatives. They failed.
Loughner proved to be one of their own ilk.
Anger over a lost election brought out the worst of the Lefties.
The rest of the American society is in the grip of the Lefty social programs but what is stopping them is
NTR( National Talk Radio ) It's a bulwark of Democracy and free speech. Worst yet no one is listening to
NPR ( National Pravda Radio) nor to Chris Tingle and the others.
Obama and the Dems got a shell lacking in the last elections.
Now , the Lefties and the Dems shell lacked themselves.
Dems and Lefties, Now who are using deadly rhetoric? What about that Dem guy Fuller with the camera?
Although he was wounded, and he has my sympathy, he had no right to tell a Tea Party member that
'youre dead' Now , he is in the hands of the police. If this was a Tea Party member doing this, the
airwaves, the Blacks and the news media would have been all over this , how the Tea Party are terrorists
etc. Nice silence Dems.
Well well Huffinton Post, So you are denying one of your own. I'm sure there is a copy of the Communist
Manifesto tacked up on one of your walls. I know all socialists know it by heart before they go to work like
the Lord's Prayer.
Gun Control Libs? What about Lunatic Control. We really need that. But how can we control lunatics when
they are the lunatics?