Why is EVERY piece of legislation a PORK, SPENDING and REGULATION - FEST?

Voters need to listen carefully IDENTIFY the spendthrift leftists and VOTE THEM ALL OUT both RINOS and DEMS

HELL0 we are BROKE you CRIMINALS hard working citizens WANT SMALLER GOVERNMENT and MUCH LESS SPENDING

Where is the "change we can believe in?"

Right on Madison, this is no time for earmark spending projects and tax cuts. It's time to show some fiscal responsibility.

Good for Van Hollen! All too often, Washington passes laws by adding wasteful practice to wasteful practice until all the pigs are full.

Well I gues s the "pigs" menitoned by COMMON SENSE are the Democrats becuase they are the ones loading this bill up with all kinds of pork like NASCAR and Honey producer payoffs, etc etc. Van Hollen has already ceded keeping the current tax structure in place and is now arguing for a change to the death tax provisions. I hope the family farm owners (or other small businesses) whose relatives want to continue the businesses when the ownerxs die by having to sell off 35 percent (or 36.5 percent if the Democrats have their way) of the farm assets to pay this double tax are really satisified that the Democrats really are concerned about them? Incredible!

What double tax? If you didn't earn it and you get it for free, then it's income and taxable. let all the tax cuts expire.

The funny thing is that not one Democrat has mentioned the unfair percentages that will be given to the rich as cuts versus the percentages that will be givien to the poor.

The rich will get a 10% percent tax cut if they make at least $1 million dollars which = $104,000.

And the poor will get a measely 2% tax cut which = $1,000 for those who ear $50000.
2% tax cut which = $2,000 for those who earn $100,000.

for those of us who fall in this catergory you should not be delighted.
You should not be happy for this is a slap in the face.
why has this not been brought to many of our attention?
If it was understood by the majority of tax payers this bill would not even make it out of the Senate door.

For this reason alone this bill should not be passed and that is outside of the fact that nobody is saying how they are going to pay for it.
When I don't have enough money to pay for what I need to do guess how I handle it???
I go without!!!!

Where is the "change we can believe in?"

Playing basketball.....

Peel-Layer,

If the tax cuts do expire, then the lowest percentage base right now, will go from 10% to 15%, which means those people will pay an extra 5% more on their salaries.

But lets look at the rates for 2011 without the extensions.

Single-0 to $35,020 & Married up to $70,040 will pay 15%

Single-$25,021 to $84,872 & married from $70,041 to $141,419 will pay 28%

Single--up to $177,006 & married up to $215,528 will pay 31%

Single--up to $384,860 & married up to $384,860 will pay 36%

While both groups over that will pay 39%

But even more, capital gains taxes will go from 15% to 20% for the upper part, while the lowest tax brackets will get hit from 0 to 10% increases.

They are doing away with the 25% bracket if the extensions are not passed.

So the poor will see an increase of 5% on income taxes and 10% on capital gains taxes. So in simple math, they would save about 15% in total taxes.

What you should be doing is telling the government to "do without" and cut spending.

There are plenty of pigs of every stripe.

Sooooooeeeyyyy!!!!!

Sorry Chris Van Hollen, I forgot to send you the memo. MEMO: It's a done deal.

Fed Up Senior - FYI - If there is a lower threshhold, family business and farms can take advantage of paying the tax over period of 10 - 15 years at a very low rate (about 2%) so the families don't have to liquidate the farm/busines at a fire sale. Not everyone is told about this safety net. Also, there tax paid is on the FMV of the property, which is usually discounted because a privately held business has limited buyers and gets a "lack of marketability" discount, which can range from 10 - 40% in many cases. So, if you have a $5M business, the actual value could drop in between 3 and 4.5 M. Also, anyone with a business in this range, should be spending a few dollars on the front end to do some estate/succession planning to save several more dollars on the back end (Penny wise and dollar foolish is one of the biggest mistakes I see as a practitioner).

Thank you.

Fed up Senior - another tea party bogus issue - These aren't Ma and Pa Kettle Farms that tax would have to be paid on - Average cost per acre in Iowa is about $4000 and average farm size is 333 acres. For $10 million exemption you could pass on 2500 acres (assuming no estate and tax planning as mentioned by Estate CPA) before you paid a dime in tax - almost 8 times the size of the average farm. In Kansas average cost per acre is about $1700 and average farm size is 705 acres. For $10 million you could pass on 5880 acres (once again, assuming no estate and tax planning) before paying on dime of tax - almost 8 1/2 times the size of the average farm. With planning could probably add at least 50% to that figure. The estate tax - which should be called the Anti-Aristocracy Tax is not going to kill the family farmer.

Takes one to know one.

Paul you need to take your conspiracy theory pushing azz somewhere and take a long nap.

You have turned out to be one of the biggest fools on FR.

I don't think your amatuer butt want to go back and forth with me.

Kick Rocks and be gone trick.......

Yellow-cake from NIGER, please.

You embrace lies, and seek to hide the truth. You're an impedement to progress.

So now you want to use a frikken euphemism . Why don't you just put the other G in the word. You are on here throwing that damn word around but if one of these white boys call you by that word, you would be crying to FR.

You make yourself look ignorant and silly without anyone else's help. Your imagination has guided your life for too long.

If I'm an impedement to progresss, I guess that makes you impotent to reality. Ole' soft azz ..... Yeah, I can play that game too. I fade trifflin' clowns like you daily.

Do you believe the Yellowcake from NIGER, lie?

He probably started it.

Should be a simple bill?

NO,,,we didn't !

The november election message was that "The rich has declared time and time again that they have the money and power to buy the government. Though not necessarily using their own money, but the shareholders' money. And that the republicans will sell the country to the highest bidders! Regardless of the bidders' nationalities"

The second messge from the november election is that "We hav esolid proof that the intelligence level of the general public has gone way below the international level. It's lagging behind most of the developing countries. They simply pefer lies from facts!"

Are you serious? Do you think the tax giveaway to the wealthiest people in this country is a good idea? Well, it is just stupid because these people do not re-invest in our economy. They keep the money in their investments; while the middle class has to spend their money just to survive. A tax cut for the middle class and below is appropriate; it is not appropriate to give millionaires tax cuts. They make their own tax cuts through shelters. Wake up

What is unacceptable is not that the tax rates (they are not cuts) maybe shouldn't be continued, that UC shouldn't be extended, and so on. They should have been stand alone if anything. The GOP should not have said we will not work on anything until this is agreed to, that is where the problems started. They spent 2 years saying NO to no matter what was addressed. Anyone who thinks that this has been bipartisan needs a check up. I don't agree with either side, but ever since Obama was elected, right or wrong on his views he has been treated like a second class citizen, and he is a citizen. He should have taken a lead from George and Dick and as Cheney said when he was addressed that the majority of Americans didn't agree with him. He said "SO !". Seems to rhyme with NO. This country is so divided and full of hateful people that it has become disgusting. Having different opinions is one thing, being hateful is wrong. It's also pretty easy to call each other names when just filling in boxes. Tis the Season, isn't it.

ARealist, finally a professional post, with no hatred or swearing.

An Independent you are on point!!!
Why don't the rest of these people get it???
Even on here Madison from NY is talking about some socialist stuff and pork.

How in the heck do most people on here who do not make $1,000,000 per year agree with the tax deal.

Let me say this again!!!

If you don't make $1,000,000/yr then this break won't really benefit you.

$1,000,000/yr will now get you $104,000 in extra tax savings!!!

$100,000 or less will only get you $1,000 to $2,000 in extra savings.

WE DO NOT WANT THIS BILLL IT IS NOTHING IN IT FOR THE MIDDLE CLASSS!!!!

GIVE US A TEN % TAX BREAK LIKE THOSE MAKING $1,000,000

WHY DON"T YOU FOOLS GET IT?????

We have learned from both history and life experience that the so-called "God" is never fair. If he really created people, then why are some born handicapped and some are born healthy? Some get away with murder and some suffer constantly. Hence we have "government". It's the government's job to make sure that we live in a fair society! It's the government's job to make sure that everyone is treated "fairly". As the forefather claimed, "All men are created equal!" in the eyes of the law.

Once again Independent you are on point.

I have only read two of your posts and both were at a level of understanding that only 99% of people wish they were at. Keep up the good work and continue to push for right and fairness where ever you see imbalance or wrong.

OUCH!!!!

quite a little bit of anger within the ranks of the Democrat party

Mixed Bag - I am hoping a few more will be missing after the 2012 election...

Forget the Democrats!!!

COWARDS!!!!

Madison from NY is a constant source of BS, plain and simple.

Anyone who repeats the party line of either side is a source of BS.

The inheritance tax was well known to these folks as they built their wealthy estates. It wasn't dropped on their heads two days before they died. There are hundreds of steps which can be taken before your death to protect your estate from the "death tax". If you were smart enough to "earn" your wealth, you should be smart enough to protect your estate. Get a grip.

Paul

You are correct, to a point, in your assertions that there are steps to take to protect your estate from the "death tax", unless of course the estate is a business or a farm where the value is really the businesses, good will, the land, equipment and customers.

If you leave a farm valued at $10 Million you your son, even under this compromise estate package deal, he needs to come up with $1,750,000 in cash to pay the taxes on the inheritance.

Most farmers and small businesses (and the associated families) cannot come up with any where near that amount of cash.

So it is not a matter of being smart enough

It is a matter of this not being fair (taxes already paid on the income) and it is a reason that small businesses are disappearing, bein sold to forgiegn or lasrge cororate interests

Absolutely, Paul...! But. There is a category that makes such planning and legal manipulation of ones potential legacy: Small/Medium business sole owners and farmers (especially farmers). Farmer owns 1000 acres valued at $5.5M. The inheritence tax could force the selling of the farm to pay what's due. I agree that inhereted stocks, bonds, personal possessions should be taxed - this only lessens a windfall. But if the tax almost by definition mean s the break-up of a viable business..... there should be an exception.....

Sorry for repeating Robert.... He slipped in before I finished typing. Just consider my comment one more vote....

How many farmers do you know who have a farm worth $10million? If it is worth that much, I guarantee it is a corporate owned farm. I say exempt the family owned farm and tax the corporate owned businesses who are buying up all the farmland.

We should never have implemented an Estate Tax - what would our fore fathers have thought of that idea? Can you see Adams, Jefferson or even Madison debating this idea - $ell no! Nobody ever considers how the country was built and what it stands for - it certainly doesn't stand for figure out how to apply another tax...to pay for some entitlement program!

SRM, A farm can be worth that much in land value alone.

Frankly, I hope the tax legislation is defeated ~ and I generally vote Democrat. Its time we knuckled down and faced the enormous debt that is strangling us. It doesn't matter who drove up that debt. It has to be paid and we can never "cut" enough to offset it nor can we "produce" ourselves out of it. A combination of spending reduction coupled with increased revenue (tax) can go a long way in stemming the financial hemorrhage that is bleeding us dry. Under the "tax cuts" plan, it is projected that we will soon not generate enough revenue to pay the interest on that debt. Raising taxes during a financial downturn no more guarantees negative results than granting tax breaks to the rich will create jobs. We have almost a decade of proof that the latter is not assured.

Right on Just me-1556060

The rich, perhaps, have another accounts outside U.S.A. They don't need to move.

Big B,

The 5th amendment only protects double jeopardy in criminal cases, not taxation:)

Of course aren't income taxes criminal in some cases:)

BigBear, it seems almost criminal in this case though doesn't it? It is like penalizing someone for being able to make more than they can spend in a lifetime. I thought our reps were supposed to be smart. Savings and investment are tools for money creation.

Big B,

Have you looked at some of the people that have been elected in recent years? They are only as smart as their funding will allow them to be.

I wish they would make every member of congress sit down and do their own taxes, as a requirement to serve this country. See if they can make sense of it. But that won't happen either.

Of course, an estate tax is criminal, just another way to take more and give more.

They are so concerned about the deficit then they should forgo their 2011 raise especially since they are screwing everyone else.

Once the estate is broken up and/or distubrited to whomever it becomes taxable income.

Are you new to this world? The estate tax is not some surprise they spring on your estate after you are gone. You spend your whole life aware of its existence. You have tax attorneys helping you minimize your estate's exposure the whole time you are building it. What is the difficulty here? We could go about it differently and simply tax all income over a certain level, say $5 million at 92%, $100 million at 95%, and $500 million at 99%. Check out the top marginal tax rate in 1958.

Why should the government get anymore of a person's estate after they are dead?

Wouldn't money handed down to another member of a family be considered income? Therefore, taxed as income.

And of course, having tax attorney's only apply to those who can afford them, not the bottom 98% of the people you leftist love to tax even more.

I am surprised that we have not had more revolts than we have had. Especially since one group of people, our government, seems to think it is okay to keep taking from people, just to give back to others in another form.

Lets put this thing in perspective. How many who die leave an estate with a net worth of a million dollars ~ ~ or more? Paul is spot on correct ~ this is not a surprise dropped on people at the death of the estate's principal. If steps haven't been taken to shield assets when the principal is alive, then reckless management should not be rewarded after death. The argument that estate taxes should be eliminated altogether is not without considerable merit but since that is not the case in law nor has it been for decades, failing to protect known assets from levy is inexcusable.

Hooray finally a sensible person.

The tax is no surprise. You know it is there the whole time you are building your estate. Farming operations, not owned by BIG AG, should be exempted in some reasonable way.

Agree Paul about small business/family farming "not owned by BIG AG" or large corporations.

Yes, I know the tax is there.... it's just a sticking point in anyones craw that's worked hard their whole lives and already paid taxes on that nest egg. To think that Congress (people that spend someone elses money as though they are owed and entitled to it), want to dip into that a second time just to pi$$ some more around.

A complete simplification/make over of our tax codes need to be done. PLUS - a 28th amendment for a balanced budget.

Actually Jim

The easiest way is to just be dirt poor and except government handouts for everything and you won't have to worry about it at all.

Around the turn of the previous century there was a rise in corporat mergers which concentrated a large amount of wealth in the hands of a few businessmen and their families. Along with such wealth came great political power ( does this sound familiar?) President Theodore Roosevelt (a Republican) advocated an estate tax and a graduated income tax as tools to address inequalities in wealth. The fear of the day was that the United States would become a plutocracy. This is exactly what is happening today with the trend towards ever shrinking taxes on the upper income and wealthy individuals and the corporations. We need to understand the necessity of these taxes to prevent the wealthy from taking over the country and pauperizing the middle class.

We could slip back to the middle ages, when the wealthy didn't pay any taxes. They actually collected them from the surfs who had the privilege of working their land.

Agreed. Only when you have a rate and never pay it, (loads of ways to get around them) then it means nothing.

Why do people think when someone dies they owe the rest of us something?

They don't, Jim. Certainly not the deceased. Characterizing the estate tax in that light is neither a fair representation of the tax code nor is it a logical application of it. The estate's principal did in fact pay all taxes and fees on the property when it was his exclusive asset. With the death of that principal, the estate becomes "property" which is willed, transferred, or in some manner given to another. It becomes income for that recipient notwithstanding its history or source. The same would apply if the principal purchased the estate and still owed for half of it, but received a gift of cash, negotiable assets, etc, to pay off the loan/mortgage/lien. It is income and subject to taxation. There is a bit of irony in this argument, regardless of one's position in it. Those who most often rail against others who project a "sense of entitlement" are among the first to defend theirs when it is threatened. They also find new and special names for that entitlement ~ ~ ~ ~ like "estate," "family farm." "family business."

harryo

how many ultra liberals on welfare or other public doel programs are creating jobs?

if the business owners (you say rich) don't create jobs who will?

have you ever worked for a poor man?

the right (you say coward conservatives for some reason) are trying to compromise and get things going for everyone, if the liberals say no now, what is the next step?

have you ever worked for a poor man?

Oh Hell yes, I have. Not a day went by without this occupant of a five bedroom, four bath home overlooking a lake and golf course ~ who drove to work in his Cadillac Coupe de Vlle ~ didn't stand before me or other members of the staff in his Hart-Shafner & Marx suit to tell us how financially ruined he was because of oppressive taxes and government regulation. He was majority owner of a radio station that was valued at more than $16-million dollars, virtually unencumbered. You can't imagine how that distressing news unsettled his $8-dollar an hour staff. But he wasn't alone. I've found hundreds just like him, all whining about their unfortunate plight in life as they set around a table at the country club drinking the finer Scotch. It must be Hell to have to live that way.

Do you people think this is some kind of wise question?

People take on a great deal of debt to get their start ups going. They may appear to be rich, and may soon be out from under their debt obligations, but they have to convert their stock holdings into "cash" before you can asess whether they end up rich or poor.

C McCoy

The "middle class" is paying a very small percentage of the freight today and adding to the total tab will not increase the amount they pay (since tax rates are staying the same and all the deductions remain).

So your assertion that the middle class will pay for this addition to the deficit is wrong.

If this tax rate extension is not passed, the "middle class" will suffer more then those earning $250K and more, so I fail to see how it is in the interests of the "people" that these Democrats represent to defeat the compromise.

You ultra liberals must give up ideology in favor of getting things done that benefit the American people, the conservatives swallowed some things in this compromise that they do ideologically support in order to make progress.

I heard a report on one of those left leaning, pinko Communist, liberal network news outlets about two weeks ago that the average worth among the 535-members of congress is just a few dollars short of $1-million each. I believe the richest of the lawmakers (a Democrat) has a worth of $300-million dollars and those who have been in congress for more than ten years all shake out at over $10-million on average. Now with that kind of personal wealth and the influence it generates, tell me how there is great concern for that welder in Ohio, that plumber in Arizona, the nurse in Arkansas, that funeral director in Texas, or the cop in Virginia. You simply have to admire their stage presence and acting ability, but in their heart they think and act like millionaires because ~ ~ ~ ~ that's what they are.