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When Republican Sen. Jim DeMint quietly threatened yesterday to burn up hours of floor time by making a clerk read the entire START treaty aloud, Senate leaders negotiated their way around it behind the scenes.
But they may not be so lucky later tonight.
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., hasn't been quiet about his intention to make the Senate clerk read the the large spending bill that funds government operations for next year -- a bill Reid is expected to bring to the floor at about 6pm ET tonight.
McCain says the bill is loaded with an "outrageous" number of earmarks. "Let me be clear about one thing," McCain said on the Senate floor Tuesday night, "if the majority leader insists on proceeding to this monstrosity, the American people will know what's in it."
"I'll be joined by many of my colleagues on this side of the aisle to ensure that every single word of this bill is read aloud here on the Senate floor," he pledged.
But today, Reid stood firm against McCain and President Barack Obama, who also supports banning earmarks.
"I'm going to fight as hard as I can against President Obama on these earmarks, and my Republican colleagues who hate to vote for them but love to get them," he said.
The so-called "omnibus" spending bill is almost 2000 pages long.
Aides and floor staff say it could take anywhere between 40 to 50 hours to read aloud.
Leave a Comment:
Like the old Goat will manage to stay awake!
I say READ it already and then don't you DARE b!tch McGeezer when Harry keeps you there through the holidays!
damn straight, feisty. these @!$%#s wrote the book on bs tactics and now they need to reap what they've sown. priceless that mcgeezer isn't going to read it himself,...this way he gets the added benefit of saying no one knows what's in it.
priceless. Cloud Coverage forecast? mostly, and old man still yelling.
Yeah, they'll pitch a fit about that too...they're republicans. They do a thing for decades, then bitch when we employ the same tactics. Feisty, I take solace in the EPIC amount of legislation we've passed over the last 2 years, look forward to doing it again when the recovery plows ahead for the next 2 years, and then...
Michelle for America 2016!
He's added pidgeons on the park bench to his repertoire!
That's got a nice ring to it... thanks for the smile! :0)
McCain making a 'stand' on pork? Please. If he needed to for political expediency he'd drop that position immediately.
Remember his stance on illegal immigration?
You are right on Feisty. He is like old man Potter in it’s a Wonderful Life and I lost all respect for him when he picked Palin as his running mate.
If he wants it read, he should have to read it himself.
McCain is for everything he was against before. He doesn't have a clue anymore. Just likes to make noise.
Johnny figures he might as well burn up all the floor time he can while he tries to figure out which one of his homes that he'll be missing Christmas at.
If McCain wants to sit on his thumbs while somebody reads to him instead of making the effort to read it himself then its long past time for him to check into an assisted living retirement community.
The only legislation the country needs now is the clean up of existing legislation, and, all of that should be buget balanced.
Period!
For sure. They should put McCain in a chair right next to the reader so everyone can see that he is there and stays awake for the whole reading. This is just more of his senile idiocy. This and some of the other shenanigans that the GOP has pulled in the last two years is why the Senate and government is so ineffectual.
Make sure there are a few Dems there to interrupt every once in a while, "Ah, excuse me, can you repeat that?"
I'm not sure some of these guys could understand it even if it's read out loud to them. Too bad there's not a picture book that goes with it.
Dream on. The Tea Party candidates have wasted no time in hiring lobbyists to run their offices, holding meet-your-local-lobbyist fundraisers, and adding pork after earmark after pork to everything they can get their hands on, but don't worry, they're irresponsible spending is more than matched by their irresponsible give aways to the extremely wealthy.
You can expect them to be as 'balanced' as Uncle Rupert, and no more so.
In January, it will be Democrats turn to read bills on the floor...what goes around, comes around.
Hah Harry already folded. They will do a stop gap to keep the government running and Harry will have less power next year when the Republicans in the House Control the purse
Amen! John McCain is a disgrace to his party and our country. Any respect I had for him for his courageous military career has been lost by his behavior since 2008. He needs to go home and stay home.
I like the idea of John being in a chair right next to the podium during the bill reading. I would suggest that he have a "C-clamp" put on his head just in case he falls asleep. The reader can then just give the handle a quarter turn or so to wake him up so he wont miss anything.
You libs crack me up. Your real good about spending others people money and making jokes about republicans and the Tea Party, and then you will stand on your high horse and defend @!$%#s like Pelosi, Reid and Obama who are truly bankrupting this country.
You could say the same thing about Reid, Pelosi, Waters, and lets not forget Rangel, who just got censured. Whats the matter, you have a problem with a bill, with all the pork and waste that this one has of actually being read before it's voted on. Lets see, Pelosi made the stupid comment that they had to pass the bill so we could see whats in it. We are now stuck with that bill which is causing insurance rates to skyrocket all because they had to ram it through without time for anyone to read it. The dems failed to do their primary job which is to pass the budget and then when they lose the house because of all of their crap, they try to ram through even more.
All we have gotten over the last two years is a president and democrat leaders who told republicans/independents that the dems won and live with it. They have pushed class, race and political warfare to keep everyone from seeing what is really going on. Obama has not taken responsibility for anything, always blaming Bush or someone else, leaving out the fact that he was a U.S. Senator and part of the problem. You all try to ignore what happened Nov 2, but the reality is the dems lost control because they refused to listen to the majority of the country. If they continue, they will be out in 2012.
I don't think McCain cares if he works thru the holidays reading a bill that should be read!
Why not read the bill?
Trouble_American, I'm sure the GOP is completely blameless for everything that's happened up till now.
All we need to do is have them in power again and they'll make everything good. Stupid Americans, why don't they bring back the people who made everything awesome?
*sarcasm*
Tax and spend Democrats are still better than borrow and spend GOP.
And why shouldn't people know what is in the bill?
They should. That’s why it’s posted online.
does everyone get these public servants has had these documents for a decent bit. but say for the benefit of the doubt, they have read the documents -- these public servants are jacking us off for the sake of DELAY. is this a good use of time? personally, i am sick and tired of these public servants' grandstanding tactics
Janet's right. These guys have only had the bill for eight months.
True, previous START Treaties have all been passed within 5 days, but back then we had a literate electorate and even politicians were expected to be able to READ.
Jane brings up a good point. These hacks haven't been doing their job. It's time to dun their paychecks.
The issue is these guys are not "public servants". They are pure politicians who sold their souls to corporate benefactors and the wealthy who are now demanding their pound of flesh. What poor excuses for human beings these guys are.
And further, do any of them really believe we are sympathic to their having to work on Christmas Eve and after the holiday? Ask the millions of people who do it every year. Again, it come back to the same thing - these people are a disgrace - both as political servants and even worse as human beings.
They should that is why we all are screwed by the Obama healthcare bill. No one knew what they were voting for. Why keep doing this? If what I just read on MSNBC and Politico was right, then Reid withdrew the bill. He doesn't want to have it read. He and Pelosi don't want the American people to know what is going on again. They should have to sit and listen to the entire bill. This would eliminate the 2,000 page bills. Finally make them responsible for what they are doing there.
Dennis, have you read it? Just wondering if you know what is in the bill and should it be passed or not because as people have mentioned all of the unfunded pork which will be added to the already massive debt this administration has rung up over the past two years, one record after another. I think it should be read than no one can say they didn't know what was in the bill, as Pelosi said we need to pass it so we know what is in the bill, and are we finding out what is in it that we were told wasn't, just more lies from the left. Let's read the bill and then amend where needed in a bipartisan agreement, especially on all the earmarks. Also, I've heard there is money in there for Obama Care, and were not sure it even is constitutional. Begin the reading.
John,
It doesn’t matter if Health Reform Law is constitutional at this time since the VA court judge intentionally said it should be allowed to go forward. So at this point in time it is constitutional and must be treated as such.
No longer need to read it since it has been removed from the schedule for this congress and will be replaced with a continuing resolution that will keep the government running until February 2011. Then we will see if the Republican/Tea Party members still have balls enough to try to put the pork back in it.
After all half of the requests are from each party.
ps. No, I have not read it yet.
It could be on-line, or on their desks. But they aren't reading it. I think it should be mandatory that they read the bill before it's voted on. So what if the Republicans read the bill out loud in congress. It forces those sneaking little devils to have their earmarks exposed and shot down, hopefully. AND, if it takes to long for those sneaky little devils get a chance to vote on it before they have to leave office, GREAT. Cuz then the ones who do vote for it will have to be accountable in the next election. SO BE IT. These earmarks are hurting our country. Remember the US of A! Thats us people, left or right or whatever in between.
If you can read Janet, then you will know what is in the bill. I don't think there is one blind Senator, but if there were, I am sure it would be printed in braille.
Let McFart read it. Go on McFart... and while you're at it read the repealing DADT act as well.
Feisty we can sit down with a couple of drinks and some popcorn while the old fart rabbles on. And Janet, hope you listen carefully to it all seeing as you want to know every word that's in the bill. You can tell us the juicy parts on Monday.
I thought the same thing but if you let McGeizer read it, it will take 100 hours.
Just like you darn liberals don't care at all about spending the money of someone else. The tax bill that may/may not pass is a joke, but I guess thats okay because in your eyes it doesn't matter its not your money. Its not good enough to waste 800 Billion in a tax bill, but you also have to waste 1.3 trillion in the budget
Janet... #1 I am not a liberal. I am someone who looks at where we are, what our options are, and before making a decision I look at the alternatives.
I don't blindly vote for someone because they have either a R or D next to them. I don't listen to the media and accept what they say as gospel. In fact, I know FOX NO News spews everything but the truth and at this time I have tuned out Keith Olbermann because I don't care about his views on current topics.
How about you?
Now that sounds like a plan! See you over at the Dew Drop Inn tomorrow night... I'm buying! ;0)
Oh and I've tuned out Keith as well at least for awhile - who would think the self-proclaimed Socialist Lawrence O'Donnell would be the only evening anchor @ MSNBC who didn't hit the third rail?
Janet, funny that you blame liberals when its the repubs that have earmarks in that budget, they were called on it too by the press which of course they strategically avoided answering the questions directly as to why they oppose earmarks in the bill when they have millions of dollars of ear marks themselves.
Its easy to point the finger at someone else as to blame and ignore ones own guilt in the same accusation that they throw about others. Republicans are great at doing that.
I agree Feisty. I have switched to watching Larry O'Donnell as well. He doesn't have guests on that are just trying to sell a book. Olbermann is just trying to please the left-wing nutjobs who are just as bad as the right-wing tea baggers. In fact, at the moment he has gone so far off the rail, he is agreeing with the wicked witch of Wasilla.
No Janet liberals understand that you get nothing for free. The social programs are paid for by everybody. That's why they want the Bush tax cuts to sunset. Our government is not getting enough tax revenue for the programs that we have implemented. The wealthy pay too little versus their wealth, and the poor don't make enough money to be included in income tax. It's unfortunate that the brunt of the taxes are paid for by individuals making around 100K a year. Certain spending definitely needs to be looked out, but more importantly so does our tax structure.
Ramboet, you are a bleeding heart liberal no matter what you say or maybe you are more of a socialist like O'Donnell. You say you consider where we are and what our options are before making a decision. Well in the case of this Omnibus appropriations bill the best option is to trash can it. Congress can pass a continuing resolution for 45 or 60 days and then let the new congress pass a budget. You are aware that Obama has not submitted a budget since becoming president. In March 09 the democratic controlled congress passed a Omnibus appropriations bill, two years and not one budget as of now. Remember President Obama in Mar 09 saying that we would not accept anymore Omnibus appropriations or any other bill with ear marks and he would veto them. Why don't Obama call Harry Reid and say if you do not delete all ear marks I will veto the bill? Why won't the democrats agree to a continuing resolution until the new congress is sworn in? Why does every bill that Obama wants has to be held until the end of the year? Congress and the president knew the tax bill was expiring for years, but never took action. START has been in congress since Apr with no action but now it's an emergency and must pass before the end of the year. DADT has been kicked down the road since Obama promised he would repeal it, now it's a year end emergency. Remember the healthcare bill was a year end emergency. Pass a continuing resolution, pass the damn tax extension bill w/extended unemployment insurance and get congress to hell out of Washington.
its impossible to pass any bills if one party says NO to everything that is the reason we are in this mess
its time for the dems to start saying NO
if you trash can everything like the teabaggers and the right wing whackos want in there quest to see this president and our country fail you get what is before you now
Whore House Harry already folded. It will be stop gap until next year.
You libs are real good about blaming republicans for everything and leaving out all the crap that the dems do. The dems are just as bad, if not worse and yet you make the statement above. You conveniently forget the videos of Franks, Dodd and others who helped crash the economy and put all the blame on republicans. The dems are still re-writing history to try and blame everyone but themselves when in reality, it's both parties. They still refuse to listen to the majority of americans and Nov 2 was just the beginning. Hard for you libs to accept.
This man really needs to go home. And take Sarah Palin with him
Which home?
They can go to Alaska and watch Russia from Palin's porch!
It's evident that Harry can be bought but if that's the best that can be bought we're in real trouble.
It's evident that Harry can be bought but if that's the best that can be bought we're in real trouble.
proamerica-1148973
It's evident that Harry can be bought but if that's the best that can be bought we're in real trouble.
Study Confirms That Fox News Makes You Stupid!!!
Fox News viewers are significantly more misinformed than consumers of news from other sources. What’s more, the study shows that greater exposure to Fox News increases misinformation.
http://www.alternet.org/media/149193/study_confirms_that_fox_news_makes_you_stupid
==============================================
proamerica-1148973 you need to lay off your "disrespectful” tone
Harry Reid had a name for people like you: “hypocrite"
But, you can all look up in the dictionary yourself, I bet if you went to ‘S’ in the dictionary and find ‘stupid,’ under that would be people like Tea Baggers.
Wow I thought S was for former Democratic presidents who started the sub prime mortgage mess to start with. I guess poor old slobbering Barney should be included too.
Wow, you tell proamerican to lay off the disrespectful tone and then make a statement like this. Can you spell "Hypocrite". And you had to do it in bold letters to. Guess thats to show everyone how important and smart your statement is. Typical lib.
ROTFLMAO.
And thus begins McCain's 2012 campaign. Yes I know he's 137 years old, but he doesn't look a day over 103.
This omnibus bill was assembled by 12 different Congressional Subcommittees. Republicans on every single one of those committees provided input as to what was going into this bill. And the bill is exactly at the target amount that Minority Leader McConnell demanded several months ago during the original appropriations framework discussion ($1.1 trillion).
And NOW, at the 11th hour, they're rending their garments over the cost of the bill? A bill, I might add, that Senators McCain and McConnell, along with other champions against "wasteful spending" like Senators Ensign, Graham and Grassley, have slipped in earmarks of their own?
The hypocrisy knows no bounds.
I guess "wasteful spending" is defined as "any spending that isn't going to my state".
They wouldn't be doing it during the 11 th hour if the Democrats would have tried before the election. They didn't have a clue that they would lose that bad. Now they have to hurry and get it done before the next congress. I guess Harry will just have to wait now, he pulled the bill from the floor.
Well imagine that... We could pork up the bill to hit the $1.1T number exactly on the nose... This tells me we could eliminate a lot of bacon and bring the budget bill-oh wait, that's right, it's not a budget bill, we don't want to have to actually pass one of those because it would be too out in the open and debatable- omnibus bill to more reasonable amount for necessary spending. A billion saved is a billion earned after all....
I did not vote for McCain or for Obama because they are both headed in the same direction. I voted third party out of conscience. I feel clean!
What were these clowns watching on TV on election night? Clearly it was not the news shows. What a bunch of asses.
The American people deserve to know what's in the bill even if the idiots we sent to represent us don't read it. I applaud their efforts to have the bill read aloud. If nothing else, it will make people understand where our money is going.
I called the offices of DeMint and McCain to tell them I appreciate their doing so and support them from afar. I was told in both calls that the phones were ringing off the hook with people saying the same thing.
The two major parties have nothing to offer but tragedy and ruin.
I voted LIBERTARIAN
"The American people deserve to know what's in the bill even if the idiots we sent to represent us don't read it. I applaud their efforts to have the bill read aloud. If nothing else, it will make people understand where our money is going."
Oh, please. You really think ANYONE is actually going to watch the clerk of the Senate read a 2,000 page bill?
If you (or anyone else) want to know what's in the bill, the bill draft is available on the U.S. Senate's website. Has been for days.
Joe DaVoter
I did not vote for McCain or for Obama because they are both headed in the same direction. I voted third party out of conscience. I feel clean!
I called the offices of DeMint and McCain to tell them I appreciate their doing so and support them from afar. I was told in both calls that the phones were ringing off the hook with people saying the same thing.
Was that a recording?
Who the heck cares who you voted for. The point is this bill has been available to read for MONTHS.
Then why are we only hearing about it this week, if its been available to read for months? Why did the Democrats wait until the lame-duck session to bring it to a vote? I'm not sure which party is more corrupt, but from what I've seen and heard over the past two years, there is no contest the Democrats have won. I cannot believe a word that comes from President Obama, and both Pelosi and Reid. In my opinion they are all anti-american as everything they have proposed has taken away our freedoms and liberties, as they want government to control. our lives.
You nuts want the bill read when the bill is available for you on the congress web site. January will tell who is for the spending bill and who was against cuts. I gurantee that the repubs will have a song and dance when it comes to sepnding cuts in January. McCain needs to take his meds before he comes on the floor. He is a disgrace!!!!
McCain is an incredulous fool. He has no beliefs and his values sway with the issue. No pork for Arizona!
I guess no $30 billion in tax breaks for the Walmart family either....so sad, huh
repubs stalled all year on every bill proposed and now they've got the nerve to be mad because they can't go on vacation (again) for Christmas. Heck they've been on vacation all year...and as far as the bill, it's not like they couldn't, it's just another stall tactic on the republicans side. And no the repubs didn't win nothing....Obama knew what he was doing all along....the plan is working just like Obama wanted it too...and repubs had the nerve to slip in more earmarks then the democrats....
Ya Toyota, only you and Obama knew of the plan!!! LOL You're a sheep.........
in case you hadnt noticed Obama has taken SEVERAL vacations this year seems like everytime you turn around he is on vacation again nice to know we are paying him to relax
Don't forget the second Air Force plane to fly the dog on vacation too.....What unbelievable gaul and contempt for the American taxpayer.
John McCain has spent most of his career hiding the truth about the 600+ prisoners left behind in Vietnam in the name of political expediency. What difference does it make what he thinks now?
http://amconmag.com/article/2010/jul/01/00010/
I would love to see McCain get elected and then have the Vietnamese government release any remaining prisoners from our war with them. That would provide more entertainment than Bill Clinton's trouble with Monica.
(I would also like to see the surviving prisoners returned.)
JEM-1989317
I would love to see McCain get elected and then have the Vietnamese government release any remaining prisoners from our war with them. That would provide more entertainment than Bill Clinton's trouble with Monica.
(I would also like to see the surviving prisoners returned.)
John McCain brings POW Supporter to Tears with his Anger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX6-UbHFBdI&feature=more_related
@
Spotts1701: In the interest of accuracy, I want to "fact-check" your partially correct statement: "A bill, I might add, that Senators McCain and McConnell, along with other champions against "wasteful spending" like Senators Ensign, Graham and Grassley, have slipped in earmarks of their own?"
According to yesterday's Atlanta Constitution-Journal "Jamie Dupree's Washington Insider", McCain, Feinggold, Kyl, DeMint, Coburn, McCaskill, Johans, LeMieux, Manchin, Coons, and Kirk all had ZERO earmarks. Because I'm still new, I cannot post the URL, but it's searchable.
McConnell had 35, Ensign had 20, Graham has 27, and Grassley had 86.
The Mississippi senators, Cochran and Wicker, had the most in this bill with 230 and 199 respectively.
Zero, eh? Doesn't sound at all like what the uber-left would want us to believe.
Could this guy get any more pathetic? He needs to be sent off to Leisure World where he can wyle away the hourse playing shuffle board or something, he can't read it himself he'd have to take to many depends breaks!
I would have liked to see the senate Democrats vote in their original tax plan, the one passed by the house. No, they didn't have sixty votes. They should have used reconciliation, the same way the Bush tax cuts were enacted in the "aughts".
Yeah, the Republicans would have screamed bloody murder. Who cares.
Or if not, let them expire and publish the names of every sitting member of congress who voted for the Bush tax cuts the first time around. They are the folks who voted to raise taxes on EVERYONE on January 1st. They did it when they voted for cuts which ended on that date.
Fiddling while Rome burns. None of these creeps gives a rat's behind about the country; only about their own pockets and prestige.
good for john the old goat now he can spend christmas in DC
'That's what the repubs get for stalling on all the bills. There game is so transparent...
What does that mean? Is their game transparent? Maybe you mean transparency, maybe not, maybe it's the "Plan", you know the plan you and Obama only know?? LOL
"There game is so transparent"
Are these guys idiots? Can't they read. Like they are going to sit there and listen. Post the damn thing on the internet (I bet it is already there) and whoever wants to read it can. Nobody is going to sit in front of their TV and listen to a bunch of boring old men read. This is past stupid. All of these guys need to GO. Waste our money. Have you ever seen Senators speak on TV, the Senate is usually practically empty - the Senators are all out having face time to TV or attending their fund raising fuctions. They must think we really are stupid and if we keep falling for thier lame brain actions. WE ARE.
Why do media types like Strickland not mention the fact that many of the "earmarks' are preposed by republicans.
I noticed faux noise didn't mention many of the earmarks were proposed by republicans either, they are too busy gloating that they some how won this fight.
IF YOU WANT TO HEAR THE TRUTH..... WATCH MSNBC. THE PLACE FOR FACTUAL POLITICS.
Yes they did mention earmarks by Repbulicans as well, I heard and saw it myself. If you are going to post-try posting in reality not wishful thinking.
I can't remember...has McFossil read all the other bills that have come up in the senate?
Hes pretty much in the same boat as any medicare card carrying teabagger complaining about government run healtcare and spending...where were you before or are you all rip van winkles and just woke up after years of republican spending and trillions in new debt for our children and grandchildren?
I feel that many of the Conservatives are getting the message, that we/me are sick and tired of the endless spending going on. And they better. Also, the rest of these lame duck & current Libs & Conservatives better pull their collective heads out, or we/me will get people in who get the EFN message. So whine all you want Libs. We/Me deserve to have that read, so everyone hears and understands it. The EFN Liberal media never lets anyone know the hidden crap you Libs pile onto every freaking bill you present. GET IT?
I find it interesting that virtually ALL of the posts are by folks trying to criticize the various pols but very, very, few address the issue of what they are actually voting on. Face it, the average IQ in the U.S. is approximately 100. Since that distribution is gaussian (remember the bell curve?) that means that a full 50% of the U.S. population is in possession of a less than average IQ. From the lack of meaningful discussion here, it would seem that most (not necessarily all) of those of less than average IQ are posting. In and of itself this does not constitute a problem. The problem arises when those people are encouraged to vote, and they sometimes do.
And check out C-span & see how many Hypocrits (republicans) actually stick around to listen to the reading of the Start Treaty
It appears that Mr. McCain should be barking at the people on his side of the isle. Many of the 23 Republican senators that have earmarks in this bill will vote against it knowing it will pass so they can then say they voted against earmarks. In the meantime, the earmarks remain. Same shiat, different bill.
To see how has earmarks in the bill, Republicans and Dems alike-
http://dailycaller.com/2010/12/16/senators-vote-to-ban-earmarks-_-then-grab-them-2/
Wouldn't shock me - there's a pretty good list floating around of Republicans who voted against the stimulus, but then took credit for jobs and/or funding in their District/state provided by that same stimulus.
There's also a list floating around of folks who voted against the Affordable Care Act, but then had their hand out for money from that same bill.
Yes, read it but make sure Mr. McCain and all the Republican senators stay on the senate floor the entire time. Don't forget to highlight all the Republican earmarks so they are duly noted by the Fox-viewing Tea Party members. This nonsense has got to END!! Don't they have staff members who are supposed to read the bills for them?
Mcain ... If he wants it read, he should have to read it himself. Harry reid should kick the %%$#@ out of him and make him "Read the Darn Bill"
YEs Jay Smith, why have the democrats know what is going on now. They haven't for the last 2 years. They just vote as the leadership and the White House tell them to.
varmit you are confused. the republicans vote how their leadership tells them. that's why they have every senator vote the same way. you can't heard the dems. they have people voting against the party all the time. do you live in an alternate universe? please get your facts staright. you look foolish.
exactly dji....the republicans don't know which way they want to vote. One day there for something and the next day they aren't even when it's their own ideas. Like the health care mandate. This mandate was a "republican" contribution to the health bill, now they are fighting in court to have it taken out of the healthcare bill. They don't know which way their wind blows. All I see is- if the bill helps middle class people the republicans will always vote or be against it....I hope the republicans enjoy spending there Christmas time in DC instead of being at there posh resorts, it's not like they deserve a vacation anyway, they haven't done anything usefull all year...