Why Do We Keep Killing Our Good People?

There is little to no doubt that Jared Loughner was a Tea Partier and mentally ill. That is well documented in his personal history and his on-line videos. Pima County Sheriff Dupnik’s comments were very telling as he pointed to the vitriolic political rhetoric that has consumed the country. He said, “Arizona is a mecca for prejudice and bigotry.” He understood that words can kill people.

But apparently not everyone can connect the dots, even when placed close together. Sarah Palin listed Giffords’ seat as a top target in the midterm election. The Tea Party challenger Jesse Kelly, at a fundraiser held during the campaign, urged supporters to help remove Giffords by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle. Yesterday Kelly’s spokesman couldn’t see the connection between Kelly’s comments and the shooting. Now the spokesman called the shooter, “just a deranged individual.”

Sheriff Dupnik knows why we keep killing our good people. Anger, hatred, intolerance, and bigotry are the underlying symptoms. Words like “taking back our country” and “tearing down the government” are phrases spewed by the Tea Party, amplified by Fox News, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and read on right-wing websites.

We keep killing our good people because guns are more important than the exchange of ideas. We keep killing our good people because when you have a poverty of ideas, the only recourse is to destroy the source of rational thought. It is not an accident that we have right-wing militia groups, people who call themselves patriots: groups like the Minutemen, Oathkeepers, KKK, and the John Birch Society—All financed by wealthy businessmen. We keep killing our good people because bigotry, intolerance and fear have led us to become a violent nation.

Sister Sarah has been very quiet on this tragedy, other than 'tweeting' her condolences!

Ron,

Post that link that this freak was a TEA Partier? Better yet post any link that he belonged to ANY Party? It amazes me that facts are coming out and you people STILL blame a political party? WOW!!!

Read and educate yourself. You people are about two steps behind this nut case.

One of the Palin's camp mouthpieces now claims they are surveyor tools and not cross hairs. If so why let us believe other wise for 2+ years? And why did she take that map with the cross hairs off her site minutes after the shooting?

I has been widely reported that the last three years have been filled with violence based rhetoric. More so than any other time in this Nations History. This has to stop and those doing it need top be held accountable.

There is little to no doubt that Jared Loughner was a Tea Partier and mentally ill.

It's a good thing we have sanctimonious liberals like this to tell us the facts. Liberals of course know everything, see everything, and feel everything. They are the smartest people in the world, well, at least in their own tiny little minds.

I don't know what we'd do with out them.

There is evidence that was on his own web site that supported many of the tea party ideas. It was taken down I believe shortly after the shooting, but if you google it I think there are copies floating around. While we do not know for certain if he was a registered Tea Party member, if it walks like a duck, squawks like a duck it is probably a duck. Time will sort this out.

All we know for sure is that he was mentally unbalanced.

Sister Sarah has been very quiet on this tragedy, other than 'tweeting' her condolences!

Well, yeah. Maybe that's the appropriate thing to do at the moment. You know, the thing that civil and respectful people do during these times.

But for Leftwingers, it seems a time to make up lies and attack their enemies. No different from any other time really. Never let a tragedy go to waste, right Libs?

........Isn't THAT special?

Really, Paul? You don't get away with being disingenuous on this one. Which end of the political spectrum is preaching that the current Administration is intent to take away our liberties? Which end of the political spectrum is fanning fears of an impending monetary collapse.

Are you willing to explain all this to the classmates of 9 year old Christina-Taylor Green?

Language has consequences.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Breaking News: AZ Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords has been shot at close range (possibly in the head) ...

......but it WAS only a matter of time before something like this happened thanks to the frenzy the right has been whipped into

#4 - Sat Jan 8, 2011 2:01 PM EST

First thing out of your mouth, before you knew one thing - blaming the right. And then another 20-25 more posts of obsessive hatred and vitriol for good measure. For example:

Please enlighten us NJNB after 3 years of your daily vicious rantings against President Obama and the Democratic party... are you FINALLY satisfied now that blood has been spilled or will it take a few more for ya?

What an profoundly pathetic and ignorant statement, even for the Roselle, IL oral sewer works. Demonizing those that had absolutely nothing to do with it, who were only trying to keep things in a sane perspective and avoid the escalcaltion of vitriol and hatred you so decry, yet so vehemently effuse.

The left has perfected the old addage of never letting a good crisis go to waste. Can't waste a tragedy either, Feisty? Pathetic.

Sarah Palin uses a stupid metaphor on Facebook- cross hairs on a map/setting sights on a targeted district. Isn't a definition of aim a plan to do something, isn't a definition of target a goal? Woooo.

Ignorant? Yea it is ignorant to suggest this means she is suggesting someone should be shot. When this is brought up, the left simply side steps and says that there are those stupid/unbalanced enough (not the left though) to take it literally and this leads them to go get a gun literally. Really? Gota link for that?

Regardless, if the left and the media really believe this a true and a real poison, why do they so eagerly buy it. Why do they so vigorously spread the bait for the psychos. Everyone reads Sarahs Facebook? That is where all the psychos got the poison? Fox? Why would Fox poison their girl? Second amendment remedies? How many would have ever heard of that little clip from an obscure interview if not for the left. Who really spreads it?

The left takes these simple metaphors, twists them and uses them ad nauseam in an effort to demonize and marginalize their opponents.

So is the left ignorant of a true metaphor? Ignorant to the reality of their use? Or ignorant to how this not their own self-fullfiling of their own prophecy?

Six are tragically murdered, a Congresswoman critically wounded,....... and you turn to political opportunism, a venue for more of your putrid hatred.

You want someone to condem the hate and vitriol? Yea, I do. Your posts on this tragedy are beneath contempt.

Enough of that.

Bottom line - no joe no bo, owes no apologies. no joe, joAnnaSmith and some others come to FR and express their views and debate the issues. Conservatives beat their opponents with better ideas, better arguments and last November beat them at the polls - not with demonizing, not with ad hominem hatred and certainly not with violence. No apologies necesssary from us.

Excellent thoughts and quotes, US Navy, Ron, Feisty.

Instead of condemning the violence at the time the right not only embraced but defended it, vehemently much like they done since the tragedy on Saturday!

I have yet to see one person defending the attack. Anyone who would defend it should have his or her head examined. Anyone who revels in the attack as an excuse to demonize the other political mindset, as you seem to be doing, is morally bankrupt.

There is little to no doubt that Jared Loughner was a Tea Partier...

If it is so well documented, can you provide any link? Everything I have seen ranges from left wing to apolitical.

When you have powerful and famous public figures like Sarah Palin painting cross hairs on people on her web sites

That may not have been the best choice, but trying to equate an election with assassination is a bit of a leap.

This clown was no more or less of a nut-job than John Hinkley. Somehow, I just don't think the Professional Left was as vocal about Reagan being shot.

JS1, Chef Darrel, sickandtired, Joe in Albany, please feel free to post a list of people who are dead because Keith Olbermann has a "Worst Person" award.

Au Contraire, Bob. Apologies are necessary from each and everyone of the bloggers you have listed. I've lurked and occasionally posted here at FR for years now and each one of those people have continually used insulting and debasing language toward those they disagree with.

No one is saying we can't have a spirited debate of ideas. But words MATTER. Words carry POWER. Words carry IMAGES that leave their effects in readers minds. And that is the point--the deranged and the unstable walk among us--they take their cues from the cacophony of sound bites and words and violent signs and images. The fear that is stoked invades their souls and minds and then produces the result we witnessed on Saturday--bloody carnage. A child murdered in cold blood.

John B, Des Moines, IA

JS1, Chef Darrel, sickandtired, Joe in Albany, please feel free to post a list of people who are dead because Keith Olbermann has a "Worst Person" award.

That is exactly right they should prove it John B. I doubt if the can though
=======================================================

sickandtired-1089442

People who know him say he is a liberal but of course progressives know everything so everything people who actually know the guy say can be disregarded .

According to Fox News DHS links Arizona shooter Loughner with white supremacist American Renaissance

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/01/09/dhs-memo-suggests-shooter-may-be-linked-racist-organization

Since liberals don’t hate people or plan on assassinations of other races, I’d say that’s enough proof.

Those were innocent people. I can't get over the 9 yr old's death.

What about John F. Kennedy, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, John Lennon, and Ronald Regan. All were shot, only President Regan survived. Feel better.

Name a Democratic governor and who was running for VP that had a map with targets (cross hairs) and telling people to "lock and load". Name a Democratic Senator candidate that claimed the Second Amendment is a solution to people with whom you disagree?

You can spin this all you want but when you have powerful people in the limelight as above preaching violence they must be held accountable for their actions. What about Rush, Glenn, Hannity, Fox News all calling president Obama a Nazi, Communist, Fascist, wants to "KILL" your grandma, etc, etc. What type of response do you think that rhetoric was design to bring out?

The right is, in part, responsible for this tradegy, period. It has to stop, and stop now. Own up to your part in this and stop trying to deny it. We are no longer going to accept that. You cannot change the facts of how the right has been promoting violence for the last three years. It is out there now for all to see.

Do you have any SHAME at all????

Talk about irresponsible rhetoric!

We have Ron, here, who somehow has drawn the conclusion that someone who believes in conscience dreaming, government mind control through grammar, a new, exotic, one of a kind bird, who was asked to leave a community college for fear he was a danger to himself and others, who told people in one of his YouTube postings to "burn every flag you see" was a member of the TEA Party.

We have Gingerbread Mama blithely insisting that he was a fan of Palin, based on posti gs on his Facebook page- despite the fact that he had no Facebook page; had, instead, a Myspace page, which, while taken down by the authorities, has been screen captured, is there for all the world to see, and has many crazy ramblings, but NO MENTION OF PALIN.

Rather than the disgraceful exploitation of this tragedy, why do we not, instead, have a conversation about mental illness, and the idiotic movement to protect the "rights" of those who present a danger to themselves and others?

The community college attended by Loughner dismissed him pending a mental health review. It has been reported, and I have posted links to, this very circumstance. Tragically, the school authorities had no recourse other than that- once he withdrew, they were ex obligo.

Why is that?

This individual exhibited signs of paranoid schizophrenia, but no one could force him to have a mental health evaluation based on his erratic outbursts- instead, society at large had to wait until he had actually harmed someone.

Why is that?

This is not the first incident of a mentally ill person harming others because they were not diagnosed or medicated. John Lennon and Ronald Reagan were each shot by such people, to name just two.

Why is that?

The biggest question, for me, is why is the left so eager to blame their political opponents for this tragedy, rather than addressing the societal mores that leave the mentally ill untreated if they do not, themselves, seek treatment. Does it not occur to anyone that someone suffering from mental disease is not competent to seek such attention?

Common sense should provide the answer.

Common decency should preclude the exploitation of this tragedy for political ends. That there are those who choose to exploit it in this disgraceful way tells me all I need to know about their characters- or lack thereof.

So for all you republicans saying this isnt about vitriolic rhetoric... so you think it's OK for a politician to say things like "Don't retreat, Reload" or "2nd Amendment remedies"???

Please tell me that you are not that naive. You can't be that naive to know that it may eventually lead to senseless tragedies by the unstable listeners. If you can't see that... you are not only naive, just plain dishonest... The main reason why rhetoric like this needs to be curbed is just so those deranged people dont act on it.

You say it's a deranged individual... yes we all know that. But we also know the consequences of our words could very well (certainly) contribute to the final outcome.

Go bury your head in the sand and act like words do not matter

Forgive the re-post, but this is simply too important to me.

You are the smartest, most handsome, the biggest, and surely the strongest man in the world. But a little nine-year-old girl will melt you with a smile and a, "Hi Daddy."

She will have a magnificent role in the school play, and she will be a star pupil. She will graduate from high school and go to college. You will meet and suspiciously eye her first date. You will dance with her at her wedding and shed tears as you learn the meaning of the word "bittersweet". None of that will happen. She will be shot dead at the age of nine.

More than 80 people are shot dead in this country - each and every day. More than half are suicides, many are accidental, but too many are cold, calculated murders.

Banning guns, taking them away from citizens, forbidding ownership is not the answer. However, as surely as our founders spoke of a more perfect union, we must look for a "more perfect" answer to gun deaths. We must!

Regardless of the seeming differences between those who advocate for a ban on firearms and those who advocate for gun ownership like the N.R.A., we must recognize neither view advocates gun violence, murder, and massacres. There is a common ground, and indeed it is the moral high ground.

Crosshairs! Second Amendment solutions! Bullets over ballots! Drive-by shootings! Only the most demented among us can see some sort of logic in this. There is a place for intolerance and hatred. Yes, Damn it, there is and this it! What is wrong with us that we allow these monsters to take control of this debate? This is not about liberals or conservatives. This is about the heart and soul of America.

This is about a dead nine-year-old girl who will never again say, "Hi, Daddy."

John b,

Now again how are you relating this to a political view? You might be one step behind this nut case. Don't you use that 9 year old to TRY to get your message across! Knowing what you post you would probably tell her class that the TEA Party did this. You're statement below has NOTHING in relations on what happened on Saturday. You want to place blame and this is your sick way of doing it.

"Really, Paul? You don't get away with being disingenuous on this one. Which end of the political spectrum is preaching that the current Administration is intent to take away our liberties? Which end of the political spectrum is fanning fears of an impending monetary collapse.

Are you willing to explain all this to the classmates of 9 year old Christina-Taylor Green?

Language has consequences"

And yet, JH, you've just attempted to turn this into a senseless tragedy that was caused by LIBERALS. You've done exactly what you insist Conservatives don't do.

Language has consequences.

John B. Des Moines IA: JS1, Chef Darrel, sickandtired, Joe in Albany, please feel free to post a list of people who are dead because Keith Olbermann has a "Worst Person" award.

Wouldn't know anything about Olbermann's "Worst Person" award (Now isn't that a quaint award! Nothing hateful there.), don't watch him.

Don't watch Fox either.

I suggest you do the same.

Paul, Loughner believes the current administration is stealing our liberty and that a monetary collapse is imminent.

Which end of the political spectrum is peddling this?

His beliefs fit very neatly into the White Supremacist mold. Those are radical Rightists, fyi.

US Navy - This is a result of the irresponsible and violence based rhetoric of many in politics and the media

Ron - There is little to no doubt that Jared Loughner was a Tea Partier

Fiesty - Instead of condemning the violence at the time the right not only embraced but defended it

Sure would like for you to provide proof for these comments.

I believe the shooting of my congresswoman was done by a nutjob of a wacko. He was not sent there by the Tea Party or right wing radio.

Navy, while you and the above complain about the rhetoric of polictics today and we agree that it should be dailed back, you and your friends blast away with the same rhetoric you are condemning.

Try practicing what you preach.

As for the Pima County Sheriff, we elected him to investigate crimes, not provide political commentary. He should not of opened this can of worms. I can almost guarantee you that you will see less of him giving interviews.

The rhetoric does need to be dailed back...let's start on this board.

if that is not enough this morning on morning joe pat buchanan and joe scarborough would like this period to be like it was back in the 50's and 60's they did not think it was so bad that we had a president assasinated his brother shot and martin luther king shot along with medger evers anyone can say what they want but once a racist always a racist no matter what you say it is what is really in your heart

JoAnnaSmith1

Well, yeah. Maybe that's the appropriate thing to do at the moment. You know, the thing that civil and respectful people do during these times.

But for Leftwingers, it seems a time to make up lies and attack their enemies. No different from any other time really. Never let a tragedy go to waste, right Libs?

On One hand you talking about civility, then you call Liberals Leftwingers, you accuse Liberal of making up things, you last statement you are accusing liberal of taking advantage of a tragedy.

Joanna, i was not going to post today, seeing what happened Saturday i really did not have anything to say, I'm still in shock that a lawmaker was targeted for assination.

I hope Politics had nothing to do with this, this was a guy that was a nut job, the same as Lee Harvey Aswald, John Hinkely and all the crazy SOBs that have taken a live of a politician, this time a judge a 9 year old and 4 others were killed. this lady was doing what democrats, republicans, libertarians, and tea party followers wanted our elected officials wanted us to do. Connect with the people and she was targeted for assination.
For me the Big Picture and what is going to be most tragic is that lawkers will no longer connect with the voters because of the fear of this happening again.

What has not helped this, people who are not elected officals spreading mis-Imformations about people everyday. for some of us we Ignore is as entertainment, but the people who are on the edge, will believe what there are saying and try to do something about it. telling people we need our country back is like a cancer, it spreads if something is not done to tone down the language.

TONE DOWN THE LANGUGE People,
Please remember As that woman fights for her life and the Judges family prepares to Bury Him, calling consertives, Right wing Nuts, Calling tea party followers ,tea baggers, and calling Liberals Leftties, Libbs, Socialist, Communist, calling the president Hitler, maybe apart of our rights to free speech, but remember this kind of tone has been here for 4 years, its time to STOP!!!!!!

Sorry, the violent rhetoric is connected to the republican/tea party. The "Dots are Connected". Who put up a map on their web site with cross hairs on political targets with the statement "Lock and Load". One of those targeted was Rep. Gifford. Who claimed that the Second Amendment is a solution to use when you disagree with another persons belief? These are quotes from the Tea Party people who have been absorbed into the Republican Party. Stop lying about it.

Taken off the web from Todd Huston, RedState.com:

“A dispassionate review of where we are today would tend to say that tax day violence is not justified in any way. But are future tax protests as off limits to violence if government does not heed the warnings delivered now? Even more to the point does a flat refusal to ever employ violence encourage recalcitrant government to ignore protests safely assuming that no real consequences for their actions will ever be imposed on them”?

”RedState.com is stridently pro-Republican and stridently opposed to Obama's policies, but it is not an "extremist" website. So I was shaken by this far-from-implicit call to discuss the possibility of violent protest: "It may seem ominous, but violence is sometimes acceptable depending on the cause." Huston had crossed a line that had been tight-roped for weeks by demagogues such as Fox News's Glenn Beck and politicians such as Minnesota Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann as they tried to whip up "resistance".

John B

I mentioned FACTS. Please read the comments from your progressive/liberal friends. Not many FACTS there.

JH:

You state: "Because of the liberal attitude in this country we can't do anything to restrain people like him until he does something like this"

The fact is, it is not at all about the liberal attitude. It's about the LAW. The Constitutions does allow our many freedoms, such as speech and assembly. It sounds like you would like to reshape the Constitution to fit you way of thinking. Fortunately for you, "You are still free to roam about the country."

Where was Jared Lee Loughner on the political scale? Here is my take:

Draw a circle and place a tick at the top and bottom.

The bottom tick is where the liberal republicans and conservative democrats reside.

As you go up the right side of the circle, it becomes more conservative until you hit the far right wing at the top.

As you go up the left side of the circle, it becomes more liberal until you hit the far left wing at the top

The top tick contains the far right and left wingers.

This is where Jared Lee Loughner reside.

Ron,

I have read many of your posts, and sometimes agree and disagree, but usually you have good talking points. But to claim that this guy was a tea party person, is just plain wrong.

Because I read stuff from the Chris Matthews on my computer, does that make me a flaming liberal. NO.

This guy was a complete idiot. He is the kind of person that has mental problems does something stupid, and then you all want to put him in category. Shame on you, maybe you should take note from First Read, and take a look in the mirror.

What is wrong with you people! Is it easier to place blame than to simply say that this guy was a wack job?! Obviously he was unstable, and many people have come forward to say that. Is he a tea partier? Who knows. Who cares. Can the democratic party control everything that every person in the world who believes the way they do does? I would venture to say NO. (If they can, there's a whole other issue!) How many of you have ever said to somebody something along the lines of "I could just kill them"? Do you expect that that person will take up that "call" and go kill that person?! I would think not. Look, I believe in alot of the ideals of the tea party and am a conservative. With that said, I can't stand Sarah Palin. I think she's an embarrassment to women as well as republicans, however to blame her for what this guy did is absurd. What she said what simply a figure of speach, not a call for people to run around and start killing members of congress. We have become such a PC country that we are over sensitive to everything. We don't want censorship unless it's in regards to something we don't like... guess what. It doesn't work that way. This is a tragic event, just as any other murder is in this country (which happens quite regularly btw), but it is no time to blame anybody but the person who committed the crime. Everybody get off your horses and pay your respects to the families!

The Pima County Sheriff is another subject of approbrium.

On Saturday, he was on national television on the subject of a manhuntmfor a second suspect who, he stated categorically, was involved in the shooting.

On Sunday, his deputy, in a very low key manner, announced that the innocent cabdriver, who had only followed Loughner into the store because Loughner needed to get cash to pay him, had been cleared.

Disgraceful.

How come you didn't post the the Dems had a similar map to Palin's with bulleyes on them????? Get your fact correct before you start pointing fingers. Its both sides..................

Why does the "political atmosphere of hate" continue? Why will it continue after a brief pause due to this incident? Because people make money off of it and it works. All we have to do is watch Rep. Issa say that "...the Obama administration is the most corrupt in history.." and watch how it works. Does he have any proof? No. Does he have any anecdotal evidence? No. All he has to do is open his mouth and like Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and the rest, just say whatever ugly, incendiary statement they want and all the sheep will buy it. They don't question it, expect facts, dig for the truth...they just believe.

If we want to really push responsibility for the growing ugliness in politics, we truly ALL need to look in the mirror. Its not just the responsibility of those who do it, but those who believe it all without question, who have to make the change necessary to end it.

Jeff - On One hand you talking about civility, then you call Liberals Leftwingers, you accuse Liberal of making up things, you last statement you are accusing liberal of taking advantage of a tragedy.

It is outragous that the Left has begun the attack and blame game, with no facts, with no proof, not a shred of evidence. Do you expect there would be no response to this unwarranted attack?

It seems liberals want a free run at everything, to be able to get their talking points out there, their innuendo, their half-truths/half-lies, and are somehow stunned when they are met with resistance.

Some Liberal poster here pinned the killer to the Tea Party. No evidence. No proof. He just made the connection. How? Who knows? That is down right sick.

Well i think we are guilty of name calling and finger pointing. The problem is that with all of the vitrol spewed about on the web, TV and the airwaves some poeple don't get it. They take it to the next level that must seem logical in their twisted minds.

We must stop the violence. I am not for banning guns or hunting but I am for strict regulations on a national level. Too many wackos with guns for my liking. Six dead (a judge, a nine year old girl) fourteen wounded. Enough is enough!

All of this talk about repealing the HCR as if it was the problem to our nation's ills. Lets start looking to the real problems we need to get people back to work.

Us Navy Disabled Vet - You said it all and very well. There is no argument for what has happened. There is no excuse for the hatred that is permeating our country and there is no value in the divisive rhetoric being extolled by politicians. You're right - we're better than this.

Big Bear:

Thank you for your comments. His comments on You Tube and My Space was repeating the talking points of the Tea Party. Did he ever go to a TP meeting? I don't know. Did he give money to the TP? I doubt it. Was he expressing the talking points of the TP? With out a doubt, Yes.

Is he mentally ill? Probably. I do not know his DSM-IV diagnosis, but he has one. Was his act premeditated? It looks like it. Will he be able to use an insanity defense? Doubt it. The M'Naghten Rule to determine insanity asks whether he can at the time of the crime, distinguish between fantasy and reality. He will likely fail that test.

If further investigation shows he was a part of a terrorist group, I rest my case. If he was not a part of a right-wing hate group, I will immediately apologize.

As for looking in the mirror, I don't think so...don't want to break the mirror.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Ive seen this sign at TP events. Can anyone explain what it means???

Whatever happened to "vote the bums out"...

This is what it comes (in my opinion, obviously) when you get a wack job (right or left/doesnt matter) and constant vitriol ie

cross hair on our representatives districts

Second Amendment remedies

Dont retreat, reload

When ballots dont work..bullets will (paraphrased) (Joyce Koffmann, was set to be Allan West chief of staff)

I agree that the level of political rhetoric has become quite heated. And while I am no great defender of the Tea Party (me being a moderate GOPer and all), it is way too early to assert that he was a tea party member. I don't know many tea party members who are big readers of Adolf Hitler or the Communist Manifesto. By the same token, he could possibly be a member...I personally have no way of knowing. My point is, this investigation is just underway and people need to give it some time. And honestly, even if he WAS a tea party member, that doesn't mean that every tea party member should be branded due to HIS dispicable actions. Let the investigation take place, and as individuals, try to tone down our own rhetoric!

will the anger and hate and attacks from one group against another in this country stop or subside HELL NO IT WON;T if anything it;s going to get a whole lot worse. The Goverment both parties dems and republicans stay in power becuase they pit one group against the other. there is no more talk of we are all americans and that we can all just talk and work out our problems now it;s your a left liberal that wants to see me a right wing conservative dead or a right wing conservative saying well your a left wing liberal athesist baby killer and you should be shot. it's violent hate speech shouted from one group to another that's tolerated as the norm. you have an unemployment in america right now at twenty percent even though your current lying goverment and it's goverment controlled media tell you it's only at nine percent. the congress,senate,and president keep telling it's people oh every things all right,no problem ,go back to sleep as the continue to print money devalueing it and causing hyperinflation. so no things are not going to get better and 2011 to 2012 will be the ultimate ride into HELL!!!! so tighten your seat belts it's going to be a very very very scarey ride for all.

OK Navy say you say we all have to get along etc but you go after just the right with your examples. Where's Olberman in your critique? How about half of those on Huffington Post?

Bush was vilified and burned in effigy for years by your side.

Yea let's all get along just as long as it's the other side and not yours.

All right all you apologists for the right wing extremists, the Palins, the Limbaughs, the Savages, Bachmanns, Angles and all the other crazies: If the rhetoric that spews from the filthy mouths of these disgusting people is not designed to incite, if it is not to inflame, WHAT THE HELL IS ITS PURPOSE?

Crosshairs! Reload! Second Amendment remedies!

Stop your nonsense this instant. There is no defense for this language and there is no purpose for it save to divide the nation and to advocate violence.

"It is outragous that the Left has begun theattack and blame game, with no facts, with no proof, not a shred of evidence. Do you expect there would be no response to this unwarranted attack?"

Well, now, maybe- just maybe, JAS1 knows how the rest of us felt about all that 'death panel' nonsense.

John B.,

Nice try with moving the goalposts, but you're being obtuse. Try again.

But as far as that hack Olbermann, he should stick to baseball.

"JS1, Chef Darrel, sickandtired, Joe in Albany, please feel free to post a list of people who are dead because Keith Olbermann has a "Worst Person" award."

__________________________________

Anyone who watches Olbermann is certifiably brain dead.

He is the BIGGEST pompous ass on the planet.

Ron - If he was not a part of a right-wing hate group, I will immediately apologize.

I'll be looking for it.

Oh for heavens sake, wake up you idiot. Trying to politicize this makes you just as bad as the nut case that pulled the trigger. STOP ALREADY!!!

The news channels need to stop with this, as well. The very idea of bringing on some forensic pathologist to display a skull to trace bullet trajectories was absolutely disgusting and then making comparison with the Kennedy assassination was even worse.

The only person showing proper restraint was one sheriff who said no speculating about ANYONE or ANYTHING at this time is premature and unfounded. Good God, you people just simply will not let up with your nauseating rhetoric and use ANY instance as a reason to carry on, ad nauseum.

First thoughts: A new chance for civility?

Judging by the posts so far... no.

I've had some time to think about this since yesterday and I think I have decided it doesn't matter what I think about this kid's motives.

It's a real shame that 6 people had to die before we reached this point of discussion whether they are the casualties of the political rhetoric war or not.

What I think matters is that people are still more worried about defending their own parties than they are that 6 people are dead and that they very well could have been victims of the political atmosphere regardless of whether they are or aren't.

The fact is our politicians have received death threats. They have had their offices vandalized. Why are we just now paying this much attention? Shouldn't this discussion have been as loud even before now?

We know they all do it. We all know our parties use language they shouldn't be using. Does it really matter who's language is worse at this point? Republicans have received death threats, Democrats have received death threats - isn't that enough to tell us both sides are guilty as hell?

I guess the best we can hope for it that the leaders will do better on their own and LEAD and for public figures to become more responsible.

I'd like to be hopeful about that but given the history on this sort of thing I am sorry to say I don't feel that hopeful about it.

But thank you "First Read" for making the pledge to do your part. I'll add my pledge and stop as well.

Consider any of my previous arguments time stamped and dated before this post in favor of this kid having been influenced by one party over another pointless. Because they are.

machinehead

The right spews hate through the great poo poo Rush Limbaugh and then distributes it through FOX NOISE's ECHO CHAMBER. SOME PLACES CAN ONLY GET FOX.

So you are wrong the left does not have as much media as the right.

The title of this piece says it all.

The leftist rag, the NYT sees this as new chance for civility>

In other words this a Rahm Emmanuel special, never let a crisis go to waste.

This will be an attempt by the handouters to stifle dissent.

Libbies, it is easy, you want us to be polite, civil and politically correct quit trying to steal our wages, use them for your own ends or handing it to the leeches.

As long as you continue to do that we will call you the names you typify, licks, leeches, etc and comment on you morals or lack of same.

OK, no one can provide a list of people who died in response to strong statements from the Left. Fair is fair, I'm prepared to remind everyone of those who died because someone on the Right felt he had the right to kill for his position.

Eric Rudolph killed 1, injured 111 in Atlanta, GA July 27, 1996.

I'm curious to see when the Repeal of HCR is brought back to the floor for a vote, whether or not it still contains the words 'JOB KILLING'.

I think we will then know if the Republicans are serious about dialing back the rhetoric... or if this is nothing more than 'window dressing'!

I'm sorry, but I've got to copy and paste this post of mine from a pervious forum, it's just too relevant!

There are a few things we all need to learn:

1. The right wing people are NOT totalitarian OCD control freaks looking to dominate every aspect of our lives.
2. The left wing people are NOT socialist, communist, Marxist, control freaks looking to dominate every aspect of our lives.
3. You can't take back your country when you ALREADY HAVE IT.
4. STOP DEMONIZING YOUR OPPONENTS!!!! I'm tired of hearing my left and right wing friends and family members trying to make it sound like their political opposites are the baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells! And yeah, Hitler. Every body equates everyone else to Hitler. I'M SICK OF IT!!!!!! I've actually listened to my liberal friends and they're not actually socialists or communists, and I've listened to my right wing friends and they are not actually trying to dominate every aspect of our religious and personal lives. I can't say the same about these TV pundits, but the real people that I know personally don't fit into these stereotypes (thought they seem to believe what the pundits are saying about the opposition).

If we can just learn to agree to disagree without getting pissed off at each other, then the political climate in this country will vastly improve.

Of course Sheriff Dupnik was calling people who disagree with him "racists" not so long ago

USNRT, oh, and Ron, Indiana, among others

http://www.good.is/post/jared-lee-loughner-s-myspace-page-and-youtube-videos/

So, open it up, and tell me where, exactly, you find reference to Palin, Bachman, Beck, or the TEA parties.

You cannot, because it is not there.

Sure, he made a statement about refusing to use currency not backed by gold or silver. You miss the part where he was planning to invent his own? That others should invent their own?

How about the new name and number he assigned people. If you look, it is a squiggle.

From what has been reported today, he had some kind of obsession with the representative- not surprising for someone with what appears to be his mental illness.

I will say again- there are two things to take from this tragedy. The first is that we need to have a conversation in this country about how we protect society from the violently mentally ill. The second is that it is disgraceful to exploit tragedy for political ends, and all who do so should be ashamed of themselves, as they are beneath contempt.

First thoughts: A new chance for civility?

I'll believe you actually mean what you say when you do something about the Vitriol and Hate spewed daily from this blog. Until then MSNBC and First Read you are just part of the problem. The hateful rhetoric posted from the left even today is just as bad if not worse as always. Talk is cheap especially when it comes from hypocrites!!!

JoAnnaSmith1

Jeff - On One hand you talking about civility, then you call Liberals Leftwingers, you accuse Liberal of making up things, you last statement you are accusing liberal of taking advantage of a tragedy.

It is outragous that the Left has begun the attack and blame game, with no facts, with no proof, not a shred of evidence. Do you expect there would be no response to this unwarranted attack?

First of all Joanna, over the weekend, i heard not one lawmaker on the left accuse anybody on the right for this, Not one, if your talking about the Liberals on this blog, well there voice means nothing, Bohner and McConnell did nothing this weekend but pray for this woman, they had nothing but great things to say about this woman, so who.

all I was trying to say in my comments was that this tone we have had for 4 years is getting us NO where, and it must stop, and Joanna it stops with me, you, and everybody else out there on this blog trying to play the blame game, Its ok when it comes to policy, but to try and lay blame on a political group for this is wrong,

yesterday On Meet the Press the compentator kept directing the negative comments about the shooting to the tea party lawmaker on the panel, that is wrong, so stop.

It's always so heartwarming to read an article about the need for greater restraint in political discourse and then peruse it's commentary.

Can any of you see the forest for the trees?

First thoughts: A new chance for civility?

To quote my favorite narcissist - EPIC FAIL!

If you think this page is bad... wonder back to page 3 or 4 and then remind us again which side are the hate mongers?

What a snarling cesspool of nothing but RAW hate!

Hint: It's NOT the left!

This event only reveals the deep division in our country - it doesn't stem from it. A nut best described according to the the media as a psychotic nihilist anti-semite does a violent act and all of a sudden it's the fault of ..........fill in the blank. The division is falling out this way - the right is a bunch of pro second amendment rednecks prone to violence and the left are the poor victims. The democrats are all for calling for "civility" and the republicans by implication are not civil because they want to take back the control of the government. Sarah Palin - the center of the storm is sometimes falsely depicted as having painted cross hairs on members of congress rather than having targeted their districts. For those of us not impaired we know that targeting something requires aiming - therefore crosshairs on a district is not a call to violence. The historical fact of this situation is that the shooter had a beef with the congresswoman that predated Sarah Palin's website. Using an ugly and tragic event like this to silence one's political opponents is too cynical for words. Let's mourn this together without reaching to assign blame that goes beyond those responsible.

usnavy vet and others promoting blame soley belongs to the right...

navy - in post #1 you sold your tale until your 3rd paragraph which utterly destroyed it and told everyone that you made little to no attempt at raeding the first thoughts article

indiana ron - what foolishness to post that the shooter was a tea partier and referencing his internet opinions, videos and personal history as proof. Tea party supporters burn flags and talk about assasinations and ask to be forgiven. I am sure Johnb of des moines would have some deepo sounding words to explain your rhetoric.

yes ron, it was not by accident that our founding fathers took up arms after declaring independence from a nation so willing to trample on us just because we were a colony of theirs. England could have listened to our desire for meaningful dialoge but refused to do so.

Do you imply that since Chairman mao once said that politics comes out of the barrel of a gun the right wing is doing the same? Can't recall any news reports that guns were being used to force voters to vote for certain causes.

You still (imply) maintain that the right has a poverty of ideas and wants to destroy the source of rational thought. Interesting to note on what you imply by this. Your opinion as well as those in agreement with you are the only true believers on what you perceive Americas future to be and what constitutes "rational thought". Seems more likely that you and other FR posters are more than willing to put down non-liberals posters by misinformation, disinformation and condescension all in an effort to quell others from disputing your "opinion". How elitist and gracious of you.

What? no mention of any rich businesspeople that who are out to improve America by creating work for Americans and the emerging markets as well. The rich businesspeople who contribute to charities and medical research and clinics that benefit us all.

Interesting that you end by saying...

We keep killing our good people because bigotry, intolerance and fear have led us to become a violent nation.

Yet you fail to mention complacency, bullying ( both internet and real time), arrogance, drug dependancy/abuse, de humanizing video games and movies/tv shows as well as other traits.

Fiesty, while not in agreement with the conclusion the Chicago sun times arrived at (all the rights fault) or your own that ...

Instead of condemning the violence at the time the right not only embraced but defended it, vehemently much like they done since the tragedy on Saturday!

Really? We (the conservatives, the tea party and some independants) are all expounding on how great the shooter is and how he did america a great service. How utterly contradictory to your last comment...

I do agree with you comment as worded below...

isn't it time to denounce this vitriol & violence and come out of the darkness and into the light?

Just as I agree with the comment from the editors of the article...

Here’s a final point we want to make about Saturday’s shooting: No responsible leader condones violence, but simply saying you don't condone violence and allowing your colleagues or allies to use violent imagery and language without speaking out against it isn't being responsible -- whether you are a Republican or a Democrat

Although the editors don't go far enogh in clearly defining what they mean by "language"

Several regulars to FR have been posting for over two years now that someone with a short fuse and a mentally unstable was going to hear voices in his head deanding someone be killed to take back our government from "them".

Many of us decoded what the "them" was all about. The minute I heard during the '08 campaign that people at the Palin rallies were shouting that Obama should be killed I became worried that some public official would have to pay the price for this stoking of the flames ignited by the heated rhetoric of the right wing nut jobs.

I know in my heart that Sarah Palin, Sharon Angall, Michelle Bachman, et al did not wish this nightmare on Congresswoman Giffords or the country, but words have power. "2nd amendment remedies, gangster government, terrorist in the White House"...etc.

US Navy Retired calls on civility and toning down the rhetoric. Then in the same sentence rattles off every metaphor some on the right have used. How about leveling the playing field and naming some of your party's metaphors?

We can start with Obama wanting to find who's "ass to kick."

How about those lefty Europeans burning down houses and rioting in the streets because the government needs to pare back on those precious entitlements since they are broke?

No, no civility here. Keep yapping Navy. If you were truly interested in civility and toned down rhetoric and holding both sides accountable you would say so, instead its just blame the right with you guys. Talking out of both sides of your mouth as usual. Liberals.

Really? We (the conservatives, the tea party and some independants) are all expounding on how great the shooter is and how he did america a great service. How utterly contradictory to your last comment...

When you can show me one person who denounced the actions of Rand Paul or Joe Miller's minions back then, we might be able to have a conversation!

I didn't hear it from ANYONE & stand by my observation that it was defended vehemently!

The pressure cooker has been simmering for a long time thanks to the words and actions of the right! And unless the right steps up and says ENOUGH it will continue to boil!

Seventy some comments above ours and not in ONE of them does anyone accept one iota of responsibility only the typical finger pointing and name calling we've come to expect!

The leftist radicals will simply not take responsibility for anything. Because of this they have to blame someone else. Their whole world is propaganda, as expressed in this thread, so everything is a chance at political gain, no matter how disgraceful.

The most absurd comment I read was fishing for an apology from the conservatives, when it is the liberals who should be apologizing. The mentally ill man read Marx and was described as a liberal anarchist, yet the idiots on this thread call him a tea bagger, a prime example of fascist disinformation.

I have given up being civil a long time ago. Calling Bush Hitler and a war criminal pretty much did it for me. Since the left never take responsibility, and will always call for civility in the same sentence with "repugs", "tea baggers", "racists", there will be no end to it. I haven't heard Reid or Pelosi apologize. I haven't heard Obama apologize.

The loony left could easily prove me wrong by adopting a conciliatory tone and dialing it down but, as this thread shows, that just isn't going to happen. They are too invested in shifting the blame from themselves to someone else. No wonder Obama is their leader.

For the record, it is the shooters fault, period. My condolences to all the victims and their families, regardless of political affiliation.

In the past 2 years I have read nothing but hate coming out of YOUR posts. I find you to be quite a hypocrite to point out hate with more hate. How does that work? Every finger you point, there are 3 pointing back at you. Rarely is there anything of substance coming from you. Just more fighting fire with fire. Good job.

Jeff - . . . . . and everybody else out there on this blog trying to play the blame game . . . .

Blame? The only side blaming at this point is the Left. I'm just pointing out the absurdness of their position.

The Left wants to defeat the Right using any mechanism they can. What they are doing is twisting this tragic event for their own political gains. The Left has concluded, without one piece of evidence, that the killer was influenced by the Right, by the Tea Parties, by the rhetoric from the Republicans. There is not discussion, no debate, no other reason to continue the talking, because the Liberals have determined the guilty. The whole thing is kind of like the tactics used during the Global Warming debate (remember that "proof" of that and the Left saying "The debate is over"?), but I digress.

How sick is it that the Left is exploiting this tragedy for their own political gain.

Screaminlib...

the quote is from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to William Smith dated Nov 13, 1789

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96oct/obrien/blood.htm

The link is the letter.

AZChzhd

US Navy Retired calls on civility and toning down the rhetoric. Then in the same sentence rattles off every metaphor some on the right have used. How about leveling the playing field and naming some of your party's metaphors?

We can start with Obama wanting to find who's "ass to kick."

Please excuse me sir, but the president wanted to kick ass because millions of gallons of oil was gussing out 1 miles below the gulf. BP lied to us about how much, how soon it will be capped and How it happened, yes the president and all americans wanted some ass the kick about that, your twisting words in the wake of this tragets, I'm sure the congresswoman as she fights for her life thanks you for your useless comment.

Hello, Exodite Dragon-

Good point, E.D.

It would appear that virtually none of the devoted First Read regulars and usual suspects even bothered to read the post that Chuck, Mark, Dom, and Ali put up...you would never know from these responses that the topic was a restoration of civility, would you?

Sadly, most of these comments are typical of the mindset of the majority of First Readers...who, for the most part, are oblivious to the irony represented by the inappropriate tone of their remarks in the wake of this tragedy.

Not for the first time...they ought to be ashamed.

Since Jesus was a liberal, when do those on the Right start calling Democrats 'followers of Jesus'?

....guess that title wouldn't quite work out for the Right who are not righteous, only express righteous indignation against anything and anyone who is different from them. Bigotry is not the following of Jesus!

This was a tragic occurance and is not the fault of people that are talking about politics on either side of the aisle. Toning back and being Politically Correct is not the answer.

This young man was suspended from his college classes due to some remarkable outbursts that had nothing to do with what was being taught. He should have been forced into getting help. Had this occurred, this tragedy wouldn't have happened, or the likelyhood would have been greatfully reduced.

Trying to cut back on the words that can use to describe something is ludicrous.

The USA is built on a few fundamental rights. One of the key rights is the freedom of speech. The call to tone down political rhetoric is usually about by those who can benefit most.

The news agencies calling for less are those that can not compete for the larger share of the viewer audience and would benefit by silencing their competition. Reporters once held to the belief that they were to ask the tough questions to keep our politicians in check. This is so different than the norm of today's news. We have far too many reporters in love with the current situation. The nicer they are the more special visits by politicians they secure for their shows.

The politicians who now stand up and say we need more civility are really calling for less. What is it that they have to hide? The past 2 years political direction was rebuked in November's election results. Tougher questions should have been asked more often. We were all treated to questions about how did you pick the type of dog instead of what practical experience do you have running anything?

First, let me be clear. I do NOT condone what this kid did. The taking of a life is wrong.

That being said, you people are such moronic tools! You are playing right into their hands. Both sides! This kid didn't give a damn about right or left, in fact his writings state as much (the part about labels and the words we use). This was about anti-govt. But you people are sooo wrapped up in your own stupid 'sides' crap that you can't see past it. How sad.

The vitriol is only a small part of the problem. It is far from being THE problem. The problems range from a poor education system, an overtaxed society (physically, mentally, and monetarily), to the govt killing innocents over lies, stealing from the middle to give to the rich, the corruption in general.

You people are part of the problem with this stupid rhetoric you are throwing around which means nothing. At any other time I have seen most of you say 'both sides are corrupt'.

Now they are talking about protection for congresspeople when the REAL protection they need to use is stop being corrupt. When you are corrupt, this is the kind of crap that will happen and that you are 'surprised and in shock' by it just shows how out of touch you politicians are. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AM CONDONING HIS ACT!

I could go on forever with what the REAL problems are but you tools are too caught up with your defending of your current thoughts to think clearly so I won't bother, nor do I have the time, as much as I wish I did.

Just shut up and think and quit acting like the slaves you are.

Jeff...the country also wanted to "kick some ass" after 9/11. But the liberals call the responses to that "illegal" and says things like "those unfunded wars" and "war crimes." Goes both ways...sir.

And a metaphor is a metaphor no matter how it is used. If some liberal decided to put a cap in Hayward's head about the oil spill, would that be justified then? Or would you try to downplay the "kick some ass" comment saying it was only a metaphor?

Joanna,

Her office was vanilized after the health care vote, other lawmakers in arizona have been targeted by nut jobs over Immirgration and healthcare reform consertives as well as liberals

what i find very disturbing is that Sarah palin posted a list of lawmakers in which she has bull eye on there districts, maybe this is what liberals are talking about. i never saw the DNC post a map with bull eyes on districts trageting lawmakers, all a gun nut like this guy has to do is see this and want to act on it.

Joanna, Consertives are talking about the fact that Bush was protrayed as a war criminal, as much as i did not like his policys, saying the man is a criminal is wrong, just as the birthers (remember last week) shoutiing obsenties in the congressional chamber.

No matter how you try Joanna, we are all to blame for this, and untll you, me and who ever else want to admitt we all had a hand in this. this assination attempt has caused Liberals and consertives to loose 2 voices, the Judge and the Congresswoman along with the 9 years old who voive will never he heard.

Again STOP!!!!!!

Hey Fiesty and US Navy Retired....as long as we're citing examples of incendiary rhetoric:

Remember Chris Matthews fantasizing on air about seeing Rush Limbaugh shot in the head?

The Craig Kilborn Show superimposing the words "Snipers Wanted" over the face of President George W. Bush.

Nobel "Peace Prize" winner Betty Williams publicly stating her desire to murder President George W. Bush.

British film makers Gabriel Range and Simon Finch making a 2006 movie fantasizing about assassinating President George W. Bush.

Alec Baldwin urging the murder of Henry Hyde, his family, and ALL Congressional Republicans and their families on national television.....

David Guy McKay and Bradley Neil Crowder, two America-hating left-wing terrorists, were arrested by the FBI after conspiring to firebomb Republicans at the 2008 GOP Convention in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The American Media refused to report the story.

NPR commentator and ABC News reporter Nina Totenberg wishing death by AIDS on Senator Jesse Helms and/or his grandchildren.

Julianne Malveaux publicly wishing death on Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

Obama:“They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”

Obama to His Followers:“Get in Their Faces!”

Obama on ACORN Mobs:“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

Obama to His Mercenary Army:“Hit Back Twice As Hard”

Obama on the private sector:“We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“

Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

Obama to lib supporters:“It’s time to Fight for it.”

Obama to Latino supporters:“Punish your enemies.”

Obama to democrats:“I’m itching for a fight.”

All from the LEFT, I might add.

Oh My Gosh! You people are doing the exact same thing you all claim is someone else's fault! First, there is NOTHING certain about the Killer! He is NOT certainly part of the Tea Party, this is Not certainly because of Talk Radio, this is NOT certainly because of "hate speech" from one side or the other. Those of you that claim this, are looking for Political Advantage, when there appears to be Nothing Political About This!

Feisty,

I'm curious to see when the Repeal of HCR is brought back to the floor for a vote, whether or not it still contains the words 'JOB KILLING'

It better - That's what it does.

And guess what - the minority of metaphor morons who are too obtuse to understand the history of American political lexicon (as well as every day lexicon), the contemptible who exploit this tragedy for their political agenda....

... THEY DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT WE MAY OR NOT MAY SAY.

Navy VET... as usual, you forgot to post the follow of the liberals. Let me help you out....

It is heartening to see so many of Democrat elite calling for their followers to finally tone down their rhetoric.

After pushing the Bush derangement syndrome to such fantastic heights, especially through the use of proxies such as "The Huffington Post”, “Air America", and the actual calls of violence from Chris Matthews fantasizing on air about seeing Rush Limbaugh shot in the head.

The Craig Kilborn Show superimposing the words "Snipers Wanted" over the face of President George W. Bush.

Nobel "Peace Prize" winner Betty Williams publicly stating her desire to murder President George W. Bush. British film makers Gabriel Range and Simon Finch making a 2006 movie fantasizing about assassinating President George W. Bush.

Alec Baldwin urging the murder of Henry Hyde, his family, and ALL Congressional Republicans and their families on national television.

David Guy McKay and Bradley Neil Crowder, two America-hating left-wing terrorists, were arrested by the FBI after conspiring to firebomb Republicans at the 2008 GOP Convention in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

NPR commentator and ABC News reporter Nina Totenberg wishes death by AIDS on Senator Jesse Helms and/or his grandchildren.

Julianne Malveaux publicly wishes death on Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

That's just for starters.

As per your messiah, you really should post BOTH sides. But, maybe liberals are not required to do so. I have not read the fine print yet.

To Disable Navy Vet.

"Here is a prime example of the problem. The name calling and uncivil dialogue and people wonder why this has happened. What can you expect from such rhetoric as written above. Somebody call the FBI and make sure this person does not own a gun."

Statements like these against the Right, have all the earmarks of a one sided political pundit from the Left. I only hope you do not own a firearm. I could say you are "Targeting" those who believe in free speech. Even if the speech is vitriol. One doesn't have to read what they don't want or even respond to it.

Everyone is a pundit for their own side. To shut one side down is to shut them all down. If that is what is Politically Correct today, then heaven help us. With that being said, you can not write anymore today.

When are you people going to wake up? The problems we are facing in America and around the world start and end in one place - each person's individual moral and ethical choices.

The government (Republican, Democrat, or Independents) do not have the power to solve our problems. Violence can never be stopped because you can never stop all evil or crazy people. You CANNOT legislate morality, you create moral people. Most politics is about gaining and keeping power.

Sarah Palin is not the problem, President Obama is not the problem, namcy Pelosi, John Boehner, Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Springer, Chris Matthews etc. - none of them are the problem. We the people are the problem. We are flawed, inconsistent, prideful, greedy, sinful and whatever other categories you want to include.

If all of the guns in the world were destroyed, evil people will still find a way to hurt and destroy others. So what is the alternative? To find a set of principles and truth that when lived out will help people to love and respect their world, including themselves and others. I would bet that the Jared Loughner hated himself and his own life. He then found targets to take his hatred out on.

There is one place in the world that describes the kind of people that we should be, a place that says "God is love." Many of you hate what I am about to say but Jesus is the only answer for what our world is going through. Most politicians say "God bless America" but they don't practice as devoted disciples of Jesus. Most people professing as being Christians aren't totally devoted to Jesus either. That is why so many "religious" people have religion but not a life transforming faith.

I am not on here to preach, but to show you the best way to transform our world into what will keep the Jared Loughner's of the world from dominating our world is to get them to truly experience God's love as expressed through His son. I will not debate others about whose religion is best, it is not about religion, it is about the most dynamic, life giving and life changing relationship any one can ever have.

None of us are perfect, I know I am not, but this world is heading to a tragic climax in human history. Al Gore or no one else can change it or stop it. We can just be ready. Right now, God is in a delaying tactic until everyone in the world has a chance to respond to his true Global Peace Initiative. It is the only way to change our circumstances.

Nothing will change because change requires rational thought and action, not to mention a commitment to the democratic process. The right wing is so invested in its own paranoia that it will blame the left for this (by which it means anyone Not Like Them, regardless of actual political philosophy) and bray more angrily than ever.

At no point did I ask for censorship, I've only stated that "language has consequences."

In March, 2010 a potential tragedy was averted when a cut propane line was discovered outside the home of Rep. Tom Perriello's brother. The home had mistakenly been identified by Tea Party activists as the home of Congressman Perriello. The Tea Party had encouraged activists to "drop by".

Liberals are angels? Oh please!

After 46 posts, anyone who read these will get an idea of just how far this country has gone. On this seed alone, there is so much hate speech. The same people who defends the constitution, now condemn those who exercise it.

Everyone on the left will point out that language has consequences. If it didn't, then there would be no rallies, no meetings, no conventions. Politicians, media and pundits should think about how their words and actions will affect the actions of the sane and crazy alike. The past three years has been the most hateful in this country. If we are truly honest, it is more from the right. On this seed if you read everything, you will see who is condemning who and who is using nasty statements to address those with whom we disagree.

The right leaning on this seed are so defensive right now. The finger pointing is sad. If the others did it, then you shouldn't criticize us for doing what we don't think we did. Five people will listen to a speech and draw five different conclusions. Yet some believe, that the only conclusion to be drawn, are theirs. If there is a red flag waving in your face, it's not red because I said so. So I will attack you personally, since I don't think you have the right to draw your own conclusion.

Fox, Beck, Palin, Angle and others has used hate to drive a wedge and encourage bigotry in this country. Now they run and hide and their dedicated fans defends them. Palin made a hit list. Whether you like it or not, it is what it is. Did she tell anyone to shoot? No. But a person with mental challenges might think otherwise. Rather than admit that this is the case, everyone is demeaned and attacked for having a rational thought.

This is just a sample:..............

It's a good thing we have sanctimonious liberals like this to tell us the facts. Liberals of course know everything, see everything, and feel everything. They are the smartest people in the world, well, at least in their own tiny little minds.

But for Leftwingers, it seems a time to make up lies and attack their enemies. No different from any other time really. Never let a tragedy go to waste, right Libs?

What an profoundly pathetic and ignorant statement, even for the Roselle, IL oral sewer works

Left wingers make me sick.Progressive/liberals need to let us make laws that can stop people like this before they act.

All you have is demagoguery, hatred, marginalizations, etc.And that is why your hatred for them (and Fox and the Tea Party), you know they are winning.

So, according to the right, you win at whatever the cost. Demonizing the President, Nancy Pelosi and anyone who we think stand in the way, is ok, as long as we win. We can say whtever we want, as long as the consequence for us is positive. If the consequence turns out to be negative, I will deny and backpedal as fast as possible.

I will deny and backpedal as fast as possible.

AMEN! Fletch!

They can't run away fast enough and are hoping their feet don't fail them now!

US Navy Retired Veteran:

This isn't about politics. This is about a whack-job who committed murder! We will always have whack-jobs.

You should be ashamed to make this about politics. You are driven by your agenda as clearly shown with you first comment. You only call out those on the right - a little obvious don't you think? Those on the right don't do anything the left hasn't done and vice-versa.

Well, the liberal posts out here today could not have been more predictable. And they couldn't be more WRONG!

This tragedy was no in no way the result of the political rhetoric than has been taking place on both side of the isle.

It WAS the result of one horrible sick and twisted individual and I find it offensive that the democrats wasted no time in attempting to paint this as the rights's fault... what vulchers you are! The victims bodies weren't even cold before you started your vile accusations and attempts at political gain.

Shame on you all and may the Lord keep the victims close to him.

When government ignores the people, or burdens the people instead of working for the people, civil unrest is provoked, this has been the case throughout history and will always be the case. This individual was obviously disturbed and took the wrong path, but demonstrations, protests, etc.. are necessary to keep governments from running amok. Uncivil behavior begets an uncivil response, this individuals problem was not simply incivility however.

To Johnb and independent redneck

post 1.56 by machinehead

post 1.97 by patrick-111...

Post 1.94 by Archzhd

JohnB (post 1.31) - More spin or are you willing to back it up with mainstream news report links? All I have heard reported (CBS and ABC) was that he was against the government, that he burned the American flag, that he was a loner, that he once visited with giffords in 2007 that fellow students thought he was a little off and the community college he recently attended recomended that he seek mental help.

"Loughner believes the current administration is stealing our liberty and that a monetary collapse is imminent"

JohnB (post 1.66) - could it be that no one automatically thinks that a political party is to blame for murder and mayhem.

As a middle of the road guy - i find the responses to this tragedy rather comical.

"Please, lets be civil - we can get along and have honest discussion and disagreement if only the right wasnt so hate-filled, war-mongering, evil. blah blah blah blah" - please note in the plea for civilty, the following slew of insults that inevitably follow.

"Oh no no no, this guy wasn't on with the tea party, he was a rogue man, loony through and through. The evil left is trying to set this guy up a weapon to use against the right." - who cares. Anyone that holds a whole organization responsible for the actions of 1 person isnt someone who's opinon of it matters as they dont care about anything other than smearing that organization. Its not about you, its bigger than that. Instead of defending the indefensable - figure out how to rectify the problem.

If only you were actually SINCERE in your claims to want civilty. But you arent. Most of you are on your soap boxes too busy patting yourselves on the back harumphing and saying "see i was right" when you werent.

If you want civilty - it starts with you. How about in your plea to act like adults and be civil, you DONT throw in those couple of jabs- because thats not very civil. And your simply being a hypocrit in your cries for civilty as your insult someone.

Simplistic statements from the Left stating that saturdays shootings were the result of talk radio or Conservatives or any of the other things they disagree with is ludicrous and nothing more than using a tragedy for political gain. Where was the moment of silence for all those killed by the Muslim fanatic Lt Colonel on the base in Texas? Why did the Left not call for Muslims to denounce the actions of this man?Now you have democratic party operatives urging Obama to use this tragedy to further their aims of limiting free speech, talk radio and the internet. The Democratic Party of today is exactlyt like all Socialist movements that begin as a nanny state trying to protect us from ourselves and end as totalitarian states where we have no freedoms. Dems want you to wear helmet, seat belts and not to eat salt or consume too many grams of fat-where does their control over every aspect of our lives end? Dems vision of a perfect world is the same as George Orwells and all the other dystopian novelists who warned us against a Brave New World!!!!!!!

SickOfTheBickering

Well, the liberal posts out here today could not have been more predictable. And they couldn't be more WRONG!

Mine was a liberal post. Anyone care to join.. left or right? Or does all this bickering just continue endlessly?

If you are liberal.. the actions and rhetoric of your party have been wrong

If you are tea party.. the actions and rhetoric of your party have been wrong

If you are Republican.. the actions and rhetoric of your party have been wrong

If you are Democrat.. the actions and rhetoric of your party have been wrong

etc...

Why is this so hard to say? For whatever reason this kid killed these people, it makes the language our public figures and we ourselves have used no less wrong. Is being right so important?

If it is, then consider that admitting your party has been wrong to say the things they have is what is right.

No more no less. Stop defending what you know is wrong.

Beverly in Chicago

machinehead

OHHHH YES! Leftists mastered the art of propaganda and deception. They control the bulk of media outlets (except Fox, and they HATE that) and so can spread all the hate and venom they like, then turn right around and perpetuate public debate on how the right is spreading hate. Amazing.

No the leftists don't. The media is dominated not just by broad cast and cable. There are more talk radio stations on the right spewing hate coming the great poo poo Rush limbaugh and then distributed through the FOX NOISE ECHO CHAMBER. sOME PLACES ONLY GE fOX.

Yes, the Leftists do, and there is no-one better at it.

Machinehead listed examples of Obama's inflammatory statements (#1.56) to illustrate the hypocrisy and double standards of the left and how they perpetrate with impunity the very same behavior that they accuse the right of doing. You gave no citations or examples to prove that statement wrong because you have nothing and you can't. Period.

You leftists rely on mass-produced lies and flooding public dialogue with your false rhetoric to shape public opinion achieve your agenda.

The Democratic Party of today is exactlyt like all Socialist movements that begin as a nanny state trying to protect us from ourselves and end as totalitarian states where we have no freedoms.

Which party has been shown to provoke murder through their outrageous statements, statements just like yours, Franklin?

October 24, 1998, Dr. Barnett Slepian was killed by James Charles Kopp, who received all the encouragement he needed from Conservative activists;

Who said that political rhetoric is the reason why this idiot opened fire at a supermarket parking lot?

THE MEDIA SAYS SO. THE MEDIA NEEDS TO SHUT UP AND REPORT INSTEAD OF ANALYZING.

A psychotic person, who the police say has a HISTORY OF MENTAL PROBLEMS, caused this mayhem ON HIS OWN.

YOU CAN NOT CLAIM THE MEDIA AND POLITICAL RHETORIC ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS HEINOUS CRIME.

IF YOU DO, YOU HAVE ISSUES THAT CAN NOT BE ADDRESSED HERE. FIND A PSYCHOLOGIST.

Eris2010...

I couldn't tell if you were attempting to find fault with my post or not... but it does not matter. I agree with you.

I make no bones about it... I am conservative in my viewpoints - probably more libritarian than republican... I am in favor of less government.

All that said... my post was not about us vs them... it was about respect... respect for the victims of this one sick individual. It was about not leveraging someone else's tragedy for your own gain. That's all.

Unfortunately there are a LOT of people out here that either can't or won't listen to anyone but themselves. Hence the neverending bickering.

Maybe now you can see the irony in my name.

JoAnnaSmith1

Jeff - . . . . . and everybody else out there on this blog trying to play the blame game . . . .

Blame? The only side blaming at this point is the Left. I'm just pointing out the absurdness of their position.

The Left wants to defeat the Right using any mechanism they can. What they are doing is twisting this tragic event for their own political gains. The Left has concluded, without one piece of evidence, that the killer was influenced by the Right, by the Tea Parties, by the rhetoric from the Republicans.

Tyler, this comment may get me deleted, collasped or bamed for a day, But, Joanna this Bud is for you, your the worse kind of hunan being there is, you have completely skipped over the fact no matter what this guys motives were, 6 are dead and more were wounded. a congresswoman was traget for assiassination. some how you in your stupid, low information, high on drug mind, you have posted twice that liberals are trying to twist this into a gain for liberals, Joanna go screw your self, liberal have lost a lawmaker, consertives have lost a highly respected Judge and familey have lost loved ones, Joanna your the problem, you post non sense, you respond to post with a post that is off topic, and more non sense.

twice today you have made me shamed to be a american, you have posted that liberal are some how trying to get something out of 6 people being murdered. your sick joanna, your sicker than the nut job that did this to those innocent people.

iF there is a god, may he strick you down as you stand, anybody (you) who thinks one group of people are out to Benifet from 6 people loosing their lived needs to go to hell. Last week you compaired MLK to Al Capone, this week your at it again in the wake of this tragety.

Joanna, GO to hell.

No Jo, Retired, Bev, Paul, Steve, Charles, Jody and Fiesty, Joanna as far as i'm conserned can go to hell. I'm sorry to all of you that i have to leave a post like this, this is not like me, you all know I was raised better than this, but she has for the last time shown NO respect for the dead, and wounded. even if liberals, consertive lawmakers want to lay blame, you must be better than that, this is the problem. 2 wrongs don't make it right.

Tyler I"m sorry.

Left wing haters and Right wing haters, you ARE the problem as far as I am concerned. The posts above prove your own hypocrisy. And, quite frankly, you all suck.

This, from the article: But everyone -- combative conservatives, vociferous liberals and, yes, the media -- needs to take a hard look in the mirror, because we’ve all contributed to a political environment where opponents just don’t disagree, they de-humanize each other; they just don’t question those in power, they de-legitimize them; and we in the media just play along, giving attention -- not condemnation -- to the extremes. And what's happening in the new media (blogosphere and Twitterverse), where each side is trying to find a high horse to climb or find anything to grasp to prove their own point, is awful. Instead of trying to prove that one person's form of toxic political rhetoric is more damaging than another's doesn't lead us in the direction of cleaning up this cesspool of hateful political speech that's become more mainstream.

Fletch (post #1.103) - So you are saying that the left promotes that "language has consequences" and you continue on until you say "

If we are truly honest, it is more from the right." then you continue on followed by your 3rd and 4th paragraphs condemming the right. then you try to argue why the righties are wrong.

it would have been more informative and convincing if you had summarized by point/counterpoint comments. As it is, all you have done is try to confirm the argument that the liberals must be right because these are the right wingers replies to posts. What would happen if the right wingers listed the liberals posts in the same manner? Would you backpeddle as fast as you can also??

Your last paragraphs observations are just as easily applied to liberals as well. How many times have we read that...

Bush/cheney are criminals and should be punished. It is all bushes fault. etc.

Boehner is a weeper, an orange man, etc.

Cantor is ...

the republicans are...

the teapartiers are...

She is a witch...

Palin is...

Get the drift???

BTW - nice attempt at spin concerning palins "hit list". As if no one ever used the term "target" or "hit" to set a goal or make a point in a non-polituical way as well, of course it is only meant to mean "shoot" a person in politics. Would you care to expand on who is making a "rational thought"?...

Rather than admit that this is the case, everyone is demeaned and attacked for having a rational thought.

The article and most of these replies are just more rhetoric fueling the fued. It is not a party that is to blame; it is an individual. An individual who seems to lack the mental capacity to make intelligent and rational choices.

So how about you? What choice will you make today? Individuals on both sides of the political world have been making remarks about the other for years. How about a liberal film on killing the then current President Bush? How about a current President that urges Hispanic voters to "punish our enemies"? How about a conservative talk show host calling the President a Nazi? Read these posts and watch how quickly a perspective with facts is smashed with little opinion. This is not a new reality my fellow Americans; this has been our reality. Stop blaming; it is the cowardly, socially immature response to conflict.

But the beat goes on - da da dum da dum da da~

The man was bonkers, there is no connection!!!

Come on people, stop reading tea leaves. When crazy people do crazy things like this massive tragedy, I know some people just cant resist using it to finger wag and try to gain some kind of moral high ground, even if it is only in their head, but you must resist and...

Don't feed the trolls!!!

This sheriff had no evidence about what motivated this guy and he says this? Half the time in MN we don't even get a race when something like this happens----it looks like the only political motivation here was on the sheriff's part.

Sick of the bickering...

I am simply pointing out that blanket labeling everyone is no good either. I have seen some on the right and left talking rationally and stopping with the bull@!$%# and I have seen others on both sides not stopping.

Someone has to stop. Why do we have to wait on the media or our public officials to stop? Why wait on the other side to stop? Why not just stop?

It's not that complicated. If everyone did it... it really would be that easy.

I really am going to make more of an effort to be more civil and less snarky. We can disagree but we don't always have to have such an ugly tone.

This debate over what caused this boy to go off is pointless when you consider that using bad imagery or inflammatory language to make point is unnecessary and wrong. It doesn't matter who is doing it.

Maybe if everyone cared about the deaths of these 6 people as much as they claim to, they would see this as a chance to pull something positive out of it and not allow deaths be so senseless.

Negative energy creates negative energy. Positive energy creates positive energy. The more negative the tone.. the more negative this will become.

@ Navy,

I agree with you - this diatribe needs to stop. Both parties and the media need to stop spinning facts to their individual advantages. And you had me on a number of other issues until you deviated from the "toning it down" to the statements that all issues were created by the right.

Since political time immortal Navy, and you will agree, the two separate sides have differed. Each side has vilified the other, and I don't see this ending. And with the help of the fourth estate, it never will go away.

But in your further posts you really blew it" by stating we all should "connect-the-dots" and know that the Tea Party is responsible for driving this man to do this killing. I must have missed something in the factual news navy, but where do you find this information? If it isn't accurate, are you not as guilty as the media doing false reporting?

This site is a microcausim of what is wrong in this country. We have one segment who will attack any differing opinion, relishing in their verbal abuse of the person and opinion. Some blog member critize righties for commenting on a leftie site, telling them to move to another site. And you have the "pat-on-the-back" group who can't say enough of good things about bad posts. and you have others that are amazed at the information that libbies do find on the oddest of sites, and take to heart as truth, rather than fiction.

But that's I guess is what makes this such a great place to live. Have a great day Navy, it's time to go out and make obscene amounts of money, picking the bankers pockets.

It will never end . . .

John Stewart held a Rally to Restore Sanity, calling for civil discussion instead of hate-filled name calling. The right-wing talk show hosts called this liberal propaganda, even though Stewart said . . . more than once . . . that we are all in this together, and we should work together despite our disagreements. It is not possible to work together when one side is over-flowing with hate.

People want to pretend like the hate speech you hear from Palin, Beck and Hannity have no affect on people. You must take responsibility for calls to violence . . . you must accept the fact that there are unstable people in the world that will act on this. Using cross-hairs and saying "reload" may be taken seriously by some people . . . every public figure knows this.

Are Palin, Beck and Hannity to blame? No. But they show extreme incompetence when they make a call to arms, and then act surprised when someone actually takes them literally.

I don't care what party this lunatic affiliated himself with . . . but the public figures on both sides need to be smarter. Why not push "civil discussion" instead of "reload"? Although, as previously stated, the last time someone held a rally to promote civil discussion, calling for ALL of America to "tone it down" . . . it was called liberal propaganda. So maybe such a discussion is impossible.

And when you have people like "US NAVY VET RETIRED" following the lefty spin like a puppy dog, and citing ridiculous rhetoric as a means to perpetuate that spin, I get both embarrassed and disgusted at the willingness from the WACKO left to try and give credence to these inane charges.

You start off like you're going to be "reasonable", but you just can't bring yourself to use that God-given brain that's sits atop your shoulders.

I implore you.......GET A LIFE!!!!!!!

John B-

"Which party has been shown to provoke murder through their outrageous statements..."

Really, John...is that where you'd like to take this tragedy?

"The Democratic Party of today..."

JFK was murdered by a committed leftist...and, he was exactly the sort of strong national defense, tax-cutting Democrat who has been driven out of today's Democratic Party. Do you really believe that Democrats of the past, like JFK or Truman, would be embraced by the"The Democratic Party of today..."?

The Democratic Party has been engaged in the political version of "ethnic cleansing" to the point that Democrats like Evan Bayh or Joe Lieberman won't...or can't, survive as a Democrat.

In any event, John B...I suspect you'd be far happier with one-party rule in the U.S.

Provided, of course, that the ruling party was "The Democratic Party of today..."

MB, JFK was killed by a Communist wannabe, as opposed to someone who was listening to a legitimate participant in the dialogue WITHIN OUR OWN COUNTRY.

And even for that example you had to go back nearly 50 years. Meanwhile;

July, 2010 Byron Williams is involved in a shootout with California Highway Patrol. This altercation undoubtedly saved some innocent lives because Williams was on his way to the Tides Foundation intending to kill anyone he could at that location. Williams was inspired to kill because Glenn Beck’s broadcasts had convinced him that the Foundation was center of a secret Liberal plot to destroy the United States.

fiesty (post 1.80) - You chose to live a cloistered life on FR with those who agree with you. If you read and responded to blogs other than FR you might be qualified to even have a conversation or even justify "...defended it, vehemently much like they done since the tragedy on Saturday!" What does rand paul or joe miller have to do with the shootings in Arizona and how has the republican or tea party defended or supported the tragic shooting on saturday in Arizona?

You say "If this horrendous act doesn't get us having an open & honest dialog then pray tell WHAT will?" Apparently you have already decided that today will not be one of those days as have past days posts have also illustrated a marked desire to not carry on an honest and open dialog as well unless to a fellow lib poster.

Yes the pressure cooker is on and you appear to have no problem in turning up the heat or putting a brick on the relief valve.

You say...

Seventy some comments above ours and not in ONE of them does anyone accept one iota of responsibility only the typical finger pointing and name calling we've come to expect!

So change your rhetoric.

John B-

Did you even bother to read the post you're responding to?

You've essentially called the GOP the party of murder...

Is that really your reaction to a post entitled " A new chance for civility"...?

I wish I were more surprised...instead of just disappointed, John B.

.............Unbelievable! Welcome to the United States Of America! I am a vet as well and you are either off yer rocker or - yet another Mao indoctrination! You wou have all just be "polite" as the ruthless and unGodly Mao- who preaches terrorism and "confusion" (Confucian - this is what you have)

Reality check. This "kid" (22) is the frustrated result of all the "regulation" - the Beijing Govt. has cleverly instilled upon our lives. Through their "yin and yang" -i.e. "Bush - Clinton" espionage agents- they have all but frustrated our entire existence. Its called Maoism folks. You buy it every day. Look folks - I served in the Army- and if I heard Mr. "Disabled" here crying in a bar? Well - let's just say I would not be buying him a brewsky. He sounds like a Mc Cain Mao! (Admiral Stockdale is the real pow hero - not "Mao Mc Cain!") You all should pay attention to this event. As that is why it happened. We were talking about BIRDS just before. Well fforget that now. Mao preached "Revolution is not a dinner party! It is a VIOLENT overthrow of one class by another!" ... Now you have Sara Palin- Who doesn't even Know a major newspaper? (Mao spies are run through quick these days "cuz I dumb American!") and Joe "The Plumber" - The Mao Spy more like! ... And now a move is made - leaving "Confucian" Imean Confusion .. and "the people" want you to SHUT UP OVER IT? HELL NO! Welcome to America. Confucian is what this is and the Mao is very busy tonight!

Is there anything to be had here apart from disappointment?

We have no traditions for being shameful. Our sports teams trash talk and now politicians have seem to have followed. While all of us adults continue this charade our ....children watch what we do! So then I ask ...whats the point? We want a better life for our children so says adults ...for what? Is it challenging to have 308 million people get along. A challenge ..darn right it is I believe being the ripe old age of over 49. I don't have the answers but I believe it is our children should be present at such important gatherings when congress meets or when the president speaks in front of the press.... 20 10-12 years olds should be present in the front row. Then lets see how they behave. In fact their children should be there. Could you imagine letting children as questions of this politicians, what does that mean, say it not in rhetoric fashion, say it so they understand, it is their country too and they will inherit and need to be shown how compromise works. There is a great video on you tube of such a case in which a very young girls speaks in front of major leaders and says it like it is, no rhetoric, just common basics and on their faces is humility thats says who are we adults, who have education, wisdom and experience yet think only ourselves. Whats the point? If I were a kids I rather go fishing for the rest of my life with my grandfather and screw education for it leads to where we are today in society. Adults are the cause of these challenges and if we don't do something to bring into our world our children so that we have some sort of accountability that they can see we actually do ...then whats point? a must see what this young child has to say about adults ...2 millions hits.

folks both the left and right have their share of fear mongers. the extreme left is just as guilty as the extreme right. Neither is right. neither extreme represents a majority of our citizens. I have seen this nut described as both a leftist and a tea bagger. Each side is trying to use this for political gain. This is reprehensible no mater which side you are on. Lets call it what it is a senseless act of violence by a true lunatic.

Really, MB, would you suggest I treat as reasonable the statement below? It's EXACTLY the sort of language that's created incidents like the one in AZ this weekend.

The Democratic Party of today is exactlyt like all Socialist movements that begin as a nanny state trying to protect us from ourselves and end as totalitarian states where we have no freedoms.

USNavy -Retired - would you come out of retirement and run for office? We need people like you in DC. I am serious. Clear headed, rational, thoughtful minds are needed to salvage what is left of sanity in this country.

Nashville_fan, I've been reading your posts for years now... and I would like to say... just keep it up. U were one of the reasons I originally kept coming back to read here. Always level headed and cool - Civil. Even though I haven't always been civil, it's folks like you and other on First read who keep me somewhat grounded and not to jump on the I hate repubs bandwagon. I may not agree with them.... but I don't hate them.... and because of that I've actually learned to agree with some of their points - as I see that it is sometimes in the best interest of America and we the people.

Now all this cannot be ascribed to talking heads like Hannity, Pailin, Beck (O'reilly has certainly calmed down over the years) who do nothing but promote anger among their listeners; one fine afternoon, I decided to tune into beck with my 3 year old son during the health care debate...unbeknown to me, Beck was going to go on a tirade slamming the table and screaming about how much the government was destroying America... I got mad about why we let someone with so much hate on the air... what then finally got to me was seeing the petrified look on my son's face at what this man was saying. I had to turn the channel as this is not what I wanted my son wot be witnessing. In summary, the political climate we see so often today is not the world I grew up in and would not like it to be the world our children grow up in. It needs to stop. OVER THE TOP RHETORIC HAS NO PLACE IN POLITICS. So Nashville, thanks for always keeping the level head.

Disclaimer: I've seen Olberman act like a mad man too... but not to the level I see coming from folks who think Obama stole America from them.

Others have contributed to a fine discussion too... both from the right and left.

This type of rhetoric has been a part of our political culture from the Declaration of Independence through today; I'm not defending it, I'm just stating a fact. And both parties have participated extensively, although many have likely to forgotten President Obama calling Republicans "the enemy." That isn't something that should be said by a sitting President about fellow Americans, but so far there has been no outcry about his choice of words and how it has contributed to the current environment in our nation.

Finally, in a free society you can not stop someone with an intent to kill; it just isn't possible. We could ban guns, knives, etc., and still people would be killed, and in far greater numbers than this tragic event. This is a great loss to the families of the victims and our country, and we should all be mindful and vigilant in how we treat and talk to each other.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired and Feisty Redhead, you are both very offensive in your remarks and YOU are fomenting violence. Your posts are full of half-truths and inaccuracies to support your agenda. Be careful which stained glass window you look at the world through and stop throwing rocks.

American,

The truth is there are more vitriol coming more from politicians and others the right. That is a fact. There is no point in trying to defend the indefensible. I suppose you would be pleased if I say the right and the left are equally responsible, they are not.

Yes, the left has criticized the right, but never has anyone encouraged or supported the use of guns as a remedy. Also you misunderstood what I said. The critics and name callers were with regard with this seed. The ones that attack are the right. They get personal when they have no defense. If you have a rational thought that they don't agree with, you are then demonized. That's what those points were. Had nothing to do with the Cheneys or Palins like you referenced.

Sarah Palin did make a hit list. Crosshairs over each district, with the name of the Reps listed below. Maybe there was not more damage since there were only two active members left on her list. She removed the list promptly after the shooting.

I see you are so focused on defending the right you missed my point. If after 46 posts I have to do counterpoints, it would be a waste of time. The last paragraph was a response to the last reference.

Next time I will make it a little less complex, just for you :)

I knew it was just a matter of time!!!! All the Sara Palins, Glenn Becks, and Tea Baggers in America are ALWAYS scaring the crap out of people....it's always negative, negative, negative about America...I have an answer for all of them...GET THE HELL OUT OF AMERICA if you hate it so damn much!!! Palin's the one who started all of this mess by placing a shooting target/crosshair symbol on a map right over the congresswoman's district. I clearly remember the congress woman making a comment about Palin's websit...doesn't Palin always say "don't retreat, just reload"??? Well someone reloaded and killed innocent people...Palin is pathetic and so are all the Glenn Becks and Tea Baggers in America...they should just leave...get the hell out of here! I am so sick and tired of hearing their crap...leave! Leave! Leave!

US Navy Retired

That target is a symbol used in civil, Surveying, and Architecture. It would be readily available in graphic presentation programs and Microsoft fonts. I don’t have a lot of background on guns – but it seems to me gun targets are a generally more sophisticated – usually have additional hash marks on the horizontal and vertical and sometimes multiple circles.

I see this “target” as no different than using bullseyes on district locations that democrats use.

REPOST - COURTESY OF THE COLLAPSE COWARDS... MUST OF STRUCK A 'NERVE'!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community

There's none so blind as they that won't see. - Jonathan Swift

From the Chicago Sun Times:

We cannot walk away from this one.

We cannot blame one nutjob for the shooting of 19 people Saturday in Tucson, Ariz., and wash our hands of it.

We cannot pretend that this is only about him and not about us.

Worst of all, we cannot say we were not warned.

For more than two years, sensible people have been pleading with their fellow Americans to tone down the rhetoric, to quit with the demonizing, to end the fear-mongering.

In what kind of country, the sensible people asked, do political leaders across the board not condemn a sign at a rally that reads: “We left our guns at home — this time”?

In what kind of country do people show up at presidential speeches with guns on their hips?

In what kind of a country do callers to radio shows routinely smear those with whom they disagree — beginning with our president — as “traitors” and “un-American,” while pandering hosts say only, “Thanks for the call.”

If we continue this way, the sensible people warned, something will happen.

And now something has happened.

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, was meeting with constituents outside a supermarket Saturday — a “Congress on Your Corner” event — when a young man walked up, aimed a gun at her head and started shooting.

As we wrote this, Giffords was fighting for her life in a Tucson hospital. Six people were dead. Twelve others were wounded.

What drove the killer, who police say might have had an accomplice? Was it the reckless rhetoric of our times? As of yet, we don’t know. Maybe, though improbably, politics had nothing to do with this.

Only in time will we know if the killer was among those who threatened Giffords with physical harm last year when she voted in favor of President Obama’s health-care reforms. We may never know whether he was the one who shattered the windows of her Tucson office. And it’s entirely possible that he was not among those — the many — who threatened her with death after she spoke out against Arizona’s harsh new immigration law.

But would any intelligent person be surprised to learn otherwise?

The safe observation for us to make now — you will hear it from others all week — is that the angry and irresponsible talk that might lead an unhinged person to pick up a gun is common across the political landscape, from right to left.

But that simply is not true.

Overwhelmingly today, the fear-mongering and demonizing flow from the right, aided and abetted by cable TV and talk-radio hosts. They may represent only the irresponsible fringe of conservatism in America, but they are drowning out the thoughtful voices of the vast majority of conservatives.

Giffords, as she showed by meeting constituents outside that supermarket, dared to believe that Americans can disagree with each other without turning on each other.

Maybe that was a mistake...

We don't have to look back any further than a couple of months ago prior to the 2010 elections. You had tea party candidates handcuffing reporters & others putting their 'boot on the neck' of woman who disagreed with their candidate’s rhetoric!

Instead of condemning the violence at the time the right not only embraced but defended it, vehemently much like they done since the tragedy on Saturday!

The genie is now out of the bottle and there is no stuffing it back in! Isn't it time Americans started taking personal responsibility for their words and actions?

If this horrendous act doesn't get us having an open & honest dialog then pray tell WHAT will?

It's understandable that when one lives in a perpetual state of fear demanding change is a difficult task but isn't it time to denounce this vitriol & violence and come out of the darkness and into the light?

Fiesty and navy vet I believe are the same people.

Most likely on some watch list somewhere... oh wait... maybe in 2012 they will be. Currently they are just model replicas of the liberal party. That pretty much says it all.

Facts be damned, lets just spew hate and talk down to people who don't believe what they do. I am pretty sure the liberals calls that racist these days.

I sit here and read the comments written by so many different types of people and the only thing I see is a bunch of idiots trying to explain this in a way that blames another political party. Enough is enough already, people are shot and killed every day and only when it is some white people does everyone start to say that the violence needs to stop. This country needs to start taking care of the enemies we have and not make new ones here at home. I do not claim any political party becuase I am for the people, not politics. Here is a little history lesson for people, democract were the party that wanted to keep slavery legal and the rebulicans were the party that freed the slaves yet everyone now thinks that it is the other way around. How about we stop the childish b.s. and start living free instead of living under a government that doesn't even know how manage the budget, let alone tell us what we should do or what we should have, like Obama care.

Obama blamed Bush for the bad economy. Everyone said no, blame the Democratic congress since they wrote the laws and all Bush did was sigh them. It's all Pelosi and Reids fault.

Now the Congress wrote and passed HCR and suddenly its Obama care That way, it's easier to demonize, like they have the President.

The level of vitriol aimed at conservatives, led by the media, regarding the tragic shooting of congresswoman Giffords completely justifies everything I ever believed about the left. I've never witnessed such a manic disregard of facts like I have over this event. Trying to score cheap political points on the back of a tragedy is despicable. Any conciliatory feelings I may have possessed have completely evaporated. I know now there's no compromising or working with the left. They must be crushed.

Wake up2840

President Obama calling Republicans "the enemy." That isn't something that should be said by a sitting President about fellow Americans, but so far there has been no outcry about his choice of words and how it has contributed to the current environment in our nation.

I'd like to point out that while I agree he shouldn't have said it, he also came back out and said he shouldn't have used that word.

Now everyone else should be doing he same.

We need to hear the same condemnation of use of bad language from both sides on anyone who uses destructive terminology , not just from members of the opposing party but from people within their own parties.

Here is my violin for msnbc and ALL cable news reporters and pundits out there, especially the bleeding heart liberals.

The laws of physics are quite simple - for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The liberal media and liberals are just mad that THEY LOST BIG TIME LAST NOVEMBER.

The same rhetoric that got them IN got their OPPONENTS IN.

Too freaking bad. It's about time. I was tired of hearing what you had to say CONSTANTLY.

fletch (post 1.141) - you will have to do better.

So good of you to state "...more vitriol coming more from politicians and others the right. that is fact" and then blow it off by saying "...no point in trying to defend the indefensible." yes indeed "language has consequences"!

Seems that you brought up palin, fox, etc and now you say "...never has anyone (the left) encouraged or supported the use of guns as a remedy.". Really now? Obviously you need to report these politicians and pundits to the FBI for attempting to incite a riot. Please do keep in mind that "language has consequences"

Your statement that...

"The ones that attack are the right. They get personal when they have no defense. If you have a rational thought that they don't agree with, you are demonized. that is what those points were. Had nothing to do with the cheney's or palins like you referenced."

Unfortunately YOU DO have to do better. My references were about the language used by FR liberal posters as well. IE. to the same people that you are trying to defend. With respect to you trying to blow off not having to provide point-counterpoint phrases because it would be a "waste of time" but yet you thought it was worth the time to cut and paste the comments as proof of the right as always being the attackers.

Again with regards to palins hit list, I see it for what it is... the targeting of a politician for defeat in Nov 2010, doesn't the democrats and other web sights (left and right) use similar tactics with "bullseyes" and cross-hairs?

http://breckfield.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/gabrielle-giffords-shooting-should-we-blame-daily-kos/

http://www.examiner.com/post-partisan-in-national/liberal-website-daily-kos-put-bullseye-on-dead-to-me-giffords?do_not_mobile_redirect=1

Yes, "language has consequences"

No, I didn't miss your point, your implications are clear, the right is wrong and the left is right., but you did miss mine...

Without the lefts rhetoric how could the right respond in kind with rhetoric or vice-a-versa. Yes, "language has consequences".

BTW - be as obtuse or complex as you want to be, your post will always reflect on you, just as mine do as well.

Less than 30 minutes after this horrific shooting politicians and the media were desperate in their attempt to connect the tea party and conservatives to this event. Little was spoken of those that had lost their lives because the focus had to be that it was a right wing nut job that attempted to kill a US Congresswoman. This time, when we had little or no facts to speak of, we were not told "not to jump to conclusions", instead we jumped up and down and pointed fingers at Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, etc. We weren't told to wait for the facts, to wait for an investigation. We were salivating at the fact that it had to be a tea party member.

I watched the parents of the nine year old girl speak about the child they had lost. There was no blame. There was no hatred. Two people who lost more than any of you finger pointers, had more class in the most trying moment of the their lives then most of the posters here, the media and the politicians. Less than 48 hours after this tragedy their were articles written and interviews given on how the democrats could use this to their political advantage.

Of course, now we find out that this man is unstable. Of course, if we are honest with ourselves, we would have called that from the beginning. How does a "stable" person do something like this? One of the sad and disgusting parts is that I'm quite sure there will be a lot of disappointed people; people that were counting on the fact that this was politically motivated.

What is even sadder is that because it was not politically motivated, the real conversation that should take place, won't. That conversation is how mental illness is viewed and handled in this country. Not just by the medical community, but by us, as Americans. We still want to sweep mental illness under the rug. Let's not let anyone know that Uncle Billy is not quite right. Let's just say he's eccentric. Let's not address the problem head on, because people may look down on us if they know that our child, parent, nephew, etc., suffers from a mental affliction.

Until we start opening up that mental illness does exist and teaching everyone the signs, things like this will continue to happen. We all know the warning signs of stroke, heart attacks, etc., but where are the flash cards and the e-mails letting people know what to look for where mental illness is concerned? When are we going to remove the stigma of mental illness from our society so that people, all people, can deal with the problem?

Have that conversation posters, because that conversation will accomplish much more than political finger pointing. Who knows, maybe that conversation will be the one that saves one of your loved ones.

american,

Like I said, I will simplify it for you next time.......

.......If you google : Gabrielle Giffords China .... ..You know ...I can give this "kid" a defense. I am not condoning anything. But the effect of the Mao in Ariz. You have McCain. You have Brewer. You had Giffords. And You Had A kid who had read "Animal Farm!" Mein Kamp ... The Communist Manifesto! He expressed a mentality that that questioned a mathematical philosophy over a literal one! To the indoctrinated American communist? He is "evil" and this passion plays into the hand of maoism. At 22- he became overwhelmed by systematic maoism - now invading all aspects of American life - esp. in Arizona. When I look at the STATE FLAG? It is Not Beautiful to me. That looks like a Mao flag - to me. The Flag is from 1917- designed by a "traveler!" Now this kid snapped! End! A little girl ..and others were victims of the same "passion." The state would do well to try to understand this boy - rather than "make a hero " out of him. If I was a friend to him? I would have told him to find non-violent ways of expressing your frustrations. I play music and write my own frustrations in my songs. Others become directly involved and "organize." My question to Rep. Giffords would have been .."Why are you doing buisness with a COMMUNIST - SLAVE NATION - THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CHINA? I would want to ask the little girls parents - "Are you aware of the violent nature of the Mao? .. Do you think it is responsible to have children involved in such obvious dangerous conditions. Does the little girl have a "pin-pal" in ..say CHINA ..one her own age and not a "plant" .. so she may understand the very serious nature of POLITICS and identify the effect of policy on a little girl who "works" 18 hours a day for seven days! Does she support such policy by patronizing such stores as "WAL_MART" and other Chinese serfdom - corporate outlets?" I feel for all families involved- and I esp. feel for the kids families- for this is the world we are leaving them. My President saw this day - back in 1951. He read the Mao. He noticed the evil in it. A godless brutality of racial dominion. They are here and look just like you. How much more before you call it what it is? I call the moon - the moon - not the sun or a hunk of cheese and there are people in the corporate news media who - if they could- would take a payola check to seed a story that declared "Scientists have now discovered that ,,We had it all wrong all this time - the moon is actually The Sun and because WE say so? .. All will now adhere .. all the comrads!

Truly frightening. Please take a walk outside, get some sunshine and fresh air. Smile at a neighbor. America is great, not perfect. And because of this, America will be fine. Time and again in these posts I read an "Us" and "Them" mentality. How about everybody just try doing something else besides tuning into a narrative that suits your world view. Breathe. Smile. Hug your family member(s) or a friend.

..Truly stupid. This nation was founded by starving - freezing men who would think you are "unworthy" of their bloodshed! You go take a hike in the sunshine- and we will do our AMERICAN duty and NOT do anything people like YOU say. You act as if we don't care about our families? I can tell that I care way about my family than YOU! People like you who are "frightened" filled the concentration camps. They sat by while their "comrads" let foreign totalitarian nations move right in - to enslave their family. I live in California. If you do? YOU ARE IGNORANT of the fact that a move was recently made on our state- and people like me exposed such political movement on this very site by discussing the gravity of the communist movement .. while others were "enjoying THEIR day" ..taking nature walks huh? Let me fill you in on something- the freedoms you enjoy came at great sacrifice. Over fifty thousand of my American brothers lost their lives trying to keep the Mao in China. People like you were taking walks and falling for "the communist press" - actually turning on their countrymen! They bought into Maoism by falling for "pacifists" who were being underwritten by China. If you took the time to read - in place of all the "sunshine" you might understand the very serious nature of your defeatest comments. This is no time for selfish behavior - the complacency that has brought on this insidious philosophy and let it "right in our front door!"

You know absolutely nothing about me. You have made many erroneous assumptions and several false assertions about me, my beliefs and my motives. I stand by my statement, "Truly Frightening". I am certainly not defeatist. I also differ from you in that I am rational, cogent, and objective.

Excellent, IR, the comparison to Afghanistan is something I had not thought about. Somehow sanity must be restored to politics

Amazing grace indeed IR. Thanks for your post . . . but so sad it was necessary.

Thank you Ladies

As I reflect sometimes back on life there are pictures that that speak volumes more to me than words do.

One of them is an Oklahoma fireman’s anguished tear stained face as he cradled the broken body of a small child from the devastation of the Murrow Blding. after McVeigh took the messages that the Militias were sending him to heart and acted on them.

Now I have the picture of a nine year old young Lady who’s only offense in life was being in the wrong place when this poor excuse for a human being decided to act on the messages that he was receiving.

Why does a child have to die to convince people that Pandering to your base is sometimes inexcusable?

No Joe, I agree with you -- why wasn't Mr. Loughner given access to mental health care? Now we see why universal health care is important and why, in the end, we should be willing to pay something for a service even if we don't personally need it. If mental health care, diagnosis and treatment were part of our overall health care, it would be de-stigmatized and people would be more likely to get the appropriate care. As it is, an otherwise healthy young adult may not sign up for a comprehensive health plan and be screened for mental illness. I remember not too long ago when you complained about why should you have to pay for pregnancy care when you wouldn't ever need it -- but we can all see that in the end we all DO benefit if people with mental health issues receive treatment rather than wait for them to actually do harm before we intervene. I am not advocating for one political party over another, and don't want to politicize what has happened other than to say that we are all affected by what a few people do, so we are all interconnected, like it or not.

Like pretty much anybody with any sense of decency I am horrified by t the scope of violence committed by this young, obviously sick individual against the congresswoman and the other unfortunate victims. I've resisted the temptation to post anything the last two days but can no longer keep quiet.

"A new chance for civility?"; reads the headline of this piece. Unfortunately No! The caustic and uncalled for comments of the left wing, so called progressives, has been enough to nearly make me sick. Those of you that are hypocritical enough to call for Palins head are little better than the deranged shooter. Trying to lay this in the hands of right wing pundants makes you sick in your own right. As the facts are slowly filtering out it seems that if anything this cold blooded killer is not affiliated with any party. His relationship with the congresswoman goes back over 3 years when he attended another public forum, like the one where she was shot, and even asked her a question. He was apparently unhappy with the answer he got and commented at the time about no politician "Getting It" .

The country is more divided now than at any time since the civil war. For those of you on the left that assume no responsibility for this division, and spew your own Hate Speech. I pity you for your self-righteous, self proclaimed sense of superiority. But mostly, I pity you for your ignorance, and your your need to lay blame with knee-jerk reaction comments (unbased on any evidence but your own prejudices) which only widens the divide in an already divided nation.

MTpolitico

"A new chance for civility?"; reads the headline of this piece. Unfortunately No! The caustic and uncalled for comments of the left wing, so called progressives, has been enough to nearly make me sick. Those of you that are hypocritical enough to call for Palins head are little better than the deranged shooter. Trying to lay this in the hands of right wing pundants makes you sick in your own right. As the facts are slowly filtering out it seems that if anything this cold blooded killer is not affiliated with any party. His relationship with the congresswoman goes back over 3 years when he attended another public forum, like the one where she was shot, and even asked her a question. He was apparently unhappy with the answer he got and commented at the time about no politician "Getting It" .

The country is more divided now than at any time since the civil war. For those of you on the left that assume no responsibility for this division, and spew your own Hate Speech. I pity you for your self-righteous, self proclaimed sense of superiority. But mostly, I pity you for your ignorance, and your your need to lay blame with knee-jerk reaction comments (unbased on any evidence but your own prejudices) which only widens the divide in an already divided nation.

Right you are there Nubby

I’m sure that the Net is just full of examples of President Obama calling for Liberals to take up arms against their fellow Americans because they didn’t get the Public Option.

I’m sure there are many examples of Liberals joining together out in the Backwoods and putting Pictures of Bush and Karl Rove on their Targets

I’ll just bet there’s a whole bunch of pictures of Democrats joining together in a National Park to wave their shooting equipment around and repeat that “Out of My Cold Dead Hands” mantra

I’m sure that there’s a whole bunch of clips of Democratic Candidates inviting folks down to the Shooting Range so they could practice up for taking out their Republican/ Tea Party opponent

Why don’t you get busy and do you a Google search and put the good folks up some examples.

Fact of the matter is you have gotten the response out of your base that your Cowardly Enablers have pandered to for so long. A nine year old Child has been caught in the crossfire of your pandering and simplistic Rhetoric. That is the Reality that you don’t want deal with. You should be proud to support such fine upstanding folks who are so capable of reasonable high level discourse.

Maybe you need to quit trying to pee this drivel in my ear this morning and trying to convince me you think it’s raining. I ain’t in the mood.

Laughner is crazy. Did the right wing cause his actions? Absolutely not. Did dehumanizing and other hateful speech from right have some influence on his actions? Maybe but I doubt it. The guy is crazy.

This tragedy does give us an opportunity to look at some of the political rhetoric like Palin's cross-hairs or Manchin shooting bills in his adds. But we should also consider the more subtle "us and them" or other dehumanizing rhetoric like Olbermann "Worst Persons in the World" segment.

Personally, I am going to make more of an effort to find common ground when debating and really go after those on both sides that are using grand conspiracy theories or other border-line insane arguments that dehumanize the opponent such as birthers and truthers.

The country is more divided now than at any time since the civil war. For those of you on the left that assume no responsibility for this division, and spew your own Hate Speech. I pity you for your self-righteous, self proclaimed sense of superiority. But mostly, I pity you for your ignorance, and your your need to lay blame with knee-jerk reaction comments (unbased on any evidence but your own prejudices) which only widens the divide in an already divided nation.

Again, isn’t it strange...

A major political party calls for citizens to rise up against the government by using BUllets for BAllots, be Armed and DAngerous, and succeed from the nation? I don't suppose you get that major political party is the GOP/TEA PARTY.

Now my Illinois Rep"Danny Davis recieved an e-mail stating he is next," presumably referring to Saturday's shooting in Tucson, Ariz.

Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/politics/danny-davis-threat-giffords-113177769.html#ixzz1AcR88hDk

I have a difficult time believing a democrat sent that e-mail

I once was lost but now I am found... Thanks IR.

Kate, I have seen some sick and twisted exploitation of this tragedy, but yours takes the prize.

There is no indication, let alone proof, that insurance was the issue here. Moreover, it is FEDERAL LAW that all college students provide proof of health insurance, or buy college insurance, as a condition of enrollment- goes back to Clinton.

The problem arises from a fifty state strategy of lawsuits filed by the ACLU to protect the "rights " of the mentally disturbed. There is a current suit in Illinois that, I believe, is in the settlement stages.

I have no doubt that the ACLU believes that they are doing moral, good work. I believe, however, that they are misguided.

Some years ago in my county, there was a teenaged boy who was dismissed from a prestigious private school based on bizarre behavior. His parents sought treatment for him, and the psychiatrist they chose recommended in- treatment, as he appeared to be dangerous. Unfortunately, he was 16, which meant that he could not be involuntarily committed. They went to court, and the judge, (who lives with the agony of his decision every day), denied the or request, because he had not committed any violent act.

Two days later, he raped and murdered a child.

The issue is not HCR, it is the threshold for commitment, or, even evaluation, for the mentally disturbed. We, as a society, need to demand the treatment of those who present a danger to themselves or others- whether they have acted or not. We need to take the word of trained professionals that they may act on violent fantasies, rather than waiting until they act.

This discussion is not forthcoming- instead, the left chooses to vilify the right, despite a complete lack of evidence that this young man was motivated by ANYTHING other than mental illness.

To twist this into a discussion of HCR is cynical, exploitative, and disgusting.

IR:

Thank you for your post and helping me with my point. This is not just a republican or democrat issue. I am just as appalled by any body who preaches violence and hate.

Oh, I'm sorry, Liberals are to blame that a crazy is out on the street but NO ONE is to blame because mental health care is often difficult to get or completely unavailable?

Since no one on the Right can come up with a name of someone who was killed as a result of inflammatory speech perhaps an example from the other side is in order/

Outraged by and encouraged by Conservative pundits who personally blamed Janet Reno and the Clinton Administration for deaths at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, TX, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995. McVeigh and Nichols were fervent members of the militia movement, frequently cited by Conservatives at the time as being a natural outgrowth of Democratic dangers to America.

Kate - from the newscasts on CBS loughner was not denied mental health care, the community college recommended that he seek mental health help. We all know now that loughner didn't take the advice.

beverly - quite well done in proving Mtpoliticos comment on left wingers

Suppose you could provide a link supporting your boldfaced comment in post # 2.8 the link you provided doesn't.

Or are you just spewing out more vitriolic diatribe?

To Johnb and independent redneck

post 1.56 by machinehead

post 1.97 by patrick-111...

Post 1.94 by Archzhd

Redneck, Is "nubby" a term of endearment in virginia?

Beverly in Chicago

machinehead

OHHHH YES! Leftists mastered the art of propaganda and deception. They control the bulk of media outlets (except Fox, and they HATE that) and so can spread all the hate and venom they like, then turn right around and perpetuate public debate on how the right is spreading hate. Amazing.

No the leftists don't. The media is dominated not just by broad cast and cable. There are more talk radio stations on the right spewing hate coming the great poo poo Rush limbaugh and then distributed through the FOX NOISE ECHO CHAMBER. sOME PLACES ONLY GE fOX.

Yes, the Leftists do, and there is no-one better at it.

Machinehead listed examples of Obama's inflammatory statements to illustrate the hypocrisy and double standards of the left and how they perpetrate with impunity the very same behavior that they accuse the right of doing. You gave no citations or examples to prove that statement wrong because you have nothing and you can't. Period.

You leftists rely on mass-produced lies and flooding public dialogue with your false rhetoric to shape public opinion achieve your agenda.

American………… Just so you know that I do keep up I had already seen those several rather feeble attempts to equate some statements that were (in light of present circumstances) somewhat off color with the words and actions that I presented above today and have before on several previous occasions.

First of all if you’ll fellows think that there is somehow an equivalency between what you’ve listed up there and an elected or prospective elected official actively calling for violence against someone, or putting crosshairs on someone, or actively calling for violent overthrow of our government then the good old USA has a larger perception problem than I thought.

Second of all I’m not really interested in you’lls comments made by various News personalities and so called Pundits. Anybody that pays more than a modicum of attention to those Yahoos’s of either side of the debate and thereby takes them as serious as they take themselves is a dang fool anyway. Heck it’s their job to stir up stuff and I see no reason to waste much of my time in encouraging them in the endeavor.

BTW Nubby ain’t particularly a term of endearment it’s more of an affectionate nickname for what a fellow becomes after he takes a shot at doing what you’re trying to do and that is whizzing in my ear and trying to tell me a thunderstorm has come up.

independent - America has always had individuals or groups of individuals wanting to promote the overthrow of the US government. Just as there have always been individuals who have taken it upon themselves to do something about it in a physical way.

I rather wonder how many bar fights, shootings, assaults and murders have been committed to those who said comments similar to those that you say are "feeble".

I suppose you have never seen advertisments showing crosshairs pointing out the subject matter at hand, or ever attended business and charity events promoting the "targeting" of goals? Please do tell us what the politically correct term should be?

Interesting to note that all of a sudden you are claiming that elected officials and others are actively calling for violence. Better get on the horn to the FBI and report them, right nubby?

Actually in Iowa we would call it more like "a cow pissing on a flat rock". lol!

BTW - nice try at trying to come off as a country bumpkin in post 2.17. You made more sense in previous posts except for your analogy between karzai and his "cowardly enablers" vs those with no name in the US and Americas "cowardly enablers". Rather cowardly on your part to not name anyone in particular that would be the equivalent in the US as karzai in afganistan, but then that would be putting the "crosshairs" on that individual wouldn't it? Better to just imply it and let your own "cowardly enablers" carry out your intent.

Interesting to note that all of a sudden you are claiming that elected officials and others are actively calling for violence.

They are.

Appearing at a "Tea Party" rally Wednesday to protest Obama's expansion of government, Catherine Crabill, a political neophyte running for the House of Delegates in the Northern Neck, quoted from a March 1775 speech by Patrick Henry and then went further, calling on Americans to resist the course Obama has set for the country.

"We have a chance to fight this battle at the ballot box before we have to resort to the bullet box," Crabill said. "But that's the beauty of our Second Amendment right. I am glad for all of us who enjoy the use of firearms for hunting. But make no mistake. That was not the intent of the Founding Fathers. Our Second Amendment right was to guard against tyranny."

But all that's supposed to be swept under the rug now that people are dead, isn't it? Perhaps you'd like to explain that to the parents of Christina Taylor Green.

Johnb - good thing she wasn't elected then to the virginia house. The Virginia voters made the right decision.

What is your point of saying...

But all that's supposed to be swept under the rug now that people are dead, isn't it?

What has to be swept under the rug?? Nothing I have read or heard yet has said that the GOP or teaparty conspired with loughner. Nor have I heard of any groups stepping up supporting him. Why not bring up video games that de-humanize violence or movies and TV shows that graphically shows violence? What about the murder and mayhem occuring daily in America? You do realize that just as language has consequences so do pictures.

My comments to the girls parents would be in the same vein as they were on saturday...

My condolences goes out to the victims and families of this latest shooting.

Nothing more can be said or implied by stating a reason for the shooting. You know it was senseless and I know it was senseless. Our only difference appears that you and others wish to politicize it and I want to know WTF was he thinking!

just in on a msnbc news update ~ 1 hour ago... seems that loughner has a support group now...

A certain Fred Phelps says God sent the shooter to avenge the nation's sins. Phelps is reported to be the leader of the Westboro Baptist Church in kansas.

Sounds like just another wack job to me but I suppose this means that the atheists are going to be out in droves accusing the believers of God and Christ that they now encouraged loughner to kill.

Excellent thoughts, JoAnne PA. We are all the kindling in this bonfire.

Joanne PA;

Excellent post. This is the issue in a nut shell. We (both democrats and republicans) need to start cleaning up our act. Words do have consequences, if not why talk or yell stop. People can no longer deny this, though they will try, just keep reading this post to see what I mean.

Stop it already. Everybody agree that this is a tragedy and we will do what we can (and in some cases should have) to stop this. Tell your elected officials and those running in future elections that you will not condone this behavior. Tell the media you no longer condone this behavior. Tell, write, get involve wherever you can to put a stop to the 24/7 hate speech, the violence speech, racism etc. We all need to get involved now. The deed has happened and we cannot change that, but we can work together to try and make sure it does not happen again. As a parent of young daughter I was heart broke when I saw her picture. Then I got mad, real mad that we as a Nation have not progressed as far as we thought. The goal of helping all Amerca is on life support now. When you become a nation so divided as we are today nothing good can come from it. So people, lets learn from this and band together to stop it. If we do not those 6 people will surely have died in for nothing.

Bob - they (the right) are not winning and this will be proved in 2012. Again the pendulum will swing because of the hatred espoused by the right. I am a moderate and every day I am amazed at the violent rhetoric of the right. It never ceases to amaze me that these people claim the are the "true Americans."

What is most important today, though, is that six good people - one a 9 year old - will never see another sunrise; never celebrate another holiday; never again hug a loved one; never again laugh, cry or just be. We have lost people for no reason at all. Was the gunman sick? Without a doubt. But, sick minds are urged on by hate-filled rhetoric and we need to remember this.

We ARE better than this, America.

Giffords was a moderate on the left who are the moderates on the right? Too many of the moderates on the right are gone and that has been said by many many republican senators and congressman. We need balance in both parties and we need to realize that the general tone of politics in this country encourages hateful commentary and now hateful violence. Lets all stop, just stop it. Lets all meet in the middle and leave the hateful people behind on both the left and the right if they do not want to join with those of us in mainstream America in the middle where we can all work peacefully together.

What I gather from all of this is , that the left and right should clean up their act. It can be said, that the right like Palin and Beck, has encouraged the use of violence. This need to stop.

Just because the left is now saying that these actions could and probably did encourage someone to act violently, does not make them wrong.

Rather than criticize and demonize the left, what the right should do is call for a halt of this hateful rhetoric. Instead,, it's more hate filled condemnation. I suppose Ms. Palin should now update her list and re-post it. All the gun shops should open up and make guns and ammo available at a discount. We should now use second amendment remedies. Make sure everyone has a gun when they show up at rallies. Lets complain as loud as we can, about how much money is being wasted on protecting the POTUS. This should make the right very happy.

I have read many of the posts, and sadly, once again the liberals and conservatives, have proven that the rhetoric and divisive nature of politics has led to finger pointing, missed the original intent of the article and evolved into an ambiguous climate devoid of any conciliatory agreement or empathy.

The tragedy In Arizona is historic and will find a place in the History Books. This event will be defined as a time that Americans united, became more civil or was the first of more such tragedies to follow due to the political environment of the time. The discord during the 1960's which led to the murders of JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King, and attempted assassinations of others including George Wallace shoud be utilized as some quantitative examples of lessons that divided rather than united our Country. The events of our past heritage still hurt, as will the Arizona tragedy will hurt us and future generations also.

Unfortunately, we have not learned from our past, and based on the biased comments exemplified here, we can not unite, make civil discord, will still have Battleground States targeted to the left or right, and the time is ripe to kill because you don't think like I do. Have you shot a far right Tea Party person today? So sad, so sad.

I am first a proud American. I respect the opinions of all of those that aspire and have obtained their goal to serve America as a public servant. I might disagree with them, but I can do so respectfully.

@ Navy,

Stop it already. Everybody agree that this is a tragedy and we will do what we can (and in some cases should have) to stop this. Tell your elected officials and those running in future elections that you will not condone this behavior. Tell the media you no longer condone this behavior. Tell, write, get involve wherever you can to put a stop to the 24/7 hate speech, the violence speech, racism etc. We all need to get involved now.

I commend you for your opinion Navy, we don't need to condone this behavior. And on this site, this behavior isn't constructive. Why not inform your friends, Fiesty and Bev, to lower their attacks on those with opposing thoughts?

Words do matter to a point.

The problem I have with all of this analyzing is that liberals are still trying to pin this on conservatives. Every liberal poster in this room has started with the usual "We have to come together, we have to stop" and then "He is a Tea Partier, the republicans this, the republicans that"etc...

This is why it will be hard to mend the divide in this country. Every damn fool is not a Republican, Every rich man is not a Republican, Every criminal is not a Republican, etc.....

This was a tragedy committed by a fool. He has been ignorant most of his life and I haven't seen one smidget of evidence that suggests he is of either political party.

If Jumping to Conclusions were an Olympic event, the Liberals would win every medal.

It wouldn't even be close.

If Jumping to Conclusions were an Olympic event, the Liberals would win every medal.

It wouldn't even be close.

More of the problem. Instead of discussion more denial.

Jody make up your mind! You want a change or not. Pointing fingers is not the way to go.

Navy - More of the problem. Instead of discussion more denial.

Sorry to tell it like it is Navy. Your side is completely off the rails. Discussion? Kind of hard, when your side has already determined the guilty, and now it's just a matter of doling out the punishment.

McKendry and Linda Kraeger, 61. Killed in church July 27, 2008 because James Adkisson hated Liberals.

A well respected doctor was killed by an evangelical christian fundamentalist that called all liberals evil for being pro choice last year. He walked into doctor Tillers church and killed him in front of his family and in front of many children who were in church that day. Hateful rhetoric has consequences.

@ JoAnnaSmith1

"your side"??? "your side" ??? You really aren't getting it, are you?

Yeah, the Left is not doing any of this!!! Keep on blaming others when you do the same. I'm not a Republican or Democrat, just an American.

Before you point the finger you might want to look at yourself first before passing judgement. Yes, the Right side is just as wrong.

I urge returning to civil discussion, I asked how did we get to this point, then provided when it began. Sorry if the truth bothers you. Yes, I hope we do change but what I wrote about the conservative demonization of government, taxes, people is a matter of record. "Government is the problem" said Ronald Reagan and then he began the systematic demonization of it, of unions, of taxes. That torch of demonization was picked up and carried by Newt Gingrich, by Grove Nordquist, Karl Rove, Bush 43, Cheney and a host of others in the right wing media who made sure to get the message out. If the shoe fits, wear it and in this case--the shoe fits the conservatives so well as to be Cinderella's glass slipper.

Jody,

America has reached a tipping point. It is not too late to "dial it back", not to late to bring civil political discussion back to the table, not too late to return to shared sacrifice for the common good, not too late to recognize neither side can have everything it wants but we can work together to reach the middle. We can tip the balance back to level or we can allow the country to fall over the edge. My hope is we choose to "dial it back", choose to meet in the middle and choose to accept that neither side can have everything it wants but both sides together can achieve great things.

Jody -

That torch of demonization was picked up and carried by Newt Gingrich, by Grove Nordquist, Karl Rove, Bush 43, Cheney and a host of others in the right wing media who made sure to get the message out. If the shoe fits, wear it and in this case--the shoe fits the conservatives so well as to be Cinderella's glass slipper.

You are killing me. Make up your mind. geez

US navy you brought up good points in 2.11 and 3.2 then contradicted them in 5.0 and your post 1.0 and subsequent replies thru out the first post. Condoning one while villifying another is not the way to go.

I also encourage EVERYONE to observe the moment of silence at 11:00.

I'll be joining you Grimey! ;o)

Hi Frank – Thanks for your thoughts.

Day 3 and there is still no evidence that this was motivated toward or by either Party but more against the government in general. As law enforcement agencies go thru his life with a fine-tooth comb there is no evidence this was in reaction to any Party or Platform.

In the information uncovered Gabrielle Giffords is the only elected official mentioned. I believe this may have been because she was an easy local target for him to display his distrust of the Federal Government.

While every political group is saying “Don’t Blame Us” none of them did anything to tap down the rhetoric – actually they joined in the discussion furthering the anger and distrust. Also make sure we all hold the media accountable as well for airing hateful statements and images made by someone or some group repeatedly 24/7.

Grimey -

As always, the calm voice of reason. I'll be joining you at 11:00am. Thank you.

Excellent post, Frank "Grimey". Neither side is guiltless but let's hope both sides heed the warning and tone it down. I'll be there, too, for the moment of silence.

Frank;

Very true and that is my point. We all better clean up our act(s). We as a Nation can no longer tolerate this behavior period. It must stop, enough is enough already. Recognize how this happened and what (who) caused what and fix it so it does not happen again. I agree that this is issue is on both sides of the aisle. I also believe that in part the American people did not speak out as strongly as we maybe should have over the last three years. Many of us wrote on this board that the possibility of this type of action would follow. We should have yelled louder and longer I am afraid.

Frank,

Great post,

Navy,

I have never agreed with many of your points, and on occasions, we have had civil discussions, but to blame a political group, or party for this mess, is just WRONG! You should be ashamed of yourself. As much stuff as you cut and paste on here each day, you really need to take Frank's advice and check out a mirror.

We should have yelled louder and longer I am afraid.

That's the way to act civil. Do you even realize that the young girl killed has two major tragedies to her name. Born on 9/11 and now killed in this moment of hate. Think about the victims instead of pointing a finger at a political party.

That disgusting creature and his so-called "church" are so far beneath contempt that I never mention his name, nor the name of his corrupt organization.

There are no words to describe the loathing he inspires is just about e eryone I know. Many of my friends have been victims of this low- life, whose brand of "religion" is more closely tied to the being who dwells to the south of the earth.

That he would join in exploiting this tragedy should give others who do so pause.

This is the point.

We have all said things we should not have. What sounds harmless or innocent to us can be misinterpreted by someone else.

It's not the time for blaming, it's not the time for posturing, it's not the time for debating who is better. Or worse.

We all owe our fellow man an apology. I do. I am sorry. We should all be.

Fielden -

Thank you for being one of the few to get to the heart of the issue today.

I am sorry too.

I would like to promise to try and do better tomorrow and every day.

But after reading most of the comments here today - from both the right and the left - I'm not sure I even want to come back here again at all. Unlike any day in the over two years I've been reading First Read, today has just broken my spirit.

Please, everyone......take a deep breath. Step away from the keybord. Think. Look deep into your own heart. Meditate or pray. Mourn. Grieve.....for all America.

This, I believe, is what 'taking one's country back' looks like.

And yes, Patrick- you make an excellent point. I'd also ask to see campaign literature produce by the left featureing cross-hairs on selected 'target' districts.

Patrick SLC-

They can't!

DBO-

I agree with you 100%. It's a shame they have to act like that........for a minute there I thought they were adults but I guess I was wrong.

dbo

I don't know how to cut and paste but if you care to see the target on Giffords complete with full name then type in the following. "Daily Kos put a bullseye on Giffords in June 2008" They didn't mean for anyone to be hurt andy more than Sarah Palin did. We all need to get a Grip.

http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/screen-shot-2011-01-08-at-3-05-33-pm.png

Here you go, Maggie.

I do know how to cut and paste.

By the way, dailykos is no more responsible than Palin.

Societal mores, which protect the "right" of the mentally disturbed to avoid treatment, is to blame.

why not share the link so we can all read about it?

seems that the democrats are already having a hissy fit, better let the house ethics committee make a ruling.

You're welcome, american.

WASHINGTON (AP) — Democrats and congressional watchdog groups accused Republicans on Friday of illegally holding a campaign fundraiser in the Capitol complex during this week's swearing-in ceremonies for lawmakers.

One group said it would ask House ethics officials to investigate, but there were no immediate indications that they would take formal action.

A spokesman for the GOP congressman who sponsored the event denied that he had used it to raise campaign money, and said funds collected were for the costs of buses that ferried people to the reception. While at the reception, the two Republican lawmakers — Mike Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania and Pete Sessions of Texas — missed their swearing-in ceremony on the House floor. They subsequently cast six votes each that House Republicans later had to nullify.

Well said.

Hey Sarah..

Hows that hit listy thing going?

FR seems to be reluctant to put up links this morning. I wouldn't want to be accused of not being able to back up what I've said, so here goes;

Today, as the nation mourns, the message from some quarters is one of moderation…that one can’t hold inflammatory speakers responsible for what one lone crazy might do. True enough, if it’s one.

Sunday, July 27, 2008 Jim D Adkisson walked into the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church during a children’s musical production and opened fire. Nine people were shot, two fatally. Adkisson felt entitled to do this by his hatred of Liberalism.

February, 2009 the FBI revealed that James Cummings of Belfast, Maine had been stockpiling uranium, thorium, lithium, beryllium, and other materials to construct a radiological “dirty bomb.” Cummings was “very upset” when Barack Obama was elected president.

April, 2009 Richard Poplawski killed 3 police officers and wounded another because he believed President Barack Obama would send people to take his guns.

May, 2009 Scott Roeder was arrested for the killing of Dr. George Tiller as tiller served his church as an usher. Cable news personality Bill O’Reilly had focused his attention on Dr. Tiller over 2 dozen times previously, normally referring to him as “Tiller the killer” do to the fact that his practice provided legal abortion services.

March, 2010 a propane line was cut at the home of the brother of Rep. Tom Perriello in an apparent attempt to cause a fire or explosion. The address of Perriello’s brother had mistakenly been identified as the address of Congressman Perriello by Tea Party activists who wished to inspire protests at the Representative’s home.

July, 2010 Byron Williams is involved in a shootout with California Highway Patrol. This altercation undoubtedly saved some innocent lives because Williams was on his way to the Tides Foundation intending to kill anyone he could at that location. Williams was inspired to kill because Glenn Beck’s broadcasts had convinced him that the Foundation was center of a secret Liberal plot to destroy the United States.

January 8, 2011. Jared Lee Loughner attempts to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords at a Safeway store in Arizona. He then turns his gun on anyone in the immediate area. Six are killed, ranging in age from 9 to 79, 14 others injured. Loughner believes among other things that the present government is a threat to his Liberty and that there is an impending monetary collapse. Sources are available to fan the flames of such paranoia.

Language has consequences.

John B: Excellent Post! Accurate reporting of factual events.

John, You suffer from tunnel vision. What happen this weekend was a tragedy. What you are doing right now is irresponsible.

Go ahead and fan the flames, its obvious that you just don't get it.

Thanks for posting the facts, John B. Those who believed Pres Obama would take their guns, or liberals are evil had internalized the message spoken daily by the right-wing media.

That's what people said in July, 2008, thetotas. And February, 2009. And April, 2009. And May, 2009. And March, 2010. And July, 2010. And again now.

How many more people have to die before the pattern means something?

John B.

Touche', We all knew the the right would be out in denial today, but it is not just about them. I think they do have some accountability in what happened, no matter how they try and spin their way out. In fact all who promote violence and hate have a hand in this tragedy and should be held accountable. I do not think any rational person would disagree with that.

Denying ones accountablity does not help toward a solution.

thetotas: Go ahead and fan the flames, its obvious that you just don't get it.

This sums up the Liberal position quite well.

Whats your point? You post what happen in 2008, 2009 and so on, but no mention of any Libs and what they have done. Why is that? You don't see what that does? You divide us with your one sided comment. I don't see how you cant see that.

I live here in Arizona and when I was looking for more info on this event this morning, I tuned over to a radio station where they went on about the 50 most dangerous liberals and the damage they are doing to America and the freedoms they are trying to destroy.

They have been saying this crap for the past 15-20 years as if they had the only opinion and vision for America was theirs and all others were subversive. They won’t change their rhetoric, not now, not ever. There might be a lull in it for a bit, but I am sure the only thing that will change is somehow they will blame her for getting shot, saying something like, “if she was actually listening to her constituents” or “if she wasn’t such a dangerous liberal this wouldn’t have happened.”

In fact, in light of the hate and lies they have been spewing for that time period, I’d even argue they are pleased someone took out this “freedom stealing liberal whore who is selling out her country to China” or whatever other color adjectives and metaphors they have used to describe her and anyone associated with her party.

That's a good point, itsborken.

Did that movie air in the USA? I remember the movie and would say it was not worthy of attention. All this he said she said gets no where.

The movie was made by a British producer and aired on British TV. Nice try at equivalency. Try again.

Ltank:

If you never saw the same sorts of things being done when George W. Bush was in office then frankly you weren't paying attention. Has an assassination movie been made about Obama yet like one was done about Bush? Didn't think so.

And how many 9 year old children were killed, or judges or anybody. You make a false comparison as John B. has pointed out. It would be a good try if not so repugnant.

But it was OK for Obama, OUR PRESIDENT, to say "if they bring knives to the fight, we'll bring guns." In a POLITICAL discussion.

I am so sick and tired of all the trembling lips and hand wringing of those on the left who absolutely refuse to admit that there are problems on BOTH sides of the aisle.

The tragedy does point out the need to dial back some of the harsh rhetoric. While this is not the time for the blame game it would be disingenuous to suggest that all of the vitriol of the past two years did not have an adverse effect on deranged people like Jared Lee Loughner.

Liberals and conservatives have been known to engage in hyperbole but the right wing media (Limbaugh, Beck, et al) have had a field day in the past two years inciting the masses with harsh words on a daily basis.

while I honestly don’t believe that they wished death to members of the other party but they were irresponsible because mentally ill people don’t know that it is just “entertainment” for the talk show crowd.

As has been oft quoted her previously and especially today “ words have power”

Who lies dead because President Obama said he was prepared to get tough with his political opponents?

February, 2009 the FBI revealed that James Cummings of Belfast, Maine had been stockpiling uranium, thorium, lithium, beryllium, and other materials to construct a radiological “dirty bomb.” Cummings was “very upset” when Barack Obama was elected president.

Oh for god's sake, John, could you be any more ridiculous? You are the poster child for the unbelievable HYPOCRISY that spews from the left on a daily basis. Liberalism really is a mental illness. Go see a doctor.

Sarah Palin has posted on her Facebook page a list of the Democrats she is targeting for defeat in the November elections. She says her political action committee will be "paying particular attention to those House members who voted in favor of Obamacare and represent districts that Senator John McCain and I carried during the 2008 election."

Here's her list of targeted Democrats: Ann Kirkpatrick (Arizona), Harry E. Mitchell (Arizona), Gabrielle Giffords (Arizona), John Salazar (Colorado), Betsy Markey (Colorado). Allen Boyd (Florida), Suzanne M. Kosmas (Florida), Baron P. Hill (Indiana), Earl Pomeroy (Alabama), Charlie Wilson (Ohio), John Boccieri (Ohio), Kathy Dahlkemper (Pennsylvania), Christopher Carney (Pennsylvania), John M. Spratt, Jr. (South Carolina), Tom Perriello (Virginia), Alan B. Mollohan (West Virginia), and Nick J. Rahall II (West Virginia).

"We'll aim for these races and many others," she writes. "This is just the first salvo in a fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to Washington."

Language has consequences.

"Don't Retreat...Reload!"

Chalk it up to "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

Language has consequences.

Lack of reasoning and comprehension skills does too. And yes, I am talking about you.

The target of inflammatory speech by Sarah Palin and her Tea Party opponent has been the target of an assassination attempt.

Would you like to explain to the family of 76-year-old victim Dorwin Stoddard why Palins words didn't matter?

Obama referred to Republican as "Enemies"

"Language has consequences"

Ain't that right Johnny boy? Is this you're response for everything? When you post you're hatred and then try to say you're right you finish with this-Language has consequences.

Now go back to work your 40-50 hour work week............

Post the link John that this guy is a TEA Partier? Better yet, post the link that he belongs to ANY party.

JoAnnaSmith1

*** The spotlight on Palin: Of course, this all brings us to Sarah Palin. What took place on Saturday in Arizona could end up haunting her,

Really? How? How do you connect this event with Sarah Palin? Other than the fact that you hate her and this just one more way to get a cheap shot in at her?

Please, can you not say how strange your comment is? A major political party calls for citizens to rise up against the government by using BUllets for BAllots, be Armed and DAngerous, and succeed from the nation.

I didn't say he's a member of the Tea Party. I said Rep. Giffords was the target of inflammatory language and someone took them up on it.

Language has consequences.

How do you connect this event with Sarah Palin?

Jesus Christ, are you even capable of basic reasoning skills JoAnnaSmith1? All you're doing is proving how unhinged your party of dangerous lunatics is.

Thanks John. JoAnna and friends don't get it because they don't know that they don't know.

Look I don't think anyone thinks That Sarah P is in favor of this action. It is an inarguable fact that she relies on getting people fired up in order to generate support. I don't think that anyone can deny the fact that she had a map of crosshairs on her website. It is also clear that many democrats have reveled in getting people whipped into a frenzy. This is across the board and few are completly innocent of creating an environment of anger and fear. We use to be a nation of people who could discuss things, a nation that was educated enough to be able express ourselves constructively and have meaningful productive debate. Now we find ourselves acting like a bunch of first graders without the mental capacity to express ourselves and appreciate the point of view of other people.

JoAnna and her ilk (on here) do get it. They just want to excuse it.

If we lived in the 1930s id call them apologist...hmmm I guess I still will

I know that the hate sickens us all and moving from this point forward, we the people need to call these people out at once when we hear their hate talk such as “second amendment remedies, “lock and re-load,” and gun cross hairs on web sites. Thank about it, for example; you have certain groups call the President a “Nazis, socialist, un-American and not born here,” you name it. I myself have dropped in on rallies during my travels and seen all of these this for myself and the scenes are scary. Their stance is based on intolerance and in many cases a lie-fed hatred brought on by the far right extremist and Sarah Palin fits right in the mix.

With groups of people throwing these untruthful tags around, you will get certain unbalanced people that think it’s there appointed mission in life to remedy the situation with violence.

Please stop it now.

SBV

It's incredible, these posts. In the lapse of merely a few pages and a few hours, it has devolved into the RW screaming that:

WE, us *libtards, lefties, communist manifesto-reading, A^^^^, how dare you tell us we have any culpabtility in this matter? It's now we who are the Left Leaning Hate Mongers?

Can you fathom the ease of their projections? The level of their animosity? The sanctimonious, self-righteous mantle they are able to pull over their collective heads?

It's truly amazing.

I very much agree with you bikerchick. Since before the election, I had started turning off my TV and radio whenever the ads were run. I saw an awful lot of HGTV, HSN and QVC, believe me. If the people of this nation will stop listening to this tripe and start insisting to their elected officials that we will no longer hear what they say until they say it with civility, maybe, just maybe, we can get our message across. I would like to believe that the majority of our citizenry is intelligent and can figure out a way to have this volcanic eruption of hatred and hostility capped. Whew, didn't mean to go that far, but still glad I did. Thanks.

It's already started. Palin's show has been cancelled, Beck's radio show is cancelled in New York. People are speaking out with their wallets. The American people are tired of this hatred.

I'm waiting for the likes of Palin,Bachmann, Beck, Rush,,Virgina Fox and a few others to be condemned for intent to start a riot,,,all of them at one point or another have condoned violence to achieve their agenda. How does this behavior go unchecked ?

Great point, turn it off, walk away and write your legislators saying you disapprove.

Back when the Tea Party frenzy began, Garrison Keillor wrote a terrific editorial indicating that at some point the screaming anger would die, that the level of anger and hate could not be maintained, that people would stop listening to the hate speech, the vitriolic rhetoric and I think there is evidence we may have reached that point where people are turning it off and tuning it out. Beck's radio show has also been cancelled in Philadelphia.

We need all this hate rhetoric to make things change. Clown politicians have for too long ignored the needs of the people and worried about lining their own pockets. I don't advocate running around shooting each other but i'm all for changing the status quo.

Jody, Iowa

I've heard that he has also been cancelled in New York. He will have to sell his crazy talk, gold and back packs else where.

Caution:

Let us not allow the RW to continue the part in their playbook where they scream "bloody murder" any time we start pointing "it" (all of it) out. And, yes, I am saying bloody murder.

Let us not allow the minority fringe of inherently angry, ill-informed people to somehow manage to always rule the dialog, by veering off topic, pointing the finger back at us, all the while racheting up the hatred even further.

My calling them out on it does not make me one of them. I refuse to swallow that same old pill.

RW threw out all the landmines. It was only a matter of time before someone connected all the dots.

The fact that the assassin is "insane" is irrelevent--it starts with the premise that a sane person would have and could have done this. Pure sophistry.

The onus of responsibilty lies with those who said, wrote, blogged, screamed or tacitly approved the incendiary language. And we know which crowd is responsible.

I welcome the input of any of the RRRWW crowd in this post to dispute my claims. In fact, I dare to do differently.

Your stupidity is boundless. Either that or your Al Qaeda trying to stir the pot.

well, Jasper, THAT was certainly an informed and thoughtful comment.

By the way - that's sarcasm, if you're not familiar with the concept.

Again, tunnel vision. This is a tragedy. Over the weekend I have read the comments here I was amazed on how many people before the facts came out was blaming, either Rep, Conservatives, Tea Party you name it.

Bev. Dont know what country you live in but for me, I see the complete opposite. This morning is perfect example. Read the posts, yea a tragedy but still pointing the finger. Sick

So, the folks who've been crying about the Administration being an enemy of the United States, of "watering the tree of Liberty with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants", of "palling around with terrorists" just get to blend into the woodwork when someone acts on their inflammatory lies?

Sorry, not this time.

thetotas

Bev. Dont know what country you live in but for me, I see the complete opposite. This morning is perfect example. Read the posts, yea a tragedy but still pointing the finger. Sick

I see facts rather than finger points coming from the lefties whose post here. The righties have yet to identify what VP candidate, President, Member of Congress, or Democratic candidate has asked its base to pick up a gun, literally, secede from the union, or assassinate a public figure in this country of mine (America)?

The right's leaders are disgusting and treasonous.

For all of you who have a concern about the bullseye look who had it first....this from the Democratic Leadership Council:

amp; amp; amp; amp;kaid=127&subid=171

Truly the hate speech does seem to be coming from the left.

* “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” Barack Obama in July 2008

* “I want you to argue with them and get in their face!” Barack Obama, September 2008

* “Here’s the problem: It’s almost like they’ve got — they’ve got a bomb strapped to them and they’ve got their hand on the trigger. You don’t want them to blow up. But you’ve got to kind of talk them, ease that finger off the trigger.” Barack Obama on banks, March 2009

* “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!” Barack Obama on ACORN Mobs, March 2010

* “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.” Barack Obama on the private sector, June 2010

* “A Republican majority in Congress would mean ‘hand-to-hand combat’ on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy.” Barack Obama, October 6, 2010

* “We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us.” Barack Obama to Latinos, October 2010

The correction needs to come from the highest office.

Actually the problem as I see it is most liberals apparently are not based in reality. Much like this mad man shooter. Once the media go's back to it's roots and reports the "Truth" . Instead of immediately calling the Tea Party the ones responsible before anything was known about this loony tune. New York times was the first Blog doing that. To bad it has disappeared. That my friends is dishonest and seriously bad journalism.

You "The Left" immediately attack Sarah, Rush, Hannity and of course Glen Beck and Fox news.

Doesn't it seem a little convenient that this just happens to be anyone that disagrees with the liberal mind set?

By the way even though the Democrat party tried to clean its little gun sight targets they apparently cannot get them in internet archives.

http://hillbuzz.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/demmap.jpg?w=397&h=355

By the way none of the above conservative talk show host have ever advocated violence.

You might just watch Becks show sometime it might show you how the lie machine your being subject to works. Violence has never been advocated by any Tea Party members. Only our president advocates violence.

So I suggest you all tread lightly because this guy is a nut case. That is all it is.

God be with the victims and their families.

From a true Navy Veteran....

Name someone who died because the President said he was going to get tough with political opponents.

July, 2010 Byron Williams was stopped enroute to kill at the Tides Foundation and ACLU. Listening to Glenn Beck had convinced Williams that Tides was involved in a plot to destroy the United States.

At the arraignment, Thomason confirmed to KTVU that evidence indicated Williams planned to target the Tides Foundation, a progressive nonprofit organization with an office located in San Francisco's Presidio which -- according to its website -- works promotes social change through its partnerships with groups worldwide.

Thomason said Williams was also headed to the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California office in San Francisco. At the arraignment, Thomason confirmed to KTVU that evidence indicated Williams planned to target the Tides Foundation, a progressive nonprofit organization with an office located in San Francisco's Presidio which -- according to its website -- works promotes social change through its partnerships with groups worldwide.

Thomason said Williams was also headed to the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California office in San Francisco.

The media loves to sensationalize: Maybe we need to look in our own backyard - Watching the Today Show when Hoda & Kathie Lee entered the set, what was Kathie Lee doing running her fingers through the hair of a guest trying to complete his segment then shows no compassion for the young man by saying something like, I wonder where his parents are and talks about the sicko who obviously has problems. We are missing compassion and support. Lets stop bullyiing on tv - and understand all of our lives are not created equal Az was a tragic event. The sheriff was correct , we, all of us as individuals need to become a better people. Lets stop sensationalizing for ratings sake. Media - you have a responsibility. Please stop the inappropriate words/ behavior - you are a role model. Its hard, but we are all role models- its just more intensified on tv. God bless all of you too!

Well said, Nashville. I think our FR hosts did an excellent job with this First Thoughts posts, looking in their own mirror as well. This is the moment to start.

Nashville_fan

Dear First Read:

I don't have a solution, but perhaps just the simple realization that most Americans want the same things for our country, but just differ on the best way to get it would be a start.

Excellent observation.

Personally, I think this violence coming from the right is going to fade because like Senate Majority Harry Reid the tea baggers will soon fade away.

Soon the tea baggers will realize they are being used as pawns

Political analysts talked a lot about the enthusiasm gap during the past mid-term election season. I think Palin's cross hairs, Bachmans "Armed and Dangerous", and Angle's "second amendment remedies" were irresponsible attempts to energize the base.

I also think we should all reflect on some of the more subtle dehumanizing name-calling that many of us engage in regularly. Although name-calling usually does not invoke violent imagery maybe it can influence the unstable to separate "us" and "them" in a way that dehumanizes their political opponent.

I'm not trying to call anyone out or say that we should completely stop calling each other names. I just think it deserves some thought.

you maybe a tea bagger that is something gay men do but i as a tea party member find your remarks to be tacky and like your idel reid complety crap i have belives one is in god one is in country one is in famly,this young man was like you a brick or two short of a full load,so never think we conseritives will allow you or reid from speaking the truth,as far as the volence coming from the right this young man was a left wing loose nut ,with no history of being a right winger befor you make stuped remarks read his damm history,a proud american and tea party supporter

Marvin, it is unfortunate that capping this conversation about respect, decency and showing more regard for other people's views you write a post like that. Tell you what, I am not going to attack you, but instead ask you to see if in the future you can state your opinions without becoming nasty at the same time.

In general, the bitterness and division in political discourse has become much more cruel and demeaning in the past 40 or more years. Much of this is the fault of professional political advisors whose desire to win knows no limits. It has become a standard tactic to attempt to alienate "swing" voters and motivate each side's own base of reliable voters. This is because low turnout and a highly-motivated base usually equals victory, and study after study shows that ugly campaigns tend to drive voters away from the ballot boxes.

And we have also seen that overheated rhetoric does indeed affect the actions of disturbed people. Look at the fellow who flew an airplane into an IRS office. Remember Sirhan Sirhan, who murdered Robert Kennedy. Look at the Unabomber, or Timothy McVeigh. And while the ultimate events were horrific, and certainly involved bumbling by the authorities, remember that both Ruby Ridge and Waco happened because folk conceived a violent hatred for not only the American government, but the American people.

The young man who committed this terrible crime certainly has a history of mental illness. But look at how he manifested this illness - by conceiving a surging fear of and hatred for government. Where this young man lives, he receives constant exposure to the steady drumbeat of virulent critics of government and society, of people who hate their immigrant neighbors, people who are convinced that most elected officials are evil and corrupt, people who have become so alienated from their country and countrymen that they feel the best response is armed resistance to any perceived threat.

Various news reports about him make it clear that he has been spiraling downward for years - and that many others had seen this happening. Certainly, when he left college under a command not to come back unless he had received mental therapy it was time for someone to act. Instaed, he turned inward, away from his friends and others, and as his illness deepened, he also absorbed political hate speech daily. There is no doubt that it was a misconceived, twisted perception of government and public figures that he acted out with his gun. He had been warning people for some time that this was his attitude - but no one listened closely enough.

Sticks and stones, some say, but indeed words do hurt. Bullied children kill themselves because of it. People lose their jobs becuse of it. And people lose their lives because of it.

Let's hope that the political hate speech disappears from respectable public discourse, and let's all speak out with disapproval when we encounter it.

Nice thoughts Nash. Too bad it took 3 posts for Beverly and Charles to politicize it.

What is in the water around Chicago anyway?

John A.-400474,

Very well said.

Civility in debate is, unfortunately, something not everyone understands or appears to want. I've been called atrocious things by people who don't know anything about me...merely by stating my point of view.

The "us vs. them" mentality will always exist when two or more factions come together. When you have people willing to learn from each other, you also have meaningful debate, dialog and ultimately an exchange of ideas that may change perspectives.

If you have belligerence and intolerance, you start courting acts of violence in people with a propensity to commit them.

Fortunately, here on Newsvine there *is* a Code of Conduct. It's one of the reasons why I continue to come here to vent and debate with others. Sometimes--too often, actually--we see the vitriol of people like marvin-891288.

And then, there are the occasional breaths of fresh air from folks like you.

It's a shame some can't--or won't--accept different points of view without getting personal, but I've long believed that comes with maturity and respect. People with a lack of both or either tend to fire off insulting and incendiary comments with little regard for others.

I'm a Republican, but I'm an American first...and a human being before that. I don't have all the answers. Not everything Democrats believe in is wrong, and not everything I believe in is right.

And with that framework in mind, debate for me is educational...and enjoyable.

Thanks to everyone for sharing your comments . . . I have been out playing in the snow with my 10 and 11 year old . . . and I felt a big pang of sadness thinking about the innocent 9 year old who was lost in Arizona on Saturday.

Coming here and seeing all of your perspectives is a welcome reminder that "we the people" do have the power to improve our country . . . and I believe we will.

My neighbor has a "Don't Tread On Me" bumper sticker on his car . . . and yet every year he invites me and my family to his Christmas Party and has been instrumental in helping my husband get his business going. We are all so much more than our political views . . . lets not forget that.

Nashville, I've been reading your posts for years now... and I would like to say... just keep it up. U were one of the reasons I originally kept coming back to read here. Always level headed and cool - Civil. Even though I haven't always been civil, it's folks like you and other on First read who keep me somewhat grounded and not to jump on the I hate repubs bandwagon. I may not agree with them.... but I don't hate them.... and because of that I've actually learned to agree with some of their points - as I see that it is sometimes in the best interest of America and we the people.

Now all this cannot be ascribed to talking heads like Hannity, Pailin, Beck (O'reilly has certainly calmed down over the years) who do nothing but promote anger among their listeners; one fine afternoon, I decided to tune into beck with my 3 year old son during the health care debate...unbeknown to me, Beck was going to go on a tirade slamming the table and screaming about how much the government was destroying America... I got mad about why we let someone with so much hate on the air... what then finally got to me was seeing the petrified look on my son's face at what this man was saying. I had to turn the channel as this is not what I wanted my son wot be witnessing. In summary, the political climate we see so often today is not the world I grew up in and would not like it to be the world our children grow up in. It needs to stop. OVER THE TOP RHETORIC HAS NO PLACE IN POLITICS. So Nashville, thanks for always keeping the level head.

Disclaimer: I've seen Olberman act like a mad man too... but not to the level I see coming from folks who think Obama stole America from them.

Others have contributed to a fine discussion too... both from the right and left.

Thanks so much for the kind words Tunde. . . means a lot.